31001|30977|2014-05-25 22:35:21|opuspaul|Re: Priorities|The Hallberg Rassy I saw wasn't cored.  It was an older 352 model.  I was surprised how much damage was done to it.An Austrian guy then told me a story about 10 boats were knocked over in a storm while on the hard stand in Raiatea.   2 of them were Hallberg Rassys and sustained damage while the other 8 boats were OK.  He said they spend too much money on advertising and fancy woodwork when they build them and not enough on quality of the hulls.  This is real world versus what they tell you in the yachting magazines.   They are considered highly desirable but every time I look at a Hallberg Rassy now, I think of fluff.Hunters are terrible boats.  I liken the hulls to a blown up plastic bag, propped open and stiffened with cardboard.   I know there are a lot of them and they have made a few long trips but there is no way I would sail on one offshore.  A Beneteau is a Rolls Royce compared to one of them.  The rudder post on my friends Hunter Vision 41 was made from aluminum.  Just ridiculous.  They apparently fall off all the time.   The new improved replacement is stainless steel and supposed to be much better.    No kidding! Some designers and builders are pretty stupid and never learn from past mistakes.  The newer Hanse yachts also have alloy rudder posts.  I saw a brand new one with a faulty and leaking rudder post.  Although it was only a few months old, it was eaten up by corrosion.   If you look on the net, there are a lot of people with a lot of problems.| 31002|30977|2014-05-26 16:46:31|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Trismus, a sistership to Moitessier's Joshua hit Rangiroa and spent ten years on the reef before the locals floated her off and used her for shipping coconuts around the lagoon. Steel hulls last so long that  they mark them on the chart. Non metal boats only last a matter of hours.| 31003|30977|2014-05-26 16:57:28|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|With the tidal differences between the NZ west  coast and the east coast, a which flows  around North Cape it can be extremely rough in moderate weather. Its no place to be in 70 knots. The steady procession of highs crossing the Tasman, start by giving one strong southerlies. I hove to in one south of the Kermadecs. As the high moves east ,the wind clocks around to SE then east then NE. Then a couple of days of variables then the proccess begins again. I remember heading  north towards Fiji, meeting  only Northerly headwinds. A check with WWV  confirmed  a low had formed between Fiji and Vanuatu. So I headed west towards Noumea. As predictable, the wind shifted east then SE.Leaving Tonga ,one can time these  highs , but he formation of  a low west of Fiji is much harder to  predict| 31004|30977|2014-05-26 17:05:18|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|The first 36 I built pounded for 16 days in up to 12 ft surf on the west coast of Baja, and was pulled off thru a quarter mile of similar surf, with no major damage. Viski , another 36 ft brentboat pounded across 300 yards of Suva coral in big surf, with no major damage . Sundays Child , another 36 ft brentboat pounded on a lee shore  in Mozambique channel in hurricane winds for several days, with no major damage.You can  do all the creative accounting you want , to make plastic sound stronger, but your calculations evaporate at  the  first " real life reality check." such as a severe grounding  in severe conditions.| 31005|30977|2014-05-26 17:11:46|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Over dependence on electronics over logic does it again. A friend had his Steel Spray blow ashore in Hilo. Being light ten gauge plate with a lot of framing ,it was badly dented, but not holed in any way. Using a sawzall, he replaced the badly dented plating, then headed for Tonga| 31006|30977|2014-05-26 17:29:48|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|It's this elimination of hard spots next to frames, which gives origami boats their toughness, and resistance to denting and holing, With  nothing  nearby to stretch or bend against, they simply spring back.| 31007|30977|2014-05-27 15:14:06|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Then there are the structural logistics problems. There is no way to get  the structural strength and water tight reliability of attaching a deck, keel and skeg  to the hull, which is even remotely as strong  and reliable as welding. Ditto deck hardware. Hull -deck problems are common on fibreglass, as are leaks anywhere gear  is bolted down. My boats have  a well proven track record of getting thru the surf intact , and remaining intact for  a long time afterwards , something  non metal boats are abysmal at . That ability can save lives, when things go wrong.It takes some experience to realize that. That is why , in Jimmy Cornell's book, "Modern Ocean Cruising", most experienced circumnavigators  definitely showed a strong preference for metal boats.| 31008|30977|2014-05-27 15:27:36|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Another cause of problems in this story is the lack of protection from a proper wheelhouse, leaving sailors totally exposed in an open cockpit ( bad seamanship) Not much  chance of hypothermia, or being washed out of  a good steel wheelhouse. One mentioned that happening. No chance of me being  washed out thru my 6 by 12 inch wheelhouse windows ( it's been  a long time since I was that thin) or the half inch plexi ports breaking ( 25 times the strength of the equivalent thickness of plate glass) .| 31009|30977|2014-05-28 01:09:33|jbsf2004|Re: Priorities|Brent,Great book!.I read it and will re-read it many times until it sinks in.I have Alex's video to.Now, get a welder and a site .I am seeing alot of Lincoln 225 amp AC welders on craigslist fot $100 to $200,Same for used gas torches.Are these worth looking at?.| 31010|30977|2014-05-28 19:14:26|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Lincoln 225 amp welders are great welders. Older ones have such heavy windings, that some don't even need a fan.Used cutting torches are also a good deal. You may have to buy a propane tip for cutting with propane( far cheaper and cleaner than acetylene) The rest of the torch works fine on propane.| 31011|30977|2014-05-28 19:19:13|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Pygmalion, another sistership to Joshua , blew ashore in Spain and was pounded on a lee shore  by up to 80 knot winds for days . After the storm blew itself out, they opened her up and found the bilges dry. A well built steel boat will get you thru the surf  intact, a non metal boat wont.| 31012|30977|2014-05-28 23:50:02|Matt Malone|Re: Priorities| I do not doubt the much greater abrasion resistance of metal giving far more longevity on a lee shore.  That is why a lot of very important things are made of metal.   Certainly when one will be cracked up on a lee shore before the surf subsides, one should take even more extraordinary measures to stay away from them.   Every long distance cruiser I have talked to recommends metal, and some have a fibreglass boat.   They must have a method to compensate, but nothing can remove the uncertainty.  For peace of mind, they recommend metal.  No one plans to get in the surf.  A well made boat, standing a day off and waiting, is safer than a metal one in the rocks and surf.  There are many factors in boats getting onto rocks.   Human factors are a huge ingredient.  Hurrying, or get-home-itis, or the perception that one must be somewhere at a certain time -- that is a big one.   Exhaustion.   Dealing with a crew member debilitated by motion sickness.   Making bad decisions because one is fatigued.   All these are ingredients that might contribute to starting on a path that seems, at that moment, to have less risk as compared to waiting.   I have been in a fat, light, boat at sea, near a hurricane and again off the coast of Ireland.  In both cases, the boat was bobbing and pitching and rolling quite energetically.   I saw how people looked after a relatively short time.   A boat that is smoother in the same conditions will go a long way to reducing the human factors that lead to poor decisions that increase the chance of ending up on the rocks.  Lets not forget this factor.      Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 28 May 2014 16:19:13 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Priorities   Pygmalion, another sistership to Joshua , blew ashore in Spain and was pounded on a lee shore  by up to 80 knot winds for days . After the storm blew itself out, they opened her up and found the bilges dry. A well built steel boat will get you thru the surf  intact, a non metal boat wont. | 31013|31013|2014-05-29 02:56:51|Alex Bar|Professional boatyard|Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. ThanksAlex| 31014|31013|2014-05-29 04:37:56|Hannu Venermo|Re: Professional boatyard| Afaik-No. I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards. Brent will likely know of some. In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure). Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats. The US market == 50% of world yacht markets. Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts. And many yards make alu boats for commercial use. The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China. The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things; -Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible. -Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel. -Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems". -Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger). -Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise". None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power. Ideally, a cruising boat has; -a long waterline rel. to size -robust, simple systems -robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads -cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world -good design in systems related to long term comfort The last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption. Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. Thanks Alex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31015|31013|2014-05-29 17:39:09|Alex Bar|Re: Professional boatyard|Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No. I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards. Brent will likely know of some. In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure). Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats. The US market == 50% of world yacht markets. Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts. And many yards make alu boats for commercial use. The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China. The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things; -Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible. -Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel. -Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems". -Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger). -Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise". None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power. Ideally, a cruising boat has; -a long waterline rel. to size -robust, simple systems -robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads -cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world -good design in systems related to long term comfort The last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption. Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. Thanks Alex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31016|31013|2014-05-29 18:26:16|Matt Malone|Re: Professional boatyard| Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:39:08 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No. I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards. Brent will likely know of some. In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure). Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats. The US market == 50% of world yacht markets. Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts. And many yards make alu boats for commercial use. The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China. The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things; -Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible. -Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel. -Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems". -Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger). -Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise". None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power. Ideally, a cruising boat has; -a long waterline rel. to size -robust, simple systems -robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads -cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world -good design in systems related to long term comfort The last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption. Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. Thanks Alex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31017|31013|2014-05-29 19:20:14|opuspaul|Re: Professional boatyard|The new yacht market is gone unless you are catering to the luxury crowd or catering to people with more dollars than sense.Use boats are so cheap, you can get a boat with all the equipment for a fraction of the cost of a new boat....probably for less than the cost of materials.| 31018|31013|2014-05-29 20:23:35|Matt Malone|Re: Professional boatyard| Absolutely.  If one is willing to go with classic plastic (keep it off the rocks) far less than the cost of the steel for a Brent boat, if you are patient.  It took me 2 years.   If you want to go faster or, steel, probably $25,000-35,000 will get you something within a month or two.   You will have lots of other people's crap to deal with (perhaps literally) but, there will be a lot of things good enough for now too.   Get Brent's book, toss out the crap, add what is absolutely necessary.   Beware of the limitations of your boat.  Have fun.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 29 May 2014 16:20:14 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   The new yacht market is gone unless you are catering to the luxury crowd or catering to people with more dollars than sense.Use boats are so cheap, you can get a boat with all the equipment for a fraction of the cost of a new boat....probably for less than the cost of materials. | 31019|31013|2014-05-30 01:56:05|Alex Bar|Re: Professional boatyard|I really like Brent design and shape, but I don't think it would be suitable for a today production. It's something maybe too classic. I think is perfect for the "do it yourself". But I think a new design could be made using the same construction method.If the origami method is as quick as laying a fiberglass boat (but with no mold investment), this is a huge result itself. The difference is the final material result. No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already finished. A framed one not. AlexAlex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       2014-05-30 0:26 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:39:08 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No. I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards. Brent will likely know of some. In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure). Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats. The US market == 50% of world yacht markets. Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts. And many yards make alu boats for commercial use. The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China. The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things; -Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible. -Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel. -Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems". -Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger). -Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise". None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power. Ideally, a cruising boat has; -a long waterline rel. to size -robust, simple systems -robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads -cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world -good design in systems related to long term comfort The last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption. Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. Thanks Alex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31020|31013|2014-05-30 02:01:37|Alex Bar|Re: Professional boatyard|Sorry, I don't agree, if what you say would be correct nowdays you wouldn't sell anything. Cars, houses, mobiles, forks, glasses. Consumerism wouldn't exist. What is important I think is the idea, the new idea.Alex2014-05-30 1:20 GMT+02:00 opusnz@... [origamiboats] :   The new yacht market is gone unless you are catering to the luxury crowd or catering to people with more dollars than sense.Use boats are so cheap, you can get a boat with all the equipment for a fraction of the cost of a new boat....probably for less than the cost of materials. | 31021|31013|2014-05-30 04:21:14|Hannu Venermo|Re: Professional boatyard|Both You Alex and Mat arre correct (!?), but my point was is that it does not matter, at all, re:hull. A freely-built as in zero-work hours/welding material boat hull still has the same impediments as an origami metal boat. "Systems" cost as in sailboats/cruising motorboats is about 70% of total cost. Half is labour and installation and vendor markup, half is overpriced, generally not-too-good-for-purpose systems cost. So weather the hull is origami or not is irrelevant, from the point of view of a (sail) boat cost. The vast majority of buyers (mostly US buyers) want "systems". The vast majority want "yachts" rather than boats. Yachts are associated with glitter, and shiny bits and wood-and-laquer. Consider an example, 12 m of 40 ft sailboat. Say, 300.000$ yard cost today, new. 1. Hull is about 30-50.000$ in labour and materials. 2. Electronics say 50.000$. 3. Propulsion, piping, tankage and drivetrain 30.000$. 4. Riggging 30.000$. 5. Detailing, fit, finish 30.000$. Thats 190.000$. Say 6.000 hours work, at 15$/hr, 90.000$. Cost 280.000 $. Selling price around 400.000-500.000$. The problem is people *want* 2,4,5 and they want it to be shiny and "yachty". The people who dont want 2,4,5 mostly cannot afford a 200.000$ boat either. A 200.000$ 12m boat is reasonable, if you drop the yachty (branding) bits and unnecessary fluff, glitter and starship electronics. A 120.000 $ 12m boat is doable, with some compromises, if at least 5 are made, indentical. To drive the price down, tooling and a systematic approach is required. This is a one-time upfront cost, that can only be done if some volume is had to spread the cost. Note all above are yard costs, not retail pricing. The yard and builder need to make a profit, everyone needs to eat. This needs to be about 20-30%, at a minimum. On 30/05/2014 07:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones > (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in > finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already > finished. A framed one not. > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31022|31013|2014-05-30 15:06:11|Matt Malone|Re: Professional boatyard| Well, fibreglass and origami are apples and oranges.  The entire point of Brent's origami designs is, no mould, no wooden support frame, very little material is bought that does not end up in the boat.   This is perfect for a one-of home build.   In production, it is all about investment versus production rate.   If a jig makes it faster, they make a jig.   Also, patterns and an assembly line really speed things up.   The biggest difference I think is, an individual, working in the open, there is step up and cleanup, at least to make sure tools do not get rained on.   In a factory, tools are right where they are needed all the time.  The bell rings, people walk to their stations work starts immediately.  By the time they have made 3, there is no uncertainty.  I am sure having Brent on-site for a few days really helps get an orgami off the ground, but, looking at Kim's photo blog shows you a lot of customizing and fitting.   I would think that laying a fibreglass hull into a mould and separating it from the mould would be substantially faster than cutting, pulling, stitching and joining two halves of a steel hull.   But again, apples and oranges.  And neither is a finished hull.    BTW, I am really interest to see how Kim's boat turns out.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 30 May 2014 07:56:02 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   I really like Brent design and shape, but I don't think it would be suitable for a today production. It's something maybe too classic. I think is perfect for the "do it yourself". But I think a new design could be made using the same construction method.If the origami method is as quick as laying a fiberglass boat (but with no mold investment), this is a huge result itself. The difference is the final material result. No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already finished. A framed one not. AlexAlex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       2014-05-30 0:26 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:39:08 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No. I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards. Brent will likely know of some. In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure). Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats. The US market == 50% of world yacht markets. Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts. And many yards make alu boats for commercial use. The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China. The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things; -Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible. -Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel. -Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems". -Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger). -Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise". None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power. Ideally, a cruising boat has; -a long waterline rel. to size -robust, simple systems -robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads -cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world -good design in systems related to long term comfort The last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption. Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. Thanks Alex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31023|31013|2014-05-30 18:19:30|ANDREW AIREY|Professional boatyard|Holland,Poland or,possibly,South Korea would seem to be good bets.The Dutch have been building steel barges and boats for over 100 years.(My 40ft sailing barge was built in 1906,although it was 50ft originally and shortened by 10ft when it came out of trade to improve the sailing qualities).The traditional yachts based on fishing boat practice tend to look a bit angular with leeboards but they do build ones that are a bit more yachty.At least one narrow boat(7ft beam canal boats) builder in the UK has been sourcing hulls in Poland but I've not heard of any yachts.Someone in the UK has been offering professional built Wylo 2's, which is a well proven cruising design for amateur construction,but I don't think that these are likely to be particularly cheap.It will probably be down to the fitting out.Perhaps the best route to go down would be production of the hull only and leave the fitting out to the purchaser.So try South Korea or,more likely,ChinacheersAndy Aireyps If you proportion it to fit in a standard container you could be on a winner  | 31024|31013|2014-05-30 19:45:23|airescooter|Re: Professional boatyard| BTW most tools can be left in the rain without a problem, even the electric tools. Robert   In a message dated 5/30/2014 3:06:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, fibreglass and origami are apples and oranges.  The entire point of Brent's origami designs is, no mould, no wooden support frame, very little material is bought that does not end up in the boat.   This is perfect for a one-of home build.   In production, it is all about investment versus production rate.   If a jig makes it faster, they make a jig.   Also, patterns and an assembly line really speed things up.   The biggest difference I think is, an individual, working in the open, there is step up and cleanup, at least to make sure tools do not get rained on.   In a factory, tools are right where they are needed all the time.  The bell rings, people walk to their stations work starts immediately.  By the time they have made 3, there is no uncertainty.  I am sure having Brent on-site for a few days really helps get an orgami off the ground, but, looking at Kim's photo blog shows yo u a lot of customizing and fitting.   I would think that laying a fibreglass hull into a mould and separating it from the mould would be substantially faster than cutting, pulling, stitching and joining two halves of a steel hull.   But again, apples and oranges.  And neither is a finished hull.    BTW, I am really interest to see how Kim's boat turns out.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 30 May 2014 07:56:02 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard  I really like Brent design and shape, but I don't think it would be suitable for a today production. It's something maybe too classic. I think is perfect for the "do it yourself".But I think a new design could be made using the same construction method.If the origami method is as quick as laying a fiberglass boat (but with no mold investment), this is a huge result itself. The difference is the final material result.No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already finished. A framed one not.Alex Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       2014-05-30 0:26 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:39:08 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard  Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No.I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards.Brent will likely know of some.In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure).Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats.The US market == 50% of world yacht markets.Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts.And many yards make alu boats for commercial use.The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China.The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things;-Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible.-Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel.-Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems".-Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger).-Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise".None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power.Ideally, a cruising boat has;-a long waterline rel. to size-robust, simple systems-robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads-cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world-good design in systems related to long term comfortThe last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption.Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production.ThanksAlex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31025|31013|2014-05-30 21:29:44|Matt Malone|Re: Professional boatyard| I am not sure I would want to use a wet electric hand tool while standing on a steel boat.  Rained on, or stolen.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 30 May 2014 19:45:21 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   BTW most tools can be left in the rain without a problem, even the electric tools. Robert   In a message dated 5/30/2014 3:06:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, fibreglass and origami are apples and oranges.  The entire point of Brent's origami designs is, no mould, no wooden support frame, very little material is bought that does not end up in the boat.   This is perfect for a one-of home build.   In production, it is all about investment versus production rate.   If a jig makes it faster, they make a jig.   Also, patterns and an assembly line really speed things up.   The biggest difference I think is, an individual, working in the open, there is step up and cleanup, at least to make sure tools do not get rained on.   In a factory, tools are right where they are needed all the time.  The bell rings, people walk to their stations work starts immediately.  By the time they have made 3, there is no uncertainty.  I am sure having Brent on-site for a few days really helps get an orgami off the ground, but, looking at Kim's photo blog shows yo u a lot of customizing and fitting.   I would think that laying a fibreglass hull into a mould and separating it from the mould would be substantially faster than cutting, pulling, stitching and joining two halves of a steel hull.   But again, apples and oranges.  And neither is a finished hull.    BTW, I am really interest to see how Kim's boat turns out.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 30 May 2014 07:56:02 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard  I really like Brent design and shape, but I don't think it would be suitable for a today production. It's something maybe too classic. I think is perfect for the "do it yourself".But I think a new design could be made using the same construction method.If the origami method is as quick as laying a fiberglass boat (but with no mold investment), this is a huge result itself. The difference is the final material result.No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already finished. A framed one not.Alex Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       2014-05-30 0:26 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:39:08 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard  Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No.I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards.Brent will likely know of some.In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure).Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats.The US market == 50% of world yacht markets.Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts.And many yards make alu boats for commercial use.The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China.The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things;-Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible.-Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel.-Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems".-Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger).-Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise".None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power.Ideally, a cruising boat has;-a long waterline rel. to size-robust, simple systems-robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads-cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world-good design in systems related to long term comfortThe last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption.Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production.ThanksAlex Posted by: Alex Bar -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31026|31013|2014-05-30 22:27:47|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|The MAIN advantage of Origami boat is that the hull can be erected by ONE person without ANY lifting equipment. My 40 ft hull (just the shell)  weight about 5,000 Lbs. Metal fabricators could not believe their eyes watching me putting it together as well as rotating it just by myself around shell's CoG (to reposition the hull).To lift the hull from the ground for keel installation will require hydraulic jack/s. Can be done by one person as well. >> The entire point of Brent's origami designs is, no mould, no wooden support frame, very little material is bought that does not end up in the boat.   This is perfect for a one-of home build.| 31027|31013|2014-05-30 23:29:00|Aaron|Re: Professional boatyard|My thoughts as for building commerciallytwo dedicated craft persons to cut fit and pull the hull then weld out and trim with wire inside a shop could get the method down to about 200 hrs work not counting the other support who runs down to get the consumables. after that the interior finish is wide open to interpretation, but a basic painted plywood finish should be able to be completed in the next 30 days.so 2 months straight work no days off. maybe after the third or forth boat was completed. cost would be in the $150,000 USI have collected 80% of all of my parts hull is almost ready for painting and foam Customized for me so far cost is $45,000 out of pocket. 7 years later and still working full time helping pay for those don't work. Life is an adventure!Like Gerd posted a long time ago if you want to build a boat build it if all you want is to go sailing go buy one.Aaron  From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 11:06 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Well, fibreglass and origami are apples and oranges.  The entire point of Brent's origami designs is, no mould, no wooden support frame, very little material is bought that does not end up in the boat.   This is perfect for a one-of home build.   In production, it is all about investment versus production rate.   If a jig makes it faster, they make a jig.   Also, patterns and an assembly line really speed things up.   The biggest difference I think is, an individual, working in the open, there is step up and cleanup, at least to make sure tools do not get rained on.   In a factory, tools are right where they are needed all the time.  The bell rings, people walk to their stations work starts immediately.  By the time they have made 3, there is no uncertainty.  I am sure having Brent on-site for a few days really helps get an orgami off the ground, but, looking at Kim's photo blog shows you a lot of customizing and fitting.   I would think that laying a fibreglass hull into a mould and separating it from the mould would be substantially faster than cutting, pulling, stitching and joining two halves of a steel hull.   But again, apples and oranges.  And neither is a finished hull.    BTW, I am really interest to see how Kim's boat turns out.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 30 May 2014 07:56:02 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   I really like Brent design and shape, but I don't think it would be suitable for a today production. It's something maybe too classic. I think is perfect for the "do it yourself". But I think a new design could be made using the same construction method.If the origami method is as quick as laying a fiberglass boat (but with no mold investment), this is a huge result itself. The difference is the final material result. No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already finished. A framed one not. AlexAlex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       2014-05-30 0:26 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex, maybe you should come to an agreement with Brent to licence a Brent Swain design and pay him royalties and do it.   One day Brent will appreciate mailbox money when he cannot pull a boat together any more.   Before you do that, maybe see how long it takes a professional welder (not Brent) to pull a boat together.  I think you will find that the savings in origami is all in the do-it-yourself and using common as opposed to yachty components.   Once the mould is made, laying a fibreglass hull is not a lot of work, and relatively unskilled.   A frame boat made in a shop, with all the metal CNC precut, and all the jigs ready for the next boat, not sure it would be a lot more than orgami for a 26 with no frames.   In short, I am not sure a business could be made of it.       MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:39:08 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Ok, thanks, the question is: has anybody ever tried to introduce in the nautical market a metal sailing boat "ready to go" at a low cost as the fiberglass series yachts?Alex 2014-05-29 10:37 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Afaik-No. I believe some brent boats have been built by professional boatyards. Brent will likely know of some. In general, there is almost no series production of steel boats as yachts (for leisure). Basically, the US yacht market does not want metal (steel) boats. The US market == 50% of world yacht markets. Nearby in France, they make aluminium (sail)boats as yachts. And many yards make alu boats for commercial use. The nearest series production in steel I know of are the Diesel Ducks, done by Seahorse marine in China. The leisure boat market (lead by the US consumer) wants these things; -Large, round, bottle shaped hulls, with as much interior room as possible. -Lots of shiny glitter and stainless steel. -Lots of toys and amenities, also called "systems". -Lots of brand names, to play "mine (brand x) is better" (more powerful, stronger, bigger). -Lots of electronics. The goal is to make it look like the "Starship Enterprise". None of the above are desirable for a modest-cost cruising boat, weather sail or power. Ideally, a cruising boat has; -a long waterline rel. to size -robust, simple systems -robust comfortable systems aka hotel loads -cheap consumer goods of very low power use, as needed, cheaply replaced anywhere in the world -good design in systems related to long term comfort The last means large tankage, good waste management, batteries, low power consumption. Large-sized PV panels as appropriate (2 or more 300W panels can change hotel load power needs to essentially zero). On 29/05/2014 08:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anybody know if it exists somewhere in the world a professional boatyard building metal boats similar to an origami Brent boat with same practical charecteristics? I mean a series production. Thanks Alex Posted by: Alex Bar mailto:alebarale33@... -- -hanermo (cnc designs) #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 -- #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471activity span .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 dd.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 dd.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 dd.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471last p span.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 div#ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 .ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 input, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471 #ygrps-yiv-1848641528yiv0696881471ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1848641528 | 31028|31013|2014-05-31 02:41:45|Alex Bar|Re: Professional boatyard|Thanks Hanermo, I agree with you. But lets talk about a smaller range of boats. Let say 31-33 ft (more affordable for a bigger number of people). There are same fiberglass models at the cost variable from 75000 to 95000 $. We are talking about big series production. Those boats are nearly empty, they are made so simple and not "yachty" at all. I remember two years ago I saw an Hanse 31. It was impressive how evrithing inside and outside was minimal and I think that model was nominated "boat of the year". I figured how quick it has to be the construction process. So, can you split this cost same way as you did with the 40 ft "shainy and yachty"?Alex 2014-05-30 10:20 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Both You Alex and Mat arre correct (!?), but my point was is that it does not matter, at all, re:hull. A freely-built as in zero-work hours/welding material boat hull still has the same impediments as an origami metal boat. "Systems" cost as in sailboats/cruising motorboats is about 70% of total cost. Half is labour and installation and vendor markup, half is overpriced, generally not-too-good-for-purpose systems cost. So weather the hull is origami or not is irrelevant, from the point of view of a (sail) boat cost. The vast majority of buyers (mostly US buyers) want "systems". The vast majority want "yachts" rather than boats. Yachts are associated with glitter, and shiny bits and wood-and-laquer. Consider an example, 12 m of 40 ft sailboat. Say, 300.000$ yard cost today, new. 1. Hull is about 30-50.000$ in labour and materials. 2. Electronics say 50.000$. 3. Propulsion, piping, tankage and drivetrain 30.000$. 4. Riggging 30.000$. 5. Detailing, fit, finish 30.000$. Thats 190.000$. Say 6.000 hours work, at 15$/hr, 90.000$. Cost 280.000 $. Selling price around 400.000-500.000$. The problem is people *want* 2,4,5 and they want it to be shiny and "yachty". The people who dont want 2,4,5 mostly cannot afford a 200.000$ boat either. A 200.000$ 12m boat is reasonable, if you drop the yachty (branding) bits and unnecessary fluff, glitter and starship electronics. A 120.000 $ 12m boat is doable, with some compromises, if at least 5 are made, indentical. To drive the price down, tooling and a systematic approach is required. This is a one-time upfront cost, that can only be done if some volume is had to spread the cost. Note all above are yard costs, not retail pricing. The yard and builder need to make a profit, everyone needs to eat. This needs to be about 20-30%, at a minimum. On 30/05/2014 07:56, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > No way, the difference between a metal origami hull and a framed ones > (both CNC precut) is huge. Think also about the big final job in > finishing the hull. The first one if done properly could be already > finished. A framed one not. > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31029|31013|2014-05-31 04:43:29|Hannu Venermo|Re: Professional boatyard|I´ll do one, as soon as I can, now need to run to go get some bits for my cnc mill. The small sailboats, like 31 ft are a special category. They are built as cheap as possible, for the daysailing/charter and canot-afford-a-yacht crowd. I charter boats every year (maybe 20 times so far), and then take people around over here in the med. I have sailed in these, and they are just as much fun as the bigger 15 m one we used 2 years back, with 5 cabins and 3 showers. Grin. The essential clue is that no matter what, ALL the rest of the stuff easily costs the same ! So, if you want to fit out a 31 ft boat with the same stuff, it can still cost the same 500k$. They way they get away with it, in the chepest FBR boats is to essentially leave out everything you need in a crusing or comfortable liveaboard boat. No proper -anchors and chain and winches -tankage -batteries -insulation -navigation instruments (these are simple but sifficient. You dont really *need* a lot.) -storage -space -workroom -tools The engine is fine, and the rig is adequate. Small sail-light boats-low loads-low use in heavy weather. The rigging and winches are shiny and pretty, small, underpowered. For the use, they work fine. Because the boat is empty, light and small, it sails well, and is plenty fast for the size. Live in one for a week, some things appear. I went to menorca for a week, 2 years ago, alone. Had a GREAT time. 200 Nm crossing, single handed. No sweat. I arrived in a securite gail warning, with heavy swells. Batteries-inadequate. Galley-fridge inadequate. All the other stuff as mentioned before. On 31/05/2014 08:41, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > So, can you split this cost same way as you did with the 40 ft "shainy > and yachty"? > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31030|31013|2014-05-31 11:28:50|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|Aaron is right. I do not see you save much building Origami boat by boatyard.First, you may have hard time to find a yard which will take the job (no experience in such type of construction). Second, hourly rate by boatyard is about $50-100 hr. So, building time will be 3-4 times longer. Let say 800 hrs x 2 people= 1600 man/hrs.You do the math....Plus the yard will ask for full set of building documentation (to pass responsibility on customer if something goes wrong) - extra cost to make one. >My thoughts as for building commerciallytwo dedicated craft persons to cut fit and pull the hull then weld out and trim with wire inside a shop could get the method down to about 200 hrs work not counting the other support who runs down to get the consumables. after that the interior finish is wide open to interpretation, but a basic painted plywood finish should be able to be completed in the next 30 days.so 2 months straight work no days off. maybe after the third or forth boat was completed. cost would be in the $150,000 US| 31031|31013|2014-05-31 11:43:37|Hannu Venermo|Re: Professional boatyard|Most anywhere any nr of boatyards will happily take on any job, as long as you are responsible for it. You would still save on the hull - as a std hull takes very long to finish. All above still ignores the fact that the hull as and of itself has little to do with costs and or construction times. On 31/05/2014 17:28, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Aaron is right. I do not see you save much building Origami boat by > boatyard. > > First, you may have hard time to find a yard which will take the job > (no experience in such type of construction). Second, hourly rate by > boatyard is about $50-100 hr. So, building time will be 3-4 times > longer. Let say 800 hrs x 2 people= 1600 man/hrs. > > You do the math.... > > Plus the yard will ask for full set of building documentation (to pass > responsibility on customer if something goes wrong) - extra cost to > make one. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31032|31013|2014-05-31 11:43:50|Matt Malone|Re: Professional boatyard| Absolutely.  This alone makes Brent's boats unique and an important contribution to boat design.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 30 May 2014 19:27:46 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   The MAIN advantage of Origami boat is that the hull can be erected by ONE person without ANY lifting equipment. My 40 ft hull (just the shell)  weight about 5,000 Lbs. Metal fabricators could not believe their eyes watching me putting it together as well as rotating it just by myself around shell's CoG (to reposition the hull).To lift the hull from the ground for keel installation will require hydraulic jack/s. Can be done by one person as well. >> The entire point of Brent's origami designs is, no mould, no wooden support frame, very little material is bought that does not end up in the boat.   This is perfect for a one-of home build. | 31033|31013|2014-05-31 12:37:57|Hannu Venermo|Re: Professional boatyard|This is one where I dont agree so much. Any nr of people have built big boats alone, with no equipment. Rigging is not that hard. Slow, when alone, but perfectly doable. And a very few pieces of kit make it relatively easy. Chain lifts, an a frame etc. Many people have built a bruce roberts boat in steel, for example. On 31/05/2014 17:43, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Absolutely. This alone makes Brent's boats unique and an important > contribution to boat design. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31034|31013|2014-05-31 13:16:44|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Re: Professional boatyard|I still have to find a shipyard willing to build an Origami boat. I came close once, but the bid was not different from a conventional approved method of construction. So far the few, have been built by amateurs.  Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Sat, May 31, 2014 11:28 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Aaron is right. I do not see you save much building Origami boat by boatyard. First, you may have hard time to find a yard which will take the job (no experience in such type of construction). Second, hourly rate by boatyard is about $50-100 hr. So, building time will be 3-4 times longer. Let say 800 hrs x 2 people= 1600 man/hrs. You do the math.... Plus the yard will ask for full set of building documentation (to pass responsibility on customer if something goes wrong) - extra cost to make one. >My thoughts as for building commercially two dedicated craft persons to cut fit and pull the hull then weld out and trim with wire inside a shop could get the method down to about 200 hrs work not counting the other support who runs down to get the consumables. after that the interior finish is wide open to interpretation, but a basic painted plywood finish should be able to be completed in the next 30 days. so 2 months straight work no days off. maybe after the third or forth boat was completed. cost would be in the $150,000 US | 31035|31013|2014-05-31 18:34:18|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|I'd be happy to supervise them, without me doing anything physical. I have been doing this with my new crew, who will be taking over my job in that kind of work. For a company with Cad precut plates and interiors,  it would represent a huge saving in time . When they give you quotes, I don't think they have the foggiest idea much time it would save.| 31036|31013|2014-05-31 18:36:54|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|You would save on the hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit, rudder and skeg. The amount of cuting and welding would be drastically reduced, by using 36 ft plates, instead of the many smaller plates, using traditional methods . You would be welding and fitting 14 feet of chine per side , instead of the full length multi chines of more traditional designs. Fairing of the finished hull would be eliminated. A friend was quoted $40 K for painting one of my 36 footers with a high gloss finish , by a painter who mistakenly  assumed it would have the same amount of fairing as most steel boats.In fact  it would need little or none| 31037|31013|2014-05-31 18:52:14|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|My 31 cost me $6K to get sailing and living aboard in 84. I haven't spent a whole lot more on her since , I simply haven't had a lot of money come in. With so many boats being scrapped or given away , we are awash in perfectly good used gear, for super cheap  or free. A friend was given a rotted out cement boat for free. She came with a great mast and rig, barely used, sails , winches , anchors, running rigging ,  rodes,  fire extinguisher , bronze hatch , about 25 K worth  of gear , all free.. That kind of opportunity  is becoming far more common.You can build all the anchors you need out of hull scraps, for under $50 each. You canbuild an anchor winch for under $50 in materials , a composting head for under $25 in materials , a self steering for under $25 in materials, blocks for under $2 in materials , etc etc . Sails, in excellent condition ,  have never cost me more than $350 each,  for a main or genny.I found  a Whale Gusher 25 in almost new condition in a dumpster  recently. All  I had to do was  replace some " yachtie absurdity" type , closely machined aluminium bolts with loose fitting stainless ones.| 31038|30977|2014-05-31 19:00:33|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Having a comfortable  wheelhouse with an inside steering station is huge factor in reducing the fatigue and exhaustion factor.  We feel  less exhausted after driving a car all night than in a few hours in an open cockpit in bad weather . There is no reason sailing should be any less  comfortable than driving a car. For this reason,  designing a boat which offers no alternative  but leaving the helmsman exposed to the elements is simply bad seamanship.Good seamanship begins on the drawing board, and only  with a designer who has a lot of personal cruising expereience.| 31039|31013|2014-05-31 19:10:11|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|Some of my clients bought  a boat. After they had gained a lot of experience and saw what was available, they concluded that the only way they could get what they really wanted, based on experience , was to build, which they eventually did.There are a lot of cheap  plastic boats available, but very few good steel boats available.Steve said he hit a lot of rocks at  hull speed on Silas Crosby, with zero damage resulting, which would have cost him a lot of plastic boats , or  a lot of enjoyment, by constantly having to worry about hitting anything, in a plastic boat. At sea on a dark night, sailing at hull speed, he slept far more soundly than he ever did in his plastic boat.| 31040|31013|2014-06-01 04:40:52|Alex Bar|Re: Professional boatyard|Yves Marie, how could the boatyard justify the same amount of money asked for a conventional approved method of construction?What was the cost? What size? ThanksAlex2014-05-31 19:16 GMT+02:00 'Yves-Marie R. de Tanton' Tantonyachts@... [origamiboats] :   I still have to find a shipyard willing to build an Origami boat. I came close once, but the bid was not different from a conventional approved method of construction. So far the few, have been built by amateurs.  Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Sat, May 31, 2014 11:28 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Aaron is right. I do not see you save much building Origami boat by boatyard. First, you may have hard time to find a yard which will take the job (no experience in such type of construction). Second, hourly rate by boatyard is about $50-100 hr. So, building time will be 3-4 times longer. Let say 800 hrs x 2 people= 1600 man/hrs. You do the math.... Plus the yard will ask for full set of building documentation (to pass responsibility on customer if something goes wrong) - extra cost to make one. >My thoughts as for building commercially two dedicated craft persons to cut fit and pull the hull then weld out and trim with wire inside a shop could get the method down to about 200 hrs work not counting the other support who runs down to get the consumables. after that the interior finish is wide open to interpretation, but a basic painted plywood finish should be able to be completed in the next 30 days. so 2 months straight work no days off. maybe after the third or forth boat was completed. cost would be in the $150,000 US | 31041|31013|2014-06-01 08:01:25|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Re: Professional boatyard|The size:43'. The cost 200K. to start. Boatbuilders are interested in the whole package. And a basic hull and deck with basic systems and interior is of no interest to them. Also the fact that like Brent said " they have not the foggiest idea of what Origami boats are all about". The absence of conventional rules is a problem.  Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Sun, Jun 1, 2014 5:55 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Yves Marie, how could the boatyard justify the same amount of money asked for a conventional approved method of construction? What was the cost? What size? Thanks Alex 2014-05-31 19:16 GMT+02:00 'Yves-Marie R. de Tanton' Tantonyachts@... [origamiboats] :   I still have to find a shipyard willing to build an Origami boat. I came close once, but the bid was not different from a conventional approved method of construction. So far the few, have been built by amateurs.  Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Sat, May 31, 2014 11:28 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Aaron is right. I do not see you save much building Origami boat by boatyard. First, you may have hard time to find a yard which will take the job (no experience in such type of construction). Second, hourly rate by boatyard is about $50-100 hr. So, building time will be 3-4 times longer. Let say 800 hrs x 2 people= 1600 man/hrs. You do the math.... Plus the yard will ask for full set of building documentation (to pass responsibility on customer if something goes wrong) - extra cost to make one. >My thoughts as for building commercially two dedicated craft persons to cut fit and pull the hull then weld out and trim with wire inside a shop could get the method down to about 200 hrs work not counting the other support who runs down to get the consumables. after that the interior finish is wide open to interpretation, but a basic painted plywood finish should be able to be completed in the next 30 days. so 2 months straight work no days off. maybe after the third or forth boat was completed. cost would be in the $150,000 US | 31042|31013|2014-06-01 12:29:23|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|That is another problem...That Alex, if you do not want to do welding by yourself for Origamiboat, you will be better off finding welding company which does welding in construction business (preferably with materials 10Ga-1/4 steel). Such company will treat the boat as a regular metal structure. More likely, some changes to tanks, deck, cabin, pilot house installation (or order) need to be made just to take into an account lifting equipment and other resources welding company may have.This way YOU will be a boatbuilder, but you outsource hull welding and QA to professional welders and inspectors. It is NOT necessary to finish the boat (systems, engine, interior) to be able to get Hull Identification Number. Building boat for yourself, gives you some brake from some mandatory rules for boatyards as well (engine tier, etc).In case with 36 ft Origami, it could be easily transported from welding company site to water to finish it. >Boatbuilders are interested in the whole package. | 31043|31013|2014-06-01 12:34:55|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|Yves Marie, did you finish your project with a boat using Origami construction?| 31044|31013|2014-06-02 03:09:47|opuspaul|Re: Professional boatyard|There are some real rust traps in the used steel market but you can still find some good used steel boats if you are patient and are willing to travel.    Prices keep coming down.   I have seen boats halve in price the last year as sellers get more and more desperate.   Following is one example.   A 33 footer for about 18,000 USD.  I haven't seen it but if there is little or no rust inside, she would be a great boat.  Alan Buchanan designs are very well behaved vessels.  If you don't mind fiberglass, you can get a comfortable offshore boat for about half the price of a good used steel one.  My friend got a fully equipped Pearson 32 for $8000 in Tonga a few years ago.  All it really needed for him to head offshore was a good clean.   You could never build a boat that cheap.  Used boats are so cheap, it really only makes sense to build if you are picky and want a custom boat that will really cater to your own needs.   You need to really, really want to do it.....You absolutely must build cheap and build fast like Brent recommends or the economics of a new build quickly gets nuts.   There are too many things like rent and consumables that never show up in the finished product and to drag it out makes no sense.   Keep in mind that you should be building full time and you will ideally have a build site that is free while you also pay to live somewhere else.  All of this is occurring while you are not working and making a wage.   If you don't like this, you are better off just working and saving money and taking advantage of others effort and labor.    Paul33' steel yacht Alan Buchanan 33' steel yacht Alan Buchanan PRICE REDUCED!! DON'T MISS IT!!!!!!! Very good conditions, huge refit 2013, the yacht is in Fiji Island, permanently imported in Fiji. View on www.trademe.co.nz Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Some of my clients bought  a boat. After they had gained a lot of experience and saw what was available, they concluded that the only way they could get what they really wanted, based on experience , was to build, which they eventually did.There are a lot of cheap  plastic boats available, but very few good steel boats available.Steve said he hit a lot of rocks at  hull speed on Silas Crosby, with zero damage resulting, which would have cost him a lot of plastic boats , or  a lot of enjoyment, by constantly having to worry about hitting anything, in a plastic boat. At sea on a dark night, sailing at hull speed, he slept far more soundly than he ever did in his plastic boat.| 31045|31045|2014-06-02 09:21:42|jhess314|convert single keel to twin keel|If one were to get an existing single-keel steel boat cheap enough, is it possible/practical to convert it to a twin keel boat?John| 31046|31045|2014-06-02 09:54:16|Matt Malone|Re: convert single keel to twin keel| Beach legs:  http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/Gregwpl/port.jpgThe answer to your question is, the boat was not designed for twin keels, it was designed for one keel.   Who knows what structural issues you might run into.  Also, you are changing the CG of the boat, again, who knows to what extent the original builder relied on where the CG was.   Beach legs can be custom made for your steel boat very easily.  The mods to the boat: including extra plates or stiffeners, or ready made mounting holes high up on the topsides are not very disruptive to the structure.  The legs themselves might bolt together from sections of pipe or square tube, with a sleaving piece inside or outside.   I have looked at making beach legs for my boat, and I think I would favour really big plates at the bottom, like 2'x2'  1/4 " steel so that they will work well even if the bottom is not perfect.   I was also considering a strap (1/2"x3" steel maybe) between the bottoms, that sits under the keel with a small saddle for the keel.   Such a strap would be able to take a little bit of tension or compression, holding the legs out away from the keel while the boat settles onto the legs as the tide goes out.  I would hook one leg and the strap on one side, lower it over the side using the main sheet for the boom, and use a float and line on the other end to pull it around and up under the keel, get it engaged, tie it off and then go in the water to put the last pin in.   A lot of work?  Yes.   More stuff inside the boat?  Yes.   Just a thought to avoid the costs of cranes and allow careening of a single keeler without a drying wall or piles against which to tie it. This is also one possible outcome, much worse if you are tied to a wall or piles:http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w7/mike_w_bucket/IMG_0315.jpgSo, I would use really stout, non-stretch lines to the base of the legs so that the legs stay in position.      Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 06:21:42 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] convert single keel to twin keel   If one were to get an existing single-keel steel boat cheap enough, is it possible/practical to convert it to a twin keel boat?John | 31047|30737|2014-06-02 14:01:39|kingsknight4life|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Jon.Can you email me some more details please?wildcatbjjhotmailcomThanksRowland| 31048|31013|2014-06-02 15:08:56|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|Paul, based on my experience I confirm that this is non-arguable MUST... >>You absolutely must build cheap and build fast like Brent recommends or the economics of a new build quickly gets nuts.   There are too many things like rent and consumables that never show up in the finished product and to drag it out makes no sense.   Keep in mind that you should be building full time and you will ideally have a build site that is free while you also pay to live somewhere else.  All of this is occurring while you are not working and making a wage.   If you don't like this, you are better off just working and saving money and taking advantage of others effort and labor.| 31049|31013|2014-06-02 15:47:04|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Re: Professional boatyard|Hello. Yes, but out of the 5, only one to my knowledge is being built. Even though the owner has still a long way to go. I am not surprised, buyers very often get frightened by the overall task when they get the plans. On the other end, sometimes I receive photos after years of no communication. Over the years the design has evolved to a more modern appearance. Hope that will work. Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Sun, Jun 1, 2014 12:34 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard Yves Marie, did you finish your project with a boat using Origami construction? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 31050|31045|2014-06-02 17:03:57|jhess314|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|Matt,That second photo of a boat doing a nose dive is priceless. Good that it didn't tip over sideways as well!Since Brent's boats can be built with either a single keel or a twin keel, I thought, perhaps erroneously, that the difference between the two type of keels was minimal, so one could beef  up the bilge area to support the other keel type.John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Beach legs:  http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/Gregwpl/port.jpgThe answer to your question is, the boat was not designed for twin keels, it was designed for one keel.   Who knows what structural issues you might run into.  Also, you are changing the CG of the boat, again, who knows to what extent the original builder relied on where the CG was.   Beach legs can be custom made for your steel boat very easily.  The mods to the boat: including extra plates or stiffeners, or ready made mounting holes high up on the topsides are not very disruptive to the structure.  The legs themselves might bolt together from sections of pipe or square tube, with a sleaving piece inside or outside.   I have looked at making beach legs for my boat, and I think I would favour really big plates at the bottom, like 2'x2'  1/4 " steel so that they will work well even if the bottom is not perfect.   I was also considering a strap (1/2"x3" steel maybe) between the bottoms, that sits under the keel with a small saddle for the keel.   Such a strap would be able to take a little bit of tension or compression, holding the legs out away from the keel while the boat settles onto the legs as the tide goes out.  I would hook one leg and the strap on one side, lower it over the side using the main sheet for the boom, and use a float and line on the other end to pull it around and up under the keel, get it engaged, tie it off and then go in the water to put the last pin in.   A lot of work?  Yes.   More stuff inside the boat?  Yes.   Just a thought to avoid the costs of cranes and allow careening of a single keeler without a drying wall or piles against which to tie it. This is also one possible outcome, much worse if you are tied to a wall or piles:http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w7/mike_w_bucket/IMG_0315.jpgSo, I would use really stout, non-stretch lines to the base of the legs so that the legs stay in position.      Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 06:21:42 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] convert single keel to twin keel  If one were to get an existing single-keel steel boat cheap enough, is it possible/practical to convert it to a twin keel boat?John#ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1960660836 #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771 .ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1960660836ygrps-yiv-1692940771ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31051|31013|2014-06-02 18:18:54|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|Len Blower of Confidence Custom Yachts, in Lake Country , in the Okanagan has built several of my designs, in both steel and aluminium. He may be retired by now , or someone else may have taken over the business. His phone number was 250-766-2573His  website was www.boatbuilding.wsWith actual experience in  origami, maybe his quotes will be more  realistic.He dose have a tendency to not stick to the design, with zero cruising experience.| 31052|31013|2014-06-02 18:25:19|Alex Bar|Re: Professional boatyard|This boat would be my fourth boat. After the experience I don't think any second hand or new boat would suit what I need  for myself.Alex 2014-06-02 9:09 GMT+02:00 opusnz@... [origamiboats] :   There are some real rust traps in the used steel market but you can still find some good used steel boats if you are patient and are willing to travel.    Prices keep coming down.   I have seen boats halve in price the last year as sellers get more and more desperate.   Following is one example.   A 33 footer for about 18,000 USD.  I haven't seen it but if there is little or no rust inside, she would be a great boat.  Alan Buchanan designs are very well behaved vessels.  If you don't mind fiberglass, you can get a comfortable offshore boat for about half the price of a good used steel one.  My friend got a fully equipped Pearson 32 for $8000 in Tonga a few years ago.  All it really needed for him to head offshore was a good clean.   You could never build a boat that cheap.  Used boats are so cheap, it really only makes sense to build if you are picky and want a custom boat that will really cater to your own needs.   You need to really, really want to do it.....You absolutely must build cheap and build fast like Brent recommends or the economics of a new build quickly gets nuts.   There are too many things like rent and consumables that never show up in the finished product and to drag it out makes no sense.   Keep in mind that you should be building full time and you will ideally have a build site that is free while you also pay to live somewhere else.  All of this is occurring while you are not working and making a wage.   If you don't like this, you are better off just working and saving money and taking advantage of others effort and labor.    Paul33' steel yacht Alan Buchanan 33' steel yacht Alan Buchanan PRICE REDUCED!! DON'T MISS IT!!!!!!! Very good conditions, huge refit 2013, the yacht is in Fiji Island, permanently imported in Fiji. View on www.trademe.co.nz Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Some of my clients bought  a boat. After they had gained a lot of experience and saw what was available, they concluded that the only way they could get what they really wanted, based on experience , was to build, which they eventually did. There are a lot of cheap  plastic boats available, but very few good steel boats available.Steve said he hit a lot of rocks at  hull speed on Silas Crosby, with zero damage resulting, which would have cost him a lot of plastic boats , or  a lot of enjoyment, by constantly having to worry about hitting anything, in a plastic boat. At sea on a dark night, sailing at hull speed, he slept far more soundly than he ever did in his plastic boat. | 31053|31045|2014-06-02 18:26:05|brentswain38|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|With twin keels being in the centre of  a plate, they need  a lot more beefing up than a single keel. With the single  keel being on the centreline and the aft end being  tankage, they need no beefing  up.| 31054|31013|2014-06-02 18:27:04|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|One can do a huge amount of the work in advance ( detail bits and pieces and scrounging) long before starting the hull. If you have done all you can do before starting the hull, it all goes together far more quickly and inexpensively. You can do your detail bits and pieces, and scrounging, ( like a  part time hobby)  long before needing a building  site.| 31055|31045|2014-06-02 19:09:56|brentswain38|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|It could be done , but it would be a huge job. You would have to scrape  all the foam out where the keels and their supports go.Then, welding over old paint and residual foam would be no fun. Blasting the area would make it easier.| 31056|31056|2014-06-02 19:21:39|mountain man|different boat material???| Brent,Did you thought of this; if we would live in a greener and more ecological oriented society and steel would be harder to get , what could  we use to build our boats other than wood (and fiberglass)?Martin | 31057|31056|2014-06-02 19:32:32|brentswain38|Re: different boat material???|The environmental foot print of building my boat , and mining and refining the material, was a  one shot deal 30 years ago. It has reduced my environmental foot print  to microscopic , compared to what it would have been without my boat.| 31058|31056|2014-06-02 19:35:04|brentswain38|Re: different boat material???|The steel industry is simply there. Aint going anywhere soon.Using it to minimize ones personal environmental foot print, over decades , is living responsibly.| 31059|31056|2014-06-02 19:38:56|mountain man|Re: different boat material???| I agree with you on your environmental foot print. What I mean is if the mining and refining materials (metals) would not be available on a big scale like now...could we form a small group and make a  batch of steel?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 16:32:32 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: different boat material???   The environmental foot print of building my boat , and mining and refining the material, was a  one shot deal 30 years ago. It has reduced my environmental foot print  to microscopic , compared to what it would have been without my boat. | 31060|31013|2014-06-02 19:46:55|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|Some commercial welders just don't know how to keep their welds small,  and control distortion. I've seen them warp the hell out of  a deck, by continuous overwelding. Students will listen . Expert know it all's  wont.| 31061|31013|2014-06-02 20:14:36|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|Thanks Yves-Marie for your answer. Where did you build a prototype for sea-trial?What do you mean under modern appearance? Superstructure? Origami hull allows only minor changes in hull's form... It simply wants to take "right shape" for easy-foldable hull.As I understand, you were trying to increase WL at first (in 39 model), but ended up with similar hull profile in your 45 model as Brentboat. Well... It is possible to come up with some unusual form of origami hull (even single chine), but it will affect hydrostatics and foldability. >>Over the years the design has evolved to a more modern appearance. Hope that will work. | 31062|31056|2014-06-02 21:15:12|wild_explorer|Re: different boat material???|Done centuries ago... No need even for iron/metal tools. Only stone tools could be used. It is possible to substitute wood by bones ;))http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_kayak >>if we would live in a greener and more ecological oriented society and steel would be harder to get , what could  we use to build our boats other than wood (and fiberglass)?| 31063|31056|2014-06-02 21:19:30|wild_explorer|Re: different boat material???|Done centuries ago... No need even for metal/iron tools. ;)) Wood can be substituted by bones...Aleutian kayak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Aleutian kayak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Baidarka or Aleutian kayak was the watercraft created by the native Aleut (or Unangan) people of the Aleutian Islands. The Aleut people were surrounded by t... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo   > >if we would live in a greener and more ecological oriented society and steel would be harder to get , what could  we use to build our boats other than wood (and fiberglass)?| 31064|31045|2014-06-02 22:16:42|sunbearone|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|A good article on Beaching Legs. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance-articles/20077-giving-your-boat-some-legs.html| 31065|31065|2014-06-03 00:10:49|mountain man|News| This just happened;http://news.ca.msn.com/local/novascotia/sailors-survive-32-days-at-sea-in-damaged-boat-before-limping-into-halifax-2They are talking about the top mast being broken, it looklikes they had a gaff rig...on an old sailboat... | 31066|31066|2014-06-03 00:59:38|Tom Popp|Cheap used boat?|If weldig up a Hull seems a bit of task, there are plenty of steel huills out there. Ones wioth no interior, etc. one for sale now tht is just a hull.... but $1500 http://portland.craigslist.org/yam/boa/4501181803.html| 31067|31065|2014-06-03 01:08:04|Brian Stannard|Re: News|Here's another link with a picture of the boat. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/sailors-survive-32-days-at-sea-in-damaged-boat-before-limping-into-halifax-1.2662156 On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 9:10 PM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:   This just happened;http://news.ca.msn.com/local/novascotia/sailors-survive-32-days-at-sea-in-damaged-boat-before-limping-into-halifax-2 They are talking about the top mast being broken, it looklikes they had a gaff rig...on an old sailboat... -- CheersBrian | 31068|31065|2014-06-03 02:03:30|opuspaul|Re: News|I wonder how many days he would have been at sea if he had been on a boat that could sail to windward.  It has the look to me of someone who has a lot of miles but has been pushing his luck with little funds.    If you look at the second video, the lines and the sails look very sun damaged.| 31069|31065|2014-06-03 06:45:01|Matt Malone|Re: News| Can anyone figure out what that boat is made of?  The mast is wood, the second video shows a crack.  There are a lot of rust-looking stains coming down the sides but, given the age of the boat, I am thinking the hull is wood too.    None of the photos give a good impression of the form or size of the boat...Anyone in this list from Halifax?  They will not be going anywhere for a while and I am sure they have a more detailed story of their travels.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 22:48:44 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] News   I wonder how many days he would have been at sea if he had been on a boat that could sail to windward.  It has the look to me of someone who has a lot of miles but has been pushing his luck with little funds.    If you look at the second video, the lines and the sails look very sun damaged. | 31070|31056|2014-06-03 11:18:57|mountain man|Re: different boat material???| bones, I already know that,my quetion is if we can make small quantities of steel by ourself or is there another material almost as strong, bones are not  very strong.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 18:13:19 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: different boat material???   Done centuries ago... No need even for metal/iron tools. ;)) Wood can be substituted by bones...Aleutian kayak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Aleutian kayak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Baidarka or Aleutian kayak was the watercraft created by the native Aleut (or Unangan) people of the Aleutian Islands. The Aleut people were surrounded by t... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo   > >if we would live in a greener and more ecological oriented society and steel would be harder to get , what could  we use to build our boats other than wood (and fiberglass)? | 31071|31056|2014-06-03 12:40:14|Hannu Venermo|Re: different boat material???|Yes we can. Dig up iron ore or old iron/steel, heat with forced air to melt and burn off carbon. Melt will be cast iron. Add charcoal in proportion to get the right carbon content. This will be steel. With the right additional additives, steel alloys, but that gets hard, and now you need to know what you have to know what to add. Backyarders have melted steel. It can be done with charcoal and a blower, like a leaf blower. Its not worthwhile, though, and better results than mild steel start to need instruments. These are either expensive, or not. New, I believe about 20k gets to all sorts of fast metal analysers. Second hand might be a few thousands. Note in most of the world, for significant quantities needed in a boat, environmental concerns and handling will become a problem. On 03/06/2014 17:18, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: > bones, I already know that, > my quetion is if we can make small quantities of steel by ourself or > is there another material almost as strong, bones are not very strong. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31072|31065|2014-06-03 15:26:41|brentswain38|Re: News|It was a wooden boat. $75,000 damage to an 87 year old wooden boat? The boat aint worth that much. You can get a good steel boat for less,  and have none of the worries they had.32 days at sea is a brief sail. The last one I did deep sea was 57 days non stop  from Tonga to BC. On my last trip from BC to the Marquesas non stop I had no diesel, in fact no engine.| 31073|31045|2014-06-03 15:38:11|brentswain38|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|On my single keel hulls, I weld in a 2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe socket,8 inches long, flush with  the outside, and supported inside by a gusett welded  to the topside plate. This lets you put  a sheer leg in, tied to the rail or chain plate. A stainless cap on the inside end of the 2 inch pipe eliminates corrosion problems there. Welding flush stainless acorn nuts 2 ft from the  sheer leg socket, at 90 degrees to one another,  lets you bolt braces on after the tide has gone out. An oval shaped plate welded to the bottom of the sheerleg, with two holes in, lets you bolt  a pad on. This makes for much shorter sheerlegs than the ones which have to go all the way to deck level, being only from the chine down.My book covers these.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A good article on Beaching Legs. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance-articles/20077-giving-your-boat-some-legs.html| 31074|31065|2014-06-03 16:32:56|Matt Malone|Re: News| Yes, I was standing at the photocopier thinking just that when your mail came through.  > $75,000 damage to an 87 year old wooden boat? The boat aint worth that much. MattMatt Malone, M.A.Sc. P.Eng Forensic Engineer R.J. Shirer & Associates 2601 Matheson Blvd. East, Unit 31 Mississauga, ON L4W 5A8 Phone: 905-290-1503 Fax: 905-290-1504 Email: matt@... Mobile: 416-570-3501 Web: www.rjshirer.com This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify R.J. Shirer & Associates Inc. immediately by email at matt@.... Thank you. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 12:24:58 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: News   It was a wooden boat. $75,000 damage to an 87 year old wooden boat? The boat aint worth that much. You can get a good steel boat for less,  and have none of the worries they had.32 days at sea is a brief sail. The last one I did deep sea was 57 days non stop  from Tonga to BC. On my last trip from BC to the Marquesas non stop I had no diesel, in fact no engine. | 31075|31065|2014-06-03 17:08:02|James Pronk|Re: News|I was thinking they must have lost it twice! From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: News Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 8:32:55 PM   Yes, I was standing at the photocopier thinking just that when your mail came through.  > $75,000 damage to an 87 year old wooden boat? The boat aint worth that much. MattMatt Malone, M.A.Sc. P.Eng Forensic Engineer R.J. Shirer & Associates 2601 Matheson Blvd. East, Unit 31 Mississauga, ON L4W 5A8 Phone: 905-290-1503 Fax: 905-290-1504 Email: matt@... Mobile: 416-570-3501 Web: www.rjshirer.com This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify R.J. Shirer & Associates Inc. immediately by email at matt@.... Thank you. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 12:24:58 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: News   It was a wooden boat. $75,000 damage to an 87 year old wooden boat? The boat aint worth that much. You can get a good steel boat for less,  and have none of the worries they had.32 days at sea is a brief sail. The last one I did deep sea was 57 days non stop  from Tonga to BC. On my last trip from BC to the Marquesas non stop I had no diesel, in fact no engine. | 31076|31065|2014-06-03 17:27:57|opuspaul|Re: News|He is probably fishing for donations with his hard luck story.....| 31077|31045|2014-06-03 17:41:19|opuspaul|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|I made up sheer legs using some heavy threaded rod that bolts on to the to rail at the scuppers.   The heavy threaded rod is welded to a heavy angle iron.   When I want to use legs, I just buy a few cheap fence posts and bolt them to the angle iron.   It is a compromise but the advantage is I don't have to carry the legs on board.   I can just pick the posts up when needed from any lumber yard for relatively little money.  I haven't used them on a beach yet but they worked well in the boat yard as a cradle and worked well when I needed to move the boat with a crane.There are a few photos under the photo album section in a folder called Opus IV.| 31078|31013|2014-06-04 11:52:56|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Re: Professional boatyard|None sailing as of yet. Yes, working on longer waterline, little more beam, sheerline; all under the constraint of steel sheets size and scantlings up to 60'.     Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Mon, Jun 2, 2014 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Thanks Yves-Marie for your answer. Where did you build a prototype for sea-trial? What do you mean under modern appearance? Superstructure? Origami hull allows only minor changes in hull's form... It simply wants to take "right shape" for easy-foldable hull. As I understand, you were trying to increase WL at first (in 39 model), but ended up with similar hull profile in your 45 model as Brentboat. Well... It is possible to come up with some unusual form of origami hull (even single chine), but it will affect hydrostatics and foldability. > >Over the years the design has evolved to a more modern appearance. Hope that will work. | 31079|31045|2014-06-04 17:23:35|brentswain38|Re: convert single keel to twin keel|The nice thing about sheerlegs in a boat yard is you dont need a cradle, and get to paint the entire bottom, without missing the spots under the cradle.| 31080|31080|2014-06-04 17:41:08|brentswain38|Dogma Vs progress|It is interesting to see for  how many centuries dogma stopped people from switching from extremely blunt bows to pointy ones, despite the logic staring them in the face the whole time ( "No, you cant do pointy bows because that is just not how its done. Don't tell me how it should be done . I have more qualifications than you") There are may more such examples.This kind of logic continues to hold back progress in boat design and building, such as metal boat building methods, like make a framework and plate it , basically unchanged since the clipper ship days.All progress has only  been done  by ignoring the dogma rules,and breaking with tradition . Had we listened to the naysayers of dogma, conservative thinkers would have kept us in the stone age.| 31081|31080|2014-06-05 07:53:03|ANDREW AIREY|Dogma Vs progress|It can't have been very many if at all.Egyptian reed boats are pointy so are ancient greek warships,usually equipped with a very pointy ram.In fact the bows of these wouldn't be too dissimilar to the bows of modern cargo ships.Blunt bows enable bigger cargo carrying capacity,particularly if speed is not too much of a consideration.Viking longships are long and pointy but Viking cargo ships were not and their linear descendants are the Humber Keels,still with square rig and a surprising ability to sail close to the wind.Modern yachting,including much of the terminology,is derived from the Dutch pleasure craft of the 16th and 17th century which Charles II brought back with him after the restoration and they owe their bow design to the sea conditions on the Zuider Zee,which can throw up a very nasty short chop at short notice.The thing about tradition is that we know that tradition works,which,if you are paying the bills,is very much of a consideration Experimentation,although a good idea in principle,may not,and racing,although commonly said to improve the breed,may lead down some very blind alleyscheersAndy Airey| 31082|31080|2014-06-05 16:54:13|brentswain38|Re: Dogma Vs progress|Some traditional ideas are excellent , some are bad ideas which dogma alone has kept alive . The best boats are a blend of traditional and modern chosen on practical  considerations. Clinging dogmatically to either tradition, or modern,  base on its stylishness rather than on practical considerations, is a big mistake| 31083|31080|2014-06-05 17:46:01|a.sobriquet|Re: Dogma Vs progress|A lot of guys choose their wife "based on stylishness rather than on practical considerations" ;)  Whoops, I'll bet I shouldn't have opened that can of worms!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Some traditional ideas are excellent , some are bad ideas which dogma alone has kept alive . The best boats are a blend of traditional and modern chosen on practical  considerations. Clinging dogmatically to either tradition, or modern,  base on its stylishness rather than on practical considerations, is a big mistake| 31084|31013|2014-06-06 00:20:30|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|OK... I assumed that the picture of the hull (in file section) was the construction done  by your company... Was it done by the customer building 39 model?How do you solve the problem with non-standard length for steel plate for 45 model? Joining smaller plates?I was trying to increase WL at first as well, but it allows only minor changes (without creating other problems). I had to give up that idea ;(Compromises, compromises.... ;)) >>None sailing as of yet.Yes, working on longer waterline, little more beam, sheerline; all under the constraint of steel sheets size and scantlings up to 60'.| 31085|31080|2014-06-06 02:48:00|Hannu Venermo|Re: Dogma Vs progress|YES ! On 05/06/2014 22:54, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Some traditional ideas are excellent , some are bad ideas which dogma > alone has kept alive . The best boats are a blend of traditional and > modern chosen on practical considerations. Clinging dogmatically to > either tradition, or modern, base on its stylishness rather than on > practical considerations, is a big mistake -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31086|31080|2014-06-06 15:50:21|ragnarpar|Re: Dogma Vs progress|Wow! You got to choose yours????| 31087|31013|2014-06-06 20:03:04|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|I think I covered this a few posts back. Best make the joint amidships, where the transverse bottom seam is. That way you only have only to match up the topsides seam, initially.| 31088|31080|2014-06-06 20:06:14|brentswain38|Re: Dogma Vs progress|Some wives are an excellent combination of both , but such are extremely  rare. Often they are adventurous women, married to guys who's only ambition is the TV and the foot ball game.Sadly!| 31089|31013|2014-06-06 22:57:27|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|Yes, Brent, you did. Thank you for your detailed answer. Standard plate's length is 20ft and 40ft. So, it is possible to make pattern from it (1x40 or 2x20) for Origamiboat <40ft. But 45ft model requires some non-standard plates' size (2x20 is not enough, 2x40 - lot of cutting and hard to handle). That why I asked  Yves-Marie where they get non-standard plates to eliminate extra cutting/welding. >> I think I covered this a few posts back. Best make the joint amidships, where the transverse bottom seam is. That way you only have only to match up the topsides seam, initially.| 31090|31013|2014-06-07 00:19:33|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Re: Professional boatyard|In the cases of the the 43 and the 45 designs, it was a matter of adding in one a counter transom, in the other a transom stern at 45' I  have to look for the models since it was a few years ago.  Both boats, I have been designs commissions but not built as far as I know.  Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112 -----Original Message----- From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Professional boatyard   Yes, Brent, you did. Thank you for your detailed answer. Standard plate's length is 20ft and 40ft. So, it is possible to make pattern from it (1x40 or 2x20) for Origamiboat <40ft. But 45ft model requires some non-standard plates' size (2x20 is not enough, 2x40 - lot of cutting and hard to handle). That why I asked  Yves-Marie where they get non-standard plates to eliminate extra cutting/welding. > > I think I covered this a few posts back. Best make the joint amidships, where the transverse bottom seam is. That way you only have only to match up the topsides seam, initially. | 31091|31080|2014-06-07 15:40:22|James Pronk|Re: Dogma Vs progress|This is where I think I have totally lucked out!We have been working towards building a BS36. We thought of building in BC, but the logistics of doing it have not added up. We have decided to build here, but my wife wants to cruise the west coast. After she did a pile of reading on it she said "no problem, we can just sail through the North West passage". I asked her if she was joking, she said "yes, a little bit".James From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dogma Vs progress Sent: Sat, Jun 7, 2014 12:06:14 AM   Some wives are an excellent combination of both , but such are extremely  rare. Often they are adventurous women, married to guys who's only ambition is the TV and the foot ball game.Sadly! | 31092|31013|2014-06-07 17:08:05|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|The plate comes in 150 ft long rolls and is flattened at the suppliers, so they are just being bureaucratically lazy when they say they cant supply odd lengths.They  can  cut it anywhere they want to . Sometimes leftovers can be planned to make up tank tops, etc.| 31093|31013|2014-06-07 17:17:02|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|In steel, that sharp bottom corner of a reverse transom is notoriously hard to keep point on and is a maintenance nightmare. Best do it in stainless and eliminate the problem. Doesn't take a lot of stainless to eliminate such  a major  maintenance problem.| 31094|31013|2014-06-07 22:47:01|wild_explorer|Re: Professional boatyard|It is very hard to find steel processors who actually process the steel from rolls into plates. Especially 10 ft wide. Processor is not interested in 2-3 plates of odd length - not worth of troubles to adjust equipment force and back if you are one-time customer.I even had a hard time to find distributor who had 40x10 ft plates in stock.... Another problem is shipping of plates > 40 ft long. Distributor might cut plates by plasma to smaller length form 40ft plates even for free sometimes.| 31095|31013|2014-06-09 17:53:38|brentswain38|Re: Professional boatyard|Nice to know you found 10 ft wide plates . The best we have been able to get is 8 ft wide, altho I am told that Tidy Tanks has wider plates.| 31096|31096|2014-06-09 18:01:30|wild_explorer|Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|I am wondering if it is possible to use fence's top rail (1-3/8" 17Ga galvanized steel pipe - which is about 1-1/4" sch 5 pipe with lighter wall).I plan to make safety rail (at least for construction time). The main reason is availability from local hardware stores and cost. It comes in length 10.5ft and 21ft. Cost is about $30 for 21' rail-pipe (similar in price for 1" sch40 x 10' galvanized pipe).Did anybody weld sch5 pipe (17Ga wall in this case) with stick electrode? Any concerns to use it?P.S. 316L SS pipe is expensive.| 31097|31096|2014-06-09 18:40:51|opuspaul|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|The pipe you are talking about using is such a large diameter, I think it would look funny and be too heavy.Did you price out SS boat/hand rail?   Stay away from yachty companies and go to an industrial/ architectural supplier.   It is 1 inch OD tubing and comes in 316.   I don't believe it has a pressure rating.   I found it is much, much cheaper than buying SS pipe.| 31098|31096|2014-06-09 20:08:48|wild_explorer|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|Thanks Paul! I will check the price of 316 SS 1" tube. I will definitely check industrial suppliers, but it is still will be at least $4-6/Lb vs. $1/Lb for fence rail. I have 1-1/2" Sch 40 pipe on the hull (1.9" OD). I am not sure what OD I need for handrails to make it look good overall. And I do not want to experiment in SS ;))Correction... Fence's top rail I am talking about is more tube than pipe. It has 1.375 OD with 0.0575 wall (vs 1.315 OD and 0.133 wall for 1" sch 40 pipe) and it weight about 8 Lbs for 10.5ft long rail. So, outside diameter (OD) is pretty similar to 1" sch40 pipe.| 31099|31096|2014-06-09 20:36:48|opuspaul|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|Handrail tubing normally used on boats is 1 inch (25.4 mm) OD with a 1.5 mm wall.  It seems kind of spindly but when stanchions are tied together with a top rail it is much stronger than having the normal crappy stanchions with wire.  It is a long story, but I don't think I would be alive if I had wire lifelines on my boat.I lived on a boat with galvanized pipe handrails and they were a real pain in the ass to keep painted and rust free.   For the little bit of extra cost, I would do stainless.   You can get 316 or 304.  I would try to find 316, especially if you are going to the tropics.  If I remember right, satin finish is cheaper.  I managed to get all of my tubing from a scrap yard.  It had a few scratches but otherwise it was OK.   I  welded all of mine using a stick welder.    My inverter welder does a nicer job of welding the tubing than my older arc welder.  I found it is smoother, easier to strike, and easier to avoid burn through on the  thin wall with the inverter welder.  If you are really keen you could tig weld but it is expensive and requires a skill set needing a lot of practice.| 31100|31096|2014-06-09 21:37:46|wild_explorer|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|The tubing you describe is very close to 3/4" sch 5 pipe (1.05"~=26.6mm OD with 0.065"~=1.65mm wall). >> Handrail tubing normally used on boats is 1 inch (25.4 mm) OD with a 1.5 mm wall. | 31101|31101|2014-06-09 21:56:26|smallboatvoyaguer|Wheelchair Modification|Greetings all. I'm starting construction on the 31 soon. Setting up shop now. A friend of mine (the second actually) is now confined to a wheelchair from diving into shallow water. I'd like to modify my Brent boat to be easily accessible for a wheelchair; I'm speaking of the cockpit and pilot house only. I've captained charter sail boat trips with folks in wheelchairs and using the boom as a crane is extremely awkward and time consuming, not to mention quite dangerous. Having to be carried aboard smacks on pride. I'd like to figure out something different. We'll (wheel?) be sailing together often, so it seems it would be worth figuring this out.  I am open to just about any ideas out there. Thoughts?I don't have to make this modification, but it sure would be nice. -Marlin| 31102|31096|2014-06-09 22:22:26|Aaron|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|The fence tubing would give you a great reference for visual appearanceAaron From: "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2014 4:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail   Thanks Paul! I will check the price of 316 SS 1" tube. I will definitely check industrial suppliers, but it is still will be at least $4-6/Lb vs. $1/Lb for fence rail. I have 1-1/2" Sch 40 pipe on the hull (1.9" OD). I am not sure what OD I need for handrails to make it look good overall. And I do not want to experiment in SS ;))Correction... Fence's top rail I am talking about is more tube than pipe. It has 1.375 OD with 0.0575 wall (vs 1.315 OD and 0.133 wall for 1" sch 40 pipe) and it weight about 8 Lbs for 10.5ft long rail. So, outside diameter (OD) is pretty similar to 1" sch40 pipe. #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 -- #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341activity span .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 dd.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 dd.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 dd.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341last p span.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 div#ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 .ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 input, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341 #ygrps-yiv-1353741924yiv2635270341ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1353741924 | 31103|31096|2014-06-10 00:56:37|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel pricing|Steel and SS are manufactured and sold by the ton. They have "basic" pricing, ie all 316L SS will be pretty much the same price/ton, when it is the same stuff, new, *unless* you are paying for unusual dealer markup. If you get a significant difference, it is not the same stuff ! OR the other source was overpriced. Worldwide and countrywide published materials basic prices pretty much track to retail, with some margin for logistics. (Basic) tool steel is around 1€ / kg, and SS is about 3x that. Thats retail, for less than multiple tons. Alu is about 3x steel price. Alloyed tool steel is another matter, and may vary greatly. Wont matter in boatbuilding. Like Brent very well said, industrial suppliers is the place to go to. If you cant find any, might ask local machine shops, or look for suppliers to machine shops. Also, major steel mills/importers can direct you to their reps in the area. Here is one source. http://www.worldsteelprices.com/ As You can see, the prices pretty well track currency differences. My point. There are no great bargains, as such. And if the quoted price is much more than 2x index price, look elsewhere. Recycled is one good source, if appropriate for you. Be sure to check its 316L ! Bring a magnet (316 is slightly magnetic). On 10/06/2014 00:40, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I found it is much, much cheaper than buying SS pipe. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31104|31096|2014-06-10 01:40:21|opuspaul|Re: Steel pricing|Not necessarily.   Cost of a finished product has a lot to do with the manufacturing process and the standard, not just the weight and material.   Pipe has a pressure rating and has a standard it must meet to get the certificates for the pressure rating.   They will test some of it to burst pressure and if it fails they may end up rejecting the whole lot.   This adds to cost.   It is also threaded and heavier walled than cheap tubing.Some tubing also has a pressure rating,  and can be very expensive.   Tubing used for hand rails however has a structural standard but no pressure rating and no threaded ends.   Compared to pipe, the testing and the standard is pretty slack.   There is also a difference for matt finish or smooth (mirror) finish which can really vary the price. All of this has really nothing to do with whether it is 304, 316 or 316L.  Although there may be a difference, I personally have never seen any difference between 316 and 316L but a huge difference in corrosion with 304.  Anything 304 gets rusty in the salt and heat of the tropics.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Steel and SS are manufactured and sold by the ton. They have "basic" pricing, ie all 316L SS will be pretty much the same price/ton, when it is the same stuff, new, *unless* you are paying for unusual dealer markup. If you get a significant difference, it is not the same stuff ! OR the other source was overpriced. Worldwide and countrywide published materials basic prices pretty much track to retail, with some margin for logistics. (Basic) tool steel is around 1€ / kg, and SS is about 3x that. Thats retail, for less than multiple tons. Alu is about 3x steel price. Alloyed tool steel is another matter, and may vary greatly. Wont matter in boatbuilding. Like Brent very well said, industrial suppliers is the place to go to. If you cant find any, might ask local machine shops, or look for suppliers to machine shops. Also, major steel mills/importers can direct you to their reps in the area. Here is one source. http://www.worldsteelprices.com/ As You can see, the prices pretty well track currency differences. My point. There are no great bargains, as such. And if the quoted price is much more than 2x index price, look elsewhere. Recycled is one good source, if appropriate for you. Be sure to check its 316L ! Bring a magnet (316 is slightly magnetic). On 10/06/2014 00:40, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I found it is much, much cheaper than buying SS pipe. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31105|31096|2014-06-10 01:54:35|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: Steel pricing|Try using clean non carbon contaminanted ss wire brush or scotch brite pad on your ss after you remove the firt layer of rust oxides if you use a carbon brush the carbon will contaminant the ss the it is difficult to remove If using a magnet to test it works best with neodymium type high strength Sticks to 304 easley and slightly to 316 and not much to 316l Where a flat strip plastic type mag will not stick to any of the 3 grades Aaron Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel pricing Sent: Tue, Jun 10, 2014 5:40:21 AM   Not necessarily.   Cost of a finished product has a lot to do with the manufacturing process and the standard, not just the weight and material.   Pipe has a pressure rating and has a standard it must meet to get the certificates for the pressure rating.   They will test some of it to burst pressure and if it fails they may end up rejecting the whole lot.   This adds to cost.   It is also threaded and heavier walled than cheap tubing.Some tubing also has a pressure rating,  and can be very expensive.   Tubing used for hand rails however has a structural standard but no pressure rating and no threaded ends.   Compared to pipe, the testing and the standard is pretty slack.   There is also a difference for matt finish or smooth (mirror) finish which can really vary the price. All of this has really nothing to do with whether it is 304, 316 or 316L.  Although there may be a difference, I personally have never seen any difference between 316 and 316L but a huge difference in corrosion with 304.  Anything 304 gets rusty in the salt and heat of the tropics.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Steel and SS are manufactured and sold by the ton. They have "basic" pricing, ie all 316L SS will be pretty much the same price/ton, when it is the same stuff, new, *unless* you are paying for unusual dealer markup. If you get a significant difference, it is not the same stuff ! OR the other source was overpriced. Worldwide and countrywide published materials basic prices pretty much track to retail, with some margin for logistics. (Basic) tool steel is around 1€ / kg, and SS is about 3x that. Thats retail, for less than multiple tons. Alu is about 3x steel price. Alloyed tool steel is another matter, and may vary greatly. Wont matter in boatbuilding. Like Brent very well said, industrial suppliers is the place to go to. If you cant find any, might ask local machine shops, or look for suppliers to machine shops. Also, major steel mills/importers can direct you to their reps in the area. Here is one source. http://www.worldsteelprices.com/ As You can see, the prices pretty well track currency differences. My point. There are no great bargains, as such. And if the quoted price is much more than 2x index price, look elsewhere. Recycled is one good source, if appropriate for you. Be sure to check its 316L ! Bring a magnet (316 is slightly magnetic). On 10/06/2014 00:40, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I found it is much, much cheaper than buying SS pipe. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31106|31096|2014-06-10 02:28:48|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel pricing|Surprisinly, cost has almost nothing to do with manufacturing, mostly with retail and distribution. Almost all high tech goods, today, can be bought by price/kg. This applies to machine tools like cnc milling machines ie VMCs, trains, aeroplanes, caterpillar excavators, etc. The approx price for many manufactured goods is about 6€/kg. Thus a 6000 kg VMC (has about 2 m table) has a manufacturers price of about 36.000 €. In the EU, about 33% is added to get the cost with transport, and VAT, and transport from port to distribution centre. Thus the cost in the EU, to showroom, would be about 50.000€. A retail price might be twice that, or net. Depends on service, warranty, and required add-ons. Most "yacht goods" are grossly overpriced. They might cost 50-100€/kg, when the manufacturers price is only 1/10 or less of that. Blocks, cleats, schackles, winches, anchors etc. come to mind. Note you do NOT get what you pay for. This is a common fallacy that equates retail price with quality, which has about about-zero to do with the truth, today. The manufacturer only pays about the 5-6€/kg, or less, for the stuff. What IS true, is a parallel different-but-related fact that the cheapest one will not be the best buy, most times. It will be lighter, and usually made less well, of inferior materials. If you buy a heavy model, well made, at the cheapest price, it will usually be exactly what you want. "Brand" does not necesarily equate to quality, but mass and manufacturing quality does. Thus the heavier one will not be the cheapest. There is about 30-to-one difference in yacht stuff, when bought well, cheaply and efficiently, vs what most boat-and-yacht stuff is/costs. And example would be bilge pumps. An industrial hazardous/heavy-duty well excavation pump vs a yachty bilge pump will have about a 30:1 price/productivity difference, if you buy a big industrial pump vs a big yacht "bilge pump". The industrial stuff can spit out thumb sized rocks all day and not suffer at all. Another example would be fasteners, or marine electrical connectors, in 500-2000 per box lots. On 10/06/2014 07:54, 'akenai@...' akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Cost of a finished product has a lot to do with the manufacturing > process and the standard, not just the weight and material. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31107|31096|2014-06-10 03:24:16|opuspaul|Re: Steel pricing|As someone who has worked on aircraft and replaced bolts where each one was about $500 US, I strongly disagree.  It is all about manufacturing a testing.   Aviation has extreme standards but offshore oil and gas has pretty high standards too.  Why would you risk blowing up a pipeline or a rig by buying items out of a catalog by the pound?  Sure there are mark-ups and sometime they are high but really it is all about standards and the company procedures for manufacturing and testing so that they make the standards.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Surprisinly, cost has almost nothing to do with manufacturing, mostly with retail and distribution. Almost all high tech goods, today, can be bought by price/kg. This applies to machine tools like cnc milling machines ie VMCs, trains, aeroplanes, caterpillar excavators, etc. The approx price for many manufactured goods is about 6€/kg. Thus a 6000 kg VMC (has about 2 m table) has a manufacturers price of about 36.000 €. | 31108|31096|2014-06-10 05:10:25|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel pricing|No. Thats what you were told they retailed for. As someone who has sold the machines to the manufacturers who actually make the bolts, the real price is 6€/kg. Thats about what aerospace manufacturers get for their work. Or, often, about 20€/hr. The manufacturer gets 6€. The distributor gets 200-300. They then go the consumer, often the aircraft company, at whatever price. Like I said, its all in the distribution, and not the manufacure. The cost is not much different weather you make aircraft components, nuclear components, or industrial components. I have also worked on aircraft, (A, B1&B2 services on Mig21bis fighters. Grin.), but thats irrelevant re:costs. On 10/06/2014 09:24, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > As someone who has worked on aircraft and replaced bolts where each > one was about $500 US, I strongly disagree. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31109|31096|2014-06-10 15:08:29|opuspaul|Re: Steel pricing|Urban myth.....it comes from the stories of military and government waste like the stories about the $1000 toilet seat.   There is no way the mark-up is that high from distribution  and retail.  Many of the parts are made by the manufacturers themselves or go direct to bid with vendors and have few layers of distribution network.  When we bought a part from Sikorsky, it came from Sikorsky.   It didn't come from a distribution network in our area.  The only distribution network was Fed-EX or UPS.   The parts are expensive because they are made from quality materials, they are custom,  they are tested, and then they are insured up the yin yang against every ambulance chasing lawyer.  The engineering and testing may have been extensive.    I am sure the $500 bolts I was using had had many failures on many test stands and many engineering studies before they came up with one that worked.  Markups for distribution to retail may be 25% or 30% but that is no different than any other industry.Aircraft manufacturers were going broke and shutting down left and right and cutting corners all through the 80s and 90s.  Nobody was willing to pay the price for a new plane unless it was for a business.   If they could have dropped prices on parts to make the aircraft cheaper, compete,  and sell more, they would have.....it was only by changing the laws for insurance that allowed them to drop prices and start up production lines again.| 31110|31096|2014-06-10 17:12:39|brentswain38|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|It could be done. I have welded 16 gauge often, with 3/32 stainless rod, with no problems. Takes a light touch. If it shows the slightest hint of getting too hot , jump ahead and get back to that spot when it has cooled. Ditto when holes threaten. I do 1 inch long tacks, widely spaced on the trailing edge of 16 gauge trimtabs. You want to keep galvanized painted ,as the galvanizing slowly erodes away over time. Boats I have used galvanized rails on are still as good as the day I put them on decades ago. Lots of paint is the key. If you run into some cheap stainless in a scrapyard, it is easy to change them later. Going stainless on the upright stanchions makes it even easier.| 31111|31096|2014-06-10 17:15:33|brentswain38|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|I've used 1 1/4 OD on many boats . Looks good. Sch 40 galvanized is much easier to use, and cheap.| 31112|31101|2014-06-10 17:18:26|brentswain38|Re: Wheelchair Modification|You could make a gate and ramp  in the transom, but the ruder would  be tricky. You could make the entire top of the rudder removable.| 31113|31096|2014-06-13 23:57:40|wild_explorer|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|I checked local hardware stores and found that only 10ft long tubes (fence's top rail) available.In 10 ft length more galvanized tubes available (wire's conduit). There are 2 types of conduit: Light - wall between sch5 and sch10, no threads. Rigid - wall close to sch40, has thread on one end and coupler on other end (can be joined and welded later). Bending tool for light conduit is available as well.Light conduit is much lighter and cheaper than rigid conduit. Rigid conduit is similar in price (slightly cheaper) compare to galvanized water pipes.| 31114|31096|2014-06-14 10:46:26|wild_explorer|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|Correction. Electrical conduit (galvanized) comes in 3 grades: Light, Intermediate, Rigid. Light grade does not have threads and has lowest cost (about $7 for 1"x10ft). Intermediate has threads and available from stores - about twice the price of Light grade. Rigid - has threads and usually requires special order - price is about 35-40% more than Intermediate grade.21ft fence top rails available by special (usually online) order.| 31115|31115|2014-06-16 17:24:44|aguysailing|Comox Harbour BC Skilled Help|Just a thanks to Haidan "Boilerflue" for installing my mast steps.  In this video you will see Haidan showing off just some of his skill...  Brent looks on in the background..... many thanks Haidan  (heh, heh....)| 31116|31116|2014-06-16 17:28:35|aguysailing|.....ooops... here is that video|Comox Harbour BC Comox Harbour BC Video depicting skilled help available at this Comox anchorage. Haidan is about to install mast steps on my 36' Swain. View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo Haidan "Boilerflue"  at work....| 31117|31117|2014-06-16 17:33:44|aguysailing|....oops... video here|....here is that Haidan "Boilerflue" video  Comox Harbour BC Comox Harbour BC Video depicting skilled help available at this Comox anchorage. Haidan is about to install mast steps on my 36' Swain. View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo  | 31118|31117|2014-06-16 17:38:55|James Pronk|Re: ....oops... video here|Haidan's tall enough he could have stepped over that, couldn't he? From: aguysailing@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] ....oops... video here Sent: Mon, Jun 16, 2014 9:33:44 PM   ....here is that Haidan "Boilerflue" video  Comox Harbour BC Comox Harbour BC Video depicting skilled help available at this Comox anchorage. Haidan is about to install mast steps on my 36' Swain. View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo   | 31119|31101|2014-06-16 18:07:29|brentswain38|Re: Wheelchair Modification|I'm beginning to wonder why bring the wheelchair aboard at all? It is useless once aboard. A plank which lets  the wheelchair bound slide himself from his wheelchair on the dock to a cockpit seat would be more practical. Once aboard, he can slide himself to wherever he wants to be, by hand, with the help of a few innovations.| 31120|31096|2014-06-16 18:10:37|brentswain38|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|Go for the sch 40. It may be there longer than you planned. With such thick walls, you can bend it around trees or pilings without the wall collapsing. You don't need bending tools.Easier to weld too.| 31121|31116|2014-06-16 18:14:06|brentswain38|Re: .....ooops... here is that video|Try that with stock plastic boat lifelines!| 31122|31096|2014-06-17 09:22:21|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|Fence rail and electrical conduit I have seen is electro-galvanized, while schedule 40 pipe is hot dipped.  Most agree the latter is more durable in marine environment.| 31123|31096|2014-06-17 22:45:06|wild_explorer|Re: Safety (hand) rail from chain-link fence's top rail|I checked the specs (from manufacturer) for steel galvanized conduit (simply because it available in different diameter) and it is all hot galvanized.  Light grade is in-line galvanized, Rigid is hot-dip galvanized. Good info:FAQ | American Galvanizers Association FAQ | American Galvanizers Association The American Galvanizers Association (AGA) is a non-profit trade association dedicated to serving the needs of after-fabrication galvanizers, fabricators, architects, specifiers, and engineers. AGA provides technical support on today's innovative applications and stat... View on www.galvanizeit.org Preview by Yahoo  | 31124|31115|2014-06-18 17:06:17|brentswain38|Re: Comox Harbour BC Skilled Help|Another thanks to  Haidan for taking over all the work I didn't want to do. It was sure nice to have somebody as practical as him to hand it over to. It was enough work to wreck me. With pension about to arrive, the last thing I need is work.Full time play time for me, from this point on. Haidan let me retire without leaving people stranded.Many thanks Haidan.| 31125|31101|2014-06-18 17:41:51|mark|Re: Wheelchair Modification| hi how are u you could build a small crane to lift the person onto the boat and in to the cockpit then build a seat that swivels from side to side in the cockpit or a plank that has a sliding seat like row boats as to how to get the person into the cabin easily is a bit more complicated maybe a crane that folds down near the companionway so as not to interfere with boom   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 8:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification     Greetings all.   I'm starting construction on the 31 soon. Setting up shop now. A friend of mine (the second actually) is now confined to a wheelchair from diving into shallow water. I'd like to modify my Brent boat to be easily accessible for a wheelchair; I'm speaking of the cockpit and pilot house only. I've captained charter sail boat trips with folks in wheelchairs and using the boom as a crane is extremely awkward and time consuming, not to mention quite dangerous. Having to be carried aboard smacks on pride. I'd like to figure out something different. We'll (wheel?) be sailing together often, so it seems it would be worth figuring this out. I am open to just about any ideas out there. Thoughts? I don't have to make this modification, but it sure would be nice.   -Marlin| 31126|31101|2014-06-18 17:42:07|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Wheelchair Modification|I like where this idea is going. My friend and I are meeting up soon to discuss what's realistic for her and what's not, as far as getting around the boat goes. We'll see what we come up with. | 31127|31101|2014-06-18 17:42:35|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Wheelchair Modification|I had a similar thought. Do you think modifying the transom to be a gate would mess with the integrity of the design? I was imagining welding on a heavy duty "piano" hinge so the transom folds down, in effect making a ramp to the dock. It's the simplest method I could devise.| 31128|31101|2014-06-18 17:46:21|brentswain38|Re: Wheelchair Modification|There may be room between the corner of the transom and the rudder, to have a gate, and leave the rudder in position. If th ecorner of that gate went underwater when the boat heeled, it could be a problem.However, I still question the need to have the wheelchair aboard at all,when arrangements to get around on deck more easily without it, are an option.| 31129|31101|2014-06-18 17:48:45|brentswain38|Re: Wheelchair Modification|If the rudder were left intact, it would have no effect on the structural integrity of the boat. Drainage when heeled would  be the only question.| 31130|31101|2014-06-18 18:41:07|Barney Treadway|Re: Wheelchair Modification|Why build a crane when you have the boom? On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 5:21 AM, mark picomar1957@... [origamiboats] wrote:   hi how are u you could build a small crane to lift the person onto the boat and in to the cockpit then build a seat that swivels from side to side in the cockpit or a plank that has a sliding seat like row boats as to how to get the person into the cabin easily is a bit more complicated maybe a crane that folds down near the companionway so as not to interfere with boom   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 8:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification     Greetings all.   I'm starting construction on the 31 soon. Setting up shop now. A friend of mine (the second actually) is now confined to a wheelchair from diving into shallow water. I'd like to modify my Brent boat to be easily accessible for a wheelchair; I'm speaking of the cockpit and pilot house only. I've captained charter sail boat trips with folks in wheelchairs and using the boom as a crane is extremely awkward and time consuming, not to mention quite dangerous. Having to be carried aboard smacks on pride. I'd like to figure out something different. We'll (wheel?) be sailing together often, so it seems it would be worth figuring this out. I am open to just about any ideas out there. Thoughts? I don't have to make this modification, but it sure would be nice.   -Marlin | 31131|31131|2014-06-18 22:27:44|Steve Bennett|Cheque and Book|Brent, I was wondering if you had received the cheque I had mailed a couple of weeks ago for a copy of your book? Hopefully you have been out sailing instead of checking mail. Thanks, Steve| 31132|31101|2014-06-19 09:29:55|Aaron|Re: Wheelchair Modification|Mount a monorail to the inside roof it could slide out of the companionway. I believe it was Gordon that has picture of how he built one for his engine.  From: "mark picomar1957@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification   hi how are u you could build a small crane to lift the person onto the boat and in to the cockpit then build a seat that swivels from side to side in the cockpit or a plank that has a sliding seat like row boats as to how to get the person into the cabin easily is a bit more complicated maybe a crane that folds down near the companionway so as not to interfere with boom   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 8:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification     Greetings all.   I'm starting construction on the 31 soon. Setting up shop now. A friend of mine (the second actually) is now confined to a wheelchair from diving into shallow water. I'd like to modify my Brent boat to be easily accessible for a wheelchair; I'm speaking of the cockpit and pilot house only. I've captained charter sail boat trips with folks in wheelchairs and using the boom as a crane is extremely awkward and time consuming, not to mention quite dangerous. Having to be carried aboard smacks on pride. I'd like to figure out something different. We'll (wheel?) be sailing together often, so it seems it would be worth figuring this out. I am open to just about any ideas out there. Thoughts? I don't have to make this modification, but it sure would be nice.   -Marlin #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 -- #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576activity span .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 dd.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 dd.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 dd.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576last p span.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 div#ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 .ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 input, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576 #ygrps-yiv-437400441yiv5920071576ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-437400441 | 31133|31101|2014-06-19 10:43:11|Matt Malone|Re: Wheelchair Modification| Marlin, Once aboard the boat, there is the question of restraint.  As this is your friend, you could ask him how he prefers it.   I will pass on that I have done some work with public vehicles.  If those in a chair can attach and detach the restraints themselves, most want to use restraints in public vehicles.   If someone else has to do the restraint for them, then, most prefer not to use restraints.  In buses, one municipality has tall vertical cushioned rear-ward facing lean pads, about a foot wide and 5 feet tall, mounted so that the passenger may park their chair against them, facing backwards and ride with no restraints.   Separately, a lawyer I know has a system like an up-side-down 5th wheel (tractor-trailer interface) just imagine the horseshoe shaped receiver on the bottom of the trailer instead of the top of the truck bed, and the stud or post from the bottom of the trailer being on the truck instead.   For his setup, he has the receiver on the bottom of his chair and a stud on the floor of his van where the driver's seat would be -- he drives sitting in his wheelchair.  He can somehow engage and disengage himself, yet, he is held firmly while driving.   An option for boarding or getting over the threshold of the pilot house is a gang-plank.   I caution you not to underestimate the total weight of the person and chair, particularly if it is one of those large battery powered ones favoured by quadriplegics with some limited hand movement.   In one case, the total weight was approximately 550 pounds.   You might take some ideas from the loading ramps people use to ride their very large ATV / quad cycle into the back of a pickup truck.   And the truck is not moving.Speaking of weight, 550 pounds in a high cockpit, would be like two football players who move half way to the wrong side on each tack.   The effect on handling may be unexpected.   Getting inside should be considered safety gear, so, if a solution that does not smack on pride will not work in 100% of cases, then, have a backup plan that will get him and his chair inside that is certain to get the job done.   I am reluctant to suggest any sort of free rolling or free swinging rail / gantry / boom system -- this is the weakness of using the main boom to lift weights -- in poor conditions, the boom swing may be difficult to control.   I would lean toward a rail system with a locking cross-pin, so that, the point of suspension can be completely fixed relative to the boat during all or parts of the operation.   Something like an upside-down locking boom traveller, where the position of the traveller car can be determined by separate blocks would be a good idea too.   Then one can pull the point of suspension "up hill" to the desired location while under load in an unfavourable tack, and prevent the point of suspension running the length of the track if the boat tilts suddenly during the manoeuvre.   Again, if your friend has ample strength in his arms and a light, sport chair, Plan A might be a swing bar that he can lift both himself and his chair into the pilothouse.  He might use this 99% of the time if he has the strength in his arms.   Ramps and a two parallel grab rails might help those with significant arm strength to pull the chair up over the threshold of the pilot house.   In both cases, I would have a backup plan.   An unexpected motion in the course of sailing, a pulled shoulder muscle while holding on, it is not hard to suffer a minor strain-type injury that would eliminate plan A as an option, without the conditions being particularly poor.  You need a plan B.    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 06:29:54 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification   Mount a monorail to the inside roof it could slide out of the companionway. I believe it was Gordon that has picture of how he built one for his engine.  From: "mark picomar1957@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification   hi how are u you could build a small crane to lift the person onto the boat and in to the cockpit then build a seat that swivels from side to side in the cockpit or a plank that has a sliding seat like row boats as to how to get the person into the cabin easily is a bit more complicated maybe a crane that folds down near the companionway so as not to interfere with boom   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 8:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Wheelchair Modification     Greetings all.   I'm starting construction on the 31 soon. Setting up shop now. A friend of mine (the second actually) is now confined to a wheelchair from diving into shallow water. I'd like to modify my Brent boat to be easily accessible for a wheelchair; I'm speaking of the cockpit and pilot house only. I've captained charter sail boat trips with folks in wheelchairs and using the boom as a crane is extremely awkward and time consuming, not to mention quite dangerous. Having to be carried aboard smacks on pride. I'd like to figure out something different. We'll (wheel?) be sailing together often, so it seems it would be worth figuring this out. I am open to just about any ideas out there. Thoughts? I don't have to make this modification, but it sure would be nice.   -Marlin | 31134|31101|2014-06-20 00:17:04|Norm Facey|Re: Wheelchair Modification| I was thinking about a side mounted boarding ramp - hinge a 2'x2' platform off one side of the boat, and then hinge a boarding ramp from that running towards the bow. The whole thing would fold up against the stanchions for sailing, and there would be no interference with the transom/rudder.- might want to trim the bulwark down to seat level to eliminate that barrier, don't believe that creates any structural issuesGetting the wheelchair down into the cockpit could be as easy as having a rope or a rope ladder hung off the boom over the cockpit - if the person is arm strong enough to lower themselves. If not, then using block & tackle off the boom should be relatively easy & safe for the height/area involved.Getting a person in a chair down into the boat is more of a challenge. How wide is the chair - is there any working clearance at your hatch? Would using the same block and tackle off the boom be acceptable to lower the chair? - if you wanted to have the chair borne person in control, you could use a 12v winch with a pendant.Neat projectNorm| 31135|31131|2014-06-20 19:55:34|brentswain38|Re: Cheque and Book|Yes, I sent your book several days ago. Let me know when you get it.Thanks| 31136|31101|2014-06-20 19:56:08|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Wheelchair Modification|Monorail is an interesting idea, for moving in and out of the pilot house. I'm not into modifying the structure of the boat (the transom). A seaworthy vessel is more important to me than a wheelchair ramp. I agree with Brent, once the chairs on board it's useless.  A crane is interesting, but why a crane when there is a boom? Perhaps the best option would be to figure out a sliding seat in the cockpit and a much more improved lift setup for the boom.  Regardless, it will be awhile before I get to that point, so there is a lot of time to weigh options. Thanks for the input. | 31137|31101|2014-06-21 19:47:10|brentswain38|Re: Wheelchair Modification|Norms idea sounds a good one. I once saw that gangplank used to get a huge dog into an inflatable. A 12 inch square piece of 3/4 inch plywood with four coasters , one on each corner, could be far more useful than a wheel chair.  One could simply put ones ass on it and cruise around the deck and cockpit, then take it out  to avoid slipping around by surprise. The solid lifelines and handrails should make it easy to pull ones self around the decks and cockpit, far more easily than in a wheelchair. Kneeling on it gets ones legs out of the way.| 31138|31101|2014-06-21 20:56:09|Matt Malone|Re: Wheelchair Modification| No matter how useless the chair is once aboard, the people I know who use one, are very attached to it.   For them it is reliable mobility and they are reluctant to give it up.  Also, what you do not realize is, the seats in chairs are not just seats.  They often have very special padding or pads added to them because pressure sores (bedsores) and the following infection are typically what kills off mobility restricted people.   It is like pneumonia for old people, except pressure sores take wheelchair-bound people in their 50's and 60's if they are not really really careful about what they sit on and lay on.  Even being careful is no guarantee.  There are a lot of amputations for those who end up with an out of control sore.  To sleep, some require a special multi-chamber air-mattress where the chambers slowly inflate and deflate out of phase with each other, to gently and constantly shift weight.   Others can sleep on a special pad, fancier than memory foam.   If you have him in a seat or suspension system that is not his chair, plan a short outing for the first time.  Let him get home to his spouse/caregiver/attendent and have a couple days to make sure everything is fine.  Some people do not want to talk about sores and might be prone to beg off in future without explaining. You have the ability to talk to your friend and see what works for him.   Matt    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 16:47:10 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wheelchair Modification   Norms idea sounds a good one. I once saw that gangplank used to get a huge dog into an inflatable. A 12 inch square piece of 3/4 inch plywood with four coasters , one on each corner, could be far more useful than a wheel chair.  One could simply put ones ass on it and cruise around the deck and cockpit, then take it out  to avoid slipping around by surprise. The solid lifelines and handrails should make it easy to pull ones self around the decks and cockpit, far more easily than in a wheelchair. Kneeling on it gets ones legs out of the way. | 31139|31101|2014-06-23 16:47:49|brentswain38|Re: Wheelchair Modification|A wheeelchair bound friend had bed sores until he started adding  a spoonful of coconut oil a day to his diet. No more bed sores since. It also stopped hardened cracking skin from forming on my feet in summer.| 31140|31140|2014-06-25 18:02:14|clove3clove|Travel tips for Vancouver Island|My partner and I have just begun building our own BS 31 footer.  Although we have poured over the photographs, we live in the Midwest and it's time to finally see some of these boats in person.  Naturally, travelling to the western coast of Canada seems like the way to go. If Comox is the destination, it looks like flying into Vancouver International, taking the Horseshoe/Departure Bay ferry to Nanaimo, then winging it (hitching) the last hundred clicks north.  There doesn't appear to be any public transit between Nanaimo and Comox.If Comox is not the destination, where should we go to see these boats and the community that inevitably follows?Ultimately, we're looking to check out a BS, talk shop, and make a friend or two.  Thanks!Here's a link to some of the various adventures/misadventures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/whatsthescoop/| 31141|31131|2014-06-26 14:26:13|Steve Bennett|Re: Cheque and Book|Hi Brent,Got the book and really enjoying it.Thanks,Steve On Jun 20, 2014, at 5:55 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, I sent your book several days ago. Let me know when you get it.Thanks | 31142|31140|2014-06-26 14:36:54|Mark Hamill|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island| Greyhound from Nanaimo and a couple of other bus or van options.   Renting a car might be a good idea especially if you wanted to camp in some of the local parks.such as Miracle Beach www.bcparks.com   Might be hard to find a National Park camp http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/pn-np/bc/pacificrim/visit/visit4c.aspx site on Tofino--it is a huge tourist spot. but there are private campgrounds in Tofino and Ucluelet and the Dolphin Motel http://www.dolphinmotel.ca/ is really a great price tofino.tripadvisor.ca/.   Lots of local hostels in Courtenay if you want and the Anco Motel https://www.ancomotelbc.com/ has cheaper rooms with kitchenettes. Contact Travel BC www.travel.bc.ca    Lots to do and see. When you arrive let me know and visit my Brent boat in my front yard.   Mark H mhamill1@...| 31143|31140|2014-06-26 15:25:58|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Moon Raven may be still in Courtenay slough , or at the Comox Government dock .Silas Crosby was at the Comox Government  dock last time I was there. Two more 36 footers are anchored west of the Comox marinas and condos. You can walk around them at low tide. Another 36 is being built on 2nd avenue in Courtenay. . Another is just off 26th avenue in Courtenay. Andy may have his 36 back on his mooring  behind Comox spit.I'll be on Cortes Island , in Manson's lagoon ,or in Heriot Bay on Quadra Island. I'll go back to Heriot Bay if you give me lots of advance notice of when you will  be there,| 31144|31140|2014-06-26 15:53:55|lae52|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Where are you in the Midwest? A lot of your photos look like Wisconsin.Dave - Madison, Wi.| 31145|31140|2014-06-26 16:21:20|clove3clove|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Dave, good eye!  I live in Washburn, Wisconsin which is a short roll down hill to Lake Superior.All of these tips and places to go are very helpful.   There's still some logistics to figure out, but I'm really looking forward to getting into Canada again!-Susan| 31146|31140|2014-06-27 12:15:30|Norm Facey|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Or just look up "Westjet" and fly directly into Comox...... Sent from my iPad| 31147|31140|2014-07-01 16:08:45|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I'll be in Heriot  Bay on Quadra Island for the next few days.| 31148|31140|2014-07-02 17:50:01|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Keep track of your expenses as you build (materials, tools, other costs, etc.). It will be good to see some real numbers compared to the time of progress. Will you guys be keeping a blog?| 31149|31140|2014-07-03 13:05:46|theboilerflue|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|You should definitely come by here on Quadra, I'm in Harriet bay re-doing the interior, Brent's across the way and theres a another hull going together on the island. Hitching is certainly the best way to get around on vancouver island for cheap, the ferries will ding you enough. Nanaimo to Campbell River is about a 2-3 hour hitch, it's an easy place to hitch people pick up hitchhikers with much less the taboo about it than you find elsewhere, don't pat any attention to the signs claiming it's illicitness - they're total bullshit. The ferry to Quadra is right downtown Campbell River| 31150|31140|2014-07-03 20:31:27|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I also meant to ask, why do you guys want to build when there are several on the market for really cheap?| 31151|31140|2014-07-03 20:34:33|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Most of those on the market are single keelers with no wheelhouse, and wooden hatches . Most of my clients these days want twin keelers with wheelhouses, and inside steering. While adding a wheelhouse is simple ,switching to twin keels is definitely not.| 31152|31140|2014-07-03 20:47:33|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|The signs clearly violate the constitution. I convinced one highways minister to not put them up, but when a right winger became premier, they went up within days| 31153|31153|2014-07-04 17:39:23|heretic_37ft|Haul out BS 36|http://www.backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/cross-training-for-float-flying-this-summer-the-hard-way-15292| 31154|31140|2014-07-04 18:31:34|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|What about this one?1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States 1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale i... Monitor wind vane, autopilot, wind generator, solar charger, radar, Garmin chart plotter, EPIRB, SCUBA gear, Sardine solid fuel stove, 2 new deep c... View on www.sailboatlistings.com Preview by Yahoo  It's only $23k!!!! (you could probably have it for under $20K - it's been on the market quite a long time) and has the twin keels. I'm sure that's far less than it cost them to build it. Plus it's got some great equipment that goes with it that cost thousands more (radar, chart plotter, AP, SSB, and more) . That value alone would pay for the addition of a wheelhouse if you just had to have one.If you want to be out cruising in a Brent Swain yacht - this would make far more sense than spending all that time and money building one. Get out there and have some adventures instead of welding and dreaming!That's the way I look at it anyway.| 31155|31140|2014-07-04 18:34:12|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|That is George Hones old boat, an excellent deal. George built her after crewing with Winston thru the NW passage. He was working for West Marine , at the time so he got  a lot of good deals with some great equipment .Go for it.| 31156|31156|2014-07-04 18:38:31|brentswain38|Kim Bushnell in Sail Magazine|The latest issue of Sail magazine ( July 2014) has a great article on Winston's daughter Kim and Arnie cruising Mexico in her 27 foot  brentboat.That is the 4th brentboat in that family, based on a huge amount of offshore experience.| 31157|31140|2014-07-05 13:04:40|haidan|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|That is that swain that sold on ebay about five years ago around the time I was building mine, it went for about 20k back then with all the equipment and diving gear, totally loaded. I believe that was the boat that guy that did the north west passage with winston, george something rather he wrote one of the books about that trip.| 31158|31140|2014-07-07 14:20:02|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I just can't imagine losing that much money (and time) on a boat. It's outright frightening. Purchasing just the steel alone for your own build would be over half that amount! Then you've got the years of work to get it built and finished out, and that doesn't even touch the cost of the gear and equipment!Building a steel boat is not a smart move. Buying a used one like this and letting the other guy lose his shirt while you go cruising? That's a smart move.| 31159|31140|2014-07-07 14:21:27|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I've listed the pros and cons of building your own boat in my book. It has been done in months not always years.| 31160|31140|2014-07-07 22:59:42|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|That all depends on if you want to go sailing or build a boat Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island Sent: Sun, Jul 6, 2014 1:08:22 AM   I just can't imagine losing that much money (and time) on a boat. It's outright frightening. Purchasing just the steel alone for your own build would be over half that amount! Then you've got the years of work to get it built and finished out, and that doesn't even touch the cost of the gear and equipment!Building a steel boat is not a smart move. Buying a used one like this and letting the other guy lose his shirt while you go cruising? That's a smart move. | 31161|31140|2014-07-08 01:00:52|Hannu Venermo|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Boats are never a smart move. They are using disposable income, as much or more than you have, often until the income is reduced. Weather its worth it depends. If you enjoy it, then I think its a smart move. As Otherwise, what would you do ? Well, theres always wimmen and booze, but.. On 08/07/2014 04:59, 'akenai@...' akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Building a steel boat is not a smart move. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31162|31140|2014-07-08 14:18:16|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|BULLSHIT! I have owned my own home, debt free  since my early 20's. That would have  been impossible, had my home been anything  other than a boat. People living on my boats say it is the most comfortable  home they have ever lived in. Being debt free, and requiring a far less  money  flowing in, adds greatly to the comfort level,.I met a couple in Mexico in 1988 for  whom I had built a 31 footer , in 83.They told me "The boat is free. What it would have cost us to live ashore, combined with the traveling we have done, has saved us far more money than building the boat ever cost us. We could lose the boat on a reef and walk away ,and we would still  be a lot of money ahead of where we would be , had we never built the boat." After selling my last boat, the new owner said, with a recession on, he was laughing. No mater what the economy did, he still had a warm and comfortable home, debt free, in his boat, and didn't need a lot of income to carry on living debt free.| 31163|31140|2014-07-08 14:22:55|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I'm amazed at the short sightedness of people who , when they get in financial difficulty,  sell their boat ,and thus their means of  living  cheaply, to keep their houses,  which demand a constant and large flow of money coming in. The opposite would be far more logical.| 31164|31140|2014-07-08 14:55:33|Hannu Venermo|Re: Living costs on boat and off boat| Hi Brent .. Yes, and very much no- it depends. I live in Spain, atm, and have a wife and child. Because of above, and her work etc. we cannot, atm, easily move to say thailand. In Spain, near Barcelona, a slip costs 300-500€/month. Expenses are 100-200€ on top of that. Mooring is impossible (near Bcn) and mostly not permitted. A house costs us 750+tax, about the same as the boat slip alone. It would not be possible to work from the boat, and a parking (required if near boat, due to work) place is extra 200€/month. My total costs living from a boat would be much higher than the current ones, by about 800€/mo. I would need 2 extra parking places, and a rented workshop. My 150 sq m workshop is part of the house costs, and is included in the 750 monthly cost, as is the 380V 14 kW 3-phase electricity line for cnc machinery. And the studio for my wife. Its why I dont have a boat, atm. Its the 500€/mo slip costs, basically. Most people are tied to a location due to relatives, work, school, kids. When we move onto the boat, it will be a displacement power cruiser. My monthly costs will remain the same, about 1000€/month. This is necessitated by her and my work, which makes it a firm requirement. We dont mind the cost, on its own, we just dont want to pay for 2 of them. As another extreme, eg in Finland, a 24 m houseboat slip on a lake can cost 1500/yr. Thats total yearly cost (+electricity consumed). If one needs dishwashers, clothes driers, a studio, 3-phase electricity, waste disposal, showers, guest rooms, terrace and a barbie, living on a boat is or can be very expensive. These may be needed by work (entertainment, visitors, meetings) family (visitors) or type of work. A horse vet could not easily work from a boat, for example (trailers etc). I myself need real electric power, and a bit of space (displacement cruiser is plenty). On 08/07/2014 20:22, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I'm amazed at the short sightedness of people who , when they get in financial difficulty,  sell their boat ,and thus their means of  living  cheaply, to keep their houses,  which demand a constant and large flow of money coming in. The opposite would be far more logical. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31165|31140|2014-07-08 15:13:48|Matt Malone|Re: Living costs on boat and off boat| Yeah, I have to agree with Hanermo.  It very much depends.  I have a rural property where my ocean boat is on the hard.   I will remind everyone, you can sleep and cook in a boat that is not in the water.   In fact a little trailer sailor is a travel trailer that can get wet.   The incremental cost of my boat being on my rural property is zero.   Even the taxes (the only other cost of the property) are a small fraction of the costs Hanermo is talking about.   I have better access to electricity and fresh water, and food than I would in most zero-cost anchorages.   And I have a building called a cabin that is more spacious and very well heated with wood, and has no water in the bilge.  If its size where ever inconvienently small, in most seasons, I could knock-together an good-sized addition to the cabin in a weekend for a couple thousand.  I might even call it a cottage then.   It is true my cabin, property and boat are immobile at this point, however, if we are just talking about living costs, in exclusion of some other very large factors, there it is.  If I were to have a slip, the minimum cost would be about $3,500 / year at the cheapest marina I know if, easily over $8,000 / year at more full-featured ones.  And, it is a challenge to live on a boat in a Toronto winter.   Most marinas do not allow live-aboards or year-round live-aboards in Toronto.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 20:55:31 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Living costs on boat and off boat   Hi Brent .. Yes, and very much no- it depends. I live in Spain, atm, and have a wife and child. Because of above, and her work etc. we cannot, atm, easily move to say thailand. In Spain, near Barcelona, a slip costs 300-500€/month. Expenses are 100-200€ on top of that. Mooring is impossible (near Bcn) and mostly not permitted. A house costs us 750+tax, about the same as the boat slip alone. It would not be possible to work from the boat, and a parking (required if near boat, due to work) place is extra 200€/month. My total costs living from a boat would be much higher than the current ones, by about 800€/mo. I would need 2 extra parking places, and a rented workshop. My 150 sq m workshop is part of the house costs, and is included in the 750 monthly cost, as is the 380V 14 kW 3-phase electricity line for cnc machinery. And the studio for my wife. Its why I dont have a boat, atm. Its the 500€/mo slip costs, basically. Most people are tied to a location due to relatives, work, school, kids. When we move onto the boat, it will be a displacement power cruiser. My monthly costs will remain the same, about 1000€/month. This is necessitated by her and my work, which makes it a firm requirement. We dont mind the cost, on its own, we just dont want to pay for 2 of them. As another extreme, eg in Finland, a 24 m houseboat slip on a lake can cost 1500/yr. Thats total yearly cost (+electricity consumed). If one needs dishwashers, clothes driers, a studio, 3-phase electricity, waste disposal, showers, guest rooms, terrace and a barbie, living on a boat is or can be very expensive. These may be needed by work (entertainment, visitors, meetings) family (visitors) or type of work. A horse vet could not easily work from a boat, for example (trailers etc). I myself need real electric power, and a bit of space (displacement cruiser is plenty). On 08/07/2014 20:22, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I'm amazed at the short sightedness of people who , when they get in financial difficulty,  sell their boat ,and thus their means of  living  cheaply, to keep their houses,  which demand a constant and large flow of money coming in. The opposite would be far more logical. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31166|31140|2014-07-08 16:01:56|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I bought a house for the first time when I was about 46.   It was only by living cheap on a boat for many years that I was able to afford it without a high screwy mortgage.  All of my friends who lived the "normal" life, are still mortgaged to the hilt in an endless cycle of buying more stuff, upsizing and leveraging up continually with more debt.   They will have to keep working until their 60s or 70s.I will sell my house and move back full time on my boat.   I will make money on the house because it was a fixer-upper but financially it is/was not worth the work.   Everyone thinks real estate is a great investment but if you crunch the numbers, it really isn't.   I would have been better off just buying some gold or a basket of stocks.   Houses suck up your money like a vacuum and demand that you have more "stuff" to keep them maintained and groomed.  Renting is almost as bad and is money lost.  With boats so cheap, it makes a world of sense to live on one, especially if you can live on the hook away from marinas.  The only exception may be if you have a large family or have a job that demands you live onshore.I may buy a house again in a few years but it will be a cheap, low maintenance rental with a workshop in a nice vacation area like Russel, NZ.  I will live on the boat and pay someone to look after the house when it is rented and I go sailing offshore.  I will keep use of the workshop and also use it for storage.  This is the plan.....we shall see.| 31167|31140|2014-07-08 16:20:10|brentswain38|Re: Living costs on boat and off boat|Tried to reply , but after typing up a long  message , it kept disappearing . Fuck it , I'll try later| 31168|31140|2014-07-08 18:35:45|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Paul, you hit the nail on the head with this:"With boats so cheap, it makes a world of sense to live on one, especially if you can live on the hook away from marinas.  The only exception may be if you have a large family or have a job that demands you live onshore."This also applies to building a boat versus buying a used one that has already lost most of its value like the Swainboat linked above.This used, but ready-to-sail Swainboat can be bought for MUCH LESS than you could ever build it for (with plenty of others on the market). Why in heaven's name would you ever build one, supporting its costs AND all the land-based costs surrounding it while you build? The only way that even comes close to working is if you have no job or family, and the place where your boat is being built is provided for free, and tools are lent to you, etc.Matt's situation is about as good as it can get for someone building their own boat. He's doing it right I think.The numbers for building and living on a Swainboat cheap and easy just don't add up. In a very small number of circumstances it can work. But it's far more of a gamble than I would ever like to take.I think this is an important discussion for people like Clove who are looking at the options.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I bought a house for the first time when I was about 46.   It was only by living cheap on a boat for many years that I was able to afford it without a high screwy mortgage.  All of my friends who lived the "normal" life, are still mortgaged to the hilt in an endless cycle of buying more stuff, upsizing and leveraging up continually with more debt.   They will have to keep working until their 60s or 70s.I will sell my house and move back full time on my boat.   I will make money on the house because it was a fixer-upper but financially it is/was not worth the work.   Everyone thinks real estate is a great investment but if you crunch the numbers, it really isn't.   I would have been better off just buying some gold or a basket of stocks.   Houses suck up your money like a vacuum and demand that you have more "stuff" to keep them maintained and groomed.  Renting is almost as bad and is money lost.  With boats so cheap, it makes a world of sense to live on one, especially if you can live on the hook away from marinas.  The only exception may be if you have a large family or have a job that demands you live onshore.I may buy a house again in a few years but it will be a cheap, low maintenance rental with a workshop in a nice vacation area like Russel, NZ.  I will live on the boat and pay someone to look after the house when it is rented and I go sailing offshore.  I will keep use of the workshop and also use it for storage.  This is the plan.....we shall see.| 31169|31140|2014-07-08 20:29:53|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I agree.  I am glad I built my boat but it is much different now than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago.   I would only build a boat if I absolutely had to/ wanted to/ needed to do it.....it must be a labor of love.  I think if anyone can dissuade you or you aren't absolutely sure you want to do it, then don't start because you aren't motivated enough.Sorry to be repetitive but the economics nowadays make no sense.   You are much better to buy a used boat, fix it up and go sailing.  You will get a ton of gear and be sailing in a few weeks or months while expending a fraction of the amount of work. This is especially true if you are willing to travel and go to remote areas where the deals are best.   A lot of boats are basically abandoned because people have no skills and can't afford to pay for repairs.  People are also getting older and I come across desperate sellers who are trying to get rid of boats for health reasons all the time.  Anyone who spends some time looking online and looks around at what is available in used boats comes to the same conclusion.  Once my house is gone, my wife and I are going to go backpacking and do a bit of a world tour looking at boats.  We will probably start in California and Mexico and then work our way east to the Caribbean, the east coast and Europe.   SE Asia is another possibility.  I can fly there for a few hundred dollars and it is very cheap to backpack once you are there.    A lot of boats are stuck there now because they don't want to go west through the Red Sea or around South Africa and have abandoned their circumnavigation.   The marinas there used to be very cheap but they are filling up and the costs are rising.  The people who thought they could live on pennies a day in SE Asia, Mexico and the Caribbean are also finding it harder.  Most countries don't allow you to work and there is no money to be made off fellow cruisers so people are forced to go back to where the jobs are.....Anyway, I might find something bigger I like....sailing it to NZ over a year or two would be a lot of fun and I could flip it in NZ and probably be about break even if I fix it up a bit along the way and it wasn't my dream boat.  If I don't find something, I can always just keep what I have since I love my Swain 36.  Worst case is we are out a few thousand dollars and we will have seen some parts of the world we haven't really seen yet.  Life is good.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Paul, you hit the nail on the head with this:"With boats so cheap, it makes a world of sense to live on one, especially if you can live on the hook away from marinas.  The only exception may be if you have a large family or have a job that demands you live onshore."This also applies to building a boat versus buying a used one that has already lost most of its value like the Swainboat linked above.This used, but ready-to-sail Swainboat can be bought for MUCH LESS than you could ever build it for (with plenty of others on the market). Why in heaven's name would you ever build one, supporting its costs AND all the land-based costs surrounding it while you build? The only way that even comes close to working is if you have no job or family, and the place where your boat is being built is provided for free, and tools are lent to you, etc.Matt's situation is about as good as it can get for someone building their own boat. He's doing it right I think.The numbers for building and living on a Swainboat cheap and easy just don't add up. In a very small number of circumstances it can work. But it's far more of a gamble than I would ever like to take.I think this is an important discussion for people like Clove who are looking at the options.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I bought a house for the first time when I was about 46.   It was only by living cheap on a boat for many years that I was able to afford it without a high screwy mortgage.  All of my friends who lived the "normal" life, are still mortgaged to the hilt in an endless cycle of buying more stuff, upsizing and leveraging up continually with more debt.   They will have to keep working until their 60s or 70s.I will sell my house and move back full time on my boat.   I will make money on the house because it was a fixer-upper but financially it is/was not worth the work.   Everyone thinks real estate is a great investment but if you crunch the numbers, it really isn't.   I would have been better off just buying some gold or a basket of stocks.   Houses suck up your money like a vacuum and demand that you have more "stuff" to keep them maintained and groomed.  Renting is almost as bad and is money lost.  With boats so cheap, it makes a world of sense to live on one, especially if you can live on the hook away from marinas.  The only exception may be if you have a large family or have a job that demands you live onshore.I may buy a house again in a few years but it will be a cheap, low maintenance rental with a workshop in a nice vacation area like Russel, NZ.  I will live on the boat and pay someone to look after the house when it is rented and I go sailing offshore.  I will keep use of the workshop and also use it for storage.  This is the plan.....we shall see.| 31170|31170|2014-07-08 20:48:10|Larry Dale|Living on a boat|There is more than economics involved in the decision to live on a boat. When you have a house that doesn't move the authorities can tax it, they can take it (expropriation ) or do anything else they want to you. My neighbor lady who is a widow has been threatened with property standards infractions if she doesn't reside her house. She was bullied into redoing her roof last year and she can't afford it. On the other hand in Florida a number of years ago a county threatened to tax all the live-aboards anchored in the bay and within a week they were all gone. The county did themselves out of the grocery/gas and other revenue the boaters brought to the community. I bought a plastic trailer sailor (Kent Ranger 26) a number of years ago to take the family out on annual holidays to improve family unity. Nothing like getting the kids away from land based activities and being together on a boat to make memories together. I envy Brent who is free from a lot of the constraints of this present evil world where the working man who built society is oppressed by those we have allowed to be in authority. As this society winds down and people become more desperate and the police become more violent we may all want to live on a boat.| 31171|31140|2014-07-08 22:08:37|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|"Sorry to be repetitive but the economics nowadays make no sense.   You are much better to buy a used boat, fix it up and go sailing.  You will get a ton of gear and be sailing in a few weeks or months while expending a fraction of the amount of work."Totally agree, Paul.As for the rest of your post, that sounds like a plan! When you are looking around - will you only look at steel boats again?| 31172|31140|2014-07-08 22:50:45|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|My preference is a metal boat.  I like the aluminum alloy boats from France...the type that are thick skinned  with no  paint and that are extremely tough.  The problem with them is that they are usually really expensive.  Steel is a great material but there are a lot of poorly built steel boats around that are rust traps.  I have seen a few and the brokers try to excuse it by saying "all steel boats have rust".   This is a lie because my 36 was launched in 1992 and is rust free.    Brent has a great design.  If you do it right there are no hidden spots and hidden pockets that are hard to get at with standing water.  If it is done right, I don't mind a little bit of rust on the outside since that is easy to fix but rust on the inside is a big problem.  If you have to start ripping out the interior, it isn't worth it.I am open to some of the very tough older fiberglass boats but they are hard to find.  Most of the newer designs are not tough enough and I want to sleep at night.   Whatever the material, it must be able to hit something at hull speed without being holed and still sail well with the capability of going to windward in a gale.  I don't want a big fat tub.  I am pretty picky.If I was on a real budget, the Swain 31 footer in Mexico might be a fantastic boat.http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/35565If I was a millionaire, I would love to have this boat....she would be big, comfortable, relatively low maintenance and still easily single-handed.  Too bad she is so far out of my price range :(.2000 Antarctic Aluminum Sailboat Custom Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com 2000 Antarctic Aluminum Sailboat Custom Sail Boat F... 2000 Antarctic Aluminum Sailboat Custom Sail boat for sale, located in Florida, FORT LAUDERDALE View on www.yachtworld.com Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :"Sorry to be repetitive but the economics nowadays make no sense.   You are much better to buy a used boat, fix it up and go sailing.  You will get a ton of gear and be sailing in a few weeks or months while expending a fraction of the amount of work."Totally agree, Paul.As for the rest of your post, that sounds like a plan! When you are looking around - will you only look at steel boats again?| 31173|31140|2014-07-08 22:56:02|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Here is another one....an older design in Fiji but it looks like you wouldn't need much to go sailing.  22,000 NZD is just over 19,000 USD.   Alan Buchanan designs aren't speed demons but they are supposed to be very well behaved.33' steel yacht Alan Buchanan 33' steel yacht Alan Buchanan PRICE REDUCED!! DON'T MISS IT!!!!!!! Very good conditions, huge refit 2013, the yacht is in Fiji Island, permanently imported in Fiji. View on www.trademe.co.nz Preview by Yahoo  | 31174|31140|2014-07-09 02:03:26|Hannu Venermo|Re: Fixing boats in remote places|Opusnz... I have travelled and worked and done business in, and currently do business, and lived in and imported stuff into mexico, china, south east asia, and latin american countries. Have you ever imported anything into one of these ? Your plan is good, but note you will spend about 4000$ in various import fees and VAT (a balanced avg) to fix a (single, 12 m, sail, used) boat. Plus transport of items, tools and pieces. Plus the items themselves. There is no way around it, and trying will get you into lots of trouble. All the rest of the world has VAT, due on arrival into the country. Among other things. This means whenever you bring in something into the country, at the border you pay about 25% of value of goods. The customs know the value of goods, and falsifying paperwork is not a good idea. I have about 25 years experience in international import/export, fwiw, and do this continuously. I also speak spanish, a requisite to lower costs. Some points to take into account: Boat components cost about 3x more outside the US. All tools and power cords are different, 220V single phase, totally different to the US. Unless you are familiar with industrial manufacturing and sourcing, all costs are 3-10x higher than in the US. There is NO network of easy-to-buy stuff like McMaster Carr outside the US, almost anywhere. The costs of fixing a boat outside the US will spiral out of control because, mostly, you cannot conveniently get sealants, hatches, wire, connectors, cables, pliers, switches, hoses, barbs, plumbing, locks, latches, through hulls, motors, gears, bearings, lubricants and other important items. Unless you have a local company, import license, tax numbers, belong to various unions/trade councils/guild etc. as the case may be (it varies), and buy wholesale in 20-100 pieces/lot. If you need to buy retail, the costs may easily be 10x us boat item retail costs. Note often availability is very slow, 1-2-3 weeks delivery, with heavy costs. 1/10 packages get lost, unless you use industrial DHL (DHL supply chain services, et al), and you have no recourse. OTOH.. if you are poor, have plenty of time, can spend time with the locals, and can communicate effectively, local NON YACHT work is often extremely cheap, and of outstanding quality. So if you need say something welded and ground and painted, and are not in a hurry, it can be done well and cheap anywhere, *if you know how*. The last part is critical. At the boat yard, it can cost 2000$. Done in a week. Maybe. At the local fixit, NOT AT THE HARBOUR, it will cost 100$ or less. Done, often, same day. The local fixit will not be on the web or in a phone book. A boat cannot be taken there, btw. There are ways to lower single-item costs and duties, but total paperwork cost does not go down. If you do a single shipment (size and mass immaterial, can be 5000 kg if you want, or a container full or empty of stuff) for about 2000-3000$ (fees, brokerage, permits) and 1-2 weeks paperwork you actually can get A single shipment of stuff into the country for you yourself working on your boat, without paying VAT. Local brokerage/transport agencies will usually need to be involved, unless you are a professional in the sector, and even then to an extent. Shipping a container is about 2000-3000$ anywhere into the world. A single pallet of stuff can be mostly be got into anywhere for about 1000-2000$. (Sometimes a lot less, depends). Note new shiny boat stuff and tools will attract sticky fingers unbelievably. Safe storage is rare and hard to find, and not free. The good part is that living is easy, free and cheap. Food is cheap, varied, and fantastic. My experiences are based on hong kong, china, africa (tunisia), honduras, grand cayman, thailand, malaysia, spain (where I live), mexico, uk, us, malta, sicilia (not italy) scandinavia and all over europe, over about 25 years professionally and for fun. I have a wife (and 6 month baby) who will happily go (and has gone) with me into any of these places, has travelled more than me and speaks 7 languages. The value of a reliable honest capable partner, who can watch over stuff, and get stuff done, is not small. Being alone its a lot harder in many ways, as you cannot watch one thing while getting another thing done. Waits are often long, and needed paperwork is illogical. We live(d) off getting paperwork done for others, so have more experience in this than most. All above must be contrasted with your level of desire to camp out and suffer hardous duty and conditions. If shade-tree-mechanic and good-enough and hammer-to-fit is sufficient, costs can be very low. This is otoh generally not the idea of wives or girlfriends long term. On 09/07/2014 02:29, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > The people who thought they could live on pennies a day in SE Asia, > Mexico and the Caribbean are also finding it harder. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31175|31140|2014-07-09 10:57:16|Shawn Green|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Well, for me, and probably a whole lot of people, the building process is really enjoyable.I Don't think that I would want to buy another used boat, Even a brent boat. Seems to me like paying for a bunch of crap i dont want, and having to live with other peoples mistakes.| 31176|31140|2014-07-09 11:19:53|clove3clove|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Some interesting discussions have come up and I appreciate the travel feedback.  It sounds like Vancouver Island and the Georgia Straight are bustling with BS activity.  We're looking to be up there approximately the first week of November. As it has become obvious from other's input, we're all in very different and unique situations where it comes to finances, living expenses, personal commitments, work, age, physical ability, etc.  No doubt, sailing in rural northern Wisconsin is an extremely different game than the high density ports of Europe.   Our particular set of circumstances has led us to the idea that building is the most practical ( and desired) solution for having a highly customized boat for our particular needs and wants.  The skills that will be developed and the lessons learned in building a boat is also a big part of the equation. There’s also an interest in breathing some life back into the not so distant historical boat building culture here.   We've already experienced playing Dutch boy on hand-me-down fiberglass boats.  Buying a used steel boat thousands of miles away is not only not financially viable, but doesn't sound nearly as rewarding as the blood, sweat, and tears that will inevitably follow in building our own.   I’m really looking forward to taking in the beauty of the Pacific Northwest once again!   -Susan| 31177|31140|2014-07-09 13:50:48|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Cool. Then is sounds like you guys are more interested right now in building rather than cruising. That makes perfect sense. Enjoy the adventure. And keep us informed on the process and budget if you can! I'm interested.| 31178|31140|2014-07-10 00:19:03|wild_explorer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|"Economics nowadays" has nothing to do with reality ;)) You can hear all kind of stories about dirt cheap boats. Really? How many "dirt cheap" GOOD 30-45ft boats do you see in your LOCAL market??? It is almost the same as to pick what 50 years old used car you want and try to find it locally, in perfect condition for dirt cheap price. It really depends on your luck and can take a lifetime ;))I know one person who recently blindly (being in right time in right place) bought 43ft fiberglass sailboat almost in perfect condition for 3K. Another person fixing 33ft steel boat (similar price) with a lot of work need to be done. How many steel boats do you see in your local market? Sometimes you can see Bruce Robert's abandoned projects which goes almost for scrap price or 100K+ sailboats.Yep, it makes more sense to buy used boat or project boat, but it can take you years or decades to find the "right one". Building you own takes time, but it depends on you - not just on your luck. I really do not know if some companies still make bare hulls which could be finished by customers.Building cost? If you buy new materials, about 20-40K can put you on water. Final cost will be up to 100K (after you do all what you want).| 31179|30737|2014-07-10 16:22:20|kingsknight4life|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Jon.Are you still thinking of selling? If so shoot me an email, please.Rowland| 31180|31140|2014-07-10 23:07:24|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|"Building cost? If you buy new materials, about 20-40K can put you on water. Final cost will be up to 100K (after you do all what you want)."Thanks wild. It's good to finally see a build estimate that makes sense. I suspected it would be at least high five figures for a finished out steel boat - and you confirm that. 20-40K gets you on the water with the bare basics - but there's still a lot to do. Again, that makes sense.So that $23K brentyacht looks pretty attractive, eh? It's just a pity that they don't hold their value. It really has to be a labor of love to build one of these.BTW - what would you say the typical build time is for someone who's holding down a job while doing it?| 31181|31140|2014-07-11 00:32:51|wild_explorer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|You are missing main point Ninbubbas ;)For me, "putting boat on a water" is more than enough for a reasonable comfort for "live aboard". It really depends what your goal is and what level of comfort you expect. Yes, 23K is reasonable price for used steel boat. But why do you think that this boat lost its value? You do not know what building cost was for the owner and may be owner (after selling its boat) will be able to build a new one for 10K ;))It was already recommended NOT to build a boat on your spare time while you working (you can build parts if you own some land/property and plan to build your boat there). Do NOT rent building site.I would definitely adjust WHAT to build for origami boat if you have several years for that (mast, engine, misc items, etc). You can build the hull in 3 month at the end of that time frame working on your boat FULL time, put everything in it and and put your boat on water. If you are in US/Canada it make more sense to hire Brent (or his new crew) to put your boat on water. It might save you time and money in long run. It is fun to build a boat by yourself, but they have more experience, skills and know some "tricks" how to build Brentboat and can do it in much shorter time than you ever will. They may know suppliers with better price for some materials as well (at least I know it for my area). So, overall you may end up spending LESS money than building your boat by yourself ;))---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I suspected it would be at least high five figures for a finished out steel boat - and you confirm that. 20-40K gets you on the water with the bare basics - but there's still a lot to do. Again, that makes sense.So that $23K brentyacht looks pretty attractive, eh? It's just a pity that they don't hold their value. It really has to be a labor of love to build one of these.BTW - what would you say the typical build time is for someone who's holding down a job while doing it?| 31182|31140|2014-07-11 00:57:13|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|| 31183|31140|2014-07-11 01:58:36|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Have you actually built a boat and done this?   I have built a boat and I think if you can do this you are better than 99.99% of others....To think that anyone could build even the most basic boat for 10k is not realistic.  The steel, the paint and the consumables like sandpaper and paint brushes would probably come to that and you haven't even kitted her out with the necessities like machinery, sails and rigging.   All the little items like nuts, bolts, plumbing, electrical and fittings really add up and believe me, there is way more of these items than most think.  Scrap yards and surplus yards are great for scrounging but some places in the world don't have them and you are forced to buy new.  Things like sandpaper, paintbrushes and fuel used when you are running to the store aren't cheap and you never see these things in the finished boat.   If you built a 30 footer and fully set her up for sailing offshore with an inboard diesel for 40k, I think that would be absolutely fantastic.   20k for a bare shell.   50k or over would probably be more like it ready for offshore.   Much of the items would be used and scrounged which takes time.  Time is money.   Time working on a boat is time spent away from a job where you could be making a wage.   A used boat fully set up for about 20k looks awfully cheap against all of that.....  I am assuming the end goal is to go sailing.   If all you want to do is launch a boat and live on the water, build a plywood barge or a houseboat.  I could  probably whip one up in a week or two for much less than $10,000.  If you are going to live on board for a few years while you save money and do final fit out and rigging, the time spent doing that would be better used on getting a used boat, learn to sail her while working a second job.Don't get me wrong, I think building a boat is a wonderful thing.   Anyone who starts a boat and sees it though deserves tremendous credit.    It is just that I think financially and realistically you need to have your eyes open.   You will never be better off building a boat when used boats are so cheap.    You must do it because you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to do it....Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :You are missing main point Ninbubbas ;)For me, "putting boat on a water" is more than enough for a reasonable comfort for "live aboard". It really depends what your goal is and what level of comfort you expect. Yes, 23K is reasonable price for used steel boat. But why do you think that this boat lost its value? You do not know what building cost was for the owner and may be owner (after selling its boat) will be able to build a new one for 10K ;))It was already recommended NOT to build a boat on your spare time while you working (you can build parts if you own some land/property and plan to build your boat there). Do NOT rent building site.I would definitely adjust WHAT to build for origami boat if you have several years for that (mast, engine, misc items, etc). You can build the hull in 3 month at the end of that time frame working on your boat FULL time, put everything in it and and put your boat on water. If you are in US/Canada it make more sense to hire Brent (or his new crew) to put your boat on water. It might save you time and money in long run. It is fun to build a boat by yourself, but they have more experience, skills and know some "tricks" how to build Brentboat and can do it in much shorter time than you ever will. They may know suppliers with better price for some materials as well (at least I know it for my area). So, overall you may end up spending LESS money than building your boat by yourself ;))---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I suspected it would be at least high five figures for a finished out steel boat - and you confirm that. 20-40K gets you on the water with the bare basics - but there's still a lot to do. Again, that makes sense.So that $23K brentyacht looks pretty attractive, eh? It's just a pity that they don't hold their value. It really has to be a labor of love to build one of these.BTW - what would you say the typical build time is for someone who's holding down a job while doing it? | 31184|31140|2014-07-11 02:55:18|wild_explorer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Paul, I agree with your point of view on building cost. But I disagree about "used boats are so cheap". At least in my area (with big population and enough marinas around).Yes, you MIGHT find incredible deal on used boat sometimes, but... In general, most used sailboats > 30ft have price >15-20K. Many boats have gasoline engine, not diesel. To live aboard (at the marinas) not cheap as well with limited numbers of slips designated for it and with waiting list in many places. Even if you find that incredible "cheap boat" deal you HAVE TO jump on it RIGHT AWAY or you miss it. And you have to keep it somewhere to fix and before you are ready to use it - extra cost. "Non live aboard" slips are about $200-300/mo around here, similar price for "dry" storage (including travel lift from/to water, etc). So, unless you are really lucky you are "out of luck"  in my area ;)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Don't get me wrong, I think building a boat is a wonderful thing.   Anyone who starts a boat and sees it though deserves tremendous credit.    It is just that I think financially and realistically you need to have your eyes open.   You will never be better off building a boat when used boats are so cheap.    You must do it because you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to do it....Cheers, Paul| 31185|31140|2014-07-11 03:13:34|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|If the goal is to go sailing and go traveling, why does it matter where the boat is?  Fly out, buy the boat, and then have a great time sailing it to wherever you like.| 31186|31186|2014-07-11 07:35:31|cal_sailing44|Keel cooler sealing advice|Hi all, I have been a long time lurker and I have bought Brent's book and the DVD whilst I don't own a Origami boat I do own a 40ft Steel Ketch and was after some advice if I may? I have a Nanni 55 hp engine that is designed for keel cooling, Which I am reto fitting to the hull the manufacture recommends 1.85 sqr/mtr of surface area for effective cooling at >18 deg C water temp, and as I will be sailing mainly in the tropics, I have built one side, and together it will have about 1.95 sqr/mtrs of surface area and hold around 20 ltrs of coolant total (inc engine). I have built one side and have pressure tested it to 20psi the overflow/heat expansion cap on the engine is pressure rated to 1bar/14.5 psi, now in over an hour it lost 0.5psi through two small pinprick holes that I can not get too, to weld them effectively. Any advice on how I could seal them. Was thinking of filling it with a thinned oil base paint pressurising it and then draining and washing the paint out??? each cooler side hold around 4 ltrs. Any advice would be appreciated.CheersCal | 31187|31186|2014-07-11 07:44:29|Matt Malone|Re: Keel cooler sealing advice| Is the problem that you do not know where the leaks are?   There are dyes one can use to find leaks.   If there are simply inaccessible areas, so inaccessible one cannot reach any length of stick in on a stick welder, then that is tight.   If you can find the leaks then why not epoxy or marine high temperature silicon?Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 04:35:30 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Keel cooler sealing advice   Hi all, I have been a long time lurker and I have bought Brent's book and the DVD whilst I don't own a Origami boat I do own a 40ft Steel Ketch and was after some advice if I may? I have a Nanni 55 hp engine that is designed for keel cooling, Which I am reto fitting to the hull the manufacture recommends 1.85 sqr/mtr of surface area for effective cooling at >18 deg C water temp, and as I will be sailing mainly in the tropics, I have built one side, and together it will have about 1.95 sqr/mtrs of surface area and hold around 20 ltrs of coolant total (inc engine). I have built one side and have pressure tested it to 20psi the overflow/heat expansion cap on the engine is pressure rated to 1bar/14.5 psi, now in over an hour it lost 0.5psi through two small pinprick holes that I can not get too, to weld them effectively. Any advice on how I could seal them. Was thinking of filling it with a thinned oil base paint pressurising it and then draining and washing the paint out??? each cooler side hold around 4 ltrs. Any advice would be appreciated.CheersCal | 31188|31186|2014-07-11 08:03:11|Hannu Venermo|Re: Keel cooler sealing advice| Take a pic on post in files, or link to a photo sharing site ? My opinion: On a steel boat, you can get anywhere. Cut off a piece from bottom for access, if needed. Weld it back in afterwards. A good small angle grinder will do it in a few minutes. The steel wont care. Some smoothing with a flap wheel, painting etc. and the repair will be invisible. On 11/07/2014 13:44, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Hi all, I have been a long time lurker and I have bought Brent's book and the DVD whilst I don't own a Origami boat I do own a 40ft Steel Ketch and was after some advice if I may?  I have a Nanni 55 hp engine that is designed for keel cooling, Which I am reto fitting to the hull the manufacture recommends 1.85 sqr/mtr of surface area for effective cooling at >18 deg C water temp, and as I will be sailing mainly in the tropics, I have built one side, and together it will have about 1.95 sqr/mtrs of surface area and hold around 20 ltrs of coolant total (inc engine). I have built one side and have pressure tested it to 20psi the overflow/heat expansion cap on the engine is pressure rated to 1bar/14.5 psi, now in over an hour it lost 0.5psi through two small pinprick holes that I can not get too, to weld them effectively. Any advice on how I could seal them. Was thinking of filling it with a thinned oil base paint pressurising it and then draining and washing the paint out??? each cooler side hold around 4 ltrs. Any advice would be appreciated. Cheers Cal -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31189|31140|2014-07-11 12:23:05|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Hi everyone, I'm the other half of clove 3 clove and after reading reading all the boat forums we've decided that everyone is right. We're not going to build a boat anymore. What a silly idea in the first place!  As matter of fact I think I may just sell everything I own and get us a house in the suburbs and start actually getting on with my life. I must have been crazy all these years! I have been saved, and I owe it all to the nay-sayers.  Through the efforts of friends and family I've been able to find over the last five years, because I've been planning on building this boat for quite some time, most of our stainless needs, all of the wood for the interior, a wood shop with a pole barn in which to store the boat while fitting the interior, all my plumbing, a composting toilet, a propane system and oven, solar panel, wind generator, inverter, batteries, enough scrap to build the keel and skeg, an engine, all of my ballast needs (lead) plus some, rigging, sails, half the running rigging, half my mooring lines, fenders, 2 CQR anchors, a fortress anchor, a folding fishermans anchor, my boom, all my blocks, a space to build the boat with free electric and a toilet and use of cranes, 100 yards from shore. Also got my chain, anchor rode, and a bucket full of stainless fasteners. I sat down and added up the money I'd spent on all this crap the other day and I was shocked! I had spent well over my budget. The total was $00.00 plus tax. I suppose should add gas money for driving and getting all this stuff. Not much though, I don't own a car. People who spend too much time on forums seem to forget that every persons situation is entirely different from the next. Extremely different in many cases.  I need a steel boat with a pilot house which is well insulated. This boat does not exist on the used market in the Great Lakes. Kind of odd considering the fact that it is cold 8 months of the year. There are about 5 steel sailboats on the market in the Great Lakes at any given time, and they are usually ugly, trashed, over priced piles of junk. I'm building a home. By building in steel, I can leave the boat in the water year round, saving $500 a year for lifting, and another $1000 for winter storage. Being in during spring thaw and fall freeze up adds another 4-6 months of sailing to my season, which is only about 4-5 months, at the most. Fire wood is free off county land. The lake stays at about 52 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer, making my keel a refrigerator that requires no ice or electricity. Gentrification has caused the cost of living in the place I'm from to sky rocket, and Boat living is one of the only logical routes if I want to retain some of my freedom, and not work my life away, in order to live in this beautiful place my family has called home since the late 1800's.  I've got many people behind me on this project who would to see it completed, since it's a call back to the days when Bayfield was a town full of boat builders. Speaking of which, not a single one of these builders was a naval architect or used plans, and of which many of their boats are still plying the waters of the Great Lakes to this day, as commercial fishing boats. These boats have no stability curve charts, only a track record 80 years running.  I've already been living on boats now for many years, I've put on 7,000+ miles in the last five years alone, during seasons which only last 5 months, in a boat that is twenty feet long. I know what I need, I don't own an armchair in which to dream in, the glass is half full. To be half crazy is wholly alive.  | 31190|31140|2014-07-11 12:23:37|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island| Hi everyone, I'm the other half of clove 3 clove and after reading all the boat forums we've decided that everyone is right. We're not going to build a boat anymore. What a silly idea in the first place!  As matter of fact I think I may just sell everything I own and get us a house in the suburbs and start actually getting on with my life. I must have been crazy all these years! I have been saved, and I owe it all to the nay-sayers.  Through the efforts of friends and family I've been able to find over the last five years, because I've been planning on building this boat for awhile, most of our stainless needs, all of the wood for the interior, a wood shop with a pole barn in which to store the boat while fitting the interior, all my plumbing, a composting toilet, a propane system and oven, solar panel, wind generator, inverter, enough scrap to build the keel and skeg, an engine, all of my ballast needs (lead) plus some, rigging, sails, half the running rigging, half my mooring lines, fenders, 2 CQR anchors, a fortress anchor, a folding fishermans anchor, my boom, all my blocks, a space to build the boat with free electric and a toilet and use of cranes. Also chain, anchor rode, buckets full of stainless fasteners, a spinnaker pole, radar, radar mast, and GPS. I sat down and added up the money I'd spent on all this crap the other day and I was shocked! I had spent well over my budget. The total was $00.00 plus tax. Oh, I forgot to add what I'd spent on gas running around to buy all this shit. Can't imagine it was much though, I don't even own a car. Definitely more expensive to build your own boat.  | 31191|31140|2014-07-11 14:51:18|Shawn Green|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|For What it's worth...In BC, My steel cost me just under 10k, That's wheeled and primed in zinc, and delivered to a small island via two ferries.it would be cheaper if you were doing it on the mainland, or even just vancouver island. I spent a good few years scrounging scrap stainless, and am probably into it for another couple thousand. Again, It would be a whole lot cheaper if you weren't obssesed with stainless steel, and could settle for galvanized. The only stainless i had to buy new so far was the four lengths of sch 40 304 bulwark cap. that one hurt a bunch, but being that I was dealing with a company i had just finished giving 10k, they made it as easy on me as they could. I'm probably into the project for nearly a thousand dollars of welding rod, and counting.and probably $250 in plasma cutter consumables.I was able to trade another guy some work for a 60 horse diesel engine. Bought another brent boats used sails for $200 or something.electrical and plumbing i have more or less collected everything for free ( or considered it a bonus when buying for something else) over the last few years. The next few things I am after are Lead, paint, and foam insulation...I got a lead on a bunch of lead i could have for a trade or cheap cheap cheap, so I am working on that.Got a paint contractor friend that can buy paint as cheap as it gets,but it will still be really expensive. no way around that one. Same is true of insulation. Gonna cost me, but its a one time thing...Oh, and the mast. Still don't know what I will do about that. Maybe go with the steel one....Anyway, Its considerably less than 50k, and I am happy to do it at my own pace, while working, and living in a house beside the boat. Steel was delivered last november and I anticipate being in the water next summer. So, Just over a year. If I had more money, it could be done way faster, but I dont. Obviously i am not including the price of tools, and rent, and all that other extra crap, but to me those are seperate expenses anyway. | 31192|31140|2014-07-11 16:45:15|Chris Salayka|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|LOL !!! From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 11 July 2014 06:29 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island Hi everyone, I'm the other half of clove 3 clove and after reading all the boat forums we've decided that everyone is right. We're not going to build a boat anymore. What a silly idea in the first place! As matter of fact I think I may just sell everything I own and get us a house in the suburbs and start actually getting on with my life. I must have been crazy all these years! I have been saved, and I owe it all to the nay-sayers. Through the efforts of friends and family I've been able to find over the last five years, because I've been planning on building this boat for awhile, most of our stainless needs, all of the wood for the interior, a wood shop with a pole barn in which to store the boat while fitting the interior, all my plumbing, a composting toilet, a propane system and oven, solar panel, wind generator, inverter, enough scrap to build the keel and skeg, an engine, all of my ballast needs (lead) plus some, rigging, sails, half the running rigging, half my mooring lines, fenders, 2 CQR anchors, a fortress anchor, a folding fishermans anchor, my boom, all my blocks, a space to build the boat with free electric and a toilet and use of cranes. Also chain, anchor rode, buckets full of stainless fasteners, a spinnaker pole, radar, radar mast, and GPS. I sat down and added up the money I'd spent on all this crap the other day and I was shocked! I had spent well over my budget. The total was $00.00 plus tax. Oh, I forgot to add what I'd spent on gas running around to buy all this shit. Can't imagine it was much though, I don't even own a car. Definitely more expensive to build your own boat. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 31193|31140|2014-07-11 17:00:55|Chris Salayka|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Just an opinion – time is not necessarily money, and I think is a choice. I had the experience in Mexico where I owned time instead of time owning me – it really is a 180 experience in living – Hermann Hesse said in his ‘My Belief’ that there is a false world order . . . so instead of trying to logically argue any of this stuff ::: my time is my money and time is not money: instead, time is time and it flows . . . timelessly . . . very few people live in the flow – what I like about Brent and Origami is the sense of flow (and defiance against the false world order) From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 10 July 2014 22:59 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island Have you actually built a boat and done this? I have built a boat and I think if you can do this you are better than 99.99% of others.... To think that anyone could build even the most basic boat for 10k is not realistic. The steel, the paint and the consumables like sandpaper and paint brushes would probably come to that and you haven't even kitted her out with the necessities like machinery, sails and rigging. All the little items like nuts, bolts, plumbing, electrical and fittings really add up and believe me, there is way more of these items than most think. Scrap yards and surplus yards are great for scrounging but some places in the world don't have them and you are forced to buy new. Things like sandpaper, paintbrushes and fuel used when you are running to the store aren't cheap and you never see these things in the finished boat. If you built a 30 footer and fully set her up for sailing offshore with an inboard diesel for 40k, I think that would be absolutely fantastic. 20k for a bare shell. 50k or over would probably be more like it ready for offshore. Much of the items would be used and scrounged which takes time. Time is money. Time working on a boat is time spent away from a job where you could be making a wage. A used boat fully set up for about 20k looks awfully cheap against all of that..... I am assuming the end goal is to go sailing. If all you want to do is launch a boat and live on the water, build a plywood barge or a houseboat. I could probably whip one up in a week or two for much less than $10,000. If you are going to live on board for a few years while you save money and do final fit out and rigging, the time spent doing that would be better used on getting a used boat, learn to sail her while working a second job. Don't get me wrong, I think building a boat is a wonderful thing. Anyone who starts a boat and sees it though deserves tremendous credit. It is just that I think financially and realistically you need to have your eyes open. You will never be better off building a boat when used boats are so cheap. You must do it because you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to do it.... Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You are missing main point Ninbubbas ;) For me, "putting boat on a water" is more than enough for a reasonable comfort for "live aboard". It really depends what your goal is and what level of comfort you expect. Yes, 23K is reasonable price for used steel boat. But why do you think that this boat lost its value? You do not know what building cost was for the owner and may be owner (after selling its boat) will be able to build a new one for 10K ;)) It was already recommended NOT to build a boat on your spare time while you working (you can build parts if you own some land/property and plan to build your boat there). Do NOT rent building site. I would definitely adjust WHAT to build for origami boat if you have several years for that (mast, engine, misc items, etc). You can build the hull in 3 month at the end of that time frame working on your boat FULL time, put everything in it and and put your boat on water. If you are in US/Canada it make more sense to hire Brent (or his new crew) to put your boat on water. It might save you time and money in long run. It is fun to build a boat by yourself, but they have more experience, skills and know some "tricks" how to build Brentboat and can do it in much shorter time than you ever will. They may know suppliers with better price for some materials as well (at least I know it for my area). So, overall you may end up spending LESS money than building your boat by yourself ;)) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I suspected it would be at least high five figures for a finished out steel boat - and you confirm that. 20-40K gets you on the water with the bare basics - but there's still a lot to do. Again, that makes sense. So that $23K brentyacht looks pretty attractive, eh? It's just a pity that they don't hold their value. It really has to be a labor of love to build one of these. BTW - what would you say the typical build time is for someone who's holding down a job while doing it? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 31194|31140|2014-07-11 17:37:06|brentswain38|Re: Fixing boats in remote places|That is why it is better to build your cleats , anchor winch, mast and fittings, anchors , hatches, woodstove, composting head, etc etc as most of my clients do rather than buy everything. What you build for yourself is usually of far better quality that what the ship swindlers sell. Its even hard for the stickiest fingers to walk of with welded down gear.I just built a windvane self steering  for a friend, in my cockpit,  while anchored .I have done stoves, heads, anchor winches  etc in the same way| 31195|31140|2014-07-11 17:40:43|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I just heard a good term on CBC radio this morning."The THEOLOGY  of economics."| 31196|31170|2014-07-11 17:48:16|brentswain38|Re: Living on a boat|Living on my boat has let me make enough in a month of work, average, per year to let me spend the rest of the year on playtime, since my mid 20's. It has enabled me to own my own home, debt free since my mid 20s, something which would have been almost impossible, had my home been a house. In 83 I built a 31 for a couple whom I later met in Mexico, in 1988. They said "The boat is free, With all the money she has saved us,  from living aboard and the travel we have done in her, we could lose her on a reef and walk away form her and we would still be money ahead of where we  would be , had we never owned  a boat. Since then they sailed thru the Panama Canal thru the Caribean to Halifax, back to Bermuda and on to Ireland and England.No on ever lay on their death bed , saying "I wish I had worked more."| 31197|31170|2014-07-11 17:53:19|brentswain38|Re: Living on a boat|Many of my clients started living and cruising on plastic boats . Eventually they wanted something which didn't leak constantly and drip condensation. They wanted something  which would let them cruise without the constant worry about hitting something and losing their home. While the market is flooded with fragile, leaky  plastic boats ,  good steel boats are rare and hard to find,After making the switch to steel none would  ever want to live in plastic again| 31198|31140|2014-07-11 18:10:07|Chris Salayka|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Money and Soul do not mix! From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 11 July 2014 14:41 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island I just heard a good term on CBC radio this morning. "The THEOLOGY of economics." --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 31199|31140|2014-07-11 22:27:19|Aaron|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Evan Shaler should still have the Boom section I bought from Moonflower a few years back. Just need all of the fitting and jewelry added. I paid $200 just ask Evan what he would charge to complete it for you. Aaron From: "Shawn Green greenseaboats@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island   For What it's worth...In BC, My steel cost me just under 10k, That's wheeled and primed in zinc, and delivered to a small island via two ferries.it would be cheaper if you were doing it on the mainland, or even just vancouver island. I spent a good few years scrounging scrap stainless, and am probably into it for another couple thousand. Again, It would be a whole lot cheaper if you weren't obssesed with stainless steel, and could settle for galvanized. The only stainless i had to buy new so far was the four lengths of sch 40 304 bulwark cap. that one hurt a bunch, but being that I was dealing with a company i had just finished giving 10k, they made it as easy on me as they could. I'm probably into the project for nearly a thousand dollars of welding rod, and counting.and probably $250 in plasma cutter consumables.I was able to trade another guy some work for a 60 horse diesel engine. Bought another brent boats used sails for $200 or something.electrical and plumbing i have more or less collected everything for free ( or considered it a bonus when buying for something else) over the last few years. The next few things I am after are Lead, paint, and foam insulation...I got a lead on a bunch of lead i could have for a trade or cheap cheap cheap, so I am working on that.Got a paint contractor friend that can buy paint as cheap as it gets,but it will still be really expensive. no way around that one. Same is true of insulation. Gonna cost me, but its a one time thing...Oh, and the mast. Still don't know what I will do about that. Maybe go with the steel one....Anyway, Its considerably less than 50k, and I am happy to do it at my own pace, while working, and living in a house beside the boat. Steel was delivered last november and I anticipate being in the water next summer. So, Just over a year. If I had more money, it could be done way faster, but I dont. Obviously i am not including the price of tools, and rent, and all that other extra crap, but to me those are seperate expenses anyway. #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 -- #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455activity span .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 dd.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 dd.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 dd.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455last p span.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 div#ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 .ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 input, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455 #ygrps-yiv-1409240192yiv6508576455ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1409240192 | 31200|31140|2014-07-12 00:03:46|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Have your people call my people when it's finished! Just kidding.Like I said before, if scrounging and building is your bliss do it. No problem. I respect that.It's just not my thing. I like sailing. As you can see by the numbers provided by these guys, $23K for a finished brentyacht is a great deal. I hope yours is as cheap and you have a blast doing it. I'm just dubious.| 31201|31186|2014-07-12 16:06:33|Robert Jones|Re: Keel cooler sealing advice|I have never heard of using paint, but a good temporary fix is black pepper. The larger the grind, the better. There are also radiator stop leaks that will work. I have used many over the years with varying success, some long term, some just a day or so, some not at all. If you can't get to the pipe, the only fix i can think of is to run another keel line through the hull on your next haulout. On Friday, July 11, 2014 7:03 AM, "Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Take a pic on post in files, or link to a photo sharing site ? My opinion: On a steel boat, you can get anywhere. Cut off a piece from bottom for access, if needed. Weld it back in afterwards. A good small angle grinder will do it in a few minutes. The steel wont care. Some smoothing with a flap wheel, painting etc. and the repair will be invisible. On 11/07/2014 13:44, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Hi all, I have been a long time lurker and I have bought Brent's book and the DVD whilst I don't own a Origami boat I do own a 40ft Steel Ketch and was after some advice if I may?  I have a Nanni 55 hp engine that is designed for keel cooling, Which I am reto fitting to the hull the manufacture recommends 1.85 sqr/mtr of surface area for effective cooling at >18 deg C water temp, and as I will be sailing mainly in the tropics, I have built one side, and together it will have about 1.95 sqr/mtrs of surface area and hold around 20 ltrs of coolant total (inc engine). I have built one side and have pressure tested it to 20psi the overflow/heat expansion cap on the engine is pressure rated to 1bar/14.5 psi, now in over an hour it lost 0.5psi through two small pinprick holes that I can not get too, to weld them effectively. Any advice on how I could seal them. Was thinking of filling it with a thinned oil base paint pressurising it and then draining and washing the paint out??? each cooler side hold around 4 ltrs. Any advice would be appreciated. Cheers Cal -- -hanermo (cnc designs) #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 -- #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385activity span .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 dd.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 dd.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 dd.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385last p span.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 div#ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 .ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 input, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385 #ygrps-yiv-1254395425yiv9428035385ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1254395425 | 31202|31140|2014-07-12 18:45:13|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Winston had $35 K in his 36 a few years ago. Haidan has about the same in his boat. If you can settle for the discomfort and insecurity of a fibreglass boat, go for it. If you want the extreme comfort and safety of a well built steel boat there are not that many options.For someone who wants a 31 in Mexico , then George's old boat is definitely the best choice.  When she is sold, then what? People who simply buy a boat, get one with zero tools aboard, and, in many cases, zero knowledge of how to fix anything, in the middle of nowhere.They become adult day care projects for those who have built their  own boat. Many of my clients, after building their own boats, got a career out of it, doing adult day care for those who bought everything, and thus remained as abysmally useless as an umbrella in a hurricane , when things break or go wrong .| 31203|31186|2014-07-12 18:52:10|brentswain38|Re: Keel cooler sealing advice|14.5 psi , over 1.95 meters is a huge amount of total pressure, Work it out . It is in the thousands of pounds, total.  I have a press on soft plastic cap on my header tank. It  has never moved.So the pressure in my skeg is minimal. Forcing thinned epoxy in pinholes makes an epoxy rivet, which you could never get out.| 31204|31140|2014-07-12 19:19:58|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|If I had listened to the naysayers, I would have spent my life working in suburbia ,instead of playing  and doing exactly what I wanted, any time I wanted  since my mid 20s,  11 months a year, and doing interesting work for great , interesting people , 1 month a year. This included cruising most of the South Pacific Islands which interested ,me for entire winters, instead of the two week  intervals the naysayers had to settle for. As I pointed out in my book , you can judge the value of advice, by taking  a critical look at what it has done for the person offering it. I wouldnt trade the life I have a had for that of any of  the naysayers.NOT A CHANCE!| 31205|31140|2014-07-12 19:58:16|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Adult Day Car sounds fun and everything, but I'd certainly rather cruise. As for the $35K someone has in a finished and sailing brentyacht - I just don't believe it. There is more in those boats than that.I'm going to go with wild's numbers. Those are believable.| 31206|31140|2014-07-12 20:48:24|wild_explorer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|If you have pile of cash, can afford to stay in hotels if you do not like a boat and find another one somewhere else, fly there again, etc... then it is a good plan.Without knowing law, language, habits of different country you might end up without cash and boat. Even if you will have a boat in your possession, does not mean you will not run into some legal troubles later and lose your boat.P.S. Flying in/from US there is limit of cash you can carry through US custom, same for different country. So, you need to come up with different kind of payment (travel checks, etc).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If the goal is to go sailing and go traveling, why does it matter where the boat is?  Fly out, buy the boat, and then have a great time sailing it to wherever you like.| 31207|31140|2014-07-12 20:57:49|wild_explorer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|This proves that steel boat can be build for under 10K and sold with >100% profit later. Not a bad investment ;))).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I sat down and added up the money I'd spent on all this crap the other day and I was shocked! I had spent well over my budget. The total was $00.00 plus tax. I suppose should add gas money for driving and getting all this stuff. Not much though, I don't own a car.| 31208|31140|2014-07-12 21:05:28|wild_explorer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|But you still believe in "dirt cheap" used boats which are sea-worthy, have lots of gears and ready to go around the world without any work invested in it... ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :As for the $35K someone has in a finished and sailing brentyacht - I just don't believe it. There is more in those boats than that.| 31209|31140|2014-07-12 21:47:33|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Winston Bushnell is a genius.   He has built many boats.  If a boat could be built for 35k, then he is the guy to do it.I remember when he built his first Origami 36 footer.  He had already built a ferro boat and sailed around the world.  I think he spent about 18k or 20k and he finished it right about when I started building mine which was about 1986.   If you take inflation in to account that translates to 38k to 43k now.   So knowing Winston and what he can do, and the fact that he has now built many boats, I have to assume that 35k is possible.   http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/There is no way I, you or probably anyone else other than Brent could build a boat as cheap as Winston.    Winston is a great scrounger, mechanic and can build almost anything.  Seriously, he has a PHD in cheap so I would use the 35k as a starting point.  Resale value is a whole other story.   If you seriously think you can do one for 10k or 20k and then double your money in resale, then you need to read the previous posts again.You are probably kidding, right?   Good luck, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :But you still believe in "dirt cheap" used boats which are sea-worthy, have lots of gears and ready to go around the world without any work invested in it... ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :As for the $35K someone has in a finished and sailing brentyacht - I just don't believe it. There is more in those boats than that.| 31210|31140|2014-07-12 22:12:42|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|If it was easy, everybody would be doing it and this is the reason you get the boats so cheap.   I have spent a lot of time in the tropics and there is a lot of junk but you do get some deals if you are willing to look around and are patient.  I would never stay in hotels.   That would break the bank.   You need to travel like a back packer.  It is surprising how cheap you can go. Try the travel wikis or lonely planet.  Going to the tropics in to a remote area like Fiji, or many places in the Caribbean you really aren't on your own.  You land right in the cruising grounds where the weather is tropical, more benign and there are lots of people who have a lot of offshore experience to help you.   If you are single and flexible, it is much easier.Anyway, nothing is without risk.   There is a lot of risk in doing your first offshore trip leaving Canada along the Washingon/Oregon coast too.  I know of people who's sailing trips ended there.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If you have pile of cash, can afford to stay in hotels if you do not like a boat and find another one somewhere else, fly there again, etc... then it is a good plan.Without knowing law, language, habits of different country you might end up without cash and boat. Even if you will have a boat in your possession, does not mean you will not run into some legal troubles later and lose your boat.P.S. Flying in/from US there is limit of cash you can carry through US custom, same for different country. So, you need to come up with different kind of payment (travel checks, etc).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If the goal is to go sailing and go traveling, why does it matter where the boat is?  Fly out, buy the boat, and then have a great time sailing it to wherever you like.| 31211|31140|2014-07-13 00:05:47|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|If it's a used brentyacht, how could it not be seaworthy? They can survive anything! Seriously, less than $20K is a pretty safe gamble I think - for a steel boat with a full compliment of gear.| 31212|31140|2014-07-13 02:10:28|Hannu Venermo|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Not really limited (africa and some arab & middle east countries are different. So are warzones and places with blood diamonds etc. These are not where you go and do boat stuff, anyway). There is no limit in general. You are required to declare the cash, thats all. Its a painless process, that I have done. Just tick the box, and tell the customs and immigration person why you have the money, and what for. I had about 30k$ in cash, with me, to buy 4 motorcycles (HD Sportster 1000s and cnc machine tools and parts). I have easily moved upto half a million at a time of my own money, and we have customers who do million+ stuff every month. The customs is free, everything else is not. And when you have the customs form with declared cash, you later have zero problems with banks, or the irs (of your (host) country or police, as you can now demonstrate legal ownership of the money. Costs vary greatly. On 13/07/2014 02:48, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Without knowing law, language, habits of different country you might > end up without cash and boat. Even if you will have a boat in your > possession, does not mean you will not run into some legal troubles > later and lose your boat. > > P.S. Flying in/from US there is limit of cash you can carry through US > custom, same for different country. So, you need to come up with > different kind of payment (travel checks, etc). -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31213|31140|2014-07-13 08:11:54|J Fisher|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I toured that boat in SF before they headed south. It was in good shape then. They did comment that the interior was built more like a 26. John Fisher's iPad  On Jul 13, 2014, at 12:05 PM, "ninbubbas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   If it's a used brentyacht, how could it not be seaworthy? They can survive anything! Seriously, less than $20K is a pretty safe gamble I think - for a steel boat with a full compliment of gear. | 31214|31140|2014-07-13 19:41:21|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|So many things have actually got cheaper since Winston built his first 36. With so many boats being scrapped, the amount of used gear  has increased, and electronics have never been cheaper. It is common for people  to spend an extra $40K on  a boat to increase the resale price by $20K, a net loss of resale "Value"  of $20KResale price us what you can get for her, resale value  is the gap between what  you can get for her and what she cost you in the first place. Don't confuse the two. At a certain point, spending more on a boat drops the  resale value, until it becomes a losing proposition. Winston sold his first 36 for several times what she cost him to build, which is great resale value. Spending more on her would have lowered her net resale " VALUE".| 31215|31140|2014-07-13 19:46:32|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I built my 31 in 84 for around $6K, to living aboard and sailing.  That is all the money I had go thru my pocket. We live in one of the most wasteful societies in history, with all kinds of stuff for free, for anyone who keeps an eye out for it.Don't expect the unimaginitive to  comprehend this| 31216|31140|2014-07-13 20:24:56|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Everything was cheap in '84. But times have changed.Here's another example of a great deal on a used Brentyacht (you could likely get it for the low $20Ks):1995 Brent Swain Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com 1995 Brent Swain Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yach... 1995 Brent Swain Sloop Sail boat for sale, located in British Columbia, NANAIMO View on www.yachtworld.com Preview by Yahoo  Of course, the downside is that, once again, the builder/owner is losing his shirt:"Cost to build was in excess of $70,000. (Can)"As long as you understand that Brentyachts don't hold their value and that it's the building of the thing that is the primary reward (if that's your bliss), then you'll be fine.It's just clearly not a good way for new cruisers who want to get out there and sail to spend their time and money. Buy this used boat for $20K and go sailing and spend that additional $50K the other guy spent just on the boat on your own sun and fun!| 31217|31140|2014-07-14 10:20:53|Hannu Venermo|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Yep. Steel is up a lot (100% or more) though, and so are probably welding rods, wire, chains, anchors and winches. Depending on where you are, very much, used may be a good option in some stuff. On 14/07/2014 01:41, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > So many things have actually got cheaper since Winston built his first > 36. With so many boats being scrapped, the amount of used gear has > increased, and electronics have never been cheaper. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31218|31140|2014-07-14 10:28:01|Matt Malone|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island| The price to buy steel at the scrap yard in my area has not increased, however, selection is decreasing because it is being shipped out more promptly to recycling and more people are hunting for the clean, uniform pieces.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 16:20:50 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island   Yep. Steel is up a lot (100% or more) though, and so are probably welding rods, wire, chains, anchors and winches. Depending on where you are, very much, used may be a good option in some stuff. On 14/07/2014 01:41, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > So many things have actually got cheaper since Winston built his first > 36. With so many boats being scrapped, the amount of used gear has > increased, and electronics have never been cheaper. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31219|31140|2014-07-14 10:32:33|Hannu Venermo|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I doubt that. Steel is sold by the ton, based on current market price. Steel is today about 400$/ton.When it was about 150, I bet the scrap yard paid less. On 14/07/2014 16:28, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > The price to buy steel at the scrap yard in my area has not increased, > however, selection is decreasing because it is being shipped out more > promptly to recycling and more people are hunting for the clean, > uniform pieces. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31220|31140|2014-07-14 10:42:53|Matt Malone|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island| I have paid 35 cents per pound for steel I pick from the scrap yard.   They weigh me in, weigh me out and I pay based on the difference.  I have paid that price for at least the last 6 years.  The last time I was at the scrap yard was late June, when I bought three galvanized light poles for 35 cents per pound.  A few weeks before I purchased pieces of dimensional steel, barrels and one light pole.   In the last few years I have purchased steel pipe, large tube, c-channel, angle iron, even entire working gadgets that were predominately steel for 35 cents per pound.I am not clear on what basis you state you doubt that.   Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 16:32:30 +0200> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island> > I doubt that.> Steel is sold by the ton, based on current market price.> > Steel is today about 400$/ton.When it was about 150, I bet the scrap > yard paid less.> > On 14/07/2014 16:28, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] > wrote:> > The price to buy steel at the scrap yard in my area has not increased, > > however, selection is decreasing because it is being shipped out more > > promptly to recycling and more people are hunting for the clean, > > uniform pieces.> >> > Matt > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs)> > > > ------------------------------------> > ------------------------------------> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> ------------------------------------> > Yahoo Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com > origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:> https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/> | 31221|31140|2014-07-14 11:36:51|Hannu Venermo|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|The OP boat was made in 1985. At that time steel was about 50% to 70% less than now. At issue was costs since building, at 70.000$ can. Steel prices approximately doubled or more maybe tripled at some point. They then came down a bit and have been fairly stable several years. Your 0.35$ / lg == .80$/kg == 0.6€/kg. New steel is approximately the same price. 1 €/kg in small quantity, and less in boats or by the tons. Building a boat today is probably triple the cost than in 1985, in continental US or EU. Comissioning might cost the same, as electronics have come way down. Copper as in wiring may be a major cost (or not). On 14/07/2014 16:42, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I have paid 35 cents per pound for steel I pick from the scrap yard. > They weigh me in, weigh me out and I pay based on the difference. I > have paid that price for at least the last 6 years. The last time I > was at the scrap yard was late June, when I bought three galvanized > light poles for 35 cents per pound. A few weeks before I purchased > pieces of dimensional steel, barrels and one light pole. In the last > few years I have purchased steel pipe, large tube, c-channel, angle > iron, even entire working gadgets that were predominately steel for 35 > cents per pound. > > I am not clear on what basis you state you doubt that. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31222|31140|2014-07-14 11:37:08|akenai@yahoo.com|Steel boat building group|Hannu You do not appear to be in the least bit interested in building a boat so why are you here. Do you have any building experience that would help anyone that is or wanting to build a steel boat ? Have you rebuilt or finished out the interior of any boat? Nothing is as cheap as we think it used to be. Aaron Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island Sent: Mon, Jul 14, 2014 2:20:50 PM   Yep. Steel is up a lot (100% or more) though, and so are probably welding rods, wire, chains, anchors and winches. Depending on where you are, very much, used may be a good option in some stuff. On 14/07/2014 01:41, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > So many things have actually got cheaper since Winston built his first > 36. With so many boats being scrapped, the amount of used gear has > increased, and electronics have never been cheaper. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31223|31140|2014-07-14 12:16:22|Matt Malone|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island| >Your 0.35$ / lg == .80$/kg == 0.6€/kg.>New steel is approximately the same price.Perhaps in industrial quantities, on long term contracts, new steel is the same price as my price from the scrap yard.   Yes, one can buy some steel boats for about the price of scrap metal.   So the "price of steel" varies widely depending on where you come by it. Actual prices of what an individual can buy steel for at a supplier you have bought steel from I think it more useful to the other people in this group.   There may indeed be huge differences in the price of steel available to the individual, but we only discover this if you are specific and talk only about steel you might actually be able to buy as an individual.I priced square tube today because I am thinking about buying some.  In practice, retail, if I arrive with a trailer and want to buy steel at a small wholesaler (I do it less frequently, but, when there is no alternative....) I pay substantially more, 60-65 cents a pound.  From the regular consumer metal retailer (Metal Supermarkets) in my area, I pay $1.30-$1.35 per pound for the same sections.  I have had Metal Supermarkets trucks loading up right beside me at the same small wholesaler I use.  I am only able to buy from this one wholesaler because I arrive with my truck, I am as organized as the construction companies that buy in bulk, I know the routine of their yard, and I managed to get into their computer back in the 1980s.  I have no doubt that building a boat from all new steel would cost far more now than back then.  For quality hull sheeting, I see no alternative.  For the other stuff, I would look at the scrap yard and see if I can get lucky at all.       Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 17:36:49 +0200> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island> > The OP boat was made in 1985.> At that time steel was about 50% to 70% less than now.> At issue was costs since building, at 70.000$ can.> > Steel prices approximately doubled or more maybe tripled at some point.> They then came down a bit and have been fairly stable several years.> > Your 0.35$ / lg == .80$/kg == 0.6€/kg.> > New steel is approximately the same price.> 1 €/kg in small quantity, and less in boats or by the tons.> > Building a boat today is probably triple the cost than in 1985, in > continental US or EU.> Comissioning might cost the same, as electronics have come way down.> Copper as in wiring may be a major cost (or not).> > > On 14/07/2014 16:42, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] > wrote:> > I have paid 35 cents per pound for steel I pick from the scrap yard. > > They weigh me in, weigh me out and I pay based on the difference. I > > have paid that price for at least the last 6 years. The last time I > > was at the scrap yard was late June, when I bought three galvanized > > light poles for 35 cents per pound. A few weeks before I purchased > > pieces of dimensional steel, barrels and one light pole. In the last > > few years I have purchased steel pipe, large tube, c-channel, angle > > iron, even entire working gadgets that were predominately steel for 35 > > cents per pound.> >> > I am not clear on what basis you state you doubt that.> >> > Matt > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs)> > > > ------------------------------------> > ------------------------------------> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> ------------------------------------> > Yahoo Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com > origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:> https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/> | 31224|31140|2014-07-14 12:26:14|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I like how most forum topics devolve into a typical "man vs man, your-wrong-I'm right-a-thon." It seems the forums are more of an endurance test than anything else. Realistically, we are all arguing for the same point. I must commend the creative ways of reiterating the same thing, though.Building a boat will cost money. So will my next doctor visit, and so will my next meal. Whatever, it's all the same. Money comes, and money goes. Money is not the ultimate law which governs every god damn thing out there. If it is for you, then that is your problem, and not mine. Mind you, I'm not a rich kid and I do have debts like everyone else.When I total my costs I won't be adding labor. I don't know why you would. If time is money then all that time I've spent on the shitter reading old Nat Geo's is gotta be worth a fortune. Maybe I'll not have a toilet on my new boat. That way the time I don't spend taking a dump will cancel out the time I'd spent building the boat. It will take a few years to pay off though, because, you know, it's an investment.I'd also like to add that Sooz and I aren't just some young couple who are selling everything to go live the dream and sail around world and all that stuff. If that was the case than yeah, we'd just take the boat we own and go do that. First and foremost were building a four season cruiser who's features will be taylor made for Lake Superior. That boat doesn't exist on the market near here, and the ones that do that are proper vessels for dealing with high latitudes conditions cost a fucking fortune, and are too big. I'm sorry, but I just don't have 50,000+ dollars sitting around to spend all at once. Do you? Then go buy a boat and get off of the forums and sail, and quite being a has-been, nay-sayer, burnt out know-it-all. I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I kinda feel like a lot of people write shit on the forum without even reading what any one else writes, they kind of just say the same schit under whatever topic is put up. All we asked about was going to Vancouver and now here I am schpieling about taking dumps, has-beens, and reiteration. Realistically we are all arguing for the same point, which is, that taking dumps is a complete waste of time and a common pitfall encountered by the amateur builder, during the origami boatbuilding process.  | 31225|31140|2014-07-14 12:50:05|Hannu Venermo|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Its not what I meant. I buy steel (metals) all the time, in 200+ kg quantities (machiney frames). There is very low delta in 200 kg and 2000 kg and 10.000 kg, when you buy from industrial suppliers. Their costs are in million kg/yr quantities, and they just add a bitt and sell to anyone, any qty. Industrial costs are available to anyone who buys 50-100 kg. Certainly for a steel boat. Walk-ins are welcome with cash and positive attitude. My point: Industrial suppliers are the right place to go to, for most stuff in steel boats. Ask a local machine shop. Where do they buy metals ? Look up the local steel works, who actually make it. There are very few. 4 big ones in europe, like Smolt&Spikenbachxx something. Call them - Where to buy your steel ? When you buy industrial stuff, the cost can be 35 times less than a "west marine" rated equivalent. Bilge pumps are an example at 35 times less cost. The industrial version of bilge pump is "harsh duty" evacuation pump. Will run years, can run 24x7 for months, can eat and spit out 1/2" gravel while in a sewer etc. I did not mean to, at least, to comment negatively on anything. Most people dont know, what the real cost of "stuff" is. My clients/contacts make power stations, turbines, aeroplanes, gearboxes,cars etc. Cost of manufactured goods is about 6$/€ / kg for any of above. The same company that makes pieces for airbus et al, is very happy to run you and extra piece at the end of their run. About the same price, plus maybe 100€ small-client fee. When and if its already exactly what you need. Custom order are impossible with big mfct. Smaller ones will make anything, quite cheaply. The guys at a company called gearbox, for example, make gearboxes for cars. If you wanted one, you could get it at around 4000$. They sell at 3000$ +/ in 300.000 qty. It would need to be the exact model they make, and you just order one more "marca acme". Just like the steel price, there are any nr of providers who can find you the right piece, at 1000$ small client piece. Thats their margin. Fair enough. Note the cost of the gear box from say jaguar (or mitsubishi) at car-bits place is about 6000 - 12.000 depending on their markup. Its the same gearbox, made by the same guys. On 14/07/2014 18:16, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > >Your 0.35$ / lg == .80$/kg == 0.6€/kg. > >New steel is approximately the same price. > Perhaps in industrial quantities, on long term contracts, new steel is > the same price as my price from the scrap yard. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31226|31140|2014-07-14 13:03:59|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel boat building group|I am sorry if it came across that way - this is not my intention. Why do you say that ? I have rebuilt a biggish boat, I sail, and build large projects professionally, all my life. Often with no previous experience in a particular field (like an amusement park ride, with legal health and safety issues). I am not negative - I am realistic. This is vastly better than a positive attitude based on unrealistic expectations. The crowd runs a gamut from "broke and need shelter" to "dream of sailing away" to "I will run a profitable boatyard" to "I plan to build a boat- have no experience". There is nothing wrong or bad in any of the sectors. Building boats is not that hard. Anyone can learn. Sailing, alone. Building engines for cars either. Or houses. CNC milling machines. Repairing a fighter jet. All above are doable by normal people. Anything can be done, by some application of work and energy. Using current textbooks and modern machinery makes it easier and cheaper and more productive. I sometimes inject realism in hard kernels. It sometimes may come across as cynical, negative. Its not, and I dont mean it like that. I am very optimistic, positive, and usually seen as a "nice guy". I have made money and business for 20 years seeing through FUD and "brand-sales". Thus its a sore topic, and also a trap many fall into when they start with liveaboards. However, somewhat like Brent, I am sick and tired of snale oil salesmen, and hopelessly optimistic projecs with no basis in fact, especially if with commercial motives. A boat CAN be built fast, easy and cheap. Brent has proven it 10+ times. This requires you to know very well what you do, throughout the process. Planning the whole thing is seldom done, and this mostly results is costs exceeding means. I also try to share my experiences in some fields, where it may prove useful. International stuff is one of those. On 14/07/2014 17:37, 'akenai@...' akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Hannu > You do not appear to be in the least bit interested in building a boat > so why are you here. > Do you have any building experience that would help anyone that is or > wanting to build a steel boat ? Have you rebuilt or finished out the > interior of any boat? Nothing is as cheap as we think it used to be. > > Aaron > -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31227|31140|2014-07-14 13:37:54|Aaron|Re: Steel boat building group|Hannu Thanks for the reply and for the clarification. It is good to have new people here with other experiences.   From: "Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel boat building group   I am sorry if it came across that way - this is not my intention. Why do you say that ? I have rebuilt a biggish boat, I sail, and build large projects professionally, all my life. Often with no previous experience in a particular field (like an amusement park ride, with legal health and safety issues). I am not negative - I am realistic. This is vastly better than a positive attitude based on unrealistic expectations. The crowd runs a gamut from "broke and need shelter" to "dream of sailing away" to "I will run a profitable boatyard" to "I plan to build a boat- have no experience". There is nothing wrong or bad in any of the sectors. Building boats is not that hard. Anyone can learn. Sailing, alone. Building engines for cars either. Or houses. CNC milling machines. Repairing a fighter jet. All above are doable by normal people. Anything can be done, by some application of work and energy. Using current textbooks and modern machinery makes it easier and cheaper and more productive. I sometimes inject realism in hard kernels. It sometimes may come across as cynical, negative. Its not, and I dont mean it like that. I am very optimistic, positive, and usually seen as a "nice guy". I have made money and business for 20 years seeing through FUD and "brand-sales". Thus its a sore topic, and also a trap many fall into when they start with liveaboards. However, somewhat like Brent, I am sick and tired of snale oil salesmen, and hopelessly optimistic projecs with no basis in fact, especially if with commercial motives. A boat CAN be built fast, easy and cheap. Brent has proven it 10+ times. This requires you to know very well what you do, throughout the process. Planning the whole thing is seldom done, and this mostly results is costs exceeding means. I also try to share my experiences in some fields, where it may prove useful. International stuff is one of those. On 14/07/2014 17:37, 'akenai@...' akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Hannu > You do not appear to be in the least bit interested in building a boat > so why are you here. > Do you have any building experience that would help anyone that is or > wanting to build a steel boat ? Have you rebuilt or finished out the > interior of any boat? Nothing is as cheap as we think it used to be. > > Aaron > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 -- #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125activity span .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 dd.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 dd.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 dd.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125last p span.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 div#ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 .ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 input, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125 #ygrps-yiv-1985153952yiv5336186125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1985153952 | 31228|31140|2014-07-14 14:02:58|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Remember that a critical role of any forum is to be a resource for people wanting to learn about the topic at hand. Varying opinions are important for this to happen. If everyone thinks the exact same thing and no one questions anything you don't really have a very valuable forum.In this regard this particular quote of yours is important:"I'm sorry, but I just don't have 50,000+ dollars sitting around to spend all at once. Do you? Then go buy a boat and get off of the forums and sail, and quite being a has-been, nay-sayer, burnt out know-it-all."Just knowing that you are likely going to need ~$50K to build the Brentyacht you want over time is valuable information. If someone thinks they can do it for $15K and they get started under that illusion, they are going to be in for a really expensive surprise or will end up with a rusting shell in their backyard. That's why these actual numbers are important. It's how interested people can make an informed decision.Whether you spend that $50K immediately for a finished boat and a few years of cruising - or over the course of several years put it into the boat you are building yourself is completely your call. No right, no wrong, no nay-saying. Just facts.Peace.| 31229|31140|2014-07-14 14:39:07|Aaron|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Well said sir   From: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 8:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island   I like how most forum topics devolve into a typical "man vs man, your-wrong-I'm right-a-thon." It seems the forums are more of an endurance test than anything else. Realistically, we are all arguing for the same point. I must commend the creative ways of reiterating the same thing, though.Building a boat will cost money. So will my next doctor visit, and so will my next meal. Whatever, it's all the same. Money comes, and money goes. Money is not the ultimate law which governs every god damn thing out there. If it is for you, then that is your problem, and not mine. Mind you, I'm not a rich kid and I do have debts like everyone else.When I total my costs I won't be adding labor. I don't know why you would. If time is money then all that time I've spent on the shitter reading old Nat Geo's is gotta be worth a fortune. Maybe I'll not have a toilet on my new boat. That way the time I don't spend taking a dump will cancel out the time I'd spent building the boat. It will take a few years to pay off though, because, you know, it's an investment.I'd also like to add that Sooz and I aren't just some young couple who are selling everything to go live the dream and sail around world and all that stuff. If that was the case than yeah, we'd just take the boat we own and go do that. First and foremost were building a four season cruiser who's features will be taylor made for Lake Superior. That boat doesn't exist on the market near here, and the ones that do that are proper vessels for dealing with high latitudes conditions cost a fucking fortune, and are too big. I'm sorry, but I just don't have 50,000+ dollars sitting around to spend all at once. Do you? Then go buy a boat and get off of the forums and sail, and quite being a has-been, nay-sayer, burnt out know-it-all. I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I kinda feel like a lot of people write shit on the forum without even reading what any one else writes, they kind of just say the same schit under whatever topic is put up. All we asked about was going to Vancouver and now here I am schpieling about taking dumps, has-beens, and reiteration. Realistically we are all arguing for the same point, which is, that taking dumps is a complete waste of time and a common pitfall encountered by the amateur builder, during the origami boatbuilding process.   #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 -- #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639activity span .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 dd.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 dd.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 dd.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639last p span.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 div#ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 .ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 input, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639 #ygrps-yiv-1926972427yiv0858681639ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1926972427 | 31230|31140|2014-07-14 17:45:36|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|My schpieling wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I was just trying to inject some humor and a response beyond the usual. Now we all know a little more about each other.My situation is a little unusual, due to the generosity of the boatyards owner, and I suspect I'll come in well under $50,000. Probably around $20-30,000, maybe even less. I'm going for the 31.I got a quote for steel at $5,500-6,500, minus a grand if I take the b-grade steel. I've already got maybe 1/4 of all my steel needs, both stainless and mild, plus my ballast in lead, in the bush. I've already got all my tools, and an engine.Does a grand for paint (don't need anti fouling here on freshwater) sound reasonable?Another grand for foam?Another grand for rods?Another grand for the acrylic for windows?Rigging? Less than a grand for galvanized?I've already got everything to finish out the boat. Mooring gear, galley stuff, fasteners, blocks, wood, toilet, all that. I know I said I wasn't going to have a toilet, but I'm pretty sure part of me is full of shit, so I'd better have one just in case. | 31231|31140|2014-07-14 19:09:44|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Then and now.....Trying to ignore inflation....I know I am generalizing but this is what I have noticed over the years since I built my boat.  FWIW, I launched my boat in 1992.Items made from commodities are more expensive.   Prices are volatile but steel is more expensive.  It is much harder to find clear close grained high quality wood. I used to buy clear fir relatively cheap.  It costs a fortune now and close grained high quality timber is much harder to find.  Copper is expensive.   I am not sure but I think that anything from aluminum is probably cheaper.  It is more commonly used architecturally and you can get a wide variety of extrusions now.Paint is more expensive, but better quality.   They have made some advancements with paint but the environmental rules and regulations have made it more expensive to manufacture.A new diesel is more expensive.  I bought my brand new Isuzu 35 hp diesel, mounts and gearbox for less than $5000.  Nowadays it would be much more, probably triple or quadruple the price.  The good thing though is there are a lot more used diesels available and cheap diesels from Asia are a possibility.Electronics are much cheaper and more reliable.  A satnav back then would have been thousands of dollars.  You can get a used gps now for almost nothing.  Radars and depth sounders are much cheaper and more reliable now.  Charts are cheap or free if you have a friend with Cmap. With so many used boats and gear available, you can now buy a lot of equipment, fittings and hardware used.    Buying a used boat or a wreck and taking the gear off it is possible.   Used sails are cheap.   Stainless steel hardware is now more common and cheaper and there is a lot of used equipment available.  Shipping is relatively cheap and the internet and websites like ebay make it easy to buy something almost anywhere.    Rebuilding refitting old gear can take time.In my opinion, I think it probably all comes out more or less even or maybe a bit cheaper.....it really depends on what you end up putting on your boat and how much used equipment you are willing to use.  For instance the difference between a new or used diesel or new and used sails could be tens of thousands of dollars.   The real difference between then and now for someone wanting a boat and wanting to sail offshore is not the cost of building.  It is that used boats have become much cheaper.  Back then, I would never have been able to afford a used boat.  They would have been $80k to 100K for the equivalent boat so building was the only thing possible for me.  I was just out of school, I had no money but it allowed me to go along and build as I saved my money.  It took me one year to save money for the steel.  I then worked at my regular job during the day and the boat at night and on weekends and spent money as I earned it.  I had either money and no time or time and no money.  I never had both.   I was young and couldn't afford to quit my job and work full time on the boat.   I average about 20 hours a week building the boat but it still took time.  I spent months rebuilding items that I couldn't afford new.  I cast and built my own bronze opening portholes.   This probably cost me a month alone.  I like them but I would never do that again.  With used boats so cheap, it is different now.  I could work my job, save my money and in probably one year have a boat and be sailing.   I am not saying the boat would be as good.  All I am saying is that I could do it.As I previously said, I loved building the boat....I learned a lot and I have a fantastic boat now.  I salute anyone who jumps in, commits and finishes a boat.  It is a tremendous accomplishment.   Just go in with your eyes open and don't tell me you are going to make money on it or tell me that it financially makes sense.| 31232|568|2014-07-16 14:03:11|Gord Schnell|40' Brent Swain| Brents' only 40 ft. is for sale! She is virtually complete:Only needs:  Interior cabinetry woodwork (all systems complete). Stand the rig - it is complete - no extras required. Hull - Final paint.If your interested, give me a call @ 604-728-4704 or email: "gschnell@..."Gord| 31233|568|2014-07-16 19:08:12|brentswain38|Re: 40' Brent Swain|Gord. Why don't you stand the rig and come out sailing? You have too much in her to quit now.| 31234|31140|2014-07-16 19:16:46|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|My interior cost me around $50 total with salvaged wood including some beautiful tropical hardwoods form motorcycle crates from Asia,. I bought very little wood new. While they have gone to steel, I hear window glass comes in beautiful tropical hardwoods. Plywood which has been used in the weather for some time is far more reliable  than new from the lumber yard.Recent clients started on plastic boats ,but concluded that the only way to get exactly what they want, is to build. There is a lot of stock plastic crap out there, if one is wiling to live in the drippy ,leaky condentsatio0n soaked plastic boat. Most will end up wanting something dryer, and there is not  a whole lot available in that category| 31235|31140|2014-07-16 19:18:00|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Your numbers sound about right.| 31236|568|2014-07-16 19:22:00|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: 40' Brent Swain|Hi Brent. Good to hear from you. I'll ask you to keep this between us.. If you will. I have had a head injury and it has made progress on the boat slow to impossible. My memory is not very useful anymore. No one is more distressed about this than Debbie and I. I am hoping I can recover some of my investment. If you are able to promote a sale, I would be most greatful.How are you? Haven't heard from you in a long while. GordSent from my iPhone On Jul 16, 2014, at 4:08 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Gord. Why don't you stand the rig and come out sailing? You have too much in her to quit now. | 31237|31140|2014-07-16 19:22:41|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|$35 K is definitely doable. That is why one should make up all the bits and pieces in advance when you dont have the expense of  a building site. The more time you have to scrounge, the cheaper things will be. When you build your own boat, it is a pay as you go plan, without interest, interest which can double the cost of a bought boat. No you wont have all the expenses hit at once. You can do a lot of cruising and living aboard,  before finishing the boat| 31238|31140|2014-07-16 19:23:33|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Patton said 'When everyone is thinking alike, then someone is not thinking."| 31239|31140|2014-07-16 19:30:12|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|If I had listened to the naysayers I would have spent my life as they did ,working and making up excuses as to why I had no alternative,  instead of working only a month a year since my mid 20's and cruising most of the South Pacific Islands which interested me ,as well as cruising the BC coast year round . Would I trade my life for theirs? Not a Chance!Such conservative thinkers are followers not leaders ,and have not contributed a single advancement to humanity , but have simply attacked anyone who has.| 31240|31140|2014-07-16 19:32:40|brentswain38|Re: Steel boat building group|Good question to ask anyone offering  steel boat advice. "What have you done?" The most outspoken critics are often those who have done nothing, and have zero hands on experience in the subject at hand.Like you Smackdaddy>| 31241|31140|2014-07-16 19:34:40|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Same here in BC. We used to  find piles of everything  we wanted, in a single trip to the scrapyard. Now it takes many trips to find what we want.| 31242|31140|2014-07-16 19:36:44|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Why would anyone who can build a steel boat ,buy an anchor or anchor winch ,when they are capable of building a far better one, for scrap prices?| 31243|31140|2014-07-16 19:38:36|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|That boat did a circumnavigation via the Red Sea. You can  read about the trip in his book"Around  the World on Viski" a hard book to put down.| 31244|31140|2014-07-16 22:04:58|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I'm starting to think you don't have much experience with long-term cruising in a modern plastic boat.That's perfectly understandable given your devotion to steel, but "drippy ,leaky condentsatio0n soaked" is a bit of a stretch.If participants in the thread after willing to consider other materials after building and owning a steel boat, even plastic, it can't be all bad.No, plastic boats are not as "bullet-proof" as steel, but let's at least keep the discussion reasonable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My interior cost me around $50 total with salvaged wood including some beautiful tropical hardwoods form motorcycle crates from Asia,. I bought very little wood new. While they have gone to steel, I hear window glass comes in beautiful tropical hardwoods. Plywood which has been used in the weather for some time is far more reliable  than new from the lumber yard.Recent clients started on plastic boats ,but concluded that the only way to get exactly what they want, is to build. There is a lot of stock plastic crap out there, if one is wiling to live in the drippy ,leaky condentsatio0n soaked plastic boat. Most will end up wanting something dryer, and there is not  a whole lot available in that category| 31245|31140|2014-07-16 23:03:44|Brian Stannard|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Drippy, condensation soaked applies to any boat that is not insulated - steel, aluminum, fiberglass, and even wood to a certain extent. Leaks in a fiberglass boat relates to good quality of build and maintenance. On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 7:04 PM, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I'm starting to think you don't have much experience with long-term cruising in a modern plastic boat.That's perfectly understandable given your devotion to steel, but "drippy ,leaky condentsatio0n soaked" is a bit of a stretch. If participants in the thread after willing to consider other materials after building and owning a steel boat, even plastic, it can't be all bad.No, plastic boats are not as "bullet-proof" as steel, but let's at least keep the discussion reasonable. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My interior cost me around $50 total with salvaged wood including some beautiful tropical hardwoods form motorcycle crates from Asia,. I bought very little wood new. While they have gone to steel, I hear window glass comes in beautiful tropical hardwoods. Plywood which has been used in the weather for some time is far more reliable  than new from the lumber yard. Recent clients started on plastic boats ,but concluded that the only way to get exactly what they want, is to build. There is a lot of stock plastic crap out there, if one is wiling to live in the drippy ,leaky condentsatio0n soaked plastic boat. Most will end up wanting something dryer, and there is not  a whole lot available in that category -- CheersBrian | 31246|31140|2014-07-16 23:24:59|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Exactly. Thanks for the clarification Brian.| 31247|31140|2014-07-17 18:59:49|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Plastic boat owners have told me they have to rebed all deck hardware every few years . Welded down deck hardware never  needs rebedding. All stock plastic boats need  a lot of insulation added to make them liveable in cold climates. You have to get past the insulation every time you have to rebed deck hardware, something you never have to  do with  welded down deck hardware. I have met a lot of guys who would have bought the brentboats currently for sale, if they were twin keelers, with wheelhouses . The wheelhouse is not all that hard to add, twin keels are an entirely different matter. In the 80s , most of the boats I built were single keelers. Now over 80% are twin keelers, and most of those who went for single keelers wish they had twin keelers. Cost of moorage and bureaucracy involved has a lot to do with that. It takes a high tidal range to make the most of twin keelers.If you want a single keeler , then buying one is definitely a better idea , unless you enjoy the building process, as a hobby . Some enjoy the building more than the cruising. To each his own.| 31248|31248|2014-07-17 19:06:58|brentswain38|Touch up|After grinding dings and chips, I have begun to think it would be a good idea to simply rent  compressor for  a half day, and buy a cheap 20 dollar sand blaster for cleaning the dings and chips. Beach sand works fine with them , if it is dry and strained thru a window screen . A few buckets off the nearest beach, above the salt line, would do the trick. It would give you a much better surface , probably in less time and effort than grinding. While those blasters are slow , for  a few dings and chips, the  time would not be all that much anyway. Then you would be putting your paint on the best surface possible. Ground surfaces are nowhere near as good.| 31249|31140|2014-07-17 20:12:38|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|They shouldn't let having a single keel stop them.   I really like having the single keel.  I have all my tanks down in the keel where the weight is low and they are very large tanks.  The keel has a total of 125 imperial gallons of water and 90 gallons of diesel.  I was only on a few bilge keelers but they ended up putting tanks under the settee or under the cockpit.   I guess if you have a water maker, this is less of an issue.If I want to beach the boat, it is a bit more work but I can use my sheer legs or careen it.  It is not something you need to do every day.If I was building again, I would go with a single keel but have permanent tubes or attachments for sheer legs.   I would probably go for a large wheel house that includes the galley but only if it didn't make the bunks too restricted in the bow or too short on the settees.  I am sure it could be squeezed in.  On larger vessels, a wheelhouse is a no brainer.  If it is done right, a wheelhouse is less windage than a dodger.I was dreaming/toying with my own design for an Origami 48 with a wheelhouse a few years ago.  There are a few sketches showing what I mean.  The boat has a very large wheelhouse but it is actually less windage than a dodger which would end up sticking up higher.https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Paul%20Wilson%27s%20File/  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Plastic boat owners have told me they have to rebed all deck hardware every few years . Welded down deck hardware never  needs rebedding. All stock plastic boats need  a lot of insulation added to make them liveable in cold climates. You have to get past the insulation every time you have to rebed deck hardware, something you never have to  do with  welded down deck hardware. I have met a lot of guys who would have bought the brentboats currently for sale, if they were twin keelers, with wheelhouses . The wheelhouse is not all that hard to add, twin keels are an entirely different matter. In the 80s , most of the boats I built were single keelers. Now over 80% are twin keelers, and most of those who went for single keelers wish they had twin keelers. Cost of moorage and bureaucracy involved has a lot to do with that. It takes a high tidal range to make the most of twin keelers.If you want a single keeler , then buying one is definitely a better idea , unless you enjoy the building process, as a hobby . Some enjoy the building more than the cruising. To each his own.| 31250|31140|2014-07-17 22:52:44|Brian Stannard|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|None of the original deck hardware on my boat leaks after 37 years because it was properly bedded with non-drying butyl. The only leaks I have had are from items installed incorrectly by previous owners. On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 3:59 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Plastic boat owners have told me they have to rebed all deck hardware every few years . Welded down deck hardware never  needs rebedding. All stock plastic boats need  a lot of insulation added to make them liveable in cold climates. You have to get past the insulation every time you have to rebed deck hardware, something you never have to  do with  welded down deck hardware.  I have met a lot of guys who would have bought the brentboats currently for sale, if they were twin keelers, with wheelhouses . The wheelhouse is not all that hard to add, twin keels are an entirely different matter.  In the 80s , most of the boats I built were single keelers. Now over 80% are twin keelers, and most of those who went for single keelers wish they had twin keelers. Cost of moorage and bureaucracy involved has a lot to do with that. It takes a high tidal range to make the most of twin keelers. If you want a single keeler , then buying one is definitely a better idea , unless you enjoy the building process, as a hobby . Some enjoy the building more than the cruising. To each his own. -- CheersBrian | 31251|31140|2014-07-17 23:32:58|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Opus:"They shouldn't let having a single keel stop them.   I really like having the single keel.  I have all my tanks down in the keel where the weight is low and they are very large tanks.  The keel has a total of 125 imperial gallons of water and 90 gallons of diesel.  I was only on a few bilge keelers but they ended up putting tanks under the settee or under the cockpit.   I guess if you have a water maker, this is less of an issue."Wow. That's some impressive tankage! FWIW, I agree with your take. The twin keeler has got some advantages, sure - but NO WAY would I want to spend 3-4 times the amount of money to build one over what's already on the market ready to go. That makes no sense at all unless, like was said above, you are only in this for the joy of building. And this is especially true considering your ideas for the sheer legs for the few times you might need to beach her. That's some creative thinking.Actually, with Brent's admirable views on recycling and creative re-use of things, I'm sure he's a strong advocate of buy-used before you ever build-new. So I'm sure he's just talking hypotheticals.Brian:"None of the original deck hardware on my boat leaks after 37 years because it was properly bedded with non-drying butyl. The only leaks I have had are from items installed incorrectly by previous owners."I agree. I'm starting to think Brent was on some really, really crappy plastic boats and that has forever skewed his perception of reality. I've never heard of having to rebed every few years if it's even close to being done right.| 31252|31140|2014-07-17 23:45:32|opuspaul|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I should say that the keel is 3 inches deeper and about 6 inches longer than Brent's plans.   The lead  fills about half way up the forward half of the keel.   The water tank is above that and goes above the keel and expands out sideways to a level about 2 inches below the cabin sole.  This leaves a small space to stow some heavy items like spare anchor chain.  The fuel tank is in the rear half of the keel and goes from the bottom to the top of the keel.  I also have a fuel day tank of about 10 gallons that gravity feeds the diesel and a heater.  It is a lot of tankage but being able to have a shower and rinse the salt off after a swim is a wonderful thing.| 31253|31248|2014-07-18 09:59:38|Shawn Green|Re: Touch up|I fully intend to build an air compressor into my boat under the cockpit in order to run my mini sand blaster, as well as my plasma cutter and air ratchets. Excessive, i know, but i love compressed air tools!| 31254|31248|2014-07-18 13:54:04|Matt Malone|Re: Touch up| And in a steel boat, a compressor makes a piracy-deterring flame thrower all the easier.   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 06:59:37 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Touch up   I fully intend to build an air compressor into my boat under the cockpit in order to run my mini sand blaster, as well as my plasma cutter and air ratchets. Excessive, i know, but i love compressed air tools! | 31255|31248|2014-07-18 17:25:49|opuspaul|Re: Touch up|I like it.   Have you thought of using a dive compressor so that you can fill dive tanks?| 31256|31248|2014-07-18 17:52:21|Matt Malone|Re: Touch up| Dive compressors are very expensive and very high pressure.  I expect the overhaul would be really expensive, and lifetime, if used for tools would be shorter.  But a dive compressor is a cool idea.   One might have two compressors, both small, one for tools, one for tanks, and if anything is going to be larger, make it the pressure tank on the tool compressor, one can always wait for the scuba tank to fill.     http://precisiondiving.net/blog/tips-for-owning-your-own-scuba-air-compressor/http://www.scuba-diving-smiles.com/scuba-compressor.htmlhttp://www.leisurepro.com/p-mxa35/max-air-35-scuba-tank-compressor?utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=cj_3925468&utm_campaign=3925468Some links on dive compressors....  $3,000 is a lot of refills at the wharf, or a few extra tanks....   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 14:25:49 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Touch up   I like it.   Have you thought of using a dive compressor so that you can fill dive tanks? | 31257|31140|2014-07-18 18:27:24|Mark Hamill|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island| Speaking of unfinished boats for sale--a Spray 28 foot for $2000 on the Comox Valley Craiglist   http://comoxvalley.en.craigslist.ca/boa/4542419078.html| 31258|31258|2014-07-19 10:42:26|badpirate36|Galley drains above/below water line|I had assumed Galley drain thru hulls were always above the water line. However, I have read on some other forums there are plenty of boats plumbed below the water line. Although I'm a little nervous about this practice, it would locate the thru hull in a much more convenient location, resulting in the valve being exercised much more often. but, what about all the floaty bits that go down the drain, do they just float half way down the drain hose at the water line until they clog the drain or begin to smell? Does anyone have experience with below water line galley drains? Thanx Tom | 31259|31258|2014-07-19 15:07:21|M.J. Malone|Re: Galley drains above/below water line| Throw a bucket of seawater down after to flush out the floaty bits.  Both my boats have their galley through hull below the waterline.  No problem.   Matt "badpirate@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I had assumed Galley drain thru hulls were always above the water line. However, I have read on some other forums there are plenty of boats plumbed below the water line. Although I'm a little nervous about this practice, it would locate the thru hull in a much more convenient location, resulting in the valve being exercised much more often. but, what about all the floaty bits that go down the drain, do they just float half way down the drain hose at the water line until they clog the drain or begin to smell? Does anyone have experience with below water line galley drains? Thanx Tom  | 31260|31260|2014-07-19 19:37:36|aguysailing|Beware chaffe|Sailing remote BC coast yesterday (engine and electronics all off) I smelled smoke coming from engine compartment.  The large wire from the alternator to the battery had chafed through at the engine mount turning the touch point glowing red lots of smoke.  Taped it up and protected with small piece of bilge house.  This could have happened at night.  Check where your wires touch metal.  ...... Gary| 31261|31258|2014-07-19 19:42:07|brentswain38|Re: Galley drains above/below water line|I put my sink drain above the chine, so   I can scrub it out with a round brush, from my dinghy, when it gets smelly. You can close the valve and pour  a bit of draino down it, and let it sit a while| 31262|31248|2014-07-19 19:47:26|brentswain38|Re: Touch up|I once used  a scuba tanks for sandblasting with the 150 PSI from the first stage of the regulator. Cleaned it quickly, but emptied the tank quickly. If you had a scuba compressor aboard, it would work for touch up of small dings| 31263|31140|2014-07-19 19:49:03|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|There is not much else you could use that space for anyway.| 31264|31140|2014-07-19 19:51:55|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I think 1  1/2 times would be more accurate . You could get that back in saved moorage costs in a relatively short time. Tankage in a twin keeler goes between the keels and below the pilot house floor.| 31265|31258|2014-07-19 20:06:31|opuspaul|Re: Galley drains above/below water line|I have never had any problems.   I use an 1 1/4 inch hose and valve.  If you are sailing, the wave action can keep things flushed quite well.   If you want it to drain on either tack , the closer to the center-line  the sink is located and and the lower down the drain, the better.People always freak out about thru hulls.  I have had no problem at all since launch in 1992 and I worry about them no more than I worry about the hoses on my car.   Nothing is maintenance free.  It just takes some common sense.   Just check for chafe on the hoses and make sure they don't get too brittle or too old.  I close the thru hulls if I leave the boat for a long time but it is no big deal.  I don't close the thru-hull for every use of the sink.   The head valve is closed every time because if it is left open the bowl may overflow.   It quickly becomes habit and the valve is easily accessible.   I have to watch with guests on board that they do it correctly.  If they forget, they will only do it once :).| 31266|31258|2014-07-19 22:08:22|Brian Stannard|Re: Galley drains above/below water line|Agree sink drains should be below the waterline close to center for draining on either tack.If there is a proper anti-siphon loop on the head intake the bowl will not fill. Placement depends on which type of head you have. On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 5:06 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have never had any problems.   I use an 1 1/4 inch hose and valve.  If you are sailing, the wave action can keep things flushed quite well.   If you want it to drain on either tack , the closer to the center-line  the sink is located and and the lower down the drain, the better. People always freak out about thru hulls.  I have had no problem at all since launch in 1992 and I worry about them no more than I worry about the hoses on my car.   Nothing is maintenance free.  It just takes some common sense.   Just check for chafe on the hoses and make sure they don't get too brittle or too old.  I close the thru hulls if I leave the boat for a long time but it is no big deal.  I don't close the thru-hull for every use of the sink.   The head valve is closed every time because if it is left open the bowl may overflow.   It quickly becomes habit and the valve is easily accessible.   I have to watch with guests on board that they do it correctly.  If they forget, they will only do it once :). -- CheersBrian | 31267|31258|2014-07-20 13:56:20|Mark Hamill|Re: Galley drains above/below water line| Make sure the sink outlet is placed deeper down so that it empties overboard at all angles of heel. Mine is higher up and I think it may be a problem emptying on one tack and possibly also allowing water into the cabin. If it had been installed directly below the sink drain it would have been OK. The outlet is 1 1/2". Will install a back flow preventer. Also, you might consider installing a standard sink P trap--rings and earings etc still fall down the sink and a straight out drain will lose them--in my experience there is no lose in drain function. As far as sinks go--keep an eye out for deeper smaller sinks in Habitat for Humanity, metal recyclers, garage sales--I got a pair of new ones for $10 once. MarkH| 31268|31268|2014-07-20 14:41:08|brentswain38|Deck conduits|Deck conduits should have a 180 degree turn after they come thru the deck.That way the wiring goes uphill when entering them. Water wont follow wiring uphill.| 31269|31269|2014-07-21 10:02:33|smallboatvoyaguer|Primed Steel Supply in Midwest US|Anyone know of a steel supply that does shotblasting/priming in the Midwest? I can't find anyone that offers this. | 31270|31258|2014-07-21 20:01:08|brentswain38|Re: Galley drains above/below water line|My sink outlet is just above the chine . so I can clean it with a brush from a dinghy or put  a plug in it when I leave the boat for a long time. In 30 years I have had no problem with it. In over 40 years of living aboard I have found no use for a deeper than normal sink. With deeper sinks it is harder to keep the bottom above the waterline. Check your sink with a magnet before buying it, the magnetic  ones rust like hell in the  tropics. Ditto sink drains.| 31271|31258|2014-07-22 09:39:05|badpirate36|Re: Galley drains above/below water line|thanx for the replies, I'll install it this week!... or maybe next week lol| 31272|31272|2014-07-22 11:02:32|wild_explorer|Touch-up galvanizing spray|Reasonably cheap galvanizing spray (93% zinc) for touch-up or painting welds during construction. Comes in 20 oz cans (price is about $30-35/Gal if you buy pack of 6 or 12). Available from HD in individual can or pack. Look for flat (not bright) color. If there is no "bright" in the name - it is "flat" ;)Professional Galvanizing Compound Spray Product Page Professional Galvanizing Compound Spray Product ... Rust-Oleum® Professional Galvanizing Compound Spray applies galvanized finish to metal. Use on wrought iron and welded metal, gutters, chain-link and more. View on www.rustoleum.com Preview by Yahoo   Rust-Oleum Professional 20 oz. Flat Gray Cold Galvanizing Compound (6-Pack)-7585838 at The Home Depot Rust-Oleum Professional 20 oz. Flat Gray Cold Galvanizi... Visit The Home Depot to buy Rust-Oleum Professional 20 oz. Flat Gray Cold Galvanizing Compound (6-Pack) 7585838at The Home Depot View on www.homedepot.com Preview by Yahoo  | 31273|31272|2014-07-22 16:39:32|brentswain38|Re: Touch-up galvanizing spray|I used a lot of that stuff on my boat 30 years ago. It works well, but a lot of it is inorganic, so epoxies will lift it if you put them on  too soon. Best let it cook in the sun for several weeks, which makes it too hard for epoxy thiners to lift.A friend had some well hardened cold galvanizing on, which was well cooked and hardened. He made the mistake of washing it with thinner, which softened it, before puting his epoxy on. The epoxy peeled of in sheets. Without softening it with thinner, it probably would have given him no problems.| 31274|31140|2014-07-23 21:01:14|silascrosby|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island or Tagish is home from Circumna|Brent, and other forum readers.Tagish, a 36' Swain fin keeler has just returned to Comox fishermens dock from a trouble-free 5 year world circumnavigation via the Cape of Good Hope.You will remember the boat as built by Win and Maggie up on Minto Rd, launched around 1991 or so.Brian and Dorothy are moving ashore in Comox and will be selling their 'bulletproof' voyaging machine.I don't know any of the details yet, but I will suggest to Brian that he post here when he wants to get the process of selling underway.Their worst weather conditions of the whole circumnavigation were the 24 hours of gale conditions approaching the BC coast in late June. They chucked out a gale-rider drogue for a while to eliminate the risk of knockdown, and get rest for the landfall.Incidentally they used a very cool iphone app that listens to audio signals from the HF radio to get very high quality weatherfax charts, with no cable. Allowed them to dodge all but this one gale as they pushed the N Pacific cruising season a little bit.Steve, formerly of Silas Crosby ( which is now happily cruising around somewhere in the Salish Sea under command of new owners Matt and Jillian and daughter Emmarain)| 31275|31140|2014-07-24 04:08:04|boatwayupnorth|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island or Tagish is home from Circumna|Steve,enjoying the new life of a land-lubber?I would like to know the name of this iphone app. Could you post it?Walter| 31276|31140|2014-07-25 18:25:55|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island or Tagish is home from Circumna|I'd suggest they spend the summer cruising BC, now that they are back in paradise.Boat sales in mid sumer are the  slowest time of year anyway.Great party on Shark Spit on the full moon in mid august.| 31277|31272|2014-07-25 19:22:14|brentswain38|Re: Touch-up galvanizing spray| Cold galvanizing spray is notorious for clogging up, and not wanting to come out of the can. Give it plenty of shaking before you try to use it ,then give it a whole lot more shaking. Make sure there is "a whole lot of shakin going on." The brush on stuff settles into a lump of zinc  in the bottom of the can, which takes a lot of stirring to get it ready for brushing on. Once you let the zinc plug the bottom of a spray can, there is no getting it  out ,other than shooting a hole in the top of the can ,  then taking the top off and mixing it in a separate container, then brushing it on.| 31278|31140|2014-07-27 18:41:10|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island or Tagish is home from Circumna|Just after a rough passage is not the best time to make any quick , impulsive decisions.| 31279|5874|2014-07-28 05:42:33|badpirate36|Re: Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|Can anyone direct me to the picture of the pipe rail block for the jib sheet lead? I've been looking thru the photo albums to no avail, but I know its there somewhere.ThanxTom | 31280|31140|2014-07-29 09:30:56|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Actually, I think that's the perfect time to make a decision like this. You've seen what the boat can really do - and whether it's for you or not. You never discover this kind of thing in placid conditions. So I don't see it as impulsive at all - it's actually a very informed decision.| 31281|5874|2014-07-29 12:29:43|theboilerflue|Re: Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|I've been using something apparently called a "barberhauler" I built the bilwark rail block thing and they work well but they're not easily moved, before I'd have a snap shackle up forward of the block that I'd snap the sheet in when going off the wind but still there were only two points of adjustment. I welded a cleat midships and have a block on a line that you can pull in and cleat off to move the sheeting angle forward, it gives you the full length of the bulwark for adjustment and can't really fail or jam. I wrapped the homemade aluminuium block with some rubber to keep it from knock the paint off the hull although witht the jib sheets running through them they don't really fly around like you might imagine. At worst you have a cleat midships. I imagine there are some pictures of the ones I made in my folder.| 31282|5874|2014-07-29 15:40:23|brentswain38|Re: Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|I used something similar in trade wind squalls ,when the jib was reefed and the sheet lead then had to temporarily move forward, until the squall passed, I just tied a bowline over the sheet, led to the chain plates ,  so banging around was not  a problem. You could tie a short enough, loose  line to the top rail, to make it impossible for the block to reach any paint.| 31283|5874|2014-07-29 15:46:32|opuspaul|Re: Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|I prefer my blocks with a becket.  You can then put a piece of shock cord from the becket to the handrail.   This holds the block up and keeps it from rattling and making noise when the wind is light and keeps it from slamming around and chipping paint in other conditions.Cheers, Paul| 31284|31284|2014-07-30 00:48:40|Gord Schnell|Brents' only Brent Swain 40 is FOR SALE|   Well Gentlemen"With Amazing Grace",  is officially FOR SALE.I'm open to offers, but let's try and keep it realistic.She is finished except for the cabin furniture, a final color coat and standing the rig.I have a spreadsheet of Equipment and a PowerPoint of features and a tour of the boat.If anyone knows of a good site for posting some of the sale related materials, please let me know @; "gschnell@..."Thanks All  | 31285|31248|2014-07-31 00:00:11|wild_explorer|Re: Touch up|Instead of renting a compressor, you can make one from semi-truck air brake compressor (driven by boat engine). Semi truck compressors are designed to keep air pressure 100-125 psi all the time (150 max). You just need to add air tank (or use one from the truck). It should be available from semi-truck wrecking yards.May be someone knows what airflow is for such compressors?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :After grinding dings and chips, I have begun to think it would be a good idea to simply rent  compressor for  a half day, and buy a cheap 20 dollar sand blaster for cleaning the dings and chips. Beach sand works fine with them , if it is dry and strained thru a window screen . A few buckets off the nearest beach, above the salt line, would do the trick. It would give you a much better surface , probably in less time and effort than grinding. While those blasters are slow , for  a few dings and chips, the  time would not be all that much anyway. Then you would be putting your paint on the best surface possible. Ground surfaces are nowhere near as good.| 31286|31286|2014-07-31 00:11:06|aguysailing|Cockpit storage box|Great idea to keep loose ends, ropes etc out of the way so decided finally going to put one it.  Guessing that just a box shape is best bet but would appreciate a pic or 2 for some ideas.... thanks| 31287|31248|2014-07-31 19:18:11|IAN CAMPBELL|Touch up|Best to use black grit from HomeHardware or other supplier of building materials as when inhaled sand is very toxic.| 31288|31286|2014-07-31 19:22:56|IAN CAMPBELL|Cockpit storage box|Made a cardboard template about 12 inches high and designed a bow with attached lids that is welded to the deck at the bow end of the doghouse. Aluminium lids with edges to stop spray, all curved ! with hinges welded to the steel and to the aluminium Half styasinless hinges half aluminium bullet weldable hinges. Added drains to deck box as it is inevitable that water will fill it !| 31289|31248|2014-07-31 19:57:33|Mark Hamill|Re: Touch up| This hit my funny bone--may be from working inside a hot boat. "Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own!| 31290|31290|2014-07-31 22:35:37|don bourgeois|FW: Re: Touch up car a/c compressor|     From: kari [ mailto: kari1234@...] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 9:15 PM To: ' origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ' Subject: Re: Touch up car a/c compressor   I made one once using a car a/c compressor. I think I paid $5 for it. You still need a tank, etc though. Not sure about the cfm but I did paint a couple of cars with it.   Don B. | 31291|21394|2014-08-01 12:46:14|ursus_222|Mooring bit|When Ainsley built this boat I am trying to finish he used 3/16th plate on the deck from the cabin to the chain locker for the winch he was going to use instead of a mooring bit and one of Brent's winches, I am using Brent's method so I am wondering how big of a doubler plate will I need to secure the mooring bit since bracing it below deck is not an option?  There is a flat bar welded under the deck for additional support but I haven't pulled everything off the ceiling to remove the foam yet, hoping to avoid that scenario if I can since I have done so much of it already and still have lots more to do but I am hoping to put off as much of the foam removal as I can so I can get the hot work done in time to blast and paint the boat before the rain starts.  Found a great tool for removing foam, the ROK Oscillating Multi ToolThanks Vic| 31292|21394|2014-08-01 20:07:10|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bit|The deck I put on that boat was 11 gauge.If there is 3/16th on top of that, you don't need a doubler plate.| 31293|21394|2014-08-02 11:09:17|Norm Facey|Re: Mooring bit|Foam removal - an oscillating tool (I have a multimaster, it's great) with a scraper blade is the fastest, cleanest way to trim/remove foam. Gets into spots you can't access with a bread knife.Comes in handy for fitting floors & cabinet work too.| 31294|31248|2014-08-03 18:48:20|brentswain38|Re: Touch up|I don't think you will inhale enough to be toxic on a touch up job, no more than you would playing on the beach. Black stuff is better for inside ,as it doesn't reflect the light ,making it easier to see what you are doing.| 31295|31248|2014-08-03 18:51:31|brentswain38|Re: Touch up|Buying a boat means accepting any kind of crap that's out there, with all its problems.  Most of my clients researched the used boat market and concluded that the only way to get exactly what you want is to build your own. The used boat market is flooded with boats , mostly crap.| 31296|31286|2014-08-03 18:56:18|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit storage box|Some build them just big enough,then end up with crap piled outside. Go big to begin with.| 31297|21394|2014-08-05 15:52:07|ursus_222|Re: Mooring bit|Thanks Brent It looks like Ainsley added another plate so I will probably go with a small 3/16 mild steel doubler plate, maybe 8". This has been a fun project so far I have some changes to make but this is to be expected getting it moved was a nightmare, boat movers are not reliable so I came up with my own method of supporting it so a low boy normally used to haul logging equipment could back under it and bring it to Cowichan Bay.  This boat really works for me, my old hull will be scrapped after I have  stripped the mast and anything else I can use on the new boat. I will have a lot of extra parts, an engine, lead or even complete keels when I figure out where I can scrap it and when I know I will post what I have available on here for anyone buidling a hull or needing something I might have. Trying to work out the best way to install the cockpit coamings  since the underside is already foamed and covered with wood paneling, thinking about tabs to reduce welding and a removable coaming? Maybe use some SS flatbar for the section where the winches bolt down? CheersVic| 31298|21394|2014-08-05 15:57:03|ursus_222|Re: Mooring bit|I have also used 7018 to weld SS to mild when the mild is contaminated and 309l is full of perosity, works fine.| 31299|31299|2014-08-06 20:11:14|brian33greenboat|Brent Swain 36 for sale|Tagish, a Brent Swain 36 is now for sale.  She is just back from a 5 year circumnavigation.  (www.tagish.blogspot.com).   It is the single keel version and is now moored in Comox, BC, Canada.  If interested, it is now listed with a broker for $65,000.  It will be in their listings on Tue, Aug 12    goto   willsmarineboatbrokers.com    | 31300|21394|2014-08-07 19:29:59|mauro gonzaga|Re: Mooring bit|It might crack. Very risky, don't do that in strentgh welds.Mauro On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 9:57 PM, "ursus_222@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have also used 7018 to weld SS to mild when the mild is contaminated and 309l is full of perosity, works fine. #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 -- #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711activity span .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 dd.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 dd.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 dd.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711last p span.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 div#ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 .ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 input, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711 #ygrps-yiv-1808832768yiv4354712711ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1808832768 | 31301|21394|2014-08-12 16:53:03|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bit|\There is a lot of welding of stainless trim which doesn't require a lot of strength. Yes high stressed parts should be welded with stainless, but you can save a lot of money doing the low stress areas with 7018. I tried welding stainless to mild steel with 7018, then pounding the shit out of it with a sledgehammer. I couldn't break it. However, 6011 breaks easily on stainless. It is quite brittle.| 31302|21394|2014-08-12 18:52:49|Aaron|Re: Mooring bit|6011 is a quick way to cut SS turn up the amps and it is almost like arc gouging   From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mooring bit   \There is a lot of welding of stainless trim which doesn't require a lot of strength. Yes high stressed parts should be welded with stainless, but you can save a lot of money doing the low stress areas with 7018. I tried welding stainless to mild steel with 7018, then pounding the shit out of it with a sledgehammer. I couldn't break it. However, 6011 breaks easily on stainless. It is quite brittle. #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 -- #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955activity span .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 dd.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 dd.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 dd.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955last p span.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 div#ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 .ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 input, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955 #ygrps-yiv-1094250221yiv0298567955ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1094250221 | 31303|21394|2014-08-13 15:15:11|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bit|Poor man's plasma. Great for cutting inside holes in plate.| 31304|31272|2014-08-16 14:53:38|tomjlee2000|Re: Touch-up galvanizing spray|To.Mr.Swain,          Two quick questions if you have a moment. 1) What would the length of Darma be? (31-?)/as per     s.v.mom site (other boats) 2) Whereabouts of IdefixIV (35') ditto        Any reply appreciated. Thomas Lee /Vic      | 31305|31140|2014-08-17 08:43:53|James Pronk|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|So I am not the only one doing this! From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island Sent: Fri, Jul 11, 2014 1:28:41 PM    Hi everyone, I'm the other half of clove 3 clove and after reading all the boat forums we've decided that everyone is right. We're not going to build a boat anymore. What a silly idea in the first place!  As matter of fact I think I may just sell everything I own and get us a house in the suburbs and start actually getting on with my life. I must have been crazy all these years! I have been saved, and I owe it all to the nay-sayers.  Through the efforts of friends and family I've been able to find over the last five years, because I've been planning on building this boat for awhile, most of our stainless needs, all of the wood for the interior, a wood shop with a pole barn in which to store the boat while fitting the interior, all my plumbing, a composting toilet, a propane system and oven, solar panel, wind generator, inverter, enough scrap to build the keel and skeg, an engine, all of my ballast needs (lead) plus some, rigging, sails, half the running rigging, half my mooring lines, fenders, 2 CQR anchors, a fortress anchor, a folding fishermans anchor, my boom, all my blocks, a space to build the boat with free electric and a toilet and use of cranes. Also chain, anchor rode, buckets full of stainless fasteners, a spinnaker pole, radar, radar mast, and GPS. I sat down and added up the money I'd spent on all this crap the other day and I was shocked! I had spent well over my budget. The total was $00.00 plus tax. Oh, I forgot to add what I'd spent on gas running around to buy all this shit. Can't imagine it was much though, I don't even own a car. Definitely more expensive to build your own boat.   | 31306|31272|2014-08-17 19:57:06|brentswain38|Re: Touch-up galvanizing spray|Darmi is a 36 footer as is Mom.Last I heard Ideafix was in San Carlos ,near Guaymas Mexico.| 31307|31140|2014-08-18 06:27:21|ragnarpar|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|So, james, what are you doing? Getting rid of everything and Buying a house???| 31308|31140|2014-08-18 08:11:01|James Pronk|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|I have 2 houses already!I have all the small stainless steel parts made for a Brent Swain 36. All the decks are cut out, rudder is built, more then half of the lead is collected. I have one of the two keels cut out and ready to put together. I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay. I know what it takes to rebuild someone else's old production boat. They are cheep for a reason, because most of them are junk. The amount of time I have put into fixing up old production boats, I could have built a Brent Boat. The amount of time I put into rebuilding a 32' wooden boat I could have built 2 Brent boats! This Catalina is the 5th boat I have owned and the building flaws are unbelievable, I hope this boat was slapped together on a Friday and finished out on a Monday, and they didn't build all their boats like this one! I have been looking at cheep boats now with the thought to sail it for a year then strip it out and use the parts for my Brent boat. I have an offer on a 35' 1970s floating condo that has been upgraded and upgraded. It has 6 self trailing winches, over 400' of anchor chain and a beautiful mast and sails.It also has a deck and hull that is soaking wet!Comparing this boat to one of Brent's is like comparing a 1985 dodge caravan to a Toyota land cruiser. | 31309|31140|2014-08-19 19:11:46|brentswain38|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|There are a lot of old boats with good rigs winches etc ,which can be put on a proper hull, for a fraction the cost of buying them separately, never mind time saved.. A friend was given an old cement boat with rotted out decks for free. Out of it he got mast, rig , winches ,sails, anchors, anchor rodes,  etc etc, about $25 K worth of gear, for free.| 31310|31310|2014-08-19 19:23:05|brentswain38|Home Depot Fraud|Just bought a Ryobi hammer drill at Home depot.  The sign said 5/8th drill, the box said 5/8th on it ,as did the instruction manual,. It had only a half inch chuck.  When I complained they offered me a hand full of nails. Other wise ,tough shit!Check the size of things before you buy, especially at Home Depot. I doubt this is the first complaint about this they have had. Yet the bullshit, false advertising continues| 31311|31310|2014-08-19 21:55:20|Alan Boucher|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Read the fine print!  And be generally aware how things are made and sold.  Drill chucks commonly come in 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", at least in this country.  I don't think you'll find anyone selling anything else.  What they meant was the drill was capable of drilling a 5/8" hole, if of course you had a drill with a 1/2" shank end and a 5/8" bit end.  You'll find drill sets in the 1/2" - 1" range that have 1/2" shanks.  There are of course other standards for the snap in impact drills, On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Just bought a Ryobi hammer drill at Home depot.  The sign said 5/8th drill, the box said 5/8th on it ,as did the instruction manual,. It had only a half inch chuck.  When I complained they offered me a hand full of nails. Other wise ,tough shit!Check the size of things before you buy, especially at Home Depot. I doubt this is the first complaint about this they have had. Yet the bullshit, false advertising continues -- Al Boucher | 31312|31310|2014-08-20 04:00:33|Aaron|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Heck just buying mens jeans is corrupt. They may say 34 waist but that is just make a fat boy size 36 feel better. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: Alan Boucher alsthe1@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home Depot Fraud Sent: Wed, Aug 20, 2014 1:55:19 AM   Read the fine print!  And be generally aware how things are made and sold.  Drill chucks commonly come in 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", at least in this country.  I don't think you'll find anyone selling anything else.  What they meant was the drill was capable of drilling a 5/8" hole, if of course you had a drill with a 1/2" shank end and a 5/8" bit end.  You'll find drill sets in the 1/2" - 1" range that have 1/2" shanks.  There are of course other standards for the snap in impact drills, On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Just bought a Ryobi hammer drill at Home depot.  The sign said 5/8th drill, the box said 5/8th on it ,as did the instruction manual,. It had only a half inch chuck.  When I complained they offered me a hand full of nails. Other wise ,tough shit!Check the size of things before you buy, especially at Home Depot. I doubt this is the first complaint about this they have had. Yet the bullshit, false advertising continues -- Al Boucher | 31313|31310|2014-08-20 17:10:45|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|The big print says 5/8th. That is deliberately misleading advertising. Most drills will drill  a much larger hole with a hole saw thru plywood. I have found the best way to get heavy rust of is with a chisel in a hammer drill. A centre punch also works for smaller dings, but is nowhere near as effective, or brutal. It leaves quite a clean surface.| 31314|31310|2014-08-20 17:12:53|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|I have found that "Made in China" size 13 boots are smaller than a "Made in Canada" size 11.| 31315|31310|2014-08-21 07:25:41|James Pronk|Re: Home Depot Fraud|I have an air chisel and an air needler for heavy rust. I find the air needler leaves a nice ruff finish for paint. | 31316|31316|2014-08-22 11:19:17|dejongralph|bilge|My BS 36 under construction has a water tank between the keels. The diesel tank is planned to be behind it, under the floor of the wheelhouse. Now if there is unwanted water inside the hull, where will it flow to if there is no bilge. How do you arrange your tanks and bilges(pump)?  | 31317|31140|2014-08-22 21:32:36|ninbubbas|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Yeah - Catalinas are pretty lightly built. But, hey, you and your family have been out sailing. Something to be said for that. It beats not sailing for years while you build, eh?Wooden boat? No way I'd ever touch one of those.| 31318|31316|2014-08-23 11:17:26|Norm Facey|Re: bilge|My thoughts - diesel + water tank should not share a common wall - put a workable distance between the two (enough to get your hand in to weld would be good) and make that your bilge sump. If needed, run a SS pipe thru a tank to convey bilge water. Did that on my beast.| 31319|31316|2014-08-24 16:57:39|brentswain38|Re: bilge|Leave a bit of space between the water tank and the fuel tank, to act as  a bilge sump. About a foot will do.| 31320|31310|2014-08-24 17:03:25|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|I wish they made a good electric version of an air needler.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have an air chisel and an air needler for heavy rust. I find the air needler leaves a nice ruff finish for paint.| 31321|31310|2014-08-24 17:32:46|opuspaul|Re: Home Depot Fraud|There is a rotary tool called an MBX Blaster or Bristle Blaster.    They use them in the field on industrial oil and gas work.  They are very good but expensive. Paulhttp://www.bristle-blaster.com/en/Montipower Bristle Blaster In Action. Montipower Bristle Blaster In Action. MBX Bristle Blasting technology brings an entirely new performance level to power hand tool cleaning for industrial steel surface preparation. Now, a "blast-..... View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wish they made a good electric version of an air needler.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have an air chisel and an air needler for heavy rust. I find the air needler leaves a nice ruff finish for paint. | 31322|31310|2014-08-25 02:00:29|Aaron|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Good tool but doesn't do corners Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home Depot Fraud Sent: Sun, Aug 24, 2014 9:32:45 PM   There is a rotary tool called an MBX Blaster or Bristle Blaster.    They use them in the field on industrial oil and gas work.  They are very good but expensive. Paulhttp://www.bristle-blaster.com/en/Montipower Bristle Blaster In Action. Montipower Bristle Blaster In Action. MBX Bristle Blasting technology brings an entirely new performance level to power hand tool cleaning for industrial steel surface preparation. Now, a "blast-..... View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wish they made a good electric version of an air needler.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have an air chisel and an air needler for heavy rust. I find the air needler leaves a nice ruff finish for paint.  | 31323|31310|2014-08-25 09:19:29|mkriley48|Re: Home Depot Fraud|try a short legnth of 1x19 rigging wire in a hammer drill mike| 31324|31316|2014-08-26 13:13:27|dejongralph|Re: bilge|Bilge between water and diesel tanks.  That will compromise my diesel capacity.  Can I use the front engine foundation plate as the back side for the diesel tank? | 31325|31316|2014-08-26 15:57:04|opuspaul|Re: bilge|I have a common bulkhead between the fuel tank and the water tank.   Both tanks are painted with high build epoxy and it has been no problems.   The bulkhead is 1/4 inch steel and fully welded both sides so I can't see it ever  leaking between the two.   It is a horrible job but I would definitely paint the fuel tank again.   The sump extends into the fuel tank via a sump box extending down at the aft end of the keel.    You could really put it anywhere you want.  It only needs to be large enough for a build pump and automatic switch and a large hose for a manual pump.   Mine will hold about 3 gallons.    I have been on boats that had large sumps going to the bottom of a keel and when you drop anything, it is almost impossible to retrieve it.  The dirt and junk that collects can clog pumps.   It is nice to have a sump that can be reached by hand and cleaned with a rag and a sponge.Cheers, Paul| 31326|31310|2014-08-26 18:43:42|mountain man|Re: Home Depot Fraud| yes, expensive; $1000.00To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:32:45 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home Depot Fraud   There is a rotary tool called an MBX Blaster or Bristle Blaster.    They use them in the field on industrial oil and gas work.  They are very good but expensive. Paulhttp://www.bristle-blaster.com/en/Montipower Bristle Blaster In Action. Montipower Bristle Blaster In Action. MBX Bristle Blasting technology brings an entirely new performance level to power hand tool cleaning for industrial steel surface preparation. Now, a "blast-..... View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wish they made a good electric version of an air needler.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have an air chisel and an air needler for heavy rust. I find the air needler leaves a nice ruff finish for paint.  | 31327|31316|2014-08-27 15:29:32|brentswain38|Re: bilge|With a thin epoxy, it will seep into any pinholes that may exist, and permanently seal it with an epoxy rivet that will last forever, and be impossible to remove, even by  sandblasting. While diesel will theoretically preserve steel , it wil do nothing to protect steel which is not immersed in diesel, like the condensation soaked top of the tank ,and that which is above the diesel level , when the boat is left unused for any length of time. Another example of the huge gap between theory and reality.I once had an unpainted steel diesel tank. Rusted like hell inside.You need  a good, long fine screen inside, to stop any flaking paint from entering the fuel lines.Waterline Yachts does not paint the inside of diesel tanks, a huge mistake.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have a common bulkhead between the fuel tank and the water tank.   Both tanks are painted with high build epoxy and it has been no problems.   The bulkhead is 1/4 inch steel and fully welded both sides so I can't see it ever  leaking between the two.   It is a horrible job but I would definitely paint the fuel tank again.   The sump extends into the fuel tank via a sump box extending down at the aft end of the keel.    You could really put it anywhere you want.  It only needs to be large enough for a build pump and automatic switch and a large hose for a manual pump.   Mine will hold about 3 gallons.    I have been on boats that had large sumps going to the bottom of a keel and when you drop anything, it is almost impossible to retrieve it.  The dirt and junk that collects can clog pumps.   It is nice to have a sump that can be reached by hand and cleaned with a rag and a sponge.Cheers, Paul| 31328|31310|2014-08-27 15:37:32|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Looks like something you could put on any angle grinder. You could make  a bolt on bracket to hold the post. You could use round file material for the post , sanded smooth, or weld a bit of hard surfacing on it.What do the brushes cost? Maybe a wire brush could be used in the same way. The post would make it effective far longer.| 31329|31310|2014-08-27 15:42:09|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|I tried to leave a message on their website. No Canadians allowed to post comments to them. They ask for your state, no provinces allowed. Then they ask for a US Zip code. No Canadian  postal codes accepted .If you are not a yank, then they dont want any contact with you, only your money.| 31330|31310|2014-08-27 16:19:55|Aaron|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Brushes run around $30 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Home Depot Fraud Sent: Wed, Aug 27, 2014 7:37:32 PM   Looks like something you could put on any angle grinder. You could make  a bolt on bracket to hold the post. You could use round file material for the post , sanded smooth, or weld a bit of hard surfacing on it.What do the brushes cost? Maybe a wire brush could be used in the same way. The post would make it effective far longer. | 31331|31310|2014-08-28 21:08:35|Robert Jones|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Use mine. 560 Jones River Rd., Camden, AL, US, 36726 On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 2:42 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I tried to leave a message on their website. No Canadians allowed to post comments to them. They ask for your state, no provinces allowed. Then they ask for a US Zip code. No Canadian  postal codes accepted .If you are not a yank, then they dont want any contact with you, only your money. #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 -- #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179activity span .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 dd.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 dd.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 dd.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179last p span.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 div#ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 .ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 input, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179 #ygrps-yiv-1933204725yiv2239200179ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1933204725 | 31332|31310|2014-08-29 07:03:24|pha7env|Re: Home Depot Fraud|here is a link to some electric needle guns. I have used the bosch and works well. Bulkier than air, as most electric are in comparison.but will run on 110 http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=electric+needle+gun&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=electric+needle+gun&sc=2-22&sp=-1&sk=| 31333|31310|2014-08-29 16:29:35|Mark Hamill|Re: Home Depot Fraud| Hi Brent: Sorry to hear you are having trouble returning things. What with all the competition out there one would think it would be easy. Might I suggest you go to Homedepot.ca -- the Canadian site for Home Depot. Their return policy is at http://www.homedepot.ca/content/customer-support/return-policy Including a contact phone number. All the best, MarkH| 31334|31310|2014-08-30 19:10:03|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Tried that. There is no way to email them there. They only accept emails from yanks. Canadians dont count, for Home Despot!| 31335|31310|2014-09-01 15:39:03|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|The drill quit cold turkey, trying to drill my first  hole with it. Got about half way thru 3/16th mild steel  plate, with a half inch drill bit. Then it quit cold turkey .| 31336|131|2014-09-01 16:00:02|brentswain38|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|This was one of the best posts made on this site. Wish I could figure out how to  copy and paste it to another site. I don't see "Files" on this page.Anyone know how to find it?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Regardless of what material Jeff likes or dislikes. We need to dig deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to the emotion.... Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Jeff fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your favourite remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty boats with people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are on third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do. By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted, with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home for repairs? With due respect to Jeff, you only have to be in Aukland one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Jeff, this is just part of the game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Jeff?? Even if it is wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people refuse to acknowledge. What i largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy plastic, steel and ferro. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat, and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long term cruising. I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these boats are really thought out well let alone be designed by somebody who has actually cruised. This assumes most who build metal boats want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they wont have the time to cruise. It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do anything cruiser. My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines of many cruisers dreams. I think most people who have practical common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel. Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some el cheapo Beneteau which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly opposite. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am sorry to say Jeff your reasoning is not part of common cruising folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate. SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time and does the job who really cares about those other things. Just like most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the world who can do the kind of boats the Jeff advocates. Since this group is about people interested in building these kind of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals, and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that should tell you something. Will   | 31337|131|2014-09-01 20:30:24|jhess314|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|Brent,Here is the URL for that particular post:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/conversations/messages/146  Not sure why you can't just highlight the text with your mouse cursor Press CTRL+"c" to copy Then press CTRL+"v" to paste wherever you want itJohn---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This was one of the best posts made on this site. Wish I could figure out how to  copy and paste it to another site. I don't see "Files" on this page.Anyone know how to find it?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Regardless of what material Jeff likes or dislikes. We need to dig deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to the emotion.... Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Jeff fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your favourite remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty boats with people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are on third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do. By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted, with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home for repairs? With due respect to Jeff, you only have to be in Aukland one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Jeff, this is just part of the game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Jeff?? Even if it is wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people refuse to acknowledge. What i largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy plastic, steel and ferro. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat, and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long term cruising. I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these boats are really thought out well let alone be designed by somebody who has actually cruised. This assumes most who build metal boats want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they wont have the time to cruise. It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do anything cruiser. My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines of many cruisers dreams. I think most people who have practical common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel. Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some el cheapo Beneteau which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly opposite. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am sorry to say Jeff your reasoning is not part of common cruising folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate. SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time and does the job who really cares about those other things. Just like most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the world who can do the kind of boats the Jeff advocates. Since this group is about people interested in building these kind of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals, and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that should tell you something. Will   | 31338|31310|2014-09-01 21:24:40|jpronk1|Re: Home Depot Fraud|I see that it is just a hammer drill with a needling head. Wonder how hard it would be to make? I need to have a good look at my air needler and see how it works again.| 31339|131|2014-09-02 17:57:55|brentswain38|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|Thanks Brent| 31340|31340|2014-09-02 18:08:43|brentswain38|Overseas airmail postage rate increase.|The cost of overseas airmail postage for my book has just increased to $20. So for Canadian postage it is $20 ,plus $5 for postage, for US it is $20, plus $10 for postage and for overseas airmail postage it is $20 plus $20 for postage.I guess  $40 total is still not a lot for a book containing so much info which is unavailable anywhere else.| 31341|31310|2014-09-02 18:18:32|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Sounds easy to make . I made a pronged spear head by putting the hardened rods inside a pipe, and welding the back ends together, on the opposite end from the points( and impact). That eliminates the tendency to break where they enter the pipe.| 31342|131|2014-09-02 19:31:10|brentswain38|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|Thanks. Got her done. The URL didn't work,  but paste did.| 31343|131|2014-09-04 17:52:33|brentswain38|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|Took it back and got my money back. The salesman said Ryobi is cheap junk not made to last very long.| 31344|131|2014-09-04 23:34:17|j fisher|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|Ryobi is owned by the same company as Rigid and Milwaukee.  Ryobi is their entry level brand for occasional use.  The key features are time to market and cost.  Rigid is one step up and Milwaukee is quality first, price is not an object nor is time to market.  So if you want the best, milwaukee is it.    On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:52 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Took it back and got my money back. The salesman said Ryobi is cheap junk not made to last very long. | 31345|31345|2014-09-05 08:00:16|edward_stoneuk|Lifting Beam|Hi We will be lifting our boat Fly onto transport soon.  Do we need a lifting beam or am I correct in thinking that the hull is strong enough to withstand the squeezing of the slings?Best regards,Ted| 31346|31345|2014-09-05 10:53:58|Matt Malone|Re: Lifting Beam| Hello Ted,The lifting beam you are speaking of is possibly called a spreader bar.   Best practice for boats is to use 3 spreader bars:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Boat_lift_crane_in_Gosport_Marina_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1424169.jpgA licensed rigger will know how to size the spreader bars and locate them under the boat so that there is no instability.   This best practice protects the paint from being marred badly, not just the hull from being collapsed.   Your question of not using a spreader bar depends on a lot of variables.  The triangles formed by the chains / straps from the gunwale up to the point of suspension: if they are tall thin triangles, then the inward forces on the gunwales are reduced.   If they are short wide triangles then the inward load on the gunwales can be more than the weight of the boat !   Play with a piece of string and an open-top tissue box with a couple of eggs in it to understand the effect of the aspect ratio of the suspension triangle.  There is mathematics and physics to do here and that is the reason that proper riggers need a licence.  If your rigger does not know the answer then consider another rigger.   Yes, there is a video of a tow truck unceremoniously dragging a BS26 through a field.   As I recall, it was unpainted, and the field was mud and grass.   Dropping a newly painted BS on reinforced concrete is different.  You might crack someone's concrete, as well as have to do work on the boat afterward.       MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 05:00:08 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Lifting Beam   Hi We will be lifting our boat Fly onto transport soon.  Do we need a lifting beam or am I correct in thinking that the hull is strong enough to withstand the squeezing of the slings?Best regards,Ted | 31347|131|2014-09-05 11:26:16|Neil Ramsey|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|I don't know who suggested it, but I've had great success by opening up the cheaper tools and greasing them.  There is no lubrication when new. On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Ryobi is owned by the same company as Rigid and Milwaukee.  Ryobi is their entry level brand for occasional use.  The key features are time to market and cost.  Rigid is one step up and Milwaukee is quality first, price is not an object nor is time to market.  So if you want the best, milwaukee is it.    On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:52 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Took it back and got my money back. The salesman said Ryobi is cheap junk not made to last very long. | 31348|131|2014-09-05 18:44:03|brentswain38|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|I'm reluctant to open anything up while under warantee. That may void the warantee. I think I wil find a good "proven" used one.| 31349|31345|2014-09-05 18:57:19|brentswain38|Re: Lifting Beam|No problem. There is  many times the strength required to resist such loads. I have always welded lifting eyes in the bulwarks, 20 ft 3 inches back along the bulwark from the point of the bow, roughly the balance point on a 36. A lightly loaded comealong on eihter end can tip the balance, if it is not perfect. Shackles to the sling ends thru these connect it to the crane. Zero chance of bottom paint damage.The boat dragged across the field was a 36, Alex's boat.| 31350|31345|2014-09-05 18:58:34|brentswain38|Re: Lifting Beam|No problem. No spreader bars required. Tried a longer response but it wouldn't post it. May try again later.| 31351|31345|2014-09-05 19:41:33|opuspaul|Re: Lifting Beam|I have lifted the boat quite a few times with a crane and slings.   The lifting eyes would be a lot easier.   I have scupper holes lined with 1/2 inch SS rod that should be in the right spot.   Would they be strong enough if I put a strap through them?  Cheers and thanks, Paul| 31352|31345|2014-09-08 10:12:16|prairiemaidca|Re: Lifting Beam|I have posted a picture of 18,300 pounds of Prairie Maid being lifted with two lifting straps and no spreader bars.  If constructed correctly I doubt it's even possible to cause any damage to the hull.  At one point I removed the stands and had her free standing on her keel and couldn't detect any flex in the hull while using a laser beam. They are very rigid and stiff hulls.  Martin...| 31353|31353|2014-09-10 02:52:22|northcanoe|Surviving a knock-down|Just some gripping news to ponder, a 42 foot 'glass sailboat, the culmination of one man's retirement dream, was recently knocked down by a rogue wave which smashed pretty much everything topsides and rendered the boat a wreck, 414 miles from Hawaii.  In the video, when they were leaving on their trip, you can see the boat has all sorts of flimsy cabin material, some semblance of an enclosed cockpit, and anyone from our forum here, looking at it motoring away, could tell you, "that will be wiped off in the first encounter with a big wave." Sure enough...My point is, people use the word "rogue wave", as if it's something unfair that the sea concocted for them out of spite, when in fact it's a natural occurrence that happens, and will happen again, according to the laws of nature and the nature of frequency. It's not "rogue", it's just something that may happen, eventually! Mathematicians, statistician, and any scientist who studies the nature of waves will nod their heads at this point. Given that so-called "rogue waves" can and do happen, then why do people put to sea and take a chance with their lives this way, and not build a safer boat, one more "bullet-proof" and sealable against the elements? This guy's boat should have stayed tied up at the dock and used as a gin palace.In the case of this boat, not only did they ruin their flimsy hard dodger/enclosure thing, but they damaged a hatch that then allowed ingress of water. The video shows the boat in tatters. They had to abandon the boat, and their dream. The owner could have put his retirement money into a boat say, like we talk about here, and had a strong welded aluminum submarine hatch that would have let them have their knock-down and then carry on.Just sayin'.http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/08/12/pkg-coast-guard-sailboat-hurricane-julio.khnl.htmlAlex| 31354|31353|2014-09-10 05:18:54|Hannu Venermo|Re: Surviving a knock-down| I disagree somewhat. It was a hurricane, with 115 m/hr winds and 30 ft seas. Even commercial steel boats get swamped/destroyed in condistions like that, commonly. And they are very strong, with more reliable systems than normally found on pleasure boats. Good seamanship would probably have saved the day .. rather than the boat material. Good seamanship would have meant you are not there in those condisitons. Waiting, even a month, is preferable. Today, good weather forecasting and cheapish comms means there is no excuse to get caught in a hurricane, much less in a 41 ft boat (that are fast), when you could have gotten out of there. In a 30 footer your slow speed makes it harder. The owner could have put his retirement money into a boat say, like we talk about here, and had a strong welded aluminum submarine hatch that would have let them have their knock-down and then carry on. Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31355|31345|2014-09-10 06:08:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lifting Beam|Many thanks everyone for your replies. Best regards,Ted| 31356|31353|2014-09-10 07:20:29|Matt Malone|Re: Surviving a knock-down| Looking at the boat going out of harbour, and seeing it list at the end it all looked very tall and vulnerable on deck.   It looks like he had a lot of sail up for a hurricane.  Yes, even a good steel boat might run into trouble in the worst weather with poor seamanship.   Yes, a good steel boat with a good hatch might have avoided the flooding problem.  415 miles... is that even 4 days?   Hurricanes can change a lot in 4 days, but 2 days out, there should have been indications of trouble in the weather forecast.   That would have left 2 days to get in / out of the way.    Thank you Alex for posting this.  It is a good example to look at, from the details to the trip planning, to avoid this sort of situation.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 11:18:46 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Surviving a knock-down   I disagree somewhat. It was a hurricane, with 115 m/hr winds and 30 ft seas. Even commercial steel boats get swamped/destroyed in condistions like that, commonly. And they are very strong, with more reliable systems than normally found on pleasure boats. Good seamanship would probably have saved the day .. rather than the boat material. Good seamanship would have meant you are not there in those condisitons. Waiting, even a month, is preferable. Today, good weather forecasting and cheapish comms means there is no excuse to get caught in a hurricane, much less in a 41 ft boat (that are fast), when you could have gotten out of there. In a 30 footer your slow speed makes it harder. The owner could have put his retirement money into a boat say, like we talk about here, and had a strong welded aluminum submarine hatch that would have let them have their knock-down and then carry on. Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31357|31353|2014-09-10 15:39:08|opuspaul|Re: Surviving a knock-down|There would have been plenty of warning of the low because the hurricanes form near Mexico and then come across to Hawaii.  Having said that though, you can still get caught because the storms can change their predicted path.   Just when you think you are in a safe zone, the storms turn on you.  They can move at 20 to 30 knots so there is no way a 41 foot boat can outrun a storm like that.  If the boat is built right, the deck-house could be totally smashed but the main hatch should stay water tight.  The boat looks to me like a typical Alawai Marina Queen.   These are the boats that typically never leave port and have lots of potted plants on deck.   The lines are normally rotted out in the sun. It looks to me that they sails are shredded because they weren't stored correctly.   There is no way the roller furling or the mainsail should be out and shredded like that even if you were knocked down.   Ideally if you know a very bad storm is coming, you remove the roller furling sail and it's windage.   This can be hard or dangerous if you leave it too late.   I have seen people rely on the furling line to hold the sails from un-ravelling.   You should always have several extra turns of the sheet around the sail and make sure it is strong and well tied.    Extra ties over the mainsail would help as well.  I have never heard of a rescue of a boat in the storm when the reporter doesn't use the words "rogue wave".  It seems to be a requirement even if the weather is normal.   How close was the storm really?  115 mph and 30 foot waves is not that unusual in the North Pacific.  This should be survivable but when you are tired, scared, sick, possibly injured and your boat is a mess it is easy to jump ship.  I don't say this trying to be be too critical.  It is just the way it is....Paul#ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-176773018 #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951 .ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-176773018ygrps-yiv-1753396951ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31358|31345|2014-09-10 15:57:41|brentswain38|Re: Lifting Beam|The half inch rod has a tensile strength of 11,775 per side, for a total of 23,550 lbs, The 1 1/4 inch bulwark pipe has a tensile strength of 12,375, per side, for a total of 24,150 lbs, Add the two together and you have roughly 48,300 lbs of total tensile strength , not counting the 31/16 th plate between them .I think that  is sufficient overkill for a 36.| 31359|31353|2014-09-10 16:43:03|Matt Malone|Re: Surviving a knock-down| >This should be survivable but when you are tired, scared, sick, >possibly injured and your boat is a mess it is easy to jump ship.  >I don't say this trying to be be too critical.  It is just the way it is....SOOOO true Paul.   Yah, yah, it is easy to say you are tough, you would not have been one of the Fastnet crews that abandoned a boat that was found floating just fine afterward.   You know that little panic that rises when you anticipate things will imminently go bad.   I have felt it on a ferry crossing the Hudson -- it hit what I think was a salt-fresh interface layer wave and the boat suddenly rolled fast but did not go over.  It scared the crap out of the captain, he stopped the boat dead in the water for a minute before starting up again.   I have felt it on a particularly windy day on a large lake where the waves hit the exact same frequency as the roll of my boat, and also twice when I have broached and wet the boom from an unexpected wind shift going hard down-wind.   I failed to feel it on a ferry crossing in the Irish Sea the captain called the worst in 20 years, and he never would have gone out if the prediction had been for that.   I failed to feel it when I flipped my first boat, after 31 years in boats, including kayaks canoes and lasers: I had never flipped anything before.   I did not feel it when I was climbing on the outside of a building in my youth.  As soon as a few days later I felt it just standing on the ground looking up at where I had been climbing.  Stupid decisions are not limited to youth, they kill lots of middle-aged guys too.  And tired and sick and injured... I have enough experience with that not to underestimate how the evaluation of a situation might be skewed.   Equally though, you do not mention how one might be prone to underestimate danger when one is in a good mood or things have been nominal for so long as to lull one into a false sense.   This can be very bad.   Yah, yah, not going to happen to me right ?   It is something to prepare for also, the human part. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:39:08 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Surviving a knock-down   There would have been plenty of warning of the low because the hurricanes form near Mexico and then come across to Hawaii.  Having said that though, you can still get caught because the storms can change their predicted path.   Just when you think you are in a safe zone, the storms turn on you.  They can move at 20 to 30 knots so there is no way a 41 foot boat can outrun a storm like that.  If the boat is built right, the deck-house could be totally smashed but the main hatch should stay water tight.  The boat looks to me like a typical Alawai Marina Queen.   These are the boats that typically never leave port and have lots of potted plants on deck.   The lines are normally rotted out in the sun. It looks to me that they sails are shredded because they weren't stored correctly.   There is no way the roller furling or the mainsail should be out and shredded like that even if you were knocked down.   Ideally if you know a very bad storm is coming, you remove the roller furling sail and it's windage.   This can be hard or dangerous if you leave it too late.   I have seen people rely on the furling line to hold the sails from un-ravelling.   You should always have several extra turns of the sheet around the sail and make sure it is strong and well tied.    Extra ties over the mainsail would help as well.  I have never heard of a rescue of a boat in the storm when the reporter doesn't use the words "rogue wave".  It seems to be a requirement even if the weather is normal.   How close was the storm really?  115 mph and 30 foot waves is not that unusual in the North Pacific.  This should be survivable but when you are tired, scared, sick, possibly injured and your boat is a mess it is easy to jump ship.  I don't say this trying to be be too critical.  It is just the way it is....Paul | 31360|31353|2014-09-11 17:15:51|brentswain38|Re: Surviving a knock-down|Man what a crock! The suggestion is you should pick a flimsy boat, then assume that taking all precautions will keep you 100% safe, regardless of the flimsiness of your choice of boat.  Picking a flimsy material or design is simply bad seamanship , from the outset.A 41 ft steel sailboat is inherently more seaworthy than most power boats, including commercial  powerboats. In open ocean they are almost indestructible, especially by weather. With proper hatches, they simply can't get swamped. That is a hatch failure, caused by bad design, completely avoidable. Very few plastic boats have hatches anywhere near as seaworthy as the aluminium  ones suggested. 95% have abysmally poor, unseaworthy  hatches. With proper , aluminium  hatches, there is no way the boat could have been swamped thru a hatch.Read Moitessier's books " The Long Way" and "Cape Horn the Logical Route" to see how such knockdowns, taken  routinely, can  be nothing more than a minor inconvenience, in a proper metal boat. Compare his experience in a proper boat, with accounts of the same type of knockdowns, in a stock plastic boat. Storms happen in all  seasons . Unpredictable , out of season storms are becoming far more common. It's abysmally naive and unseamanlike to assume that picking the right weather window to  leave in, will give you a 100% guarantee that such weather will continue for  the rest of  a voyage,  making the trip safe in a flimsy plastic boat with  flimsy hatches.That kind of thinking is dangerously bad seamanship.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I disagree somewhat. It was a hurricane, with 115 m/hr winds and 30 ft seas. Even commercial steel boats get swamped/destroyed in condistions like that, commonly. And they are very strong, with more reliable systems than normally found on pleasure boats. Good seamanship would probably have saved the day .. rather than the boat material. Good seamanship would have meant you are not there in those condisitons. Waiting, even a month, is preferable. Today, good weather forecasting and cheapish comms means there is no excuse to get caught in a hurricane, much less in a 41 ft boat (that are fast), when you could have gotten out of there. In a 30 footer your slow speed makes it harder. The owner could have put his retirement money into a boat say, like we talk about here, and had a strong welded aluminum submarine hatch that would have let them have their knock-down and then carry on. Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31361|31353|2014-09-11 17:24:42|brentswain38|Re: Surviving a knock-down|I see no semblance of a drogue of any kind. I don't see many breaking waves , and no blown spume, as you would see in serious winds. The rig is still in her, and appears useable.Had the boat been properly built and sealable, she looked very capable of sailing home. It looks more like a pannick situation.| 31362|31353|2014-09-11 20:05:25|brentswain38|Re: Surviving a knock-down|I've seen hurricanes form on the spot, halfway between Mexico and Hawaii, and elsewhere. The first time I pulled into Ensenada, I met people there ,trying to get their boats back together, after a December hurricane hit there, well into what is considered the "SAFE" season.| 31363|31363|2014-09-14 02:52:02|aguysailing|West side Vancouver Island|I am heading up west side of Vancouver Island from Sooke to Bamfield for starters.  I am using a chart plotter program which is excellent and a free download called Open CPN 3.2.2 which will displays digital charts (and your gps boat location on a chart; usb plug in antenna needed) once charts are loaded into the program.  However, I noticed that the digital charts I loaded into the program show limited detail for the west side of VI unlike the ones for the east side of the island which are very detailed.  All I get for the west side close in and into the inlets is "blue" shoreline shading which means shallower water but not detailed contours.  Anyone know a source for digital charts for the west side?... thanks | 31364|31353|2014-09-14 14:36:21|aguysailing|Re: Surviving a knock-down|In this case of rescue at sea what happens to the boat.... do they just leave it out there?...| 31365|31353|2014-09-14 15:44:56|Matt Malone|Re: Surviving a knock-down| In all cases I have heard of, they attempt nothing with the boat.  Often it is destroyed when it passes through the screws of the ship, if it has not already been mortally crippled in brushing up against the hull of the freighter.   From time to time you hear of these boats surviving the brush and continuing to float, but, that is by far less typical.   Typically people evacuate when there is at least a little leak.   A little leak, a few days with no one on board, and it is going down.   So the chance of a boat remaining floating more than a day or two after a freighter pickup is low.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 11:36:20 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Surviving a knock-down   In this case of rescue at sea what happens to the boat.... do they just leave it out there?... | 31366|31363|2014-09-14 16:31:42|brentswain38|Re: West side Vancouver Island|I dont know about digital charts ,but Evergreen cruising has a chart atlas for the west coast of Vancouver Island now. It is the same colour of charts as standard marine charts, and would be well worth buying, given the amount of time you plan to spend out there.| 31367|31353|2014-09-14 16:36:09|brentswain38|Re: Surviving a knock-down|I remember anchoring next to a high tech 80 ft boat in Cabo in 88, called Pandemonium.Later I read that she had lost her keel enroute to Hawaii, and was abandoned, to be found still floating, upside down, months later.| 31368|31368|2014-09-14 16:45:07|brentswain38|Turned Back|I just read an interesting article in Ocean Navigator , about a plastic boat giving up a trip to Antarctica, due to problems I will probably  never have. The steering cables were giving her problems, something I wont have , my tiller being a piece of sch 40, 1 1/2 inch pipe, welded to the rudder head. She had problems with leaky opening ports , something I wont have, with half inch plexi , with a 2 inch overlap on the cabin sides. Ditto other  problems she had.Seems the more you spend, the more complex things get, and the more problems you invite.| 31369|31310|2014-09-14 16:53:26|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|A guy in a second hand store told me of  a trick that works for jeans . Button them up and try it around your neck. What fits your neck, buttoned up, fits your waist.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Heck just buying mens jeans is corrupt. They may say 34 waist but that is just make a fat boy size 36 feel better. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: Alan Boucher alsthe1@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home Depot Fraud Sent: Wed, Aug 20, 2014 1:55:19 AM  Read the fine print!  And be generally aware how things are made and sold.  Drill chucks commonly come in 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", at least in this country.  I don't think you'll find anyone selling anything else.  What they meant was the drill was capable of drilling a 5/8" hole, if of course you had a drill with a 1/2" shank end and a 5/8" bit end.  You'll find drill sets in the 1/2" - 1" range that have 1/2" shanks.  There are of course other standards for the snap in impact drills, On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Just bought a Ryobi hammer drill at Home depot.  The sign said 5/8th drill, the box said 5/8th on it ,as did the instruction manual,. It had only a half inch chuck.  When I complained they offered me a hand full of nails. Other wise ,tough shit!Check the size of things before you buy, especially at Home Depot. I doubt this is the first complaint about this they have had. Yet the bullshit, false advertising continues-- Al Boucher| 31370|31363|2014-09-14 21:24:28|aguysailing|Re: West side Vancouver Island|Found source ... thanks to Boilerflue...'\Evergreen a very good idea.. will get it...... thanks all| 31371|31368|2014-09-15 02:39:45|Hannu Venermo|Re: Turned Back|Agreed. On 14/09/2014 22:45, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Seems the more you spend, the more complex things get, and the more > problems you invite. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31372|31310|2014-09-16 19:32:34|kingsknight4life|Re: Home Depot Fraud|BrentIf I'm understanding this right I can't see how it would be accurate. A big man would have a 20" neck but only a child would have a 20" waist??| 31373|31310|2014-09-16 22:23:30|bcboomer1948|Re: Home Depot Fraud|I'm still trying to picture putting a buttoned up pair of jeans around your neck.| 31374|31310|2014-09-17 16:47:13|brentswain38|Re: Home Depot Fraud|Button them up ,and what fits your neck is half your waste circumfrence. Try it.It works for me.| 31375|30737|2014-09-17 17:03:15|brentswain38|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|JonIs  your boat still for sale? How much are you asking?| 31376|30737|2014-09-17 18:00:40|brentswain38|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|What is your contact info ( email and phone number)A freind may  be interested.| 31377|31377|2014-09-18 16:13:36|P-O Gustafsson|SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|There is a boat in New Zealand I'm looking at. It's built by SP Metalcraft in Vancouver in 1987. Model called Amazon 41, from what I can find on the net there was 37 and 44 ft models made. Not many made during a few years. Any of you gentlemen with knowledge about those boats? -- P-O| 31378|31377|2014-09-18 17:49:01|opuspaul|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|They sail well but like all steel boats you need to look at the paint job....I seem to recall the early models had corrosion issues.  I also believe the plate is thinner than Brent's designs.  | 31379|31377|2014-09-19 16:12:51|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver| Back NextPrevious 31377SP Metalcraft in VancouverExpand MessagesP-O GustafssonSep 18 1:13 PMThere is a boat in New Zealand I'm looking at. It's built by SP Metalcraft in Vancouver in 1987. Model called Amazon 41, from what I can find on the net there was 37 and 44 ft models made. Not many made during a few years. Any of you gentlemen with knowledge about those boats? -- P-O Reply Delete Next post in topic >>Show all 2 messages in this topic Subject : Poll You can insert a poll question in your message. Click the Poll button to try it! I once met a Kiwi who's freind had bought one new.The contract specified a 2 inch weld every 6 inches on longitudinals . What he found when he scraped the foam out was a half inch tack every three feet on longitudinals, along with a lot more underwelding. He tried to sue SP Metalcraft  ,but the owner kept dodging him. When he finally caught up with the owner ( Dieter Pollock ,I  believe) and handed  him the summons, SP Metalcraft immediately went bankrupt. Another friend, whom I built a 31 for, knew him well, and said he went to visit him when they had a boat  "Ready for foaming next day." There was only a thin coat of primer inside, and the cabin side cabin top seam  was only welded outside , with most of the weld ground flush, leaving only  metal the thickness of  a beer can to hold it together.Ditto a lot of the welding.Another friend ordered one, bare shell, specifying "no paint." The builder insisted on priming her. When my friend had her sandblasted, he found out why they insisted on primer. There was a whole lot of filler behind the primer, and the steelwork was nowhere near as fair as he had hoped it would be. The primer was to disguise the filler, until she had been paid for, and delivery taken. They do sail well,but I would check under the foam for welding and corrosion.| 31380|31377|2014-09-19 16:14:03|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver| Back NextPrevious 31377SP Metalcraft in VancouverExpand MessagesP-O GustafssonSep 18 1:13 PMThere is a boat in New Zealand I'm looking at. It's built by SP Metalcraft in Vancouver in 1987. Model called Amazon 41, from what I can find on the net there was 37 and 44 ft models made. Not many made during a few years. Any of you gentlemen with knowledge about those boats? -- P-O Reply Delete Next post in topic >>Show all 2 messages in this topic Subject : Poll You can insert a poll question in your message. Click the Poll button to try it! I once met a Kiwi who's freind had bought one new.The contract specified a 2 inch weld every 6 inches on longitudinals . What he found when he scraped the foam out was a half inch tack every three feet on longitudinals, along with a lot more underwelding. He tried to sue SP Metalcraft  ,but the owner kept dodging him. When he finally caught up with the owner ( Dieter Pollock ,I  believe) and handed  him the summons, SP Metalcraft immediately went bankrupt. Another friend, whom I built a 31 for, knew him well, and said he went to visit him when they had a boat  "Ready for foaming next day." There was only a thin coat of primer inside, and the cabin side cabin top seam  was only welded outside , with most of the weld ground flush, leaving only  metal the thickness of  a beer can to hold it together.Ditto a lot of the welding.Another friend ordered one, bare shell, specifying "no paint." The builder insisted on priming her. When my friend had her sandblasted, he found out why they insisted on primer. There was a whole lot of filler behind the primer, and the steelwork was nowhere near as fair as he had hoped it would be. The primer was to disguise the filler, until she had been paid for, and delivery taken. They do sail well,but I would check under the foam for welding and corrosion.| 31381|31377|2014-09-19 16:16:43|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver| Back NextPrevious I once met a Kiwi who's freind had bought one new.The contract specified a 2 inch weld every 6 inches on longitudinals . What he found when he scraped the foam out was a half inch tack every three feet on longitudinals, along with a lot more underwelding. He tried to sue SP Metalcraft  ,but the owner kept dodging him. When he finally caught up with the owner ( Dieter Pollock ,I  believe) and handed  him the summons, SP Metalcraft immediately went bankrupt. Another friend, whom I built a 31 for, knew him well, and said he went to visit him when they had a boat  "Ready for foaming next day." There was only a thin coat of primer inside, and the cabin side cabin top seam  was only welded outside , with most of the weld ground flush, leaving only  metal the thickness of  a beer can to hold it together.Ditto a lot of the welding.Another friend ordered one, bare shell, specifying "no paint." The builder insisted on priming her. When my friend had her sandblasted, he found out why they insisted on primer. There was a whole lot of filler behind the primer, and the steelwork was nowhere near as fair as he had hoped it would be. The primer was to disguise the filler, until she had been paid for, and delivery taken. They do sail well,but I would check under the foam for welding and corrosion.| 31382|31377|2014-09-19 16:19:34|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|They used all 1/8th inch plate, which is none too forgiving when corrosion problems begin.It also is much harder  to keep fair, and thus they have a lot of filler on them.,| 31383|31377|2014-09-19 21:35:31|opuspaul|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :They used all 1/8th inch plate, which is none too forgiving when corrosion problems begin.It also is much harder  to keep fair, and thus they have a lot of filler on them.,That confirms what I thought.  I remember years ago a couple who had one in BC.   They dragged anchor and bounced their stern against a mooring bouy.  I was surprised that it ripped a hole in the weld along the edge of the transom.  I can't see that happening on one of your boats.I have heard of steel boats using  3mm or 1/8 inch plate that are 45 feet long.  This would make me kind of nervous if you grounded.   There is too much momentum behind a large boat pounding.I know of a French guy who had a stainless steel boat made from very thin plate.  The theory was that because it was SS, the  plating could be thinner.   The boat went on the reef in New Caledonia and the whole hull crumpled and rolled up until there the interior was completely destroyed.  I don't think he was able to recover a thing.| 31384|31377|2014-09-20 16:52:41|P-O Gustafsson|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|> Posted by: brentswain38@... brentswain38 Date: Fri Sep 19, > 2014 1:19 pm ((PDT)) > > They used all 1/8th inch plate, which is none too forgiving when > corrosion problems begin.It also is much harder to keep fair, and > thus they have a lot of filler on them., > Thanks Brent, I'll be careful with that boat! -- P-O| 31385|31377|2014-09-21 15:52:13|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|I hear the French are now building standard ,mild steel hulls with stainless from the decks up. That works . Expensive , but it reduces maintenance a bit . Definitely not worth it for anyone on a budget .I still wouldn't go any less than 12 gauge for the decks, as they are structurally, very  important.| 31386|31377|2014-09-21 18:06:48|opuspaul|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I hear the French are now building standard ,mild steel hulls with stainless from the decks up. That works . Expensive , but it reduces maintenance a bit . Definitely not worth it for anyone on a budget .I still wouldn't go any less than 12 gauge for the decks, as they are structurally, very  important.I wonder if they really save any weight with the thinner plate.   The amount of bog they put on to fair it can really add up.I have never seen a SS deck.   I wonder what grade of SS it is.  I would think it would still get a rust bloom in the tropics if it wasn't the right grade.    I have had 304 fittings on deck rust, corrode, and develop cracks.   I like the idea of steel hull with alloy decks.  I would make them thick enough plate that they would remain fair with the welding and then only apply paint in areas where you need non skid.  It would look a little work boat/industrial but I have come to like the look and it would be very low maintenance. | 31387|31377|2014-09-22 00:23:25|wild_explorer|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|I have 11ga deck, which is OK for 40 footer, but 10ga would be better (from structural and welding point of view). Thinner sheet needs more reinforcement which makes weight saving minimal. Probably, 3/16 deck would be even better if size of the boat allows (weight/ballast ratio).If someone wants shiny deck and superstructure, galvanized steel looks like cheaper alternative to SS. You need 316L SS for marine applications (which is expensive).P.S. I was looking and comparing small offshore fishing alum boats (about 20 ft with outboard engines) and found that its built similar to origami construction (bulwark from alum profile, longitudinal frames, some transverse frames on the bottom and 1-2 bulkheads, some reinforcements on hull's seams (angles). Boat is made with minimal maintenance in mind and designed for fast construction. Price? About $30-40K ;))| 31388|31377|2014-09-22 00:30:05|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|Galvanized steel?  Hope you're not welding that without a breathing apparatus.  You'll get poisoned in no time.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 6:23 AM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have 11ga deck, which is OK for 40 footer, but 10ga would be better (from structural and welding point of view). Thinner sheet needs more reinforcement which makes weight saving minimal. Probably, 3/16 deck would be even better if size of the boat allows (weight/ballast ratio).If someone wants shiny deck and superstructure, galvanized steel looks like cheaper alternative to SS. You need 316L SS for marine applications (which is expensive).P.S. I was looking and comparing small offshore fishing alum boats (about 20 ft with outboard engines) and found that its built similar to origami construction (bulwark from alum profile, longitudinal frames, some transverse frames on the bottom and 1-2 bulkheads, some reinforcements on hull's seams (angles). Boat is made with minimal maintenance in mind and designed for fast construction. Price? About $30-40K ;)) | 31389|31377|2014-09-22 04:04:00|wild_explorer|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|Just need to follow safety rules for welding galvanized steel ;) As long as you grind areas/joints to be weld to bare steel (for at least 1/2" wide), weld with low current electrode, and use fumes respirator - you should be fine. It is need to worry more if you cut galvanized steel with torch or plasma (when zinc melts/evaporates).| 31390|31377|2014-09-23 08:39:21|jhess314|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|I think "11ga" means 11 gauge (.120" thick), not galvanized coated.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Galvanized steel?  Hope you're not welding that without a breathing apparatus.  You'll get poisoned in no time.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 6:23 AM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:  I have 11ga deck, which is OK for 40 footer, but 10ga would be better (from structural and welding point of view). Thinner sheet needs more reinforcement which makes weight saving minimal. Probably, 3/16 deck would be even better if size of the boat allows (weight/ballast ratio).If someone wants shiny deck and superstructure, galvanized steel looks like cheaper alternative to SS. You need 316L SS for marine applications (which is expensive).P.S. I was looking and comparing small offshore fishing alum boats (about 20 ft with outboard engines) and found that its built similar to origami construction (bulwark from alum profile, longitudinal frames, some transverse frames on the bottom and 1-2 bulkheads, some reinforcements on hull's seams (angles). Boat is made with minimal maintenance in mind and designed for fast construction. Price? About $30-40K ;))| 31391|31391|2014-09-23 11:29:25|theboilerflue|1.5 Billion|Searching for an ancient Haida Gwaii fishing weir Searching for an ancient Haida Gwaii fishing weir Fishing for a lost world. Researchers are looking for the world's oldest fishing weir off the coast of Haida Gwaii. We talk to the University of Victoria profes... View on soundcloud.com Preview by Yahoo  This is a link to an interview about some ROV research off Haida Gwaii. Doug and Kay, maybe I misheard this but I think they said the buget for the ROV was 1.5 BILLION DOlLARS - in case you've ever worried about spending too much money on your little project.| 31392|31377|2014-09-23 18:00:54|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|I don't think I would do the transition from steel to aluminium at the hull-deck joint, give how wet that area gets, and the structural loads on it, taking the entire twisting loads on the hull. As cabin sides don't weigh all that much,especially with the ports cut out, they may as well be steel. Going aluminium for the cabin top would save the maximum amount of weight.I did that on a boat recently . It worked out well.Any bare aluminium on deck gets as hot as a frying pan in the sun, and would have to be painted to keep it bearable.| 31393|31377|2014-09-23 18:07:42|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|I used galvanized plate for my decks cockpit and cabin. It has to be painted anyway, as the zinc is constantly eroding away.  I washed mine with TSP , then vinegar, then water ,before epoxying it, for  a good bond .It worked well, for 30 years now. I found that wearing a mask with 24 feet of 1 1/4 inc plastic sump drain hose has you breathing air from 24 feet away.It is easier to breath thru the  hose than thru any filtre I have used.| 31394|31377|2014-09-23 23:43:58|wild_explorer|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|I could not find 1/8" plate (except "floor" plate). 3/16" is minimal thickness for the plate. Steel sheets come in gauges (Ga).11 gauge = 0.1196"10 gauge = 0.1345"11 Ga galvanized (A653) = 0.1233"10 Ga (A653) = 0.1382"---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I think "11ga" means 11 gauge (.120" thick), not galvanized coated.| 31395|31377|2014-09-24 09:24:32|jhess314|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|Brent, does the mask come with a one-way valve, so you only inhale through the hose, but exhale directly out of the mask?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I found that wearing a mask with 24 feet of 1 1/4 inc plastic sump drain hose has you breathing air from 24 feet away.It is easier to breath thru the  hose than thru any filtre I have used.| 31396|31377|2014-09-24 16:44:20|brentswain38|Re: SP Metalcraft in Vancouver|Yes, all the ones I have seen have a check valve in the mask.| 31397|31397|2014-10-02 15:55:24|brentswain38|Fixed focus binocs|I just bought a pair of those fixed focus binoculars. What a huge improvement over having to fiddle with the focus, especially at night when you don't know if you are in focus or not , and have nothing to focus against . The first pair I tried, Bushnells ,  were permanently out of focus , so I went to another brand, Plastimo, and tried them before buying them ($70). Best always try them before buying. While their focus is not perfect, it is not always possible to focus them perfectly anyway , especially at night. Nice to simply pick them up and use them, without having to focus them . They are better focus than I have been able to get with the manual focus ones most of the time, anyway.| 31398|31397|2014-10-02 16:37:47|opuspaul|Re: Fixed focus binocs|I wear glasses and have never had any luck with fixed focus binoculars.  With variable focus binoculars I can use them either with or without my glasses.  I found some rubber armored military binoculars at a pawn shop years ago.   They turned out to be good quality and at $25 were a great deal.| 31399|31397|2014-10-03 15:01:07|brentswain38|Re: Fixed focus binocs|They probably wouldn't work for me, if I hadn't had laser surgery 7 years ago, the best move I ever made. I highly recommend laser surgery for bad eyesight, to any cruiser. Sure, I have to use reading glasses, about 5% of the time, instead of regular glasses 90% of the awake  time, but they cost $2 . Over time, the money saved on glasses pays for laser surgery many times over.No more fogged up, rain soaked glasses . No more prescription diving goggles. No more lost distance eyesight due to lost glasses.| 31400|31397|2014-10-03 17:50:46|opuspaul|Re: Fixed focus binocs|I am 52 and my eyes are changing a lot every year as my body falls apart :).   I may get laser surgery as soon as things stabilize a bit.  I agree, wearing glasses can be a real issue when salt spray is flying.Prescription eyeware is a total rip-off.   A set of progressive lenses with cheap metal frames can cost me close to $1000 now in NZ.  I bought progressive lenses with titanium frames in SE Asia for less than $150 a few years ago.  I used to be able to get glass lenses that lasted for years.  Glass lenses are no longer available and I am forced to use plastic lenses which scratch easily even with the expensive coatings and end up being a mess within a year.....I am going to go online and buy glasses on the net.  I did it once before and it was disappointing but the price difference is so large, I am going to try again.| 31401|31397|2014-10-03 22:01:30|Barney Treadway|Re: Fixed focus binocs|$110 for my last pair of prescription polarized sunglasses from 39dollarglasses.com. Polarized on the water is almost a requirement. Quality is Ok, so buy 2 lol Barney Treadway On Oct 3, 2014 3:50 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am 52 and my eyes are changing a lot every year as my body falls apart :).   I may get laser surgery as soon as things stabilize a bit.  I agree, wearing glasses can be a real issue when salt spray is flying.Prescription eyeware is a total rip-off.   A set of progressive lenses with cheap metal frames can cost me close to $1000 now in NZ.  I bought progressive lenses with titanium frames in SE Asia for less than $150 a few years ago.  I used to be able to get glass lenses that lasted for years.  Glass lenses are no longer available and I am forced to use plastic lenses which scratch easily even with the expensive coatings and end up being a mess within a year.....I am going to go online and buy glasses on the net.  I did it once before and it was disappointing but the price difference is so large, I am going to try again. | 31402|31397|2014-10-04 18:06:49|brentswain38|Re: Fixed focus binocs|I used to get used frames in the thrift store and have my own prescriptions put in them. I got some pretty expensive frames for under a dollar that way.| 31403|31403|2014-10-05 21:18:04|jaybeecherbay|WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|Hello all,  I am putting out a wanted ad to see if there are any unfinished brent boats out there looking for a ready, willing and able boat builder to finish.  I just missed out on a 36 footer today that was parked on a lawn for 20 years and never completed.  I am sure that there are a few more out there, please message me, or call if you have or know where one is.  Ideally,  I want a 31' bilge keeler, but open to a 36'.  If not I will build one myself, but thought it would be good to find a bare hull to get a head start.thanks again, Jay250-483-7304| 31404|31403|2014-10-06 05:53:25|Hannu Venermo|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|If you are fluent in Spanish, and very self reliant, and can navigate mexican paperwork, there is a cheap one, in sailing condition (perhaps), in Mexico, somewhere near Isla Mujeres, iirc. Note that you will not be able to buy cheap stuff locally, as its out of the way. So if anything is needed to sail away, it will be either expensive or very expensive, if you need to import it. Mexican importing is difficult (so its dhl or customs agent. Both are expensive). All boating gear is expensive outside the US, and industrial stuff requires you know where to go and how to get it. Was about 31 ft and 24.000$ iirc. There was a link on this list maybe some months back. If its near-sailing condition, its probably cheaper than the materials to make one. We have a new baby, and my wife was not thrilled with the idea of me going there for a month or two.. And the boat is too small for me, making sailing it back uneconomical. Otherwise I would maybe have gone to get it. I did a long post on this, why its difficult and risky to do this in another country, unless you have spent years travelling all over the place and are used to dealing with latin countries. On 06/10/2014 03:18, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Hello all, I am putting out a wanted ad to see if there are any > unfinished brent boats out there looking for a ready, willing and able > boat builder to finish. I just missed out on a 36 footer today that > was parked on a lawn for 20 years and never completed. I am sure that > there are a few more out there, please message me, or call if you have > or know where one is. Ideally, I want a 31' bilge keeler, but open > to a 36'. If not I will build one myself, but thought it would be > good to find a bare hull to get a head start. > > > thanks again, > > Jay > > 250-483-7304 > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31405|31403|2014-10-06 15:53:13|brentswain38|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|If you are talking about a bare, tacked together  shell it doesn't take all that long to pull one together. Its the detailing that takes the time.Cant think of any offhand.| 31406|31403|2014-10-07 12:16:38|jaybeecherbay|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|Yes I am looking for a bare shell.  I bet there are a few lying around this coast, and I think it would be worth considering if the right one is out there.  But I am still look forward to pulling one together myself. :)| 31407|31403|2014-10-07 12:22:32|theboilerflue|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|I have heard of another BS31 that was built by someone in Washington, who has since died - several years ago and their family is now in posesion of it and want nothing to do with it and apparently it's sitting somewhere near Shelton WA. And that's all I know - a bunch of second hand info, no idea how acurate or up to date it is. Has any one had any interaction with the sellers of that BS31 down in mexico? That boat should have canadian papers?  unless it was changed to a US boat when it was sold the first or second time. If it were me buying it I would just register a new homebuilt boat in canada before I left and paint the new numbers on the thing before I left to check into another country - one that doesn't care about the exit stamp. How would they know? once you have some record of clearing into another country every subsiquent country wouldn't have any idea that the boat was in fact older than the papers say.| 31408|31403|2014-10-08 15:53:51|brentswain38|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|French countries don't care about an exit stamp.| 31409|31403|2014-10-09 20:52:18|Mark Hamill|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.| The online magazine "latitude 38" has a series of ongoing articles about the changing boat and visa situation in Mexico--which has had a serious screwup in the last months. www.latitude38.com Might be worth phoning the head honcho as well if you are interested in buying a boat down there etc. | 31410|31403|2014-10-15 15:43:23|brentswain38|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|I haven't been able to find the article you mention. What month? What title or heading?| 31411|31403|2014-10-18 19:33:35|don bourgeois|Movie, All is lost| I was watching the  All is Lost movie last night and couldn't help thinking that this is a great advertisement for a BS boat!   I think it's a great movie if you want to convince someone why they should have a steel boat.   Don B       • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (8) . | 31412|31403|2014-10-20 14:40:19|brentswain38|Re: Movie, All is lost|36 footers built of 3/16th plate are immune from such problems. Having collided at hull speed with everything from steel barges to rocks, with minimal damage,  has proven that. Having a steel hull under you gives a huge amount of peace of mind when sailing at hull  speed on a moonless, foggy night. I wonder how many lives could have been saved had their owners not succumbed to the flood of disinformation about steel hulls, by plastic boat salesmen. Th Sleavins are only one tragic example.| 31413|31413|2014-10-21 13:20:43|aaron riis|grease|Just wondering what type of grease is recomended for the stern tube.Aaron| 31414|31413|2014-10-24 00:55:56|wild_explorer|Re: grease|Why do you want to use grease in stern tube? It will create a lot of load on the engine if you fill up all length of stern tube with grease...For small/narrow area silicone grease is most universal for many types of seals.| 31415|31403|2014-10-25 21:36:39|brentswain38|Re: Movie, All is lost|Yet Bob  "Little Boys "Perry still tries to tell us that plastic is stronger than steel. That is like saying that plastic nails, bolts , anchors, chisels,  etc are stronger than steel ones. And he charges $150 an hour for his 'Expert advice"Ya, sure Bob!| 31416|31413|2014-10-25 21:45:25|brentswain38|Re: grease|I and my clients have been using grease filed stern tubes for decades. No problem. Grease gun hoses have a standard 1/8th inch pipe thread on them. That lets you tap your stern tube or stuffing box and thread your grease gun hose on  permanently, eliminating the zirc. It also lets you connect several together.It doesn't work on  super soft Yanmar  mounts ( which should be avoided anyway , as they tend to break and leave your engine rolling in the bilge)With super soft mounts, the stuffing box heats up too much.  Any kind of grease works well. It eliminates the chance of a flood of water coming in. If it starts to drip too much, a few strokes on a permanently mounted grease gun, solves the problem| 31417|21698|2014-10-28 16:20:18|dejongralph|Re: Brent: Forward Shroud Chainplate location|>>  I connect those intermediate upper shrouds to the spreader ends with the turnbuckles on their inboard ends on the mast tangs, and the outboard ends clamped to the upper shrouds . These stop the tendency for the mast to go into an S shape under heavy load. Chay Blythe mentions this problem in his book on his windward circumnavigation in British Steel. Brent, how should the end of the spreader look like when there are two shrouds there?  Thanks, Ralph| 31418|31418|2014-10-28 20:35:49|inter4905|exhaust pipe tape|Hi Brent,You mentioned many times to install special tape on the exhaust pipe of a dry exhaust system, but where do you get it?Thanks, Martin.| 31419|31418|2014-10-28 21:16:50|James Pronk|Re: exhaust pipe tape|I think you can get it at Napa auto parts stores not sure what it is called. James From: mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe tape Sent: Wed, Oct 29, 2014 12:35:49 AM   Hi Brent,You mentioned many times to install special tape on the exhaust pipe of a dry exhaust system, but where do you get it?Thanks, Martin. | 31420|31418|2014-10-29 03:03:36|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: exhaust pipe tape|Heat shielding products for pipes and manifolds (example)http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/exhaust-heat-shield-insulationwhy do they mount this tin-foil.thingy as an outside finish?the shielding effect is pretty much improved with a non-radiating metallic outer surface.for temperatures up to about 150 degrees Celsius a second, vented pipe with polished/uncoated outer surface to catch the heat radiation of the original pipe might be enough of a measure to cool down a dry exhaust leading through a locker even without heavily wrapping the original one in tape.this works exactly like the tin shielding between an oven and a wooden bulkhead or hullside: as long as the shielding does not actually make contact with the bulkhead, two or three centimeters slightly vented distance between the polished, uncoated backside surface of the tin shield and the wooden parts are enough to shield the radiation own to lukewarm.cheers G_BAm 29.10.2014 um 01:35 schrieb mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]:   Hi Brent,You mentioned many times to install special tape on the exhaust pipe of a dry exhaust system, but where do you get it? | 31421|31421|2014-10-29 09:29:53|smallboatvoyaguer|Skidding Plates| Moving large plates, 8 x 32 feet. Wanted to run this past those who have done it.Tomorrow my large plates will arrive via semi truck. the boatyard where I will be building is crammed tight this time of year with hauled out yachts, and so the truck won't be able to back into the selected building spot. The  driver already checked it out in person. Too tight a turn. On arrival, my plan is to lever up the end(s) of the plate while on the low-boy trailer (which is much lower than a traditional flatbed semi trailer), burn a hole through the bottom plate or both plates using the highest  setting on my stick welder (propane torch tip is on order), then drag the plates off onto the ground using the backhoe and chain.  The ground mentioned above is a gravel road. Once the plates are on the ground I'm guessing they can be pushed and pulled around using the backhoe and bucket, or comealongs. Does anyone think that the skidding on gravel will leave any big gouges in the plate? That is my main concern.  Once these are off loaded and in place I will be literally stepping into a car, then into an airplane, then onto BC soil. Myself and Sooz will be loitering near Comox and Port Alberni until the 8th.-Marlin| 31422|31421|2014-10-29 09:43:20|Doug Jackson|Re: Skidding Plates|I routinely use a winch to drag 1/4" thick plates over gravel.  The only thing it does is it makes the plate look like someone scribbled on it with a soap stone.  If you have to drag on piece of steel over another, and you don't have pipes to use as rollers, then toss a hand full of sand on the bottom sheet.  The sand will act like ball bearings.See 7:47 ROV Hull Components - Part 5        ROV Hull Components - Part 5View on www.youtube.comPreview by Yahoo    DougSVSeeker.com From: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:29 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Skidding Plates    Moving large plates, 8 x 32 feet. Wanted to run this past those who have done it.Tomorrow my large plates will arrive via semi truck. the boatyard where I will be building is crammed tight this time of year with hauled out yachts, and so the truck won't be able to back into the selected building spot. The  driver already checked it out in person. Too tight a turn. On arrival, my plan is to lever up the end(s) of the plate while on the low-boy trailer (which is much lower than a traditional flatbed semi trailer), burn a hole through the bottom plate or both plates using the highest  setting on my stick welder (propane torch tip is on order), then drag the plates off onto the ground using the backhoe and chain.  The ground mentioned above is a gravel road. Once the plates are on the ground I'm guessing they can be pushed and pulled around using the backhoe and bucket, or comealongs. Does anyone think that the skidding on gravel will leave any big gouges in the plate? That is my main concern.  Once these are off loaded and in place I will be literally stepping into a car, then into an airplane, then onto BC soil. Myself and Sooz will be loitering near Comox and Port Alberni until the 8th.-Marlin | 31423|31421|2014-10-29 09:57:45|bargemaster24|Skidding Plates|Hi     In the passed i have avoided damage  by using old lyres   laid flat and dragging timber  sleepers  into area  were no lifting gear could get in,cannot see why it would not work with  plates.   Having worked as a millwright were the shop carried sheet steel of all sizes stopping it moving caused more concern than the actual  moving .it Regards  Barge . -----Original Message----- From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 13:29 Subject: [origamiboats] Skidding Plates #ygrps-yiv-1599529812 #ygrps-yiv-1599529812AOLMsgPart_1_5cc949c9-c5be-4f40-b497-534e4479d015 td{color:black;} #ygrps-yiv-1599529812 #ygrps-yiv-1599529812AOLMsgPart_1_5cc949c9-c5be-4f40-b497-534e4479d015 td{color:black;}  Moving large plates, 8 x 32 feet. Wanted to run this past those who have done it. Tomorrow my large plates will arrive via semi truck. the boatyard where I will be building is crammed tight this time of year with hauled out yachts, and so the truck won't be able to back into the selected building spot. The  driver already checked it out in person. Too tight a turn.  On arrival, my plan is to lever up the end(s) of the plate while on the low-boy trailer (which is much lower than a traditional flatbed semi trailer), burn a hole through the bottom plate or both plates using the highest  setting on my stick welder (propane torch tip is on order), then drag the plates off onto the ground using the backhoe and chain.  The ground mentioned above is a gravel road. Once the plates are on the ground I'm guessing they can be pushed and pulled around using the backhoe and bucket, or comealongs. Does anyon e think that the skidding on gravel will leave any big gouges in the plate? That is my main concern.    Once these are off loaded and in place I will be literally stepping into a car, then into an airplane, then onto BC soil. Myself and Sooz will be loitering near Comox and Port Alberni until the 8th. -Marlin | 31424|31421|2014-10-30 11:10:25|jhess314|Re: Skidding Plates|I've got a few old guitars, plus the odd zither or two. I wonder if they would work as well as a lyre?;)John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi    In the passed i have avoided damage  by using old lyres   laid flat and dragging timber  sleepers  into area  were no lifting gear could get in,cannot see why it would not work with  plates.| 31425|31421|2014-10-30 11:16:54|bargemaster24|Re: Skidding Plates|Whoops was using my tripe writer keyboard lol should have read tyre. Now were did i put my email postage stamps. Barge -----Original Message----- From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:10 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Skidding Plates #ygrps-yiv-1431962830 #ygrps-yiv-1431962830AOLMsgPart_1_53dadf43-d7a3-4e26-9089-7d6fc10ee192 td{color:black;} #ygrps-yiv-1431962830 #ygrps-yiv-1431962830AOLMsgPart_1_53dadf43-d7a3-4e26-9089-7d6fc10ee192 td{color:black;} I've got a few old guitars, plus the odd zither or two. I wonder if they would work as well as a lyre? ;) John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi     In the passed i have avoided damage  by using old lyres   laid flat and dragging timber  sleepers  into area  were no lifting gear could get in,cannot see why it would not work with  plates. | 31426|31421|2014-10-30 13:23:05|theboilerflue|Re: Skidding Plates|dragging along the ground with a come a long works just fine, it grinds the rocks. You need holes in the upper hull corners later for pulling the hul together.| 31427|31421|2014-10-30 13:35:04|Matt Malone|Re: Skidding Plates| Brent has suggested wheel-abraided primed steel.   Would you drag primed steel around ?I thought lyres was just British for politician.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:23:05 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skidding Plates   dragging along the ground with a come a long works just fine, it grinds the rocks. You need holes in the upper hull corners later for pulling the hul together. | 31428|31421|2014-10-30 16:29:40|James Pronk|Re: Skidding Plates|I would not my nice new steel plates dragged over a politician! You will never get the smell of bull shit off of it! From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skidding Plates Sent: Thu, Oct 30, 2014 5:35:02 PM   Brent has suggested wheel-abraided primed steel.   Would you drag primed steel around ?I thought lyres was just British for politician.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:23:05 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skidding Plates   dragging along the ground with a come a long works just fine, it grinds the rocks. You need holes in the upper hull corners later for pulling the hul together. | 31429|31421|2014-10-30 18:47:53|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Skidding Plates|The steel I'm using is not primed.| 31430|31421|2014-10-30 23:46:12|wild_explorer|Re: Skidding Plates|In this case your plates should have mill scale on it. Mill scale is even hard to take off with a grinder.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The steel I'm using is not primed.| 31431|31403|2014-10-31 04:47:35|jeagle999|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|Any luck in finding an unfinished boat if you happen to find two hulls let me know. I would be interested in one also.John | 31432|31403|2014-10-31 09:56:06|Gord Schnell|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|I have a Brent Swain 40  for sale. "gschnell@..." On 2014-10-31, at 2:47 AM, jeagle999@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Any luck in finding an unfinished boat if you happen to find two hulls let me know. I would be interested in one also.John | 31433|31403|2014-10-31 10:41:10|Aaron|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|GordI am suprised you still have Amazing Grace I would concider take her if these guy would come up to Alaska for my 36 What do you need for yours and what needs to be done before splashing? Aaron  From: "Gord Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.   I have a Brent Swain 40  for sale. "gschnell@..." On 2014-10-31, at 2:47 AM, jeagle999@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Any luck in finding an unfinished boat if you happen to find two hulls let me know. I would be interested in one also.John #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 -- #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433activity span .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 dd.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 dd.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 dd.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433last p span.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 div#ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 .ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 input, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433 #ygrps-yiv-1822086989yiv0726961433ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1822086989 | 31434|31403|2014-10-31 10:54:12|Gord Schnell|Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.|Aaron. Please send me your email address and we can talk about all these things "off the OrigamiBoats site"gschnell@ shaw.ca"Sent from my iPhone On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   GordI am suprised you still have Amazing Grace I would concider take her if these guy would come up to Alaska for my 36 What do you need for yours and what needs to be done before splashing? Aaron  From: "Gord Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: WANTED: Unfinished BRENT Boat.   I have a Brent Swain 40  for sale. "gschnell@..."On 2014-10-31, at 2:47 AM, jeagle999@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Any luck in finding an unfinished boat if you happen to find two hulls let me know. I would be interested in one also.John | 31435|31140|2014-10-31 14:42:14|clove3clove|Re: Travel tips for Vancouver Island|Hopping an early plane tomorrow morning and should be in Vancouver tomorrow around noon!Keep a sharp eye for a couple-o scallywags from the midwest.| 31436|31421|2014-10-31 15:13:19|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Skidding Plates|I would have liked primed plate, but the cost was tremendous.| 31437|31421|2014-10-31 19:44:19|James Pronk|Re: Skidding Plates|I priced out the plate that I needed out on the west coast last year and found that the price for wheel abraded and primed plate was quite reasonable From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skidding Plates Sent: Fri, Oct 31, 2014 7:13:19 PM   I would have liked primed plate, but the cost was tremendous. | 31438|31421|2014-10-31 21:22:35|brentswain38|Re: Skidding Plates|I usually just tie the end to a tree, then drive the truck out from under it. Then I move it around with comealongs . Zero chance of damaging it that way.| 31439|31418|2014-10-31 21:25:51|brentswain38|Re: exhaust pipe tape|I wrap the dry exhaust with fibreglass house insulation. Then I wrap that with 3 inch wide muffler tape, available from marine supplies or muffler shops.I believe Harbour Chandlers in Nanaimo has it.| 31440|21698|2014-10-31 21:37:48|brentswain38|Re: Brent: Forward Shroud Chainplate location|Just two shrouds side by side, held in possibly with a piece of 1 inch by  1/16th inch stainless flat bar over them, and a cable clamp under the ,to stop it from sliding down when you step on it.For chafe protection, I split  a piece of 1 1/2 inch black poly pipe and heated it with a torch until it was soft , then, wearing welding gloves, molded it around the spreader end and shrouds, holding it till it cooled.White ones break down in UV.| 31441|31403|2014-10-31 21:50:44|brentswain38|Re: Movie, All is lost|I just read in the July issue of 48 north, about another plastic boat , hitting something hard off the Oregon coast and having to be abandoned. No lives lost , but almost.Wouldn't have happened in a steel boat Another  couple  went missing on their way back to BC, without a trace, in a wooden boat.Makes you wonder how many people, including children, the plastic boat promoters have killed off,  with their mercenary, self serving,  disinformation campaigns, and attacks on metal boats .None has the huevos to directly  attack metal boats in their plastic toys.| 31442|31418|2014-10-31 22:05:26|mountain man|Re: exhaust pipe tape| do you wrap it tight or loose?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 18:25:50 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: exhaust pipe tape   I wrap the dry exhaust with fibreglass house insulation. Then I wrap that with 3 inch wide muffler tape, available from marine supplies or muffler shops.I believe Harbour Chandlers in Nanaimo has it. | 31443|21698|2014-11-02 11:00:14|dejongralph|Re: Brent: Forward Shroud Chainplate location|Thanks, I've got the picture| 31444|31418|2014-11-03 08:43:37|mountain man|Re: exhaust pipe tape| I called uap/napa in Montreal, they have a fiberglass tape 2 3/4 in. x 42in. long   for $5.00,I ordered a roll to see what it looklikeMartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:16:49 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe tape   I think you can get it at Napa auto parts stores not sure what it is called. James From: mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe tape Sent: Wed, Oct 29, 2014 12:35:49 AM   Hi Brent,You mentioned many times to install special tape on the exhaust pipe of a dry exhaust system, but where do you get it?Thanks, Martin. | 31445|31445|2014-11-03 09:04:37|inter4905|depth sounder tranducer|Brent,Do you have any advice for the depth sounder tranducer? do you need a thru hull absolutely or would a transom one do the job?Martin| 31446|31445|2014-11-03 09:08:52|mountain man|FW: [origamiboats] depth sounder tranducer| the thru hull tranducer does not come with the depth sounder(the cheap ones), it has to be bought separately for another $150.00To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 06:04:37 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] depth sounder tranducer   Brent,Do you have any advice for the depth sounder tranducer? do you need a thru hull absolutely or would a transom one do the job?Martin | 31447|31445|2014-11-03 12:48:42|opuspaul|Re: FW: [origamiboats] depth sounder tranducer|The transom mount transducers get too much turbulence to work well.  Put a through hull transducer on...I just bought one of the plastic ones of the right frequency.  I mounted it inside a 1 1/2 inch stand pipe welded to the hull and stuck the transducer out just enough to get clear of the hull and then faired it with epoxy.  The wire for the transducer goes through a pipe cap.  If it ever gets knocked off with a log or something, the pipe is capped so it is not a problem.  It works well and doesn't cause a lot of drag like a lot of the big metal ones.| 31448|31418|2014-11-03 16:36:07|mountain man|Re: exhaust pipe tape| from the location of the engine in my boat the exhaust pipe will travel toward the stern of the boat so there should not be any bulkead to pass trhu except the engine cover itself,the fonction of the wrapping around the pipe will be to avoid eccessive heat inside the boat and to burn yourself when working in that area...MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 08:03:33 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe tape   Heat shielding products for pipes and manifolds (example)http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/exhaust-heat-shield-insulationwhy do they mount this tin-foil.thingy as an outside finish?the shielding effect is pretty much improved with a non-radiating metallic outer surface.for temperatures up to about 150 degrees Celsius a second, vented pipe with polished/uncoated outer surface to catch the heat radiation of the original pipe might be enough of a measure to cool down a dry exhaust leading through a locker even without heavily wrapping the original one in tape.this works exactly like the tin shielding between an oven and a wooden bulkhead or hullside: as long as the shielding does not actually make contact with the bulkhead, two or three centimeters slightly vented distance between the polished, uncoated backside surface of the tin shield and the wooden parts are enough to shield the radiation own to lukewarm.cheers G_BAm 29.10.2014 um 01:35 schrieb mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]:   Hi Brent,You mentioned many times to install special tape on the exhaust pipe of a dry exhaust system, but where do you get it? | 31449|31449|2014-11-03 20:10:50|silascrosby|Another reason for an outboard rudder with steel weldments|Here is an account of a Malo 45, an expensive 'well-built' boat that lost it's rudder, and in the process the whole boat. Not Good.The hull was severely damaged when the rudder stock started flailing around in the lazarette. Hard to imagine an on-the-spot repair for that situation in rough Indian Ocean seas.Perhaps the pintle/gudgeon on the partial skeg failed, allowing the stock and its bearings to take the whole load, which it could not handle.Sail-World.com - Sailing crew's battle to save yacht lost in the Indian Ocean Sail-World.com - Sailing crew's battle to save yacht... The first terse report received had all the hallmarks of an impersonal official account - three people rescued from yacht in the Indian Ocean, - But it is the sailm... View on www.sail-world.com Preview by Yahoo  | 31450|31450|2014-11-04 16:23:26|edward_stoneuk|36' Fly launched|We launched our boat yesterday and motored upriver to moor it so that we can fit the sails and test the bits that need testing.  It did not sink or capsize and we did not hit anything, fall overboard or be seasick.  So all in all it  was a very good day.  I have put some photos in the 36' Fly album.  Fly weighed 9 tonne (about 20,000lb) on the crane. Regards,Ted| 31451|31450|2014-11-04 16:29:09|opuspaul|Re: 36' Fly launched|Congratulations.   She looks great.  I really like how you have done the keels.   Paul| 31452|31421|2014-11-04 16:45:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: Skidding Plates|Hi Marlin,I used a boughten plate clamp which is pushed onto the plate edge and locks into position. it has a large eye which can be used for a hook of come-along or chain to a back hoe. There is a lever to unlock it.  You may be able to borrow one from a steel fabricator.  Some care has to be taken when pulling them off a wagon lest a corner of the plate digs in and gets bent.  Making the wagon move off fairly fast with the sheets anchored is probably best.  It has to be fairly fast lest the sheets fall back and takes the tail lights off. Instead of making holes in the plate, when the plate clamp was unavailable or unsuitable I welded an eye to the steel plate.  To ease moving the two hull halves into place I used old scaffold poles as kind of rollers or skid rails.  My build site had some old bricks and bits of concrete in it and I did find some gouges in it after the hull was finished.Regards,Ted| 31453|31450|2014-11-04 16:57:56|Aaron|Re: 36' Fly launched|Congradulations   From: "tedstone@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2014 12:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 36' Fly launched   We launched our boat yesterday and motored upriver to moor it so that we can fit the sails and test the bits that need testing.  It did not sink or capsize and we did not hit anything, fall overboard or be seasick.  So all in all it  was a very good day.  I have put some photos in the 36' Fly album.  Fly weighed 9 tonne (about 20,000lb) on the crane. Regards,Ted | 31454|31450|2014-11-04 21:35:39|James Pronk|Re: 36' Fly launched|Congratulations! Your boat looks great! From: tedstone@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] 36' Fly launched Sent: Tue, Nov 4, 2014 9:23:26 PM   We launched our boat yesterday and motored upriver to moor it so that we can fit the sails and test the bits that need testing.  It did not sink or capsize and we did not hit anything, fall overboard or be seasick.  So all in all it  was a very good day.  I have put some photos in the 36' Fly album.  Fly weighed 9 tonne (about 20,000lb) on the crane. Regards,Ted | 31455|31450|2014-11-04 21:43:44|jpronk1|Re: 36' Fly launched|She's junk rigged! What made you decide on going with a junk rig?James| 31456|31450|2014-11-05 10:31:07|Matt Malone|Re: 36' Fly launched| Yes, the keels look really interesting.  Every choice has advantages and disadvantages.  The larger and wider footing area seems better suited to beaching in a soft muddy tidal area than the other twin keel designs I have seen with a smaller and narrower footing area.   There are a lot of places with huge expanses of mud-flats.  I recall having boots sucked off trying to pull them out of that sort of mud.  So you might experience more suction in getting off than keels with a smaller foot area.   Everything has advantages and disadvantages though.  In this case, when getting off, the boat might remain sucked down and stay rock-steady and then suddenly break suction and pop free.  The period of bumping on the bottom might be reduced.   I hate bumping on the bottom.  It is just so inelegant.  Also the bulge in the bottom gave the opportunity for more mass lower, so it would be like longer keels with respect to restoring moment without the increased draft.   Just imagine all the places one could get to and stay in a little easier with this boat.  With flats that big and wide on the bottom of the keels it would be that much easier for an informal crew to roll it up the beach with improvised gear to get it above high water for haul-out.   Imagine how many more inexpensive places would be that much easier to work on the boat.           Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 13:29:08 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 36' Fly launched   Congratulations.   She looks great.  I really like how you have done the keels.   Paul | 31457|31450|2014-11-05 17:35:23|edward_stoneuk|Re: 36' Fly launched|When I was thinking of building a steel boat and browsed the web looking for ideas I noticed that several of the American yacht designers offered junk rig designs, and some such as Tom Colvin and Tom MacNaughton rated them highly.  So we joined the Junk Rig Association and went on many rallies and hired a junk rigged boat for a week.   We were taken with it.  It is an  easy rig to handle.We fitted the lead filled bulbs to the bottom of the keels to increase the moment.  From memory, Brent had mentioned that it would be worth trying gas bottle torpedoes on the bottom of the keels to increase stability.  3/16" (4.76mm) steel plate is not available in the UK.  The nearest is the metric sizes 4mm or 5mm. and Brent advised that for the 36'  it would be better to use 5mm plate.  This increased the weight of the boat as did my choice of twin junk rigged masts so I decided to use the lead filled bulbs.  The design was based on various similar bulbs on twin keelers that I had photographed on the hard or seen on the web or in magazines.  Regards,Ted| 31458|31418|2014-11-06 20:56:03|brentswain38|Re: exhaust pipe tape|I wrap it snugly, then cove it with cheap silicone goop.| 31459|31445|2014-11-06 20:59:35|brentswain38|Re: depth sounder tranducer|Friends have had no problem with the transom mount ones, as long  as it sticks slightly below the transom line.Some have mounted iut on the side of the rudder. near the top.| 31460|31449|2014-11-06 21:14:03|brentswain38|Re: Another reason for an outboard rudder with steel weldments|Great article! There is absolutely no harm in doubling the size of rudder fitings. It is about as much extra weight in the stern as puting an extra case of beer there. Of  course on production boats, where the cost is multiplied  by many boats, skimping is the key to staying in business. Zero chance of  this happening on one of my boats.. An outboard rudder also drasticaly improves the simplicity and toughness of self steering , and inside steering.| 31461|31450|2014-11-06 21:16:21|brentswain38|Re: 36' Fly launched|Congratulations! Well done!| 31462|31445|2014-11-06 21:16:21|opuspaul|Re: depth sounder tranducer|If all you want is depth that is OK but you get a lot of reflection off the rudder and skeg and will only be really seeing to one side of the boat.   The cheapest fish finders will now do quite nice grey scale profiles of the bottom.  I find this useful for seeing if the bottom is rock or sand, etc.  I have taken a transom mount transducer and VERY carefully ground it down with a sanding disc on a grinder until it was smaller.   You need to be very careful to expose the round disc that is encapsulated inside without damaging the wires.  I would start doing the bottom first until you start seeing the disc inside.  Once you have  transducer small enough, you can then re-encapsulate it in epoxy and glue it to a round block that will remount and fair in to a stand pipe in the hull.  If the transom mount transducer has other functions like temperature you will probably lose it since the temp part will likely be destroyed.| 31463|31463|2014-11-06 21:26:26|brentswain38|Electric comealong|I was just looking thru a Cablellas catalogue and found a "Warn"  electric winch which could be used as a comealong. It has a 1,000 lb pull, and at $300 it wouldn't be justified for the building of one boat, but for building several, it would definitely speed things up a lot.  It comes in a 24 volt rechargeable and 120 volt, which would be more practical for a boat building project.| 31464|31450|2014-11-06 21:33:49|brentswain38|Re: 36' Fly launched|I have often thought about flareing the bottoms of mine for more bite going to windward, as an afterthought.It takes 1150 lbs to put the 36 an inch lower in the water, so there is zero chance of suction in mud being even noticeable.A freind here built the botoms of his twin keels level with the waterline. Makes it hard to clean the bottoms of the keels.Mine are 90 degrees to the sides , easy to clean, as on a rocky beach ;only the inside edges touch.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Yes, the keels look really interesting.  Every choice has advantages and disadvantages.  The larger and wider footing area seems better suited to beaching in a soft muddy tidal area than the other twin keel designs I have seen with a smaller and narrower footing area.   There are a lot of places with huge expanses of mud-flats.  I recall having boots sucked off trying to pull them out of that sort of mud.  So you might experience more suction in getting off than keels with a smaller foot area.   Everything has advantages and disadvantages though.  In this case, when getting off, the boat might remain sucked down and stay rock-steady and then suddenly break suction and pop free.  The period of bumping on the bottom might be reduced.   I hate bumping on the bottom.  It is just so inelegant.  Also the bulge in the bottom gave the opportunity for more mass lower, so it would be like longer keels with respect to restoring moment without the increased draft.   Just imagine all the places one could get to and stay in a little easier with this boat.  With flats that big and wide on the bottom of the keels it would be that much easier for an informal crew to roll it up the beach with improvised gear to get it above high water for haul-out.   Imagine how many more inexpensive places would be that much easier to work on the boat.           Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 13:29:08 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 36' Fly launched  Congratulations.   She looks great.  I really like how you have done the keels.   Paul#ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-104771649 #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336 .ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-104771649ygrps-yiv-1192619336ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31465|31450|2014-11-06 21:37:09|brentswain38|Re: 36' Fly launched|This is the first junk rigged 36. Lots of people have ben asking about junk rigging her.Let us know how the  rig balances out| 31466|31449|2014-11-06 21:40:53|opuspaul|Re: Another reason for an outboard rudder with steel weldments|I know of a 35 foot catamaran that went through 8 rudders.   It actually carried 4 spares for a sale from NZ to Fiji and back and ended up using them all.  The pintles were 12mm SS and the designer couldn't figure out why they were breaking.  He said it had to do with balance and kept shifting them back and forth without beefing them up.  He finally went to inboard rudders on a large cassette and finally solved the problem but it took years of trial and error and many thousands of dollars.   What a mental midget!| 31467|31445|2014-11-07 17:44:18|Mark Hamill|Re: depth sounder tranducer| I have two fishfinders as depth sounders so far and they only seemed to last acouple of years. To buy a replacement transducer is about the same as the entire unit. I will probably buy another one though. Its fun to watch the fish but may drive you nuts when you try and catch the supposed hordes on the screen and nothing bites. I may try mounting on the aft end of the rudder. MarkH| 31468|31445|2014-11-07 18:28:16|opuspaul|Re: depth sounder tranducer|The transducer or the wires and connectors are what normally fails.  The displays on the cheap ones are normally glued together.  They will normally keep working as long as the water stays out.  Dropping them may put a hairline crack in the case and let water or moisture in which can then cause displays to go wonky.  If you keep getting moisture forming under the glass, this is probably what has happened.   Consider it "life limited".   I normally put  "Goop" in a bead with a syringe around all the seams on all of my electronics.  It looks ugly but adds some more protection.My first fish finder lasted well over 15 years before the keypad finally gave out.  It was a Lowrance FishID.    I bought a cheap Eagle Fisheasy which is basically the same thing for less than $150 a few years ago.   They are probably cheaper now.    The grey scale display is much nicer on the new unit.  If anyone is buying one,  I wouldn't buy a color unit unless you are a keen fisherman.   It is unnecessary and they can be hard to see from the helm in bright sunlight. I would also try to find the most powerful unit I could get for the money that was 200 khz.   There are more transducers available for a 200 khz unit and you may find one from a surplus or used shop.  I found an old through-hull airmar transducer for mine for $50.  I just cut and spliced the wires to the connector, making sure the shield was retained.  If you buy the ready made transducers with the right connectors, you need to get your money out.| 31469|31450|2014-11-08 05:00:08|edward_stoneuk|Re: 36' Fly launched|Hi Brent,Many thanks for your help and advice during the build.I will post information on how she sails and handles.  That will be a little while yet, as we have a house roof to fix.The local harbour has a drying grid, so cleaning underneath the keels should be straightforward.  The bases are not completely horizontal, although that is more by accident than design.The paint system is Zinga with a hull top coat of polyurethane tar-free micaceous iron oxide.| 31470|31450|2014-11-08 07:11:26|Alex Bar|Re: 36' Fly launched|You haven't put on the antifouling, have you? It seems all the hull have the same paint...Nice boat looking.Alex2014-11-08 11:00 GMT+01:00 tedstone@... [origamiboats] :   Hi Brent,Many thanks for your help and advice during the build.I will post information on how she sails and handles.  That will be a little while yet, as we have a house roof to fix.The local harbour has a drying grid, so cleaning underneath the keels should be straightforward.  The bases are not completely horizontal, although that is more by accident than design.The paint system is Zinga with a hull top coat of polyurethane tar-free micaceous iron oxide. | 31471|31450|2014-11-08 13:47:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: 36' Fly launched|No, I haven't put on any antifouling yet Alex.  I wanted to see where the water line was first.  I was also thinking of using ultrasonic antifouling, but it is a bit pricey and would need  a wind and or solar power supply to keep it going.  Regards,Ted| 31472|31472|2014-11-09 08:31:03|jpronk1|Hot water on demand|This summer I met a guy with propane hot water on demand in the cockpit of his 26' boat. He had it mounted in his propane locker vented overboard and used filtered lake water for showers. The system was something like this http://www.eccotemp.com/eccotemp-l5-portable-tankless-water-heater/ It might be something to make the boat more appealing early and late in the season? James| 31473|31472|2014-11-09 09:03:11|James Pronk|Re: Hot water on demand|$118.99 on Amazon for the propane heater. $56.30 for a 12 volt pump. $6.03 for a filter. James| 31474|31472|2014-11-09 11:53:08|Aaron|Re: Hot water on demand|JamesThis is the one style I have looked at in the past  http://ecostoredepot.com/tankless-hot-water-heater-rv-camper-portable-propane-gas-2-gpm-marey/Aaron  From: "jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2014 4:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hot water on demand   This summer I met a guy with propane hot water on demand in the cockpit of his 26' boat. He had it mounted in his propane locker vented overboard and used filtered lake water for showers. The system was something like this http://www.eccotemp.com/eccotemp-l5-portable-tankless-water-heater/ It might be something to make the boat more appealing early and late in the season? James | 31475|31472|2014-11-09 17:02:10|opuspaul|Re: Hot water on demand|They portable units are just standard on-demand heaters with hose fittings and a handle put on them.   You could do the same and take a standard unit and mount it on a board if you can find it cheap or used.   The on-demand heaters will corrode quickly if exposed to salt water.  The expensive ones for boats are made with better materials like SS housings but the guts of them are still made of brass or aluminum fittings.   No matter which type you buy, make sure you keep the salt off them or they won't last.  I have made one that clamps to my rail near the head.   I lead the hoses through the porthole to the shower in the head.  I can reach through the porthole to adjust the controls if needed.   I would have preferred to put it below but there was no room and then you also have more propane lines running below.    I remove it when I am sailing but it is nice to have at anchor. Paul| 31476|31449|2014-11-10 18:00:46|brentswain38|Re: Another reason for an outboard rudder with steel weldments|Its amazing how often people replace something  which was broken, and obviously not strong enough,  with something identical, refusing to believe that the calculations could be wrong ( in the face of reality, something  they have little contact with.)| 31477|31477|2014-11-10 18:17:31|brentswain38|The Paypal Scam| A guy tried to  send me money by Paypal. I found it impossible to get the money or get connected to them from this end. They said if I don't get connected within 30 days, they get to  keep the money.WHAT A BUNCH OF SCAM ARTISTS!!!DONT TRY SEND MONEY BY PAYPAL!!IT SIMPLY DOESN"T WORK!!| 31478|31477|2014-11-10 18:29:01|Alan Boucher|Re: The Paypal Scam|I don't know what your problem was,  but I've passed thousands through Paypal.  It's expensive, but convenient. On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 6:17 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:    A guy tried to  send me money by Paypal. I found it impossible to get the money or get connected to them from this end. They said if I don't get connected within 30 days, they get to  keep the money.WHAT A BUNCH OF SCAM ARTISTS!!!DONT TRY SEND MONEY BY PAYPAL!!IT SIMPLY DOESN"T WORK!! -- Al Boucher | 31479|31477|2014-11-11 05:11:20|Hannu Venermo|Re: The Paypal Scam| Brent .. Paypal works fine, and is very easy and convenient. But.. some scammers have tried to use Paypal, sometimes succesfully, with stories of "extra money" to be returned, used to pay movers/freight haul etc. If you use paypal to pay for a service or product, as per guidelines, it works fine. Similar scams have used false checks, western union, bank transfers, etc. We see at least one scammer a wekk over here in spain, in our other business. They never reappear, after we tell all our potential clients we obey the money laundering laws and regs. etc. The problem is/was likely not with paypal. Best, h- -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31480|31480|2014-11-18 17:11:42|smallboatvoyaguer|7018 Electrodes| So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods. My uncle works pipeline sites and grabs the boxes of them that are thrown out at the end of each day, then he brings them to me. They open new boxes in the morning, then throw them out at the end of the day, then open a new box in the morning, ad infinitum, until the apocalypse. I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals. | 31481|31421|2014-11-18 17:30:05|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Skidding Plates|There has been a lot of snow here, almost a foot over the last 2 weeks. The rocks weren't a problem at all, just slid them across the snow. I love snow.| 31482|31480|2014-11-18 20:45:37|James Pronk|Re: 7018 Electrodes|7018 electrodes are a low hydrogen electrode, meaning low water content. They are meant to be kept in an oven to be dry or they absorb moisture and could cause cold cracking in your welds. That said , growing up on the farm we used 7018 all the time because we often bought open boxes at auction very cheep, $0.25 a box. Most often we used 6011 then did a cover pass with 7018 to make it look pretty. James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] 7018 Electrodes Sent: Tue, Nov 18, 2014 10:11:42 PM    So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods. My uncle works pipeline sites and grabs the boxes of them that are thrown out at the end of each day, then he brings them to me. They open new boxes in the morning, then throw them out at the end of the day, then open a new box in the morning, ad infinitum, until the apocalypse. I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals.  | 31483|31480|2014-11-18 20:50:42|mountain man|Re: 7018 Electrodes| James,are 7024 electrodes also low hydrogen?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:45:36 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 7018 Electrodes   7018 electrodes are a low hydrogen electrode, meaning low water content. They are meant to be kept in an oven to be dry or they absorb moisture and could cause cold cracking in your welds. That said , growing up on the farm we used 7018 all the time because we often bought open boxes at auction very cheep, $0.25 a box. Most often we used 6011 then did a cover pass with 7018 to make it look pretty. James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] 7018 Electrodes Sent: Tue, Nov 18, 2014 10:11:42 PM    So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods. My uncle works pipeline sites and grabs the boxes of them that are thrown out at the end of each day, then he brings them to me. They open new boxes in the morning, then throw them out at the end of the day, then open a new box in the morning, ad infinitum, until the apocalypse. I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals.  | 31484|31480|2014-11-18 22:10:39|James Pronk|Re: 7018 Electrodes|No, it is the last two numbers in combination that tell you the welding position and the make-up of the coating on the electrodes. 1 is all position, 2 is flat or flat horizontal and a 3, which you don't see very often, is for down handed welding. If the last number is a 6, 7 or 8 it is a low hydrogen electrode. I'm a little rusty at this stuff but a 0 & 1 as the last digit means it is a cellulose based coating, 2&3 are clay based, 4 has a high iron content. Boy, I need to check my notes, 2 years ago I was teaching this stuff and now I can't remember half of it! A 7024 electrode has a max strength of 70000 psi tensile strength, is for welding on the flat or flat horizontal and the 4 means high iron content, AC/DC and I'm not sure what else. From: mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] 7018 Electrodes Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:50:39 AM   James,are 7024 electrodes also low hydrogen?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:45:36 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 7018 Electrodes   7018 electrodes are a low hydrogen electrode, meaning low water content. They are meant to be kept in an oven to be dry or they absorb moisture and could cause cold cracking in your welds. That said , growing up on the farm we used 7018 all the time because we often bought open boxes at auction very cheep, $0.25 a box. Most often we used 6011 then did a cover pass with 7018 to make it look pretty. James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] 7018 Electrodes Sent: Tue, Nov 18, 2014 10:11:42 PM    So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods. My uncle works pipeline sites and grabs the boxes of them that are thrown out at the end of each day, then he brings them to me. They open new boxes in the morning, then throw them out at the end of the day, then open a new box in the morning, ad infinitum, until the apocalypse. I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals.  | 31485|31480|2014-11-18 22:31:11|jhess314|meaning of welding electrode numbers| The American Welding Society (AWS) numbering system can tell a welder quite a bit about a specific stick electrode including what application it works best in and how it should be used to maximize performance. The prefix "E" designates an arc welding electrode. The first two digits of a 4-digit number and the first three digits of 5-digit number indicate minimum tensile strength. For example, E6010 is a 60,000 psi tensile strength electrode while E10018 designates a 100,000 psi tensile strength electrode. E 60 1 10 Electrode Tensile Strength Position Type of Coating and Current The next to last digit indicates position. The "1" designates an all position electrode, "2" is for flat and horizontal positions only; while "4" indicates an electrode that can be used for flat, horizontal, vertical down and overhead. The last 2 digits taken together indicate the type of coating and the correct polarity or current to use. See chart below:   Digit Type of Coating Welding Current 0 High cellulose sodium DC+ 1 High cellulose potassium AC, DC+ or DC- 2 High titania sodium AC, DC- 3 High titania potassium AC, DC+ 4 Iron powder, titania AC, DC+ or DC- 5 Low hydrogen sodium DC+ 6 Low hydrogen potassium AC, DC+ 7 High iron oxide, iron powder AC, DC+ or DC- 8 Low hydrogen potassium, iron powder AC, DC+ or DC-   As a welder, there are certain electrodes that you will most likely see and use time and time again as you go about your daily operations. A DC machine produces a smoother arc. DC rated electrodes will only run on a DC welding machine. Electrodes which are rated for AC welding are more forgiving and can also be used with a DC machine. Here are some of the most common electrodes and how they are typically used: E6010DC only and designed for putting the root bead on the inside of a piece of pipe, this is the most penetrating arc of all. It is tops to dig through rust, oil, paint or dirt. It is an all-position electrode that beginning welders usually find extremely difficult, but is loved by pipeline welders worldwide. E6011This electrode is used for all-position AC welding or for welding on rusty, dirty, less-than-new metal. It has a deep, penetrating arc and is often the first choice for repair or maintenance work when DC is unavailable. E6013This all-position, AC electrode is used for welding clean, new sheet metal. Its soft arc has minimal spatter, moderate penetration and an easy-to-clean slag.  E7018A low-hydrogen, usually DC, all-position electrode used when quality is an issue or for hard-to-weld metals. It has the capability of producing more uniform weld metal, which has better impact properties at temperatures below zero. E7024Typically used to make a large weld downhand with AC in plate that is at least ¼" thick, but more commonly used for plate that is ½" and up. . Other Electrodes
Although not nearly as common, an electrode may have additional numbers after it such as E8018-B2H4R. In this case, the "B2" indicates chemical composition of the weld metal deposit. The "H4" is the diffusible hydrogen designator, which indicates the maximum diffusible hydrogen level obtained with the product. And "R" stands for the moisture resistant designator to indicate the electrode's ability to meet specific low moisture pickup limits under controlled humidification tests. | 31486|31480|2014-11-19 09:26:48|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: 7018 Electrodes|Won't be using the 7018 rods then.| 31487|31480|2014-11-19 09:37:24|Matt Malone|Re: 7018 Electrodes| Musicas,7018 rods are great for a lot of things.  If you have an infinite supply, then just buy a little oven, they are only about $150.   I do use a new box on stuff were full strength and dependability is needed, but I do not own an oven, and use open boxes on everything else I am going to be looking at.  I use 7018 to create seals too. Like James said, they are really good for a second pass to make things look pretty.   I am not very skilled really, but with 7018 I can make a weld that looks so good that I do not bother grinding it.   Brent has made it clear 70-strength rods are not needed to put the boat together, and, there are potential cracking issues with 7018 if you use them wrong, so, I would follow Brent's recommendations below the water line for sure, all the major seams, but there is tons of other stuff to weld that you are going to be looking at a lot, and it is either a tremendous amount of grinding, or 7018 and passable skill.  I would not pass up free.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 06:26:47 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 7018 Electrodes   Won't be using the 7018 rods then. | 31488|31480|2014-11-19 10:46:03|garyhlucas|Re: meaning of welding electrode numbers| This is good accurate info.  One thing to understand.  On mild steel, 60,000 psi tensile you can not actually get a stronger weld with a 70,000 psi rod and actually can get cracking in high stress situations because the difference in tensile strength creates a stress riser in the fusion zone.  Had this problem when I was a kid building mini-bikes.  On tube would frequently break right beyond the weld.  It was because I was welding with 7014.  At 12 I didn’t know any better.   Gary H. Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] meaning of welding electrode numbers     The American Welding Society (AWS) numbering system can tell a welder quite a bit about a specific stick electrode including what application it works best in and how it should be used to maximize performance.   The prefix "E" designates an arc welding electrode. The first two digits of a 4-digit number and the first three digits of 5-digit number indicate minimum tensile strength. For example, E6010 is a 60,000 psi tensile strength electrode while E10018 designates a 100,000 psi tensile strength electrode. E 60 1 10 Electrode Tensile Strength Position Type of Coating and Current The next to last digit indicates position. The "1" designates an all position electrode, "2" is for flat and horizontal positions only; while "4" indicates an electrode that can be used for flat, horizontal, vertical down and overhead. The last 2 digits taken together indicate the type of coating and the correct polarity or current to use. See chart below:   Digit Type of Coating Welding Current 0 High cellulose sodium DC+ 1 High cellulose potassium AC, DC+ or DC- 2 High titania sodium AC, DC- 3 High titania potassium AC, DC+ 4 Iron powder, titania AC, DC+ or DC- 5 Low hydrogen sodium DC+ 6 Low hydrogen potassium AC, DC+ 7 High iron oxide, iron powder AC, DC+ or DC- 8 Low hydrogen potassium, iron powder AC, DC+ or DC-   As a welder, there are certain electrodes that you will most likely see and use time and time again as you go about your daily operations. A DC machine produces a smoother arc. DC rated electrodes will only run on a DC welding machine. Electrodes which are rated for AC welding are more forgiving and can also be used with a DC machine. Here are some of the most common electrodes and how they are typically used: E6010DC only and designed for putting the root bead on the inside of a piece of pipe, this is the most penetrating arc of all. It is tops to dig through rust, oil, paint or dirt. It is an all-position electrode that beginning welders usually find extremely difficult, but is loved by pipeline welders worldwide.   E6011This electrode is used for all-position AC welding or for welding on rusty, dirty, less-than-new metal. It has a deep, penetrating arc and is often the first choice for repair or maintenance work when DC is unavailable.   E6013This all-position, AC electrode is used for welding clean, new sheet metal. Its soft arc has minimal spatter, moderate penetration and an easy-to-clean slag.   E7018A low-hydrogen, usually DC, all-position electrode used when quality is an issue or for hard-to-weld metals. It has the capability of producing more uniform weld metal, which has better impact properties at temperatures below zero.   E7024Typically used to make a large weld downhand with AC in plate that is at least ¼" thick, but more commonly used for plate that is ½" and up. . Other Electrodes
Although not nearly as common, an electrode may have additional numbers after it such as E8018-B2H4R. In this case, the "B2" indicates chemical composition of the weld metal deposit. The "H4" is the diffusible hydrogen designator, which indicates the maximum diffusible hydrogen level obtained with the product. And "R" stands for the moisture resistant designator to indicate the electrode's ability to meet specific low moisture pickup limits under controlled humidification tests. | 31489|31480|2014-11-19 10:46:45|Mark|Re: 7018 Electrodes|I'm a cheap old fart.  I use a halogen flood light in a tin box to drive off moisture from rods. Just plan ahead to have your rods dry for the days work. P.S. I have also used the same setup to heat bearings and gears to slide on shafts.  People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 8:37 AM, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Musicas,7018 rods are great for a lot of things.  If you have an infinite supply, then just buy a little oven, they are only about $150.   I do use a new box on stuff were full strength and dependability is needed, but I do not own an oven, and use open boxes on everything else I am going to be looking at.  I use 7018 to create seals too. Like James said, they are really good for a second pass to make things look pretty.   I am not very skilled really, but with 7018 I can make a weld that looks so good that I do not bother grinding it.   Brent has made it clear 70-strength rods are not needed to put the boat together, and, there are potential cracking issues with 7018 if you use them wrong, so, I would follow Brent's recommendations below the water line for sure, all the major seams, but there is tons of other stuff to weld that you are going to be looking at a lot, and it is either a tremendous amount of grinding, or 7018 and passable skill.  I would not pass up free.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 06:26:47 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 7018 Electrodes   Won't be using the 7018 rods then. #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 -- #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688activity span .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 dd.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 dd.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 dd.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688last p span.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 div#ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 .ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 input, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688 #ygrps-yiv-80295268yiv7767478688ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-80295268 | 31490|31480|2014-11-19 12:48:35|Matt Malone|Re: meaning of welding electrode numbers| Absolutely correct.  Different properties next to each other can cause problems in high stress.  This can be seen most easily by sticking Scotch tape to plastic food wrap and pull on the wrap to near-failure.  The presence of the stiffer tape can over-stress the food wrap near the tape.  One also has to have very good welds and must grind them flush to avoid stress risers even with 60-series rod.   Having a weld that is thicker than the base metal can cause the same problems.  Having a void or bad spot in a weldment that has be ground flush can also cause a stress riser.  Mini-bike frames are small welds on spread out loads, a tougher welding problem.   Boat hulls are spread out loads and spread out welds, it is a better case.  It is one of the influences that has made Origami easier and more successful for a home-build process.  But by all means it is better to learn to make good 6011 welds than to dig into this "margin for error". My fear of bad welds means, I ignore the stress riser problem, have base metal that is thicker than I need and then weld it even more thoroughly and don't grind.   Because the metal is thicker than I need, I am not at "high stress".  Overkill and heavy and not at all professional, but after a few disappointments early in my hobby welding, it has been 35 years since I have had to weld something a second time.   For stuff that is point-loads, that I have to look at, I will keep to the overkill and 7018 because it works better for me.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 10:43:05 -0500Subject: Re: [origamiboats] meaning of welding electrode numbers   This is good accurate info.  One thing to understand.  On mild steel, 60,000 psi tensile you can not actually get a stronger weld with a 70,000 psi rod and actually can get cracking in high stress situations because the difference in tensile strength creates a stress riser in the fusion zone.  Had this problem when I was a kid building mini-bikes.  On tube would frequently break right beyond the weld.  It was because I was welding with 7014.  At 12 I didn’t know any better.   Gary H. Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] meaning of welding electrode numbers     The American Welding Society (AWS) numbering system can tell a welder quite a bit about a specific stick electrode including what application it works best in and how it should be used to maximize performance.   The prefix "E" designates an arc welding electrode. The first two digits of a 4-digit number and the first three digits of 5-digit number indicate minimum tensile strength. For example, E6010 is a 60,000 psi tensile strength electrode while E10018 designates a 100,000 psi tensile strength electrode. E 60 1 10 Electrode Tensile Strength Position Type of Coating and Current The next to last digit indicates position. The "1" designates an all position electrode, "2" is for flat and horizontal positions only; while "4" indicates an electrode that can be used for flat, horizontal, vertical down and overhead. The last 2 digits taken together indicate the type of coating and the correct polarity or current to use. See chart below:   Digit Type of Coating Welding Current 0 High cellulose sodium DC+ 1 High cellulose potassium AC, DC+ or DC- 2 High titania sodium AC, DC- 3 High titania potassium AC, DC+ 4 Iron powder, titania AC, DC+ or DC- 5 Low hydrogen sodium DC+ 6 Low hydrogen potassium AC, DC+ 7 High iron oxide, iron powder AC, DC+ or DC- 8 Low hydrogen potassium, iron powder AC, DC+ or DC-   As a welder, there are certain electrodes that you will most likely see and use time and time again as you go about your daily operations. A DC machine produces a smoother arc. DC rated electrodes will only run on a DC welding machine. Electrodes which are rated for AC welding are more forgiving and can also be used with a DC machine. Here are some of the most common electrodes and how they are typically used: E6010DC only and designed for putting the root bead on the inside of a piece of pipe, this is the most penetrating arc of all. It is tops to dig through rust, oil, paint or dirt. It is an all-position electrode that beginning welders usually find extremely difficult, but is loved by pipeline welders worldwide.   E6011This electrode is used for all-position AC welding or for welding on rusty, dirty, less-than-new metal. It has a deep, penetrating arc and is often the first choice for repair or maintenance work when DC is unavailable.   E6013This all-position, AC electrode is used for welding clean, new sheet metal. Its soft arc has minimal spatter, moderate penetration and an easy-to-clean slag.   E7018A low-hydrogen, usually DC, all-position electrode used when quality is an issue or for hard-to-weld metals. It has the capability of producing more uniform weld metal, which has better impact properties at temperatures below zero.   E7024Typically used to make a large weld downhand with AC in plate that is at least ¼" thick, but more commonly used for plate that is ½" and up. . Other Electrodes
Although not nearly as common, an electrode may have additional numbers after it such as E8018-B2H4R. In this case, the "B2" indicates chemical composition of the weld metal deposit. The "H4" is the diffusible hydrogen designator, which indicates the maximum diffusible hydrogen level obtained with the product. And "R" stands for the moisture resistant designator to indicate the electrode's ability to meet specific low moisture pickup limits under controlled humidification tests. | 31491|31491|2014-11-20 12:03:41|smallboatvoyaguer|Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.| Bear with me, as I am just beginning to build, and surely will have many more questions for the veteran builders. I'm hoping to do a lot of construction in doors this winter. I have been making templates for various small parts (bow roller, tabernacle, etc) and am now wanting to make templates for my fore-deck and side-decks. Once my templates are made, I will begin fabricating the individual components of the boat. My questions are these:   The fore deck and side decks have a bit of camber. Also, they are slightly angled up when installed. I'm wondering if these two actions (camber, angle) will affect the profile of the edge that meets the hull and if this needs to be compensated for while making the templates.  Basically, is it possible to make the templates for the fore deck and side deck without having the hull to reference?  I'd like to fabricate and prime the keel, skeg, rudder, fore deck, side deck, longitudinal stringers, and other small parts this winter. Then, pull the hull together this next spring. The large plates for my hull are sitting in the yard, but I won't be messing with them again until April or May.  Thanks. | 31492|31491|2014-11-20 12:57:32|James Pronk|Re: Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.|Sounds like we are doing about the same think.I have fore and side decks cut out, cabin sides are cut out, rudder is made, all deck hardware and hatches are made and I want to get going on building the keels. I keep getting kicked in the head by this rat race! Need to find my way out of it!Good luckJames From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc. Sent: Thu, Nov 20, 2014 5:03:41 PM    Bear with me, as I am just beginning to build, and surely will have many more questions for the veteran builders. I'm hoping to do a lot of construction in doors this winter. I have been making templates for various small parts (bow roller, tabernacle, etc) and am now wanting to make templates for my fore-deck and side-decks. Once my templates are made, I will begin fabricating the individual components of the boat. My questions are these:   The fore deck and side decks have a bit of camber. Also, they are slightly angled up when installed. I'm wondering if these two actions (camber, angle) will affect the profile of the edge that meets the hull and if this needs to be compensated for while making the templates.  Basically, is it possible to make the templates for the fore deck and side deck without having the hull to reference?  I'd like to fabricate and prime the keel, skeg, rudder, fore deck, side deck, longitudinal stringers, and other small parts this winter. Then, pull the hull together this next spring. The large plates for my hull are sitting in the yard, but I won't be messing with them again until April or May.  Thanks.  | 31493|31493|2014-11-20 19:51:09|mountain man|Good deal| I wanted to share this if it is still for sale;http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/boa/4742897948.htmlit sounds like a good deal for someone who is on the west coast and  ready to go sailing I know it is a plastic boat, but they usually sell for more than the current asking price,and it as a newer Yanmar engineMartin | 31494|31491|2014-11-20 23:28:23|Aaron|Re: Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.|Are you talking cardboard templates?   From: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 8:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.    Bear with me, as I am just beginning to build, and surely will have many more questions for the veteran builders. I'm hoping to do a lot of construction in doors this winter. I have been making templates for various small parts (bow roller, tabernacle, etc) and am now wanting to make templates for my fore-deck and side-decks. Once my templates are made, I will begin fabricating the individual components of the boat. My questions are these:   The fore deck and side decks have a bit of camber. Also, they are slightly angled up when installed. I'm wondering if these two actions (camber, angle) will affect the profile of the edge that meets the hull and if this needs to be compensated for while making the templates.  Basically, is it possible to make the templates for the fore deck and side deck without having the hull to reference?  I'd like to fabricate and prime the keel, skeg, rudder, fore deck, side deck, longitudinal stringers, and other small parts this winter. Then, pull the hull together this next spring. The large plates for my hull are sitting in the yard, but I won't be messing with them again until April or May.  Thanks.  | 31495|31480|2014-11-21 01:32:46|wild_explorer|Re: 7018 Electrodes|7018, 7024 are electrodes which are used in shipbuilding. 7018 is used in construction and main electrode in SMAW welding class.The "reason" for dumping 7018 electrodes is that after opening sealed container they are "good" (certified performance) for about 8 hours. More likely, it is easier to dump unused electrodes than properly bake it in field conditions. To reuse it, it is need to "bake" 7018 rods at certain temperature and specified time in rods' oven (same is for 7024 as well). If I remember correctly, there is a limit how many times you can bake these electrodes.Note: 7018 needs DC, regardless of  claimed "compatibility" with AC. I called manufacturer and asked why 7018  does not work with AC when it claimed to be compatible with AC. Answer was that manufacturer is required to test electrodes with AC, and because very good welder may be able to make a weld with AC if REALLY needed (no other choice) - it is compatible ;))) I was not able even make a short weld using 7018 with AC welder.7024 welds good with AC and DC.P.S. I am using 7018 on my boat, and it gives really good welds (without baking - just keep it dry).So, preference for 6011 and 7024 is mainly because it is compatible with AC and DC. 6011 is being most universal in field conditions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods.*** Skipped*** I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals. | 31496|31480|2014-11-21 06:15:52|James Pronk|Re: 7018 Electrodes|All electrodes need to be kept dry but only the low hydrogen rods (like 7018) need to be baked in an oven after opening. 7024 are not a low hydrogen electrode and do not need to be baked in an oven. James From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 7018 Electrodes Sent: Fri, Nov 21, 2014 6:31:46 AM   7018, 7024 are electrodes which are used in shipbuilding. 7018 is used in construction and main electrode in SMAW welding class.The "reason" for dumping 7018 electrodes is that after opening sealed container they are "good" (certified performance) for about 8 hours. More likely, it is easier to dump unused electrodes than properly bake it in field conditions. To reuse it, it is need to "bake" 7018 rods at certain temperature and specified time in rods' oven (same is for 7024 as well). If I remember correctly, there is a limit how many times you can bake these electrodes.Note: 7018 needs DC, regardless of  claimed "compatibility" with AC. I called manufacturer and asked why 7018  does not work with AC when it claimed to be compatible with AC. Answer was that manufacturer is required to test electrodes with AC, and because very good welder may be able to make a weld with AC if REALLY needed (no other choice) - it is compatible ;))) I was not able even make a short weld using 7018 with AC welder.7024 welds good with AC and DC.P.S. I am using 7018 on my boat, and it gives really good welds (without baking - just keep it dry).So, preference for 6011 and 7024 is mainly because it is compatible with AC and DC. 6011 is being most universal in field conditions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods.*** Skipped*** I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals.  | 31497|31491|2014-11-21 10:02:23|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.|Yes, cardboard templates.| 31499|31499|2014-11-21 11:44:06|James Pronk|Re: Type of Aluminum for hatches|I used 5052 but it is what I could get at the scrap yard.This might help.http://youboat.net/diy/metalBoats/aluminumAlloys.aspxJames From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Type of Aluminum for hatches Sent: Fri, Nov 21, 2014 3:36:49 PM    Anybody got tips on which grade of aluminum to use for hatches?  | 31500|31480|2014-11-21 12:00:46|A Ellzey|Re: 7018 Electrodes|I use 7018 on my boat because that is what I used most of the time working. If they get damp I just put them in the oven at 500 degrees for an hour or so. .No problem On Friday, November 21, 2014 1:32 AM, "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   7018, 7024 are electrodes which are used in shipbuilding. 7018 is used in construction and main electrode in SMAW welding class.The "reason" for dumping 7018 electrodes is that after opening sealed container they are "good" (certified performance) for about 8 hours. More likely, it is easier to dump unused electrodes than properly bake it in field conditions. To reuse it, it is need to "bake" 7018 rods at certain temperature and specified time in rods' oven (same is for 7024 as well). If I remember correctly, there is a limit how many times you can bake these electrodes.Note: 7018 needs DC, regardless of  claimed "compatibility" with AC. I called manufacturer and asked why 7018  does not work with AC when it claimed to be compatible with AC. Answer was that manufacturer is required to test electrodes with AC, and because very good welder may be able to make a weld with AC if REALLY needed (no other choice) - it is compatible ;))) I was not able even make a short weld using 7018 with AC welder.7024 welds good with AC and DC.P.S. I am using 7018 on my boat, and it gives really good welds (without baking - just keep it dry).So, preference for 6011 and 7024 is mainly because it is compatible with AC and DC. 6011 is being most universal in field conditions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods.*** Skipped*** I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals.  #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 -- #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041activity span .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 dd.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 dd.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 dd.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041last p span.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 div#ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 .ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 input, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041 #ygrps-yiv-1817174009yiv2779747041ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1817174009 | 31501|31499|2014-11-21 12:01:12|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Type of Aluminum for hatches|Thanks. That's the grade I came up with in my searches as well.| 31502|31499|2014-11-21 15:41:13|opuspaul|Re: Type of Aluminum for hatches|Most of the French yachts built of aluminum use 5083.I built a dinghy out of 6061.  It has stood up well and I wouldn't worry at all about using 6061 for a hatch.  I think 6061 is what they commonly use to make masts.| 31503|31499|2014-11-21 16:09:57|Hannu Venermo|Re: Type of Aluminum for hatches| Strong Yachts - 5086 Futuna -5086 with Mig and Tig OVNI (Alubat) - 5083 http://ovni435.free.fr/page41.html 5086 – H116 Aluminum http://www.anchoryachts.com/strongyachts_strongall.php http://www.futuna-yachts.com/construction/marine-aluminum Personally, I doubt it matters which alloy it is. On 21/11/2014 21:41, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Most of the French yachts built of aluminum use 5083. I built a dinghy out of 6061.  It has stood up well and I wouldn't worry at all about using 6061 for a hatch.  I think 6061 is what they commonly use to make masts. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31504|31480|2014-11-21 16:45:54|mountain man|Re: 7018 Electrodes| I too put them(7018) in the oven at 500 deg. but for maybe 10 to 15 minutes??? is it enough???To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:57:47 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 7018 Electrodes   I use 7018 on my boat because that is what I used most of the time working. If they get damp I just put them in the oven at 500 degrees for an hour or so. .No problem On Friday, November 21, 2014 1:32 AM, "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   7018, 7024 are electrodes which are used in shipbuilding. 7018 is used in construction and main electrode in SMAW welding class.The "reason" for dumping 7018 electrodes is that after opening sealed container they are "good" (certified performance) for about 8 hours. More likely, it is easier to dump unused electrodes than properly bake it in field conditions. To reuse it, it is need to "bake" 7018 rods at certain temperature and specified time in rods' oven (same is for 7024 as well). If I remember correctly, there is a limit how many times you can bake these electrodes.Note: 7018 needs DC, regardless of  claimed "compatibility" with AC. I called manufacturer and asked why 7018  does not work with AC when it claimed to be compatible with AC. Answer was that manufacturer is required to test electrodes with AC, and because very good welder may be able to make a weld with AC if REALLY needed (no other choice) - it is compatible ;))) I was not able even make a short weld using 7018 with AC welder.7024 welds good with AC and DC.P.S. I am using 7018 on my boat, and it gives really good welds (without baking - just keep it dry).So, preference for 6011 and 7024 is mainly because it is compatible with AC and DC. 6011 is being most universal in field conditions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So. I have an almost infinite supply of free, almost new, 1/8" 7018 rods.*** Skipped*** I'm wondering if these are acceptable to use on my boat. I know 7014 and 6011 is preferred... I know I still need 6011 for overhead and verticals.  | 31505|31480|2014-11-21 16:50:21|theboilerflue|Re: 7018 Electrodes|I used a bunch of 7018 rods on my boat, I don't think they're any problem a bit more finiky and they tend to distort plate more as you gotta crank the amps to get good penetration, good for the neavy stuff like the hull, keels, frames and such. They're great for going over top of a shitty 6011 weld or filling in other side of a weld after welding the otherside and blowing all the shit out with 6011. They don't have the goudging power of 6011 so you need a slightly cleaner weld and they're a pain to spark up, take a lot of banging to get the slag chiped off at the tip to arc. I would go over all the hul seams on the inside with 7018 after pulling it together with 6011. They are easy to use as you can pretty much just push them into the puddle and let the rod melt down at an angle, very much like 7024 with a smaller slag puddle. They are really nice to just crank up to near their max amperage as the weld pretty much just melts flush into the work.| 31506|31480|2014-11-22 00:25:50|Aaron|Re: 7018 Electrodes|I used 7018 on my hull because I had easy access to it, But I think getting 7024 for the deck to hull would be the best way and you would end up with a very nice and easily paintable joint. Brent has also said it is the better way. Use a file for scratching the end of the 7018 makes it clean for re starting arcAaron  From: "haidan@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 7018 Electrodes   I used a bunch of 7018 rods on my boat, I don't think they're any problem a bit more finiky and they tend to distort plate more as you gotta crank the amps to get good penetration, good for the neavy stuff like the hull, keels, frames and such. They're great for going over top of a shitty 6011 weld or filling in other side of a weld after welding the otherside and blowing all the shit out with 6011. They don't have the goudging power of 6011 so you need a slightly cleaner weld and they're a pain to spark up, take a lot of banging to get the slag chiped off at the tip to arc. I would go over all the hul seams on the inside with 7018 after pulling it together with 6011. They are easy to use as you can pretty much just push them into the puddle and let the rod melt down at an angle, very much like 7024 with a smaller slag puddle. They are really nice to just crank up to near their max amperage as the weld pretty much just melts flush into the work. #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 -- #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415activity span .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 dd.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 dd.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 dd.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415last p span.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 div#ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 .ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 input, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415 #ygrps-yiv-843086351yiv1445169415ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-843086351 | 31507|31480|2014-11-22 14:54:20|brentswain38|Re: 7018 Electrodes|They are a lot harder to use, and finicky. They have to be super dry. When I worked for Great west steel in the 70s, they were only available as a DC rod. They gave me DC, rods and insisted I use them with the AC machine I had. The welds were full of bubbles and looked like an aero bar inside, but they were happy .   The owner of the first 36 I built was given a lot of DC 7018s, still in the boxes, unopened . He traded them pound for pound with a welding shop down the road, for AC rods. Make sure that any rods you use are for the polarity on your welder.Perhaps you can trade some with a welding shop, for other rods, or trade a lot of them for  a much smaller amount of stainless. Welding rods are a substantial cost . Finding freebies is a great find.| 31508|31499|2014-11-22 14:56:00|brentswain38|Re: Type of Aluminum for hatches|5052 is fine for hatches. Hatches , not being submerged ,is very forgiving as to types of aluminium used.| 31509|31491|2014-11-22 14:58:09|brentswain38|Re: Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.|Cardboard templates are fine. Just lay out your deck full size, to  make sure everything is fair curves.| 31510|31491|2014-11-22 15:06:56|brentswain38|Re: Making templates for fore deck, side deck, etc.|No, your decks meet the hull 4 inches below the top of the bulwark pipe all around ,except at the stern , where the bulwark height rises to 7 inches, in the last 6 feet, for drainage aft,  and to allow a good sized chock in the bulwark. The top of the anchor well lid also drops down, to allow a good sized chock in the bow bulwark.Pre building these parts is a great way to go. It drastically reduces building time once you start the hull.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Bear with me, as I am just beginning to build, and surely will have many more questions for the veteran builders. I'm hoping to do a lot of construction in doors this winter. I have been making templates for various small parts (bow roller, tabernacle, etc) and am now wanting to make templates for my fore-deck and side-decks. Once my templates are made, I will begin fabricating the individual components of the boat. My questions are these:   The fore deck and side decks have a bit of camber. Also, they are slightly angled up when installed. I'm wondering if these two actions (camber, angle) will affect the profile of the edge that meets the hull and if this needs to be compensated for while making the templates.  Basically, is it possible to make the templates for the fore deck and side deck without having the hull to reference?  I'd like to fabricate and prime the keel, skeg, rudder, fore deck, side deck, longitudinal stringers, and other small parts this winter. Then, pull the hull together this next spring. The large plates for my hull are sitting in the yard, but I won't be messing with them again until April or May.  Thanks. | 31511|31480|2014-11-22 15:13:58|brentswain38|Re: meaning of welding electrode numbers|Your odds of having weld failures in the size of boat we are dealing with here, even the worst welds,  are as close to zero as you will ever get. 3/16th plate has the tensile strength of 7 1/2 inch douglas fir, along the grain. Unlike fir , or fibreglass for that matter, metal has the same strength in all directions.How does the strength of even the worst weld compare with that of a copper fastening in wood every 6 inches, or glass fibres simply gooped together, with a relatively poor bonding agent?No comparison!| 31512|31477|2014-11-22 15:29:14|brentswain38|Re: The Paypal Scam|Still cant get any money out of them. They told me that if I don't get it out in 30 days, they keep the money.THATS A SCAM!!Most  areas of the BC coast have no internet access, nor phone access, nor bank access.  It may work for someone living right next to a bank , with full time internet access, the urban cookie cutter lifestyle which most wannabe cruisers are trying to escape from,  but for me it is simply unuseable . Just had my first bank access in a month of cruising. It was 6 months when I was at Fanning and the Cook Islands.  When I asked my bank how I access paypal, they had no idea, and told me they have no interest in dealing with paypal, suggesting they know what a scam it is , as far as they are concerned.| 31513|31477|2014-11-22 16:43:37|opuspaul|Re: The Paypal Scam|I don't understand the problem.   The only condition I found with Paypal is that you have to have a current and valid credit card on their system.  They have nothing to do with the banks but it works well.I find not traveling without a bank card and credit card almost impossible nowadays.  Like it or not, the days of going cash only are gone if you want to travel internationally.    Customs, immigration, money transfers, etc....you need to be in the system.  If you aren't they look at you like you are a nut and think you are running from something.   My friend from Fiji tried doing without a credit card and bank card on a yacht delivery and it ended up costing him a fortune in money transfer fees and taxi fares in to town when he needed to get cash so he could buy things.   All I needed to do was get some extra cash when I buy a drink from the bar.   Western Union and normal money transfers through banks are a rip off with high transaction fees.   The cheapest way to get money is through a debit card or a bank machine.   Banks and banks machines are everywhere now, even in places like Marquesas and in the outer islands of Tonga.   Fanning is extremely remote but they may even have a bank now because I heard that the cruise ships now stop there.   The only place I have been where there was no banking system allowing transfers or money withdrawals was Burma and that was more than ten years ago.  I suspect it is OK now.  My travel credit card doesn't cost me anything.  If anything it has saved me money.  I have arranged to get it automatically paid each month.   Visa carries me for a month and then when it gets paid off at the end of the month there is no interest as long as the full amount is paid.  If I buy an airline ticket or rent a car, I get free travel insurance.   I have now done internet banking with my laptop in probably 20 different countries and never had a problem.  I am sure you could get online at many different resorts or places up the BC coast via a laptop and do internet banking.   Honestly, it does not bring you in to the rat race, if you do it right it helps keep you out.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Still cant get any money out of them. They told me that if I don't get it out in 30 days, they keep the money.THATS A SCAM!!Most  areas of the BC coast have no internet access, nor phone access, nor bank access.  It may work for someone living right next to a bank , with full time internet access, the urban cookie cutter lifestyle which most wannabe cruisers are trying to escape from,  but for me it is simply unuseable . Just had my first bank access in a month of cruising. It was 6 months when I was at Fanning and the Cook Islands.  When I asked my bank how I access paypal, they had no idea, and told me they have no interest in dealing with paypal, suggesting they know what a scam it is , as far as they are concerned.| 31514|31480|2014-11-22 19:38:25|Matt Malone|Re: 7018 Electrodes| I find 7018AC easy to start.  They love the Amps.  Easy to make a good fillet between two thick pieces of metal at 90 degrees in multiple passes.   I like 5/32" rods on 205Amps AC with 1/4" or thicker steel.   I keep my rod in sealed plastic containers for non-critical stuff:http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/welding-electrode-keeper/A-p8089732eThese ones have a rubber-o-ring for the seal.  For stuff I really have to depend on, I get a new box.  Since it takes them 8 hours to absorb moisture from the air and go bad, I am assuming baking them at 500F for at least an hour would be required to really rejuvenate them.   The keepers seem to keep my rod dry enough that I have never tried.  New 7018AC, the flux is nearly white.  Moisture-absorbed stuff, the flux is a charcoal grey.   Perhaps the colour will tell you when the rod has had the water driven out of it in the oven.I always re-orient to make the job flat.  With a smooth movement of the hand, and long welds, the slag peels right off about 2" behind where I am welding.   I use a knotted cup brush on a angle grinder to take care of any slag that does not lift by itself.  In 3-sided corners I sometimes have to use the chipping hammer.   http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/3-in-knotted-wire-cup-brush/A-p8170441eThey have them on sale for $5 each from time to time.  I buy 4 at a time.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 11:54:20 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 7018 Electrodes   They are a lot harder to use, and finicky. They have to be super dry. When I worked for Great west steel in the 70s, they were only available as a DC rod. They gave me DC, rods and insisted I use them with the AC machine I had. The welds were full of bubbles and looked like an aero bar inside, but they were happy .   The owner of the first 36 I built was given a lot of DC 7018s, still in the boxes, unopened . He traded them pound for pound with a welding shop down the road, for AC rods. Make sure that any rods you use are for the polarity on your welder.Perhaps you can trade some with a welding shop, for other rods, or trade a lot of them for  a much smaller amount of stainless. Welding rods are a substantial cost . Finding freebies is a great find. | 31515|31477|2014-11-23 02:31:02|wild_explorer|Re: The Paypal Scam|PayPal will not make your life easier. It is just another alternative to banks, credit cards, etc. Another "electronic money" service designed to make you sell/buy something through its system (and eBay).I took a look at PayPal user agreement (was not using it for a long time). It looks like 30 day limit is for unprocessed payments (money were sent (without invoice?) and not processed/accepted by merchant). At this case money will be returned to the sender (not kept by PayPal). You will not be able to get check to "unconfirmed" address which most cruisers have ;-(It is too much troubles (and insecure) to provide your main (not specially open for PayPal) bank account information to PayPal just to get Verified Account and use it for receiving small amount of money and pay fees for physical check and currency conversion.QUOTE:Any unclaimed, refunded or denied payment will be returned to your Balance or to the original Payment Method. We will return any unclaimed payment to you within 30 Days of the date you initiated payment.6.1 How to Withdraw Money. You may withdraw funds from your Account by electronically transferring them to your bank account, requesting a physical check through the mail, or using your PayPal Debit Card (eligible Users only). Funds may only be withdrawn in US Dollars.If you request a physical check, you will be charged the Withdrawing your Balance Fee as set out in Section 8. Generally, we will send checks only to Confirmed Addresses, unless you have a Verified Account. We will not send checks to P.O. Boxes. If you would like us to send a check to an address that does not meet these criteria, you must contact Customer Service and provide the documentation that we request to verify your association with the address. If you fail to cash a check within 180 Days of the date of issuance, we will return the funds to your Balance but we will retain the Withdrawing your Balance Fee.END of Quote---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Still cant get any money out of them. They told me that if I don't get it out in 30 days, they keep the money.THATS A SCAM!!***Skipped****  When I asked my bank how I access paypal, they had no idea, and told me they have no interest in dealing with paypal, suggesting they know what a scam it is , as far as they are concerned. | 31516|31477|2014-11-23 09:26:34|Matt Malone|Re: The Paypal Scam| Brent, PayPal has done nothing but work well for me.  I have bought things and received a refund when the product was crap.   Attach a credit card to the paypal or a bank account.   I had never heard of requesting a cheque but if Willis quoted that from the agreement with paypal then I guess it works too.   I deal with people selling good stuff second hand via ebay.   I know one quite well, he has a physical shop near me.  He has no trouble at all, selling thousands a month electronically.   Another similar shop has gone all electronic, the closed up their physical shop several years ago and sell via the web out of a barn.I think making your paypal work correctly, by registering with them with a credit card or bank account would be really useful to you in the future because then people would not have to send you a check in the mail.   If you cannot do bank transactions when cruising, then how do you receive cheques in the mail ?   That was not really a question, just a suggestion, if you are able to accomplish one, I am certain there is a way to accomplish the other.  Yes, it means internet access, and yes, there are a few remote islands where there is no web access, no libraries, no internet cafes.   If people did not have to send you a physical cheque in the mail, more people would be likely to buy your book on a whim.  That may sound odd to you being as you are not accustomed to paypal, however it is true.    It is not a scam.  It is a learning opportunity and it will benefit you.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 23:31:02 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] The Paypal Scam   PayPal will not make your life easier. It is just another alternative to banks, credit cards, etc. Another "electronic money" service designed to make you sell/buy something through its system (and eBay).I took a look at PayPal user agreement (was not using it for a long time). It looks like 30 day limit is for unprocessed payments (money were sent (without invoice?) and not processed/accepted by merchant). At this case money will be returned to the sender (not kept by PayPal). You will not be able to get check to "unconfirmed" address which most cruisers have ;-(It is too much troubles (and insecure) to provide your main (not specially open for PayPal) bank account information to PayPal just to get Verified Account and use it for receiving small amount of money and pay fees for physical check and currency conversion.QUOTE:Any unclaimed, refunded or denied payment will be returned to your Balance or to the original Payment Method. We will return any unclaimed payment to you within 30 Days of the date you initiated payment.6.1 How to Withdraw Money. You may withdraw funds from your Account by electronically transferring them to your bank account, requesting a physical check through the mail, or using your PayPal Debit Card (eligible Users only). Funds may only be withdrawn in US Dollars.If you request a physical check, you will be charged the Withdrawing your Balance Fee as set out in Section 8. Generally, we will send checks only to Confirmed Addresses, unless you have a Verified Account. We will not send checks to P.O. Boxes. If you would like us to send a check to an address that does not meet these criteria, you must contact Customer Service and provide the documentation that we request to verify your association with the address. If you fail to cash a check within 180 Days of the date of issuance, we will return the funds to your Balance but we will retain the Withdrawing your Balance Fee.END of Quote---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Still cant get any money out of them. They told me that if I don't get it out in 30 days, they keep the money.THATS A SCAM!!***Skipped****  When I asked my bank how I access paypal, they had no idea, and told me they have no interest in dealing with paypal, suggesting they know what a scam it is , as far as they are concerned.  | 31517|31477|2014-11-23 10:43:50|Alan Boucher|Re: The Paypal Scam|Welcome to the 21st century!  Except for the obvious wild card of someone hacking your account, the evolving systems like Paypal and the more advanced internet systems work, and for the most part make transactions fast and secure.  There is a handling cost in any transaction which can be money, time, or difficulty.  I've never had a problem with a Paypal transaction that wasn't quickly resolved.  Some people use Paypal as a buffer between the purchaser or seller and their credit card or bank account.  Short of Fedexing cash, you're going to have to deal with the systems as they exist. On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 2:31 AM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   PayPal will not make your life easier. It is just another alternative to banks, credit cards, etc. Another "electronic money" service designed to make you sell/buy something through its system (and eBay).I took a look at PayPal user agreement (was not using it for a long time). It looks like 30 day limit is for unprocessed payments (money were sent (without invoice?) and not processed/accepted by merchant). At this case money will be returned to the sender (not kept by PayPal). You will not be able to get check to "unconfirmed" address which most cruisers have ;-(It is too much troubles (and insecure) to provide your main (not specially open for PayPal) bank account information to PayPal just to get Verified Account and use it for receiving small amount of money and pay fees for physical check and currency conversion.QUOTE:Any unclaimed, refunded or denied payment will be returned to your Balance or to the original Payment Method. We will return any unclaimed payment to you within 30 Days of the date you initiated payment.6.1 How to Withdraw Money. You may withdraw funds from your Account by electronically transferring them to your bank account, requesting a physical check through the mail, or using your PayPal Debit Card (eligible Users only). Funds may only be withdrawn in US Dollars.If you request a physical check, you will be charged the Withdrawing your Balance Fee as set out in Section 8. Generally, we will send checks only to Confirmed Addresses, unless you have a Verified Account. We will not send checks to P.O. Boxes. If you would like us to send a check to an address that does not meet these criteria, you must contact Customer Service and provide the documentation that we request to verify your association with the address. If you fail to cash a check within 180 Days of the date of issuance, we will return the funds to your Balance but we will retain the Withdrawing your Balance Fee.END of Quote---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Still cant get any money out of them. They told me that if I don't get it out in 30 days, they keep the money.THATS A SCAM!!***Skipped****  When I asked my bank how I access paypal, they had no idea, and told me they have no interest in dealing with paypal, suggesting they know what a scam it is , as far as they are concerned.  -- Al Boucher | 31518|31518|2014-11-23 11:23:57|mountain man|dead eyes shrouds| Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31519|31518|2014-11-23 11:58:37|Chris Harnan|Re: dead eyes shrouds|They work well on gaff rig but I doubt you would ever get the shroud tight enough for Burmudan.Kind regards Chris Harnan On 23 Nov 2014, at 16:20, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin| 31520|31518|2014-11-23 12:04:37|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| does the mast on a gaff rig needs less tension?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:58:34 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dead eyes shrouds   They work well on gaff rig but I doubt you would ever get the shroud tight enough for Burmudan.Kind regards Chris Harnan On 23 Nov 2014, at 16:20, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31521|31518|2014-11-23 12:53:48|Chris Harnan|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Absolutely - that is the advantage. It is a low tech low tension rig which is easy to maintain. Apart from beating, it is as fast as a Bermudan, but without all the stress. Apart from when the topsails are set, the main lacks luff length, hence the problem with beating.I hope this won't start a gaff versus Bermudan debate!Kind regards Chris Harnan On 23 Nov 2014, at 17:02, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:does the mast on a gaff rig needs less tension?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:58:34 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dead eyes shrouds They work well on gaff rig but I doubt you would ever get the shroud tight enough for Burmudan.Kind regardsChris HarnanOn 23 Nov 2014, at 16:20, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin| 31522|31518|2014-11-23 13:15:27|James Pronk|Re: dead eyes shrouds|I was able to buy 12-5/8" galvanized turn buckles for less the $200 from Princess AutoJames From: mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] dead eyes shrouds Sent: Sun, Nov 23, 2014 4:20:25 PM   Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31523|31518|2014-11-23 13:16:23|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| wich lenght?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:15:26 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dead eyes shrouds   I was able to buy 12-5/8" galvanized turn buckles for less the $200 from Princess AutoJames From: mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] dead eyes shrouds Sent: Sun, Nov 23, 2014 4:20:25 PM   Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31524|31477|2014-11-23 13:21:28|brentswain38|Re: The Paypal Scam|Would a prepaid credit card work? What minimum amount?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I don't understand the problem.   The only condition I found with Paypal is that you have to have a current and valid credit card on their system.  They have nothing to do with the banks but it works well.I find not traveling without a bank card and credit card almost impossible nowadays.  Like it or not, the days of going cash only are gone if you want to travel internationally.    Customs, immigration, money transfers, etc....you need to be in the system.  If you aren't they look at you like you are a nut and think you are running from something.   My friend from Fiji tried doing without a credit card and bank card on a yacht delivery and it ended up costing him a fortune in money transfer fees and taxi fares in to town when he needed to get cash so he could buy things.   All I needed to do was get some extra cash when I buy a drink from the bar.   Western Union and normal money transfers through banks are a rip off with high transaction fees.   The cheapest way to get money is through a debit card or a bank machine.   Banks and banks machines are everywhere now, even in places like Marquesas and in the outer islands of Tonga.   Fanning is extremely remote but they may even have a bank now because I heard that the cruise ships now stop there.   The only place I have been where there was no banking system allowing transfers or money withdrawals was Burma and that was more than ten years ago.  I suspect it is OK now.  My travel credit card doesn't cost me anything.  If anything it has saved me money.  I have arranged to get it automatically paid each month.   Visa carries me for a month and then when it gets paid off at the end of the month there is no interest as long as the full amount is paid.  If I buy an airline ticket or rent a car, I get free travel insurance.   I have now done internet banking with my laptop in probably 20 different countries and never had a problem.  I am sure you could get online at many different resorts or places up the BC coast via a laptop and do internet banking.   Honestly, it does not bring you in to the rat race, if you do it right it helps keep you out.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Still cant get any money out of them. They told me that if I don't get it out in 30 days, they keep the money.THATS A SCAM!!Most  areas of the BC coast have no internet access, nor phone access, nor bank access.  It may work for someone living right next to a bank , with full time internet access, the urban cookie cutter lifestyle which most wannabe cruisers are trying to escape from,  but for me it is simply unuseable . Just had my first bank access in a month of cruising. It was 6 months when I was at Fanning and the Cook Islands.  When I asked my bank how I access paypal, they had no idea, and told me they have no interest in dealing with paypal, suggesting they know what a scam it is , as far as they are concerned.| 31525|31518|2014-11-23 13:29:01|brentswain38|Re: dead eyes shrouds|With excellent 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles  being under $20 from Princess Auto, why would you?That is probably not much more  than the cost of rope for a deadeye.Turnbuckles are extremely trouble free.Keep it simple! Turnbuckles are far simpler to use, and far more effective---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-22268913 #ygrps-yiv-22268913ygrps-yiv-739691423 .ygrps-yiv-22268913ygrps-yiv-739691423hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-22268913 #ygrps-yiv-22268913ygrps-yiv-739691423 .ygrps-yiv-22268913ygrps-yiv-739691423hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin| 31526|31518|2014-11-23 13:56:45|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| wich lenght of turnbuckles do you use?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:29:01 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   With excellent 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles  being under $20 from Princess Auto, why would you?That is probably not much more  than the cost of rope for a deadeye.Turnbuckles are extremely trouble free.Keep it simple! Turnbuckles are far simpler to use, and far more effective---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31527|31518|2014-11-23 14:00:10|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| also, do you use jaw-jaw type turnbuckles?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:29:01 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   With excellent 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles  being under $20 from Princess Auto, why would you?That is probably not much more  than the cost of rope for a deadeye.Turnbuckles are extremely trouble free.Keep it simple! Turnbuckles are far simpler to use, and far more effective---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31528|31518|2014-11-23 14:06:07|brentswain38|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Yes I use jaw both ends. Length depends on how accurate you can keep your shrould length. Once set up, it doesnt change , so its not important.     Turnbuckles were a huge leap in sailing technology, from the days of deadeyes .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}also, do you use jaw-jaw type turnbuckles?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:29:01 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds  With excellent 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles  being under $20 from Princess Auto, why would you?That is probably not much more  than the cost of rope for a deadeye.Turnbuckles are extremely trouble free.Keep it simple! Turnbuckles are far simpler to use, and far more effective---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin#ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1005159759 #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963 .ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1005159759ygrps-yiv-86151963ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31529|31518|2014-11-23 14:07:53|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| ok,ThanksTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:06:06 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   Yes I use jaw both ends. Length depends on how accurate you can keep your shrould length. Once set up, it doesnt change , so its not important.     Turnbuckles were a huge leap in sailing technology, from the days of deadeyes .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :also, do you use jaw-jaw type turnbuckles?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:29:01 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds  With excellent 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles  being under $20 from Princess Auto, why would you?That is probably not much more  than the cost of rope for a deadeye.Turnbuckles are extremely trouble free.Keep it simple! Turnbuckles are far simpler to use, and far more effective---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31530|31518|2014-11-23 14:38:15|opuspaul|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Check the ratings on the turnbuckles.   There are some really crappy ones.  I had some galv turnbuckles go all sloppy in the threads after only a few years.   I think with any large force they would have stripped out so I replaced them.  As a general rule, fine thread turnbuckles are better quality and stronger than coarse thread turnbuckles.  They are now using dead eyes with Dynex rigging using Dynex line.   It is very, very strong and doesn't stretch so can be used with modern rigs but it can be a pain to adjust and set up.  The deadeyes must be made from a hard material if it is for a modern low stretch rig.   Some of the companies like Colligo use hardened anodized aluminum castings.   I think this is a big mistake.  Aluminum (anodized or not) and salt don't mix well.   I think it would corrode quickly in the tropics in a cruising boat.  The racing boats won't care.    It may be cheaper than SS turnbuckles and fittings but I sincerely doubt you would save any money over galv turnbuckles.| 31531|31477|2014-11-23 14:52:15|opuspaul|Re: The Paypal Scam|It has been a long time since I did it so I would check the help files on the Paypal site.  I think a prepaid card is OK.   If I remember right there is no minimum but you do a token transaction of a dollar or so to confirm to paypal that the card is valid.  If you sell something, there is a fee of a few percent which is how they make their money.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Would a prepaid credit card work? What minimum amount?| 31532|31518|2014-11-23 15:02:33|ragnarpar|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Ah rats!!! I was really looking forward to a fine discussion ref the merits of gaff vs Marconi /burmudan. Har P| 31533|31518|2014-11-23 15:21:26|Matt Malone|Re: dead eyes shrouds| Well, not saying anything bad about Princess Auto but $20 turn buckles to hold up your rig are by definition overhead, so, I would look carefully at them.  Also, at $20 each, it would not cost much to test one to destruction, just be sure.  Then test all the ones you intend to use to what you figure they should hold.   Yes, it does require something that will hold/hang a weight equivalent to the tension you expect, but, better spend a little time finding that and trying it.   I used two massive trees in the forest, a cable winch and a 4/3 pulley block set to test to 7 tons.   I put a hydraulic cylinder in, deadheaded with a pressure gage to figure out the load I was exerting.  Coincidentally, I got the cylinder at Princess Auto.  Honestly, a dead eye seems pretty easy and you can put 10 times the load carrying capability in it by just looping the rope through it enough times.  Since I have my cylinder, and my trees, I would proof test anything I intend to use as improvising rigging.   A lot of money can be saved, and, if anything breaks in the proof test, well that is just peace of mind later when you have already redesigned to include something beefier.  Word of warning, make sure to include a heavy timber snap-back barrier if you are going to be in-line with the pull test, or, use a $40 Princess Auto electric winch and stand well to the side.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:29:01 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   With excellent 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles  being under $20 from Princess Auto, why would you?That is probably not much more  than the cost of rope for a deadeye.Turnbuckles are extremely trouble free.Keep it simple! Turnbuckles are far simpler to use, and far more effective---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can we use dead eyes shrouds to tension wire rigging?has someone did it before?they are easy and cheap to make and to replace...Martin | 31534|31518|2014-11-23 16:21:14|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| this is an interesting article about dead eyes and synthetic riggings;http://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/synthetic-standing-rigging-the-modern-and-traditional/To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:38:15 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   Check the ratings on the turnbuckles.   There are some really crappy ones.  I had some galv turnbuckles go all sloppy in the threads after only a few years.   I think with any large force they would have stripped out so I replaced them.  As a general rule, fine thread turnbuckles are better quality and stronger than coarse thread turnbuckles.  They are now using dead eyes with Dynex rigging using Dynex line.   It is very, very strong and doesn't stretch so can be used with modern rigs but it can be a pain to adjust and set up.  The deadeyes must be made from a hard material if it is for a modern low stretch rig.   Some of the companies like Colligo use hardened anodized aluminum castings.   I think this is a big mistake.  Aluminum (anodized or not) and salt don't mix well.   I think it would corrode quickly in the tropics in a cruising boat.  The racing boats won't care.    It may be cheaper than SS turnbuckles and fittings but I sincerely doubt you would save any money over galv turnbuckles. | 31535|31518|2014-11-23 16:33:35|opuspaul|Re: dead eyes shrouds|This is the data for a standard good quality (Crosby) 5/8 inch galvanized turnbuckle.  I have seen these put on a lot of boats and have sailed offshore with them for thousands of miles.The 5/16 inch rigging on a 36 footer varies a bit between grades but lets say it is about 11,000 pounds.  They normally recommend turnbuckle to be aboutWorking load limit of the 5/8 galv turnbuckle is only 2250 pounds.   Proof Load is 2.5 times the Working Load Limit or 5625 pounds. Ultimate Load is five times the Working Load Limit or 11,250 pounds.   That is more like it but you are picking a turnbuckle with the same ultimate strength as the wire.   A good rule of thumb is to use fittings double the strength of the wire.So I have seen a few boats rig their 36 footers with 3/4 inch galv turnbuckles....they are 3000 pounds working load limit or 15,000 ultimate load.  This probably adds much more strength but they are huge.  A jaw to jaw 3/4 inch turnbuckle is almost 3 feet long fully extended and they weigh quite a bit.In contrast, a good quality Hayn 5/8 inch SS turnbuckle (58TFBJ) has a breaking strength of  17,500 pounds. A 1/2 inch which some people (not me) might put on a 36 footer is 12,000 pounds.  So for the same diameter, the SS turnbuckle are much, much stronger.Just to be clear, I am not saying that galvanized turnbuckles are not safe...they have proven the test of time and I have sailed thousands of miles with them.   Just make sure you get good ones because even the best ones may not be as strong as you might think.And never use galv D-type shackles in standing rigging.  I have seen this done again and again.  It might be OK for twin backstays or something without much load but I would never trust it in a highly loaded shroud like an upper.  The breaking strengths for them are worse than the turnbuckles.Stay on the look out for used gear.  I got old rigging and spars from a boat when I was outfitting in 1992.  I considered getting rid of the SS turnbuckles but knowing the above, I chose to keep them.  They were top of the line Navtec turnbuckles and they have given excellent service considering they are now probably 35 or 40 years old.   I clean, inspect, and relube them every year or so if I am in the tropics.  I die penetrated and tested them a few years ago when I was doing a bit refit.  My local rigging shop would probably test them for free.   I have found a couple of small hairline cracks in two of them.  The cracks were lengthwise along the body where the screw threads go.  This surprised me.   I don't think they would have failed without warning but you never know.   So I got a deal and bought two new SS turnbuckles and placed them in the uppers where there is no redundancy and the load is highest. | 31536|31518|2014-11-23 17:30:00|opuspaul|Re: dead eyes shrouds|You can look at almost any offshore racing boat and they are full of dynex rigging now.   Colligo claims to have rigged over 300 boats now but everyone seems to be doing it lately.It is tough stuff.  I think it was originally designed for trawl lines on fishing boats.   I think it was quickly picked up for logging as well.After 20 years of use and abuse of my SS rigging, I re-rigged my boat with Dynex Dux....I am very happy with it.   It was cheaper than using SS and buying a lot of expensive rigging terminals.  It is much stronger, probably more reliable and weighs a fraction of what wire rigging does so the boat is now stiffer and faster.   I covered it so with no UV exposure, I expect it to last many, many years.   I cast my own solid bronze thimbles for use with turnbuckles.  Everything is Dynex except the uppers, forestay and inner forestay which I kept SS  wire due to the roller furling and sail hanks.  I kept the SS uppers simply because I was nervous and I didn't want to go all in and experiment too much.  Knowing what I know now, I would consider Dynex for them if I was doing it again.I have noticed less stretch with the Dynex than wire.  One funny thing is that on a cold day, the rigging is slightly less tight than on a hot day.   It doesn't affect anything.   It is the alloy mast shrinking/ expanding more due to temperature changes than the Dynex.My first choice in rigging would be Dynex with SS forestays.  My second choice would be galvanized with SS forestays.  It is really all about the budget and how long you plan to own your boat.  SS has come down in price a lot over the years.  In many areas like NZ, galvanized wire is not that much cheaper than SS.   I have also found the galvanizing of smaller diameter wires to be very poor.  High salt, high heat environments like the tropics are much harder on galvanizing.   You need to paint it or regularly treat it for it to last.When I bought my Dynex, it wasn't commonly used so I got it fairly cheap from a wholesale fishing company (Codend) in Newfoundland.  I think prices went up for awhile as as all the stupid racers and stupid cruisers with unlimited budgets bought it at over inflated prices from the rigging shops.   The rising demand drove up prices.   I want my rigging to last the next 20 or 30 years.   As I said before, there is no way alluminum alloy thimbles will last long term on a cruising boat.   So until they come up with cheap SS or bronze hardware you can forget about the rigging companies high priced crappy stuff.  I don't know the current prices but if you can get a deal on the Dynex and you cast or buy your own bronze thimbles the cost of rigging in Dynex might not be as much as you think.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}this is an interesting article about dead eyes and synthetic riggings;http://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/synthetic-standing-rigging-the-modern-and-traditional/#ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-326100044 #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731 .ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-326100044ygrps-yiv-752341731ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31537|31477|2014-11-24 02:04:07|wild_explorer|Re: The Paypal Scam|Brent, in your case, simplest way is to find someone who does business using PayPal and ask that person a favor to help you. Transfer your money using PayPal to that person and get cash. After it, do not deal with PayPal anymore - it will not work for you.Yep, it is convenient for some people who buy/sell something using PayPal, but it is "electronic" money - hard to get cash from PayPal account when you need it. Second, you do not have "confirmed" address and shipping will be a problem. To get "confirmed" account, you need to jump over too many hoops in your case. Not worth of troubles.Prepaid "credit card" sold in stores will NOT work. I had several different types and had a hard time to pay with it online and in stores. The problem is that it is not "real" credit card and it creates lot of problems in its acceptance.Using debit card linked to your bank account is not a good idea as well (especially online) - you may loose all your money in your bank account. Recently, It was several cases of security breaches in big store's chains where card information was stolen from thousands of customers. Many of them lost all money and still fighting banks to get their money back.P.S. For people who believes in "secure" online banking, go to your local bank and ask bank manager to give you official statistics on online banking fraud (you may ask as well how many millions of dollars bank lost this month because of it).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Would a prepaid credit card work? What minimum amount?| 31538|31538|2014-11-26 11:46:23|smallboatvoyaguer|My Boat Blog|Hi all. If your interested you can follow the progress of my 31 footer here: + FLOAT PLAN + + FLOAT PLAN + Plasma, MPLS, Stainless, Deck Hardware November 26, 2014 November 26, 2014 ~ hifidubsters ~ Leave a comment View on marlinbuildsaboat.w... Preview by Yahoo  | 31539|30737|2014-11-26 22:53:48|kingsknight4life|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|JonIs your boat still for sale?Please contact me.thanks| 31540|30737|2014-11-27 12:39:21|Arthur D. Saftlas|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|I'd also be interested.| 31541|31518|2014-12-01 17:24:58|silascrosby|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Paul , that is very cool that you have re-rigged with Dynex. I often thought of that with Silas Crosby but never got to it (or I was too timid for such innovation is more likely), other than for my running backstays.I am in the process of acquiring a little folding trimaran (F27),and it will be the perfect candidate for a dynex standing rig when the ss wire needs replacing..Incidentally and btw, I had galvanised 1x7 forestay with furler over it, and inner forestay with a frequently-used bronze-hanked staysail on Silas Crosby. Surprisingly, rust was not a problem with either stay. Even after 20 years when I disassembled the furler the galv forestay was fine, but I replaced it anyways.cheers, Steve| 31542|31518|2014-12-01 18:16:28|opuspaul|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Hey Steve,Dynex would be great on a small trimaran.   An F27 must be a big change for you.  There is a guy who built one where I live.   He keeps it on a trailer.  They are really fun boats.I have found galvanizing pretty disappointing in the salty heat of the tropics, particularly if the wire strands are small.  I suspect the 1 x 7 wire from 20 or more years ago was hot dipped and is probably much better than the crappy galvanizing you seem to get nowadays.  I bought some galv wire for my anchor winch and it had just a thin flash of zinc on it.  I suspect it went through some kind of electro plating process since the zinc was so thin.  I know of a guy who just rigged his boat here in NZ with 1 x 19 galv and it is starting to rust after less than a year.  He has now coated it with some kind of linseed oil mix....he might have been better off painting it but I am not sure how well the paint would penetrate the strands.   The linseed oil seems to work but it is kind of sticky.Good luck with the trimaran...Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Paul , that is very cool that you have re-rigged with Dynex. I often thought of that with Silas Crosby but never got to it (or I was too timid for such innovation is more likely), other than for my running backstays.I am in the process of acquiring a little folding trimaran (F27),and it will be the perfect candidate for a dynex standing rig when the ss wire needs replacing..Incidentally and btw, I had galvanised 1x7 forestay with furler over it, and inner forestay with a frequently-used bronze-hanked staysail on Silas Crosby. Surprisingly, rust was not a problem with either stay. Even after 20 years when I disassembled the furler the galv forestay was fine, but I replaced it anyways.cheers, Steve| 31543|31518|2014-12-01 18:32:01|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| Steve,What size of 1x7 wire did you have?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:24:57 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   Paul , that is very cool that you have re-rigged with Dynex. I often thought of that with Silas Crosby but never got to it (or I was too timid for such innovation is more likely), other than for my running backstays.I am in the process of acquiring a little folding trimaran (F27),and it will be the perfect candidate for a dynex standing rig when the ss wire needs replacing..Incidentally and btw, I had galvanised 1x7 forestay with furler over it, and inner forestay with a frequently-used bronze-hanked staysail on Silas Crosby. Surprisingly, rust was not a problem with either stay. Even after 20 years when I disassembled the furler the galv forestay was fine, but I replaced it anyways.cheers, Steve | 31544|31518|2014-12-02 10:02:51|silascrosby|Re: dead eyes shrouds|5/16"| 31545|31518|2014-12-02 14:46:57|theboilerflue|Re: dead eyes shrouds|How does the Dynex respond to hank-on sails paul? I'm thinking it would be great for a removable inner forestay.| 31546|31518|2014-12-02 15:31:31|opuspaul|Re: dead eyes shrouds|I am using 1/4 inch 7 x 19 SS with nicropress crimps for my inner forestay.  I have my own nicropress tool so it is very cheap to do and the wire is readily available.   I know some people use dynex with soft hanks but I am not sure how long they would last.  I may try it in the future but I am a little skeptical about some of the claims.  To many racers and cruisers, to last one or two seasons or to last one passage is considered a long time.   It would be a bit of work to make up the soft hanks.   I am not sure how easy it would be to hank on a sail with the soft hanks when tossing around on a pitching deck in the middle of the night.  http://www.colligomarine.com/products/colligo-value/softie-shackles-and-hanks http://briontoss.com/spartalk/showthread.php?t=1787  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How does the Dynex respond to hank-on sails paul? I'm thinking it would be great for a removable inner forestay.| 31547|31518|2014-12-02 15:32:38|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| 5\16 to hold  a mast how long?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 07:02:51 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   5/16" | 31548|31518|2014-12-02 16:36:09|silascrosby|Re: dead eyes shrouds|47'| 31549|31413|2014-12-02 16:41:25|silascrosby|Re: grease|Brent, I remember Doug of Moonraven suggested avoiding lithium grease in the sterntube. He had some corrosion issues there years ago and wondered if the lithium had contributed to the problem. I have no clue. Might have been corroded , but I am sure it was emotionally stable, with all that lithium around.| 31550|31413|2014-12-02 17:26:51|opuspaul|Re: grease|I know a lot of people use lithium based grease but lithium is a metal and it is very low on the galvanic table so maybe it caused some changes in galvanic action???  FWIW, we didn't use it much on aluminum aircraft.I prefer synthetic greases.  They can be a little bit more money but I find they don't dry out and are compatible with just about anything.  I have seen plastic components get damaged by petroleum based lubricants.| 31551|31413|2014-12-03 12:39:02|mkriley48|Re: grease|use water pump grease as it is made for that application. Line your shaft tube with a piece of pvc pipe bedded in coal tar and you will never have corrosion.mike| 31552|31518|2014-12-04 13:50:07|theboilerflue|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Right, I've seen those rope hanks, they do seem like a bit of a pain to clip on n a hurry, I could see them coming apart while the sails are luffing and tossing around in light winds and swell. I suppose one could always run the rope in a length of plastic hose, something light and flexable so you could still coil it up at the foot of the mast and that would keep the chafe down.| 31553|31538|2014-12-05 19:47:32|brentswain38|Re: My Boat Blog|It would probably be a good idea for you to  invest in a box of 1/8th or 3/32 6011s  to weld your deck beams and stringers to the deck plate, in order to keep the welds small. Big welds there will warp the shit out of your decks.Even a tiny weld has the strength of a half inch bolt, and how many half inch bolts does it take to hold decks to beams. They will never break.If you warp them you should straighten them out before installing them.| 31554|31518|2014-12-05 19:54:14|brentswain38|Re: dead eyes shrouds|1x19 stainless is pretty smooth shiny stuff for an nicopress to get a grip on. They have nowhere near the strength of the wire, and can pull out easy.I'd put at least a couple on, or weld up some poured sockets.| 31555|31518|2014-12-05 20:16:59|Brian Stannard|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Nicopress works better on 7x19 stainless than on 1x19. I would use 2 either way. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:54 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   1x19 stainless is pretty smooth shiny stuff for an nicopress to get a grip on. They have nowhere near the strength of the wire, and can pull out easy.I'd put at least a couple on, or weld up some poured sockets. -- CheersBrian | 31556|31518|2014-12-05 20:32:18|opuspaul|Re: dead eyes shrouds|7 x 19 is much easier to bend around a thimble.| 31557|31557|2014-12-05 22:30:33|jaybeecherbay|"dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting)|Has anyone had experience doing Dustless blasting? Just doing some research on the Dustless sandblasting, and found out that the rust inhibitors added to the water help further clean the steel from contaminates and give you 72 hr protection from oxidization.quote from their site:http://www.dustlessblasting.com/faqs.html#question1What is the Dustless Blaster? The Dustless Blaster works by mixing water and abrasive inside the blast tank. By introducing water we’re drastically increasing mass and energy the machine is putting out, while eliminating dust. Imagine throwing a handful of dry sand, versus throwing a handful of wet sand; which one is going to have a more significant impact on the target? Not only will the wet sand hit the target harder, but it won’t disintegrate and become a cloud of dust like the dry sand will. This is the very simple principle behind Dustless Blasting. The Dustless Blasting system has the following advantages over the old, outdated dry blasting method: Faster  Â­  The Dustless Blaster can strip a car in under 2 hours. Minimal Dust  Â­  The abrasive gets trapped in water and grounded, eliminating the plume of dust. Lower Abrasive Consuption  Â­  The Dustless Blaster uses less media to do more work. Abrasive Flexibility  Â­  The Dustless Blaster can use almost any abrasive that sinks in water. No Warping  Â­  The water prevents friction and won’t warp thin metal like sandblasting will. Safe for Workers  Â­  Recycled bottle glass contains no free silica, the leading cause of silicosis. Less Containment Needed  Â­  In most cases, expensive, time consuming containment doesn't need to be set up. Doesn’t Affect Nearby Workers  Â­  Never sacrifice productivity, other workers can work nearby unaffected. Leaves a Paint Ready Surface  Â­ The rust inhibitor decontaminates the metal leaving a clean, chloride free paint ready surface....seems like a better option than sandblasting.  I just purchased a 36' BS unfinished hull that has sat for about ten years.  The rust has got to a point where blasting will be required.ALSO ....once it is blasted, what is the best primer, and paint do work with?many thanksJay.| 31558|31557|2014-12-05 22:55:30|opuspaul|Re: "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting)|It works.  There are special primers that are very tolerant of rust bloom.   You can buy the nozzles and make your own water blasters quite cheap.   There is a lot on youtube about it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKRVUFZm54  I tried it myself with the tube into a bucket of sand but kept having problem with moisture in the sand causing it to clog.  I think Doug at submarineboat has done a lot with it......check out his excellent site.  He has been on the group in the past.SVSeeker SVSeeker How to build your own; ROV, Submarine, Sailboat and tips on metal working including, Metal Casting, Welding. View on www.submarineboat.com Preview by Yahoo  | 31559|31557|2014-12-05 23:15:08|opuspaul|Re: "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting)|Further to this.....There are two types of sand/water blasting....ones that use a water blaster with dry sand and ones that use an air compressor with wet sand....the one I tried used a water blaster.The paint recommended to me for the water blasted surface was:Altex Altra-lock 577 ...now known as Carboline Rustbond.   Ameron makes one called Amerlock Sealer. The name might have changed since they are now PPG but it is good stuff.These are both very thin penetrating sealers.  A little goes  a long way.   They are great tie-coats and a great general purpose primer which really penetrate for marginal surfaces.  You top coat them with high build epoxies.I ended up dry blasting.  The paint tech told me it was preferable due to the better pattern left in the steel.  If you can't dry blast, I don't think it is that big of a deal with the paint technology available now.   I know a lot of companies only do wet blasting due to environmental restrictions.| 31560|31557|2014-12-07 13:35:05|theboilerflue|Re: "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting)|I imagine the wasser tar stuff would work well for wet blasting as well as it was designed to paint bridges and such on a tide. I remember reading something along the lines of as long as there is no water sitting on the steel the application is good. it's a moisture cured polyurethane.Where'd you find this 10 year old hull? single keel or twin?| 31561|31557|2014-12-07 14:44:14|James Pronk|Re: "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting)|I have a 15 hp pressure washer with a tip that adds sand to the water as it leaves the gun and it works well. I was going to have a go at some big rusty pieces here soon.James From: jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting) Sent: Sat, Dec 6, 2014 3:30:32 AM   Has anyone had experience doing Dustless blasting? Just doing some research on the Dustless sandblasting, and found out that the rust inhibitors added to the water help further clean the steel from contaminates and give you 72 hr protection from oxidization.quote from their site:http://www.dustlessblasting.com/faqs.html#question1What is the Dustless Blaster? The Dustless Blaster works by mixing water and abrasive inside the blast tank. By introducing water we’re drastically increasing mass and energy the machine is putting out, while eliminating dust. Imagine throwing a handful of dry sand, versus throwing a handful of wet sand; which one is going to have a more significant impact on the target? Not only will the wet sand hit the target harder, but it won’t disintegrate and become a cloud of dust like the dry sand will. This is the very simple principle behind Dustless Blasting. The Dustless Blasting system has the following advantages over the old, outdated dry blasting method: Faster  Â­  The Dustless Blaster can strip a car in under 2 hours. Minimal Dust  Â­  The abrasive gets trapped in water and grounded, eliminating the plume of dust. Lower Abrasive Consuption  Â­  The Dustless Blaster uses less media to do more work. Abrasive Flexibility  Â­  The Dustless Blaster can use almost any abrasive that sinks in water. No Warping  Â­  The water prevents friction and won’t warp thin metal like sandblasting will. Safe for Workers  Â­  Recycled bottle glass contains no free silica, the leading cause of silicosis. Less Containment Needed  Â­  In most cases, expensive, time consuming containment doesn't need to be set up. Doesn’t Affect Nearby Workers  Â­  Never sacrifice productivity, other workers can work nearby unaffected. Leaves a Paint Ready Surface  Â­ The rust inhibitor decontaminates the metal leaving a clean, chloride free paint ready surface....seems like a better option than sandblasting.  I just purchased a 36' BS unfinished hull that has sat for about ten years.  The rust has got to a point where blasting will be required.ALSO ....once it is blasted, what is the best primer, and paint do work with?many thanksJay. | 31562|31538|2014-12-08 10:24:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: My Boat Blog|Great, thanks for the tips Brent. I've got the 6011 in hand. I've also got a plasma cutter at my disposal, which I was planning on using to cut the deck plates and a few other items, if not everything, in order to have less distortion, since a lot of my boat is being built from templates. If you have any tips on what else would be wise to cut with plasma, please let me know. I do also have oxy-propane to cut with.| 31563|31518|2014-12-08 18:53:54|mountain man|Re: dead eyes shrouds| are you satisfied with 5\16 or you'd prefer 3\8?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 07:02:51 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: dead eyes shrouds   5/16" | 31564|31538|2014-12-08 21:26:48|brentswain38|Re: My Boat Blog|Plasma greatly reduces distortion, which also makes cabinsides a lot easier to install. It also makes stainless detailing  a lot easier.A friend once bought his deck plate from a scrapyard , for $12 a sheet. We made up the panels, and he put them in his pickup, and drove down to a place which would sandblast  and prime them. Light years easier than waiting until they were in place, and having to blast inside. We pulled his hull together, and he blasted and primed it before puting the decks on, again, light years easier than waiting until it was all together, and having to blast inside.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Great, thanks for the tips Brent. I've got the 6011 in hand. I've also got a plasma cutter at my disposal, which I was planning on using to cut the deck plates and a few other items, if not everything, in order to have less distortion, since a lot of my boat is being built from templates. If you have any tips on what else would be wise to cut with plasma, please let me know. I do also have oxy-propane to cut with.| 31565|31557|2014-12-08 22:15:39|brentswain38|Re: "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting)|Let us know how it works out. I was thinking of something similar.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have a 15 hp pressure washer with a tip that adds sand to the water as it leaves the gun and it works well. I was going to have a go at some big rusty pieces here soon.James From: jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] "dustless" sand blasting (wet sandbalsting) Sent: Sat, Dec 6, 2014 3:30:32 AM  Has anyone had experience doing Dustless blasting? Just doing some research on the Dustless sandblasting, and found out that the rust inhibitors added to the water help further clean the steel from contaminates and give you 72 hr protection from oxidization.quote from their site:http://www.dustlessblasting.com/faqs.html#question1What is the Dustless Blaster?The Dustless Blaster works by mixing water and abrasive inside the blast tank. By introducing water we’re drastically increasing mass and energy the machine is putting out, while eliminating dust. Imagine throwing a handful of dry sand, versus throwing a handful of wet sand; which one is going to have a more significant impact on the target? Not only will the wet sand hit the target harder, but it won’t disintegrate and become a cloud of dust like the dry sand will. This is the very simple principle behind Dustless Blasting. The Dustless Blasting system has the following advantages over the old, outdated dry blasting method: Faster  ­  The Dustless Blaster can strip a car in under 2 hours.Minimal Dust  ­  The abrasive gets trapped in water and grounded, eliminating the plume of dust.Lower Abrasive Consuption  ­  The Dustless Blaster uses less media to do more work.Abrasive Flexibility  ­  The Dustless Blaster can use almost any abrasive that sinks in water.No Warping  ­  The water prevents friction and won’t warp thin metal like sandblasting will.Safe for Workers  ­  Recycled bottle glass contains no free silica, the leading cause of silicosis.Less Containment Needed  ­  In most cases, expensive, time consuming containment doesn't need to be set up.Doesn’t Affect Nearby Workers  ­  Never sacrifice productivity, other workers can work nearby unaffected.Leaves a Paint Ready Surface  ­ The rust inhibitor decontaminates the metal leaving a clean, chloride free paint ready surface....seems like a better option than sandblasting.  I just purchased a 36' BS unfinished hull that has sat for about ten years.  The rust has got to a point where blasting will be required.ALSO ....once it is blasted, what is the best primer, and paint do work with?many thanksJay.| 31566|31518|2014-12-08 22:21:58|brentswain38|Re: dead eyes shrouds|Yes but such thin strands lose their strength more quickly  when they rust. Thicker strands last longer, and are thus far more forgiving.. Pre bending the 1x7, 90 degrees where they will leave the thimble,  before wraping them around the thimble, works well.| 31567|31413|2014-12-08 22:29:25|brentswain38|Re: grease|I have always used the cheapo Cambodian Tire grease, and have had no problems with it. I have my grease gun permanently mounted , and hooked up with a 1/8th inch pipe thread in the stern tube. Standard 1/8th inch brass pipe couplers let you hook grease hoses together. Some, without the grease have had corrosion problems in the stern tube, with stainless stern tubes, due to partial oxygen starvation. Grease should solve that problem, by eliminating all oxygen. I have been using mild steel for stern tubes lately, for that reason.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent, I remember Doug of Moonraven suggested avoiding lithium grease in the sterntube. He had some corrosion issues there years ago and wondered if the lithium had contributed to the problem. I have no clue. Might have been corroded , but I am sure it was emotionally stable, with all that lithium around.| 31568|31413|2014-12-09 00:19:54|Matt Malone|Removing Silicon| A while back, someone posted about how impossible it is to get rid of silicon.  Well, I have a potential solution, and something that will potentially make the problem much worse.   I spilled a bottle of Biosilk leave-in hair conditioner on the side of the tub.  After sitting a day, it lifted the bathroom-quality silicon seal around the tub.   I looked at the label to see what was in it and the first two ingredients are cyclopentasiloxane and cycloquadrasiloxane.  It costs $40/liter as a hair conditioner and is slick as anything.  I had to try 3 times to get a tight enough grip on the door knob of the bathroom to get out.   I am told that lestoil removes it, I do not know how thoroughly.   If I had some silicon stuck to glass I would certainly consider trying it, followed up with lestoil and then dish soap and water to get rid of the lestoil.   I have no idea if this will get silicon off of fibreglass without making a worse mess, but I sure would not try it on any glass with exposed fibres like a cut edge, like around port holes without doing a test piece.  It might slip in between the plastic and glass fibres and "rot" the fibreglass.Matt | 31569|31569|2014-12-10 23:20:43|aguysailing|shore power|I am docked at Port Alberni as there is no anchoring option.  The dock has power both 20 and 30 amp.  My boat is not wired for shore power having 12 volt wiring only.  There is an adapter available that plugs into these outlets which will allow a regular extension cord.  I want to run an extension chord from my boat to the 20 amp outlet (by plugging into the adapter at the power box).  Aboard, my needs are just to run my laptop and a lamp.  Just wondering if I need some monster (10 ga) chord or will my 50' 16 ga be ok?   .... thanks| 31570|31569|2014-12-11 01:19:23|Victor Giraud|Re: shore power| #16 should be able to give you 1000 watts, just be careful about circulating grounds.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 8:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] shore power     I am docked at Port Alberni as there is no anchoring option.  The dock has power both 20 and 30 amp.  My boat is not wired for shore power having 12 volt wiring only.  There is an adapter available that plugs into these outlets which will allow a regular extension cord.  I want to run an extension chord from my boat to the 20 amp outlet (by plugging into the adapter at the power box).  Aboard, my needs are just to run my laptop and a lamp.  Just wondering if I need some monster (10 ga) chord or will my 50' 16 ga be ok?   .... thanks| 31571|31569|2014-12-11 08:39:51|bert andjan|Re: shore power|Could you folks explain "circulating grounds"?  What are the dangers of pluggin' into shore power with a metal boat?Thanks, Bert| 31572|31569|2014-12-11 13:03:32|Matt Malone|Re: shore power| Circulating grounds is a term that covers a lot of potential problems.  The symptom of all of them is, your boat might dissolve.  There are a number of possible problems.  A 120V outlet has 3 wires, 120V AC hot, neutral return and ground.   Ground should be connected to ground at the marina but not necessarily near your boat.   Neutral return should be connected to ground at the generating station or transformer station.  It should also be connected to the metal box of the electrical panel in the marina, and the electrical panel should in turn be connected to the ground rod in the marina, which is not necessarily near your boat.  120V AC hot should be at 120Volts alternating current (AC) Root Mean Square (RMS), meaning 170V peak to groundThere are any number of problems but lets start with ones that have nothing to do with an error in wiring in the marina.   The ocean water around your boat may not be the same potential as the ground where the ground rod for the marina is.  This can set up a galvanic (metal consuming) cell where your boat is dissolved.   The ocean water potential can be affected by other boats that have bad electrical systems bleeding electricity into the water.   The electrical potential of the water around your boat might not be the same all around the boat, so, current might both flow into your hull at one spot and out back into the water at another.Be careful of steel mooring cables, they can be a conductor.        The ground in the marina might not be connected to a ground rod, it might be connected to something that is assumed to have good contact with the sea water.   If the local neutral return may not be at the same potential as the local ground.  It is not unusual to find a few volts difference.   This means the electrical system of the marina is conducting current from the ground at the marina back to the ground at the transformer station or generating station.  This can set up a galvanic cell and digest whatever it is that is in contact with the ground.   Once it is eaten away, perhaps at ground-water level in the ground, that few volts will look for a path to ground everywhere else.   Again a galvanic cell can be set up and digest your boat.   The neutral might be floating in the marina.  This happens when a connection goes bad.   Typically commercial installations will be run from 208V delta (a voltage measurement between phases, not relative to neutral) 3-phase AC which means, for each phase, the potential between the phase and the neutral is 120V.   The three 120V phases are 120 degrees out of phase in their timing.  House current is 240V split phase, or 2 phases of 120V 180 degrees out of phase, which means, opposite in polarity at any given moment in time.   In either case, if the connection between the neutral and the panel or in the panel is bad, all of the loads downstream of the discontinuity are talking power on the phases and returning it through the neutral return.   Because there is no actual return, these loads then balance out and share the current across the neutral return.  If one phase has a huge load on it and the other phase(s) have a smaller load, the voltage of the neutral return wire will change relative to ground.   A symptom of this is if one plugs in a toaster or kettle, half of the incandescent lights in the house will go dim, the other half will go bright.  If you ever see this, you know pretty much for certain there is a floating neutral.   In a marina, if you turn on something juicy and look out the port and see the lights in half the boats go dimmer and half go brighter, there is a floating neutral.   Whenever there is a potential between the neutral and the ocean water, there is the potential to set up a galvanic cell and digest your boat.   When something gets digested it is not always the hull.  Sometimes it is something more hidden and single-point failure, like the rudder stock or prop shaft, or the keel bolts.     If your loads are small then your easiest solution might be an isolation transformer.   It changes 120V from the marina which may have ground-reference problems into 120V inside your boat that has no reference to the water or other boats.  Ground the box it is in to marina power but not the hull.  There is therefore no connection from the metal of your boat to the marina.  Having only one connection, via ocean water, there is far less chance of a galvanic cell being created.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformerSays in part: Supplying power to ships Metal boats are subject to corrosion if they use earthed power from shore when moored, due to galvanic currents that flow through the water between shore earth and the hull. This can be avoided by using an isolation transformer with the primary and case connected to shore earth, and the secondary "floating".[4] A metal safety screen between primary and secondary is connected to shore earth; in the event of a fault current in the primary (due, e.g., to insulation breakdown) it will cause the fault current to return and trip a shore-based circuit breaker rather than making the hull live.Small isolation transformers can often be purchased in electronics surplus shops.  Electronic surplus shops are an important supply location for a lot of odd bits and it is worth finding a good one locally.  Do not carry too much money into an electronic surplus shop or they will take more of your money and fill your bags with things you were sure you could find a use for at the time.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:39:49 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   Could you folks explain "circulating grounds"?  What are the dangers of pluggin' into shore power with a metal boat?Thanks, Bert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformerSupplying power to ships Metal boats are subject to corrosion if they use earthed power from shore when moored, due to galvanic currents that flow through the water between shore earth and the hull. This can be avoided by using an isolation transformer with the primary and case connected to shore earth, and the secondary "floating".[4] A metal safety screen between primary and secondary is connected to shore earth; in the event of a fault current in the primary (due, e.g., to insulation breakdown) it will cause the fault current to return and trip a shore-based circuit breaker rather than making the hull live. | 31573|31569|2014-12-11 15:28:56|aguysailing|Re: shore power|Hmmm...  well, just wanted to know if I could plug my 16 awg extension cord into their 20 amp box using an adapter to run my lamp and computer and not fry anything. | 31574|30737|2014-12-11 16:10:50|jonhackett1958|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Sorry for the delay.I'll probably wait till mid spring to list her. I need to touch up some paint here and there. Otherwise, she's ready to sail. If you can't wait that long, email me at jonhackett@.... Include a phone number. So much more can be accomplished in a ten minute phone call.She's lying in Seattle.| 31575|31569|2014-12-11 16:21:52|Victor Giraud|Re: shore power| If you run the cord on the boat and plug your laptop and lamp into the cord, keeping grounds isolated, there should be no problem.  Even using a battery charger, isolated from the steel should be OK. Maybe hang it. The big thing is to prevent the hot, neutral or ground from land contacting the steel of your boat. I would use a GFCI where you plug in.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power     Hmmm...  well, just wanted to know if I could plug my 16 awg extension cord into their 20 amp box using an adapter to run my lamp and computer and not fry anything. | 31576|30737|2014-12-11 16:28:29|kingsknight4life|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|It doesn't show the last part of your email address. What comes after the "@"?| 31577|31569|2014-12-11 16:33:11|mountain man|Re: shore power| what do you mean by ''isolated''?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:21:55 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   If you run the cord on the boat and plug your laptop and lamp into the cord, keeping grounds isolated, there should be no problem.  Even using a battery charger, isolated from the steel should be OK. Maybe hang it. The big thing is to prevent the hot, neutral or ground from land contacting the steel of your boat. I would use a GFCI where you plug in.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power     Hmmm...  well, just wanted to know if I could plug my 16 awg extension cord into their 20 amp box using an adapter to run my lamp and computer and not fry anything. | 31578|30737|2014-12-11 16:37:49|jonhackett1958|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|PM me| 31579|31569|2014-12-11 17:15:31|Victor Giraud|Re: shore power| OK : Isolation is the way you keep your boat separate from shore based power systems. It could be a type of electrical insulation, like plastic, or free air, like on the power lines  For your laptop with it’s plug in power supply, there should be no problems. The cord and power supply are covered in plastic, so there is no chance any part touching the steel of the boat.   Now with the lamp, as I don’t know what you are using, eg. a table lamp, a trouble lamp, or some type of lamp that is installed permanently in the boat, or it could be a lamp powered from you batteries.  Some lamps, made of metal, use a ground, this is where problems could arise, as then the metal  of the lamp could touch the boat, causing current to flow, through the ground wire, between your boat and the  shore through the water and the ground connection, this will eat the zincs away. When they are gone then the boat starts to get eaten.  It can take awhile but, you want to keep as much boat as possible.   If you want to use a battery charger, just make sure that no metallic part of the charger touches the boat.   If you are still having problems, call a marine electrician.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 1:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power     what do you mean by ''isolated''? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:21:55 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power    If you run the cord on the boat and plug your laptop and lamp into the cord, keeping grounds isolated, there should be no problem.  Even using a battery charger, isolated from the steel should be OK. Maybe hang it. The big thing is to prevent the hot, neutral or ground from land contacting the steel of your boat. I would use a GFCI where you plug in.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power     Hmmm...  well, just wanted to know if I could plug my 16 awg extension cord into their 20 amp box using an adapter to run my lamp and computer and not fry anything.   | 31580|31569|2014-12-11 17:18:58|mountain man|Re: shore power| ok, I get itTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:15:35 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   OK : Isolation is the way you keep your boat separate from shore based power systems. It could be a type of electrical insulation, like plastic, or free air, like on the power lines  For your laptop with it’s plug in power supply, there should be no problems. The cord and power supply are covered in plastic, so there is no chance any part touching the steel of the boat.   Now with the lamp, as I don’t know what you are using, eg. a table lamp, a trouble lamp, or some type of lamp that is installed permanently in the boat, or it could be a lamp powered from you batteries.  Some lamps, made of metal, use a ground, this is where problems could arise, as then the metal  of the lamp could touch the boat, causing current to flow, through the ground wire, between your boat and the  shore through the water and the ground connection, this will eat the zincs away. When they are gone then the boat starts to get eaten.  It can take awhile but, you want to keep as much boat as possible.   If you want to use a battery charger, just make sure that no metallic part of the charger touches the boat.   If you are still having problems, call a marine electrician.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 1:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power     what do you mean by ''isolated''? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:21:55 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power    If you run the cord on the boat and plug your laptop and lamp into the cord, keeping grounds isolated, there should be no problem.  Even using a battery charger, isolated from the steel should be OK. Maybe hang it. The big thing is to prevent the hot, neutral or ground from land contacting the steel of your boat. I would use a GFCI where you plug in.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power     Hmmm...  well, just wanted to know if I could plug my 16 awg extension cord into their 20 amp box using an adapter to run my lamp and computer and not fry anything.   | 31581|31413|2014-12-11 20:36:35|brentswain38|Re: Removing Silicon|Laquer thinner works .| 31582|31538|2014-12-11 20:41:02|brentswain38|Re: My Boat Blog|While is easy to blast the outside after assembly , blasting any of the inside is much easier before assembly. Getting the insides of the top half of the keels blasted and primed before assembling them would save a you a nightmare of a job.| 31583|31569|2014-12-11 22:41:31|Brian Stannard|Re: shore power|Best way to wire a steel (or aluminum) boat is to make sure there is no ground connection to the hull. This means a totally floating system. Pumps, chargers, etc are often case grounded for safety so they have to be isolated from the metal hull - do this by attaching them to something inert and attaching it to the hull. Plastic works well. The engine does need a ground connection but the solution here is to wire the negative through a solenoid that is activated by the ignition. When the engine ignition is off there is no connection to the engine. The positive should be switched off when the engine is not in use.The DC panel as well as the AC panel should have double pole breakers for all circuits. This also allows easy troubleshooting if there is an issue.The alternative for AC as Matt posted is a good isolation transformer which means that there is not a physical connection between the boat's AC wiring and the shorepower including the ground connection. A good marine isolation transformer is about $1000 or more. On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Circulating grounds is a term that covers a lot of potential problems.  The symptom of all of them is, your boat might dissolve.  There are a number of possible problems.  A 120V outlet has 3 wires, 120V AC hot, neutral return and ground.   Ground should be connected to ground at the marina but not necessarily near your boat.   Neutral return should be connected to ground at the generating station or transformer station.  It should also be connected to the metal box of the electrical panel in the marina, and the electrical panel should in turn be connected to the ground rod in the marina, which is not necessarily near your boat.  120V AC hot should be at 120Volts alternating current (AC) Root Mean Square (RMS), meaning 170V peak to groundThere are any number of problems but lets start with ones that have nothing to do with an error in wiring in the marina.   The ocean water around your boat may not be the same potential as the ground where the ground rod for the marina is.  This can set up a galvanic (metal consuming) cell where your boat is dissolved.   The ocean water potential can be affected by other boats that have bad electrical systems bleeding electricity into the water.   The electrical potential of the water around your boat might not be the same all around the boat, so, current might both flow into your hull at one spot and out back into the water at another.Be careful of steel mooring cables, they can be a conductor.        The ground in the marina might not be connected to a ground rod, it might be connected to something that is assumed to have good contact with the sea water.   If the local neutral return may not be at the same potential as the local ground.  It is not unusual to find a few volts difference.   This means the electrical system of the marina is conducting current from the ground at the marina back to the ground at the transformer station or generating station.  This can set up a galvanic cell and digest whatever it is that is in contact with the ground.   Once it is eaten away, perhaps at ground-water level in the ground, that few volts will look for a path to ground everywhere else.   Again a galvanic cell can be set up and digest your boat.   The neutral might be floating in the marina.  This happens when a connection goes bad.   Typically commercial installations will be run from 208V delta (a voltage measurement between phases, not relative to neutral) 3-phase AC which means, for each phase, the potential between the phase and the neutral is 120V.   The three 120V phases are 120 degrees out of phase in their timing.  House current is 240V split phase, or 2 phases of 120V 180 degrees out of phase, which means, opposite in polarity at any given moment in time.   In either case, if the connection between the neutral and the panel or in the panel is bad, all of the loads downstream of the discontinuity are talking power on the phases and returning it through the neutral return.   Because there is no actual return, these loads then balance out and share the current across the neutral return.  If one phase has a huge load on it and the other phase(s) have a smaller load, the voltage of the neutral return wire will change relative to ground.   A symptom of this is if one plugs in a toaster or kettle, half of the incandescent lights in the house will go dim, the other half will go bright.  If you ever see this, you know pretty much for certain there is a floating neutral.   In a marina, if you turn on something juicy and look out the port and see the lights in half the boats go dimmer and half go brighter, there is a floating neutral.   Whenever there is a potential between the neutral and the ocean water, there is the potential to set up a galvanic cell and digest your boat.   When something gets digested it is not always the hull.  Sometimes it is something more hidden and single-point failure, like the rudder stock or prop shaft, or the keel bolts.     If your loads are small then your easiest solution might be an isolation transformer.   It changes 120V from the marina which may have ground-reference problems into 120V inside your boat that has no reference to the water or other boats.  Ground the box it is in to marina power but not the hull.  There is therefore no connection from the metal of your boat to the marina.  Having only one connection, via ocean water, there is far less chance of a galvanic cell being created.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformerSays in part:Supplying power to ships Metal boats are subject to corrosion if they use earthed power from shore when moored, due to galvanic currents that flow through the water between shore earth and the hull. This can be avoided by using an isolation transformer with the primary and case connected to shore earth, and the secondary "floating".[4] A metal safety screen between primary and secondary is connected to shore earth; in the event of a fault current in the primary (due, e.g., to insulation breakdown) it will cause the fault current to return and trip a shore-based circuit breaker rather than making the hull live.Small isolation transformers can often be purchased in electronics surplus shops.  Electronic surplus shops are an important supply location for a lot of odd bits and it is worth finding a good one locally.  Do not carry too much money into an electronic surplus shop or they will take more of your money and fill your bags with things you were sure you could find a use for at the time.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:39:49 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   Could you folks explain "circulating grounds"?  What are the dangers of pluggin' into shore power with a metal boat?Thanks, Bert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformerSupplying power to ships Metal boats are subject to corrosion if they use earthed power from shore when moored, due to galvanic currents that flow through the water between shore earth and the hull. This can be avoided by using an isolation transformer with the primary and case connected to shore earth, and the secondary "floating".[4] A metal safety screen between primary and secondary is connected to shore earth; in the event of a fault current in the primary (due, e.g., to insulation breakdown) it will cause the fault current to return and trip a shore-based circuit breaker rather than making the hull live. -- CheersBrian | 31584|31413|2014-12-11 22:44:31|Brian Stannard|Re: Removing Silicon|Not totally, leaves some residue which nothing will stick to, not even new silicone. Wet the area and you will find that the area the silicone was in is still slippery compared to the surrounding area. I know of no effective way to totally remove silicone except sandpaper.  On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 5:36 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Laquer thinner works . -- CheersBrian | 31585|31569|2014-12-11 23:01:27|Matt Malone|Re: shore power| >A good marine isolation transformer is about $1000 or more. Wow... that is a lot more than I expected.   At what KVA / Amperage for a 120V circuit ?  Matt | 31586|31569|2014-12-12 03:29:19|Brian Stannard|Re: shore power|The Charles is here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289977&id=15541530 amps for $935 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   >A good marine isolation transformer is about $1000 or more.Wow... that is a lot more than I expected.   At what KVA / Amperage for a 120V circuit ?  Matt -- CheersBrian | 31587|31569|2014-12-12 10:29:10|Matt Malone|Re: shore power| At first I thought $1,000 was a lot, but, that is a 3,600 Watt isolation transformer.  That is enough to run the appliances one would find on a cruising boat, maybe not all simultaneously but in any ordinary combination.   I am used to seeing 300ish Watt isolation transformers in electronic surplus stores and my recollection is they go for $40-$100.I am pretty sure if one checks the wattage on the laptop and light, they will add to something less than 300 Watts.   Just running the extension cord into the boat and connecting it only to the laptop and light and keeping it isolated from the hull could work.   There are lots of things one can do with extension cords that are not good.   Using two cords, with the junction between the two cords laying on the deck is not well isolated if it rains.  Pinching the cord in a hatch may threaten to break isolation.  Regular extension cords, even good ones, I have seen the connectors go bad in a short time in a salty environment -- a public works yard with a salt-dome.   There is probably a salt-water-marine-rated extension cord, and it probably looks a lot like my shore power cable and probably costs as much too.  I have never actually used the shore power cable with that boat.  I have used a very good quality outdoor contractor's cord in fresh water and made sure to keep it out of the water and out of the bilge in a fibreglass boat.   Because I have never used my proper shore power cable with that boat, I have never troubled myself to absolutely determine what that unidentified electrical box is beyond the bulkhead of one of my quarterberth bunks is.  It is about the size of a toaster / large battery charger.  When I rewired the boat, I just left it out of the circuit.  It is in the most difficult place to access in the boat, and frankly, I have never tried very hard to get to it.  From the glimpses I have gotten of it, I had always assumed it was a 120V AC to 12 VDC battery charger / power converter, but, there is the possibility that it is an isolation transformer instead or also.   I do have one 120V plug in the boat that I have never used and also left out of the circuit when I was rewiring that boat.   Now that there is the possibility that box is worth a good fraction of $1,000, I will take a better look and check to see if it works.   In my other boat, that box is in a far more accessible location and I know for sure it is a 120V AC to 12 VDC battery charger / power converter, but, there is the possibility that it is an isolation transformer also.  I will take a better look at it and when I am rewiring that boat, I will make sure to include it in the circuit.    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:29:15 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   The Charles is here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289977&id=15541530 amps for $935 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   >A good marine isolation transformer is about $1000 or more.Wow... that is a lot more than I expected.   At what KVA / Amperage for a 120V circuit ?  Matt -- CheersBrian | 31588|31569|2014-12-12 11:24:28|Darren Bos|Re: shore power| The one point that has not been said explicitly is that if you use an extension cord there is the possibility that if the insulation gets damaged to the live wire, there is the potential to create a shock hazard with a live hull.  Since extension cords are often run through ports or hatches, where they can get pinched, or on deck where they can be stepped on, this scenario is not outside the possible.  If you were to touch the live hull and ground, then you become part of the circuit.  This could happen as you step aboard the boat and have one foot on the wet dock and a hand grabbing a metal lifeline.    The other hazard is that if an appliance you plug in gets a fault and becomes energized on its case, then there is a potential fault circuit between it you and the hull.  Using "double insulated" appliances reduces this risk.  Many people have done this and been fine, but be aware and treat the extension cord like it is something delicate, if it is an older cord look it over for nicks before you plug in. Darren On 14-12-12 07:26 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   At first I thought $1,000 was a lot, but, that is a 3,600 Watt isolation transformer.  That is enough to run the appliances one would find on a cruising boat, maybe not all simultaneously but in any ordinary combination.   I am used to seeing 300ish Watt isolation transformers in electronic surplus stores and my recollection is they go for $40-$100. I am pretty sure if one checks the wattage on the laptop and light, they will add to something less than 300 Watts.   Just running the extension cord into the boat and connecting it only to the laptop and light and keeping it isolated from the hull could work.   There are lots of things one can do with extension cords that are not good.   Using two cords, with the junction between the two cords laying on the deck is not well isolated if it rains.  Pinching the cord in a hatch may threaten to break isolation.  Regular extension cords, even good ones, I have seen the connectors go bad in a short time in a salty environment -- a public works yard with a salt-dome.   There is probably a salt-water-marine-rated extension cord, and it probably looks a lot like my shore power cable and probably costs as much too.  I have never actually used the shore power cable with that boat.  I have used a very good quality outdoor contractor's cord in fresh water and made sure to keep it out of the water and out of the bilge in a fibreglass boat.   Because I have never used my proper shore power cable with that boat, I have never troubled myself to absolutely determine what that unidentified electrical box is beyond the bulkhead of one of my quarterberth bunks is.  It is about the size of a toaster / large battery charger.  When I rewired the boat, I just left it out of the circuit.  It is in the most difficult place to access in the boat, and frankly, I have never tried very hard to get t o it.  From the glimpses I have gotten of it, I had always assumed it was a 120V AC to 12 VDC battery charger / power converter, but, there is the possibility that it is an isolation transformer instead or also.   I do have one 120V plug in the boat that I have never used and also left out of the circuit when I was rewiring that boat.   Now that there is the possibility that box is worth a good fraction of $1,000, I will take a better look and check to see if it works.   In my other boat, that box is in a far more accessible location and I know for sure it is a 120V AC to 12 VDC battery charger / power converter, but, there is the possibility that it is an isolation transformer also.  I will take a better look at it and when I am rewiring that boat, I will make sure to include it in the circuit.    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:29:15 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   The Charles is here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289977&id=155415 30 amps for $935 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   >A good marine isolation transformer is about $1000 or more. Wow... that is a lot more than I expected.   At what KVA / Amperage for a 120V circuit ?  Matt -- Cheers Brian | 31589|31569|2014-12-12 12:24:14|Brian Stannard|Re: shore power|In this case where there is no shorepower installed on the boat I would use an extension cord after checking it. To eliminate pinching running it through a ventilator might be a good idea. If it has to go through a hatch wrap it with a cloth where it enters. On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The one point that has not been said explicitly is that if you use an extension cord there is the possibility that if the insulation gets damaged to the live wire, there is the potential to create a shock hazard with a live hull.  Since extension cords are often run through ports or hatches, where they can get pinched, or on deck where they can be stepped on, this scenario is not outside the possible.  If you were to touch the live hull and ground, then you become part of the circuit.  This could happen as you step aboard the boat and have one foot on the wet dock and a hand grabbing a metal lifeline.    The other hazard is that if an appliance you plug in gets a fault and becomes energized on its case, then there is a potential fault circuit between it you and the hull.  Using "double insulated" appliances reduces this risk.  Many people have done this and been fine, but be aware and treat the extension cord like it is something delicate, if it is an older cord look it over for nicks before you plug in. Darren On 14-12-12 07:26 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   At first I thought $1,000 was a lot, but, that is a 3,600 Watt isolation transformer.  That is enough to run the appliances one would find on a cruising boat, maybe not all simultaneously but in any ordinary combination.   I am used to seeing 300ish Watt isolation transformers in electronic surplus stores and my recollection is they go for $40-$100. I am pretty sure if one checks the wattage on the laptop and light, they will add to something less than 300 Watts.   Just running the extension cord into the boat and connecting it only to the laptop and light and keeping it isolated from the hull could work.   There are lots of things one can do with extension cords that are not good.   Using two cords, with the junction between the two cords laying on the deck is not well isolated if it rains.  Pinching the cord in a hatch may threaten to break isolation.  Regular extension cords, even good ones, I have seen the connectors go bad in a short time in a salty environment -- a public works yard with a salt-dome.   There is probably a salt-water-marine-rated extension cord, and it probably looks a lot like my shore power cable and probably costs as much too.  I have never actually used the shore power cable with that boat.  I have used a very good quality outdoor contractor's cord in fresh water and made sure to keep it out of the water and out of the bilge in a fibreglass boat.   Because I have never used my proper shore power cable with that boat, I have never troubled myself to absolutely determine what that unidentified electrical box is beyond the bulkhead of one of my quarterberth bunks is.  It is about the size of a toaster / large battery charger.  When I rewired the boat, I just left it out of the circuit.  It is in the most difficult place to access in the boat, and frankly, I have never tried very hard to get t o it.  From the glimpses I have gotten of it, I had always assumed it was a 120V AC to 12 VDC battery charger / power converter, but, there is the possibility that it is an isolation transformer instead or also.   I do have one 120V plug in the boat that I have never used and also left out of the circuit when I was rewiring that boat.   Now that there is the possibility that box is worth a good fraction of $1,000, I will take a better look and check to see if it works.   In my other boat, that box is in a far more accessible location and I know for sure it is a 120V AC to 12 VDC battery charger / power converter, but, there is the possibility that it is an isolation transformer also.  I will take a better look at it and when I am rewiring that boat, I will make sure to include it in the circuit.    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:29:15 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   The Charles is here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289977&id=155415 30 amps for $935 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   >A good marine isolation transformer is about $1000 or more. Wow... that is a lot more than I expected.   At what KVA / Amperage for a 120V circuit ?  Matt -- Cheers Brian -- CheersBrian | 31590|31569|2014-12-12 14:32:58|James Pronk|Re: shore power|Yes you can. Hi GaryI have a couple of plug in adaptors that I have used in the past when I needed power to run a saw or drill. Male 30 amp plug, short length of cord and then a 15 amp female plug wired into it, works great.Hope your well,James from Peterborough. From: aguysailing@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: shore power Sent: Thu, Dec 11, 2014 8:28:55 PM   Hmmm...  well, just wanted to know if I could plug my 16 awg extension cord into their 20 amp box using an adapter to run my lamp and computer and not fry anything.  | 31591|31569|2014-12-12 17:44:53|haidan|Re: shore power|Yes just run your extension cord into your boat. Make a small pigtail adaptor to go from twenty or thirty amps to fifteen amp plug small enough to hide inside the power box. Marinas may not like seeing it. Don't attach a damn wire to your boat in any way no ground no neutral return, nothing. Just make sure not to plug too much stuff into so as you don't melt the extension cord, they usually only good for fifteen amps. | 31592|31569|2014-12-12 17:57:52|Matt Malone|Re: shore power| >Just make sure not to plug too much stuff into >so as you don't melt the extension cord, they >usually only good for fifteen amps. Yet another way an extension cord can mess up.  I have seen exactly that happen, a pigtail and extension cord and a fire.   There is a difference between what is possible, what I have risked, and what is a good idea to recommend someone else do.   If someone has to ask the question, they should not be doing it, and other people should not be assuring them they can do it each giving a different caution.      MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:44:43 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: shore power   Yes just run your extension cord into your boat. Make a small pigtail adaptor to go from twenty or thirty amps to fifteen amp plug small enough to hide inside the power box. Marinas may not like seeing it. Don't attach a damn wire to your boat in any way no ground no neutral return, nothing. Just make sure not to plug too much stuff into so as you don't melt the extension cord, they usually only good for fifteen amps. | 31593|31569|2014-12-13 15:57:52|aguysailing|Re: shore power|Hello James... thanks for your advice.   Aside from greedy assholes who want to log, fish and contaminate this jewel of a coast... all is well.  I sure miss Peterborough though (just being polite here) and must google up snow drift just as a reminder.  Presently docked (1st time in 6 years) at Port Alberni as there is no anchorage at the end of this inlet.  Keep well... regards to your family...was a pleasure meeting up with you a while back.Gary on SV DarMi 36' bilge keeler| 31594|30737|2014-12-16 00:02:12|jonhackett1958|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Give me a call in Seattle at 206-890-9916| 31595|30737|2014-12-16 00:08:07|jonhackett1958|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Hey Brent!She's still for sale. I decided to get another year out of her before selling. I'm thinking 50K would be a decent enough price to ask. I can be reached at 1-206-890-9916jonhackett@...| 31596|30737|2014-12-16 08:05:13|CNC 6-Axis Designs|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|There are no real, practical rules, imo. Labour rates 0. Materials at 20-50  % of cost, depending on age. Exceptional documentation, fit finish and market may change this a lot; by upto and over 100%. On May 1, 2014 1:52 AM, wrote:   I'll be listing my Brent Swain 36 footer in a few weeks. I'll include a thorough inventoryThere are some photos in the albums under the title "Tortue"In the meantime, I'm looking for advice on determining an asking price.While much depends on equipment, how is the labor aspect calculated?Are there any recent sales I can refer to?Any help would be appreciated.Alex and Brent have both been aboard my boat. | 31597|30737|2014-12-16 10:14:03|James Pronk|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Basic Brent Swain 36' should start at about $40 000 to $50 000 from what I've worked out and that would be with minimal gear. I'm just saying, if I was to build a 36' Brent Swain, painted, spray foamed and with a basic interior, I could do it for that.James From: CNC 6-Axis Designs gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] ; To: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue" Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 1:05:11 PM   There are no real, practical rules, imo. Labour rates 0. Materials at 20-50  % of cost, depending on age. Exceptional documentation, fit finish and market may change this a lot; by upto and over 100%. On May 1, 2014 1:52 AM, wrote:   I'll be listing my Brent Swain 36 footer in a few weeks. I'll include a thorough inventoryThere are some photos in the albums under the title "Tortue"In the meantime, I'm looking for advice on determining an asking price.While much depends on equipment, how is the labor aspect calculated?Are there any recent sales I can refer to?Any help would be appreciated.Alex and Brent have both been aboard my boat. | 31598|30737|2014-12-16 10:32:43|Hannu Venermo|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"| This is why self-built boats have little resale value. Costs go up or down 200-400%, or 2-4 times, depending on how and what was done. Variation is easily 8-fold, from low to high. Some value: -well done gear suited for purpose. That would be me. This is about 1% of builders, and 1% of users, or less. Others prefer: -cheap costs -"name brand" systems from "marine store" -great looks, fit and finish -least work and bother Some examples: Foaming may cost 8000€ (11.000USD) down to 2000 USD. Difference is 5-fold. Wiring may cost 10.000 $ (or under 500). Variation is 20-times, or 2000%. Examples:re wiring. Tinned marine grade rated wiring, done with insulated terminals with heat shrink and glue inside, meant for marine installations. Running in conduits, fixed every n cm per code. High and low voltage qoing in separate conduits, per code. With color coded and numbered wires, and a wiring schematic, 100% correct at end of install. Another example: The cost variation is 30-fold, for example, for a "bilge pump", in cost/capacity. The best, cheapest, one is an industrial excavation pump, hazardous duty. This can live inside junk water for a long time, work 24x7, and spit out large chunks of gravel and crap while working, with no damage. Starting around 500-1000€, for 220 or 240 V. Generally brand name does not mean "good", in the hobby-marine sector. It mostly means overpriced, polished, good looking stuff that is not fit for purpose. As most stuff like that is generally not used, this does not matter, overall. On 16/12/2014 16:14, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: Basic Brent Swain 36' should start at about $40 000 to $50 000 from what I've worked out and that would be with minimal gear. I'm just saying, if I was to build a 36' Brent Swain, painted, spray foamed and with a basic interior, I could do it for that. James -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31599|30737|2014-12-16 13:34:21|opuspaul|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|It is very hard to sell a boat now.  I have seen listings well over 3 years old....the sellers never drop the price to meet the market.   In the meantime they pay maintenance and marina fees while the boat sits and goes nowhere.  There has been an origami boat for sale in NZ for probably 3 years.  He is asking too much for what many would think is a rough boat.http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/displayboat.php?list_code=8907Boat owners often have too much personally invested in their "baby" and aren't realistic when it comes to selling.   The amount of time and money you spent building really means nothing.   It is only the result that matters.   You really need to pretend you are a new buyer and go looking at boats and then ask yourself what you would pay for your boat.   Try to take the emotion out of it.  Origami boats have a fairly unique and narrow but loyal customer base.   Sometimes it is just a matter of luck and waiting for the right person to come along. Two boats of the exact same model may go for widely different prices depending on how well they were maintained and the gear they have on board.  The prices also vary a lot depending on location.   Sites like yachtworld.com or sailboatlistings.com may be a good place to start to get an idea about the market.  Keep in mind that the boats are often a lot worse in person and the final selling prices are often 20 to 30% lower than advertised.Good luck, Paul| 31600|30737|2014-12-16 13:55:03|James Pronk|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Does the chain drop straight down from the winless to the barrel that is sitting in the middle of the cabin? From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue" Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 6:34:20 PM   It is very hard to sell a boat now.  I have seen listings well over 3 years old....the sellers never drop the price to meet the market.   In the meantime they pay maintenance and marina fees while the boat sits and goes nowhere.  There has been an origami boat for sale in NZ for probably 3 years.  He is asking too much for what many would think is a rough boat.http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/displayboat.php?list_code=8907Boat owners often have too much personally invested in their "baby" and aren't realistic when it comes to selling.   The amount of time and money you spent building really means nothing.   It is only the result that matters.   You really need to pretend you are a new buyer and go looking at boats and then ask yourself what you would pay for your boat.   Try to take the emotion out of it.  Origami boats have a fairly unique and narrow but loyal customer base.   Sometimes it is just a matter of luck and waiting for the right person to come along. Two boats of the exact same model may go for widely different prices depending on how well they were maintained and the gear they have on board.  The prices also vary a lot depending on location.   Sites like yachtworld.com or sailboatlistings.com may be a good place to start to get an idea about the market.  Keep in mind that the boats are often a lot worse in person and the final selling prices are often 20 to 30% lower than advertised.Good luck, Paul | 31601|30737|2014-12-16 14:14:22|opuspaul|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|I never noticed that.....kind of a funny idea.   The tube along the foredeck would be a great thing to trip over and make storing a dinghy on deck difficult.  The normal drum winch further forward on deck works so well.   Using wire is much lighter and cheaper than chain and you could build one of Brent's drum winches for a fraction of the price of a chain winch.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does the chain drop straight down from the winless to the barrel that is sitting in the middle of the cabin? From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue" Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 6:34:20 PM  It is very hard to sell a boat now.  I have seen listings well over 3 years old....the sellers never drop the price to meet the market.   In the meantime they pay maintenance and marina fees while the boat sits and goes nowhere.  There has been an origami boat for sale in NZ for probably 3 years.  He is asking too much for what many would think is a rough boat.http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/displayboat.php?list_code=8907Boat owners often have too much personally invested in their "baby" and aren't realistic when it comes to selling.   The amount of time and money you spent building really means nothing.   It is only the result that matters.   You really need to pretend you are a new buyer and go looking at boats and then ask yourself what you would pay for your boat.   Try to take the emotion out of it.  Origami boats have a fairly unique and narrow but loyal customer base.   Sometimes it is just a matter of luck and waiting for the right person to come along. Two boats of the exact same model may go for widely different prices depending on how well they were maintained and the gear they have on board.  The prices also vary a lot depending on location.   Sites like yachtworld.com or sailboatlistings.com may be a good place to start to get an idea about the market.  Keep in mind that the boats are often a lot worse in person and the final selling prices are often 20 to 30% lower than advertised.Good luck, Paul| 31602|30737|2014-12-16 14:45:04|James Pronk|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|That was the first thing I saw on that boat. Just to odd to overlook. From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue" Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 7:14:21 PM   I never noticed that.....kind of a funny idea.   The tube along the foredeck would be a great thing to trip over and make storing a dinghy on deck difficult.  The normal drum winch further forward on deck works so well.   Using wire is much lighter and cheaper than chain and you could build one of Brent's drum winches for a fraction of the price of a chain winch.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does the chain drop straight down from the winless to the barrel that is sitting in the middle of the cabin? From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue" Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 6:34:20 PM  It is very hard to sell a boat now.  I have seen listings well over 3 years old....the sellers never drop the price to meet the market.   In the meantime they pay maintenance and marina fees while the boat sits and goes nowhere.  There has been an origami boat for sale in NZ for probably 3 years.  He is asking too much for what many would think is a rough boat.http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/displayboat.php?list_code=8907Boat owners often have too much personally invested in their "baby" and aren't realistic when it comes to selling.   The amount of time and money you spent building really means nothing.   It is only the result that matters.   You really need to pretend you are a new buyer and go looking at boats and then ask yourself what you would pay for your boat.   Try to take the emotion out of it.  Origami boats have a fairly unique and narrow but loyal customer base.   Sometimes it is just a matter of luck and waiting for the right person to come along. Two boats of the exact same model may go for widely different prices depending on how well they were maintained and the gear they have on board.  The prices also vary a lot depending on location.   Sites like yachtworld.com or sailboatlistings.com may be a good place to start to get an idea about the market.  Keep in mind that the boats are often a lot worse in person and the final selling prices are often 20 to 30% lower than advertised.Good luck, Paul | 31603|30737|2014-12-16 22:44:10|brentswain38|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Man ,what a crock of total bullshit!Most home built boats are far better built than most commercially built ones. Especially commercially built steel  ones here in BC. Foulkes , Fehr and Amazons are good examples of BC commercially built disasters. Zero paint inside,  foamed over primer or mill scale . Zero welding inside, and most of the outside welds ground off, leaving steel as thin as a beer can holding seams together. Fragile plastic thru hulls. Most name brand gear is super  fragile garbage, compared to home built stuff.Tinned marine grade wiring is a wick, which wicks moisture along its entire length, corroding the entire length. I have pulled it out of old boats, and haven't found any yet which was not corroded its entire length. A friend who runs charter boats said his 12 volt "Marine Grade " switches were constantly crapping out , while his house style ones lasted for ever , which is my experience with them . Some of mine have been in use nearly 30 years, with no problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : This is why self-built boats have little resale value. Costs go up or down 200-400%, or 2-4 times, depending on how and what was done. Variation is easily 8-fold, from low to high. Some value: -well done gear suited for purpose. That would be me. This is about 1% of builders, and 1% of users, or less. Others prefer: -cheap costs -"name brand" systems from "marine store" -great looks, fit and finish -least work and bother Some examples: Foaming may cost 8000€ (11.000USD) down to 2000 USD. Difference is 5-fold. Wiring may cost 10.000 $ (or under 500). Variation is 20-times, or 2000%. Examples:re wiring. Tinned marine grade rated wiring, done with insulated terminals with heat shrink and glue inside, meant for marine installations. Running in conduits, fixed every n cm per code. High and low voltage qoing in separate conduits, per code. With color coded and numbered wires, and a wiring schematic, 100% correct at end of install. Another example: The cost variation is 30-fold, for example, for a "bilge pump", in cost/capacity. The best, cheapest, one is an industrial excavation pump, hazardous duty. This can live inside junk water for a long time, work 24x7, and spit out large chunks of gravel and crap while working, with no damage. Starting around 500-1000€, for 220 or 240 V. Generally brand name does not mean "good", in the hobby-marine sector. It mostly means overpriced, polished, good looking stuff that is not fit for purpose. As most stuff like that is generally not used, this does not matter, overall. On 16/12/2014 16:14, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: Basic Brent Swain 36' should start at about $40 000 to $50 000 from what I've worked out and that would be with minimal gear. I'm just saying, if I was to build a 36' Brent Swain, painted, spray foamed and with a basic interior, I could do it for that. James -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31604|30737|2014-12-17 17:27:37|brentswain38|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|I can think of a lot of other examples . I just rowed past a bunch of bendytoys and hunters, with 24 inch high plastic coated lifelines , which only insure you hit the water head first instead of feet first. They are dangerously low and fragile, no comparison to the 35 inch high solid lifelines you find on my "homebuilt" boats. The cleats are fragile, bolted down, and  made ot of aluminium melted down beer cans , no comparison to the 90 tons sheer strength of the mooring bits on my "homemade boats" . The hatches are so fragile, any large thief could quickly pull  them off by hand , unlike the solid aluminium doors on my "homemade" boats . The blocks are fraction the strength of the line used on them, unlike the "Homemade'  blocks in my book, Ditto the roller furler, anchor winch, chocks ,etc etc. Commercially built boats are inferior by far, in functional terms ,  unless you buy the Bob Perry mantra that the main function of a cruising boat is, as a "Fashion statement ", with function, safety and practicality taking a back seat to "Fashion statement " priorities .He implies that "Cosmic Karma" will intimidate the sea into treating a "Fashion statement " boat more kindly. That is what one could expect from someone with zero long term cruising experience , such s Bob Perry.I will add more about him in the next printing of my book, and change it with each printing. That way he will have to buy a lot of my books to  follow what I have to write about him and his 'Fashion statement " priorities.I agree with your assessment of Brand name marine hobby gear. I dont know anyone who has spent more than a couple of hundred dollars  on wiring. Mine cost me under $100, and works fine after 30 years . I have seen far more expensive wiring give far more problems."You only get what you pay for" is a sleazy used car saleman's favorite scam line. Sold a lot of overpriced lemons over the decades .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Man ,what a crock of total bullshit!Most home built boats are far better built than most commercially built ones. Especially commercially built steel  ones here in BC. Foulkes , Fehr and Amazons are good examples of BC commercially built disasters. Zero paint inside,  foamed over primer or mill scale . Zero welding inside, and most of the outside welds ground off, leaving steel as thin as a beer can holding seams together. Fragile plastic thru hulls. Most name brand gear is super  fragile garbage, compared to home built stuff.Tinned marine grade wiring is a wick, which wicks moisture along its entire length, corroding the entire length. I have pulled it out of old boats, and haven't found any yet which was not corroded its entire length. A friend who runs charter boats said his 12 volt "Marine Grade " switches were constantly crapping out , while his house style ones lasted for ever , which is my experience with them . Some of mine have been in use nearly 30 years, with no problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : This is why self-built boats have little resale value. Costs go up or down 200-400%, or 2-4 times, depending on how and what was done. Variation is easily 8-fold, from low to high. Some value: -well done gear suited for purpose. That would be me. This is about 1% of builders, and 1% of users, or less. Others prefer: -cheap costs -"name brand" systems from "marine store" -great looks, fit and finish -least work and bother Some examples: Foaming may cost 8000€ (11.000USD) down to 2000 USD. Difference is 5-fold. Wiring may cost 10.000 $ (or under 500). Variation is 20-times, or 2000%. Examples:re wiring. Tinned marine grade rated wiring, done with insulated terminals with heat shrink and glue inside, meant for marine installations. Running in conduits, fixed every n cm per code. High and low voltage qoing in separate conduits, per code. With color coded and numbered wires, and a wiring schematic, 100% correct at end of install. Another example: The cost variation is 30-fold, for example, for a "bilge pump", in cost/capacity. The best, cheapest, one is an industrial excavation pump, hazardous duty. This can live inside junk water for a long time, work 24x7, and spit out large chunks of gravel and crap while working, with no damage. Starting around 500-1000€, for 220 or 240 V. Generally brand name does not mean "good", in the hobby-marine sector. It mostly means overpriced, polished, good looking stuff that is not fit for purpose. As most stuff like that is generally not used, this does not matter, overall. On 16/12/2014 16:14, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: Basic Brent Swain 36' should start at about $40 000 to $50 000 from what I've worked out and that would be with minimal gear. I'm just saying, if I was to build a 36' Brent Swain, painted, spray foamed and with a basic interior, I could do it for that. James -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31605|20103|2014-12-17 17:39:26|brentswain38|Steel mast|A friend , after 20,000 miles and several Pacific crossings, in his 36 ft Brentboat, found a deal on an aluminium mast, so decided to switch his 6 inch OD , 11 gauge wall,  steel mast for aluminium.  The difference in sailing? Negligible. Others who have made the switch, concur, saying that the difference is barely noticeable.Perry mentioned a guy he designed a very expensive, and super light  carbon fibre mast for, saying, after a circumnavigation of Vancouver Island , that the difference was barely noticeable.Kinda blows the idea of using  low, dangerous, inadequate lifelines to lower the boat's centre of gravity, or skimping on mast tangs , rigging wire diameter, cleats , etc etc, to substantially  improve sailing performance.The total difference in weight between 1/4 inch and 5/16th inch rigging wire on a 36 is around 17 lbs total, centred below the spreaders . Definitely not worth  the  loss in safety margin on a cruising boat.| 31606|30737|2014-12-17 17:47:25|brentswain38|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|That WAS  a good boat, before the  next owner redesigned her, and thus vandalized the design. Check out where her waterline is, compared to where it is on your boat ,Paul. Then look at that huge, heavy steel pilothouse contraption. I didn't design or build her that way. Then look at that huge, super heavy add on in the stern. I hear it weighs several hundred pounds. I also hear he added to the leading edge of the keel, throwing the balance out. It could be agod boat again, if the next owner took a cutting torch to all the crap and vandalism which as been added.| 31607|30737|2014-12-17 17:50:24|brentswain38|Re: 36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|Forgot "Show message history."This was in reference to  the NZ boat Paul mentioned ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That WAS  a good boat, before the  next owner redesigned her, and thus vandalized the design. Check out where her waterline is, compared to where it is on your boat ,Paul. Then look at that huge, heavy steel pilothouse contraption. I didn't design or build her that way. Then look at that huge, super heavy add on in the stern. I hear it weighs several hundred pounds. I also hear he added to the leading edge of the keel, throwing the balance out. It could be a good boat again, if the next owner took a cutting torch to all the crap and vandalism which as been added.| 31608|30737|2014-12-18 09:23:28|jhess314|Brent's boat building book|Brent,In my opinion your book would be more attractive if it confined itself to information regarding building boats, and did not stray into personal attacks on your detractors.The techniques you've developed will be useful to many long after you've gone to visit Davy Jones. But your arguments with Bob Perry are already boring ancient history.What would be appreciated in new editions of your book are improved photographs and drawings. Many of the ones in my copy of your book are borderline useless because they are so grainy.Best Regards,John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :... Commercially built boats are inferior by far, in functional terms ,  unless you buy the Bob Perry mantra that the main function of a cruising boat is, as a "Fashion statement ", with function, safety and practicality taking a back seat to "Fashion statement " priorities .He implies that "Cosmic Karma" will intimidate the sea into treating a "Fashion statement " boat more kindly. That is what one could expect from someone with zero long term cruising experience , such s Bob Perry.I will add more about him in the next printing of my book, and change it with each printing. That way he will have to buy a lot of my books to  follow what I have to write about him and his 'Fashion statement " priorities. | 31609|30737|2014-12-18 15:20:16|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it.| 31610|30737|2014-12-18 15:42:59|opuspaul|Re: Brent's boat building book|I would be dead if it wasn't for my solid hand rails....Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it.| 31611|30737|2014-12-18 15:43:17|Matt Malone|Re: Brent's boat building book| Does Brent's book really contain that ?   What a waste of space.   If someone has published such ridiculous statements as:  If Bob Perry has actually said the main function of a cruising boat is, as a "Fashion statement", that might be just an observation of how many dock-bound boats are used.  Certainly if your experience dictates better systems such as lifelines, highlight that and give the usage/safety reasons for it and certainly contrast that to "standard" or "typical" systems. Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 12:20:15 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it. | 31612|31612|2014-12-18 16:37:36|brentswain38|Furler tubing|A friend, who builds aluminium boats, said the 1 1/4 inch sch 40 slotted aluminium pipe for making the roller furler extrusion out of, is still available. He uses it for bulwark caps.You just have to shop a little more to find it. Having the slot already extruded in it makes building a furler far easier, and gives you a super smooth slot for the sail to run in.I cant see more than a couple of hours, building a furler with already slotted pipe.| 31613|31569|2014-12-18 16:49:40|brentswain38|Re: shore power|I have used an extension cord on an electric heater on a steel boat. No problems . If you use an electric bilge pump , hooked to a battery, which is fed  by a trickle charger, I cant see any problems there either. A fisherman I once met , had an aluminium boat moored in the river. He said  a wooden boat  moored outside him, ran an extension cord across his deck for the winter. That caused his aluminium boat pitting, and the zincs went fast. The  following year he moored outside, avoiding the cord across his deck. That eliminated the problem. A cord has a field around it, so best keep it from laying across a lot of metal .Over the top of the lifelines should minimize such problems.| 31614|30737|2014-12-18 17:02:29|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|Perry started attacking and ridiculing almost every thing I said from the outset. What that amounts to ,is someone with zero long term cruising experience, zero long term liveaboard experience, zero long term steel boat maintenance experience , zero metal boat building experience,  who's boating experience consists mainly of simply drawing pictures of boats, telling someone who has built dozens of them , over nearly 40 years ,  who has lived aboard for decades, full time , cruised full time for decades, ,made 9 Pacific crossings, semi retired in his mid 20's to cruise mostly full time,HAS IT ALL WRONG!!Allowing an armchair expert like   that , with his disinformation campaigns ( based on abysmal ignorance)has already cost far to many cruisers decades of cruising time ( and  some lives ). No way will I let it go unchallenged!| 31615|30737|2014-12-18 17:35:32|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Brent's boat building book|Word.Naming crap as such puts Mr Swain in best company with other high potentials of the yachtbuilding crowd like, for example, the pretty dedicated C. A. Marchaj, who didn't hesitate showing in painful detail how the solely "economical" (read "greedy") thinking and constructing of the snot-builder-mafia had ruined the seaworthiness of leisure-vessels down to the point the world had to witness in 1979 during that year's "Fastnet Rock Regatta".(ISBN-13: 978-1888671094, Tiller Pub, Revised April 1996, C.A. Marchaj, 'Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor')Those snotbuilders back then even succeeded in "updating" (read "manipulating") the technical rules of entry to blue-water regattas to enable their crappy washing troughs gaining participation in blue water races like the Fastnet Race at all.Go ahead telling, Brent, please.I usually enjoy any Brent-rant verbatim, even if my own experience might slightly depart from Yours, betimes.Am 18.12.2014 um 21:20 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it. | 31616|1761|2014-12-19 22:49:47|aguysailing|Electrolysis|Recently on the site we had some discussion about electrical cords from shore power boxes to the boat causing electrolysis and the importance of not letting these cords touch your boat's metal by letting the cord rest on rags for example ...anything to keep them off metal....Does wire gauge affect electrolysis... example.. more chance of electrolysis in 16 gauge typical extension cords than those large yellow 10 gauge shore power cords? .. thanks| 31617|1761|2014-12-19 23:53:19|Brian Stannard|Re: Electrolysis|No, the insulation or lack of it does. On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 7:49 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Recently on the site we had some discussion about electrical cords from shore power boxes to the boat causing electrolysis and the importance of not letting these cords touch your boat's metal by letting the cord rest on rags for example ...anything to keep them off metal....Does wire gauge affect electrolysis... example.. more chance of electrolysis in 16 gauge typical extension cords than those large yellow 10 gauge shore power cords? .. thanks -- CheersBrian | 31618|1761|2014-12-20 10:13:39|Matt Malone|Re: Electrolysis| Exactly right Brian.Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation.Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times higher than needed to dissolve the boat.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 20:53:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   No, the insulation or lack of it does. On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 7:49 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Recently on the site we had some discussion about electrical cords from shore power boxes to the boat causing electrolysis and the importance of not letting these cords touch your boat's metal by letting the cord rest on rags for example ...anything to keep them off metal....Does wire gauge affect electrolysis... example.. more chance of electrolysis in 16 gauge typical extension cords than those large yellow 10 gauge shore power cords? .. thanks -- CheersBrian | 31619|1761|2014-12-20 10:24:31|a.sobriquet|Re: Electrolysis|Are there ways to attach instruments to your boat to constantly monitor for potential electrolysis, rather than waiting to notice if there is pitting in your hull or a quickly deteriorated zinc?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Exactly right Brian.Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation.Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times higher than needed to dissolve the boat.Matt #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1096400052 #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490 .ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1096400052ygrps-yiv-1683254490ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31620|1761|2014-12-20 11:07:11|aguysailing|Re: Electrolysis|It would be interesting to test the water around a typical BC fisherman's wharf marina with its mix of commercial fishers, power cruisers and sailboats.  I would like to try that here in this big Port Alberni dock I am currently sitting in like a dinky toy in relation to some of these big tuna fishing offshore rigs.| 31621|1761|2014-12-20 11:14:42|aguysailing|Re: Electrolysis|Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times higher than needed to dissolve the boat.Hey Matt... just how rapid would that be?  Very interesting topic.| 31622|1761|2014-12-20 11:35:31|Matt Malone|Re: Electrolysis| Could you hook up something to detect the currents that would cause electrolysis ?The voltages are kind of small, and, your boat acts as a huge radio antenna.  If one hooked up an instrument between the boat and water with delicate enough sensitivity to detect the small voltages and currents, then it would possibly be false-triggered by people using their radio 100 feet from you.  Also, if you have a gasoline motor, it might produce electrical interference and trick it.   A GFCI would have some use here.  Putting a GFCI in your pigtail (a pigtail is the wire with a 240V plug on one end and a 120V outlet on the other)  that you plug into the shore power post on the dock might be better.  It is made to measure the difference between the current going to your boat and the current coming back.   One might still have a small leakage current / slow electrolysis problem below the level of detection of the GFCI.   One might be able to spend a few more bucks and get a more sensitive GFCI, but, it will still have a minimum detection limit.   Very small leakages will not be detected.  However, with a GFCI in your pigtail, if one has a conspicuous problem that suddenly shows itself, like a poor cord starts leaking when it rains, or a cord slipping and falling into the bilge or onto the deck, or something pinches through on a hatch, it might trip on that quite soon after the problem starts.   Once a threshold voltage is reached, the Amount of Electrolysis = Current x Time.A tiny current for a really long time or a large current for a short time are the same amount of electrolysis.  A GFCI will then tend to limit any shore-power caused electrolysis something slow.   Electrolysis can come about from currents from other boats, or industries if you are on a river or close to a factory.  For something outside your boat to cause electrolysis, generally, it has to be a big problem in the remote thing, but perhaps they do not care.   If the dock/quay is metal or concrete reinforced with steel, then the leakage can be occurring before your GFCI and might be coming in on your ground wire that is part of your extension cord.  GFCIs do not detect currents on the ground wire that do not originate from the hot line that passes through the GFCI.   In the simplest model, GFCIs have the hot line wrapped one way around a metal bar, and the neutral line wrapped in the opposite direction.  When the currents in the hot and neutral are the same, their tendency to turn the bar into an electromagnet cancels and there is no magnetism in the bar.  If a little current leaks out of the hot side, less returns on the neutral side, the bar becomes a small electromagnet proportional to the difference and trips the GFCI.   There is no way to know where that current has gone.  It may have gone through your boat into the seawater, or it may have returned on the ground line of the extension cord.   So a GFCI tripping does not tell you that you do have a potential electrolysis problem.  You may just have a wet appliance that is leaking to its ground connection -- exactly what it is supposed to do to help keep you safe from electric shocks.   GFCIs are meant to help keep people safe but they can detect stray currents that would cause electrolysis also.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:24:30 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Are there ways to attach instruments to your boat to constantly monitor for potential electrolysis, rather than waiting to notice if there is pitting in your hull or a quickly deteriorated zinc?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Exactly right Brian.Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation.Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times higher than needed to dissolve the boat.Matt | 31623|1761|2014-12-20 12:20:47|Matt Malone|Re: Electrolysis| >>Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an >>effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power >>cord has voltages dozens of times higher than needed to dissolve the boat. >Hey Matt... just how rapid would that be?  Very interesting topic. I think the best way to appreciate this is an experiment.   I will not describe an experiment in the last detail because they all involve intentionally putting electricity into a plastic bucket of seawater.   There are a thousand ways to hurt yourself of you are not familiar with electricity.   Please no one try this with 120V or 240V power you can really hurt someone.   Also, all these experiments are prone to creating hydrogen gas and possibly other gases.  Do it outside or in a not-closed garage, something the wind can blow through. It comes down to, make the current flow from one little sample of hull plate to another little sample of hull plate through the sea water in the bucket.   A 12 Volt battery with a charger on it and jumper cables would do it.   Just keep in mind 120V AC can do the same thing at least 10 times faster.   Depending on the surface treatment of your little samples of hull plate, you may see damage in minutes or hours.   1 Amp of leakage for 1 hour can theoretically digest about 1 gram of steel.   Your average golf-cart battery will hold about 100 Amp-hours, so, it might be able to dissolve 100g of steel.  That really does not sound like much but with a 10 Amp charger on the battery, by the next day one plate (I believe the one connected to the negative terminal of the battery) might be dissolved through.   In an experiment, on flat samples of hull metal, the process will be pretty fast and will tend to be more uniform because the Amps / square meter on the samples will be high.   In reality on a boat, the leakage current will be far lower Amps / square meter and the damage will pick the most prone area and do nearly all the damage there.   Most importantly, the damage to a boat will not be uniform.  There might be no damage to the hull, but the rudder post might develop a crack right through it because it is a different metal that might be more prone to electrolysis.   Funny electrolysis things can happen in cracks and laps and joints, and welds, and heat affected zones around welds, and really anything that is different than flat smooth metal from the mill.  Some things will be less prone, others more prone to damage.   Pits and pin holes might be one outcome.If you take a nicely ground weld between two little samples of plate, your best work, and put it in seawater I believe on the negative of the battery and a second little scrap of metal on the positive, I predict you will soon see the weld is not so uniform.   Acid etching is how metallurgists take microscope photos of the crystal structure of the metal like these:http://vacaero.com/images/stories/metallography-vander-voort/revealing-microstructure-tool-steels/t15qt-3hercnital10um_lg.gifThe acid does not eat the surface uniformly.  If you are keen to get some interesting photos of acid-etch metal, try a polarizing lens on the camera, it accentuates the variations.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:14:42 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times higher than needed to dissolve the boat.Hey Matt... just how rapid would that be?  Very interesting topic. | 31624|1761|2014-12-20 14:20:55|Darren Bos|Re: Electrolysis| Matt, I agree with most of this, but my understanding is that it is DC that is the primary corrosion problem, not AC (with AC you flip the anode and cathode at 60hz).  It is, of course, possible to have DC impressed on the AC line so that if you have one boat with a DC leak in a marina and all the boats are connected to the ground then other boats can also be affected.  I think DC on the AC line would also trip the GFCI? It should also be possible to monitor for corrosion problems using a silver/silver chloride reference electrode.  This should detect stray DC at a dock and also lets you check if your zincs are working properly when not at a dock.  I've also read that it is possible to use a large strip of copper in place of the Silver/silver chloride electrode, but have never tried it myself.  The following link describes the process, the one thing to add is that you should be able to connect your shorepower cord and see no difference in voltage on the voltmeter ( http://www.caribbeancompass.com/leaking_boat.html  ) There are other dangers with leaking AC, so you definitely don't want that happening either (for example, as little as 10 to 20 mA current could kill a swimmer near a boat).  Darren On 14-12-20 08:35 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Could you hook up something to detect the currents that would cause electrolysis ? The voltages are kind of small, and, your boat acts as a huge radio antenna.  If one hooked up an instrument between the boat and water with delicate enough sensitivity to detect the small voltages and currents, then it would possibly be false-triggered by people using their radio 100 feet from you.  Also, if you have a gasoline motor, it might produce electrical interference and trick it.   A GFCI would have some use here.  Putting a GFCI in your pigtail (a pigtail is the wire with a 240V plug on one end and a 120V outlet on the other)  that you plug into the shore power post on the dock might be better.  It is made to measure the difference between the current going to your boat and the current coming back.   One might still have a small leakage current / slow electrolysis problem below the level of detection of the GF CI.   One might be able to spend a few more bucks and get a more sensitive GFCI, but, it will still have a minimum detection limit.   Very small leakages will not be detected.  However, with a GFCI in your pigtail, if one has a conspicuous problem that suddenly shows itself, like a poor cord starts leaking when it rains, or a cord slipping and falling into the bilge or onto the deck, or something pinches through on a hatch, it might trip on that quite soon after the problem starts.   Once a threshold voltage is reached, the Amount of Electrolysis = Current x Time. A tiny current for a really long time or a large current for a short time are the same amount of electrolysis.  A GFCI will then tend to limit any shore-power caused electrolysis something slow.   Electrolysis can come about from currents from other boats, or industries if you are on a river or close to a factory.  For something outside y our boat to cause electrolysis, generally, it has to be a big problem in the remote thing, but perhaps they do not care.   If the dock/quay is metal or concrete reinforced with steel, then the leakage can be occurring before your GFCI and might be coming in on your ground wire that is part of your extension cord.  GFCIs do not detect currents on the ground wire that do not originate from the hot line that passes through the GFCI.   In the simplest model, GFCIs have the hot line wrapped one way around a metal bar, and the neutral line wrapped in the opposite direction.  When the currents in the hot and neutral are the same, their tendency to turn the bar into an electromagnet cancels and there is no magnetism in the bar.  If a little current leaks out of the hot side, less returns on the neutral side, the bar becomes a small electromagnet proportional to the difference and trips the GFCI.   There is no way to know where tha t current has gone.  It may have gone through your boat into the seawater, or it may have returned on the ground line of the extension cord.   So a GFCI tripping does not tell you that you do have a potential electrolysis problem.  You may just have a wet appliance that is leaking to its ground connection -- exactly what it is supposed to do to help keep you safe from electric shocks.   GFCIs are meant to help keep people safe but they can detect stray currents that would cause electrolysis also.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:24:30 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Are there ways to attach instruments to your boat to constantly monitor for potential electrolysis, rather than waiting to notice if there is pitting in your hull or a quickly deteriorated zinc? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Exactly right Brian. Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation. Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times high er than needed to dissolve the boat. Matt | 31625|1761|2014-12-20 16:45:33|Matt Malone|Re: Electrolysis| Darren, Good article.   I liked their practical solutions to localizing problems.  Unfortunately my clamp-on ammeter does not do small currents so I would not be able to detect a small leak in a circuit using it.   Sounds like buying a French GFCI might be useful.  GCFIs would not trip because of a DC current, they detect a current imbalance.  Yes, AC cycling can change electrolysis, however, in my experience all it does is eat both poles, not just one like DC would.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:20:53 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Matt, I agree with most of this, but my understanding is that it is DC that is the primary corrosion problem, not AC (with AC you flip the anode and cathode at 60hz).  It is, of course, possible to have DC impressed on the AC line so that if you have one boat with a DC leak in a marina and all the boats are connected to the ground then other boats can also be affected.  I think DC on the AC line would also trip the GFCI? It should also be possible to monitor for corrosion problems using a silver/silver chloride reference electrode.  This should detect stray DC at a dock and also lets you check if your zincs are working properly when not at a dock.  I've also read that it is possible to use a large strip of copper in place of the Silver/silver chloride electrode, but have never tried it myself.  The following link describes the process, the one thing to add is that you should be able to connect your shorepower cord and see no difference in voltage on the voltmeter ( http://www.caribbeancompass.com/leaking_boat.html  ) There are other dangers with leaking AC, so you definitely don't want that happening either (for example, as little as 10 to 20 mA current could kill a swimmer near a boat).  Darren On 14-12-20 08:35 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Could you hook up something to detect the currents that would cause electrolysis ? The voltages are kind of small, and, your boat acts as a huge radio antenna.  If one hooked up an instrument between the boat and water with delicate enough sensitivity to detect the small voltages and currents, then it would possibly be false-triggered by people using their radio 100 feet from you.  Also, if you have a gasoline motor, it might produce electrical interference and trick it.   A GFCI would have some use here.  Putting a GFCI in your pigtail (a pigtail is the wire with a 240V plug on one end and a 120V outlet on the other)  that you plug into the shore power post on the dock might be better.  It is made to measure the difference between the current going to your boat and the current coming back.   One might still have a small leakage current / slow electrolysis problem below the level of detection of the GF CI.   One might be able to spend a few more bucks and get a more sensitive GFCI, but, it will still have a minimum detection limit.   Very small leakages will not be detected.  However, with a GFCI in your pigtail, if one has a conspicuous problem that suddenly shows itself, like a poor cord starts leaking when it rains, or a cord slipping and falling into the bilge or onto the deck, or something pinches through on a hatch, it might trip on that quite soon after the problem starts.   Once a threshold voltage is reached, the Amount of Electrolysis = Current x Time. A tiny current for a really long time or a large current for a short time are the same amount of electrolysis.  A GFCI will then tend to limit any shore-power caused electrolysis something slow.   Electrolysis can come about from currents from other boats, or industries if you are on a river or close to a factory.  For something outside y our boat to cause electrolysis, generally, it has to be a big problem in the remote thing, but perhaps they do not care.   If the dock/quay is metal or concrete reinforced with steel, then the leakage can be occurring before your GFCI and might be coming in on your ground wire that is part of your extension cord.  GFCIs do not detect currents on the ground wire that do not originate from the hot line that passes through the GFCI.   In the simplest model, GFCIs have the hot line wrapped one way around a metal bar, and the neutral line wrapped in the opposite direction.  When the currents in the hot and neutral are the same, their tendency to turn the bar into an electromagnet cancels and there is no magnetism in the bar.  If a little current leaks out of the hot side, less returns on the neutral side, the bar becomes a small electromagnet proportional to the difference and trips the GFCI.   There is no way to know where tha t current has gone.  It may have gone through your boat into the seawater, or it may have returned on the ground line of the extension cord.   So a GFCI tripping does not tell you that you do have a potential electrolysis problem.  You may just have a wet appliance that is leaking to its ground connection -- exactly what it is supposed to do to help keep you safe from electric shocks.   GFCIs are meant to help keep people safe but they can detect stray currents that would cause electrolysis also.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:24:30 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Are there ways to attach instruments to your boat to constantly monitor for potential electrolysis, rather than waiting to notice if there is pitting in your hull or a quickly deteriorated zinc? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Exactly right Brian. Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation. Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times high er than needed to dissolve the boat. Matt | 31626|1761|2014-12-20 17:40:54|brentswain38|Re: Electrolysis|I once read an article suggesting insulating  a bronze 3/8th inch bolt, ran thru the hull , fully insulated from the hull, and hooking it up to a one volt volt meter. The other wire is connected to the hull.It will show you how much you have to worry about. From what I remember, about  .75 volts is OK.| 31627|30737|2014-12-20 17:45:06|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|Many people have no doubt, already  died ,as a result of 'Fashion Statement " handrails , and "Fashion statement " boats. Warning people about them, and the people who design them , is a moral duty---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would be dead if it wasn't for my solid hand rails....Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it.| 31628|1761|2014-12-20 17:57:27|brentswain38|Re: Electrolysis|Some people, when moored long term, hang a zinc on a wire over the stern, attached to a stanchion, and electrically well connected. That is one easy zinc to keep an eye on.With a twin keeler, going for occasional cruises, one can check things out when drying out.| 31629|30737|2014-12-20 18:16:55|Larry Dale|Re: Brent's boat building book|It's worse than that now. I got an E-mail earlier this year of a new boat that had a big, dark black, plexiglass window in the hull. I replied to the manufacturer that this Boat-of-the-Year would be safe if it didn't leave the bay but, once it got out on the ocean and fell off a wave onto it's beam the window wouldn't survive and that they were doing the sailing public a dis-service by producing such boats. The manufacturer's response was that they were building what people wanted. The main problem is to teach people about proper boat design. Perry is building for a world of rich who want to impress their friends. It's not just Perry; it's the whole industry that complies to the current standards of boat building. Please, by all means, take on the industry and not just one designer.There should be some one talking to the people at boat shows and informing them about proper design. I know here at the Toronto and Chicago shows they have seminars for sailors. You could probably get on the speaking schedule the first year. After that if you spoke too strongly against the industry you wouldn't be invited back. I'd come and see you speak. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 -- #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 .ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-photo-title{ clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-photo{ background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-row { clear:both;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-row div { float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 p { clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-file { width:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-row div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913attach-row div div span { font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 div.ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-file-title { font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 -- #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913 #ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1757514708yiv0898964913ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1757514708 Many people have no doubt, already  died ,as a result of 'Fashion Statement " handrails , and "Fashion statement " boats. Warning people about them, and the people who design them , is a moral duty---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would be dead if it wasn't for my solid hand rails....Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it. | 31630|30737|2014-12-20 19:55:43|Matt Malone|Re: Brent's boat building book| >I know here at the Toronto and Chicago shows they have >seminars for sailors. You could probably get on the speaking >schedule the first year. After that if you spoke too strongly >against the industry you wouldn't be invited back. I'd come >and see you speak. Same here.   The Toronto boat show is Jan 10-18, 2015.   It used to be all huge expensive boats, now it is a lot more small boatsand boat systems, and chandleries.   It is definitely more flea-market like now.    Being Toronto is inland, I am not sure how strongly seaworthiness is valued, but, everyone dreams of goingbeyond the lake.   Talk about the Northwest Passage and Cape Horn.  That is something the others will not be able to talk about.  I went to one talk about cruising the Caribbean.  It was good as far as dealing with its topic, talking about the various islands,but it said nothing about boat stuff, no mention of shallow shifting bars, twin headsails, places to get water, places with no rain... nothing practical.   You might still be able to get a table to sell books at.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 23:16:48 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   It's worse than that now. I got an E-mail earlier this year of a new boat that had a big, dark black, plexiglass window in the hull. I replied to the manufacturer that this Boat-of-the-Year would be safe if it didn't leave the bay but, once it got out on the ocean and fell off a wave onto it's beam the window wouldn't survive and that they were doing the sailing public a dis-service by producing such boats. The manufacturer's response was that they were building what people wanted. The main problem is to teach people about proper boat design. Perry is building for a world of rich who want to impress their friends. It's not just Perry; it's the whole industry that complies to the current standards of boat building. Please, by all means, take on the industry and not just one designer.There should be some one talking to the people at boat shows and informing them about proper design. I know here at the Toronto and Chicago shows they have seminars for sailors. You could probably get on the speaking schedule the first year. After that if you spoke too strongly against the industry you wouldn't be invited back. I'd come and see you speak. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Many people have no doubt, already  died ,as a result of 'Fashion Statement " handrails , and "Fashion statement " boats. Warning people about them, and the people who design them , is a moral duty---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would be dead if it wasn't for my solid hand rails....Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I think I have the right to respond to attacks on   me in any way I have available, when others have been blocked. If bullshit from those who have little hands on experience in the subject goes unchallenged, it is often accepted as fact. I also have the right to warn the potential victims of disinformation , and money grubbers . Such bullshit has cost far to many low income wannabe cruisers decades of living their dreams . When it comes to tiny "Fashion statement"  lifelines, I have already lost  4 friends to inadequate lifelines . I will continue to warn people of that problem, and  whoever promotes it. | 31631|1761|2014-12-21 00:11:16|Darren Bos|Re: Electrolysis| Matt, With the silver/silver chloride reference electrode, or the copper plate, you are measuring voltage, not current.  So, just about any inexpensive digital volt meter ought to be able to do the job.  Once you have measured the voltage around your boat once (best done at anchor), you should have an idea of what the proper voltage is for your boat when the zincs are protecting it and there is no DC leakage (depending on hull material this is between -500mV and -1000mV).  Anytime, you are concerned about a marina or the health of your zincs you can use the electrode to check for problems. If anyone has successfully used a copper plate in place of the $120 silver/silver chloride electrode, I'd like to hear about it.  I'd give it a try, but I'm hauled for an extensive refit. Darren On 14-12-20 01:44 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, Good article.   I liked their practical solutions to localizing problems.  Unfortunately my clamp-on ammeter does not do small currents so I would not be able to detect a small leak in a circuit using it.   Sounds like buying a French GFCI might be useful.  GCFIs would not trip because of a DC current, they detect a current imbalance.  Yes, AC cycling can change electrolysis, however, in my experience all it does is eat both poles, not just one like DC would.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:20:53 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Matt, I agree with most of this, but my understanding is that it is DC that is the primary corrosion problem, not AC (with AC you flip the anode and cathode at 60hz).  It is, of course, possible to have DC impressed on the AC line so that if you have one boat with a DC leak in a marina and all the boats are connected to the ground then other boats can also be affected.  I think DC on the AC line would also trip the GFCI? It should also be possible to monitor for corrosion problems using a silver/silver chloride reference electrode.  This should detect stray DC at a dock and also lets you check if your zincs are working properly when not at a dock.  I've also read that it is possible to use a large strip of copper in place of the Silver/silver chloride electrode, but have never tried it myself.  The following link describes the process, the one thing to add is that you should be able to connect your shorepower cord and see no difference in voltage on the voltmeter ( http://www.caribbeancompass.com/leaking_boat.html  ) There are other dangers with leaking AC, so you definitely don't want that happening either (for example, as little as 10 to 20 mA current could kill a swimmer near a boat).  Darren On 14-12-20 08:35 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Could you hook up something to detect the currents that would cause electrolysis ? The voltages are kind of small, and, your boat acts as a huge radio antenna.  If one hooked up an instrument between the boat and water with delicate enough sensitivity to detect the small voltages and currents, then it would possibly be false-triggered by people using their radio 100 feet from you.  Also, if you have a gasoline motor, it might produce electrical interference and trick it.   A GFCI would have some use here.  Putting a GFCI in your pigtail (a pigtail is the wire with a 240V plug on one end and a 120V outlet on the other)  that you plug into the shore power post on the dock might be better.  It is made to measure the difference between the current going to your boat and the current coming back.   One might still have a small leakage current / slow electrolysis problem below the level of detection of the GF CI.   One might be able to spend a few more bucks and get a more sensitive GFCI, but, it will still have a minimum detection limit.   Very small leakages will not be detected.  However, with a GFCI in your pigtail, if one has a conspicuous problem that suddenly shows itself, like a poor cord starts leaking when it rains, or a cord slipping and falling into the bilge or onto the deck, or something pinches through on a hatch, it might trip on that quite soon after the problem starts.   Once a threshold voltage is reached, the Amount of Electrolysis = Current x Time. A tiny current for a really long time or a large current for a short time are the same amount of electrolysis.  A GFCI will then tend to limit any shore-power caused electrolysis something slow.   Electrolysis can come about from currents from other boats, or industries if you are on a river or close to a factory.  For something outside y our boat to cause electrolysis, generally, it has to be a big problem in the remote thing, but perhaps they do not care.   If the dock/quay is metal or concrete reinforced with steel, then the leakage can be occurring before your GFCI and might be coming in on your ground wire that is part of your extension cord.  GFCIs do not detect currents on the ground wire that do not originate from the hot line that passes through the GFCI.   In the simplest model, GFCIs have the hot line wrapped one way around a metal bar, and the neutral line wrapped in the opposite direction.  When the currents in the hot and neutral are the same, their tendency to turn the bar into an electromagnet cancels and there is no magnetism in the bar.  If a little current leaks out of the hot side, less returns on the neutral side, the bar becomes a small electromagnet proportional to the difference and trips the GFCI.   There is no way to know where tha t current has gone.  It may have gone through your boat into the seawater, or it may have returned on the ground line of the extension cord.   So a GFCI tripping does not tell you that you do have a potential electrolysis problem.  You may just have a wet appliance that is leaking to its ground connection -- exactly what it is supposed to do to help keep you safe from electric shocks.   GFCIs are meant to help keep people safe but they can detect stray currents that would cause electrolysis also.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:24:30 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Are there ways to attach instruments to your boat to constantly monitor for potential electrolysis, rather than waiting to notice if there is pitting in your hull or a quickly deteriorated zinc? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Exactly right Brian. Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation. Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times high er than needed to dissolve the boat. Matt | 31632|1761|2014-12-21 08:30:37|Matt Malone|Re: Electrolysis| Darren,Again, you are absolutely correct.  I have used a silver/silver chloride reference electrode in the lab.  I never imagined it would be practical to use it on a boat, but here is one for sale and a picture of how it works:http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.htmlThat looks really easy.  Reading this forum is a great way to learn something new every day.As a procedure, to make sure I get a good base reading, I would replace all the zincs, and take the boat out into a calm bay, remove the battery cable from the positive of all the batteries.  I would probe around the boat and attach the multimeter positive lead (shown in the diagram) to different pieces of metal on my boat.  If one has an insulated back-stay as an antenna, I would leave that out -- it is intentionally insulated you could get any reading.  I would do the motor shaft and rudder post separate from the boat.  I have an old inches-thick fibreglass dinosaur of a boat with a sealed iron ballast (no, not lead, iron).  In my case I would pay particular attention to the measurement there because it might tell me if the ballast is really sealed and warn me of possible swelling-corrosion problems down the road.  I would make notes of all the numbers in the log.   Then I would reconnect the batteries and try again and record the new numbers in the log.  If I get any changes with the batteries reconnected that is interesting.  If any piece of metal reads very different from the others, I would look carefully at how it attaches to the hull of a steel boat, maybe I have incompatible metals in contact -- bimetal corrosion is a possibility.  In any case, I would have a baseline.  If I get any numbers that are really different in a fibreglass boat, I would have to do more research to see what I should do about that, if anything.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 21:11:14 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Matt, With the silver/silver chloride reference electrode, or the copper plate, you are measuring voltage, not current.  So, just about any inexpensive digital volt meter ought to be able to do the job.  Once you have measured the voltage around your boat once (best done at anchor), you should have an idea of what the proper voltage is for your boat when the zincs are protecting it and there is no DC leakage (depending on hull material this is between -500mV and -1000mV).  Anytime, you are concerned about a marina or the health of your zincs you can use the electrode to check for problems. If anyone has successfully used a copper plate in place of the $120 silver/silver chloride electrode, I'd like to hear about it.  I'd give it a try, but I'm hauled for an extensive refit. Darren On 14-12-20 01:44 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, Good article.   I liked their practical solutions to localizing problems.  Unfortunately my clamp-on ammeter does not do small currents so I would not be able to detect a small leak in a circuit using it.   Sounds like buying a French GFCI might be useful.  GCFIs would not trip because of a DC current, they detect a current imbalance.  Yes, AC cycling can change electrolysis, however, in my experience all it does is eat both poles, not just one like DC would.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:20:53 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Matt, I agree with most of this, but my understanding is that it is DC that is the primary corrosion problem, not AC (with AC you flip the anode and cathode at 60hz).  It is, of course, possible to have DC impressed on the AC line so that if you have one boat with a DC leak in a marina and all the boats are connected to the ground then other boats can also be affected.  I think DC on the AC line would also trip the GFCI? It should also be possible to monitor for corrosion problems using a silver/silver chloride reference electrode.  This should detect stray DC at a dock and also lets you check if your zincs are working properly when not at a dock.  I've also read that it is possible to use a large strip of copper in place of the Silver/silver chloride electrode, but have never tried it myself.  The following link describes the process, the one thing to add is that you should be able to connect your shorepower cord and see no difference in voltage on the voltmeter ( http://www.caribbeancompass.com/leaking_boat.html  ) There are other dangers with leaking AC, so you definitely don't want that happening either (for example, as little as 10 to 20 mA current could kill a swimmer near a boat).  Darren On 14-12-20 08:35 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Could you hook up something to detect the currents that would cause electrolysis ? The voltages are kind of small, and, your boat acts as a huge radio antenna.  If one hooked up an instrument between the boat and water with delicate enough sensitivity to detect the small voltages and currents, then it would possibly be false-triggered by people using their radio 100 feet from you.  Also, if you have a gasoline motor, it might produce electrical interference and trick it.   A GFCI would have some use here.  Putting a GFCI in your pigtail (a pigtail is the wire with a 240V plug on one end and a 120V outlet on the other)  that you plug into the shore power post on the dock might be better.  It is made to measure the difference between the current going to your boat and the current coming back.   One might still have a small leakage current / slow electrolysis problem below the level of detection of the GF CI.   One might be able to spend a few more bucks and get a more sensitive GFCI, but, it will still have a minimum detection limit.   Very small leakages will not be detected.  However, with a GFCI in your pigtail, if one has a conspicuous problem that suddenly shows itself, like a poor cord starts leaking when it rains, or a cord slipping and falling into the bilge or onto the deck, or something pinches through on a hatch, it might trip on that quite soon after the problem starts.   Once a threshold voltage is reached, the Amount of Electrolysis = Current x Time. A tiny current for a really long time or a large current for a short time are the same amount of electrolysis.  A GFCI will then tend to limit any shore-power caused electrolysis something slow.   Electrolysis can come about from currents from other boats, or industries if you are on a river or close to a factory.  For something outside y our boat to cause electrolysis, generally, it has to be a big problem in the remote thing, but perhaps they do not care.   If the dock/quay is metal or concrete reinforced with steel, then the leakage can be occurring before your GFCI and might be coming in on your ground wire that is part of your extension cord.  GFCIs do not detect currents on the ground wire that do not originate from the hot line that passes through the GFCI.   In the simplest model, GFCIs have the hot line wrapped one way around a metal bar, and the neutral line wrapped in the opposite direction.  When the currents in the hot and neutral are the same, their tendency to turn the bar into an electromagnet cancels and there is no magnetism in the bar.  If a little current leaks out of the hot side, less returns on the neutral side, the bar becomes a small electromagnet proportional to the difference and trips the GFCI.   There is no way to know where tha t current has gone.  It may have gone through your boat into the seawater, or it may have returned on the ground line of the extension cord.   So a GFCI tripping does not tell you that you do have a potential electrolysis problem.  You may just have a wet appliance that is leaking to its ground connection -- exactly what it is supposed to do to help keep you safe from electric shocks.   GFCIs are meant to help keep people safe but they can detect stray currents that would cause electrolysis also.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:24:30 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Are there ways to attach instruments to your boat to constantly monitor for potential electrolysis, rather than waiting to notice if there is pitting in your hull or a quickly deteriorated zinc? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Exactly right Brian. Further, insulation protects people.  A cord laying on a wet deck might leak just enough current at low voltage to dissolve a boat, but, provide no shock when touched by a person.  That is why well-pump wire and outdoor contractor extension cords and shore power cables have so much thicker insulation, and better rubber insulation. Electrolysis = dissolve boat.  A little electricity can turn sea water into an effective acid.    It only takes a few volts to dissolve even gold.   A power cord has voltages dozens of times high er than needed to dissolve the boat. Matt | 31633|1761|2014-12-21 09:47:18|a.sobriquet|Re: Electrolysis|I had no idea that wooden boats might be subject to electrolysis problems too.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Darren,Again, you are absolutely correct.  I have used a silver/silver chloride reference electrode in the lab.  I never imagined it would be practical to use it on a boat, but here is one for sale and a picture of how it works:http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.htmlThat looks really easy.  Reading this forum is a great way to learn something new every day. #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-149229706 #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439 .ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-149229706ygrps-yiv-529158439ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31634|1761|2014-12-21 16:27:53|Brian Stannard|Re: Electrolysis|Any underwater metal is a candidate for stray current corrosion. Wooden boats have one issue that other boats do not. If there is too many zincs the wood around fastenings will deteriorate.  On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 6:47 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I had no idea that wooden boats might be subject to electrolysis problems too.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Darren,Again, you are absolutely correct.  I have used a silver/silver chloride reference electrode in the lab.  I never imagined it would be practical to use it on a boat, but here is one for sale and a picture of how it works:http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.htmlThat looks really easy.  Reading this forum is a great way to learn something new every day. -- CheersBrian | 31635|30737|2014-12-21 16:33:54|theboilerflue|Re: Brent's boat building book|Yeah I find brent book a lot more attractive because of his relentless assault on the commonly accepted bullshit culture we're drowning in regularly. Boating should not be the ultra expensive "hobby" it is for all these privileged mostly white males in their sixties. The same generation that in their life time have managed to defile and destroy 90% of the fisheries, forests, anything living - seriously there needs to be some major major changes in culture in this world and I don't think singling activities out from serious criticism of it lavish squandering of resources for the sake of social status is a good direction to move in. You've read Jared Diamond's book about easter island's downfall? Or we could just keep building bigger and bigger plastic floating palaces. Just saying...| 31636|30737|2014-12-21 20:03:37|aguysailing|Re: Brent's boat building book|>I know here at the Toronto and Chicago shows they have >seminars for sailors. You could probably get on the speaking >schedule the first year. After that if youspoke too strongly >against the industry you wouldn't be invited back.I'd come >and see you speak.Well, actually if you visit Comox Harbour, Brent gives speeches here all the time (at anytime mostly) | 31637|30737|2014-12-21 20:05:32|aguysailing|Re: Brent's boat building book|Well, actually if you visit Comox Harbour, Brent gives speeches here all the time (at anytime mostly)| 31638|1761|2014-12-21 22:48:21|Matt Malone|Re: Electrolysis| Keel bolts.Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:27:51 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Any underwater metal is a candidate for stray current corrosion. Wooden boats have one issue that other boats do not. If there is too many zincs the wood around fastenings will deteriorate.  On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 6:47 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I had no idea that wooden boats might be subject to electrolysis problems too.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Darren,Again, you are absolutely correct.  I have used a silver/silver chloride reference electrode in the lab.  I never imagined it would be practical to use it on a boat, but here is one for sale and a picture of how it works:http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.htmlThat looks really easy.  Reading this forum is a great way to learn something new every day. -- CheersBrian | 31639|30737|2014-12-22 01:27:33|Paul Thompson|Re: Brent's boat building book|Haidan, could not agree with your sentiments more.Paul Thompson On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 10:33 AM, haidan@... [origamiboats] wrote: Yeah I find brent book a lot more attractive because of his relentless assault on the commonly accepted bullshit culture we're drowning in regularly. Boating should not be the ultra expensive "hobby" it is for all these privileged mostly white males in their sixties. The same generation that in their life time have managed to defile and destroy 90% of the fisheries, forests, anything living - seriously there needs to be some major major changes in culture in this world and I don't think singling activities out from serious criticism of it lavish squandering of resources for the sake of social status is a good direction to move in. You've read Jared Diamond's book about easter island's downfall? Or we could just keep building bigger and bigger plastic floating palaces. Just saying... -- Regards,Paul Thompson | 31640|1761|2014-12-22 01:32:21|Darren Bos|Re: Electrolysis| An interesting part about wooden boats is that it is the wood that can also get attacked by galvanic or stray current corrosion.  If you put too much zinc (or worse magnesium "zincs") on a wooden boat you can produce an alkaline (basic) solution at the cathode (wooden fasteners).  The alkaline solution attacks the wood, the fasteners themselves can be OK.  I think a similar mechanism can cause the peeling of paint on an steel boat. Darren On 14-12-21 07:48 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Keel bolts. Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:27:51 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Any underwater metal is a candidate for stray current corrosion. Wooden boats have one issue that other boats do not. If there is too many zincs the wood around fastenings will deteriorate.  On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 6:47 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I had no idea that wooden boats might be subject to electrolysis problems too. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Darren, Again, you are absolutely correct.  I have used a silver/silver chloride reference electrode in the lab.  I never imagined it would be practical to use it on a boat, but here is one for sale and a picture of how it works: http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html That looks really easy.  Reading this forum is a great way to learn something new every day. -- Cheers Brian | 31641|30737|2014-12-22 06:57:12|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Brent's boat building book|I second this.An increasing lot of people do "feel" in one way or another that meanwhile there went "something" systematically wrong in their lives, be it their education, their subsequent jobs or the way even their holidays, their weekends and their hobbies were constantly degraded into somebody else's moneygaining business.But: the average wrong-feelers still don't think long enough about what might've been their wrong choices before going back to making some more consumer-money or watching consumer-ads on their numerous TV-sets. (... which indeed some sport already on their boats ...).So, selling snakeoil like boats which, as long as bought in the right state-of-mind, might turn to fashion statements with inferior cosmic Karma able to intimidate the elements (hopefully more intimidating some kind of "Poseidon" than "the elements" ;-) to treat the happy buyer more kindly than the sad, sweaty DIY-tinker next door is a completely reasonable way to rob boat-buyers with more bucks than brains. Why? Because it works; quite well does it work, as long as I watch the astonishing recuperation of he firstworld market for leisureboats since 2009.Still sparsely, though, people like Brent are found amongst the crowd who don't hesitate to reveal the snakeoil-system they see, and even dare naming some of the usual suspects right away, and in a field they themselves proofed to be some kind of experts in.Look at the Emperors fabulous new clothes! Best of all: they are completely invisible, aren't they?Can't appreciate that outing enough!The -absolutely necessary- major, major change I can't see approaching yet, I'm afraid.Am 21.12.2014 um 22:33 schrieb haidan@... [origamiboats]:   Yeah I find brent book a lot more attractive because of his relentless assault on the commonly accepted bullshit culture we're drowning in regularly. Boating should not be the ultra expensive "hobby" it is for all these privileged mostly white males in their sixties. The same generation that in their life time have managed to defile and destroy 90% of the fisheries, forests, anything living - seriously there needs to be some major major changes in culture in this world and I don't think singling activities out from serious criticism of it lavish squandering of resources for the sake of social status is a good direction to move in. You've read Jared Diamond's book about easter island's downfall? Or we could just keep building bigger and bigger plastic floating palaces. Just saying... | 31642|30737|2014-12-22 16:01:35|aguysailing|Re: Brent's boat building book|Ditto, Haidan....Gary| 31643|1761|2014-12-22 16:51:05|Robert Jones|Re: Electrolysis|Great string guys! Thanks for lots of good info! robert On Monday, December 22, 2014 12:32 AM, "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   An interesting part about wooden boats is that it is the wood that can also get attacked by galvanic or stray current corrosion.  If you put too much zinc (or worse magnesium "zincs") on a wooden boat you can produce an alkaline (basic) solution at the cathode (wooden fasteners).  The alkaline solution attacks the wood, the fasteners themselves can be OK.  I think a similar mechanism can cause the peeling of paint on an steel boat. Darren On 14-12-21 07:48 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Keel bolts. Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:27:51 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electrolysis   Any underwater metal is a candidate for stray current corrosion. Wooden boats have one issue that other boats do not. If there is too many zincs the wood around fastenings will deteriorate.  On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 6:47 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I had no idea that wooden boats might be subject to electrolysis problems too. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Darren, Again, you are absolutely correct.  I have used a silver/silver chloride reference electrode in the lab.  I never imagined it would be practical to use it on a boat, but here is one for sale and a picture of how it works: http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html That looks really easy.  Reading this forum is a great way to learn something new every day. -- Cheers Brian #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 -- #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575activity span .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 dd.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 dd.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 dd.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575last p span.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 div#ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 .ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 input, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575 #ygrps-yiv-1638748181yiv1948944575ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1638748181 | 31644|31644|2014-12-23 14:41:31|Alex Bar|Origami motor boats|Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link?Thanksalex| 31645|31644|2014-12-23 14:50:43|brentswain38|Re: Origami motor boats|Ger Meuller in Hungary designs and builds origami motorboats . His website was  the yago project. Don't know if it is still running.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link?Thanksalex| 31646|31644|2014-12-23 14:58:19|Matt Malone|Re: Origami motor boats| Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ?   I have looked at the fuel costs of 100% motor boats and one has to be fantastically wealthy to actually go anywhere in one fitted out for cruising.  $2,000 in fuel in a weekend.  I used $12 of fuel in a year sailing.  (But I do not run the engine for hot water or to generating electricity, I use solar for electricity and my stove to heat water.)   \Fine, have a huge motor, and more of a motor-boat shape (which yes can be done with orgami), but, have the option for secondary propulsion by sails.   It makes a lot of sense.  It provides more options.  It extends your range.  While there are many boaters who are afraid of anything with a mast, I think the boat will appeal more to some buyers for the reasons of cost, range and redundancy.Matt        To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:41:29 +0100Subject: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats   Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link?Thanksalex | 31647|30737|2014-12-23 15:09:21|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites)..| 31648|30737|2014-12-23 15:11:02|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|I second that!| 31649|30737|2014-12-23 15:21:49|j fisher|Re: Brent's boat building book|Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising. On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. | 31650|31644|2014-12-24 01:37:09|Brian Stannard|Re: Origami motor boats|Matt, you are looking at the wrong powerboats. Some are very fuel efficient. On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ?   I have looked at the fuel costs of 100% motor boats and one has to be fantastically wealthy to actually go anywhere in one fitted out for cruising.  $2,000 in fuel in a weekend.  I used $12 of fuel in a year sailing.  (But I do not run the engine for hot water or to generating electricity, I use solar for electricity and my stove to heat water.)   \Fine, have a huge motor, and more of a motor-boat shape (which yes can be done with orgami), but, have the option for secondary propulsion by sails.   It makes a lot of sense.  It provides more options.  It extends your range.  While there are many boaters who are afraid of anything with a mast, I think the boat will appeal more to some buyers for the reasons of cost, range and redundancy.Matt        To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:41:29 +0100Subject: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats   Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link?Thanksalex -- CheersBrian | 31651|30737|2014-12-24 02:53:17|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Brent's boat building book|As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:   Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. | 31652|31644|2014-12-24 08:16:33|Matt Malone|Re: Origami motor boats| Darren,I admit my experience with the fuel efficiency of motor boats is not that extensive.   I was taking a 45ish foot large interior boat driven at planing speed.  Certainly if one wants to go with much less fat, a sleaker narrow design and particularly if one wants to be below hull speed on a well-designed displacement hull, one can save tremendously in gas, but that is getting dangerously close to being a sailboat without sails.   It is true you do not have that great big inconvenient keel that keeps bumping into things, but gosh you might look at the same island for 30 minutes or an hour before you get past it and put it in your wake.   It would take a dreadful amount of time to get anywhere.   At that point it just seems to me you are admitting incompetence to not have a mast on it.   (Joke)The point I am making is, the goals and desires of most motor boat owners are working directly against fuel efficiency.   Even when one is not making 100% fashion-statement boats, one does make boats that are what people want to buy.   I am certain there are more fuel-efficient motor-cruisers out there, but you cannot water ski behind them, and there would be no room for all the guests, and they do not go fast enough for the least patient guest in high heels.   Even if it is not a fashion statement, it is still a point of pride for owners.  Looking limited in front of their not-boaty friends is a real concern.  The throb of that huge power plant, the instance rush of speed, the wind they create, that is their power.   All against fuel efficiency.  Fuel-efficient motor-cruisers are at risk of being replaced by all-solar boats in areas where there is enough sun.   There is potentially a lot of interesting design and engineering that can be done in that area.   Still, I do not understand why you would not put a mast on it in areas with wind and less sun.  If one wants a cruiser without boundaries, I do not understand why you would not put a mast on it.  If I had a motor cruiser I would find the bottom of my fuel tank to be my most limiting boundary, followed by my wallet.   With a sailboat I can trade time, intelligence, skill and tactics for money and remove nearly all practical limits on how far I can go.Isn't that an apt description of origami?   With origami I can trade time, intelligence, skill and tactics for money and remove nearly all practical limits on how far I can go.  I think Brent has a pure idea, origami and sail and motor auxiliary.   Any other combination is less pure.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 22:37:07 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats   Matt, you are looking at the wrong powerboats. Some are very fuel efficient. On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ?   I have looked at the fuel costs of 100% motor boats and one has to be fantastically wealthy to actually go anywhere in one fitted out for cruising.  $2,000 in fuel in a weekend.  I used $12 of fuel in a year sailing.  (But I do not run the engine for hot water or to generating electricity, I use solar for electricity and my stove to heat water.)   \Fine, have a huge motor, and more of a motor-boat shape (which yes can be done with orgami), but, have the option for secondary propulsion by sails.   It makes a lot of sense.  It provides more options.  It extends your range.  While there are many boaters who are afraid of anything with a mast, I think the boat will appeal more to some buyers for the reasons of cost, range and redundancy.Matt        To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:41:29 +0100Subject: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats   Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link?Thanksalex -- CheersBrian | 31653|31644|2014-12-24 08:17:24|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Origami motor boats|Gerd's Yago site isn't running at all since a couple of years, the domain yago-project com is dead too.I seriously tried to get into contact with him twice the last half a decade for folks in search of a lightweight method to build a motor propelled riverboat, but he seems to have vanished completely from the scene, and my contacts to Hungary are to sailorfolks more than motorboaters.Though, some of the ideas are still to find with google pics as inspirations, searching for "yago-project", with or without "origami" or "boat" (NSA's interweb doesn't forget a thing).Gerd probably went sailing ... (hopefully)Am 23.12.2014 um 20:50 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   Ger Meuller in Hungary designs and builds origami motorboats . His website was  the yago project. Don't know if it is still running.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link?Thanksalex | 31654|30737|2014-12-24 09:50:13|Matt Malone|Re: Brent's boat building book| It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard.  That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat".  It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:   Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. | 31655|31644|2014-12-24 12:43:02|wild_explorer|Re: Origami motor boats|Rowboat, sailboat, motorsailer, motorboat, speedboat, etc. ;)))So, vessel using sails and motor is a motorsailer.Vessel propelled exclusively by motor at speeds close to hull speed is a motorboat.Most universal (in my opinion) shape is dory. I saw it done done from material range from plywood to 3/16 steel (rowboat, motorsailer, motorboat). Fishing dory motorboats with outboards a capable of landing on sand beach and drugging it from a beach to a trailer by pick up truck.Very close (in idea) to Origamiboat are Aluminum river fishing boats (Weldcraft, Raider, Alumacraft, Alumaweld, etc). Very practical design and have outboards (50-100hp). Something between motor and speedboat. All this is "trailerable" - up to 20-25 ft long. Recently saw work-boat made from 3/16 steel and outboard - 3 sheet constriction (sides and bottom).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ?#ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1622182748 #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009 .ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1622182748ygrps-yiv-1938299009ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31656|31644|2014-12-24 14:18:36|Darren Bos|Re: Origami motor boats| Matt, I think you meant Brian, not Darren, I'm actually a fan of the kind of boat you describe as "dangerously close to being a sailboat without sails". In fact, if I was only sticking around the Pacific North West that is the kind of boat I would have.  A narrowish hull and longish waterline can produce some really efficient displacement boats.  There are quite a few advantages.  First, without a mast in the way you can place a nice big warm comfortable pilothouse (standing height for 6'3") well forward on the boat.  This is a nice place to get out of the rain, and being further forward on the boat it makes it a lot easier to look for the logs which frequent this coast.  With a displacement powerboat you travel everywhere at close to the top sailing speed of a similar length sailboat, this is very convenient.  For many parts of this coast the winds are flukey in the summer, so you are motoring whether or not you have sails.  Also, there are a lot of nice fjords to explore, but the wind is often not blowing in the right direction down the narrow fjord and you just end up motoring anyway.  So, for pottering around an interesting coast with maybe 500nm a summer and an occasional 2000nm excursion, you could probably come out close in terms of fuel versus a new set of sails (remember you also have to account for the fuel you would be using anyway in your sailboat).  You also get a bit more living space compared to a sailboat of similar length. A sailboat is the right boat for me now, even in my early retirement I can see a lot of sailing time, but in my old age I think a displacement power cruiser would be a very nice fit. Darren On 14-12-24 05:16 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, I admit my experience with the fuel efficiency of motor boats is not that extensive.   I was taking a 45ish foot large interior boat driven at planing speed.  Certainly if one wants to go with much less fat, a sleaker narrow design and particularly if one wants to be below hull speed on a well-designed displacement hull, one can save tremendously in gas, but that is getting dangerously close to being a sailboat without sails.   It is true you do not have that great big inconvenient keel that keeps bumping into things, but gosh you might look at the same island for 30 minutes or an hour before you get past it and put it in your wake.   It would take a dreadful amount of time to get anywhere.   At that point it just seems to me you are admitting incompetence to not have a mast on it.   (Joke) The point I am making is, the goals and desires of most motor boat owners are working directly against fue l efficiency.   Even when one is not making 100% fashion-statement boats, one does make boats that are what people want to buy.   I am certain there are more fuel-efficient motor-cruisers out there, but you cannot water ski behind them, and there would be no room for all the guests, and they do not go fast enough for the least patient guest in high heels.   Even if it is not a fashion statement, it is still a point of pride for owners.  Looking limited in front of their not-boaty friends is a real concern.  The throb of that huge power plant, the instance rush of speed, the wind they create, that is their power.   All against fuel efficiency.  Fuel-efficient motor-cruisers are at risk of being replaced by all-solar boats in areas where there is enough sun.   There is potentially a lot of interesting design and engineering that can be done in that area.   Still, I do not understand why you would not put a mast on it in areas with wind and less sun.  If one wants a cruiser without boundaries, I do not understand why you would not put a mast on it.  If I had a motor cruiser I would find the bottom of my fuel tank to be my most limiting boundary, followed by my wallet.   With a sailboat I can trade time, intelligence, skill and tactics for money and remove nearly all practical limits on how far I can go. Isn't that an apt description of origami?   With origami I can trade time, intelligence, skill and tactics for money and remove nearly all practical limits on how far I can go.  I think Brent has a pure idea, origami and sail and motor auxiliary.   Any other combination is less pure.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 22:37:07 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats   Matt, you are looking at the wrong powerboats. Some are very fuel efficient. On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ?   I have looked at the fuel costs of 100% motor boats and one has to be fantastically wealthy to actually go anywhere in one fitted out for cruising.  $2,000 in fuel in a weekend.  I used $12 of fuel in a year sailing.  (But I do not run the engine for hot water or to generating electricity, I use solar for electricity and my stove to heat water.)   \ Fine, have a huge motor, and more of a motor-boat shape (which yes can be done with orgami), but, have the option for secondary propulsion by sails.   It makes a lot of sense.  It provides more options.  It extends your range.  While there are many boaters who are afraid of anything with a mast, I think the boat will appeal more t o some buyers for the reasons of cost, range and redundancy. Matt        To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:41:29 +0100 Subject: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats   Does anybody know if the origami method has been used for motor boats too? Any link? Thanks alex -- Cheers Brian | 31657|30737|2014-12-24 17:12:41|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|I once replaced the rudder on a Group  Finot designed 38 footer ( the same outfit  which designs Beneteaus and the round thre world racers whos keels keep dropping off, and once capsized tend to stay capsized)The 10 gauge skeg was simply welded tho the 10 gauge hull skin,with next to nothing  inside to back it up.I built  the  new skeg running right thru the hull and welded to the cockpit sole.To get the old rudder out ( built to the designers specs) , took a hydraulic jack.In his latest book "The complete guide to metal boats " by Bruce Roberts, who has never built, nor owned, nor maintained, nor cruised, long term in any metal boat, and thus knows next to nothing about them from  first hand experience, he writes  "If you make it( the skeg) too strong , you may sustain hull damage  in the event of a serious collision."  What he is saying is that he designs his  skegs to fall off if they  hit anything! That's like designing a car to have the wheels fall of if you take a corner too fast. No one with any long term open ocean cruising experince ( of which Roberts has none)would advocate such a stupid idea.| 31658|30737|2014-12-24 17:32:12|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|I just typed up along post on rudders then it just disappeared.Fuck it , I'll try again later| 31659|31644|2014-12-24 17:47:37|Alex Bar|Re: Origami motor boats|Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that!Alex2014-12-24 18:43 GMT+01:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   Rowboat, sailboat, motorsailer, motorboat, speedboat, etc. ;)))So, vessel using sails and motor is a motorsailer.Vessel propelled exclusively by motor at speeds close to hull speed is a motorboat.Most universal (in my opinion) shape is dory. I saw it done done from material range from plywood to 3/16 steel (rowboat, motorsailer, motorboat). Fishing dory motorboats with outboards a capable of landing on sand beach and drugging it from a beach to a trailer by pick up truck.Very close (in idea) to Origamiboat are Aluminum river fishing boats (Weldcraft, Raider, Alumacraft, Alumaweld, etc). Very practical design and have outboards (50-100hp). Something between motor and speedboat. All this is "trailerable" - up to 20-25 ft long. Recently saw work-boat made from 3/16 steel and outboard - 3 sheet constriction (sides and bottom).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ? | 31660|30737|2014-12-24 17:56:17|James Pronk|Re: Brent's boat building book|Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot.I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day!Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM   It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard.  That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat".  It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:   Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. | 31661|30737|2014-12-24 19:01:43|aguysailing|Re: Brent's boat building book|Back at ya James.  Into the sun, our new heading.Gary| 31662|31644|2014-12-25 04:51:19|Alex Bar|Re: Origami motor boats|What do you mean for "dory shape"?Alex2014-12-24 18:43 GMT+01:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   Rowboat, sailboat, motorsailer, motorboat, speedboat, etc. ;)))So, vessel using sails and motor is a motorsailer.Vessel propelled exclusively by motor at speeds close to hull speed is a motorboat.Most universal (in my opinion) shape is dory. I saw it done done from material range from plywood to 3/16 steel (rowboat, motorsailer, motorboat). Fishing dory motorboats with outboards a capable of landing on sand beach and drugging it from a beach to a trailer by pick up truck.Very close (in idea) to Origamiboat are Aluminum river fishing boats (Weldcraft, Raider, Alumacraft, Alumaweld, etc). Very practical design and have outboards (50-100hp). Something between motor and speedboat. All this is "trailerable" - up to 20-25 ft long. Recently saw work-boat made from 3/16 steel and outboard - 3 sheet constriction (sides and bottom).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Alex has made me think of a larger question.  What is a motorboat ?  Is it just a boat with no mast ?   Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ? | 31663|31644|2014-12-25 06:53:15|Hannu Venermo|Re: Origami motor boats|The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31664|31644|2014-12-25 08:28:23|James Pronk|Re: Origami motor boats|Hey, that frozen snot boat that I have been helping to do a few little fix-ups on is one of these."common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use.These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals."What kind of "professional" are you talking about? Professional con man, professional snake oil sales man?Sorry but my friend went on and on about this great boat that he bought, but once we opened Pandora's box that all changed. At this point he feels that it would have been better to scrap the boat.James From: Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origami motor boats Sent: Thu, Dec 25, 2014 11:53:11 AM   The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31665|30737|2014-12-25 11:49:26|mountain man|Re: Brent's boat building book| On this video you see why ''modern'' yachts are so expensive;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYVhrDwU_oIf you apply the same principles as in the video to smaller yachts you end up with an expensive and complicated productTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot.I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day!Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM   It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard.  That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat".  It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:   Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. | 31666|30737|2014-12-25 11:53:25|mountain man|Re: Brent's boat building book| I wonder how much more a yacht would cost if big companies (Beneteau, Hunter...) would mass product some in steel,maybe they could make a die and punch the two half of the hull in one shot ,to get a round hull like the plastic ones,anyway, they would not sell; people want plastic...like margarine containers you buy at the grocery...MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot.I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day!Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM   It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard.  That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat".  It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:   Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. | 31667|31644|2014-12-25 13:11:06|wild_explorer|Re: Origami motor boats|Dory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Dory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The dory is a small, shallow-draft boat, about 5 to 7 metres or 16 to 23 feet long. It is usually a lightweight boat with high sides, a flat bottom and sharp bows. ... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What do you mean for "dory shape"?Alex| 31668|30737|2014-12-26 10:12:50|syannopoulos|Re: Brent's boat building book|Actually this was done for lifeboats as early as the first decade of the 1900's.: the two sides would be stamped out and then riveted together. on some of the old Sabb ads for lifeboat motors you can see the riveted boats that were built that way into the 50's or 60's.Getting an even steel thickness from a large  and very curvy stamping is not easy: there are firms that can do int, particularly in aluminum using variable compression presses ( basically a huge cnc partial stamper) but this is very expensive specialty equipment, used in defense fabrication, and cannot see any volume that would justify it in the yacht market:Possibly as a subcontract from a major yacht builder to fill in around other work, could be done, though the electronic and prototype "tooling" costs would equal most FRP tooling, at a guess.| 31669|30737|2014-12-26 11:28:12|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Re: Brent's boat building book| Professional builders just do not understand the concept nor the advantages. I do not see why, but I have tried several times and no taker.    Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112     -----Original Message----- From: syannopoulos@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, Dec 26, 2014 10:12 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   Actually this was done for lifeboats as early as the first decade of the 1900's.: the two sides would be stamped out and then riveted together. on some of the old Sabb ads for lifeboat motors you can see the riveted boats that were built that way into the 50's or 60's. Getting an even steel thickness from a large  and very curvy stamping is not easy: there are firms that can do int, particularly in aluminum using variable compression presses ( basically a huge cnc partial stamper) but this is very expensive specialty equipment, used in defense fabrication, and cannot see any volume that would justify it in the yacht market: Possibly as a subcontract from a major yacht builder to fill in around other work, could be done, though the electronic and prototype "tooling" costs would equal most FRP tooling, at a guess. | 31670|31670|2014-12-26 14:52:51|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Digest Number 4538|Origami Motor BoatsWhat happened to that 36' Origami motor boat being built in central Europe.I don't think the Dutch do Origami but they  have been building all sizes of boats in steel,and iron before that,for over a century,and a lot of the smaller yachts have a definite "pulled to shape" look about the geometryHappy new year to everyoneAndrew Airey On Friday, 26 December 2014, 9:27:35, "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 6 Messages Digest #4538 1a Re: Origami motor boats by "Alex Bar" 1b Re: Origami motor boats by "Hannu Venermo" hvenermo 1c Re: Origami motor boats by "James Pronk" jpronk1 1d Re: Origami motor boats by wild_explorer 2.1 Re: Brent's boat building book by "mountain man" inter4905 2.2 Re: Brent's boat building book by "mountain man" inter4905 Messages 1a Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:51 am (PST) . Posted by: "Alex Bar" What do you mean for "dory shape"? Alex 2014-12-24 18:43 GMT+01:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Rowboat, sailboat, motorsailer, motorboat, speedboat, etc. ;))) > > So, vessel using sails and motor is a motorsailer. > Vessel propelled exclusively by motor at speeds close to hull speed is a > motorboat. > > Most universal (in my opinion) shape is dory. I saw it done done from > material range from plywood to 3/16 steel (rowboat, motorsailer, > motorboat). Fishing dory motorboats with outboards a capable of landing on > sand beach and drugging it from a beach to a trailer by pick up truck. > > Very close (in idea) to Origamiboat are Aluminum river fishing boats > (Weldcraft, Raider, Alumacraft, Alumaweld, etc). Very practical design and > have outboards (50-100hp). Something between motor and speedboat. All this > is "trailerable" - up to 20-25 ft long. > > Recently saw work-boat made from 3/16 steel and outboard - 3 sheet > constriction (sides and bottom). > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > > Alex has made me think of a larger question. What is a motorboat ? Is it > just a boat with no mast ? Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and > that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ? > > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 1b Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:53 am (PST) . Posted by: "Hannu Venermo" hvenermo The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 1c Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:28 am (PST) . Posted by: "James Pronk" jpronk1 Hey, that frozen snot boat that I have been helping to do a few little fix-ups on is one of these. "common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. " What kind of "professional& quot; are you talking about? Professional con man, professional snake oil sales man? Sorry but my friend went on and on about this great boat that he bought, but once we opened Pandora' s box that all changed. At this point he feels that it would have been better to scrap the boat. James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 1d Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:11 am (PST) . Posted by: wild_explorer Dory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory Dory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory The dory is a small, shallow-draft boat, about 5 to 7 metres or 16 to 23 feet long. It is usually a lightweight boat with high sides, a flat bottom and sharp bows. ... View on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory Preview by Yahoo ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : What do you mean for "dory shape"? Alex Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 2.1 Re: Brent's boat building book Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:49 am (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 On this video you see why ''modern'' yachts are so expensive;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYVhrDwU_oIf you apply the same principles as in the video to smaller yachts you end up with an expensive and complicated product To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot. I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day! Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard. That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat". It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]: Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use. I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage. Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock. That happened to the boat we chartered. We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier. Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat. Put a nice gouge in the hull. Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line. Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement. When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging, and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together, and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing about what is hidden behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements" . They are often done as a distraction. I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (49) . Top ^ 2.2 Re: Brent's boat building book Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:53 am (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 I wonder how much more a yacht would cost if big companies (Beneteau, Hunter...) would mass product some in steel,maybe they could make a die and punch the two half of the hull in one shot ,to get a round hull like the plastic ones,anyway, they would not sell; people want plastic...like margarine containers you buy at the grocery... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot. I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day! Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard. That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat". It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]: Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use. I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage. Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock. That happened to the boat we chartered. We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier. Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat. Put a nice gouge in the hull. Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line. Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement. When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging, and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together, and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing about what is hidden behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements" . They are often done as a distraction. I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (49) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group New Members 3 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 31671|30737|2014-12-26 16:05:11|opuspaul|Re: Brent's boat building book|I agree with Matt.   People love to compare apple and oranges.   There are a  lot of terribly built boats out there no matter what the material.   My first choice would be a good metal boat but some of them are plated too thinly and then covered with filler.   I think if I hit some debris at hull speed with them they may not stand up.   I have known steel boats to sink at the dock from poor paint jobs and poor maintenance.  I would rather have a good fiberglass boat than any one of those.   So no matter what the material, quality is king.The way people talk, there are no good fiberglass boats.  Some of the cheap glass boats are death traps which I would never sail out of site of land but there are some excellent semi-custom or homebuilt glass boats.   Even though she was lightly built, Great Britain II was a foam and glass racer built in 1973 that has crossed the Atlantic probably 50 times and gone around the world now 6 times.  She has certainly got the job done.  http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Volvo-Legends:-Great-Britain-II---Her-builders-story/90648 I know of one cruiser (Wright 51) that has now done three circumnavigations.    She is certainly a very tough and well built boat.   It's hull is foam core with 8mm (?) thick glass on either side.   It may not survive grinding on reef or a beach for a month but I would go in it anywhere.  The problem with these kind of glass boats is not that they are unsafe, it is the labor and the cost.  It would cost a fortune to build like that now.  It makes much more sense to custom build a metal boat or buy used but likening all glass boats as "snot" is not being fair or realistic.Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard.  That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat".  It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book  As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:  Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:  The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites)..#ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1807711297 #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525 .ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1807711297ygrps-yiv-1783921525ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31672|31672|2014-12-27 03:40:36|Alex Bar|Yves Marie De TantonTanton "Origami yacht"|I remember quite along time ago a new origami design from Yves-Marie de Tanton. We could see it during the building process but I've never seen the finished yacht.Is it possible?ThanksAlex2014-12-26 17:28 GMT+01:00 'Yves-Marie R. de Tanton' Tantonyachts@... [origamiboats] :   Professional builders just do not understand the concept nor the advantages. I do not see why, but I have tried several times and no taker.    Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112     -----Original Message----- From: syannopoulos@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, Dec 26, 2014 10:12 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book   Actually this was done for lifeboats as early as the first decade of the 1900's.: the two sides would be stamped out and then riveted together. on some of the old Sabb ads for lifeboat motors you can see the riveted boats that were built that way into the 50's or 60's. Getting an even steel thickness from a large  and very curvy stamping is not easy: there are firms that can do int, particularly in aluminum using variable compression presses ( basically a huge cnc partial stamper) but this is very expensive specialty equipment, used in defense fabrication, and cannot see any volume that would justify it in the yacht market: Possibly as a subcontract from a major yacht builder to fill in around other work, could be done, though the electronic and prototype "tooling" costs would equal most FRP tooling, at a guess. | 31673|31644|2014-12-28 03:26:04|Alex Bar|Re: Origami motor boats|I wonder why there isn't a model of yacht not extreme like a plastic sailing yacht and not so extreme like a steel cruising yacht.Something in between good for both purposes.Alex2014-12-25 12:53 GMT+01:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31674|31674|2014-12-28 10:51:47|salleymo|Plan design modifications|Ok, so, i am new to the site and am enjoying what i have found.I have a couple questions about possibilities with these designs.It seems that the smallest brentboat is the 26 with 1/8" hull.can it be stretched a couple feet without going to 3/16 like the 31'?What is most practical, what is usually done?  Any regrets either way?The largest talked about seems to be the 40' with 3/16 hull.  Not including the Hugo project.Can the stock design be stretched 4 feet without major changes in safety factor? Perhaps using a % formula?How many 40's have been built? any reports on their sailing characteristics?I am trying to read the other post. I think i saw or read about a stretched 26? What would the practical safety limitation be for the 1/8" hull.?same thing with the 40' limitations with the 3/16" hull?  Any help or pointers to such topics would be appreciated.Thanks so much| 31675|31674|2014-12-29 14:57:38|brentswain38|Re: Plan design modifications|The 26 Winston sailed thru the NW passage was stretched to 27 ft, as was his daughters boat. I don't know how they did it.  You can simply scale up 12% with no problems . Any more than that and the porportions  get screwed up. You can also just space the stations at greater distances without increasing the beam, with no problems. Things stay in porportion that way, altho the beam gets less for its lenght.Many larger boats are made with 1/8th inch plate, but keeping things fair gets much harder with thinner plate, and you have much less margin should corrosion set in. I have seen many boats made of 1/8th plate which became a write off, which could have gone many more years and been salvageable had they been 3/16th plate---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ok, so, i am new to the site and am enjoying what i have found.I have a couple questions about possibilities with these designs.It seems that the smallest brentboat is the 26 with 1/8" hull.can it be stretched a couple feet without going to 3/16 like the 31'?What is most practical, what is usually done?  Any regrets either way?The largest talked about seems to be the 40' with 3/16 hull.  Not including the Hugo project.Can the stock design be stretched 4 feet without major changes in safety factor? Perhaps using a % formula?How many 40's have been built? any reports on their sailing characteristics?I am trying to read the other post. I think i saw or read about a stretched 26? What would the practical safety limitation be for the 1/8" hull.?same thing with the 40' limitations with the 3/16" hull?  Any help or pointers to such topics would be appreciated.Thanks so much| 31676|31674|2014-12-29 15:05:20|brentswain38|Re: Plan design modifications|I wouldn't stretch the 40 as it has already been scaled up. I have sold a lot of plans for the 40, but have no idea how many have been built. I met one at Fanning Island which continued on to New Zealand and back to BC. He was very happy with her performance . She is extremely well balanced and makes good time on passages . Another ,built in Aluminium, currently on Saltspring Island , just returned from a trip to Australian and back. He was very happy with her performance,  out sailing many boats he was not supposed to out sail.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ok, so, i am new to the site and am enjoying what i have found.I have a couple questions about possibilities with these designs.It seems that the smallest brentboat is the 26 with 1/8" hull.can it be stretched a couple feet without going to 3/16 like the 31'?What is most practical, what is usually done?  Any regrets either way?The largest talked about seems to be the 40' with 3/16 hull.  Not including the Hugo project.Can the stock design be stretched 4 feet without major changes in safety factor? Perhaps using a % formula?How many 40's have been built? any reports on their sailing characteristics?I am trying to read the other post. I think i saw or read about a stretched 26? What would the practical safety limitation be for the 1/8" hull.?same thing with the 40' limitations with the 3/16" hull?  Any help or pointers to such topics would be appreciated.Thanks so much| 31677|31644|2014-12-29 15:09:26|brentswain38|Re: Origami motor boats|What do you mean by " Extreme?" I wouldn't move too far from "Extremely practical!" nor "extremely safe,"nor "Extremely logical".  I don't see the point.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wonder why there isn't a model of yacht not extreme like a plastic sailing yacht and not so extreme like a steel cruising yacht.Something in between good for both purposes.Alex2014-12-25 12:53 GMT+01:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :  The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31678|31674|2014-12-29 16:27:26|rhko47|Re: Plan design modifications|I am the person who posted some years back about stretching the 26' design to 28'.  Brent had earlier stated that his designs could be scaled up (or presumably down) by up to 10%.  I simply took the dimensions from the plans and expanded them by a factor of 28/26, which changed the layout on the steel sheets a little, but nothing significant.  I believe that the altered design would have produced a more useful vessel with better headroom and more potential for a livable accommodation than the original design, at least for taller sailors. As far as I went, there did not seem to be anything wrong with the concept, only my execution, owing solely to misconceptions and errors of my own, so that I concluded I could not make a satisfactory job of the project after all.I acquired a bare hull of the 35' steel Departure design by Charles Wittholz, the only designer I can ever recall Brent complimenting, which had sat in a barn, flame sprayed on the outside and epoxied inside and out and foamed, since about 1985.  The lead which had been intended for its ballast had been stolen, and my intention is to cut up the plate of the forlorn 28' project and fit it into the keel of the larger vessel.  Far from finished, but I have more confidence in the vessel that will result than what I would have built from scratch.I have some components, including a one cylinder 8 hp Yanmar engine/transmission, that would be suitable for a 26' but do not transfer over to the larger vessel, twice the displacement. Rich| 31679|31670|2014-12-29 17:27:24|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 4538|I have sent plans to Holland had have read an article in a Dutch magazine about one of my 36 footers being built there.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Origami Motor BoatsWhat happened to that 36' Origami motor boat being built in central Europe.I don't think the Dutch do Origami but they  have been building all sizes of boats in steel,and iron before that,for over a century,and a lot of the smaller yachts have a definite "pulled to shape" look about the geometryHappy new year to everyoneAndrew Airey On Friday, 26 December 2014, 9:27:35, "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 6 Messages Digest #4538 1a Re: Origami motor boats by "Alex Bar" 1b Re: Origami motor boats by "Hannu Venermo" hvenermo 1c Re: Origami motor boats by "James Pronk" jpronk1 1d Re: Origami motor boats by wild_explorer 2.1 Re: Brent's boat building book by "mountain man" inter4905 2.2 Re: Brent's boat building book by "mountain man" inter4905 Messages 1a Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:51 am (PST) . Posted by: "Alex Bar" What do you mean for "dory shape"? Alex 2014-12-24 18:43 GMT+01:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Rowboat, sailboat, motorsailer, motorboat, speedboat, etc. ;))) > > So, vessel using sails and motor is a motorsailer. > Vessel propelled exclusively by motor at speeds close to hull speed is a > motorboat. > > Most universal (in my opinion) shape is dory. I saw it done done from > material range from plywood to 3/16 steel (rowboat, motorsailer, > motorboat). Fishing dory motorboats with outboards a capable of landing on > sand beach and drugging it from a beach to a trailer by pick up truck. > > Very close (in idea) to Origamiboat are Aluminum river fishing boats > (Weldcraft, Raider, Alumacraft, Alumaweld, etc). Very practical design and > have outboards (50-100hp). Something between motor and speedboat. All this > is "trailerable" - up to 20-25 ft long. > > Recently saw work-boat made from 3/16 steel and outboard - 3 sheet > constriction (sides and bottom). > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > > Alex has made me think of a larger question. What is a motorboat ? Is it > just a boat with no mast ? Or is it a boat with a much larger motor and > that may also have the option of secondary propulsion as sails ? > > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 1b Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:53 am (PST) . Posted by: "Hannu Venermo" hvenermo The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 1c Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:28 am (PST) . Posted by: "James Pronk" jpronk1 Hey, that frozen snot boat that I have been helping to do a few little fix-ups on is one of these. "common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. " What kind of "professional& quot; are you talking about? Professional con man, professional snake oil sales man? Sorry but my friend went on and on about this great boat that he bought, but once we opened Pandora' s box that all changed. At this point he feels that it would have been better to scrap the boat. James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 1d Re: Origami motor boats Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:11 am (PST) . Posted by: wild_explorer Dory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory Dory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory The dory is a small, shallow-draft boat, about 5 to 7 metres or 16 to 23 feet long. It is usually a lightweight boat with high sides, a flat bottom and sharp bows. ... View on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory Preview by Yahoo ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : What do you mean for "dory shape"? Alex Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 2.1 Re: Brent's boat building book Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:49 am (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 On this video you see why ''modern'' yachts are so expensive;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYVhrDwU_oIf you apply the same principles as in the video to smaller yachts you end up with an expensive and complicated product To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot. I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day! Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard. That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat". It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]: Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use. I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage. Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock. That happened to the boat we chartered. We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier. Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat. Put a nice gouge in the hull. Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line. Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement. When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging, and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together, and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing about what is hidden behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements" . They are often done as a distraction. I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (49) . Top ^ 2.2 Re: Brent's boat building book Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:53 am (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 I wonder how much more a yacht would cost if big companies (Beneteau, Hunter...) would mass product some in steel,maybe they could make a die and punch the two half of the hull in one shot ,to get a round hull like the plastic ones,anyway, they would not sell; people want plastic...like margarine containers you buy at the grocery... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot. I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day! Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard. That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat". It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]: Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use. I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage. Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock. That happened to the boat we chartered. We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier. Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat. Put a nice gouge in the hull. Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line. Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement. When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging, and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together, and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing about what is hidden behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements" . They are often done as a distraction. I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (49) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group New Members 3 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 31680|31644|2014-12-30 06:29:19|Alex Bar|Re: Origami motor boats|I mean a metal yacht pratical, safe and logical with modern shape, more volume, more outside and inside liveable space, made not to be self builded but builded by professionals.Alex2014-12-29 21:09 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   What do you mean by " Extreme?" I wouldn't move too far from "Extremely practical!" nor "extremely safe,"nor "Extremely logical".  I don't see the point.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wonder why there isn't a model of yacht not extreme like a plastic sailing yacht and not so extreme like a steel cruising yacht.Something in between good for both purposes.Alex2014-12-25 12:53 GMT+01:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :  The "design" part re: origami-motor-hull is irrelevant. The time/cost/desirability/ability equation is not there .. thus few are built. There are many people who want a "cruising" boat. For many, perhaps 95%, cruising is never much undertaken, and thus the expectations and desires are not tested and not used in the real world. An origami-type hull could easily be built for a Diesel Duck type motor-boat (troller), or a Nordhavn, or a FPB. All are common, succesful, designs with dozens to 100+ hulls in use. These are also high-cost builds, done very well by professionals. Some DD are done by amateurs- and some are done very well (in fiberglass or wood). In all examples above; -the hulls are large, heavy, strong with large interior volume. -systems cost is high -total work-hour cost is very high If you are planning to actually live on the boat, with household comforts, for a long amount of time, all sorts of stuff become important. Fuel costs are not a decisive item. There is an excellent analysis of this at setsail.com, showing how a large sailboat is more expensive than the FPB motorboat. The very good, succesful, origami boats are based on (low or)-no-hotel-loads minimalistic designs. If you want to add hotel loads, it then changes the system quite a lot. The majority of people who actually live on boats long-term, stay in some area. Perhaps 90% to 98% of all "cruisers". In many parts of the world, this cannot be done cheaply- as its simply not possible, and or legal, and or safe, and is enforced in many ways. Thus, marinas, often very expensive, are mandatory. Moorings are impossible, illegal, or impractical. Etc. The maybe 2% who move around long term dont care too much about saving money, as they have enough disposable income. They care about having pressurised hot and cold water, tools, clothes washers, dinghies, tv, household comforts, and so on. I agree very much on Brents filosophy, and technical solutions to lots of things. I also agree on the technical inferiority of lots of installs on so-called cruising boats. Yet, for occasional sailing, they are fine, and indeed maybe 99.9% of all sailing is done by these plastic boats. They are fine for sailing, much less so for cruising, but because they are not really used for cruising it does not matter in the real world. On 24/12/2014 23:47, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Wait a minute! So, what I can understand is that nobody has thought to > design a motor boat with origami method so far? I can't belive that! > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31681|31644|2014-12-30 06:43:03|Hannu Venermo|Re: Origami motor boats|Because the people who can afford one, wont want to buy one. It does not make financial sense, although technically it would be "better". A perfect solution, imho, would be an FPB (best production cruising boat, imo, see setsail.com) built in steel, cheaply, without the very high cost of brand name items. (5 pladed props is an exampe. A much cheaper 3 blade would be a better option. And so on..) It would likely cost about 1/4 the price of a FPB in the similar size. Could be done cheaper, but then aesthetics or engineering would start to suffer. An FPB 64 is about 3M$, iirc. I seem to remember a similar sized Nordhavn is about half that. The nordie will have more volume and displacement. Resale value is an imprtant item for people with the financial capacity to buy those things. Thus, many things are done that dont make strict practical sense. Using not suitable refrigerators, ie SubZero, on Nordhavns is an example. They are inefficient, and use large amounts of power to defrost, etc. Large amounts of electronics is another item. You dont really need them, but wealthy owners "want them". An avg full electronics refit is about 150.000$ on Nordhavn, iirc from someplace. Done, on avg. every 8 years. A gps chartplotter, vhf and a compass will get you anywhere in the world. After that, its just "I-want-it" shiny kit syndrome. Nothing wrong with that - if you accept that they are toys and bought mostly for amusement value. About 50% of all pleasure boats in the world are sold in the us. Thus, the us market and us consumers pretty much drive the industry- as they are the single main, solid, demographic. Everyone else is very fragmented and has little market effect. This may change in the near future (5-15 years) with asian markets. On 28/12/2014 09:26, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I wonder why there isn't a model of yacht not extreme like a plastic > sailing yacht and not so extreme like a steel cruising yacht. > Something in between good for both purposes. > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31682|30737|2014-12-30 15:53:10|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|That is why so many are going bankrupt; refusal to accept, or seek  better ways of doing things.  Steel's potential for innovation , and far quicker, better and more modern building methods has been largely ignored .Instead they have cluing doggedly to imitation wooden boat building methods. I have seen many go belly up that way over the years , while I am as busy as ever, after nearly 40 years of selling plans and books. Most new steel bots round here are extremely expensive, and thus rule out a huge portion of the boat owner population from considering steel as a option. If commercial builders would consider other methods of reducing the time and thus expense of their boats, they could be chosen by a much larger number of potential customers.It seems only me and Van de Stadt have bothered to question wooden boat building methods for steel.As Einstien said, "Insanity is repeating the same experiment over and over again , hoping for a different result." Traditional boat building methods have made metal boats so expensive that their builders keep going bankrupt over and over again, due to lack of people who can afford them. Do they believe they can keep repeating this experiment, and ever get different results?When I sold my last boat, the buyer told me he always wanted a steel boat , but seeing the prices for good ones ,  he assumed he could never afford one in his lifetime. How many other cruisers out there felt the sameColvin estimates 1,000 hours to build a hull and deck, something I have done in under 100 hours.At shop rates, that tips the balance for  a lot of would be customers.For shop production I can see many ways to drop the costs even further. One can CAD everything, including the interior, drastically reducing costs and time. I can see a lot of jigs, and other tools  being made up for repeated use, again drastically reducing time and costs.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Professional builders just do not understand the concept nor the advantages. I do not see why, but I have tried several times and no taker.   Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112  -----Original Message----- From: syannopoulos@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, Dec 26, 2014 10:12 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book  Actually this was done for lifeboats as early as the first decade of the 1900's.: the two sides would be stamped out and then riveted together. on some of the old Sabb ads for lifeboat motors you can see the riveted boats that were built that way into the 50's or 60's.Getting an even steel thickness from a large  and very curvy stamping is not easy: there are firms that can do int, particularly in aluminum using variable compression presses ( basically a huge cnc partial stamper) but this is very expensive specialty equipment, used in defense fabrication, and cannot see any volume that would justify it in the yacht market:Possibly as a subcontract from a major yacht builder to fill in around other work, could be done, though the electronic and prototype "tooling" costs would equal most FRP tooling, at a guess.| 31683|30737|2014-12-30 16:01:51|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|Many of the cruisers I havr met would prefer aMay of the cruisers I have met would prefer steel , but were forced to settle for plastic , due to the lack of good, affordable steel boats. Any commercial builder who provided them with good affordable steel boats would have a captive market, to a large degree.In many South seas anchorages I have been in, steel boats outnumbered  plastic . Europeans overwhelmingly chose steel, especially those with a lot of experience. When I sold my last boat , a marine cop told me "Anyone who would buy a Catalina wouldn't be interested in your boat, and anyone who would buy your boat wouldn't be interestred in a Catalina."---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That is why so many are going bankrupt; refusal to accept, or seek  better ways of doing things.  Steel's potential for innovation , and far quicker, better and more modern building methods has been largely ignored .Instead they have cluing doggedly to imitation wooden boat building methods. I have seen many go belly up that way over the years , while I am as busy as ever, after nearly 40 years of selling plans and books. Most new steel bots round here are extremely expensive, and thus rule out a huge portion of the boat owner population from considering steel as a option. If commercial builders would consider other methods of reducing the time and thus expense of their boats, they could be chosen by a much larger number of potential customers.It seems only me and Van de Stadt have bothered to question wooden boat building methods for steel.As Einstien said, "Insanity is repeating the same experiment over and over again , hoping for a different result." Traditional boat building methods have made metal boats so expensive that their builders keep going bankrupt over and over again, due to lack of people who can afford them. Do they believe they can keep repeating this experiment, and ever get different results?When I sold my last boat, the buyer told me he always wanted a steel boat , but seeing the prices for good ones ,  he assumed he could never afford one in his lifetime. How many other cruisers out there felt the sameColvin estimates 1,000 hours to build a hull and deck, something I have done in under 100 hours.At shop rates, that tips the balance for  a lot of would be customers.For shop production I can see many ways to drop the costs even further. One can CAD everything, including the interior, drastically reducing costs and time. I can see a lot of jigs, and other tools  being made up for repeated use, again drastically reducing time and costs.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Professional builders just do not understand the concept nor the advantages. I do not see why, but I have tried several times and no taker.   Tanton Yachts. Yacht Design. Naval Architecture. Marine Engineering. New Construction. Brokerage. Est. 1974 Http://www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com Http://www.tantonyachts.com Tel: (401) 847 4112  -----Original Message----- From: syannopoulos@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, Dec 26, 2014 10:12 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book  Actually this was done for lifeboats as early as the first decade of the 1900's.: the two sides would be stamped out and then riveted together. on some of the old Sabb ads for lifeboat motors you can see the riveted boats that were built that way into the 50's or 60's.Getting an even steel thickness from a large  and very curvy stamping is not easy: there are firms that can do int, particularly in aluminum using variable compression presses ( basically a huge cnc partial stamper) but this is very expensive specialty equipment, used in defense fabrication, and cannot see any volume that would justify it in the yacht market:Possibly as a subcontract from a major yacht builder to fill in around other work, could be done, though the electronic and prototype "tooling" costs would equal most FRP tooling, at a guess.| 31684|30737|2014-12-30 16:37:21|brentswain38|Re: Brent's boat building book|Can you imagine trying to sail that keel thru a kelp bed, or encountering a fishing net at night, off a lee shore? Can you imagine trying to find replacement parts for it in remote cruising areas? That is something your computer calculations wont tell you about. Nor will $150 an hour  designers who have no hands on cruising experience.Will having  a boat so complex make you any happier than the people who put in a few kero lamps, kept things simple,  and just spent the extra money on cruising time and freedom from the treadmill? Not a chance!What I don't like is seeing people getting suckered into believing they have to be rich enough to afford all that crap,before they can go cruising.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}On this video you see why ''modern'' yachts are so expensive;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYVhrDwU_oIf you apply the same principles as in the video to smaller yachts you end up with an expensive and complicated productTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:56:10 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Steel trumps frozen snot everytime in my book! Helped a friend do a little work on his boat, reattaching old bulkheads where the snot let go. Changing bulkheads that have rotted out from leaking decks. Cutting out layers of delaminated glass and laying up new layers of glass and snot.I would sooner sandblast weld up holes and repaint any day!Happy winter solstice everyone. James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 2:50:10 PM  It is not hard for a successful design, steel, amateur welding and attention to detail to exceed that standard.  That is the problem with saying "its a fibreglass boat".  It is like saying I have a piece of line -- I have told you nothing of any importance or meaning. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:53:10 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's boat building book  As a boatbuilder, I used to work as the highseason troubleshooter for a number of different companies chartering brandf***ing new boats in the 40-to-60 feet range all around the Med, what is merely a pond than an ocean.What You describe is a sort of use slightly beneath the use those floating condos were originally meant for, to put it mildly. Some of the companies already write down in their charter contracts "... no sailing in gales of 5 Bft or more ..." ;-/I did some hotfoot serious deliveries of absof***inglutely brandf***ing new boats, never sailed before, some of it in "Regatta-Version", and we had falling apart so unimportant things like the steering/rudderpost which once came out of the snot in one piece as a completely unharmed sparepart the company offered to refix without additional costs when we complained ...I literally lost a hatch overboard once, once ripped a winch out of the deck with some squareinches of lightweight sandwichdeck still securely bolted underneath and saw come loose all interesting parts like whole sides of the fence, pushpits, pulpits, anchorwinches, docking cleats, and once even a maststep, the latter in a Maestrale less than 8 Bft just from sailing upwind towards Imperia over short chopped waves of 2 feet ...'No sailing in gales of 3 Bft and over' would probably suit better to those nowadays plastic condos.I recommend building, or at least rebuilding from keel, with an extra payed external supervisor the owner-to-come really have reason to trust when it comes to hull and integral parts of the boat.And the outfit ... even completely lefthanded key-accountans and hairdressers who may never have used a jigsaw or a screwdriver before are able to outfit their boats in a quality better than most of the new stock-yachts sold around the Med these days, as long as they are prepared to read the f***ing manuals of jigsaw, welder and magic bondo they are about to use.(No disrespect of key-accountants or hairdressers or lefthanders meant!)Cheers G_BAm 23.12.2014 um 21:21 schrieb j fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]:  Brent,You should see the damage to the rental/charter boats from use.  I have looked at a few when chartering and they all had some sort of hull damage.  Either from lift slings or being propped up in the yard during hurricane season, or simply being run into other boats while at the dock.  That happened to the boat we chartered.  We were turning it in at the end of the charter and were docked at the end of a pier.  Another boat came in to pick up a captain and hit our boat.  Put a nice gouge in the hull.  Then when they were stacking the boats on the dock, they didnt quite all fit, so they loosened the lines on a few boats and used more motor to squeeze one more in line.  Steel is the only way to go for long term cruising.On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:  The nice thing about building your own boat is it is an interest free , pay as you go arrangement.  When money runs low, you can simply do the inexpensive, labour intensive parts, and scrounging,  and put off buying til you are more affluent. Meanwhile, you are still making progress, while evading the biggest parasites of all, those who live off interest they charge you for the use of money, which can double the cost of a boat. A broker just told me that all  the good boats have been scooped, and the market is picking up again, making building your own a lot more practical. A home built boat is a custom built boat, without wondering how she is really put together,  and what the builder had in mind here, or what he did behind there. The fanciest "fashion statement" interior or paint jobs tell you nothing  about what is hidden  behind it. They often hide a lot of screwups, which are far more important in the long run than "Fashion statements". They are often done as a distraction.I remember seeing a Foulkes 39 at the boat show. All along the waterline was a sheet of paper, trying to hide what was below the waterline. People were going aboard , checking out the interior and signing the cheques without checking what was below the waterline. I checked and found some horrendous screwups. The salesman was very annoyed at anyone checking below the waterline. That was not allowed, and not supposed to happen. Thanks for the backup. I sure would appreciate a bit of it on other sites (Many of which I have been banned from, for giving too much information on how to avoid the parasites).. #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-701244859 #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357 .ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-701244859ygrps-yiv-1668834357ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31685|31644|2014-12-31 05:48:42|deniswig|Re: Origami motor boats|Ye are a dry lot –happy Christmas and happy New Year from Ireland –I would not have it said that there was nobody in the origamiboats community who was aware of the outside world.Slan Denis| 31686|31644|2014-12-31 06:59:40|James Pronk|Re: Origami motor boats|Happy New Year to you all!James From: denis@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami motor boats Sent: Wed, Dec 31, 2014 10:48:40 AM   Ye are a dry lot –happy Christmas and happy New Year from Ireland –I would not have it said that there was nobody in the origamiboats community who was aware of the outside world.Slan Denis | 31687|31687|2014-12-31 14:20:52|Stew Peters|Book and video|Hi Brent.  I'm new to the group.  How do I Get a copy of your book and video?ThanksStew Peters| 31688|31688|2015-01-02 15:27:40|inter4905|poured sockets pipe lenght|Brent,At how long do you cut the 3\4in.  schedule 40 pipe used to make the poured sockets?Thanks, Martin.| 31689|31688|2015-01-02 18:04:27|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|About 2 inches long works. Then I cut  a V out of one side and hammer it into a cone shape, Then I weld the cut and , put  the loop , of rod or square bar over the seam and fully weld it. Making the loop long gives you more room to work with.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,At how long do you cut the 3\4in.  schedule 40 pipe used to make the poured sockets?Thanks, Martin.| 31690|31687|2015-01-02 18:06:55|brentswain38|Re: Book and video|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Brent.  I'm new to the group.  How do I Get a copy of your book and video?Thanks For a copy of my book, please send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian postage, $10 for US postage, or $20 for overseas airmail postage , to 3798  Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0| 31691|31687|2015-01-02 18:08:19|brentswain38|Re: Book and video|For the video, contact Alex at achristie@...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Brent.  I'm new to the group.  How do I Get a copy of your book and video?Thanks For a copy of my book, please send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian postage, $10 for US postage, or $20 for overseas airmail postage , to 3798  Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0| 31692|31688|2015-01-02 19:00:41|mountain man|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght| Ok thanks.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 15:04:27 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   About 2 inches long works. Then I cut  a V out of one side and hammer it into a cone shape, Then I weld the cut and , put  the loop , of rod or square bar over the seam and fully weld it. Making the loop long gives you more room to work with.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,At how long do you cut the 3\4in.  schedule 40 pipe used to make the poured sockets?Thanks, Martin. | 31693|31688|2015-01-03 18:02:22|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|When you push the wire thru the poured socket, be sure to bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back in , before doing the pouring. If you don't, they will pull out. A wet rage around the wire stops the zinc from flowing right thru.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Ok thanks.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 15:04:27 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  About 2 inches long works. Then I cut  a V out of one side and hammer it into a cone shape, Then I weld the cut and , put  the loop , of rod or square bar over the seam and fully weld it. Making the loop long gives you more room to work with.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,At how long do you cut the 3\4in.  schedule 40 pipe used to make the poured sockets?Thanks, Martin.#ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-107884149 #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711 .ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-107884149ygrps-yiv-2106869711ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31694|31688|2015-01-03 20:17:58|James Pronk|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|What size wire do you use for the rigging on one of your 36'? From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Sent: Sat, Jan 3, 2015 11:02:21 PM   When you push the wire thru the poured socket, be sure to bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back in , before doing the pouring. If you don't, they will pull out. A wet rage around the wire stops the zinc from flowing right thru.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ok thanks.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 15:04:27 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  About 2 inches long works. Then I cut  a V out of one side and hammer it into a cone shape, Then I weld the cut and , put  the loop , of rod or square bar over the seam and fully weld it. Making the loop long gives you more room to work with.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,At how long do you cut the 3\4in.  schedule 40 pipe used to make the poured sockets?Thanks, Martin. | 31695|31688|2015-01-05 14:58:15|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|I use 5/16th 1x7 galv high tensile.  Make sure it is high tensile. The soft stuff is 1/4 the strength, and bends like lead. If it is super springy ,it is high tensile, 11,500 pounds tensile strength.| 31696|31696|2015-01-05 18:55:36|brentswain38|Steel mast for a 36| Andy Deering , after several Pacific crossings and 20,000 miles of cruising, on a 36 ft brentboat, found a broken aluminium mast in a scrapyard. So he put it together and made the conversion from his 6 inch OD steel mast. He said the difference in sailing,  was barely noticeable. So now he has the steel mast for sale .  He is in Port Townsend Wa at svindefatigable@...Such a deal! I'd hate to see it scrapped| 31697|31696|2015-01-07 06:10:23|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel mast for a 36|As a matter of interest.. Is there a preference for alu or steel in a mast ? Alu and steel are about equal in terms of mass/bend strength/rigidity. Steel is much easyer to weld and 1/3 the cost of alu per mass. Alu does not need painting, and paint wont really stick to it well, longterm. Steel does need painting, but its quite easy and lasts pretty well. In theory a mast of equal strength, is thinner in steel and both have the same/similar mass and inertia. Is there something that makes one or the other preferable ? On 06/01/2015 00:55, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Andy Deering , after several Pacific crossings and 20,000 miles of > cruising, on a 36 ft brentboat, found a broken aluminium mast in a > scrapyard. So he put it together and made the conversion from his 6 > inch OD steel mast. He said the difference in sailing, was barely > noticeable. So now he has the steel mast for sale . -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31699|31696|2015-01-07 17:06:22|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for a 36|svindefatigable@...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anyone have the contact info for Andy Deering?| 31700|31696|2015-01-08 18:02:38|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for a 36|A friend moved his steel mast from Washington to BC by tying it on a tiny boat trailer . No problem.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :svindefatigable@...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anyone have the contact info for Andy Deering?| 31702|31702|2015-01-12 19:22:28|aguysailing|Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's deal wi|Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not Source: www.sacsis.org | Original Post Date: August 15th, 2011 – An Italian radio program’s story about Iceland’s on-going revolution is a stunning example of how l... View on collectivelyconscio... Preview by Yahoo | 31703|31702|2015-01-13 04:00:23|Vignolasports A.S.D.|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's dea| Very good point I knew about it but as it is not in the mainstream media..... We should follow the example here in Italy... Hopefully Greece is on the same way... On 13/01/2015 01:22, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not Source: www.sacsis.org | Original Post Date: August 15th, 2011 – An Italian radio program’s story about Iceland’s on-going revolution is a stunning example of how l... View on collectivelyconscio... Preview by Yahoo | 31704|31702|2015-01-13 04:33:20|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's dea|Thanks for sharing.I met some Icelanders the last five years (loosely connected with Tax Justice Network), and this land in fact is the bloody only single one of the "European Economic Region" (EWR = EU plus EFTA) still consequently haunting and persecuting the personnel responsible for Iceland's part in the worldwide banking crisis.Some attorneys in EU's capital Bruxelles and throughout Germoney tried and still try implementing the Icelander's democratic way of judging economic behavior in the EU but do not get the slightest political support (to-big-to-jail, mainly), nowhere.We'll see how much democracy at all remains with financially troubled EU-members next in Greece, with Greece being some sort of Anti-Iceland, in terms of "what-we-learn-from-the-banksters-crisis".Iceland consequently being omitted in any sort of broader media and generally NOT being in any news is part of the game the complex of International Economic Terrorism plays against the free people of the world.They play it pretty effectively these days, don't they?And for Italy ... didn't the Economic Terrorists take over even the whole Italian government completely when removing the elected Silvio Bungaconi in a putsch and replacing him with a nonelected financial junta led by Mario Monti in November 2011? No more democratic voter's legitimation required, seemingly, as long as you come from Goldman Sucks to present a Nation with still some more of the multiply failed concepts.Am 13.01.2015 um 01:22 schrieb aguysailing@... [origamiboats]:   Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not Source: www.sacsis.org | Original Post Date: August 15th, 2011 – An Italian radio program’s story about Iceland’s on-going revolution is a stunning example of how l... View on collectivelyconscio... Preview by Yahoo | 31705|31702|2015-01-13 10:21:26|a.sobriquet|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's dea|The READERS COMMENTS after the article suggests that there is now lots of graft and corruption in Iceland, implying there wasn't before. And that at least some Icelanders are not at all happy with the direction of the current government.I wish them the best...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not  | 31706|31702|2015-01-13 10:50:01|j fisher|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's deal|I wonder how much of the coverage or lack of is due to the relatively small size of Iceland.  The population of the whole country is smaller than the county I live in.  The county is 500,000 while Iceland is 320,000.  Its essentially a small city/country.  Its more like some of the US cities that have gone broke.  Also the debt levels while a lot per person are not all that great compared to most countries.  Even Greece is 11,000,000.    On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:21 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The READERS COMMENTS after the article suggests that there is now lots of graft and corruption in Iceland, implying there wasn't before. And that at least some Icelanders are not at all happy with the direction of the current government.I wish them the best...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not   | 31707|31702|2015-01-13 16:47:17|Christopher LILJENSTOLPE|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's dea|Greetings, I hate to say it, but isn't this a tad bit off topic? Christopher On 13 Jan 2015, at 1:00, 'Vignolasports A.S.D.' vignolasports@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Very good point > I knew about it but as it is not in the mainstream media..... > We should follow the example here in Italy... > Hopefully Greece is on the same way... > > > > On 13/01/2015 01:22, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote: >> >> Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not >> >> >> >> >> >> image >> >> >> >> Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not >> >> Source: www.sacsis.org | Original Post Date: August 15th, 2011 – An >> Italian radio program’s story about Iceland’s on-going revolution >> is a stunning example of how l... >> >> View on collectivelyconscio... >> >> >> Preview by Yahoo >> >> >> -- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf| 31708|31702|2015-01-13 19:52:22|brentswain38|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's deal|When I sold my last boat a recession followed. The new owner felt smug knowing whatever happened to the economy, he had a warm dry home, with far less dependence than most, on the economy or what happened to it .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wonder how much of the coverage or lack of is due to the relatively small size of Iceland.  The population of the whole country is smaller than the county I live in.  The county is 500,000 while Iceland is 320,000.  Its essentially a small city/country.  Its more like some of the US cities that have gone broke.  Also the debt levels while a lot per person are not all that great compared to most countries.  Even Greece is 11,000,000.    On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:21 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote:  The READERS COMMENTS after the article suggests that there is now lots of graft and corruption in Iceland, implying there wasn't before. And that at least some Icelanders are not at all happy with the direction of the current government.I wish them the best...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why Iceland Should Be In The News, But Is Not  | 31709|31702|2015-01-13 20:07:30|opuspaul|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's dea|Yeah, if you want to fill up the board with stories about govt corruption, stupidity and problems with the economy, I have enough postings for the next 20 years......Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Greetings, I hate to say it, but isn't this a tad bit off topic? Christopher | 31710|31702|2015-01-13 20:58:42|Christopher LILJENSTOLPE|Re: Not origami but could affect sailing. Canadians vs Harper's dea|On 13 Jan 2015, at 17:07, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Yeah, if you want to fill up the board with stories about govt > corruption, stupidity and problems with the economy, I have enough > postings for the next 20 years......Paul I usually think of sailing in an attempt to FORGET that :) Christopher > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > Greetings, > > I hate to say it, but isn't this a tad bit off topic? > > Christopher > > http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf -- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf| 31712|31711|2015-01-14 01:10:37|jbsf2004|Re: Have A Chat With More Than 20000 Online Girls|Do they come with the plans?| 31717|31714|2015-01-14 13:19:10|Robert Jones|Re: Get It On With A Partner In 3 Minutes!|Would an administrator please ban this clown!!| 31722|31722|2015-01-15 04:47:03|Marc de Piolenc|SPAM invasion|List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/| 31724|31688|2015-01-15 05:40:58|mountain man|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght| can they fail (the poured sockets)?wich is best ; zinc or epoxy compound to fill the socket?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 15:02:21 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   When you push the wire thru the poured socket, be sure to bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back in , before doing the pouring. If you don't, they will pull out. A wet rage around the wire stops the zinc from flowing right thru.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ok thanks.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 15:04:27 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  About 2 inches long works. Then I cut  a V out of one side and hammer it into a cone shape, Then I weld the cut and , put  the loop , of rod or square bar over the seam and fully weld it. Making the loop long gives you more room to work with.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,At how long do you cut the 3\4in.  schedule 40 pipe used to make the poured sockets?Thanks, Martin. | 31725|31688|2015-01-15 06:54:15|James Pronk|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James| 31726|31688|2015-01-15 07:06:28|mountain man|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght| I read, on a rigging forum , that one big socket failed on a big boat.They did not mention how.MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:54:15 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James | 31728|31722|2015-01-15 12:33:31|Robert Jones|Re: SPAM invasion|thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam  i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 -- #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442activity span .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 dd.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 dd.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 dd.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442last p span.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 div#ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 input, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-507367783yiv2480447442ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-507367783 | 31738|31722|2015-01-16 15:00:12|brentswain38|Re: SPAM invasion|I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam  i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/#ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 -- #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442activity span .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 dd.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 dd.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 dd.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442last p span.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 div#ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 .ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 input, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2062913966 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442 #ygrps-yiv-2062913966ygrps-yiv-960576014yiv2480447442ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 31739|31688|2015-01-16 15:02:03|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|Poured sockets are the only rigging ends which are legal for bridges and elevators.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}I read, on a rigging forum , that one big socket failed on a big boat.They did not mention how.MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:54:15 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James#ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1891930172 #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956 .ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1891930172ygrps-yiv-1491722956ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31740|31688|2015-01-16 15:03:34|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James| 31741|31688|2015-01-16 15:04:18|mountain man|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght| where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James | 31742|31688|2015-01-16 15:18:02|Matt Malone|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght| Would melting boat "zincs" yield zinc of sufficient alloy and purity to be useful in melted sockets?  Or is there special socket "zinc" which is a different alloy specially made to wet steel wires and form an intimate bond ?Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:04:16 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James | 31744|31722|2015-01-16 19:56:29|Robert Jones|Re: SPAM invasion|My hero! On Friday, January 16, 2015 2:00 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam  i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 -- #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663activity span .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 dd.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 dd.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 dd.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663last p span.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 div#ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 .ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 input, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663 #ygrps-yiv-1318213895yiv7407279663ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1318213895 | 31747|31747|2015-01-17 05:46:14|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Digest Number 4555|Poured socketsAs I understand it the function of the zinc or epoxy is to keep the splayed wires separated and it is this splaying which is the main strength function.Zinc would be used because it would wet the steel wires,which may well have been galvanised anyway.I used to use solder on motorcycle cable sockets which uses a similar technique but this may not be strong enough for rigging work.I've not checked but there may be some issues over melting pure zinc - doesn;t it tend to sublimate rather than melt - but other than that there should be no problems.You could talk nicely to your local galvanising plant about a supply of the metal - we're only talking about a couple of pounds - hack a bit off an old boat zinc,or try a hardware store for a material called perforated zinc which you could scrunch up prior to meltingHappy New Year to everyoneAndy Airey  On Saturday, 17 January 2015, 9:30:10, "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 11 Messages Digest #4555 1 wanna seek a new soulmate? by "Ivan Kegler" 2 Locate your next couple online right now by "Aubrey Witherell" 3a Re: SPAM invasion by brentswain38 3b Re: SPAM invasion by "Robert Jones" pha7env 4a Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by brentswain38 4b Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by brentswain38 4c Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by "mountain man" inter4905 4d Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone 5 Search sexy sex partners in your city by "Aubrey Witherell" 6 Would you like to connect with hot babes? by "Aubrey Witherell" 7 Fuck sexy chicks tonight without strings by "Aubrey Witherell" Messages 1 wanna seek a new soulmate? Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:30 am (PST) . Posted by: "Ivan Kegler" beautiful girls looking for hot fun Find your perfect match >>> http://calmdates.com/g/388_83644_6h3ij/Hope You Get Fun! Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ 2 Locate your next couple online right now Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by: "Aubrey Witherell" Looking for hookups? Try them. Its free. Dating ::: http://calmdates.com/g/295_122924_A9d3h/ BBWs ::: http://calmdates.com/g/293_122924_A9d3h/ Regards, Have A Great Time! Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ 3a Re: SPAM invasion Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:00 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote: List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 3b Re: SPAM invasion Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:56 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Robert Jones" pha7env My hero! On Friday, January 16, 2015 2:00 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam  i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663 -- #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv740727966 3 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp #yiv7407279663hd {color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:700; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp #yiv7407279663ads {margin-bottom: 10px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad p {margin:0;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad a {color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc {font-family: Arial;}#yiv74072 79663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc #yiv7407279663hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight: 700;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc .yiv7407279663ad {margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663actio ns {font-family: Verdana;font- size:11px; padding:10px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity {background- color:#e0ecee; float:left; font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; padding:10px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span {font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span:first-child {text-transform: uppercase; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span a {color:#5085b6; text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span span {color:#ff7900; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span .yiv7407279663under line {text-decoration: underline; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663attac h {clear:both; display:table; font-family: Arial;font- size:12px; padding:10px 0;width:400px; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663attac h div a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 .yiv7407279663attac h img {border:none; padding-right: 5px;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663attac h label {display:block; margin-bottom: 5px;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663attac h label a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663bold {font-family: Arial;font- size:13px; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663bold a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p a {font-family: Verdana;font- weight:700; }#yiv7407279663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p span {margin-right: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p span.yiv7407279663y shortcuts {margin-right: 0;}#yiv740727966 3 div.yiv7407279663at tach-table div div a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div.yiv7407279663at tach-table {width:400px; }#yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:active, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:hover, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:active, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:hover, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div#yiv7407279663yg rp-mlmsg #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p a span.yiv7407279663y shortcuts {font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; font-weight: normal;}# yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663green {color:#628c2a; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663MsoNo rmal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv7407279663 o {font-size:0; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663photo s div {float:left; width:72px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663photo s div div {border:1px solid #666666;height: 62px;overflow: hidden;width: 62px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663photo s div label {color:#666666; font-size: 10px;overflow: hidden;text- align:center; white-space: nowrap;width: 64px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663reco- category {font-size:77% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663reco- desc {font-size:77% ;}#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663replb q {margin:4px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- actbar div a:first-child {margin-right: 2px;padding- right:5px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg select, #yiv7407279663 input, #yiv7407279663 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg pre, #yiv7407279663 code {font:115% monospace;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg #yiv7407279663logo {padding-bottom: 10px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p a {font-family: Verdana;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p#yiv7407279663atta ch-count span {color:#1E66AE; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- reco #yiv7407279663reco- head {color:#ff7900; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- reco {margin-bottom: 20px;padding: 0px;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov li a {font-size:130% ;text-decoration :none;}#yiv74072 79663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov li {font-size:77% ;list-style- type:square; padding:6px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov ul {margin:0;padding: 0 0 0 8px;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text {font-family: Georgia;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text tt {font-size:120% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- vital ul li:last-child {border-right: none !important;} #yiv7407279663 Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 4a Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:02 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 Poured sockets are the only rigging ends which are legal for bridges and elevators. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I read, on a rigging forum , that one big socket failed on a big boat. They did not mention how. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:54:15 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 4b Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:03 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 4c Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:04 pm (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 where do you buy zinc? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ | 31751|31688|2015-01-17 17:19:29|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|You find them on tide grids and in haulout areas.  Boat zincs work just fine. Some yards remelt them then reuse them as hull zincs. I've done that, with no problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James#ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1894424019 #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894 .ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1894424019ygrps-yiv-896457894ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31752|31688|2015-01-17 17:30:24|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|Boat zincs are fine. Anyone trying to sell you on a "Special alloy " is scamming you. Ammonium chloride gives better bond, but if you bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back into the sockets before pouring, there is no way you are going to pull them straight, while they are cast in solid zinc. You would also have to pull them into their original alignment, while they are cast in solid zinc! That just aint going to happen.That would take far more load than the breaking strength of the wire.Zinc, being  a conductor, with far more cross sectional area than the wire,  is a far better conductor than the wire itself. Not much chance of lightning heating it up  more than the wire itself, certainly not to the melting point. Epoxy would give you minimum conductivity, with the few tiny contacts with the cone, guaranteeing high resistance and lots of heat buildup . Lightning would blow the epoxy out of the cone.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Would melting boat "zincs" yield zinc of sufficient alloy and purity to be useful in melted sockets?  Or is there special socket "zinc" which is a different alloy specially made to wet steel wires and form an intimate bond ?Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:04:16 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James#ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-122535691 #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678 .ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-122535691ygrps-yiv-1643300678ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31753|31688|2015-01-17 17:39:32|mountain man|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght| Brent,Also; do you need to have  the sockets galvanized absolutely?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:30:23 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght   Boat zincs are fine. Anyone trying to sell you on a "Special alloy " is scamming you. Ammonium chloride gives better bond, but if you bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back into the sockets before pouring, there is no way you are going to pull them straight, while they are cast in solid zinc. You would also have to pull them into their original alignment, while they are cast in solid zinc! That just aint going to happen.That would take far more load than the breaking strength of the wire.Zinc, being  a conductor, with far more cross sectional area than the wire,  is a far better conductor than the wire itself. Not much chance of lightning heating it up  more than the wire itself, certainly not to the melting point. Epoxy would give you minimum conductivity, with the few tiny contacts with the cone, guaranteeing high resistance and lots of heat buildup . Lightning would blow the epoxy out of the cone.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Would melting boat "zincs" yield zinc of sufficient alloy and purity to be useful in melted sockets?  Or is there special socket "zinc" which is a different alloy specially made to wet steel wires and form an intimate bond ?Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:04:16 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James | 31755|31688|2015-01-17 23:57:34|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|I once was part of a team testing this exact problem, brought forward by an epoxy seller concerned about it's ability to withstand lightning both in small diameter laminates (like standing rigging) and in probably affected hullparts, because a big racer yard was about to build a pretty competitive lightweight  and wanted some more real information for insurance/warranty-reasons; (their lawyers wanted to know what to write down between the lines, that is.)Simple conclusion: it won't.We were able to reproduce the micro-damage in the epo-matrix with temperatures compared to what was induced by the current, so it is merely a temperature thing.Using conducting fillers like ground alu, ground carbon fibers in filling specification or alike reduced the damaging effect of current while heavily affecting the properties of the matrix first place.Vacuumed Carbon Prepreg worked best (for the least part of epo-matrix) but still tended to disintegrate in sheets, epo in contact to any sort of conducting metal simply worked not at all.Epo might be quite an astonishingly durable stuff, bytimes, especially together with wood and seawater, but it's simply not suited for this sort of "abuse". Am 17.01.2015 um 23:30 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   Boat zincs are fine. Anyone trying to sell you on a "Special alloy " is scamming you. Ammonium chloride gives better bond, but if you bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back into the sockets before pouring, there is no way you are going to pull them straight, while they are cast in solid zinc. You would also have to pull them into their original alignment, while they are cast in solid zinc! That just aint going to happen.That would take far more load than the breaking strength of the wire.Zinc, being  a conductor, with far more cross sectional area than the wire,  is a far better conductor than the wire itself. Not much chance of lightning heating it up  more than the wire itself, certainly not to the melting point. Epoxy would give you minimum conductivity, with the few tiny contacts with the cone, guaranteeing high resistance and lots of heat buildup . Lightning would blow the epoxy out of the cone.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Would melting boat "zincs" yield zinc of sufficient alloy and purity to be useful in melted sockets?  Or is there special socket "zinc" which is a different alloy specially made to wet steel wires and form an intimate bond ?Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:04:16 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James | 31759|31688|2015-01-18 15:28:26|mkriley48|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|Redid an Irwin 65 after a lightning strike and the norseman fittings on the backstay insulators were loose the torque was released due to heat. The rest of the rigging was fine and was all conventional swedges. This was not a direct hit, it hit a boat down the dock and came up through the power cords and waterlines. Lots of damage. Blew the guts out of a depth sounder transducer that was through hull mounted.mike| 31766|31688|2015-01-19 16:09:57|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|No but it sure helps. You could sand blast them and give them several coats of cold galvanizing  spray. then epoxy some more. I coated my galv rigging wire with epoxy tar, then wrapped it with hockey tape, then more epoxy tar. No reason you couldnt take that right over the sockets , even thge galv turnbuckles.Looks like the porns are back. I try to delete them as much as possible. I sent Alex  a message asking him to block them. Haven't heard back. He may be relaxing in some place tropical.Bob Perry has taken on  a new career, childishly  trying to sabotage any steel boat  exchange of ideas, to avoid hist ignorance on the subject being exposed. Wouldn't surprise me if this was his latest attempt. It would be typical of him---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Brent,Also; do you need to have  the sockets galvanized absolutely?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:30:23 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  Boat zincs are fine. Anyone trying to sell you on a "Special alloy " is scamming you. Ammonium chloride gives better bond, but if you bend the ends back 180 degrees and pull them back into the sockets before pouring, there is no way you are going to pull them straight, while they are cast in solid zinc. You would also have to pull them into their original alignment, while they are cast in solid zinc! That just aint going to happen.That would take far more load than the breaking strength of the wire.Zinc, being  a conductor, with far more cross sectional area than the wire,  is a far better conductor than the wire itself. Not much chance of lightning heating it up  more than the wire itself, certainly not to the melting point. Epoxy would give you minimum conductivity, with the few tiny contacts with the cone, guaranteeing high resistance and lots of heat buildup . Lightning would blow the epoxy out of the cone.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Would melting boat "zincs" yield zinc of sufficient alloy and purity to be useful in melted sockets?  Or is there special socket "zinc" which is a different alloy specially made to wet steel wires and form an intimate bond ?Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:04:16 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght where do you buy zinc?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght  I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think?James#ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1703097172 #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779 .ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1703097172ygrps-yiv-1811134779ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31767|31688|2015-01-19 16:12:05|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How was the rigging wire?Insulators are high resistance, which would mean concentrated heat .Redid an Irwin 65 after a lightning strike and the norseman fittings on the backstay insulators were loose the torque was released due to heat. The rest of the rigging was fine and was all conventional swedges. This was not a direct hit, it hit a boat down the dock and came up through the power cords and waterlines. Lots of damage. Blew the guts out of a depth sounder transducer that was through hull mounted.mike| 31768|31747|2015-01-19 16:19:05|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 4555|The only one I know of which failed, had wires which were only splayed and were not bent back 180 degrees.  They pulled out early on. So he bent them back 180 degrees , repoured them,  and has had no problem since , after many decades of 6 months  a year cruising.I have melted zinc over a campfire many times . It melts easily , no sublimating, it  just melts cleanly.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Poured socketsAs I understand it the function of the zinc or epoxy is to keep the splayed wires separated and it is this splaying which is the main strength function.Zinc would be used because it would wet the steel wires,which may well have been galvanised anyway.I used to use solder on motorcycle cable sockets which uses a similar technique but this may not be strong enough for rigging work.I've not checked but there may be some issues over melting pure zinc - doesn;t it tend to sublimate rather than melt - but other than that there should be no problems.You could talk nicely to your local galvanising plant about a supply of the metal - we're only talking about a couple of pounds - hack a bit off an old boat zinc,or try a hardware store for a material called perforated zinc which you could scrunch up prior to meltingHappy New Year to everyoneAndy Airey  On Saturday, 17 January 2015, 9:30:10, "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 11 Messages Digest #4555 1 wanna seek a new soulmate? by "Ivan Kegler" 2 Locate your next couple online right now by "Aubrey Witherell" 3a Re: SPAM invasion by brentswain38 3b Re: SPAM invasion by "Robert Jones" pha7env 4a Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by brentswain38 4b Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by brentswain38 4c Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by "mountain man" inter4905 4d Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone 5 Search sexy sex partners in your city by "Aubrey Witherell" 6 Would you like to connect with hot babes? by "Aubrey Witherell" 7 Fuck sexy chicks tonight without strings by "Aubrey Witherell" Messages 1 wanna seek a new soulmate? Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:30 am (PST) . Posted by: "Ivan Kegler" beautiful girls looking for hot fun Find your perfect match >>> http://calmdates.com/g/388_83644_6h3ij/Hope You Get Fun! Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ 2 Locate your next couple online right now Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by: "Aubrey Witherell" Looking for hookups? Try them. Its free. Dating ::: http://calmdates.com/g/295_122924_A9d3h/ BBWs ::: http://calmdates.com/g/293_122924_A9d3h/ Regards, Have A Great Time! Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ 3a Re: SPAM invasion Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:00 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote: List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 3b Re: SPAM invasion Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:56 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Robert Jones" pha7env My hero! On Friday, January 16, 2015 2:00 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam  i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663 -- #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv740727966 3 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp #yiv7407279663hd {color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:700; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp #yiv7407279663ads {margin-bottom: 10px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad p {margin:0;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad a {color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc {font-family: Arial;}#yiv74072 79663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc #yiv7407279663hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight: 700;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc .yiv7407279663ad {margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663actio ns {font-family: Verdana;font- size:11px; padding:10px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity {background- color:#e0ecee; float:left; font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; padding:10px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span {font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span:first-child {text-transform: uppercase; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span a {color:#5085b6; text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span span {color:#ff7900; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span .yiv7407279663under line {text-decoration: underline; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663attac h {clear:both; display:table; font-family: Arial;font- size:12px; padding:10px 0;width:400px; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663attac h div a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 .yiv7407279663attac h img {border:none; padding-right: 5px;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663attac h label {display:block; margin-bottom: 5px;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663attac h label a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663bold {font-family: Arial;font- size:13px; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663bold a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p a {font-family: Verdana;font- weight:700; }#yiv7407279663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p span {margin-right: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p span.yiv7407279663y shortcuts {margin-right: 0;}#yiv740727966 3 div.yiv7407279663at tach-table div div a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div.yiv7407279663at tach-table {width:400px; }#yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:active, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:hover, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:active, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:hover, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div#yiv7407279663yg rp-mlmsg #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p a span.yiv7407279663y shortcuts {font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; font-weight: normal;}# yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663green {color:#628c2a; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663MsoNo rmal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv7407279663 o {font-size:0; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663photo s div {float:left; width:72px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663photo s div div {border:1px solid #666666;height: 62px;overflow: hidden;width: 62px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663photo s div label {color:#666666; font-size: 10px;overflow: hidden;text- align:center; white-space: nowrap;width: 64px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663reco- category {font-size:77% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663reco- desc {font-size:77% ;}#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663replb q {margin:4px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- actbar div a:first-child {margin-right: 2px;padding- right:5px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg select, #yiv7407279663 input, #yiv7407279663 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg pre, #yiv7407279663 code {font:115% monospace;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg #yiv7407279663logo {padding-bottom: 10px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p a {font-family: Verdana;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p#yiv7407279663atta ch-count span {color:#1E66AE; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- reco #yiv7407279663reco- head {color:#ff7900; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- reco {margin-bottom: 20px;padding: 0px;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov li a {font-size:130% ;text-decoration :none;}#yiv74072 79663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov li {font-size:77% ;list-style- type:square; padding:6px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov ul {margin:0;padding: 0 0 0 8px;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text {font-family: Georgia;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text tt {font-size:120% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- vital ul li:last-child {border-right: none !important;} #yiv7407279663 Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 4a Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:02 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 Poured sockets are the only rigging ends which are legal for bridges and elevators. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I read, on a rigging forum , that one big socket failed on a big boat. They did not mention how. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:54:15 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 4b Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:03 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 4c Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:04 pm (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 where do you buy zinc? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ | 31772|31747|2015-01-20 06:21:59|mountain man|Re: Digest Number 4555| Brent,Do you bend the wiresback  like a mushroom(or maybe a hook) or completely 180 deg.?To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:19:04 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Digest Number 4555   The only one I know of which failed, had wires which were only splayed and were not bent back 180 degrees.  They pulled out early on. So he bent them back 180 degrees , repoured them,  and has had no problem since , after many decades of 6 months  a year cruising.I have melted zinc over a campfire many times . It melts easily , no sublimating, it  just melts cleanly.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Poured socketsAs I understand it the function of the zinc or epoxy is to keep the splayed wires separated and it is this splaying which is the main strength function.Zinc would be used because it would wet the steel wires,which may well have been galvanised anyway.I used to use solder on motorcycle cable sockets which uses a similar technique but this may not be strong enough for rigging work.I've not checked but there may be some issues over melting pure zinc - doesn;t it tend to sublimate rather than melt - but other than that there should be no problems.You could talk nicely to your local galvanising plant about a supply of the metal - we're only talking about a couple of pounds - hack a bit off an old boat zinc,or try a hardware store for a material called perforated zinc which you could scrunch up prior to meltingHappy New Year to everyoneAndy Airey  On Saturday, 17 January 2015, 9:30:10, "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 11 Messages Digest #4555 1 wanna seek a new soulmate? by "Ivan Kegler" 2 Locate your next couple online right now by "Aubrey Witherell" 3a Re: SPAM invasion by brentswain38 3b Re: SPAM invasion by "Robert Jones" pha7env 4a Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by brentswain38 4b Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by brentswain38 4c Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by "mountain man" inter4905 4d Re: poured sockets pipe lenght by "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone 5 Search sexy sex partners in your city by "Aubrey Witherell" 6 Would you like to connect with hot babes? by "Aubrey Witherell" 7 Fuck sexy chicks tonight without strings by "Aubrey Witherell" Messages 1 wanna seek a new soulmate? Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:30 am (PST) . Posted by: "Ivan Kegler" beautiful girls looking for hot fun Find your perfect match >>> http://calmdates.com/g/388_83644_6h3ij/Hope You Get Fun! Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ 2 Locate your next couple online right now Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by: "Aubrey Witherell" Looking for hookups? Try them. Its free. Dating ::: http://calmdates.com/g/295_122924_A9d3h/ BBWs ::: http://calmdates.com/g/293_122924_A9d3h/ Regards, Have A Great Time! Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ 3a Re: SPAM invasion Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:00 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote: List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 3b Re: SPAM invasion Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:56 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Robert Jones" pha7env My hero! On Friday, January 16, 2015 2:00 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I was a moderator, but I can' block anymore, just delete. I have found a quicker way of doing that, and sent a message to Alex to block these assholes. Haven't heard back from him, yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : thanks for speaking up Marc! I am not sure, but i think Brent is the sole administrator of the site. This is the first sex spam  i have seen since i've been a member. Brent's probably out sailing and living the dream. On Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:47 AM, "Marc de Piolenc piolenc@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  List owner alert: you must change group settings to require your prior approval for anybody to subscribe. Then you have to remove the sex messages and individually remove and ban all their authors. It's a pain in the neck, but once spammers take over, legitimate users leave or fall silent and the list dies. Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663 -- #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv740727966 3 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp #yiv7407279663hd {color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:700; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp #yiv7407279663ads {margin-bottom: 10px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad p {margin:0;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mkp .yiv7407279663ad a {color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc {font-family: Arial;}#yiv74072 79663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc #yiv7407279663hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight: 700;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ygrp- lc .yiv7407279663ad {margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663actio ns {font-family: Verdana;font- size:11px; padding:10px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity {background- color:#e0ecee; float:left; font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; padding:10px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span {font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span:first-child {text-transform: uppercase; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span a {color:#5085b6; text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span span {color:#ff7900; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663activ ity span .yiv7407279663under line {text-decoration: underline; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663attac h {clear:both; display:table; font-family: Arial;font- size:12px; padding:10px 0;width:400px; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663attac h div a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 .yiv7407279663attac h img {border:none; padding-right: 5px;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663attac h label {display:block; margin-bottom: 5px;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663attac h label a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663bold {font-family: Arial;font- size:13px; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 .yiv7407279663bold a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p a {font-family: Verdana;font- weight:700; }#yiv7407279663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p span {margin-right: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 dd.yiv7407279663las t p span.yiv7407279663y shortcuts {margin-right: 0;}#yiv740727966 3 div.yiv7407279663at tach-table div div a {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div.yiv7407279663at tach-table {width:400px; }#yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:active, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:hover, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663fi le-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:active, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:hover, #yiv7407279663 div.yiv7407279663ph oto-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv740727 9663 div#yiv7407279663yg rp-mlmsg #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p a span.yiv7407279663y shortcuts {font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; font-weight: normal;}# yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663green {color:#628c2a; }#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663MsoNo rmal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv7407279663 o {font-size:0; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663photo s div {float:left; width:72px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663photo s div div {border:1px solid #666666;height: 62px;overflow: hidden;width: 62px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663photo s div label {color:#666666; font-size: 10px;overflow: hidden;text- align:center; white-space: nowrap;width: 64px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663reco- category {font-size:77% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663reco- desc {font-size:77% ;}#yiv7407279663 .yiv7407279663replb q {margin:4px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- actbar div a:first-child {margin-right: 2px;padding- right:5px; }#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg select, #yiv7407279663 input, #yiv7407279663 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg pre, #yiv7407279663 code {font:115% monospace;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}# yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- mlmsg #yiv7407279663logo {padding-bottom: 10px;}#yiv740727 9663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p a {font-family: Verdana;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- msg p#yiv7407279663atta ch-count span {color:#1E66AE; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- reco #yiv7407279663reco- head {color:#ff7900; font-weight: 700;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- reco {margin-bottom: 20px;padding: 0px;}#yiv7407279 663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov li a {font-size:130% ;text-decoration :none;}#yiv74072 79663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov li {font-size:77% ;list-style- type:square; padding:6px 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- sponsor #yiv7407279663ov ul {margin:0;padding: 0 0 0 8px;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text {font-family: Georgia;} #yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- text tt {font-size:120% ;}#yiv7407279663 #yiv7407279663ygrp- vital ul li:last-child {border-right: none !important;} #yiv7407279663 Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 4a Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:02 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 Poured sockets are the only rigging ends which are legal for bridges and elevators. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I read, on a rigging forum , that one big socket failed on a big boat. They did not mention how. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:54:15 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 4b Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:03 pm (PST) . Posted by: brentswain38 I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ 4c Re: poured sockets pipe lenght Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:04 pm (PST) . Posted by: "mountain man" inter4905 where do you buy zinc? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:03:34 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: poured sockets pipe lenght I cant see lightening melting zinc, but I have heard of it burning epoxy out of sockets. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The only thing I can think of with sockets failing would be with a lighting strike. Would the heat melt the zinc? Will the epoxy burn as the electricity tries to bridge across it? What do you think? James Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (13) . Top ^ | 31776|31747|2015-01-20 20:06:02|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 4555|I bend them back 180 degrees, being careful to avoid making the bends too sharp. Sometimes they break , if they are 1x7 high tensile, but leave a good enough hook to prevent  the chance of the strand pulling thru all that zinc.| 31780|31674|2015-01-21 08:54:55|salleymo|Re: Plan design modifications|Well, I have been doing my homework, and can see that the process seems to beA) Buy Brent's BookB) Buy Alex's videosC) Buy a set of plans.I am about to break loose and start the process and get everything together.I do have a question pertaining to the plans.  If i order the 40' plans, what all details come in the package?How many sheets, and what is listed.  Are they the same sheets for the 36'? Is the sail plan the same?  Let me ask this differently.A) how many sheets of drawings come with the 40' plans.B) what are the title to each drawing or what is the emphasis of the details.C) are there more drawings or details for one particular size boat than another?Am I leaving anything out such as Moms photos?  Is that recommended? Or is it available on line?Ok, thanks for honest detailed answers.Salley M.PS. I really enjoyed the list of screw ups and first things to build file and have started a folder.  I am looking forward to this project.| 31781|31674|2015-01-21 09:29:07|Matt Malone|Re: Plan design modifications| I think that Kim's series of photos of building a 26' is really helpful to see the process too:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWMatt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 05:54:54 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Plan design modifications   Well, I have been doing my homework, and can see that the process seems to beA) Buy Brent's BookB) Buy Alex's videosC) Buy a set of plans.I am about to break loose and start the process and get everything together.I do have a question pertaining to the plans.  If i order the 40' plans, what all details come in the package?How many sheets, and what is listed.  Are they the same sheets for the 36'? Is the sail plan the same?  Let me ask this differently.A) how many sheets of drawings come with the 40' plans.B) what are the title to each drawing or what is the emphasis of the details.C) are there more drawings or details for one particular size boat than another?Am I leaving anything out such as Moms photos?  Is that recommended? Or is it available on line?Ok, thanks for honest detailed answers.Salley M.PS. I really enjoyed the list of screw ups and first things to build file and have started a folder.  I am looking forward to this project. | 31782|31674|2015-01-21 09:36:04|James Pronk|Re: Plan design modifications|I do really like Kim"s photos but what has happened to Kim? Did he ride off into the sunset on his Harley? No new photos since he bought the bike?Thank you,James.| 31783|31747|2015-01-21 09:36:24|mountain man|Re: Digest Number 4555| ok, thanksTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:06:01 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Digest Number 4555   I bend them back 180 degrees, being careful to avoid making the bends too sharp. Sometimes they break , if they are 1x7 high tensile, but leave a good enough hook to prevent  the chance of the strand pulling thru all that zinc. | 31785|31674|2015-01-21 09:49:55|Matt Malone|Re: Plan design modifications| Sadly, it seems, yes.Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 06:36:03 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Plan design modifications   I do really like Kim"s photos but what has happened to Kim? Did he ride off into the sunset on his Harley? No new photos since he bought the bike?Thank you,James. | 31786|31674|2015-01-21 10:05:55|Larry Dale|Re: Plan design modifications|That lousy bike. I was looking forward to seeing the finished boat. He started off so strong and was doing really well. From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 9:48 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Plan design modifications Sadly, it seems, yes.Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 06:36:03 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Plan design modifications   I do really like Kim"s photos but what has happened to Kim? Did he ride off into the sunset on his Harley? No new photos since he bought the bike?Thank you,James. | 31788|31688|2015-01-21 14:52:26|mkriley48|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|evrything was fine except the outside cones were finger loose on the norseman insulators. No visual signs of anything and these were the only norsemans on the boat. swages were checked with a go no-go gauge for signs of swelling and found none. Think I would rather have nico-press fittings.mike| 31789|31688|2015-01-21 17:11:28|brentswain38|Re: poured sockets pipe lenght|Copper or aluminium nicopress are nowhere near the strength of the wire. Commercial riggers use steel or stainless sleeves, which are of adequate strength. They are not all that expensive ..| 31794|31794|2015-01-22 10:00:43|smallboatvoyaguer|Weld Thru primer|Anyone have recommendations for a weld through primer? I will be dry blasting.-M| 31796|31794|2015-01-22 12:08:40|James Pronk|Re: Weld Thru primer|Metalhide one-pac inorganic zinc rich primer 97-676 gray from Pittsburgh paintshttp://www.ppghighperformancecoatings.com/getmedia/97f93deb-a49b-4af3-8439-a20876557672/TDS_97-676.pdf.aspx?ext=.pdfThat's what I've been using. Has worked well so far.James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Weld Thru primer Sent: Thu, Jan 22, 2015 3:00:43 PM   Anyone have recommendations for a weld through primer? I will be dry blasting.-M | 31798|31794|2015-01-22 19:46:01|brentswain38|Re: Weld Thru primer|In the 31 there are two small, triangular plates on the aft bottom plate. Leaving them off as long as possible leaves you a small hole there, just behind the engine, for sweeping crap out, and  passing extension cords , cutting  torch hoses, tools, ballast , etc thru, and sweeping sandblasting sand out.| 31799|31674|2015-01-22 19:48:28|brentswain38|Re: Plan design modifications|Plans for the 40 footer  include 7 large drawings , including hull lines , plate layout, structural, keels, rudder, ballast ,skeg,  tankage, interior, deck layout, self steering, mast, rig, inside steering, stability curve, lbs per inch immersion chart. etc. Book includes anchor winch, furler, heads, woodstove,  engine driven welder, painting, foaming, interiors, dinghy, water maker, , etc. Many of the details are the same as for the 36.Only the 26 has fewer drawings, as it is much smaller and simpler.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Well, I have been doing my homework, and can see that the process seems to beA) Buy Brent's BookB) Buy Alex's videosC) Buy a set of plans.I am about to break loose and start the process and get everything together.I do have a question pertaining to the plans.  If i order the 40' plans, what all details come in the package?How many sheets, and what is listed.  Are they the same sheets for the 36'? Is the sail plan the same?  Let me ask this differently.A) how many sheets of drawings come with the 40' plans.B) what are the title to each drawing or what is the emphasis of the details.C) are there more drawings or details for one particular size boat than another?Am I leaving anything out such as Moms photos?  Is that recommended? Or is it available on line?Ok, thanks for honest detailed answers.Salley M.PS. I really enjoyed the list of screw ups and first things to build file and have started a folder.  I am looking forward to this project.| 31810|31810|2015-01-24 16:05:24|smallboatvoyaguer|Ice Reinforcments|This is an email I sent to Brent and his response. If anyone else has any clever ideas please share:My email: Hi Brent,Is it necessary to paint the inside of the rudder? How about the skeg? Seems like it might be a good idea.  A few more in regard to reinforcements of the hull, with a preface. I've decided to go with the mono keel. I have what I think are good reasons, mainly the fact that this boat will be spending literally half of it's time navigating through ice or frozen in it. After seeing the boats in BC and how the bilge keels sort of stick out the side, I know for a fact they would get the shit beat out of them, and would constantly get hung up as I weave my way through the medium sized (15' deep x 20'+ wide ) ice bergs we get around here every spring. I also don't see freezing the boat in 2'-4' of ice meshing well with the keels. Or if two massive plates come together against my will, and force the keels inward...   The mono keel in the plans calls for 3/16" plate. Would it do any harm using 1/4"?  Would it be more benificial to widen the top of the keel than to add thicker plate? I was also thinking I would make the chine doubler plates extend out in both directions, both up the hull side and down towards the center line. I think you mention 6" in the plans, I was thinking 1.5 feet. Thoughts? Do have any suggestions or ideas for reinforcing the hull to withstand major abuse and compression? That is all. Ordering more steel and beginning deck plates, keel, skeg, and rudder soon. Almost all of my deck hardware is finished, as well as the hatches. Thanks,   MarlinBrent's Response:Marlin there is no need to paint the inside of the ruder or skeg. The rudder is airtight and with no steady supply of oxygen ,it can't oxidize. Anti freeze is a strong enough  anti corrosive to prevent oxidation inside the skeg.A single keel is a good idea on lakes ,. With no tides you can get a single keel of more easily by heeling her when you run aground, not an option for twin keels. Yes 1/4 inch would be fine for  keel sides. As steel is cheaper than lead, , going heavier on the steel is a good idea. No point in widening the top.Widening the doubler plates  18 inches up the topsides would give you welding distortion, and serve no useful purpose.  On the bottom it would do no harm, but beyond a foot would  serve no purpose either.I don't think you need any further reinforcing.I have rammed my way thru a quarter mile of five inch ice with no damage.| 31812|31812|2015-01-24 21:25:13|ragnarpar|Trim tab details|Arrghh!  Might dem der porno miesters have any talent at burning a hot rod and making it smoke or at least some skilled heavy duty grinding??  HarGee, i cant believe i just wrote that,  my apologies if I offended anyone, the spammers sure bee annoying.Ok, I am tweeking a rudder project and am looking for the trim tab deminsions, details, angles etc etc.  i can see the wind vane control aperatus, but nothing other than the gudgeons on the ruddef for placement of the trim tab and brent saying make sure you use three pintals and not two.   So, where should i look. How long, how wide, what material???? etc etc, Yaya, thanks fer any helps.  For the forty footer.Par| 31814|31810|2015-01-24 22:32:01|Matt Malone|Re: Ice Reinforcments| Well, you have Brent's advice.  If you did not have the hull steel yet, I would have recommended asking Brent about going one size thicker on the hull plate itself.   Compression stiffness of a shell is greatly increased with increased thickness.   As for ice, I have seen ice piled 20 feet high on the windward side of lakes, homes pushed right off their foundations.   It is a much more complex loading you are asking about, and there is no upper limit.   A boat can only have so much fluid pressure applied to it, say by a breaking wave.   The keel can only bang on the bottom in proportion to how far the wave drops you before the keel hits bottom.   With ice, the pressures can build up from the wind force over miles, even tens of miles of ice.   My understanding with icebreakers is, their hull is shaped to ride up when there is ice pressure from the sides, but that is just from some light reading on the subject.   There are plenty of boats in Canada that stay in the water year round.  They use bubblers.   I have seen some are pretty flimsily built modern fibreglass, even seen a fir plywood boat, made from 1/4 fir plywood overwintering in ice with bubblers.   As for big blocks of ice, I would rather stay away from them.  Anything you can curve into a hull with hand tools it seems enough big blocks of ice get together, they can change the shape again.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:05:23 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Ice Reinforcments   This is an email I sent to Brent and his response. If anyone else has any clever ideas please share:My email: Hi Brent,Is it necessary to paint the inside of the rudder? How about the skeg? Seems like it might be a good idea.  A few more in regard to reinforcements of the hull, with a preface. I've decided to go with the mono keel. I have what I think are good reasons, mainly the fact that this boat will be spending literally half of it's time navigating through ice or frozen in it. After seeing the boats in BC and how the bilge keels sort of stick out the side, I know for a fact they would get the shit beat out of them, and would constantly get hung up as I weave my way through the medium sized (15' deep x 20'+ wide ) ice bergs we get around here every spring. I also don't see freezing the boat in 2'-4' of ice meshing well with the keels. Or if two massive plates come together against my will, and force the keels inward...   The mono keel in the plans calls for 3/16" plate. Would it do any harm using 1/4"?  Would it be more benificial to widen the top of the keel than to add thicker plate? I was also thinking I would make the chine doubler plates extend out in both directions, both up the hull side and down towards the center line. I think you mention 6" in the plans, I was thinking 1.5 feet. Thoughts? Do have any suggestions or ideas for reinforcing the hull to withstand major abuse and compression? That is all. Ordering more steel and beginning deck plates, keel, skeg, and rudder soon. Almost all of my deck hardware is finished, as well as the hatches. Thanks,   MarlinBrent's Response:Marlin there is no need to paint the inside of the ruder or skeg. The rudder is airtight and with no steady supply of oxygen ,it can't oxidize. Anti freeze is a strong enough  anti corrosive to prevent oxidation inside the skeg.A single keel is a good idea on lakes ,. With no tides you can get a single keel of more easily by heeling her when you run aground, not an option for twin keels. Yes 1/4 inch would be fine for  keel sides. As steel is cheaper than lead, , going heavier on the steel is a good idea. No point in widening the top.Widening the doubler plates  18 inches up the topsides would give you welding distortion, and serve no useful purpose.  On the bottom it would do no harm, but beyond a foot would  serve no purpose either.I don't think you need any further reinforcing.I have rammed my way thru a quarter mile of five inch ice with no damage. | 31817|31810|2015-01-25 11:33:41|a.sobriquet|Re: Ice Reinforcments|I have wondered if you could make your main hull plates of two different thicknesses of steel? The lower section(s) of a heavier gauge, and the upper section(s) of a lighter gauge? The initial plate-joining weld lines would be different than where Brent recommends, and I'm not sure how the final plate would bend, being composed of two (or more) different plate thicknesses?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Well, you have Brent's advice.  If you did not have the hull steel yet, I would have recommended asking Brent about going one size thicker on the hull plate itself.   Compression stiffness of a shell is greatly increased with increased thickness....Matt#ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1002927390 #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1002927390ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31819|31722|2015-01-25 14:32:16|northcanoe|Re: SPAM invasion|I'm on it, looking into how to block these spammers. Very odd, as they don't appear to be members of the group, and only members can post. I'll ask the Yahoo people about it, if I can't block them. Alex| 31820|31722|2015-01-25 17:34:43|James Pronk|Re: SPAM invasion|Thank you Alex! From: northcanoe@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] SPAM invasion Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 7:32:15 PM   I'm on it, looking into how to block these spammers. Very odd, as they don't appear to be members of the group, and only members can post. I'll ask the Yahoo people about it, if I can't block them. Alex | 31824|31722|2015-01-26 05:48:18|Hannu Venermo|Re: SPAM invasion|Look at who actually sent it .. in the header info in every post. It can be a members pc, compromised via botware. See if the ip is the same every time. Ctrl_u in thunderbird. For example, you sent mail from "X-Originating-IP: 96.54.190.40 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 96.54.190.40 From: "northcanoe@... [origamiboats]" " On 25/01/2015 20:32, northcanoe@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > I'm on it, looking into how to block these spammers. Very odd, as they > don't appear to be members of the group, and only members can post. > I'll ask the Yahoo people about it, if I can't block them. > > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31826|31722|2015-01-26 10:29:29|Matt Malone|Re: SPAM invasion| Hannu,(Results first)After going back through all the posters (all of the regulars) back to Nov 23, If it is a member's computer, the only even possible candidate is:Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:53:44 +0000X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) X-Originating-IP: 195.8.89.39 X-Original-From: Chris Harnan From: "Chris Harnan chris.harnan@... [origamiboats]" Banning this person will not stop the spam.  Blaming them will not help.  Contacting this person to have them check their computer might, if it is their computer that is infected.  Which I have with this email.But if it is an infected computer, I do not see that it has to belong to a member.  I could be any computer anywhere.  Yahoo Groups would have no reason whatsoever to accept email from Chris' computer once it changed dynamic IP addresses the first time.   Therefore, regardless of the answer, it is a weakness in Yahoo Groups email that is allowing the spam to continue.   My reasons for selecting this as a possibility -- the IP address is close to the same range.  All other  member IP addresses back to Nov 23 are very different.  The computer is an Apple so it runs a version of unix.   The default web page looks like what ships standard with some unix computers.  But this is not evidence.... it is more that everyone else back to this date was too different to consider.   If someone has a record of when the spam started, I can look more at people who posted just before.    Back to the beginning.  If this is a member's infected computer, and if the member is on a standard residential ISP with no fixed IP address, we really have to wait for them to post near enough to the same time a spam is sent to match IPs.   1) I am helping by posting so you can see if it was me.   2) I am going back through SPAMs to log their date3) I am going back through legit messages to see if any of the data matches.None of these match:HannuJames Pronknorthcanoea.sobriquet   -0800ragnarparmusicasrevolutionbrentswain38Larry Dalematt malonemountain mansalleymoProbably not: (My spam records do not go back far enough)Giuseppe BergmanMarc de Piolenc +0800Jfisher   -0700vignolasports  +0100aguysailing -0800jaybeecherbay -0800and a bunch more, all regulars, long time members, I stopped recording...Note that the spam bot always has the time -0300 -- other posters are in different time zones.... Revised, I have come to feel that this is likely faked too because it would correspond to Greenland ?This most recent IP address corresponds to:http://www.rktads.com/x/1/0/redirectThis has to be someone who has installed Dynamic DNS.   http://www.rktads.com/   is an installed and configured web server with no pages to displayA who-is on them gives: Sample of Domains Using ns2.rktads.com Domain Registrar Create Date Expire Date More Information hardpornytube.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-13 2015-03-13DNShotxtubes.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-13 2015-03-13DNSonpornmovies.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-12 2015-03-12DNSoursextube.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2013-10-10 2014-10-10DNSporntube13.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-12 2015-03-12DNSpuregayporn.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-21 2015-03-21DNSrktads.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2013-09-20 2015-09-20DNSsametube.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-14 2015-03-14DNSwsextube.com GODADDY.COM, LLC 2014-03-12 2015-03-12DNSSearch of the recent spam:-------------------------------------X-Originating-IP: 198.50.173.90X-Original-From: Carla Cote Subject: [origamiboats] Hookup with adult people looking for sexSubject: [origamiboats] Get It On With partners In Minutes!Subject: [origamiboats] Fling horny girls tonightSubject: [origamiboats] Meet girls online in your zoneSubject: [origamiboats] hot girls from your zone to fuck tonightDate: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:44:38 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.27.77.11X-Original-From: Jett Garten Subject: [origamiboats] Would you like to connect with sexy babes?Including lines only where something is different:Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:31:07 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.27.77.11X-Original-From: Jett Garten Subject: [origamiboats] Fuck sexy chicks today without stringsDate: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 19:31:09 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.27.77.11X-Original-From: Jett Garten Subject: [origamiboats] Meet now sexy people in your townDate: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:48:08 -0300X-Originating-IP: 192.95.8.250X-Original-From: Aubrey Witherell Subject: [origamiboats] hookup now sexy people in your zoneDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 18:18:09 -0300X-Originating-IP: 192.95.8.250X-Original-From: Aubrey Witherell Subject: [origamiboats] Have a real hot date tonighDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 08:51:24 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.178.95X-Original-From: Sienna Sansbury Subject: [origamiboats] Meet horny singles for hot datesDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 14:51:26 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.178.95X-Original-From: Sienna Sansbury Subject: [origamiboats] Seek sexy cyber singles close to youDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 11:37:39 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.152.102X-Original-From: Ivan Kegler Subject: [origamiboats] wanna seek a new soul mate?Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 22:07:36 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.152.102X-Original-From: Ivan Kegler Subject: [origamiboats] Would you like to connect with hot chicks?Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:45:44 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.152.102X-Original-From: Ivan Kegler Subject: [origamiboats] Affairs with sexy singles near youDate: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:37:23 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.228.18X-Original-From: Andrea Chason Subject: [origamiboats] Date horny adults for a good fucking nightDate: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 17:37:23 -0300X-Originating-IP: 198.50.228.18X-Original-From: Andrea Chason Subject: [origamiboats] Free hookup in your city tonightMy deleted folder only goes back to the 17th, so I have no more records of the spam.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 11:48:19 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] SPAM invasion   Look at who actually sent it .. in the header info in every post. It can be a members pc, compromised via botware. See if the ip is the same every time. Ctrl_u in thunderbird. For example, you sent mail from "X-Originating-IP: 96.54.190.40 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 96.54.190.40 From: "northcanoe@... [origamiboats]" " On 25/01/2015 20:32, northcanoe@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > I'm on it, looking into how to block these spammers. Very odd, as they > don't appear to be members of the group, and only members can post. > I'll ask the Yahoo people about it, if I can't block them. > > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31827|31722|2015-01-26 11:09:34|Hannu Venermo|Re: SPAM invasion|Ok, cool. I suggested this as a possibility only .. but it is also possible its a (legimate?) members account at yahoo, but using a network of spambots to actually send them. Or.. in some cases the ip addresses may be fake. I dont know how common this is, anymore, as I dont deal with PC IT stuff as much as I used to. Fwiw.. ATM, I am engaged in refitting my bigger lathe, which is retrofit to cnc, building another lathe, and refitting my milling machine. All to new modern commercial specs, such as You would get buying an industrial machine today. I expect to be able to make boat components efficiently, in the near future. Literally anything, including scratch building injectors for a diesel engine, or any engine component. Not that I would, or it would be commercially profitable, but that I could, at (enough) need. Grin. I went from IT to building cnc milling machines. Cheers, h- On 26/01/2015 16:29, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Hannu, > > > (Results first) > > After going back through all the posters (all of the regulars) back to > Nov 23, If it is a member's computer, the only even possible candidate is: -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31828|31812|2015-01-26 11:21:40|theboilerflue|Re: Trim tab details|I used a large D stainless shackle as the middle "pintle" so as though yo can take the pin out and remoce the tab without having to drop it out through the middle pintle. It's very hardy when you're dried out and want to take the tab off, otherwise you have to wait till you're floating then drop the tab out, wait till you dry out ect... Now I can take it off work on it and replace it all on one tide. The middle pintle doesn't need to touch the shaft of the tab it just has to be there to catch it to stop it from bending to distortion when you catch a log on it or something else -like some pesky four year old who likes screwing with self steering systems.Also handy for the ring leading the furling line onto the drum of the furler, when something bad happens and you need to pass the whole bundle of line around the drum to untangle things, no need to pass the whole line through the ring.| 31830|31722|2015-01-26 15:09:27|brentswain38|Re: SPAM invasion|Thanks Alex. I'm heading  out cruising and was worried about them piling up while I'm gone. I hope you can keep deleting them.Thanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm on it, looking into how to block these spammers. Very odd, as they don't appear to be members of the group, and only members can post. I'll ask the Yahoo people about it, if I can't block them. Alex| 31831|31810|2015-01-26 15:17:18|brentswain38|Re: Ice Reinforcments|You could, but you don't want to increase weight in the ends. That leads to hobby horsing. I found that ramming 5 inch ice at hull speed does no damage, so there is no point in going heavier for that reason. Hitting 5 inch ice at hull speed broke about 3 feet of ice per hit. The only paint chipped off was on the leading edges of the keels and the centreline. The rest just slide over the ice, ice breaker style , and the weight of the boat broke down thru it , without damaging the paint .While one of the best decisions I ever made on my boat was going for twin keels , that is largely because of our 17 ft tides. In  a lake with zero tides , you would get little advantage in twin keels, but it could be very hard to get a boat off a bad grounding with  twin keels.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have wondered if you could make your main hull plates of two different thicknesses of steel? The lower section(s) of a heavier gauge, and the upper section(s) of a lighter gauge? The initial plate-joining weld lines would be different than where Brent recommends, and I'm not sure how the final plate would bend, being composed of two (or more) different plate thicknesses?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Well, you have Brent's advice.  If you did not have the hull steel yet, I would have recommended asking Brent about going one size thicker on the hull plate itself.   Compression stiffness of a shell is greatly increased with increased thickness....Matt#ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-303179629 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328 #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384 .ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-303179629ygrps-yiv-33107328ygrps-yiv-1352513384ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31832|31722|2015-01-26 15:31:00|brentswain38|Re: SPAM invasion|Alex Check out that message waiting for approval. That looks like the computer which is being hacked. Smoking gun?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks Alex. I'm heading  out cruising and was worried about them piling up while I'm gone. I hope you can keep deleting them.Thanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm on it, looking into how to block these spammers. Very odd, as they don't appear to be members of the group, and only members can post. I'll ask the Yahoo people about it, if I can't block them. Alex| 31843|31812|2015-01-28 09:05:17|frerepere|Re: Trim tab details|Second attempt different account. I suspect someone is working on the spam problem? Anyway. I need the specs on the trim tab and shaft. Is it 1/2" tube. What is the skin material and the dimensions? I just don't have any tab info in my plans and would like to finish my rudder project Thanks for the D ring info. Not quit picturing it but something to study Par| 31844|31812|2015-01-28 16:04:18|brentswain38|Re: Trim tab details|I use half inch SS  sch 40 pipe for the trim tab shaft. It is just over 3/4 inch OD, and just under 5/8th ID, and is very common. Page 41 of my book describes how to build the trim tab. Leaving the keels off the hull while detailing, as long as possible, greatly reduces the amount of climbing needed. One should always leave them off until the lifelines are on. Less distance to fall.| 31846|31812|2015-01-28 17:03:52|frerepere|Re: Trim tab details|Ok. So should I up the width from 5" to 5.5 or go to 6 " by five feet for the 40'?? Thanks for the pointer. I've read that page so many times and missed some of the info. Must be the Tittos Par| 31851|31851|2015-01-30 09:27:49|smallboatvoyaguer|SS shaft for leading edge of skeg|  So, I have a 5 foot section of stainless (guessing 316 since it's a propeller shaft) inch and half propeller shaft I was thinking about using for the leading edge of the skeg. It was a freeby. Can anybody think of a reason for me not to do this?  My skeg building has been quite the process. The first time I started to build it with pipe for the leading edge ( going off a photo I saw somewhere) and then I felt weird so double checked the plans and there it was: Brent calling for shaft not pipe. So, I cut the tacks off and went to get a piece of shaft from the yard. All they had in the proper dimension was cold rolled, or supposedly that's what it was. Got home, built the skeg a second time only to have the welds start popping when I began to pull it together. I looked under the welds and noticed that it was the weld separating from the cold rolled shaft. Where the weld had been was a sort of flaky crystallized metal. Needless to say, I cut the welds off and pulled the skeg apart a second time. The fucking cold rolled or whatever it was was expensive, but man I wanted to build that skeg and the guy at the yard insisted it would weld fine. It didn't, I wasted money, and now I am eyeballing this huge stainless shaft I got for free.| 31853|31851|2015-01-30 09:33:08|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg|The photo I saw of someone using pipe is in the book. And the book mentions using pipe for the leading edge, yet the plans say shaft. Which is it? Does it even matter? I swear half of my time is spent going between the book, forum, plans, DVD, and photos just trying to figure out what is the sure way to do something. The editing is the weak link in the chain. Ha! | 31857|31851|2015-01-30 20:08:30|Aaron|Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg|Welding cold roll take a good pre heat 200 to 250  but if it was harder material like 4140 shaft steel then you need to weld at 450 F. wrap and let cool down very slow.1-1/2" round stock is a lot smaller than the OD of 1-1/2"  pipe. get a piece of 1-1/2"  sch 80 or sch 160 Aaron  From: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 5:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] SS shaft for leading edge of skeg     So, I have a 5 foot section of stainless (guessing 316 since it's a propeller shaft) inch and half propeller shaft I was thinking about using for the leading edge of the skeg. It was a freeby. Can anybody think of a reason for me not to do this?  My skeg building has been quite the process. The first time I started to build it with pipe for the leading edge ( going off a photo I saw somewhere) and then I felt weird so double checked the plans and there it was: Brent calling for shaft not pipe. So, I cut the tacks off and went to get a piece of shaft from the yard. All they had in the proper dimension was cold rolled, or supposedly that's what it was. Got home, built the skeg a second time only to have the welds start popping when I began to pull it together. I looked under the welds and noticed that it was the weld separating from the cold rolled shaft. Where the weld had been was a sort of flaky crystallized metal. Needless to say, I cut the welds off and pulled the skeg apart a second time. The fucking cold rolled or whatever it was was expensive, but man I wanted to build that skeg and the guy at the yard insisted it would weld fine. It didn't, I wasted money, and now I am eyeballing this huge stainless shaft I got for free. #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 -- #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992activity span .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 dd.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 dd.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 dd.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992last p span.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 div#ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 .ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 input, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992 #ygrps-yiv-1070510867yiv6234935992ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1070510867 | 31859|31851|2015-01-31 00:36:34|James Pronk|Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg|Is it pipe for the single keel? I know it's solid round for bilge keels. James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg Sent: Fri, Jan 30, 2015 2:33:07 PM   The photo I saw of someone using pipe is in the book. And the book mentions using pipe for the leading edge, yet the plans say shaft. Which is it? Does it even matter? I swear half of my time is spent going between the book, forum, plans, DVD, and photos just trying to figure out what is the sure way to do something. The editing is the weak link in the chain. Ha!  | 31863|31851|2015-01-31 09:02:00|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg| This is on the 31 footer. For the mono-keel the plan calls for 6"  1/2" thick pipe. For the skeg it calls for 1.5 inch round stock.| 31864|31864|2015-01-31 09:30:50|aguysailing|wifi antenna|Inside the hull the wifi signal is weak at this dock here in Port Alberni.  Outside the hull no problem.  Anyone using an antenna outside with USB or whatever connection  back inside to the computer that works ok?... thanks| 31865|31812|2015-01-31 12:32:50|jaybeecherbay|Re: Trim tab details|I will be making my trim tab for a 36' real soon...  What are the desired measurements for the trim tab plate?  use 16 guage stainless?many thanksJ.| 31866|31812|2015-01-31 12:57:03|theboilerflue|Re: Trim tab details|It's more simple then it sounds. Well normally the pintle is a stainless ring right?, well the shackle is a ring that opens so you can take the shaft out without having to drop the shaft out of it.| 31867|31851|2015-01-31 13:02:51|theboilerflue|Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg|Try heating the shaft up with a torch so it's glowing red hot then weld it with some good rod like something in the 8000 series, that jetrod they use in the drilling industry or something like that. The leading edge of the keels is also shaft, or you can use pipe and hammer a shaft down into the pipe later.| 31868|31851|2015-01-31 13:05:26|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: SS shaft for leading edge of skeg|Thanks. I've decided to just get the mild steel 1.5" shaft called for in the plans. I'll use the spare shafts for something else. After seeing those welds pop off I can't confidently build the skeg with the cold rolled.| 31869|31869|2015-01-31 13:11:04|jaybeecherbay|Diesel tank epoxy sealer.|I have an unfinished diesel tank located between the bilge keels that i am working on.  I bought this boat as is, and someone started the tanks already.  the welds do not look good, and I am trying to decide whether to fix the tank by rewelding it all properly, or sandblast and use a good epoxy tank sealer to eliminate any pin hole leaks.  Are most painting/sealing inside tanks these days...?  many thanksJ.| 31870|31864|2015-01-31 14:24:04|Darren Bos|Re: wifi antenna| I experimented with an Alfa AWUS036NH wifi adapter this summer when at dock in the Gulf Islands.  http://www.amazon.ca/High-Gain-Long-Range-Alfa-9dBi-Strongest/dp/B0035BGNWU/ref=pd_cp_ce_1 It worked well and picked up a strong signal when the internal wifi antenna on the laptop was struggling or had no signal at all.  When at dock (boat not rolling), the 9dBi antenna worked well.  I suspect the 5dBi antenna would work better when the boat is rolling around a bit, but I didn't get much chance to test this theory.  I did leave the 9dBi antenna in the rain once, but mostly it lived within the pilothouse and often had a good signal through the window there.  The wire from the external antenna to the wifi adapter is about 3.5 feet long and the USB wire from the wifi adapter to the computer is closer to five feet long.  I think Alfa also makes antennas designed for outdoor use, but I have no experience with them (could also seal the regular 9dBi antenna in a piece of PVC pipe).   I think it is also possible to set up a wifi repeater using the internal wifi adapter in your laptop to transmit inside your boat to your other devices, however I haven't tried this yet.  Alfa also sells a wifi repeater for another $50.  The base of the antenna is magnetic so be careful to keep it away from your compass.  I've been using the antenna with Ubuntu, check that it works with your operating system. Darren On 15-01-31 06:30 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Inside the hull the wifi signal is weak at this dock here in Port Alberni.  Outside the hull no problem.  Anyone using an antenna outside with USB or whatever connection  back inside to the computer that works ok? ... thanks | 31872|31864|2015-01-31 14:56:02|opuspaul|Re: wifi antenna|I have used a similar setup to the Alfa and it worked well in marinas over short distances.  I used mine sealed inside a ziplock bag.   If you really want to go long range of more than a  mile, a power over ethernet system is a little more expensive but it is higher powered and works much better.  Power over ethernet allows you to put the antenna higher up the mast.  A lot of the USB powered systems are touchy and will not work through a long USB cable.The system I am using is a Ubiquiti Bullet 2HP with a 12db antenna. I think there is a new model now called the M2.   I regularly get across a bay of several miles with it.   If you want them to last, don't trust the seals on anything you buy.  Use lots of self amalgamating rubber tape.There are lots of people selling kits for a large amount of money but if you do it yourself it isn't too bad.http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-BULLET-M2-HP-Outdoor-802-11-M2HP/dp/B002SYS22E Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I experimented with an Alfa AWUS036NH wifi adapter this summer when at dock in the Gulf Islands.  http://www.amazon.ca/High-Gain-Long-Range-Alfa-9dBi-Strongest/dp/B0035BGNWU/ref=pd_cp_ce_1 It worked well and picked up a strong signal when the internal wifi antenna on the laptop was struggling or had no signal at all.  When at dock (boat not rolling), the 9dBi antenna worked well.  I suspect the 5dBi antenna would work better when the boat is rolling around a bit, but I didn't get much chance to test this theory.  I did leave the 9dBi antenna in the rain once, but mostly it lived within the pilothouse and often had a good signal through the window there.  The wire from the external antenna to the wifi adapter is about 3.5 feet long and the USB wire from the wifi adapter to the computer is closer to five feet long.  I think Alfa also makes antennas designed for outdoor use, but I have no experience with them (could also seal the regular 9dBi antenna in a piece of PVC pipe).   I think it is also possible to set up a wifi repeater using the internal wifi adapter in your laptop to transmit inside your boat to your other devices, however I haven't tried this yet.  Alfa also sells a wifi repeater for another $50.  The base of the antenna is magnetic so be careful to keep it away from your compass.  I've been using the antenna with Ubuntu, check that it works with your operating system. Darren On 15-01-31 06:30 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Inside the hull the wifi signal is weak at this dock here in Port Alberni.  Outside the hull no problem.  Anyone using an antenna outside with USB or whatever connection  back inside to the computer that works ok? ... thanks | 31873|31869|2015-01-31 15:03:26|opuspaul|Re: Diesel tank epoxy sealer.|I would absolutely paint the tanks with an approved high build epoxy.   There will always be a little bit of water in tanks and if you paint them they will be worry free for decades.   If in doubt, I would reweld it while you can get at it.   Having to fix tanks later is a nightmare.  Epoxy can fill and seal a lot of errors but diesel is great at wicking in and finding any weak spots.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have an unfinished diesel tank located between the bilge keels that i am working on.  I bought this boat as is, and someone started the tanks already.  the welds do not look good, and I am trying to decide whether to fix the tank by rewelding it all properly, or sandblast and use a good epoxy tank sealer to eliminate any pin hole leaks.  Are most painting/sealing inside tanks these days...?  many thanksJ.| 31874|31812|2015-01-31 15:30:14|opuspaul|Re: Trim tab details|My trim tab was made from 16 or 18 guage SS plate bent around about 4 or 5  SS airfoil shaped plate forms welded to the shaft.  The area of the tab is about 15 or 20% of the rudder area and it is slightly behind the trailing edge of the rudder.   The pivot point is 20% behind the leading edge of the tab so it is balanced and easy to turn with the vane.   I had a friend TIG weld it for me.   I think if I tried stick welding such thin plate, I would have made a mess of it.   The bushings are just SS pipe with cut-up bleach bottle bearings.  I can slip it out if the boat is high enough in the boat yard or dig a hole but I like Haidan's idea of having the center bearing removable.  The shaft on mine is solid 5/8 inch SS rod.  Whatever you use, it should be well supported.  I have had breaking waves slam in to the tab from the side when hove-to offshore and without all three bearings it would have folded in half.   You can see pictures of my trim tab here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/Maybe it is just like in Brent's book......I built mine before Brent had his book out.  I am supposed to have the book but I can't seem to find it.   Now who did I lend it too.....:(.Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I will be making my trim tab for a 36' real soon...  What are the desired measurements for the trim tab plate?  use 16 guage stainless?many thanksJ.| 31875|31869|2015-01-31 15:34:14|jaybeecherbay|Re: Diesel tank epoxy sealer.|thank you Paul.  Do you know of a good approved epoxy?  I have found a few products that are made for lining steel tanks:Damon Industries Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner Damon Industries Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner Damon Industries manufactures Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner and Over-Kote for protecting the outside of gas tanks. View on damonq.com Preview by Yahoo http://www.densona.com/pdfs/Denso-Archco/Denso-Archco-400HB-Epoxy.pdfhttp://bluemagicusa.com/index.php/blue_magic/products/176/| 31876|31864|2015-01-31 15:55:07|bcboomer1948|Re: wifi antenna|I've got this: Alfa 2000mw 2W Waterproof Marine high power Long Range Outdoor 802.11 B, G, N, USB wireless network Wifi Adaptor with Integrated 12dBi Antenna - Up to 150mpsstrapped to my radar mast and it works well.  I can get a good signal from routers that I couldn't even "see" without it.  Cheap too, bought it from Amazon for $35..... before the CAD tanked.| 31878|31869|2015-01-31 20:56:36|opuspaul|Re: Diesel tank epoxy sealer.|I honestly can't remember what I used on my boat...it is too long ago and I am too old.  There are many types of specialty products which usually have a specialty price :).  All your links might work just fine.   Some products are more rubber-like than paint-like.   We used one on aircraft but it was about $400 a pint.   I would try to use a general purpose two part epoxy.   If you have any left over, you can use it somewhere else.I would contact PPG (Ameron) and Carboline (Altex) or International and see what they recommend.  The paint companies are constantly buying each other out and changing the names so it gets confusing.I know of quite a few people who have used Devoe Bar Rust 235 (now Carboline 235?)  or Amerlock 2 (400) on fuel tanks.   They are both excellent products but if I read the data sheets I can't see where it is actually approved for constant diesel immersion.Carboguard 540/640 is also an excellent general purpose epoxy.  I think it is approved for fuel tanks but you better confirm.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :thank you Paul.  Do you know of a good approved epoxy?  I have found a few products that are made for lining steel tanks:Damon Industries Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner Damon Industries Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner Damon Industries manufactures Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner and Over-Kote for protecting the outside of gas tanks. View on damonq.com Preview by Yahoo http://www.densona.com/pdfs/Denso-Archco/Denso-Archco-400HB-Epoxy.pdfhttp://bluemagicusa.com/index.php/blue_magic/products/176/| 31885|31869|2015-02-01 18:41:18|brentswain38|Re: Diesel tank epoxy sealer.|\\\We have had good results with two part epoxy tar on diesel tanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I honestly can't remember what I used on my boat...it is too long ago and I am too old.  There are many types of specialty products which usually have a specialty price :).  All your links might work just fine.   Some products are more rubber-like than paint-like.   We used one on aircraft but it was about $400 a pint.   I would try to use a general purpose two part epoxy.   If you have any left over, you can use it somewhere else.I would contact PPG (Ameron) and Carboline (Altex) or International and see what they recommend.  The paint companies are constantly buying each other out and changing the names so it gets confusing.I know of quite a few people who have used Devoe Bar Rust 235 (now Carboline 235?)  or Amerlock 2 (400) on fuel tanks.   They are both excellent products but if I read the data sheets I can't see where it is actually approved for constant diesel immersion.Carboguard 540/640 is also an excellent general purpose epoxy.  I think it is approved for fuel tanks but you better confirm.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :thank you Paul.  Do you know of a good approved epoxy?  I have found a few products that are made for lining steel tanks:Damon Industries Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner Damon Industries Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner Damon Industries manufactures Red-Kote Gas Tank Liner and Over-Kote for protecting the outside of gas tanks. View on damonq.com Preview by Yahoo http://www.densona.com/pdfs/Denso-Archco/Denso-Archco-400HB-Epoxy.pdfhttp://bluemagicusa.com/index.php/blue_magic/products/176/| 31886|31886|2015-02-01 19:12:24|brentswain38|Safe electric heater| A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere.| 31887|31886|2015-02-01 20:30:53|a.sobriquet|Re: Safe electric heater|If there is at least one inch of head space in your friend's canning jars then he need not worry about the jars breaking if they should freeze. You can safely freeze food in glass canning jars.http://www.freshpreserving.com/tools/freezing-foodhttp://www.rootsimple.com/2013/02/how-to-freeze-food-in-canning-jars/http://lifeyourway.net/how-to-freeze-food-in-glass-jars/    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. | 31888|31886|2015-02-01 21:23:10|James Pronk|Re: Safe electric heater|I like it! When I build my stove I'll make sure an electric space heater will fit in it.Thank you,James From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 12:12:23 AM    A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere. | 31893|31869|2015-02-02 11:33:02|jay hand|Re: Diesel tank epoxy sealer.|west marine turbo dryer| 31894|31886|2015-02-02 14:01:35|Robert Jones|Re: Safe electric heater|If leaving a heater on to keep things from freezing, i would suggest one of these thermostats. You would turn the heater on and plug into this thermostat. This one would let you lower the temp that the heater  would come on, thus reducing consumption, and stress on the heater. The cube comes on at 35 degrees F. I have used them on well heaters for years and never had a problem. Don't overload with huge heater.  Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically Controlled Outlet - On at 35-Degrees/Off at 45-Degrees       Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Therm...Amazon.com : Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically Controlled Outlet - On at 35-Degrees/Off at 45-Degrees : Electrical Multi Outlets : P...View on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo   This one is for larger units that draw more amps.       Johnson Controls Digital Thermostat Control UnitAmazon.com: Johnson Controls Digital Thermostat Control Unit: Home ImprovementView on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo  On Sunday, February 1, 2015 8:23 PM, "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I like it! When I build my stove I'll make sure an electric space heater will fit in it.Thank you,James From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 12:12:23 AM    A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere. #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 -- #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004activity span .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 dd.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 dd.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 dd.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004last p span.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 div#ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 .ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 input, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004 #ygrps-yiv-1650592022yiv6033445004ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1650592022 | 31896|31886|2015-02-02 20:19:25|Matt Malone|Re: Safe electric heater| Brent,Electric heaters do not do well in a box, even with the door off.   It would be almost like disconnecting the fan on a heater that needs a fan blowing across its coils.   Electric heaters would not do well in with soot, it is combustible, conductive, and the salts in ash are abrasive and they form glasses at relatively low temperatures -- glass would build up on brushes and on red-hot coils, insulating them.  If something is trying to get rid of heat, insulating it is bad.   Portable electric heaters also have a tip-over switch in them, and they will not work unless upright.  This might not fit the plan.   It may not be safe to leave an electric heater going on a particular boat for any one of a hundred reasons, things that can go wrong on a particular boat, for instance, a build up of fuel vapours and boom.  If it were safe on a particular boat, I would think the safest option would be to have an all-steel cased heater (they can be purchased for about the same price as the plastic case ones, just keep looking) hang it from a short length of aircraft cable from the roof of the cabin and put a few eye bolts in the bottom and bungee it down tight, so it is feet from any surface and does not move around too much.  You can increase reliability of the thermostatic control on most of those cheap heaters by putting them to maximum heat and fan and removing the plastic knob, and then plug it into a box with a home thermostat and motor-approved high current relay in an electrical box.  Add a fuse in the box two that is just over the rating of the heater if you like also.   Make sure the thermostat is one that can do fan heat not just electric heat.  Most have a programmable setting because on the electric heat setting the thermostat will pulse-width modulate and destroy the fan by turning on and off rapidly.   I have such a set up for my garage, but, I remove all flammable liquids like gasoline from the garage before putting it on.   I also do not have it on when I am away from home. Be very careful of using the 120V installed wiring in the boat.   The isolation transformer and the wiring in the hull may not be up to the current draw of (a) heater(s).   I have personally dug through a boat that burned to the water line, sunk and was raised.  "Fire started spraying out of the plugs and panelling and I jumped overboard."   He was saved by the owner of a neighbouring boat before hypothermia took him -- he was still in the hospital when I saw his boat.   I have dug through a few fires were a cord led to a heater in a vehicle.  I have not found a case yet were the heater was the source of the problem, it was always the wiring leading to it.   Extension cords can burn like a fuse.   If I were to do this, I would be thinking about a proper outdoor contractor cord that was made for double the current I was drawing, and I would mount it carefully through a vent or something with chafe protection, and then I would take great care to make sure nothing in the boat was incompatible with a heater running in a closed space.  The alternative is boom.  With a steel boat, I don't know if you would pop out all the ports, or whether the hull could be damaged.A dozen or so low-wattage incandescent lights, properly suspended or mounted will waste electricity and produce heat just as effectively as most heaters.   Low wattage bulbs have the advantage of being a lot cooler on the outer envelope than the coils in a heater, so, there are fewer problems that will lead to boom.   Boom is still possible, it is just a lot easier with a red-hot glowing coil in the airflow.   Putting lights where they are needed will work too.   People use lights in their crawlspaces to keep their pipes from freezing in the winter and it is easy to see if the lights are working or not.     I think it might be easier to winterize, and put all the preserves in a tote to take them away. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:12:23 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater    A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere. | 31897|31886|2015-02-02 20:23:47|Matt Malone|Re: Safe electric heater| Those are cool.  On at 40F, off at 45F would be better.  The plumbing code says pipes have to be maintained at or above 40F / 5C (margin for error, variations in temperature due to drafts and such.)Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 18:58:24 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater   If leaving a heater on to keep things from freezing, i would suggest one of these thermostats. You would turn the heater on and plug into this thermostat. This one would let you lower the temp that the heater  would come on, thus reducing consumption, and stress on the heater. The cube comes on at 35 degrees F. I have used them on well heaters for years and never had a problem. Don't overload with huge heater.  Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically Controlled Outlet - On at 35-Degrees/Off at 45-Degrees       Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Therm...Amazon.com : Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically Controlled Outlet - On at 35-Degrees/Off at 45-Degrees : Electrical Multi Outlets : P...View on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo   This one is for larger units that draw more amps.       Johnson Controls Digital Thermostat Control UnitAmazon.com: Johnson Controls Digital Thermostat Control Unit: Home ImprovementView on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo  On Sunday, February 1, 2015 8:23 PM, "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I like it! When I build my stove I'll make sure an electric space heater will fit in it.Thank you,James From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 12:12:23 AM    A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere. | 31899|31886|2015-02-02 21:46:54|Robert Jones|Re: Safe electric heater|Matt, here is a 38degree Easy Heat EH-38 Freeze Thermostatically Controlled Valve and Pipe Heating System       Easy Heat EH-38 Freeze Thermostatically Controlled Valv...Find the biggest selection of products from Easy Heat with the lowest prices. Shop online for mowers, grills, garden tools, generators, snow blowers and more at Ama...View on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo    On Monday, February 2, 2015 7:23 PM, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Those are cool.  On at 40F, off at 45F would be better.  The plumbing code says pipes have to be maintained at or above 40F / 5C (margin for error, variations in temperature due to drafts and such.)Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 18:58:24 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater   If leaving a heater on to keep things from freezing, i would suggest one of these thermostats. You would turn the heater on and plug into this thermostat. This one would let you lower the temp that the heater  would come on, thus reducing consumption, and stress on the heater. The cube comes on at 35 degrees F. I have used them on well heaters for years and never had a problem. Don't overload with huge heater.  Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically Controlled Outlet - On at 35-Degrees/Off at 45-Degrees       Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Therm...Amazon.com : Farm Innovators TC-3 Cold Weather Thermo Cube Thermostatically Controlled Outlet - On at 35-Degrees/Off at 45-Degrees : Electrical Multi Outlets : P...View on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo   This one is for larger units that draw more amps.       Johnson Controls Digital Thermostat Control UnitAmazon.com: Johnson Controls Digital Thermostat Control Unit: Home ImprovementView on www.amazon.comPreview by Yahoo  On Sunday, February 1, 2015 8:23 PM, "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I like it! When I build my stove I'll make sure an electric space heater will fit in it.Thank you,James From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 12:12:23 AM    A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere. #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 -- #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782activity span .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 dd.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 dd.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 dd.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782last p span.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 div#ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 .ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 input, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782 #ygrps-yiv-1132229864yiv1906260782ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1132229864 | 31900|31886|2015-02-02 21:47:49|wild_explorer|Re: Safe electric heater|I do not know correct name for it... Dielectric heater? The main idea is to use low frequency AC (50/60 Hz). We just used big sheet of dielectric panel - some household/building panel. Connect wires from AC outlet to the panel.If I remember correctly, we drilled the hole on each end of dielectric sheet, put bolts through it, and connected wires to the bolts. The panel was worm to touch (not hot) by hand. Because of big area of the panel (2 worm sides) it was slightly warming up a room (several degrees). Was very safe as well - very low heat.| 31905|31886|2015-02-03 11:55:33|theboilerflue|Re: Safe electric heater|You can always use the age old light bulb mounted in a section of thin steel chimney pipe with a sheet metal lid. You hardly need to heat the boat much when you're not there, just need enough to create some air flow and dry the boat out.| 31906|31886|2015-02-03 14:57:07|venturehullscanadaincorporated|Re: Safe electric heater|A word of caution here . This is brilliant , and sometimes works quite well , not always . The stovepipe is tin , and conducts electricity . Salt water also conducts electricity . Lets assume that you progress away from a 40 watt light bulb which keeps your timbers dry , and begin to experiment , say , with a portable car interior heater . These are high performance heaters , and will , with household current , 115 volts , use between 15 and close to 20 amps of electricity . They work , your vessel's interior will be kept cozy warm , and in the morning , there are no explosive fumes , the air inside the cabin is as warm as you like . Perfect . What you don't see is this :That stovepipe is cut tin , and has sharp edges , which you cleverly avoid when you lower a power extension cord down into your airtight wood heater .Then you plug in the electric car heater , seal everything from the elements , and go on vacation , or go home for the night . That car heater will heat up a lot of cubic footage of airspace , quite quickly , and have heat to spare . It may cost as much as $35.00 per night in electricity - Bargain .When the tin chimney gets warm , and it will , it will melt through that extension cord , and short out 20 amps of current at the breaker . This can cause an electrical fire which can consume your vessel , in 15 minutes .| 31909|31886|2015-02-03 21:22:38|garyhlucas|Re: Safe electric heater| After watching all the ideas here, realizing that electric heaters are just plain dangerous I have another thought for you.  Self-limiting heat tracing tape.  It works with a conductive polymer whose resistance increases with temperature.  So it doesn’t need a thermostat and can be wrapped around anything without generating dangerous heat. So you could protect your piping and through hulls and such and add a small amount of warmth to the boat to keep it dry.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 11:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater     You can always use the age old light bulb mounted in a section of thin steel chimney pipe with a sheet metal lid. You hardly need to heat the boat much when you're not there, just need enough to create some air flow and dry the boat out.| 31916|31886|2015-02-04 21:14:19|Robert Jones|Re: Safe electric heater|Two years ago during -5F, we had a heat strip on a faucet malfunction and melt down.Had used successfully many times before. I found it melted to bare wire and dripping plastic. Not sure what went wrong On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:22 PM, "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   After watching all the ideas here, realizing that electric heaters are just plain dangerous I have another thought for you.  Self-limiting heat tracing tape.  It works with a conductive polymer whose resistance increases with temperature.  So it doesn’t need a thermostat and can be wrapped around anything without generating dangerous heat. So you could protect your piping and through hulls and such and add a small amount of warmth to the boat to keep it dry.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 11:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater     You can always use the age old light bulb mounted in a section of thin steel chimney pipe with a sheet metal lid. You hardly need to heat the boat much when you're not there, just need enough to create some air flow and dry the boat out. #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 -- #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612activity span .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 dd.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 dd.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 dd.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612last p span.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 div#ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 .ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 input, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612 #ygrps-yiv-812023575yiv1430699612ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-812023575 | 31917|31886|2015-02-04 21:25:10|garyhlucas|Re: Safe electric heater| Yes, That is a typical heat tracing, not self-regulating. They overheat very easily, especially if it crosses over itself.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater     Two years ago during -5F, we had a heat strip on a faucet malfunction and melt down.Had used successfully many times before. I found it melted to bare wire and dripping plastic. Not sure what went wrong On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:22 PM, "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   After watching all the ideas here, realizing that electric heaters are just plain dangerous I have another thought for you.  Self-limiting heat tracing tape.  It works with a conductive polymer whose resistance increases with temperature.  So it doesn’t need a thermostat and can be wrapped around anything without generating dangerous heat. So you could protect your piping and through hulls and such and add a small amount of warmth to the boat to keep it dry.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 11:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater     You can always use the age old light bulb mounted in a section of thin steel chimney pipe with a sheet metal lid. You hardly need to heat the boat much when you're not there, just need enough to create some air flow and dry the boat out. | 31922|31722|2015-02-05 11:55:00|wild_explorer|Re: SPAM invasion|Alex, please send me PM. I cannot find this option anymore in the posts (to send private message to a member). I would be glad to help to get rid of spam (if you need extra hands to monitor/approve messages).I know, it might be inconvenient and slows down new messages on a board from members, but spam is much more annoying.| 31923|31886|2015-02-05 16:00:55|Matt Malone|Re: Safe electric heater| I think the subject line might be "Safer" Electric Heater.   There is always a case where something can go wrong, in time, if left unattended, in a closed space with fuels, that rocks back and forth with waves.   Some of the heat trace tape is pretty basic, just an ordinary resistance wire buried in plastic, and, if it is wrapped on a spool, it will melt the plastic and fail.   There are materials with a strong thermal coefficient of resistance can be self-limiting, their resistance increases so fast with temperature, they choke off their own current just over the normal operating temperature.  These materials might be a sheet, or cord-like or the ceramic element inside a portable heater.   They work because of careful chemistry.   Salt water environments mess with every other chemistry, so, I am not sure anything in particular would be good in the long term.   Here is a particular article on tank heaters: http://www.processtechnology.com/pdf/SmartOnearticle.pdf270C is really hot.   Other descriptions would leave the reader more re-assured:http://www.xtremeheaters.com/ptcBut the heater is not the only potential trouble point.  There is the plug.  Salt can corrode and degrade the connection at the plug, causing a fire there.   The cord can chafe.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 02:11:19 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater   Two years ago during -5F, we had a heat strip on a faucet malfunction and melt down.Had used successfully many times before. I found it melted to bare wire and dripping plastic. Not sure what went wrong On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:22 PM, "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   After watching all the ideas here, realizing that electric heaters are just plain dangerous I have another thought for you.  Self-limiting heat tracing tape.  It works with a conductive polymer whose resistance increases with temperature.  So it doesn’t need a thermostat and can be wrapped around anything without generating dangerous heat. So you could protect your piping and through hulls and such and add a small amount of warmth to the boat to keep it dry.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 11:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater     You can always use the age old light bulb mounted in a section of thin steel chimney pipe with a sheet metal lid. You hardly need to heat the boat much when you're not there, just need enough to create some air flow and dry the boat out. | 31925|31886|2015-02-05 17:38:33|brentswain38|Re: Safe electric heater|It seems like the simplest heaters, which were simply nichrome wire around a ceramic may be the best choice for this use..It would no doubt be a f good idea to clean the firebox out thoroughly before leaving the heater in. Stuffing the stove pipe around the extension cord with aluminium foil will stop draft from sucking the heat up the chimney. My brother was a fireman most of his life. He said they have seen fires start in department stores. Despite there being plenty of combustibles around , once the oxygen was used up, the fire went out. Maybe a simple heater, which uses no motor,in a sealed stove would  eliminate the chance of problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Brent,Electric heaters do not do well in a box, even with the door off.   It would be almost like disconnecting the fan on a heater that needs a fan blowing across its coils.   Electric heaters would not do well in with soot, it is combustible, conductive, and the salts in ash are abrasive and they form glasses at relatively low temperatures -- glass would build up on brushes and on red-hot coils, insulating them.  If something is trying to get rid of heat, insulating it is bad.   Portable electric heaters also have a tip-over switch in them, and they will not work unless upright.  This might not fit the plan.   It may not be safe to leave an electric heater going on a particular boat for any one of a hundred reasons, things that can go wrong on a particular boat, for instance, a build up of fuel vapours and boom.  If it were safe on a particular boat, I would think the safest option would be to have an all-steel cased heater (they can be purchased for about the same price as the plastic case ones, just keep looking) hang it from a short length of aircraft cable from the roof of the cabin and put a few eye bolts in the bottom and bungee it down tight, so it is feet from any surface and does not move around too much.  You can increase reliability of the thermostatic control on most of those cheap heaters by putting them to maximum heat and fan and removing the plastic knob, and then plug it into a box with a home thermostat and motor-approved high current relay in an electrical box.  Add a fuse in the box two that is just over the rating of the heater if you like also.   Make sure the thermostat is one that can do fan heat not just electric heat.  Most have a programmable setting because on the electric heat setting the thermostat will pulse-width modulate and destroy the fan by turning on and off rapidly.   I have such a set up for my garage, but, I remove all flammable liquids like gasoline from the garage before putting it on.   I also do not have it on when I am away from home. Be very careful of using the 120V installed wiring in the boat.   The isolation transformer and the wiring in the hull may not be up to the current draw of (a) heater(s).   I have personally dug through a boat that burned to the water line, sunk and was raised.  "Fire started spraying out of the plugs and panelling and I jumped overboard."   He was saved by the owner of a neighbouring boat before hypothermia took him -- he was still in the hospital when I saw his boat.   I have dug through a few fires were a cord led to a heater in a vehicle.  I have not found a case yet were the heater was the source of the problem, it was always the wiring leading to it.   Extension cords can burn like a fuse.   If I were to do this, I would be thinking about a proper outdoor contractor cord that was made for double the current I was drawing, and I would mount it carefully through a vent or something with chafe protection, and then I would take great care to make sure nothing in the boat was incompatible with a heater running in a closed space.  The alternative is boom.  With a steel boat, I don't know if you would pop out all the ports, or whether the hull could be damaged.A dozen or so low-wattage incandescent lights, properly suspended or mounted will waste electricity and produce heat just as effectively as most heaters.   Low wattage bulbs have the advantage of being a lot cooler on the outer envelope than the coils in a heater, so, there are fewer problems that will lead to boom.   Boom is still possible, it is just a lot easier with a red-hot glowing coil in the airflow.   Putting lights where they are needed will work too.   People use lights in their crawlspaces to keep their pipes from freezing in the winter and it is easy to see if the lights are working or not.     I think it might be easier to winterize, and put all the preserves in a tote to take them away. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:12:23 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Safe electric heater   A friend was talking about leaving his boat at the dock while he flew south.I sugested if his canning jars froze they would all break. He suggested an electric heater. I have always been apprehensive about leaving  heater going while I was not aboard. Then it dawned on me that most boats have an absolutely inflammable conduit, the stove pipe,. If you run the electrical cord down the stove pipe and put the heater in the firebox with  the door off ,or open, there is zero chance of it starting a fire. I can burn all it wants.With an oil stove with too small a firebox to put the heater in, you run the extension cord down the chimney and put a metal container in front of the stove, to put the heater in. Zero chance of   fire spreading anywhere.#ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-475728458 #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919 .ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-475728458ygrps-yiv-799142919ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31926|31886|2015-02-05 17:45:05|brentswain38|Re: Safe electric heater|It can burn all it wants inside my stainless or titanium stove pipe,or my stainless stove,  without setting fire to anything. The breaker is on the dock, not in the boat.$20 a month is a common dock fee for power here.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A word of caution here . This is brilliant , and sometimes works quite well , not always . The stovepipe is tin , and conducts electricity . Salt water also conducts electricity . Lets assume that you progress away from a 40 watt lightbulb which keeps your timbers dry , and begin to experiment , say , with a portable car interior heater . These are high performance heaters , and will , with household current , 115 volts , use between 15 and close to 20 amps of electricity . They work , your vessel's interior will be kept cozy warm , and in the morning , there are no explosive fumes , the air inside the cabin is as warm as you like . Perfect . What you don't see is this :That stovepipe is cut tin , and has sharp edges , which you cleverly avoid when you lower a power extension cord down into your airtight wood heater .Then you plug in the electric car heater , seal everything from the elements , and go on vacation , or go home for the night . That car heater will heat up a lot of cubic footage of airspace , quite quickly , and have heat to spare . It may cost as much as $35.00 per night in electricity - Bargain .When the tin chimney gets warm , and it will , it will melt through that extension cord , and short out 20 amps of current at the breaker . This can cause an electrical fire which can consume your vessel , in 15 minutes .| 31927|31886|2015-02-05 17:50:36|brentswain38|Re: Safe electric heater|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :An argument can be made for putting in a stainless conduit in the building stage,  big enough to run a plug thru ( 2 inch sss tubing) for a fireproof power conduit, to run a heater with. Then you put the heater on metal .I could run one thru my metal cowl vent tube.It can burn all it wants inside my stainless or titanium stove pipe,or my stainless stove,  without setting fire to anything. The breaker is on the dock, not in the boat.$20 a month is a common dock fee for power here.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A word of caution here . This is brilliant , and sometimes works quite well , not always . The stovepipe is tin , and conducts electricity . Salt water also conducts electricity . Lets assume that you progress away from a 40 watt lightbulb which keeps your timbers dry , and begin to experiment , say , with a portable car interior heater . These are high performance heaters , and will , with household current , 115 volts , use between 15 and close to 20 amps of electricity . They work , your vessel's interior will be kept cozy warm , and in the morning , there are no explosive fumes , the air inside the cabin is as warm as you like . Perfect . What you don't see is this :That stovepipe is cut tin , and has sharp edges , which you cleverly avoid when you lower a power extension cord down into your airtight wood heater .Then you plug in the electric car heater , seal everything from the elements , and go on vacation , or go home for the night . That car heater will heat up a lot of cubic footage of airspace , quite quickly , and have heat to spare . It may cost as much as $35.00 per night in electricity - Bargain .When the tin chimney gets warm , and it will , it will melt through that extension cord , and short out 20 amps of current at the breaker . This can cause an electrical fire which can consume your vessel , in 15 minutes .| 31931|31722|2015-02-06 09:40:15|jhess314|Re: SPAM invasion|To send a specific message as a REPLY to the GROUP OWNER, sign in to your yahoo account in your browser and go to the message you want to send (for example, this one).Click on the REPLY button.Optionally, if you want the message you are replying to to be be part of your message, click on SHOW MESSAGE HISTORY in the lower left corner.Click on the DOWN ARROW to the left of the SUBJECT.Click on the DOWN ARROW at the right end of the TO box.Select ORIGAMIBOATS-OWNER@...Sure hope someone will be able to figure out how to Can the Spam---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Alex, please send me PM. I cannot find this option anymore in the posts (to send private message to a member). I would be glad to help to get rid of spam (if you need extra hands to monitor/approve messages).I know, it might be inconvenient and slows down new messages on a board from members, but spam is much more annoying.| 31933|31722|2015-02-06 11:26:57|wild_explorer|Re: SPAM invasion|Thanks! It looks like Yahoo has improved something after last time I was need to send PM. Now it is harder to do (which is good from anti-spam point of view).| 31936|31936|2015-02-06 17:14:11|smallboatvoyaguer|Mono Keel Stuff|Not there yet, but I like to try and stay ahead of the build in my head. So, I was curious: Are there reinforcements added to the mono keel in the same manner as the bilge keels? What is there to support the keel in the single keeler, other than the surrounding hull?-M| 31938|31936|2015-02-06 19:00:07|brentswain38|Re: Mono Keel Stuff|No, further supports are not needed.The aft bulkhead at the back of the ballast spreads the load accoss the hull., as does the tank top. The 3/16th plate has a tensile strength of 11,500 pounds per linear inch. Multiply that by the number of inches of steel in the keels length , both sides ,plus that in the skeg ,and the half inch plate web between the keel and skeg.My first boat, based on a wooden boat , built to Hereschoff and Nevins rules, called for roughly 3.8 square inches total cross section on the keel bolts, to hold a 5400 lb keel on . On the single keel version of my 36, it works out to something in the neighbourhood of 82 square inches of metal holding the keel, on at 60,000 PSI, giving you a tensile strength of millions of pounds tensile strength , holding a 5700 lb keel on..Enough overkill? The width of the keel and its length, along with the immense strength of two curved pieces of metal coming together, the curved keel sides welded to the curved hull, give you imense strength , many, many  times that of any load they will ever encounter. There is ,structurally, no way to make twin keels as strong as a single, wide keel on the centreline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Not there yet, but I like to try and stay ahead of the build in my head. So, I was curious: Are there reinforcements added to the mono keel in the same manner as the bilge keels? What is there to support the keel in the single keeler, other than the surrounding hull?-M| 31939|11996|2015-02-06 19:07:14|brentswain38|Sandblasting inside|One way of making sandblasting inside easier is to leave the keel off, with the hole for it cut out , while sandblasting inside. You should have temporary floors across the keel hole, which you can put plywood on to walk on. That way, the sand falls out, and doesn't pile up as you blast. It also allows better ventilation. While it is much ,much easier to blast and prime the two halves before joining them , this is an option for touch up blasting. Friends have cut the holes for twin keels, and are leaving the keels of for now, for better ventilation, while they do the rest  of the metal work.| 31940|11996|2015-02-06 19:14:51|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting inside|While the low parts of the hull are most prone to rusting in the long run, it is also the part most likely to get walked on a lot, before painting. So make sure you clean it thoroughly, before final painting.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One way of making sandblasting inside easier is to leave the keel off, with the hole for it cut out , while sandblasting inside. You should have temporary floors across the keel hole, which you can put plywood on to walk on. That way, the sand falls out, and doesn't pile up as you blast. It also allows better ventilation. While it is much ,much easier to blast and prime the two halves before joining them , this is an option for touch up blasting. Friends have cut the holes for twin keels, and are leaving the keels of for now, for better ventilation, while they do the rest  of the metal work.| 31941|31936|2015-02-06 19:17:58|brentswain38|Re: Mono Keel Stuff|The reason you need so much more support for twin keels is because they are in the middle of the plate, instead of on the centreline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No, further supports are not needed.The aft bulkhead at the back of the ballast spreads the load accoss the hull., as does the tank top. The 3/16th plate has a tensile strength of 11,500 pounds per linear inch. Multiply that by the number of inches of steel in the keels length , both sides ,plus that in the skeg ,and the half inch plate web between the keel and skeg.My first boat, based on a wooden boat , built to Hereschoff and Nevins rules, called for roughly 3.8 square inches total cross section on the keel bolts, to hold a 5400 lb keel on . On the single keel version of my 36, it works out to something in the neighbourhood of 82 square inches of metal holding the keel, on at 60,000 PSI, giving you a tensile strength of millions of pounds tensile strength , holding a 5700 lb keel on..Enough overkill? The width of the keel and its length, along with the immense strength of two curved pieces of metal coming together, the curved keel sides welded to the curved hull, give you imense strength , many, many  times that of any load they will ever encounter. There is ,structurally, no way to make twin keels as strong as a single, wide keel on the centreline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Not there yet, but I like to try and stay ahead of the build in my head. So, I was curious: Are there reinforcements added to the mono keel in the same manner as the bilge keels? What is there to support the keel in the single keeler, other than the surrounding hull?-M| 31942|31942|2015-02-06 20:45:18|phil_sigmund|Weight of Keels on BS 26|Does anyone have a good estimate of the weight of keels on BS 26(Mine  appear to be lead filled)? And or ballast ratio?Thanks,Phil| 31949|31949|2015-02-07 09:32:01|Alex Bar|Origami method|I wander if the origami method is a Brent's invention or what.Does anybody know about it?Alex| 31951|31936|2015-02-07 11:51:16|Matt Malone|Re: Mono Keel Stuff / Origami and Millions of Pounds| Brent is not wrong in his calculations of tensile strength, and, given the comparison to keel bolts on a wooden or fibreglass hull, sure, an origami keel is more likely to stay with the boat.  The practical, effective strength is the strength a structure might have in its weakest direction, weakest mode of failure or most damaging manner of loading.  Is total tensile loading the most damaging manner of loading?  Not for practical steel structures.  Take a coat hanger as an example.  Heavy coat hanger wire might have a tensile strength of close to 1000 pounds (fence wire might be 1,300), but I can break them with my bare hands by bending them.   In bending, I get tremendous leverage over the thickness, and I am pitting the strength of one side of the thickness against the other.   What also helps is, the steel is really stiff compared to most other materials, so, a little deflection induces huge forces.   Try breaking a wet spaghetti noodle in the same way you can break a coat hanger wire -- it does not work.   Compared to steel, proper fibreglass is more like a wet spaghetti noodle, that is why it works so well in fishing rods.  Steel is its own worst enemy when the manner of loading is most damaging.   Steel properly used in a boat is just really strong, a lot stronger than modern cored fibreglass boats -- one of Brent's common points.  Steel also has really good abrasion resistance, where even old, really good, non-cored, thick fibreglass boats are more vulnerable to abrasion -- another of Brent's common points.   But remember, modern industrial/commercial life boats are made of solid, thick fibreglass, not steel.   There are modes of failure in joined-sheet structures that happen at much less than those millions of pounds, but, Brent says he has never seen them in any of his boats despite their hitting rocks, reefs, and logs.   If a sharp wrinkle were to be raised in a sheet, where this wrinkle intersects a joint, the steel can put tremendous forces on itself, from loading that is far less than millions of pounds.   A breaking wave can produce 80 PSI, but even if we take only 10 PSI, and a 35 foot boat, that might be a total load of a quarter of a million pounds across one side of the hull.   Like the coat-hanger example, the length of the boat gives leverage, the size of the wrinkle would be like the other side of the lever, the smaller it is, the more concentration there can be, the more the stiffness of the steel can be made to work against its strength.  This would have to be a pretty awful situation, breaking wave and a sharp, hard place type situation.  Brent will rightly ask, what other boat would survive this sort of situation ?    I will give him that point.   But the bigger the boat is (there are 60 foot origamis) the more I worry about this, and other ways that the stiffness of steel can be used to work against its ability to resist failure.  So there is no millions of pounds of practical strength, just a lot more than keel bolts.   There is a lot more shear strength at the keel-hull joint to allow the keel to stop the boat, should the keel hit a rock.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:00:07 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mono Keel Stuff   No, further supports are not needed.The aft bulkhead at the back of the ballast spreads the load accoss the hull., as does the tank top. The 3/16th plate has a tensile strength of 11,500 pounds per linear inch. Multiply that by the number of inches of steel in the keels length , both sides ,plus that in the skeg ,and the half inch plate web between the keel and skeg.My first boat, based on a wooden boat , built to Hereschoff and Nevins rules, called for roughly 3.8 square inches total cross section on the keel bolts, to hold a 5400 lb keel on . On the single keel version of my 36, it works out to something in the neighbourhood of 82 square inches of metal holding the keel, on at 60,000 PSI, giving you a tensile strength of millions of pounds tensile strength , holding a 5700 lb keel on..Enough overkill? The width of the keel and its length, along with the immense strength of two curved pieces of metal coming together, the curved keel sides welded to the curved hull, give you imense strength , many, many  times that of any load they will ever encounter. There is ,structurally, no way to make twin keels as strong as a single, wide keel on the centreline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Not there yet, but I like to try and stay ahead of the build in my head. So, I was curious: Are there reinforcements added to the mono keel in the same manner as the bilge keels? What is there to support the keel in the single keeler, other than the surrounding hull?-M | 31952|31949|2015-02-07 13:19:56|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Origami method|Good question. Curious myself as I get asked quite often about the origins of this method.| 31953|31949|2015-02-07 13:47:30|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Origami method|The method was -- as far as I know -- invented by Claes Lundstrom, a Swede, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. In the US, it was tried with some success by Gary Curtis.  In Canada it was Brent Swain.  Brent has done the most of them all to develop it and make the method popular.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Good question. Curious myself as I get asked quite often about the origins of this method. | 31955|31955|2015-02-07 14:42:07|phil_sigmund|Early Brent Swain's|Approximately when was Brent's first Origami built? Was it in Nanaimo?| 31958|31949|2015-02-07 16:11:25|opuspaul|Re: Origami method|I have always considered stitch and glue and tortured plywood boats origami method.   There were many dinghies made using these kind of methods using ply in the 60's and 70's.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stitch_and_glue http://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/Construction-Methods/Tortured-Plywood-Hulls.htmlhttp://www.instructables.com/id/Tornado-Catamaran-Building-Instructions--79/    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The method was -- as far as I know -- invented by Claes Lundstrom, a Swede, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. In the US, it was tried with some success by Gary Curtis.  In Canada it was Brent Swain.  Brent has done the most of them all to develop it and make the method popular.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Good question. Curious myself as I get asked quite often about the origins of this method.| 31959|31955|2015-02-07 16:16:30|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Early Brent Swain's|Old thread:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/conversations/topics/5672| 31960|31949|2015-02-07 16:23:15|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Origami method|Old thread:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/conversations/topics/5672| 31961|31949|2015-02-07 16:26:43|opuspaul|Re: Origami method|Thinking a bit further, the first real uses of plywood using cut patterns and bending to form were probably used in World War II in building aircraft and small patrol boats.  You can argue about it but I think it really depends on how you define Origami.  I consider it cutting to a pattern and bending and joining.  Taken to it's limit you can get it down to one sheet with the fewest seams.So it may not be a new method but Brent has been brilliant and ground breaking in always looking for an easier way and simplifying all the construction steps with metal boats.   I don't think anybody else comes close.   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have always considered stitch and glue and tortured plywood boats origami method.   There were many dinghies made using these kind of methods using ply in the 60's and 70's.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stitch_and_glue http://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/Construction-Methods/Tortured-Plywood-Hulls.htmlhttp://www.instructables.com/id/Tornado-Catamaran-Building-Instructions--79/    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The method was -- as far as I know -- invented by Claes Lundstrom, a Swede, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. In the US, it was tried with some success by Gary Curtis.  In Canada it was Brent Swain.  Brent has done the most of them all to develop it and make the method popular.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Good question. Curious myself as I get asked quite often about the origins of this method.| 31962|31949|2015-02-07 17:23:41|brentswain38|Re: Origami method|By the time Lundstrom started building and designing origamiboats, I had built around a dozen of them. Gary Curtis, having signed a licensing agreement with him, came to visit, and I told him that  mirror class dinghies had been built using the method since the 50s. Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminium Yachts in Parksville BC ,told him that Highline Aluminium in Richmond BC had built hundreds in the late 60's . Gary told me later that Lundstrom's patent was useless, and a scam.I built my first origami boat, a 26 ft twin keeler , in Nanaimo in January 1980. It took 21 days to do most of the steel work ( hull, decks, cabin,   cockpit, keels, rudder skeg, handrails ,lifelines, stern tube, engine mounts,hatches, cleats mooring bitts, bow roller,mast step,  etc .) We had an inside building  site, with lots of power and light.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The method was -- as far as I know -- invented by Claes Lundstrom, a Swede, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. In the US, it was tried with some success by Gary Curtis.  In Canada it was Brent Swain.  Brent has done the most of them all to develop it and make the method popular.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Good question. Curious myself as I get asked quite often about the origins of this method.| 31963|31949|2015-02-07 17:34:18|brentswain38|Re: Origami method|Origami has been standard sheet metal working practice,  for as long as sheet metal has been around.Sadly, when they started building boats out of metal, they asked the wooden boat builders instead of sheet metal workers, and ended up with building methods which take little advantage of the characteristics of the material.In the early 80's I tried to sell an article on origami metal boat building to Pacific Yachting ( which later became the basis for my book). Both the editor, Paul Burkhart, and his assistant were very enthusiastic, bu this  "Technical " editor Sven Donaldson was anything  but. In fact he was extremely sarcastic and condescending with me. His hand shake was like grabbing a plastic bag of shit, but over the phone he was much more confident and condescending. He vetoed the article.In the late 90s, Ken Splett , who has build many of my boats, went to work for Gunter Richler of Fastwater Marine and built them the first of my 40 footers .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wander if the origami method is a Brent's invention or what.Does anybody know about it?Alex| 31964|31949|2015-02-07 17:45:43|brentswain38|Re: Origami method|In 2000, when I got back from Tonga, Ken Splett handed me a Pacific Yachting ,which had an article in which Richler had claimed to have invented origami boat building. Cruising World had published a similar article.Both were written by, guess who, Svend Donaldson!   I wrote to them ,explaining that Richler had "Invented' the method, by buying my book, and by Ken and I explaining the process to him. Both  publications published my letter. Since then, Donaldson has not sold a single article to Cruising World, to my knowledge.Pathetic Yachting, obviously having much lower standards , still publish his stuff.I have since received emails from those who have invested in Richler's scam, asking his whereabouts .  Seems he ran off with  their "investment" money. I wonder how liable Donaldson is.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Origami has been standard sheet metal working practice,  for as long as sheet metal has been around.Sadly, when they started building boats out of metal, they asked the wooden boat builders instead of sheet metal workers, and ended up with building methods which take little advantage of the characteristics of the material.In the early 80's I tried to sell an article on origami metal boat building to Pacific Yachting ( which later became the basis for my book). Both the editor, Paul Burkhart, and his assistant were very enthusiastic, bu this  "Technical " editor Sven Donaldson was anything  but. In fact he was extremely sarcastic and condescending with me. His hand shake was like grabbing a plastic bag of shit, but over the phone he was much more confident and condescending. He vetoed the article.In the late 90s, Ken Splett , who has build many of my boats, went to work for Gunter Richler of Fastwater Marine and built them the first of my 40 footers .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wander if the origami method is a Brent's invention or what.Does anybody know about it?Alex| 31965|31936|2015-02-07 18:08:47|brentswain38|Re: Mono Keel Stuff / Origami and Millions of Pounds|A big factor in keel attachment is the length and width of the keel. Short narrow attachment, on a high aspect keel, requires a lot more reinforcing than a wide and long attachment. For my boats,  the attachment of the keel to  the hull is often longer and wider than most. For the 31 single keeler , it is roughly 20 feet per side, for a total of 40 feet of 3/16th plate , at 11,250 pounds per inch, tensile strength.That is 480 inches of 3/16th plate, for a total of 5,400,000 tensile strength.However you calculate it, it is one hell of an overkill, compared to 3.8 sq  inches cross section of keel bolts.You wont find any stock boat which has anywhere near that kind of safety factor , certainly not any twin keelers. It is a moot point, by an extremely  wide margin.Life boats are fibreglass because they cant expect a lick of maintenance to be done  on them , and they are made for a one time use. They simply wont have the daily banging around a full time cruiser will give a boat.  Steel can stretch 1.4 times its original length before breaking. Fiberglass ,very little .Put a steel can on the freeway, and you can squash it flat without making any holes in it. Fibreglass would shatter.What would hole a plastic boat would only dent  a steel one,leaving it watertight, and capable of sailing anywhere.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Brent is not wrong in his calculations of tensile strength, and, given the comparison to keel bolts on a wooden or fibreglass hull, sure, an origami keel is more likely to stay with the boat.  The practical, effective strength is the strength a structure might have in its weakest direction, weakest mode of failure or most damaging manner of loading.  Is total tensile loading the most damaging manner of loading?  Not for practical steel structures.  Take a coat hanger as an example.  Heavy coat hanger wire might have a tensile strength of close to 1000 pounds (fence wire might be 1,300), but I can break them with my bare hands by bending them.   In bending, I get tremendous leverage over the thickness, and I am pitting the strength of one side of the thickness against the other.   What also helps is, the steel is really stiff compared to most other materials, so, a little deflection induces huge forces.   Try breaking a wet spaghetti noodle in the same way you can break a coat hanger wire -- it does not work.   Compared to steel, proper fibreglass is more like a wet spaghetti noodle, that is why it works so well in fishing rods.  Steel is its own worst enemy when the manner of loading is most damaging.   Steel properly used in a boat is just really strong, a lot stronger than modern cored fibreglass boats -- one of Brent's common points.  Steel also has really good abrasion resistance, where even old, really good, non-cored, thick fibreglass boats are more vulnerable to abrasion -- another of Brent's common points.   But remember, modern industrial/commercial life boats are made of solid, thick fibreglass, not steel.   There are modes of failure in joined-sheet structures that happen at much less than those millions of pounds, but, Brent says he has never seen them in any of his boats despite their hitting rocks, reefs, and logs.   If a sharp wrinkle were to be raised in a sheet, where this wrinkle intersects a joint, the steel can put tremendous forces on itself, from loading that is far less than millions of pounds.   A breaking wave can produce 80 PSI, but even if we take only 10 PSI, and a 35 foot boat, that might be a total load of a quarter of a million pounds across one side of the hull.   Like the coat-hanger example, the length of the boat gives leverage, the size of the wrinkle would be like the other side of the lever, the smaller it is, the more concentration there can be, the more the stiffness of the steel can be made to work against its strength.  This would have to be a pretty awful situation, breaking wave and a sharp, hard place type situation.  Brent will rightly ask, what other boat would survive this sort of situation ?    I will give him that point.   But the bigger the boat is (there are 60 foot origamis) the more I worry about this, and other ways that the stiffness of steel can be used to work against its ability to resist failure.  So there is no millions of pounds of practical strength, just a lot more than keel bolts.   There is a lot more shear strength at the keel-hull joint to allow the keel to stop the boat, should the keel hit a rock.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:00:07 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mono Keel Stuff  No, further supports are not needed.The aft bulkhead at the back of the ballast spreads the load accoss the hull., as does the tank top. The 3/16th plate has a tensile strength of 11,500 pounds per linear inch. Multiply that by the number of inches of steel in the keels length , both sides ,plus that in the skeg ,and the half inch plate web between the keel and skeg.My first boat, based on a wooden boat , built to Hereschoff and Nevins rules, called for roughly 3.8 square inches total cross section on the keel bolts, to hold a 5400 lb keel on . On the single keel version of my 36, it works out to something in the neighbourhood of 82 square inches of metal holding the keel, on at 60,000 PSI, giving you a tensile strength of millions of pounds tensile strength , holding a 5700 lb keel on..Enough overkill? The width of the keel and its length, along with the immense strength of two curved pieces of metal coming together, the curved keel sides welded to the curved hull, give you imense strength , many, many  times that of any load they will ever encounter. There is ,structurally, no way to make twin keels as strong as a single, wide keel on the centreline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Not there yet, but I like to try and stay ahead of the build in my head. So, I was curious: Are there reinforcements added to the mono keel in the same manner as the bilge keels? What is there to support the keel in the single keeler, other than the surrounding hull?-M#ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxad p { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxhd { font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactivity { background-color:#e0ecee;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactivity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactivity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactivity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactivity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxactivity span .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxunderline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach label { display:block;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass blockquote { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxbold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxbold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxlast p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxlast p span { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass dd.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxlast p span.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxyshortcuts { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxfile-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxfile-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxphoto-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxphoto-title a:hover { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass div#ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxyshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxgreen { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxMsoNormal { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxphotos div { width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxphotos div div { border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxphotos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxreco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxreco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxreplbq { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-actbar div a:first-child { padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass input, #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxlogo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxattach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxreco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-reco { padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxov ul { padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1144043068 #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944 .ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1144043068ygrps-yiv-848993944ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31966|31949|2015-02-07 18:54:22|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Origami method|IVery interesting. Thanks for the insight, Brent.  Guess people should update the history a bit.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:23 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   By the time Lundstrom started building and designing origamiboats, I had built around a dozen of them. Gary Curtis, having signed a licensing agreement with him, came to visit, and I told him that  mirror class dinghies had been built using the method since the 50s. Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminium Yachts in Parksville BC ,told him that Highline Aluminium in Richmond BC had built hundreds in the late 60's . Gary told me later that Lundstrom's patent was useless, and a scam.I built my first origami boat, a 26 ft twin keeler , in Nanaimo in January 1980. It took 21 days to do most of the steel work ( hull, decks, cabin,   cockpit, keels, rudder skeg, handrails ,lifelines, stern tube, engine mounts,hatches, cleats mooring bitts, bow roller,mast step,  etc .) We had an inside building  site, with lots of power and light.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The method was -- as far as I know -- invented by Claes Lundstrom, a Swede, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. In the US, it was tried with some success by Gary Curtis.  In Canada it was Brent Swain.  Brent has done the most of them all to develop it and make the method popular.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Good question. Curious myself as I get asked quite often about the origins of this method. | 31970|31949|2015-02-08 02:33:32|Alex Bar|Re: Origami method|So, it seem's that the creator of the origami method is unknown since more than half century...Alex2015-02-07 23:34 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Origami has been standard sheet metal working practice,  for as long as sheet metal has been around.Sadly, when they started building boats out of metal, they asked the wooden boat builders instead of sheet metal workers, and ended up with building methods which take little advantage of the characteristics of the material.In the early 80's I tried to sell an article on origami metal boat building to Pacific Yachting ( which later became the basis for my book). Both the editor, Paul Burkhart, and his assistant were very enthusiastic, bu this  "Technical " editor Sven Donaldson was anything  but. In fact he was extremely sarcastic and condescending with me. His hand shake was like grabbing a plastic bag of shit, but over the phone he was much more confident and condescending. He vetoed the article.In the late 90s, Ken Splett , who has build many of my boats, went to work for Gunter Richler of Fastwater Marine and built them the first of my 40 footers .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wander if the origami method is a Brent's invention or what.Does anybody know about it?Alex | 31971|31949|2015-02-08 03:23:41|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Origami method|Well, the idea is too obvious to have occurred to just one person.  It is less important who thought of it first.  The important thing is who did something with it that mattered.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   So, it seem's that the creator of the origami method is unknown since more than half century...Alex2015-02-07 23:34 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Origami has been standard sheet metal working practice,  for as long as sheet metal has been around.Sadly, when they started building boats out of metal, they asked the wooden boat builders instead of sheet metal workers, and ended up with building methods which take little advantage of the characteristics of the material.In the early 80's I tried to sell an article on origami metal boat building to Pacific Yachting ( which later became the basis for my book). Both the editor, Paul Burkhart, and his assistant were very enthusiastic, bu this  "Technical " editor Sven Donaldson was anything  but. In fact he was extremely sarcastic and condescending with me. His hand shake was like grabbing a plastic bag of shit, but over the phone he was much more confident and condescending. He vetoed the article.In the late 90s, Ken Splett , who has build many of my boats, went to work for Gunter Richler of Fastwater Marine and built them the first of my 40 footers .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wander if the origami method is a Brent's invention or what.Does anybody know about it?Alex | 31974|31949|2015-02-08 08:30:09|James Pronk|Re: Origami method|I think all you need to do is look at this group. Who is selling plans? Who's written a book on Origami boat building? Who has built and helped build dozens of boats? Who keeps on coming up with new ideas on improving the building proses? And the big one for me is who is handing out free advice for not only building an origami boat, but ways to set up your boat and ways to save money to cruise?I don't care who did it first, who is doing it best is what I care about.James| 31975|31949|2015-02-08 08:34:49|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Origami method|I can only say 'amen' to that, James.Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:30 PM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I think all you need to do is look at this group. Who is selling plans? Who's written a book on Origami boat building? Who has built and helped build dozens of boats? Who keeps on coming up with new ideas on improving the building proses? And the big one for me is who is handing out free advice for not only building an origami boat, but ways to set up your boat and ways to save money to cruise?I don't care who did it first, who is doing it best is what I care about.James | 31978|31949|2015-02-08 13:43:03|wild_explorer|Re: Origami method|Did you mean several centuries old??? Look at kirigami (not origami). It is more accurate term for this technique. Goggle some images.Brent adopted it for small boat building. Seems very logical and practical to me...Do you remember paper modeling magazines from 50-70s with boats and planes models? It used cut-out patterns to build a model.Brent made a very good point that this technique (cut and bend) was used in metal sheet working from the beginning. Why not to use the same idea? Boat/ship hull is a "thin shell". Bigger the ship - more thin is the shell compare to displacement (regardless of material). "Folding" technique is not practical for building the ship, but OK for small boat.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So, it seem's that the creator of the origami method is unknown since more than half century...Alex| 31984|31984|2015-02-09 00:56:44|phil_sigmund|aluminum 36|Has anyone built an origami  36ft aluminum hull?Approximate cost (just hull)?| 31986|31984|2015-02-09 04:16:55|Hannu Venermo|Re: aluminum 36|Some alu hulls have been made, this was discussed about 1-1.5 years ago. Alu costs about 3x cost of steel, for the mass. Its (much) harder and more expensive to weld. You need a very good industrial welder (4-5k$), and someone needs to teach you how (1 week ?), or hire a pro (2 weeks, 2000$ ?). A bad structural weld may not show up visually, and recommended practice is x-ray for all critical welds. Alu is common in europe, does not need painting at all, and lasts forever. Easily worked with hand power tools (carbide). Total costs are about 3x steel hulls. I would guesstimate/expect about 50-80k for a 36 foot hull, welded. (One off, boatyard site with power/lifting/lights, done by someone with alu experience, taking 2 months.) The above is what I would expect to pay, if I was not doing it fysically myself, and wanted to get one done. Note that 30k easily is changed up or down, if experience with the method/tools/site/production. On 09/02/2015 06:56, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Has anyone built an origami 36ft aluminum hull?Approximate cost (just > hull)? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31988|31984|2015-02-09 08:00:21|garyhlucas|Re: aluminum 36| I wish people wouldn’t keep saying aluminum is much harder to weld, it isn’t.  You do need a good industrial grade USED welder.  You will be using MIG not stick welding.  Getting the machine setup to run properly, spray arc not short arc is VERY important.  After that it is quite easy.  Mig is easier than stick or tig welding even on steel.  You do need to be indoors because shielding gas is used and wind blows it away.  Aluminum is light in weight, the parts are easier to handle.  Because it is light in weight the molten metal is lighter too, so welding vertical and overhead is not as difficult.  When you are done you are done, no chipping of welds, no sandblasting, no painting. Aluminum costs a lot more per pound, but because it is 1/3 the weight of steel the cost comparison isn’t as bad as it might seem for materials.  Welders for aluminum are Constant Voltage, not Constant Current.  You use a spool gun not a push feeder.    I bought a Miller spool gun for use with a gasoline powered Constant Current stick welder.  The dealer said it wouldn’t work well.  Inside the box was a little switch to go from CV to CC. When you flipped that switch the power for the motor driving the aluminum wire came from the welding voltage and the wire speed followed that.  We used it for welding up and repairing aluminum benches in a greenhouse for more than ten years.   I’ve written here before on how to properly set up an aluminum mig welder.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 4:16 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminum 36     Some alu hulls have been made, this was discussed about 1-1.5 years ago.Alu costs about 3x cost of steel, for the mass.Its (much) harder and more expensive to weld.You need a very good industrial welder (4-5k$), and someone needs to teach you how (1 week ?), or hire a pro (2 weeks, 2000$ ?).A bad structural weld may not show up visually, and recommended practice is x-ray for all critical welds.Alu is common in europe, does not need painting at all, and lasts forever.Easily worked with hand power tools (carbide).Total costs are about 3x steel hulls.I would guesstimate/expect about 50-80k for a 36 foot hull, welded.(One off, boatyard site with power/lifting/lights, done by someone with alu experience, taking 2 months.)The above is what I would expect to pay, if I was not doing it fysically myself, and wanted to get one done.Note that 30k easily is changed up or down, if experience with the method/tools/site/production.On 09/02/2015 06:56, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Has anyone built an origami 36ft aluminum hull?Approximate cost (just > hull)? -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 31990|31984|2015-02-09 08:45:29|Hannu Venermo|Re: aluminum 36|Mig is very fast on steel, and relatively easy to pick up, if and only IF; -you have an excellent welder, -the parameters are perfect for that grade and materials and those conditions, -you have the right grade of wire for the material. I used a big industrial mig welder last summer, on steel. After 2-3 passes I was making test-qualification-pass welds in 15 mm thick mild steel. It was about 5 times faster to use a big mig than stick for making steel structures. I might buy a large one like that (300+ amps, water cooled). BUT.. Setting up a new mig welder, for someones without the right experience, is a completely different situation. I dont think I could not it well and efficiently, and not at all for alu. In steel, you can see when the passes are not right. In alu, you cannot. For that reason it is mandatory to do x-rays on alu welds - unlike on steel welding. I have experience with industrial, professional boat manufacturers. One has made over 1.000 boats over here in spain, and one makes all the aluminium coast guard and pilot boats in finland. Both agreed and maintained, that alu is hard and tricky, when the weld must be right, ie structural welds in boats. In china, welds must be xrayd by law in the boatbuilding industry. Etc.. I agree Mig is fast and easy on steel after trying a big industrial welder ! Thats why I may, likely will, buy one for myself. 1. I have the 3-5k in cash, 2. and I have 380 3-phase, needed for big welders. 3. I also have lots of experience making CNC machine parts with stick and small mig welders. For me, the much faster mig will make my production faster and more enjoyable (no cleaning). For the majority of people, especially on this list, they may not have all conditions 1,2,3 and thus its not obvious that Mig is better, for them. Also, most approach boatbuilding with a less than complete plan at the outset. On 09/02/2015 13:56, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Mig is easier than stick or tig welding even on steel. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31996|31984|2015-02-09 15:41:07|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|I once built a 31 in a sheet metal shop for the owner.We started with the mig, but the short lead and the need to move it around constantly was a pain in the ass, costing us a lot of time.So we parked an engine driven stick welder outside the door and ran long leads, back into  the shop. That made tacking the shell together a lot easier, and quicker. Then he used the wire feed welder , with his  highly experienced welder, for the final welding .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mig is very fast on steel, and relatively easy to pick up, if and only IF; -you have an excellent welder, -the parameters are perfect for that grade and materials and those conditions, -you have the right grade of wire for the material. I used a big industrial mig welder last summer, on steel. After 2-3 passes I was making test-qualification-pass welds in 15 mm thick mild steel. It was about 5 times faster to use a big mig than stick for making steel structures. I might buy a large one like that (300+ amps, water cooled). BUT.. Setting up a new mig welder, for someones without the right experience, is a completely different situation. I dont think I could not it well and efficiently, and not at all for alu. In steel, you can see when the passes are not right. In alu, you cannot. For that reason it is mandatory to do x-rays on alu welds - unlike on steel welding. I have experience with industrial, professional boat manufacturers. One has made over 1.000 boats over here in spain, and one makes all the aluminium coast guard and pilot boats in finland. Both agreed and maintained, that alu is hard and tricky, when the weld must be right, ie structural welds in boats. In china, welds must be xrayd by law in the boatbuilding industry. Etc.. I agree Mig is fast and easy on steel after trying a big industrial welder ! Thats why I may, likely will, buy one for myself. 1. I have the 3-5k in cash, 2. and I have 380 3-phase, needed for big welders. 3. I also have lots of experience making CNC machine parts with stick and small mig welders. For me, the much faster mig will make my production faster and more enjoyable (no cleaning). For the majority of people, especially on this list, they may not have all conditions 1,2,3 and thus its not obvious that Mig is better, for them. Also, most approach boatbuilding with a less than complete plan at the outset. On 09/02/2015 13:56, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Mig is easier than stick or tig welding even on steel. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 31997|31984|2015-02-09 15:45:41|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|Ercan built one in Nanaimo many years ago.It was just launched recently, by its latest owner. When it was roughly 6K for the steel for the 36 , aluminium, laying on the ground cost $20K. Welding aluminium was far more expensive than steel. Outside, one can only weld on flat calm ,super dry days.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has anyone built an origami  36ft aluminum hull?Approximate cost (just hull)?| 31998|31998|2015-02-09 15:46:59|brentswain38|Spamers|Low Cost Voyaging ( yahoo groups ) had a recent post on the spammers, which some may find interesting.| 31999|31949|2015-02-09 15:57:42|brentswain38|Re: Origami method|For boats too big for framelessness ,one can still save a lot of time and expense,  by using origami methods to build the hull, then  adding stiffeners later. With the shape already thus established ,precision accuracy of internal framing is no longer  relevant, which saves a huge amount of time .In the early 70s, I worked as a brake operator for Canron, building barges for northern oil exploration. We built barge panels ,which were loaded on a train and shipped to the headwaters of Mackenzie River, where the panels were put together, and thus made  into barges, origami style.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Did you mean several centuries old??? Look at kirigami (not origami). It is more accurate term for this technique. Goggle some images.Brent adopted it for small boat building. Seems very logical and practical to me...Do you remember paper modeling magazines from 50-70s with boats and planes models? It used cut-out patterns to build a model.Brent made a very good point that this technique (cut and bend) was used in metal sheet working from the beginning. Why not to use the same idea? Boat/ship hull is a "thin shell". Bigger the ship - more thin is the shell compare to displacement (regardless of material). "Folding" technique is not practical for building the ship, but OK for small boat.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So, it seem's that the creator of the origami method is unknown since more than half century...Alex| 32000|31998|2015-02-09 16:04:08|Brian Stannard|Re: Spamers|I belong to multiple groups and am getting the same spam from 3 of them, often a minute apart. On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 12:46 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Low Cost Voyaging ( yahoo groups ) had a recent post on the spammers, which some may find interesting. -- CheersBrian |