32001|32001|2015-02-09 18:43:38|smallboatvoyaguer|Cabin Side Templates| I am now making templates off of the plans for the forward cabin sides and aft cabin sides. A few questions. This is the 31 footer. This is as simple as I could make this question. First, it looks as though the camber on the forward cabin side is on the top edge of the plate and the bottom edge as well. Can somebody verify if I am seeing that correct?  This piece is only 8 feet long and therefor only comes to about the middle of the trunk cabin...?  When the forward cabin side and the aft cabin side lengths are combined, it gives me 16', which appears to be about a foot shy of the length from the most forward point of the trunk cabin to the most aft point of the pilot house...? On the aft cabin sides, it looks like the bottom edge is straight, and the top edge rises from 10 3/4" forward to 12 1/4" aft.  I am guessing this gives me the  In some builds I see people are making the pilot house sides from one piece of plate, yet making this "aft cabin side" would indicate to me that it is built of two different pieces, a lower one (the aft cabin side) and an upper one. Thanks,  -Marlin| 32010|32001|2015-02-10 14:45:26|brentswain38|Re: Cabin Side Templates|Yes, you are reading it right.On the 36  I use the left over pieces cut from  the foredeck plate for the wheelhouse sides. Cant remember exactly how it goes for the 31 , I have built so few of them. Thus the extra length of the cabinside plates are cut off, at the front end of the wheelhouse sides---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I am now making templates off of the plans for the forward cabin sides and aft cabin sides. A few questions. This is the 31 footer. This is as simple as I could make this question. First, it looks as though the camber on the forward cabin side is on the top edge of the plate and the bottom edge as well. Can somebody verify if I am seeing that correct?  This piece is only 8 feet long and therefor only comes to about the middle of the trunk cabin...?  When the forward cabin side and the aft cabin side lengths are combined, it gives me 16', which appears to be about a foot shy of the length from the most forward point of the trunk cabin to the most aft point of the pilot house...? On the aft cabin sides, it looks like the bottom edge is straight, and the top edge rises from 10 3/4" forward to 12 1/4" aft.  I am guessing this gives me the  In some builds I see people are making the pilot house sides from one piece of plate, yet making this "aft cabin side" would indicate to me that it is built of two different pieces, a lower one (the aft cabin side) and an upper one. Thanks,  -Marlin| 32018|32018|2015-02-11 08:24:27|smallboatvoyaguer|Rudder Dimensions 31| Yo. Was the rudder supposed to be in the plans? I made a template already, going off of the rudder that's in the book, which appears to be for the 31 footer. Seemed to work just fine, but I was just curious. I know some of these questions seem trite, but they are questions which I am sure someone else will ask themselves in the future, and it's good they get documented. Thanks | 32021|32018|2015-02-11 16:02:49|brentswain38|Re: Rudder Dimensions 31|The one in the book works fine. You can scale it off the one in the plans.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Yo. Was the rudder supposed to be in the plans? I made a template already, going off of the rudder that's in the book, which appears to be for the 31 footer. Seemed to work just fine, but I was just curious. I know some of these questions seem trite, but they are questions which I am sure someone else will ask themselves in the future, and it's good they get documented. Thanks | 32022|32022|2015-02-11 16:05:35|phil_sigmund|BRENT SWAIN 26 STABILITY CALC.|I've just calculated the angle of vanishing stability for my BS 26 and came up with 127 degrees. I think not  a bad number. With engine batteries etc. the measured weight of my boat was 8300lbs. I used 1800 lbs for the twin keels. Does this agree with calculations others have done? With the little "wheel house" (see pictures)on my boat the buoyancy would be levered up after about 90 degrees of tilt probably increasing this number. You think?| 32023|32022|2015-02-11 16:22:24|brentswain38|Re: BRENT SWAIN 26 STABILITY CALC.|Displacement figure seems a bit high.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I've just calculated the angle of vanishing stability for my BS 26 and came up with 127 degrees. I think not  a bad number. With engine batteries etc. the measured weight of my boat was 8300lbs. I used 1800 lbs for the twin keels. Does this agree with calculations others have done? With the little "wheel house" (see pictures)on my boat the buoyancy would be levered up after about 90 degrees of tilt probably increasing this number. You think?| 32024|32022|2015-02-11 16:31:21|brentswain38|Re: BRENT SWAIN 26 STABILITY CALC.|Seems a bit low. Did you take into account the buoyancy of the cabin and wheelhouse?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I've just calculated the angle of vanishing stability for my BS 26 and came up with 127 degrees. I think not  a bad number. With engine batteries etc. the measured weight of my boat was 8300lbs. I used 1800 lbs for the twin keels. Does this agree with calculations others have done? With the little "wheel house" (see pictures)on my boat the buoyancy would be levered up after about 90 degrees of tilt probably increasing this number. You think?| 32026|32026|2015-02-11 16:44:59|inter4905|pilothouse size and stability|Hi Brent,I was looking at some pictures of MOM and notice that it has a bigger pilothouse than on most Swain's 36ft,Does it affect the boat stability by much? Thanks, Martin| 32027|32026|2015-02-11 17:46:42|Matt Malone|Re: pilothouse size and stability| By the angle of vanishing stability, not so much considering the boat will be getting tossed around a lot when inverted.  By restoring moment at a given angle, yes.   Though the graphs may not look that different, the recovery from a given angle would be faster.  Putting a few extra cubic meters of air underwater has a huge influence on the righting moment at a given angle.   Big pilot houses pull harder on your anchor in a blow.  Breaking water breaks harder.   Stability in the upright position becomes more tender as you have more mass higher.   That and an arch at the back with solar panels and radar and ...and. and it can make a real difference.   Its a trade off.   If you want to really change your angle of vanishing stability, then a sealed mast (so it does not flood) and a small inflatable near the top will have far greater impact on vanishing stability.   A sealed mast is not a big deal, it just means no running lines on the inside, silicon where wires come out.   An inflatable is a potential liability.  You need minimum 30 psi compressed air to hold it inflated, and you will want to deflate and flatten it whenever the boat is upright.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:44:58 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse size and stability   Hi Brent,I was looking at some pictures of MOM and notice that it has a bigger pilothouse than on most Swain's 36ft,Does it affect the boat stability by much? Thanks, Martin | 32028|32022|2015-02-11 17:52:11|phil_sigmund|Re: BRENT SWAIN 26 STABILITY CALC.|No I didn't account for the cabin-wheelhouse. They would definitely increase the angle by quite a bit. I'm hoping to do some "non-destructive" testing this summer. I'm a little puzzled by the high weight 8300lbs vs 6700 lbs in your design. Did early versions have  3/16" in hull?| 32029|32026|2015-02-11 17:53:19|mountain man|Re: pilothouse size and stability| Matt,Some boats with bigger pilothouse do have much more lead ballast (near 10,000lbs ) for a 37ft,this is the case with the Fisher 37, I know this is not Brent's kind of boat but I am just mentioning.Bigger pilothouse are appealing, but  like you said; it is a trade off...MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:46:41 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse size and stability   By the angle of vanishing stability, not so much considering the boat will be getting tossed around a lot when inverted.  By restoring moment at a given angle, yes.   Though the graphs may not look that different, the recovery from a given angle would be faster.  Putting a few extra cubic meters of air underwater has a huge influence on the righting moment at a given angle.   Big pilot houses pull harder on your anchor in a blow.  Breaking water breaks harder.   Stability in the upright position becomes more tender as you have more mass higher.   That and an arch at the back with solar panels and radar and ...and. and it can make a real difference.   Its a trade off.   If you want to really change your angle of vanishing stability, then a sealed mast (so it does not flood) and a small inflatable near the top will have far greater impact on vanishing stability.   A sealed mast is not a big deal, it just means no running lines on the inside, silicon where wires come out.   An inflatable is a potential liability.  You need minimum 30 psi compressed air to hold it inflated, and you will want to deflate and flatten it whenever the boat is upright.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:44:58 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse size and stability   Hi Brent,I was looking at some pictures of MOM and notice that it has a bigger pilothouse than on most Swain's 36ft,Does it affect the boat stability by much? Thanks, Martin | 32031|32022|2015-02-11 18:54:19|phil_sigmund|Re: BRENT SWAIN 26 STABILITY CALC.|oops i meant 3/32"| 32033|32033|2015-02-11 22:47:44|phil_sigmund|Epoxy and copper free anti-fouling|I'm thinking of trying epoxy "Interseal 670HS" on the bottom of my BS26 when I next pull her out. Then I'd like to get a copper-tin free antifouling to go on top of that. Any experience with these paints on steel  out there?| 32037|32037|2015-02-12 04:34:45|Alex Bar|Stringers way of bending|Is it possible to weld all the stringhers on the flat sheet before bending? How many stringhers do you have on a 31/36 feet? If I understand they shuold be two on the side and three on the bottom. Do they bend easly all togheter once welded on place?ThanksAlex| 32044|32037|2015-02-12 19:37:37|brentswain38|Re: Stringers way of bending|Yes, by all means weld your stringers on while the plate is flat on the ground. They bend easily. Make sure there are no serious humps and  hollows in it, or they will become permanent. For the single keeler,  I put three stringers on each of the bottom halves, and two on the top sides. For the twin keeler, I just put th outside stringer on ,nearest the chine. That way ,they dont interfere with installing the keels. I put the rest on after the keels are in.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Is it possible to weld all the stringhers on the flat sheet before bending? How many stringhers do you have on a 31/36 feet? If I understand they shuold be two on the side and three on the bottom. Do they bend easly all togheter once welded on place?ThanksAlex| 32045|32026|2015-02-12 19:42:49|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse size and stability|The buoyancy in my pilothouse , in the 180 degrees inverted position, is the equivalent of adding 3,000 lbs of ballast, in terms of its effect on righting moment.Its effect on stability when the boat is  upright, is minor.  Any calculations which dont take into account the buoyancy of deck structures, are meaningless.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-313324098 #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057 .ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-313324098 #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057 .ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Matt,Some boats with bigger pilothouse do have much more lead ballast (near 10,000lbs ) for a 37ft,this is the case with the Fisher 37, I know this is not Brent's kind of boat but I am just mentioning.Bigger pilothouse are appealing, but  like you said; it is a trade off...MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:46:41 -0500Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse size and stability By the angle of vanishing stability, not so much considering the boat will be getting tossed around a lot when inverted.  By restoring moment at a given angle, yes.   Though the graphs may not look that different, the recovery from a given angle would be faster.  Putting a few extra cubic meters of air underwater has a huge influence on the righting moment at a given angle.   Big pilot houses pull harder on your anchor in a blow.  Breaking water breaks harder.   Stability in the upright position becomes more tender as you have more mass higher.   That and an arch at the back with solar panels and radar and ...and. and it can make a real difference.   Its a trade off.   If you want to really change your angle of vanishing stability, then a sealed mast (so it does not flood) and a small inflatable near the top will have far greater impact on vanishing stability.   A sealed mast is not a big deal, it just means no running lines on the inside, silicon where wires come out.   An inflatable is a potential liability.  You need minimum 30 psi compressed air to hold it inflated, and you will want to deflate and flatten it whenever the boat is upright.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:44:58 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse size and stability  Hi Brent,I was looking at some pictures of MOM and notice that it has a bigger pilothouse than on most Swain's 36ft,Does it affect the boat stability by much? Thanks, Martin#ygrps-yiv-313324098 #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057 .ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-313324098 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#ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057 .ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-313324098 #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057 .ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-313324098ygrps-yiv-52304057ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32047|31984|2015-02-13 00:11:42|phil_sigmund|Re: aluminum 36|Thanks Hannu,I t seems like a finished  aluminum hull BS  would be as expensive as a Crealock 37. Perhaps there is some way to lower costs.Phil| 32049|32037|2015-02-13 02:08:47|Alex Bar|Re: Stringers way of bending|Thanks. I've noticed that in the Kim's series of photos of building a 26' the two bottom stringers have been welded on the flat sheet already bended. I mean they are prebended following the shape of the cuts in the sheet. Maybe they take a better shape once the entire half shell is curved. Is that necessary?Alex2015-02-13 1:37 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Yes, by all means weld your stringers on while the plate is flat on the ground. They bend easily. Make sure there are no serious humps and  hollows in it, or they will become permanent. For the single keeler,  I put three stringers on each of the bottom halves, and two on the top sides. For the twin keeler, I just put th outside stringer on ,nearest the chine. That way ,they dont interfere with installing the keels. I put the rest on after the keels are in.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Is it possible to weld all the stringhers on the flat sheet before bending? How many stringhers do you have on a 31/36 feet? If I understand they shuold be two on the side and three on the bottom. Do they bend easly all togheter once welded on place?ThanksAlex | 32050|31984|2015-02-13 04:20:28|Brian Stannard|Re: aluminum 36|The only differences between a steel 36 and an aluminum 36 are the increased cost of the aluminum over steel and this is balanced by not needing to paint the aluminum except below the waterline outside. No paint needed inside. An aluminum 36, with the same displacement as a steel 36 will sail better and have better stability - more ballast. It will also have a higher resale value. On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 9:11 PM, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Thanks Hannu,I t seems like a finished  aluminum hull BS  would be as expensive as a Crealock 37. Perhaps there is some way to lower costs.Phil -- CheersBrian | 32051|31984|2015-02-13 05:11:05|Hannu Venermo|Re: aluminum 36| Alu boats can be less expensive to build, easily. Just find 3 people or more who want the same hull. I can cnc cut them, really cheaply and quickly, and they can be welded very cheaply with industrial tools. But it must be 3 or more, at one time, in one place. I agree the more expensive alu boat can have better resale value.. but it really mostly wont. Re-sale values of rare boats are a fraction of build costs - maybe 1/10 to 1/5. So its a loss, in a sense, except that you get more absolute out of whatever you built for your own pleasure. Boats are a near-total loss in financial terms, for 90% of boat owners. Nordhavns are a very rare exception. In a sense, the idea of spending less and boating more, as Brent recommends, is great and I agree totally. I dont agree at all with the build costs. It will be much more expensive to build the alu boat. Just ask anyone who builds them commercially. The better sailing .. well it depends. Alu is NOT lighter than steel in terms of strength. Alu is 1/3 the mass and 1/3 the strength. (And 3x the thermal expansion. Does not matter sizewise in boats). IF an alu boat is lighter, its because its less strong. If you then add more ballect (lead is expensive), it will then sail better. But its not a simple a=>b equation. Alu is thermally VERY conductive (3x steel). It needs excellent insulation, so in terms of paint costs (build) its a wash. Otoh, alu hulls need no paint, so in terms of maintenance they are great. The owner cruiser I met here in Barcelona, had been living inside his nice, tiny, 11 m alu boat for 11 years. Boat worked well, he seemed happy. Living space was not enough for long term living, for a family, imo, ime. Camping - yes. Trips - yes. Living alone - yes. Living with family - no. On 13/02/2015 10:12, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote: The only differences between a steel 36 and an aluminum 36 are the increased cost of the aluminum over steel and this is balanced by not needing to paint the aluminum except below the waterline outside. No paint needed inside. An aluminum 36, with the same displacement as a steel 36 will sail better and have better stability - more ballast. It will also have a higher resale value. On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 9:11 PM, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Thanks Hannu, I t seems like a finished  aluminum hull BS  would be as expensive as a Crealock 37. Perhaps there is some way to lower costs. Phil -- Cheers Brian -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32060|31984|2015-02-13 19:09:56|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|When Ercan built the first aluminium 36, steel for a 36 was around $6K aluminium $20K. Welding is far more expensive for aluminium and can only be done in flat calm dry conditionsWhile using an aluminium dinghy in the tropics, I had to paint the aft end of it white so it wouldn't  burn my feet. Friends in an unpainted aluminiumn boat had to wait til 2am for it to cool of enough to let them get to sleep, the sun had heated it up that much.So, in the tropics you have to pain tit white, or fry. Admittedly, it is a much cheaper paint .You can just as easily CNC cut steel---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Alu boats can be less expensive to build, easily. Just find 3 people or more who want the same hull. I can cnc cut them, really cheaply and quickly, and they can be welded very cheaply with industrial tools. But it must be 3 or more, at one time, in one place. I agree the more expensive alu boat can have better resale value.. but it really mostly wont. Re-sale values of rare boats are a fraction of build costs - maybe 1/10 to 1/5. So its a loss, in a sense, except that you get more absolute out of whatever you built for your own pleasure. Boats are a near-total loss in financial terms, for 90% of boat owners. Nordhavns are a very rare exception. In a sense, the idea of spending less and boating more, as Brent recommends, is great and I agree totally. I dont agree at all with the build costs. It will be much more expensive to build the alu boat. Just ask anyone who builds them commercially. The better sailing .. well it depends. Alu is NOT lighter than steel in terms of strength. Alu is 1/3 the mass and 1/3 the strength. (And 3x the thermal expansion. Does not matter sizewise in boats). IF an alu boat is lighter, its because its less strong. If you then add more ballect (lead is expensive), it will then sail better. But its not a simple a=>b equation. Alu is thermally VERY conductive (3x steel). It needs excellent insulation, so in terms of paint costs (build) its a wash. Otoh, alu hulls need no paint, so in terms of maintenance they are great. The owner cruiser I met here in Barcelona, had been living inside his nice, tiny, 11 m alu boat for 11 years. Boat worked well, he seemed happy. Living space was not enough for long term living, for a family, imo, ime. Camping - yes. Trips - yes. Living alone - yes. Living with family - no. On 13/02/2015 10:12, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote: The only differences between a steel 36 and an aluminum 36 are the increased cost of the aluminum over steel and this is balanced by not needing to paint the aluminum except below the waterline outside. No paint needed inside. An aluminum 36, with the same displacement as a steel 36 will sail better and have better stability - more ballast. It will also have a higher resale value.On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 9:11 PM, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Thanks Hannu, I t seems like a finished  aluminum hull BS  would be as expensive as a Crealock 37. Perhaps there is some way to lower costs. Phil -- Cheers Brian -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32061|32037|2015-02-13 19:11:39|brentswain38|Re: Stringers way of bending|There is no need to pre-bend any stringers.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks. I've noticed that in the Kim's series of photos of building a 26' the two bottom stringers have been welded on the flat sheet already bended. I mean they are prebended following the shape of the cuts in the sheet. Maybe they take a better shape once the entire half shell is curved. Is that necessary?Alex2015-02-13 1:37 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  Yes, by all means weld your stringers on while the plate is flat on the ground. They bend easily. Make sure there are no serious humps and  hollows in it, or they will become permanent. For the single keeler,  I put three stringers on each of the bottom halves, and two on the top sides. For the twin keeler, I just put th outside stringer on ,nearest the chine. That way ,they dont interfere with installing the keels. I put the rest on after the keels are in.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Is it possible to weld all the stringhers on the flat sheet before bending? How many stringhers do you have on a 31/36 feet? If I understand they shuold be two on the side and three on the bottom. Do they bend easly all togheter once welded on place?ThanksAlex| 32062|31984|2015-02-13 19:17:57|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|When steel cost $6K and aluminium $20K I don't think it would cost anywhere near $14K for a paint job.Bare aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to burn you instantly on contact, unless it is painted. So you do have to paint it.Inside, a penny dropped in the bilge will eat right thru with electrolysis, so I would recommend epoxying the bilges.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The only differences between a steel 36 and an aluminum 36 are the increased cost of the aluminum over steel and this is balanced by not needing to paint the aluminum except below the waterline outside. No paint needed inside. An aluminum 36, with the same displacement as a steel 36 will sail better and have better stability - more ballast. It will also have a higher resale value. On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 9:11 PM, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Thanks Hannu,I t seems like a finished  aluminum hull BS  would be as expensive as a Crealock 37. Perhaps there is some way to lower costs.Phil-- CheersBrian | 32065|31984|2015-02-14 04:34:47|Hannu Venermo|Re: aluminum 36|Hi Brent ! Actually, steel is often cheaper to cnc cut, as its cheap to laser-cut steel sheets. Smaller lasers deal with steel very well, and its a very cheap process, nowadays. Alu is hard to laser cut- reflections and thermal conductivity make it not work well (=expensive, needs a very big laser). Depending, cnc cut steel sheets can be cheaper than the price you would get for the same sheets uncut. Plasma is also a cheap steel cnc-cutting method, although the edges get hard. This may or may not matter - apparently not according to some builds online. However, alu can be cut with a router, a very cheap cnc machine/process. Its the setting up that is costly, and all the details in doin the boat. Thats why alu hull costs would go way down, if there were many done at a time. Brent, Your numbers re_materials costs at 6000 vs 20.000 are exctly what I thought they might be. As is the welding costs comment. This is another part that would be very much cheaper, if three were done. On 14/02/2015 01:09, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > You can just as easily CNC cut steel -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32071|31984|2015-02-14 17:24:15|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would definitely want all  the offcuts, as you use almost everything in my designs.On the last boat I did we used steel cutting skillsaw blades. One blade was good for about 35 feet of 3/16th at around $40 per blade. More costly than plasma, but not that much more than cutting torch gasses, and the edges looked like they had been machined. You could leave the job to a first time beginner and get a perfect cut.Hi Brent ! Actually, steel is often cheaper to cnc cut, as its cheap to laser-cut steel sheets. Smaller lasers deal with steel very well, and its a very cheap process, nowadays. Alu is hard to laser cut- reflections and thermal conductivity make it not work well (=expensive, needs a very big laser). Depending, cnc cut steel sheets can be cheaper than the price you would get for the same sheets uncut. Plasma is also a cheap steel cnc-cutting method, although the edges get hard. This may or may not matter - apparently not according to some builds online. However, alu can be cut with a router, a very cheap cnc machine/process. Its the setting up that is costly, and all the details in doin the boat. Thats why alu hull costs would go way down, if there were many done at a time. Brent, Your numbers re_materials costs at 6000 vs 20.000 are exctly what I thought they might be. As is the welding costs comment. This is another part that would be very much cheaper, if three were done. On 14/02/2015 01:09, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > You can just as easily CNC cut steel -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32080|32080|2015-02-15 10:45:02|badpirate36|Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|I just had my BS36 spray foamed. Sangs sprayfoam in richmond, bc. used BASF's wallrite closed cell spray foam. I was very happy with the job and the price ($3000). The aluminium hull was previously sandblasted and epoxy coated, then the bulk heads and furring strips were foamed in place. But now comes the difficult part of carving and sanding the foam back to the firing strips. Any ideas or favorite tools anyone has had success with would be very helpfull. Thanx Tom| 32081|32080|2015-02-15 11:14:23|James Pronk|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|I have shaped surf boards with sandpaper for hardwood flooring which was a 24 grit. Worked well but don't know how it would work for a big area like that. James| 32082|32080|2015-02-15 11:22:11|garyhlucas|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques| This looks like the right kind of tool:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOAM-KNIFE-36-SPRAY-FOAM-INSULATION-CUTTING-TOOL-/311179485859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4873be22a3   I think the biggest problem is that cutting generates dust sticks to everything due to static.  They make air nozzles like this:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Q6-7-1-SIMCO-D167QG-STATIC-ELIMINATOR-/291382142626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d7baa6a2   That might make it a lot easier to clean up the mess.  I’d also consider a shop vac and put a polybag in the tank so you suck up the dust and then just tie the bag to dispose instead of trying to dump it out which is really tough to do.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 10:45 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques     I just had my BS36 spray foamed. Sangs sprayfoam in richmond, bc. used BASF's wallrite closed cell spray foam. I was very happy with the job and the price ($3000). The aluminium hull was previously sandblasted and epoxy coated, then the bulk heads and furring strips were foamed in place. But now comes the difficult part of carving and sanding the foam back to the firing strips. Any ideas or favorite tools anyone has had success with would be very helpfull.ThanxTom| 32083|32080|2015-02-15 11:26:29|James Pronk|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|Looks like a length of bandsaw blade with a handle on it? From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques Sent: Sun, Feb 15, 2015 4:18:04 PM   This looks like the right kind of tool:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOAM-KNIFE-36-SPRAY-FOAM-INSULATION-CUTTING-TOOL-/311179485859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4873be22a3   I think the biggest problem is that cutting generates dust sticks to everything due to static.  They make air nozzles like this:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Q6-7-1-SIMCO-D167QG-STATIC-ELIMINATOR-/291382142626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d7baa6a2   That might make it a lot easier to clean up the mess.  I’d also consider a shop vac and put a polybag in the tank so you suck up the dust and then just tie the bag to dispose instead of trying to dump it out which is really tough to do.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 10:45 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques     I just had my BS36 spray foamed. Sangs sprayfoam in richmond, bc. used BASF's wallrite closed cell spray foam. I was very happy with the job and the price ($3000). The aluminium hull was previously sandblasted and epoxy coated, then the bulk heads and furring strips were foamed in place. But now comes the difficult part of carving and sanding the foam back to the firing strips. Any ideas or favorite tools anyone has had success with would be very helpfull.ThanxTom | 32086|32080|2015-02-15 12:34:23|Aaron|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|I was thinking someone talked about using an electric knife with adapted to a long blade  From: "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" To: Origami Boats Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques   Looks like a length of bandsaw blade with a handle on it? From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques Sent: Sun, Feb 15, 2015 4:18:04 PM   This looks like the right kind of tool:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOAM-KNIFE-36-SPRAY-FOAM-INSULATION-CUTTING-TOOL-/311179485859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4873be22a3   I think the biggest problem is that cutting generates dust sticks to everything due to static.  They make air nozzles like this:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Q6-7-1-SIMCO-D167QG-STATIC-ELIMINATOR-/291382142626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d7baa6a2   That might make it a lot easier to clean up the mess.  I’d also consider a shop vac and put a polybag in the tank so you suck up the dust and then just tie the bag to dispose instead of trying to dump it out which is really tough to do.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 10:45 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques     I just had my BS36 spray foamed. Sangs sprayfoam in richmond, bc. used BASF's wallrite closed cell spray foam. I was very happy with the job and the price ($3000). The aluminium hull was previously sandblasted and epoxy coated, then the bulk heads and furring strips were foamed in place. But now comes the difficult part of carving and sanding the foam back to the firing strips. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1771289101 #ygrps-yiv-1771289101yiv3244787284 #ygrps-yiv-1771289101yiv3244787284ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1771289101 #ygrps-yiv-1771289101yiv3244787284 #ygrps-yiv-1771289101yiv3244787284ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1771289101 | 32087|32080|2015-02-15 15:34:48|Darren Bos|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques| I can't remember where I came across it, but someone had recommended that an oscillating tool works particularly well for this job.  I was intending to try one. http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/genesis-multi-purpose-oscillating-tool/A-p8299869e Darren On 15-02-15 07:45 AM, badpirate@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I just had my BS36 spray foamed. Sangs sprayfoam in richmond, bc. used BASF's wallrite closed cell spray foam. I was very happy with the job and the price ($3000). The aluminium hull was previously sandblasted and epoxy coated, then the bulk heads and furring strips were foamed in place. But now comes the difficult part of carving and sanding the foam back to the firing strips. Any ideas or favorite tools anyone has had success with would be very helpfull. Thanx Tom | 32088|32080|2015-02-15 15:59:10|opuspaul|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|I used a coarse sanding disc on an angle grinder.  It worked fast and worked well but as mentioned it made a tremendous mess.   If you don't want the mess, I would try a cutting blade to get the bigger chunks first.  Either an electric knife if you can get close or some kind of double handed saw blade.  You could try a thin flexible wood saw with a handle on each end for control and work it back and forth.  Use the angle grinder to finish and you can shave it down until it is just right. | 32089|32080|2015-02-15 16:11:42|brentswain38|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|Go to the thrift store and buy a fish filleting knife. Heat it red  hot near the handle and bend it 45 degrees. Then quench it. Sharpen it razor sharp. Having the blade at 45 degrees to the handle keeps the handle out of the way when cutting flat surfaces.Keeps the foam in pieces, instead of turning it into  the super itchy foam dust. You still get foam dust ,but nowhere near as much.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I used a coarse sanding disc on an angle grinder.  It worked fast and worked well but as mentioned it made a tremendous mess.   If you don't want the mess, I would try a cutting blade to get the bigger chunks first.  Either an electric knife if you can get close or some kind of double handed saw blade.  You could try a thin flexible wood saw with a handle on each end for control and work it back and forth.  Use the angle grinder to finish and you can shave it down until it is just right. | 32090|32080|2015-02-15 16:21:28|brentswain38|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :As any  piece of metal the size of your fingernail poking thru the foam, will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, make sure you leave at lest a half inch of foam covering   any metal ,including stringers deck beams and longitudinals, etc.On my last boat, I made the big mistake of trimming my foam flush with deck beams and stringers. On cold nights, I could see the lines of them in ice, on the undersides of the decks, and they turned  the paneling black, in the pattern of the deck beams and stringers.This is another very common screwup.Go to the thrift store and buy a fish filleting knife. Heat it red  hot near the handle and bend it 45 degrees. Then quench it. Sharpen it razor sharp. Having the blade at 45 degrees to the handle keeps the handle out of the way when cutting flat surfaces.Keeps the foam in pieces, instead of turning it into  the super itchy foam dust. You still get foam dust ,but nowhere near as much.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I used a coarse sanding disc on an angle grinder.  It worked fast and worked well but as mentioned it made a tremendous mess.   If you don't want the mess, I would try a cutting blade to get the bigger chunks first.  Either an electric knife if you can get close or some kind of double handed saw blade.  You could try a thin flexible wood saw with a handle on each end for control and work it back and forth.  Use the angle grinder to finish and you can shave it down until it is just right. | 32094|32080|2015-02-15 17:32:10|James Pronk|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|Now if you make-up a 5" or 8" wide blade you would be set. I've been using one of these saws for cutting fibreglass and it cuts. through it like butter.| 32095|32095|2015-02-15 19:44:34|chrish123ca|Test post|Just checking to for firm the subscription process actually worked| 32099|31984|2015-02-16 02:25:26|Alex Bar|Re: aluminum 36|Is the cnc router for aluminium used even for big sheet size? What do you mean for high setting up cost?Alex2015-02-14 10:34 GMT+01:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Hi Brent ! Actually, steel is often cheaper to cnc cut, as its cheap to laser-cut steel sheets. Smaller lasers deal with steel very well, and its a very cheap process, nowadays. Alu is hard to laser cut- reflections and thermal conductivity make it not work well (=expensive, needs a very big laser). Depending, cnc cut steel sheets can be cheaper than the price you would get for the same sheets uncut. Plasma is also a cheap steel cnc-cutting method, although the edges get hard. This may or may not matter - apparently not according to some builds online. However, alu can be cut with a router, a very cheap cnc machine/process. Its the setting up that is costly, and all the details in doin the boat. Thats why alu hull costs would go way down, if there were many done at a time. Brent, Your numbers re_materials costs at 6000 vs 20.000 are exctly what I thought they might be. As is the welding costs comment. This is another part that would be very much cheaper, if three were done. On 14/02/2015 01:09, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > You can just as easily CNC cut steel -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32100|31984|2015-02-16 02:50:35|Hannu Venermo|Re: aluminum 36|Routers are available in all sizes. E.g. Haas GRIs go to about 3x10 m in size, iirc, and (much) bigger ones exist. The high setup costs comes from making one metal boat, professionally. Everything is done just *once*, and this takes up lots of hours. Option1: If done professionally, you have the right tools, space, power and know-how, but someone is paying for it. Option2: If done by someone for the first time, you usually dont have the tools, skills, and thus spend about 10x longer than doing it with the proper tools. Cutting plates and pieces for a non-brent boat, non-origami, takes up hundreds of hours, even with plasma. Typical metal boat building times are about 1 year extra, in the 12 m size, just for cutting up all the bits and pieces. A 12 m boat, traditional, takes about 7-10 years to finish, if they are ever finished. For a 10-11 m brentboat. A cnc router will cut alu sheets in about 1-2 hours. A cnc plasma will cut steel sheets in about 1/2-1 hour. A laser will cut steel sheets in about 15 minutes. Costs for all 3 technologies might be in the range 200-400$ per hour, sometimes quite a bit less. And perhaps one hour extra, or not, for loading and unloading the stuff. To get this done, the plans must be in a computer readable form, a CAD file of some sort. My point is this: The laser cutting companies buy so much steel, that its likely cheaper to get ready-cut pieces from them, than the cost of the steel, alone, when done by yourself. On 16/02/2015 08:25, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Is the cnc router for aluminium used even for big sheet size? What do > you mean for high setting up cost? > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32106|31984|2015-02-16 11:28:13|wild_explorer|Re: aluminum 36|Just some comments... See below.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > Everything is done just *once*, and this takes up lots of hours. Yep... Right tools, jigs, building site, etc. will simplify builder's life. Convert CAD to CNC format. >Cutting plates and pieces for a non-brent boat, non-origami, takes up >hundreds of hours, even with plasma. ... Skipped... >For a 10-11 m brentboat. >A cnc router will cut alu sheets in about 1-2 hours. >A cnc plasma will cut steel sheets in about 1/2-1 hour. >A laser will cut steel sheets in about 15 minutes. If done with CNC, there is no big difference in cutting time for origami vs. non-origami. Plus, there is more manual "fitting" time in origami build - parts are not suitable for CNC cut. >Costs for all 3 technologies might be in the range 200-400$ per hour, >sometimes quite a bit less. >And perhaps one hour extra, or not, for loading and unloading the stuff. The main problem is to find big enough CNC cutting table. Especially if you need to cut 40x10 ft plate. >To get this done, the plans must be in a computer readable form, a CAD >file of some sort. Not a big problem. Just scan the plans into an image. Professional CNC programs allow import from different formats, even PDF. CAD files should be "CNC oriented"Because origami require more cut-to-fit parts, there is no big advantage using CNC pre-cut parts for the whole design first time (besides hull and decks). It will require building several boats and adjust CAD/CNC files for better fit. There is no such thing as to "cut one edge only" in production oriented CNC - you have to cut whole part. >My point is this: >The laser cutting companies buy so much steel, that its likely cheaper >to get ready-cut pieces from them, than the cost of the steel, alone, >when done by yourself. Most suppliers use 3-d parties for CNC cutting and supply only plates up to 20ft long (usually 10-12 ft only). You will have hard time to find plates 30 and 40 ft long (available only from suppliers working with boat yards). | 32108|31984|2015-02-16 15:17:19|opuspaul|Re: aluminum 36|The amount of time spent marking and cutting plates with Brent's method is really nothing.  I had the plates delivered and the hull cut out and pulled together in less than a week.  I am sure Brent does it much faster.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Just some comments... See below.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > Everything is done just *once*, and this takes up lots of hours. Yep... Right tools, jigs, building site, etc. will simplify builder's life. Convert CAD to CNC format. >Cutting plates and pieces for a non-brent boat, non-origami, takes up >hundreds of hours, even with plasma. ... Skipped... >For a 10-11 m brentboat. >A cnc router will cut alu sheets in about 1-2 hours. >A cnc plasma will cut steel sheets in about 1/2-1 hour. >A laser will cut steel sheets in about 15 minutes. If done with CNC, there is no big difference in cutting time for origami vs. non-origami. Plus, there is more manual "fitting" time in origami build - parts are not suitable for CNC cut. >Costs for all 3 technologies might be in the range 200-400$ per hour, >sometimes quite a bit less. >And perhaps one hour extra, or not, for loading and unloading the stuff. The main problem is to find big enough CNC cutting table. Especially if you need to cut 40x10 ft plate. >To get this done, the plans must be in a computer readable form, a CAD >file of some sort. Not a big problem. Just scan the plans into an image. Professional CNC programs allow import from different formats, even PDF. CAD files should be "CNC oriented"Because origami require more cut-to-fit parts, there is no big advantage using CNC pre-cut parts for the whole design first time (besides hull and decks). It will require building several boats and adjust CAD/CNC files for better fit. There is no such thing as to "cut one edge only" in production oriented CNC - you have to cut whole part. >My point is this: >The laser cutting companies buy so much steel, that its likely cheaper >to get ready-cut pieces from them, than the cost of the steel, alone, >when done by yourself. Most suppliers use 3-d parties for CNC cutting and supply only plates up to 20ft long (usually 10-12 ft only). You will have hard time to find plates 30 and 40 ft long (available only from suppliers working with boat yards). | 32109|31984|2015-02-16 15:21:24|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|Yes I have heard from several sources that you can get them pre-cut very cheaply.| 32110|32110|2015-02-16 15:22:42|smallboatvoyaguer|Life Rail sizes| Thoughts on 31 footer lifeline O.D.? I was thinking 1/2" sch 40 uprights (approx 7/8" O.D.) and 3/4" sch 40 rails (approx. 1 1/16" O.D.)-Marlin | 32112|32110|2015-02-16 17:46:37|brentswain38|Re: Life Rail sizes|You could do that, but I'd prefer 3/4 inch sch 40 all around, including the uprights.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thoughts on 31 footer lifeline O.D.? I was thinking 1/2" sch 40 uprights (approx 7/8" O.D.) and 3/4" sch 40 rails (approx. 1 1/16" O.D.)-Marlin | 32114|32110|2015-02-16 18:06:38|Robert Jones|Re: Life Rail sizes|The larger the rail, the more comfortable to lean(fishing or hauling stuff) or banging against. I'm with Brent! On Monday, February 16, 2015 4:46 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   You could do that, but I'd prefer 3/4 inch sch 40 all around, including the uprights.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thoughts on 31 footer lifeline O.D.? 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I went with 1in. SS pipe all round for rail.  In this case size matters.  If you slip and bang into one, and you will, the bigger size will help when it comes to having less pain and damage to your body.   Martin  (Prairie Maid)| 32118|32110|2015-02-17 00:33:05|Aaron|Re: Life Rail sizes|I had 1" aluminum on my powerboat and for my hands it was fine for some 3/4 my make for a better grip. But the leaning on and bouncing into 1" is more forgiving.  From: "Robert Jones pha7env@... [origamiboats]" To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Rail sizes   The larger the rail, the more comfortable to lean(fishing or hauling stuff) or banging against. I'm with Brent! On Monday, February 16, 2015 4:46 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   You could do that, but I'd prefer 3/4 inch sch 40 all around, including the uprights.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thoughts on 31 footer lifeline O.D.? 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#ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1693902227 #ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660 #ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1693902227 #ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660 #ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1693902227 #ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660 #ygrps-yiv-1693902227yiv7211302660ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1693902227 | 32120|32120|2015-02-17 02:23:43|Alex Bar|Building time|I'm trying to understand the real advantage of the origami method. Could you tell me what was the average time to make the half hull and than to join the two shells without the time spent in cutting sheets, welding stringers and bulwark pipe.Only the folding time.More the answers more accurate the analysis.ThanksAlex| 32124|32120|2015-02-17 07:00:58|James Pronk|Re: Building time|I only know from talking to people who have done it and looking at their photos. From what I know it takes about four days to cut, form, weld the bulk ward pipe on and pull the two halves together. That is just tacking everything together though. No need to loft of the whole boat weld frames together, build a strong back to build it on. There is no lifting and fitting of plates on the framing. The time saved building this way is incredible! Time is time and you can't buy it back!James From: Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Building time Sent: Tue, Feb 17, 2015 7:23:41 AM   I'm trying to understand the real advantage of the origami method. Could you tell me what was the average time to make the half hull and than to join the two shells without the time spent in cutting sheets, welding stringers and bulwark pipe.Only the folding time.More the answers more accurate the analysis.ThanksAlex | 32130|32120|2015-02-17 13:22:02|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Building time|  No hard chines above the water. Build method leaves much less distortion. That means no "sick horse" look.  If I had chosen to go with the traditional strong back method, I would need a lot more space for a much longer amount of time. Instead, I've been able to build all the deck hardware indoors in a 8x8 room this winter. I've made all my full size templates, and now all I need to do is trace them onto the plate, cut, and build. Sounds fun! Brent is good guy. His boats are designed well because he walks the walk. I have gotten treated like shit by every other designer I've contacted. Bruce Roberts, Gilbert - Caroff- Duflos, Colvin, they all wanted over a grand for plans, Caroff wanted $2,600! That was enough to end my dream right then and there. Colvin called me a tire kicker and a waste of his time. Literally. Then a friend told me about Brent. I had trouble getting my payment to Brent and he just mailed me his book anyway, then he actually called me, CALLED ME, to see if I'd gotten it.  Get Brent's book. Then get Tom Colvin's book. Compare the two. Thankfully I never saw the Colvin book before I started otherwise I probably never would have.  Besides the building method, the overall design of Brent's boats is incredible. After visiting Vancouver Island and seeing the boats in person, I was blown away. So much room on deck and especially inside! I now look back on all the boats I've owned and sailed on, and they seem toy like. Almost ridiculous. These are serious boats for serious sailors. Rugged, intelligent, vessels on par or above any working vessel out there. I have not sailed on one, but I also hear they sail very well. Maintenance. If I am living aboard that means my boat is getting worn out faster. That means more maintenance. If anyone told me they liked varnishing, waxing, re-bedding, and buffing I'd think they haven't had a boat long or they're full of shit. Not to mention the health risks that come with those activities, year after year, and the damage to the environment. But I suppose, this last section is about steel in general. And god damn Brent boats look gooood in the water. When I see a Brent Boat, I see the influence of all the famous small boats that came before, and in that, I see a dedication to the evolution of maritime navigation, a tradition which goes back long before humans began capitalizing on mariners, to a time when a vessel was designed to meld with it's surroundings, and to protect it's passengers in the most trying of conditions, against all odds.  It's true: a good boat can be designed via formal training. BUT, An exceptional boat can only be designed by having an understanding of the sea gained through experience. Most of the fishing boats in my town were designed and built between 1920-1950 by guys who didn't even know how to read. Some of them used only battens for measuring. Most of those boats are still floating and working today. They are sought after by commercial fisheries. I know the builders families, I've held their half hulls and models, touched their tools. I've been to the spots where they sat and carved their models while staring at our inland sea. Unfortunately, it is all fading away into the past, being replaced by sub-par plastic boats, condominiums, and cookie cutter marinas. It may not seem like it, but by building a Brent boat, you are keeping a tradition alive.Fish Tugs Of The Greatest Lake Fish Tugs Of The Greatest Lake Introduction: About this web page. History: The evolution of fish boat design at Bayfield, Wisconsin. Photo Gallery: Modern and hi... View on www.harveyhadland... Preview by Yahoo   That's all I got for now. | 32131|32120|2015-02-17 13:39:19|Chris Salayka|Re: Building time| Well said!!   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 17 February 2015 12:22 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building time        No hard chines above the water.  Build method leaves much less distortion. That means no "sick horse" look.    If I had chosen to go with the traditional strong back method, I would need a lot more space for a much longer amount of time. Instead, I've been able to build all the deck hardware indoors in a 8x8 room this winter. I've made all my full size templates, and now all I need to do is trace them onto the plate, cut, and build. Sounds fun!  Brent is good guy. His boats are designed well because he walks the walk. I have gotten treated like shit by every other designer I've contacted. Bruce Roberts, Gilbert - Caroff- Duflos, Colvin, they all wanted over a grand for plans, Caroff wanted $2,600! That was enough to end my dream right then and there. Colvin called me a tire kicker and a waste of his time. Literally. Then a friend told me about Brent. I had trouble getting my payment to Brent and he just mailed me his book anyway, then he actually called me, CALLED ME, to see if I'd gotten it.  Get Brent's book. Then get Tom Colvin's book. Compare the two. Thankfully I never saw the Colvin book before I started otherwise I probably never would have.  Besides the building method, the overall design of Brent's boats is incredible. After visiting Vancouver Island and seeing the boats in person, I was blown away. So much room on deck and especially inside! I now look back on all the boats I've owned and sailed on, and they seem toy like. Almost ridiculous. These are serious boats for serious sailors. Rugged, intelligent, vessels on par or above any working vessel out there. I have not sailed on one, but I also hear they sail very well.  Maintenance. If I am living aboard that means my boat is getting worn out faster. That means more maintenance. If anyone told me they liked varnishing, waxing, re-bedding, and buffing I'd think they haven't had a boat long or they're full of shit. Not to mention the health risks that come with those activities, year after year, and the damage to the environment. But I suppose, this last section is about steel in general.  And god damn Brent boats look gooood in the water. When I see a Brent Boat, I see the influence of all the famous small boats that came before, and in that, I see a dedication to the evolution of maritime navigation, a tradition which goes back long before humans began capitalizing on mariners, to a time when a vessel was designed to meld with it's surroundings, and to protect it's passengers in the most trying of conditions, against all odds.  It's true: a good boat can be designed via formal training. BUT, An exceptional boat can only be designed by having an understanding of the sea gained through experience. Most of the fishing boats in my town were designed and built between 1920-1950 by guys who didn't even know how to read. Some of them used only battens for measuring. Most of those boats are still floating and working today. They are sought after by commercial fisheries. I know the builders families, I've held their half hulls and models, touched their tools. I've been to the spots where they sat and carved their models while staring at our inland sea. Unfortunately, it is all fading away into the past, being replaced by sub-par plastic boats, condominiums, and cookie cutter marinas. It may not seem like it, but by building a Brent boat, you are keeping a tradition alive. Fish Tugs Of The Greatest Lake Fish Tugs Of The Greatest Lake Introduction: About this web page. History: The evolution of fish boat design at Bayfield, Wisconsin. Photo Gallery: Modern and hi... View on www.harveyhadland... Preview by Yahoo    That's all I got for now.   This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. | 32133|32120|2015-02-17 15:13:27|brentswain38|Re: Building time|The steel for "Exit" a 36, came 2 pm on a Thursday. By 11 pm Friday nite we had the hull together , transom in, all stringers in and the bulwark caps on. That was with just two of us working on her, only one with steel bloat building  experience. A 40 footer wouldn't take a whole  lot longer.With  inexperienced builders, it would take bit longer, but not all that much longer. Dan Henkel's 36 in Sausalito took 6 days to tack together the hull, decks, cabin and cockpit. Colvin estimates 1,000 hours for a 40 ft hull and decks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm trying to understand the real advantage of the origami method. Could you tell me what was the average time to make the half hull and than to join the two shells without the time spent in cutting sheets, welding stringers and bulwark pipe.Only the folding time.More the answers more accurate the analysis.ThanksAlex| 32134|32120|2015-02-17 19:37:11|opuspaul|Re: Building time|Excellent post.   I am glad you said what you did about the actual design.   For a loaded up cruising boat, Brent's designs sail fantastic.  Most of the other cruising boats I have met don't even come close unless they are light displacement with small tanks and few stores on board.  Despite being overloaded, I have twice done over a 1000 miles in just over 6 days.   On one of the week long trips I passed a  65 Cheoy Lee and ended up beating it by 12 hours.   I will typically sail up with the 42 footers.  The design also sails well to windward.  This is a priority to me.   I couldn't stand being on a fat tub that can't make any progress against a trade wind slop or can't beat to windward off a lee shore.   The Spray designs are very popular but sail like crap to windward in a seaway.  I don't get it.  If you really want the room of a Spray, it would be much better to get a longer and leaner boat.   I once passed a heavy 35 foot double ender after 12 hours that had left on the same passage to windward 48 hours before.   Being on such a boat would be painful....  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :  No hard chines above the water. Build method leaves much less distortion. That means no "sick horse" look.  If I had chosen to go with the traditional strong back method, I would need a lot more space for a much longer amount of time. Instead, I've been able to build all the deck hardware indoors in a 8x8 room this winter. I've made all my full size templates, and now all I need to do is trace them onto the plate, cut, and build. Sounds fun! Brent is good guy. His boats are designed well because he walks the walk. I have gotten treated like shit by every other designer I've contacted. Bruce Roberts, Gilbert - Caroff- Duflos, Colvin, they all wanted over a grand for plans, Caroff wanted $2,600! That was enough to end my dream right then and there. Colvin called me a tire kicker and a waste of his time. Literally. Then a friend told me about Brent. I had trouble getting my payment to Brent and he just mailed me his book anyway, then he actually called me, CALLED ME, to see if I'd gotten it.  Get Brent's book. Then get Tom Colvin's book. Compare the two. Thankfully I never saw the Colvin book before I started otherwise I probably never would have.  Besides the building method, the overall design of Brent's boats is incredible. After visiting Vancouver Island and seeing the boats in person, I was blown away. So much room on deck and especially inside! I now look back on all the boats I've owned and sailed on, and they seem toy like. Almost ridiculous. These are serious boats for serious sailors. Rugged, intelligent, vessels on par or above any working vessel out there. I have not sailed on one, but I also hear they sail very well. Maintenance. If I am living aboard that means my boat is getting worn out faster. That means more maintenance. If anyone told me they liked varnishing, waxing, re-bedding, and buffing I'd think they haven't had a boat long or they're full of shit. Not to mention the health risks that come with those activities, year after year, and the damage to the environment. But I suppose, this last section is about steel in general. And god damn Brent boats look gooood in the water. When I see a Brent Boat, I see the influence of all the famous small boats that came before, and in that, I see a dedication to the evolution of maritime navigation, a tradition which goes back long before humans began capitalizing on mariners, to a time when a vessel was designed to meld with it's surroundings, and to protect it's passengers in the most trying of conditions, against all odds.  It's true: a good boat can be designed via formal training. BUT, An exceptional boat can only be designed by having an understanding of the sea gained through experience. Most of the fishing boats in my town were designed and built between 1920-1950 by guys who didn't even know how to read. Some of them used only battens for measuring. Most of those boats are still floating and working today. They are sought after by commercial fisheries. I know the builders families, I've held their half hulls and models, touched their tools. I've been to the spots where they sat and carved their models while staring at our inland sea. Unfortunately, it is all fading away into the past, being replaced by sub-par plastic boats, condominiums, and cookie cutter marinas. It may not seem like it, but by building a Brent boat, you are keeping a tradition alive.Fish Tugs Of The Greatest Lake Fish Tugs Of The Greatest Lake Introduction: About this web page. History: The evolution of fish boat design at Bayfield, Wisconsin. Photo Gallery: Modern and hi... View on www.harveyhadland... Preview by Yahoo   That's all I got for now. | 32139|32120|2015-02-17 21:45:05|phil_sigmund|Re: Building time|I support your views. Also it seems to me  the original Bristol Channel Cutters were put together by guys like Brent.| 32145|32120|2015-02-18 13:16:45|Alex Bar|Re: Building time|There's something I don't understand. There are about three thousand members on this group. And looking at the photo album it seems that some of them has built his own boat or at least is now building it. The only accurate answer about my question is from Brent (thanks a lot). It would be interesting to know non professional experience and trials.I mean, we are talking to build a boat not a bicycle...Alex2015-02-17 21:13 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   The steel for "Exit" a 36, came 2 pm on a Thursday. By 11 pm Friday nite we had the hull together , transom in, all stringers in and the bulwark caps on. That was with just two of us working on her, only one with steel bloat building  experience. A 40 footer wouldn't take a whole  lot longer.With  inexperienced builders, it would take bit longer, but not all that much longer. Dan Henkel's 36 in Sausalito took 6 days to tack together the hull, decks, cabin and cockpit. Colvin estimates 1,000 hours for a 40 ft hull and decks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm trying to understand the real advantage of the origami method. Could you tell me what was the average time to make the half hull and than to join the two shells without the time spent in cutting sheets, welding stringers and bulwark pipe.Only the folding time.More the answers more accurate the analysis.ThanksAlex | 32146|31984|2015-02-18 13:24:53|Alex Bar|Re: aluminum 36|Sorry Opusnz, I didn't see your answer...2015-02-16 21:17 GMT+01:00 opusnz@... [origamiboats] :   The amount of time spent marking and cutting plates with Brent's method is really nothing.  I had the plates delivered and the hull cut out and pulled together in less than a week.  I am sure Brent does it much faster.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Just some comments... See below.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > Everything is done just *once*, and this takes up lots of hours. Yep... Right tools, jigs, building site, etc. will simplify builder's life. Convert CAD to CNC format. >Cutting plates and pieces for a non-brent boat, non-origami, takes up >hundreds of hours, even with plasma. ... Skipped... >For a 10-11 m brentboat. >A cnc router will cut alu sheets in about 1-2 hours. >A cnc plasma will cut steel sheets in about 1/2-1 hour. >A laser will cut steel sheets in about 15 minutes. If done with CNC, there is no big difference in cutting time for origami vs. non-origami. Plus, there is more manual "fitting" time in origami build - parts are not suitable for CNC cut. >Costs for all 3 technologies might be in the range 200-400$ per hour, >sometimes quite a bit less. >And perhaps one hour extra, or not, for loading and unloading the stuff. The main problem is to find big enough CNC cutting table. Especially if you need to cut 40x10 ft plate. >To get this done, the plans must be in a computer readable form, a CAD >file of some sort. Not a big problem. Just scan the plans into an image. Professional CNC programs allow import from different formats, even PDF. CAD files should be "CNC oriented"Because origami require more cut-to-fit parts, there is no big advantage using CNC pre-cut parts for the whole design first time (besides hull and decks). It will require building several boats and adjust CAD/CNC files for better fit. There is no such thing as to "cut one edge only" in production oriented CNC - you have to cut whole part. >My point is this: >The laser cutting companies buy so much steel, that its likely cheaper >to get ready-cut pieces from them, than the cost of the steel, alone, >when done by yourself. Most suppliers use 3-d parties for CNC cutting and supply only plates up to 20ft long (usually 10-12 ft only). You will have hard time to find plates 30 and 40 ft long (available only from suppliers working with boat yards). | 32147|32120|2015-02-18 13:56:16|Hannu Venermo|Re: Building time|Most people are not active. They either built the boat, and went sailing, did not build, and wont, or drifted into something else. On most groups I belong to, about 1-2% of members have stayed the 12 years I have been active. For the first 5-7 years I posted very little- I was mostly learning. Now I have a lot more skills, experience, and tools, and stuff to share. The PC and IT stuff I could have contributed 12 years ago is just as valid, but its not really a direct part of this group. And I only do pc-it stuff when I cant avoid it, or for plenty of money. Id rather build machine tools, robots, automation and boats, and focus on these. On 18/02/2015 19:16, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > There's something I don't understand. There are about three thousand > members on this group. And looking at the photo album it seems that > some of them has built his own boat or at least is now building it. > The only accurate answer about my question is from Brent (thanks a > lot). It would be interesting to know non professional experience and > trials. > I mean, we are talking to build a boat not a bicycle... > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32148|31984|2015-02-18 13:56:16|opuspaul|Re: aluminum 36|No problem....I can add a bit more.  It took me and one other guy 4 weeks to get the basic hull tacked together.  That was from plate delivery to hull, decks, keel, skeg, rudder and cockpit.   This is only stitched together.....no finish welds with tacked seams and none of the detail work.   We worked about 10 hour days but didn't work weekends and had a couple days off due to rain.  I was young and keen but probably useless and learned to weld on the job.   I know at the time that a lot of boats were being done to the same stage in about 3 weeks.  This was in 1986.   Brent has faster and better ways of doing things now.   I know from talking to others and seeing him build other boats that he works like a man possessed.   Turn your head for a few minutes and a rudder will suddenly appear.   I would try to hire somebody like Brent who has done it before even if I had to fly them in for a few weeks.  It will make it much easier to have two people and the experience really helps smooth things out.  You will learn a lot and it will probably save you money in the long run.There were several other amateur builders building steel boats at the time who watched it go together.  They were impressed and told me that they figured using Brent's methods would have saved them about a years work.The basic tacking together of the hull is the easy part....I wish the rest of the boat went so quick.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry Opusnz, I didn't see your answer...| 32150|32120|2015-02-18 16:36:19|lae52|Re: Building time|Thanks for the fantastic link to Fish Tugs. It's been awhile since I've seen them. I can't say about the other Great Lakes, but I think they may be peculiar to Lake Michigan and Superior.Another Wisconsinite,Dave| 32151|32120|2015-02-18 16:44:12|brentswain38|Re: Building time|On other sites, which  I have tried to contribute to, almost all my hecklers have several  things in common; zero long term cruising experience , almost zero metal boat building maintaining , zero long term live aboard experience, and almost zero steel boat building experience . Appearantly, that is what their moderators want, when they ban me, and leave them ,  so the only steel boat posts they get are theirs.So people on those posts get mostly totally useless  disinformation, by people  who know nothing  about  the subject.   That makes this one of the few steel boat forums which contain any usefull information.| 32153|31984|2015-02-19 00:44:18|wild_explorer|Re: aluminum 36|I second it. Experience is a BIG deal. I would do many things differently next time ;) So, if you can, build your boat in Canada with Brent's help. Having 7 sailboat's stands helps a lot too.The main advantage of Brent's method is to tack whole boat (especially superstructure) which allows to work inside and be protected from weather. Unfortunately, I got side tracked from my boat project and had to move unfinished hull (no keel, with fore and side decks on only). The hull survived moving without problems. I removed twist before move and fixed inside the hull with comealongs. I had to do some minor adjustments after moving, but it was not a big problem.I really regret that I did not tack cabin and pilothouse, because it is raining a lot here. First I will do when return back to my project, is to tack superstructure on (to be able to work inside in any weather).People from welding company who watched me pulling the hull, were really surprised to see how boat takes shape without lifting equipment in short period of time by only one person (some times with second person). I am sure that I am spending 3-5 times more hours for most tasks without proper experience (this is first time build for me).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent has faster and better ways of doing things now.   I know from talking to others and seeing him build other boats that he works like a man possessed.   Turn your head for a few minutes and a rudder will suddenly appear.   I would try to hire somebody like Brent who has done it before even if I had to fly them in for a few weeks.  It will make it much easier to have two people and the experience really helps smooth things out.  You will learn a lot and it will probably save you money in the long run.There were several other amateur builders building steel boats at the time who watched it go together.  They were impressed and told me that they figured using Brent's methods would have saved them about a years work.The basic tacking together of the hull is the easy part....I wish the rest of the boat went so quick.  Cheers, Paul| 32155|32120|2015-02-19 03:44:11|Hannu Venermo|Re: Building time|Agreed. Most boating involves money, bling, and not much else. Most "yacht" stuff is overpriced, and not fit for purpose, in terms of actual extended use in saling and cruising boats. Production sailboats in FBR are not bad, though. Thay just are not practical for what they sell as an image, sailing off for long distances to far-away places. On 18/02/2015 22:44, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > So people on those posts get mostly totally useless disinformation, > by people who know nothing about the subject. > That makes this one of the few steel boat forums which contain any > usefull information. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32159|32120|2015-02-19 05:42:29|Aaron|Re: Building time|AlexThe simple fact is doing the layout cutting and folding the hull is the easiest part and the part that gives one a lot of visual satisfaction.Then the work begins. But if one follows Brent methods it can go quite fast. Much faster than any thing that has ribs and multiple  chines.Get the video and Brent book, read the past post.  I found starting my boat 8 years ago was still a great experience and if time allows I will get it in the water and finish some other day.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]" Date:Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 9:16 AMSubject:Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time   There's something I don't understand. There are about three thousand members on this group. And looking at the photo album it seems that some of them has built his own boat or at least is now building it. The only accurate answer about my question is from Brent (thanks a lot). It would be interesting to know non professional experience and trials.I mean, we are talking to build a boat not a bicycle...Alex2015-02-17 21:13 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   The steel for "Exit" a 36, came 2 pm on a Thursday. By 11 pm Friday nite we had the hull together , transom in, all stringers in and the bulwark caps on. That was with just two of us working on her, only one with steel bloat building  experience. A 40 footer wouldn't take a whole  lot longer.With  inexperienced builders, it would take bit longer, but not all that much longer. Dan Henkel's 36 in Sausalito took 6 days to tack together the hull, decks, cabin and cockpit. Colvin estimates 1,000 hours for a 40 ft hull and decks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm trying to understand the real advantage of the origami method. Could you tell me what was the average time to make the half hull and than to join the two shells without the time spent in cutting sheets, welding stringers and bulwark pipe.Only the folding time.More the answers more accurate the analysis.ThanksAlex | 32161|31984|2015-02-19 10:27:18|Alex Bar|Re: aluminum 36|Ok, so it seems that the big of the job comes later. I'm sure it depends also from the amount of staff you want and from the finishing required. Surely those factors are extremely changeable from guy to guy. It's a personal choise.But is there any sperimented way for quickly building the interiors?Alex2015-02-18 19:56 GMT+01:00 opusnz@... [origamiboats] :   No problem....I can add a bit more.  It took me and one other guy 4 weeks to get the basic hull tacked together.  That was from plate delivery to hull, decks, keel, skeg, rudder and cockpit.   This is only stitched together.....no finish welds with tacked seams and none of the detail work.   We worked about 10 hour days but didn't work weekends and had a couple days off due to rain.  I was young and keen but probably useless and learned to weld on the job.   I know at the time that a lot of boats were being done to the same stage in about 3 weeks.  This was in 1986.   Brent has faster and better ways of doing things now.   I know from talking to others and seeing him build other boats that he works like a man possessed.   Turn your head for a few minutes and a rudder will suddenly appear.   I would try to hire somebody like Brent who has done it before even if I had to fly them in for a few weeks.  It will make it much easier to have two people and the experience really helps smooth things out.  You will learn a lot and it will probably save you money in the long run.There were several other amateur builders building steel boats at the time who watched it go together.  They were impressed and told me that they figured using Brent's methods would have saved them about a years work.The basic tacking together of the hull is the easy part....I wish the rest of the boat went so quick.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry Opusnz, I didn't see your answer... | 32166|32120|2015-02-19 17:16:49|brentswain38|Re: Building time|Buying into yachty bling culture can eat away at your money supply, and shorten your cruise . or postpone it indefinitely.I have been told that the founder of West Marine decided to do a circumnavigation using all West Marine  bling. At every port he had broken gear. He called a meeting of his suppliers in Frisco , where he screamed at them ":My customers are not your guinea pigs."  When people  like Bob Perry keep designing boats without any cruising  experience to go by, the only thing they ( and the Bobetes) have to judge boats and gear by is cosmetics.They don't have a clue about practical function.I was the same, as a beginner. The more one  cruises, the greater one's appreciation for work boat priorities . When one starts to choose experience based priorities, they incur the eye rolling sarcasm of the naive.Einstien summed it up well with  "The trouble with smart people is that they all appear insane to stupid people! "---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Agreed. Most boating involves money, bling, and not much else. Most "yacht" stuff is overpriced, and not fit for purpose, in terms of actual extended use in saling and cruising boats. Production sailboats in FBR are not bad, though. Thay just are not practical for what they sell as an image, sailing off for long distances to far-away places. On 18/02/2015 22:44, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > So people on those posts get mostly totally useless disinformation, > by people who know nothing about the subject. > That makes this one of the few steel boat forums which contain any > usefull information. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32167|32120|2015-02-19 17:30:52|opuspaul|Re: Building time|I helped him troubleshoot a lot of it while he was in Fiji.   His boat was full of gear and he was using it as a test bed for the company.  Much of it was overly complex, and totally unnecessary.  Neat boat though.http://www.westmarine.com/CruisingJournals/Randy-Repass  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Buying into yachty bling culture can eat away at your money supply, and shorten your cruise . or postpone it indefinitely.I have been told that the founder of West Marine decided to do a circumnavigation using all West Marine  bling. At every port he had broken gear. He called a meeting of his suppliers in Frisco , where he screamed at them ":My customers are not your guinea pigs."  When people  like Bob Perry keep designing boats without any cruising  experience to go by, the only thing they ( and the Bobetes) have to judge boats and gear by is cosmetics.They don't have a clue about practical function.I was the same, as a beginner. The more one  cruises, the greater one's appreciation for work boat priorities . When one starts to choose experience based priorities, they incur the eye rolling sarcasm of the naive.Einstien summed it up well with  "The trouble with smart people is that they all appear insane to stupid people! "| 32171|32120|2015-02-20 03:58:59|Hannu Venermo|Re: Building time|+1 Agree completely. Yet.. Average use of big boats (12 m and over) is 12 days a year. Most boats are not much used, and thus the fact they are not up to long-term trips is immaterial. I regularly charter plastic sailboats, and singlehanded barcelona-menorca (400 miles) for a weeks vacation. Ive done about 12 charters in different boats in 7 years, upto 15 m / 50 ft long (great !). The boats were *all* fine, and I would have no hesitation say crossing the atlantic in any one. None were suitable for cruising boats, or living in (the 50 ft was big enough. Grin). Not enough storage, no thermal insulation, not rugged enough, not enough battery capacity, poorly designed electrical system (power hungry), no pv (easily added), anchor too small, anchor winch too small. These minor defects are easily fixed yourself, later. These comments applied universally to all of the approx 12 different boats. Winches, sails and handling were all good to great. On 19/02/2015 23:16, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Buying into yachty bling culture can eat away at your money supply, > and shorten your cruise . or postpone it indefinitely. > I have been told that the founder of West Marine decided to do a > circumnavigation using all West Marine bling. At every port he had > broken gear. He called a meeting of his suppliers in Frisco , where he > screamed at them > ":My customers are not your guinea pigs." > When people like Bob Perry keep designing boats without any > cruising experience to go by, the only thing they ( and the Bobetes) > have to judge boats and gear by is cosmetics.They don't have a clue > about practical function. > I was the same, as a beginner. The more one cruises, the greater > one's appreciation for work boat priorities . When one starts to > choose experience based priorities, they incur the eye rolling sarcasm > of the naive. > Einstien summed it up well with "The trouble with smart people is > that they all appear insane to stupid people! " -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32172|32120|2015-02-20 06:40:02|James Pronk|Re: Building time|Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. James| 32175|32120|2015-02-20 08:05:52|a.sobriquet|Single handing|How does one set up a large boat for efficient single handling?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :... I regularly charter plastic sailboats, and singlehanded barcelona-menorca (400 miles) for a weeks vacation. Ive done about 12 charters in different boats in 7 years, upto 15 m / 50 ft long (great !)...Hannu Venermo | 32177|32120|2015-02-20 08:54:14|James Pronk|Re: Single handing|I find single-handed sailing is all about timing. Self steering or a good auto helm works well, it gives you some time to trim sails, make a tea or go pee. Also having a well-balanced boat helps a lot with single-handed sailing.James| 32178|32120|2015-02-20 10:06:31|Brian Stannard|Re: Building time|Rugged enough for what? Sailing? Or hitting a rock? The thousands and thousands out there sailing coastwise or crossing would cause one to disagree with that. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:40 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. James -- CheersBrian | 32180|32120|2015-02-20 11:36:59|Hannu Venermo|Re: Building time|I agree. As I said, standard commercial boats work fine, and 99% of all cruising is after all done on commercial fiberglass boats, with quiet a bit of success and enjoyment. On 20/02/2015 16:06, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Rugged enough for what? Sailing? Or hitting a rock? The thousands and > thousands out there sailing coastwise or crossing would cause one to > disagree with that. > -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32181|32120|2015-02-20 11:42:22|Hannu Venermo|Re: Single handing|Just sail. A small trip like that of 400 miles one leg needs nothing special. Sleep a bit, at night, in the open ocean (you can see other boats lights really far off). Wake up every now and then. Dont use the commercial routes (easy in this case). Have suitable food and drink, either ready or easy to cook with the stuff on board. I always stock up on excellent provisions. I always had autopilots, they are pretty much standard on charter boats in spain. I would not wish to go without autopilot (would not be enjoyable). I have done a lot of night sailing, no-one else goes out at night in Spain, normally (commercial fishing, but they arent out past 40 miles or so). On 20/02/2015 14:05, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote: > How does one set up a large boat for efficient single handling? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32184|32120|2015-02-20 13:55:41|James Pronk|Re: Building time|I have a Grampian 30 that one fender kicked up on and it rubbed for 3 days against some steel on the dock. Rubbed a hole right through it about 2' long. I sailed my Catalina 27 for 14 hours into about 4' high steep waves. The boat was pounding quite a lot and around three feet of tabbing on the forward bulkhead cracked and broken apart. I was told that gentlemen never sail to windward but I've never been accused of that. When I sail I sail hard. I Don't want some Leaky bendy boat.James From: Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time Sent: Fri, Feb 20, 2015 3:06:29 PM   Rugged enough for what? Sailing? Or hitting a rock? The thousands and thousands out there sailing coastwise or crossing would cause one to disagree with that.On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:40 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. James -- CheersBrian | 32185|32120|2015-02-20 14:04:47|Matt Malone|Re: Building time| James how thick was the glass on the Grampian 30 where you rubbed through ?  How far up the freeboard, was this?   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 10:55:40 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time   I have a Grampian 30 that one fender kicked up on and it rubbed for 3 days against some steel on the dock. Rubbed a hole right through it about 2' long. I sailed my Catalina 27 for 14 hours into about 4' high steep waves. The boat was pounding quite a lot and around three feet of tabbing on the forward bulkhead cracked and broken apart. I was told that gentlemen never sail to windward but I've never been accused of that. When I sail I sail hard. I Don't want some Leaky bendy boat.James From: Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time Sent: Fri, Feb 20, 2015 3:06:29 PM   Rugged enough for what? Sailing? Or hitting a rock? The thousands and thousands out there sailing coastwise or crossing would cause one to disagree with that.On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:40 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. James -- CheersBrian | 32186|32120|2015-02-20 14:45:58|James Pronk|Re: Building time|1/2" of glass about 6" below the bulkward. I bought the boat from insurance for $800, I'm taking the lead! James From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Building time Sent: Fri, Feb 20, 2015 7:04:45 PM   James how thick was the glass on the Grampian 30 where you rubbed through ?  How far up the freeboard, was this?   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 10:55:40 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time   I have a Grampian 30 that one fender kicked up on and it rubbed for 3 days against some steel on the dock. Rubbed a hole right through it about 2' long. I sailed my Catalina 27 for 14 hours into about 4' high steep waves. The boat was pounding quite a lot and around three feet of tabbing on the forward bulkhead cracked and broken apart. I was told that gentlemen never sail to windward but I've never been accused of that. When I sail I sail hard. I Don't want some Leaky bendy boat.James From: Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time Sent: Fri, Feb 20, 2015 3:06:29 PM   Rugged enough for what? Sailing? Or hitting a rock? The thousands and thousands out there sailing coastwise or crossing would cause one to disagree with that.On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:40 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. James -- CheersBrian | 32187|32120|2015-02-20 15:02:40|opuspaul|Re: Building time|You can sail offshore or cross an ocean in almost anything.   What it is really all about is having a boat that is robust enough that you are still content and confident when things get really bad.   Trying to sleep in the middle of the night during a storm when all you can think about is what is going to break next is no fun at all.I have sailed offshore on fiberglass boats that twisted and bent so much that I saw seams opening in the woodwork down below and doors would not open or close properly.  At night they creaked and groaned so much it was hard to sleep.   My friend sailed on a 30 foot racer to Hawaii and the hull would flex so much you could see it oil-canning between the frames when the waves hit it.   I have also been on other fiberglass boats that were no worry at all.  One fiberglass boat I know of has done 3 circumnavigations and is as solid as a rock.The real advantage of properly built metal boat is it is more likely to survive if you hit something or drag anchor one night and end up on the rocks.   It may never happen but if it does, you are on a much more forgiving boat.  If you are full time cruising and living on your boat, you increase the odds.    I think of having a metal boat as insurance.  Metal boats are also relatively quick and easy to build.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-35090339 #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987 .ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-35090339 #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987 .ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}James how thick was the glass on the Grampian 30 where you rubbed through ?  How far up the freeboard, was this?   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 10:55:40 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time I have a Grampian 30 that one fender kicked up on and it rubbed for 3 days against some steel on the dock. Rubbed a hole right through it about 2' long. I sailed my Catalina 27 for 14 hours into about 4' high steep waves. The boat was pounding quite a lot and around three feet of tabbing on the forward bulkhead cracked and broken apart. I was told that gentlemen never sail to windward but I've never been accused of that. When I sail I sail hard. I Don't want some Leaky bendy boat.James From: Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building time Sent: Fri, Feb 20, 2015 3:06:29 PM   Rugged enough for what? Sailing? Or hitting a rock? The thousands and thousands out there sailing coastwise or crossing would cause one to disagree with that.On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:40 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. 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{ font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-35090339 #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987 .ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-35090339 #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987 .ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-35090339 #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987 .ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-35090339ygrps-yiv-1081591987ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32188|32120|2015-02-20 15:08:47|opuspaul|Re: Single handing|There are entire books written on the subject :).When you are single handing, fatigue is your enemy.  Being too tired leads to taking risks and making bad decisions.   Personally, I wouldn't single hand a boat without a good reliable autopilot or windvane and a good way to get the anchor on board.    Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How does one set up a large boat for efficient single handling?| 32189|32120|2015-02-20 15:13:38|brentswain38|Re: Building time|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :While his purpose was to test the gear he was selling,and he did it right, for the average cruiser, choosing such a complex and expensive boat for offshore cruising  would be a big mistake.I helped him troubleshoot a lot of it while he was in Fiji.   His boat was full of gear and he was using it as a test bed for the company.  Much of it was overly complex, and totally unnecessary.  Neat boat though.http://www.westmarine.com/CruisingJournals/Randy-Repass  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Buying into yachty bling culture can eat away at your money supply, and shorten your cruise . or postpone it indefinitely.I have been told that the founder of West Marine decided to do a circumnavigation using all West Marine  bling. At every port he had broken gear. He called a meeting of his suppliers in Frisco , where he screamed at them ":My customers are not your guinea pigs."  When people  like Bob Perry keep designing boats without any cruising  experience to go by, the only thing they ( and the Bobetes) have to judge boats and gear by is cosmetics.They don't have a clue about practical function.I was the same, as a beginner. The more one  cruises, the greater one's appreciation for work boat priorities . When one starts to choose experience based priorities, they incur the eye rolling sarcasm of the naive.Einstien summed it up well with  "The trouble with smart people is that they all appear insane to stupid people! "| 32190|32120|2015-02-20 15:22:41|brentswain38|Re: Building time|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Before building Silas Crosby, Steve had sailed  a Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back to BC. Compared to that, he said sailing on a dark night at hull speed, the difference in peace of mind , having steel instead of plastic between him and  any floating debris out there, was huge, especially with family aboard.. When I graduated to steel from my first boat ( ferro cement) the difference in peace of mind was huge.Even if you don''t hit anything,knowing that doing so is no big deal, made cruising infinitely more relaxing, and thus far more enjoyable.Commercially build fiberglass boats are not rugged enough. This I would not call a minor fault that can be corrected latter. James| 32191|32120|2015-02-20 15:31:56|brentswain38|Re: Single handing|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Adequate lifelines become even more important.. On his circumnavigation , Dick  Thulier ran ropes fom near his cockpit, to  a point chest high on his upper shrouds, then back down to the bow pulpit. That gave him chest high lifelines around the mast, which were not in the way of anything.He took them down in port. Lazy jacks holding up lazy bag sail covers, helps a lot.I run a 1/4 inch piece of 1/4 inch 1x19 rigging wire from my cockpit to the bow,  along the side decks, for attaching my safety harness to. That lets me snap on once, and go the length of the boat without having to detach.. Using a length of seat belt for a tether lets me attach and detach before opening the hatch. The hatch simply closes on it, leaving the end inside.How does one set up a large boat for efficient single handling?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :... I regularly charter plastic sailboats, and singlehanded barcelona-menorca (400 miles) for a weeks vacation. Ive done about 12 charters in different boats in 7 years, upto 15 m / 50 ft long (great !)...Hannu Venermo | 32192|32120|2015-02-20 15:55:10|brentswain38|Re: Single handing|When fatigued making a landfall. I have sometimes simply hove to, to take a nap, or sleep for a night .So what if it means an extra day on a passage? In my early 20s , building my first offshore boat, I dreamed of having a lady to share it with. People told me I would meet all kinds of interested ladies, once I got cruising. I answered adds by ladies seeking  a crewing position.Some practically begged me to take them sailing.They all had one thing in common. When invited ,they never showed up. Their excuses got increasingly feeble. Other singlehanders told me they all  had the same experience.Thankfully, I didn't let that stop me from going. Those who refused to  go if they didnt find a lady to share it with,  usually didnt sail anywhere.Those who got "Lucky" ended up getting conned into selling  their boats and spending their lives on the treadmill, paying to real estate, etc.Looking back , I was sure "lucky "to be "unlucky." I wouldn't trade the life I have had for any of the lives of the "Lucky " guys.So prepare to single hand, and if someone wants to share it with you , fine ,but it will be by choice rather than any perceived dependence---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :There are entire books written on the subject :).When you are single handing, fatigue is your enemy.  Being too tired leads to taking risks and making bad decisions.   Personally, I wouldn't single hand a boat without a good reliable autopilot or windvane and a good way to get the anchor on board.    Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How does one set up a large boat for efficient single handling?| 32197|32197|2015-02-21 04:28:41|philxxx|any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach|wanted free plans for sea going email philxxx@... 26 to 28 footer| 32200|32197|2015-02-21 13:13:17|wild_explorer|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach|There are lots of free plans online - just Google it ;)| 32201|32197|2015-02-21 15:53:42|garyhlucas|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach| There are lots of free plans, and worth every penny.  However if you are really cheap you’ll just buy Brent’s book, a set of his plans for a very fair price, and wind up with a better boat at the lowest possible cost.  That’s way better than free plans in my book!   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 4:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach     wanted free plans for sea going email philxxx@... 26 to 28 footer| 32202|32197|2015-02-21 15:58:41|opuspaul|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach|Don't answer directly....look at his address, it is a porn site.The spam seems to be getting worse instead of better.  Isn't there something that can be done?  I hate to complain but none of my other yahoo group sites are getting it.| 32203|32197|2015-02-21 16:57:49|Matt Malone|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach| Maybe our porn spammer has revealed himself.  The lure of metal sail boats was just too great.   It reminds me of a quote:Johnny Cash, he's like President Lincoln or somethin'. I was in the prison band when I first saw him in San Quentin, I was impressed with his ability to take five thousand convicts and steal the show away from a bunch of strippers. That's pretty hard to do. - Merle HaggardBrent should take it as a compliment.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:28:31 +1300Subject: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach   wanted free plans for sea going email philxxx@... 26 to 28 footer | 32204|32197|2015-02-21 17:12:30|Chris Salayka|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach| Joking or serious ???   the xxx is suspicious I’m using some free software at home – Will have to look up the name – it gets rid of the spam – going to do some more looking – it’s easy enough to delete, delete delete delete delete but it gets annoying. Anyone want to cal him and ask him?   E-mail:          philxxx@... Phone:          +64212500428 I constructed the backpack jet tip strap on helicopter...uses propane for fuel... so far it gets me about 5 feet off the ground. I am still testing right now to see if it really works as advertised.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 21 February 2015 15:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach     Maybe our porn spammer has revealed himself.  The lure of metal sail boats was just too great.   It reminds me of a quote: Johnny Cash, he's like President Lincoln or somethin'. I was in the prison band when I first saw him in San Quentin, I was impressed with his ability to take five thousand convicts and steal the show away from a bunch of strippers. That's pretty hard to do. - Merle Haggard Brent should take it as a compliment. Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:28:31 +1300 Subject: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach   wanted free plans for sea going email philxxx@... 26 to 28 footer This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. | 32205|32197|2015-02-21 17:26:44|opuspaul|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach|I looked up the phone number and it is an escort agency.  Maybe this is a new way to attract crew?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered 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li.ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072underline1, #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 div.ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072underline1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 span.ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072yshortcuts1 {font-family:"Verdana", "sans-serif";font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 span.ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072yshortcuts2 {font-family:"Verdana", "sans-serif";font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 span.ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072EmailStyle36 {font-family:"Bookman Old Style", "serif";color:#1F497D;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 .ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 div.ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072Section1 {} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 filtered #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 {font-family:Symbol;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} #ygrps-yiv-2124360562 #ygrps-yiv-2124360562ygrps-yiv-1039738072 ul {margin-bottom:0cm;}Joking or serious ???   the xxx is suspicious I’m using some free software at home – Will have to look up the name – it gets rid of the spam – going to do some more looking – it’s easy enough to delete, delete delete delete delete but it gets annoying. Anyone want to cal him and ask him?  E-mail:          philxxx@... Phone:          +64212500428I constructed the backpack jet tip strap on helicopter...uses propane for fuel... so far it gets me about 5 feet off the ground. I am still testing right now to see if it really works as advertised.  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 21 February 2015 15:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach   Maybe our porn spammer has revealed himself.  The lure of metal sail boats was just too great.   It reminds me of a quote: Johnny Cash, he's like President Lincoln or somethin'. I was in the prison band when I first saw him in San Quentin, I was impressed with his ability to take five thousand convicts and steal the show away from a bunch of strippers. That's pretty hard to do. - Merle Haggard Brent should take it as a compliment. Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:28:31 +1300 Subject: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach  wanted free plans for sea going email philxxx@... 26 to 28 footer This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. | 32206|32110|2015-02-21 23:10:54|theboilerflue|Re: Life Rail sizes|I would use 3/4 for the uprights at the very least. You end up pushing the boat around with them and tying things to them everything they tell you not to in all the yachty books, 1/2" will be flexy when they're nealy three feet long. 3/4 would work for the top but 1 inch is nicer on the hands. It's hard to really notice much of a weight factor on these boats you can really pile them up and they still sail quite well. And over building is much more forgiving in the long run.| 32207|32197|2015-02-21 23:24:26|Chris Salayka|Re: any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach| I did some googling and there is a lot of xxx stuff related to the philxxx email address. Could be compromised. Would it be easy to suspend this address to see if the spam stops.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 21 February 2015 16:27 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach     I looked up the phone number and it is an escort agency.  Maybe this is a new way to attract crew? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Joking or serious ???   the xxx is suspicious I’m using some free software at home – Will have to look up the name – it gets rid of the spam – going to do some more looking – it’s easy enough to delete, delete delete delete delete but it gets annoying. Anyone want to cal him and ask him?   E-mail:          philxxx@... Phone:          +64212500428 I constructed the backpack jet tip strap on helicopter...uses propane for fuel... so far it gets me about 5 feet off the ground. I am still testing right now to see if it really works as advertised.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 21 February 2015 15:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach     Maybe our porn spammer has revealed himself.  The lure of metal sail boats was just too great.   It reminds me of a quote: Johnny Cash, he's like President Lincoln or somethin'. I was in the prison band when I first saw him in San Quentin, I was impressed with his ability to take five thousand convicts and steal the show away from a bunch of strippers. That's pretty hard to do. - Merle Haggard Brent should take it as a compliment. Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:28:31 +1300 Subject: [origamiboats] any one post me free plans how to build a small off shore yach   wanted free plans for sea going email philxxx@... 26 to 28 footer   This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.   This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. | 32208|32120|2015-02-21 23:38:05|theboilerflue|Re: Building time|The advantage is that it's damn easy and fast, also lighter weight and bouncy when you hit stuff and totally fair. I still can't even imagine trying to put together a perfectly fair bunch of frames, have them all lined up perfectly and then proceed to wrench it out of shape by welding a bunch of plates to it and then together without distorting the fuck out of it. I honestly don't know how they do it. Years ago I picked up that Colvin book and read about half way then put it down along with the idea that I'd ever be able to build a steel boat, way beyond my patience level. However these origami boats go together like mechano, that you weld together. Last year we pulled a hull together in three sets of three hours, half hull, other half hull then pulled them together and put the transom in. There's more time in cutting out the sheets and welding the eight angle iron stringers and two bulwark pipes.  The deck and cabin take a bit longer as there's more fitting and then you're on to the same work that you'd be doing for any other steel boat.| 32209|32110|2015-02-22 07:04:31|Robert Jones|Re: Life Rail sizes|I'm with Haiden! On Saturday, February 21, 2015 10:12 PM, "haidan@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I would use 3/4 for the uprights at the very least. You end up pushing the boat around with them and tying things to them everything they tell you not to in all the yachty books, 1/2" will be flexy when they're nealy three feet long. 3/4 would work for the top but 1 inch is nicer on the hands. It's hard to really notice much of a weight factor on these boats you can really pile them up and they still sail quite well. 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li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-938387842 | 32210|32120|2015-02-22 15:07:06|opuspaul|Re: Building time|You can liken it to lipstick on a pig.   The conventional metal boats may look fair when they are done, but they really are not.   I have seen conventional framed steel and aluminum boats with up to 2 inches of epoxy filler on them.  Even the quality boats from the best yards may have an inch or more filler on them in places.   Start pricing out how much money it costs when you start buying filler by the gallon and you will be in for a shock.  I had a tour of  the maxi racer Sorcery in LA years ago.  She was made from thin alloy on closely spaced frames.  I was told by the boatyard owner that it took 30 guys a full month to fair it.http://rbsailing.blogspot.co.nz/2013/01/the-ior-maxis-1980s.htmlI am not a fan of thin skinned metal boats that put too much reliance on their frames for their shape and their strength.  I really favor the origami designs with thicker plate and fewer frames.  I also really like the thick skinned alloy boats like they make in Europe.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The advantage is that it's damn easy and fast, also lighter weight and bouncy when you hit stuff and totally fair. I still can't even imagine trying to put together a perfectly fair bunch of frames, have them all lined up perfectly and then proceed to wrench it out of shape by welding a bunch of plates to it and then together without distorting the fuck out of it. I honestly don't know how they do it. Years ago I picked up that Colvin book and read about half way then put it down along with the idea that I'd ever be able to build a steel boat, way beyond my patience level. However these origami boats go together like mechano, that you weld together. Last year we pulled a hull together in three sets of three hours, half hull, other half hull then pulled them together and put the transom in. There's more time in cutting out the sheets and welding the eight angle iron stringers and two bulwark pipes.  The deck and cabin take a bit longer as there's more fitting and then you're on to the same work that you'd be doing for any other steel boat. | 32212|32212|2015-02-22 18:24:31|phil_sigmund|RM 1200|French fast bluewater,hard chine, twin keel but Plywood. Any opinions  on building it as a modification to BS 36 in origami steel or aluminum? If so would it be any faster than current steel BS designs? Note bulbs on twin keels.Hey a man can daydream, no?| 32213|32212|2015-02-22 19:39:12|Brian Stannard|Re: RM 1200|I think it would be faster. Aluminum though, not steel. On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:24 PM, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote:   French fast bluewater,hard chine, twin keel but Plywood. Any opinions  on building it as a modification to BS 36 in origami steel or aluminum? If so would it be any faster than current steel BS designs? Note bulbs on twin keels.Hey a man can daydream, no? -- CheersBrian | 32214|32120|2015-02-22 22:38:26|Aaron|Cockpit coaming|  What heights and length is an average for the cockpit coming?  What size pipe have people been using on top?Aaron• Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic •               . #ygrps-yiv-289294396 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 -- #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-289294396 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-289294396 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-289294396 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ads { 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#ygrps-yiv-289294396 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-289294396 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-289294396yiv0905457712ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-289294396 | 32216|32212|2015-02-23 07:49:24|Hannu Venermo|Re: RM 1200|Any boat can be "faster". Just ; - add length, by stretching the boat, making it more narrow, slim - add weight to keel - add sail area - accept that the carrying capacity is lessened quite a lot Such a boat is not so desirable as a liveaboard, unless you go to a long (big) boat. You need carrying capacity, to live aboard comfortably long term with household or hotel loads. E.g. to get a fast 40 ft boat, built it stretched 12% to 46 feet. On 23/02/2015 00:24, phil_sigmund@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Any opinions on building it as a modification to BS 36 in origami > steel or aluminum? If so would it be any faster than current steel BS > designs? Note bulbs on twin keels. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32217|32120|2015-02-23 07:51:32|Hannu Venermo|Re: Building time|As I am in Europe.. The metal boats I have seen, here, have all been fair (as far as I could see), but there have not been too many pleasure boats. Workboats, hundreds, yachts .. maybe 10. Yet, the fiberglass boats, in the high end, also have a lot of filler. The basic, cheap, under 500k boats dont. This is 95% of all FBR boats nearby. About 5% are high end. This is done mostly to achieve extremely good loooks, at the cost of vast manhours. The new abramovich yachts was done near here, I now one of the guys who was doing the painting. My point(s): Conventional metal boats can easily be fair. Fiberglass boats can easily use endless fairing, just like metal boats. There is no inherent benefit to one or the other, steel vs fiberglass. Customer expectations and money vs desires are much more important. The benefit on brents method, is ease of building, and emphasis on basic rugged systems. This does not mean conventional fiberglass or metal boats are necessarily bad or inferior. The market * wants * to buy bling, and does not actually go cruising, as a rule. Thus most people are quite happy with their boats. On 22/02/2015 21:07, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I really favor the origami designs with thicker plate and fewer > frames. I also really like the thick skinned alloy boats like they > make in Europe. > > Paul -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32220|32120|2015-02-23 17:19:33|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit coaming|I make them about 12 inches at the forward end and 8 inches at the back.I use half inch stainless  sch40 pipe for the top ( Roughly 5/8th inch ID and just over 3/4 inch OD)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : What heights and length is an average for the cockpit coming?  What size pipe have people been using on top?Aaron• Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic•              . #ygrps-yiv-737294296 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712 -- #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-737294296 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712 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#ygrps-yiv-737294296 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-737294296 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712 #ygrps-yiv-737294296ygrps-yiv-692145090yiv0905457712ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 32221|32120|2015-02-23 17:37:56|brentswain38|Re: Building time|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I remember a 45 ft Brewer design which had several 45 gallon drums of filler on it.I prefer to work for practical people, who want good looking boats which are functional , and sail well, people who aspire to actually go places,not for those who seek stratus symbols, which keep them on the treadmill for life. Steel has a HUGE  safety advantage when cruising offshore , with all the floating debris out there.It thus has a HUGE  peace of mind advantage over plastic.It also has a HUGE  cost and time  advantage compared to new plastic boats. For the average low budget cruiser, seeking safety and peace of mind , plastic boats are definitely inferior.You are right on one point. For  a boat which rarely leaves the marina ,and give their owners bragging rights on the huge amount of money thrown at them, without them actually going anywhere, plastic definitely does have the advantage.  For providing excuses for never going anywhere, plastic is far ahead.As I am in Europe.. The metal boats I have seen, here, have all been fair (as far as I could see), but there have not been too many pleasure boats. Workboats, hundreds, yachts .. maybe 10. Yet, the fiberglass boats, in the high end, also have a lot of filler. The basic, cheap, under 500k boats dont. This is 95% of all FBR boats nearby. About 5% are high end. This is done mostly to achieve extremely good loooks, at the cost of vast manhours. The new abramovich yachts was done near here, I now one of the guys who was doing the painting. My point(s): Conventional metal boats can easily be fair. Fiberglass boats can easily use endless fairing, just like metal boats. There is no inherent benefit to one or the other, steel vs fiberglass. Customer expectations and money vs desires are much more important. The benefit on brents method, is ease of building, and emphasis on basic rugged systems. This does not mean conventional fiberglass or metal boats are necessarily bad or inferior. The market * wants * to buy bling, and does not actually go cruising, as a rule. Thus most people are quite happy with their boats. On 22/02/2015 21:07, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I really favor the origami designs with thicker plate and fewer > frames. I also really like the thick skinned alloy boats like they > make in Europe. > > Paul -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32222|32120|2015-02-23 17:45:47|brentswain38|Re: Building time|With filler, you have to pamper the boat , to avoid knocking the filler off, which undermines  the reason for going steel in the first place.Origami lets you build the hull so fair it, that it needs no filler.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I remember a 45 ft Brewer design which had several 45 gallon drums of filler on it.I prefer to work for practical people, who want good looking boats which are functional , and sail well, people who aspire to actually go places,not for those who seek stratus symbols, which keep them on the treadmill for life. Steel has a HUGE  safety advantage when cruising offshore , with all the floating debris out there.It thus has a HUGE  peace of mind advantage over plastic.It also has a HUGE  cost and time  advantage compared to new plastic boats. For the average low budget cruiser, seeking safety and peace of mind , plastic boats are definitely inferior.You are right on one point. For  a boat which rarely leaves the marina ,and give their owners bragging rights on the huge amount of money thrown at them, without them actually going anywhere, plastic definitely does have the advantage.  For providing excuses for never going anywhere, plastic is far ahead.As I am in Europe.. The metal boats I have seen, here, have all been fair (as far as I could see), but there have not been too many pleasure boats. Workboats, hundreds, yachts .. maybe 10. Yet, the fiberglass boats, in the high end, also have a lot of filler. The basic, cheap, under 500k boats dont. This is 95% of all FBR boats nearby. About 5% are high end. This is done mostly to achieve extremely good loooks, at the cost of vast manhours. The new abramovich yachts was done near here, I now one of the guys who was doing the painting. My point(s): Conventional metal boats can easily be fair. Fiberglass boats can easily use endless fairing, just like metal boats. There is no inherent benefit to one or the other, steel vs fiberglass. Customer expectations and money vs desires are much more important. The benefit on brents method, is ease of building, and emphasis on basic rugged systems. This does not mean conventional fiberglass or metal boats are necessarily bad or inferior. The market * wants * to buy bling, and does not actually go cruising, as a rule. Thus most people are quite happy with their boats. On 22/02/2015 21:07, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I really favor the origami designs with thicker plate and fewer > frames. I also really like the thick skinned alloy boats like they > make in Europe. > > Paul -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32225|32225|2015-02-24 02:47:26|Alex Bar|Yacht looking|You all say that the origami method is incredible for the final fairy looking. But what about the marks of the welding from inside to outside? Stringers for instance.Or keel reinforcement distortions below water line.I think you have to use filler if you want a final result like fiberglass yachts.Alex| 32227|32225|2015-02-24 09:05:13|James Pronk|Re: Yacht looking|It's easy to grind down the ridges above the water line, from welding in stringers and such, with either a cup wheel or a frapper disc. The fish don't mind the ridges below the water line ;-)James| 32228|32225|2015-02-24 09:35:28|j fisher|Re: Yacht looking|The first time I saw a finished Origami boat I was quite surprised how good it looked.  Sitting on the dock you would have been hard pressed to tell it was built by the owner.  It looked quite good and was fair with the welds ground smooth.  I am amazed at the damage I see on charter boats in BVI.  Strap marks in the hull from lifting or damage from being put on land in cradles during hurricane season.  The hulls are no longer fair.  Also all the gouges and scratches along the rub rails from docks and other boats.  I can see why they change the boats out every 3 to 5 years. On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   You all say that the origami method is incredible for the final fairy looking. But what about the marks of the welding from inside to outside? Stringers for instance.Or keel reinforcement distortions below water line.I think you have to use filler if you want a final result like fiberglass yachts.Alex | 32229|32225|2015-02-24 13:24:00|garyhlucas|Re: Yacht looking| I’ve seen one of Brent’s 36’ boats and sailed on her.  Sitting at the dock the hull was beautifully fair, at first I thought it was a fiberglass boat.  Two things account for the fairness.  Pulling the hull together actually forces the metal in a compound curvature, not just cylindrical. Second, since the plates are much thick than other boats the welds don’t distort the plate nearly as much.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 2:47 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Yacht looking     You all say that the origami method is incredible for the final fairy looking. But what about the marks of the welding from inside to outside? Stringers for instance. Or keel reinforcement distortions below water line.I think you have to use filler if you want a final result like fiberglass yachts.Alex| 32230|32225|2015-02-24 14:00:08|kingsknight4life|Re: Yacht looking|This is what I've done as per Brent's recommendations.| 32233|32225|2015-02-24 15:19:39|brentswain38|Re: Yacht looking|The stringer welds leave a slight ridge on the outside of the hull plate. It takes about 15 minutes to grind  them all off. Just run your fingers over them, and grind till you cant feel them with your eyes closed. Don't overgrind them. Ditto the bottom of the anchor well, and where the transom meets the  cockpit. Best do it soon in the project, before you lose the marks of where these welds are . They get hard to find later.   Sadly I see people throwing all kinds of money and time at a boat to a make it look good, then skipping this brief task.| 32234|32225|2015-02-24 16:17:03|opuspaul|Re: Yacht looking|The only boats with fair and beautiful topsides are the boats that don't get used.  I came out of a haulout in Fiji with new paint on the topsides and within one week a local fishing boat came alongside with no fenders and nails sticking out....it took them about 3 seconds to cut a gouge right through the paint about 6 feet long.    There is no point in screaming or getting angry.....they are poor people who don't understand and it will probably happen again.   The guys who spend 20k more on a high gloss polyurethane paint job would have a coronary.   What can you do.....| 32236|32236|2015-02-24 22:34:24|magicod|Anchor Winch Materials List|I've been through the files section, looking for a materials list for Brent's anchor winch.  I have his latest book and can probably figure out much of what's needed, but I live on the Sunshine Coast and I will have to make a special trip to Vancouver to find appropriate SS scrap, so, if possible, I want to get it all in the one trip.Any assistance will be appreciated.Stephen| 32239|32225|2015-02-25 04:24:01|Alex Bar|Re: Yacht looking|Anyway, you can do it below the water line too, can't you? I mean is it possible to have a totally fair hull?alex2015-02-24 15:05 GMT+01:00 James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] :   It's easy to grind down the ridges above the water line, from welding in stringers and such, with either a cup wheel or a frapper disc. The fish don't mind the ridges below the water line ;-)James | 32240|32225|2015-02-25 04:31:35|Alex Bar|Re: Yacht looking|What is the difference in hull thikness between a 31' and a 40' footer? What is the minimum thikness to avoid welding distortions?alex2015-02-24 19:19 GMT+01:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :   I’ve seen one of Brent’s 36’ boats and sailed on her.  Sitting at the dock the hull was beautifully fair, at first I thought it was a fiberglass boat.  Two things account for the fairness.  Pulling the hull together actually forces the metal in a compound curvature, not just cylindrical. Second, since the plates are much thick than other boats the welds don’t distort the plate nearly as much.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 2:47 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Yacht looking     You all say that the origami method is incredible for the final fairy looking. But what about the marks of the welding from inside to outside? Stringers for instance. Or keel reinforcement distortions below water line.I think you have to use filler if you want a final result like fiberglass yachts.Alex | 32241|32225|2015-02-25 05:14:06|Hannu Venermo|Re: Yacht looking|Agree 100%. On 24/02/2015 19:19, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I’ve seen one of Brent’s 36’ boats and sailed on her. Sitting at the > dock the hull was beautifully fair, at first I thought it was a > fiberglass boat. Two things account for the fairness. Pulling the > hull together actually forces the metal in a compound curvature, not > just cylindrical. Second, since the plates are much thick than other > boats the welds don’t distort the plate nearly as much. > Gary H. Lucas -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32242|32225|2015-02-25 05:18:41|Hannu Venermo|Re: Yacht looking|Brents recommendations have worked for 30 years. The short answer, as per Brents recommendations. Otoh.. There is no minimum thickness as such. Any metal can be welded fair, including a theoretical 1 mm hull, if I was engaged to do such. It just gets progressively harder, and requires different tools and techniques. Fwiw.. A 2mm hull would look good done inside with tig. Slow, and very controlled process. I would do 1-3 mm with co2 laser, upside down or hung on a rotatable lengthwise jig. Neither would be practical, as You could not walk on it. On 25/02/2015 10:31, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > What is the difference in hull thikness between a 31' and a 40' > footer? What is the minimum thikness to avoid welding distortions? > alex > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32245|32225|2015-02-25 18:30:00|brentswain38|Re: Yacht looking|Both use the same plate thickness,altho 4mm would be better for the 31 if it were available. We use 3/16th for the hull and skeg. 11guage for the decks, cabin,cockpit, wheelhouse and rudder, 1/4 inch for the keel sides and 1/2 inch for the bottom and leading edge of the single keel.Twin keels use solid shaft for the leading edge.| 32248|32225|2015-02-26 04:09:56|Alex Bar|Re: Yacht looking|There is quite a bit of difference between 3/16 (nearly 5 mm) and 4 mm. I wander in terms of distortion and final fairy looking what is the best. 11 gouges for deck is much thinner, what happen to the deck in terms of distortions?And if I use 4 mm for deck, cockpit and pilot house too, would it be too heavy?alex2015-02-26 0:30 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Both use the same plate thickness,altho 4mm would be better for the 31 if it were available. We use 3/16th for the hull and skeg. 11guage for the decks, cabin,cockpit, wheelhouse and rudder, 1/4 inch for the keel sides and 1/2 inch for the bottom and leading edge of the single keel.Twin keels use solid shaft for the leading edge. | 32251|32225|2015-02-26 10:10:42|wild_explorer|Re: Yacht looking|The severity of distortion is all about how YOU weld it ;). It is pretty easy to distort even 1/2" plate. You can weld 11ga with stick electrode and proper electrode/technique/sequence with minimal distortion.Follow Brent's recommendations. He already calculated maximum possible plate thickness and weight distribution for his boats.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :There is quite a bit of difference between 3/16 (nearly 5 mm) and 4 mm. I wander in terms of distortion and final fairy looking what is the best. 11 gouges for deck is much thinner, what happen to the deck in terms of distortions?And if I use 4 mm for deck, cockpit and pilot house too, would it be too heavy?alex| 32254|32236|2015-02-26 15:41:16|Stephen Wandling|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List| OK, maybe I need to ask the question in another way? After a few agonizing hours trying to view Photos and search messages (Yahoo is such a broken system!), I have come up with the list below.  For clarification, this is not for a steel boat, but will go on my Haida 26, hence the need for bolt down feet plates on the legs.  1/8" for the drum plates seems a bit thin, but 'appears' to be what others use.  If you see something that is 'wrong' on my list, please let me know.  I can post this in the files section, but I prefer to have you evaluate it first. Anchor Winch Materials List Quantity Material Width Length Drum side plates 2 1/8" SS plate 12" 12'' Drum core 1 2'' sch 40 pipe 18" Drum axle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe   24" Drum axle mounts 1 1 1/4'' sch 40 SS pipe 6" Ratchet wheel 1 1/2'' SS plate 10" 10" Pawls & pawl mounts 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar   12'' Pawl axles 1 1/2" SS round bar 6" Winch handle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe   24" Winch base 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe   48" Winch base spacer 1 3/4'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Winch base feet plates 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar   24"           Total quantities: Total   1'' sch 40 SS pipe   96" Total   1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar   36" Thanks, Stephen On 24/02/2015 7:34 PM, swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I've been through the files section, looking for a materials list for Brent's anchor winch.  I have his latest book and can probably figure out much of what's needed, but I live on the Sunshine Coast and I will have to make a special trip to Vancouver to find appropriate SS scrap, so, if possible, I want to get it all in the one trip. Any assistance will be appreciated. Stephen | 32265|32225|2015-02-27 17:50:11|brentswain38|Re: Yacht looking|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes 4mm is far more prone to distortion but nowhere near as bad as 11 gauge.  With the decks,  11 gauge is good , but the trick is to keep the welds small, especially on stringers and beams . 1/8th inch 6011 works well for that. With  the  number of  stiffeners, the distances between  them is adequately short to prevent distortion. Around doubler plates for the mooring bitts, a flatbar on edge about an inch ouside the doubler plate, stops distortion from going any further.4mm would be to heavy for decks, cockpit, cabin or pilothouse.There is quite a bit of difference between 3/16 (nearly 5 mm) and 4 mm. I wander in terms of distortion and final fairy looking what is the best. 11 gouges for deck is much thinner, what happen to the deck in terms of distortions?And if I use 4 mm for deck, cockpit and pilot house too, would it be too heavy?alex2015-02-26 0:30 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  Both use the same plate thickness,altho 4mm would be better for the 31 if it were available. We use 3/16th for the hull and skeg. 11guage for the decks, cabin,cockpit, wheelhouse and rudder, 1/4 inch for the keel sides and 1/2 inch for the bottom and leading edge of the single keel.Twin keels use solid shaft for the leading edge.| 32266|32236|2015-02-27 18:00:26|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Looks good , but I use 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle.Looks like roughly 40 inches of 1 inch sch 40 pipe for the winch, and 16 inches of 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle and bearings. 2- 12 inch diameter 1/8th inch plates for the drum ends,. If they oil can slightly , you just zip cut a slice out of one side and weld it  up again after  pulling  the edges of the slice togetherThe spacer on the front of the frame becomes the bearing for one of the pawls, the other is a piece of half inch rod  on the handle.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : OK, maybe I need to ask the question in another way? After a few agonizing hours trying to view Photos and search messages (Yahoo is such a broken system!), I have come up with the list below.  For clarification, this is not for a steel boat, but will go on my Haida 26, hence the need for bolt down feet plates on the legs.  1/8" for the drum plates seems a bit thin, but 'appears' to be what others use.  If you see something that is 'wrong' on my list, please let me know.  I can post this in the files section, but I prefer to have you evaluate it first. Anchor Winch Materials ListQuantityMaterialWidthLengthDrum side plates21/8" SS plate12"12''Drum core12'' sch 40 pipe18"Drum axle11'' sch 40 SS pipe 24"Drum axle mounts11 1/4'' sch 40 SS pipe6"Ratchet wheel11/2'' SS plate10"10"Pawls & pawl mounts11/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 12''Pawl axles11/2" SS round bar6"Winch handle11'' sch 40 SS pipe 24"Winch base11'' sch 40 SS pipe 48"Winch base spacer13/4'' sch 40 SS pipe24"Winch base feet plates11/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 24"     Total quantities:Total 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 96"Total 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 36" Thanks, Stephen On 24/02/2015 7:34 PM, swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote: I've been through the files section, looking for a materials list for Brent's anchor winch.  I have his latest book and can probably figure out much of what's needed, but I live on the Sunshine Coast and I will have to make a special trip to Vancouver to find appropriate SS scrap, so, if possible, I want to get it all in the one trip. Any assistance will be appreciated. Stephen | 32276|32236|2015-02-28 17:34:09|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Forgot about the shaft . You will need another 2 ft of 1 inch sch 40 pipe.| 32277|32236|2015-02-28 20:56:04|Stephen Wandling|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Do you use two spacers, front and back, and what diameter are they? I guessed at 3/4". On 27/02/2015 3:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Looks good , but I use 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle. > Looks like roughly 40 inches of 1 inch sch 40 pipe for the winch, and 16 inches of 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle and bearings. 2- 12 inch diameter 1/8th inch plates for the drum ends,. If they oil can slightly , you just zip cut a slice out of one side and weld it up again after pulling the edges of the slice together > The spacer on the front of the frame becomes the bearing for one of the pawls, the other is a piece of half inch rod on the handle. > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > OK, maybe I need to ask the question in another way? > > After a few agonizing hours trying to view Photos and search messages (Yahoo is such a broken system!), I have come up with the list below. For clarification, this is not for a steel boat, but will go on my Haida 26, hence the need for bolt down feet plates on the legs. 1/8" for the drum plates seems a bit thin, but 'appears' to be what others use. If you see something that is 'wrong' on my list, please let me know. I can post this in the files section, but I prefer to have you evaluate it first. > > Anchor Winch Materials List > > > > > > > > > Quantity Material Width Length Drum side plates 2 1/8" SS plate 12" 12'' Drum core 1 2'' sch 40 pipe > 18" Drum axle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Drum axle mounts 1 1 1/4'' sch 40 SS pipe > 6" Ratchet wheel 1 1/2'' SS plate 10" 10" Pawls& pawl mounts 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 12'' Pawl axles 1 1/2" SS round bar > 6" Winch handle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Winch base 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 48" Winch base spacer 1 3/4'' sch 40 SS pipe > 24" Winch base feet plates 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 24" > > > > > Total quantities: > > > > > > > > > Total 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 96" Total 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 36" > > Thanks, > Stephen > > On 24/02/2015 7:34 PM, swandling@... mailto:swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote: I've been through the files section, looking for a materials list for Brent's anchor winch. I have his latest book and can probably figure out much of what's needed, but I live on the Sunshine Coast and I will have to make a special trip to Vancouver to find appropriate SS scrap, so, if possible, I want to get it all in the one trip. > > Any assistance will be appreciated. > > Stephen > > > > | 32282|32236|2015-03-01 16:42:17|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Yes two,  front and back, about 3/4 sch 40 pipe.While you are in Vancouver you could look for material for higher stanchions, stainless woodstove and chimney, , etc.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Do you use two spacers, front and back, and what diameter are they? I guessed at 3/4". On 27/02/2015 3:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Looks good , but I use 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle. > Looks like roughly 40 inches of 1 inch sch 40 pipe for the winch, and 16 inches of 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle and bearings. 2- 12 inch diameter 1/8th inch plates for the drum ends,. If they oil can slightly , you just zip cut a slice out of one side and weld it up again after pulling the edges of the slice together > The spacer on the front of the frame becomes the bearing for one of the pawls, the other is a piece of half inch rod on the handle. > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > OK, maybe I need to ask the question in another way? > > After a few agonizing hours trying to view Photos and search messages (Yahoo is such a broken system!), I have come up with the list below. For clarification, this is not for a steel boat, but will go on my Haida 26, hence the need for bolt down feet plates on the legs. 1/8" for the drum plates seems a bit thin, but 'appears' to be what others use. If you see something that is 'wrong' on my list, please let me know. I can post this in the files section, but I prefer to have you evaluate it first. > > Anchor Winch Materials List > > > > > > > > > Quantity Material Width Length Drum side plates 2 1/8" SS plate 12" 12'' Drum core 1 2'' sch 40 pipe > 18" Drum axle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Drum axle mounts 1 1 1/4'' sch 40 SS pipe > 6" Ratchet wheel 1 1/2'' SS plate 10" 10" Pawls& pawl mounts 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 12'' Pawl axles 1 1/2" SS round bar > 6" Winch handle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Winch base 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 48" Winch base spacer 1 3/4'' sch 40 SS pipe > 24" Winch base feet plates 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 24" > > > > > Total quantities: > > > > > > > > > Total 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 96" Total 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 36" > > Thanks, > Stephen > > On 24/02/2015 7:34 PM, swandling@... mailto:swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote: I've been through the files section, looking for a materials list for Brent's anchor winch. I have his latest book and can probably figure out much of what's needed, but I live on the Sunshine Coast and I will have to make a special trip to Vancouver to find appropriate SS scrap, so, if possible, I want to get it all in the one trip. > > Any assistance will be appreciated. > > Stephen > > > > | 32293|16860|2015-03-02 17:28:28|brentswain38|Spam|Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just keep deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon.| 32294|32236|2015-03-02 17:31:32|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|These brace pipes  limit how much you can put on your drum. For that reason, it is best to have them slightly closer to the centre of the drum than the deck is. That way you don't end up with chain from an over filled winch ,grinding on your deck paint, under the drum.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes two,  front and back, about 3/4 sch 40 pipe.While you are in Vancouver you could look for material for higher stanchions, stainless woodstove and chimney, , etc.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Do you use two spacers, front and back, and what diameter are they? I guessed at 3/4". On 27/02/2015 3:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Looks good , but I use 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle. > Looks like roughly 40 inches of 1 inch sch 40 pipe for the winch, and 16 inches of 1 1/4 sch 40 for the handle and bearings. 2- 12 inch diameter 1/8th inch plates for the drum ends,. If they oil can slightly , you just zip cut a slice out of one side and weld it up again after pulling the edges of the slice together > The spacer on the front of the frame becomes the bearing for one of the pawls, the other is a piece of half inch rod on the handle. > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > OK, maybe I need to ask the question in another way? > > After a few agonizing hours trying to view Photos and search messages (Yahoo is such a broken system!), I have come up with the list below. For clarification, this is not for a steel boat, but will go on my Haida 26, hence the need for bolt down feet plates on the legs. 1/8" for the drum plates seems a bit thin, but 'appears' to be what others use. If you see something that is 'wrong' on my list, please let me know. I can post this in the files section, but I prefer to have you evaluate it first. > > Anchor Winch Materials List > > > > > > > > > Quantity Material Width Length Drum side plates 2 1/8" SS plate 12" 12'' Drum core 1 2'' sch 40 pipe > 18" Drum axle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Drum axle mounts 1 1 1/4'' sch 40 SS pipe > 6" Ratchet wheel 1 1/2'' SS plate 10" 10" Pawls& pawl mounts 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 12'' Pawl axles 1 1/2" SS round bar > 6" Winch handle 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 24" Winch base 1 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 48" Winch base spacer 1 3/4'' sch 40 SS pipe > 24" Winch base feet plates 1 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 24" > > > > > Total quantities: > > > > > > > > > Total 1'' sch 40 SS pipe 96" Total 1/2" 1 1/4" SS flat bar 36" > > Thanks, > Stephen > > On 24/02/2015 7:34 PM, swandling@... mailto:swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote: I've been through the files section, looking for a materials list for Brent's anchor winch. I have his latest book and can probably figure out much of what's needed, but I live on the Sunshine Coast and I will have to make a special trip to Vancouver to find appropriate SS scrap, so, if possible, I want to get it all in the one trip. > > Any assistance will be appreciated. > > Stephen > > > > | 32296|16860|2015-03-02 20:46:06|Chris Salayka|Re: Spam|I am using Cloudmark DesktopOne basic which is free and it works very well in removing the spam to a spam folder it creates – so far it is working on both my desktop and laptop with windows 7. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 02 March 2015 16:28 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Spam Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just keep deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 32297|16860|2015-03-02 20:56:21|Stephen Wandling|Re: Spam|Yes, I can do the same in Thunderbird, with only 3 lines. Just reject all emails from: @... @... @... On 02/03/2015 5:46 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I am using Cloudmark DesktopOne basic which is free and it works very well > in removing the spam to a spam folder it creates – so far it is working on > both my desktop and laptop with windows 7. > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: 02 March 2015 16:28 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Spam > > > > > > Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just keep > deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon. > > > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 32298|16860|2015-03-02 22:58:29|Chris Salayka|Re: Spam|I had trouble getting Outlook to do that – I think that would work but now Cloudmark does other spam as well. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 02 March 2015 19:56 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spam Yes, I can do the same in Thunderbird, with only 3 lines. Just reject all emails from: @... @... @... On 02/03/2015 5:46 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I am using Cloudmark DesktopOne basic which is free and it works very well > in removing the spam to a spam folder it creates – so far it is working on > both my desktop and laptop with windows 7. > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: 02 March 2015 16:28 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Spam > > > > > > Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just keep > deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon. > > > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 32299|16860|2015-03-03 00:32:43|Stephen Wandling|Re: Spam|Actually, I wasn't totally clear on setting up the Thunderbird to put things in the Trash. You don't do it through a spam filter Go to Tools/Message Filters. Create a new filter named Origami Spam (or whatever). Set the first column to From and the second to Contains and then put one of the email fragments from my message below into the third. Press the plus button and a new line is created. Then in the lower section, select Move Message To and then select Trash in the next drop down menu. Press OK. I haven't used Outlook in 20 years, so I don't know if it has a similar message filter capability. On 02/03/2015 7:58 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I had trouble getting Outlook to do that – I think that would work but now > Cloudmark does other spam as well. > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: 02 March 2015 19:56 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spam > > > > > > Yes, I can do the same in Thunderbird, with only 3 lines. Just reject > all emails from: > > @... > @... > @... > > On 02/03/2015 5:46 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... [origamiboats] > wrote: > >> I am using Cloudmark DesktopOne basic which is free and it works very well >> in removing the spam to a spam folder it creates – so far it is working on >> both my desktop and laptop with windows 7. >> >> >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >> Sent: 02 March 2015 16:28 >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [origamiboats] Spam >> >> >> >> >> >> Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just keep >> deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 32300|16860|2015-03-03 00:39:59|Stephen Wandling|Re: Spam|I left out an important step. In Thunderbird, when setting up a message filter, at the top you can select: "Matches all of the following", or "Matches any of the following". You want to select "Matches any of the following". On 02/03/2015 9:32 PM, Stephen Wandling wrote: > Actually, I wasn't totally clear on setting up the Thunderbird to put > things in the Trash. You don't do it through a spam filter > > Go to Tools/Message Filters. Create a new filter named Origami Spam > (or whatever). Set the first column to From and the second to > Contains and then put one of the email fragments from my message below > into the third. Press the plus button and a new line is created. > > Then in the lower section, select Move Message To and then select > Trash in the next drop down menu. Press OK. > > I haven't used Outlook in 20 years, so I don't know if it has a > similar message filter capability. > > On 02/03/2015 7:58 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> I had trouble getting Outlook to do that – I think that would work >> but now >> Cloudmark does other spam as well. >> >> >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >> Sent: 02 March 2015 19:56 >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spam >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, I can do the same in Thunderbird, with only 3 lines. Just reject >> all emails from: >> >> @... >> @... >> @... >> >> On 02/03/2015 5:46 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... [origamiboats] >> wrote: >>> I am using Cloudmark DesktopOne basic which is free and it works >>> very well >>> in removing the spam to a spam folder it creates – so far it is >>> working on >>> both my desktop and laptop with windows 7. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >>> Sent: 02 March 2015 16:28 >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Spam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just >>> keep >>> deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> | 32301|16860|2015-03-03 00:54:46|Chris Salayka|Re: Spam|Yes, Outlook is similar but I didn’t think to use the phrases the way you did – I will try it tomorrow. The good thing about cloudmark is you don’t have to do anything but check the spam folder once and a while. Knowing how to create a filter is useful though. And thanks for the tip. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 02 March 2015 23:40 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spam I left out an important step. In Thunderbird, when setting up a message filter, at the top you can select: "Matches all of the following", or "Matches any of the following". You want to select "Matches any of the following". On 02/03/2015 9:32 PM, Stephen Wandling wrote: > Actually, I wasn't totally clear on setting up the Thunderbird to put > things in the Trash. You don't do it through a spam filter > > Go to Tools/Message Filters. Create a new filter named Origami Spam > (or whatever). Set the first column to From and the second to > Contains and then put one of the email fragments from my message below > into the third. Press the plus button and a new line is created. > > Then in the lower section, select Move Message To and then select > Trash in the next drop down menu. Press OK. > > I haven't used Outlook in 20 years, so I don't know if it has a > similar message filter capability. > > On 02/03/2015 7:58 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> I had trouble getting Outlook to do that – I think that would work >> but now >> Cloudmark does other spam as well. >> >> >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >> Sent: 02 March 2015 19:56 >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spam >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, I can do the same in Thunderbird, with only 3 lines. Just reject >> all emails from: >> >> @... >> @... >> @... >> >> On 02/03/2015 5:46 PM, 'Chris Salayka' kurlidog@... [origamiboats] >> wrote: >>> I am using Cloudmark DesktopOne basic which is free and it works >>> very well >>> in removing the spam to a spam folder it creates – so far it is >>> working on >>> both my desktop and laptop with windows 7. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >>> Sent: 02 March 2015 16:28 >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Spam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Seems we may be soon making progress on the spam problem. I'll just >>> keep >>> deleting them for now. May have some help with that soon. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 32322|32322|2015-03-06 15:58:19|brentswain38|Fibreglass Projects|If you are planing a fibreglass project ,perhaos you should consider using the fibreglass boats wasting away on beaches. There is one with several holes in it on a beach near me, at the moment.  Cutting panels out of them leaves you with a finished gel coat surface to piece your project out of ,whether it be a dodger,  a seat,outboard well, icebox, etc. Piecing the corners together  saves a  lot of time and grinding, compared to building the works from scratch out of all new material.It also reduces the cost of materials.Taking a wire brush on an angle grinder to the rough inside of the panels, wil probably give you a better bond. Laying all add ons up from the inside leaves you little smoothing to do| 32331|16860|2015-03-08 01:30:23|northcanoe|Re: Spam|I'm on it too, am researching how "Jeff Garten" and "Isabel Ice" are able to make postings to the group, yet are not at all members here. They've found a loop hole. If someone knows how they've done it, and how we can block it, please let me know!Alex| 32332|16860|2015-03-08 01:44:06|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Spam|The only method I have heard of involves wiping everyone out from membership, changing all passwords that may be involved in the process and inviting bone fide members to re-subscribe.  Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 7:30 AM, northcanoe@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I'm on it too, am researching how "Jeff Garten" and "Isabel Ice" are able to make postings to the group, yet are not at all members here. They've found a loop hole. If someone knows how they've done it, and how we can block it, please let me know!Alex | 32333|16860|2015-03-08 08:23:19|James Pronk|Re: Spam|The one thing I've noticed was that all the spam senders have origamiboat in there name?James| 32334|16860|2015-03-08 15:18:21|brentswain38|Re: Spam|Man ,its great to find no spams here. Thanks. I still suspect the spammers of being friends of Bob Perry. That looks like something Bob and the Bobettes would do, given that ,on another site ,Perry responded to a steel boat question by posting pictures of little boys.( with appearant full suport of the Bobettes)Who in their right mind would employ such a creep, and pay him money.| 32336|16860|2015-03-08 16:19:20|Brian Stannard|Re: Spam|Except when the same posts are sent to other groups. On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 5:23 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The one thing I've noticed was that all the spam senders have origamiboat in there name?James -- CheersBrian | 32337|16860|2015-03-08 17:35:03|Magicod|Re: Spam|What other groups are receiving this same spam? On 08/03/2015 1:19 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Except when the same posts are sent to other groups. > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 5:23 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] > wrote: > > >> >> The one thing I've noticed was that all the spam senders have origamiboat >> in there name? >> James >> >> >> >> > > > | 32338|16860|2015-03-08 18:24:03|Brian Stannard|Re: Spam|Catalina 30 was but solved it somehow. Tylercraft was also. For a while I received the same spam posts minutes apart from several groups. On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Magicod swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote:   What other groups are receiving this same spam? On 08/03/2015 1:19 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Except when the same posts are sent to other groups. > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 5:23 AM, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] > wrote: > > >> >> The one thing I've noticed was that all the spam senders have origamiboat >> in there name? >> James >> >> >> >> > > > -- CheersBrian | 32342|32342|2015-03-09 13:13:37|wild_explorer|Re: Spam|Yep, it requires more work for moderator and messages delay, but it is only way to stop spam at the beginning from spreading. Yahoo gave moderators tools, but very few people use it ;)Discussing vulnerabilities of the group online gives more ideas to spammers.Even 20 years ago it was possible to do with emails headers what article describes - just on different level. Do not try to fight spammers from "technical point of view" - they have more money and resources. Spammers use moderators' "inconvenience" excuse which allows them to post spam. So, having open group requires more work from moderator ;(Openness of Origamiboats group (ability to read messages without being a member) is what sparked my interest in this design. I have no interest to become a member of some group before I can read messages and decide if I am interested in what that group discuss. Many peoples may read this group for month/years before becoming a member. Approving a new member will not stop information about Origamiboats to be available to public.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Tylercraft Group was an open site like yours. I changed this so I have to approve all new members and approve all group messages before being placed on the group site.| 32343|16860|2015-03-09 20:43:15|brentswain38|Re: Spam|Someone mentioned two other groups , don't know which they are.| 32344|16860|2015-03-09 21:50:18|Brian Stannard|Re: Spam|Slocum 43 group and Tylercraft group are 2 that were spammed. Catalina 30 as well.  On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 5:43 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Someone mentioned two other groups , don't know which they are. -- CheersBrian | 32345|32345|2015-03-12 17:38:36|Stephen Wandling|Gebo Portlight|I'm putting a 'Swain' pilothouse on a Haida 26. It will start as more of a dodger, but eventually I may close it in. What I have been seeking is an opening port for the middle front section. I found a Gebo aluminum framed one on Craigslist for $70, new, but it has tinted acrylic glazing and I want clear. My plastics guy here in Roberts Creek, who's also a sailor, says that these are almost impossible to reglaze, so I'm back on the search. If anyone has, or knows someone who has, a suitable opening port, I would be pleased to hear about it. If there is some commercial source that has them under $100 or thereabouts, I would be interested in knowing that as well. Thanks, Stephen| 32346|32345|2015-03-12 18:59:43|brentswain38|Re: Gebo Portlight|What dimensions?| 32347|32345|2015-03-12 20:23:02|Stephen Wandling|Re: Gebo Portlight|The pilothouse isn't built yet, so there is some leeway, but the centre panel will be about 11" high by about 22" wide. So, something that will fit in that space and provides a decent field of view should work. Clear of course. 6x12, 7x16, 8x18? Bigger is good. I'm not too fussy about the materials, and the house will be 1/2" ply, but of course can be firred out a bit on the inside to accommodate various depths of mounting. Stephen On 12/03/2015 3:59 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > What dimensions? > | 32348|31984|2015-03-13 05:44:35|jeagle999|Re: aluminum 36|I am I am interested in what you found out, so far about building a boat I read the post but not much information!| 32349|31984|2015-03-13 17:49:22|brentswain38|Re: aluminum 36|What information do you seek?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I amI am interested in what you found out, so far about building a boat I read the post but not much information!| 32350|32350|2015-03-15 13:50:47|Stephen Wandling|Building a bilge pump|The Haida came complete with a non-functioning Whale Gusher 10, the cast aluminum model, which hadn't worked in years. It was not only full of junk, but it was plagued with massive corrosion. And, it was a bulkhead version, meaning that if you ever sucked crap into it, effecting the valves, you had to extract the pump from behind the bulkhead, which was not an easy task. Surface mount is the only way to go. I want to build a SS pump. There are a few things I could salvage from this pump, and the repair kit for it costs $68 including taxes, from Steveston Marine. But, if there are other pumps that have cheaper repair kits, then I would probably build one to suit them. If you know of a suitable repair kit, that's cheap, please let me know. Thanks, Stephen| 32351|32350|2015-03-15 16:44:24|brentswain38|Re: Building a bilge pump|I have made check valves for pumps out of inner tube. There is a 4 ich brake diaphragm  truck supplies have, which may fit that pump as a diaphragm. A bit on the stiff side , but they are cheap and super tough. Wouldn't cost much to try one .| 32352|32350|2015-03-15 17:02:00|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Building a bilge pump|For pumping debris (what happens in any case of real emergency) the pump should be forgiving, it should be BIG, simple, and best be placed to enable quite relaxed pumping by hand for hours - or days, for You want to keep her afloat off shore, under any fuc**d up circumstances, and this (keeping her afloat) works best when giving the singlehander/small crew some additional time to try to reduce the amount of saltwater You take on between two sets of pumping.ALL of the pump's parts should mandatory withstand diesel, ATF/transmission-oil, gasoline, probably two-stroke mix as well, olive oil (or what other sort You used to carry in the now submerged pantry storage), glycol from coolants, vodka, absinth, or whiskey, depending on particular provision preferences ... and whatever else the vessel carries in terms of detergents, solvents and fluids-to-spill - not to mention the ubiquitous washed out paper labels and drenched cardboard.Nothing is more devastating than having to disintegrate a complex pumping system for the third ♨⎈☂⚐☁ time under rollercoaster conditions because it strictly refuses to pump what comes WITH the bloody water You desperately try to get rid of first hand.Bringing  some of Your own prepared gallons of typically contaminated watery dispersion of debris to a pump test isn't something the sellers of lesser reliable pumps do like very much.In the contrasting case the clerk does like to try anything You both could think of to torture his pump towards choking You might consider buying - depending on the actual performance, of course.I can't emphasise enough how important it might become in no time to have something at hand to really get rid of noteworthy amounts of debris-stricken, salty  liquid ballast.I personally love diaphragm systems, for those systems are used for concrete, sewage and a vast variety of scuzzy, abrasive sludges on a commercial basis, and the best yacht toilets, in terms of low maintenance, even if small tampons should accidentially fall in without proper female foresight, work with dead simple diaphragm pumps - despite compost toilets, of course.http://www.edsonpumps.com/pumps_dia/diaphragm.php... for example.Cheers G_BAm 15.03.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Stephen Wandling swandling@... [origamiboats]:   The Haida came complete with a non-functioning Whale Gusher 10, the cast aluminum model, which hadn't worked in years. It was not only full of junk, but it was plagued with massive corrosion. And, it was a bulkhead version, meaning that if you ever sucked crap into it, effecting the valves, you had to extract the pump from behind the bulkhead, which was not an easy task. Surface mount is the only way to go. I want to build a SS pump. There are a few things I could salvage from this pump, and the repair kit for it costs $68 including taxes, from Steveston Marine. But, if there are other pumps that have cheaper repair kits, then I would probably build one to suit them. If you know of a suitable repair kit, that's cheap, please let me know. Thanks, Stephen | 32353|32350|2015-03-15 17:05:17|magicod|Re: Building a bilge pump|I'm not interested in fixing the existing Whale Gusher, but I can use some of the parts, like the handle and it's attachment to the diaphragm.  It's current diaphragm seem fine, but it's the flapper valves and the corrosion on the areas they are supposed to seal to, that is the biggest problem.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have made check valves for pumps out of inner tube. There is a 4 ich brake diaphragm  truck supplies have, which may fit that pump as a diaphragm. A bit on the stiff side , but they are cheap and super tough. Wouldn't cost much to try one .| 32354|32345|2015-03-15 17:07:44|theboilerflue|Re: Gebo Portlight|I would build a small aluminium hatch, just like the main hatches on most BS' then cut the middle out and bolt some plastic in. build a wooden lip for it to seal against.| 32355|32345|2015-03-15 17:12:30|theboilerflue|Re: Gebo Portlight|you could maybe even find a lid to an aluminium box or a nice solid platic container that would be the right size.| 32356|32345|2015-03-15 17:22:46|Stephen Wandling|Re: Gebo Portlight|Ahaa! I like that idea. Given that this boat won't be cruising outside the Strait of Georgia, I could build it from wood and epoxy. I will have to ponder this. I guess it would be best if it opened out, just like a hatch. Thanks, Stephen On 15/03/2015 2:07 PM, haidan@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I would build a small aluminium hatch, just like the main hatches on most BS' then cut the middle out and bolt some plastic in. build a wooden lip for it to seal against. | 32357|32345|2015-03-15 17:45:09|brentswain38|Re: Gebo Portlight|I have built several ports like that,  for that use, out of SS. Worked well.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ahaa! I like that idea. Given that this boat won't be cruising outside the Strait of Georgia, I could build it from wood and epoxy. I will have to ponder this. I guess it would be best if it opened out, just like a hatch. Thanks, Stephen On 15/03/2015 2:07 PM, haidan@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I would build a small aluminium hatch, just like the main hatches on most BS' then cut the middle out and bolt some plastic in. build a wooden lip for it to seal against. | 32358|32345|2015-03-17 15:11:27|opuspaul|Re: Gebo Portlight|Something to consider.....If it is just a dodger, I can't see any reason to make the center section opening.  You don't need the ventilation.   You could leave it as just a fixed window and then if you change it later to a closed in pilothouse, change it to an opening panel then.| 32359|32345|2015-03-17 15:23:24|brentswain38|Re: Gebo Portlight|An opening there reduces windage and improves visibility.| 32360|32345|2015-03-17 15:57:54|Stephen Wandling|Re: Gebo Portlight| Thanks for the thought.  It has some merit, as it will affect my schedule. I am interested in getting this boat back into the water ASAP.  And it's quite likely that I will close it in, either later, but possibly now, while I have it under cover.  I need to sit in it as a dodger, with my feet inside the boat, before I can evaluate the closing in.  I'm tall and there's a bridge deck to contend with when getting into or out of the boat.  A cupola would be needed for headroom, but I'm hoping it wouldn't have to be too high. I've just realized that it was you who sent me the link for a Haida for sale down your way, on Low Cost Voyaging.  I enjoyed seeing the pictures. http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-831245024.htm He started with the flush deck version, while I have the benefit of a raised cabin, and I suspect my pilothouse will look better than his!   ;-)  Thanks, Stephen On 17/03/2015 12:11 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Something to consider..... If it is just a dodger, I can't see any reason to make the center section opening. You don't need the ventilation. You could leave it as just a fixed window and then if you change it later to a closed in pilothouse, change it to an opening panel then. | 32361|32361|2015-03-19 16:19:12|opuspaul|Sail Quote|FYI....I recently got a quote for a new mainsail for my 36 footer from Lee Sails out of Hongkong who have been around for many, many years. http://www.leesails.com/ This quote is to replace my existing sail which was originally from them.  I must say it is extremely well built.   I have taken care of it so it has done lots of miles and has lasted over 20 years.  I would still sail offshore with it but it is not going to win me any races and for an extended trip of a year or two, I don't want to push my luck.Anyway, I think for  a new sail, it is quite competitive.   Challenge is good quality name brand cloth.  It is triple stitched with 3 reef points and conventional slides.   It may have been more if I asked for battens but at this price it is about the same price as a Sailrite kit.  http://www.sailrite.com/Sail-Kits-Custom-Sail-Quotes-CruisersUsed sails may be the way to go but if I can't find one in good shape that fits for a reasonable price, I may go this way again.  If they still make them as good as the last one, I will be happy.  Cheers, PaulBattenless Mainsail of 8.8oz USwt Challenge dacron, 39’6” luff x 14’9” foot x 42’1” leech with 3 reefs     US$1308Less: 10% offseason discount      US$131Nett:     US$1177Add: delivery by Fedex to New Zealand      US$252Total:      US$1429| 32362|32362|2015-03-19 17:04:48|Stephen Wandling|Pilothouse Details|Because my background is in project management, I tend to need all of the details before I am eager to move into implementing any part of the work. I have most of the details that I need for most parts of the pilothouse, but am eager to fill in the blanks. This pilothouse is going on a Haida 26, a fiberglass boat, and will be primarily stitch and glue, with the house bonded to the cabin top with inside ledgers and epoxy putty and glass. My first question is how does one mark and cut the three front panels so that the house roof has the same curve as the cabin top? I will build the sides and front much like you would in steel. The height of the side panels is known, but how to layout the cuts to the front panels isn't clear to me at all. It's my understanding that the front panels are installed, taller than needed and attached to the side panels. Then they are trimmed such that the curved roof fits snugly onto them. The second item is framing inside the house roof. Because I want to keep this house as low as possible and still have adequate headroom, it has been my intention to put the roof in place and then 'build' beams using 1/4" ply in 1" widths, by screwing them to the underside of the roof, bedded in epoxy. When the epoxy is cured, I will remove the screws and place two more strips on the first, one at a time. The net result will be a 'beam' that's 1" wide and 3/4" deep. I believe it will give adequate strength to the house roof. But, my concern is that it may not suffice in keeping the sides from spreading. Or, maybe it will? This boat will only cruise the Strait of Georgia, so storm conditions are not relevant. I also plan to have at least two solar panels on the house roof, this will mean that no one will be standing on the roof. The sides will be in 1/2" ply and the roof will be two layers of 1/4" ply epoxied together in place. I've been puzzling on how to trim the front panels for some time. It will be good to put that issue to bed. Thanks, Stephen| 32363|32361|2015-03-19 17:18:10|brentswain38|Re: Sail Quote|I have been told that if you specify sailcloth like Ratsey Vectis they will use  that. If you don't specify , you get junk sail cloth.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :FYI....I recently got a quote for a new mainsail for my 36 footer from Lee Sails out of Hongkong who have been around for many, many years. http://www.leesails.com/ This quote is to replace my existing sail which was originally from them.  I must say it is extremely well built.   I have taken care of it so it has done lots of miles and has lasted over 20 years.  I would still sail offshore with it but it is not going to win me any races and for an extended trip of a year or two, I don't want to push my luck.Anyway, I think for  a new sail, it is quite competitive.   Challenge is good quality name brand cloth.  It is triple stitched with 3 reef points and conventional slides.   It may have been more if I asked for battens but at this price it is about the same price as a Sailrite kit.  http://www.sailrite.com/Sail-Kits-Custom-Sail-Quotes-CruisersUsed sails may be the way to go but if I can't find one in good shape that fits for a reasonable price, I may go this way again.  If they still make them as good as the last one, I will be happy.  Cheers, PaulBattenless Mainsail of 8.8oz USwt Challenge dacron, 39’6” luff x 14’9” foot x 42’1” leech with 3 reefs     US$1308Less: 10% offseason discount      US$131Nett:     US$1177Add: delivery by Fedex to New Zealand      US$252Total:      US$1429| 32364|32362|2015-03-19 17:28:43|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse Details|You can buy sheet fibreglass , two layers of mat rolled out flat  , as a base for building your pilot house. Another option is to use sheet urethane foam. That, if glassed both sides, will give you a lot of stiffness, and insulation,  while preserving head room.The joint between cabin top and sides is  a big angle, which will stop the sides from spreading. Yes, leaving the front panels long, fitting it on your cabin top, then trimming them parallel with your cabin top , is the easiest way of doing it . That is how I build pilothouses on steel boats. Sight along the front panels from the sides, to avoid getting  twist in them,.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Because my background is in project management, I tend to need all of the details before I am eager to move into implementing any part of the work. I have most of the details that I need for most parts of the pilothouse, but am eager to fill in the blanks. This pilothouse is going on a Haida 26, a fiberglass boat, and will be primarily stitch and glue, with the house bonded to the cabin top with inside ledgers and epoxy putty and glass. My first question is how does one mark and cut the three front panels so that the house roof has the same curve as the cabin top? I will build the sides and front much like you would in steel. The height of the side panels is known, but how to layout the cuts to the front panels isn't clear to me at all. It's my understanding that the front panels are installed, taller than needed and attached to the side panels. Then they are trimmed such that the curved roof fits snugly onto them. The second item is framing inside the house roof. Because I want to keep this house as low as possible and still have adequate headroom, it has been my intention to put the roof in place and then 'build' beams using 1/4" ply in 1" widths, by screwing them to the underside of the roof, bedded in epoxy. When the epoxy is cured, I will remove the screws and place two more strips on the first, one at a time. The net result will be a 'beam' that's 1" wide and 3/4" deep. I believe it will give adequate strength to the house roof. But, my concern is that it may not suffice in keeping the sides from spreading. Or, maybe it will? This boat will only cruise the Strait of Georgia, so storm conditions are not relevant. I also plan to have at least two solar panels on the house roof, this will mean that no one will be standing on the roof. The sides will be in 1/2" ply and the roof will be two layers of 1/4" ply epoxied together in place. I've been puzzling on how to trim the front panels for some time. It will be good to put that issue to bed. Thanks, Stephen| 32365|32361|2015-03-19 17:40:19|opuspaul|Re: Sail Quote|I don't think that kind of cloth is available anymore.  Challenge is name brand good quality cloth used by many other sailmakers.  Here is the link to what they would use.http://www.leesails.com/cloth/D888.pdfhttp://www.challengesailcloth.com/More here:http://www.cruisingworld.com/how/out-whole-cloth-sailcloth-101 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have been told that if you specify sailcloth like Ratsey Vectis they will use  that. If you don't specify , you get junk sail cloth.| 32366|32362|2015-03-19 18:36:13|Stephen Wandling|Re: Pilothouse Details|The simple answer to my question of how to layout and trim the front panels, makes me smile. This, in my experience, is a typical problem solving issue for me and others. The 'problem' is at the tops of the front panels, so I look for the 'solution' at the top. But the solution is at the bottom, the cabin top they are resting on. Just measure up, make a few marks, spring a batten and cut them off. :-[ What thickness of urethane foam were you thinking of? Would I be able to just cut holes and bolt on my acrylic fixed lights or would I have to line the holes with wood framing? I can get 2'x8' in 1" for $6 a sheet, which makes it cheap enough. And speaking of cheap, I got a quote for $600 for 60' of 3/4" SS sch 40 pipe for my stanchions and top rail. I think 1/2" was about $400. I didn't ask for 3/4" sch 40 aluminum. That's a big hit on my building budget. My current option is to build and install new SS stanchion bases and put my current stanchions and wire lifelines in to launch, until I can find $600. Thanks, Stephen On 19/03/2015 2:28 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > You can buy sheet fibreglass , two layers of mat rolled out flat , as a base for building your pilot house. Another option is to use sheet urethane foam. That, if glassed both sides, will give you a lot of stiffness, and insulation, while preserving head room. > The joint between cabin top and sides is a big angle, which will stop the sides from spreading. > Yes, leaving the front panels long, fitting it on your cabin top, then trimming them parallel with your cabin top , is the easiest way of doing it . That is how I build pilothouses on steel boats. Sight along the front panels from the sides, to avoid getting twist in them, > . > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > Because my background is in project management, I tend to need all of > the details before I am eager to move into implementing any part of the > work. I have most of the details that I need for most parts of the > pilothouse, but am eager to fill in the blanks. > > This pilothouse is going on a Haida 26, a fiberglass boat, and will be > primarily stitch and glue, with the house bonded to the cabin top with > inside ledgers and epoxy putty and glass. > > My first question is how does one mark and cut the three front panels so > that the house roof has the same curve as the cabin top? I will build > the sides and front much like you would in steel. The height of the > side panels is known, but how to layout the cuts to the front panels > isn't clear to me at all. It's my understanding that the front panels > are installed, taller than needed and attached to the side panels. Then > they are trimmed such that the curved roof fits snugly onto them. > > The second item is framing inside the house roof. Because I want to > keep this house as low as possible and still have adequate headroom, it > has been my intention to put the roof in place and then 'build' beams > using 1/4" ply in 1" widths, by screwing them to the underside of the > roof, bedded in epoxy. When the epoxy is cured, I will remove the > screws and place two more strips on the first, one at a time. The net > result will be a 'beam' that's 1" wide and 3/4" deep. I believe it will > give adequate strength to the house roof. But, my concern is that it > may not suffice in keeping the sides from spreading. Or, maybe it will? > > This boat will only cruise the Strait of Georgia, so storm conditions > are not relevant. I also plan to have at least two solar panels on the > house roof, this will mean that no one will be standing on the roof. > The sides will be in 1/2" ply and the roof will be two layers of 1/4" > ply epoxied together in place. > > I've been puzzling on how to trim the front panels for some time. It > will be good to put that issue to bed. > > Thanks, > Stephen > > | 32367|32367|2015-03-20 13:37:49|smallboatvoyaguer|Longitudinal Stringers| So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin| 32368|32362|2015-03-20 16:10:50|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse Details|1 inch sounds good.Yes, you can simply bolt your windows on.Check the scrapyards in the lower mainland for stainless.  Stainless boiler tubing is common, and plentiful ,for around $2 a pound. 3/4 sch 40 is much easier to weld , but if you cant find that ,boiler tubing works fine.Yes, you can add the top rail anytime.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The simple answer to my question of how to layout and trim the front panels, makes me smile. This, in my experience, is a typical problem solving issue for me and others. The 'problem' is at the tops of the front panels, so I look for the 'solution' at the top. But the solution is at the bottom, the cabin top they are resting on. Just measure up, make a few marks, spring a batten and cut them off. :-[ What thickness of urethane foam were you thinking of? Would I be able to just cut holes and bolt on my acrylic fixed lights or would I have to line the holes with wood framing? I can get 2'x8' in 1" for $6 a sheet, which makes it cheap enough. And speaking of cheap, I got a quote for $600 for 60' of 3/4" SS sch 40 pipe for my stanchions and top rail. I think 1/2" was about $400. I didn't ask for 3/4" sch 40 aluminum. That's a big hit on my building budget. My current option is to build and install new SS stanchion bases and put my current stanchions and wire lifelines in to launch, until I can find $600. Thanks, Stephen On 19/03/2015 2:28 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > You can buy sheet fibreglass , two layers of mat rolled out flat , as a base for building your pilot house. Another option is to use sheet urethane foam. That, if glassed both sides, will give you a lot of stiffness, and insulation, while preserving head room. > The joint between cabin top and sides is a big angle, which will stop the sides from spreading. > Yes, leaving the front panels long, fitting it on your cabin top, then trimming them parallel with your cabin top , is the easiest way of doing it . That is how I build pilothouses on steel boats. Sight along the front panels from the sides, to avoid getting twist in them, > . > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > Because my background is in project management, I tend to need all of > the details before I am eager to move into implementing any part of the > work. I have most of the details that I need for most parts of the > pilothouse, but am eager to fill in the blanks. > > This pilothouse is going on a Haida 26, a fiberglass boat, and will be > primarily stitch and glue, with the house bonded to the cabin top with > inside ledgers and epoxy putty and glass. > > My first question is how does one mark and cut the three front panels so > that the house roof has the same curve as the cabin top? I will build > the sides and front much like you would in steel. The height of the > side panels is known, but how to layout the cuts to the front panels > isn't clear to me at all. It's my understanding that the front panels > are installed, taller than needed and attached to the side panels. Then > they are trimmed such that the curved roof fits snugly onto them. > > The second item is framing inside the house roof. Because I want to > keep this house as low as possible and still have adequate headroom, it > has been my intention to put the roof in place and then 'build' beams > using 1/4" ply in 1" widths, by screwing them to the underside of the > roof, bedded in epoxy. When the epoxy is cured, I will remove the > screws and place two more strips on the first, one at a time. The net > result will be a 'beam' that's 1" wide and 3/4" deep. I believe it will > give adequate strength to the house roof. But, my concern is that it > may not suffice in keeping the sides from spreading. Or, maybe it will? > > This boat will only cruise the Strait of Georgia, so storm conditions > are not relevant. I also plan to have at least two solar panels on the > house roof, this will mean that no one will be standing on the roof. > The sides will be in 1/2" ply and the roof will be two layers of 1/4" > ply epoxied together in place. > > I've been puzzling on how to trim the front panels for some time. It > will be good to put that issue to bed. > > Thanks, > Stephen > > | 32369|32367|2015-03-20 16:13:25|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| 1 1/4 is a bit stiffer and harder to bend. I'd use those on the bottom. You may have to split the ends so they don't poke  a hard lump in the plate there.| 32370|32370|2015-03-20 17:52:33|aguysailing|4 yrs new and rust|My 4 yr old New Isuzu 50 hp is showing signs of rust.  Suggestions about how to clean this up and afterwards protect against rust....    (see 4 pics in "Rusty Engine" ... album in photo section)Thanks| 32371|32370|2015-03-20 18:11:50|James Pronk|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Hello GaryI have used a wire wheel on my disk grinder on a VW diesel that I was going to rebuild. I had the fuel pump and all the fuel lines off so it was pretty easy to clean up with the grinder. I painted it with three coats of epoxy and then sold it.Doing it installed will be a little tricky I would think. Wire cup wheel on a drill, scraper, wire brush, flat screw driver, I would try one and all. I washed down mine with a green cleaning product to degrease it when I had it all put back together, Then rinsed it really well with water, and started it and ran it to dry it off then primed it when it was still hot.James From: aguysailing@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] 4 yrs new and rust Sent: Fri, Mar 20, 2015 9:52:33 PM   My 4 yr old New Isuzu 50 hp is showing signs of rust.  Suggestions about how to clean this up and afterwards protect against rust....    (see 4 pics in "Rusty Engine" ... album in photo section)Thanks | 32372|32370|2015-03-20 19:51:49|opuspaul|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|My engine started rusting within a year.  All new engines should be painted much better than they are...it is not a priority to the manufacturers.   If I got a new engine again, I would give it a few coats from new while I still can get at it easily.You can try degreasing, cleaning with a wire brush and then chemically treating it with rust killer before using a new paint.   Make sure you rinse well.   You can use engine enamels which are convenient and easy to spray or use epoxy.  There are also lot of specialty automotive paints that work well on tight rust.   I chose to use Rustbullet on my engine.   I don't think it is as good as two part epoxy but it is single pack and easy to use for touch ups later.  It can take the heat and I found it was cheaper than POR 15 which is a similar product.  http://www.rustbullet.com/  There will always be a few spots you can't quite reach or miss.   To really do a good job, you need to strip it down and do each part individually which is a big job.   I did the best I could with painting it but ended up spraying grease on mine.   The spray Lanocote you get in an aerosol can works well or you can use a synthetic grease thinned down with turpentine.    Synthetic grease won't dry out and crack like some of the mineral based greases after the turpentine evaporates.   Like the Lanacote, both the synthetics and turpentine are safe with the plastics and the hoses.   The grease is a bit messy but I would rather have grease on my hands than a rusty and corroded engine.| 32373|32370|2015-03-21 00:02:22|wild_explorer|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|I was dealing lately with how to clean greasy and rusty/corroded parts (fixing old truck and rebuilding old engine). I was trying different solvents and techniques. I found that ATF (automatic transmission fluid) works best for DIY. It removes gum, light rust, make it easier to remove heavy rust mechanically (wire wheel/brush). ATF is easy to apply - you can use water spray bottle to spray ATF on big parts or engine. It protects parts from rust and corrosion as well.If you have transmission shop nearby, you can get big amount of used ATF for free. Another plus, is very low odor of ATF compare to other solvents and it gives light protective coat. You can even "wash"engine with ATF.So, spray engine with ATF, let it soak for a while. Respray heavily - it will wash dirt, corrosion, light rust out.Collect and filter used ATF for reuse. Repeat. Use wire brush if needed.50/50 ATF/acetone mix works really good for freeing rusty fasteners.For protecting rotating parts you may need heavy grease (how Paul recommended in his post).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My 4 yr old New Isuzu 50 hp is showing signs of rust.  Suggestions about how to clean this up and afterwards protect against rust....    (see 4 pics in "Rusty Engine" ... album in photo section)Thanks| 32374|32370|2015-03-21 13:28:40|aguysailing|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|.... thanks for all comments guys.  Just wondering about the "rust looking" stuff on the aluminum whether or not ATF or other chemicals should be used on the aluminum.| 32375|32370|2015-03-21 15:23:34|wild_explorer|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|If you are talking about aluminum corrosion, ATF is safe for aluminum (designed to prevent corrosion). Case of car's transmission is made from aluminum and holds ATF inside of it all its life.I cleaned outside of the transmission with solvents and ended up with surface corrosion. Finally, I just cleaned it with ATF - no more problems. Grease is safe for aluminum as well.Try to avoid chemicals and solvents if it does not leave protective coat (similar to grease/solvent mix) after solvent evaporation. There is some automotive/marine paint for aluminum engine/transmission blocks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :.... thanks for all comments guys.  Just wondering about the "rust looking" stuff on the aluminum whether or not ATF or other chemicals should be used on the aluminum.| 32376|32370|2015-03-21 17:26:10|opuspaul|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|I would be very careful using acetone around an engine.  It can eat some plastic.   I now use turpentine as a standard thinner after having another thinner destroy a part once.  Turpentine is fairly benign being a derivative of pine resin and seems to be safe with all plastics and all types of seals and hoses.I really like your idea of using ATF as a penetrating oil but if I spill ATF fluid on my car, it eventually dries and ends up being sticky and attracting dirt.  If I cleaned my engine on the boat with it, I would think I would have a real mess to clean up later if I didn't manage to get it all off.  I normally use engine cleaner/degreaser since it is water soluble and easy to rinse off with a hose.| 32377|32370|2015-03-21 19:58:11|brentswain38|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|I would make sur eit is suypoer clena befor weapplyging any more paint. TSP and engine cleaner.I slapped some epoxy tar on and it stuck like shit to a blanket for many years . Looks plastic coated . Would epoxy   the whole engine next time.| 32378|32370|2015-03-21 20:02:04|brentswain38|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Sorry for the typos . I would make sure it is super clean before applying any more paint---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would make sur eit is suypoer clena befor weapplyging any more paint. TSP and engine cleaner.I slapped some epoxy tar on and it stuck like shit to a blanket for many years . Looks plastic coated . Would epoxy   the whole engine next time.| 32379|32370|2015-03-21 23:05:08|aguysailing|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Epoxy tar even over the aluminum of which there is a lot in this engine?   Definetly will use engine cleaner and then tsp... I am going to clean up as best as possible but next fall after cruising I will haul the engine out and really give it a going over as it is worth doing given that the engine is barely 4 yrs old... ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry for the typos . I would make sure it is super clean before applying any more paint---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would make sur eit is suypoer clena befor weapplyging any more paint. TSP and engine cleaner.I slapped some epoxy tar on and it stuck like shit to a blanket for many years . Looks plastic coated . Would epoxy   the whole engine next time.| 32380|32370|2015-03-22 11:55:51|theboilerflue|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Wouldn't coating your engine in oil, ATF or otherwise smoke a ton once you get the engine up to temp?Washing the engine in diesel I could see as it's a pretty good solvent and tends to smoke off pretty quick and leaves an oily residue that doesn't smoke any more and only picks up a bit of dirt.ATF and acetone work wonders as a penetrating fluid though, the acetone carries the oil right in then evaporates.| 32381|32370|2015-03-22 16:56:21|brentswain38|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|The worst the epoxy can do is fall off the aluminium, and continue to protect  the steel. Aluminium likes a vinegar wash before painting. That removes the aluminiun oxide.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Epoxy tar even over the aluminum of which there is a lot in this engine?   Definetly will use engine cleaner and then tsp... I am going to clean up as best as possible but next fall after cruising I will haul the engine out and really give it a going over as it is worth doing given that the engine is barely 4 yrs old... ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry for the typos . I would make sure it is super clean before applying any more paint---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would make sur eit is suypoer clena befor weapplyging any more paint. TSP and engine cleaner.I slapped some epoxy tar on and it stuck like shit to a blanket for many years . Looks plastic coated . Would epoxy   the whole engine next time.| 32382|32370|2015-03-22 21:38:30|wild_explorer|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Diesel and kerosene are very good solvents. It is expensive now. I saw kerosene sold in bulk only at one gas station in my area. Price similar to diesel fuel. Both have noticeable odor ;))I was surprised that some diesel engines has aluminum block (as in original question). For cast iron block oil based liquid is good. Remember how to season cast iron cookware to make it non-sticking? Apply thin coat of hi-temp vegi oil, heat cookware up to 250-350F for some time. Do not clean with chemicals or abrasives - just wipe it down after cooling off. Repeat several times for best result. May be diesel fuel does the same thing on cast iron block? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Washing the engine in diesel I could see as it's a pretty good solvent and tends to smoke off pretty quick and leaves an oily residue that doesn't smoke any more and only picks up a bit of dirt.| 32383|32370|2015-03-22 22:20:11|aguysailing|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Just wondering if there would be any benefit to ventilate my engine compartment as there is no ventilation  there right now.  I could set something up similar to the AirHead composting head with a fan in a hose leading from the engine compartment.| 32384|32370|2015-03-22 22:56:47|opuspaul|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Diesels consume a lot of air when running so to make them efficient there should always be good ventilation to the engine compartment.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Just wondering if there would be any benefit to ventilate my engine compartment as there is no ventilation  there right now.  I could set something up similar to the AirHead composting head with a fan in a hose leading from the engine compartment.| 32385|32370|2015-03-23 09:41:43|jaybeecherbay|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|I am also in the process of designing a ventilation system to the engine compartment.  Can anyone give me great solution?  brent?thanksJay.| 32386|32370|2015-03-23 12:18:50|Gordon Schnell|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Keep in mind that for the engine to run, it must ingest air. That air can be used to cool the engine on its’ way to the intake manifold. The downside to this approach is the heating of the intake air results in expansion of the air mass and fewer O2 molecules per cu ft of air….reduced horsepower.Gord On Mar 22, 2015, at 8:20 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:Just wondering if there would be any benefit to ventilate my engine compartment as there is no ventilation  there right now.  I could set something up similar to the AirHead composting head with a fan in a hose leading from the engine compartment.| 32387|32370|2015-03-23 17:30:59|aguysailing|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|My concern about ventilation was not about engine running but about a 24/7 ventilation of the engine compartment to vent moisture out of the engine compartment which no doubt is causing the rust on this 4 yrs old engine.  For myself when running there is plenty of ventilation in the boat which can get to the engine room by just cracking the pilot house hatch a bit.  There is clear access of air from there to the engine.  Just like the 24/7 venting of my AirHead composting head a similar hose and fan set up routed outside might work (I am suggesting) to vent 24/7 the moist engine compartment air out.| 32388|32370|2015-03-23 17:42:03|brentswain38|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|I always put a 6 inch vent with a 6 inch fan in the front end of the cockpit well. It is hooked up to the ignition so runs anytime the engine is running. It pumps air directly from the engine compartment to the cockpit.| 32389|32370|2015-03-23 17:45:46|brentswain38|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|A friend had a 12 hp Yanmar on a 34 footer. When he was in the north it pushed him well. When he hit the warmer air in Georgia Strait in summer, he lost a knot or more. So he put an air intake up his mizzen, and no longer lost speed in warmer places.Cooler air feeds a diesel better.| 32390|32370|2015-03-23 17:48:10|brentswain38|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Any time there is 2 degree or more difference in temperature between a surface and surrounding  air, you will get condensation. Anti condensation paint on the hull there may help a bit.| 32391|32370|2015-03-24 11:09:12|aguysailing|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|.... ok... so the 2 degree difference = condensation which tells me no point in venting the engine 24/7 to vent moisture.  I have received a lot of advice regarding prevention of rust on an engine both on this site and one other.  I will summarize all and post later which may be of interest to origamists here.| 32392|32370|2015-03-25 07:04:20|theboilerflue|Re: 4 yrs new and rust|Since your head is right next to the engien compartment you could rig another vent hose up so that the compsoting head fan draws air from the engine compartment into the shiter bucket then out. You've got that fan running most of the time so that would work to draw out most of the moist air thats in with the engine. Get a small piece of hose and run it through into the bucket and throught the wall into the engine bay, you might just have to put a bead of silicone around the rim of the toilet seat cover to seal air from coming in through there and instead it would be drawn out of the engine bay. I hear Brents favorite conseravtives work better the warmer moist airs anyway.As far as the engine breathing, it's drawing air from the whole stern of the boat, not exactly closed in as long as the boat can breath I wouldn't worry about it.| 32393|32393|2015-03-25 14:10:28|aguysailing|Rusty Engine (other forum posts)|For those who commented on this previous thread, the following are comments made on another forum you may finding interesting and maybe useful should you have a rusty engine to deal with: You must have a very wet bilge, and or there is a lot of sweating going on. It must have to do with your boat being made of steel! That being said, I would use Z.R.C. cold galvanizing spray paint primer, for the steel parts. I have used it for a number of yrs. for different boats. You just have to clean the surface well and make sure there is no oil residue. As far as the aluminum is concerned, I'm not sure. I would use a plastic brush, to clean with warm soapy water then film it with CRC or something like that. I know aluminum, gets an oxide layer on it, but you are getting pitting corrosion. What is that pink powder, under the shaft couplings? It also seems to be on the aluminum after end of the (I assume) tranny housing? You definitely have a wet bilge!!!!!!!! You must have a very wet bilge, and or there is a lot of sweating going on. It must have to do with your boat being made of steel! That being said, I would use Z.R.C. cold galvanizing spray paint primer, for the steel parts. I have used it for a number of yrs. For different boats. You just have to clean the surface well and make sure there is no oil residue. As far as the aluminum is concerned, I’m not sure. I would use a plastic brush, to clean with warm soapy water then film it with CRC or something like that. I know aluminum, gets an oxide layer on it, but you are getting pitting corrosion. What is that pink powder, under the shaft couplings? It also seems to be on the aluminum after end of the (I assume) tranny housing? You definitely have a wet bilge!!!!!!!! Another thought is, do you have a battery near this area in an unsealed box or even mounted openly. Gassing from lead/acid flooded cells will freely travel through the air as a mist, and that mist is Sulfuric Acid. If so clean everything with a baking powder solution in water and repaint if that’s a possiability. For the steel components you have 3 options. You can ignore the problem, you can use a rust preventative or you can clean and paint / coat / plate. There are some good spray paints that can be applied to mechanically abraded steel surfaces. Plating is best done before installation. Brush on zinc plate may also be effective.  For the alloy you only need to keep it clean and dry and the naturally occuring oxide will work fine.  There are a range of mild acidic treatment that can help but if you I treat the components after rinsing and drying the problem will be exacerbated. ************************************************ I’d start with a biodegradable citrus based degreaser and a stiff bristle plastic brush. If you use a wire brush use a stainless not a steel brush. The wires will lodge everywhere and rust like mad. forget the plastic brushes they wont do the job you will have to be very aggressive to clean and then once again use proven coating don’t worry about the alloy that will be thick and you can wire brush it to get a good clean finish ( do take note of other advise and make sure you do a good clean up to remove all of the wire from the brushes) do not use a power wire brush on a drill this will polish the iron oxide and make it very hard to remove “ chipping rust” ************************************************* The oxidization on the aluminium is different to rust. Unlike rust, which assists in the growth of more rust, Oxidization on aluminium inhibits more of itself . Step one. Get better ventilation! **************************************** Unfortunately all this work could have been prevented by painting the new engine before installation, there is no evidence of paint anywhere. Buy a litre of Kerosene and a cheap hand pump and lightly cover all surfaces including the alloy surfaces, hang the hand pump somewhere close and every few weeks lightly dust the engine and in ten years time think about replacing the Isuzu and remember to paint every thing before installation ***************************************** Actually this is a very valid option (i.e., applyinng Kerosene by hand pump). After a couple of applications you will be able to wipe a lot of the corrosion away. Even better use a small wire brush and the rust will disappear eventually. However I would consider this an either/or option as the this idea does not correspond with painting methods at all. It will save a lot of work. Dry that engine room up. I had an area under the water pump”>raw water pump where there was surface rust. I removed as much rust as possible, primed the area with Rustoleum primer, then painted with Rustoleum bronze spray paint – a half decent match for Universal gold at ¼ of the price. Looks great 3 years later. Yep, apply some elbow grease and get ‘er done. Plenty of suggestions above. Use something to eat the rust, rinse well, dry well and paint. The basic engine will be fine, the electricals,,,… time will tell…. Hello bcguy, the option to use Kero or white spirits has been used in the aviation industries for many years, the residue left after a light dusting prevents oxidisation on the Alloy and will control rust on the unprotected steel engine parts. The smell depends on the grade of Kero you select is important, spray lightly and run your engine with your ventilation opened. “DO NOT use a degreaser” wish you luck. Adamsteel, Sydney. Water Displacer Formula #40 or this http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=64232&engine=adwords&keyword=zinc_chromate_primer&gclid=CITN8urwusQCFcRafgodGzcAKA The Navy (or in my case USCG) used wash primer phosphate conversion coat after chipping off all the rust and then red oxide primer. The ships are painted white, and the Old Man hates rust streaks.   | 32394|32393|2015-03-25 17:59:09|brentswain38|Re: Rusty Engine (other forum posts)|Some great advice, some "made up on the spot" bullshit.| 32395|32395|2015-03-26 01:37:49|jaybeecherbay|Dry Bilge|I know Brent recommends never to foam the bilge, or under the engine...  But what about if you fiberglass over the foam?  I know a guy who did this on a 36' and it turned out really nice.  He told me before he had to pump out over a gallon of water a week just from condensation.  Now it stays nearly completely dry, and the whole boat stays warmer.  He used Fiberglass compound stitched mat on top of the spray foam, with polyester resin.seems like a great solution to keep condensation out of engine room, and further protect the steel.I am thinking of doing the same on mine, any reasons not to?Jay.| 32396|32395|2015-03-26 06:20:13|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Dry Bilge|Any reasons not to?The main reason would be that You won't get to Your hull from the inside for inspection any more, not to mention for servicing.The idea of insulation is to push "outward"  the layer of the isothermal line below which (in temperature-ranges) condensation occurs.That condensation point within the construction is vastly depending on Your special situation concerning climate region, usual usage of the boat, combination of materials used, and so on.A layer of foam ontop inside a metal hull will be positively capable to rise the temperature of Your inner surface above condensation ... in theory.In practice You have problem-zones to ruin the isothermal gradient, though, like any penetrations from porthole to throughhull for example, like engine-mounts, a shaft, stringers with bulkheads fixed to them, a maststep or two, ....Evaporation needs A LOT of energy to put water with 100 degrees Celsius to vapour with still 100 degrees celsius, and almost the same rise of energetic level will be required to take "water" back to "moisture" or vapor below the 100 degree line, so once condensed, the former moisture will stay as water between foam and hull.And then, there still is gravitation: any moisture, once condensed back to "water" is prone to it and so will strive for the lowest point possibly reachable inside Your hull.So any ever-so-small amount of condensed water will tend to collect down in the bilge and try to ruin your H2O-sensible hullmaterial below the outer waterline underneath the foam from inside out, because once it got there, it will stay there for gravitation-reasons and for the described reasons in energetical requirements.And behind the foam, You will take notice of that occurrance first when the degrading work of ferro-oxide (aka rust) is already in thriving completion, what will probably lead to some slight inconveniences at the end of the day, to mention the least. So: better bail regularly and keep an occasional eye on the condensor-surfaces underneath.Additional benefit: By this vast "condensor-surface" below waterline You get with an unfoamed bilge, the amount of moisture You regularly condense and bail will lower the amount of moisture in the lived-in compartments of Your heated live-aboard at least a bit, and so will lower the absolute amount of condensed drippings from the skylight-rimming into the coffee-cups and the gin'n'tonics, not to mention the freshly panned fully English breakfast ....And now, what about fiberglassing over the whole mess ? ... well, thus would add a third material with a third elastic modulus and a third sort of characteristics and a pretty special third way of malfunction in terms of interfaces prone to moisture ... in technical theory, though, You could probably get it working with soft butyl as a fourth material buffering metal and fiberglass, if done 100 % meticulously.But I can give account that this doesn't even work properly in single-e-modulus fiberglass-only hulls with an insulating core!So I'd prefer to bail, and clearly see what happens, if something inconvenient might happen.Cheers G_BAm 26.03.2015 um 06:37 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:   I know Brent recommends never to foam the bilge, or under the engine...  But what about if you fiberglass over the foam?  I know a guy who did this on a 36' and it turned out really nice.  He told me before he had to pump out over a gallon of water a week just from condensation.  Now it stays nearly completely dry, and the whole boat stays warmer.  He used Fiberglass compound stitched mat on top of the spray foam, with polyester resin.seems like a great solution to keep condensation out of engine room, and further protect the steel.I am thinking of doing the same on mine, any reasons not to?Jay. | 32397|32395|2015-03-26 08:45:15|Matt Malone|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Dry Bilge| Condensation is fresh water and will tend to wash the bilge clean of salt.   If one wants to reduce condensation, one can reduce air circulation into the bilge by mainly covering it.   I know G_B said this, but it is worth saying again:  If there is any condensation happening in the tropics, it is acting as a FREE, ZERO ELECTRICITY de-humidifier for the rest of the boat THAT CANNOT FAIL, and will NEVER NEED REPLACEMENT PARTS.   Button up the boat, have a small electric bilge pump to keep the bilge dry and the humidity in the rest of the boat goes down.   In temperate climates, with cold water, having bilge condensation will aggressively dry the air in the boat.  Using a heater/wood stove will make the inside of the boat very dry.   I have no idea why anyone would glass in their bilge.       MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:20:08 +0100Subject: Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Dry Bilge   Any reasons not to?The main reason would be that You won't get to Your hull from the inside for inspection any more, not to mention for servicing.The idea of insulation is to push "outward"  the layer of the isothermal line below which (in temperature-ranges) condensation occurs.That condensation point within the construction is vastly depending on Your special situation concerning climate region, usual usage of the boat, combination of materials used, and so on.A layer of foam ontop inside a metal hull will be positively capable to rise the temperature of Your inner surface above condensation ... in theory.In practice You have problem-zones to ruin the isothermal gradient, though, like any penetrations from porthole to throughhull for example, like engine-mounts, a shaft, stringers with bulkheads fixed to them, a maststep or two, ....Evaporation needs A LOT of energy to put water with 100 degrees Celsius to vapour with still 100 degrees celsius, and almost the same rise of energetic level will be required to take "water" back to "moisture" or vapor below the 100 degree line, so once condensed, the former moisture will stay as water between foam and hull.And then, there still is gravitation: any moisture, once condensed back to "water" is prone to it and so will strive for the lowest point possibly reachable inside Your hull.So any ever-so-small amount of condensed water will tend to collect down in the bilge and try to ruin your H2O-sensible hullmaterial below the outer waterline underneath the foam from inside out, because once it got there, it will stay there for gravitation-reasons and for the described reasons in energetical requirements.And behind the foam, You will take notice of that occurrance first when the degrading work of ferro-oxide (aka rust) is already in thriving completion, what will probably lead to some slight inconveniences at the end of the day, to mention the least. So: better bail regularly and keep an occasional eye on the condensor-surfaces underneath.Additional benefit: By this vast "condensor-surface" below waterline You get with an unfoamed bilge, the amount of moisture You regularly condense and bail will lower the amount of moisture in the lived-in compartments of Your heated live-aboard at least a bit, and so will lower the absolute amount of condensed drippings from the skylight-rimming into the coffee-cups and the gin'n'tonics, not to mention the freshly panned fully English breakfast ....And now, what about fiberglassing over the whole mess ? ... well, thus would add a third material with a third elastic modulus and a third sort of characteristics and a pretty special third way of malfunction in terms of interfaces prone to moisture ... in technical theory, though, You could probably get it working with soft butyl as a fourth material buffering metal and fiberglass, if done 100 % meticulously.But I can give account that this doesn't even work properly in single-e-modulus fiberglass-only hulls with an insulating core!So I'd prefer to bail, and clearly see what happens, if something inconvenient might happen.Cheers G_BAm 26.03.2015 um 06:37 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:   I know Brent recommends never to foam the bilge, or under the engine...  But what about if you fiberglass over the foam?  I know a guy who did this on a 36' and it turned out really nice.  He told me before he had to pump out over a gallon of water a week just from condensation.  Now it stays nearly completely dry, and the whole boat stays warmer.  He used Fiberglass compound stitched mat on top of the spray foam, with polyester resin.seems like a great solution to keep condensation out of engine room, and further protect the steel.I am thinking of doing the same on mine, any reasons not to?Jay. | 32398|32395|2015-03-26 14:33:43|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Dry Bilge|Condensation is freshwater, while there usually will be some amount of salty residues in bilges which thus will, freshwater or not, restart the salt-oxygen-metal-humidity reactions oxidising metals are prone to.Some of these reactions can be reasonably inhibited with high quality coating, while keeping things visible and clean and keeping the waterlevel low (by bailing regularly) will prolong the phases between mandatory service/repaint.Using a woodburner stove or heater will definitely dry things out considerably, for those types of burners usually need a lot of air for their burning process, and this air does have to be replaced, what does commonly happen through vents/dorades.The cold outside air has a lot less ABSOLUTE vapor in it (even with about 85 % RELATIVE humidity or over) than the warm inside air, loaded with sweat and breath and cooking losses.So, replacing the inside air with initially cold outside air which will rapidly expand its absolute capacity for carrying moisture while taking on temperature, will dry out the inside a lot, and quick.Not so much with other sorts of warmth like central heating from a burner outside of the living spaces, or with closed circle air-recirculating systems.Using a woodburner (or an oilburner with an open fire, airfed from the cabin) and taking in the required fresh air especially via the bilges will keep those parts of the bilges/lockers with constant airflow from outside pretty dry in colder climates.Massive condensation will occur in humide, high airtemperature areas with moderate to cold watertemperatures below waterline with this sort of configuration, though.Which, Matt emphasised this, might be an effective way to keep the rest of the living spaces below decks considerably dryer with "pre-condensed" air supply from down below ... anybody who once found his own clubjacket growing tropical mushrooms in the armpits before attending the occasional sophisticated dinnerparty of that slightly quirky brit'sh couple on their nice'n'wellkept mahogany schooner will know what I mean.So, condensation is an issue, and we are absolutely unable to securely stop or trick this sort of physics, what forces us to learn to cope with and/or use it for our advantage, while at least keeping it visible and mentioned in correspondent dependence of the changing boundary conditions, like we would monitor the oil-pressure of a running engine for example, or would keep an eye on the quality of the drinking water we carry/take on.Shoving in foam and glassing it over won't solve any thus problem, I'm afraid.Cheers G_BAm 26.03.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   Condensation is fresh water and will tend to wash the bilge clean of salt.   If one wants to reduce condensation, one can reduce air circulation into the bilge by mainly covering it.   I know G_B said this, but it is worth saying again:  If there is any condensation happening in the tropics, it is acting as a FREE, ZERO ELECTRICITY de-humidifier for the rest of the boat THAT CANNOT FAIL, and will NEVER NEED REPLACEMENT PARTS.   Button up the boat, have a small electric bilge pump to keep the bilge dry and the humidity in the rest of the boat goes down.   In temperate climates, with cold water, having bilge condensation will aggressively dry the air in the boat.  Using a heater/wood stove will make the inside of the boat very dry.   I have no idea why anyone would glass in their bilge.       Matt. | 32399|32395|2015-03-26 16:38:49|opuspaul|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Dry Bilge|I agree with Matt.  I don't see the point.  When I lived on my boat in winter in Canada, I don't recall ever caring about water or condensation in my bilge.  The important thing is that the boat is well insulated everywhere else so that woodwork and other softer materials are not damaged by mildew.   In the tropics, my bilge has always been dry.  I have never seen any condensation.  Your hatches are almost always wide open in the tropics so if it is humid and there is a lot of moisture in the air, there is nothing you can do about it unless you are on a superyacht and can run an air conditioner.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Condensation is fresh water and will tend to wash the bilge clean of salt.   If one wants to reduce condensation, one can reduce air circulation into the bilge by mainly covering it.   I know G_B said this, but it is worth saying again:  If there is any condensation happening in the tropics, it is acting as a FREE, ZERO ELECTRICITY de-humidifier for the rest of the boat THAT CANNOT FAIL, and will NEVER NEED REPLACEMENT PARTS.   Button up the boat, have a small electric bilge pump to keep the bilge dry and the humidity in the rest of the boat goes down.   In temperate climates, with cold water, having bilge condensation will aggressively dry the air in the boat.  Using a heater/wood stove will make the inside of the boat very dry.   I have no idea why anyone would glass in their bilge.       Matt#ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 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#ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-174537240 #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939 .ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-174537240ygrps-yiv-1698251939ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32400|32395|2015-03-26 17:20:50|brentswain38|Re: Dry Bilge|You have no guarantee how watertight the glass is remaining , until it starts suddenly giving you problems. A lot of damage could be done by the time it starts to show.I found that  putting a carpet down from fall to spring reduces condensation in the bilge by 80%.Insulating the underside of floor boards also helps a lot. That insulation is not sitting in water , soaking it up.| 32401|2346|2015-03-27 08:44:54|smallboatvoyaguer|Bulwark Caps| Yo, Should the bulwark caps be fully welded to the edge of the hull plate before pulling the half hulls into shape, or just tacked?  Also, I'm using stainless bulwark caps, and am wondering if people have been using stainless rods, or the 7024's for welding these to the plates.-M| 32402|32402|2015-03-27 08:47:30|smallboatvoyaguer|Priming underside of stringers| Should I be priming the stringers before I tack them to the plates? I've seen that that is what Kim did with his boat, with the thought that paint won't get underneath the stringers once they are tacked in place.  Thoughts?| 32403|2346|2015-03-27 13:24:42|James Pronk|Re: Bulwark Caps|On the small stuff that I've built that is stainless to mild steel, I've used 309L stainless rod. I was able to get a lot of it free and now I have a source of it very cheap. I know it is expensive but not sure how much it is?James| 32404|32402|2015-03-27 13:37:31|James Pronk|Re: Priming underside of stringers|Mill scale in a salt water environment will rust badly from what I've read. Is this right? That's why Brent likes using wheel abraded and primed steel. If you sandblast after you build there can still be mill scale under the stringers and under the angle iron. I know this from building railing here in Ontario where they salt the hell out of the roads. Anywhere two pieces of steel are butted together and not fully welded, in time will get pushed apart with rust between them. It takes some time, 20 years plus, but I don't know how long it would take on a boat floating in salt water?James| 32405|2346|2015-03-27 13:44:22|Matt Malone|Re: Bulwark Caps| At Princess Auto, they have 309L only in the smallest clear square tubes (500grams?) for $20.   http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/309-309l-3-32-in-welding-electrodes/A-p8146631eI have not bought any yet, I was looking for a better source.   I am imagining a more dedicated welding supply place would have them in larger quantities at least, for a lower unit price.   I feel like 500grams might be the minimum amount I would need to practice before producing better welds, so minimum $40 to accomplish anything.  I might consider such a small quantity if I had a re-orientable project I could bring to a table and work on in ideal conditions.   I am imagining that welding tubes onto a boat, in whatever orientation it was in would take a tremendous amount of practice with an unfamiliar rod, and, no guarantee that I would get good at it before going broke.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:24:41 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bulwark Caps   On the small stuff that I've built that is stainless to mild steel, I've used 309L stainless rod. I was able to get a lot of it free and now I have a source of it very cheap. I know it is expensive but not sure how much it is?James | 32406|2346|2015-03-27 17:08:30|brentswain38|Re: Bulwark Caps|Yes fully weld the inside to the hull plate, while it is flat on the ground. The outside can be welded after it is pulled together. I only welded the outside at the stanchions and chain plates, on my boat.. No problem in 30 years.7024 on stainless will crack easily. We tried 7018 , mild steel to stainless and whacked the shit out of it ,and couldnt get it to break, but I would prefer a bit of stainles weld every few feet and at the stanchions and chain plates where there is a high load. We did have  a bit of that 7018 SS to mild steel weld crack once.| 32407|32402|2015-03-27 17:11:32|brentswain38|Re: Priming underside of stringers|It sure wouldn't hurt to grind the mill scale off and prime under the stringers.I get all mine shotblasted and primed from the source.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Should I be priming the stringers before I tack them to the plates? I've seen that that is what Kim did with his boat, with the thought that paint won't get underneath the stringers once they are tacked in place.  Thoughts?| 32408|32402|2015-03-27 17:15:28|brentswain38|Re: Priming underside of stringers|I remember seeing a steel Y section, used as fence posts. That would have a huge advantage as stringers. It would give you the stiffness of angle or T section, but be far easier to get paint behind . Dont know how available it is, or if it is available  in 20 ft lengths.| 32409|2346|2015-03-30 16:05:21|Alex Bar|Re: Bulwark Caps|I wonder if welding the long pipe only on one side while the sheet is flat on the ground makes sheet edge distortions...alex2015-03-27 22:08 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Yes fully weld the inside to the hull plate, while it is flat on the ground. The outside can be welded after it is pulled together. I only welded the outside at the stanchions and chain plates, on my boat.. No problem in 30 years.7024 on stainless will crack easily. We tried 7018 , mild steel to stainless and whacked the shit out of it ,and couldnt get it to break, but I would prefer a bit of stainles weld every few feet and at the stanchions and chain plates where there is a high load. We did have  a bit of that 7018 SS to mild steel weld crack once. | 32410|32402|2015-03-30 16:07:48|Alex Bar|Re: Priming underside of stringers|Yes, but how would  Y stringers section bend all togheter while pulling the half shell? And what size?alex2015-03-27 22:15 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   I remember seeing a steel Y section, used as fence posts. That would have a huge advantage as stringers. It would give you the stiffness of angle or T section, but be far easier to get paint behind . Dont know how available it is, or if it is available  in 20 ft lengths. | 32411|2346|2015-03-31 00:04:58|Aaron|Re: Bulwark Caps|AlexYou still skip weld it 4 inches every foot the repeat until each bull rail is completeaaron  From: "Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bulwark Caps   I wonder if welding the long pipe only on one side while the sheet is flat on the ground makes sheet edge distortions...alex2015-03-27 22:08 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Yes fully weld the inside to the hull plate, while it is flat on the ground. The outside can be welded after it is pulled together. I only welded the outside at the stanchions and chain plates, on my boat.. No problem in 30 years.7024 on stainless will crack easily. We tried 7018 , mild steel to stainless and whacked the shit out of it ,and couldnt get it to break, but I would prefer a bit of stainles weld every few feet and at the stanchions and chain plates where there is a high load. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1557694781 #ygrps-yiv-1557694781yiv9761143447 #ygrps-yiv-1557694781yiv9761143447ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1557694781 #ygrps-yiv-1557694781yiv9761143447 #ygrps-yiv-1557694781yiv9761143447ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1557694781 | 32412|32402|2015-03-31 00:45:25|wild_explorer|Re: Priming underside of stringers|Looks like these fencing Y-posts are available for AU and NZ market (3-4.5mm) with maximum length about 8-10 ft.Brent, have you consider using angles laid on both edges or square/rectangular tubing? I saw both are used as stringers for steel boats. Tubing has pro and cons, but may have advantage maintenance wise. T-section is more expensive compare to angles commonly used in construction. Angles, FB, strips have different price per Lb based on how widely it used (more popular - less price).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I remember seeing a steel Y section, used as fence posts. That would have a huge advantage as stringers. It would give you the stiffness of angle or T section, but be far easier to get paint behind . Dont know how available it is, or if it is available  in 20 ft lengths.| 32413|32402|2015-03-31 08:21:09|theboilerflue|Re: Priming underside of stringers|I'm I undertanding that right? A thread started by saying angle iron is hard to paint underneath, then a suggestion to use metal that is comletely closed in so you can't paint it at all? NO thats a bad idea.| 32414|32402|2015-03-31 08:53:11|James Pronk|Re: Priming underside of stringers|Pipe and tubing will rust from the inside out unless it is galvanized or has no air in it.James| 32415|32402|2015-03-31 11:02:53|wild_explorer|Re: Priming underside of stringers|The stringers only tacked to the plates anyway. Contact points (hill-stringer) not fully airtight welded from both sides prone to rust in any case. It is impossible to clean and paint contact surfaces later. Priming plate and stringers helps, but after tacking primer will be burned around tacks (and under the stringer). Re-priming welded area helps, but not completely guarantee corrosion-free inviroment. Water can get between stringers and plate as well. Heavy tar painting along contact seam? It might be cracked later due to load/flex on the hull plate.Flat bar stringers have less contact area to the plate and easy to maintain (as I remember, Brent switched to angle only to reduce vertical profile). Less contact area stringer/plate is questionable advantage.Y-profile, angle-on-edges, channel - will create more unaccessable area under the stringer with concentrated load (edge). On other hand, square/rectangular tube can be capped at the ends with air tight welds - no rust inside out. Flat side of the tube gives more stringer/hull contact area - less concentrated load on a plate, but more contact area stringer/hull for possible rust.As I understand, only way to avoid possibility of a corrosion between stringer and hull is to fully airtight weld stringer to a plate.P.S. To minimize rust under stringers, you may clean plate where stringers are going to be with flap disk, prime that area, prime stringers. After tacking clean welds, use TSP and air to prepare for re-priming, prime. I was using galvanizing primer in a spray can to paint. Spray goes between stringer and plate if there are some gaps left.| 32416|2346|2015-03-31 16:29:22|brentswain38|Re: Bulwark Caps|It shrinks the edges which looks like distortion,  until you lift the ends up while pulling it together. Then it transforms itself into a slight compound curve in the topsides plate. For that reason, its a good idea to weld the longitudinals on before fully welding the bulwark cap on.| 32417|32402|2015-03-31 16:30:23|brentswain38|Re: Priming underside of stringers|They would bend pretty much the same as the angles do---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, but how would  Y stringers section bend all togheter while pulling the half shell? And what size?alex2015-03-27 22:15 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  I remember seeing a steel Y section, used as fence posts. That would have a huge advantage as stringers. It would give you the stiffness of angle or T section, but be far easier to get paint behind . Dont know how available it is, or if it is available  in 20 ft lengths.| 32418|32402|2015-03-31 16:39:04|brentswain38|Re: Priming underside of stringers|An angle laid down has a fraction the stiffness of one upright on one leg, and it corrodes like hell where you cant paint it. I have seen a boat rust out severely behind such an angle, laid flat. Square tubing would  have the same problem, only more so.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Looks like these fencing Y-posts are available for AU and NZ market (3-4.5mm) with maximum length about 8-10 ft.Brent, have you consider using angles laid on both edges or square/rectangular tubing? I saw both are used as stringers for steel boats. Tubing has pro and cons, but may have advantage maintenance wise. T-section is more expensive compare to angles commonly used in construction. Angles, FB, strips have different price per Lb based on how widely it used (more popular - less price).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I remember seeing a steel Y section, used as fence posts. That would have a huge advantage as stringers. It would give you the stiffness of angle or T section, but be far easier to get paint behind . Dont know how available it is, or if it is available  in 20 ft lengths.| 32419|32402|2015-03-31 16:39:42|brentswain38|Re: Priming underside of stringers|I have had no corrosion problems between a stringer and hull plate, in nearly 40 years. The edges of angles tend to be rounder than the edges of flat bar, minimizing contact and paint exclusion. Angles are far stiffer and stronger than flat bar. A 2 inch weld on alternating sides, every 4 inches is plenty of weld for stringers.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The stringers only tacked to the plates anyway. Contact points (hill-stringer) not fully airtight welded from both sides prone to rust in any case. It is impossible to clean and paint contact surfaces later. Priming plate and stringers helps, but after tacking primer will be burned around tacks (and under the stringer). Re-priming welded area helps, but not completely guarantee corrosion-free inviroment. Water can get between stringers and plate as well. Heavy tar painting along contact seam? It might be cracked later due to load/flex on the hull plate.Flat bar stringers have less contact area to the plate and easy to maintain (as I remember, Brent switched to angle only to reduce vertical profile). Less contact area stringer/plate is questionable advantage.Y-profile, angle-on-edges, channel - will create more unaccessable area under the stringer with concentrated load (edge). On other hand, square/rectangular tube can be capped at the ends with air tight welds - no rust inside out. Flat side of the tube gives more stringer/hull contact area - less concentrated load on a plate, but more contact area stringer/hull for possible rust.As I understand, only way to avoid possibility of a corrosion between stringer and hull is to fully airtight weld stringer to a plate.P.S. To minimize rust under stringers, you may clean plate where stringers are going to be with flap disk, prime that area, prime stringers. After tacking clean welds, use TSP and air to prepare for re-priming, prime. I was using galvanizing primer in a spray can to paint. Spray goes between stringer and plate if there are some gaps left.| 32420|32402|2015-04-01 00:24:31|wild_explorer|Re: Priming underside of stringers|As I understand, stiffness/deflection of the shape is proportional to its calculated Moment of inertia.In this case 1/8x1x1 tube has the same stiffness as 1/4x1x1 angle. 1/4x1.25 FB is stiffer on edge than 1/4x1x1 angle, but less in another direction. It just depends what direction the stiffness is needed.I can see why equal sides angle is used for stringer. It has properties similar to square tube.There is good online calculator which allows to calculate Moment of inertia for common structural shapes:Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, centroid, section modulus Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, cent... Free online Calculator for civil and mechanical engineers to find area moment of inertia, centroid, section modulus, radius of gyration of plane section of str... View on civilengineer.webinfo... Preview by Yahoo  Its results  could be used to calculate deflection of a beam from different materials as well.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Angles are far stiffer and stronger than flat bar.| 32421|32402|2015-04-02 18:06:40|don bourgeois|Re: Priming underside of stringers-Car Undercoating-rustproofing| Is there any reason you couldn't do a final coat of wax-based auto undercoating on the stringers and other interior areas after they have been coated with coal tar epoxy or similar. I use it on all sorts of outdoor items made of metal after painting. Waxoyl was the original brand but there are lots of others available now. You local autobody supplier carries them. I usually spray it on using a primer gun but there are lots of dedicated spray guns for undercoating out there (Princess Auto.)   The advantage as I see it is the ability for the spray to be blown into tight areas and it also can creep into spaces and self seal. Price is reasonable too.   Worth a shot??   Don B.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Priming underside of stringers     As I understand, stiffness/deflection of the shape is proportional to its calculated Moment of inertia. In this case 1/8x1x1 tube has the same stiffness as 1/4x1x1 angle. 1/4x1.25 FB is stiffer on edge than 1/4x1x1 angle, but less in another direction. It just depends what direction the stiffness is needed. I can see why equal sides angle is used for stringer. It has properties similar to square tube. There is good online calculator which allows to calculate Moment of inertia for common structural shapes: Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, centroid, section modulus       Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, cent... Free online Calculator for civil and mechanical engineers to find area moment of inertia, centroid, section modulus, radius of gyration of plane section of str...   View on civilengineer.webinfo... Preview by Yahoo     Its results  could be used to calculate deflection of a beam from different materials as well. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote : Angles are far stiffer and stronger than flat bar. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4321/9428 - Release Date: 04/01/15 | 32422|32402|2015-04-02 21:13:16|Aaron|Re: Priming underside of stringers-Car Undercoating-rustproofing|DonHow well will the waxoyl hold up to the hot spray foam?Aaron  From: "'don bourgeois' donb1234@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Priming underside of stringers-Car Undercoating-rustproofing   Is there any reason you couldn't do a final coat of wax-based auto undercoating on the stringers and other interior areas after they have been coated with coal tar epoxy or similar. I use it on all sorts of outdoor items made of metal after painting. Waxoyl was the original brand but there are lots of others available now. You local autobody supplier carries them. I usually spray it on using a primer gun but there are lots of dedicated spray guns for undercoating out there (Princess Auto.)   The advantage as I see it is the ability for the spray to be blown into tight areas and it also can creep into spaces and self seal. Price is reasonable too.   Worth a shot??   Don B.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Priming underside of stringers     As I understand, stiffness/deflection of the shape is proportional to its calculated Moment of inertia. In this case 1/8x1x1 tube has the same stiffness as 1/4x1x1 angle. 1/4x1.25 FB is stiffer on edge than 1/4x1x1 angle, but less in another direction. It just depends what direction the stiffness is needed. I can see why equal sides angle is used for stringer. It has properties similar to square tube. There is good online calculator which allows to calculate Moment of inertia for common structural shapes: Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, centroid, section modulus       Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, cent... Free online Calculator for civil and mechanical engineers to find area moment of inertia, centroid, section modulus, radius of gyration of plane section of str...   View on civilengineer.webinfo... Preview by Yahoo     Its results  could be used to calculate deflection of a beam from different materials as well. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote : Angles are far stiffer and stronger than flat bar. No virus found in this message. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1174010248 #ygrps-yiv-1174010248yiv4991500288 #ygrps-yiv-1174010248yiv4991500288ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1174010248 #ygrps-yiv-1174010248yiv4991500288 #ygrps-yiv-1174010248yiv4991500288ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1174010248 | 32423|32367|2015-04-03 00:25:22|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin| 32424|32367|2015-04-03 09:12:43|garyhlucas|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| Just a comment here.  All the discussion about the strength of various shapes have so far ignored an important point.  When an angle gets welded to the hull the resulting shape, essentially a channel is what determines the stiffness. A T shape welded to the hull produces an I Beam. The web of the T contributes only a little of the strength, it is really just a spacer for the top of the T.  The farther from the hull the top of the T is the greater the stiffness.  Simple demo of this principle.  Take a board and support it from both ends and note the deflection when you put a load that the center.  Put a second identical board on top, the deflection will be about half as much.  Drive a couple of nails through the board at both ends only, and suddenly it is about 4 times stiffer! Gary H. Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 12:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers     I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me. Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4". Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would. Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull?I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin | 32425|32367|2015-04-03 10:12:12|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Gary,I believe, you are taking about different load cases for beam deflection for pointed load at the middle. Free supported ends vs. fixed ends. Difference in  deflection 4 times.But this is deflection of the beam, which will be different for another load case (same beam, one free supported end and one fixed end - deflection difference is about 2 times compare to first case).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Just a comment here.  All the discussion about the strength of various shapes have so far ignored an important point.  When an angle gets welded to the hull the resulting shape, essentially a channel is what determines the stiffness. A T shape welded to the hull produces an I Beam. The web of the T contributes only a little of the strength, it is really just a spacer for the top of the T.  The farther from the hull the top of the T is the greater the stiffness.  Simple demo of this principle.  Take a board and support it from both ends and note the deflection when you put a load that the center.  Put a second identical board on top, the deflection will be about half as much.  Drive a couple of nails through the board at both ends only, and suddenly it is about 4 times stiffer!Gary H. Lucas | 32426|32367|2015-04-03 10:29:38|Matt Malone|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| When the stringers are welded to the hull and the hull is curved, the stringers are no longer flexing about their center plane but about a plane likely very close to the mid-plane of the hull skin.   Therefore their sectional moment of inertia (about their own center-plane of bending) is no longer the important quantity.  The reason for this is, the plane of bending of the stringer-hull system is at the extreme of the stringer section.  In general, physically smaller solid sections will be more flexible when bent about an extreme plane than larger more open or flanged sections with the same Ixx about their mid-planes.  The more expansive and thin the section, the more of an effect this is.   Doing it the way Brent has in the past is the only method that a history of service supports.   How much can the recommended stringer material possibly cost in the grand scheme of things ?  If you are satisfied with the history of service of previous Brent origami boats, and you find that acceptable for your safety, then make your boat the same.  If you want to make a modification and are satisfied with Brent's word that something is suitable, based on his experience, then that is your choice.  Doing calculations that Brent has never done, and doing them improperly, in a system that has never been subject to proper numerical analysis is just a fancy way of fooling yourself.    If you keep doing it, and asking Brent if it is OK, you will eventually find the limits of the insight he has gained from experience and no proper calculations.   There are plenty of old things in service today that were never properly analysed by modern standards.  Historical architects and engineers were not repeatedly asked to extend stretch and modify without end.  They built one, it worked and has worked, some now for hundreds of years.  Modern civil engineers do not get tied up in knots about these old things that work, but, they also do not go around changing them either.   If you are convinced it works, leave it alone.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:25:21 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin | 32427|32367|2015-04-03 12:36:58|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] RE: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers|This way of developing technical solutions used to be called "caftsmanship", something constantly fading away with industrial mass production under the economical precondition of "controlled obsolescence".You can find this sort of craftsmanship still very lively in "underdeveloped" countries, where maintaining mechanics and builders of any sort of technical stuff do have to cope with a general lack of advanced fancy spares and cheaply die-cut high-tech-throw-away parts from crappy materials, what forces them to know about the physical principles without knowing exact numbers and calculations.Using mild steel, mostly hand-tools and a stickwelder and still come out with a sailboat to cruise on for decades definitely counts as top notch craftsmanship for me.SV-Seeker's Doug philosophically put it in one of his hilarious videos as "if we try long enough in any different way we can think of, we will run out of wrong ways eventually!" In the case of Origami steelboats a reasonable number of the lesser wise ways were already sorted out earlier by pioneers like Brent, and all without using finite elements method, I'd suppose. Cheers G_BAm 03.04.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   When the stringers are welded to the hull and the hull is curved, the stringers are no longer flexing about their center plane but about a plane likely very close to the mid-plane of the hull skin.   Therefore their sectional moment of inertia (about their own center-plane of bending) is no longer the important quantity.  The reason for this is, the plane of bending of the stringer-hull system is at the extreme of the stringer section.  In general, physically smaller solid sections will be more flexible when bent about an extreme plane than larger more open or flanged sections with the same Ixx about their mid-planes.  The more expansive and thin the section, the more of an effect this is.   Doing it the way Brent has in the past is the only method that a history of service supports.   How much can the recommended stringer material possibly cost in the grand scheme of things ?  If you are satisfied with the history of service of previous Brent origami boats, and you find that acceptable for your safety, then make your boat the same.  If you want to make a modification and are satisfied with Brent's word that something is suitable, based on his experience, then that is your choice.  Doing calculations that Brent has never done, and doing them improperly, in a system that has never been subject to proper numerical analysis is just a fancy way of fooling yourself.    If you keep doing it, and asking Brent if it is OK, you will eventually find the limits of the insight he has gained from experience and no proper calculations.   There are plenty of old things in service today that were never properly analysed by modern standards.  Historical architects and engineers were not repeatedly asked to extend stretch and modify without end.  They built one, it worked and has worked, some now for hundreds of years.  Modern civil engineers do not get tied up in knots about these old things that work, but, they also do not go around changing them either.   If you are convinced it works, leave it alone.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:25:21 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin | 32428|32367|2015-04-03 12:41:21|Alex Bar|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Matt, I wonder if longitudinals have just a shape manteining function and nothing else. I mean, maybe for a 30/40 footer the metal sheets have sufficient strenght itself. If I think about a fibeglass yacht, same size, probabily fully calculated by engineers with the most advanced softwear, there is no way the strenght of a metal yacht. No way, and most of them era licenced for no limit and blu water sailing. So what is the rule? What are we talking about? What do we mean for calculations of the strenght?alex2015-04-03 16:29 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   When the stringers are welded to the hull and the hull is curved, the stringers are no longer flexing about their center plane but about a plane likely very close to the mid-plane of the hull skin.   Therefore their sectional moment of inertia (about their own center-plane of bending) is no longer the important quantity.  The reason for this is, the plane of bending of the stringer-hull system is at the extreme of the stringer section.  In general, physically smaller solid sections will be more flexible when bent about an extreme plane than larger more open or flanged sections with the same Ixx about their mid-planes.  The more expansive and thin the section, the more of an effect this is.   Doing it the way Brent has in the past is the only method that a history of service supports.   How much can the recommended stringer material possibly cost in the grand scheme of things ?  If you are satisfied with the history of service of previous Brent origami boats, and you find that acceptable for your safety, then make your boat the same.  If you want to make a modification and are satisfied with Brent's word that something is suitable, based on his experience, then that is your choice.  Doing calculations that Brent has never done, and doing them improperly, in a system that has never been subject to proper numerical analysis is just a fancy way of fooling yourself.    If you keep doing it, and asking Brent if it is OK, you will eventually find the limits of the insight he has gained from experience and no proper calculations.   There are plenty of old things in service today that were never properly analysed by modern standards.  Historical architects and engineers were not repeatedly asked to extend stretch and modify without end.  They built one, it worked and has worked, some now for hundreds of years.  Modern civil engineers do not get tied up in knots about these old things that work, but, they also do not go around changing them either.   If you are convinced it works, leave it alone.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:25:21 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin | 32429|32367|2015-04-03 13:07:32|Matt Malone|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| Alex,You would have to ask Brent what he meant them to do.  Then separately, one would have to do some calculations to figure out what they really are doing.   I have never personally formed a half-hull with the stringers on it, but, looking at the photos, it seems they are being put into compression, putting the hull skin locally into tension and therefore, they are doing something.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 18:36:09 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   Matt, I wonder if longitudinals have just a shape manteining function and nothing else. I mean, maybe for a 30/40 footer the metal sheets have sufficient strenght itself. If I think about a fibeglass yacht, same size, probabily fully calculated by engineers with the most advanced softwear, there is no way the strenght of a metal yacht. No way, and most of them era licenced for no limit and blu water sailing. So what is the rule? What are we talking about? What do we mean for calculations of the strenght?alex2015-04-03 16:29 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   When the stringers are welded to the hull and the hull is curved, the stringers are no longer flexing about their center plane but about a plane likely very close to the mid-plane of the hull skin.   Therefore their sectional moment of inertia (about their own center-plane of bending) is no longer the important quantity.  The reason for this is, the plane of bending of the stringer-hull system is at the extreme of the stringer section.  In general, physically smaller solid sections will be more flexible when bent about an extreme plane than larger more open or flanged sections with the same Ixx about their mid-planes.  The more expansive and thin the section, the more of an effect this is.   Doing it the way Brent has in the past is the only method that a history of service supports.   How much can the recommended stringer material possibly cost in the grand scheme of things ?  If you are satisfied with the history of service of previous Brent origami boats, and you find that acceptable for your safety, then make your boat the same.  If you want to make a modification and are satisfied with Brent's word that something is suitable, based on his experience, then that is your choice.  Doing calculations that Brent has never done, and doing them improperly, in a system that has never been subject to proper numerical analysis is just a fancy way of fooling yourself.    If you keep doing it, and asking Brent if it is OK, you will eventually find the limits of the insight he has gained from experience and no proper calculations.   There are plenty of old things in service today that were never properly analysed by modern standards.  Historical architects and engineers were not repeatedly asked to extend stretch and modify without end.  They built one, it worked and has worked, some now for hundreds of years.  Modern civil engineers do not get tied up in knots about these old things that work, but, they also do not go around changing them either.   If you are convinced it works, leave it alone.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:25:21 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin | 32430|32367|2015-04-03 15:03:29|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Originally, I got interested in stiffness/deflection for another reason. I was looking what to use as "temporary" walking support frame. 10ft 4x4 lumber(3-1/2x3-1/2 in reality) has proved to be sturdy enough laying on bulwark pipe (free supported ends with 200Lb pointed load at center). So, I started to look what material has similar stiffness/deflection.4x4 lumber - 2.98 Lb/ft2" sch40 pipe - 3.65 Lb/ft1/4x2x2 angle - need 2 side by side??? to get similar stiffness (3.19 Lb/ft x 2 = 6.38).1/4x2-1/2x2-1/2 angle - 4.1 Lb/ftPrice per foot and later usability play some role as well. I can see why Brent is using thicker material - easier to weld and less effect of weakening the material due to undercut/burn-through. Problem with wood - you can cut it, but hard to join it back together to gain the same strength ;)).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1752533944 #ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492 .ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1752533944 #ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492 .ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Doing it the way Brent has in the past is the only method that a history of service supports.   How much can the recommended stringer material possibly cost in the grand scheme of things ? #ygrps-yiv-1752533944 #ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492 .ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1752533944 #ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492 .ygrps-yiv-1752533944ygrps-yiv-1611716492ExternalClass 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32431|32367|2015-04-04 02:09:11|Hannu Venermo|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Today, there is no way to actually calculate the strength of either metal of fiberglass goats. All sorts of calculations are done on masses and sections, and various moments and stability etc. In truth, the finite element methods cannot yet calculate the strength of a boat. 3 experts with different or the same sw can get different results for the "strength" of a boat. These results can vary by over 300% (in some other test cases). Its mostly experience, and a rule book called scantlings, that actually tell you how big the stringers should be in a metal boat. These are derived from experience, and are nowhere near accurate. Possible lawsuits are much more important to the builders, than optimising the methods. This is mostly driven by the US market, where legal practice had resulted in the current system. About half of all recreational boats, in the world, are sold in the Us market. Thus, the us market drives the whole industry. Naval architects and classification societies accept somthing like "industry practice" or "other methods proven satisfactory". This means that Brent boats, for example, are "proven safe" by over 30 years experience. On 03/04/2015 18:36, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > No way, and most of them era licenced for no limit and blu water > sailing. So what is the rule? What are we talking about? What do we > mean for calculations of the strenght? > alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32432|32367|2015-04-04 04:22:58|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Once we put around 60 strain gauges around an experimental cored fiberglass sandwich hull a German Yacht producer supplied to our laboratory.The hull was readily fitted out outside and absolutely empty inside (beside the bulkheads), so we had access to any area of the hull to place the strain gauges; customer was keen to learn where the load will peak while sailing hard.What we found were the specific "weak" or loaded areas experienced boatbuilders without academic background pointed out beforehand.A lot of this is simply logic, like the area the chainplates were laminated in, the keelson ends, fore and aft stay-ends, and some peaks were quite unexpectedly located right within the plain hull area, some when beating close-hauled, some others when running straight downwind over a chop.Only thing we could do in terms of telling the customer was a mere experimental validation of what the weathered boatbuilders at the corporation already had estimated: No potential to further reduce the amount of built-in material without changing to a much stronger sort of fibers and/or fabrics, otherwise the hull would become prone to failure.So going lightweight would force a stronger boundary layer of the sandwich-composite, what will bring other trouble like quickly increasing stabbing hazard, for example.Same with steel Origamis off Brent methode, I subsume, the construction developed over years won't show a lot of big surprises as long as built "traditionally", even with some minor changes to the geometry of stringer material.Furthur, I second Hannu's idea that the lawyers have partially somewhat more influence than craftsmen these days, at least in corporational build of big chunks of gear, for a lot of  solicitor's ransom lies buried in hasseling corporations into PR disasters.Those disasters, like the veritable starter lock-gate with GM these days for example, are a nice'n'proven way for sharky lawyers to exercise their sort of legalitarian extortional robbery.G_BAm 04.04.2015 um 08:09 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]:   Today, there is no way to actually calculate the strength of either metal of fiberglass goats. All sorts of calculations are done on masses and sections, and various moments and stability etc. In truth, the finite element methods cannot yet calculate the strength of a boat. 3 experts with different or the same sw can get different results for the "strength" of a boat. These results can vary by over 300% (in some other test cases). Its mostly experience, and a rule book called scantlings, that actually tell you how big the stringers should be in a metal boat. These are derived from experience, and are nowhere near accurate. Possible lawsuits are much more important to the builders, than optimising the methods. This is mostly driven by the US market, where legal practice had resulted in the current system. About half of all recreational boats, in the world, are sold in the Us market. Thus, the us market drives the whole industry. Naval architects and classification societies accept somthing like "industry practice" or "other methods proven satisfactory". This means that Brent boats, for example, are "proven safe" by over 30 years experience. On 03/04/2015 18:36, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > No way, and most of them era licenced for no limit and blu water > sailing. So what is the rule? What are we talking about? What do we > mean for calculations of the strenght? > alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32433|32367|2015-04-04 13:54:48|Matt Malone|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| Giuseppe,I too have done a lot of strain gauge work.  Strain gauges are small and expensive.  20 strain gauges is a lot of strain gauges and, that will measure the strain on an area the size of a postage stamp, out of the entire hull.  Shells can have wave-like variations in strain near boundaries/attachments -- move the gauge over a bit, measure nothing.   I suspect you placed the strain gauges where the experienced boat builders expected problems, based on seeing past failures.   I suspect you never put the strain gauges where you never expected a problem and did not know there was a problem.   Strain gauges are really good for checking something you already suspect, not so good at finding what you did not suspect in advance.   Hannu, if people are using proper finite element analysis and are getting 300% different stresses, then, there is something wrong with their programs or their models.   Finite elements make a stiffness matrix K, like a many-headed spring, and then stretch it by a strain and from strain compute the force or stress.   Energy = 1/2 stress * strain.  One cannot have the stresses 300% different over the entire shell without the energy being very different in the different models and that just violates the basic math of how finite elements works.    There are a lot of finite element "bus drivers", not many specialists who understand what is going on inside and make their models properly to get the right answers.   Finite elements is not goof-proof.   Now, after one gets the model right, and gets equivalent numbers on equivalent programs, there is a huge question of what is strength.   Cut a little coupon, put it in a machine and stretch it until it breaks is a very simplistic strength.   It is all about force.   Strength vs. being dropped off a wave or being struck broad-side by a breaking wave have a lot more to do with energy.  The forces involved depend on flexibility -- flexibility is good for impact strength.   If one values a structure that returns to its original shape after the impact, fibreglass with its huge ability to stretch and its low stiffness can be beat around like a rubber ball, never creating the high stresses and concentrations that a stiffer material like steel produces internally.    Fibreglass is obviously not as good at abrasion, and, if you are willing to have a steel boat be dented, the steel can take a real beating too, and look like it took a real beating afterward.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 10:22:51 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   Once we put around 60 strain gauges around an experimental cored fiberglass sandwich hull a German Yacht producer supplied to our laboratory.The hull was readily fitted out outside and absolutely empty inside (beside the bulkheads), so we had access to any area of the hull to place the strain gauges; customer was keen to learn where the load will peak while sailing hard.What we found were the specific "weak" or loaded areas experienced boatbuilders without academic background pointed out beforehand.A lot of this is simply logic, like the area the chainplates were laminated in, the keelson ends, fore and aft stay-ends, and some peaks were quite unexpectedly located right within the plain hull area, some when beating close-hauled, some others when running straight downwind over a chop.Only thing we could do in terms of telling the customer was a mere experimental validation of what the weathered boatbuilders at the corporation already had estimated: No potential to further reduce the amount of built-in material without changing to a much stronger sort of fibers and/or fabrics, otherwise the hull would become prone to failure.So going lightweight would force a stronger boundary layer of the sandwich-composite, what will bring other trouble like quickly increasing stabbing hazard, for example.Same with steel Origamis off Brent methode, I subsume, the construction developed over years won't show a lot of big surprises as long as built "traditionally", even with some minor changes to the geometry of stringer material.Furthur, I second Hannu's idea that the lawyers have partially somewhat more influence than craftsmen these days, at least in corporational build of big chunks of gear, for a lot of  solicitor's ransom lies buried in hasseling corporations into PR disasters.Those disasters, like the veritable starter lock-gate with GM these days for example, are a nice'n'proven way for sharky lawyers to exercise their sort of legalitarian extortional robbery.G_BAm 04.04.2015 um 08:09 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]:   Today, there is no way to actually calculate the strength of either metal of fiberglass goats. All sorts of calculations are done on masses and sections, and various moments and stability etc. In truth, the finite element methods cannot yet calculate the strength of a boat. 3 experts with different or the same sw can get different results for the "strength" of a boat. These results can vary by over 300% (in some other test cases). Its mostly experience, and a rule book called scantlings, that actually tell you how big the stringers should be in a metal boat. These are derived from experience, and are nowhere near accurate. Possible lawsuits are much more important to the builders, than optimising the methods. This is mostly driven by the US market, where legal practice had resulted in the current system. About half of all recreational boats, in the world, are sold in the Us market. Thus, the us market drives the whole industry. Naval architects and classification societies accept somthing like "industry practice" or "other methods proven satisfactory". This means that Brent boats, for example, are "proven safe" by over 30 years experience. On 03/04/2015 18:36, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > No way, and most of them era licenced for no limit and blu water > sailing. So what is the rule? What are we talking about? What do we > mean for calculations of the strenght? > alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32434|32367|2015-04-04 14:45:33|Hannu Venermo|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| Yes, and no. And my 300% comes from people who are experts at that stuff.. Of COURSE there is something wrong with their models. The problem is simply that we cannot take a steel boat, and model it accurately. Simple stresses, yes. We have known how to calculate these for ages, about a 100 years iirc. Statics etc. are pretty simple on basic structures. A beam, bridge, bearing loads etc. Where the models fail, is when skin stresses/strengths become significant. Like the origami, where the fact that the skin is a major part of the strength, is not easily modeled with current methods. Some spectacular examples are the 100M$ failure of one of the Oracle boats. And they were using the most advanced FEM sw available, and the best people. Numerous examples abound. I agree very much that "strength" is also a multi-faceted factor. In CNC machines FEM models are used extensively. I can confirm from a lot of factual experience, that its about 100% hokum. And yes, I know the people who designed the molds, and have plaid with the (solidworks) models in their office. FEM is used to confirm guesses on cast iron molds, which are designed based on past models, experience, and what other manufacturers are doing. It has some validity, in that it will shows obvious errors, and some use in that it accurately accounts for some results. "Some" is not analysis by FEM. I know from other peple in the industry, that their experiences with FEM are about the same. Tiny input changes affect the results dramatically. It is not at all clear to experts, what are the right inputs and how they should be used. The 300% variation is an actual factual data point * in some cases*. Engineering for accuracy measures worst case, not average, or "some" results that seem to be ok. The above all applies to FEM in boats and CNC machines- both of which are complex structures for many reasons. In the case of a bridge, house roof struss, etc. the loads and models are very good. These are "simple" structures in this context. A funny datum. CNC machines and machine tools in the 5000-10.000 kg mass are very lightly stressed/loaded. Even a small lathe (desktop, Say Schaublin 9x size at 200 kg) can actually take a load of perhaps 100 tons without damage. They are relatively massive to improve rigidity- not strength. Goals are about 7 kgf (70N) of force required to deflect by 1 micron, iirc. The oldest famous bridgeport milling machine, circa 1000 kg, will deflect about 0.02 mm (or more) with one fingertips pressure on the corner. The cast iron table is about 14 cm thick. Its considered a wet noodle by standards of current technique. If you tap a 6000 kg milling machine (=VMC) with your fist, when its running, it will deflect and leave a visible mark on the job. On 04/04/2015 19:54, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Hannu, if people are using proper finite element analysis and are getting 300% different stresses, then, there is something wrong with their programs or their models. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32435|32367|2015-04-04 15:05:43|Matt Malone|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| Hannu, There have been finite element programs that do dynamic membrane stresses properly (within 20%) for ages.  In 1986 I was running one on a Cray supercomputer, but now a good i7 pc would run that code no problem at all.  I was subjecting shells to blast loading.  Yes, two-phase, free-flowing, free floating is challenging but I doubt any expert in finite elements who cannot get within 300% of another expert in 2015.  Matt "Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Yes, and no. And my 300% comes from people who are experts at that stuff.. Of COURSE there is something wrong with their models. The problem is simply that we cannot take a steel boat, and model it accurately. Simple stresses, yes. We have known how to calculate these for ages, about a 100 years iirc. Statics etc. are pretty simple on basic structures. A beam, bridge, bearing loads etc. Where the models fail, is when skin stresses/strengths become significant. Like the origami, where the fact that the skin is a major part of the strength, is not easily modeled with current methods. Some spectacular examples are the 100M$ failure of one of the Oracle boats. And they were using the most advanced FEM sw available, and the best people. Numerous examples abound. I agree very much that "strength" is also a multi-faceted factor. In CNC machines FEM models are used extensively. I can confirm from a lot of factual experience, that its about 100% hokum. And yes, I know the people who designed the molds, and have plaid with the (solidworks) models in their office. FEM is used to confirm guesses on cast iron molds, which are designed based on past models, experience, and what other manufacturers are doing. It has some validity, in that it will shows obvious errors, and some use in that it accurately accounts for some results. "Some" is not analysis by FEM. I know from other peple in the industry, that their experiences with FEM are about the same. Tiny input changes affect the results dramatically. It is not at all clear to experts, what are the right inputs and how they should be used. The 300% variation is an actual factual data point * in some cases*. Engineering for accuracy measures worst case, not average, or "some" results that seem to be ok. The above all applies to FEM in boats and CNC machines- both of which are complex structures for many reasons. In the case of a bridge, house roof struss, etc. the loads and models are very good. These are "simple" structures in this context. A funny datum. CNC machines and machine tools in the 5000-10.000 kg mass are very lightly stressed/loaded. Even a small lathe (desktop, Say Schaublin 9x size at 200 kg) can actually take a load of perhaps 100 tons without damage. They are relatively massive to improve rigidity- not strength. Goals are about 7 kgf (70N) of force required to deflect by 1 micron, iirc. The oldest famous bridgeport milling machine, circa 1000 kg, will deflect about 0.02 mm (or more) with one fingertips pressure on the corner. The cast iron table is about 14 cm thick. Its considered a wet noodle by standards of current technique. If you tap a 6000 kg milling machine (=VMC) with your fist, when its running, it will deflect and leave a visible mark on the job. On 04/04/2015 19:54, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Hannu, if people are using proper finite element analysis and are getting 300% different stresses, then, there is something wrong with their programs or their models. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32436|32367|2015-04-04 18:53:28|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|*** Not directly related to Brentboat ***. Gentelmens, is it possible to calculate/estimate with your fancy software (or may be just using calculator) simplified example:Need to find what load/force need to apply to 120"x96"x3/16" plate do deflect it 6" (bulge of the arc) using comealong connected to the ends of the plate at the middle (along longer side).1. Just a plate2. Plate with 3  equally spaced 120" angles L1/4x1x13. Plate with 3 equally spaced 120" angles L1/4x1-1/4x1-1/44. Same case, but deflect plate 12".Is it correct that 3 stiffeners could be substituted by 1 (sum of 3 Is ???) at the middle to simplify calculation?I am just curious what will be the difference (different stiffeners and plate deflection).| 32437|32367|2015-04-04 20:56:27|Matt Malone|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| Willis,I cannot find an on-line calculator for 2 edges simply supported.  http://arxiv.org/pdf/1001.3016.pdfThat is the paper describing the calculations.  Most analytical plate theory is only valid for deflections that are a small fraction of the thickness of the plate.  With two ends supported and the two sides not, it seems one should get useful results for higher deflections, however, you are specifying a deflection of 32 times the thickness.Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 15:53:27 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   *** Not directly related to Brentboat ***. Gentelmens, is it possible to calculate/estimate with your fancy software (or may be just using calculator) simplified example:Need to find what load/force need to apply to 120"x96"x3/16" plate do deflect it 6" (bulge of the arc) using comealong connected to the ends of the plate at the middle (along longer side).1. Just a plate2. Plate with 3  equally spaced 120" angles L1/4x1x13. Plate with 3 equally spaced 120" angles L1/4x1-1/4x1-1/44. Same case, but deflect plate 12".Is it correct that 3 stiffeners could be substituted by 1 (sum of 3 Is ???) at the middle to simplify calculation?I am just curious what will be the difference (different stiffeners and plate deflection). | 32438|32367|2015-04-04 21:33:21|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Matt, would not beam deflection online calculator work in this case (for Plate with two opposite edges simply supported)?This calculator for example - it has bunch of load cases:Elastic beam deflection calculator Elastic beam deflection calculator Please enter in the applicable properties and values to be used in the calculation. IMPORTANT: UNITS MUST REMAIN CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT ALL V... View on www.aps.anl.gov Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-629026483 #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-629026483 #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Willis,I cannot find an on-line calculator for 2 edges simply supported.  http://arxiv.org/pdf/1001.3016.pdfThat is the paper describing the calculations.  Most analytical plate theory is only valid for deflections that are a small fraction of the thickness of the plate.  With two ends supported and the two sides not, it seems one should get useful results for higher deflections, however, you are specifying a deflection of 32 times the thickness.Matt #ygrps-yiv-629026483 #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ecxygrp-mkp { 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#ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-629026483 #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-629026483 #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-629026483 #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450 .ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-629026483ygrps-yiv-1588930450ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32439|32367|2015-04-04 23:25:43|Matt Malone|Re: Longitudinal Stringers| No Willis, plates are different.  Imagine a beam made of plasticine.  When you bend it in the depth direction, the width of the beam increases on the compression surface and decreases on the tension surface.  At the middle the cross-section of the beam takes on a trapezoid shape.   Plates are so wide and thin, this cannot happen.  It makes a thin plate more stiff than hundreds of narrow beams that add up to the same width.   Clearly there is a ratio of thickness(or depth) to width where neither plate theory nor beam theory works really well because the structure is between the two and becomes a little bit trapezoid in cross-section when bent.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 18:33:20 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   Matt, would not beam deflection online calculator work in this case (for Plate with two opposite edges simply supported)?This calculator for example - it has bunch of load cases:Elastic beam deflection calculator Elastic beam deflection calculator Please enter in the applicable properties and values to be used in the calculation. IMPORTANT: UNITS MUST REMAIN CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT ALL V... View on www.aps.anl.gov Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Willis,I cannot find an on-line calculator for 2 edges simply supported.  http://arxiv.org/pdf/1001.3016.pdfThat is the paper describing the calculations.  Most analytical plate theory is only valid for deflections that are a small fraction of the thickness of the plate.  With two ends supported and the two sides not, it seems one should get useful results for higher deflections, however, you are specifying a deflection of 32 times the thickness.Matt | 32440|32367|2015-04-05 01:49:53|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] RE: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Matt, well, just in short what we actually were searching for in the "stressed hull" compartment:Remember oneAustralia submerging in San Diego 1995?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYnEcPAhrucTheir hull gave in while beating close-hauled in a short chop, two nearly complete load-changes per wave with a third just beginning pretty rough stemwise, and in a sort of tensile loaded torsion way with 17 to 25 degrees heel.We saw about every video of this incident from every angel including two from up in the air an annoying number of times.Hull did NOT give in at one of the usually stressed "boundarys" like both ends of the fin, maststep, rudderpost, backstays terminal or something alike, but right in the middle of nowhere about a quarter to a third behind end of fin on the way to the rudderpost, where not even an "edge" like the V-shape in the frontend was to find.Quite some people in sailing sports around our customer seemingly were frightened back then what would happen to their hulls in a chop while beating hard after they had seen happening a complete failure with no obvious reason.The oneAustralia probably died from a temperature problem while baking prepreg, at least was this a suspicion we heard more than one time from people who were close to the project, as far as informations were to gain at all later on.But that sort of question was it what drove our customer to the expensive testing of his product.We also built, fatigue-tested and crashed integrated carbon fiber car-platforms a Bavarian Automotive Group wanted to use for a nice'n'lightweight prestige roadster.They went back to steel for the reason of by far more predictable ways of failure in case of an accident, and it wouldn't have looked so good to have pictures of rich people being dismembered by their expensive toys. Steel is way better in killing energy peaks when warped.The three roadster prototypes we actually crashed did very frightening things to the dummies, and next to nothing of what happened was seen beforehand on their computed crash models - those were thought out and molded for steel, of course.Back to the sailboat-playground:So, we did not find stress peaks at certain points in the middle of the sailing hull, but what we definitely could make visible were recurrent stress peaks going through the whole hull with load changes induced by the waves we bull-rode over, and the overlay of load change with torsion peaks while literally "beating" close hauled and heeled. Being well paid for sailing around with no deadlines was more fun than a lot of other things I did for my living the recent years.No rocket science, though, sailors do have profound knowledge of things like that for sure from their guts, but some people strictly insist on numbers, You know ....I do not, and never did, by the way, engineer or not ...G_B Am 04.04.2015 um 19:54 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   Giuseppe,I too have done a lot of strain gauge work.  Strain gauges are small and expensive.  20 strain gauges is a lot of strain gauges and, that will measure the strain on an area the size of a postage stamp, out of the entire hull.  Shells can have wave-like variations in strain near boundaries/attachments -- move the gauge over a bit, measure nothing.   I suspect you placed the strain gauges where the experienced boat builders expected problems, based on seeing past failures.   I suspect you never put the strain gauges where you never expected a problem and did not know there was a problem.   Strain gauges are really good for checking something you already suspect, not so good at finding what you did not suspect in advance.   . | 32441|32367|2015-04-05 04:02:32|Alex Bar|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Yes, "they are doing something", and there are tensions and compessions fore sure. And what is the difference between a precurved sheet (see round shells) or precurved frames or beams?I mean, both cases have tensions and stressed materials. Probabily in the origamy yachts tensions are permanent becouse not definitive while in the preformed shells sheets and frames are permanently deformed.alex2015-04-03 19:07 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex,You would have to ask Brent what he meant them to do.  Then separately, one would have to do some calculations to figure out what they really are doing.   I have never personally formed a half-hull with the stringers on it, but, looking at the photos, it seems they are being put into compression, putting the hull skin locally into tension and therefore, they are doing something.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 18:36:09 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   Matt, I wonder if longitudinals have just a shape manteining function and nothing else. I mean, maybe for a 30/40 footer the metal sheets have sufficient strenght itself. If I think about a fibeglass yacht, same size, probabily fully calculated by engineers with the most advanced softwear, there is no way the strenght of a metal yacht. No way, and most of them era licenced for no limit and blu water sailing. So what is the rule? What are we talking about? What do we mean for calculations of the strenght?alex2015-04-03 16:29 GMT+02:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   When the stringers are welded to the hull and the hull is curved, the stringers are no longer flexing about their center plane but about a plane likely very close to the mid-plane of the hull skin.   Therefore their sectional moment of inertia (about their own center-plane of bending) is no longer the important quantity.  The reason for this is, the plane of bending of the stringer-hull system is at the extreme of the stringer section.  In general, physically smaller solid sections will be more flexible when bent about an extreme plane than larger more open or flanged sections with the same Ixx about their mid-planes.  The more expansive and thin the section, the more of an effect this is.   Doing it the way Brent has in the past is the only method that a history of service supports.   How much can the recommended stringer material possibly cost in the grand scheme of things ?  If you are satisfied with the history of service of previous Brent origami boats, and you find that acceptable for your safety, then make your boat the same.  If you want to make a modification and are satisfied with Brent's word that something is suitable, based on his experience, then that is your choice.  Doing calculations that Brent has never done, and doing them improperly, in a system that has never been subject to proper numerical analysis is just a fancy way of fooling yourself.    If you keep doing it, and asking Brent if it is OK, you will eventually find the limits of the insight he has gained from experience and no proper calculations.   There are plenty of old things in service today that were never properly analysed by modern standards.  Historical architects and engineers were not repeatedly asked to extend stretch and modify without end.  They built one, it worked and has worked, some now for hundreds of years.  Modern civil engineers do not get tied up in knots about these old things that work, but, they also do not go around changing them either.   If you are convinced it works, leave it alone.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:25:21 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin | 32442|32367|2015-04-05 04:51:43|Hannu Venermo|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|YES ! Absolutely. This is critical in machine tool design .. and is actually pretty close to what you see as cast iron structural components, and aerospace parts. In boats, we are dealing with ultimate strength - whatever it is. In machine tools, we are dealing with trying to make a structure that bends less than 1 micron, under varying stress of upto several tons. Of course, no-one can do this, but many ways get really close. On 05/04/2015 05:25, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > It makes a thin plate more stiff than hundreds of narrow beams that > add up to the same width. > > Clearly there is a ratio of thickness(or depth) to width where neither > plate theory nor beam theory works really well because the structure > is between the two and becomes a little bit trapezoid in cross-section > when bent. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32443|32367|2015-04-05 14:56:04|Aaron|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|What is the deflection of the 1 x1 1 x 1/4 angle. Then can you compare that with say a 1 x 1 x1/4 C channel even though it won't  represent  the hole sheet it is a starting point for comparison.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" Date:Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 7:25 PMSubject:RE: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   No Willis, plates are different.  Imagine a beam made of plasticine.  When you bend it in the depth direction, the width of the beam increases on the compression surface and decreases on the tension surface.  At the middle the cross-section of the beam takes on a trapezoid shape.   Plates are so wide and thin, this cannot happen.  It makes a thin plate more stiff than hundreds of narrow beams that add up to the same width.   Clearly there is a ratio of thickness(or depth) to width where neither plate theory nor beam theory works really well because the structure is between the two and becomes a little bit trapezoid in cross-section when bent.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 18:33:20 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Longitudinal Stringers   Matt, would not beam deflection online calculator work in this case (for Plate with two opposite edges simply supported)?This calculator for example - it has bunch of load cases:Elastic beam deflection calculator Elastic beam deflection calculator Please enter in the applicable properties and values to be used in the calculation. IMPORTANT: UNITS MUST REMAIN CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT ALL V... View on www.aps.anl.gov Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Willis,I cannot find an on-line calculator for 2 edges simply supported.  http://arxiv.org/pdf/1001.3016.pdfThat is the paper describing the calculations.  Most analytical plate theory is only valid for deflections that are a small fraction of the thickness of the plate.  With two ends supported and the two sides not, it seems one should get useful results for higher deflections, however, you are specifying a deflection of 32 times the thickness.Matt | 32444|32367|2015-04-05 19:43:33|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|When the longitudinals are welded on flat plate, then the plate is curved ,it puts  a tremendous outward pressure on the hull plate ,which gives temendous resistance to any inward pressure. Any inward pressure would  be trying to compress the  longitudinals on end,  longitudinals which cant go anywhere,  while they are  welded to the hull plate . That adds a huge amount of local stiffness to the hull surface.| 32445|32367|2015-04-05 19:52:24|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in up to 12 ft surf, with no serious damage, pounding acros 300 yards of Fijian coral reef  in big surf, and being towed over the same reef  in big surf, then colliding with a freighter in Gibralter all without serious damage, being blown ashore in the Mozambique channel in a hurricane , again without serious damage, a single season passage thru the NW pasage , with zero damage , several circumnavigations, a passage around Cape Horn , then on to  the Aleutians in severe conditions, again with no damage, constitute calculations far more reliable than anything  a computer could come up with . | 32446|32367|2015-04-06 06:07:37|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|... craftsmanship.Cheers G_BAm 06.04.2015 um 01:52 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in up to 12 ft surf, with no serious damage, pounding acros 300 yards of Fijian coral reef  in big surf, and being towed over the same reef  in big surf, then colliding with a freighter in Gibralter all without serious damage, being blown ashore in the Mozambique channel in a hurricane , again without serious damage, a single season passage thru the NW pasage , with zero damage , several circumnavigations, a passage around Cape Horn , then on to  the Aleutians in severe conditions, again with no damage, constitute calculations far more reliable than anything  a computer could come up with .  | 32447|32402|2015-04-06 19:28:32|don bourgeois|Re: Priming underside of stringers-Car Undercoating-rustproofing| I'm not sure but it wouldn't take too much to check it.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 8:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Priming underside of stringers-Car Undercoating-rustproofing     Don How well will the waxoyl hold up to the hot spray foam? Aaron   From: "'don bourgeois' donb1234@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Priming underside of stringers-Car Undercoating-rustproofing     Is there any reason you couldn't do a final coat of wax-based auto undercoating on the stringers and other interior areas after they have been coated with coal tar epoxy or similar. I use it on all sorts of outdoor items made of metal after painting. Waxoyl was the original brand but there are lots of others available now. You local autobody supplier carries them. I usually spray it on using a primer gun but there are lots of dedicated spray guns for undercoating out there (Princess Auto.)   The advantage as I see it is the ability for the spray to be blown into tight areas and it also can creep into spaces and self seal. Price is reasonable too.   Worth a shot??   Don B.     From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Priming underside of stringers     As I understand, stiffness/deflection of the shape is proportional to its calculated Moment of inertia. In this case 1/8x1x1 tube has the same stiffness as 1/4x1x1 angle. 1/4x1.25 FB is stiffer on edge than 1/4x1x1 angle, but less in another direction. It just depends what direction the stiffness is needed. I can see why equal sides angle is used for stringer. It has properties similar to square tube. There is good online calculator which allows to calculate Moment of inertia for common structural shapes: Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, centroid, section modulus       Calculator for Engineers - Area Moment of Inertia, cent... Free online Calculator for civil and mechanical engineers to find area moment of inertia, centroid, section modulus, radius of gyration of plane section of str...   View on civilengineer.webinfo... Preview by Yahoo                 Its results  could be used to calculate deflection of a beam from different materials as well. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote : Angles are far stiffer and stronger than flat bar. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4321/9428 - Release Date: 04/01/15   size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#a0a0a0" align=center> No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4321/9441 - Release Date: 04/02/15 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4321/9441 - Release Date: 04/02/15 | 32448|32367|2015-04-07 17:31:19|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|When some have used flat bar, I have seen the flat bar buckle when the curve is pulled in ,something  which never happens with angle or T section.1 1/2 by 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch angle  was too stiff, and we had to split the ends to stop it from poking a bulge in the hull plate at that point.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am running into similar problem. Cheaper supplier (price more than 2 times less than another supplier) does not have 1x1x1/4 angle. So, I need to find some replacement from available sizes. I hope, some civil engineers in this group will help me.Correct me if I am wrong: Stiffness is proportional to a Moment of Inertia. For equal leg angle, it would be the same number in both directions, so I will give it only ones.Original angle: 1/4x1x1 (1.49 Lb/ft)) = 0.037 1/8x1x1 (0.8 Lb/ft) = 0.0221/8x1-1/8x1-1/8 (0.9 Lb/ft) = 0.0323/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.48 Lb/ft) = 0.0611/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 (1.92 Lb/ft) = 0.077Looks like closest match to 1/4x1x1 angle is 1/8x1-1/8x1-1/8. 1/4x1-1/4x1-1/4 is 2 times stiffer. For me, stiffer angle may be OK - I have bigger boat. I might just take 3/16x1-1/4x1-1/4 witch have almost the same weight.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I got a truck and a trailer, which was kind of difficult, and when I got to the steel yard they only had 6 of the 10  1"x1"x1/4"  longitudinal I need. I made a compromise and got the others as 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/4".  Anyone think this will negatively affect the vessel? I can't imagine it would.  Any thoughts as to where I should place the 1-1/4" angles on the half hull? I'll be getting the rest of my steel from a different supplier, asI am sick of getting to the yard and them not having the most basic materials.-Marlin| 32449|32367|2015-04-08 13:07:51|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|I was trying to find some information. However, it seems that only NASA and Navy were interested in thin plates with large deflection (more than 30% of plate thickness). If I understood correctly, membrane theory apply there instead of plate theory. It looks like FSM (finite strip method) was reasonably close to experimental results with unstiffened and stiffened plates.Unfortunately, there is no online calculators for this and I am not interested to learn solid mechanics at this point ;)). It looks strange to me that I could not find any online calculator for Simply Supported Opposite Ends Plates (small deflected unstiffened and stiffened with stringers) -  what looks like fundamentals of civil engineering (bridges).So, I will relay on experimental data from craftsmanship and try to do some rough estimates based on available online calculators. I just need information in general - what stringer is "too much" compare to recommended one and apply some logic for "close enough" prediction ;)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1590226806 #ygrps-yiv-1590226806ygrps-yiv-377685479 .ygrps-yiv-1590226806ygrps-yiv-377685479hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1590226806 #ygrps-yiv-1590226806ygrps-yiv-377685479 .ygrps-yiv-1590226806ygrps-yiv-377685479hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}No Willis, plates are different.  Imagine a beam made of plasticine.  When you bend it in the depth direction, the width of the beam increases on the compression surface and decreases on the tension surface.  At the middle the cross-section of the beam takes on a trapezoid shape.   Plates are so wide and thin, this cannot happen.  It makes a thin plate more stiff than hundreds of narrow beams that add up to the same width.   Clearly there is a ratio of thickness(or depth) to width where neither plate theory nor beam theory works really well because the structure is between the two and becomes a little bit trapezoid in cross-section when bent.  Matt| 32450|32367|2015-04-08 15:48:19|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|When the longitudinals are welded on the flat plate , then the curve is pulled in, any pressure puts a compression load  on the entire stringer , until it is pushed to its original flat shape. Only then does the inside of the stringer come under tensile load.Likewise buckling of flat bar longitudinals  puts buckled parts of them at an angle of less than 90 degrees to the plate , which become weak points .An angle laid flat puts the stinger material  much closer tot he plate, leaving  very little of it far enough from the plate to provide anywhere near the stiffness of an angle upright.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I was trying to find some information. However, it seems that only NASA and Navy were interested in thin plates with large deflection (more than 30% of plate thickness). If I understood correctly, membrane theory apply there instead of plate theory. It looks like FSM (finite strip method) was reasonably close to experimental results with unstiffened and stiffened plates.Unfortunately, there is no online calculators for this and I am not interested to learn solid mechanics at this point ;)). It looks strange to me that I could not find any online calculator for Simply Supported Opposite Ends Plates (small deflected unstiffened and stiffened with stringers) -  what looks like fundamentals of civil engineering (bridges).So, I will relay on experimental data from craftsmanship and try to do some rough estimates based on available online calculators. I just need information in general - what stringer is "too much" compare to recommended one and apply some logic for "close enough" prediction ;)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1005920825 #ygrps-yiv-1005920825ygrps-yiv-972335920 #ygrps-yiv-1005920825ygrps-yiv-972335920ygrps-yiv-377685479 .ygrps-yiv-1005920825ygrps-yiv-972335920ygrps-yiv-377685479hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1005920825 #ygrps-yiv-1005920825ygrps-yiv-972335920 #ygrps-yiv-1005920825ygrps-yiv-972335920ygrps-yiv-377685479 .ygrps-yiv-1005920825ygrps-yiv-972335920ygrps-yiv-377685479hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}No Willis, plates are different.  Imagine a beam made of plasticine.  When you bend it in the depth direction, the width of the beam increases on the compression surface and decreases on the tension surface.  At the middle the cross-section of the beam takes on a trapezoid shape.   Plates are so wide and thin, this cannot happen.  It makes a thin plate more stiff than hundreds of narrow beams that add up to the same width.   Clearly there is a ratio of thickness(or depth) to width where neither plate theory nor beam theory works really well because the structure is between the two and becomes a little bit trapezoid in cross-section when bent.  Matt| 32451|32367|2015-04-08 16:12:48|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Thanks Brent!I assume you are taking about 3/8x1 FB and it was not enough, L1/4x1-1/2x1-1/2 was too much. Or was it 1/4x1 FB?Based on this (I will just give Moment of inertia for a stringer itself)1/4x1 FB - Ixx=0.0208, Iyy=0.00133/8x1 FB - Ixx=0.0312, Iyy=0.00441/4x1-1/2 FB - Ixx=0.0703 , Iyy=0.0019L1/4x1x1 (specified stringer) - Ixx=0.0368, Iyy=0.0368L1/4x1-1/2x1-1/2 (too stiff) - Ixx=0.1385, Iyy=0.1385How did you split the angle? Did you start at the middle (edge where legs meet) and gradually cut another/upper side till stringer become full angle shape some distance from stringer's end?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When some have used flat bar, I have seen the flat bar buckle when the curve is pulled in ,something  which never happens with angle or T section.1 1/2 by 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch angle  was too stiff, and we had to split the ends to stop it from poking a bulge in the hull plate at that point.| 32452|32367|2015-04-10 13:17:32|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Aaron, yours and Brent's answers made me to take another look at plate stiffness. Only this time for flat plate reinforcement - it is easier to find information.It is possible to split shape into "blocks", or use available online calculators for rough estimates. More than enough at this point.Some useful basics:  http://www.totalconstructionhelp.com/momenti.html  Online calculator: http://civilengineer.webinfolist.com/str/micalc.htm  In simple words, it is need to offset/move center of mass (center of gravity) of the plate using stringer, to increase moment of inertia (and resulting stiffness). This explains why angle laying flat on the plate and angle on the rib gives different resulting structure's stiffness.I was using rectangular shape for plate calculation and I-section for plate-stringer calculation (plate and T-stringer). 0_25T1x0.75 = L1x1x0.25. Resulting Ixx of I-section was used to find equivalent of rectangular plate thickness.Resulting ESTIMATES compare to 36"x3/16 plate (0.1875").36"x0.1875" Plate with one stringer L1x1x0.25 at the center is similar to 36"x0.459 Plate. Almost 2.5 times stronger. It is possible to make it more stiff just welding flatbar (laying flat) on the top of angle stringer.So, this is just an estimate TO GET the IDEA how stringer works and how it affects plate's stiffness.  My estimate might be incorrect ;)))---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What is the deflection of the 1 x1 1 x 1/4 angle. Then can you compare that with say a 1 x 1 x1/4 C channel even though it won't  represent  the hole sheet it is a starting point for comparison.Aaron | 32453|32367|2015-04-10 15:38:28|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|I simply cut a wedge out of the upright leg, until it faired out.| 32454|32367|2015-04-10 15:57:09|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|On bigger boats, where an adequate size angles wont bend easily enough, one can stack one angle on top of another , after the hull has been pulled together, for super stiffness.| 32455|32367|2015-04-14 02:40:11|Alex Bar|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Maybe on bigger boats one can duoble (or more) the number of smaller stringers obtaining super stiffness. But would they bend all togheter once they are pulled?Alex2015-04-10 21:57 GMT+02:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   On bigger boats, where an adequate size angles wont bend easily enough, one can stack one angle on top of another , after the hull has been pulled together, for super stiffness. | 32456|32367|2015-04-15 16:09:23|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Yes side by side they would all bend together. If you put one on top of another, it gives a huge increase in stiffness,  compared to side by side.| 32457|32367|2015-04-17 09:18:53|Alex Bar|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|What do you mean side by side? It means that no matter how many stringers you put they all bends togheter with the plate?Alex2015-04-15 22:09 GMT+02:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Yes side by side they would all bend together. If you put one on top of another, it gives a huge increase in stiffness,  compared to side by side. | 32458|32367|2015-04-17 16:38:50|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Yes but putting them one on top of another means far more space between the plate and the top of the last stringer, which adds far more stiffness than two stringers side by side.| 32459|32367|2015-04-18 00:46:03|wild_explorer|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Look at several stringers as one. Several stringers have the same height, but combined width.Formula for moment of  inertia for rectangular stringer (w*h^3)/12.w - widthh - heightSo, increasing width give you proportional increase of moment of inertia for stringer, height - cube.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What do you mean side by side?| 32460|32367|2015-04-18 03:09:56|Alex Bar|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Yes, and if instead of put one stringer on top of the other i put transverse stringers welded on longitudinals? Like a frame.alex Look at several stringers as one. Several stringers have the same height, but combined width.Formula for moment of  inertia for rectangular stringer (w*h^3)/12.w - widthh - heightSo, increasing width give you proportional increase of moment of inertia for stringer, height - cube.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What do you mean side by side? | 32461|32367|2015-04-20 14:54:15|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|A frame would add nowhere near the stiffness of a longitudinal, especially one on top of another.  To push the hull in would require compressing the longitudinal on end, with the longitudinal welded to the hull plate and contained within it , so It can't go anywhere. Such pressure would put a simple bending load on a transverse frame , which is only lightly tacked to the longitudinal, which does little to hold it in place, or stop it from flopping over.| 32462|32462|2015-04-20 22:43:19|smallboatvoyaguer|31' Rudder Plate Thickness|I just read in an older post that the rudder on the 31 footer is made of 11 gauge.Is this correct?-Marlin| 32463|32367|2015-04-21 11:05:24|theboilerflue|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|why are people so concerenrd about these longitudinals, You put two 20' above the chine, 4 10' below that come together to make 20's. Then you can put as many as you want anywhere darn well please, any difference it would make is not measurable by using the boat, you won't notice. It doesn't matter, just weld your stringers down and move on to some other project. No need to over think it every little step. They make convient places to attach your firring strips to as well.| 32464|32464|2015-04-21 15:19:42|John Waalkes|Re: 4 yrs new and rust| Dare I say Thank You who ever killed the spam.   Thanks again  JohnSent from Windows Mail | 32465|32462|2015-04-21 15:20:23|brentswain38|Re: 31' Rudder Plate Thickness|11 gauge, 10 gauge. Doesn'r matter.| 32466|32367|2015-04-21 15:24:16|brentswain38|Re: Longitudinal Stringers|Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. Nitpicking can add years to a project, for no real benefit.What I was suggesting was a way to get adequately stiff stringers into a much larger hull,  without distorting the plate. Not applicable, nor relevant  for boats 40 ft or less.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :why are people so concerenrd about these longitudinals, You put two 20' above the chine, 4 10' below that come together to make 20's. Then you can put as many as you want anywhere darn well please, any difference it would make is not measurable by using the boat, you won't notice. It doesn't matter, just weld your stringers down and move on to some other project. No need to over think it every little step. They make convient places to attach your firring strips to as well.| 32467|32467|2015-04-22 12:05:20|jaybeecherbay|Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|Hello All,I am in the stage of selecting my tranny, prop shaft, and prop ect...The hull I bought unfinished is a 36' BS,  came with a kubota V2203http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/21_v2203m_28.pdfstern tube -  1.625" IDProp cut out-  20.5"I am looking to fit it with a Twin Disc tranny  MG 360 with a 2:1 reductionhttp://www.twindisc.com/data/en/pages/002-marine/pages/001-marine-products/pages/001-marine-transmissions/pages/002-mg-360/media/downloads/MG-360_Bulletin.pdfMy questions:what diameter prop shaft should I use? 1'1/4"?what Prop size/pitch?is the reduction ratio appropriate?If any of you know this information, or know where to go, please respond.  I live in east sooke.thanks again.Jay.| 32468|32467|2015-04-22 16:12:11|opuspaul|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|One inch shaft is probably borderline with that size of engine if it is a medium to long shaft.  You could go with 1 1/8 inch like I did but it is hard to find used props and hardware since 1 1/8 inch is not very common.  I ended up switching to a 1 1/4 inch a few years ago when my old shaft got pitted and needed replacement.   It is complete overkill  for my 35 hp engine but I don't mind.The reduction ratio is good  and normal for a yacht.  Twindisc are good gearboxes.  Similar but probably better than a  Hurth/ZF.As for the prop, it is hard to say....every engine is different.   Try to find a used one rather than a new one in case it ends up being wrong and experiment.  1 1/4 inch props are quite common.   Brent probably knows better than me but off the top of my head I would start with 16 inch diameter with about a 10 or 12 inch pitch 3 blade.....You should be able to get full revs out of your engine.  If you can't or you get a lot of black smoke, then you are overloading the engine.   A lot people make this mistake, thinking that reaching hull speed at low revs is good.    Going higher revs won't use any more fuel and your engine will thank you since it is more efficient and delivers more torque.   I would be happy with a max 2800 rpm engine cruising at hull speed in flat water at about 2000 rpm.   There is still enough  extra revs and power when you need it.What you have sounds like an ideal setup.....Kubota's are good engines.   The engine is bigger than it needs to be but if you are spinning a high output alternator  or running a watermaker it will use up some horsepower.  I would rather have an engine that is too big than too small.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hello All,I am in the stage of selecting my tranny, prop shaft, and prop ect...The hull I bought unfinished is a 36' BS,  came with a kubota V2203http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/21_v2203m_28.pdfstern tube -  1.625" IDProp cut out-  20.5"I am looking to fit it with a Twin Disc tranny  MG 360 with a 2:1 reductionhttp://www.twindisc.com/data/en/pages/002-marine/pages/001-marine-products/pages/001-marine-transmissions/pages/002-mg-360/media/downloads/MG-360_Bulletin.pdfMy questions:what diameter prop shaft should I use? 1'1/4"?what Prop size/pitch?is the reduction ratio appropriate?If any of you know this information, or know where to go, please respond.  I live in east sooke.thanks again.Jay.| 32469|32467|2015-04-22 16:36:23|brentswain38|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|I'd use a 1 1/4 shaft.  I use an oilite bushing for a stern bearing , which works well. I have pumped my stern tube full of grease and I leave the grease gun permanently hooked up. My book gives instructions for calculating prop pitch.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hello All,I am in the stage of selecting my tranny, prop shaft, and prop ect...The hull I bought unfinished is a 36' BS,  came with a kubota V2203http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/21_v2203m_28.pdfstern tube -  1.625" IDProp cut out-  20.5"I am looking to fit it with a Twin Disc tranny  MG 360 with a 2:1 reductionhttp://www.twindisc.com/data/en/pages/002-marine/pages/001-marine-products/pages/001-marine-transmissions/pages/002-mg-360/media/downloads/MG-360_Bulletin.pdfMy questions:what diameter prop shaft should I use? 1'1/4"?what Prop size/pitch?is the reduction ratio appropriate?If any of you know this information, or know where to go, please respond.  I live in east sooke.thanks again.Jay.| 32470|32467|2015-04-22 16:43:27|brentswain38|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|Let me know if you find  a source of used props down there. Another 36 needs a 17 inch one ,for a  1 1/4" shaft. I think you would be in the 16 inch  diameter area.  They are easily cut down and repitched, up to 4 inches, altho the closer to what you need, the better.Balance it on your finger and give it a tap. If you hear a dull thunk, it has electrolysis. If it gives a clear ring, it is good.| 32471|32467|2015-04-23 09:06:34|theboilerflue|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|if you've got the option go for a 3:1. I'd rather have a slower turning shaft, go for 1 1/4" shaft and maybe something along a 14D14P prop. I'd aim to have the boat going at 5-6 knots in the 1800-2000rpm range as that is what I mostly run at and care more about my fuel budget than the rare time I've either got to go slow or motor into a headwind.| 32472|32467|2015-04-23 09:10:14|theboilerflue|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|In fact I've got the prop that you probably need for that engine though it's a left hander 14x14 I think I've always meant to go up in size a bit after I put the 50hp in but a prop hasn't fallen into my hands. If you find one 16x11 16x12 range let me know| 32473|32467|2015-04-23 15:31:13|opuspaul|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|Everything is a compromise.   A slower turning prop from using a 3 to 1 gearbox means that the prop needs to be larger.   This causes more drag under sail.  Using a 3 to 1 gearbox isn't very common but if I spent most of my time motoring and trying to punch through the current in passes I would consider it and swing a bigger prop.   The prop aperture may limit you.I may have made a mistake but I actually went the opposite way and went for a 1.5 to 1 gearbox with a 14 x10  two bladed prop on my Isuzu 35 hp.   It is well matched.   I suffer a bit when trying to reverse and stop the boat when docking or when punching into a head sea but there is very little drag under sail.   I think a 14 inch prop sounds like it would be too small for a 48 hp with a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 gearbox.   If you don't have enough load on your engine, you can end up polishing/glazing the cylinders and damaging it.   You can normally tell this with the boats that spend a lot of time at light load, running engines just to charge batteries.   They usually smoke a lot and have no power when they need it.  What happens to engines running without sufficient loads. What happens to engines running without sufficient lo... Diesel Generators can't be run without a load for a long period of time without causing some serious damage. View on www.auroragenerators... Preview by Yahoo  | 32474|32467|2015-04-23 16:57:51|brentswain38|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|3 to 1 makes for a bigger prop, which means more drag under sail.| 32475|32467|2015-04-24 09:58:37|theboilerflue|Re: Prop shaft, Prop, and Reduction Ratio|Well, yes I'm aware that the prop is too small for the 48hp but it's waht I had, it was too big for the 20hp that I had before, so can't win. We put an 18"x12?or14 on and at full revs we churned up three foot rollers off the stern. Watch out paddle boarders. Trouble going slow too.| 32476|32476|2015-04-25 02:59:26|northcanoe|James Bay 28 footer|My daughter found this 28 footer in James Bay, on Toronto Street, owned by an old fellow who built it back in 1993, so we went to have a closer look. He wants to sell it for a good price, he said. It's a stretched 26 footer.  Not a beauty queen by any stretch, there's tons of work in it, but might be a foundation for a cheap project, but needs more investigation.I'll add a photo to the photo section for it, someone here may recognize it?Alex| 32477|22|2015-04-25 03:02:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats|Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /IMG_0963.JPG Uploaded by : northcanoe Description : James Bay boat, 28 footer You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/IMG_0963.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, northcanoe | 32478|32476|2015-04-25 19:46:11|brentswain38|Re: James Bay 28 footer|Looks like Paul's old boat.I was built behind the Legislature in Victoria. Quite a bit of distortion, and the beam was forced out. Check it thoroughly for corrosion under the foam.| 32479|32476|2015-04-25 21:21:13|northcanoe|Re: James Bay 28 footer|It's an odd duck, for sure. The old guy just wants to unload it, he's swallowed the anchor. Severe corrosion on stanchions, the thing would basically need some serious rebuilding to be right again. Isuzu engine is salvageable, as well as the lead in the keels. The rest... best to start from scratch.If it could be had cheap, it might be worth using fittings, mast, engine, propshaft and lead, then selling the hull for scrap which could then be rolled over into buying new steel. The hull below waterline was attacked by electrolysis.Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats forum has been created to explore all aspects of a unique and revolutionary method of building frameless steel sailboats. The technique is know... View on groups.yahoo.com Preview by Yahoo  | 32480|32480|2015-05-04 19:32:46|smallboatvoyaguer|Priming under deck beams| Yo. I am about to start building my decks and foredeck. I thought perhaps I should prime the deck beams and the space they will end up before I tack them in place, then I noticed that Kim didn't do that on his boat.  Thoughts? To prime, or not to prime, under the deck beams before tacking them in place.-Marlin| 32481|32480|2015-05-04 20:17:49|James Pronk|Re: Priming under deck beams|I love weld through primer and I hate mill scale. My decks are galvanized but I blasted my deck beams and primed them before welding them in. James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Priming under deck beams Sent: Mon, May 4, 2015 11:32:45 PM    Yo. I am about to start building my decks and foredeck. I thought perhaps I should prime the deck beams and the space they will end up before I tack them in place, then I noticed that Kim didn't do that on his boat.  Thoughts? To prime, or not to prime, under the deck beams before tacking them in place.-Marlin | 32482|32480|2015-05-05 21:13:06|brentswain38|Re: Priming under deck beams|I have never heard of problems under the beams .| 32483|32483|2015-05-08 09:44:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Coating before foam| So, What have people been doing to coat the inside of the hull, before foaming? Obviously, zinc priming would be ideal. Would a couple coats of coal tar do the trick? I'm just looking for ways to save a buck, without cutting corners, which is nearly impossible.-Marlin| 32484|32484|2015-05-08 10:16:20|smallboatvoyaguer|Amount of paint/ primer| Has anyone here primed or painted an entire 31, inside and out? I am trying to figure out how much Zinga to purchase and I can't make any sense out of the coverage stats in the their technical data sheet.   For those have used Zinga, is a one part system?| 32485|32485|2015-05-08 12:02:43|smallboatvoyaguer|Square footage of shell| Anyone have a good estimate of the square footage of a 31? Trying to figure out coating amounts and pricing. I've got a buddy in the paint business, who can get Sherwin Williams coatings at cost, which ends up being around $370 for three gallons.| 32486|32483|2015-05-08 12:04:02|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Coating before foam|I think I found the answer to this. No zinc, just three coats of coal tar, then foam.| 32487|32487|2015-05-08 12:48:10|smallboatvoyaguer|40 foot mast on 31 footer| I've got so many questions today! I'm only asking now because it may take me awhile to find a different mast, if need be. The mast I've picked up (for free) is off of a 35 footer. It's forty feet long, and has mast steps. It seems to be pretty stout. The wall thickness is probably around 10 gauge? Two guy's can carry it. The plans for the 31 show what I think was a 34 foot mast? I seem to recall someone mentioning that a little more mast height might serve the design well.  Also, the boom is two feet shy of what the plans call for. Big deal? I guess I'll just try it and find out. I can always hack of a couple feet later.| 32488|32488|2015-05-08 13:50:38|gerard.laverty|31' Open cockpit|Could anyone put me in touch with George Hone, or give me information on a boat he owned/built in the early '90's.Thanks,Gerard.| 32489|32487|2015-05-08 14:32:32|James Pronk|Re: 40 foot mast on 31 footer|You don't have to run the sail to the top. A forty foot aluminum mast would still be lighter then a thirty six foot steel or wood mast would it not?James From: musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] 40 foot mast on 31 footer Sent: Fri, May 8, 2015 4:48:10 PM    I've got so many questions today! I'm only asking now because it may take me awhile to find a different mast, if need be. The mast I've picked up (for free) is off of a 35 footer. It's forty feet long, and has mast steps. It seems to be pretty stout. The wall thickness is probably around 10 gauge? Two guy's can carry it. The plans for the 31 show what I think was a 34 foot mast? I seem to recall someone mentioning that a little more mast height might serve the design well.  Also, the boom is two feet shy of what the plans call for. Big deal? I guess I'll just try it and find out. I can always hack of a couple feet later. | 32490|32485|2015-05-08 15:08:19|Aaron|Re: Square footage of shell|I estimated my square footage like this: sheets for my 36 where 8 x 36 = 288 sf x 4  (inside and outside)= 1152 add the top estimated on more 8 x 36 to be safe I have an estimate of 1440 sf for my BS36.Hope that helpsAaron  From: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 8:02 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Square footage of shell    Anyone have a good estimate of the square footage of a 31? Trying to figure out coating amounts and pricing. I've got a buddy in the paint business, who can get Sherwin Williams coatings at cost, which ends up being around $370 for three gallons. #ygrps-yiv-1305901071 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816 -- #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1305901071 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1305901071 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1305901071 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1305901071 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816 #ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1305901071yiv2411249816ad { 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Don't cut any off. Don't worry about the boom length---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I've got so many questions today! I'm only asking now because it may take me awhile to find a different mast, if need be. The mast I've picked up (for free) is off of a 35 footer. It's forty feet long, and has mast steps. It seems to be pretty stout. The wall thickness is probably around 10 gauge? Two guy's can carry it. The plans for the 31 show what I think was a 34 foot mast? I seem to recall someone mentioning that a little more mast height might serve the design well.  Also, the boom is two feet shy of what the plans call for. Big deal? I guess I'll just try it and find out. I can always hack of a couple feet later.| 32492|32488|2015-05-08 17:27:48|brentswain38|Re: 31' Open cockpit|I'll keep an eye out for him , but i usually don't see him til summer. He hangs around Arizona or Colorado lakes in winter.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Could anyone put me in touch with George Hone, or give me information on a boat he owned/built in the early '90's.Thanks,Gerard.| 32493|32483|2015-05-08 17:30:47|brentswain38|Re: Coating before foam|Zinc helps. The most important paint you will ever put in a steel boat is inside. If the outside screws up, you can always deal with it, not an easy option inside.  The thicker the better.| 32494|32485|2015-05-08 17:33:46|brentswain38|Re: Square footage of shell|Roughly 1084 sq ft---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Anyone have a good estimate of the square footage of a 31? Trying to figure out coating amounts and pricing. I've got a buddy in the paint business, who can get Sherwin Williams coatings at cost, which ends up being around $370 for three gallons.| 32495|32485|2015-05-08 17:35:18|brentswain38|Re: Square footage of shell|1084 sq ft per side, times 2 .| 32496|32483|2015-05-09 16:59:01|brentswain38|Re: Coating before foam|If you are using the boat entirely where you live, corrosion should not be much of a problem. Corrosion doubles for every ten degrees farenheit rise in temperature.  With minus temperatures much of the year where you live, it should  be minimal . Being in fresh water reduces it even further.| 32497|32483|2015-05-10 14:44:49|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Coating before foam|Isn't it a rapid rise in air temperature that produces the most condensation.I remember in my machine shop that you could see the water condensing out on the cold machines when a warm front passed through.Is there no way of taking advantage of this and collecting the watercheersAndy Airey| 32498|32498|2015-05-10 15:56:38|aguysailing|Canadian charts|I use Open CPN charting software and have CMap C93 downloaded charts of the world (free download) apparenty no longer available.I am considering buying PAC 01 chart set from Canadian Hydrographic Services for the west coast of Vancouver Island as I hear they are very detailed.  Just wondering if anyone is running Canadian Charts on Open CPN (BSB v4 raster charts) which is the format available.  Or even if they are compatible with CPN.  I have searched google and can not seem to get an answer to this.... thanks| 32499|32498|2015-05-10 16:55:32|opuspaul|Re: Canadian charts|CMap comes from the same surveys and data as the paper charts so it should be accurate for anywhere in the world.   I am sure it would be OK on the west coast of Vancouver Island.  It was never free but stolen and shared.  CMap has been prosecuting people selling or sharing it.   The version of CMap most people are using is an early one and may be missing some high resolution charts in some of the more remote areas of the world or not have the latest navaids or marinas on it.   It may not be calibrated in some remote areas for WGS84 so you need to be careful.   For most of the world, if you are lucky, have the CMap charts and understand the limitations it is all you really need.   The latest version I have seen on cruising boats being shared (rightly or wrongly) is from 2006.   Since almost all charts made in 2006 were calibrated to satellite, it is superior to the earlier versions.   CMap came up with a whole new chart format to help stop the pirating a few years ago.  It took awhile for OpenCPN to adapt and read the new charts but the guys at OpenCPN are really active and constantly improving the program.OpenCPN is a  great program and will almost read any kind of chart.  I haven't tried it but I am pretty sure it would read the latest Canadian Hydrographic charts  since it says that it will read BSB v4.http://opencpn.org/ocpn/chart_formats If nobody can confirm they have tried it here, I would ask one of the OpenCPN forums or ask the hydrographic office for a compatibility list.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I use Open CPN charting software and have CMap C93 downloaded charts of the world (free download) apparenty no longer available.I am considering buying PAC 01 chart set from Canadian Hydrographic Services for the west coast of Vancouver Island as I hear they are very detailed.  Just wondering if anyone is running Canadian Charts on Open CPN (BSB v4 raster charts) which is the format available.  Or even if they are compatible with CPN.  I have searched google and can not seem to get an answer to this.... thanks | 32500|32498|2015-05-10 17:41:58|aguysailing|Re: Canadian charts|Hi Paul.... thanks for the info.  Here is what Open CPN says about charts.  Apparently, a "non free" plug is required for v4.Raster Charts BSB Versions 1, 2 and 3, with chart files ending with ".kap". Non standard coded "skewed" charts, are handled through internal calculations. This takes care of a few charts from "Solteknik HB", and possibly others. BSB Version 4 , with chart files ending with ".cap", works with a non free plugin, for Windows only. See the PlugIns download page.Just wondering if CHS charts are better than Cmap.  Funny, that a plug in is required given the quality of the CPN program though..... Gary| 32501|32498|2015-05-10 20:45:35|opuspaul|Re: Canadian charts|I didn't notice the non-free bit :).   Some of the free NOAA charts from the US actually go up in to Canada a bit.http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/NOAAChartViewer.htmlI guess it really depends on your budget.  I would be happy with CMap.  There is nothing stopping you from scrolling around with the program and see what the chart detail looks like on the west coast if you are worried about it.   No matter what you use, I always print charts off my computer so that I have a paper back up in case I lose everything.  I will normally use the paper/strip charts underway so I don't need a computer on all the time.  You can also use other (free) sources for charts.  I like to use Ozi Explorer as well as OpenCPN.  It is a great program.   I find it the best program for routes, tracks and waypoint editing.   The downside of the program is that it won't read vector charts like Cmap.   There is far too much to go into here but it can read the charts off of satellites (MrSid) and google earth.  You download them to your computer hard drive for use later when you are off line.  It won't really apply to the west coast of Canada where it is deep water but I found that satellite photos were the best thing to use in large coral reef areas like the north side of Vanua Levu in Fiji and in Vavau, Tonga.  You can see chart detail that simply does not exist with normal chart surveys.  The satellite photos are also handy to show development/infrastructure on shore .   This can be good when entering major ports.   You can spend weeks learning all this stuff and turn it into a hobby if you like.   I know of one guy who was actually creating his own very accurate charts for anchorages in the Lau group using Oziexplorer, a hand held gps and track plots while exploring in his dinghy.   I would have gone anywhere with this guy and known he wouldn't get into trouble.  On the other extreme I have been on boats where the skipper is in full panick mode trying to figure things out at the last minute while entering an anchorage in poor visibility.  He didn't even known how to enter a waypoint or follow a track plot.  For me, that is far too late.   He probably would have blamed his gps if he went aground.  I have always enjoyed playing with the computer and planning trips while sitting quietly in an anchorage.   If you take your time and double check everything,  it is easy to upload and download waypoints, routes and tracks without any errors.   Once I am underway, the work has been done and I can enjoy the trip without any stress.   Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Paul.... thanks for the info.  Here is what Open CPN says about charts.  Apparently, a "non free" plug is required for v4.Raster ChartsBSB Versions 1, 2 and 3, with chart files ending with ".kap". Non standard coded "skewed" charts, are handled through internal calculations. This takes care of a few charts from "Solteknik HB", and possibly others. BSB Version 4 , with chart files ending with ".cap", works with a non free plugin, for Windows only. See the PlugIns download page.Just wondering if CHS charts are better than Cmap.  Funny, that a plug in is required given the quality of the CPN program though..... Gary| 32502|32502|2015-05-11 15:50:47|smallboatvoyaguer|Primer Specs| Yo, hoping someone could take a look and see if there is anything suspect about this primer. I can get a deal on it, and on any Sherwin Williams product, and so am partial to using them. This is the best I could find to suite my needs. I won't be welding through the primer, so that is not a requirement for me. Here is a link to the spec sheet:http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=N10A359 Thanks, Marlin| 32503|32483|2015-05-11 16:45:10|brentswain38|Re: Coating before foam|The book "sailing the farm" has a design for a water distiller with uses condensation to produce water. I was thinking that a poly tarp over the dinghy, with salt water in the bottom,  with a rock in the middle , with a bowl at the low point , may give you condensation water. I hear that works in the desert, over a hole in the sand..---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Isn't it a rapid rise in air temperature that produces the most condensation.I remember in my machine shop that you could see the water condensing out on the cold machines when a warm front passed through.Is there no way of taking advantage of this and collecting the watercheersAndy Airey| 32504|32498|2015-05-11 16:48:50|brentswain38|Re: Canadian charts|There is now an Evergreen chart atlas available for the West Coast of Vancouver Island, for around $65.Lots of detail.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I use Open CPN charting software and have CMap C93 downloaded charts of the world (free download) apparenty no longer available.I am considering buying PAC 01 chart set from Canadian Hydrographic Services for the west coast of Vancouver Island as I hear they are very detailed.  Just wondering if anyone is running Canadian Charts on Open CPN (BSB v4 raster charts) which is the format available.  Or even if they are compatible with CPN.  I have searched google and can not seem to get an answer to this.... thanks| 32505|32502|2015-05-11 16:53:18|brentswain38|Re: Primer Specs|Looks good to me. Should have no problem with overcoats,  or welding thru. Just try not to breathe the fumes. Too much zinc gives temporary flu like symptoms for a few days.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Yo, hoping someone could take a look and see if there is anything suspect about this primer. I can get a deal on it, and on any Sherwin Williams product, and so am partial to using them. This is the best I could find to suite my needs. I won't be welding through the primer, so that is not a requirement for me. Here is a link to the spec sheet:http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=N10A359 Thanks, Marlin| 32506|32502|2015-05-11 16:54:19|opuspaul|Re: Primer Specs|I have used similar primers before and they have been very, very good.  If you coat with a high build two pack epoxy over that primer chances are you will have great protection.But do you want to take the risk?   Some paints look great on paper but in practice are hard to apply or unforgiving.   Some primers harden like a sheet of glass and you get adhesion issues between later coats of paints or are so soft that they are easily damages.  Some paints wick into pores and crevices and seal better than others.   I am not trying to scare you but the inside paint is probably one of the most critical things you can do while finishing a steel boat.   This is not where you want to make decisions based on trying to save money.   I would try to confirm if anyone else has used the paint for your purpose.   Have you talked to a paint rep from the manufacturer?  Not some guy in a store but the salesman who deals with commercial stuff like offshore rigs and ships.  You shouldn't have to figure it out on your own.    It has all been done before and I found that whatever the commercial guys say is  proven and usually pretty good.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Yo, hoping someone could take a look and see if there is anything suspect about this primer. I can get a deal on it, and on any Sherwin Williams product, and so am partial to using them. This is the best I could find to suite my needs. I won't be welding through the primer, so that is not a requirement for me. Here is a link to the spec sheet:http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=N10A359 Thanks, Marlin | 32508|32502|2015-05-13 13:13:50|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Primer Specs|So which primer would you suggest I use? Zinga and Interlux are brought up a lot. | 32509|32502|2015-05-14 02:36:29|Aaron|Re: Primer Specs|I started with devoted 302 zink based primer and wheel abraded sheets. But that was 8 years ago and am looking at Zinga very seriously. The zink content is excellent and the shelf life = no waste just save for touch up.I do still need to follow up with top coat color choices and what options will workAaron Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" Date:Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:13 AMSubject:[origamiboats] Re: Primer Specs   So which primer would you suggest I use? Zinga and Interlux are brought up a lot.  | 32510|32483|2015-05-15 01:51:06|jaybeecherbay|Re: Coating before foam|Why no zinc primer first?| 32511|32483|2015-05-15 12:13:36|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Coating before foam|I'll be using Zinga as a primer coat on the inside, with coal tar over that, then foam. Probably a couple coats of coal tar. I like what i read about Zinga. One part, great shelf life, great pot life, and great for touching up previously galvanized sheet. I don't trust the Sherwin paint, seems cheap and gimmicky.| 32512|32512|2015-05-15 15:12:36|jaybeecherbay|Marinising an industrial diesel|I have kubota V2203 crate engine that came with a bare hull I just bought. I am looking into fitting it with a twin disc mg360 gear. 2:1 Problem is..,, the bell housing does not Match a SAE 4/5/6. This engine is likely a replacement for a forklift. Does anyone have experience marinising an industrial Diesel engine? Where can I source a bell housing or adapter plate so that I can fit a marine gear? Any links or info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Jay.| 32513|32512|2015-05-15 15:49:48|opuspaul|Re: Marinising an industrial diesel|Try these guys.  They sell a wide variety of equipment and gearboxes.   I have bought stuff from them in the past and they were quite helpful.   Paulhttp://www.merequipment.com/  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have kubota V2203 crate engine that came with a bare hull I just bought. I am looking into fitting it with a twin disc mg360 gear. 2:1 Problem is..,, the bell housing does not Match a SAE 4/5/6. This engine is likely a replacement for a forklift. Does anyone have experience marinising an industrial Diesel engine? Where can I source a bell housing or adapter plate so that I can fit a marine gear? Any links or info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Jay.| 32514|32512|2015-05-15 15:56:20|bargemaster24|Re: Marinising an industrial diesel|Hi  Jay           I live on a narrow boat in the UK .I  know that Kubota are fitted to some of the boats being built. Betamarine might be able to help with information.Moored  near  me is a boat fitted with a forklift motor but runs a hydraulic drive. mikeafloat -----Original Message----- From: jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, 15 May 2015 20:12 Subject: [origamiboats] Marinising an industrial diesel I have kubota V2203 crate engine that came with a bare hull I just bought. I am looking into fitting it with a twin disc mg360 gear. 2:1 Problem is..,, the bell housing does not Match a SAE 4/5/6. This engine is likely a replacement for a forklift. Does anyone have experience marinising an industrial Diesel engine? Where can I source a bell housing or adapter plate so that I can fit a marine gear? Any links or info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Jay. ------------------------------------ Posted by: jaybeecherbay@... ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to: https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ | 32515|32483|2015-05-15 16:11:41|Aaron|Re: Coating before foam|Good choice Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" Date:Fri, May 15, 2015 at 8:13 AMSubject:[origamiboats] Re: Coating before foam   I'll be using Zinga as a primer coat on the inside, with coal tar over that, then foam. Probably a couple coats of coal tar. I like what i read about Zinga. One part, great shelf life, great pot life, and great for touching up previously galvanized sheet. I don't trust the Sherwin paint, seems cheap and gimmicky. | 32516|32483|2015-05-15 19:37:53|brentswain38|Re: Coating before foam|I'd go for at least three coats of epoxy tar over the primer. more in the bilges---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'll be using Zinga as a primer coat on the inside, with coal tar over that, then foam. Probably a couple coats of coal tar. I like what i read about Zinga. One part, great shelf life, great pot life, and great for touching up previously galvanized sheet. I don't trust the Sherwin paint, seems cheap and gimmicky.| 32517|32512|2015-05-15 19:40:02|brentswain38|Re: Marinising an industrial diesel|I found the water cooled exhaust manifold on my Isuzu, easy to fabricate from SS sch 40  pipe.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi  Jay          I live on a narrow boat in the UK .I  know that Kubota are fitted to some of the boats being built. Betamarine might be able to help with information.Moored  near  me is a boat fitted with a forklift motor but runs a hydraulic drive.mikeafloat -----Original Message----- From: jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Fri, 15 May 2015 20:12 Subject: [origamiboats] Marinising an industrial diesel I have kubota V2203 crate engine that came with a bare hull I just bought. I am looking into fitting it with a twin disc mg360 gear. 2:1 Problem is..,, the bell housing does not Match a SAE 4/5/6. This engine is likely a replacement for a forklift. Does anyone have experience marinising an industrial Diesel engine? Where can I source a bell housing or adapter plate so that I can fit a marine gear? Any links or info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Jay. ------------------------------------ Posted by: jaybeecherbay@... ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to: https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ | 32518|32518|2015-05-15 19:58:42|brentswain38|Hoarding knowledge|I have heard that  many yacht  designers are becoming desperately short of work lately, thanks to the internet and the ability to get answers from people with vastly more hands on experience in metal boat cruising, boat building, living aboard and boat maintenance, than some one who has spent all his time at a drawing board, charging $150 an hour for advice on something  he has never personally done. I have always considered what I have learned to be for the benefit of all, and have no better days than when I can help someone find a simple affordable, and effective solution to seemingly complex and expensive problems. When you retire and havwe no personal use for somethign what do you do with it? Pass it on. No point in sitting idly by and watching anyone repeat the learning curve and mistakes I have had to deal with. When a friend was having bearing problems with his spade rudder on his stock plastic boat, I asked Bob " Little Boys" Perry how he dealt with it, He refused to answer. Then I noticed that the only posts he ever made were self promotion, or atacking those who gave advice for free, which he was hoping to be paid $150 an hour for. Posts he made giving actual useful advice, were extremely rare.With metal boats, the more useful information we give, the better off all metal boat builders, and cruisers  will be. Giving info freely, from those with metal boat experience is far better than what most discussion group moderators encourage , which is 95% of metal boat advice coming  from those with zero hands on  metal boat experience, ( like"Little Boys" Perry )while encouraging attacks from them, on the only ones with actual hands on Metal boat experience.| 32519|32519|2015-05-19 00:14:19|wild_explorer|6011 with DC|If you welding with DC and need less penetration than with AC (when welding gauge material for example), use polarity "electrod negative".| 32520|32520|2015-05-19 00:32:50|wild_explorer|Chine seam reinforcement|Brent, I need to reinforce chine seam (for hull with single keel). I was thinking to run 4" 3/16 strip along chine seam (on top and bottom) and another 2" 1/4 strip over it. It will give me gradual change in thickness and total of 5/8" at chine seam. What is your opinion?| 32521|32521|2015-05-19 01:38:00|jonhackett1958|Tortue for sale|For Sale Brent Swain 36' bilge keel. “Tortue”Launched in September 2005.Pilot house widened 18” from plans.Servo rudder self steering with interior station and e-tiller pilot, rigged to linkage in pilot house.On deck SS anchor winch/spoolTabernacle mast footReversible forward hatchSS cabin top/pilot house grab rails Though hulls are 316 SS pipe and valves.Twin bottle propane locker aft. Exterior coatings above the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302h Two coats Ameron 235, One coat Ameron two part polyurethaneThree coats Brightside one part polyurethane Exterior coatings below the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302hOne coat Ameron 235Four coats coal tar epoxy Several alternating coats of bottom paint (red, blue and black) 2-1/2” spray foamed interior over 3 coats of Ameron 235All interior wood bulkheads, floors, cabinetry, furring, wall and ceiling coverings are epoxy impregnated mahogany marine grade wood and plywoods.Heavy-duty bitts, railings, bow rollers, companionway door, hawsers and all the rest that goes with a Brent Swain boat. Sails All made in 2006 by North Sails of Seattle, WAMain – Triple reef, heavy (9oz), loose footGenoa – 130% - set up for roller furlingJib – 90% - also set up for roller furling (rigged, but never sailed) Storm sail – 12oz. hank on for inner stay (rigged, but never sailed)All come with North Sail bags Rig Mast – schedule 10 corten steelAll fittings and friction areas are 304/316 stainless alloysStainless shoe on mast baseDual downwind running poles – super easy/safeAluminum roller furling – rigged with 3/8” roller line and large drum for easy furling Mast steps – SSCleats, spreaders, winch pads, gooseneck, pad eyes , rub points etc. - All SSMasthead wiring is all external and tastefully routedWire rope is 7/19 stainless where friction is an issue, (forestay, fore and aft shrouds).Double backstays and main shrouds are 1X7 – 5/16” HT galvanized with 1/2” galvanized turnbuckles throughout.Boom is an aluminum section from a 20 meter racing sloop. (cut down of course)Reefing lines are easily accessible near the gooseneckLazy jacks riggedIncluded - 5/16” swaging tool for nicopress sleeves EngineIsuzu 4LC1 40hp diesel >600hrs – New in crate, from Lassen Marine 2005Skeg cooled50 gallon aluminum fuel tank with sight glassTriple fuel filter arrangement (switchable X2)All stainless dry exhaustExtra heavy ZF reverse gear with coolerSump pump oil change arrangementEasily accessible, serviceable and removable.Aquamet 1-1/4” shaftBronze 3 blade propDripless shaftsealShaft tube is 2-1/2”OD X 1/4” wall SS tube Electrical All wiring is marine grade tinned and gauged accordingly.Isolation transformer Charles 3000 wattBattery Charger – Trace 20amp/1500watt charger/inverterTwo Siemens 85 watt solar panels mounted aft on an archTrace charging regulator for solar panelsAir-Marine 403 wind generator - mounted aftTwo Dyno 400ah 6v batteriesOne Dyno 12v group 30 starting batteryAll wiring terminals led to panel in pilot house.All grounds are home-run to panel. Electronics all new in 2006 Furuno 16mi Radar Icom VHFGarmin depth/fishfinder (transom mounted)Garmin GPSmap 76Navico TP300 tillerpilot Galley/Cabin/Head Force 10 - 3 burner stove with oven120 gallons in three Vetus bladder tanks - aft, mid and fore. Intake valves for each and a manifold under the galley sink for switching.Cold pressure water, cold hand-pump water and raw water foot-pump.Dual water filter setup for untreated water sources.High efficient small wood stove with door glass and SS heat-shield surround. (4 hrs burn time per load).Icebox - aluminum with 5-6” foam insulationSpace allotted for a cheap dorm fridge. (my current one has worked for 8 years). Plenty of cabinet space for dishes, pots, pans, pantry items and utensils.Salon table drops to make a double bed amidships.Forward berth is 8' long. Sail/bedding storage beneathJabsco head with three-way waste routing. (to 26 gal. tank or through-hull, or manual pump-out of tank to through-hull.Offset salon table turns to provide easy access for diners, as well as a weather rail for the cook.There are many more details that altogether, make for a sensible, cozy and safe boat.I have a lot of spares aand goodies that go with her, including a zodiac 8' dinghy. My asking price is $55K.I am flexible to a point, as I have a lot invested in her. Please feel free to contact me at jonhackett@... | 32522|32521|2015-05-19 03:50:48|Hannu Venermo|Re: Tortue for sale|I am not buying, atm, but it might be useful to indicate; Where is the boat ? Is moorage possible there, ongoing, and at what cost ? -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32523|32523|2015-05-19 15:10:54|brentswain38|Folding bike|Bikes for boaters are cheap unless you want  a folding one. Then they get expensive. I find a folding bike far easier to get ashore in a dinghy, without getting it wet in salt water.A young bike mechanic recently told me of a simple way to convert a regular bike into a folding bike. Just saw it in half, then use welded on pipe couplers to reconnect the two halves. Galvanized couplings will probably last the life of the bike, but stainless ones are common in scrapyards around here. Half inch or 3/4 inch ones should be  about right. If they are both the same size , you can make up a wrench to connect them.You can put gear shift levers under the seat ,so they will come cleanly in two halves. Two sepaerate  halves are much easier to put in a dingy than one folded bike. I found having a front brake only is all I ever needed. I was worried about cartwheeling, but  that was  no problem.| 32524|32523|2015-05-19 20:13:11|opuspaul|Re: Folding bike|That is a good idea.   I like the idea of having full size tires.   I used to have a tiny wheeled Dahon folding bike.  It's excellent gearing made it feel like riding a big bike but it would bog down on soft terrain.   This guy has done an elegant design.....it would not be too hard to do something like this using the plumbing fittings....https://vimeo.com/35845538  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Bikes for boaters are cheap unless you want  a folding one. Then they get expensive. I find a folding bike far easier to get ashore in a dinghy, without getting it wet in salt water.A young bike mechanic recently told me of a simple way to convert a regular bike into a folding bike. Just saw it in half, then use welded on pipe couplers to reconnect the two halves. Galvanized couplings will probably last the life of the bike, but stainless ones are common in scrapyards around here. Half inch or 3/4 inch ones should be  about right. If they are both the same size , you can make up a wrench to connect them.You can put gear shift levers under the seat ,so they will come cleanly in two halves. Two sepaerate  halves are much easier to put in a dingy than one folded bike. I found having a front brake only is all I ever needed. I was worried about cartwheeling, but  that was  no problem. | 32525|32523|2015-05-20 14:35:37|a.sobriquet|Re: Folding bike|Clever idea, Paul. Here is another link giving more information. Note that it doesn't seem to have either cable brakes or cable shifting. But maybe the cables could be run along the toptube.http://www.designboom.com/readers/folding-bike-by-philip-crewe/  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That is a good idea.   I like the idea of having full size tires.   I used to have a tiny wheeled Dahon folding bike.  It's excellent gearing made it feel like riding a big bike but it would bog down on soft terrain.   This guy has done an elegant design.....it would not be too hard to do something like this using the plumbing fittings....https://vimeo.com/35845538  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Bikes for boaters are cheap unless you want  a folding one. Then they get expensive. I find a folding bike far easier to get ashore in a dinghy, without getting it wet in salt water.A young bike mechanic recently told me of a simple way to convert a regular bike into a folding bike. Just saw it in half, then use welded on pipe couplers to reconnect the two halves. Galvanized couplings will probably last the life of the bike, but stainless ones are common in scrapyards around here. Half inch or 3/4 inch ones should be  about right. If they are both the same size , you can make up a wrench to connect them.You can put gear shift levers under the seat ,so they will come cleanly in two halves. Two sepaerate  halves are much easier to put in a dingy than one folded bike. I found having a front brake only is all I ever needed. I was worried about cartwheeling, but  that was  no problem. | 32526|32523|2015-05-20 19:36:30|brentswain38|Re: Folding bike|Sorry for the typo. What I was referring to was pipe unions, not couplers . Pipe Unions don't  have to rotate to connect.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Bikes for boaters are cheap unless you want  a folding one. Then they get expensive. I find a folding bike far easier to get ashore in a dinghy, without getting it wet in salt water.A young bike mechanic recently told me of a simple way to convert a regular bike into a folding bike. Just saw it in half, then use welded on pipe couplers to reconnect the two halves. Galvanized couplings will probably last the life of the bike, but stainless ones are common in scrapyards around here. Half inch or 3/4 inch ones should be  about right. If they are both the same size , you can make up a wrench to connect them.You can put gear shift levers under the seat ,so they will come cleanly in two halves. Two sepaerate  halves are much easier to put in a dingy than one folded bike. I found having a front brake only is all I ever needed. I was worried about cartwheeling, but  that was  no problem.| 32527|32521|2015-05-21 00:54:38|jonhackett1958|Re: Tortue for sale|Sorry gang! The boat is located in Seattle (Ballard). Moorage available. 400/mo. Please don't PM me, use my email jonhackett@...| 32528|32523|2015-05-21 16:53:03|brentswain38|Re: Folding bike|I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter. I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. If it does, unlike ball bearings, I will get plenty of warning  ,instead of the  ball bearings habit of surprising you, by seizing up suddenly in the middle of nowhere .| 32529|32523|2015-05-21 17:13:11|opuspaul|Re: Folding bike|It sounds like the cranks were reversed on your bicycle.   They should be left hand thread on the left pedal and right hand thread on the right pedal.   They do this exactly for the reason you say....so they won't unwind themselves at the wrong time.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter. I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. If it does, unlike ball bearings, I will get plenty of warning  ,instead of the  ball bearings habit of surprising you, by seizing up suddenly in the middle of nowhere .| 32530|32523|2015-05-21 17:21:47|Matt Malone|Re: Folding bike| Left on the right, right on the left is the way it should be.  I know some applications it is left on the left, but not for bike pedals on an axle that threads into the crank arm.  On cheap bikes they are both right hand thread and the right hand pedal falls off if the ball bearings fail.   Pedalling backwards before it falls out will thread it back in.  I like the solid poly solution.  Easy to grease.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:13:11 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Folding bike   It sounds like the cranks were reversed on your bicycle.   They should be left hand thread on the left pedal and right hand thread on the right pedal.   They do this exactly for the reason you say....so they won't unwind themselves at the wrong time.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter. I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. If it does, unlike ball bearings, I will get plenty of warning  ,instead of the  ball bearings habit of surprising you, by seizing up suddenly in the middle of nowhere . | 32531|32523|2015-05-21 18:32:21|opuspaul|Re: Folding bike|I am not sure what you mean.   I assume we are talking about the pedal spindle and how it threads into the crank.   The left pedal spindle is the one with the reverse thread. http://www.condorcycles.com/workshop/how-to-remove-pedals.html Quote >>>>"Remember, the left pedal spindle is reverse threaded, so turn clockwise to remove the pedal when facing the crank arm. The right side is normal, so turn it anti-clockwise to loosen it." I have always found that the bearings in the pedals give a little bit of warning before failing....normally a slight clicking as you pedal.  It is normally easy to feel turning the pedal by hand.   My wife will ride a bike until it almost falls apart before saying anything.   I have to ride her bike myself once in awhile to make sure the bike is actually OK and she doesn't get stranded somewhere.  She won't even make sure the tires are inflated properly and then complains about it being hard to pedal.....drives me nuts.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-306408691 #ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373 .ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-306408691 #ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373 .ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Left on the right, right on the left is the way it should be.  I know some applications it is left on the left, but not for bike pedals on an axle that threads into the crank arm.  On cheap bikes they are both right hand thread and the right hand pedal falls off if the ball bearings fail.   Pedalling backwards before it falls out will thread it back in.  I like the solid poly solution.  Easy to grease.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:13:11 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Folding bike  It sounds like the cranks were reversed on your bicycle.   They should be left hand thread on the left pedal and right hand thread on the right pedal.   They do this exactly for the reason you say....so they won't unwind themselves at the wrong time.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter. I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. 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#ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373 .ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-306408691ygrps-yiv-1180838373ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 32532|32523|2015-05-21 19:26:32|Matt Malone|Re: Folding bike| This is geeometry.  Design is a separate issue.  Design sometimes dictates backwards geometry to meet other goals.   The geometry to make the right pedal not fall off is left hand thread. I have no doubt some manufacturers put them on right on right, but if you are looking at the bike from the right the crank arm goes clockwise in forward pedalling and with the foot holding the pedal flat this has the effect of putting a counter clockwise rotation of the pedal on its spindle. If the pedal seizes to the spindle this puts a counterclockwise rotation on the spindle relative to the crank which promptly un-threads right hand threads.  Sit on the ground and crank the bike over by hand to verify the sense of everything and this geometry.  A manufacturer might purposely put right on right so the pedal DOES fall off before the spindle is irreversibly ruined and is torqued into the crank with the power of human legs, possibly ruining the alloy crank trying to unthread it.  Lots of design reasons to put them on "backwards", left on left, right on right.   Whatever.  The sense to make it not fall off is lefthand thread on the right pedal spindle. This is an imagination quiz.  Small trailer wheels have 4 or 5 bolts, car wheels are 4, 5 or 6 nuts on studs.   Put a T wrench on them and hold the T level like a pedal and turn the wheel.  Assuming right hand threads, which direction spinning the tire with the T wrench flat will thread the bolts in tighter on a trailer wheel, and which direction will thread the nuts tighter on the studs on a car wheel?  The answers are either clockwise or counterclockwise.  If someone posts a web site link they are not thinking like a mechanic with tools actually doing it.  If they get one or both answers wrong they are probably remembering what someone told them and not thinking like a mechanic with tools actually doing it.  If you think like a mechanic, you can learn something interesting. Before listening to what someone says about which way a bolt or nut should thread on, think about it yourself, turn it over by hand if you have to, consider a T wrench on it if it helps.   Then consider there are geometry reasons and design reasons for it to be one way or the other and they may not agree.   Then ask someone which sense it should turn or which threads it should have and then ask them why.   If they come up with a geometry reason when you have determined geometry is actually the opposite direction ASK SOMEONE ELSE.   There is a lot of old disinformation about where to use right and left threads and there are a lot of people who think they are 100% right when they are 100% wrong.   Keep this in mind when you are looking at rotating machinery (repowering for instance).  I can save a lot of headaches later. And of course, cotter pins are the better answer.  I would always use cotter pins.   I would prefer locking geometry where inertia cannot cause locking geometry to turn an axle into a barber shop pole, and backwards or unlocking geometry where an axle twisted like a barber pole would be worse then unlocking.  I think we have twisted everything out of the left hand right hand threads topic. I still prefer the block of poly. Matt "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am not sure what you mean.   I assume we are talking about the pedal spindle and how it threads into the crank.   The left pedal spindle is the one with the reverse thread. http://www.condorcycles.com/workshop/how-to-remove-pedals.html Quote >>>>"Remember, the left pedal spindle is reverse threaded, so turn clockwise to remove the pedal when facing the crank arm. The right side is normal, so turn it anti-clockwise to loosen it." I have always found that the bearings in the pedals give a little bit of warning before failing....normally a slight clicking as you pedal.  It is normally easy to feel turning the pedal by hand.   My wife will ride a bike until it almost falls apart before saying anything.   I have to ride her bike myself once in awhile to make sure the bike is actually OK and she doesn't get stranded somewhere.  She won't even make sure the tires are inflated properly and then complains about it being hard to pedal.....drives me nuts.  Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Left on the right, right on the left is the way it should be.  I know some applications it is left on the left, but not for bike pedals on an axle that threads into the crank arm.  On cheap bikes they are both right hand thread and the right hand pedal falls off if the ball bearings fail.   Pedalling backwards before it falls out will thread it back in.  I like the solid poly solution.  Easy to grease.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:13:11 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Folding bike   It sounds like the cranks were reversed on your bicycle.   They should be left hand thread on the left pedal and right hand thread on the right pedal.   They do this exactly for the reason you say....so they won't unwind themselves at the wrong time.  Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter.  I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. If it does, unlike ball bearings, I will get plenty of warning  ,instead of the  ball bearings habit of surprising you, by seizing up suddenly in the middle of nowhere .   | 32533|32523|2015-05-21 19:56:31|opuspaul|Re: Folding bike|You got me thinking and got me searching.....what you say makes sense but it makes no sense that all bicycles would be made the "wrong" way.  Here is the real explanation of why the left pedal is left hand thread.http://sheldonbrown.com/pedals.html Pedal Threading The right pedal has a normal thread, but the left pedal has a left (reverse) thread. The reason for this is not obvious: The force from bearing friction would, in fact, tend to unscrew pedals threaded in this manner. It is not the bearing friction that makes pedals unscrew themselves, but a phenomenon called "precession". You can demonstrate this to yourself by performing a simple experiment. Hold a pencil loosely in one fist, and move the end of it in a circle. You will see that the pencil, as it contacts the inside of your fist, rotates in the opposite direction. This occurs because the pencil's diameter is smaller than that of the opening in your fist. The external threads of the pedal axle are slightly smaller, also, than the internal threads of the crank -- or they wouldn't fit! Ignorant people outside the bicycle industry sometimes make the astonishing discovery that the way it has been done for 100 years is "wrong." "Look at these fools, they go to the trouble of using a left thread on one pedal, then the bozos go and put the left thread on the wrong side! Shows that bicycle designers have no idea what they are doing..." Another popular theory of armchair engineers is that the threads are done this way so that, if the pedal bearing locks up, the pedal will unscrew itself instead of breaking the rider's ankle. The left-threaded left pedal was not the result of armchair theorizing, it was a solution to a real problem: people's left pedals kept unscrewing! We have read that this was invented by the Wright Brothers, but we are not sure of this. .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 .ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}This is geeometry.  Design is a separate issue.  Design sometimes dictates backwards geometry to meet other goals.   The geometry to make the right pedal not fall off is left hand thread. I have no doubt some manufacturers put them on right on right, but if you are looking at the bike from the right the crank arm goes clockwise in forward pedalling and with the foot holding the pedal flat this has the effect of putting a counter clockwise rotation of the pedal on its spindle. If the pedal seizes to the spindle this puts a counterclockwise rotation on the spindle relative to the crank which promptly un-threads right hand threads.  Sit on the ground and crank the bike over by hand to verify the sense of everything and this geometry.  A manufacturer might purposely put right on right so the pedal DOES fall off before the spindle is irreversibly ruined and is torqued into the crank with the power of human legs, possibly ruining the alloy crank trying to unthread it.  Lots of design reasons to put them on "backwards", left on left, right on right.   Whatever.  The sense to make it not fall off is lefthand thread on the right pedal spindle. This is an imagination quiz.  Small trailer wheels have 4 or 5 bolts, car wheels are 4, 5 or 6 nuts on studs.   Put a T wrench on them and hold the T level like a pedal and turn the wheel.  Assuming right hand threads, which direction spinning the tire with the T wrench flat will thread the bolts in tighter on a trailer wheel, and which direction will thread the nuts tighter on the studs on a car wheel?  The answers are either clockwise or counterclockwise.  If someone posts a web site link they are not thinking like a mechanic with tools actually doing it.  If they get one or both answers wrong they are probably remembering what someone told them and not thinking like a mechanic with tools actually doing it.  If you think like a mechanic, you can learn something interesting. Before listening to what someone says about which way a bolt or nut should thread on, think about it yourself, turn it over by hand if you have to, consider a T wrench on it if it helps.   Then consider there are geometry reasons and design reasons for it to be one way or the other and they may not agree.   Then ask someone which sense it should turn or which threads it should have and then ask them why.   If they come up with a geometry reason when you have determined geometry is actually the opposite direction ASK SOMEONE ELSE.   There is a lot of old disinformation about where to use right and left threads and there are a lot of people who think they are 100% right when they are 100% wrong.   Keep this in mind when you are looking at rotating machinery (repowering for instance).  I can save a lot of headaches later. And of course, cotter pins are the better answer.  I would always use cotter pins.   I would prefer locking geometry where inertia cannot cause locking geometry to turn an axle into a barber shop pole, and backwards or unlocking geometry where an axle twisted like a barber pole would be worse then unlocking.  I think we have twisted everything out of the left hand right hand threads topic. I still prefer the block of poly. Matt "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am not sure what you mean.   I assume we are talking about the pedal spindle and how it threads into the crank.   The left pedal spindle is the one with the reverse thread. http://www.condorcycles.com/workshop/how-to-remove-pedals.html Quote >>>>"Remember, the left pedal spindle is reverse threaded, so turn clockwise to remove the pedal when facing the crank arm. The right side is normal, so turn it anti-clockwise to loosen it." I have always found that the bearings in the pedals give a little bit of warning before failing....normally a slight clicking as you pedal.  It is normally easy to feel turning the pedal by hand.   My wife will ride a bike until it almost falls apart before saying anything.   I have to ride her bike myself once in awhile to make sure the bike is actually OK and she doesn't get stranded somewhere.  She won't even make sure the tires are inflated properly and then complains about it being hard to pedal.....drives me nuts.  Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Left on the right, right on the left is the way it should be.  I know some applications it is left on the left, but not for bike pedals on an axle that threads into the crank arm.  On cheap bikes they are both right hand thread and the right hand pedal falls off if the ball bearings fail.   Pedalling backwards before it falls out will thread it back in.  I like the solid poly solution.  Easy to grease.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:13:11 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Folding bike  It sounds like the cranks were reversed on your bicycle.   They should be left hand thread on the left pedal and right hand thread on the right pedal.   They do this exactly for the reason you say....so they won't unwind themselves at the wrong time.  Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter.  I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. If it does, unlike ball bearings, I will get plenty of warning  ,instead of the  ball bearings habit of surprising you, by seizing up suddenly in the middle of nowhere .  #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ads {margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 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#ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ov {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ov {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ov {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-text {margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-text {font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1907155088 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196 #ygrps-yiv-1907155088ygrps-yiv-404151196x_ygrp-vital {border-right:none!important;}| 32534|32523|2015-05-22 09:42:10|Matt Malone|Re: Folding bike| Yes, precession is real.  Trying to keep this relevant to people on boats, it is possible to have precession loosening any time your threads are parallel to the axle and there are cyclic radial loads.   Whenever the bolts are parallel to the shaft, if the bolts at any time get loose enough that there is even the smallest amount of movement, the bolts will either tighten or loosen depending on the sense of the rotation.   So what keeps the pedals on cheap bikes where both of them are right hand thread?   What keeps the right handed wheel nuts and bolts on the wheels on BOTH sides of a car or trailer?   Often there is a fitted flange where the threads themselves are protected from the precessing radial loads.  So rims usually sit on a centre hub, the wheel nuts usually do not carry the cyclic radial loads.   On a car, between the transmission and clutch and between the clutch and rear of the engine, for those two mating surfaces, the surfaces usually nest together on a rim or lip.  the bolts are again protected from the radial loads.  Still there are times that threads run through two flat surfaces and hold them together where the surfaces are perpendicular to the axis, and the threads are parallel to the axis and their may be cyclic radial loads.  Cyclic radial loads are not always obvious.  They may be some type of engine or equipment vibration that is unavoidable.  Cyclic loading may also be from something being slightly unbalanced -- nothing is perfectly balanced.  This is why, when rotating things get very unbalanced you start seeing things loosen.  There is nearly always some bolts on both ends of the rotating machinery, so the sense of rotation is opposite for at least some of them.  Why don't half of them unscrew? Back to bikes for a moment.  If the pedals are put on so precession tightens them, then, over time, do the pedals continue to thread in more and more so that at some point, it is impossible to unthread them?  No.  At some point they get tight enough there is no more relative movement and precession stops.  This happens when the preload on the threads matches the cyclic load and stops relative movement.  Grip that pencil tightly enough and it will not precess.   So, if one uses the "wrong" direction threads but tightens them just a little more, so that the preload exceeds the cyclic load, there is no precession.  One has to account for bolt stretch, changes over time, etc.   Washers can be very important to the calculations.Also, the precession explanation relies on the assumption of straight threads that cannot be tight thread to thread.   There is something else, called tapered threads, used in a lot of applications, like plumbing.  Tighten those properly and there can be no precession. In certain points, my tractor used bolts with small holes drilled through the heads that wire was woven through.  The differential, a bolted-together cage on my tractor, was one such place.   There is special Monel wire for marine applications for just this purpose, keeping things from unthreading.  There are many possible solutions other than left hand threads or hoping the loading will always lead to tightening, not loosening.  So if the instructions dictate a torque level, use a torque wrench.   If the instructions dictate retorquing at some point, follow the instructions.  Balancing of rotating equipment is actually important to keep cyclic loads below some threshold.  Washers may be part of the solution, so, if you drop a washer, find it, do not put the bolt or nut on without all the hardware prescribed.  There are any number of small but hazardous effects that these procedures might be protecting against not yet explored in the bicycle example.  Not all of them will be immediately obvious.   These are things to keep in mind when putting together a power train for your boat yourself.    And as always, if you are interested, keep digging until you find the answer.   Thank you for reminding me about precession.  Engineering school was a long time ago.     Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 21 May 2015 16:56:30 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Folding bike   You got me thinking and got me searching.....what you say makes sense but it makes no sense that all bicycles would be made the "wrong" way.  Here is the real explanation of why the left pedal is left hand thread.http://sheldonbrown.com/pedals.html Pedal Threading The right pedal has a normal thread, but the left pedal has a left (reverse) thread. The reason for this is not obvious: The force from bearing friction would, in fact, tend to unscrew pedals threaded in this manner. It is not the bearing friction that makes pedals unscrew themselves, but a phenomenon called "precession". You can demonstrate this to yourself by performing a simple experiment. Hold a pencil loosely in one fist, and move the end of it in a circle. You will see that the pencil, as it contacts the inside of your fist, rotates in the opposite direction. This occurs because the pencil's diameter is smaller than that of the opening in your fist. The external threads of the pedal axle are slightly smaller, also, than the internal threads of the crank -- or they wouldn't fit! Ignorant people outside the bicycle industry sometimes make the astonishing discovery that the way it has been done for 100 years is "wrong." "Look at these fools, they go to the trouble of using a left thread on one pedal, then the bozos go and put the left thread on the wrong side! Shows that bicycle designers have no idea what they are doing..." Another popular theory of armchair engineers is that the threads are done this way so that, if the pedal bearing locks up, the pedal will unscrew itself instead of breaking the rider's ankle. The left-threaded left pedal was not the result of armchair theorizing, it was a solution to a real problem: people's left pedals kept unscrewing! We have read that this was invented by the Wright Brothers, but we are not sure of this. .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This is geeometry.  Design is a separate issue.  Design sometimes dictates backwards geometry to meet other goals.   The geometry to make the right pedal not fall off is left hand thread. I have no doubt some manufacturers put them on right on right, but if you are looking at the bike from the right the crank arm goes clockwise in forward pedalling and with the foot holding the pedal flat this has the effect of putting a counter clockwise rotation of the pedal on its spindle. If the pedal seizes to the spindle this puts a counterclockwise rotation on the spindle relative to the crank which promptly un-threads right hand threads.  Sit on the ground and crank the bike over by hand to verify the sense of everything and this geometry.  A manufacturer might purposely put right on right so the pedal DOES fall off before the spindle is irreversibly ruined and is torqued into the crank with the power of human legs, possibly ruining the alloy crank trying to unthread it.  Lots of design reasons to put them on "backwards", left on left, right on right.   Whatever.  The sense to make it not fall off is lefthand thread on the right pedal spindle. This is an imagination quiz.  Small trailer wheels have 4 or 5 bolts, car wheels are 4, 5 or 6 nuts on studs.   Put a T wrench on them and hold the T level like a pedal and turn the wheel.  Assuming right hand threads, which direction spinning the tire with the T wrench flat will thread the bolts in tighter on a trailer wheel, and which direction will thread the nuts tighter on the studs on a car wheel?  The answers are either clockwise or counterclockwise.  If someone posts a web site link they are not thinking like a mechanic with tools actually doing it.  If they get one or both answers wrong they are probably remembering what someone told them and not thinking like a mechanic with tools actually doing it.  If you think like a mechanic, you can learn something interesting. Before listening to what someone says about which way a bolt or nut should thread on, think about it yourself, turn it over by hand if you have to, consider a T wrench on it if it helps.   Then consider there are geometry reasons and design reasons for it to be one way or the other and they may not agree.   Then ask someone which sense it should turn or which threads it should have and then ask them why.   If they come up with a geometry reason when you have determined geometry is actually the opposite direction ASK SOMEONE ELSE.   There is a lot of old disinformation about where to use right and left threads and there are a lot of people who think they are 100% right when they are 100% wrong.   Keep this in mind when you are looking at rotating machinery (repowering for instance).  I can save a lot of headaches later. And of course, cotter pins are the better answer.  I would always use cotter pins.   I would prefer locking geometry where inertia cannot cause locking geometry to turn an axle into a barber shop pole, and backwards or unlocking geometry where an axle twisted like a barber pole would be worse then unlocking.  I think we have twisted everything out of the left hand right hand threads topic. I still prefer the block of poly. Matt "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am not sure what you mean.   I assume we are talking about the pedal spindle and how it threads into the crank.   The left pedal spindle is the one with the reverse thread. http://www.condorcycles.com/workshop/how-to-remove-pedals.html Quote >>>>"Remember, the left pedal spindle is reverse threaded, so turn clockwise to remove the pedal when facing the crank arm. The right side is normal, so turn it anti-clockwise to loosen it." I have always found that the bearings in the pedals give a little bit of warning before failing....normally a slight clicking as you pedal.  It is normally easy to feel turning the pedal by hand.   My wife will ride a bike until it almost falls apart before saying anything.   I have to ride her bike myself once in awhile to make sure the bike is actually OK and she doesn't get stranded somewhere.  She won't even make sure the tires are inflated properly and then complains about it being hard to pedal.....drives me nuts.  Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Left on the right, right on the left is the way it should be.  I know some applications it is left on the left, but not for bike pedals on an axle that threads into the crank arm.  On cheap bikes they are both right hand thread and the right hand pedal falls off if the ball bearings fail.   Pedalling backwards before it falls out will thread it back in.  I like the solid poly solution.  Easy to grease.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:13:11 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Folding bike  It sounds like the cranks were reversed on your bicycle.   They should be left hand thread on the left pedal and right hand thread on the right pedal.   They do this exactly for the reason you say....so they won't unwind themselves at the wrong time.  Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I once had my ball bearing pedals crap out a long way from home. For some reason the threads on pedals are threaded the wrong way, so that when they screw up, they unthread every 50 feet and fall off, instead of threading on tighter.  I replaced them with something far more practical. I welded on a 7/16th stainles bolt and made the pedal out of 3/4 inch black poly sheet with a hole drilled thru it for the bolt. NO chance of anything freezing up.  I have been using this a lot ,for several years now, and there is no sign of wear. At the current rate of wear,  I dont think I could wear it out in my lifetime. If it does, unlike ball bearings, I will get plenty of warning  ,instead of the  ball bearings habit of surprising you, by seizing up suddenly in the middle of nowhere .   | 32535|32523|2015-05-22 14:06:49|brentswain38|Re: Folding bike|Bike mechanics tell me that all bikes have the same pedal thread arrangement  as mine. A bike shop dug a pedal out of its junk pile, which fit mine.Turn your bike upside down and turn the pedals in the normal rotation. Watch which way the pedal turns relative to the shaft. Does that unscrew the thread on that side if the pedal is frozen, or tighten it. Replacing it as I did resolves the problem, if you  pin the bolt  with a cotter pin. A friend told me he could take his bike on the plane to Cuba, as long as he could turn the pedals inwards. So I welded the 7/16th ss nut to  the pedal shaft,  making the pedal removable for plane rides. Best run a tap thru after welding.| 32536|32523|2015-05-22 17:16:08|opuspaul|Re: Folding bike|Matt, I am an avionics engineer and worked on aircraft for over 20 years.  Almost every critical bolt on an aircraft is either wired or pinned.   So I totally agree with you.  Like you say, back to boats.   I have a roll of SS lockwire on my boat and consider it a must have.  I use it all the time for wiring shackles and rigging.   The SS wire is what we used on aircraft and surprisingly cheap.  One bulk roll is probably cheaper than a few meters from a rigging shop and it will last many years.   A bunch of wraps around a hose can be used for a quick and easy emergency hose clamp.   I wouldn't go on a long trip without it.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Malin-MS20995C-Stainless-Steel-Safety-Wire-032-Dia-/271827070204  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1769804719 #ygrps-yiv-1769804719ygrps-yiv-1116723421 .ygrps-yiv-1769804719ygrps-yiv-1116723421hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1769804719 #ygrps-yiv-1769804719ygrps-yiv-1116723421 .ygrps-yiv-1769804719ygrps-yiv-1116723421hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Yes, precession is real.  Trying to keep this relevant to people on boats, it is possible to have precession loosening any time your threads are parallel to the axle and there are cyclic radial loads.   Whenever the bolts are parallel to the shaft, if the bolts at any time get loose enough that there is even the smallest amount of movement, the bolts will either tighten or loosen depending on the sense of the rotation.   So what keeps the pedals on cheap bikes where both of them are right hand thread?   What keeps the right handed wheel nuts and bolts on the wheels on BOTH sides of a car or trailer?   Often there is a fitted flange where the threads themselves are protected from the precessing radial loads.  So rims usually sit on a centre hub, the wheel nuts usually do not carry the cyclic radial loads.   On a car, between the transmission and clutch and between the clutch and rear of the engine, for those two mating surfaces, the surfaces usually nest together on a rim or lip.  the bolts are again protected from the radial loads.  Still there are times that threads run through two flat surfaces and hold them together where the surfaces are perpendicular to the axis, and the threads are parallel to the axis and their may be cyclic radial loads.  Cyclic radial loads are not always obvious.  They may be some type of engine or equipment vibration that is unavoidable.  Cyclic loading may also be from something being slightly unbalanced -- nothing is perfectly balanced.  This is why, when rotating things get very unbalanced you start seeing things loosen.  There is nearly always some bolts on both ends of the rotating machinery, so the sense of rotation is opposite for at least some of them.  Why don't half of them unscrew? Back to bikes for a moment.  If the pedals are put on so precession tightens them, then, over time, do the pedals continue to thread in more and more so that at some point, it is impossible to unthread them?  No.  At some point they get tight enough there is no more relative movement and precession stops.  This happens when the preload on the threads matches the cyclic load and stops relative movement.  Grip that pencil tightly enough and it will not precess.   So, if one uses the "wrong" direction threads but tightens them just a little more, so that the preload exceeds the cyclic load, there is no precession.  One has to account for bolt stretch, changes over time, etc.   Washers can be very important to the calculations.Also, the precession explanation relies on the assumption of straight threads that cannot be tight thread to thread.   There is something else, called tapered threads, used in a lot of applications, like plumbing.  Tighten those properly and there can be no precession. In certain points, my tractor used bolts with small holes drilled through the heads that wire was woven through.  The differential, a bolted-together cage on my tractor, was one such place.   There is special Monel wire for marine applications for just this purpose, keeping things from unthreading.  There are many possible solutions other than left hand threads or hoping the loading will always lead to tightening, not loosening.  So if the instructions dictate a torque level, use a torque wrench.   If the instructions dictate retorquing at some point, follow the instructions.  Balancing of rotating equipment is actually important to keep cyclic loads below some threshold.  Washers may be part of the solution, so, if you drop a washer, find it, do not put the bolt or nut on without all the hardware prescribed.  There are any number of small but hazardous effects that these procedures might be protecting against not yet explored in the bicycle example.  Not all of them will be immediately obvious.   These are things to keep in mind when putting together a power train for your boat yourself.    And as always, if you are interested, keep digging until you find the answer.   Thank you for reminding me about precession.  Engineering school was a long time ago.     Matt   | 32537|32523|2015-05-25 13:16:33|wild_explorer|Re: Folding bike|After reading all posts, I got myself cheap old (70-80th) bike for shopping and possible conversion. Light steel frame, one speed, kick brakes, fenders, leather seat with springs. No cables, very simple and comfortable. I do not see bikes with kick brakes anymore (only kids bikes). Bikes for women have smaller wheel base and easier to convert - it usually has frame with 2 parallel tubes.Pedals' bearings were gummed up and hard to turn, but deep penetrant (for frozen bolts) sprayed into bearings, followed by multi-purpose marine lubricant spray for outboard motors, restored bearings to like-new free rotating condition. Need to clean and lubricate/grease other bearings with automotive wheel bearings' grease to avoid future problems... So, little regular maintenance helps ;)| 32538|32538|2015-05-25 14:48:32|smallboatvoyaguer|Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| So, I have been working on my boat for awhile and have many, many people stop by and offer their two cents. All have been kind. A lot of people ask me if I trust my welds, which I always say yes, and I still say yes, but it got me thinking. I've only been welding now for almost a year, self taught from a book, and by talking to friends in the industry. I've even had the local welding instructor come by to give me the thumbs up. The welding instructor actually seems to be the least concerned about my welds. It all got me thinking... What is acceptable, in our little origami boat building community? Has any one had welds fail once the boat is complete, and in the water? I started reading more stuff online, and generally the literature I come across gives me the impression that one little flaw is all it takes, and the entire works will come undone. Yet, I look at some hand built boats around here, and I see some pretty shoddy weld beads. I see fish tugs almost fifty years old that have frozen in almost every winter of their lifetime, standing strong, with what is clearly decades of none-certified, borderline careless, welding repairs all over the craft. A little bit of undercut here, a little to much of a deposit there, too much heat, too little, at what point is anyone becoming overly concerned? I always go over the weld afterwards, grinding out slag pockets and replacing material, and fill in undercut with a 3/32" rod. I've been scoring the outside of the weld before laying my outside beads. Thoughts?-Marlin| 32539|32523|2015-05-25 15:04:37|brentswain38|Re: Folding bike|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Women's bikes are far easier to get off in a sudden emergency, or when you have something big and bulky on the back rack. I avoid the other kind.Big wheels are a pain in the ass, when  loading it into a dinghy.After reading all posts, I got myself cheap old (70-80th) bike for shopping and possible conversion. Light steel frame, one speed, kick brakes, fenders, leather seat with springs. No cables, very simple and comfortable. I do not see bikes with kick brakes anymore (only kids bikes). Bikes for women have smaller wheel base and easier to convert - it usually has frame with 2 parallel tubes.Pedals' bearings were gummed up and hard to turn, but deep penetrant (for frozen bolts) sprayed into bearings, followed by multi-purpose marine lubricant spray for outboard motors, restored bearings to like-new free rotating condition. Need to clean and lubricate/grease other bearings with automotive wheel bearings' grease to avoid future problems... So, little regular maintenance helps ;)| 32540|32538|2015-05-25 15:35:24|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|How does even the worst weld compare in strength with a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches? How does it compare to random glass fibres held together by polyester glue ( frozen snot)? When I get a " first time ever welding" client building a boat, I let him weld the lugs on, for pulling it together. When we no longer need them, I give him a sledge hammer, and let him break them off . He usually bends the lug back and forth many times,till he is dripping in sweat,  and when it breaks, it breaks well up from the weld.   Then I ask him "Are you still worried about the strength of your welds? What would that  kind of hammering do to a fibreglass boat, or a wooden one? Even  a " Lloyds" approved" one"? I once trained a young guy how to weld and fabricate, on one of my 36 footers . He learned quickly, and did  a great job, then went to school and got his welding ticket. Then he worked in fabricating shops for  a while. He later commented that "most welders, when it comes to embellishing their importance,  and the criticalness of what they do, are incredibly full of shit." I have had arguments with welders who claimed that dragging a rod across the steel weakens it, to the point where it may break at that point So why doesn't it bend differently at that point? It definitely would, if it were changed in any significant way, What a crock of nit picking bullshit!When most steel boats of the size I do are made of 1/8th inch hull plate,  you can have a lot of undercut on 3/16th without getting anywhere near that thickness. And 1/8th is a huge overkill in terms of strength,  compared to plastic and wooden hulls.I have never heard of a back yard built steel boat ever having a weld break, in my over 40 years of cruising, and I have encountered a lot of them, and I have seen some pretty horrendous welding on some of them. Check out some of the uphand welding on BC Ferries,  done by people who have almost every welding qualification ever invented. A chicken can shit straighter in a gale!However, I have often seen such  nitpicking  cause what should be a one year project turned into a very expensive ten year or more project, with no real improvement in the function of the final product..Haidan has a good way of putting it;"You are not building a nuclear submarine!"---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So, I have been working on my boat for awhile and have many, many people stop by and offer their two cents. All have been kind. A lot of people ask me if I trust my welds, which I always say yes, and I still say yes, but it got me thinking. I've only been welding now for almost a year, self taught from a book, and by talking to friends in the industry. I've even had the local welding instructor come by to give me the thumbs up. The welding instructor actually seems to be the least concerned about my welds. It all got me thinking... What is acceptable, in our little origami boat building community? Has any one had welds fail once the boat is complete, and in the water? I started reading more stuff online, and generally the literature I come across gives me the impression that one little flaw is all it takes, and the entire works will come undone. Yet, I look at some hand built boats around here, and I see some pretty shoddy weld beads. I see fish tugs almost fifty years old that have frozen in almost every winter of their lifetime, standing strong, with what is clearly decades of none-certified, borderline careless, welding repairs all over the craft. A little bit of undercut here, a little to much of a deposit there, too much heat, too little, at what point is anyone becoming overly concerned? I always go over the weld afterwards, grinding out slag pockets and replacing material, and fill in undercut with a 3/32" rod. I've been scoring the outside of the weld before laying my outside beads. Thoughts?-Marlin| 32541|32538|2015-05-25 16:11:05|opuspaul|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Brent, good post.....Marlin, from what you have said, you have nothing to worry about.   Welding steel is not rocket science.  I was the same as you, totally self taught with stick welding.   If it looks good, and you have full penetration then you have nothing to worry about.   The only exception to this I have found is welding aluminum.  You can do a  beautiful looking, fully penetrated weld in aluminum that has very little strength.  It is all in how you set up the machine.   Gary has written about this in past posts.   If I was going to build a boat out of aluminum, I would do a good trade course first or have someone very experienced teach me and set me straight.   Most of the people who stop and look are full of it.    It is too easy to see the roadblocks to progress and  they can't stand seeing someone doing something.   I don't know what it is, maybe it makes them feel guilty but they love to tear you down.   I lost count of the number of people who told me that I would never get my boat done or never sail offshore.   Sometimes it was good friends saying it.   They may have been just teasing or kidding but this kind of talk kills dreams.   It is hard enought as it is so don't let these people get you down.  Just keep plugging away and ignore everyone unless they have actually built a boat or done something.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How does even the worst weld compare in strength with a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches? How does it compare to random glass fibres held together by polyester glue ( frozen snot)? When I get a " first time ever welding" client building a boat, I let him weld the lugs on, for pulling it together. When we no longer need them, I give him a sledge hammer, and let him break them off . He usually bends the lug back and forth many times,till he is dripping in sweat,  and when it breaks, it breaks well up from the weld.   Then I ask him "Are you still worried about the strength of your welds? What would that  kind of hammering do to a fibreglass boat, or a wooden one? Even  a " Lloyds" approved" one"? I once trained a young guy how to weld and fabricate, on one of my 36 footers . He learned quickly, and did  a great job, then went to school and got his welding ticket. Then he worked in fabricating shops for  a while. He later commented that "most welders, when it comes to embellishing their importance,  and the criticalness of what they do, are incredibly full of shit." I have had arguments with welders who claimed that dragging a rod across the steel weakens it, to the point where it may break at that point So why doesn't it bend differently at that point? It definitely would, if it were changed in any significant way, What a crock of nit picking bullshit!When most steel boats of the size I do are made of 1/8th inch hull plate,  you can have a lot of undercut on 3/16th without getting anywhere near that thickness. And 1/8th is a huge overkill in terms of strength,  compared to plastic and wooden hulls.I have never heard of a back yard built steel boat ever having a weld break, in my over 40 years of cruising, and I have encountered a lot of them, and I have seen some pretty horrendous welding on some of them. Check out some of the uphand welding on BC Ferries,  done by people who have almost every welding qualification ever invented. A chicken can shit straighter in a gale!However, I have often seen such  nitpicking  cause what should be a one year project turned into a very expensive ten year or more project, with no real improvement in the function of the final product..Haidan has a good way of putting it;"You are not building a nuclear submarine!"---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So, I have been working on my boat for awhile and have many, many people stop by and offer their two cents. All have been kind. A lot of people ask me if I trust my welds, which I always say yes, and I still say yes, but it got me thinking. I've only been welding now for almost a year, self taught from a book, and by talking to friends in the industry. I've even had the local welding instructor come by to give me the thumbs up. The welding instructor actually seems to be the least concerned about my welds. It all got me thinking... What is acceptable, in our little origami boat building community? Has any one had welds fail once the boat is complete, and in the water? I started reading more stuff online, and generally the literature I come across gives me the impression that one little flaw is all it takes, and the entire works will come undone. Yet, I look at some hand built boats around here, and I see some pretty shoddy weld beads. I see fish tugs almost fifty years old that have frozen in almost every winter of their lifetime, standing strong, with what is clearly decades of none-certified, borderline careless, welding repairs all over the craft. A little bit of undercut here, a little to much of a deposit there, too much heat, too little, at what point is anyone becoming overly concerned? I always go over the weld afterwards, grinding out slag pockets and replacing material, and fill in undercut with a 3/32" rod. I've been scoring the outside of the weld before laying my outside beads. Thoughts?-Marlin| 32542|32538|2015-05-25 17:03:20|Matt Malone|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| Sometimes it is about stiffness and energy.   Swing a sledge hammer as hard as you can against a rubber boot.   Swing a sledge hammer as hard as you can against a little sample with a poor weld.  Why will the boot come away with only a scuff and the weld will either permanently bend or, if really poor, break?   Stiffness.   The stiffness of the steel for a given energy will produce greater forces.   Yes, there are greater forces inside a steel boat's parts when it hits something than wood or fibreglass boat of the same weight and cargo.   Would a steel mallet or lead mallet of the same weight be better for breaking rocks?   The steel mallet of course because it is stiffer, so the contact forces are higher, the force in the head of the mallet and the force against the rock is higher.   So apples and oranges.   I am not going to say there is a comparison, when, it becomes far less clear when one considers well-constructed non-metal boats.   Yes, crap random chopper gun boats, that people are encouraged to take onto the ocean on good days, no, I prefer steel thank you.  But, when everything goes to hell on your big steel ship or oil rig and you run to the lifeboat ... that is made to drop 30 feet to the water..... it is made of well constructed fibreglass.  Those are tough little boats.   As for unzippering -- one little failure leading to the entire thing -- it takes a great deal to start an opening    Tape the seams of a cardboard box and compare it to a box with one seam not taped.  Once an opening starts, how it travels depends on flexing at the edges of the failure.   Strong points along the line of failure can stop it: like a gusset or bulkhead, frame or tankage boundary.   Size has a huge influence.  I would be more careful the larger the boat gets.   The longer a boat gets, the more leverage the remote parts of the boat have on either side of a failure.  The longer the boat is, the more area it has, by the square of length, therefore, the more force one will experience from a given pressure.   The longer and more massive the boat is, the more separate it becomes from the local water and more rooted it is in the remote water on the other side or other end.  A breaking wave on one side causes more pressure on the side of the boat when it is being tossed around.   Look at a piece of chaff on the water.  Watch it get thrown around.  It is easy to see, it never has a speed very different from the local water, so, less impact pressure.   More leverage times more area times more pressure means a lot more stress in a larger boat.  All of these factors would make me more cautious of my welds and details with a larger orgami.  Don't forget I said it would take a large force to start an opening in a closed hull.            Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 25 May 2015 13:11:04 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable   Brent, good post.....Marlin, from what you have said, you have nothing to worry about.   Welding steel is not rocket science.  I was the same as you, totally self taught with stick welding.   If it looks good, and you have full penetration then you have nothing to worry about.   The only exception to this I have found is welding aluminum.  You can do a  beautiful looking, fully penetrated weld in aluminum that has very little strength.  It is all in how you set up the machine.   Gary has written about this in past posts.   If I was going to build a boat out of aluminum, I would do a good trade course first or have someone very experienced teach me and set me straight.   Most of the people who stop and look are full of it.    It is too easy to see the roadblocks to progress and  they can't stand seeing someone doing something.   I don't know what it is, maybe it makes them feel guilty but they love to tear you down.   I lost count of the number of people who told me that I would never get my boat done or never sail offshore.   Sometimes it was good friends saying it.   They may have been just teasing or kidding but this kind of talk kills dreams.   It is hard enought as it is so don't let these people get you down.  Just keep plugging away and ignore everyone unless they have actually built a boat or done something.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How does even the worst weld compare in strength with a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches? How does it compare to random glass fibres held together by polyester glue ( frozen snot)? When I get a " first time ever welding" client building a boat, I let him weld the lugs on, for pulling it together. When we no longer need them, I give him a sledge hammer, and let him break them off . He usually bends the lug back and forth many times,till he is dripping in sweat,  and when it breaks, it breaks well up from the weld.   Then I ask him "Are you still worried about the strength of your welds? What would that  kind of hammering do to a fibreglass boat, or a wooden one? Even  a " Lloyds" approved" one"? I once trained a young guy how to weld and fabricate, on one of my 36 footers . He learned quickly, and did  a great job, then went to school and got his welding ticket. Then he worked in fabricating shops for  a while. He later commented that "most welders, when it comes to embellishing their importance,  and the criticalness of what they do, are incredibly full of shit." I have had arguments with welders who claimed that dragging a rod across the steel weakens it, to the point where it may break at that point So why doesn't it bend differently at that point? It definitely would, if it were changed in any significant way, What a crock of nit picking bullshit!When most steel boats of the size I do are made of 1/8th inch hull plate,  you can have a lot of undercut on 3/16th without getting anywhere near that thickness. And 1/8th is a huge overkill in terms of strength,  compared to plastic and wooden hulls.I have never heard of a back yard built steel boat ever having a weld break, in my over 40 years of cruising, and I have encountered a lot of them, and I have seen some pretty horrendous welding on some of them. Check out some of the uphand welding on BC Ferries,  done by people who have almost every welding qualification ever invented. A chicken can shit straighter in a gale!However, I have often seen such  nitpicking  cause what should be a one year project turned into a very expensive ten year or more project, with no real improvement in the function of the final product..Haidan has a good way of putting it;"You are not building a nuclear submarine!"---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So, I have been working on my boat for awhile and have many, many people stop by and offer their two cents. All have been kind. A lot of people ask me if I trust my welds, which I always say yes, and I still say yes, but it got me thinking. I've only been welding now for almost a year, self taught from a book, and by talking to friends in the industry. I've even had the local welding instructor come by to give me the thumbs up. The welding instructor actually seems to be the least concerned about my welds. It all got me thinking... What is acceptable, in our little origami boat building community? Has any one had welds fail once the boat is complete, and in the water? I started reading more stuff online, and generally the literature I come across gives me the impression that one little flaw is all it takes, and the entire works will come undone. Yet, I look at some hand built boats around here, and I see some pretty shoddy weld beads. I see fish tugs almost fifty years old that have frozen in almost every winter of their lifetime, standing strong, with what is clearly decades of none-certified, borderline careless, welding repairs all over the craft. A little bit of undercut here, a little to much of a deposit there, too much heat, too little, at what point is anyone becoming overly concerned? I always go over the weld afterwards, grinding out slag pockets and replacing material, and fill in undercut with a 3/32" rod. I've been scoring the outside of the weld before laying my outside beads. Thoughts?-Marlin | 32543|32538|2015-05-25 18:11:36|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Go to library and find ANSI/AWS D3.5-93 (or different year) "Guide for Steel Hull Welding". Lot of useful information!For example:- "Do not weld across an unwelded butt or seam"- Plate's reinforcement and welding- Seam's welding sequence- Avoiding distortion- "use elliptical rather than radial cuts on hatch corners"- etc.| 32544|32538|2015-05-26 00:55:35|Hannu Venermo|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Much larger, old, fishing boats, well over 100.000 of them, work the seas every day, in much worse weather. I have never heard welding being a common issue on them. And, after all, collectively, over more than 10, perhaps 100 million collective days actually working in heavy weather, if welding were a common concern, it would be known. Rust, machinery, poor maintenance, poor seamanship - these are a concern. You can make it as pretty as you want - but at core, these little boats are very strong, and even relatively poor welds will hold them. The shape and material give the basic strength - not good welding practises. Its not a highly pressurised flourine container made with inconel, after all. Grin. Just for grins, Google inconel for cost of material. About 30$ / kg, or 40 times cost of mild steel. On 25/05/2015 20:48, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I always go over the weld afterwards, grinding out slag pockets and > replacing material, and fill in undercut with a 3/32" rod. I've been > scoring the outside of the weld before laying my outside beads. > > Thoughts? > > -Marlin -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32545|32538|2015-05-26 04:38:07|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually |Am 25.05.2015 um 21:35 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:    Check out some of the uphand welding on BC Ferries,  done by people who have almost every welding qualification ever invented. A chicken can shit straighter in a gale!Special thanx for this line.Haidan has a good way of putting it;"You are not building a nuclear submarine!"... uhm, by the way, did You ever encounter the work those itsy bitsy nuclear submarine certified shipyards deliver bytimes?Lets take HDW (Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft) for example, a place fairly known to the navy-world I know from inside: well, "... a chicken could shit straighter in a gale ..." was it recently put elswhere ....| 32546|32538|2015-05-26 07:21:53|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Although we are talking about a much different scale of stresses aren't there some documented cases of Liberty ships falling apart.The ones which survived the war gave good service for many years though.If it's any consolation though the worst example of 'hungry horse' welding I ever saw was on a Royal Navy fleet auxiliary in Portsmouth harbourcheersAndy Airey| 32547|32538|2015-05-26 09:33:58|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|It was poor design which made early Liberty ships to fail - not welding problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Although we are talking about a much different scale of stresses aren't there some documented cases of Liberty ships falling apart.| 32548|32538|2015-05-26 10:49:31|Hannu Venermo|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Plus, I believe they were knocking them out about 1 / month, with partly untrained crews with no experience. The liberty ships only needed to last one, one-way trip .. its what they were designed to do. By all accounts,they did much more than that, in general. On 26/05/2015 15:33, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > It was poor design which made early Liberty ships to fail - not > welding problems. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32549|32549|2015-05-26 15:40:02|aguysailing|Living Aboard|Seems to be a lot of inconsistent info about living aboard in BC at Federal Harbour docks which are mostly administered by some sort of local authority now.  I am docked in Port Alberni Fishermans Wharf because there is no anchorage here.  Suddenly I am being told (along with others) that they do not want you staying overnight on your boat unless you are docked for a few days and then on your way again.  This has long been a full time liveaboard dock with a mixed bag of just about everyone from every walk of life here and a really nice dockside friendlyness.   No problem for me to go elsewhere but just the same this sudden power flex by bureaucracy seems just not quite right.  Just wondering if any boater out there on this forum has taken these guys on elsewhere....  ThanksGary| 32550|32549|2015-05-26 16:19:07|venturehullscanadaincorporated|Re: Living Aboard|Regulations in Canadian Navigational Waters concern many avenues , not the least of which are fuel spills , or the overboard dumping of raw sewage into recreational waterways at random. Marinas are supposed to offer things which make a live aboard a comfort , things like accessible 115 volt household current , fresh water , and a safe environment where all can enjoy . The present state is far from that . Marinas are packed , and services are restricted for use by those with yacht club memberships . Pump outs for instance , like any campsite ( a KOA , for instance ) ideally , there should be an accessible sewage pump out which the marina takes care of , so that recreational sailors and power boaters could , as a boating community , all benefit , and have their holding tanks flushed at a reasonable cost , for cruising . Today , you are not allowed to pump overboard , yet there are no affordable alternatives , and no marina offers aKOA type 'pay as you go' ( pun intended ) sewage holding service unless you are a member . Tourism , marine tourism , suffers , to the point that no facilities are accessible , and the area becomes either contaminated anyway , by constant local traffic , or avoided , because of hiked fees .| 32551|32538|2015-05-26 17:40:32|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|What Matt is referring to is the law of mechanical similitude. No way even the biggest freighter is going to punch a hole in a floating ping pong ball. Our  boats behave more like the ping pong ball than much larger vessels.Not enough inertia to hurt them.| 32552|32538|2015-05-26 17:47:09|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Some  of that is irrelevant in the size of boats we are building here.Zero chance  of  radial cuts having any effect on hatch corners in the size of boat we are considering here. I used a mix of paint and talc as a filler on my interior. If there was any movement in the hull, any flexing it would crack the filler instantly. That is a sure fire indicator of movement, and flexing. No cracks in 31 years and  mostly full time cruising including  many Pacific crossings.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Go to library and find ANSI/AWS D3.5-93 (or different year) "Guide for Steel Hull Welding". Lot of useful information!For example:- "Do not weld across an unwelded butt or seam"- Plate's reinforcement and welding- Seam's welding sequence- Avoiding distortion- "use elliptical rather than radial cuts on hatch corners"- etc.| 32553|32538|2015-05-26 17:54:23|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|I worked with people who had worked on the Liberty Ships. Welding was in its infancy then. Welds were often down hand welding with bare rods,zero flux,etc. The worst amateur couldn't do as bad with today's rods.Navies insist on fully welding all stringers and frames, to the hull plate, which adds nothing to the strength of the vessels, but a lot of cash  to military cost plus contractors, with govt friends and connections.That is a sure fire recipe for massive distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Although we are talking about a much different scale of stresses aren't there some documented cases of Liberty ships falling apart.The ones which survived the war gave good service for many years though.If it's any consolation though the worst example of 'hungry horse' welding I ever saw was on a Royal Navy fleet auxiliary in Portsmouth harbourcheersAndy Airey| 32554|32549|2015-05-26 18:00:52|brentswain38|Re: Living Aboard| It has been a problem with all govt docks for decades. A friend went to meetings in which they were trying to ban live aboards. He did his research and found that everyone complaining was a real estate salesman.Another friend said tent cities for the homeless were full of people who used to  live aboard , but were pushed into homlessness by such bullshit.I think it criminally violates the constitutional right to life liberty and security of the person.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Seems to be a lot of inconsistent info about living aboard in BC at Federal Harbour docks which are mostly administered by some sort of local authority now.  I am docked in Port Alberni Fishermans Wharf because there is no anchorage here.  Suddenly I am being told (along with others) that they do not want you staying overnight on your boat unless you are docked for a few days and then on your way again.  This has long been a full time liveaboard dock with a mixed bag of just about everyone from every walk of life here and a really nice dockside friendlyness.   No problem for me to go elsewhere but just the same this sudden power flex by bureaucracy seems just not quite right.  Just wondering if any boater out there on this forum has taken these guys on elsewhere....  ThanksGary| 32555|32538|2015-05-26 18:17:22|Matt Malone|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| I was taught in engineering school that the Liberty ships suffered from their steel having a ductile-brittle transition temperature that was above the temperature of the water in the North Atlantic.  Therefore, in the yard the steel was ductile, once launched it was brittle.   Further, there were locked-in stresses in the ships that meant that the steel in one area was stressing the steel in another.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ductility#Ductile.E2.80.93brittle_transition_temperaturehttp://www.sozogaku.com/fkd/en/cfen/CB1011020.htmlhttp://www.weldreality.com/ship%20titanic%20cold%20water.htmThe Titanic and the Liberty ships really pressed home to naval architects that steel can do unusual things.   Some of their worries about origami boats come from examples like these.   A metallurgist could tell you what the ductile-brittle temperature is for a particular grade of steel.   This is one concern I have buying steel for my projects at the scrap yard.  I am never certain what grade it is.   My materials prof had no trouble at all sourcing a steel in the 1980s that had a DBTT above freezing and demonstrating how it snapped in the lab when it was cool.   I have to imagine, some of the steel in the scrap yard must be unsuitable for cold use.   Naturally origami builders are sourcing their hull and deck materials new and therefore know the grade.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:54:23 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable   I worked with people who had worked on the Liberty Ships. Welding was in its infancy then. Welds were often down hand welding with bare rods,zero flux,etc. The worst amateur couldn't do as bad with today's rods.Navies insist on fully welding all stringers and frames, to the hull plate, which adds nothing to the strength of the vessels, but a lot of cash  to military cost plus contractors, with govt friends and connections.That is a sure fire recipe for massive distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Although we are talking about a much different scale of stresses aren't there some documented cases of Liberty ships falling apart.The ones which survived the war gave good service for many years though.If it's any consolation though the worst example of 'hungry horse' welding I ever saw was on a Royal Navy fleet auxiliary in Portsmouth harbourcheersAndy Airey | 32556|32538|2015-05-27 06:19:14|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|There is a nice example of a Humber Keel (a type of square rigged sailing barge which dates back to the Viking trading ships) at Goole which was built just after the war.The owner,one of the Humber lighterage firms operating between the Humber ports and inland into Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,specified rivetting AND welding.This particular example would have been built as a motorship - most, if not all,of the existing Keels had been motorised by this time,although several have been re-rigged in retirement.It's not worth taking chances with your steel specs for the hull steel.We used to machine a lot of steel plate for a firm which reconditioned mining equipment and the machining qualities varied enormously depending on where they had bought their steel - Brazilian plate machined up beautifully,French plate was as soft as s*&t - and some gets into the second hand and reuseable market because it is substandard,with slag inclusions or laminations.This should be less of a problem with 3mm plate - there isn't the thickness to hide defects - although it cropped up occasionally on the thicker plate we were using.It's also amazing just how much thick plate ( say 4"  thick)will move when you machine away the skin and release the stressescheersAndy Airey| 32557|32538|2015-05-27 08:17:14|garyhlucas|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| I bought a strip of hot rolled steel from a supplier some years ago to reinforce the outriggers on a crane truck.  The supplier said it was “a little hard”.  I only needed to flame cut it and weld so I didn’t think much about it.  After welding I saw a tiny crack at one end, so I tapped it with a hammer.  The crack shot 6 feet up the beam and a piece actually fell out of it where the hammer hit!  On the positive side the supplier replaced all the steel, and we had no more problems.   Gary H. LucasHave you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 6:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable     There is a nice example of a Humber Keel (a type of square rigged sailing barge which dates back to the Viking trading ships) at Goole which was built just after the war.The owner,one of the Humber lighterage firms operating between the Humber ports and inland into Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,specified rivetting AND welding.This particular example would have been built as a motorship - most, if not all,of the existing Keels had been motorised by this time,although several have been re-rigged in retirement. It's not worth taking chances with your steel specs for the hull steel.We used to machine a lot of steel plate for a firm which reconditioned mining equipment and the machining qualities varied enormously depending on where they had bought their steel - Brazilian plate machined up beautifully,French plate was as soft as s*&t - and some gets into the second hand and reuseable market because it is substandard,with slag inclusions or laminations.This should be less of a problem with 3mm plate - there isn't the thickness to hide defects - although it cropped up occasionally on the thicker plate we were using.It's also amazing just how much thick plate ( say 4"  thick)will move when you machine away the skin and release the stresses cheers Andy Airey| 32558|32538|2015-05-27 10:20:11|Matt Malone|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| Further to buying steel at a scrap yard.   I have bought some schedule 40 pipe and used it in the cradle for my boat.   My guess was that schedule 40 pipe, having to meet some standards to be pipe and hold pressure would have less variance.   I am guessing the same thing about the stainless steel pipe that Brent and others favour.   But all of that is just a guess.   I saw a large load of 20 foot lengths of straight, unused, undamaged schedule 40 being delivered to the scrap yard, all of it stacked neatly, some of it still in the steel-strapped bundles.  I had to ask myself, why was it being scrapped?   My guess would be, competition from the lowest cost supplier of steel is really squeezing the market, and, this is never good for quality.   Anyone live near a city with a foundry and steel mill that is closed?  Me too.   If I were building an origami hull, I would consider having a metallurgist do an inspection and a couple of field tests on my steel plate.   Other building styles that build a hull up from different types of steel would have more types of steel to inspect.   That is another advantage of origami, if one were inclined to get the hull material tested.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 26 May 2015 18:17:19 -0400Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable   I was taught in engineering school that the Liberty ships suffered from their steel having a ductile-brittle transition temperature that was above the temperature of the water in the North Atlantic.  Therefore, in the yard the steel was ductile, once launched it was brittle.   Further, there were locked-in stresses in the ships that meant that the steel in one area was stressing the steel in another.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ductility#Ductile.E2.80.93brittle_transition_temperaturehttp://www.sozogaku.com/fkd/en/cfen/CB1011020.htmlhttp://www.weldreality.com/ship%20titanic%20cold%20water.htmThe Titanic and the Liberty ships really pressed home to naval architects that steel can do unusual things.   Some of their worries about origami boats come from examples like these.   A metallurgist could tell you what the ductile-brittle temperature is for a particular grade of steel.   This is one concern I have buying steel for my projects at the scrap yard.  I am never certain what grade it is.   My materials prof had no trouble at all sourcing a steel in the 1980s that had a DBTT above freezing and demonstrating how it snapped in the lab when it was cool.   I have to imagine, some of the steel in the scrap yard must be unsuitable for cold use.   Naturally origami builders are sourcing their hull and deck materials new and therefore know the grade.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:54:23 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable   I worked with people who had worked on the Liberty Ships. Welding was in its infancy then. Welds were often down hand welding with bare rods,zero flux,etc. The worst amateur couldn't do as bad with today's rods.Navies insist on fully welding all stringers and frames, to the hull plate, which adds nothing to the strength of the vessels, but a lot of cash  to military cost plus contractors, with govt friends and connections.That is a sure fire recipe for massive distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Although we are talking about a much different scale of stresses aren't there some documented cases of Liberty ships falling apart.The ones which survived the war gave good service for many years though.If it's any consolation though the worst example of 'hungry horse' welding I ever saw was on a Royal Navy fleet auxiliary in Portsmouth harbourcheersAndy Airey | 32559|32538|2015-05-27 11:10:57|Matt Malone|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| Further, about testing and quality control.  I have read anecdotes of how fibreglass yacht outfits on the verge of bankruptcy in the 70's and 80's had unskilled labourers spraying and laying the hulls up, anything to get them out the door cheap and fast.  With the price of resin going up fast (oil crisis of the early 1970s) there was a lot of economic pressure to get it done and out the door with as little material cost as possible.   Yes, a lot of those boats sailed for a while, but, that era left a real stain on the reputation of fibreglass.   Even if one buys a boat originally made by a financially solvent builder who valued not making crap hulls, and never used a chopper spray gun, what was the quality control?  What kept the material defects out?   Constant human vigilance as the laminate was made.  There is nothing more fallible.  Once it was laminated, there was no economical way to go back and make sure it was right, no way to detect "good enough for Friday" work when the constant vigilance turned their back for a moment.   Did they ever scrap a hull that failed quality control?   What did they do with hulls that did not meet their standards?   Perhaps they laid in more fibreglass and made a slightly heavier boat that met their standards.  There are worse things, like just installing the interior panelling and sticking a price tag on it.   Fibreglass can be quite good. The story about hammering a steel beam and the crack running and a piece falling out... that simply cannot happen with fibreglass with anything like a sensible cloth layup, fresh resin, proper wet working times, even with unskilled labour.  Problem is, fast, cheap and effit was the common approach in the 70s and 80s.    Good steel, bulk manufactured with automated quality checks, and follow up material certifications, seems more reliable.  Even welded by an amateur, at least the amateur has more certainty in their own outcome.   And good steel is a good, simple and an all-around, in any direction, strong and tough material.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:16:17 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable   I bought a strip of hot rolled steel from a supplier some years ago to reinforce the outriggers on a crane truck.  The supplier said it was “a little hard”.  I only needed to flame cut it and weld so I didn’t think much about it.  After welding I saw a tiny crack at one end, so I tapped it with a hammer.  The crack shot 6 feet up the beam and a piece actually fell out of it where the hammer hit!  On the positive side the supplier replaced all the steel, and we had no more problems.   Gary H. LucasHave you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 6:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable     There is a nice example of a Humber Keel (a type of square rigged sailing barge which dates back to the Viking trading ships) at Goole which was built just after the war.The owner,one of the Humber lighterage firms operating between the Humber ports and inland into Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,specified rivetting AND welding.This particular example would have been built as a motorship - most, if not all,of the existing Keels had been motorised by this time,although several have been re-rigged in retirement. It's not worth taking chances with your steel specs for the hull steel.We used to machine a lot of steel plate for a firm which reconditioned mining equipment and the machining qualities varied enormously depending on where they had bought their steel - Brazilian plate machined up beautifully,French plate was as soft as s*&t - and some gets into the second hand and reuseable market because it is substandard,with slag inclusions or laminations.This should be less of a problem with 3mm plate - there isn't the thickness to hide defects - although it cropped up occasionally on the thicker plate we were using.It's also amazing just how much thick plate ( say 4"  thick)will move when you machine away the skin and release the stresses cheers Andy Airey | 32560|32538|2015-05-27 11:27:34|Hannu Venermo|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|I doubt the stories about the "cold steel". Afaik mild steel does not, ever, crack at any temp. Boats are built out of, essentially, mild steel.. vs a high alloy of some type. In scandinavia, and russia, canada, etc cold is a common occurrence, and most all work boats have been steel for nearly 100 years. There is no known phenomena of "bad steel" related to boats breaking up due to cold weather. Weldability, rust, etc. can certainly be issues with steel, and bad steel does exist, but its an overwhelming majority. There are very few steel manufacturers in europe, 4 I believe, and I highly doubt anyone, anywhere, has "bad steel" for boatbuilding. No-one stocks steel for decades (its highly corrosie, ie rusts, after all). Thus, any new steel will come from a reputable provider. All above applies to basic steels. Higher value alloys are another matter. Mild steel is about 0.80€ / kg, F1 tool steel about 2.20€, in spain, atm. On 27/05/2015 17:10, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Good steel, bulk manufactured with automated quality checks, and > follow up material certifications, seems more reliable. Even welded > by an amateur, at least the amateur has more certainty in their own > outcome. And good steel is a good, simple and an all-around, in any > direction, strong and tough material. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32561|32538|2015-05-27 14:00:00|Matt Malone|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| Just to be clear, I have never seen "bad steel" with my own eyes.  I have seen steel selected intentionally to be inappropriate for cold temperatures, to make the point that it is possible to select inappropriately.   I have welded tons of scrapyard steel, never had anything crack in cold weather or with the blow of a hammer.   This is a combination of luck and not welding as much steel as most others I think.   I imagine there are a lot of people who would say, I have never seen bad steel, therefore it does not happen.  If something were very important, I would consider steps like buying new, documented material, like all manufacturers do, and having it independently checked, like some manufacturers do.   Manufacturers tend to do this, when a piece is very important.  I work with an industrial x-ray company sometimes.  They have seen a lot of bad steel, bad forgings, and bad welds.  I see the x-rays all over their walls.  I talk to them about these projects while they are processing my samples.  Recently I purchased 3 steel I-beams from the scrap yard that had plates already welded on the ends.  Each beam carries a little certificate plate of inspection.   If there is no such thing as bad steel, industrial x-ray companies would not exist and there would be no inspection process for steel parts.   Problems are rare but real.    Problems are rare but there are procedures and measures in the market to assure a project.   Builders should be aware of the possible problems, and the options for avoiding them.   The name of the thread is "Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable".  A realistic review of possible, even if rare, problems is appropriate.          Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 17:27:16 +0200> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable> > I doubt the stories about the "cold steel".> Afaik mild steel does not, ever, crack at any temp.> Boats are built out of, essentially, mild steel..> vs a high alloy of some type.> > In scandinavia, and russia, canada, etc cold is a common occurrence, and > most all work boats have been steel for nearly 100 years.> There is no known phenomena of "bad steel" related to boats breaking up > due to cold weather.> > Weldability, rust, etc. can certainly be issues with steel, and bad > steel does exist, but its an overwhelming majority.> There are very few steel manufacturers in europe, 4 I believe, and I > highly doubt anyone, anywhere, has "bad steel" for boatbuilding.> No-one stocks steel for decades (its highly corrosie, ie rusts, after all).> Thus, any new steel will come from a reputable provider.> > All above applies to basic steels.> Higher value alloys are another matter.> > Mild steel is about 0.80€ / kg, F1 tool steel about 2.20€, in spain, atm.> > > On 27/05/2015 17:10, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] > wrote:> > Good steel, bulk manufactured with automated quality checks, and > > follow up material certifications, seems more reliable. Even welded > > by an amateur, at least the amateur has more certainty in their own > > outcome. And good steel is a good, simple and an all-around, in any > > direction, strong and tough material.> >> > Matt > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs)> > > > ------------------------------------> > ------------------------------------> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> ------------------------------------> > Yahoo Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com > origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:> https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/> | 32562|32538|2015-05-27 15:34:30|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Sometimes the shaft for the leading edges of the keels was different, and didn't take to welding all that well. So we tested different welding rods, hammering the shit out of test strips welded on, til we found the right combination, which we could pound hell out of without it breaking. I have seen laminated plate from Asia. When you use the cutting torch near the edges it spits back at you, and when you bend it in the brake, it becomes obvious.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1929042681 #ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778 .ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1929042681 #ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778 .ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Further to buying steel at a scrap yard.   I have bought some schedule 40 pipe and used it in the cradle for my boat.   My guess was that schedule 40 pipe, having to meet some standards to be pipe and hold pressure would have less variance.   I am guessing the same thing about the stainless steel pipe that Brent and others favour.   But all of that is just a guess.   I saw a large load of 20 foot lengths of straight, unused, undamaged schedule 40 being delivered to the scrap yard, all of it stacked neatly, some of it still in the steel-strapped bundles.  I had to ask myself, why was it being scrapped?   My guess would be, competition from the lowest cost supplier of steel is really squeezing the market, and, this is never good for quality.   Anyone live near a city with a foundry and steel mill that is closed?  Me too.   If I were building an origami hull, I would consider having a metallurgist do an inspection and a couple of field tests on my steel plate.   Other building styles that build a hull up from different types of steel would have more types of steel to inspect.   That is another advantage of origami, if one were inclined to get the hull material tested.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 26 May 2015 18:17:19 -0400Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable I was taught in engineering school that the Liberty ships suffered from their steel having a ductile-brittle transition temperature that was above the temperature of the water in the North Atlantic.  Therefore, in the yard the steel was ductile, once launched it was brittle.   Further, there were locked-in stresses in the ships that meant that the steel in one area was stressing the steel in another.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ductility#Ductile.E2.80.93brittle_transition_temperaturehttp://www.sozogaku.com/fkd/en/cfen/CB1011020.htmlhttp://www.weldreality.com/ship%20titanic%20cold%20water.htmThe Titanic and the Liberty ships really pressed home to naval architects that steel can do unusual things.   Some of their worries about origami boats come from examples like these.   A metallurgist could tell you what the ductile-brittle temperature is for a particular grade of steel.   This is one concern I have buying steel for my projects at the scrap yard.  I am never certain what grade it is.   My materials prof had no trouble at all sourcing a steel in the 1980s that had a DBTT above freezing and demonstrating how it snapped in the lab when it was cool.   I have to imagine, some of the steel in the scrap yard must be unsuitable for cold use.   Naturally origami builders are sourcing their hull and deck materials new and therefore know the grade.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:54:23 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable  I worked with people who had worked on the Liberty Ships. Welding was in its infancy then. Welds were often down hand welding with bare rods,zero flux,etc. The worst amateur couldn't do as bad with today's rods.Navies insist on fully welding all stringers and frames, to the hull plate, which adds nothing to the strength of the vessels, but a lot of cash  to military cost plus contractors, with govt friends and connections.That is a sure fire recipe for massive distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Although we are talking about a much different scale of stresses aren't there some documented cases of Liberty ships falling apart.The ones which survived the war gave good service for many years though.If it's any consolation though the worst example of 'hungry horse' welding I ever saw was on a Royal Navy fleet auxiliary in Portsmouth harbourcheersAndy Airey#ygrps-yiv-1929042681 #ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778 .ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid 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.ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1929042681ygrps-yiv-1264559778ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32563|32538|2015-05-27 15:37:51|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Most of our scrapyard stainless around here is from the pulp mills,  Sandvik from Sweden, some of the best in the world. It has to be to survive the super caustic chemicals in the pulp industry. One screwup there can cost $millions. They don't take such chances.| 32564|32538|2015-05-27 15:43:53|brentswain38|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Whacking test welds with a hammer will give you  all the relevant info you need on what you are using. You wil find out  quickly enough  in the building process if there is a problem with your steel.| 32565|32538|2015-05-27 16:32:41|opuspaul|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|I know of one 60 foot aluminum boat that was built of faulty metal.   The sheets were rejected from the foundry and scrapped due to problems with the alloy.   The owner builder knew the plate was rejected but decided to build the boat anyway because the metal was a  "deal".   15 years later, the hull was corroded to bits and covered in small pin holes.  The boat was on it's second or third owner by then and spending months in the boatyard chasing down spongy plates and covering up problems with paint.  The boat was really a total write-off but I was told it later went to the Marshall Islands and back before finally being sold to somebody else.  I wonder if the new owner was ever told about the problems in the plate.  It might have gone so cheap that he didn't care.  Personally, I would not have wanted to be in a bad storm in the boat.| 32566|32538|2015-05-28 01:43:45|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable|Matt, are you referring to "Impact test Charpy V-notch Temperature"?ABS grade steels have it:ABS A - 0C (32F)ABS B - -10C (14F)ABS D - -40C (-40F)As you see, even ABS A grade may have problems in cold waters. 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#ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580 .ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1747793898 #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580 .ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1747793898 #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580 .ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1747793898 #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580 .ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1747793898ygrps-yiv-898176580ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32567|32538|2015-05-28 09:30:53|Matt Malone|Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable| Yes, it was the Impact test Charpy V-notch Temperature using this sort of apparatus:https://www.hera.org.nz/images/inspectionqualitycontrol/ImpactTesting.jpgHow far the hammer swung after the sample broke indicated how much energy the hammer still had, and by subtraction, how much energy it took to break the samples.   On the brittle samples, the hammer swung all the way up the other side and test piece snapped in two like it was not there.  On the samples over their BDTT the hammer stopped dead at the anvil and the piece bent.  Completely different behaviour.   Like night and day.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 27 May 2015 22:43:44 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Concerns and what is actually acceptable   Matt, are you referring to "Impact test Charpy V-notch Temperature"?ABS grade steels have it:ABS A - 0C (32F)ABS B - -10C (14F)ABS D - -40C (-40F)As you see, even ABS A grade may have problems in cold waters. It is more critical for thick materials (grade A tested only for thickness >1")---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I was taught in engineering school that the Liberty ships suffered from their steel having a ductile-brittle transition temperature that was above the temperature of the water in the North Atlantic.  Therefore, in the yard the steel was ductile, once launched it was brittle. | 32568|1416|2015-05-28 12:31:33|aaron riis|Steel|Has steel taken a price dive along with oil prices?-A| 32569|1416|2015-05-28 17:09:06|brentswain38|Re: Steel|It took a dive before uil prices did.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has steel taken a price dive along with oil prices?-A| 32570|1416|2015-05-28 17:28:48|opuspaul|Re: Steel|It is all about China.   Iron ore and steel are likely to stay low for a long time unless the world economy suddenly starts going on another growth spurt.   I think this is highly unlikely.http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/iron-ore-miners-in-for-a-very-very-tough-time-20150528-ghbhp4.html  | 32571|1416|2015-05-28 17:43:11|J Fisher|Re: Steel|China is interesting with steel. When I toured a scrap yard 5 years ago they said all the new steel mills in China could not process raw ore. They could only process scrap.  So the scrap yard was selling most of the scrap to China. Sent from my iPhone On May 28, 2015, at 3:28 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   It is all about China.   Iron ore and steel are likely to stay low for a long time unless the world economy suddenly starts going on another growth spurt.   I think this is highly unlikely.http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/iron-ore-miners-in-for-a-very-very-tough-time-20150528-ghbhp4.html   | 32572|1416|2015-05-28 17:48:45|Matt Malone|Re: Steel| Heard the same from scrap dealers here.   Some yards are dedicated buy-only and ship 100% of their scrap to China.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 28 May 2015 15:36:50 -0600Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel   China is interesting with steel. When I toured a scrap yard 5 years ago they said all the new steel mills in China could not process raw ore. They could only process scrap.  So the scrap yard was selling most of the scrap to China. Sent from my iPhone On May 28, 2015, at 3:28 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   It is all about China.   Iron ore and steel are likely to stay low for a long time unless the world economy suddenly starts going on another growth spurt.   I think this is highly unlikely.http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/iron-ore-miners-in-for-a-very-very-tough-time-20150528-ghbhp4.html   | 32573|1416|2015-05-28 18:14:58|opuspaul|Re: Steel|A year or two ago the scrap yard in my town (New Plymouth, NZ) wouldn't sell you anything.  It all went to China and they couldn't be bothered with you.  Now they will welcome you in the yard and sell you what you want.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Heard the same from scrap dealers here.   Some yards are dedicated buy-only and ship 100% of their scrap to China.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 28 May 2015 15:36:50 -0600Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel  China is interesting with steel. When I toured a scrap yard 5 years ago they said all the new steel mills in China could not process raw ore. They could only process scrap.  So the scrap yard was selling most of the scrap to China. Sent from my iPhone On May 28, 2015, at 3:28 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:  It is all about China.   Iron ore and steel are likely to stay low for a long time unless the world economy suddenly starts going on another growth spurt.   I think this is highly unlikely.http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/iron-ore-miners-in-for-a-very-very-tough-time-20150528-ghbhp4.html  #ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxhd { 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#ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1836827601 #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1836827601ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32574|1416|2015-05-28 20:58:08|brentswain38|Re: Steel|I'm sure China was not paying them the  $2 a pound for the stainless they were charging us. Lets hope more scrapyards start to feel the pinch, and are forced to apease us riffraff.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A year or two ago the scrap yard in my town (New Plymouth, NZ) wouldn't sell you anything.  It all went to China and they couldn't be bothered with you.  Now they will welcome you in the yard and sell you what you want.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1966850773 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1966850773 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Heard the same from scrap dealers here.   Some yards are dedicated buy-only and ship 100% of their scrap to China.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 28 May 2015 15:36:50 -0600Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel  China is interesting with steel. When I toured a scrap yard 5 years ago they said all the new steel mills in China could not process raw ore. They could only process scrap.  So the scrap yard was selling most of the scrap to China. Sent from my iPhone On May 28, 2015, at 3:28 PM, opusnz@... 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#ygrps-yiv-1966850773 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1966850773 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225 #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753 .ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1966850773ygrps-yiv-1771123225ygrps-yiv-439877753ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32575|1416|2015-05-29 00:22:49|wild_explorer|Re: Steel|I got some extra steel (new) about 2 weeks ago (FB, angles, 2" pipes and rectangular tubes) from big industrial supplier (with grades and certificates):ASTM-A-36 -> 50c/LbA569/A1011/A992  -> 60-65c/LbPipe(A-53)/Tube(A513) -> ~68c/LbSmaller supplier wanted more than twice of that.| 32576|1416|2015-05-29 06:15:15|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel| A fast google shows steel prices have gone down from 720 to 620 $/ton. About 20% less, trending downwards. Will likely drop to 500$ on softness in (china) world economy demand, and structural changes in china. China uses == 60% of world ore. On 28/05/2015 18:28, aaron riis aaronriis@... [origamiboats] wrote: Has steel taken a price dive along with oil prices? -A -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32577|32502|2015-05-30 13:00:47|venturehullscanadaincorporated|Re: Primer Specs|Epoxy Primer like the Sherwin Williams product listed is the toughest stuff going.A Word of Caution when using it , though . It's designed to be applied with pressure spay equipment , compressed air mixed with paint and spray coated . This epoxy primer , like all epoxy primers ,begins to polymerize as soon as it is mixed , and this is a one way chemical reaction , there is no taking apartthe matrix after it has cured . That's what makes it so tough , and it is resistant to not only seawater , which prevents corrosion , but to most chemicals as well. The drawback is , unless you , as a do it yourselfer , mix and apply like normal paint , which can get expensive , because this stuff is designed to be only a few mils thick when applied as a fast cure spray , you rune the risk of inhaling it while applying , and you mustn't inhaleepoxy primer either before it has et or during cure , because it will adhere to all of your lung tissue , and effectively glue shut your oxygen supply , and kill you.Look at the WHMS sheet which is sold with the product , there you will find the complete list of ingredients .Now look carefully , it specifically says that this product is in compliance with safety rules " If it is applied according to Product Safety sheet " , now the Product Tech sheet will specify that it is to be sprayed on with an Industrial Compressed Air Paint Sprayer , and it also recommends that PPE ( Personal Protective Equipment ) be used . This means , according to Industry Standards , you must breath a dedicated clean supply of compressed air while applying this paint , that means a separate air compressor which provides clean breathable air to not only your mouth and nose , but your entire face . It also means you must wear a TYVEK impermeable Paint Suit while applying it .| 32578|32578|2015-06-02 16:53:17|aguysailing|Sirius|Pretty much resigned to the fact that to get CBC in remote coastal BC I will need satellite radio.  Anyone using Sirius out there?  How do you like it etc...?... thanksGary| 32579|32578|2015-06-02 17:10:10|Jfisher|Re: Sirius|I have it in my cars and it works.   Same stations where ever you go. Cost gets better the more radios you have, for just one its not cheap, but could be a good solution for radio reception in an area with little else.  Music is "commercial " free, but all the other stations are not. IMHO The news stations are more commercials than programming.   Sent from my iPad On Jun 2, 2015, at 2:53 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Pretty much resigned to the fact that to get CBC in remote coastal BC I will need satellite radio.  Anyone using Sirius out there?  How do you like it etc...?... thanksGary | 32580|32578|2015-06-03 10:05:28|Mark Hamill|Re: Sirius| I haven't been following this thread but did you try CBC shortwave out of Vancouver?? Maybew it doesn't exist anymore. Sorry if this has already been covered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU_%28AM%29  "Shortwave relay[edit] By 1946, CBR operated a shortwave relay for remote areas of British Columbia using the call sign CBRXand operating on a frequency of 6160 kHz (in the 49m band). The call sign changed to CBUX in 1952 when the AM station became CBU. In 1965, the call sign changed to CKZU, recognizing that the ITU prefix CBwas not assigned to Canada, but to Chile. The transmitter operates at 1000 W and is located adjacent to CBU's AM transmitter."| 32581|32581|2015-06-04 01:24:59|wild_explorer|How to recognize crack in a plate?|I was welding 1/4" doubler gusset to the hull. Because of the curve there, I made 6"x6" gusset from 3 1/4"x2"x6" strips. It was still some play between the strips and the hull. After welding I wanted to see if welds were visible on the outside. That where I noticed a line on a primer which looks like a crack (may be it just a stain). I scraped primer off from part of the line, but I cannot see much.Is there simple way to check if this is a crack or not? Something simple (without magnaflux, etc.)| 32582|32581|2015-06-04 07:56:02|garyhlucas|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?| I would tap it with a hammer and compare the sound with other areas.  I think the sound will be very different if it is a crack.   Gary H. LucasHave you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 1:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] How to recognize crack in a plate?     I was welding 1/4" doubler gusset to the hull. Because of the curve there, I made 6"x6" gusset from 3 1/4"x2"x6" strips. It was still some play between the strips and the hull. After welding I wanted to see if welds were visible on the outside. That where I noticed a line on a primer which looks like a crack (may be it just a stain). I scraped primer off from part of the line, but I cannot see much.Is there simple way to check if this is a crack or not? Something simple (without magnaflux, etc.) | 32583|32581|2015-06-04 08:33:36|Matt Malone|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?| Sound can be good.  If this is on a level piece, putting a little sand on the area and tapping to one side of the crack with a small hard hammer to give high frequencies might give you an added indication.   Compare to other areas.  Magneflux or dye penetrant are industry standard ways. Matt "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I would tap it with a hammer and compare the sound with other areas.  I think the sound will be very different if it is a crack.   Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 1:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] How to recognize crack in a plate?     I was welding 1/4" doubler gusset to the hull. Because of the curve there, I made 6"x6" gusset from 3 1/4"x2"x6" strips. It was still some play between the strips and the hull. After welding I wanted to see if welds were visible on the outside. That where I noticed a line on a primer which looks like a crack (may be it just a stain). I scraped primer off from part of the line, but I cannot see much. Is there simple way to check if this is a crack or not? Something simple (without magnaflux, etc.) | 32584|32584|2015-06-04 14:28:14|smallboatvoyaguer|Sheer legs| When people have made sheer legs for their single keeled boat, have they just made two and placed them forward on the chine? What is the placement and how many? I'm betting these would want to be made of 316 stainless. Thanks, Mar| 32585|32585|2015-06-04 16:05:57|smallboatvoyaguer|31 footer engine size| So, I am trying to get an idea of what size engine to get.  I'd like to have a lot of power. As much power as possible. I plan to go in ice, and Lake Superior absolutely demands a good engine when we least expect it. I'm happy to pay for a good, strong, engine. Ideas? I'm assuming 50 hp is too much, but I did have two different ones offered up to me. I realize there is a certain point of diminishing returns, with idle speeds and carbon build up and such. The skeg cooler opens up more options, am I right?I was told a Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 would be a good one.Honestly, I don't know much about engines, and that's why I am asking. Thanks, Marlin| 32586|32585|2015-06-04 16:31:06|Darren Bos|Re: 31 footer engine size| I think you would have to substantially increase the size of the prop aperture on a 31 to absorb those kinds of power.  Then to avoid huge drag under sail you would need to have a folding prop.  When cruising your motor would run under so little load and rpm that you will likely end up with carbon buildup and shorter lifespan of the engine.  You would also be in an inefficient part of the fuel curve, so for the same speed your fuel consumption is likely to be higher.  Which is to say, way to much power comes with more trade-offs than just expense weight and increased fuel consumption.  I've just been working through repowering my 40' 29000lb sailboat.  My thinking is that 36 to 43hp is likely to be about right.  I'll let others say what size has worked well in their 31's.  Darren On 15-06-04 01:05 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:    So, I am trying to get an idea of what size engine to get.   I'd like to have a lot of power. As much power as possible. I plan to go in ice, and Lake Superior absolutely demands a good engine when we least expect it. I'm happy to pay for a good, strong, engine.  Ideas?  I'm assuming 50 hp is too much, but I did have two different ones offered up to me. I realize there is a certain point of diminishing returns, with idle speeds and carbon build up and such.  The skeg cooler opens up more options, am I right? I was told a Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 would be a good one. Honestly, I don't know much about engines, and that's why I am asking.  Thanks,  Marlin | 32587|32585|2015-06-04 16:51:05|opuspaul|Re: 31 footer engine size|Good points.    I have a  35 hp Isuzu and have always thought it was well matched for my 36 footer.   It would be oodles for a 31.    It develops it full hp at about 3000 rpm.   You should really look at engine displacement and the torque/hp curve when comparing engines.  You end up with a more realistic comparison that way.   A lot of manufacturers (like Yanmar) quote the hp for a very high rpm which you are unlikely to ever use in practice.   If you put in a 40 or 50 hp engine, it will take up a lot of room.   I think if you are in ice, there is no way you can really push through it unless it is quite thin or you take a run at it.  If you are going slow through the water or through ice, you need a large diameter, fine pitched prop to get the hp out of the engine or you just stall the prop and go nowhere.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I think you would have to substantially increase the size of the prop aperture on a 31 to absorb those kinds of power.  Then to avoid huge drag under sail you would need to have a folding prop.  When cruising your motor would run under so little load and rpm that you will likely end up with carbon buildup and shorter lifespan of the engine.  You would also be in an inefficient part of the fuel curve, so for the same speed your fuel consumption is likely to be higher.  Which is to say, way to much power comes with more trade-offs than just expense weight and increased fuel consumption.  I've just been working through repowering my 40' 29000lb sailboat.  My thinking is that 36 to 43hp is likely to be about right.  I'll let others say what size has worked well in their 31's.  Darren On 15-06-04 01:05 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:   So, I am trying to get an idea of what size engine to get.   I'd like to have a lot of power. As much power as possible. I plan to go in ice, and Lake Superior absolutely demands a good engine when we least expect it. I'm happy to pay for a good, strong, engine.  Ideas?  I'm assuming 50 hp is too much, but I did have two different ones offered up to me. I realize there is a certain point of diminishing returns, with idle speeds and carbon build up and such.  The skeg cooler opens up more options, am I right? I was told a Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 would be a good one. Honestly, I don't know much about engines, and that's why I am asking.  Thanks,  Marlin | 32588|32588|2015-06-04 17:47:39|brentswain38|Spammers are back|Had several porno messages waiting for aproval yesterday and 13 today. Sure glad I get to delete them before they show up here. Man, what a bunch of losers!| 32589|32585|2015-06-04 18:04:11|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer engine size|I went from a ten HP  to 22hp on my 31, and increased my speed by a knot, while drastically increasing the weight of the engine. If I were going for another engine it would probably be about ten hp, but ice is thin here.I once rammed my way thru a quarter mile of five inch ice. Ramming it at 4.4 knots, I broke thru about four feet of it per run. The bow climbed on top and broke down thru. At the end of the first day ,I made the mistake of stopping for the night at the front of the lead, giving me no chance of getting momentum before hitting it again in the morning, as the lead had frozen some behind me. After that I spent the night at the back of the lead ,letting me get some momentum thru the thin stuff , before hitting the five inch stuff.Ice sure cleans your hull down to the keels . I look for some thin stuff to motor thru in winter ,to clean the hull. Doesn't clean the keels or skeg tho, but that is far less work than having to clean the entire hull. Surprisingly, it doesn't hurt the paint much.A 4-108 sticks a long way into the wheelhouse, even on a 36 .It is a very long engine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Good points.    I have a  35 hp Isuzu and have always thought it was well matched for my 36 footer.   It would be oodles for a 31.    It develops it full hp at about 3000 rpm.   You should really look at engine displacement and the torque/hp curve when comparing engines.  You end up with a more realistic comparison that way.   A lot of manufacturers (like Yanmar) quote the hp for a very high rpm which you are unlikely to ever use in practice.   If you put in a 40 or 50 hp engine, it will take up a lot of room.   I think if you are in ice, there is no way you can really push through it unless it is quite thin or you take a run at it.  If you are going slow through the water or through ice, you need a large diameter, fine pitched prop to get the hp out of the engine or you just stall the prop and go nowhere.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I think you would have to substantially increase the size of the prop aperture on a 31 to absorb those kinds of power.  Then to avoid huge drag under sail you would need to have a folding prop.  When cruising your motor would run under so little load and rpm that you will likely end up with carbon buildup and shorter lifespan of the engine.  You would also be in an inefficient part of the fuel curve, so for the same speed your fuel consumption is likely to be higher.  Which is to say, way to much power comes with more trade-offs than just expense weight and increased fuel consumption.  I've just been working through repowering my 40' 29000lb sailboat.  My thinking is that 36 to 43hp is likely to be about right.  I'll let others say what size has worked well in their 31's.  Darren On 15-06-04 01:05 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:   So, I am trying to get an idea of what size engine to get.   I'd like to have a lot of power. As much power as possible. I plan to go in ice, and Lake Superior absolutely demands a good engine when we least expect it. I'm happy to pay for a good, strong, engine.  Ideas?  I'm assuming 50 hp is too much, but I did have two different ones offered up to me. I realize there is a certain point of diminishing returns, with idle speeds and carbon build up and such.  The skeg cooler opens up more options, am I right? I was told a Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 would be a good one. Honestly, I don't know much about engines, and that's why I am asking.  Thanks,  Marlin | 32590|32585|2015-06-04 18:05:48|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer engine size|The skeg on a 31 would hav eno problem cooling a 50 hp engine. Dont know why you would want that huge an engine on a 31 .| 32591|32584|2015-06-04 18:10:19|Gordon Schnell|Re: Sheer legs|I would make them of the same grade of material as the hull. They are both  in the same salt water environment (charge-carrier). Any dissimilarity in materials will result in metal transfer (corrosion).Gord On Jun 4, 2015, at 12:28 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote: When people have made sheer legs for their single keeled boat, have they just made two and placed them forward on the chine? What is the placement and how many? I'm betting these would want to be made of 316 stainless. Thanks, Mar| 32592|32584|2015-06-04 19:21:37|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sheer legs|Don't you think painting the inside of the sheer leg sockets would be very difficult? Also, the inside of the sockets would get a lot of wear and tear under use, eh? But yeah, I hear ya cluckin' big chicken, about the dissimilar metals.| 32593|32585|2015-06-04 19:35:15|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: 31 footer engine size| I don't want a 50 hp, it was just offered up for nothing.  I certainly don't want the engine to take up a ton of space. I wasn't imagining ramming my way through ice as much as pushing through bits and large chunks, because that's what we get here on the lake. Waking up at anchor with a mile of ice on all sides, with no room to get a running start, that's why I want the little extra power. Not talking a huge amount, but just a little extra. One still has to navigate ice, just like any other weather factor, the less ramming the better. I'll let the fish tugs take care of the ice busting, and follow their lead.  | 32594|32581|2015-06-05 01:03:49|wild_explorer|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|Sound does not work. It is compound curve and every spot has different sound. Plus, it already has doubler and pipe over it, I tried to tap another side of the hull and it sound differently in that area as well. That spot is facing down. So, no luck to put something like sand on it. I will put some pictures in files or picture section.Any idea how to make DIY household dye penetrant? Or just scrape primer off with a knife and spray that area with vinegar and let it rust? I guess if there is a crack, it will rust and when you remove surface rust, crack should be visible.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1690120152 #ygrps-yiv-1690120152ygrps-yiv-1245266694 .ygrps-yiv-1690120152ygrps-yiv-1245266694EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}Sound can be good.  If this is on a level piece, putting a little sand on the area and tapping to one side of the crack with a small hard hammer to give high frequencies might give you an added indication.   Compare to other areas.  Magneflux or dye penetrant are industry standard ways. Matt "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I would tap it with a hammer and compare the sound with other areas.  I think the sound will be very different if it is a crack. Gary H. 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Bos|Re: 31 footer engine size| If pushing ice is what you want to do, then really what you want is something capable of very high static thrust (bollard pull).  For this a large diameter low pitch prop is going to be a winner (except when you want to sail later on).  You'd need to increase the size of the prop aperture to do this, and you'd want a fairly high ratio gearbox and preferably low rpm engine.  Really this all has more to do with the prop than the engine.  Dave Gerr has an excellent book called "The Propeller Handbook" that is excellent for figuring out this kind of thing.  If you look at a nomogram like the one in the link below you can see the relationship between HP, Prop Diameter and RPM.  If you try an put too much HP through too small a prop you are just wasting energy without getting useful thrust.  I suspect if you worked all the numbers and looked at the trade-offs you'd come to the conclusion that anything much over 30HP is not worthwhile.  http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-building/85d1016920502-bigger-props-faster-ship-propdia.gif Darren On 15-06-04 04:35 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:    I don't want a 50 hp, it was just offered up for nothing.  I certainly don't want the engine to take up a ton of space.  I wasn't imagining ramming my way through ice as much as pushing through bits and large chunks, because that's what we get here on the lake. Waking up at anchor with a mile of ice on all sides, with no room to get a running start, that's why I want the little extra power. Not talking a huge amount, but just a little extra. One still has to navigate ice, just like any other weather factor, the less ramming the better. I'll let the fish tugs take care of the ice busting, and follow their lead.   | 32596|22|2015-06-05 01:43:20|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats|Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Crack/IMG_7983_cr.jpg Uploaded by : wild_explorer Description : Crack You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Crack/IMG_7983_cr.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, wild_explorer | 32597|32584|2015-06-05 06:11:08|James Pronk|Re: Sheer legs|But you are in fresh water!| 32598|32584|2015-06-05 06:23:34|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sheer legs|I do plan on leaving the lake at some point.| 32599|32585|2015-06-05 06:27:22|Juan José Yaboada|Re: 31 footer engine size|what you need is HP = 4 x displacement (in tons)What you want is HP + 5  De: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" Para: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Enviado: Jueves, 4 de junio, 2015 17:05:57 Asunto: [origamiboats] 31 footer engine size  So, I am trying to get an idea of what size engine to get.  I'd like to have a lot of power. As much power as possible. I plan to go in ice, and Lake Superior absolutely demands a good engine when we least expect it. I'm happy to pay for a good, strong, engine. Ideas? I'm assuming 50 hp is too much, but I did have two different ones offered up to me. I realize there is a certain point of diminishing returns, with idle speeds and carbon build up and such. The skeg cooler opens up more options, am I right?I was told a Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 would be a good one.Honestly, I don't know much about engines, and that's why I am asking. Thanks, Marlin | 32600|32585|2015-06-05 06:29:31|James Pronk|Re: 31 footer engine size|There are some really nice little diesels in the smaller refrigerator trucks. Two cylinders, water cooled, light but I'm not sure of the horse power?James| 32601|32584|2015-06-05 07:21:53|James Pronk|Re: Sheer legs|It would be hard to paint the sheer leg sockets after launching unless you have the boat pulled out at a marina. Kind of makes the sheer leg sockets redundant?| 32602|32581|2015-06-05 09:38:10|Aaron|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|It could just be the edge of the primer from being burnt from the heat of welding on the other side. You should be able to find similar at most weld locations. AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"williswildest@... [origamiboats]" Date:Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 9:25 PMSubject:[origamiboats] How to recognize crack in a plate?   I was welding 1/4" doubler gusset to the hull. Because of the curve there, I made 6"x6" gusset from 3 1/4"x2"x6" strips. It was still some play between the strips and the hull. After welding I wanted to see if welds were visible on the outside. That where I noticed a line on a primer which looks like a crack (may be it just a stain). I scraped primer off from part of the line, but I cannot see much.Is there simple way to check if this is a crack or not? Something simple (without magnaflux, etc.) | 32603|32584|2015-06-05 09:41:51|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sheer legs|I could careen the boat.| 32604|32581|2015-06-05 10:02:06|Matt Malone|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?| Wild,That is too bad.   To be clear, if cheap, accessible methods prove you have a problem, there is no point in spending money to prove you have a problem.  If you try something simple and get no confirmation of a problem, you MAY have no problem.The cost of using a more recognized method is not THAT high.   A can of penetrant is only $20 and a whole kit from a full-cost industrial supplier is only just over $100.   http://www.grainger.com/product/SPOTCHECK-Penetrant-3WU63?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3NE71_AS01?$smthumb$Then you would have enough to check important spots where you are pretty sure you do not have a problem.   Finding a problem when you were pretty sure there was none is very useful.   Harbour freight, or Princess Auto or their ilk of reduced cost suppliers might sell a lot cheaper.   Then there are welders in the area that might pop over and spray a bit on your spot for a case of beer and tell you based on their specialist opinion based on their eyes on the problem whether you have a problem or not.   There was one marine mechanic I worked with and his favourite thing when someone called to ask a question was to ask them to hold the part in question up to the phone.  (To demonstrate how useless advise over the phone is.)   He would then say they might instead bring it around to his shop for him to look at it.   I think the internet is the same when it comes down to details and problems.  I would get a welder to look at it.  I think only eyes on the problem is going to give you a reliable answer.  Then there is the entire peace of mind aspect of this.  When you are out sailing, the metal does not care if you used a cheap method, dye penetrant or the skill and knowledge of an expert, but, the third option will probably provide you with more personal peace of mind I think.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:03:49 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] How to recognize crack in a plate?   Sound does not work. It is compound curve and every spot has different sound. Plus, it already has doubler and pipe over it, I tried to tap another side of the hull and it sound differently in that area as well. That spot is facing down. So, no luck to put something like sand on it. I will put some pictures in files or picture section.Any idea how to make DIY household dye penetrant? Or just scrape primer off with a knife and spray that area with vinegar and let it rust? I guess if there is a crack, it will rust and when you remove surface rust, crack should be visible.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sound can be good.  If this is on a level piece, putting a little sand on the area and tapping to one side of the crack with a small hard hammer to give high frequencies might give you an added indication.   Compare to other areas.  Magneflux or dye penetrant are industry standard ways. Matt "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I would tap it with a hammer and compare the sound with other areas.  I think the sound will be very different if it is a crack. Gary H. Lucas | 32605|32581|2015-06-05 10:04:07|Aaron|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|Try two magnets place one on each side of area of concern then take steel grinding dust throw or blow it on look close then move magnets 90 degs try again. Sort of a poor man's mag test. Red oxide iron powder is real fine and easy to see.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"williswildest@... [origamiboats]" Date:Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:03 PMSubject:Re: [origamiboats] How to recognize crack in a plate?   Sound does not work. It is compound curve and every spot has different sound. Plus, it already has doubler and pipe over it, I tried to tap another side of the hull and it sound differently in that area as well. That spot is facing down. So, no luck to put something like sand on it. I will put some pictures in files or picture section.Any idea how to make DIY household dye penetrant? Or just scrape primer off with a knife and spray that area with vinegar and let it rust? I guess if there is a crack, it will rust and when you remove surface rust, crack should be visible.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sound can be good.  If this is on a level piece, putting a little sand on the area and tapping to one side of the crack with a small hard hammer to give high frequencies might give you an added indication.   Compare to other areas.  Magneflux or dye penetrant are industry standard ways. Matt "gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I would tap it with a hammer and compare the sound with other areas.  I think the sound will be very different if it is a crack. Gary H. Lucas | 32606|32584|2015-06-05 11:37:51|James Pronk|Re: Sheer legs|Wow you must have some big tides on Lake Superior.Paint the boat on sheer legs.Careen on port side to paint starboard sheer leg socket. Careen on starboard side to paint port sheer leg socket and repeat!In situations like this I ask "what would Brent do!"James| 32607|32584|2015-06-05 12:29:03|Gordon Schnell|Re: Sheer legs|Regardless of the type of metal you use for “legs”, you would be remiss to not paint the sockets….corrosion doesn’t care.Gord On Jun 4, 2015, at 5:21 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:Don't you think painting the inside of the sheer leg sockets would be very difficult? Also, the inside of the sockets would get a lot of wear and tear under use, eh? But yeah, I hear ya cluckin' big chicken, about the dissimilar metals.| 32608|32584|2015-06-05 12:57:37|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sheer legs|Has ANYONE actually installed sheerlegs on their or any boat? In the book, Brent says "sch 40 stainless" for sockets.  There are no tides on Lake Superior, I don't know what tides have to do with careening, and careening is 500 dollars cheaper then using the crane.  Sheer legs would allow me the luxury of not needing a cradle, and being able to take my "cradle" with me wherever I roam, and obviously allow me to dry out when I leave the lake and sail somewhere. So in regards to 316 for sockets and corrosion, why aren't people painting there stainless rudder gudgeon and pintle, the one which is supposed to be 316, the one which is below the waterline?   | 32609|32584|2015-06-05 13:14:55|Matt Malone|Re: Sheer legs| Every other habitual contact point on the hull is stainless.  Can a socket below water line be stainless?   Can the opening of the socket be an interior thread that a plastic plug threads into from the outside?  If one has a little pipe and ball-valve cock on the inside of the socket somewhere that would allow air and perhaps fresh water or oil to be added to the sealed socket.  For instance: Remove the shear leg.  Thread the plug almost all the way with some toilet wax to be near-sealed.   Open the cock on the inside, use pressurized air to force out the seawater.   Force fresh water in to wash away the salt residue left by the sea water.   Force air in to force the wash water out.  Tighten the cap on the outside.   Put some preserving oil in, then with a long thin wand with compressed air, give the little puddle of oil resting up against the inside of the cap a toot to make it splash and coat the entire inside of the socket.   Would sealed and oil-preserved work to keep corrosion away?  Paint on regular steel in a contact socket seems doomed.  If it were regular steel, I would consider just making the socket really thick and don't worry about a little rust.   Wire-brush it and slap more paint in when it causes objectionable streaks down the side of the hull.  When I made the cradle for my boat, I decided the key was to have enough pads so that I could remove any one and work without the boat falling over.  The same approach on shear-leg sockets would allow servicing any one of them while the others hold the boat up.   Also a small lean on the boat can help.  Suppose there was a gentle slope to the beach.  Suppose one has 4 shear legs, 2 on each side properly designed and positioned so that one of the two on a given side will handle foreseeable wind-gust loading on the broad-side of the hull.  One might then put first port, then starboard more uphill.   Note I did not say beam-to-the-slope!   One might not need all the slope to keep the boat leaned safely to the downslope side enough to make this work.  On a steep beach, just a little off-head-in to the beach might be enough to keep the boat leaning to one side.  Then on successive tides one could service the two sockets, one at a time, on the uphill, less loaded side.   Provided the wind was not on-shore and gusty or storm, the two downslope legs and keel would hold most of the force, and the one up-slope leg would carry the balance as needed for a brief time while servicing one socket.    There would be a thousand ways to get this wrong in practice and end up with a boat laying down, maybe with part of a shear leg punched through an unreinforced part of the hull, maybe with the skipper under the boat, but, the same can be said of shear legs in general.  Great care must be used in their design and each individual use or they could cause more trouble.   In this respect, twin keels are so much better, though not necessarily fool-proof, all-conditions tolerant.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 10:29:00 -0600Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sheer legs   Regardless of the type of metal you use for “legs”, you would be remiss to not paint the sockets….corrosion doesn’t care.Gord On Jun 4, 2015, at 5:21 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:Don't you think painting the inside of the sheer leg sockets would be very difficult? Also, the inside of the sockets would get a lot of wear and tear under use, eh? But yeah, I hear ya cluckin' big chicken, about the dissimilar metals. | 32610|32584|2015-06-05 13:42:43|Matt Malone|Re: Sheer legs| I guess careening on Lake Superior means, some big machine drags you out of the water and up the beach a ways.  I have heard of this done in yards, they put huge timbers and nothing else under the boat and slide the timbers on the ground.  Something bull-dozer-like is generally used.   Careening generally means, come in very shallow on a nice soft beach with no pointy stones, and very gentle wave action, and allow the receding tide to leave the boat beached.  Twin keels make this easy if the beach material bears weight well (not oozy) and the tide is more than a meter.   Even if the water never gets less than ankle-deep, one can walk around the boat and scrape it.   If it stays dependably dry for longer (no wave splash, bigger tides) one might paint.   Old wooden boats would be careened more to one side or the other to expose more of the bilge on one the other side.   If a boat is careened well, the next high tide floats it off.  Ideally, it is a one-man job, and free, given the right beach.   Good bays or beaches for careening are sometimes historically formally named  with the word careen or might still be labelled on some charts with the word careen.   Nowdays with environmental consciousness, and the toxic chemicals typically used in bottom coatings, locals might  not advertize that a spot is good for careening because it would draw in boats, and because of the scraping, sanding and painting activities carried out when a boat is careened, would tend to concentrate more of those chemicals in that bay or place.   However, there is potentially money to be made from foreign boats that are certain to be high and dry and unable to move for  hours, so, it will depend on the area, the casual labour pool (who may offer to do the bottom work for you for a price), local corruption, etc.I have never used shear legs or careened, or gone aground intentionally.        MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 09:57:36 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sheer legs   Has ANYONE actually installed sheerlegs on their or any boat? In the book, Brent says "sch 40 stainless" for sockets.  There are no tides on Lake Superior, I don't know what tides have to do with careening, and careening is 500 dollars cheaper then using the crane.  Sheer legs would allow me the luxury of not needing a cradle, and being able to take my "cradle" with me wherever I roam, and obviously allow me to dry out when I leave the lake and sail somewhere. So in regards to 316 for sockets and corrosion, why aren't people painting there stainless rudder gudgeon and pintle, the one which is supposed to be 316, the one which is below the waterline?    | 32611|32584|2015-06-05 13:59:07|brentswain38|Re: Sheer legs|I use sch 40 stainless pipe for the sockets, with a stainless plate welded on the end ,to eliminate any mild steel in the socket.I tie an eye on the outside top of the sheerleg, to a stanchion, to hold it in. There is enough air (methane) from decomposition of material on the bottom of the ocean, to stop it from filling with water anyway. It has no more drag than a thru hull, so don't worry about plugging it. A couple of stainless acorn nuts welded flush to the bottom at right angles, two feet from the sheerleg socket, let you bolt braces on to stiffen the sheerleg, if you plan to  stay awhile. There is no need for more than two sheerlegs.| 32612|32584|2015-06-05 14:02:52|brentswain38|Re: Sheer legs|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has ANYONE actually installed sheerlegs on their or any boat? In the book, Brent says "sch 40 stainless" for sockets. Yes, several have. There are no tides on Lake Superior, I don't know what tides have to do with careening, and careening is 500 dollars cheaper then using the crane.  Sheer legs would allow me the luxury of not needing a cradle, and being able to take my "cradle" with me wherever I roam, and obviously allow me to dry out when I leave the lake and sail somewhere. So in regards to 316 for sockets and corrosion, why aren't people painting there stainless rudder gudgeon and pintle, the one which is supposed to be 316, the one which is below the waterline?   | 32613|32584|2015-06-05 14:05:09|brentswain38|Re: Sheer legs|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I could careen the boat.Sheer legs are also nice to have in a boat yard, as you get to paint the entire bottom, with no blocking to work around| 32614|32585|2015-06-05 14:08:57|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer engine size|You wont  be pushing much ice, just ramming your way thru it. If you cant break it, you wont move it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : If pushing ice is what you want to do, then really what you want is something capable of very high static thrust (bollard pull).  For this a large diameter low pitch prop is going to be a winner (except when you want to sail later on).  You'd need to increase the size of the prop aperture to do this, and you'd want a fairly high ratio gearbox and preferably low rpm engine.  Really this all has more to do with the prop than the engine.  Dave Gerr has an excellent book called "The Propeller Handbook" that is excellent for figuring out this kind of thing.  If you look at a nomogram like the one in the link below you can see the relationship between HP, Prop Diameter and RPM.  If you try an put too much HP through too small a prop you are just wasting energy without getting useful thrust.  I suspect if you worked all the numbers and looked at the trade-offs you'd come to the conclusion that anything much over 30HP is not worthwhile.  http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-building/85d1016920502-bigger-props-faster-ship-propdia.gif Darren On 15-06-04 04:35 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I don't want a 50 hp, it was just offered up for nothing.  I certainly don't want the engine to take up a ton of space.  I wasn't imagining ramming my way through ice as much as pushing through bits and large chunks, because that's what we get here on the lake. Waking up at anchor with a mile of ice on all sides, with no room to get a running start, that's why I want the little extra power. Not talking a huge amount, but just a little extra. One still has to navigate ice, just like any other weather factor, the less ramming the better. I'll let the fish tugs take care of the ice busting, and follow their lead.   | 32615|32584|2015-06-05 23:00:56|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Sheer legs|Yes... I have installed sheerlegs on my 40' early in the construction, as a matter of factSent from my iPhone On Jun 5, 2015, at 10:57 AM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Has ANYONE actually installed sheerlegs on their or any boat? In the book, Brent says "sch 40 stainless" for sockets.  There are no tides on Lake Superior, I don't know what tides have to do with careening, and careening is 500 dollars cheaper then using the crane.  Sheer legs would allow me the luxury of not needing a cradle, and being able to take my "cradle" with me wherever I roam, and obviously allow me to dry out when I leave the lake and sail somewhere. So in regards to 316 for sockets and corrosion, why aren't people painting there stainless rudder gudgeon and pintle, the one which is supposed to be 316, the one which is below the waterline?    | 32616|32581|2015-06-06 01:17:56|wild_explorer|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|I tried to use welding magnets (on the side of assumed crack surface) and steel grinding dust. Applied dust stays on whole area until wind blows it off, Not much indication so far.I cleaned that area with vinegar - will see if it rusts and shows crack/no-crackI will probably get welding test penetrant (if available from local welding shop) - just to be sure it is not a crack.Thank you everyone for the suggestions and help.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Try two magnets place one on each side of area of concern then take steel grinding dust throw or blow it on look close then move magnets 90 degs try again. Sort of a poor man's mag test. Red oxide iron powder is real fine and easy to see.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 32617|32581|2015-06-06 02:07:18|opuspaul|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|The spot check kits are basically a dye penetrant with a dry developer.  The kits work well (especially the flourescent ones)  but you might get luck using stuff you already have on hand.  I have had good luck finding small leaks in fuel lines using baby powder or flour.You cold try cleaning and drying the area thoroughly.   Remove the paint if you can.   Spray with diesel or other pentrating oil.  If it is colored, it is easier to see......   Try mixing in some ATF so it is red.Let penetrate for 10 or 15 minutes.   Wipe dry and degrease with a rag soaked soaked in solvent.If you have done it right, there will be the penetrating oil left in the crack and nothing on the surface.Lightly dust with baby powder or flour.  If there is a crack, the oil should come out and soak into the powder and leave a line.If that doesn't work spend the money for one of the kits.   cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I tried to use welding magnets (on the side of assumed crack surface) and steel grinding dust. Applied dust stays on whole area until wind blows it off, Not much indication so far.I cleaned that area with vinegar - will see if it rusts and shows crack/no-crackI will probably get welding test penetrant (if available from local welding shop) - just to be sure it is not a crack.Thank you everyone for the suggestions and help.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Try two magnets place one on each side of area of concern then take steel grinding dust throw or blow it on look close then move magnets 90 degs try again. Sort of a poor man's mag test. Red oxide iron powder is real fine and easy to see.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 32618|32585|2015-06-06 03:04:25|Hannu Venermo|Re: 31 footer engine size| What you need is 1/2 x displacement. And a big(ger) prop if you want actual thrust. (This was the rule for about 60 years, until ads and advertising became more important than actual nautical use.) Avg yacht engines are 3-6x too big. About 100% of yacht engines fail from lack of use and maintenance. Underloading and lack of use is the nr 1 cause. On 05/06/2015 12:24, Juan José Yaboada zingaraiii@... [origamiboats] wrote: what you need is HP = 4 x displacement (in tons) What you want is HP + 5  -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32619|32585|2015-06-06 03:09:18|Hannu Venermo|Re: 31 footer engine size|Agree very much with Brent. Ice is very heavy, even in thin sheets. It pretty much does what it want, including to heavy pilons, and heavy steel displacement boats (50-100 tons), and strong, sturdy constructions. A thin ice sheet can weigh 100-1000 times your vessel, and will push with (x10) tons of force with light wind. On 05/06/2015 20:07, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > You wont be pushing much ice, just ramming your way thru it. If you > cant break it, you wont move it. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32620|32581|2015-06-06 10:00:33|Norm Moore|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|Why screw around with kits.  Check the yellow pages for magnaflux testing.  A lot of them have portable rigs that can come out and test for cracks. Norm Moore On Friday, June 5, 2015 11:07 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   The spot check kits are basically a dye penetrant with a dry developer.  The kits work well (especially the flourescent ones)  but you might get luck using stuff you already have on hand.  I have had good luck finding small leaks in fuel lines using baby powder or flour.You cold try cleaning and drying the area thoroughly.   Remove the paint if you can.   Spray with diesel or other pentrating oil.  If it is colored, it is easier to see......   Try mixing in some ATF so it is red.Let penetrate for 10 or 15 minutes.   Wipe dry and degrease with a rag soaked soaked in solvent.If you have done it right, there will be the penetrating oil left in the crack and nothing on the surface.Lightly dust with baby powder or flour.  If there is a crack, the oil should come out and soak into the powder and leave a line.If that doesn't work spend the money for one of the kits.   cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I tried to use welding magnets (on the side of assumed crack surface) and steel grinding dust. Applied dust stays on whole area until wind blows it off, Not much indication so far.I cleaned that area with vinegar - will see if it rusts and shows crack/no-crackI will probably get welding test penetrant (if available from local welding shop) - just to be sure it is not a crack.Thank you everyone for the suggestions and help.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Try two magnets place one on each side of area of concern then take steel grinding dust throw or blow it on look close then move magnets 90 degs try again. Sort of a poor man's mag test. Red oxide iron powder is real fine and easy to see.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 -- #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394 #ygrps-yiv-1915360525yiv7336958394ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1915360525 | 32621|32581|2015-06-06 11:30:25|wild_explorer|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|Thanks Paul! I was wondering what that developer is.So, the kit is simply fast evaporating degreaser, hi-visibility penetrating, and powder absorbent.OK. It is easy to find transmission fluid and diesel here. Flour, baby powder or foot powder in aerosol can in the store. De-greaser (like naphtha) or other solvent should be available in paint section in general store.I asked people from local welding shop about crack testing, but they say "Oh, yeah... Military inspectors do it all the time to inspect our work when we have contract. But we do not do it or have any kits"---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The spot check kits are basically a dye penetrant with a dry developer.  The kits work well (especially the flourescent ones)  but you might get luck using stuff you already have on hand.  I have had good luck finding small leaks in fuel lines using baby powder or flour.You cold try cleaning and drying the area thoroughly.   Remove the paint if you can.   Spray with diesel or other pentrating oil.  If it is colored, it is easier to see......   Try mixing in some ATF so it is red.Let penetrate for 10 or 15 minutes.   Wipe dry and degrease with a rag soaked soaked in solvent.If you have done it right, there will be the penetrating oil left in the crack and nothing on the surface.Lightly dust with baby powder or flour.  If there is a crack, the oil should come out and soak into the powder and leave a line.If that doesn't work spend the money for one of the kits.   cheers, Paul| 32622|32584|2015-06-06 11:31:43|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sheer legs|Gordon, What did you use for material for the sockets, and did you only use two?  Which boat is yours? That is all I am trying to figure out. Thanks,  Marlin| 32623|32581|2015-06-06 12:05:22|wild_explorer|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|Thanks for the idea Norm.I guess, it would be much more expensive than to get a kit. Rig + gas + round trip driving time + labor. Around several hundred bucks :( It would be cheaper to replace area in question.It is important to find out if this is a crack or not, but not urgent. I have lot of work to do anyway before putting hull on water.I would not buy blasted and primed steel anymore - hard to inspect primed plate (or need to do it before blasting). It is much easier to hide defects on a plate by blasting and painting it over than on plane steel. I had one area on the plate (side of the hull in question) which came with one spot heavily greased over primer - I had to use industrial de-greaser to remove grease from that spot (power brush did not work). It will need to re-blast hull anyway now (after sitting for couples of years under rain.I will not use CNC cutting anymore unless I know and see HOW supplier cut the steel. What I found out, that most suppliers cut the steel "over the water". But CNC operators (to lower fumes) usually make plate to touch or partially submerge in water. That makes edges hardened during plasma cutting. That why I had problems with edges cracking until I started to use 1/8" 7024 or 5/32 6013 electrodes on high current settings for tacking (high heat un-hardened the edges). Plus, that water stains and accelerate rust in the primer.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why screw around with kits.  Check the yellow pages for magnaflux testing.  A lot of them have portable rigs that can come out and test for cracks. Norm Moore| 32624|32584|2015-06-06 13:16:23|Gordon Schnell|Re: Sheer legs|MarlinTwo legs are all that is required. The keel is the third leg. I used regular heavy-wall steel pipe (same grade as the hull material) with an ID slightly larger than the OD of the sheer legs. I believe the sheer legs are 2.5” diameter.Gord On Jun 6, 2015, at 9:31 AM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:Gordon, What did you use for material for the sockets, and did you only use two?  Which boat is yours? That is all I am trying to figure out. Thanks,  Marlin| 32625|32585|2015-06-06 15:59:06|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer engine size|On my last boat, the topsides forward were more vertical, and butted ice head on, nearer to 90 degrees. Even thin ice would stop her. My current 31 . topsides forward, meet the ice at a shallower angle, forcing the ice under her, while the boat climbs on top. Being closer to an  ice breaker bow shape, it is far more effective in breaking ice.| 32626|32584|2015-06-06 16:00:53|brentswain38|Re: Sheer legs|Stainless sch 40 works fine for sheerleg sockets, and eliminates any corrosion problems.| 32627|32627|2015-06-06 18:19:45|svmoonraven@yahoo.com|Brent Swain 36 MOONRAVEN is for sale. Doug 250-218-9454|Sent from Samsung Mobile | 32628|32581|2015-06-06 18:20:17|opuspaul|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|The idea is to try to save money and try to be independent.   If you can come up with something that is home-brew it can save a lot of time and money.   In a lot of areas magnaflux testing (or the kits) may not be available.   I remember once having to take a 5 hour bus ride one way, just  to get an O-ring and a lip seal.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why screw around with kits.  Check the yellow pages for magnaflux testing.  A lot of them have portable rigs that can come out and test for cracks. Norm Moore | 32629|32629|2015-06-07 13:23:51|Gordon Schnell|Brent Swain 40 - For Sale|Brent Swain 40 For Sale - Richmond, BC She is listed on “sailboatlistings.com  Here is the link: "www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&sb=33&so=descend&price-gt=1&websearch=1&manufacturer=&model=Brent+Swain+40&length-gt=&length-lt=&year-lt=---&year-gt=---&price-lt=&type=---&material=---&hull=---&state=&view_records=+Show+Matching+Boats+"| 32630|32630|2015-06-09 01:19:31|wild_explorer|Leveling the hull with a plumb bob|I had to do re-leveling of the hull several times, but found that good heavy brass plumb bob (about $15) with string at deck/bulwark level (hanging at intersection of midships and center line - "CL") and another bright masonry string running from bow tip (with welded nail or electrode) to the center of the transom (at certain height point for horizontal leveling) works best.The problem with bubble level that even resting something on bulwark (lumber, pipe, angle) gives inconsistent reading due to sag, crooked lumber, position of the level and cross-member on bulwark pipe, etc.With a plumb bob, it is easy to check side-to-side (vertical) leveling and even to check twist of the hull. You mount plumb bob string at deck/bulwark level (on cross-member at midships and at equal distance from port and star bulwarks with plumb bob pointing down to CL/midships weld. You stay about several feet fore or aft from plumb bob line and eyeball/align it with a bow/transom masonry line.- if plumb bob line aligns with CL hull's weld (midships to bow/transom) AND masonry line above looking from aft and fore (you need to see midships/CL weld and tip of bow/transom - you move yourself up/down to see it all with one eye closed) - HULL IS VERTICALLY LEVEL and NOT TWISTED.- if plumb bob line AND masonry line aligned, but CL weld is not (to the same side of masonry line (looking at bow and transom) - HULL is NOT vertically level. - if plumb bob line AND masonry line aligned, but CL weld is on different side of masonry line looking fore/aft to bow and transom) - HULL is TWISTEDIt is possible to level hull horizontally with a bubble level hold next (on top) to masonry line. But for this, you need to know exact elevation of the line from transom edge/pipe (for leveled horizontal line projection).ORYou just make plumb bob point right to intersection of midships/CL. But for this, you need to be sure that the edge of cross-member where plumb bob string mounted, is located exactly at midships on bulwark pipes.I found that this gives VERY accurate leveling of the hull. | 32631|32581|2015-06-09 03:40:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: How to recognize crack in a plate?|To check my welds.  I bought a 3 tin aerosol dye penetrant set, cleaner, dye penetrant and developer from my welding supplies shop. I found two welds that were cracked.  One was where I decided to move a hole for a thru hull and welded the steel blank back in place creating a circular stress when my too hot and quick weld cooled.  The other was in the stern tube skeg weld.  Again a multi directional stress.  Regards,Ted| 32632|32585|2015-06-09 04:01:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: 31 footer engine size|Hi Marlin,I remember watching a 60' narrowboat breaking through the ice on an exposed section of the Grand Union canal (UK). their maximum speed is probably 6 knots.  It started in a sheltered section that wasn't frozen, then when it got to the gradually thickening ice it broke it then climbed up on it using its weight to break through.  Then it backed off and came forward again at its maximum 6 knots to climb up on it and break through.  Then it didn't break through any more and it stayed there.We have an ex ships lifeboat 25hp Daihatsu Diesel (normally aspirated) in our BS 36' twin keeler.  It still takes up a fair amount of room in the pilot house.  It gives about 6 knots at 3000 rpm.  I wouldn't mind a bit more power but I definitely wouldn't want a larger engine.  Regards,Ted---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On my last boat, the topsides forward were more vertical, and butted ice head on, nearer to 90 degrees. Even thin ice would stop her. My current 31 . topsides forward, meet the ice at a shallower angle, forcing the ice under her, while the boat climbs on top. Being closer to an  ice breaker bow shape, it is far more effective in breaking ice.| 32633|32585|2015-06-09 05:45:39|ANDREW AIREY|Re: 31 footer engine size|I'd forget it.At 6 knots you must be fairly close to hull speed{I forget the calculation} and for a displacement hull the power requirements for increases in speed above hull speed start going up exponentially.My experience of Isuzu diesels - in a van - was pretty good though.cheersAndy Airey| 32634|32585|2015-06-10 21:32:17|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer engine size|I have an Isuzu diesel. Wish It had a decompression lever, but short of that, I love it.| 32635|32635|2015-06-15 11:49:25|smallboatvoyaguer|Cost Of 31 Footer|I thought I'd share some info with everyone, in case someone is considering a 31 build.I've been purchasing mild non-primed steel. I have also been using stainless wherever possible through out the build. Today, I ordered what I believe to be the last large order of steel, which should finish the build.My total for steel thus far, sans welding rod, plus scrounging, is about $8,500.Zinga primer 2.5 gallon cost $775. Sherwin high build Coal tar 4 gallon (wholesale) is $290Spray foam Insulation .90 cent per board foot x 2 for two inches thick approx $20004' x 8' sheet of 1/2" acrylic for portlights is $500Wholesale on a new Vetus 16 hp engine w/ gearbox $6,000 - 8,000 Used Engine w/ gearbox $2,000And that's what we have so far, for the cost of a 31, year 2015 in Bayfield, Wisconsin.Welding Rod probably around $1,000 when it's all said and done.Mind you I've scored all of my wiring, switchboards, isolators, charger, solar, wind, interior wood, mast, boom, furler, electronics, plumbing, bilge pumps, foot pumps, composting head, fans, lights, inverter, for free.The boat yard owner isn't charging me for electricity or space. I work on the boat 12-16 hours a day with about 1 day off a week. I take a ten minute break every hour and I have two different friends helping me one or two days a week.  I built most of the deck hardware during the winter, indoors. I had to pull apart and rebuild the skeg three times, and I botched the first main hatch trying to make it fancy, and I botched an aft cabinside. Learning.Word, Marlin| 32636|32635|2015-06-15 12:01:33|Matt Malone|Re: Cost Of 31 Footer| Thank you Marlin, that is very helpful.   It sounds like you got very lucky on many things.   Can you give us an idea how many weeks you have been working on the boat so far...  it sounds like you are working on it 6 days a week, 70+hours a week, and you have help one or two days a week.   How many hours do you think you have put into it?MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 08:49:24 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Cost Of 31 Footer   I thought I'd share some info with everyone, in case someone is considering a 31 build.I've been purchasing mild non-primed steel. I have also been using stainless wherever possible through out the build. Today, I ordered what I believe to be the last large order of steel, which should finish the build.My total for steel thus far, sans welding rod, plus scrounging, is about $8,500.Zinga primer 2.5 gallon cost $775. Sherwin high build Coal tar 4 gallon (wholesale) is $290Spray foam Insulation .90 cent per board foot x 2 for two inches thick approx $20004' x 8' sheet of 1/2" acrylic for portlights is $500Wholesale on a new Vetus 16 hp engine w/ gearbox $6,000 - 8,000 Used Engine w/ gearbox $2,000And that's what we have so far, for the cost of a 31, year 2015 in Bayfield, Wisconsin.Welding Rod probably around $1,000 when it's all said and done.Mind you I've scored all of my wiring, switchboards, isolators, charger, solar, wind, interior wood, mast, boom, furler, electronics, plumbing, bilge pumps, foot pumps, composting head, fans, lights, inverter, for free.The boat yard owner isn't charging me for electricity or space. I work on the boat 12-16 hours a day with about 1 day off a week. I take a ten minute break every hour and I have two different friends helping me one or two days a week.  I built most of the deck hardware during the winter, indoors. I had to pull apart and rebuild the skeg three times, and I botched the first main hatch trying to make it fancy, and I botched an aft cabinside. Learning.Word, Marlin | 32637|32635|2015-06-15 12:06:55|Hannu Venermo|Re: Cost Of 31 Footer|So, about 14.000 $ in materials, and 1000$ in gas/sundries, about 15.000 so far, and you have most stuff except the engine, right ? How many hours so far ? How much in tools ? Excellent post ! On 15/06/2015 17:49, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I thought I'd share some info with everyone, in case someone is > considering a 31 build. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32638|32638|2015-06-18 02:35:26|jeagle999|Aluminum 31 Foot|Has any one build an aluminum 31 BS?Does anyone have a rough cost of the Hull in aluminum?Does anyone know someone who can put together an aluminum hull?Thanks john | 32639|32638|2015-06-18 05:14:23|Hannu Venermo|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|This comes up every now and then. Alu costs about 3x more than steel per mass. Its also about 3x less strong, and has 3x the thermal expansion. If you have the same mass in alu, it will be less strong than the steel boat, but likely plenty strong enough. If the steel costs, e.g. 12.000 $, the equivalent alu would then be == 36.000 $. You could, if you want, make it thinner and lighter. Welding the alu would likely cost about 3-5000$. Look for a local welder or welding shop with experience welding alu. Its tricky, in that welds can look good, but not be structurally sound. Lots of sailboats are made in alu in france, for example. They last forever, dont need any painting (you should not expect to be able to paint them.) On 18/06/2015 08:35, jeagle999@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Has any one build an aluminum 31 BS? > > Does anyone have a rough cost of the Hull in aluminum? > > Does anyone know someone who can put together an aluminum hull? > > > Thanks john > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32640|32638|2015-06-18 09:24:07|a.sobriquet|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|Actually, if you build a hull out of aluminum which weighs the same as a comparable steel hull, the aluminum hull will be much stronger.Aluminum Strength vs Steel Strength Aluminum Strength vs Steel Strength Custom yacht design services. Blue water yachts with 'modern-classic' design in steel, aluminum, fiberglass or wood. View on www.kastenmarine... Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This comes up every now and then. Alu costs about 3x more than steel per mass. Its also about 3x less strong, and has 3x the thermal expansion. If you have the same mass in alu, it will be less strong than the steel boat, but likely plenty strong enough. If the steel costs, e.g. 12.000 $, the equivalent alu would then be == 36.000 $. You could, if you want, make it thinner and lighter. Welding the alu would likely cost about 3-5000$. Look for a local welder or welding shop with experience welding alu. Its tricky, in that welds can look good, but not be structurally sound. Lots of sailboats are made in alu in france, for example. They last forever, dont need any painting (you should not expect to be able to paint them.) | 32641|32638|2015-06-18 09:44:25|garyhlucas|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot| If you build with 3/8” aluminum plate instead of 3/16” steel your hull will 2/3 the weight of steel. Twice as much aluminum is about the same strength as the steel.  However stiffness is the square of the thickness so the aluminum hull is far stiffer.  Welding aluminum is not that tricky, you really have to use Mig which is easier than stick welding.  Getting the weld strength is easy too.  You need to make sure you are spray arc welding.  Spray arc ensures weld strength and is twice as fast as short arc.  I’ve written extensively here about how to set up the machine to get spray arc.  You don’t have to sand blast.  You don’t have to paint.  So you may in fact get done quicker. The only downside really is that it will cost you more initially. However the resale value on a properly built aluminum boat is likely to be a lot more.  Me, I just plain enjoy working with aluminum and would love to have an aluminum boat.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum 31 Foot     Actually, if you build a hull out of aluminum which weighs the same as a comparable steel hull, the aluminum hull will be much stronger.Aluminum Strength vs Steel Strength Aluminum Strength vs Steel Strength Custom yacht design services. Blue water yachts with 'modern-classic' design in steel, aluminum, fiberglass or wood. View on www.kastenmarine... Preview by Yahoo   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : This comes up every now and then.Alu costs about 3x more than steel per mass.Its also about 3x less strong, and has 3x the thermal expansion.If you have the same mass in alu, it will be less strong than the steel boat, but likely plenty strong enough.If the steel costs, e.g.12.000 $, the equivalent alu would then be == 36.000 $.You could, if you want, make it thinner and lighter.Welding the alu would likely cost about 3-5000$.Look for a local welder or welding shop with experience welding alu.Its tricky, in that welds can look good, but not be structurally sound.Lots of sailboats are made in alu in france, for example.They last forever, dont need any painting (you should not expect to be able to paint them.) | 32642|32638|2015-06-18 09:59:31|Hannu Venermo|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|This not actually correct. The skin will be lighter, but the boat wont. The webs are also a strctural part of the boat, actually the most important part. And, alu is 1/3 the strength of steel, not 2/3. Special alloys aside, as we are not using them, just like we dont use special steel alloys outside military use. Curiosity. (At least some) Military vessels use "battle steel" which is hard to weld and requires pre and post heat to be properly done. This stuff from a weld line 150 m sold to spanish military boatyard. I would also enjoy an alu boat, and think its an excellent material. However, I find it uncomfortabel as-is, and thus internal coverings, thermal isolation etc. are a necessity. Otherwise it rings, is noisy, and you are cold (hot) all the time. 3x thermal conductivity of steel. The best cruiser I know of is built in alu, the FPB by Steve Dashew. On 18/06/2015 15:43, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > If you build with 3/8” aluminum plate instead of 3/16” steel your hull > will 2/3 the weight of steel. Twice as much aluminum is about the same > strength as the steel. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32643|32638|2015-06-18 09:59:59|Hannu Venermo|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|I somewhat disagree- Take a bar of alu and steel, of the same mass. The alu is about 3x less "strong". The fact that the actual analysis is complex, and a boat is a developed shape, is just semantics. There is no way that a less rigid material, of lower ultimate strength, is ever "stronger" than the other material. The link you pointed to, at 1.5 thickness in alu vs steel, agrees with this. The thicker alu is a bit less strong than the steel. In actual fact, the steel will be quite a bit stronger, as the webs actually make the object into a complex shape. The article from kasten marine does not take any account of this. About 90% of all strength actually comes from the web, and not the thickness of the skin. Strength == web height cubed. Measuring flat skin yield is not a good or true representation without taking the web into account. Its however true that the factor of I, free length (thickness) cubed = rigidity. Thus the actual issue is more complex than it first seems. The fact that metal boats are "stronger" than needed is also true, as I said, and (like I said) the alu boat could actually be lighter (while being far LESS strong), does not matter in the real world because even the far lighter alu boat would still be plenty strong enough. A good comparison can be made to wood. A very good wood beam can be about 30-50% stronger than mild steel by mass. Also, because the wood skin is thick, it will be very much more rigid. (Say 6 mm in steel and 60 mm in wood). Nevertheless, a boat is heavy and thus has a great deal of inertia and energy in it. The failure modes in a boat will be twist, bend or impact. In impact cases the steel boat will be the "best" or strongest material. For rigidity/bend wood wins, and alu is second. In an impact, the total energy is so high that the wood and alu will bend, and may or may not puncture. With enough energy, the steel will also puncture (titanic), but the required energy is very much higher. In actual practice, both wood and alu boats get dented very easily. Just go look at any boats in the harbour. Steel .. not really. Can and does happen, but much less. Again, a look in the nearest harbour will confirm this. This is only academic. Both wood and alu are also excellent materials. In fact, alu would be an ideal boatbuilding material, if it had the same cost as steel, instead of about 3x higher. And a much higher weld cost. On 18/06/2015 15:24, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Actually, if you build a hull out of aluminum which weighs the same as > a comparable steel hull, the aluminum hull will be much stronger. > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32644|32638|2015-06-18 13:57:08|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|When a friend built a 36 out of aluminium, the bare aluminium, sitting on the ground, was $20K ,at a time when the steel was $6K. Welds frequently crack on aluminium ,but weld cracking is extremely rare on mild steel.Aluminium welding is far more expensive and fussy about conditions, than steel welding. They are far easier to screw up.  A bare aluminium boat in tropical sun can burn the soles off your feet.  A couple I met in Tonga in a bare aluminium boat, said it took til 2 AM for the boat to cool off enough to let them sleep. You definitely have to paint them, to make them liveable.  The paint is not all that critical tho, any white paint slapped on will do. Not a problem in cooler latitudes, except even there you have to paint the decks.While the resale price of aluminium may be higher, the resale value( gap between resale price and original cost)  may be lower. Its extremely diificult to find antifouling paint which wont eat aluminium with corrosion. The bilges should be blasted and painted ,or a penny dropped in may eat it's way right thru, with electrolysis.   One aluminium31 was built in Western Australia. A picture of it may be in the photos section.| 32645|32638|2015-06-18 14:11:59|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|Kasten is the guy who continues to say that origami methods a can't be used for decks, keels, rudders, skegs, etc , something  we have been doing since the first  origami boat we built. Photos of that are in the photos section of this site, an d in my book. He has been  told this long ago, yet he continues to spread the bullshit. Kasten is a very poor and unreliable  source of information.| 32646|32646|2015-06-18 16:19:12|smallboatvoyaguer|Work Before Sandblasting|Here is my plan, and I'm wondering if anyone see's any mistakes within it.Basically I'm going to build the entire boat, do as much deck detailing as possible, and do as much finish welding as possible. I'll leave the 6 longitudinal stringers which go on the hull bottom off, and the cabin tops off. Then, I'll cut the slot for the keel (with angles tacked in to keep the slot from spreading).Then I'll sandblast everything and prime, including the keel, longitudinal stringers, and cabin tops.Then I'll go back and install the longitudinal stringers, keel, trunk cabin top, and pilot house top, then do the deck detailing on top of the cabin tops. Then install the life rails.I considered installing the life-rails as soon as possible, but then I won't be able to pull the cabin tops up into position. the life rails would be in the way. Does anyone think the installed life-rails would be able to support the cabin tops being dragged over the top of them? Maybe with some temporary bracing?  I used 3/4" uprights with 1" rails. SCH 40.| 32647|32647|2015-06-18 16:26:14|smallboatvoyaguer|31 Pilothouse height/ length|In my plans, there are two height measurements given for the pilothouse, one forward near the front windows, and one aft at the apex of the pilothouse. Unfortunately, both of these numbers are partially scribbled out or erased. Unreadable.Does anyone have any idea what those numbers are supposed to be?I mocked up a pilothouse side off the dimensions of a 36 footer, but it looks funny, so I am guessing there are different numbers for the 31.I thought maybe 24 1/2" forward and 26 1/2" aft. Like I said, impossible to read.| 32648|32638|2015-06-18 17:36:52|opuspaul|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|I think if the aluminum welds are cracking then they weren't done properly.   Gary is 100% correct.  It is critical that the machine be set up properly with spray welding.   I learned this for myself when I got my  MIG aluminum ticket a few years ago.  I could put a low setting on the machine and do a beautiful looking, fully penetrated weld that had no strength.   I was welding 10 mm plate, notched and welded from both sides.   I would cut throghh the weld, polish it and look at my weld under a magnifying glass.   Everything looked great...full penetration with no bubbles and no voids.   I would then put it in a press with a point load on the weld.   When pressing down at the weld it would bend a bit before snapping at the weld.   The weld, although looking great, had the strength of cheese.By turning the heat setting much higher and going faster and spraying the molten metal like Gary says, the weld was much, much stronger.   When bending and testing my welds, I could fold the plate right around on the weld line without any cracking or snapping at the weld.  The weld with it's thicker bead,  had about the same strength as the plate.I now think that any time a weld cracks on an aluminum boat, that the welder didn't know what he was really doing.   This is much more common than people think because having the heat setting low allows you to weld slower which is easier for inexperienced welders and easier to do on thin plate.   So it is very tempting to have a low heat setting.  The only problem is that it has no strength!   Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When a friend built a 36 out of aluminium, the bare aluminium, sitting on the ground, was $20K ,at a time when the steel was $6K. Welds frequently crack on aluminium ,but weld cracking is extremely rare on mild steel.Aluminium welding is far more expensive and fussy about conditions, than steel welding. They are far easier to screw up.  A bare aluminium boat in tropical sun can burn the soles off your feet.  A couple I met in Tonga in a bare aluminium boat, said it took til 2 AM for the boat to cool off enough to let them sleep. You definitely have to paint them, to make them liveable.  The paint is not all that critical tho, any white paint slapped on will do. Not a problem in cooler latitudes, except even there you have to paint the decks.While the resale price of aluminium may be higher, the resale value( gap between resale price and original cost)  may be lower. Its extremely diificult to find antifouling paint which wont eat aluminium with corrosion. The bilges should be blasted and painted ,or a penny dropped in may eat it's way right thru, with electrolysis.   One aluminium31 was built in Western Australia. A picture of it may be in the photos section.| 32649|32638|2015-06-18 19:02:49|opuspaul|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|You could burn your feet on the deck on any boat in the tropics if it isn't painted white, no matter what the material.  A lot of boats try light cream, blue or grey decks but they often end up being too hot for bare feet.   Teak decks are probably the worst.   If metal boats are painted with non-skid paint on deck and insulated down below, heat normally isn't a problem.   The Dashew's use plain aluminum checker plate for non-skid and then wear shoes.  They seem to like the battleship look.   I don't think I would do this.  If I had a choice, I would have a thick skinned unpainted aluminum boat with Kiwigrip paint for non-skid where you walk or sit.  The aluminum boats I have been on with just paint on the non-skid areas have been fine.   On metal surfaces in the cockpit where you regularly touch or lean, I would use regular paint.  The Kiwigrip non-skid is easy to do, cheap, lasts for many years and is easy on the eyes in the sun.The people who build metal boats and don't insulate them (common in Aus and NZ) are crazy.   They are much  too hot in the summer and much too cool in the winter.   They are also noisy and rust much more inside if the paint isn't done properly.  They drip continually in cool weather.   I have seen quite a few that ended up scrapped due to corrosion.  An extra few thousand paid for a good paint job and good insulation would have done wonders.   I have seen total rust buckets and then had brokers tell me that it is normal......they say all metal boats are rusty inside.   What nonsense.   I tell them my boat is more than 25 years old without a spot of rust and they just look at me with a blank face.   Paul| 32650|32638|2015-06-18 22:59:54|Mark Hamill|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot| This guy builds aluminum boats and has built his own Swain. http://www.wolfboats.com/| 32651|32646|2015-06-19 02:16:26|wild_explorer|Re: Work Before Sandblasting|You can install life rails on one side of the deck. It will allow you to walk much safer on one side and pull cabin top from another side. I am pulling all my metal to a boat from one side only anyway.For protection from the sun and rain inside the boat, I put a top of 20x10 ft portable car port. It covers almost all deck (and opening) of 40 ft boat and allows to work comfortably inside - plenty of air and cool inside when 80-85F outside (it has white/tan plastic cover). It is easy to take plastic cover off or disassemble tubular frame if needed. Cost (of full carport with top, sides and ends) is about $200 new (available from Costco or Sam's Club, etc), you may find used one for $50. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Then I'll go back and install the longitudinal stringers, keel, trunk cabin top, and pilot house top, then do the deck detailing on top of the cabin tops. Then install the life rails.I considered installing the life-rails as soon as possible, but then I won't be able to pull the cabin tops up into position. the life rails would be in the way. Does anyone think the installed life-rails would be able to support the cabin tops being dragged over the top of them? Maybe with some temporary bracing?  I used 3/4" uprights with 1" rails. SCH 40.| 32652|32652|2015-06-19 06:42:31|smallboatvoyaguer|Making Mast Shoe/boot/ step thing| So I am planning on making a new mast shoe out of stainless, 11 gauge, to replace the weird bolt on thing that came with it.  I figured I'd just follow the plan for one out of brents book.  Since this would mean an aluminum mast slid into a stainless shoe, do the two need to be isolated from each other to prevent electrolysis? Would any rubber material work?  I am not talking about a mast step. Just to be clear. Talking about the thing between the mast step and the base of the mast. Thoughts? -Marlin| 32653|32638|2015-06-19 08:57:27|garyhlucas|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot| I used to work in the greenhouse industry and they used extruded aluminum benches welded together on site. A customer had thousands of them and lots of problems with the welds breaking.  He bought another 500 and a guy came in to weld them.  I told the owner the welds were not strong and the machine was set up wrong. He asked me to see what I could do about it and I spent an hour changing the machine settings and testing welds.  The welder was pissed because he got paid by the bench not by the hour and he felt I wasted an hour of his time.  However the welds were clearly much stronger.  A couple of days later I asked the owner how it was going.  He said the welder was no longer pissed.  He was getting the same rate and my changes had cut his welding time in half, so he was making a lot more per hour!   This was 2mm thick aluminum.  You MUST spray arc weld aluminum!   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 5:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum 31 Foot     I think if the aluminum welds are cracking then they weren't done properly.   Gary is 100% correct.  It is critical that the machine be set up properly with spray welding.   I learned this for myself when I got my  MIG aluminum ticket a few years ago.  I could put a low setting on the machine and do a beautiful looking, fully penetrated weld that had no strength.   I was welding 10 mm plate, notched and welded from both sides.   I would cut throghh the weld, polish it and look at my weld under a magnifying glass.   Everything looked great...full penetration with no bubbles and no voids.   I would then put it in a press with a point load on the weld.   When pressing down at the weld it would bend a bit before snapping at the weld.   The weld, although looking great, had the strength of cheese.By turning the heat setting much higher and going faster and spraying the molten metal like Gary says, the weld was much, much stronger.   When bending and testing my welds, I could fold the plate right around on the weld line without any cracking or snapping at the weld.  The weld with it's thicker bead,  had about the same strength as the plate.I now think that any time a weld cracks on an aluminum boat, that the welder didn't know what he was really doing.   This is much more common than people think because having the heat setting low allows you to weld slower which is easier for inexperienced welders and easier to do on thin plate.   So it is very tempting to have a low heat setting.  The only problem is that it has no strength!   Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : When a friend built a 36 out of aluminium, the bare aluminium, sitting on the ground, was $20K ,at a time when the steel was $6K. Welds frequently crack on aluminium ,but weld cracking is extremely rare on mild steel.Aluminium welding is far more expensive and fussy about conditions, than steel welding. They are far easier to screw up.  A bare aluminium boat in tropical sun can burn the soles off your feet.  A couple I met in Tonga in a bare aluminium boat, said it took til 2 AM for the boat to cool off enough to let them sleep. You definitely have to paint them, to make them liveable.  The paint is not all that critical tho, any white paint slapped on will do. Not a problem in cooler latitudes, except even there you have to paint the decks.While the resale price of aluminium may be higher, the resale value( gap between resale price and original cost)  may be lower. Its extremely diificult to find antifouling paint which wont eat aluminium with corrosion. The bilges should be blasted and painted ,or a penny dropped in may eat it's way right thru, with electrolysis.   One aluminium31 was built in Western Australia. A picture of it may be in the photos section.| 32654|32638|2015-06-19 12:03:47|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|You made my point,. It is extremely easy to screw up an aluminium weld, far easier than screwing up a steel stick weld.| 32655|32646|2015-06-19 12:03:51|brentswain38|Re: Work Before Sandblasting|Sounds like a good plan.Sandblast all the rest of your steel, and prime it at the same time.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Here is my plan, and I'm wondering if anyone see's any mistakes within it.Basically I'm going to build the entire boat, do as much deck detailing as possible, and do as much finish welding as possible. I'll leave the 6 longitudinal stringers which go on the hull bottom off, and the cabin tops off. Then, I'll cut the slot for the keel (with angles tacked in to keep the slot from spreading).Then I'll sandblast everything and prime, including the keel, longitudinal stringers, and cabin tops.Then I'll go back and install the longitudinal stringers, keel, trunk cabin top, and pilot house top, then do the deck detailing on top of the cabin tops. Then install the life rails.I considered installing the life-rails as soon as possible, but then I won't be able to pull the cabin tops up into position. the life rails would be in the way. Does anyone think the installed life-rails would be able to support the cabin tops being dragged over the top of them? Maybe with some temporary bracing?  I used 3/4" uprights with 1" rails. SCH 40.| 32656|32638|2015-06-19 12:11:46|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|A guy I worked with, who had worked on the gulf shrimp boats, said the shrimp boats in the gulf are done with the same attitude. The give them a couple of coats of cheap enamel ,no paint inside, then work them  for 5 years. Then they scrap them and take all the gear over to the next hull. He said the pipe rub rails are open both ends and the sea runs right thru them, in one end and out the other. They simply accept the 5 year  life expectancy of those boats, and make zero attempt to maintain or extend their life.That is what give steel boats a bad name.How long would wooden boats have lasted with zero bottom paint?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :You could burn your feet on the deck on any boat in the tropics if it isn't painted white, no matter what the material.  A lot of boats try light cream, blue or grey decks but they often end up being too hot for bare feet.   Teak decks are probably the worst.   If metal boats are painted with non-skid paint on deck and insulated down below, heat normally isn't a problem.   The Dashew's use plain aluminum checker plate for non-skid and then wear shoes.  They seem to like the battleship look.   I don't think I would do this.  If I had a choice, I would have a thick skinned unpainted aluminum boat with Kiwigrip paint for non-skid where you walk or sit.  The aluminum boats I have been on with just paint on the non-skid areas have been fine.   On metal surfaces in the cockpit where you regularly touch or lean, I would use regular paint.  The Kiwigrip non-skid is easy to do, cheap, lasts for many years and is easy on the eyes in the sun.The people who build metal boats and don't insulate them (common in Aus and NZ) are crazy.   They are much  too hot in the summer and much too cool in the winter.   They are also noisy and rust much more inside if the paint isn't done properly.  They drip continually in cool weather.   I have seen quite a few that ended up scrapped due to corrosion.  An extra few thousand paid for a good paint job and good insulation would have done wonders.   I have seen total rust buckets and then had brokers tell me that it is normal......they say all metal boats are rusty inside.   What nonsense.   I tell them my boat is more than 25 years old without a spot of rust and they just look at me with a blank face.   Paul| 32657|32646|2015-06-19 12:14:06|brentswain38|Re: Work Before Sandblasting|Great idea! Good post!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :You can install life rails on one side of the deck. It will allow you to walk much safer on one side and pull cabin top from another side. I am pulling all my metal to a boat from one side only anyway.For protection from the sun and rain inside the boat, I put a top of 20x10 ft portable car port. It covers almost all deck (and opening) of 40 ft boat and allows to work comfortably inside - plenty of air and cool inside when 80-85F outside (it has white/tan plastic cover). It is easy to take plastic cover off or disassemble tubular frame if needed. Cost (of full carport with top, sides and ends) is about $200 new (available from Costco or Sam's Club, etc), you may find used one for $50. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Then I'll go back and install the longitudinal stringers, keel, trunk cabin top, and pilot house top, then do the deck detailing on top of the cabin tops. Then install the life rails.I considered installing the life-rails as soon as possible, but then I won't be able to pull the cabin tops up into position. the life rails would be in the way. Does anyone think the installed life-rails would be able to support the cabin tops being dragged over the top of them? Maybe with some temporary bracing?  I used 3/4" uprights with 1" rails. SCH 40.| 32658|32652|2015-06-19 12:16:19|brentswain38|Re: Making Mast Shoe/boot/ step thing|No one has had any problems with  corrosion, with an aluminium mast in a stainless boot , yet.Don't worry about it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I am planning on making a new mast shoe out of stainless, 11 gauge, to replace the weird bolt on thing that came with it.  I figured I'd just follow the plan for one out of brents book.  Since this would mean an aluminum mast slid into a stainless shoe, do the two need to be isolated from each other to prevent electrolysis? Would any rubber material work?  I am not talking about a mast step. Just to be clear. Talking about the thing between the mast step and the base of the mast. Thoughts? -Marlin| 32659|32638|2015-06-20 17:58:45|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot|It/s an economic argument and not peculiarly American('make 'em last as long as the installments').The Dutch bid it occasionally on steel barges, where the bottom would have perhaps a twenty year lifespan.You offset the maintainance and downtime against the replacement cost.Not something I would care to do with a 4mmhull,origami or otherwiseCheersAndy Aireyps Has anyone got any experience of fibreglass tubular masts| 32660|32635|2015-06-22 10:59:57|wild_explorer|Re: Cost Of 31 Footer|Marlin, did you decide what would you use for ballast? Cost?| 32661|32635|2015-06-23 11:00:20|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Cost Of 31 Footer| So, I've got a pretty severe case of "trigger finger" or "trigger digit". The marathon work days are going to slow to a more traditional 8-10 hour day, then I just have to stop and walk away. I awoke the other day to a hand that I had to massage and pry open. Doc said just to rest it in order to prevent a permanent condition. So now, I plan on working on the boat about 50 hours a week or maybe more just making small, easy things. I scored all of my ballast for free off of abandoned fiberglass boats and a wooden one. It is all lead. One boat was a Newport 27 and the other a J 24, and then a little more out of an old wooden boat. So I guess I saved a couple thousand dollars, which I made up for by spending that money on stainless instead.| 32662|32662|2015-06-24 18:18:42|ANDREW AIREY|Expandable foam|Can any one give me any hints,tips and materials to use.I'm thinking of using cavity wall insulation foam to fill up a space in a non boating application but any information very much appreciated it's to make a couple of bespoke tailors mannikins making an outer shell first with gaffer tape and then filling them upcheersAndy Airey| 32663|32662|2015-06-24 18:33:09|Steve Bennett|Re: Expandable foam|Gaffer tape is not likely to retain its shape once the expanding foam starts to put pressure on it, you may need something more rigid. You might look at gluing some foam blocks together and carving the shape of your mannikins. > On Jun 24, 2015, at 4:18 PM, ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > Can any one give me any hints,tips and materials to use.I'm thinking of using cavity wall insulation foam to fill up a space in a non boating application but any information very much appreciated it's to make a couple of bespoke tailors mannikins making an outer shell first with gaffer tape and then filling them up > cheers > Andy Airey > > | 32664|32662|2015-06-24 19:16:05|opuspaul|Re: Expandable foam|I agree, there is a lot of pressure behind the expansion.   If you can build from solid foam, I would do so.....The foam can continue to expand, long after you think it is done.  I had some icebox hatches get too large and eventually split their casing while in the tropics from the foam expanding.   This was several years after they had been poured.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Gaffer tape is not likely to retain its shape once the expanding foam starts to put pressure on it, you may need something more rigid. You might look at gluing some foam blocks together and carving the shape of your mannikins. > On Jun 24, 2015, at 4:18 PM, ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > Can any one give me any hints,tips and materials to use.I'm thinking of using cavity wall insulation foam to fill up a space in a non boating application but any information very much appreciated it's to make a couple of bespoke tailors mannikins making an outer shell first with gaffer tape and then filling them up > cheers > Andy Airey > > | 32665|32662|2015-06-25 08:51:29|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Expandable foam|Point taken.Not enthused about carving from solid although I was thinking about some sort of armature to fill up most of the space so solid foam would be fine for that.I could always reinforce the outside first with plaster bandages or there is a process using cloth which hardens up and can be used for making outdoor sculptures - this might be a thought for anyone who wants a figurehead for the boat.I'm going on a short course to find out about this shortly and will report back if it looks interesting.More practically it could be a way of making moulds for laying up fibreglass,if that isn't a dirty word on a site dedicated to steel boatscheersAndy AireyPs I may be getting the foam for free | 32666|32666|2015-06-27 14:50:53|igroenewald|Size of boat|Good day all, We are a group of businessmen in Mozambique. We struggle to get our products out of port due to poor service by the liners. We want to build a very small cargo vessel ( 150 feet) and since our travel distances are short (400 nm) we want to power her by sail with back-up 1000 hp diesel. Is this size possible in Origami building? Engineering, steel, welding etc are core competencies in our consortium. Regards, Christoph| 32667|32666|2015-06-27 14:55:21|northcanoe|Re: Size of boat|I know that Paul Liebenberg was building an origami hull of at least 54 feet, so I think that with proper engineering, you could also do a larger vessel, with increased scantlings to make up for the larger size.| 32668|32668|2015-06-28 13:45:09|smallboatvoyaguer|welding through mill scale/ weld prep| I've been working with non primed plate. I clean up the area where I am going to weld with the grinder, before I weld. I've noticed in some photos, some people aren't cleaning up before they weld, at all. With 6011, is it necessary to grind off the mill scale? Obviously, it can't hurt. But it does take a lot of time and fussing, and the welds I have done right through mill scale don't look any different than the ones where I've ground the mill scale off. With galvanized, I have the same question. Grind off the zinc first? Or weld right through? Thanks all, Marlin| 32669|32666|2015-06-28 13:49:46|theboilerflue|Re: Size of boat|That would be an amazing project. I can't really picture pulling together a 150ft x 30-40ft sheet of steel you pretty much have to pick up 1/3 of the sheet at either end as it comes together so you need a gantry hoist system in multible places to support it like Doug has in his big origami boat in Oklahoma but bigger and you'd have to weld 3-4 150ft sheets together to make up a sheet big enough for the half hull. One of the big advantages of doing it in this style is the the size of the metal for the hull plating is pushed to the max so to what a couple people can manipulate with a few simple tools, it saves a lot of time and trouble rather than building the hull from 20 or so 300 lbs sheets but once you get to a point where the plating is unmanagable I can see the advantages to the origami method disolving. Also the larger the boat and heavier the plate gets the less distortion matters or happens, another great advantage in the smaller builds but what's an inch or two of distortion over 150ft?| 32670|32668|2015-06-28 13:50:34|Matt Malone|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep| Marlin, A knotted cup brush on an angle grinder is fast for cleaning a not perfectly smooth surface.  Princess Auto sells them for $5 on sale, $10 normally.  I buy several when they are on sale. Do not weld with zinc on the surface, it produces toxic fumes.  Grind it away first. Matt "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" wrote:    I've been working with non primed plate. I clean up the area where I am going to weld with the grinder, before I weld. I've noticed in some photos, some people aren't cleaning up before they weld, at all.  With 6011, is it necessary to grind off the mill scale? Obviously, it can't hurt. But it does take a lot of time and fussing, and the welds I have done right through mill scale don't look any different than the ones where I've ground the mill scale off.  With galvanized, I have the same question. Grind off the zinc first? Or weld right through?  Thanks all,  Marlin | 32671|32666|2015-06-28 13:52:33|wild_explorer|Re: Size of boat|If I remember correctly, Paul is building 65 ft, Dough - 74 ft multi-chine origami.There is practical limit for origami boat length.  After it, it make little sense to do it using origami construction (it would be almost the same for welding length, difficulty of handling plates, extra set-up, lifting equipment, number of people required, fitting, etc). It looks like it is exponential function of boat's length and difficulty to make it.For cargo vessel 150 ft length, you may be better off using hybrid type of construction (something between origami and traditional) - bulkheads frames with 20-30 ft hull's plates wrapped around it. It will have round bilge instead of chine type  (for cargo vessel it is preferable to maximize carrying capacity). For this size of vessel, you will need bulkheads anyway, plus cargo bays reinforcements.You did not give enough information about what you have in mind (draft/displacement, possible hull design, type of possible cargo, number of cargo bays, etc.) If you are trying to make tall ship with steel hull, it will make difference as well.| 32672|32668|2015-06-28 14:04:36|theboilerflue|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I'm sue if you'd ask anyone building a nuclear plant they will tell you that you must clean up the weld area for inches away from the wled of all rust, dirt and mill scale. But I would just give it a good knocking with a chipping hammer and scape it down a bit to get off any loose scale but I'd just weld through most rusty bits, that's sort of why you use the 6011/6013 it tends to just blasts itself a nice hole down to clean metal then fills back up.| 32673|32668|2015-06-28 14:12:06|James Pronk|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|6011 is a deep penetrating electrode which is great on dirty material, rust, paint, mill scale. I've fixed a ton of manure spreaders, scrap the big chunks off and the rest burns off!| 32674|32668|2015-06-28 14:21:38|wild_explorer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|Use flap disk to clean area need to be welded. 36 or 40 grit (regular or jumbo) flap disk removes more metal and much faster than grinding disk. Welding clean steel gives you better welds and less problems with inclusions in the welds (less grinding later to fix welds). You may use specially designed "Grinding and cutting" disk for tight places and sharp angles joints.DO NOT weld through zinc/galvanized. It is especially important when welding galvanized steel. Need to clean about 1" strips (AROUND both sides of  welding area) on parts to be welded. Use 6011 at low (practically usable) current setting to avoid zinc melting and flowing into welding area (or into weld). It reduce zinc evaporation as well. Mixing zinc with filling, lowers weld strength. Use respirator rated for zinc fumes (or use Brent's method). Zinc on another side of the plate may flow or become flakes. If become flakes - brush it off.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I've been working with non primed plate. I clean up the area where I am going to weld with the grinder, before I weld. I've noticed in some photos, some people aren't cleaning up before they weld, at all. With 6011, is it necessary to grind off the mill scale? Obviously, it can't hurt. But it does take a lot of time and fussing, and the welds I have done right through mill scale don't look any different than the ones where I've ground the mill scale off. With galvanized, I have the same question. Grind off the zinc first? Or weld right through? Thanks all, Marlin| 32675|32668|2015-06-28 16:15:45|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep| I just came across this in my search for information. http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/articles/WeldingGalvanized.pdf"Welding of galvanized steel is done almost exactly the same way as welding of the bare steel of the same composition; the same welding processes, volts, amps, travel speed, etc. can be used with little modification when the switch is made from uncoated steel to galvanized steel -- unless the zinc coating is unusually thick. The difference between welding galvanized steel and welding uncoated steel is a result of the low vaporization temperature of the zinc coating. Zinc melts at about 900ËšF and vaporizes at about 1650ËšF. Since steel melts at approximately 2,750ËšF and the welding arc temperature is 15,000 to 20,000ËšF, the zinc that is near the weld does not stand a chance -- it's vaporized! By the time the weld pool freezes, the zinc is gone. This has two immediate consequences: • The vaporized zinc increases the volume of welding smoke and fumes. • The zinc at and near any welds is actually burned off by the heat of the arc, removing the protective zinc coating." I am using a respirator.  | 32676|32666|2015-06-28 17:32:24|wild_explorer|Re: Size of boat|That what may fit your needs:Windjammer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Windjammer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A windjammer is a type of large sailing ship, with an iron, or for the most part, steel hull, built to carry cargo in the nineteenth and early twentieth century.... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo   And this is in your length range. You may want to contact owner or builder for building plans.Elissa (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Elissa (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The tall ship Elissa is a three-masted barque. She is currently moored in Galveston, Texas, and is one of the oldest ships sailing today. View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :We want to build a very small cargo vessel ( 150 feet) and since our travel distances are short (400 nm) we want to power her by sail with back-up 1000 hp diesel. Is this size possible in Origami building? Engineering, steel, welding etc are core competencies in our consortium. Regards, Christoph| 32677|32668|2015-06-28 17:48:27|opuspaul|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I didn't know about the dangers of welding galvanized steel when I first started building my boat.   I spent several hours welding the galv toe rail one afternoon and then got a nose bleed that wouldn't quit that night along with a bad head ache.  Lesson learned.   Maybe it explains a few things now :).  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I just came across this in my search for information. http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/articles/WeldingGalvanized.pdf"Welding of galvanized steel is done almost exactly the same way as welding of the bare steel of the same composition; the same welding processes, volts, amps, travel speed, etc. can be used with little modification when the switch is made from uncoated steel to galvanized steel -- unless the zinc coating is unusually thick. The difference between welding galvanized steel and welding uncoated steel is a result of the low vaporization temperature of the zinc coating. Zinc melts at about 900ËšF and vaporizes at about 1650ËšF. Since steel melts at approximately 2,750ËšF and the welding arc temperature is 15,000 to 20,000ËšF, the zinc that is near the weld does not stand a chance -- it's vaporized! By the time the weld pool freezes, the zinc is gone. This has two immediate consequences: • The vaporized zinc increases the volume of welding smoke and fumes. • The zinc at and near any welds is actually burned off by the heat of the arc, removing the protective zinc coating." I am using a respirator.  | 32678|32668|2015-06-28 19:06:22|Matt Malone|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep| Interesting.That temperature of 15,000 to 20,000 F seemed high so I did a little research.   After all TIG welding uses a electrode and tungsten melts at 6,200F.   Well it seems my impression was wrong and those temperatures are quite possible in an arc.   https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1976_08_s222.pdfThe equation for a temperature estimate for an arc starts at 7640K = 13,300F, and increases with current.   The surface of the sun has a temperature, based on its colour, of only about 9,940F.   Still, if the arc plasma was supposed to have zinc in it, if this gas helped the weld, it would probably be part of the flux coating on 6011 rods.   I would still remove the galvanizing from anything that had to be strong.   If it is going to burn off anyway and no longer offers rust proofing, might as well make a neat job of it.   I welded some galvanized C-channel once.  I took the zinc off the welding surface, however on the outside of the channel it flared and produced a yellow ash.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:15:41 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep    I just came across this in my search for information. http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/articles/WeldingGalvanized.pdf"Welding of galvanized steel is done almost exactly the same way as welding of the bare steel of the same composition; the same welding processes, volts, amps, travel speed, etc. can be used with little modification when the switch is made from uncoated steel to galvanized steel -- unless the zinc coating is unusually thick. The difference between welding galvanized steel and welding uncoated steel is a result of the low vaporization temperature of the zinc coating. Zinc melts at about 900ËšF and vaporizes at about 1650ËšF. Since steel melts at approximately 2,750ËšF and the welding arc temperature is 15,000 to 20,000ËšF, the zinc that is near the weld does not stand a chance -- it's vaporized! By the time the weld pool freezes, the zinc is gone. This has two immediate consequences: • The vaporized zinc increases the volume of welding smoke and fumes. • The zinc at and near any welds is actually burned off by the heat of the arc, removing the protective zinc coating." I am using a respirator.   | 32679|32666|2015-06-28 19:37:41|wild_explorer|Re: Size of boat|Or this one (smaller steel hull and recent build - may have better documentation):Lady Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Lady Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Lady Washington is a ship name shared by at least four different small wooden merchant sailing vessels during two different time periods. The original saile... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That what may fit your needs:| 32680|32666|2015-06-28 21:27:20|lokate21|Re: Size of boat|I would suggest you be in contact with the ABS - American Bureau of Shipping. As a merchant vessel, you will have constraints that are not applicable to pleasure craft. The ABS is world-wide, they have an office in London, probably the one that is more suitable for you to access. You'll have to have your ship classified for better port access, etc. dj| 32681|32666|2015-06-29 03:03:22|Hannu Venermo|Re: Size of boat|The origami methods benefits are many, but the hull has little to do with this, overall. With Brents origami method the hull goes together fast, cheap and easy. Part of the reason many, many origami boats have been made fast, and for little cost, is by reducing "systems" to nil or near nil. By reducing fit and finish, and coatings, to nil or near nil. This is both good, and less good. For example, today, in the EU (Im in Spain), holding tanks for blackwater are obligatory. But.. Hull value is about 20% of value of a complete boat. Engines 20%, systems 30%, coatings 10%, rest 20%. Some systems are "nice to have". Many owners of large pleasure boats choose to spend a lot of money on electronics. Often 100-200.000$ on a 16-18 m boat. Air conditioning. Toys (tenders, yet skis, ..). Etc.. You will need an accredited survey for a commercial boat, approved plans, approved materials, tested construction. You will need commercial insurance, and without the above, will not be able to get it. The plans and inspections for commercial vessels are expensive. Contact your insurance company for details. If you want to proceed with the project, it is possible to cnc cut the steel, onsite. A small cnc plasma or laser is quite cheap, and will save vast amount of time and cost in work hours, and fitting of pieces as they will be accurate first time out. You can email me direct for details, if you want. On 27/06/2015 19:34, igroenewald@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Good day all, > > We are a group of businessmen in Mozambique. We struggle to get our > products out of port due to poor service by the liners. > We want to build a very small cargo vessel ( 150 feet) and since our > travel distances are short (400 nm) we want to power her by sail with > back-up 1000 hp diesel. > > Is this size possible in Origami building? > Engineering, steel, welding etc are core competencies in our consortium. > > Regards, > > Christoph -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32682|32668|2015-06-29 07:33:05|James Pronk|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|This is actually wrong. Your giving people misinformation. In industry galvanized steel is welded every day. The biggest problem is metal fume fever, use a respiratore! Welding at low amp setting reduces penetration, zinc will not mix with the weld material.James From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2015 6:19:32 PM   Use flap disk to clean area need to be welded. 36 or 40 grit (regular or jumbo) flap disk removes more metal and much faster than grinding disk. Welding clean steel gives you better welds and less problems with inclusions in the welds (less grinding later to fix welds). You may use specially designed "Grinding and cutting" disk for tight places and sharp angles joints.DO NOT weld through zinc/galvanized. It is especially important when welding galvanized steel. Need to clean about 1" strips (AROUND both sides of  welding area) on parts to be welded. Use 6011 at low (practically usable) current setting to avoid zinc melting and flowing into welding area (or into weld). It reduce zinc evaporation as well. Mixing zinc with filling, lowers weld strength. Use respirator rated for zinc fumes (or use Brent's method). Zinc on another side of the plate may flow or become flakes. If become flakes - brush it off.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I've been working with non primed plate. I clean up the area where I am going to weld with the grinder, before I weld. I've noticed in some photos, some people aren't cleaning up before they weld, at all. With 6011, is it necessary to grind off the mill scale? Obviously, it can't hurt. But it does take a lot of time and fussing, and the welds I have done right through mill scale don't look any different than the ones where I've ground the mill scale off. With galvanized, I have the same question. Grind off the zinc first? Or weld right through? Thanks all, Marlin | 32683|32668|2015-06-29 08:13:10|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep| I wear a miller half mask respirator, rated for lead, zinc, chrome, etc. The white, flaky shit is the stuff that's the worst for inhaling, and from what I understand too much of that and your in trouble. A local guy was welding galvanized culverts from the inside, no mask, and ended up with galvanic fever after one day. His teeth and hair fell out and he became bed ridden for a long time.  After long sessions I began to get that metal taste in my mouth, but no fever or flu symptoms.  I have begun to aim a fan at the area I am welding in addition to the half mask. They cost about $30, fit under most welding helmets, and the replacement filters are $12. My filters, under heavy use, last about 2 weeks.  Marlin   | 32684|32668|2015-06-29 10:37:35|wild_explorer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|Quick Source find: Welding | American Galvanizers Association Welding | American Galvanizers Association The American Galvanizers Association (AGA) is a non-profit trade association dedicated to serving the needs of after-fabrication galvanizers, fabricators, arch... View on www.galvanizeit.org Preview by Yahoo  Quote:Welding galvanized steel specifications are derived from the American Welding Society’s (AWS) specification D-19.0, Welding Zinc Coated Steel. This specification calls for welds to be made on steel free of zinc to prevent strength reduction through zinc inclusion in the weld itself. The zinc coating should be removed at least one to four inches from either side of the intended weld zone and on both sides of the steel part. Grinding is the most effective means of removing the galvanized coating. Once the weld is completed, the area of the weld can be repaired using procedures described in ASTM A780 to complete the corrosion protection on all surfaces.End of Quote.I was unable quickly to find file (and source) with recommendation about welding with low possible practical current settings, but I will try again ;). Agree on penetration remark, that why it says "lowest PRACTICAL settings". 6011 is deep penetrating rod by design.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This is actually wrong. Your giving people misinformation. In industry galvanized steel is welded every day. The biggest problem is metal fume fever, use a respiratore! Welding at low amp setting reduces penetration, zinc will not mix with the weld material.James | 32685|32668|2015-06-29 14:54:27|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|A good ol' pissing match.I'm not looking for technical data and what an association says. I'm looking for answers from someone who has done this on their boat, how they did it, and how it held up. I have no problem grinding the edges to make them free of zinc, it's just that some of the parts have been tacked in place now, without grinding off the zinc at the edges, and are really difficult to get at in order to clean up. I'm sure the welding association has nothing good to say about welding through millscale, paint, or rust,yet here we have  no one on this forum arguing against that... so far. I'll probably just clean off as much  of  the zinc as I can and do my best. No way I'm taking more things off to re-do them, already done that enough. Seems to me that if a 6011 can burn through millscale, oil, and rust, without there being a big problem with inclusions etc, then why wouldn't the super thin, electro-coated, zinc react the same way?| 32686|32686|2015-06-29 15:34:42|Alex Bar|Extra plate and chines.|Becouse of the smaller size of a plate, to make the half shall it is necessary to weld some extra plate to the bottom of it. The weld is done above the sheet, when do you weld the below seem? Before or after pulling the half shell?Do you weld the outside chines before or after pulling the two half shells togheter?ThanksAlex| 32687|32668|2015-06-29 15:42:52|brentswain38|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I wouldn't worry about it . None of the fabricating shops I have worked in worried about it.| 32688|32666|2015-06-29 15:45:37|brentswain38|Re: Size of boat|Yes it could be built using origami n methods, altho in that size range you would have to add a lot of stiffening after the shell was together. Origami would still save you a lot of time and expense.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Good day all, We are a group of businessmen in Mozambique. We struggle to get our products out of port due to poor service by the liners. We want to build a very small cargo vessel ( 150 feet) and since our travel distances are short (400 nm) we want to power her by sail with back-up 1000 hp diesel. Is this size possible in Origami building? Engineering, steel, welding etc are core competencies in our consortium. Regards, Christoph| 32689|32668|2015-06-29 17:48:39|opuspaul|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I must agree with James on this one.  I have welded straight through galvanizing many, many times.  With 6011 it is easy and I never bother grinding it off.  I find a higher heat setting helps burn through the zinc and get the puddle going but it is not really a problem, even when I use 6013.   I just hit the weld with a knotted wire brush cup on an angle grinder when I am done.  Removing galvanizing 1 to 4 inches back from a weld would be pretty stupid.   The zinc normally only burns back about 1/2 and inch and you want to keep the zinc as intact as possible.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This is actually wrong. Your giving people misinformation. In industry galvanized steel is welded every day. The biggest problem is metal fume fever, use a respiratore! Welding at low amp setting reduces penetration, zinc will not mix with the weld material.James From: williswildest@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2015 6:19:32 PM  Use flap disk to clean area need to be welded. 36 or 40 grit (regular or jumbo) flap disk removes more metal and much faster than grinding disk. Welding clean steel gives you better welds and less problems with inclusions in the welds (less grinding later to fix welds). You may use specially designed "Grinding and cutting" disk for tight places and sharp angles joints.DO NOT weld through zinc/galvanized. It is especially important when welding galvanized steel. Need to clean about 1" strips (AROUND both sides of  welding area) on parts to be welded. Use 6011 at low (practically usable) current setting to avoid zinc melting and flowing into welding area (or into weld). It reduce zinc evaporation as well. Mixing zinc with filling, lowers weld strength. Use respirator rated for zinc fumes (or use Brent's method). Zinc on another side of the plate may flow or become flakes. If become flakes - brush it off.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I've been working with non primed plate. I clean up the area where I am going to weld with the grinder, before I weld. I've noticed in some photos, some people aren't cleaning up before they weld, at all. With 6011, is it necessary to grind off the mill scale? Obviously, it can't hurt. But it does take a lot of time and fussing, and the welds I have done right through mill scale don't look any different than the ones where I've ground the mill scale off. With galvanized, I have the same question. Grind off the zinc first? Or weld right through? Thanks all, Marlin| 32690|32668|2015-06-29 18:22:10|wild_explorer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|It has nothing to do with pissing match ;)I just provided source of reliable information from AWS - which is de-facto US Welding Standard. All welding shops doing welding business have to follow it. We (US and CA backyard boat builders) are lucky to be able to build boats by ourselves. In many countries you may not be able to do it at all.You can do whatever you want building your boat - its your project and your life. It is OK. Nobody expect you to re-do something (I cut some corners as well). You even could tack weld a boat and go sailing (it might be even stronger than old wooden boat and even might have less leaks). Your life - your choice. Brent even has tips how to weld galvanized steel without respirator - and it works.What is not OK, is to disregard information from official source (AWS), which gives recommendations based on research of many failures of welded structures and giving recommendations how to avoid it. Knowledge is power, and it does not hurt to provide extra reliable information in this group.  If someone knows recommended way how to do it, but willingly choose to do it different way - it his/her responsibility.Now - back to practical boat building. I have foot-well made from 11ga galvanized formed sheet. I did not have problems to tack weld primed 11ga deck to it with 1/8" 6011 and DC welder (which is not right - I should use 6010 with DC welder instead, but 6011 works with DC and AC). However, when doing final welds, I had to crank up current and was burning holes through. Even reverse polarity for less penetration did not help. I had to switch to 3/32 7018 to lower current and avoid burning holes in 11 ga steel. In places where zinc was still on plate, it was very difficult to run welding bed (90 deg angle overhead). Weld was tending to slide to clean metal. One solution was to point electrode forward and burn zinc with arc before welding pool reached that point. I had to re-grind and re-do some welds. Now, when another side of the joint, I need to weld, got free from zinc (which become white ash from heat) it would be easier to weld.P.S. Unless I find reliable information link for welding galvanized sheet with low practical electrode current, you may consider that information as unreliable as well ;))---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A good ol' pissing match.I'm not looking for technical data and what an association says. I'm looking for answers from someone who has done this on their boat, how they did it, and how it held up. I have no problem grinding the edges to make them free of zinc, it's just that some of the parts have been tacked in place now, without grinding off the zinc at the edges, and are really difficult to get at in order to clean up. I'm sure the welding association has nothing good to say about welding through millscale, paint, or rust,yet here we have  no one on this forum arguing against that... so far. I'll probably just clean off as much  of  the zinc as I can and do my best. No way I'm taking more things off to re-do them, already done that enough.| 32691|32666|2015-06-29 19:29:18|brentswain38|Re: Size of boat|On sailboats we use the longitudinal  curve of the hull for stiffness. Most small freighters have long, flat topsides, so you would need some transverse framing in them.  I can see making up the bottom, then the flat parts of the topsides separately , then putting them together, after they have had all the longitudinals and transverse parts welded on, doing all that work on the flat, saving a huge amount of time and money.  Then you would pull the bow and stern in origami style, then put the stiffeners in. The decks could be built upside down, on the ground, and most of  the  overhead welding eliminated that way . Then sections of it would  be lifted in place with a crane , and installed in the hull . We did barges that way back in the 70s.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes it could be built using origami n methods, altho in that size range you would have to add a lot of stiffening after the shell was together. Origami would still save you a lot of time and expense.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Good day all, We are a group of businessmen in Mozambique. We struggle to get our products out of port due to poor service by the liners. We want to build a very small cargo vessel ( 150 feet) and since our travel distances are short (400 nm) we want to power her by sail with back-up 1000 hp diesel. Is this size possible in Origami building? Engineering, steel, welding etc are core competencies in our consortium. Regards, Christoph| 32692|32668|2015-06-29 19:31:34|brentswain38|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I once got zinc poisoning from welding a lot of zinc. It was alike a mild flu,  coughing up firm snot for a few days . Nothing serious, but could have been  easily avoided by staying downwind of the weld, while welding.| 32693|32668|2015-06-29 19:33:28|brentswain38|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I hooked up the mast to 24 feet of corrugated  plastic sump drain hose from the hardware store, for about $7. That way I was breathing  air from 24 feet away , far easier than sucking it thru any filtre I have ever used.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I wear a miller half mask respirator, rated for lead, zinc, chrome, etc. The white, flaky shit is the stuff that's the worst for inhaling, and from what I understand too much of that and your in trouble. A local guy was welding galvanized culverts from the inside, no mask, and ended up with galvanic fever after one day. His teeth and hair fell out and he became bed ridden for a long time.  After long sessions I began to get that metal taste in my mouth, but no fever or flu symptoms.  I have begun to aim a fan at the area I am welding in addition to the half mask. They cost about $30, fit under most welding helmets, and the replacement filters are $12. My filters, under heavy use, last about 2 weeks.  Marlin   | 32694|32666|2015-06-29 19:36:15|brentswain38|Re: Size of boat|ABS has some good ideas, but  some of their recommendations are total bullshit.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would suggest you be in contact with the ABS - American Bureau of Shipping. As a merchant vessel, you will have constraints that are not applicable to pleasure craft. The ABS is world-wide, they have an office in London, probably the one that is more suitable for you to access. You'll have to have your ship classified for better port access, etc. dj| 32695|32668|2015-06-29 21:44:11|wild_explorer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|Paul, I suspect that main confusion is that what we are talking about. Somehow, it stuck in many peoples mind that we are talking only about 11 and 10 gauge galvanized sheets welded with 6011 electrode.AWS made GENERAL rule for most thicknesses and welding processes for heavily galvanized materials. If you follow it, you cannot screw it up too badly. I guess, that 1000A could burn zinc 4" from the edge ;)Marlin is right by pointing out that some 10 & 11ga steel might be only zinc electroplated. It would require much less effort to burn through that coating with 6011 electrode.I was welding 4x4x1/4" heavily galvanized angle, and I had very hard time to burn through that coating with 1/8" 6011 electrode @ recommended current (about 90-95A DC). You can actually see, that the arc is different (jumpy with very bright color) when you burning through zinc. I ended up grinding zinc around the area I was need to weld. It was MUCH easier to weld after it ;). I am using cold galvanizing primer on welds/joints anyway after welding - not a big problem. So, no reason to worry about extra 1/2-1" of zinc removed.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Removing galvanizing 1 to 4 inches back from a weld would be pretty stupid.   The zinc normally only burns back about 1/2 and inch and you want to keep the zinc as intact as possible.   Paul| 32696|32668|2015-06-30 13:30:20|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep| So this is what I am seeing now. Welding with out grinding the zinc off. With the electro plated galv plate I can weld through it with a little more amperage. Not much more. There is not a huge amount of fumes, the zinc appears to burn off quickly, and when I grind the weld down afterwards, like all the way into the weld, I can see no porosity, no inclusions, nothing alarming. Just looks to be a good clean weld. While welding, the zinc seems to just burn right off. With the flatbar I have, which is the classic hot dipped, thick coating of zinc, things are much different. I can barely see the weld pool through the fumes. There is a lot of spatter. The arc is blue and jumps all over the place until it penetrates the zinc. The welding is slow and messy. After welding, the weld looks really bad. A light tap with the hammer knocks the piece loose. The inside of the weld looks dirty. While welding, the zinc flows right into the weld pool. So, I think welding through hot dipped is a terrible idea. Welding through electro plated seems to be just fine with the 6011 3/32" rod on 11 gauge plate. I tried to use 1/8" 6011's, and it was a crap shoot. Too much heat, I believe. I will still be cleaning up the edges as best I can on the electro plate, but not up to four inches. Maybe an inch or even less. Cleaning up the hot dipped is obviously absolutely necessary. | 32697|32668|2015-06-30 19:49:32|garyhlucas|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep| Electro-Galv is 0.0005 to 0.001” thick.  Hot dip is 0.010” thick and usually much thicker on the corners due to the way the hot zinc beads up at a sharp corner. Take note, if you intend to hot dip galvanize parts for your boat you must make sure you have really good penetration. If you don’t the hot dip process will weaken the welds to the point where they fail very easily.  I had had to scrap a few thousand parts because of this problem in the past.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep     So this is what I am seeing now.   Welding with out grinding the zinc off.   With the electro plated galv plate I can weld through it with a little more amperage. Not much more. There is not a huge amount of fumes, the zinc appears to burn off quickly, and when I grind the weld down afterwards, like all the way into the weld, I can see no porosity, no inclusions, nothing alarming. Just looks to be a good clean weld. While welding, the zinc seems to just burn right off.   With the flatbar I have, which is the classic hot dipped, thick coating of zinc, things are much different. I can barely see the weld pool through the fumes. There is a lot of spatter. The arc is blue and jumps all over the place until it penetrates the zinc. The welding is slow and messy. After welding, the weld looks really bad. A light tap with the hammer knocks the piece loose. The inside of the weld looks dirty. While welding, the zinc flows right into the weld pool.   So, I think welding through hot dipped is a terrible idea.   Welding through electro plated seems to be just fine with the 6011 3/32" rod on 11 gauge plate. I tried to use 1/8" 6011's, and it was a crap shoot. Too much heat, I believe.   I will still be cleaning up the edges as best I can on the electro plate, but not up to four inches. Maybe an inch or even less. Cleaning up the hot dipped is obviously absolutely necessary. | 32698|32668|2015-06-30 20:36:56|brentswain38|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|My bulwarks were hot dipped galv pipe, and I had no problem with them, in the last 31 years. Electro galv pipe there would be a big mistake, as it would  offer very little protection, and would be a maintenance nightmare from chipping  paint, and drooling rust. For your longitudinals , grinding zinc back a quarter inch would be plenty.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Electro-Galv is 0.0005 to 0.001” thick.  Hot dip is 0.010” thick and usually much thicker on the corners due to the way the hot zinc beads up at a sharp corner. Take note, if you intend to hot dip galvanize parts for your boat you must make sure you have really good penetration. If you don’t the hot dip process will weaken the welds to the point where they fail very easily.  I had had to scrap a few thousand parts because of this problem in the past. Gary H. Lucas From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:30 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep  So this is what I am seeing now. Welding with out grinding the zinc off. With the electro plated galv plate I can weld through it with a little more amperage. Not much more. There is not a huge amount of fumes, the zinc appears to burn off quickly, and when I grind the weld down afterwards, like all the way into the weld, I can see no porosity, no inclusions, nothing alarming. Just looks to be a good clean weld. While welding, the zinc seems to just burn right off. With the flatbar I have, which is the classic hot dipped, thick coating of zinc, things are much different. I can barely see the weld pool through the fumes. There is a lot of spatter. The arc is blue and jumps all over the place until it penetrates the zinc. The welding is slow and messy. After welding, the weld looks really bad. A light tap with the hammer knocks the piece loose. The inside of the weld looks dirty. While welding, the zinc flows right into the weld pool. So, I think welding through hot dipped is a terrible idea. Welding through electro plated seems to be just fine with the 6011 3/32" rod on 11 gauge plate. I tried to use 1/8" 6011's, and it was a crap shoot. Too much heat, I believe. I will still be cleaning up the edges as best I can on the electro plate, but not up to four inches. Maybe an inch or even less. Cleaning up the hot dipped is obviously absolutely necessary.| 32699|32668|2015-07-01 11:23:29|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|So are you saying i should not have used electro plated galv plates for my decks and cabin sides?!| 32700|32668|2015-07-01 12:33:37|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I was planning on giving all of the galv decks and cabin sides a coat of zinga anyway, for extra protection.   | 32701|32701|2015-07-01 12:37:04|smallboatvoyaguer|Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead| Just curious, Does anyone see any reason why it wouldn't be a good idea to install the pilothouse aft bulkhead before installing the cabin tops, opposed to the way it is done in Brents book and the DVD?  I'd like to have as much material on the boat as possible, before I sandblast.  Thanks, Marlin| 32702|32668|2015-07-01 14:45:00|wild_explorer|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|I do not think that you have electroplated steel. Usually it done on electrical conduits for indoor use. More likely something else. Try to find what steel exactly (ASTM) you got (check sell/landing papers).I have ASTM A653 (for foot well, cabin sides, PH sides) and even that one has many different coating's thicknesses variations.http://www.galvinfo.com/ginotes/GalvInfoNote_1_1.pdfhttp://www.steelmillsoftheworld.com/activities/datacenter/g_note1.pdfYou always can sandblast and paint it later if you are not happy with it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So are you saying i should not have used electro plated galv plates for my decks and cabin sides?! | 32703|32701|2015-07-01 14:59:54|wild_explorer|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead|I am planning to install fore and aft steel watertight bulkheads before putting superstructure on. It will stabilize deck (it still flexes even with 3/16x1" FB supports deck-to-hull_stringers every 4 feet) and will fix the hull as well. It would be easier to work on bulkheads without superstructure. I plan to put pilothouse top as late as possible - to allow all materials and engine to be lowered through that opening (instead of through PH door).Only one reason comes to mind to install tops ASAP - if you expect raining season to begin. In this case, it would be better to put the tops on.| 32704|32704|2015-07-02 01:38:16|Alex Bar|Extra plates and chines.|I'm trying to understand how the origami method is working and how efficient it is. Sorry, I understand that my questions could be obvious for all of you...Becouse of the smaller size of a plate, to make the half shall it is necessary to weld some extra plate to the bottom of it. The weld is done above the sheet, when do you weld the below seem? Before or after pulling the half shell?Do you weld the outside chines before or after pulling the two half shells togheter?ThanksAlex| 32705|32638|2015-07-02 05:02:00|jeagle999|Re: Aluminum 31 Foot| Do you have any e-mail address for this guy? Is there anybody elsewhere that has built in Aluminium? I am not tied to the west coast. | 32706|32706|2015-07-02 14:12:11|donalphilby|An appropriate backup tender|Just ran across a wonderful backup tender for an origami boat. https://www.thegrommet.com/oru-kayakOrigami Kayak by Oru Origami Kayak by Oru This origami kayak, discovered by The Grommet, folds into itself without tools, making kayaking accessible to those who can't store a full-sized kayak. View on www.thegrommet.com Preview by Yahoo | 32707|32704|2015-07-04 07:58:44|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Extra plates and chines.|Yes, it is necessary to weld extra plate to the bottom of the plate. You have to get really good penetration from one side because you can't lift the plate to get to the other side. Beveling the edge of the seam helps a lot to aid in getting dood penetration, and using the 6011 rod. It helps too, to tack pieces of scrap across the butt seam in order to prevent distortion while welding the pieces together. This helps immensly with any butt seam welding. I would say it is absolutely necessary for any butt seam.Kim's Boat - TheBoat Kim's Boat - TheBoat The pictorial story of the construction of a "Swain 26" - a 26ft twin... View on theboat.smugmug.com Preview by Yahoo   This guy Kim did a really good job documenting, and I have found his website to be very helpful. The outside seams are welded after the plates are bent into half hulls and raised off the ground.  If you build a 31, 36, or 40 footer I think they all use 3/16" plate for the hull, and using a 5/32" welding rod for the center seam and chines made things a lot more solid, for me. Versus using an 1/8" rod. | 32708|32708|2015-07-04 08:02:51|smallboatvoyaguer|Using Zinga Over galvanized| I emailed the Zinga folks about applying Zinga over previously galvanized material. This is what they said: "Hi Marlin – Whatever metal you are applying Zinga onto, the Zinga must be in direct contact with the metal to provide cathodic protection.  I got the following answer from headquarters for you in regards to the materials you questioned:  The zinc plating is only 12 - 15µm thick, and so cannot be blast-cleaned. It can, however, easily be treated with T-Wash (Mordant Solution) and then coated with Zinga. The T-Wash is brushed onto the degreased zinc surface and left for three minutes. The zinc turns black during this time, and is then thoroughly rinsed off with fresh water. Then the Zinga is applied by brush or spray. Simple. We have done this hundreds of times on small articles."

My boat isn't exactly a small article.  Is Mordent T-solution a bad idea? It sounds like an acid etch. Brent's method with the TSP, Vinegar, water, sounds more effective and thorough to me, thoughts? Experiences? Starting to think maybe I should just blast the thin galv plating right off the steel and go from there. -Marlin| 32709|32701|2015-07-04 11:51:22|theboilerflue|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead|Aft pilothouse bulkhead what's that? do you mean the engine beds?| 32710|32704|2015-07-04 11:57:57|theboilerflue|Re: Extra plates and chines.|Yes in order to fill in the belly of the boat for a short section that needs to be wider than 8ft the bottom corners are cut off the plate and welded on to extend that section in between the keels.The hull is tacked together on the inside as it's pulled together then once it's in shape and half hulls are together the welds are filled in inside and outside.| 32711|32701|2015-07-04 19:44:24|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead| That's what Alex Christie calls the back of the pilothouse in the video. I had second thoughts about calling it that after I posted. Has that guy even built a boat? His comments in the video are confusing and do not match dimensions and measurements in the plans or book.  The back of the pilothouse is what I am talking about, that's all.  I would assume I could just install it and cut the proper camber, then install the hatch coaming and cupola after the top goes on.| 32712|32708|2015-07-05 18:32:31|brentswain38|Re: Using Zinga Over galvanized|I think vinegar, tsp, and water will do the trick for you. I did that to my hot dipped galvanized deck plates 31 years ago, and no problem yet.| 32713|32701|2015-07-05 18:34:54|brentswain38|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead|I see no problem with that. Tack angle braces across it , to keep it straight when you put the cabin top on..---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Just curious, Does anyone see any reason why it wouldn't be a good idea to install the pilothouse aft bulkhead before installing the cabin tops, opposed to the way it is done in Brents book and the DVD?  I'd like to have as much material on the boat as possible, before I sandblast.  Thanks, Marlin| 32714|32668|2015-07-05 18:39:02|brentswain38|Re: welding through mill scale/ weld prep|\You can recognize hot dipped galvanizing, by the zinc crystal pattern on it.Blasting to bare steel would be  a big mistake, making  for a lot of maintenance problems later on. It is a place where paint is often chipped. Galvanizing gives you  far more time to repaint it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I do not think that you have electroplated steel. Usually it done on electrical conduits for indoor use. More likely something else. Try to find what steel exactly (ASTM) you got (check sell/landing papers).I have ASTM A653 (for foot well, cabin sides, PH sides) and even that one has many different coating's thicknesses variations.http://www.galvinfo.com/ginotes/GalvInfoNote_1_1.pdfhttp://www.steelmillsoftheworld.com/activities/datacenter/g_note1.pdfYou always can sandblast and paint it later if you are not happy with it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So are you saying i should not have used electro plated galv plates for my decks and cabin sides?! | 32715|32701|2015-07-05 18:42:07|brentswain38|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Pipes from cabin sides to the chines make a very solid deck. The extension of such cabin sides to the foredeck greatly stiffen the back edge of the fore deck. They are like longitudinal beams, supported by pipes from the chines. I am planning to install fore and aft steel watertight bulkheads before putting superstructure on. It will stabilize deck (it still flexes even with 3/16x1" FB supports deck-to-hull_stringers every 4 feet) and will fix the hull as well. It would be easier to work on bulkheads without superstructure. I plan to put pilothouse top as late as possible - to allow all materials and engine to be lowered through that opening (instead of through PH door).Only one reason comes to mind to install tops ASAP - if you expect raining season to begin. In this case, it would be better to put the tops on.| 32716|32706|2015-07-05 18:59:01|brentswain38|Re: An appropriate backup tender|Quite ingenious.Friends  have been surprised at the toughness of relatively cheap inflatable kayaks, as well.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Just ran across a wonderful backup tender for an origami boat. https://www.thegrommet.com/oru-kayakOrigami Kayak by Oru Origami Kayak by Oru This origami kayak, discovered by The Grommet, folds into itself without tools, making kayaking accessible to those who can't store a full-sized kayak. View on www.thegrommet.com Preview by Yahoo | 32717|32704|2015-07-05 19:01:33|brentswain38|Re: Extra plates and chines.|Some have flipped each half onto the topside portion, to make the bottom seam easier to weld, and grind flush, before pulling the centreline seam together.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, it is necessary to weld extra plate to the bottom of the plate. You have to get really good penetration from one side because you can't lift the plate to get to the other side. Beveling the edge of the seam helps a lot to aid in getting dood penetration, and using the 6011 rod. It helps too, to tack pieces of scrap across the butt seam in order to prevent distortion while welding the pieces together. This helps immensly with any butt seam welding. I would say it is absolutely necessary for any butt seam.Kim's Boat - TheBoat Kim's Boat - TheBoat The pictorial story of the construction of a "Swain 26" - a 26ft twin... View on theboat.smugmug.com Preview by Yahoo   This guy Kim did a really good job documenting, and I have found his website to be very helpful. The outside seams are welded after the plates are bent into half hulls and raised off the ground.  If you build a 31, 36, or 40 footer I think they all use 3/16" plate for the hull, and using a 5/32" welding rod for the center seam and chines made things a lot more solid, for me. Versus using an 1/8" rod. | 32718|32701|2015-07-05 19:03:25|brentswain38|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I would assume I could just install it and cut the proper camber, then install the hatch coaming and cupola after the top goes on.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Cant see why not.| 32719|32701|2015-07-06 16:47:05|brentswain38|Re: Installing pilothouse aft bulkhead|Yes that would work. No problem---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I would assume I could just install it and cut the proper camber, then install the hatch coaming and cupola after the top goes on.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Cant see why not.| 32720|32704|2015-07-07 16:34:17|Alex Bar|Re: Extra plates and chines.|Looking at some picture I can notice that the welded points where to fix the comealongs for pulling the half shall are exactly on the extra plate welded to the main. I wonder if only one side weld is strong enough for the pulling tensions or if it's better to capsize the entire sheet (before pulling) for the other side weld as Brent says. What is best?Alex2015-07-04 17:57 GMT+02:00 haidan@... [origamiboats] :   Yes in order to fill in the belly of the boat for a short section that needs to be wider than 8ft the bottom corners are cut off the plate and welded on to extend that section in between the keels.The hull is tacked together on the inside as it's pulled together then once it's in shape and half hulls are together the welds are filled in inside and outside. | 32721|32704|2015-07-07 17:45:28|brentswain38|Re: Extra plates and chines.|No problem. I try to get a 45 degree bevel on that edge, so I get full penetration from the top ,making it plenty strong enough. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Looking at some picture I can notice that the welded points where to fix the comealongs for pulling the half shall are exactly on the extra plate welded to the main. I wonder if only one side weld is strong enough for the pulling tensions or if it's better to capsize the entire sheet (before pulling) for the other side weld as Brent says. What is best?Alex2015-07-04 17:57 GMT+02:00 haidan@... [origamiboats] :  Yes in order to fill in the belly of the boat for a short section that needs to be wider than 8ft the bottom corners are cut off the plate and welded on to extend that section in between the keels.The hull is tacked together on the inside as it's pulled together then once it's in shape and half hulls are together the welds are filled in inside and outside.| 32722|32722|2015-07-07 18:05:27|smallboatvoyaguer|Passes| So, How many passes are people doing on the centerline, around the skeg, and around the keel? Just one on each side? Multiples? Anyone "capping" their 6011 with a 7024?| 32723|32722|2015-07-08 01:31:28|Aaron|Re: Passes|I used two to three passes but it will also depend on how good the fit is. My thought on the center seam was to weld the underside (3 passes 6010) first and back grind from the inside of the boat  1 pass or as needed with 7018. If you blow through then weld from the top for easy access everyone has there own preference. I used 6010 and 7018 due to working in the oilfield and extra left over rod from jobs was cheap. I used three passed on the skeg my boat is a BS36 I did all full penetration welds. Brent has the fastest and most proven method with 6010 / 6011 and 7024 on the deck plates. Aaron  From: "musicasrevolution@... 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I'm leaving the cabin tops and keel slot open for ventilation while blasting. My plan is to blast and prime all of that, and then blast and prime all my other material flat on the ground. Then I can cut out engine beds, skeg webs, mast arch, etc. from primed plate and weld it in. That way I won't have to blast and clean around all those little nooks and cranny's. I've been searching through the archives here, and I came across this, posted by Brent:"My rudder was made of hot galv plate . It kept shedding paint in sheets til the zinc was all gone. Zinc primer was les problematic , but when I finally sand blast I wont use zinc below the waterline . If your hull has zinc primer on it, it aint worth blasting off, initially." Brent, are you saying (or anyone else) that if one has the choice (which I do) to NOT use a zinc rich primer below the waterline, on the outside of the hull?  I'm doing my calculations on how much primer to buy. Right now, I am thinking I'll use Zinga, if any one has any other recommendations, I am all ears. Thanks! Marlin| 32725|32724|2015-07-09 18:04:32|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Priming Soon|I am also thinking I will add another coat of zinc primer over my already galvanized deck and cabin sides. Is there such a thing as having too much zinc coating under the epoxy tar?| 32726|32724|2015-07-09 18:33:52|Aaron|Re: Priming Soon|Follow the coating manufacture's recommended procedure Some coatings do  not high build very well.  From: "musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2015 2:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Priming Soon   I am also thinking I will add another coat of zinc primer over my already galvanized deck and cabin sides. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2129209386 #ygrps-yiv-2129209386yiv6246345143 #ygrps-yiv-2129209386yiv6246345143ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2129209386 #ygrps-yiv-2129209386yiv6246345143 #ygrps-yiv-2129209386yiv6246345143ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2129209386 | 32727|32704|2015-07-13 11:04:00|Alex Bar|Re: Extra plates and chines.|Why don't you leave a small gap between the main sheet and the extra plate for full penetration?Alex2015-07-07 23:45 GMT+02:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   No problem. I try to get a 45 degree bevel on that edge, so I get full penetration from the top ,making it plenty strong enough. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Looking at some picture I can notice that the welded points where to fix the comealongs for pulling the half shall are exactly on the extra plate welded to the main. I wonder if only one side weld is strong enough for the pulling tensions or if it's better to capsize the entire sheet (before pulling) for the other side weld as Brent says. What is best?Alex2015-07-04 17:57 GMT+02:00 haidan@... [origamiboats] :  Yes in order to fill in the belly of the boat for a short section that needs to be wider than 8ft the bottom corners are cut off the plate and welded on to extend that section in between the keels.The hull is tacked together on the inside as it's pulled together then once it's in shape and half hulls are together the welds are filled in inside and outside. | 32728|32724|2015-07-13 16:20:54|brentswain38|Re: Priming Soon|I have the original zinc down there, which came on the plate afetr I ordered it wheelabraded.Had a lot of tiny bubbles in the paint , originally. If I sand blast I don't think I will bother with zinc below the waterline. Welded on zincs protect it adequately.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I've almost gotten to the point where I am going to prime this beast. My hull/ transom/ decks/ anchor well/ cockpit/ cabin sides are all together and I am in the process of doing all the full welds. I'm leaving the cabin tops and keel slot open for ventilation while blasting. My plan is to blast and prime all of that, and then blast and prime all my other material flat on the ground. Then I can cut out engine beds, skeg webs, mast arch, etc. from primed plate and weld it in. That way I won't have to blast and clean around all those little nooks and cranny's. I've been searching through the archives here, and I came across this, posted by Brent:"My rudder was made of hot galv plate . It kept shedding paint in sheets til the zinc was all gone. Zinc primer was les problematic , but when I finally sand blast I wont use zinc below the waterline . If your hull has zinc primer on it, it aint worth blasting off, initially." Brent, are you saying (or anyone else) that if one has the choice (which I do) to NOT use a zinc rich primer below the waterline, on the outside of the hull?  I'm doing my calculations on how much primer to buy. Right now, I am thinking I'll use Zinga, if any one has any other recommendations, I am all ears. Thanks! Marlin| 32729|32724|2015-07-13 16:26:56|brentswain38|Re: Priming Soon|As long as it gets adequate drying time between coats, it should be no problem. A second coat is a good idea. For those taking much longer, a second coat before you lose the primer,  can help avoid having to sand blast later.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am also thinking I will add another coat of zinc primer over my already galvanized deck and cabin sides. Is there such a thing as having too much zinc coating under the epoxy tar?| 32730|32704|2015-07-13 16:29:46|brentswain38|Re: Extra plates and chines.|When you do that make sure you grind all the slag out before putting the outside weld on. A bevel on the inside lets you put the biggest weld inside, minimizing overhead  grinding and distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why don't you leave a small gap between the main sheet and the extra plate for full penetration?Alex2015-07-07 23:45 GMT+02:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  No problem. I try to get a 45 degree bevel on that edge, so I get full penetration from the top ,making it plenty strong enough. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Looking at some picture I can notice that the welded points where to fix the comealongs for pulling the half shall are exactly on the extra plate welded to the main. I wonder if only one side weld is strong enough for the pulling tensions or if it's better to capsize the entire sheet (before pulling) for the other side weld as Brent says. What is best?Alex2015-07-04 17:57 GMT+02:00 haidan@... [origamiboats] :  Yes in order to fill in the belly of the boat for a short section that needs to be wider than 8ft the bottom corners are cut off the plate and welded on to extend that section in between the keels.The hull is tacked together on the inside as it's pulled together then once it's in shape and half hulls are together the welds are filled in inside and outside.| 32731|32722|2015-07-13 16:45:10|brentswain38|Re: Passes|I usually do one big pass with 1/8th inch 7024, on the cenreline, chines  and the top of the keels. A second pass of 6011 is probably a good idea on the skeg, altho 5/32  6011 puts a lot of metal on.Capping 6011 with 7024 works well on the hull, but on decks it would cause distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So, How many passes are people doing on the centerline, around the skeg, and around the keel? Just one on each side? Multiples? Anyone "capping" their 6011 with a 7024?| 32732|32732|2015-07-14 17:20:50|Alex Bar|Softwear|Does anybody know if it does exist a softwear to work with, wich can show and predict how the sheet will take form in a tridimentional shape in order to make a different kind of yacht with different hull shape?alex| 32733|32732|2015-07-14 18:43:10|venturehullscanadaincorporated|Re: Softwear|Alex , if you draw up Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site Designs above are the property of the copyright holder listed under each thumbnail and all rights are reserved by each respective naval architect / yacht ... View on www.boatdesign.net Preview by Yahoo   online , and click onto ' Sailboats ' or ' Sail Design Software ' you will find not only numerous programs to predict what shape and stresses any given sail will ( experimentally ) endure , but others who are wondering if , by using computer assisted design software , sail shapes/materials can be altered ornew designs can be experimented with , with some kind of scientific hint as to their possible success or failure rate . Mark A. Steele ( Victoria B.C. )venturehulls@...   07/14/2015| 32734|32734|2015-07-15 11:20:01|smallboatvoyaguer|Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar| So I've gotten prices on Zinga primer and Wasser primer.Zinga goes for $340 a gallon for their zinc primer, 96% by weight$183 per gallon for their "coal tar".Wasser:MC-Zinc 100 – W011.6.1 is $92.21 per gallon 83% by weight MC Tar 100 – W311.79.1 is $47.58 per gallon So obviously we have some  pretty big price differences here.Both zinc primers have the ability to apply with a roller or brush, have an long potlife, and are a one part system. Basically, from what i can tell, the only difference between the two systems is the zinc content. Has anyone used the Wasser primer?I know that 85% zinc dry weight is considered the minimum here, but is 83% acceptable? -Marlin| 32735|32734|2015-07-15 16:18:29|brentswain38|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|Wasser is fine. 83% zinc is fine. Zinga prices look like a scam. I once walked into Industrial Plastics and was give a quote for epoxy tar, at $44a litre. I went next door to Cloverdale Paint, and was quoted $44 a gallon, for the  same stuff.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So I've gotten prices on Zinga primer and Wasser primer.Zinga goes for $340 a gallon for their zinc primer, 96% by weight$183 per gallon for their "coal tar".Wasser:MC-Zinc 100 – W011.6.1 is $92.21 per gallon 83% by weight MC Tar 100 – W311.79.1 is $47.58 per gallon So obviously we have some  pretty big price differences here.Both zinc primers have the ability to apply with a roller or brush, have an long potlife, and are a one part system. Basically, from what i can tell, the only difference between the two systems is the zinc content. Has anyone used the Wasser primer?I know that 85% zinc dry weight is considered the minimum here, but is 83% acceptable? -Marlin| 32736|32732|2015-07-15 16:19:22|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|Models give you a good idea how shapes work out in 3D.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know if it does exist a softwear to work with, wich can show and predict how the sheet will take form in a tridimentional shape in order to make a different kind of yacht with different hull shape?alex| 32737|32737|2015-07-16 11:34:10|Ion Huss / Lisa Doughty|Software|Try looking at clothing patterns. I don't know if there's a 3D software package but I bet they're the original users of the 'origami' method.Ion~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Does anybody know if it does exist a softwear to work with, wich can show and predict how the sheet will take form in a tridimentional shape in order to make a different kind of yacht with different hull shape?alex| 32738|32734|2015-07-16 19:03:55|mountain man|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar| I paid around $80.00 a gallon for Hempel zinc primer, it is from Denmark, they do sell in Canada.it was hard to sand off the primer to get  back to bare metal at some places I had to weld, so it seems like a good product, it is an industrial marine paint made for big cargo ships.their epoxy is even cheaper then the primer.MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:20:00 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar    So I've gotten prices on Zinga primer and Wasser primer.Zinga goes for $340 a gallon for their zinc primer, 96% by weight$183 per gallon for their "coal tar".Wasser:MC-Zinc 100 – W011.6.1 is $92.21 per gallon 83% by weight MC Tar 100 – W311.79.1 is $47.58 per gallon So obviously we have some  pretty big price differences here.Both zinc primers have the ability to apply with a roller or brush, have an long potlife, and are a one part system. Basically, from what i can tell, the only difference between the two systems is the zinc content. Has anyone used the Wasser primer?I know that 85% zinc dry weight is considered the minimum here, but is 83% acceptable? -Marlin | 32739|32734|2015-07-17 13:11:58|theboilerflue|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|Use the Wasser MCzinc stuff it's great tough stuff and also apparently the cheapest one there. Every place it's been chipped and exposed it's held pretty good. it rolls on nice and covers well. I believe I used 9 gallons for my 36'.| 32740|32734|2015-07-17 13:15:06|theboilerflue|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|I imagine that with 83% zinc paint you just need to paint it 13% thicker to have it come out the same as 96%, once it dries.| 32741|32734|2015-07-19 14:45:22|brentswain38|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|As long as each coat is not too thick ,you can build up the thickness a lot .which can only help| 32742|32742|2015-07-19 14:49:29|brentswain38|Gord's boat|I just learned that Gord's boat has two coats of zinc inside followed by a high buildup of epoxy, then spray foam. which should give good protection, for a lifetime. The outside is blasted and zinced, ready for the epoxy.Gord is a meticulous perfectionist, making it a super deal for anyone wanting a 40 footer| 32743|32732|2015-07-20 01:58:42|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|It seems that there are no specific softwear made properly to predict how metal will take form. Only for sails and clothing patterns. Is that possible?Alex2015-07-15 0:43 GMT+02:00 venturehulls@... [origamiboats] :   Alex , if you draw up Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site Designs above are the property of the copyright holder listed under each thumbnail and all rights are reserved by each respective naval architect / yacht ... View on www.boatdesign.net Preview by Yahoo   online , and click onto ' Sailboats ' or ' Sail Design Software ' you will find not only numerous programs to predict what shape and stresses any given sail will ( experimentally ) endure , but others who are wondering if , by using computer assisted design software , sail shapes/materials can be altered ornew designs can be experimented with , with some kind of scientific hint as to their possible success or failure rate . Mark A. Steele ( Victoria B.C. )venturehulls@...   07/14/2015 | 32744|32744|2015-07-20 13:15:06|jonhackett1958|36' bilge keel for sale|For Sale - Brent Swain 36' bilge keel. Located in Seattle, WA USALaunched in September 2005.Pilot house Servo rudder self steering with interior station and e-tiller pilot, rigged to linkage in pilot house.On deck SS anchor winch/spoolTabernacle mast footReversible forward hatchSS cabin top/pilot house grab rails Though hulls are 316 SS pipe and valves.Twin bottle propane locker aft. Exterior coatings above the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302h Two coats Ameron 235, One coat Ameron two part polyurethaneThree coats Brightside one part polyurethane Exterior coatings below the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302hOne coat Ameron 235Four coats coal tar epoxy Several alternating coats of bottom paint (red, blue and black) 2-1/2” spray foamed interior over 3 coats of Ameron 235All interior wood bulkheads, floors, cabinetry, furring, wall and ceiling coverings are epoxy impregnated mahogany marine grade wood and plywoods.Heavy-duty bitts, railings, bow rollers, companionway door, hawsers and all the rest that goes with a Brent Swain boat. Sails All made in 2006 by North Sails of Seattle, WAMain – Triple reef, heavy (9oz), loose footGenoa – 130% - set up for roller furlingJib – 90% - also set up for roller furling (rigged, but never sailed) Storm sail – 12oz. hank on for inner stay (rigged, but never sailed)All come with North Sail bags Rig Mast – schedule 10 corten steelAll fittings and friction areas are 304/316 stainless alloysStainless shoe on mast baseDual downwind running poles – super easy/safeAluminum roller furling – rigged with 3/8” roller line and large drum for easy furling Mast steps – SSCleats, spreaders, winch pads, gooseneck, pad eyes , rub points etc. - All SSMasthead wiring is all external and tastefully routedWire rope is 7/19 stainless where friction is an issue, (forestay, fore and aft shrouds).Double backstays and main shrouds are 1X7 – 5/16” HT galvanized with 1/2” galvanized turnbuckles throughout.Boom is a custom aluminum section from a 20 meter racing sloop. (cut down of course)Reefing lines are easily accessible near the gooseneckLazy jacks riggedIncluded - 5/16” swaging tool for nicopress sleeves EngineIsuzu 4LC1 40hp diesel >600hrs – New in crate from Lassen Marine 2005Skeg cooled50 gallon aluminum fuel tank with sight glassTriple fuel filter arrangement (switchable X2)All stainless dry exhaustExtra heavy ZF reverse gear with coolerSump pump oil change arrangementEasily accessible, serviceable and removable.Aquamet 1-1/4” shaftBronze 3 blade propDripless shaftsealShaft tube is 2-1/2”OD X 1/4” wall SS tube Electrical All wiring is marine grade tinned and gauged accordingly.Isolation transformer Charles 3000 wattBattery Charger – Trace 20amp/1500watt charger/inverterTwo Siemens 85 watt solar panels mounted aft on an archTrace charging regulator for PanelsAir-Marine 403 wind generator - mounted aftTwo Dyno 400ah 6v batteriesOne Dyno 12v group 30 starting batteryToo many details to listAll wiring terminals led to panel in pilot house.All grounds are home-run to panel. Electronics all new in 2006 Furuno 16mi Radar Icom VHFGarmin depth/fishfinder (transom mounted)Garmin GPSmap 76Navico TP300 tillerpilot Galley/Cabin/Head Force 10 - 3 burner stove with oven120 gallons in three Vetus bladder tanks - aft, mid and fore. Intake valves for each and a manifold under the galley sink for switching water source.Cold pressure water, cold hand-pump water and raw water foot-pump.Dual water filter setup for questionable water sources.High efficient small wood stove with door glass and SS heat-shield surround. (4 hrs burn time per load).Icebox - aluminum with 5-6” foam insulationSpace allotted for dorm fridge. (my current one has worked for 8 years). Plenty of cabinet space for dishes, pots, pans, pantry items and utensils.Salon table drops to make a double bed amidships.Forward berth is 8' long. Sail/bedding storage beneathJabsco head with three-way waste routing. (to 26 gal. tank or through-hull, or manual pump-out, tank to through-hull.Offset salon table turns to provide easy access for diners, as well as a weather rail for the cook.There are many more details that altogether, make for a sensible, cozy and safe boat.I have a lot of spares and goodies that go with her, including a zodiac 8' dinghy and a 9' Paratek Sea Anchor w/ 3/8” chain and 5/8” nylon three strand. My asking price is $50KAll reasonable offers consideredPlease feel free to contact me at jonhackett@...Please include your contact info. (If I missed your emails the last time I posted this, I apologize. I used the wrong email the last time I posted this).  | 32745|32744|2015-07-21 03:35:22|jeagle999|Re: 36' bilge keel for sale|Are there any pictures?| 32746|32742|2015-07-21 22:28:16|wild_explorer|Re: Gord's boat|I visited Gord to take a look at his 40 footer more than 5 years ago. The boat was ready to sail even at that time (by my standards). Beautiful boat! Single keel - good for the Arctic...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I just learned that Gord's boat has two coats of zinc inside followed by a high buildup of epoxy, then spray foam. which should give good protection, for a lifetime. The outside is blasted and zinced, ready for the epoxy.Gord is a meticulous perfectionist, making it a super deal for anyone wanting a 40 footer| 32747|32732|2015-07-21 22:34:15|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|There are several free programs which use plywood as material for the boat. So, just design it for plywood and make it from metal :))If you are too picky, use Blender (takes a lot of effort to learn).| 32748|32732|2015-07-23 10:57:45|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex2015-07-22 4:34 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   There are several free programs which use plywood as material for the boat. So, just design it for plywood and make it from metal :))If you are too picky, use Blender (takes a lot of effort to learn). | 32749|32732|2015-07-23 18:11:14|Gordon Schnell|Re: Softwear Incidently....that is Software ;>))|Anything is possible, but I haven’t seen it yet. What you can do…I did it…is:- buy a roll of copper shim stock material (any automotive parts supplier) that is at least as wide as the “half-hull pattern” from your boat plans. Use carbon paper to transfer the plans to the copper shim. Cut out the copper shim (use scissors, of the the hull plates and the decks and cabins, and solder the edges together as you would do if you were welding your new steel boat hull. Cut out the skeg and rudder patters as well. Solder them onto the hull. Buy copper tubing that represents the length and diameter of your mast. Use picture hanger wire to reproduce the rigging. You will end up with a perfect model of your new boat. It will float and it will sail. On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex2015-07-22 4:34 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] : There are several free programs which use plywood as material for the boat. So, just design it for plywood and make it from metal :))If you are too picky, use Blender (takes a lot of effort to learn).| 32750|32750|2015-07-23 21:23:42|aaron riis|legal advice|Hi all   I am going through a commonlaw breakup right now and my ex partner is claiming part ownership in the boat I have built.  I also built her a house that I am prepared to walk away from.  The boat is ready to be launched and I have a trailer It is sitting on the road right of way adjacent to her or our property.  It is not yet registered and I have not yet filed for a legal separation.  any advice appreciated Thanks, Aaron| 32751|32732|2015-07-23 22:31:36|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex| 32752|32732|2015-07-24 02:17:52|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex2015-07-24 4:31 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex | 32753|32750|2015-07-24 07:00:46|a.sobriquet|Re: legal advice|Sorry to hear of your troubles. I'm not able to give you any legal advise, but I suspect that anyone who might be able to do so would need to know your location (country, state?) to know the applicable laws that apply to your particular situation.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi all   I am going through a commonlaw breakup right now and my ex partner is claiming part ownership in the boat I have built.  I also built her a house that I am prepared to walk away from.  The boat is ready to be launched and I have a trailer It is sitting on the road right of way adjacent to her or our property.  It is not yet registered and I have not yet filed for a legal separation.  any advice appreciated Thanks, Aaron| 32754|32750|2015-07-24 07:12:08|ANDREW AIREY|Re: legal advice|This sounds potentially messy and  depends on the jurisdiction where you are based.My understanding is that there is no such thing in English law as a 'Common law marriage' - either you are legally married or you aren't - and this has led to a lot of problems in recent years with the decline of marriage and some calls for the law to be changed but this hasn't happened yet.Marital rights are much more clear cut,although the resolution of them can still be messy.There was a bit in the papers this weekend about a celebrity divorce where the woman was complaining about having to give up part of her fortune to her ex-husband,who had also been her business manager.Women have been doing this to men for years.There is an old legal maxim that possession is nine points of the law so you need to see a lawyer urgently,get the boat registered in your name if that confers legal title,and get it moved.Depending on the owner of the title to the property you can always argue about that later.although if it's in her name I don't fancy your chancescheersAndy Airey| 32755|32750|2015-07-24 09:12:30|garyhlucas|Re: legal advice| When I got divorced I cleaned out the house while my wife was out with the guy she was cheating on me with.  I wasn’t around much because I was building her the house of her dreams while working 70 hrs a week. I told her I had take everything to the dump and got rid of it, I didn’t want any memory of her.  Kept it all she never got any of it.  It’s a boat, sail away and don’t look back!   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: legal advice     This sounds potentially messy and  depends on the jurisdiction where you are based.My understanding is that there is no such thing in English law as a 'Common law marriage' - either you are legally married or you aren't - and this has led to a lot of problems in recent years with the decline of marriage and some calls for the law to be changed but this hasn't happened yet.Marital rights are much more clear cut,although the resolution of them can still be messy.There was a bit in the papers this weekend about a celebrity divorce where the woman was complaining about having to give up part of her fortune to her ex-husband,who had also been her business manager.Women have been doing this to men for years.There is an old legal maxim that possession is nine points of the law so you need to see a lawyer urgently,get the boat registered in your name if that confers legal title,and get it moved.Depending on the owner of the title to the property you can always argue about that later.although if it's in her name I don't fancy your chances cheers Andy Airey| 32756|32750|2015-07-24 11:25:47|Larry Dale|Re: legal advice|I am 3 years into a divorce in Ontario, Canada right now and everything starts the day a legal separation is filed. I don't know about common law relationships. See a lawyer Now. My wife, thankfully, isn't interested in my boat. As a matter of fact I think when I acquired my boat that that was the final straw that ended my marriage. From: "a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: legal advice Sorry to hear of your troubles. I'm not able to give you any legal advise, but I suspect that anyone who might be able to do so would need to know your location (country, state?) to know the applicable laws that apply to your particular situation.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi all   I am going through a commonlaw breakup right now and my ex partner is claiming part ownership in the boat I have built.  I also built her a house that I am prepared to walk away from.  The boat is ready to be launched and I have a trailer It is sitting on the road right of way adjacent to her or our property.  It is not yet registered and I have not yet filed for a legal separation.  any advice appreciated Thanks, Aaron | 32757|32732|2015-07-24 12:26:34|Hannu Venermo|Re: Software|There is .. but I suspect You might not be able to afford it. Soliworks has several addons that do this. 20k and up.. Cheaper option: Rhino 3d is cheap. It has plugins to unroll the hull, for cutting from flat sheet. 1.2k€ or so, 500 or so for plugins. Rhino is used alot to do boat stuff, professionally. Its also my sw of choice for 3d. Learning any large sw competently is a big job, 200-600 hours. Applies to Rhino3d, and even ms office, btw. Efficient use of the 3d sw makes the job go 10-20x faster. Iteratives, parts libraries, macros, programming in the 3d sw language are all part of it. Instances.(cntrl d). Different accuracies of models, various libraries of models for different uses, piping, fittings, fluids, tankages, valves, may all apply. Hullform analysis. Station based weights for accurate masses and othet plugins for analysis of hull. COE, roll periods, stability curves, materials calcs, project management, parts libraries for purchasing/maintenance. And so on... The vast majority of even professional users do not really know how to use the sw, and keep doing same/similar stuff over and over again, ime. Example: It takes about 1-2 hours to do a good 3d model of something like an engine mount etc. Accurate, bevels, correct thickness, perforations. Took me 2 days to write sw in rhinoscript to automate a widget (I had to learn rhinoscript). I can now generate similar shapes of the widgets (90 variations) in different sizes and thicknesses in about 30 secs. Once the base is done, its about 100x more efficient to use template based generators. Basic data in excel (or swl database) -> sw -> makes 3d models automatically. I am now able to model, and machine with a cnc milling machine, a custom widget, in steel, in 30 minutes. Just doing the 3d model in cad manually takes 1 hour (with no cam, or milling etc). Thus the cost for my widgets is about 5x cheaper, retail, or my widgets make 5x the profit vs done traditionally model -> cam -> machine. Most 3d sw is not very good, not very accurate, and not very useful. Rhino is good, but lacks some essential features, dimension-driven or (partly) parametric modelling being the most important. On 20/07/2015 07:58, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > It seems that there are no specific softwear made properly to predict > how metal will take form. Only for sails and clothing patterns. Is > that possible? > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32758|32750|2015-07-24 17:16:31|Dennis Mcfadden|Re: legal advice| I have been down the divorce road twice. It is an awful time. Remember that you joined with this person because you cared for each other. You will no doubt get much well intentioned advice from persons based upon their experience. Ignore it. Every divorce is a very individual situation. Instead get informed professional advice. In the end it is usually worth it. One route available here in British Columbia is through a professional mediator. Less money than a lawyer and the results seem to be very balanced as the confrontational lawyer situation is removed. Be fair to each other but don't give away your life at the same time.DennisTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:10:44 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: legal advice   When I got divorced I cleaned out the house while my wife was out with the guy she was cheating on me with.  I wasn’t around much because I was building her the house of her dreams while working 70 hrs a week. I told her I had take everything to the dump and got rid of it, I didn’t want any memory of her.  Kept it all she never got any of it.  It’s a boat, sail away and don’t look back!   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: legal advice     This sounds potentially messy and  depends on the jurisdiction where you are based.My understanding is that there is no such thing in English law as a 'Common law marriage' - either you are legally married or you aren't - and this has led to a lot of problems in recent years with the decline of marriage and some calls for the law to be changed but this hasn't happened yet.Marital rights are much more clear cut,although the resolution of them can still be messy.There was a bit in the papers this weekend about a celebrity divorce where the woman was complaining about having to give up part of her fortune to her ex-husband,who had also been her business manager.Women have been doing this to men for years.There is an old legal maxim that possession is nine points of the law so you need to see a lawyer urgently,get the boat registered in your name if that confers legal title,and get it moved.Depending on the owner of the title to the property you can always argue about that later.although if it's in her name I don't fancy your chances cheers Andy Airey | 32759|32750|2015-07-24 17:18:10|aaron riis|Re: legal advice|Thanks guys, just reading on the difference between licensing a craft and registering   I remember this communication,   Would it be harder for my ex partner to claim half of the boat if it was licensed only? On Friday, July 24, 2015 8:25 AM, "Larry Dale roboman3234@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am 3 years into a divorce in Ontario, Canada right now and everything starts the day a legal separation is filed. I don't know about common law relationships. See a lawyer Now. My wife, thankfully, isn't interested in my boat. As a matter of fact I think when I acquired my boat that that was the final straw that ended my marriage. From: "a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: legal advice Sorry to hear of your troubles. I'm not able to give you any legal advise, but I suspect that anyone who might be able to do so would need to know your location (country, state?) to know the applicable laws that apply to your particular situation.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi all   I am going through a commonlaw breakup right now and my ex partner is claiming part ownership in the boat I have built.  I also built her a house that I am prepared to walk away from.  The boat is ready to be launched and I have a trailer It is sitting on the road right of way adjacent to her or our property.  It is not yet registered and I have not yet filed for a legal separation.  any advice appreciated Thanks, Aaron #ygrps-yiv-38721593 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 -- #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-38721593 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762ygrp-mkp hr { 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#ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-38721593 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-38721593 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-38721593 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762 #ygrps-yiv-38721593yiv7591313762ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-38721593 | 32760|32760|2015-07-24 17:26:17|brentswain38|Building in the sun|If you have shotblasted and zinc primed steel, it can  get hot enough to fry eggs on in the sun. Industrial plastics has a white epoxy primer ,which may be compatible with top coats later. That can drop the temperature drastically , and make working on your boat a lot more pleasant and productive. If ,however, you plan on sandblasting later, you have nothing to lose , by getting some free white paint from the recycling depot and painting her white. Well worth the effort.| 32761|32760|2015-07-25 10:07:05|Matt Malone|Re: Building in the sun| Absolutely.  Painting steel white, even a poor quality job that makes it mostly white, and takes an hour to roller on, will make a huge difference to temperatures inside.  In the structure I was working on the temperatures went from 58C to 32C.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 14:24:36 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Building in the sun   If you have shotblasted and zinc primed steel, it can  get hot enough to fry eggs on in the sun. Industrial plastics has a white epoxy primer ,which may be compatible with top coats later. That can drop the temperature drastically , and make working on your boat a lot more pleasant and productive. If ,however, you plan on sandblasting later, you have nothing to lose , by getting some free white paint from the recycling depot and painting her white. Well worth the effort. | 32762|32762|2015-07-25 11:59:22|jay hand|common law marriages|Usually common law marriages don't have the same property division rules as legalized marriage. That is, if its in your name, its yours. But depends on the state you are in  (see below) and also the circumstances.You  really have to see a lawyer

From Wikipedia:Common-law marriage in the United States can still be contracted in nine states (Alabama, Colorado, Kansas, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Iowa, Montana, Utah, and Texas) and the District of Columbia.New Hampshire recognizes common-law marriage for purposes of probate only, and Utah recognizes common-law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.[1] Common-law marriage can no longer be contracted in 27 states, and was never permitted in 13 states. The requirements for a common-law marriage to be validly contracted differ from state to state. Nevertheless, all states—including those that have abolished the contract of common-law marriage within their boundaries—recognize common-law marriages lawfully contracted in those jurisdictions that permit it.[2] Some states that do not recognize common law marriage also afford legal rights to parties to a putative marriage (i.e. in circumstances when someone who was not actually married, e.g. due to a failure to obtain or complete a valid marriage license from the proper jurisdiction, believed in good faith that he or she was married) that arise before a marriage's invalidity is discovered.| 32763|32732|2015-07-25 15:08:17|garyhlucas|Re: Softwear| I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex   2015-07-24 4:31 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :     You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex     | 32764|32750|2015-07-25 15:25:01|Mark Hamill|Re: legal advice| Legal Aid had/has a service or arrangement with certain lawyers to give you advice for a cheap price ( can't rmember if it is 15 20 or 30 minutes for $50?? ) Anyway--used it several times and it was always helpful. Search Ontario Legal Aid and you will find references such as this http://www.ontariodivorces.com/legalaid.html. If it has a number on it "they" can go after it somebody once said.| 32765|32732|2015-07-25 17:49:09|opuspaul|Re: Software|Rhino 3D is a great program but it is a full blown CAD program.  I found it a fairly steep learning curve.  Without the expensive plug-ins it would not be very good with the calculations required for displacement, stability, etc.   I did find it useful for some of the simple rendering but I never paid the money for the program.  By far the simplest program to start with I have seen is Hulls by Carlson design.   It is great for simple hull shapes and free.  Many plywood boats have been designed using it.  http://carlsondesign.com/software/add-ons/shareware/hull-designerIf you want to get more advanced I recommend using Freeship (Free) or Delftship (paid version).   I found the learning curve steeper than hulls but not too steep.  It can still do plate layouts, decks and cockpits and  displacement and resistance calculations without having to pay for expensive plug ins.There is a yahoo group for Freeship if you are interested.I played with Freeship and Delftship a lot while I was stuck in hotel rooms working overseas. You can do some very complex models with Freeship and it will automatically fair the surfaces for you if you know the tricks.  Look at Paul Wilson's file for some of the screen shots.https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Paul%20Wilson%27s%20File/I personally found that the best way to do an origami hull is to start with a fully chined hull, lay out the pieces on  a sheet of stiff card paper using a program like hulls, then cut, join and tape until you get the shape you like.  By using the computer program, you can do a lot of experimenting before you need to start cutting in to real materials.  Paul  | 32766|32750|2015-07-25 18:10:56|opuspaul|Re: legal advice|I was in a similar situation.   It really sucks.   If you are still on friendly talking terms with your ex, then it is possible to go to an arbitrator and get an agreement.   If you are fighting, it is almost impossible.   The arbitrator will tell you not to do it, and say it is very unusual but if you persist and you are both sincere, it can happen.  The arbitrator wrote up a contract for the division of goods and we did the rest of the divorce ourselves with the help of a DIY/home divorce kit.  I am not sure how it works with a common law relationship but from my understanding there is not much difference anymore if you were together for quite awhile and had no pre-agreements. The secret to coming up with an agreement is that you will get to a point when you are both really pissed off about something.   It could be the smallest thing and really mean nothing but it is a stressful time so things get amplified.  That is the time for you both to swallow it and sign on the dotted line.  If both are unhappy, it is probably about right.    Ten years later, it will mean diddly squat.We went to a few brokers/ evaluators and paid for an assessment of value of the boat.  It will be very, very low.  She may think of all the materials and work and think it is worth a fortune but it is only the market value that matters.  That is just the way it is and she need to understand this....I didn't like it since I was dirt poor but I paid my 50% of the assessed value.   I had put all the money into it, done the work, and also put her through school.    I kept the tools and she kept the furniture in the apartment.   You may think it wasn't fair but that is just the way it is.   It was the best money I ever spent since I got my freedom machine :).  Everyone will give you advice and tell you to get a lawyer.   Close friends may want you to be vindictive if your partner treated you wrong.  They are well intentioned but they may be placing themselves into your situation and may not be doing you any favors.  If you are smart, you will look ahead and do what is the best thing for yourself.   It is a big ocean.  Good luck, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Legal Aid had/has a service or arrangement with certain lawyers to give you advice for a cheap price ( can't rmember if it is 15 20 or 30 minutes for $50?? ) Anyway--used it several times and it was always helpful. Search Ontario Legal Aid and you will find references such as this http://www.ontariodivorces.com/legalaid.html. If it has a number on it "they" can go after it somebody once said.| 32767|32750|2015-07-25 18:18:18|wild_explorer|Re: legal advice|Move your boat on someone property (friends, storage). If you still have someone to trust (some friends) make CONDITIONAL sale for $1. In sale contract specify that person you selling your boat to CANNOT sale, donate, give away this boat (for, let say 5 years) and you have an option to buy it back for the same price.Because your boat is not registered yet - it does not exist. If you have receipts that YOU bought the steel, it will be much easier to explain why YOU sold it (as a scrap metal for example) if needed.| 32768|32732|2015-07-25 18:18:45|brentswain38|Re: Software|I started with a full length chine. Then I cut the bottom plate in half and attached the first and last 8 ft  of the bottom halves to the topsides plate.A slight variation in displacement  from your original calculations on displacement, but far less than the variability in how much weight different owners will put aboard---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Rhino 3D is a great program but it is a full blown CAD program.  I found it a fairly steep learning curve.  Without the expensive plug-ins it would not be very good with the calculations required for displacement, stability, etc.   I did find it useful for some of the simple rendering but I never paid the money for the program.  By far the simplest program to start with I have seen is Hulls by Carlson design.   It is great for simple hull shapes and free.  Many plywood boats have been designed using it.  http://carlsondesign.com/software/add-ons/shareware/hull-designerIf you want to get more advanced I recommend using Freeship (Free) or Delftship (paid version).   I found the learning curve steeper than hulls but not too steep.  It can still do plate layouts, decks and cockpits and  displacement and resistance calculations without having to pay for expensive plug ins.There is a yahoo group for Freeship if you are interested.I played with Freeship and Delftship a lot while I was stuck in hotel rooms working overseas. You can do some very complex models with Freeship and it will automatically fair the surfaces for you if you know the tricks.  Look at Paul Wilson's file for some of the screen shots.https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Paul%20Wilson%27s%20File/I personally found that the best way to do an origami hull is to start with a fully chined hull, lay out the pieces on  a sheet of stiff card paper using a program like hulls, then cut, join and tape until you get the shape you like.  By using the computer program, you can do a lot of experimenting before you need to start cutting in to real materials.  Paul  | 32769|32732|2015-07-25 18:21:41|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|Software (or computer) will give you answer depending on the question you ask. Wrong question - wrong answer, right question - right answer. If you design your boat in 3D for origami method, it will give you 3D origami pattern.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex| 32770|32750|2015-07-25 18:41:03|brentswain38|Re: legal advice|A lawyer  friend told me tha,t in divorce cases, he always tells them to be generous from the outset. That way, a judge can easily see who is being greedy, and unreasonable. If you tally up everything that you jointly owned, given the high cost of houses, and the super low cost of boats at the moment , halfway  comes nowhere near keeping only your boat , something most judges can easily be convinced of. Include your estimation of where half way comes,in terms of your assets..Sounds like your claim is being entirely reasonable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Move your boat on someone property (friends, storage). If you still have someone to trust (some friends) make CONDITIONAL sale for $1. In sale contract specify that person you selling your boat to CANNOT sale, donate, give away this boat (for, let say 5 years) and you have an option to buy it back for the same price.Because your boat is not registered yet - it does not exist. If you have receipts that YOU bought the steel, it will be much easier to explain why YOU sold it (as a scrap metal for example) if needed.| 32771|32762|2015-07-25 19:01:06|aaron riis|Re: common law marriages|I'm in canada it is the same for commonlaw as married. On Saturday, July 25, 2015 8:59 AM, "jay hand zolotoyritsar@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Usually common law marriages don't have the same property division rules as legalized marriage. That is, if its in your name, its yours. But depends on the state you are in  (see below) and also the circumstances.You  really have to see a lawyer

From Wikipedia:Common-law marriage in the United States can still be contracted in nine states (Alabama, Colorado, Kansas, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Iowa, Montana, Utah, and Texas) and the District of Columbia.New Hampshire recognizes common-law marriage for purposes of probate only, and Utah recognizes common-law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.[1] Common-law marriage can no longer be contracted in 27 states, and was never permitted in 13 states. The requirements for a common-law marriage to be validly contracted differ from state to state. Nevertheless, all states—including those that have abolished the contract of common-law marriage within their boundaries—recognize common-law marriages lawfully contracted in those jurisdictions that permit it.[2] Some states that do not recognize common law marriage also afford legal rights to parties to a putative marriage (i.e. in circumstances when someone who was not actually married, e.g. due to a failure to obtain or complete a valid marriage license from the proper jurisdiction, believed in good faith that he or she was married) that arise before a marriage's invalidity is discovered. #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 -- #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 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#ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309 #ygrps-yiv-922757875yiv4730776309ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-922757875 | 32772|32772|2015-07-27 01:02:19|wild_explorer|Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|I want to have fore and aft steel (11 ga) bulkheads on my boat for the Arctic. I know, Brent does not feel that steel bulkheads are needed on Origami-boat and it will give some distortion on the hull. But I have 40 footer and it seems reasonable room-wise for me.I used cheap (around $30) laser level (which gives cross-pattern) with magnetic base and I placed it on the steel angle. I used plumb-bob to find how to mount that angle in vertical and longitudinal direction. It may need some adjustment in transverse direction, but it can be accomplished with 2-4 plumb-bob's references, shims and screw clamp for adjustment. Then, you just rotate the laser level on the angle and get your bulkhead location marking (with some off set correction for laser-to-base distance). You can re-check the location of the markings with a plumb-bob.I am using 4" wide, 3/16" strip to make bulkhead doubler (see pictures in photo section). It will give me 3/8" total thickness in that area. I had to use 6" long pieces with cuts every 3" on compound curve area and about 16" long pieces with cuts every 3" on more straight areas. 1/16" cuts (almost to the end) every 3" allow better fitting on curved areas. Scoring with a grinding/cutting wheel was not enough to remove all play there.As you can see on the pictures, it has 2 vertical lines (distortion) on the outside of the hull and some horizontal lines (where 6" long pieces meet), But, because it is below water line, it does not make any difference. Only 2 vertical lines will be visible (for now) above waterline and will be grounded off before painting.Pros: 3/8" metal in the area of the bulkhead. I can weld bulkhead even on both sides and it will not be visible on the outside of the hull. Extra thickness of the metal fore and aft of the folding darts.Cons: 2 vertical distortion lines 4" apart for each bulkhead - need to grind it off before painting. Distortion could be less if to use 3/32 6011 electrodes. I plan to try it on the area above the waterline.| 32773|32772|2015-07-27 01:37:31|opuspaul|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|I agree with Brent, you may dent it but I really doubt you will ever put a hole in small origami boat.   I once hit the end of a very large deadhead log  at full speed and it didn't even make a mark.   If you really want flood protection it would be against a hose or fitting breaking or something like that.   With good maintenance and good through hulls, I think this is highly unlikely to be a problem.   If you are going to try waterproof bulkheads, it is usually the type of door and it's seal through the bulkhead that is the critical item.   Any flexing of the door or it's seal, and it will leak like a sieve.Why not use 3/4 inch or 1 inch  plywood bulkheads attached with bolts on steel tabs?   Once they are foamed in around the edges, it is totally waterproof and there is heaps of strength from the water pressure from flooding.   It will probably be just as stiff or stiffer around the door than a thinner steel bulkhead.  The vertical lines that are caused from weld distortion on a fully welded bulkhead show much more than horizontal lines and are much harder to hide.  Cheers, Paul| 32774|32772|2015-07-27 12:43:22|wild_explorer|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|I agree on the door's remark. It just need to make the door-on-the-frame as an assembly and weld it to the bulkhead.I was thinking about plywood as well. It is need to weld the tabs, which will give some distortion where the tabs are welded. Plywood will give you more strong (because of extra thickness of plywood) and more rigid bulkhead. But it might put more stress on the tabs (without foaming). Without foaming, plywood may shrink or expand depending on the humidity of the air. I may not be able to get the hull foamed for some extended period of time. So, bulkhead will not be watertight at that case (I do not want to use some sealant just between bulkhead edges and the hull). Plus it is need to join plywood sheets as well (and it will require more precise/harder fitting than steel as well). It is easier to weld extra piece to the steel than to extend plywood for example. As we discussed before, foam is not only gives you a comfort, but it is the one of the STRUCTURAL elements of Origamiboat (foam core with wood frames in addition to a steel shell) which gives Origamiboat extra strength.I will foam it someday, but at this time, I need a watertight bulkhead without foam's help. Another issue is to mount the door on plywood bulkhead (need to bolt it on instead of welding).Weight & Price wise:11 ga Steel - 5 Lbs/sq.ft, $3 sq.ft (5x$0.6)3/4 Plywood - 2.5-3 Lbs/sq.ft, $2-6 sq.ft1" Plywood - 3.5-4.5 Lbs/sq.ft, $3-8 sq.ftI put doublers for bulkhead. So, even fully welding bulkhead to a doubler will not be visible on the hull (just the distortion from welding the doublers on). Another pros - it will give me extra strength (similar to leaf spring on the car's axle) of transverse frames to dart's areas of the hull protect. Together with chine seams reinforcements, it creates the "skeleton" of the hull for extra strength and for more equal distribution of the transverse load. Another plus, that I can terminate longitudinal stringers and weld tabs for the wood at/to the doublers (eliminating extra distortion).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If you are going to try waterproof bulkheads, it is usually the type of door and it's seal through the bulkhead that is the critical item.   Any flexing of the door or it's seal, and it will leak like a sieve.Why not use 3/4 inch or 1 inch  plywood bulkheads attached with bolts on steel tabs?   Once they are foamed in around the edges, it is totally waterproof and there is heaps of strength from the water pressure from flooding.   It will probably be just as stiff or stiffer around the door than a thinner steel bulkhead.  The vertical lines that are caused from weld distortion on a fully welded bulkhead show much more than horizontal lines and are much harder to hide.  Cheers, Paul| 32775|32724|2015-07-27 13:25:31|edward_stoneuk|Re: Priming Soon|Zinga bonds to steel better than to itself.  If one puts on too much Zinga, a top coat may pull off the excess Zinga.  I know this too my cost.Regards,Ted| 32776|32772|2015-07-27 15:08:17|Darren Bos|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead| Wild, if you are going north, make sure you insulate that bulkhead well.  In refitting our boat we are cutting out the aluminum bulkheads.  In winter they act like giant heat-sinks taking all the warmth in the boat and dumping it into the shell.  So, realistically with 3" insulation each side, plus a covering of some kind, your bulkhead is now 7 or 8" thick. Darren On 15-07-26 10:02 PM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I want to have fore and aft steel (11 ga) bulkheads on my boat for the Arctic. I know, Brent does not feel that steel bulkheads are needed on Origami-boat and it will give some distortion on the hull. But I have 40 footer and it seems reasonable room-wise for me. I used cheap (around $30) laser level (which gives cross-pattern) with magnetic base and I placed it on the steel angle. I used plumb-bob to find how to mount that angle in vertical and longitudinal direction. It may need some adjustment in transverse direction, but it can be accomplished with 2-4 plumb-bob's references, shims and screw clamp for adjustment. Then, you just rotate the laser level on the angle and get your bulkhead location marking (with some off set correction for laser-to-base distance). You can re-check the location of the markings with a plumb-bob. I am using 4" wide, 3/16" strip to make bulkhead doubler (see pictures in photo section). It will give me 3/8" total thickness in that area. I had to use 6" long pieces with cuts every 3" on compound curve area and about 16" long pieces with cuts every 3" on more straight areas. 1/16" cuts (almost to the end) every 3" allow better fitting on curved areas. Scoring with a grinding/cutting wheel was not enough to remove all play there. As you can see on the pictures, it has 2 vertical lines (distortion) on the outside of the hull and some horizontal lines (where 6" long pieces meet), But, because it is below water line, it does not make any difference. Only 2 vertical lines will be visible (for now) above waterline and will be grounded off before painting. Pros: 3/8" metal in the area of the bulkhead. I can weld bulkhead even on both sides and it will not be visible on the outside of the hull. Extra thickness of the metal fore and aft of the folding darts. Cons: 2 vertical distortion lines 4" apart for each bulkhead - need to grind it off before painting. Distortion could be less if to use 3/32 6011 electrodes. I plan to try it on the area above the waterline. | 32777|32777|2015-07-27 21:05:41|aguysailing|Not about building a boat|So.... click next for those not interested in anything else.This is about a cruising issue I came upon this month in the wilderness of Clayoquot Sound.  While traversing a narrow channel to drop the hook I noticed a trail camera recording me and anything else in its aim.  I immediate thought to shoot it.  I did not.  I have also seen trail cameras in remote hiking areas.  Is it just me or does anyone else feel privacy invasion is migrating from the city insanities to the refuge of the wilderness.  What do you think present and future cruisers?.... Gary| 32778|32772|2015-07-27 21:10:11|brentswain38|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|Welding the doublers on will cause distortion, almost as much as welding the bulkheads in. You wouldn't want to even consider going to the arctic without spray foam, and you wont need the bulkheads till then ( not even then)| 32779|32772|2015-07-27 21:12:57|brentswain38|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|Friends had all their interior on aluminium angles. They dripped like a leaky faucett from condensation, until they cut them all out.| 32780|32772|2015-07-28 01:36:00|wild_explorer|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|Yep, that was my another concern - insulation of bulkheads. I might reconsider steel bulkhead... May be 24" steel strips to the hull and plywood extension for the rest (excluding door frame?). Will see.. Or... may be 8" thick bulkhead would not be so bad weight-wise :)Do you think that 3" insulation on each side of the bulkhead is a minimum required thickness?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Wild, if you are going north, make sure you insulate that bulkhead well.  In refitting our boat we are cutting out the aluminum bulkheads.  In winter they act like giant heat-sinks taking all the warmth in the boat and dumping it into the shell.  So, realistically with 3" insulation each side, plus a covering of some kind, your bulkhead is now 7 or 8" thick. Darren | 32781|32772|2015-07-28 02:43:00|Darren Bos|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead| You're probably better off asking someone who has actually lived in the cold in their foamed boat.  I think 1.5-2" is pretty standard.  My hull has 2.5"x2"x1/4" T-profile for stiffening, so I was considering 3" to give me 1/2" over the longitudinal frames (above cabin sole).  It also depends on the weight and cost of course, but if you are going far north I would think the extra inch would be appreciated.  Whatever you use, make it continuous with no gaps.  We had one winter trip bringing our boat up from Washington.  It had a patchwork of white-bead styrofoam covering most of the hull and cabin head (with gaps), but the bulkheads were left bare.  With a Dickinson Atlantic diesel heater going full-bore we could only warm the interior 5C above the exterior temps, not to mention the condensation. I also did a mock-up of a cabin sole that is 1.5" styrofoam with okoume/luan doorskins laminated on both sides and 1.5"sq douglas fir around the edge.  It has been the back step for my house for a year now and seems to be holding up well.  It would make for a nicely insulated cabin sole and makes it easy to lift out large access boards in the floor. Darren On 15-07-27 10:35 PM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yep, that was my another concern - insulation of bulkheads. I might reconsider steel bulkhead... May be 24" steel strips to the hull and plywood extension for the rest (excluding door frame?). Will see.. Or... may be 8" thick bulkhead would not be so bad weight-wise :) Do you think that 3" insulation on each side of the bulkhead is a minimum required thickness? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Wild, if you are going north, make sure you insulate that bulkhead well.  In refitting our boat we are cutting out the aluminum bulkheads.  In winter they act like giant heat-sinks taking all the warmth in the boat and dumping it into the shell.  So, realistically with 3" insulation each side, plus a covering of some kind, your bulkhead is now 7 or 8" thick. Darren | 32782|32762|2015-07-28 05:12:31|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel prices|The price of steel has crashed. In january this year, steel was about 480$ / metric ton. Now, 28.07.2015, its 100$. About 75% less. https://www.quandl.com/data/OFDP/STEELBILLET_46-Steel-Billet-Price-Cash?utm_medium=graph&utm_source=quandl The chinese mess will probably have a big knock-on effect, and the weakness will likely last 6 months, or more. Thus, for planning large projects, the cost of the raw steel should be relatively cheap, at this time. This does not, of course, mean much as the whole total project cost will not change much with the cost of steel, alone. Its still an interesting data point. Lead (ballast, batteries) is also down about 30% as are commodity metals in general. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32783|32783|2015-07-28 13:03:27|wild_explorer|Kubota V2203 (aka Beta 50)|Finally, I found used Kubota V2203-DI from refrigerator (Carrier) unit for a very reasonable price. This engine is similar to Kubota V2203-M, but it is set up for maximum 2200 RPM with working speed about 1700-1800 RPM and for output of 38HP/28kW (continuous output for 365/7/24) and Max torque. It will start even without glow plugs power.It was a lot of these engines available 2-3 years ago, because of new emission regulations. All engines with Tier 1, 2 (and 3?) were need to be replaced for new ones in refrigerator units to be legal on the roads. But it is perfectly fine (and legal) for DIY boatbuilders. You can get a good used engine under $1500Word of caution!!!This is Kubota V2203 engine, but with some minor modifications and most parts will fit to this engine. But... Because of the contract Between Kubota and Carrier, Kubota does NOT provide any information for these engines and will NOT tell you which parts are the same (I called Kubota USA). I had to find company which fixes Carrier units and they know what parts are different (very few). Because of the low settings, these engines (from Carrier ref units) easily go for 20-30kHr before overhauls. User manual and shop/parts manual (from Carrier) are available online (do not download it from the web-sites asking for e-mails).It is need to replace shallow oil pan for deeper one and make some minor modifications (engine mounts, accessories, adapter plate/belly for the marine transmission, etc) to fit it to a boat, but it is worth of troubles. You will have simple and reliable industrial engine with RPM range 700-2200 RPMs (without modifications/re-adjustments of injection pump) and up to 35-38 HP. Fuel economy (according to performance curve) is just below 250 g/kW/hr. So, in worth case, the fuel economy will be about 250x28= 7000 g/hr, which is about 2.1 US Gal/Hr at maximum HP. More likely, fuel economy will be below 2 US Gal/Hr @ 1800 RPM (~26.2kW/35HP)| 32784|32750|2015-07-28 14:00:21|aaron riis|Re: legal advice|Thanks, should I license it, can't afford to register it On Saturday, July 25, 2015 3:41 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   A lawyer  friend told me tha,t in divorce cases, he always tells them to be generous from the outset. That way, a judge can easily see who is being greedy, and unreasonable. If you tally up everything that you jointly owned, given the high cost of houses, and the super low cost of boats at the moment , halfway  comes nowhere near keeping only your boat , something most judges can easily be convinced of. Include your estimation of where half way comes,in terms of your assets..Sounds like your claim is being entirely reasonable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Move your boat on someone property (friends, storage). If you still have someone to trust (some friends) make CONDITIONAL sale for $1. In sale contract specify that person you selling your boat to CANNOT sale, donate, give away this boat (for, let say 5 years) and you have an option to buy it back for the same price.Because your boat is not registered yet - it does not exist. 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[origamiboats] :   I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex   2015-07-24 4:31 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :     You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex     | 32786|32777|2015-07-29 17:10:34|brentswain38|Re: Not about building a boat|I'm surprised they don't get shot more often. Eventually, they probably will. One would  have to get the chip out afterwards. That would only take a few minutes with a sledge hammer.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So.... click next for those not interested in anything else.This is about a cruising issue I came upon this month in the wilderness of Clayoquot Sound.  While traversing a narrow channel to drop the hook I noticed a trail camera recording me and anything else in its aim.  I immediate thought to shoot it.  I did not.  I have also seen trail cameras in remote hiking areas.  Is it just me or does anyone else feel privacy invasion is migrating from the city insanities to the refuge of the wilderness.  What do you think present and future cruisers?.... Gary| 32787|32732|2015-07-29 19:34:59|garyhlucas|Re: Softwear| I bought a set of Brent’s plans for the 31. I drew all the stations in Rhino. I then surfaced the hull from those stations.  Using Rhino curvature analysis you can see that the surface of the hull is at the midpoint is very close to developable (can be flattened).  However at both ends there is quite a lot of compound curvature where the steel must bend into a bowl shape, a shape with curvature in two directions.  We know this happens because the boats have actually been built to Brent’s lines.  Then I made a fully developable surface consisting of conical shaped sections.  I did this by sweeping the surface along the centerline of the hull and the toe rail line.  There are three cones that make up the hull shape.  The middle section is gently curved in just one direction, it is nice and smooth.  Then there is a cone at either end whose center points are at the end of the chine line.  When I swept a surface over this you get a hollow on both ends of the hull where the curvature reverses direction.  I proved this by cutting out a developable paper pattern which folded up and all edges came together perfectly.  You could then see the hollow reverse curve at both ends of the paper boat.  This hollow doesn’t exist in the actual boats, you would notice it immediately if it did.  So what happens is that the steel you cut out is not fully developable.  When you winch in both ends of the boat to pull the sheets to the center line and toe rail you actually deform the steel in two directions, which give such a nice surface it looks as fair as fiberglass above the waterline.  That surface is also extremely stiff from the curvature, hence there is no need for stringers in the ends.  The mid section though is only gently curved so it requires the stringers to stiffen it.   The tough part was that I was hoping to get an accurate 3D model of the hull.  Because Brent’s construction method is very repeatable if the sheets are accurately cut, and accurately located before welding it seemed that one could design an interior for the boat in 3D before building anything, and the parts designed would fit into the boat very accurately.  The advantage here is that you wouldn’t run into the common situation where if that bulkhead were 1” further forward then there would be just enough space for the tank I wanted to install.  Of course the bulkhead is in and the tank doesn’t fit so I am going to have to live with it and use a different tank.   I did come up with a way to compensate the hull shape to actually match the size and shape of the sheets on Brent’s plans.  However it was a very tedious manual method that involved a ton of calculations and trial and error fitting that I never found the time to do.   Gary H. Lucas     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     Sorry Gary, I don't clearly understand when you say: "So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet".Could you clarify?Alex 2015-07-25 21:06 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :   I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex   2015-07-24 4:31 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :     You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex       | 32788|32732|2015-07-29 21:27:20|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|He probably meant "not truly developable surfaces".Developable surface means, that you can simply make the shape from the sheet by applying the force in one direction only (usually without permanent deformation of the sheet). Like making a cylinder from rectangular sheet (or cone from cut sheet). Simple example of such boat is full length hard chine boat made from continuous sheets. You just shape the sheet by applying the force in one direction. Similar to a making a hull from full length overlapping wood planks (without a twist).Origamiboat has compound shape (non-developable surfaces). Especially near the dart points it will have permanent deformation of the plate in several directions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry Gary, I don't clearly understand when you say: "So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet".Could you clarify?Alex2015-07-25 21:06 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :  I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet. Gary H. Lucas | 32789|32732|2015-07-30 18:43:47|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|Gary,I had the same problem putting hull lines into 3D. Hull shape and the 2D pattern did not match. This simply means that, Hull lines are only "guide lines", and real shape of the Origamiboat is slightly different. I guess, nobody actually checked if real hull lines match the plans.And it does not really matter in practical terms. After folding the hull and fitting the deck, all other fittings are done based on what you got.So... If you made 3D model (which is more likely has slightly different cross-sections than on the plans) and you got exactly the same 2D pattern as Brent has... You found the real shape of Origamiboat ;)) Congrats!!!P.S. I made a model (see file in file section https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/10%20Model%20of%20Origami%20Boat/  ) from one of my 3D models just to verify if I can trust my unfolding. It was laser cut and did not have any problems with folding. Now I am building a boat from another 3D model and CNC cut plates, and so far everything fits as it suppose to be.So, getting accurate 2D pattern for real hull from 3D model is possible. But, as you said, it takes a lot of effort.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I bought a set of Brent’s plans for the 31. I drew all the stations in Rhino. I then surfaced the hull from those stations. ...skipped... The middle section is gently curved in just one direction, it is nice and smooth.  Then there is a cone at either end whose center points are at the end of the chine line.  When I swept a surface over this you get a hollow on both ends of the hull where the curvature reverses direction.  I proved this by cutting out a developable paper pattern which folded up and all edges came together perfectly.  You could then see the hollow reverse curve at both ends of the paper boat.  This hollow doesn’t exist in the actual boats, you would notice it immediately if it did. ...skipped...The tough part was that I was hoping to get an accurate 3D model of the hull.  Because Brent’s construction method is very repeatable if the sheets are accurately cut, and accurately located before welding it seemed that one could design an interior for the boat in 3D before building anything, and the parts designed would fit into the boat very accurately....skipped... I did come up with a way to compensate the hull shape to actually match the size and shape of the sheets on Brent’s plans.  However it was a very tedious manual method that involved a ton of calculations and trial and error fitting that I never found the time to do. Gary H. Lucas  | 32790|32732|2015-07-31 06:29:18|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|So, according to Williswildest and Gary, despite the effort, it is possible match the developable half hull compound curvature (flat 2D) and the 3D computer model. That means that all the interiors can be easely designed and precut making the entire boat extremely quick to buid and repeatable.But you also say that the final result of the hull is similar to fiberglass above the water line, what about below?Alex2015-07-30 1:33 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :   I bought a set of Brent’s plans for the 31. I drew all the stations in Rhino. I then surfaced the hull from those stations.  Using Rhino curvature analysis you can see that the surface of the hull is at the midpoint is very close to developable (can be flattened).  However at both ends there is quite a lot of compound curvature where the steel must bend into a bowl shape, a shape with curvature in two directions.  We know this happens because the boats have actually been built to Brent’s lines.  Then I made a fully developable surface consisting of conical shaped sections.  I did this by sweeping the surface along the centerline of the hull and the toe rail line.  There are three cones that make up the hull shape.  The middle section is gently curved in just one direction, it is nice and smooth.  Then there is a cone at either end whose center points are at the end of the chine line.  When I swept a surface over this you get a hollow on both ends of the hull where the curvature reverses direction.  I proved this by cutting out a developable paper pattern which folded up and all edges came together perfectly.  You could then see the hollow reverse curve at both ends of the paper boat.  This hollow doesn’t exist in the actual boats, you would notice it immediately if it did.  So what happens is that the steel you cut out is not fully developable.  When you winch in both ends of the boat to pull the sheets to the center line and toe rail you actually deform the steel in two directions, which give such a nice surface it looks as fair as fiberglass above the waterline.  That surface is also extremely stiff from the curvature, hence there is no need for stringers in the ends.  The mid section though is only gently curved so it requires the stringers to stiffen it.   The tough part was that I was hoping to get an accurate 3D model of the hull.  Because Brent’s construction method is very repeatable if the sheets are accurately cut, and accurately located before welding it seemed that one could design an interior for the boat in 3D before building anything, and the parts designed would fit into the boat very accurately.  The advantage here is that you wouldn’t run into the common situation where if that bulkhead were 1” further forward then there would be just enough space for the tank I wanted to install.  Of course the bulkhead is in and the tank doesn’t fit so I am going to have to live with it and use a different tank.   I did come up with a way to compensate the hull shape to actually match the size and shape of the sheets on Brent’s plans.  However it was a very tedious manual method that involved a ton of calculations and trial and error fitting that I never found the time to do.   Gary H. Lucas     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     Sorry Gary, I don't clearly understand when you say: "So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet".Could you clarify?Alex 2015-07-25 21:06 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :   I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex   2015-07-24 4:31 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :     You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex       | 32791|32732|2015-07-31 09:33:38|garyhlucas|Re: Softwear| Alex, The only reason I mentioned above the water line is that at rest you can’t see the hard chine line. Other than the Hard chine the hull below the water line is also very smooth unless you went overboard welding.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 6:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     So, according to Williswildest and Gary, despite the effort, it is possible match the developable half hull compound curvature (flat 2D) and the 3D computer model. That means that all the interiors can be easely designed and precut making the entire boat extremely quick to buid and repeatable.But you also say that the final result of the hull is similar to fiberglass above the water line, what about below?Alex   2015-07-30 1:33 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :   I bought a set of Brent’s plans for the 31. I drew all the stations in Rhino. I then surfaced the hull from those stations.  Using Rhino curvature analysis you can see that the surface of the hull is at the midpoint is very close to developable (can be flattened).  However at both ends there is quite a lot of compound curvature where the steel must bend into a bowl shape, a shape with curvature in two directions.  We know this happens because the boats have actually been built to Brent’s lines.  Then I made a fully developable surface consisting of conical shaped sections.  I did this by sweeping the surface along the centerline of the hull and the toe rail line.  There are three cones that make up the hull shape.  The middle section is gently curved in just one direction, it is nice and smooth.  Then there is a cone at either end whose center points are at the end of the chine line.  When I swept a surface over this you get a hollow on both ends of the hull where the curvature reverses direction.  I proved this by cutting out a developable paper pattern which folded up and all edges came together perfectly.  You could then see the hollow reverse curve at both ends of the paper boat.  This hollow doesn’t exist in the actual boats, you would notice it immediately if it did.  So what happens is that the steel you cut out is not fully developable.  When you winch in both ends of the boat to pull the sheets to the center line and toe rail you actually deform the steel in two directions, which give such a nice surface it looks as fair as fiberglass above the waterline.  That surface is also extremely stiff from the curvature, hence there is no need for stringers in the ends.  The mid section though is only gently curved so it requires the stringers to stiffen it.   The tough part was that I was hoping to get an accurate 3D model of the hull.  Because Brent’s construction method is very repeatable if the sheets are accurately cut, and accurately located before welding it seemed that one could design an interior for the boat in 3D before building anything, and the parts designed would fit into the boat very accurately.  The advantage here is that you wouldn’t run into the common situation where if that bulkhead were 1” further forward then there would be just enough space for the tank I wanted to install.  Of course the bulkhead is in and the tank doesn’t fit so I am going to have to live with it and use a different tank.   I did come up with a way to compensate the hull shape to actually match the size and shape of the sheets on Brent’s plans.  However it was a very tedious manual method that involved a ton of calculations and trial and error fitting that I never found the time to do.   Gary H. Lucas     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     Sorry Gary, I don't clearly understand when you say: "So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet".Could you clarify?Alex 2015-07-25 21:06 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :   I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Softwear     I see what you mean. It's the opposite way round. First 3D and than 2D. Interesting, but I don't think the Software (thanks Gordon ;-))...) will tell you how to cut the half hull sheet in order to get the origami method. Thats the point.Alex   2015-07-24 4:31 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :     You may want to change your question. If your question is: "Is possible to draw 3-D hull and get building (flat 2-D) pattern for the half of the hull from such model?" Simple answer is "Yes".Some professional sheet drawing (forming) software should give you exact 3D shape from metal sheet and what force you need to form such shape.There is even a software which gives you real time change in 2D pattern when you adjust your 3D model. The main question "How sea-worthy will be the boat of your design?" Brent-boat is very good. Even software say it is ;))I will save you some time now... I have designed a boat, I am building, by myself. I did not have Brent's plans, Brent helped me a lot by giving his advices how to make it sea-worthy. I was need heavier displacement sailboat than Brent's 40 footer. I ended up with very similar shape and dimensions for the hull that Brent's 40 footer has. Similar, but different, because of my extra requirements. So, my 2-D pattern is similar but different too. Brent's hull's shape is better for twin keels.If you do not care about sea-worthiness - use any software which gives you 2D pattern from 3D shape. Blender does it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My question is, is it possible pull an half shall drown on a computer softwear and see the tridimensional shape it takes as if it was a real one?Alex         | 32792|32777|2015-07-31 18:41:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Not about building a boat|As a hunter I use trail cameras and think that they have a place in the wilderness. I doubt anyone gives a hoot about you personally and aren't out to invade your privacy, most are put up to record animals and animal movement. Ie. for scouting hunting locations. I have found pics of people on mine once but that on an acreage I was bow hunting and they got promptly deleted.I do know that some people also use them for security purposes, maybe you were close to someones grow op? lol I personally would have a hard time destroying private property that belonged to somebody else. We all work hard for our money and don't deserve to have our property stolen or destroyed by others. I don't see the harm in trail cams, your personal picture or boat picture will probably just end up deleted as nobody "cares" about you in the wilderness. :) If the government, police or even corporations were recording our movements in the wild that would be an entirely different story.BTW If you're really concerned about having your picture taken, which it unfortunately is done many, many times daily when you enter any kind of urban environment, don't shoot some guys trail cam (or smash it Brent) you can just open it up and delete your picture off of the card.Just my 2 certs worth. :)| 32793|32732|2015-08-01 00:39:00|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|For interior, you do not need accurate 3D model of the hull. Just take hull lines from the plans and connect it where you want it by straight lines with off-set (let say 3" toward centerline. You will get your interior frame.You will need some space between the hull (or foaming) for air circulation between the hull and interior to prevent mold. Extra space will allow you to compensate some variations in the hull shape.| 32794|32772|2015-08-01 00:50:21|wild_explorer|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|I am looking for the ideas how to insulate steel bulkhead and watertight steel/metal door to prevent condensation on the bulkhead and the door.Especially important contact points of the door_frame, door, handles. How is it done on the pilothouse for example?Anyone?| 32795|32777|2015-08-01 13:50:37|aguysailing|Re: Not about building a boat|This is copied from a Bushnell Advertisment: "The woods no longer call, they text. Images are sent directly to your phone, tablet or computer for up-to-the-minute scouting information from wherever you hang this camera." A days hunting will soon involve drones, trail cams, miniature trail cams, multiple trail cams, networking trail cams.  Rifles and scopes good tech and insures quick kills.  Invasion of the worst of consumer culture onto crown land has gotta end. R.I.P. the woods as a place of nature otherwise. Trail cams now banned in some US locations...6 yrs ago saw the first one ...no problem.   Now in the Alberni area where I hunt I see them every outing and even mulitple cams effectively a "turf" claim on crown land.  The rat race has no place in the woods.  This is all spy tech... I do not like the new vibe of a day hunting.  Nastiness of consumer culture is taking the hunt out of hunting.  If not regulated...well, open season....no apologies.| 32796|32732|2015-08-02 02:14:25|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|I don't think you have hull lines from Brent design, but just sheet shapes to be formed.Alex2015-08-01 6:38 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   For interior, you do not need accurate 3D model of the hull. Just take hull lines from the plans and connect it where you want it by straight lines with off-set (let say 3" toward centerline. You will get your interior frame.You will need some space between the hull (or foaming) for air circulation between the hull and interior to prevent mold. Extra space will allow you to compensate some variations in the hull shape. | 32797|32732|2015-08-02 02:20:09|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|Has anybody tried to unfold an half hull to check if the sheet has permanent deformations?Alex2015-07-30 3:27 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   He probably meant "not truly developable surfaces".Developable surface means, that you can simply make the shape from the sheet by applying the force in one direction only (usually without permanent deformation of the sheet). Like making a cylinder from rectangular sheet (or cone from cut sheet). Simple example of such boat is full length hard chine boat made from continuous sheets. You just shape the sheet by applying the force in one direction. Similar to a making a hull from full length overlapping wood planks (without a twist).Origamiboat has compound shape (non-developable surfaces). Especially near the dart points it will have permanent deformation of the plate in several directions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry Gary, I don't clearly understand when you say: "So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet".Could you clarify?Alex2015-07-25 21:06 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :  I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet. Gary H. Lucas  | 32798|32732|2015-08-02 02:30:43|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|So, it seems that origami construction method is perfect for quick and cheap serial production as accurate as fiberglass.I wonder why it doesen't exist (or maybe yes and I don't know) an industrial production made by steel or aluminium.Alex2015-08-01 6:38 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   For interior, you do not need accurate 3D model of the hull. Just take hull lines from the plans and connect it where you want it by straight lines with off-set (let say 3" toward centerline. You will get your interior frame.You will need some space between the hull (or foaming) for air circulation between the hull and interior to prevent mold. Extra space will allow you to compensate some variations in the hull shape. | 32799|32732|2015-08-02 05:10:33|Hannu Venermo|Re: Softwear|Because us people dont buy steel boats. In france, sailboats are made in alu. Some steel sailboats are made in europe, especially holland iirc. On 02/08/2015 08:29, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > So, it seems that origami construction method is perfect for quick and > cheap serial production as accurate as fiberglass. > I wonder why it doesen't exist (or maybe yes and I don't know) an > industrial production made by steel or aluminium. > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32800|32732|2015-08-02 18:21:34|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|When I last time saw Brent's plans, hull lines were included in plan's package. You may want to ask Brent again or search the group to see what is included in plan's package.| 32801|32732|2015-08-02 23:44:26|wild_explorer|Re: Softwear|Half of my scaled model (which is in file section) got back to a flat shape. But... 1. This was MY (modified) hull2. I "stitch" it (not welded or soldered). It had some room to take correct shape and angle at the chine. Real boat will have some deformation at the edges (especially near hull's transition from the chine to a compound curve)3. When halves are joint, it will give another deformation on the centerline edges and additional force on the halves plates.As it was suggested before, make a scaled model from a steel or copper and solder it. Then cut it and report back to the group about your findings.P.S. I do not think that someone is willing to do such experiment on a real boat :)))---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has anybody tried to unfold an half hull to check if the sheet has permanent deformations?Alex| 32802|32732|2015-08-03 10:03:40|jay hand|Re: Softwear|Here is the answer on why commercial builders use frames. You may not agree but its the reasonMBQ - Fall 1996 Editorial - Metal Boat Framing       MBQ - Fall 1996 Editorial - Metal Boat FramingCustom yacht design services. Blue water yachts with 'modern-classic' design in steel, aluminum, fiberglass or wood.View on www.kastenmarine.comPreview by Yahoo | 32803|32732|2015-08-03 11:02:09|Hannu Venermo|Re: Softwear|Nonsense. ALL classificacion societies lika RINA, ABS, Det Norske Veritas, and so on have language that states something like "other methods proven to work are ok". Empirical evidence is specifically cited as being ok, iirc I read that from ABYC guidelines somewhere. This means that when brent boats have been built for 30 years, have sailed for millions and millions of miles, and been collectively proven, over 100.000 plus days sailed safely, that Brents *frameless origami boats are proven to work* even according to the classification authorities. The kastenmarine FUD is simply nonsense. There are other reasons, mostly having to do with money, why certain boats like metal boats (and wooden ones) are not more popular, especially in the US. Frames (may) have little to do with a boats strength, mass, or cost. But they may increase complexity and build time. This, again, is mostly not a real issue, as cnc cutting is cheap and easy these days. The hull is only about 10-20% of the cost of a typical yacht/boat. Increasing this cost even 50% via frames will only increase the total yacht cost by 5%. The biggest variant is "systems cost". This might be nominally near-zero, Brents approach (cedar bucket and analog compass). Or, on a typical Nordhavn, avg. spend on electronics is 150.000$, replaced on avg ever 8 years. Systems cost is usually about 40% of the yacht, about double the hull cost. "Systems" is all hotel loads, and comfort items. Plumbing, piping, cooking, refrigeration, wiring, electronics, other tankage than main fuel (holding tanks etc), and on and on. Its also highly dependant on what you want to do, where, and what you need or think you need. Living aboard in countries where e.g. holding tanks are legally required. Working. Kids. Insurance issues. And so on.. People mostly buy boats to spend time on them - and mostly dont sail them. 99% of all boats are in a marina, 99% of the time. As such, comfort items and resale value are high in customers minds. On 03/08/2015 16:03, jay hand zolotoyritsar@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Here is the answer on why commercial builders use frames. You may not > agree but its the reason -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32804|32732|2015-08-03 19:00:52|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|i just leave the  inside edges of the bulkheads long, and trim them after they are in.| 32805|32732|2015-08-03 19:06:37|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|Yes, and it lay as flat as the original. When we  cut the excess of the stern, beyond the transom, it maintains a bit of curve.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has anybody tried to unfold an half hull to check if the sheet has permanent deformations?Alex2015-07-30 3:27 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :  He probably meant "not truly developable surfaces".Developable surface means, that you can simply make the shape from the sheet by applying the force in one direction only (usually without permanent deformation of the sheet). Like making a cylinder from rectangular sheet (or cone from cut sheet). Simple example of such boat is full length hard chine boat made from continuous sheets. You just shape the sheet by applying the force in one direction. Similar to a making a hull from full length overlapping wood planks (without a twist).Origamiboat has compound shape (non-developable surfaces). Especially near the dart points it will have permanent deformation of the plate in several directions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry Gary, I don't clearly understand when you say: "So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet".Could you clarify?Alex2015-07-25 21:06 GMT+02:00 gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] :  I’ve done some modeling of an Origami boat in Rhino 3D working from drawings I bought from Brent as a guide.  A couple of important details came out of that.  Brent’s concept is that the hull is mostly conic sections of differing radiuses.  I modeled it that way and the model comes together okay. However in the 3D model there is a hollow, a kind of a dent at both ends of the hull on each side. This is what you get when the sides are true conic sections.  So then I realized that in the pulling together process the steel actually achieves a compound curve, which accounts for why Brent’s boats don’t have that hollow. The problem is that 3D modelers don’t seem to be able to model with that distortion, and still be able to flatten the sheet for cutting.  Paper patterns that I cut out and taped together all show the hollow too.  So the origami boat is not truly a foldable flat sheet. Gary H. Lucas | 32806|32732|2015-08-03 19:09:32|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|The reason is it isn't done on a commercial basis, is because so many boaters tend to be an ultra  conservative lot, who are so often  assuming that the more complex and expensive you can make  a boat, the better job you are doing. Then they bitch about the high cost of new boats, while constantly attacking anyone who offers a solution to that problem.| 32807|32732|2015-08-03 19:15:18|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|Plans for my 31, 36 and 40 footer include hull lines , plate layout,deck layout, interiors, detail . windvane, materials , sail plan, ballast, structural , rigging,, etc etc, everything I could think of, needed to build the boat . No one has needed any  more info  than I include in the plans, and my book .  | 32808|32732|2015-08-03 19:50:20|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|That  article is by Michael  Kasten who has a major credibility problem( he is completely full of shit)On his own website he states that origami methods can not  be used on decks cabins, keels ,skegs rudders etc , `but they can only be used to build the hull.Anyone can go to the photos section, my book, and Alex`s video,  and see origami  methods being used on all these items.  Kasten is aware of this , as I have pointed it out to him, but continues to post his bullshit on his website, where questioning his bullshit is not pôssible.So he is fully aware that he is full of shit. When an organizer of the metal boat festival asked Kasten if he was coming he asked if I would   be there.  When he qas told that I may be there, he said there was no way he would show up If there was any chance that I would be there.  He simply doesn`t have the balls  to face anyone who understands origami principles , in front of a crowd where his bullshit could be challenged. He knows full well that he would quickly lose the argument and with it his credibility.Getting any èxpensive Èxpert advice`from such a sleazy bullshit pedlar would be a big mistake---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Here is the answer on why commercial builders use frames. You may not agree but its the reasonMBQ - Fall 1996 Editorial - Metal Boat Framing       MBQ - Fall 1996 Editorial - Metal Boat FramingCustom yacht design services. Blue water yachts with 'modern-classic' design in steel, aluminum, fiberglass or wood.View on www.kastenmarine.comPreview by Yahoo | 32809|32732|2015-08-03 20:07:03|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|Colvin estimates the time to build a 40 ft shell as 1,000 man hours. A 36 takes not all that much less time  than a 40 to pull together , and I have done it in 90- hours. Calculate the difference at $75 an hour shop time.Small percentage. Not likely!Opûs Paul said others, building in  traditional ways,  at the time he built his, said it would have saved them about  a year. A year of hard labour saved. Small change, 5%!Bullshit!My boats are designed for serious , full time cruisers, not marina queens.I don``t cater to childish snobbery.Mine cost  me around $6 K, to be sailing and liveable. I dont see marina queens as bèing  snobby superior, just childishly pathetic.. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Nonsense. ALL classificacion societies lika RINA, ABS, Det Norske Veritas, and so on have language that states something like "other methods proven to work are ok". Empirical evidence is specifically cited as being ok, iirc I read that from ABYC guidelines somewhere. This means that when brent boats have been built for 30 years, have sailed for millions and millions of miles, and been collectively proven, over 100.000 plus days sailed safely, that Brents *frameless origami boats are proven to work* even according to the classification authorities. The kastenmarine FUD is simply nonsense. There are other reasons, mostly having to do with money, why certain boats like metal boats (and wooden ones) are not more popular, especially in the US. Frames (may) have little to do with a boats strength, mass, or cost. But they may increase complexity and build time. This, again, is mostly not a real issue, as cnc cutting is cheap and easy these days. The hull is only about 10-20% of the cost of a typical yacht/boat. Increasing this cost even 50% via frames will only increase the total yacht cost by 5%. The biggest variant is "systems cost". This might be nominally near-zero, Brents approach (cedar bucket and analog compass). Or, on a typical Nordhavn, avg. spend on electronics is 150.000$, replaced on avg ever 8 years. Systems cost is usually about 40% of the yacht, about double the hull cost. "Systems" is all hotel loads, and comfort items. Plumbing, piping, cooking, refrigeration, wiring, electronics, other tankage than main fuel (holding tanks etc), and on and on. Its also highly dependant on what you want to do, where, and what you need or think you need. Living aboard in countries where e.g. holding tanks are legally required. Working. Kids. Insurance issues. And so on.. People mostly buy boats to spend time on them - and mostly dont sail them. 99% of all boats are in a marina, 99% of the time. As such, comfort items and resale value are high in customers minds. On 03/08/2015 16:03, jay hand zolotoyritsar@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Here is the answer on why commercial builders use frames. You may not > agree but its the reason -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32810|32732|2015-08-03 20:11:52|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|This kind of childish, one upmanship snobbery, explains why  Waterline Yachts cost a quarter million dollars, with  no functional  advantage over my boats at a fraction the price.Pathetic!However. It couldn``t happen to a nicer bunch of folks!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Colvin estimates the time to build a 40 ft shell as 1,000 man hours. A 36 takes not all that much less time  than a 40 to pull together , and I have done it in 90- hours. Calculate the difference at $75 an hour shop time.Small percentage. Not likely!Opûs Paul said others, building in  traditional ways,  at the time he built his, said it would have saved them about  a year. A year of hard labour saved. Small change, 5%!Bullshit!My boats are designed for serious , full time cruisers, not marina queens.I don``t cater to childish snobbery.Mine cost  me around $6 K, to be sailing and liveable. I dont see marina queens as bèing  snobby superior, just childishly pathetic.. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Nonsense. ALL classificacion societies lika RINA, ABS, Det Norske Veritas, and so on have language that states something like "other methods proven to work are ok". Empirical evidence is specifically cited as being ok, iirc I read that from ABYC guidelines somewhere. This means that when brent boats have been built for 30 years, have sailed for millions and millions of miles, and been collectively proven, over 100.000 plus days sailed safely, that Brents *frameless origami boats are proven to work* even according to the classification authorities. The kastenmarine FUD is simply nonsense. There are other reasons, mostly having to do with money, why certain boats like metal boats (and wooden ones) are not more popular, especially in the US. Frames (may) have little to do with a boats strength, mass, or cost. But they may increase complexity and build time. This, again, is mostly not a real issue, as cnc cutting is cheap and easy these days. The hull is only about 10-20% of the cost of a typical yacht/boat. Increasing this cost even 50% via frames will only increase the total yacht cost by 5%. The biggest variant is "systems cost". This might be nominally near-zero, Brents approach (cedar bucket and analog compass). Or, on a typical Nordhavn, avg. spend on electronics is 150.000$, replaced on avg ever 8 years. Systems cost is usually about 40% of the yacht, about double the hull cost. "Systems" is all hotel loads, and comfort items. Plumbing, piping, cooking, refrigeration, wiring, electronics, other tankage than main fuel (holding tanks etc), and on and on. Its also highly dependant on what you want to do, where, and what you need or think you need. Living aboard in countries where e.g. holding tanks are legally required. Working. Kids. Insurance issues. And so on.. People mostly buy boats to spend time on them - and mostly dont sail them. 99% of all boats are in a marina, 99% of the time. As such, comfort items and resale value are high in customers minds. On 03/08/2015 16:03, jay hand zolotoyritsar@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Here is the answer on why commercial builders use frames. You may not > agree but its the reason -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32811|32772|2015-08-04 01:27:07|wild_explorer|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|I was making doublers for an aft bulkhead and used 3/16x4x12" strips. By mistake I used 2" cuts instead of 3". It turned out that 2" cuts follows compound curve much easier, and it is possible to change the shape of the strip (by spreading the ends) to follow bigger radius of the curve.Making a Doubler:Take 3/16x4" strip about 12" long. Score every 2". Cut on scored line with 1/16" cutting wheel, leaving about 3/8" of uncut metal at the end facing smaller radius of the compound curve. Score that uncut metal half of the thickness (for easier bending) with cutting wheel. Spread the ends by a flat screwdriver (or similar) to follow the bulkhead line offset on the hull. Bend/twist 2" tabs to follow compound curve.Be sure you have good fitting between the strips to avoid welding to the hull horizontally. Use inserts (after tacking) where the gap is too big between tabs after spreading.Welding:Tack weld every 2" tab NEXT to its 4 corners, starting from the side which has 3/8 of uncut metal. Use 3/32" 6011 @ 75A. After tacking one 2" tab, move to the next. Adjust the position of untacked tabs if necessary by tapping on the sides of the tabs with the welding hammer. Apply some force if necessary to fit/press the tab (or its corners) to the hull.After tacking all tabs, weld the sides between tacks for each tab one by one. DO NOT weld cuts!!! Shrinkage will move the tabs a little. After welding the sides, tack the cuts starting at the opposite end of 3/8 metal leftover, than the middle. After tacking of all cuts, weld the sides of the cuts. When all sides are welded, weld the cuts from the center to the ends. DO NOT weld through the cuts to the hull. Let the weld to cool off completely.I found that this gives minimal distortion. Even less than on longitudinal stringers and it can be grounded off easily for painting.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am looking for the ideas how to insulate steel bulkhead and watertight steel/metal door to prevent condensation on the bulkhead and the door.Especially important contact points of the door_frame, door, handles. How is it done on the pilothouse for example?Anyone?| 32812|32772|2015-08-04 01:30:58|wild_explorer|Re: Marking and doublers for steel bulkhead|Any suggestions on insulating the bulkhead and the door (metal)?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am looking for the ideas how to insulate steel bulkhead and watertight steel/metal door to prevent condensation on the bulkhead and the door.Especially important contact points of the door_frame, door, handles. How is it done on the pilothouse for example?Anyone?| 32813|32732|2015-08-04 03:49:09|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|"Systems cost is usually about 40% of the yacht, about double the hull cost. "Systems" is all hotel loads, and comfort items. Plumbing, piping, cooking, refrigeration, wiring, electronics, other tankage than main fuel (holding tanks etc), and on and on". This is true, but not for mass production like Beneteau, Bavaria, Hunter....and so on, let say under 40/45 feet. Since many years we can assist, due to the huge boat yards competition, due to the necessity to keep producing, due to the global crisis and due to the intention to reach a majority of potential buyers, to a simplification of the yacht, as a concept.You can then get it "complicated" purchaseing several and different additional packages doubling the cost. It's up to you.But the evidence is that the basic yacht is quite simple and economical to buy and ready to go or stayng in a harbour (more or less).There is also something else comeing up. For decades any kind of sailing yacht, motor yacht, dinghy, canoe...everything floating, has been sold transmitting a message like if owning a yacht and running it, is simple, easy, and for everyone.Decades of high cost maintenance, efforts in energy, people seasickness, huge difficulty in selling, recovering expenses, couple divorces and human stupidity (99% man) which has involved family and friends in difficult situations over the sea, (there are not only blue water sailors but just poeple who wants enjoy the sea and the nature not in such extreme way)....well, I think have created a new and maybe more realistic, way to approach to the sea.I think semplicity and pragmatism will be soon the key. Not a philosophy, a way to sell.Alex2015-08-03 17:02 GMT+02:00 Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] :   Nonsense. ALL classificacion societies lika RINA, ABS, Det Norske Veritas, and so on have language that states something like "other methods proven to work are ok". Empirical evidence is specifically cited as being ok, iirc I read that from ABYC guidelines somewhere. This means that when brent boats have been built for 30 years, have sailed for millions and millions of miles, and been collectively proven, over 100.000 plus days sailed safely, that Brents *frameless origami boats are proven to work* even according to the classification authorities. The kastenmarine FUD is simply nonsense. There are other reasons, mostly having to do with money, why certain boats like metal boats (and wooden ones) are not more popular, especially in the US. Frames (may) have little to do with a boats strength, mass, or cost. But they may increase complexity and build time. This, again, is mostly not a real issue, as cnc cutting is cheap and easy these days. The hull is only about 10-20% of the cost of a typical yacht/boat. Increasing this cost even 50% via frames will only increase the total yacht cost by 5%. The biggest variant is "systems cost". This might be nominally near-zero, Brents approach (cedar bucket and analog compass). Or, on a typical Nordhavn, avg. spend on electronics is 150.000$, replaced on avg ever 8 years. Systems cost is usually about 40% of the yacht, about double the hull cost. "Systems" is all hotel loads, and comfort items. Plumbing, piping, cooking, refrigeration, wiring, electronics, other tankage than main fuel (holding tanks etc), and on and on. Its also highly dependant on what you want to do, where, and what you need or think you need. Living aboard in countries where e.g. holding tanks are legally required. Working. Kids. Insurance issues. And so on.. People mostly buy boats to spend time on them - and mostly dont sail them. 99% of all boats are in a marina, 99% of the time. As such, comfort items and resale value are high in customers minds. On 03/08/2015 16:03, jay hand zolotoyritsar@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Here is the answer on why commercial builders use frames. You may not > agree but its the reason -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32814|32732|2015-08-04 05:02:17|Hannu Venermo|Re: Softwear|Whatever we might like, or opine, about it, in the end the deciders are the buying public. On average, boats are getting bigger, with more systems, and with higher prices. I just went sailing for a daysail in santorini on a 50 ft Beneteau, and had a wonderful time. (Also diving off ribs, and for another daytrip in a 30 m wooden boat to the volcanic islands). Most boats do not cruise, and of those that do, most time is still spent in marinas. Partly, for the extra convenience and comfort, and partly because often you cannot or are not allowed to, anchor out for long periods of time. I agree with many or most of Brent Swains ideas. Yet, small, simple and basic is not a major market for boats - the average buying public wants something else. Where I agree totally, is that the the systems for cruising should be rugged, simple and reliable. Think "farm tractor" for cruising equipment rather than overpriced yacht store. Thus, the right stuff is something used on a work boat, or industrial systems rated for "harsh duty" or prolonged immersion. There is no real commercial market for real cruising boats of small size. The high end of the market does well, for the 1% who can afford them, led by Nordhavn, FPB, and lower end Diesel Ducks. I am sure some small yards make actual cruising boats, but thats maybe 1% or less of the market. I dont know of any manufacturers. For a cruising boat you would want long-term storage, large tanks and good large batteries, low power use, large PV panels, attention to things like waste storage, and attention to longer term self-sufficiency. The last thing you want is lots of "shiny kit", varnishes, maintenance headaches, rare components, expensive soft furnishings, expensive electronics, and so on. Every "cruising boat" ad is nothing like what you would actually want in the real world. In tests, consistently in just a 2-week atlantic crossing, about 1/5-1/10 of the boats have a major systems failure that would need expensive fixing. On 04/08/2015 09:49, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Decades of high cost maintenance, efforts in energy, people > seasickness, huge difficulty in selling, recovering expenses, couple > divorces and human stupidity (99% man) which has involved family and > friends in difficult situations over the sea, (there are not only blue > water sailors but just poeple who wants enjoy the sea and the nature > not in such extreme way)....well, I think have created a new and maybe > more realistic, way to approach to the sea. > > I think semplicity and pragmatism will be soon the key. Not a > philosophy, a way to sell. > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32815|32815|2015-08-04 19:01:43|wild_explorer|BrentBoat "Boot Camp"|A while back Alex Christie (who made "must to have" DVD about BrentBoat construction) had a good idea to invite the people who is interested in building BrentBoat, and actually build a bare hull in about 1 month.This idea died for some reasons (not enough people who was interested, no place to build, accommodation issues or something else - I do not know). I was interested.I hope we can discuss this idea again. I am building my boat at the last around DIY boatyard. Rent of the space is reasonable, there are several marinas nearby which allow live-aboard. Winter is OK here in NW Oregon (no snow, just rain, mild weather). This year it was almost no rain here during winter time. I know where to get NEW reasonably cheap steel around here with all needed certificates. I have some equipment and misc materials which I am using to build my boat. Boat yard has some equipment (forklift, sand blaster, big compressor, etc) we can rent. After building, we can launch the boat locally as well. I can ask around about accommodation. I think that some people may be willing to invest some money, spend 1 month to help and see how the real BrentBoat comes together.It would be a good idea to ask Brent to give the Master Class. I know, Brent does not want to visit USA on his boat, but may be Hidan would be kind enough to bring him over here on his boat (we need to ask Hidan if this is possible). This way, we can see Hidan's 36 footer, which was featured as a second hull built during the DVD's video taking, and have Brent here :)))We may need to think how to make it workable, but one solution is to make non-profit organization and build a boat with time-share (or other options). This way boat will belong to non-profit, and it will be much easier to track all the expenses and try to lower the cost of the build.Or... May be Brent can arrange something like that.| 32816|32732|2015-08-04 19:29:31|brentswain38|Re: Softwear|I design for the 99%,  commercial builders for the 1 %. How can anyone trust the math skills of anyone who cant figure out that 99% is a bigger number than 1%. Over the decades I have watched those building steel boats for the rich, at exorbitant prices, go bankrupt, time and time again. I'm still here, after building boats since 1980 for other people, and turning down more work than I ever did. Few could have afforded a good steel boat without my methods and help.   I just came back from a music festival on one of the islands. Most  were funky homebuilt boats ,in far greater numbers. Another month and all the stock plastic boats will head  back to the marinas, while their owners go back to work to pay for them, while the more practical continue cruising, out of sight of those who say that  stock, expensive boats are the only ones cruising .People who are actually getting of the treadmill while still young are going for ever smaller boats, while the consumerism slaves on the marina queens are oblivious to their existence.Everyone they know and associate with are fellow consumerism slaves.You keep repeating "daysails"We dont do daysails.More like several month sails.With their costs, daysails are all they can afford.These "deciders" decide on freedom over  snobbery.My kind of people!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Whatever we might like, or opine, about it, in the end the deciders are the buying public. On average, boats are getting bigger, with more systems, and with higher prices. I just went sailing for a daysail in santorini on a 50 ft Beneteau, and had a wonderful time. (Also diving off ribs, and for another daytrip in a 30 m wooden boat to the volcanic islands). Most boats do not cruise, and of those that do, most time is still spent in marinas. Partly, for the extra convenience and comfort, and partly because often you cannot or are not allowed to, anchor out for long periods of time. I agree with many or most of Brent Swains ideas. Yet, small, simple and basic is not a major market for boats - the average buying public wants something else. Where I agree totally, is that the the systems for cruising should be rugged, simple and reliable. Think "farm tractor" for cruising equipment rather than overpriced yacht store. Thus, the right stuff is something used on a work boat, or industrial systems rated for "harsh duty" or prolonged immersion. There is no real commercial market for real cruising boats of small size. The high end of the market does well, for the 1% who can afford them, led by Nordhavn, FPB, and lower end Diesel Ducks. I am sure some small yards make actual cruising boats, but thats maybe 1% or less of the market. I dont know of any manufacturers. For a cruising boat you would want long-term storage, large tanks and good large batteries, low power use, large PV panels, attention to things like waste storage, and attention to longer term self-sufficiency. The last thing you want is lots of "shiny kit", varnishes, maintenance headaches, rare components, expensive soft furnishings, expensive electronics, and so on. Every "cruising boat" ad is nothing like what you would actually want in the real world. In tests, consistently in just a 2-week atlantic crossing, about 1/5-1/10 of the boats have a major systems failure that would need expensive fixing. On 04/08/2015 09:49, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Decades of high cost maintenance, efforts in energy, people > seasickness, huge difficulty in selling, recovering expenses, couple > divorces and human stupidity (99% man) which has involved family and > friends in difficult situations over the sea, (there are not only blue > water sailors but just poeple who wants enjoy the sea and the nature > not in such extreme way)....well, I think have created a new and maybe > more realistic, way to approach to the sea. > > I think semplicity and pragmatism will be soon the key. Not a > philosophy, a way to sell. > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32817|32732|2015-08-05 06:10:32|Alex Bar|Re: Softwear|  Whatever we might like, or opine, about it, in the end the deciders are the buying public.True. But what make the buying public decide is the market. If the market don't offer anything new the deciders will always choose the same things. On average, boats are getting bigger, with more systems, and with higher prices. I don't agree. That was some years ago, now boat yards are trying to introduce new smaller yachts.    Yet, small, simple and basic is not a major market for boats - the average buying public wants something else.The average buying public don't even Know that metal yachts do exist.   For a cruising boat you would want long-term storage, large tanks and good large batteries, low power use, large PV panels, attention to things like waste storage, and attention to longer term self-sufficiency. The last thing you want is lots of "shiny kit", varnishes, maintenance headaches, rare components, expensive soft furnishings, expensive electronics, and so on.A cruising yacht could be one making daysails for three months going far away.I think is time to stop about thinking to a yacht just for ocean crossing.   Every "cruising boat" ad is nothing like what you would actually want in the real world.Not in your concept of thinking about a cruising yacht.There are two extremisms: ocean crossing yacht, harbour mooring yachts. Anything in between? Alex  On 04/08/2015 09:49, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Decades of high cost maintenance, efforts in energy, people > seasickness, huge difficulty in selling, recovering expenses, couple > divorces and human stupidity (99% man) which has involved family and > friends in difficult situations over the sea, (there are not only blue > water sailors but just poeple who wants enjoy the sea and the nature > not in such extreme way)....well, I think have created a new and maybe > more realistic, way to approach to the sea. > > I think semplicity and pragmatism will be soon the key. Not a > philosophy, a way to sell. > > Alex -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32818|32818|2015-08-05 10:34:42|wild_explorer|1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I think that both sides are incorrect :)))Let see.. 1% of the population holds more than 50% of world's wealth. Which leaves 99%. Only less than 1% from 99% are able to get off the treadmill. So, money-wise it is easier to sell to a "reach" 1% than to a "cruising" 1%. The rest (98%), which is majority of the market, are listening what "reach" 1% tell them.Do not get me wrong Brent, this is just sad reality. Only <1% can see real advantage of industrial, fishermen's and farmer's practical approach for a cruising boat. 99% wants shiny toys.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I design for the 99%,  commercial builders for the 1 %. How can anyone trust the math skills of anyone who cant figure out that 99% is a bigger number than 1%....Skipped... People who are actually getting of the treadmill while still young are going for ever smaller boats, while the consumerism slaves on the marina queens are oblivious to their existence.Everyone they know and associate with are fellow consumerism slaves| 32819|32819|2015-08-05 15:36:14|aguysailing|Window sealants|After 10 yrs, several of my sika flex sealed plexi glass windows are leaking sufficient to want to re-seal them.  Just wondering if anything better than sika flex has shown up since then.  Remarks about how to and with what appreciated.  thanks...Gary| 32820|32819|2015-08-05 18:42:54|Brian Stannard|Re: Window sealants|Dow 795 On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:36 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   After 10 yrs, several of my sika flex sealed plexi glass windows are leaking sufficient to want to re-seal them.  Just wondering if anything better than sika flex has shown up since then.  Remarks about how to and with what appreciated.  thanks...Gary -- CheersBrian | 32821|32819|2015-08-05 20:31:29|brentswain38|Re: Window sealants|I just bought some sika flex primer. Expensive, but I have hoped the connection between sika and plexi would be better with it and solve the problem. It may allow you to use any you want bedding over it , as it was connection with the  plexi which was the problem. I will soon find out.| 32822|32818|2015-08-05 20:41:57|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|  I have always preferred dealing  with intelligent, resourceful, practical people , not copiers, and have found that there are more than enough of them to provide enough work for me and all my friends. I have no interest  in helping the copiers, who simply copy the masses, to avoid having to think independently. I provide an affordable, well proven alternative , then let them sink (in debt and life time running out) or swim. It's out of my hands from that point on. Besides, we wouldn't want such gullible half wits cluttering up our anchorages.Let see 1% of 7 billion people! That's a hell of a lot of work, more than we would  ever want to do.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I think that both sides are incorrect :)))Let see.. 1% of the population holds more than 50% of world's wealth. Which leaves 99%. Only less than 1% from 99% are able to get off the treadmill. So, money-wise it is easier to sell to a "reach" 1% than to a "cruising" 1%. The rest (98%), which is majority of the market, are listening what "reach" 1% tell them.Do not get me wrong Brent, this is just sad reality. Only <1% can see real advantage of industrial, fishermen's and farmer's practical approach for a cruising boat. 99% wants shiny toys.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I design for the 99%,  commercial builders for the 1 %. How can anyone trust the math skills of anyone who cant figure out that 99% is a bigger number than 1%....Skipped... People who are actually getting of the treadmill while still young are going for ever smaller boats, while the consumerism slaves on the marina queens are oblivious to their existence.Everyone they know and associate with are fellow consumerism slaves| 32823|32819|2015-08-05 23:10:29|opuspaul|Re: Window sealants|I used the Sika on some dodger windows.  It is good stuff but it is very expensive.   The primer is a  must and even more expensive than the sealant.  Long term, it is effected by UV so it is a good idea if you mask and paint over it.  If it is done right, it is very strong and there is supposed to be no need for fasteners.I have heard that 3M makes a special double sided tape that is easier to use and just as good as the Sika but I am not sure the part number.If there was a frame that was mechanically holding in the window, I would seriously consider just using a butyl sealant.Cheers, Paul| 32824|32819|2015-08-05 23:47:27|Brian Stannard|Re: Window sealants|One popular solution is to use the 3M tape (VHB tape) and Dow 795, a structural silicone. The tape keeps the acrylic in place until the 795 sets. No fasteners are needed. 795 is less expensive than Sika On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:10 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I used the Sika on some dodger windows.  It is good stuff but it is very expensive.   The primer is a  must and even more expensive than the sealant.  Long term, it is effected by UV so it is a good idea if you mask and paint over it.  If it is done right, it is very strong and there is supposed to be no need for fasteners.I have heard that 3M makes a special double sided tape that is easier to use and just as good as the Sika but I am not sure the part number.If there was a frame that was mechanically holding in the window, I would seriously consider just using a butyl sealant.Cheers, Paul -- CheersBrian | 32825|32818|2015-08-06 10:21:59|a.sobriquet|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|If I were to buy plans from you and build a Brent-Boat, that would make me a copier of you. But it I were a copier of you, then you wouldn't like me and would call me a gullible half wit. Seems like a no-win conundrum!  ;)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :  I have always preferred dealing  with intelligent, resourceful, practical people , not copiers, and have found that there are more than enough of them to provide enough work for me and all my friends. I have no interest  in helping the copiers, who simply copy the masses, to avoid having to think independently. I provide an affordable, well proven alternative , then let them sink (in debt and life time running out) or swim. It's out of my hands from that point on. Besides, we wouldn't want such gullible half wits cluttering up our anchorages.Let see 1% of 7 billion people! That's a hell of a lot of work, more than we would  ever want to do.| 32826|32819|2015-08-06 10:29:56|opuspaul|Re: Window sealants|Thanks.  That is the stuff I was trying to think of....Sika has a short shelf life which drives the price up and makes it very expensive.  If I was doing it again I would use the DOW silicone.   Sika seems to have the market cornered in NZ and finding the DOW products is difficult in NZ.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One popular solution is to use the 3M tape (VHB tape) and Dow 795, a structural silicone. The tape keeps the acrylic in place until the 795 sets. No fasteners are needed. 795 is less expensive than Sika On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:10 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:  I used the Sika on some dodger windows.  It is good stuff but it is very expensive.   The primer is a  must and even more expensive than the sealant.  Long term, it is effected by UV so it is a good idea if you mask and paint over it.  If it is done right, it is very strong and there is supposed to be no need for fasteners.I have heard that 3M makes a special double sided tape that is easier to use and just as good as the Sika but I am not sure the part number.If there was a frame that was mechanically holding in the window, I would seriously consider just using a butyl sealant.Cheers, Paul-- CheersBrian | 32827|32818|2015-08-06 11:37:57|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|This "cruising" 1% is only the POSSIBLE future customers. They live on the budget and know their financial situation may be even better than "rich" 1%. It is possible to build Origamiboat bare hull from new steel and launch it under 15K. That where economics got pretty dicey...Just look how many responds got the post about BrentBoat Boot Camp. So far - zero. I hope, weekend may change this number. This group has 2900 registered members. Means, that all those people were interested looking in the Pictures and Files section of this group (many more reading the group without registration). Let say, 10% are still active members. So... 290 people, zero interest.I know, it might be people from all around the globe. Let say, 50% of them from North America. Boat market is in the distress here. Asking price for fiberglass sailboat in good condition and > 30 ft starts at about 10K. It is possible to find some deals for 3-5K from distress sellers. Some people think that they will buy junk boat and use it to build their own. Usually, not worth it. Only during my presence at this DIY boatyard, several power and sailboats > 30 ft were simply demolished to clear the space. No much to recover - everything rusted, rotten, broken.There were only 4 metal boats (including mine) here: 37 Bruce Robert project, 27 ft sailboat built in Holland, mine and 1932 power boat (no economics involved to restore this one). Bruce Robert design finally ended up in a scrap yard - owner found suitable fiberglass sailboat and took off. Now only 3 steel boats left surrounded by rotting wood and fiberglass boats. There are not many small boats here - just for storage. Most fiberglass sailboats here are 40-45ft, full keel, ketch rig. Only recoverable thing from last demolished sailboat was cast iron ballast :( Again, it is a good idea to scrounge something if you have where to store it and find it locally and pick-up/deliver. I found diesel engine I could buy as a spare, but it is in East Canada and shipping will kill this deal. Steel for the hull may or may not cost you less than new one (depends on the location and availability). You need to KNOW where to find deals and will depend on your luck - which makes this approach not a good indicator of the true cost.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...skipped...Let see 1% of 7 billion people! That's a hell of a lot of work, more than we would  ever want to do.| 32828|32818|2015-08-06 12:06:04|Hannu Venermo|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|15K for the boat ? Impossible, if anywhere normal, like europe. E.g. tankage and and holding tanks are legally mandated- ie you cannot have a cruising boat without one. You can build just the bare hull .. but why would you. Even then, I dont think even 15k€ is possible for a hull, today. This means people who actually need to go there, and dont for example have a friendly boatyard next door with free space, free electricity, free tools, can pick parts from abandoned boats for free, etc. My opinion re:hull: Hull as in == hull, portlights, hatches, tankage for fuel, water and holding tanks, valves for same, fills, pumpouts, piping, engine mounts, shaft log, rudder shaft, hinges, seals or sealants/bedding, wiring, connectors, etc. Insulation. Paint. Likely to be around 20-40k€, today, in europe, for an 11 mm / 35 feet. Big variation because you coud build anything, for example if you had a metalworking shop, but it might be cheaper to just buy them. Big variation re: whats good and suitable and whats cheapest. And so on.. Tools likely to be around 8-10k. All tools and consumables required to build. Air, compressor, plasma cutter, welding rods, cutting and grinding discs and cutters, grinders, woodworking tools, etc. Any recent relevant experience from anyone in the US or europe ? On 06/08/2015 17:37, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > This "cruising" 1% is only the POSSIBLE future customers. They live on > the budget and know their financial situation may be even better than > "rich" 1%. It is possible to build Origamiboat bare hull from new > steel and launch it under 15K. That where economics got pretty dicey... -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32829|32818|2015-08-06 20:28:50|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|It is possible with correct project management (aka non-profit). Impossible to meet this price range for commercial boat yard, pretty hard for backyard boat-builder. But with the price of the steel today and a non-profit - it is a reality.Why to build power away bare hull (cheap used engine, water, fuel and waste tankage included)?Just because some people want to have something different inside than the stock boat. Let them do it on the water!If this is possible even for single build, it is even easier for several builds (cheaper material & consumables, same tools, same misc materials, proven set-up, etc.) It just need to know where to buy (or whom to ask) to save on the cost.Yep, you will not make any profit (it is non-profit), but you will have enough to pay your bills.Steel (new with certificates). Depends on where and how you buy it. Even for my project, direct salesman from big direct supplier was interested in my one-time order. Otherwise, you can save 10-25%.Paint is for sure not 20-40K for a boat. Yes, paint is expensive but only about $100-150/Gal.Tools will be much less than you quoted and it is need to buy it only ones and use over and over again. Some tools can be bought used (clamps, etc) for the fraction of the new price and even better quality than new. You might be surprised, but all this staff is cheaper here than in Europe. Used equipment (like cutting torches, gas tanks, welders, etc) can be found locally (from private parties or auctions) much cheaper than new. I see unbelievable prices once in a while for one-time deals (you just need to jump on such deals right away or someone else will).Consumables?I went to buy welding rods to a big welding supplier. Salesman gave me the price and I ask him "Why so much". He asked how I will pay. Cash. OK! We can do it as a business account... Price was HALF of the original. And this is not "over the counter" hardware store. They already had lower prices.Registration? Easy...What else?P.S. I was talking to a man who spent all his life working with wooden boats. He just check the surface with his hands for fairness. He has 45 ft wooden sailboat now. He wanted to take a look at my project. He walked around my hull (not a complete boat yet), put his hands on the steel and said "WOW!!!. How did you do it?". Well, there are some spots which need to be grounded off (stiffeners tacks and my bulkhead doublers welding) where the marks are visible on the zinc primer left from welding. He climbed on board and said "It looks even bigger inside than outside".I was really proud to get a compliment to my project from him (thanks to Brent for promouting this type of the construction).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :15K for the boat ? Impossible, if anywhere normal, like europe. E.g. tankage and and holding tanks are legally mandated- ie you cannot have a cruising boat without one. You can build just the bare hull .. but why would you. Even then, I dont think even 15k€ is possible for a hull, today. This means people who actually need to go there, and dont for example have a friendly boatyard next door with free space, free electricity, free tools, can pick parts from abandoned boats for free, etc. | 32830|32818|2015-08-07 10:54:40|Matt Malone|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?| Which 1% are we talking about here?The 1% who have a partner willing to go on a boat for more than an hour ?The 1% who have a breadth of practical skills ?The 1% who have the patience to sail instead of motor ?The 1% who will ever go out of sight of land ?The 1% who have bothered to acquire a fraction of the skills that might be useful in actually safely going out of sight of land?The 1% who will not just buy an RV, or a motorcycle, or an airline ticket and feel perfectly satisfied ?Or the 1% that has yet to figure out that the selling price of a finished home built boat is less than the total cost to build and equip it.   There are many ways to slice it.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 17:28:49 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?   It is possible with correct project management (aka non-profit). Impossible to meet this price range for commercial boat yard, pretty hard for backyard boat-builder. But with the price of the steel today and a non-profit - it is a reality.Why to build power away bare hull (cheap used engine, water, fuel and waste tankage included)?Just because some people want to have something different inside than the stock boat. Let them do it on the water!If this is possible even for single build, it is even easier for several builds (cheaper material & consumables, same tools, same misc materials, proven set-up, etc.) It just need to know where to buy (or whom to ask) to save on the cost.Yep, you will not make any profit (it is non-profit), but you will have enough to pay your bills.Steel (new with certificates). Depends on where and how you buy it. Even for my project, direct salesman from big direct supplier was interested in my one-time order. Otherwise, you can save 10-25%.Paint is for sure not 20-40K for a boat. Yes, paint is expensive but only about $100-150/Gal.Tools will be much less than you quoted and it is need to buy it only ones and use over and over again. Some tools can be bought used (clamps, etc) for the fraction of the new price and even better quality than new. You might be surprised, but all this staff is cheaper here than in Europe. Used equipment (like cutting torches, gas tanks, welders, etc) can be found locally (from private parties or auctions) much cheaper than new. I see unbelievable prices once in a while for one-time deals (you just need to jump on such deals right away or someone else will).Consumables?I went to buy welding rods to a big welding supplier. Salesman gave me the price and I ask him "Why so much". He asked how I will pay. Cash. OK! We can do it as a business account... Price was HALF of the original. And this is not "over the counter" hardware store. They already had lower prices.Registration? Easy...What else?P.S. I was talking to a man who spent all his life working with wooden boats. He just check the surface with his hands for fairness. He has 45 ft wooden sailboat now. He wanted to take a look at my project. He walked around my hull (not a complete boat yet), put his hands on the steel and said "WOW!!!. How did you do it?". Well, there are some spots which need to be grounded off (stiffeners tacks and my bulkhead doublers welding) where the marks are visible on the zinc primer left from welding. He climbed on board and said "It looks even bigger inside than outside".I was really proud to get a compliment to my project from him (thanks to Brent for promouting this type of the construction).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :15K for the boat ? Impossible, if anywhere normal, like europe. E.g. tankage and and holding tanks are legally mandated- ie you cannot have a cruising boat without one. You can build just the bare hull .. but why would you. Even then, I dont think even 15k€ is possible for a hull, today. This means people who actually need to go there, and dont for example have a friendly boatyard next door with free space, free electricity, free tools, can pick parts from abandoned boats for free, etc. | 32831|32818|2015-08-07 16:54:00|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Good point Matt. Which will give us what combined percentage of that 1% in reality??? You got the big picture... ;)))) Agree on the selling/building difference (in general) as well. If you cannot do it quick, you stuck with your project and increasing the building cost even more. That why there are so many unfinished projects around which sells for the fraction of the cost/spending involved.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Which 1% are we talking about here?The 1% who have a partner willing to go on a boat for more than an hour ?The 1% who have a breadth of practical skills ?The 1% who have the patience to sail instead of motor ?The 1% who will ever go out of sight of land ?The 1% who have bothered to acquire a fraction of the skills that might be useful in actually safely going out of sight of land?The 1% who will not just buy an RV, or a motorcycle, or an airline ticket and feel perfectly satisfied ?Or the 1% that has yet to figure out that the selling price of a finished home built boat is less than the total cost to build and equip it.   There are many ways to slice it.   Matt  #ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ExternalClass 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.ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1439376123 #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336 .ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1439376123ygrps-yiv-1276900336ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32832|32818|2015-08-07 18:11:29|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|         You wouldnt be following consumerism mas marketing, but simply folowing those who get off the treadmil much faster, and for far less. That would be intelligent.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If I were to buy plans from you and build a Brent-Boat, that would make me a copier of you. But it I were a copier of you, then you wouldn't like me and would call me a gullible half wit. Seems like a no-win conundrum!  ;)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :  I have always preferred dealing  with intelligent, resourceful, practical people , not copiers, and have found that there are more than enough of them to provide enough work for me and all my friends. I have no interest  in helping the copiers, who simply copy the masses, to avoid having to think independently. I provide an affordable, well proven alternative , then let them sink (in debt and life time running out) or swim. It's out of my hands from that point on. Besides, we wouldn't want such gullible half wits cluttering up our anchorages. | 32833|32818|2015-08-07 18:37:41|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|     Alex got his 36 together, some  detail, for around $17K Bare steel no paint or ballast. He p[aid me. Building it yourself would save a lot of money. nm There is no way  you could buy a new, bare hull for anywhere near that amounbt, unless you got realy lucky.The price has dropped since then.The main 100 gallon water tank was inMy composting head cost less than$50 for materials, legal anywhere.My sheet blocks cost me around $2 each and 20 minutes or les work each, to build.You couldnt make it to the ship swindler in less time.Cleats aroud $1, and take a few minutes each.A friend with a traditional CheoyLee, said a padeye cost him $45. I could weld one up in under a minute, for pennies.As my book and Alex's video show, you dont need a metal working shop, just a back yard.I have biult everyinthing from self stering to woodstoves to anchoir winches, in my cockpit, while sitting at anchor.Tools for the boats I havee built usually cost around $900,total.If you are willing to settle for old plastic , then that is definitely cheaper. If your heart is set on steel, and the dry comfort and  worry free cruising it offers, then building your own may be the only way to get a good one..---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :15K for the boat ? Impossible, if anywhere normal, like europe. E.g. tankage and and holding tanks are legally mandated- ie you cannot have a cruising boat without one. You can build just the bare hull .. but why would you. Even then, I dont think even 15k€ is possible for a hull, today. This means people who actually need to go there, and dont for example have a friendly boatyard next door with free space, free electricity, free tools, can pick parts from abandoned boats for free, etc. My opinion re:hull: Hull as in == hull, portlights, hatches, tankage for fuel, water and holding tanks, valves for same, fills, pumpouts, piping, engine mounts, shaft log, rudder shaft, hinges, seals or sealants/bedding, wiring, connectors, etc. Insulation. Paint. Likely to be around 20-40k€, today, in europe, for an 11 mm / 35 feet. Big variation because you coud build anything, for example if you had a metalworking shop, but it might be cheaper to just buy them. Big variation re: whats good and suitable and whats cheapest. And so on.. Tools likely to be around 8-10k. All tools and consumables required to build. Air, compressor, plasma cutter, welding rods, cutting and grinding discs and cutters, grinders, woodworking tools, etc. Any recent relevant experience from anyone in the US or europe ? On 06/08/2015 17:37, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > This "cruising" 1% is only the POSSIBLE future customers. They live on > the budget and know their financial situation may be even better than > "rich" 1%. It is possible to build Origamiboat bare hull from new > steel and launch it under 15K. That where economics got pretty dicey... -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32834|32818|2015-08-07 18:50:56|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|     Most of  my cients have had partners who were interetsed in the project and often as resourceful and practical as they, or even more so.I am meeting a lot of young women who dream of owning their own boat and cruising warm, far away places, a complete contrast to when I was younger.. Most of my clients pick up a lot pf practical skills,which  they would have never atained with out building a boat.Some  ( including young women) have gone on to aquire trades qualifications..I think you severly unberate their abilities to adapt.l earned as I went . No problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1529346043 #ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135 .ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1529346043 #ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135 .ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Which 1% are we talking about here?The 1% who have a partner willing to go on a boat for more than an hour ?The 1% who have a breadth of practical skills ?The 1% who have the patience to sail instead of motor ?The 1% who will ever go out of sight of land ?The 1% who have bothered to acquire a fraction of the skills that might be useful in actually safely going out of sight of land?The 1% who will not just buy an RV, or a motorcycle, or an airline ticket and feel perfectly satisfied ?Or the 1% that has yet to figure out that the selling price of a finished home built boat is less than the total cost to build and equip it.   There are many ways to slice it.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 17:28:49 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?  It is possible with correct project management (aka non-profit). Impossible to meet this price range for commercial boat yard, pretty hard for backyard boat-builder. But with the price of the steel today and a non-profit - it is a reality.Why to build power away bare hull (cheap used engine, water, fuel and waste tankage included)?Just because some people want to have something different inside than the stock boat. Let them do it on the water!If this is possible even for single build, it is even easier for several builds (cheaper material & consumables, same tools, same misc materials, proven set-up, etc.) It just need to know where to buy (or whom to ask) to save on the cost.Yep, you will not make any profit (it is non-profit), but you will have enough to pay your bills.Steel (new with certificates). Depends on where and how you buy it. Even for my project, direct salesman from big direct supplier was interested in my one-time order. Otherwise, you can save 10-25%.Paint is for sure not 20-40K for a boat. Yes, paint is expensive but only about $100-150/Gal.Tools will be much less than you quoted and it is need to buy it only ones and use over and over again. Some tools can be bought used (clamps, etc) for the fraction of the new price and even better quality than new. You might be surprised, but all this staff is cheaper here than in Europe. Used equipment (like cutting torches, gas tanks, welders, etc) can be found locally (from private parties or auctions) much cheaper than new. I see unbelievable prices once in a while for one-time deals (you just need to jump on such deals right away or someone else will).Consumables?I went to buy welding rods to a big welding supplier. Salesman gave me the price and I ask him "Why so much". He asked how I will pay. Cash. OK! We can do it as a business account... Price was HALF of the original. And this is not "over the counter" hardware store. They already had lower prices.Registration? Easy...What else?P.S. I was talking to a man who spent all his life working with wooden boats. He just check the surface with his hands for fairness. He has 45 ft wooden sailboat now. He wanted to take a look at my project. He walked around my hull (not a complete boat yet), put his hands on the steel and said "WOW!!!. How did you do it?". Well, there are some spots which need to be grounded off (stiffeners tacks and my bulkhead doublers welding) where the marks are visible on the zinc primer left from welding. He climbed on board and said "It looks even bigger inside than outside".I was really proud to get a compliment to my project from him (thanks to Brent for promouting this type of the construction).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :15K for the boat ? Impossible, if anywhere normal, like europe. E.g. tankage and and holding tanks are legally mandated- ie you cannot have a cruising boat without one. You can build just the bare hull .. but why would you. Even then, I dont think even 15k€ is possible for a hull, today. 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#ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1529346043 #ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135 .ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1529346043 #ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135 .ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1529346043ygrps-yiv-1334030135ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32835|32818|2015-08-07 19:07:56|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Most people have too busy lives ot quickly take time out for learning. Then they are scatered all over the continent, and taking time out for boat school would take a lot of planning.I remember being moored alongside a plastic boat from Conneticut , whos owner claimed to be interested in building in  steel.  At the time I was building a 36 right down the road, and invited him  to come and learn.He never got around to it. Later he hit a cargo container off Costa Rica and his boat sunk under him in minutes. Then he started planoing an origami steel boat for his next one.  Working with us for a few days would  have saved him a lot of time and trouble. This "cruising" 1% is only the POSSIBLE future customers. They live on the budget and know their financial situation may be even better than "rich" 1%. It is possible to build Origamiboat bare hull from new steel and launch it under 15K. That where economics got pretty dicey...Just look how many responds got the post about BrentBoat Boot Camp. So far - zero. I hope, weekend may change this number. This group has 2900 registered members. Means, that all those people were interested looking in the Pictures and Files section of this group (many more reading the group without registration). Let say, 10% are still active members. So... 290 people, zero interest.I know, it might be people from all around the globe. Let say, 50% of them from North America. Boat market is in the distress here. Asking price for fiberglass sailboat in good condition and > 30 ft starts at about 10K. It is possible to find some deals for 3-5K from distress sellers. Some people think that they will buy junk boat and use it to build their own. Usually, not worth it. Only during my presence at this DIY boatyard, several power and sailboats > 30 ft were simply demolished to clear the space. No much to recover - everything rusted, rotten, broken.There were only 4 metal boats (including mine) here: 37 Bruce Robert project, 27 ft sailboat built in Holland, mine and 1932 power boat (no economics involved to restore this one). Bruce Robert design finally ended up in a scrap yard - owner found suitable fiberglass sailboat and took off. Now only 3 steel boats left surrounded by rotting wood and fiberglass boats. There are not many small boats here - just for storage. Most fiberglass sailboats here are 40-45ft, full keel, ketch rig. Only recoverable thing from last demolished sailboat was cast iron ballast :( Again, it is a good idea to scrounge something if you have where to store it and find it locally and pick-up/deliver. I found diesel engine I could buy as a spare, but it is in East Canada and shipping will kill this deal. Steel for the hull may or may not cost you less than new one (depends on the location and availability). You need to KNOW where to find deals and will depend on your luck - which makes this approach not a good indicator of the true cost.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...skipped...Let see 1% of 7 billion people! That's a hell of a lot of work, more than we would  ever want to do.| 32836|32734|2015-08-08 07:23:10|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|Haiden, how many coats of wasser tar did you apply?| 32837|32818|2015-08-08 08:02:02|Matt Malone|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?| I have no doubt that as far as practical skills, and willing partners, those who have chosen origami have already selected themselves.   My point was, origami is suitable for a different small percentage than commercial boat builders cater to.   I know plenty of people who would find building anything impossible, who cannot interpret a technical drawing or read instructions for a piece of equipment, who do not know a Volt from a foot-pound, and only some of them are female.  Go to Walmart.  Go to a baseball game.  Look around.  Those are the 99% for whom origami is out of reach.  It is easy to sneer and say, if they do not have the competence or the potential for competence, they do not belong out there.   These are the same people buying bass boats, water ski boats and personal water craft that you see on the dock on Saturday morning.   Reduce it down to the complexity of driving a car, and they an handle it.  Commercial boat builders would say it is they who empower the other 99%, or at least the ones who can gather together the entry fee by earning money by any other measure of competency.   Do you think more people would be using computers if everyone had to build their own from a bag of chips ?   If you can, good for you, but don't pretend that 99% can.   Origami is a pretty exclusive club.  Those who complete and get out there have accomplished something that 99% simply could not do. >Or the 1% that has yet to figure out that the selling price of a >finished home built boat is less than the total cost to build and >equip it.If you are thinking about origami, think hard about buying an origami boat that has already been built.   You will make someone very happy, and all things being equal, you will be just as happy, spend a little less, and be on the water much sooner.   When all origamis are purchased, their value will go up to something closer to build and outfitting cost.  After that, those who sell origamis will be even happier, and maybe more people will choose to build a new one, confident they will get their money back from them.   All of this is good for origami.          MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:50:55 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?  Most of  my cients have had partners who were interetsed in the project and often as resourceful and practical as they, or even more so.I am meeting a lot of young women who dream of owning their own boat and cruising warm, far away places, a complete contrast to when I was younger.. Most of my clients pick up a lot pf practical skills,which  they would have never atained with out building a boat.Some  ( including young women) have gone on to aquire trades qualifications..I think you severly unberate their abilities to adapt.l earned as I went . No problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Which 1% are we talking about here?The 1% who have a partner willing to go on a boat for more than an hour ?The 1% who have a breadth of practical skills ?The 1% who have the patience to sail instead of motor ?The 1% who will ever go out of sight of land ?The 1% who have bothered to acquire a fraction of the skills that might be useful in actually safely going out of sight of land?The 1% who will not just buy an RV, or a motorcycle, or an airline ticket and feel perfectly satisfied ?Or the 1% that has yet to figure out that the selling price of a finished home built boat is less than the total cost to build and equip it.   There are many ways to slice it.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 17:28:49 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?  It is possible with correct project management (aka non-profit). Impossible to meet this price range for commercial boat yard, pretty hard for backyard boat-builder. But with the price of the steel today and a non-profit - it is a reality.Why to build power away bare hull (cheap used engine, water, fuel and waste tankage included)?Just because some people want to have something different inside than the stock boat. Let them do it on the water!If this is possible even for single build, it is even easier for several builds (cheaper material & consumables, same tools, same misc materials, proven set-up, etc.) It just need to know where to buy (or whom to ask) to save on the cost.Yep, you will not make any profit (it is non-profit), but you will have enough to pay your bills.Steel (new with certificates). Depends on where and how you buy it. Even for my project, direct salesman from big direct supplier was interested in my one-time order. Otherwise, you can save 10-25%.Paint is for sure not 20-40K for a boat. Yes, paint is expensive but only about $100-150/Gal.Tools will be much less than you quoted and it is need to buy it only ones and use over and over again. Some tools can be bought used (clamps, etc) for the fraction of the new price and even better quality than new. You might be surprised, but all this staff is cheaper here than in Europe. Used equipment (like cutting torches, gas tanks, welders, etc) can be found locally (from private parties or auctions) much cheaper than new. I see unbelievable prices once in a while for one-time deals (you just need to jump on such deals right away or someone else will).Consumables?I went to buy welding rods to a big welding supplier. Salesman gave me the price and I ask him "Why so much". He asked how I will pay. Cash. OK! We can do it as a business account... Price was HALF of the original. And this is not "over the counter" hardware store. They already had lower prices.Registration? Easy...What else?P.S. I was talking to a man who spent all his life working with wooden boats. He just check the surface with his hands for fairness. He has 45 ft wooden sailboat now. He wanted to take a look at my project. He walked around my hull (not a complete boat yet), put his hands on the steel and said "WOW!!!. How did you do it?". Well, there are some spots which need to be grounded off (stiffeners tacks and my bulkhead doublers welding) where the marks are visible on the zinc primer left from welding. He climbed on board and said "It looks even bigger inside than outside".I was really proud to get a compliment to my project from him (thanks to Brent for promouting this type of the construction).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :15K for the boat ? Impossible, if anywhere normal, like europe. E.g. tankage and and holding tanks are legally mandated- ie you cannot have a cruising boat without one. You can build just the bare hull .. but why would you. Even then, I dont think even 15k€ is possible for a hull, today. This means people who actually need to go there, and dont for example have a friendly boatyard next door with free space, free electricity, free tools, can pick parts from abandoned boats for free, etc. | 32838|32818|2015-08-08 08:11:13|Hannu Venermo|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I agree with Matt. I would, for myself, likely buy 1. a commercial trawler for refit 2. an existing origami, and then extend her Reason being what Matt said. Much faster as most important, save some money as second. Especially in the case of ex-fisheries trawlers, the savings are large and you already have commercial, rugged, industrial equipment. Does not mean its cheap, though. On 08/08/2015 14:02, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > If you are thinking about origami, think hard about buying an origami > boat that has already been built. You will make someone very happy, > and all things being equal, you will be just as happy, spend a little > less, and be on the water much sooner. When all origamis are > purchased, their value will go up to something closer to build and > outfitting cost. After that, those who sell origamis will be even > happier, and maybe more people will choose to build a new one, > confident they will get their money back from them. All of this is > good for origami. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32839|32818|2015-08-08 11:08:49|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|What does it make your second choice much different compare to a buying the "power away" origami hull?With existing boat, you may not like something and want to refit it. With a new hull, you make something the way YOU want it from the beginning - a saving on tearing something down (rigging, interior, etc).So, in case of "power away hull" you have a proven hull and be able to outfit it as you want it. You already on the water, you can move to the places where good deals are available and can afford to wait for a best deals around. Building a boat "as you want it" is a constant process until YOU are happy with what you got. I see many people changing something on the boats just because they want it (not because it is necessary).There was a company around here which was making bare hulls (fiberglass) for a long time. It was a good hull and people just loved that option. The key point was that they can do everything "my way" and get the feeling of building the boat by themselves.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I agree with Matt. I would, for myself, likely buy 1. a commercial trawler for refit 2. an existing origami, and then extend her | 32840|32818|2015-08-08 11:22:57|opuspaul|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Anyone who thinks they can build  a boat for less than the cost of buying one isn't looking at the used yacht market.    I sincerely doubt you could build a 36 for less than $20,000.  Anyone who does would be a great scrounger with free rent in a very good building situation.   Your time counts as nothing.   The boats used  available on the market aren't all tired old fiberglass boats either.  I have seen older steel boats at very good prices.... less than the price of the steel.   I know of somebody who just got a 30 foot steel boat built in Germany in the 60s that sailed to NZ.  I think he payed about $8000.  It may not be insulated inside but it has proven itself, is still solid and has nice lines.   They old used boats may not be perfect and be rough as guts with the need of some paint or some work but you could buy one and  spend a couple of years bashing your way through the tropics with relatively few problems.Wasn't there a great deal on and Origami 31 in Mexico a little while ago very cheap?  I think it was for less than $20,000 and was fully equipped and basically ready to go.  Here is one that is going for a higher price but you would be hard pressed to build and outfit one for this price.   And you wouldn't need to spend 2 or more years of your spare time building it.1991 Brent Swain Pilot House Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com   | 32841|32818|2015-08-08 17:34:21|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Agree on distressed boat market now. About 3 years ago, I was looking at 37??? foot aluminum sailboat which with asking price about $15K (no mast). Built by professional boatyard from set of plans from some designer. It had all invoices and receipts. According to paperwork, it was more than $100K invested in that boat. I do not weld aluminum and the shell was only 3/16". I already got my steel, or I would considering to buy it. That boat is long time gone. Not many 36-45 ft steel boats for sale here as well (pretty rare to find any), that why I am building one.Now, let us crunch some numbers....If you have big property which allows you to build (let say 36 ft. Origamiboat), AND you are not metal fabricator or welder, AND can work on it on the weekends only - it will take you about 5-7 years to build one. Cost will vary, but will not be less than 2-3 times of the steel price for the build.If you rent a space (at least here) it will be additional $200-500/month (depends on your luck). And only if you will be able to find such place at all which allows welding. So, for 1 year rent it will be $2.4K-6K/year. I got a better deal overall, but still it is the additional expenses.I was willing to pay Brent for tacking the boat, but he did not want to go to the USA at that time and I was not looking forward to go to the CAN and try to find place to build there. It would be financially justified to pay Brent for his expertise and done it much quicker.My project was put on hold for some extended period of time and I was making some excuses to myself.  Finally I said "Enough is enough, I need to finish it".Again, IF you do not have a property to build your project, OR not ready to work on it full time, DO NOT start it! Or you may end up with an unfinished project on your hands and become another distressed boat's project seller. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Anyone who thinks they can build  a boat for less than the cost of buying one isn't looking at the used yacht market.    I sincerely doubt you could build a 36 for less than $20,000.  Anyone who does would be a great scrounger with free rent in a very good building situation.   Your time counts as nothing.   | 32842|32818|2015-08-08 19:40:05|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Many have sold for far more than their building and outfitting cost. The trick is being resourceful and keeping that cost down.| 32843|32818|2015-08-08 19:52:45|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|As I have often pointed out , you can build 80% of your metal work detail and woodwork before starting the hull , without the need of a building site. Any space will do. You can do 80% of your scrounging at the same time. The more time you have to scrounge, the cheaper things will be.Then there is the option of buying a scrap boat for the gear. The last two boats started got their masts and rigs for free along with sails, etc. from boats which no one wanted.Such a supply of cheap or free gear  is exponentially greater than it was when Paul built his boat. Then there is the sheer enjoyment of building  a boat for yourself. As Evan once told me "I realized tat I am never happier than when I am working on my boat."I have also had clients who admit that, without their boat projects to spend their money on, it would have been long gone anyway, with nothing to show for it.| 32844|32818|2015-08-09 01:10:32|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I disagree on that remark about 80% metal and wood work...Let say, you live in an apartment. According to the idea to get off the treadmill, you should not own a home, car, etc. Where are you going to build and keep all this scrounged staff? Rent a place to build it and store? And than move it to a building site? Slim chance and extra expenses....Or "being resourceful" use someone place, car. etc? This is not being resourceful, this is just using someone.Getting something for free is nice, but you cannot count on it calculating the true cost of building, this is just reducing your own cost. It is possible (being non-profit) to get boat's  and gears donations, legally buy some scrap you need for the build, etc. Get discounts for rent and exclusive deals at government auctions.There is no free gears around here. Very few cheap. You may get very good deal ones in a while. You may get free SMALL boat, but you need to transport it and dispose it later (all for the extra fees). Do not even think about stripping it and abandon it around here. It would be more practical not to count on free staff, but to use average price of used one.I agree on the enjoyment of the building your own boat :))---In origyouamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :As I have often pointed out , you can build 80% of your metal work detail and woodwork before starting the hull , without the need of a building site. Any space will do. You can do 80% of your scrounging at the same time. The more time you have to scrounge, the cheaper things will be.Then there is the option of buying a scrap boat for the gear. The last two boats started got their masts and rigs for free along with sails, etc. from boats which no one wanted.Such a supply of cheap or free gear  is exponentially greater than it was when Paul built his boat. Then there is the sheer enjoyment of building  a boat for yourself. As Evan once told me "I realized tat I am never happier than when I am working on my boat."I have also had clients who admit that, without their boat projects to spend their money on, it would have been long gone anyway, with nothing to show for it.| 32845|32818|2015-08-09 04:29:14|Hannu Venermo|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Agree very much on all 4 points. Making stuff is a pleasure. More complex and expensive is actually more fun, as long as you have the resources and ability to finish. A boat is complex and expensive, with little limit at the upper end. Now finishing an industrial CNC milling machine, commonly known as a VMC. 2000 kg, steel, 1 micron resolution, from scratch. This is the 3rd evolution. On 09/08/2015 01:52, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Then there is the option of buying a scrap boat for the gear. The last > two boats started got their masts and rigs for free along with sails, > etc. from boats which no one wanted. > Such a supply of cheap or free gear is exponentially greater than it > was when Paul built his boat. > Then there is the sheer enjoyment of building a boat for yourself. As > Evan once told me "I realized tat I am never happier than when I am > working on my boat." > I have also had clients who admit that, without their boat projects to > spend their money on, it would have been long gone anyway, with > nothing to show for it. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32846|32818|2015-08-09 04:44:38|Hannu Venermo|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|If you are in the developed world, such places do exist. E.g. private garages, that for some reason cannot store cars temporarily. Storage spaces of all types. Add-ons to industrial or farm buildings. And so on.. Yes - they do add some small cost. Say the 1-2k for 1 year. As has been seen many times, time is a factor. Once started, its best to finish fast. As such, its cheaper to reserve 2 months, and then work on it full-time, preferably with a helper. Work may be a consideration here. A paid helper is a small additional cost, in the overall scheme of things. About 2-4 k for 2 months. Getting off the treadmill is not necessarily possible, nor always desirable. Lots of us do interesting useful stuff for ourselves, and enjoy it. In such a manner, we dont have a traditional "job". We also prefer to provide for our children in an interesting and positive manner, and this is relatively expensive. As long as we can, we would not like to stop doing so. Yet, cruising around the world is equally rewarding for small children, and they learn languages, mechanical aptitude, self reliance, cultures and responsibility. All wonderful things. I just think that the right age for doing so is 4 and up, and you also have to remember that at the end of the day, most time will be spent not moving. Then and there, what do you do ? And also importantly, how do you survive ? On 09/08/2015 07:10, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > I disagree on that remark about 80% metal and wood work... > > > Let say, you live in an apartment. According to the idea to get off > the treadmill, you should not own a home, car, etc. Where are you > going to build and keep all this scrounged staff? Rent a place to > build it and store? And than move it to a building site? Slim chance > and extra expenses.... -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32847|32818|2015-08-09 11:57:53|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Hannu, I agree with your last post, as well as with most Brent's recommendations. When you already have a boat - it makes all the difference. You are not in rush anymore, you can improve it as you go (you have shelter, storage, transportation). You can reach places (and deals) most people unable to reach.Building a boat (or getting off the treadmill if desired) requires VERY good planning. My point is, that someone considering building a boat MUST to understand all hidden costs involved (including time) and make choices which fits the best in his/her personal situation. Much less disappointments and surprises.I know, you can trade your skills to get "free" stuff and do all other cost saving tricks, but it are the variables which hard to predict (depends on the location, local market, good people, etc).| 32848|32818|2015-08-09 12:44:16|ANDREW AIREY|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Am I missing the point here.The original subject was the potential availability of commercially built origami hulls and I would have thought that the answer is fairly obvious,at least in the USA,Europe is different.For a commercial boatyard there isn't the profit in it,and they would probably want to supply a complete boat anyway.If you don't have a tradition of building in steel that complicates the issue.As I understand it the cost of the hull is a relatively small part of the overall cost of the boat but the handling and welding of the steel for itis a major complication.So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.They should have the necessary handling facilities(craneage and/or forklift trucks) and once the hull is complete you can then find somewhere to store it and complete the rest as you get time.They probably won't be working to 'leisure industry' profit margins either.Europe has different problems.Yes,we do have a tradition of steel boatbuilding in the UK and the Netherlands, largely centred around canal craft,but we also have the EU's Recreational Craft Directive,the compliance costs of which,for blue water boats,would be prohibitive.It is not all doom and gloom,because there is an exemption for traditional designs,which lets the Dutch off the hook,and self builds,provided you don't sell them for 5 years. About 50 years ago,at the start of the fibreglass revolution,quite a number of firms were offering hulls for completion in the 17 to 25 ft range,but that market dried up a few years ago,as did a brief flirtation with ferrocement in the larger sizes.So it's back to 2nd hand fibreglass or self build in wood or steel.The 30ft Wylo2 has had quite a bit of favourable publicity but noone in the comics seems to have heard of Origami.Perhaps an article in Practical Boat Owner would be a good thingcheersAndrew Airey| 32849|32818|2015-08-09 16:40:38|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Thankfully, I live in apart of the world were this is possible. A year before I started my current boat, much of my detail work and ballast were stashed in the bush. My mast, rigging, used sails and pre cut  interior were stashed under my parents trailer . It took me a month to build and weld the shell of my boat , then ten days detailing and another ten painting and ballasting her.  Another ten got her rigged and sailing.It took two days to rough  the interior in , one to have her foamed, then she was liveable.Garages can be rented , for building  detail parts , and storage lockers cost far less than a building site.Over most of North America there is a glut of used boats , with perfectly useable gear. for a fraction the cost of the gear on them.Shelter point marina will crush and scarp your boat for $1,000.Lots of takers. . Where does the gear  go? It is out there ,somewhere.I have been told that boaters exchange in Sidney BC  is overflowing with such gear. The owner is hoping to retire, so prices should be quite negotiable.| 32850|32818|2015-08-09 16:44:52|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I have suggested to clients that they buy a cheap  plastic disposable boat to have  a place to live aboard  cheaply. Its even better if the gear on the disposable  can be used on the new one. Rent saved can easily be more than the cost of the disposable, so she ends up owing you nothing.| 32851|32818|2015-08-09 16:55:57|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Some have gone to commercial shipyards for a quote. The quotes they got were completely ludicrous. One Vancouver shipyard quoted $80,000 for the bare shell of a 31. I did it for $3500 back then, in the early 80s. The gap between commercial quotes and reality is just as wide now, if not wider.Commercial shipyards have no hope of underbidding the "hire a pro to build it on your own site" , approach, which we have always used,.. Then, they assume it will take as many shop  hours as traditional, framed "imitation wooden boat building  " methods.One could always buy Tagish , if she hasn't been sold yet. Do a search under Tagish. Gord's boat is also a super good deal, especially  for  a new boat| 32852|32818|2015-08-09 18:44:55|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Well... Depends where you are...Personally, I can see only usable things worth to store (if you got very good deal) are:- mast & boom, rigging-sails- winches- engine & transmission- may be prop shaft & propAll the above is pretty bulky items (especially mast). Will be hard to store in urban area.Like Brent said, it might be better just to get similar size plastic sailboat and keep everything there (for example: 32 ft sailboat next to me is for sale <5K in OK condition). So, it may make sense to buy suitable sailboat just before you start your project. But, again, it really depends where you are. To be able to live on it (in urban area), you need to have marina which allows to live-aboard (not cheap).I do not see much of a point (in a big urban area) to rent a place to make and keep metal "detailing" (or woodwork). It just need to put all of metal part into a CAD program and go with your DXF files to a high production welding shop with CNC table and get it cut in about 2 hours (rate about $100/hr), and be done with your parts. Welding shop may even have better prices for new metal (due to the volume) than the scrap yard. Or you may buy some scrap from welding shop directly for a "buy" (not "sell") price. Weld all you parts together in several days and save on renting the storage.Many places do not want even hear about welding. Managers/owners are freaking out when they hear about welding. Both places I was allowed to weld had owners who were welders and knew that you can safely do you project if you are smarter than an average bear (extra water hose/backet next to welding area, removing/wetting flammable materials before welding, etc) Your best bet will be is to rent some outdoor space from local welding shop. Usually shop has outdoor power outlets, just put canopy to keep you from the weather.You can make your woodwork "as you go" (and make exact fit). At least that how I plan to do my wood work.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If you are in the developed world, such places do exist. E.g. private garages, that for some reason cannot store cars temporarily. Storage spaces of all types. Add-ons to industrial or farm buildings. And so on.. Yes - they do add some small cost. Say the 1-2k for 1 year. | 32853|32818|2015-08-09 18:56:43|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Actually, welding is not that difficult for Origamiboat. Just 6011, 7024, 7018 electrodes. 7024 & 7018 even cheaper here than 6011.It is much harder and MUCH slower to build a first Origamiboat boat (3-5 times slower). Welding shop will charge about $50/hr. Independent Contractors even more. So, compare to a $10/hr (for non profit volunteers for example) and doing it 3-5 faster is a BIG saving. Just need to find a place which have forklift/excavator & sandblaster you may rent as needed.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Am I missing the point here.The original subject was the potential availability of commercially built origami hulls and I would have thought that the answer is fairly obvious,at least in the USA,Europe is different.For a commercial boatyard there isn't the profit in it,and they would probably want to supply a complete boat anyway.If you don't have a tradition of building in steel that complicates the issue.As I understand it the cost of the hull is a relatively small part of the overall cost of the boat but the handling and welding of the steel for itis a major complication.So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.They should have the necessary handling facilities(craneage and/or forklift trucks) and once the hull is complete you can then find somewhere to store it and complete the rest as you get time.They probably won't be working to 'leisure industry' profit margins either.| 32854|32818|2015-08-10 10:51:20|Larry Dale|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|That's a really smart idea. With so many lightly build 70's sailboats reaching the end of their life due to boat pox or deck delamination of a cored deck. Repairing such problems is not worth it and makes a boat practically worthless. The problem that I see is that the deck hardware on those boats were also too light for the boat. Consider using deck hardware from a 36' plastic boat to build a 31' steel boat.  From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%? #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 -- #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 .ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-photo-title{ clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-photo{ background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-row { clear:both;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-row div { float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 p { clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-file { width:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-row div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193attach-row div div span { font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 div.ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-file-title { font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 -- #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193 #ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2114829927yiv9858179193ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2114829927 I have suggested to clients that they buy a cheap  plastic disposable boat to have  a place to live aboard  cheaply. Its even better if the gear on the disposable  can be used on the new one. Rent saved can easily be more than the cost of the disposable, so she ends up owing you nothing. | 32855|32818|2015-08-10 11:08:23|opuspaul|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|As long as used boats can be bought for less than the cost of materials for a new boat, it will never pay to build.   This is especially true when you count your labor and overhead like consumable items and rent that never appear in the finished boat.  The only reason to build is for the experience and to get something special that you really want.   This may be worthwhile, but I think arguing that you can make money in today's market is not being realistic.  Look at what is available used, you may  be surprised at what you can get.Not all fiberglass boats are cheap and disposable.   I have friends who have a fiberglass boat that is more than 30 years old.  It is tough as nails and has now done 3+ circumnavigations.   My first choice will always be a metal boat but I would be proud to own their boat, even though it is fiberglass.  It is just as good a boat now as the day it was launched.  Paul| 32856|32818|2015-08-10 11:46:37|Alex Bar|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Commercial boat yards wouldn't have a profit in selling origami hulls becouse the percentage of self builders is insignificant. But they could have an interest for the quick method. Yes, the cost of the hull is a small part of the overall cost but that is for the fiberglass too.Alex 2015-08-09 18:44 GMT+02:00 ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] :   Am I missing the point here.The original subject was the potential availability of commercially built origami hulls and I would have thought that the answer is fairly obvious,at least in the USA,Europe is different.For a commercial boatyard there isn't the profit in it,and they would probably want to supply a complete boat anyway.If you don't have a tradition of building in steel that complicates the issue.As I understand it the cost of the hull is a relatively small part of the overall cost of the boat but the handling and welding of the steel for itis a major complication.So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.They should have the necessary handling facilities(craneage and/or forklift trucks) and once the hull is complete you can then find somewhere to store it and complete the rest as you get time.They probably won't be working to 'leisure industry' profit margins either.Europe has different problems.Yes,we do have a tradition of steel boatbuilding in the UK and the Netherlands, largely centred around canal craft,but we also have the EU's Recreational Craft Directive,the compliance costs of which,for blue water boats,would be prohibitive.It is not all doom and gloom,because there is an exemption for traditional designs,which lets the Dutch off the hook,and self builds,provided you don't sell them for 5 years. About 50 years ago,at the start of the fibreglass revolution,quite a number of firms were offering hulls for completion in the 17 to 25 ft range,but that market dried up a few years ago,as did a brief flirtation with ferrocement in the larger sizes.So it's back to 2nd hand fibreglass or self build in wood or steel.The 30ft Wylo2 has had quite a bit of favourable publicity but noone in the comics seems to have heard of Origami.Perhaps an article in Practical Boat Owner would be a good thingcheersAndrew Airey | 32857|32818|2015-08-10 11:57:42|Matt Malone|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?| Step down the hardware.  Use the main hardware on the mizen on the steel boat.   A significant part of the value of a scrap boat is the lead ballast.   Some also come with good stoves or toilets. While I really like the idea of a steel boat a reasonable compromise is an old solid plastic boat, no core in the hull, no core in the decks.   The CSY boats are good but pricey.  There are others out there if you do your research.   The early 60s ones can often be had for less than the crap post 1973 (oil crisis, increase in resin cost) boats with core everywhere.  My first small boat was solid hull, top, cored cockpit.  My second, a small cruiser, was solid hull, cored deck and cockpit.  My third, an open ocean boat, is solid everywhere, except maybe two glassed-planks.  Careful, some solid boats have steel ballast not lead.   Some have all Monel deck hardware which is good, sometimes more brass which is also good.   Don't buy and old boat just for the hull, with the intention of ripping out the interior.   An origami build gets you a hull with no tear-out required.  One may elect to sell the solid boat in one piece.  On an ocean, a ready to go solid boat has resale potential for someone who recognizes it as an eternal boat with a little attention to barrier coats.   Except for those wrecked in hurricaines or burned in a cabin fire,  I would be very surprised to see anyone turn a CSY in for scrap.   Matt "Larry Dale roboman3234@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   That's a really smart idea. With so many lightly build 70's sailboats reaching the end of their life due to boat pox or deck delamination of a cored deck. Repairing such problems is not worth it and makes a boat practically worthless. The problem that I see is that the deck hardware on those boats were also too light for the boat. Consider using deck hardware from a 36' plastic boat to build a 31' steel boat.   From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%? I have suggested to clients that they buy a cheap  plastic disposable boat to have  a place to live aboard  cheaply. Its even better if the gear on the disposable  can be used on the new one. Rent saved can easily be more than the cost of the disposable, so she ends up owing you nothing. | 32858|32818|2015-08-10 12:30:50|opuspaul|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I am not a fan of balsa cored or honeycomb cored boats....too many rot problems if water gets in but PVC foam core boats have stood the test of time.  The first PVC foam cored boats built are still kicking around after more than 40 years with relatively few problems.  This is what my friends triple circumnavigation boat is made from.  Paulhttp://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArticles/KCTheCoreOfTheSandwich.pdf---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-983289173 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851 .ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}Step down the hardware.  Use the main hardware on the mizen on the steel boat.   A significant part of the value of a scrap boat is the lead ballast.   Some also come with good stoves or toilets. While I really like the idea of a steel boat a reasonable compromise is an old solid plastic boat, no core in the hull, no core in the decks.   The CSY boats are good but pricey.  There are others out there if you do your research.   The early 60s ones can often be had for less than the crap post 1973 (oil crisis, increase in resin cost) boats with core everywhere.  My first small boat was solid hull, top, cored cockpit.  My second, a small cruiser, was solid hull, cored deck and cockpit.  My third, an open ocean boat, is solid everywhere, except maybe two glassed-planks.  Careful, some solid boats have steel ballast not lead.   Some have all Monel deck hardware which is good, sometimes more brass which is also good.   Don't buy and old boat just for the hull, with the intention of ripping out the interior.   An origami build gets you a hull with no tear-out required.  One may elect to sell the solid boat in one piece.  On an ocean, a ready to go solid boat has resale potential for someone who recognizes it as an eternal boat with a little attention to barrier coats.   Except for those wrecked in hurricaines or burned in a cabin fire,  I would be very surprised to see anyone turn a CSY in for scrap.   Matt "Larry Dale roboman3234@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  That's a really smart idea. With so many lightly build 70's sailboats reaching the end of their life due to boat pox or deck delamination of a cored deck. Repairing such problems is not worth it and makes a boat practically worthless. The problem that I see is that the deck hardware on those boats were also too light for the boat. Consider using deck hardware from a 36' plastic boat to build a 31' steel boat.   From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%? I have suggested to clients that they buy a cheap  plastic disposable boat to have  a place to live aboard  cheaply. Its even better if the gear on the disposable  can be used on the new one. Rent saved can easily be more than the cost of the disposable, so she ends up owing you nothing. #ygrps-yiv-983289173 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-983289173 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-983289173 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-983289173 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ads {margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-983289173 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851 #ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-983289173ygrps-yiv-680259851x_ad {padding:0 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Or 1% vs <1%?|The value in a cruising boat is the use and knowledge you get out of her, and the peace of mind when cruising with your loved ones in a boat with a far better chance of surviving a collision.. If you are willing to settle for plastic , then buying a used one is a good idea. If your heart is set on steel,  there are not many good   options available around here. The Sleavins would all probably still be alive, had their boat been steel. For anyone concerned about the increasing amount of debris and shipping out there, even the best plastic boat is no match for a good steel boat, when it comes to odds of surviving a collision.Tagish just sold, rather quickly The surveyor said his asking  price was grossly under priced ,for such a boat .| 32860|32818|2015-08-10 16:59:41|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|For cruising these cold latitudes, any plastic boat needs a lot of  insulation. Stock, they are incredibly cold and clammy. It can be non structural and 2 inches of foam can make most plastic boats unsinkable. Most interior wood work has a buoyancy equal to its dry weight..An inch of foam will float 1/8th inch plate, 1 1/2 inches will float 3/16th steel plate. All it takes is a 50% overkill to float the engine and ballast.Moon Raven has 3 inches of foam, enough to float her| 32861|32818|2015-08-10 17:02:04|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I'm amazed that they could be so dense as to put balsa in a boat, assuming it would NEVER  get wet , when it is a non issue with foam.| 32862|32818|2015-08-10 20:31:38|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|The biggest problem is to find out if the ballast is actually lead. Many 40+ ft sailboats have cast iron ballasts. It is a gamble, if you do not know FOR SURE that boat has lead ballast. Plus expenses of getting rid of the boat (to scrap it).http://sailboatdata.com has some information what ballast was used on some boats and its weight  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 .ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}Step down the hardware.  Use the main hardware on the mizen on the steel boat.   A significant part of the value of a scrap boat is the lead ballast.   Some also come with good stoves or toilets. #ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 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#ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661x_ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661x_ygrp-text {margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661x_ygrp-text {font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-223925982 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661 #ygrps-yiv-223925982ygrps-yiv-1114447661x_ygrp-vital {border-right:none!important;}| 32863|32818|2015-08-11 00:36:41|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Forgot to mention that regular welding shop usually do not use stick welding anymore - working inside with GMAW now. Only outside construction welders still use it (and charge more). So, more likely you may not find the welders you need in ordinary fabrication shop. "Old timers", who still remember how to do it, will charge you extra.More likely, when you give them your time-frame to build a boat they will laugh at you, until they see how you have done it. I do not need to tell you how I know it ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.| 32864|32818|2015-08-11 03:06:04|Alex Bar|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Please tell us, how do you know it? Have you tryed to make your shall made by a professional boat yard?Alex2015-08-11 6:36 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   Forgot to mention that regular welding shop usually do not use stick welding anymore - working inside with GMAW now. Only outside construction welders still use it (and charge more). So, more likely you may not find the welders you need in ordinary fabrication shop. "Old timers", who still remember how to do it, will charge you extra.More likely, when you give them your time-frame to build a boat they will laugh at you, until they see how you have done it. I do not need to tell you how I know it ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap. | 32865|32818|2015-08-11 03:06:09|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Balsa was a dirtcheap bycatch they often had to cut down anyway to clear space for exploiting Sapeli, Khaya or other types of "mahogany", and any wood they cut down these days was better cherished for different sorts of use back then, so even the cheaper species weren't burnt immediately out in the (recent) woods but brought to market.On the other hand, "foam" was mostly polystyrene in the balsa days, which is, in any way, by far the worst crap You can ever place inside a grp-sandwich construction You plan to sit ontop afterwards, surrounded by a noteworthy amount of salty water and doing "cruising" aka not doing any maintenance as long as it's not leaking tremendously. All those fancy sorts of polyurethane and pvc foams we can happily fool around with today only were developed after they slowly savvied what serious downsides a wood with the density of balsa brought with itself if placed inside a handlayed or even just sprayed snotty grp sandwich.And: where boatbuilders bought their sapeli and khaya, their teak and locust and meranti, there was balsa lying around all over the place as well back then, and did not cost an arm and a leg, compared to the better loved boatbuilding varieties of wood.So even if some (like Cheoy Lee or Abeking & Rasmussen for example) shipyards in deed put real teak inside their first generation sandwich composite laminates, the majority of boatbuilders preferred the lower density balsa for its price and last not least for the weight it did not have. From todays point of view definitely a pretty bad idea and an absolute no-no, though, harebrained like lobotomy as a cure or like the idea of "nuclear power".Am 10.08.2015 um 23:02 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   I'm amazed that they could be so dense as to put balsa in a boat, assuming it would NEVER  get wet , when it is a non issue with foam. | 32866|32818|2015-08-11 08:12:23|Matt Malone|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?| Use a super magnet -- you can feel the tug of steel even a couple of inches away.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:31:38 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?   The biggest problem is to find out if the ballast is actually lead. Many 40+ ft sailboats have cast iron ballasts. It is a gamble, if you do not know FOR SURE that boat has lead ballast. Plus expenses of getting rid of the boat (to scrap it).http://sailboatdata.com has some information what ballast was used on some boats and its weight  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Step down the hardware.  Use the main hardware on the mizen on the steel boat.   A significant part of the value of a scrap boat is the lead ballast.   Some also come with good stoves or toilets. | 32867|32818|2015-08-11 10:04:03|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I guess, it is possible if you have the type with a label "Do not put your hands between magnet and metal" ;)  Super magnets from modern computer's  hard drives are small and may not work well. 5" drives from a very old desktops (10-15 years old) may have better ones.Problem: The iron ballast is usually encapsulated in about 2-4" of concrete/cement. Last demolished Formosa had about that amount of cement all around cast iron ballast.I need to try (on Cheoy Lee 32 for sale) if 50Lb retrieving  magnet will work from the outside of the keel. That boat, according to my online search, should have an iron ballast. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-109231207 #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267 .ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-109231207 #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267 .ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Use a super magnet -- you can feel the tug of steel even a couple of inches away.  Matt  #ygrps-yiv-109231207 #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267 .ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-109231207 #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267 .ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-109231207 #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267 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#ygrps-yiv-109231207 #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267 .ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-109231207ygrps-yiv-716484267ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32868|32818|2015-08-11 11:08:43|Matt Malone|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?| This is they type of magnet I was talking about:http://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-Big-Large-N52-Strong-Neodymium-40-x-40-x-20mm-Rare-Earth-Block-Fridge-Magnet-/311375274368I got some similar ones at a surplus/electronics/gadget store for like $3 each.  They came from some massive tape or disk drive.   There is cement around steel ballast..... that is news to me.  I guess cement has always been cheaper than resin, and, when the steel ballast is lowered into the hull, something has to take up the space between the hole and the plug.   That is very helpful to know Wild.  I will keep an eye out for cement in my newest to me boat.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:04:02 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?   I guess, it is possible if you have the type with a label "Do not put your hands between magnet and metal" ;)  Super magnets from modern computer's  hard drives are small and may not work well. 5" drives from a very old desktops (10-15 years old) may have better ones.Problem: The iron ballast is usually encapsulated in about 2-4" of concrete/cement. Last demolished Formosa had about that amount of cement all around cast iron ballast.I need to try (on Cheoy Lee 32 for sale) if 50Lb retrieving  magnet will work from the outside of the keel. That boat, according to my online search, should have an iron ballast. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Use a super magnet -- you can feel the tug of steel even a couple of inches away.  Matt  | 32869|32818|2015-08-11 11:39:20|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Do you want short or long version? OK, medium one... Will try to skip details.There are about 3 professional boatyard left in this area (was whole bunch about 20-30 years ago). One fixing ocean ships, one making tags, one making barges. That is all. None of these yards were interested to rent me a space to build a boat. There are old ship yards around, but it is not allowed to build boats on it anymore (banned by environmental agency). One DIY boat yard (went out of business already) wanted me to get an insurance for welding. Which was VERY expensive and almost impossible to get without registering the company.After extensive search (companies, farmers, etc), I found welding shop which had a big yard and gave me a reasonable price for renting outside space to build a boat. The owner is very smart guy who treat his employes as a family and rarely takes people "from the street". He was using all kind of saving measures to be competitive in bidding for government contracts and was interested to see how 1 man can build a boat by himself. We talked about building process and I told him that I plan to build a boat in about 2 years. He laughed and said "I give you a good deal on the rent because you are not going anywhere for at least 5 years."I skept about 2-3 month of useful time due to weather, redoing something, re-leveling the hull because of heavy machinery traffic around, etc. The shop helped me to unload the steel, and I borrowed a forklift ones to put footwell on (it saved me about 2-3 days). Otherwise I did everything with my tools on hands and myself (sometime I had volunteer helper who was interested in Origamiboat building, but it was more about how to do something) .I had to move my hull after 1 year to another location  because of height restrictions for the load's (carried by moving truck's) in that area. I did not even put the keel, cabin and pilothouse on the hull because of it.I asked the owner again (before moving out) if the shop can build the shell for Origami boat after watching my progress. He said "Well, looking how you done it, I think we can do it in about 2 month with 2 people. Especially after watching you rotating the hull just by your hands. I thought you will need a big crane to do that" :))I put my project on hold for another 2 years (doing nothing) and now it is time to start working on it again.And that how I know pro and cons of the welding shop ;) Only welders using electrodes there were couple of guys who were using welding trucks and doing installation/assembly of the structures (welded at the shop) at the work sites.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Please tell us, how do you know it? Have you tryed to make your shall made by a professional boat yard?Alex2015-08-11 6:36 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :  Forgot to mention that regular welding shop usually do not use stick welding anymore - working inside with GMAW now. Only outside construction welders still use it (and charge more). So, more likely you may not find the welders you need in ordinary fabrication shop. "Old timers", who still remember how to do it, will charge you extra.More likely, when you give them your time-frame to build a boat they will laugh at you, until they see how you have done it. I do not need to tell you how I know it ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.| 32870|32818|2015-08-11 11:54:24|Hannu Venermo|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|More or less where in the world are You ? On 11/08/2015 17:39, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Do you want short or long version? OK, medium one... Will try to skip > details. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32871|32818|2015-08-11 12:00:07|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Yep. Usually, cast iron ballast is one piece with less than perfect shape (due to cheap casting in the shop). Plus the variations of the inside dimensions of the keel. So, ballast is designed undersized.I was told that the process is to put some spacer blocks at the bottom of the keel, lower the ballast, position it spaced from the sides (fore, aft) of the keel and fill the voids with cement/concrete all around the ballast for perfect fit and prevent it from moving.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2006296661 #ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495 .ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2006296661 #ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495 .ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}There is cement around steel ballast..... that is news to me.  I guess cement has always been cheaper than resin, and, when the steel ballast is lowered into the hull, something has to take up the space between the hole and the plug.   That is very helpful to know Wild.  I will keep an eye out for cement in my newest to me boat.  #ygrps-yiv-2006296661 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.ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2006296661 #ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495 .ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2006296661ygrps-yiv-1538894495ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32872|32818|2015-08-11 12:07:21|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|USA, NW part of Oregon (biggest city nearby Portland, OR).---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :More or less where in the world are You ? | 32873|32818|2015-08-11 12:20:49|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Further to this discussion; when I poured the ballast for my BS40, I Placed a SS beer keg in the hull with the control valve (2.5") over the keel. Two Tiger Torches heated the lead in the keg and when all was liquid, opened the valve for a flow that equalled the melt rate. Took about 8 hrs to complete the pour. After it cooled (and shrunk) I made one more small "pour" to make a snug fit. When fully cooled, I welded the top in place. Added a 1/2" plug in the cap and topped up with oil (to deter any corrosion. GordSent from my iPhone On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:00 AM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yep. Usually, cast iron ballast is one piece with less than perfect shape (due to cheap casting in the shop). Plus the variations of the inside dimensions of the keel. So, ballast is designed undersized.I was told that the process is to put some spacer blocks at the bottom of the keel, lower the ballast, position it spaced from the sides (fore, aft) of the keel and fill the voids with cement/concrete all around the ballast for perfect fit and prevent it from moving.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :There is cement around steel ballast..... that is news to me.  I guess cement has always been cheaper than resin, and, when the steel ballast is lowered into the hull, something has to take up the space between the hole and the plug.   That is very helpful to know Wild.  I will keep an eye out for cement in my newest to me boat.  | 32874|32818|2015-08-11 17:05:17|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I once built a boat in a sheet metal shop which ad all the wire feed welders you could ask for. The short leads were such a pain in the ass for puling the  hull up, that we parked a gas driven stick welder outside the door and did it with that one, to avoid constantly having to move the wire feed welders.  Only after the shell was together did the wire feed welders prove usefull for the full welding. People who have asked a fabrication shop for  a quote, got the ridiculously high quotes I mentioned.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Forgot to mention that regular welding shop usually do not use stick welding anymore - working inside with GMAW now. Only outside construction welders still use it (and charge more). So, more likely you may not find the welders you need in ordinary fabrication shop. "Old timers", who still remember how to do it, will charge you extra.More likely, when you give them your time-frame to build a boat they will laugh at you, until they see how you have done it. I do not need to tell you how I know it ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.| 32875|32818|2015-08-11 17:13:13|brentswain38|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|When I rented a place to build my boat, the boatyard owner asked how long I would be there. I said "About 6 weeks." He said "Just a little one?" I said  "A 31 footer ." He rolled his  eyes . There was a 45 ft cement boat there, which had been ten years in the building. When he came back for the second months rent,  the boat was launched and long gone.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Do you want short or long version? OK, medium one... Will try to skip details.There are about 3 professional boatyard left in this area (was whole bunch about 20-30 years ago). One fixing ocean ships, one making tags, one making barges. That is all. None of these yards were interested to rent me a space to build a boat. There are old ship yards around, but it is not allowed to build boats on it anymore (banned by environmental agency). One DIY boat yard (went out of business already) wanted me to get an insurance for welding. Which was VERY expensive and almost impossible to get without registering the company.After extensive search (companies, farmers, etc), I found welding shop which had a big yard and gave me a reasonable price for renting outside space to build a boat. The owner is very smart guy who treat his employes as a family and rarely takes people "from the street". He was using all kind of saving measures to be competitive in bidding for government contracts and was interested to see how 1 man can build a boat by himself. We talked about building process and I told him that I plan to build a boat in about 2 years. He laughed and said "I give you a good deal on the rent because you are not going anywhere for at least 5 years."I skept about 2-3 month of useful time due to weather, redoing something, re-leveling the hull because of heavy machinery traffic around, etc. The shop helped me to unload the steel, and I borrowed a forklift ones to put footwell on (it saved me about 2-3 days). Otherwise I did everything with my tools on hands and myself (sometime I had volunteer helper who was interested in Origamiboat building, but it was more about how to do something) .I had to move my hull after 1 year to another location  because of height restrictions for the load's (carried by moving truck's) in that area. I did not even put the keel, cabin and pilothouse on the hull because of it.I asked the owner again (before moving out) if the shop can build the shell for Origami boat after watching my progress. He said "Well, looking how you done it, I think we can do it in about 2 month with 2 people. Especially after watching you rotating the hull just by your hands. I thought you will need a big crane to do that" :))I put my project on hold for another 2 years (doing nothing) and now it is time to start working on it again.And that how I know pro and cons of the welding shop ;) Only welders using electrodes there were couple of guys who were using welding trucks and doing installation/assembly of the structures (welded at the shop) at the work sites.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Please tell us, how do you know it? Have you tryed to make your shall made by a professional boat yard?Alex2015-08-11 6:36 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :  Forgot to mention that regular welding shop usually do not use stick welding anymore - working inside with GMAW now. Only outside construction welders still use it (and charge more). So, more likely you may not find the welders you need in ordinary fabrication shop. "Old timers", who still remember how to do it, will charge you extra.More likely, when you give them your time-frame to build a boat they will laugh at you, until they see how you have done it. I do not need to tell you how I know it ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap.| 32876|32818|2015-08-12 03:47:25|Hannu Venermo|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|I got to use a proper mig welder last year from a family member. They use them to build large equipment, similar to boats (cterpillar sized equipment). The welders are mostly never moved, and the leads are about 10 m long. About 10x faster than stick. Multi-pass without cleaning up slag in between. Working on 10-15 mm thick steel. 1.2 -1.5 mm wire, water-cooled torches, can run 8 hours non-stop. I dont really need one, but might buy one anyway, for making cnc machines, better and faster. 3-phase. My second try would have passed a coded-welder test. But-I did not set up the machine, it was already tuned in for mild steel and the right amps/speed. On 11/08/2015 23:05, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I once built a boat in a sheet metal shop which ad all the wire feed > welders you could ask for. The short leads were such a pain in the ass > for puling the hull up, that we parked a gas driven stick welder > outside the door and did it with that one, to avoid constantly having > to move the wire feed welders. Only after the shell was together did > the wire feed welders prove usefull for the full welding. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32877|32818|2015-08-12 05:47:03|ANDREW AIREY|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Worksop,Nottinghamshire,England.Canal boat building is a bit of a cottage industry round here.There are at least 3 within a 10 mile radius.The one in town makes shot blast pots as their bread and butter business but builds narrow boats and barges as they get orders and will rent out yard space for the fitting out.However the requirements under the RCD are relatively light for canal boats and the ones I've seen there would probably count as traditional designs anyway.Blue water boats would be a different matter although one might be able to stretch a point on what constitutes home builtcheersAndy Airey| 32878|32818|2015-08-12 10:09:22|wild_explorer|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Just curious... What model?In welding class, I had a chance to use suit-case type of wire feeder (connected to a main MIG welder by long leads) with air cooled gun. It is mainly used for the construction welding with flux-core wire. I think, that minimum amperage was about 200A and minimum material at least 1/4". It had high deposit rate and was able to make very smooth weld. But... the welded short piece (about 6") was glowing red hot :)The main problem for this "nice to have" equipment is the cost (> $2000). My backup welder (used old and heavy AC welder) cost me $100. Another (new and light) 200A DC inverter welder - $300. I have 50 ft (15m) cable, but I still have to move the welder around some time. New DC welder is not a professional type, but it has 100% duty cycle for many sizes of the electrodes I am using and does the job.Water cooled gun needs running water. So, it is not a "field type" equipment. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I got to use a proper mig welder last year from a family member. They use them to build large equipment, similar to boats (cterpillar sized equipment). The welders are mostly never moved, and the leads are about 10 m long. About 10x faster than stick. Multi-pass without cleaning up slag in between. Working on 10-15 mm thick steel. 1.2 -1.5 mm wire, water-cooled torches, can run 8 hours non-stop. | 32879|32879|2015-08-12 14:19:18|smallboatvoyaguer|Stern bulwark cap|Does anyone have any tips on how to attach the stern bulwark cap to the top of the transom?Do you weld one side, then slowly bend the pipe and tack it across the edge, or bend the pipe to the shape of the transom and then tack it? | 32880|32880|2015-08-12 14:25:26|smallboatvoyaguer|Crooked Skeg...| It's hard to tell, but I think my skeg is off to  one side a little more than the other, can't recall exactly how that would have happened, maybe during welding. My concern is not so much "tracking", but messing up the engine alignment.  I haven't welded in the skeg webs yet. I'm wondering, if I was to use a come along to pull the skeg a little into the right direction, then weld in the webs, do ya'll think she may stay put and straight? Has anyone had this problem before, or anything similar, where something was crooked or messed up, and they were able to come up with a clever solution? What was your scenario?| 32881|32880|2015-08-12 14:57:32|wild_explorer|Re: Crooked Skeg...|I will need to work on the skeg soon and you made me think ;)First, you may want to check if your skeg is for sure out of the alignment. If your hull is leveled in transverse direction, you may use 2 plumb bobs from the center line seam (let say at midships and at bow). It will give you the reference to eyeball the alignment of the skeg using 3-4 points for the verification. As Brent mentioned several times, eyeballing is a very precise instrument :)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : It's hard to tell, but I think my skeg is off to  one side a little more than the other, can't recall exactly how that would have happened, maybe during welding. My concern is not so much "tracking", but messing up the engine alignment.| 32882|32879|2015-08-12 15:25:32|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Stern bulwark cap|I would use a pipe bending machine. Short of that, your tack and bend technique (with damp sand packed into the tube, should work. GordSent from my iPhone On Aug 12, 2015, at 12:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Does anyone have any tips on how to attach the stern bulwark cap to the top of the transom?Do you weld one side, then slowly bend the pipe and tack it across the edge, or bend the pipe to the shape of the transom and then tack it?  | 32883|32879|2015-08-13 15:49:32|theboilerflue|Re: Stern bulwark cap|I'd bend the pipe to fit then you can push it around a bit as you weld it.I did 2 coats on the inside, sprayed didn't bother to brush or roll anything just sprayed the fuck out of everything, so real thick and drippy. The airless sprayer gun didn't really keep up for the size of the nozzle I needed for the coaltar paint so maybe that was the best approch but it still splattered paint every where. The gun worked great with the miozinc though. So I sprayed the zinc on the outside as well, the sprayer was nice as I blasted the whole boat and had the pumped in air and everything already and it would cover the shiny new steel fast. And three coats of tar on the outside rolled, I should of bought more thinner as it's thick like molasses when you roll it and it's hard on the old arms after several days.| 32884|32818|2015-08-14 04:19:37|Alex Bar|Re: 1% vs 99%. Or 1% vs <1%?|Thank you Willis for the explanations. You say that the professional welding shop told you that if they build the boat it will take two months. The hull? The complete yacht?Another important think to know is how long will it takes by them to pull the two half shall and joining them compare to the Brent extimate time (self builder).Alex2015-08-11 17:39 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :   Do you want short or long version? OK, medium one... Will try to skip details.There are about 3 professional boatyard left in this area (was whole bunch about 20-30 years ago). One fixing ocean ships, one making tags, one making barges. That is all. None of these yards were interested to rent me a space to build a boat. There are old ship yards around, but it is not allowed to build boats on it anymore (banned by environmental agency). One DIY boat yard (went out of business already) wanted me to get an insurance for welding. Which was VERY expensive and almost impossible to get without registering the company.After extensive search (companies, farmers, etc), I found welding shop which had a big yard and gave me a reasonable price for renting outside space to build a boat. The owner is very smart guy who treat his employes as a family and rarely takes people "from the street". He was using all kind of saving measures to be competitive in bidding for government contracts and was interested to see how 1 man can build a boat by himself. We talked about building process and I told him that I plan to build a boat in about 2 years. He laughed and said "I give you a good deal on the rent because you are not going anywhere for at least 5 years."I skept about 2-3 month of useful time due to weather, redoing something, re-leveling the hull because of heavy machinery traffic around, etc. The shop helped me to unload the steel, and I borrowed a forklift ones to put footwell on (it saved me about 2-3 days). Otherwise I did everything with my tools on hands and myself (sometime I had volunteer helper who was interested in Origamiboat building, but it was more about how to do something) .I had to move my hull after 1 year to another location  because of height restrictions for the load's (carried by moving truck's) in that area. I did not even put the keel, cabin and pilothouse on the hull because of it.I asked the owner again (before moving out) if the shop can build the shell for Origami boat after watching my progress. He said "Well, looking how you done it, I think we can do it in about 2 month with 2 people. Especially after watching you rotating the hull just by your hands. I thought you will need a big crane to do that" :))I put my project on hold for another 2 years (doing nothing) and now it is time to start working on it again.And that how I know pro and cons of the welding shop ;) Only welders using electrodes there were couple of guys who were using welding trucks and doing installation/assembly of the structures (welded at the shop) at the work sites.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Please tell us, how do you know it? Have you tryed to make your shall made by a professional boat yard?Alex2015-08-11 6:36 GMT+02:00 williswildest@... [origamiboats] :  Forgot to mention that regular welding shop usually do not use stick welding anymore - working inside with GMAW now. Only outside construction welders still use it (and charge more). So, more likely you may not find the welders you need in ordinary fabrication shop. "Old timers", who still remember how to do it, will charge you extra.More likely, when you give them your time-frame to build a boat they will laugh at you, until they see how you have done it. I do not need to tell you how I know it ;) ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So,armed with a copy of Brent's book and the video,you approach an ordinary fabrication shop and drop the problem in their lap. | 32885|32885|2015-08-15 11:53:37|smallboatvoyaguer|Mast Arch|So, have people been installing the mast arch before they put on the trunk cabin top or after? Any tips on installing the trunk cabin top?| 32886|32879|2015-08-15 19:00:25|brentswain38|Re: Stern bulwark cap|I only install the stern bulwark cap, after the cockpjt is in. Then I tack a couple of braces from the inside top corner of the cockpit to the top of the transom, to a stop the pipe from deforming the transom when I force the shape into the pipe. Then I match up one corner of the pipe to the rest of the bulwark pipe, Then I tack that corner to the top of the transom,, and the main bulwark, well centred. Then ,leaving the other end long for leverage , I weld a loop  on the transom, at the stern,  three feet below the bulwark . Then I hook a come along between that and the end of the pipe, and pull the curve in the pipe, tacking it,  while keeping it centred ,as I go. As you reach the end of it, you will have to cut  a bit of pipe out of the main bulwark, about 1  5/8th inch, to let it complete the curve ,and replace that part after it is in.| 32887|32879|2015-08-15 19:06:58|brentswain38|Re: Stern bulwark cap|There is no need to pack sch 40 pipe, in a large radius.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would use a pipe bending machine. Short of that, your tack and bend technique (with damp sand packed into the tube, should work. GordSent from my iPhone On Aug 12, 2015, at 12:19 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote: Does anyone have any tips on how to attach the stern bulwark cap to the top of the transom?Do you weld one side, then slowly bend the pipe and tack it across the edge, or bend the pipe to the shape of the transom and then tack it? | 32888|32879|2015-08-15 19:10:34|brentswain38|Re: Stern bulwark cap|31 years ago, I gave my boat 3 coats of epoxy tar inside and 5 outside. The more the better. You only get one shot at painting her adequately inside , so give her lots. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'd bend the pipe to fit then you can push it around a bit as you weld it.I did 2 coats on the inside, sprayed didn't bother to brush or roll anything just sprayed the fuck out of everything, so real thick and drippy. The airless sprayer gun didn't really keep up for the size of the nozzle I needed for the coaltar paint so maybe that was the best approch but it still splattered paint every where. The gun worked great with the miozinc though. So I sprayed the zinc on the outside as well, the sprayer was nice as I blasted the whole boat and had the pumped in air and everything already and it would cover the shiny new steel fast. And three coats of tar on the outside rolled, I should of bought more thinner as it's thick like molasses when you roll it and it's hard on the old arms after several days.| 32889|32880|2015-08-15 19:12:29|brentswain38|Re: Crooked Skeg...|Yes, welding in the webs and gussets. after pulling it back, should hold it. You could over pull it and put in a bit of weld, then let it go to see if it has straightened it out. If not , a bit more of that could work. One straight , leave it free, while finishing the weld.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : It's hard to tell, but I think my skeg is off to  one side a little more than the other, can't recall exactly how that would have happened, maybe during welding. My concern is not so much "tracking", but messing up the engine alignment.  I haven't welded in the skeg webs yet. I'm wondering, if I was to use a come along to pull the skeg a little into the right direction, then weld in the webs, do ya'll think she may stay put and straight? Has anyone had this problem before, or anything similar, where something was crooked or messed up, and they were able to come up with a clever solution? What was your scenario?| 32890|32734|2015-08-18 14:01:34|jaybeecherbay|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|I am looking to sand blast and paint mid september.  I am also going to use the wasser mc100 zinc primer, and coal tar wasser inside and out.  couple questions:1.  can anyone give their opinion on how many coats of primer, and paint I should use inside?  and out?2.  Should I use the zinc primer below the waterline?3.  For those who have used wasser coal tar,  what top coats apply well to this product?  does it have to be applied before tar dries, just like the coal tar epoxy?4.  if anyone can also give an estimate on how much primer and coal tar paint I will need to paint my 36',  would be greatly appreciated.stoked.J| 32891|32734|2015-08-18 18:55:54|aguysailing|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|When I did my hull with wasser, I believe they had their own top coat over which goes your finish coat (i.e., the colour you want your boat to be topsides)  Below water line you use bottom paint e.g., epoxy cop which has 2 or 3 colours.   After 10 yrs I am going to sand blast or pressure wash off the finish, top and bottom paint down to the coal tar layer and re-coal tar below the water line.  | 32892|32734|2015-08-18 22:04:29|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|Brent wrote this in another forum:"31 years ago, I gave my boat 3 coats of epoxy tar inside and 5 outside. The more the better. You only get one shot at painting her adequately inside , so give her lots."And Haiden wrote this:"I did 2 coats on the inside, sprayed didn't bother to brush or roll anything just sprayed the fuck out of everything, so real thick and drippy. The airless sprayer gun didn't really keep up for the size of the nozzle I needed for the coaltar paint so maybe that was the best approch but it still splattered paint every where. The gun worked great with the miozinc though. So I sprayed the zinc on the outside as well, the sprayer was nice as I blasted the whole boat and had the pumped in air and everything already and it would cover the shiny new steel fast. And three coats of tar on the outside rolled, I should of bought more thinner as it's thick like molasses when you roll it and it's hard on the old arms after several days."| 32893|32734|2015-08-19 19:54:40|brentswain38|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|I would consider my 3 coats inside and 5 outside to be minimum, altho you would never regret putting a couple more on the inside, especially in the bilge and under the engine.As Paul mentioned, some zincs, like zinga, only stick to steel, and not to other coats of zinc. So I would first try it with whatever zinc you are using. If it works, a second coat of zinc would be a good idea.Wasser is far more forgiving in topcoat time than expoxies, and you can recoat it any time. I don't think I would use zinc below the waterline, if I was  starting from clean, sandblasted metal. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am looking to sand blast and paint mid september.  I am also going to use the wasser mc100 zinc primer, and coal tar wasser inside and out.  couple questions:1.  can anyone give their opinion on how many coats of primer, and paint I should use inside?  and out?2.  Should I use the zinc primer below the waterline?3.  For those who have used wasser coal tar,  what top coats apply well to this product?  does it have to be applied before tar dries, just like the coal tar epoxy?4.  if anyone can also give an estimate on how much primer and coal tar paint I will need to paint my 36',  would be greatly appreciated.stoked.J| 32894|32894|2015-08-19 22:16:27|Meademd|lo: (9)| http://bizde.myjino.ru/424379.php *********************** When I am abroa d, I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the government of my own country. I make up for lost time when I come home. Carlota Rodriguiz | 32895|32734|2015-08-21 12:36:50|theboilerflue|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|I think I used 9 gallons of miozinc and 20 or 25 gallons of coal tar. I had it in 5 gallon pails which was a bit of a bugger as you had to paint the whole boat pretty much with each pail before it kicked off too much. The paint rep that sold me the Wasser tar told me I could use any polyurethane paint pretty much to topcoat it and sold some Internation polyurethane stuff. I seem to remember painting the boat for about a week, pretty much constantly, switching between what is dry and inside, outside, hull, deck you can pretty much paint solid for a week or so. I can't say about the re-coat time but the International stuff stuck just fine, it does bleed through but only the first layer really and sucsesive layers will block it.More paint on the inside would be a good idea. I zinced the whole boat below the water line and above, so far it seems fine we'll see. but 9 gallons covers the whole boat inside and out with that stuff just fine. I'd expect to use maybe a gallon of thinner with 9 gallons of that stuff if you're going to be brushing and rolling it as it thickens quickly and doesn't flow into holes easily without thinner. The tar takes a far bit too. 5 gallons seems to cover the whole boat inside or outside pretty much 30 gallons would should give you the 3 coats each side.| 32896|32896|2015-08-24 16:57:47|brentswain38|Touch up sand blasting|I just borrowed a compressor with a 5HP gas driven motor, to touch up rust dings with beach sand. I'll never go back to grinding. I have tried it with 80 lbs pressure ,nowhere near enough. This one had 112 lbs PSI pressure.It wouldn't blast the epoxy off , but where I had chipped the surface paint away, it did a great job on rust, which came off easily, to white metal, a beautiful surface put epoxy on.125 PSI would be great.I blasted the surface of good epoxy, to get better surface for more topcoats . At 112 PSI, it was easy to control. May do my bottom that way. That which was loose, blew away, whereas that which was well stuck, stayed stuck, with a nice rough surface for more coats.. Next time I have dings to touch up, I will suggest to my neighbours that we chip in, and rent a big compressor for a day, and pass it around. It is so much quicker, and does such a far better job than grinding ,that it will probably take us about 20 minutes each to do all the rust dings we have. A sandblasted surface is far less likely to be an ongoing problem if properly epoxied with at least 5 coats. | 32897|32896|2015-08-24 18:14:56|Aaron|Re: Touch up sand blasting|BrentThe air compressor is a good idea but I am not to keen on the beach sand. Silicosis Need a good filter or you garden hose trick, and chlorides (Maybe buy a dump truck load of screened sand from a cement shop to limit the salt content) getting blasted into the metal. http://www.paintsquare.com/library/articles/SSPCBiblio2.PDF Aaron From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Touch up sand blasting   I just borrowed a compressor with a 5HP gas driven motor, to touch up rust dings with beach sand. I'll never go back to grinding. I have tried it with 80 lbs pressure ,nowhere near enough. This one had 112 lbs PSI pressure.It wouldn't blast the epoxy off , but where I had chipped the surface paint away, it did a great job on rust, which came off easily, to white metal, a beautiful surface put epoxy on.125 PSI would be great.I blasted the surface of good epoxy, to get better surface for more topcoats . At 112 PSI, it was easy to control. May do my bottom that way. That which was loose, blew away, whereas that which was well stuck, stayed stuck, with a nice rough surface for more coats.. Next time I have dings to touch up, I will suggest to my neighbours that we chip in, and rent a big compressor for a day, and pass it around. It is so much quicker, and does such a far better job than grinding ,that it will probably take us about 20 minutes each to do all the rust dings we have. A sandblasted surface is far less likely to be an ongoing problem if properly epoxied with at least 5 coats. #ygrps-yiv-872843012 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449 -- #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-872843012 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-872843012 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-872843012 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-872843012 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-872843012 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#ygrps-yiv-872843012yiv7232290449ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-872843012 | 32898|32896|2015-08-24 18:54:40|brentswain38|Re: Touch up sand blasting|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I make sure I get it from far above the high tide line,  where the rain has long since washed any salt out of it.Or, if you have wheels, you can drive around until you find some back in the bush, far from any salt water.Strain it thru a window screen . I am planing on putting a window screen over the pickup pipe on my mini blaster, to eliminate the problem before it gets inside the pickup hose.BrentThe air compressor is a good idea but I am not to keen on the beach sand. Silicosis Need a good filter or you garden hose trick, and chlorides (Maybe buy a dump truck load of screened sand from a cement shop to limit the salt content) getting blasted into the metal. http://www.paintsquare.com/library/articles/SSPCBiblio2.PDFAaron From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Touch up sand blasting  I just borrowed a compressor with a 5HP gas driven motor, to touch up rust dings with beach sand. I'll never go back to grinding. I have tried it with 80 lbs pressure ,nowhere near enough. This one had 112 lbs PSI pressure.It wouldn't blast the epoxy off , but where I had chipped the surface paint away, it did a great job on rust, which came off easily, to white metal, a beautiful surface put epoxy on.125 PSI would be great.I blasted the surface of good epoxy, to get better surface for more topcoats . At 112 PSI, it was easy to control. May do my bottom that way. That which was loose, blew away, whereas that which was well stuck, stayed stuck, with a nice rough surface for more coats.. Next time I have dings to touch up, I will suggest to my neighbours that we chip in, and rent a big compressor for a day, and pass it around. It is so much quicker, and does such a far better job than grinding ,that it will probably take us about 20 minutes each to do all the rust dings we have. 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#ygrps-yiv-1627695367 #ygrps-yiv-1627695367ygrps-yiv-713534834 #ygrps-yiv-1627695367ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-1627695367ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 32899|32896|2015-08-25 13:17:25|opuspaul|Re: Touch up sand blasting|It may be better than grinding but I blasted in Fiji using beach sand it wasn't the best.   Beach sand doesn't cut as aggressively since it is made of less sharp grains but the real problem is the salt.   The salt is driven in, left on the metal and corrosive.  It can affect the life of the coatings.For spot blasting, I have used one of the small gravity feed hand blasters with a home compressor.  It uses a lot of air but if you take your time and don't burn out your compressor you can do small chips and spots without any problem.  I have used coarse garden sand from a home building site.  The sand comes from quarries rather than a beach so shouldn't have any salt in it.  You might need to dry the sand in the sun if it has a lot of water content.Gravity Feed Blaster Gun with 20 oz. Hopper Gravity Feed Blaster Gun with 20 oz. Hopper Amazing deals on this Gravity Feed Blaster Gun With 20 0Z Hopper at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices. View on www.harborfreight.com Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I make sure I get it from far above the high tide line,  where the rain has long since washed any salt out of it.Or, if you have wheels, you can drive around until you find some back in the bush, far from any salt water.Strain it thru a window screen . I am planing on putting a window screen over the pickup pipe on my mini blaster, to eliminate the problem before it gets inside the pickup hose.BrentThe air compressor is a good idea but I am not to keen on the beach sand. Silicosis Need a good filter or you garden hose trick, and chlorides (Maybe buy a dump truck load of screened sand from a cement shop to limit the salt content) getting blasted into the metal. http://www.paintsquare.com/library/articles/SSPCBiblio2.PDFAaron From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Touch up sand blasting  I just borrowed a compressor with a 5HP gas driven motor, to touch up rust dings with beach sand. I'll never go back to grinding. I have tried it with 80 lbs pressure ,nowhere near enough. This one had 112 lbs PSI pressure.It wouldn't blast the epoxy off , but where I had chipped the surface paint away, it did a great job on rust, which came off easily, to white metal, a beautiful surface put epoxy on.125 PSI would be great.I blasted the surface of good epoxy, to get better surface for more topcoats . At 112 PSI, it was easy to control. May do my bottom that way. That which was loose, blew away, whereas that which was well stuck, stayed stuck, with a nice rough surface for more coats.. Next time I have dings to touch up, I will suggest to my neighbours that we chip in, and rent a big compressor for a day, and pass it around. It is so much quicker, and does such a far better job than grinding ,that it will probably take us about 20 minutes each to do all the rust dings we have. A sandblasted surface is far less likely to be an ongoing problem if properly epoxied with at least 5 coats.#ygrps-yiv-352224851 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 -- #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-352224851 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-352224851 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546 #ygrps-yiv-352224851ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834 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BC beach sand is much harder. I get it from well above the high tide line, where the BC rain has long ago washed any salt out of it.Coarse sand is slow , finer sand has far more hits per second, and cuts much faster. Best  chip the paint off fit first.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It may be better than grinding but I blasted in Fiji using beach sand it wasn't the best.   Beach sand doesn't cut as aggressively since it is made of less sharp grains but the real problem is the salt.   The salt is driven in, left on the metal and corrosive.  It can affect the life of the coatings.For spot blasting, I have used one of the small gravity feed hand blasters with a home compressor.  It uses a lot of air but if you take your time and don't burn out your compressor you can do small chips and spots without any problem.  I have used coarse garden sand from a home building site.  The sand comes from quarries rather than a beach so shouldn't have any salt in it.  You might need to dry the sand in the sun if it has a lot of water content.Gravity Feed Blaster Gun with 20 oz. Hopper Gravity Feed Blaster Gun with 20 oz. Hopper Amazing deals on this Gravity Feed Blaster Gun With 20 0Z Hopper at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices. View on www.harborfreight.com Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I make sure I get it from far above the high tide line,  where the rain has long since washed any salt out of it.Or, if you have wheels, you can drive around until you find some back in the bush, far from any salt water.Strain it thru a window screen . I am planing on putting a window screen over the pickup pipe on my mini blaster, to eliminate the problem before it gets inside the pickup hose.BrentThe air compressor is a good idea but I am not to keen on the beach sand. Silicosis Need a good filter or you garden hose trick, and chlorides (Maybe buy a dump truck load of screened sand from a cement shop to limit the salt content) getting blasted into the metal. http://www.paintsquare.com/library/articles/SSPCBiblio2.PDFAaron From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Touch up sand blasting  I just borrowed a compressor with a 5HP gas driven motor, to touch up rust dings with beach sand. I'll never go back to grinding. I have tried it with 80 lbs pressure ,nowhere near enough. This one had 112 lbs PSI pressure.It wouldn't blast the epoxy off , but where I had chipped the surface paint away, it did a great job on rust, which came off easily, to white metal, a beautiful surface put epoxy on.125 PSI would be great.I blasted the surface of good epoxy, to get better surface for more topcoats . At 112 PSI, it was easy to control. May do my bottom that way. That which was loose, blew away, whereas that which was well stuck, stayed stuck, with a nice rough surface for more coats.. Next time I have dings to touch up, I will suggest to my neighbours that we chip in, and rent a big compressor for a day, and pass it around. It is so much quicker, and does such a far better job than grinding ,that it will probably take us about 20 minutes each to do all the rust dings we have. A sandblasted surface is far less likely to be an ongoing problem if properly epoxied with at least 5 coats.#ygrps-yiv-364582162 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 -- #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-364582162 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834 #ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449 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#ygrps-yiv-364582162ygrps-yiv-84227400ygrps-yiv-1909245546ygrps-yiv-713534834yiv7232290449ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32902|32900|2015-08-26 19:37:36|brentswain38|Re: Trimming Pilouthouse Front Panel Top|I just measure up from the cabin top, to match the camber to that on the cabin top. Then I spring battens , while checking it from the bow, to make sure there are no surprises.Best  check the wheelhouse from all angles, before putting the top on.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So how are people marking and making the line to cut along for the camber of the cabin top across the tops of the front pilothouse panels?I have them installed, but the tops aren't cut yet.| 32903|32903|2015-08-31 18:24:16|smallboatvoyaguer|Extra Stainless Ideas?| I've got a bunch of extra 11 gauge stainless sheet. I bought a bunch from a local guy for cheap. Any ideas for uses? I made my cockpit coaming from stainless. I thought about making the pilothouse front window panels from it, as well as the cupola. See any trouble with those ideas? Wishing I would have made my cockpit out of it too. Figured I'd use some in the galley and crapper.Marlin| 32904|32903|2015-08-31 20:08:56|Matt Malone|Re: Extra Stainless Ideas?| 11 gauge stainless would probably make a nice wood stove or a countertop, or a removeable / attachable food tray for the cockpit.  I would weld some stainless tube around the edge of the counter top so that there is no sharp edge.  If you had a lot of it, you might make a pan for the bottom of a shower stall, maybe 6-12" tall with a curtain for the full height.   I have looked at shower stalls, most are too large in plan area to work in a boat.   You might use the stainless in the bottom of the chain locker, or bottom of the anchor locker or the bottom of the locker where propane tanks might be stored.  The reason is, you could avoid painting it and thereby avoid the problem of chipped paint.   You might weld a patch to the deck near the cockpit to use as a cutting/gutting surface when fishing -- easy to keep clean, easy to clean up.  If it takes a nice polish to be a functional mirror, weld a strip to the cockpit bulkhead so that when one is at the helm and looking forward one gets a reflection of what is behind without turning around.   Fast motion in the reflection might also get your attention before you notice something otherwise.   You might weld a strip around the mast a eye level when working with sails, again, a wide angle rear-view mirror.   One might weld some to the mast where tackle might tap.   A strip on the foredeck from the anchor roller to the winch might protect the paint on the deck from scrapes.   I might be tempted to use 11 gauge stainless as the separation plates in a light weight, oh-crap block and tackle with 6-10 old sheaves and 1/4 inch steel cable.  Something where one might be able to handle one end from a dingy.  I made a quadruple-triple block and tackle (7 sheaves total) that was good for about 16 tons.   My biggest problem was finding something strong enough to attach it to.   You might never need something like that, you might never run aground or anything but you never know when it might come in handy.  For instance, I once pointed to the block and tackle and suggested the next pickup truck I find stopped in front of my place without a good reason would be assumed to belong to another thief and would be found hanging 60 feet up a tree, without a scratch on it.  The suggestion solved the immediate problem.   Finally, take a piece to a laser-etching place and have the name of your boat and maybe a profile graphic etched into it to mount on an interior bulkhead as a plaque.   None of these things are necessary, but, I am sure some sounded cool or useful.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:24:08 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Extra Stainless Ideas?    I've got a bunch of extra 11 gauge stainless sheet. I bought a bunch from a local guy for cheap. Any ideas for uses? I made my cockpit coaming from stainless. I thought about making the pilothouse front window panels from it, as well as the cupola. See any trouble with those ideas? Wishing I would have made my cockpit out of it too. Figured I'd use some in the galley and crapper.Marlin | 32905|32903|2015-09-01 15:01:56|brentswain38|Re: Extra Stainless Ideas?|All good ideas.More  stainless plating around the stove pipe is  a good idea , as well as around the exhaust pipe.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}11 gauge stainless would probably make a nice wood stove or a countertop, or a removeable / attachable food tray for the cockpit.  I would weld some stainless tube around the edge of the counter top so that there is no sharp edge.  If you had a lot of it, you might make a pan for the bottom of a shower stall, maybe 6-12" tall with a curtain for the full height.   I have looked at shower stalls, most are too large in plan area to work in a boat.   You might use the stainless in the bottom of the chain locker, or bottom of the anchor locker or the bottom of the locker where propane tanks might be stored.  The reason is, you could avoid painting it and thereby avoid the problem of chipped paint.   You might weld a patch to the deck near the cockpit to use as a cutting/gutting surface when fishing -- easy to keep clean, easy to clean up.  If it takes a nice polish to be a functional mirror, weld a strip to the cockpit bulkhead so that when one is at the helm and looking forward one gets a reflection of what is behind without turning around.   Fast motion in the reflection might also get your attention before you notice something otherwise.   You might weld a strip around the mast a eye level when working with sails, again, a wide angle rear-view mirror.   One might weld some to the mast where tackle might tap.   A strip on the foredeck from the anchor roller to the winch might protect the paint on the deck from scrapes.   I might be tempted to use 11 gauge stainless as the separation plates in a light weight, oh-crap block and tackle with 6-10 old sheaves and 1/4 inch steel cable.  Something where one might be able to handle one end from a dingy.  I made a quadruple-triple block and tackle (7 sheaves total) that was good for about 16 tons.   My biggest problem was finding something strong enough to attach it to.   You might never need something like that, you might never run aground or anything but you never know when it might come in handy.  For instance, I once pointed to the block and tackle and suggested the next pickup truck I find stopped in front of my place without a good reason would be assumed to belong to another thief and would be found hanging 60 feet up a tree, without a scratch on it.  The suggestion solved the immediate problem.   Finally, take a piece to a laser-etching place and have the name of your boat and maybe a profile graphic etched into it to mount on an interior bulkhead as a plaque.   None of these things are necessary, but, I am sure some sounded cool or useful.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:24:08 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Extra Stainless Ideas?   I've got a bunch of extra 11 gauge stainless sheet. I bought a bunch from a local guy for cheap. Any ideas for uses? I made my cockpit coaming from stainless. I thought about making the pilothouse front window panels from it, as well as the cupola. See any trouble with those ideas? Wishing I would have made my cockpit out of it too. Figured I'd use some in the galley and crapper.Marlin#ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ExternalClass 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.ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1265071047 #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867 .ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265071047ygrps-yiv-1686235867ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32906|32903|2015-09-02 22:27:47|theboilerflue|Re: Extra Stainless Ideas?|Marlin I'd put some along the back corners of the hull above the water line, also the pilot house back corners. The paint on the pilot house gets rubbed off by lines and the dinghy grinds along those back corners - they are probably the worst spot on my boat for chips.| 32907|32907|2015-09-05 19:54:33|jaybeecherbay|painting stainless life rails|I am trying to decide whether or not to paint my stainless life rails?  as of now there is a bunch of cleaning up to do to them... there is rust from welding splatter, and since I will be painting over almost all of the other stainless details on the deck, I thought it might as well get sandblasted and painted.  Am I correct in saying once the stainless gets sandblasted it loses some of its stainless properties?  has anyone else sandblasted their stainless and then left it?thanksJay| 32908|32907|2015-09-05 21:17:53|Gordon Schnell|Re: painting stainless life rails|One of the reasons we all want stainless steel railings and trim IS, it doesn’t rust, it dosen’t need to be painted, it looks so much nicer UNPAINTED.Gord On Sep 5, 2015, at 5:54 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:I am trying to decide whether or not to paint my stainless life rails?  as of now there is a bunch of cleaning up to do to them... there is rust from welding splatter, and since I will be painting over almost all of the other stainless details on the deck, I thought it might as well get sandblasted and painted.  Am I correct in saying once the stainless gets sandblasted it loses some of its stainless properties?  has anyone else sandblasted their stainless and then left it?thanksJay| 32909|32907|2015-09-05 22:04:10|garyhlucas|Re: painting stainless life rails| Sandblasting stainless increases the surface area and causes it to corrode MUCH faster.  We build equipment using stainless For wastewater and we’ve been using a stainless passivating weld cleaner after welding and grinding and it makes a big difference in whether the stainless rusts or not. Bead or sandblasted stainless holds up very poorly in our environment.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 9:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails     One of the reasons we all want stainless steel railings and trim IS, it doesn’t rust, it dosen’t need to be painted, it looks so much nicer UNPAINTED. Gord On Sep 5, 2015, at 5:54 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I am trying to decide whether or not to paint my stainless life rails?  as of now there is a bunch of cleaning up to do to them... there is rust from welding splatter, and since I will be painting over almost all of the other stainless details on the deck, I thought it might as well get sandblasted and painted.  Am I correct in saying once the stainless gets sandblasted it loses some of its stainless properties?  has anyone else sandblasted their stainless and then left it?thanksJay   | 32910|32907|2015-09-06 02:30:29|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|in terms of corrosion it all depends on which alloy You use;there are stainless alloys keeping up poorly even with clean seawater, and there are stainless alloys You wont find a trace of corrosion after years of use in the Adriatic, a quite aggressive watery solution of salted chemicals usually biting away any ferrous (and most nonferrous) metals rather quickly.polishing helps a bit, but it must be redone regularly, particularily where welding took place (no matter which way of welding), so the low quality stainless brings a lot of work with itself: no low maintenance surface any more.when it comes to paint, there are two diametrically opposed facts to consider: first: the stainless property works with an oxide outer layer emerging from the alloy ingredients together with oxygen, so paint will inhibit this sort of occurance quite a bit, and low quality stainless thus will corrode faster/more under paint.on the other hand, second: a polished shiny metal surface is not able not radiate away warmth brought in by sunlight. while it becomes a "radiator" with a painted surface. (painting the surface transforms the non radiating metallic body into a blackbody radiator following the Stefan Boltzmann laws, emitting its inner energy with the fourth power of its temperature - freaky physics, isn't it?)so, if going to the lower latitudes, paint on stainless would be a way to particularly cool down handrails and footsteps (and any other metallic objects) You otherwise could catch severely burns from. (which color isn't the point in this, it's a question of metallic surface or not).Cheers G_BAm 06.09.2015 um 01:54 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:   I am trying to decide whether or not to paint my stainless life rails?  as of now there is a bunch of cleaning up to do to them... there is rust from welding splatter, and since I will be painting over almost all of the other stainless details on the deck, I thought it might as well get sandblasted and painted.  Am I correct in saying once the stainless gets sandblasted it loses some of its stainless properties?  has anyone else sandblasted their stainless and then left it?thanksJay | 32911|32907|2015-09-06 03:52:49|Hannu Venermo|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|What ?? Here in Spain, or in greece 4 weeks ago, every single boat with stainless has some rust. 316L, passivated, will rust, in seawater and salt, after time. Slower, yes. No-one, but no-one, can afford inconel, and its not a stainless steel, and you cannot machine/work with it,anyway. On 06/09/2015 08:30, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote: > there are stainless alloys keeping up poorly even with clean seawater, > and there are stainless alloys You wont find a trace of corrosion > after years of use in the Adriatic, -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32912|32907|2015-09-06 06:09:33|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|try tubes which were originally used by coca cola bottle fillers or diarys no visible corrosion in the Adriatic after 16 years of heavy use and neglection/no maintenace at all, some brown discharge from the insides where drainholes were drilled, though, (probably should have filled the insides with argon, too ...), positively weldable with tig under argon, no weld corrosion afterwards with the very same material as weld filler where needed (don't really know about the insides, again), can be cold bent over forms (handpumped hydraulic bender, pimped with 15 ton car jack), very poor machining, cutting threads literally impossible, but with brandf***ingnew sawblades/drillbits we were able to form and compose bent handrails, pushpit, pulpit, bathing platform, ladders/steps, davits, a bimini frame, a collapsable sprayhood frame, a revolving solar-panel frame for three panels, some smaller decksparts, radar dome fender (sailguard) and could even invent some simple connectors for the bimini and sprayhood, all welded with footplates to be bolted on GRP, some captive nuts welded on, nuts read "A4", threads were treated with lanolin throughout. customer supplied tubing material as well as flat bar, so I do not know the exact alloy or materialnumber or price because I didn't buy it, but I do know he used to supply at least two coca cola splashers, one mayor dairy and a number of brewerys with conveyor technique for highly corrosive, aggressive liquids. another try might be tubes used in the paper production industry - pretty aggressive lubes they got to pump there anyway, and here in Europe they usually have to keep their shit together these days, no more dumping to rivers or the environment, and so they have to deal with quite an amount of different stages of nasty liquidish stuff which produces the need for reliable quality tubing, pumping and storingtankage with non-corrosive properties whatsoever. Am 06.09.2015 um 09:51 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]: > What ?? > Here in Spain, or in greece 4 weeks ago, every single boat with > stainless has some rust. > > 316L, passivated, will rust, in seawater and salt, after time. Slower, yes. > > No-one, but no-one, can afford inconel, and its not a stainless steel, > and you cannot machine/work with it,anyway. > > > On 06/09/2015 08:30, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> there are stainless alloys keeping up poorly even with clean seawater, >> and there are stainless alloys You wont find a trace of corrosion >> after years of use in the Adriatic, > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > | 32913|32907|2015-09-06 06:25:08|Hannu Venermo|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|Great Post Giuseppe ! So some form of unobtainium basically ... Was / is it shiny ? It might, perhaps, be one of the nickel superalloys like inconel. Tool steel costs 2€ / kg (basic F1 calibrado here in spain, weldable, machinable). Stainless, about 5-7 €. Inconel costs 54€ ! If it was inconel, it was likely worth about 70-100.000$ for 2k kg. I would have sold it, and bought a semi-new boat, and gone sailing ! Inconel is apparently used in nuclear reactors, and some chemical processes, usually with solvents and or heat. Coke might actually use or have used something like that. On 06/09/2015 12:09, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote: > try tubes which were originally used by coca cola bottle fillers or diarys -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32914|32907|2015-09-06 13:33:34|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|Well, "unobtainium" possibly, as far as one would have to find some kind of ways to get junk sorted out of dairys or papermills or a coke- or redbull-splashery, and it might not be everybody's way of life to go to the backside of a bigger factory and beg for their junk. I came along quite well with begged scraps and leftovers and materials and hardware I slaughtered out of the junk standing all over the place in every marina I've been to around the Med, around the Baltic and around UK, plus the materials and leftovers I got from customers while repairing / restoring their dreams. And what I couldn't find there, I often begged out of the backyards or junk-containers of bigger companies some k's in the hinterland. Thus I never run out of different diameters delrine balls for example, (something owners throughout seem to loose on a regular basis), usually there are some meters of different tubing and flatbar to repair crushed shiny stuff (this is why I have the bender and the little tig machine: to redo in an instant what the recent harbour manouver might have done to the shiny stuff ), i usually even hve a bunch of spreaders, turnbuckles, shackles, wire and so on left over from repairs, upgrades or the one or other change from alu to carbon, even masts or whole riggs including sails do stay behind sometimes, which we than reuse on another project or at least rescue from being molten in China and give away to someone who uses it. I do not know the material numbers of those materials, and I often not even know whether those materials "work" properly over the time, while some hardwear ripped off, lets say, a Swede 55 which I knew was lying around untouched for at least twenty years right between the spray usually DOES show whether it stands up against the elements or not. Sorry 'bout the "un-obtainium", Hannu. "Something the notorious coca cola splasher would probably use in his hobby paper mill" is the best I can offer in this case, I'm afraid. ... sewage plants might have some tubes of comparable quality on the foul side of their processing as well ... desalination plants ... refineries probably ... plants producing pharmaceuticals in big scale ... anything alike You might have 'round the corner to ask for their scrapped out shiny tubing. Cheers G_B Am 06.09.2015 um 12:20 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]: > Great Post Giuseppe ! > > So some form of unobtainium basically ... > Was / is it shiny ? > > It might, perhaps, be one of the nickel superalloys like inconel. > > Tool steel costs 2€ / kg (basic F1 calibrado here in spain, weldable, > machinable). > Stainless, about 5-7 €. > Inconel costs 54€ ! > > If it was inconel, it was likely worth about 70-100.000$ for 2k kg. > I would have sold it, and bought a semi-new boat, and gone sailing ! > > Inconel is apparently used in nuclear reactors, and some chemical > processes, usually with solvents and or heat. > Coke might actually use or have used something like that. > > > On 06/09/2015 12:09, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> try tubes which were originally used by coca cola bottle fillers or diarys > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > | 32915|32907|2015-09-06 14:39:03|jaybeecherbay|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|well thanks everyone... so consensus is do not sandblast any stainless or paint it.  coamings, mast step, railings...ect??| 32916|32907|2015-09-06 16:21:44|brentswain38|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|In BC scrapyards , most of our stainless comes from pulp mills, and is thus  made to withstand very caustic chemicals, so is mostly type 316. I have had no serious corrosion problems with it in over 40 years of use, including in the tropics. Some 12 gauge 400 series magnetic stainless I used on a wood stove eventually corroded thru, after 31 years.Type 304 sometimes shows up in oil industry stainless, not as corrosion resistant as 316.Some galley sinks and galley ware is magnetic, and will corrode like hell in the tropics. Bets check everything with a magnet, and use only non magnetic stainless. Painting lifelines would be a big mistake. Those brillo pad type angle grinder pads will shine it up like electropolishing. Princess auto has them , cheap.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Well, "unobtainium" possibly, as far as one would have to find some kind of ways to get junk sorted out of dairys or papermills or a coke- or redbull-splashery, and it might not be everybody's way of life to go to the backside of a bigger factory and beg for their junk. I came along quite well with begged scraps and leftovers and materials and hardware I slaughtered out of the junk standing all over the place in every marina I've been to around the Med, around the Baltic and around UK, plus the materials and leftovers I got from customers while repairing / restoring their dreams. And what I couldn't find there, I often begged out of the backyards or junk-containers of bigger companies some k's in the hinterland. Thus I never run out of different diameters delrine balls for example, (something owners throughout seem to loose on a regular basis), usually there are some meters of different tubing and flatbar to repair crushed shiny stuff (this is why I have the bender and the little tig machine: to redo in an instant what the recent harbour manouver might have done to the shiny stuff ), i usually even hve a bunch of spreaders, turnbuckles, shackles, wire and so on left over from repairs, upgrades or the one or other change from alu to carbon, even masts or whole riggs including sails do stay behind sometimes, which we than reuse on another project or at least rescue from being molten in China and give away to someone who uses it. I do not know the material numbers of those materials, and I often not even know whether those materials "work" properly over the time, while some hardwear ripped off, lets say, a Swede 55 which I knew was lying around untouched for at least twenty years right between the spray usually DOES show whether it stands up against the elements or not. Sorry 'bout the "un-obtainium", Hannu. "Something the notorious coca cola splasher would probably use in his hobby paper mill" is the best I can offer in this case, I'm afraid. ... sewage plants might have some tubes of comparable quality on the foul side of their processing as well ... desalination plants ... refineries probably ... plants producing pharmaceuticals in big scale ... anything alike You might have 'round the corner to ask for their scrapped out shiny tubing. Cheers G_B Am 06.09.2015 um 12:20 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]: > Great Post Giuseppe ! > > So some form of unobtainium basically ... > Was / is it shiny ? > > It might, perhaps, be one of the nickel superalloys like inconel. > > Tool steel costs 2€ / kg (basic F1 calibrado here in spain, weldable, > machinable). > Stainless, about 5-7 €. > Inconel costs 54€ ! > > If it was inconel, it was likely worth about 70-100.000$ for 2k kg. > I would have sold it, and bought a semi-new boat, and gone sailing ! > > Inconel is apparently used in nuclear reactors, and some chemical > processes, usually with solvents and or heat. > Coke might actually use or have used something like that. > > > On 06/09/2015 12:09, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> try tubes which were originally used by coca cola bottle fillers or diarys > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > | 32917|32917|2015-09-10 10:29:45|smallboatvoyaguer|Enlarging plates| Somehow things came out a hair to wide for my cabin tops. Any tips on welding more material  to 11 gauge plate without adding much distortion? I need to add a foot on the aft edge of my pilothouse top, and about three inches to the side. -Marlin| 32918|32907|2015-09-10 13:40:00|theboilerflue|Re: [Bulk] [origamiboats] painting stainless life rails|I would put some spit pipe or hose over the cap rail, stanchions, (life rails are probably far enough from the blasting to actually get worn) cabin grab rails, cleats edges, The mast step is really just easier to paint and it isn't really prominently visible. The same goes for the outsid of the hatch edges and various tangs and fittings on the deck they don't really do much to accent the boat like the grabs and rails do and it easier usually to just paint them rather than cutting around them. I brought the blasting and paint up into the stainless, past the weld just a bit, used that black poly irrigation hose to mask it and duck tape in places - which is a bugger to get off after coating it in paint.| 32919|32917|2015-09-10 17:14:59|brentswain38|Re: Enlarging plates|For the aft edge of the pilot house , you need to have solid beam under the seam, to prevent longitudinal shrinkage before putting the final weld on.For the three inches on the side, best weld it on before installing the cabin top, That way , if it warps, you get to pound it flat on a piece of half inch plate ,before installing it. Its very hard to straighten out after it is installed.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Somehow things came out a hair to wide for my cabin tops. Any tips on welding more material  to 11 gauge plate without adding much distortion? I need to add a foot on the aft edge of my pilothouse top, and about three inches to the side. -Marlin| 32920|32518|2015-09-11 17:37:34|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|I just came across this message Mr. Swain. What do you mean by "Little Boys" when referring to Mr. Perry? And what does this have to do with our conversation on this site about origami boats?| 32921|32518|2015-09-11 17:59:36|Matt Malone|Re: Hoarding knowledge| First, this is proof that no one pre-approves messages before they go out to the group, one of Mr. Perry's unfounded suspicions.   He did post here quite a bit for a time.  Second, it refers to an unfortunate incident between Mr. Swain and Mr. Perry where to disrespect Mr. Swain in another forum, Mr. Perry posted photos of little boys, purportedly his own children or grandchildren, with unknown additional implication against Mr. Swain.  Mr. Swain took this badly and may have read even more into it because in the other forum he felt he was being treated very unfairly and being attacked personally.  Mr. Swain made a less veiled implication back at Mr. Perry.  It is one of the stupidest exchanges that have occurred here, no one backs either of them in this particular foolishness.  Check the date on the last posting on that thread -- long dead.  Now you have succeeded in resurrecting a zombie of a line of discussion that never had anything to do with boats, and never did anyone any good.  If I can guess what will happen now, Mr. Swain will assume that you are in some way associated with Mr. Perry (probably an unfounded suspicion), and you wished to raise this again to unfairly smear him, and he will respond and around it will go again.  This one is best ignored.  Please start a new thread about boats.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 14:37:33 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hoarding knowledge   I just came across this message Mr. Swain. What do you mean by "Little Boys" when referring to Mr. Perry? And what does this have to do with our conversation on this site about origami boats? | 32922|32518|2015-09-11 18:34:36|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Hi MattMr. Swain's message that I responded to above is dated a couple of months ago. So I don't think I am the one resurrecting a zombie line of discussion. I have been around origamiboats for a while, but just came across this message as I said and it struck me as either very a disturbing accusation about Mr. Perry or a very defamatory accusation by Mr. Swain. I know a little about Mr. Perry's work but I am not associated with him and certainly can't afford his boats. I can say much the same about Mr. Swain. I am just learning here.I am interested to see this message of Mr. Perry's on whatever forum that was. That would help with the context. Do you or Mr. Swain have a url for that? I can't help what Mr. Swain thinks about me but if something like the above was implied about any of us in a public forum without cause, I don't think any of us would take it lightly.If it is old foolishness as you say I'll leave it alone. I hope you are right.Have a good day.| 32923|32518|2015-09-12 11:10:26|garyhlucas|Re: Hoarding knowledge| Yep this falls in the category of what destroys good forums, EGO. Please just let it die.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 6:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hoarding knowledge     Hi MattMr. Swain's message that I responded to above is dated a couple of months ago. So I don't think I am the one resurrecting a zombie line of discussion. I have been around origamiboats for a while, but just came across this message as I said and it struck me as either very a disturbing accusation about Mr. Perry or a very defamatory accusation by Mr. Swain. I know a little about Mr. Perry's work but I am not associated with him and certainly can't afford his boats. I can say much the same about Mr. Swain. I am just learning here.I am interested to see this message of Mr. Perry's on whatever forum that was. That would help with the context. Do you or Mr. Swain have a url for that? I can't help what Mr. Swain thinks about me but if something like the above was implied about any of us in a public forum without cause, I don't think any of us would take it lightly.If it is old foolishness as you say I'll leave it alone. I hope you are right.Have a good day.| 32924|32518|2015-09-13 16:48:56|brentswain38|Re: Hoarding knowledge|When we began discussing pros and cons of steel sailboats  on cruising.stuffiminto.com, a site which Perry and his friend eliminated from the internet by their abuse,  he started flooding the discussion with pictures of little boys and other irrelevant pictures, to sabotage the discussion. I pointed out that if any one want to see pictures of little boys, they would not do it by asking  a question about steel boats, but would probably do a search under "Little boys."So then Perry tried to sabotage this site by similar tactics, and in  his first few posts, condescendingly  insulted a everyone on this site.I  believe his obsession with sabotaging discussions of steel boats, comes from his deep seated insecurity about his total lack of any hands on experience with steel boats.I suspect the recent attempts to  flood this site with porn may have been from Perry , or his friends and groveling groupies. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I just came across this message Mr. Swain. What do you mean by "Little Boys" when referring to Mr. Perry? And what does this have to do with our conversation on this site about origami boats?| 32925|32518|2015-09-13 16:58:57|Gordon Schnell|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Is that sick sob back again? On Sep 13, 2015, at 2:48 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:When we began discussing pros and cons of steel sailboats  on cruising.stuffiminto.com, a site which Perry and his friend eliminated from the internet by their abuse,  he started flooding the discussion with pictures of little boys and other irrelevant pictures, to sabotage the discussion. I pointed out that if any one want to see pictures of little boys, they would not do it by asking  a question about steel boats, but would probably do a search under "Little boys."So then Perry tried to sabotage this site by similar tactics, and in  his first few posts, condescendingly  insulted a everyone on this site.I  believe his obsession with sabotaging discussions of steel boats, comes from his deep seated insecurity about his total lack of any hands on experience with steel boats.I suspect the recent attempts to  flood this site with porn may have been from Perry , or his friends and groveling groupies. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I just came across this message Mr. Swain. What do you mean by "Little Boys" when referring to Mr. Perry? And what does this have to do with our conversation on this site about origami boats?| 32926|32518|2015-09-15 23:22:11|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|I believe Mr. Swain started this forum and has a lot to offer for us lowly cruisers who are interested in alternative boat materials. So that's no way to refer to your host.I think an apology is in order.| 32927|32518|2015-09-18 09:09:54|jhess314|Re: Hoarding knowledge|According to post #1 Alex Christy started this forum. I appreciate all the many contributors to the discussion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I believe Mr. Swain started this forum and has a lot to offer for us lowly cruisers who are interested in alternative boat materials. So that's no way to refer to your host.I think an apology is in order.| 32928|32518|2015-09-18 13:09:14|Gordon Schnell|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Allow me to correct the misunderstanding….I was not speaking of Brent Swain, who I hold in high esteem. I was referring to “Mr.Perry”. On Sep 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, j.hess@... [origamiboats] wrote:According to post #1 Alex Christy started this forum. I appreciate all the many contributors to the discussion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I believe Mr. Swain started this forum and has a lot to offer for us lowly cruisers who are interested in alternative boat materials. So that's no way to refer to your host.I think an apology is in order.| 32929|32518|2015-09-18 14:38:36|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Oh I see. What makes you think Mr. Perry is a "sick sob"? I've never seen any evidence of that.| 32930|32518|2015-09-18 17:43:39|brentswain38|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Perry's egomaniac attempts to  turn any discussion group in to his  personal facebook page, and attack and ridicule anyone who offers innovation which may not agree with his  "elitist Yachting" priorities, along with his attempts to sabotage any steel boat  discussions, by posting pictures  of little boys and other irrelevant material, make him one sick SOB.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Oh I see. What makes you think Mr. Perry is a "sick sob"? I've never seen any evidence of that.| 32931|32518|2015-09-18 18:30:30|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|The fact that you and others may think he is elitist and hoards knowledge notwithstanding -I don't understand what you mean by "posting pictures of little boys". That certainly can be interpreted as something bad on the face of it as a statement or accusation, but it could also be something as innocent as posting pictures of ones children or grandchildren or the like. That happens all the time and there's absolutely nothing wrong with or "sick" about that.What exactly where these "pictures of little boys" and what was the context of the post? If you are going to accuse someone in a public forum of being a "sick SOB", especially the particular kind you are implying, I certainly think you need to provide some evidence to back that up. Calling someone elitist is one thing, but publicly accusing them of or even implying something potentially illegal without evidence is quite another.If you can't provide such evidence, Mr. Swain, I would humbly suggest you stop such accusations and keep the discussion focused on what we are all here for - origamiboats.| 32932|32518|2015-09-19 05:01:51|Tom Popp|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Is it time to go to a moderated group? Then the moderator can delete the posts from web trolls.If your post is not relevant to origami boats or boats in general, make it a private email.Sent from Samsung tablet| 32933|32518|2015-09-19 10:57:58|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|I would vote for that. That would mean Mr. Swain's posts in this thread would not exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation.| 32934|32518|2015-09-19 12:14:09|Matt Malone|Re: Hoarding knowledge| And around we go for another spin cycle.   I had guessed the reason that Mr. Swain left all of the posts, even the derogatory posts against him was because in other forums he felt the moderators edited him out.  So all of Mr. Perry's posts are still there, as are Mr. Swain's.It is at least a consistent approach, even if it makes the forum seem low rent, untidy, unorganized and some places, like this one, that I find regrettable.   Once editing starts, where does it stop, who decides.  If it is Mr. Swain then it is easier to attack him as editing out the "voices of reason".   The boat design industry is a competitive one.  If they can get someone's blood up by insulting them then they do, to make them look like an ass.  I have read the other forums.   Mr. Swain did not behave well when faced with those who were not being fair, I believe intentionally.     The alternative is one just lets this thread rest in peace and post something different that is relevant to boats.   Those old posts might be causing Mr. Perry some trouble, or bothering him that they still exist.  It is possible when one googles Mr. Perry that those posts figure somewhere in the results.   Unless one made a deliberate search, like a search for Mr. Perry's name for any other reason would be, those posts would be well buried.   If this truly is bothering Mr. Perry, he may desire that the forum is edited.   I have seen this happen before.   I tried a few searches, and, for me Google does not return any results from the origami boats forum.   But what Google shows people varies from person to person, depending on what you have searched before and clicked on.   I have seen this before too.  People obsessing about a negative google result are more likely to see that result longer than someone else who makes that same search for the first time.   So to see something of those posts, I had to get very specific in the google search terms, far more than just googling Mr. Perry like any of his clients might.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 07:57:57 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hoarding knowledge   I would vote for that. That would mean Mr. Swain's posts in this thread would not exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation. | 32935|32518|2015-09-20 04:29:04|Tom Popp|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Ninbubbas, what is your name and location? Most posters here use name and email. A google seatch of your email shows nothing except posts here on this forum. I have not read all your posts, but the general gist of what I did read suggests you are not interested in actually building a "Swain" Origami boat which is what this forum is about. So why are you posting here bringing up negatives from old posts?Sent from Samsung tablet| 32937|32518|2015-09-22 16:09:44|Matt Malone|Cheap Lead Opportunity in Nova Scotia| There are no doubt many cheap lead opportunities, but if there is someone on the east coast, here is a chance at a tonne of lead for less than 25 cents a pound.   The scrap yard near me charges $1+ a pound.  https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=203655&lcn=349370&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1<nf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-closMatt | 32938|32518|2015-09-23 17:35:00|brentswain38|Re: Cheap Lead Opportunity in Nova Scotia|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Wow. That is cheap!#ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}There are no doubt many cheap lead opportunities, but if there is someone on the east coast, here is a chance at a tonne of lead for less than 25 cents a pound.   The scrap yard near me charges $1+ a pound.  https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=203655&lcn=349370&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1<nf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-closMatt #ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ExternalClass 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.ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1571079040 #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369 .ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1571079040ygrps-yiv-692045369ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32939|32939|2015-09-23 17:45:43|brentswain38|Touch up maintnace sandbasting|I have found that grinding never gives you as good paint adhesion as sandblasting . I have hooked up  the First stage of a dive regulator on a tank to a cheap blaster. Works well ,but drains the tank quickly.  Good for doing maintenance of dings when there is an scuba air supply handy. Best do your best chipping job first, then blast for the final cleaning. I have also found that a propane tank has up to 125 PSI pressure.I hope to hook one up to my mini blaster , in a strong wind, in the  middle of nowhere. and see how it works.I will have the boat well sealed to  stop any from getting below decks. A blasted surface lasts  a lot longer than a ground one ,after painting,without requiring any further maintenance.| 32940|32518|2015-09-23 17:58:24|brentswain38|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Right. Delete any posts which contain out  of the box, innovative thinking, so the ship  swindlers  expensive disinformation will go unchallenged ,just like they do on most other sites.Those who stick to honesty are automatically attacked by those at the opposite end of the spectrum, who see them as a threat. I have been personally attacked constantly, by Perry and his sucking, grovelling groupies on any other site I have posed on, attached and ridiculed on every post I make, regardless of content.So did I hurt his feelings? Cry me a river. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!I just got an email from a guy who just read my book. Said the marine "Yachty' industry has screwed him at every turn. Said it is great to get the honest, accurate info in my book, or words to that effect,.Alex first set up this site.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would vote for that. That would mean Mr. Swain's posts in this thread would not exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation.| 32941|32518|2015-09-23 18:17:52|ninbubbas|Re: Hoarding knowledge|Mr. Swain - I'm not advocating deleting posts that contain out of the box, innovative thinking, either yours or anyone else's. That's exactly why I'm here. To research and discuss the application of that thinking.But that's not what this current discussion is about. Your initial post contained a potentially defamatory accusation against Mr. Perry implying something seriously illegal. And it seems to be an accusation that you can produce no evidence for.That goes far beyond disagreement or argument over what the "Yachty" industry is doing or the merits or detriments of Mr. Perry's participation in it. Argue as much as you'd like over methods, materials, or philosophies, but don't cross the line. Just stick with honest, accurate information about origamiboats. That should be enough. It will either stand or fall on its own merit.I personally think you owe the man an apology. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Right. Delete any posts which contain out  of the box, innovative thinking, so the ship  swindlers  expensive disinformation will go unchallenged ,just like they do on most other sites.Those who stick to honesty are automatically attacked by those at the opposite end of the spectrum, who see them as a threat. I have been personally attacked constantly, by Perry and his sucking, grovelling groupies on any other site I have posed on, attached and ridiculed on every post I make, regardless of content.So did I hurt his feelings? Cry me a river. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!I just got an email from a guy who just read my book. Said the marine "Yachty' industry has screwed him at every turn. Said it is great to get the honest, accurate info in my book, or words to that effect,.Alex first set up this site.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would vote for that. That would mean Mr. Swain's posts in this thread would not exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation. | 32942|32942|2015-09-23 18:22:56|Tom Popp|Aluminum Boat project for sale|In the Portland, Oregon area, on Craigslist someone has:   For sale, 28ft. aluminum sail boat hull mounted on two axle trailer. The hull is a Roberts design and comes with a complete set of prints for finishing the boat. Also included are a Yanmar diesel engine, boom and mast, two sheets of 3/16 aluminum, and approx. 3200lbs of lead ballast.  https://portland.craigslist.org/yam/boa/5229353507.html Not Origami, but for an Builder in Aluminum, might be worth picking up for the $5950 asking price. Pics on ad site | 32943|32942|2015-09-23 18:34:52|ninbubbas|Re: Aluminum Boat project for sale|Wow! For a framed hull that actually looks nicely fair! And depending on the condition of that Yanmar, that could be a very good price!I've got an ignorant question: Do lead and aluminum get along okay? I've heard a lot of horror stories about dissimilar metal issues with aluminum.| 32944|32942|2015-09-24 00:32:55|Darren Bos|Re: Aluminum Boat project for sale| Nothing gets along with aluminum (except for zinc) if there is electrolyte present.  I've spent the last few months removing steel ballast that was eating its way through my keel (steel is closer to aluminum in the galvanic series than lead).  However, if you do as Brent suggests and weld a plate on top of the ballast and seal it air tight, then you can put just about any metals together (without an electrolyte there is no galvanic corrosion).  I'm welding the keel up now, and I will put lead right into the new aluminum box.  However, unlike the previous builder who sealed the ballast with epoxy goo, I'm welding the ballast compartment shut.  I'm also putting in a header tank above waterline that will be filled with oil (silicon oil I think), so that if the ballast compartment ever gets a leak it will slowly leak silicone oil, rather than get water in there and cause corrosion. Has anyone here ever tried welding metal after it has been in contact with silicon oil? Darren On 15-09-23 03:34 PM, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Wow! For a framed hull that actually looks nicely fair! And depending on the condition of that Yanmar, that could be a very good price! I've got an ignorant question: Do lead and aluminum get along okay? I've heard a lot of horror stories about dissimilar metal issues with aluminum. | 32945|32945|2015-09-24 08:42:45|Pat's Yahoo|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|Not a great idea to use propane for safety resons.The pressure of propane is temperature dependent, the higher the temp the higher the pressure. The pressure Brent mentioned is at about 78F of the liquid propane. As the propane vapour is drawn out, the liquid boils to replace the vapour. The heat needed to boil the liquid comes from the mass of the liquid. This works well to keep the vapour pressure up as long as the liquid can absorb "new" heat via the tank or cylinder wall as fast as it uses it to boil the liquid. If not, the liquid gets chilled ever more rapidly thus dropping the vapour pressure very quickly.Here is a link to a Temperature/Preesure Chart for propane.http://virtualmark.net/wx/pressure.htmGood luck and stay safe.Pat Collins   M.E.,  R.S.E...Life is the toughest teacherIt gives the test first, then the lesson afterwards| 32946|32945|2015-09-24 12:27:06|jpronk1|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|I don't think Brent was saying to use propane for sand blasting but to use the tank as an air reservoir or air pig. JamesSent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Pat's Yahoo pat.collins94@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Not a great idea to use propane for safety resons.The pressure of propane is temperature dependent, the higher the temp the higher the pressure. The pressure Brent mentioned is at about 78F of the liquid propane. As the propane vapour is drawn out, the liquid boils to replace the vapour. The heat needed to boil the liquid comes from the mass of the liquid. This works well to keep the vapour pressure up as long as the liquid can absorb "new" heat via the tank or cylinder wall as fast as it uses it to boil the liquid. If not, the liquid gets chilled ever more rapidly thus dropping the vapour pressure very quickly.Here is a link to a Temperature/Preesure Chart for propane.http://virtualmark.net/wx/pressure.htmGood luck and stay safe.Pat Collins   M.E.,  R.S.E...Life is the toughest teacherIt gives the test first, then the lesson afterwards | 32947|32945|2015-09-24 12:34:30|jpronk1|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|I have in the past made air pigs out of old propane tanks. Make sure tank is empty, unscrew the valve, screw in a short peace of pipe, then a tee. I put a air valve on one side of the tee and an air line on the other. Filled it one time with a hand pump!Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Pat's Yahoo pat.collins94@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Not a great idea to use propane for safety resons.The pressure of propane is temperature dependent, the higher the temp the higher the pressure. The pressure Brent mentioned is at about 78F of the liquid propane. As the propane vapour is drawn out, the liquid boils to replace the vapour. The heat needed to boil the liquid comes from the mass of the liquid. This works well to keep the vapour pressure up as long as the liquid can absorb "new" heat via the tank or cylinder wall as fast as it uses it to boil the liquid. If not, the liquid gets chilled ever more rapidly thus dropping the vapour pressure very quickly.Here is a link to a Temperature/Preesure Chart for propane.http://virtualmark.net/wx/pressure.htmGood luck and stay safe.Pat Collins   M.E.,  R.S.E...Life is the toughest teacherIt gives the test first, then the lesson afterwards | 32948|32945|2015-09-24 13:00:38|Hannu Venermo|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|Coo. What pressure in bars ? On 24/09/2015 18:34, jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I have in the past made air pigs out of old propane tanks. Make sure > tank is empty, unscrew the valve, screw in a short peace of pipe, then > a tee. I put a air valve on one side of the tee and an air line on the > other. Filled it one time with a hand pump! > > Sent from my iPhone -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32949|32945|2015-09-24 13:00:42|Hannu Venermo|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|Cool. What pressure in bars ? On 24/09/2015 18:34, jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I have in the past made air pigs out of old propane tanks. Make sure > tank is empty, unscrew the valve, screw in a short peace of pipe, then > a tee. I put a air valve on one side of the tee and an air line on the > other. Filled it one time with a hand pump! > > Sent from my iPhone -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32950|32518|2015-09-24 18:13:13|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Hoarding knowledge|From this side of the pond this thread seems absolutely incredible.Ninbubbas seemingly innocent lead into it seems,with hindsight,to be purely shit stirring.Whatever Mr Swains issues with Mr Perry,played out on another site,have no relevance to this one.I do not know anything about Mr Perry/s abilities or experience but I do value Mr Swain's and this thread serves no purpose whatsoever in the way that it has developed.cheersAndrew Airey| 32951|32942|2015-09-24 20:34:30|Larry Dale|Re: Aluminum Boat project for sale|If this is a Spray design then you should ask around. I have plans for a Spray 27 that I never built because Larry Paraday warned me that they won't come about without back winding the jib.  From: "Tom Popp TDPOPP@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 6:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Boat project for sale In the Portland, Oregon area, on Craigslist someone has:   For sale, 28ft. aluminum sail boat hull mounted on two axle trailer. The hull is a Roberts design and comes with a complete set of prints for finishing the boat. Also included are a Yanmar diesel engine, boom and mast, two sheets of 3/16 aluminum, and approx. 3200lbs of lead ballast.  https://portland.craigslist.org/yam/boa/5229353507.html Not Origami, but for an Builder in Aluminum, might be worth picking up for the $5950 asking price. Pics on ad site | 32952|32945|2015-09-25 10:09:45|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|I bought an engine stand from a student who had been using it for Jet engine research.The rig consisted of a Fiat lorry turbocharger coupled to a tall propane cylinder.Under test it used propane so rapidly that the outside of the tank developed a coating of ice about half way down within a couple of minutes.Whether this affected the test results he didn't say.Failure mode on the big industrial tanks (not what we are talking about) is around the end seam.About 30 years ago I was looking for industrial premises in Lincoln and approached Clarks Crank and Forge who were downsizing as a result of Maggie Thatchers first recession.While on the premises I noticed a large propane tank separated from the adjacent supermarket by a rather flimsy brick wall.I passed some remark about the consequences for the supermarket if the tank failed and was told no problem - if the end failed it would take off like a rocket and go through the cathedral.I hope he was jokingcheersAndy Airey| 32953|32942|2015-09-25 14:47:32|mkriley48|Re: Aluminum Boat project for sale|this is not a spray but a more modern designmike| 32954|32945|2015-09-25 15:25:29|Guy Hockley|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)| From: ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]Sent: ‎25/‎09/‎2015 15:09To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)   I bought an engine stand from a student who had been using it for Jet engine research.The rig consisted of a Fiat lorry turbocharger coupled to a tall propane cylinder.Under test it used propane so rapidly that the outside of the tank developed a coating of ice about half way down within a couple of minutes.Whether this affected the test results he didn't say.Failure mode on the big industrial tanks (not what we are talking about) is around the end seam.About 30 years ago I was looking for industrial premises in Lincoln and approached Clarks Crank and Forge who were downsizing as a result of Maggie Thatchers first recession.While on the premises I noticed a large propane tank separated from the adjacent supermarket by a rather flimsy brick wall.I passed some remark about the consequences for the supermarket if the tank failed and was told no problem - if the end failed it would take off like a rocket and go through the cathedral.I hope he was jokingcheersAndy Airey | 32955|32945|2015-09-25 19:11:50|jpronk1|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|Not sure of bars?  100 psi is what the pump gage read. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Cool. What pressure in bars ? On 24/09/2015 18:34, jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I have in the past made air pigs out of old propane tanks. Make sure > tank is empty, unscrew the valve, screw in a short peace of pipe, then > a tee. I put a air valve on one side of the tee and an air line on the > other. Filled it one time with a hand pump! > > Sent from my iPhone -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32956|32518|2015-09-25 23:13:24|Brian Stannard|Re: Hoarding knowledge|AndrewIf you are not aware of Robert Perry's designs and abilities you can see a list of his designs here: http://sailboatdata.com/view_designer.asp?designer_id=46 On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:13 PM, ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote:   From this side of the pond this thread seems absolutely incredible.Ninbubbas seemingly innocent lead into it seems,with hindsight,to be purely shit stirring.Whatever Mr Swains issues with Mr Perry,played out on another site,have no relevance to this one.I do not know anything about Mr Perry/s abilities or experience but I do value Mr Swain's and this thread serves no purpose whatsoever in the way that it has developed.cheersAndrew Airey -- CheersBrian | 32957|32518|2015-09-25 23:34:22|Matt Malone|Re: Hoarding knowledge| Thank you.  I looked at Perry's own website some time ago and did not see anything interesting, a few unattractive designs, and no sign any of them had been built.  There was certainly no mention of all of these designs.  I looked at boat designs for some time before purchasing, certainly I had heard of some of the ones on Perry's list but I am quite sure I never investigated a boat of any of those designs seriously.  They are all too new, post-oil crisis, when the cost of resin went up and hulls became wide and thinner shells.    A lot of boats were built in those designs so they sure did appeal to some people, an awful lot of people.  I understand better now.  I wonder if there is another designer more responsible for the proliferation of mass production fiberglass. Matt "Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Andrew If you are not aware of Robert Perry's designs and abilities you can see a list of his designs here: http://sailboatdata.com/view_designer.asp?designer_id=46 On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:13 PM, ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote:   From this side of the pond this thread seems absolutely incredible.Ninbubbas seemingly innocent lead into it seems,with hindsight,to be purely shit stirring.Whatever Mr Swains issues with Mr Perry,played out on another site,have no relevance to this one.I do not know anything about Mr Perry/s abilities or experience but I do value Mr Swain's and this thread serves no purpose whatsoever in the way that it has developed. cheers Andrew Airey -- Cheers Brian | 32958|32958|2015-09-25 23:43:37|wild_explorer|Macropoxy 920|I was told the story that I had hard time to believe....Story:The original product was used by Navy to paint over rusted metal to stop the corrosion. It sealed the rust and...."penetrated inside the metal between grains" (??? this I have a hard time to believe). After application, the metal never rusted again. But original product was too toxic and SW somehow modified it to be more "green".End of Story.Reading the description of the product, it just says that it modifies some rust, penetrates into tight spots and can be used on galvanized metal.http://protective.sherwin-williams.com/detail.jsp?A=sku-26187%3Aproduct-6846 Did anyone used/know this product?| 32959|32959|2015-09-25 23:59:41|wild_explorer|Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Did anyone used it for removing the rust from the steel (large objects, plates, etc)?According to Wiki"One of the most important applications of hydrochloric acid is in the pickling of steel, to remove rust or iron oxide scale from iron or steel before subsequent processing, such as extrusion, rolling, galvanizing, and other techniques.Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hydrochloric acid is a clear, colorless, highly pungent solution of hydrogen chloride (HCl) in water. It is a highly corrosive, strong mineral acid with man... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo  Technical quality HCl at typically 18% concentration is the most commonly used pickling agent for the pickling of carbon steel grades"The price from hardware stores is about $7/Gal. I did use it on small parts to remove rust (submerged it in diluted by water mixture for 24hr). Works great. No rust anymore - just pitting where the rust was.I am wondering how it will work if it just sprayed on the steel? Any experience anyone?P.S. It is need to rinse and protect metal from oxidation right away, or it will start rusting again at no time.| 32960|32959|2015-09-26 01:13:05|Aaron|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust| I have used it to clean the inside of lube oil lines for compressors and pumps, but those were in the shop and easy to flush clean and dry. The problem is getting it off of or neutralized on a large project. Aaron From: "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 7:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust   Did anyone used it for removing the rust from the steel (large objects, plates, etc)?According to Wiki"One of the most important applications of hydrochloric acid is in the pickling of steel, to remove rust or iron oxide scale from iron or steel before subsequent processing, such as extrusion, rolling, galvanizing, and other techniques.Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hydrochloric acid is a clear, colorless, highly pungent solution of hydrogen chloride (HCl) in water. It is a highly corrosive, strong mineral acid with man... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo  Technical quality HCl at typically 18% concentration is the most commonly used pickling agent for the pickling of carbon steel grades"The price from hardware stores is about $7/Gal. I did use it on small parts to remove rust (submerged it in diluted by water mixture for 24hr). Works great. No rust anymore - just pitting where the rust was.I am wondering how it will work if it just sprayed on the steel? Any experience anyone?P.S. 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#ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1522032943 #ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360 #ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1522032943 #ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360 #ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1522032943 #ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360 #ygrps-yiv-1522032943yiv2521863360ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1522032943 | 32961|32958|2015-09-26 01:39:57|opuspaul|Re: Macropoxy 920|I have used a similar product and written about it several times in the past.   They are very thin (like water) and penetrate right into tight rust to form a seal while also retaining a thin film on outside corners.   These kind of sealers work great for marginal  prepared areas but they are not as good as dry sand blasting.  They are very thin so the wick into microscopic pores and cracks.  Since they are so thin, they will still need the high build epoxy top coats.   I would use it again as a prep coat after water blasting or as a tie coat for marginal surfaces.  A little bit goes a long way.The product I used was called Rustbond, made by Carboline.http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922PPG (Ameron) also makes a similar product called Amerlock Sealer.  Just google it.Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I was told the story that I had hard time to believe....Story:The original product was used by Navy to paint over rusted metal to stop the corrosion. It sealed the rust and...."penetrated inside the metal between grains" (??? this I have a hard time to believe). After application, the metal never rusted again. But original product was too toxic and SW somehow modified it to be more "green".End of Story.Reading the description of the product, it just says that it modifies some rust, penetrates into tight spots and can be used on galvanized metal.http://protective.sherwin-williams.com/detail.jsp?A=sku-26187%3Aproduct-6846Did anyone used/know this product? | 32962|32945|2015-09-26 02:35:06|Hannu Venermo|Re: Touch up maintnace sandbasting (using propane)|100 psi = 6.8 bars = atmospheres. Modern bike pumps go to 10 bars. Car tires are 2-3 bars. Fwiw.. Scuba tanks are 200 bars. High pressure coolant on cnc machines is 60-80 bars. Expensive. Cool stuff: Modern seals on 80 bars == 1200 psi, at 10.000 to 15.000 rpm, on machine tool spindles, are flat. No rubber. A carbide face, against a hard, flat hardened steel face. Very very, flat, with very little clearance. They dont leak, and can last years. Also called a rotary union, costs a couple hundred. On 26/09/2015 01:11, jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Not sure of bars? 100 psi is what the pump gage read. > > Sent from my iPhone -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 32963|32959|2015-09-26 08:28:49|Matt Malone|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust| Hydrochloric acid can be very dangerous to work with.  Working with anything spread thinly on a large surface can amplify its hazard.   Working with anything in an enclosed space (inside the hull) can amplify its hazard further.  Hydrochloric acid is actually a gas dissolved in water, very similar to how ammonia is a gas that is dissolved in water.   It is a very bad idea to buy gallons of hydrochloric acid and start using it on a steel boat.  You could very easily and quickly cause yourself serious lung damage.   I have seen people use phosphoric acid as a pickling agent, but never on anything large, and never in an enclosed space.   I have no idea of a phosphoric acid pickling is of any use in sea water.  I have seen citric acid used to remove rust on small things -- it works a lot like CLR (calcium, lime rust) stain remover.   This does not pickle the surface, it just removes rust.   I think sand blasting as been recommended as the best method for an origami.  Please consult a professional, and not a salesman and not the internet, before trying anything like a chemical short cut.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 05:13:03 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust    I have used it to clean the inside of lube oil lines for compressors and pumps, but those were in the shop and easy to flush clean and dry. The problem is getting it off of or neutralized on a large project. Aaron From: "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 7:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust   Did anyone used it for removing the rust from the steel (large objects, plates, etc)?According to Wiki"One of the most important applications of hydrochloric acid is in the pickling of steel, to remove rust or iron oxide scale from iron or steel before subsequent processing, such as extrusion, rolling, galvanizing, and other techniques.Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hydrochloric acid is a clear, colorless, highly pungent solution of hydrogen chloride (HCl) in water. It is a highly corrosive, strong mineral acid with man... View on en.wikipedia.org Preview by Yahoo  Technical quality HCl at typically 18% concentration is the most commonly used pickling agent for the pickling of carbon steel grades"The price from hardware stores is about $7/Gal. I did use it on small parts to remove rust (submerged it in diluted by water mixture for 24hr). Works great. No rust anymore - just pitting where the rust was.I am wondering how it will work if it just sprayed on the steel? Any experience anyone?P.S. It is need to rinse and protect metal from oxidation right away, or it will start rusting again at no time. | 32964|32959|2015-09-26 12:54:47|wild_explorer|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Yep, it is VERY dangerous (just read MSD).I am asking because diluted Muriatic acid is commonly used for "bottom wash" on steel hulls to remove accumulated "marine life". Even in open area it requires full protective gears (respirator, gloves, protective suit, etc).Similar usage for "bottom wash" with diluted oxalic acid on fiberglass hulls - very dangerous too.Agree. Do not be a monkey with a gun :-)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1406167355 #ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914 .ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1406167355 #ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914 .ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Hydrochloric acid can be very dangerous to work with.  Working with anything spread thinly on a large surface can amplify its hazard.   Working with anything in an enclosed space (inside the hull) can amplify its hazard further.  Hydrochloric acid is actually a gas dissolved in water, very similar to how ammonia is a gas that is dissolved in water.   ...Skipped...It is a very bad idea to buy gallons of hydrochloric acid and start using it on a steel boat.  You could very easily and quickly cause yourself serious lung damage.   Please consult a professional, and not a salesman and not the internet, before trying anything 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.ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1406167355 #ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914 .ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1406167355ygrps-yiv-1967984914ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 32965|32959|2015-09-26 17:37:49|garyhlucas|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust| Read the MSDS for Hydrofluoric Acid before you get upset over Hydrochloric.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2015 12:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust     Yep, it is VERY dangerous (just read MSD).I am asking because diluted Muriatic acid is commonly used for "bottom wash" on steel hulls to remove accumulated "marine life". Even in open area it requires full protective gears (respirator, gloves, protective suit, etc).Similar usage for "bottom wash" with diluted oxalic acid on fiberglass hulls - very dangerous too. Agree. Do not be a monkey with a gun :-)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hydrochloric acid can be very dangerous to work with.  Working with anything spread thinly on a large surface can amplify its hazard.   Working with anything in an enclosed space (inside the hull) can amplify its hazard further.  Hydrochloric acid is actually a gas dissolved in water, very similar to how ammonia is a gas that is dissolved in water.   ...Skipped...It is a very bad idea to buy gallons of hydrochloric acid and start using it on a steel boat.  You could very easily and quickly cause yourself serious lung damage.   Please consult a professional, and not a salesman and not the internet, before trying anything like a chemical short cut.Matt  | 32966|32959|2015-09-27 12:50:44|theboilerflue|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Muratic acid works great for taking rust bloom off of paint on deck before putting another coat on but it tends to just make steel rust more on any spots not painted. I wouldn't use it as a preping method for painting bare steel or anything like that. Blasting really is all you need to do. Why are asking wild? are you thinking that you could get away without blasting? I think the answer is no.| 32967|32959|2015-09-27 16:07:15|wild_explorer|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Actually I can get away without sand blasting (my steel is wheelabraded), but I do not see much of the reason to do it.I was thinking if it is possible to use diluted acid to remove some rust from the areas inaccessible  to sand blaster (or soda blaster). Like between stringers and plate, or between the hull and under-the-deck (which is not welded) with a local spraying. But it raises the question how to neutralize the acid. Neutralizer suppose to have better penetration ability than acid mixture to ensure complete removal of the acid.Another application (as you already mentioned) to remove some rust (without blasting) from bulwark/deck area which got some rust. And from SS bulwark pipe.So... I am still thinking what could be better. Any ideas welcome.I might make sense to use that penetrating rust modifier/sealant from SW or what Paul mentioned. I should go between stringers/plate according to MSDS. But, it would be better to be able to remove some rust before applying it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Muratic acid works great for taking rust bloom off of paint on deck before putting another coat on but it tends to just make steel rust more on any spots not painted. I wouldn't use it as a preping method for painting bare steel or anything like that. Blasting really is all you need to do. Why are asking wild? are you thinking that you could get away without blasting? I think the answer is no.| 32968|32518|2015-09-27 18:09:59|jpronk1|Re: Hoarding knowledge|So how many of these has he ever build? I mean lay up the cloth or weld up a hull or show the owner/builder how to build there own boat and save money doing it? Does he help with building hardware that is rugged enough to drag one of his boats off a reef?How long has he lived on one of his boats? Can he help me from not becoming a slave in a consuming driven society?How many days has one of these boats been pounded in the surf, run aground? I love sailing and cruising. Can l build one or his boats in a field with minimal equipment for around 30 to 40 thousand?Are we comparing apples to oranges?Thank you,JamesSent from my iPhone On Sep 25, 2015, at 11:13 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   AndrewIf you are not aware of Robert Perry's designs and abilities you can see a list of his designs here: http://sailboatdata.com/view_designer.asp?designer_id=46On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:13 PM, ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote:   From this side of the pond this thread seems absolutely incredible.Ninbubbas seemingly innocent lead into it seems,with hindsight,to be purely shit stirring.Whatever Mr Swains issues with Mr Perry,played out on another site,have no relevance to this one.I do not know anything about Mr Perry/s abilities or experience but I do value Mr Swain's and this thread serves no purpose whatsoever in the way that it has developed.cheersAndrew Airey -- CheersBrian | 32969|32959|2015-09-28 14:00:34|theboilerflue|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Oh I see, good thing that was abraded. the acid just turns the steel rusty again pretty much right away, it'll completely dissolve any rust thats on it but it also seems to just speed up new rusting. Blasting the abraded stuff goes pretty quick, you've only had that plate for a few years so the rust shouldn't be too bad and it takes just a light pass over with the blaster to make it dissapear, the rest of the shop primed stuff benefits from a pass over with the blaster too just to rough it up. I just did the nearly the whole outside of a bs36 with a 14cfm compressor and a 10gallon blasting pot (1/4" nozzle). The compressor couldn't really keep up with any decent pressure except for the first 30 seconds or so but even at about 60lbs which it would stay at it cleaned up the paint quite well and knocked off all the zinc oxide leaving a nice surface for the paint. I did my boat with a big blaster pot (3/8" nozzle) and a 185cfm tow behind compressor. it's pretty dirty but you're done the whole boat in a day.| 32970|32959|2015-09-28 22:50:43|wild_explorer|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|I see... I asked to use Interplate 937 primer on a hull plate. And it holds up pretty good. I did specify the same primer for 11 Ga plates and stringers, but it was another supplier and I suspect they used another primer (it is not as good as on the hull's plate).OK... Looks like using acid is acceptable only on easily accessible areas (where there is no problem to wash it off and neutralize it. It is need to seal the metal right away as well to prevent steel oxidation (acid removes all "protective" layers).Brent is frequently mentions removing welding smoke from a plate with vinegar (diluted mild acid), but he usually forget to remind that it is need to be washed out with water or be neutralized. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Oh I see, good thing that was abraded. the acid just turns the steel rusty again pretty much right away, it'll completely dissolve any rust thats on it but it also seems to just speed up new rusting. Blasting the abraded stuff goes pretty quick, you've only had that plate for a few years so the rust shouldn't be too bad and it takes just a light pass over with the blaster to make it dissapear, the rest of the shop primed stuff benefits from a pass over with the blaster too just to rough it up. | 32971|32971|2015-09-28 23:26:51|wild_explorer|Blasting off zinc shop primer|There is another question. Shop primer is usually used only during construction to keep the steel from rusting badly. And it is much more pleasant to work with a primed plate. Steel rust a little over few years during the construction even with a weld-through zinc shop primer.But... If it is need to sandblast finished project anyway. So... It might be a good reason NOT to use zinc primer again. First, it is expensive - about $100/Gal. Second, it sacrifice itself in case of coating failure and can make a problem worse (lifting the paint with zinc oxide).Would not it be better to use penetrating sealant (for submerged application on outside of the hull) on blasted metal instead of zinc primer? Primer for submerged application (for potable water tanks):- Carboline Carboguard 61- Sherwin-Williams Macropoxy 646 PW| 32972|32972|2015-09-29 00:28:34|wild_explorer|Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|I was thinking about using belts to drive the prop shaft (or transmission) from the engine. Possibly multi-belt system (several belts for reliability).Pros:- flexibility in alignment and engine/motor location, less vibration - easy to replace primary power unit (diesel, electric motor, etc)- easy to change gear ratio (just use different pulley)- possible to get exact needed RPMs for a prop- reliable- shock absorbent (even if prop hit something and stops, belts will take the shock or spins on a pulley)- power take-off (for welder, pump, etc)- possible to substitute the belt (make it from a rope, leather, etc)Cons:- need to carry extra belts (in case of failure)- find correct belt system which will handle 3-4 times of power unit's HP- needs belt tensioner and frequent adjustment- what else?In this case, the transmission is needed just for reverse.| 32973|32972|2015-09-29 10:06:10|Matt Malone|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft| Hello Wild,Belts can be good - look at all the new Harleys, they are all belts - look at a lot of smaller car engines, they are frequently belts for the cam shaft.  These are modern belts specifically engineered to the application.  The serpentine belt that runs the water pump, alternator, air conditioning and power steering in most cars is extra thin and wide to get higher reliability.  Most modern cars draw so much power from their alternator constantly (about 40-45 A) that if the alternator belt fails, the battery will drain of useful starting power in a very short time.  A more reliable belt than the old V-belt was necessary.   I would use this as an example to shy away from using V-belts.  Belts are going to take up more space.  The larger the radii that the belts turn around, the less they wear and the longer they last for a given belt.   Therefore larger pulleys are better.  Therefore more space.   If you ever get water in the space where the belts are, the belts and pulleys will throw it more effectively than a small diameter flex coupler.   If you are using multiple belts, you might want 2 or 3 spares already hanging around each shaft at each end.  That way if one of the multiple belts breaks, you can stop the engine and pull a spare from the end closest to the broken one.   Without spares in place around at least one of the two shafts (to easily pop on over the end pulley on the other shaft), one would have to unmount all the remaining belts to thread a replacement in.   While there are many examples of cantilevered shafts (no bearing at the end), having a shaft with a bearing at both ends and pulleys between better handles stresses.  The engine for instance would then only have to provide axial torque and bear a fraction of the belt tension force.  With a cantilevered shaft, the engine output bearing would have to hold and additional off-axis torque resulting at minimum in a multiple of the belt tension force on the bearing.  When all these things are properly engineered, one may have long life -- look at large capacity air moving units in industrial applications, a 5 or 10 hp electric motor turning a fan via a belt.  Also, how many boats have you seen with belts in the driveline hidden away below decks?  I do not think it is just fashion, I think there is a reason.   For this last reason alone, I would not choose a belt drive.Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 21:28:33 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft   I was thinking about using belts to drive the prop shaft (or transmission) from the engine. Possibly multi-belt system (several belts for reliability).Pros:- flexibility in alignment and engine/motor location, less vibration - easy to replace primary power unit (diesel, electric motor, etc)- easy to change gear ratio (just use different pulley)- possible to get exact needed RPMs for a prop- reliable- shock absorbent (even if prop hit something and stops, belts will take the shock or spins on a pulley)- power take-off (for welder, pump, etc)- possible to substitute the belt (make it from a rope, leather, etc)Cons:- need to carry extra belts (in case of failure)- find correct belt system which will handle 3-4 times of power unit's HP- needs belt tensioner and frequent adjustment- what else?In this case, the transmission is needed just for reverse. | 32974|32972|2015-09-29 11:12:57|Darren Bos|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft| I would add to the list: 1) efficiency can be as high as 98%, but only with lots of adjustment and maintenance.  Depending on the belts and pulleys you choose, efficiency could be considerably lower. 2) V-belts will require more frequent adjustment and multiple v-belts even more so 3)  belt drives seem to work in electric drives, but aren't common on diesel drive, probably because the output from electric is more constant and adds to reliability.  Also, electric tends to be used at lower power levels. 4)  a single belt will be easier to keep in adjustment than multiple belts. Overall, I think a belt drive would make installation easier, but lead to more maintenance, lower efficiency and lower reliability. Darren On 15-09-28 09:28 PM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I was thinking about using belts to drive the prop shaft (or transmission) from the engine. Possibly multi-belt system (several belts for reliability). Pros: - flexibility in alignment and engine/motor location, less vibration - easy to replace primary power unit (diesel, electric motor, etc) - easy to change gear ratio (just use different pulley) - possible to get exact needed RPMs for a prop - reliable - shock absorbent (even if prop hit something and stops, belts will take the shock or spins on a pulley) - power take-off (for welder, pump, etc) - possible to substitute the belt (make it from a rope, leather, etc) Cons: - need to carry extra belts (in case of failure) - find correct belt system which will handle 3-4 times of power unit's HP - needs belt tensioner and frequent adjustment - what else? In this case, the transmission is needed just for reverse. | 32975|32972|2015-09-29 12:32:43|rhko47|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|Wild, Donald Street devoted a couple of pages to this subject in The Ocean Sailing Yacht (1973) , touching on many of the points you made.  He mentioned then that it was a rather old solution, and cited examples from the 1930s.  If it's such a good idea, why did it never catch on, even in an era when most vessels were custom built?  Oddly, he did not mention the problem of obtaining reverse rotation, which to my thinking is the deal breaker: if you have to have a gearbox, why not have it bolted to the engine and doing the job of reduction as well as reversal?  The only ways I have thought of or discovered for reverse rotation with belts are twisted belts (which aren't going to last long) and what's called a Scotch wheel, where the (flat) belt is run with its "back" side (the one on the outside of the driving wheel) against the driven wheel. The use of toothed belts, as in the timing belt of some autos or the primary drive in a Harley, is an excellent idea, as they can transmit much more power than v-belts.  However, they cannot be twisted or run on a Scotch wheel.Finally, think of the labor would be involved in changing even a single belt: loosen the belts, remove the bearing from one end of each shaft, remove any intervening belts (really, you might as well replace all belts at once, as the unbroken ones will have stretched, making adjustment to even tension impossible), replace the belt(s), replace the bearings, readjust the tension.As for power takeoff, you can buy a separate pulley that bolts on in front of your water pump or alternator pulley, and run a V-belt from that to whatever.How about using a continuously variable ratio transmission, as pioneered in the 1950s and recently reintroduced in autos?  That keeps the engine running in it's efficient, no-smoke sweet spot of rpm whether you are going full speed or no-wake.Rich| 32976|32971|2015-09-29 13:35:08|theboilerflue|Re: Blasting off zinc shop primer|No I would not recommend using un-primed steel if you can get the steel primed before hand or that having to blast the steel anyway negates the advantage of using primed steel to begin with. Sand blasting entirely rusty scaley un-primed steel is painstakingly slow and reqires a blaster that puts out good pressure to actually blast away the scale. Blasing a hull that's been shop-primed you just have to pass over the maybe 20% of the hull that's got a bit of surface rust on it around the welds and scratches, you will roughed up the rest of the just by being in close proximity to whats being blasted. This pays most on the inside where you really can see what you're doing and you just wave the wand around wildly. The rust on primed steel just flies away instantly but rusty un-primed plate you've got to move way more slowly and diligently.| 32977|32972|2015-09-29 13:47:07|theboilerflue|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|there would have to be some sort of thrust 9in both directions if you've got reverse bearing and bearing to counter the pull of the belts and you'd have aligne that just as would an engine, granted it would  bounce around like an engine. but it be the same amount of work to do that.| 32978|32972|2015-09-29 15:29:47|Aaron|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|WildElectric motors use both gear reduction and or pulleys to get the correct top speed for the prop to match the motor. The ICE engine needs the gear box for neutral since the engine has such a high idle speed.Nani Diesel has a set up using a belt drive with an electric generator or electric propulsion so it can be done. You will need the correct type of thrust bearings to control the loading but those are easy to find. I don't think using a ICE with a belt drive would have any economic benefit unless you were planning on adding the generator/motor to the system. Electric Boats group has covered a little bit about this as a subject.Aaron From: "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 8:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft   I was thinking about using belts to drive the prop shaft (or transmission) from the engine. Possibly multi-belt system (several belts for reliability).Pros:- flexibility in alignment and engine/motor location, less vibration - easy to replace primary power unit (diesel, electric motor, etc)- easy to change gear ratio (just use different pulley)- possible to get exact needed RPMs for a prop- reliable- shock absorbent (even if prop hit something and stops, belts will take the shock or spins on a pulley)- power take-off (for welder, pump, etc)- possible to substitute the belt (make it from a rope, leather, etc)Cons:- need to carry extra belts (in case of failure)- find correct belt system which will handle 3-4 times of power unit's HP- needs belt tensioner and frequent adjustment- what else?In this case, the transmission is needed just for reverse. #ygrps-yiv-514985057 #ygrps-yiv-514985057yiv4485730464 #ygrps-yiv-514985057yiv4485730464 -- #ygrps-yiv-514985057yiv4485730464ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-514985057 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It converts iron oxide into iron phosphate which does not continue to rust. You can check out their web site:www.ospho.com  I used it a number of years ago with good success, haven't had the need to use in it in a number of years though since then. BUt it may be just what you are looking for.dj| 32980|32972|2015-09-29 22:38:00|don bourgeois|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft| I while ago I looked into homebuilt aircraft and noticed a lot of them were using a belt drive system. It must have been reliable, one would hope. No use for a reverse in that application though.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 2:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft     Wild Electric motors use both gear reduction and or pulleys to get the correct top speed for the prop to match the motor. The ICE engine needs the gear box for neutral since the engine has such a high idle speed. Nani Diesel has a set up using a belt drive with an electric generator or electric propulsion so it can be done. You will need the correct type of thrust bearings to control the loading but those are easy to find. I don't think using a ICE with a belt drive would have any economic benefit unless you were planning on adding the generator/motor to the system. Electric Boats group has covered a little bit about this as a subject.   Aaron   From: "williswildest@... [origamiboats]" < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 8:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft     I was thinking about using belts to drive the prop shaft (or transmission) from the engine. Possibly multi-belt system (several belts for reliability). Pros: - flexibility in alignment and engine/motor location, less vibration - easy to replace primary power unit (diesel, electric motor, etc) - easy to change gear ratio (just use different pulley) - possible to get exact needed RPMs for a prop - reliable - shock absorbent (even if prop hit something and stops, belts will take the shock or spins on a pulley) - power take-off (for welder, pump, etc) - possible to substitute the belt (make it from a rope, leather, etc) Cons: - need to carry extra belts (in case of failure) - find correct belt system which will handle 3-4 times of power unit's HP - needs belt tensioner and frequent adjustment - what else? In this case, the transmission is needed just for reverse.     | 32981|32907|2015-09-29 23:17:07|wild_explorer|Re: painting stainless life rails|I did paint outside bulwark's welds (316L pipe welded to the hull with 309L electrode) with zinc reach compound. This one (works very good): http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Professional-20-oz-Flat-Gray-Cold-Galvanizing-Compound-6-Pack-7585838/202058773 In final weld, the resulting metal is comparable to 304 SS alloy. The inside welds had started  to rust after couples of years, plus some metal particles from the grinder stuck to bulwark pipe. Later, I plan to clean inside welds with SS knotted cup brush and bulwark pipe with SS fine wire cup brush and paint it with zinc reach compound.The good part about using zinc compound on SS, that it will protect steel (which otherwise will sacrifice itself to protect SS). And if zinc compound wears off in some places from SS, who cares - repaint it when you have a time. You may use bright zinc compound which will look close to SS by appearance.| 32982|32971|2015-09-29 23:49:35|wild_explorer|Re: Blasting off zinc shop primer|Agree. I ran out of abraded and primed FBs.I just finished dealing two 20ft 3/8x1 FBs. It was laying for couples of years under the weather. Removing the rust was not so bad, but removing the mill scale with a grinder took a long time. The areas where the mill scale was completely rusted, took less time. I spent about about 3 hours for EACH FB (with painting). Removing the rust was easier with a grinding wheel, but removing the scale was easier with 36 grit flap disk.After this, paying about $200-300 for abrading and priming 10 FBs a while back, does not look like a bad deal now :-))You need to count grinder's wearing and consumables. Jumbo flap disk cost about $15.I already has 2 dead grinders:- On first (HF) bearing felt apart on first set of brushes. Luckily, it has spare brushes which fit another grinder.- On second, I replaced brushes from first one, but it is gone now and the brushes I bought from a hardware store ($8 a set), did not last a day. I was able to return that crappy brushes and buy another grinder on sale (with spare brushes and grinding disk included) for $20.So... Look for a grinder with big and wide brushes and preferably the one which has spare brushes with it. Industrial type grinder will last longer, but you will need to find brushes for it one day anyway + polish the commutator.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No I would not recommend using un-primed steel if you can get the steel primed before hand or that having to blast the steel anyway negates the advantage of using primed steel to begin with. Sand blasting entirely rusty scaley un-primed steel is painstakingly slow and reqires a blaster that puts out good pressure to actually blast away the scale. Blasing a hull that's been shop-primed you just have to pass over the maybe 20% of the hull that's got a bit of surface rust on it around the welds and scratches, you will roughed up the rest of the just by being in close proximity to whats being blasted. This pays most on the inside where you really can see what you're doing and you just wave the wand around wildly. The rust on primed steel just flies away instantly but rusty un-primed plate you've got to move way more slowly and diligently.| 32983|32972|2015-09-30 00:48:52|wild_explorer|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|Thanks, I need to check if CVT is available on tractors.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How about using a continuously variable ratio transmission, as pioneered in the 1950s and recently reintroduced in autos?  That keeps the engine running in it's efficient, no-smoke sweet spot of rpm whether you are going full speed or no-wake.Rich| 32984|32972|2015-09-30 01:03:50|wild_explorer|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|This is all good points and ideas. The lack of such setup on recreational boats means very little (the same as availability of steel boats from recreational boat builders). Belt drive system widely used in industrial applications. Wide belts with spring tensioners. Tooth belt may not be such a good idea because of the possible tooth failure (it will easily strip the rest)On big ships, there is no transmission at all just because it looses to much power. 0.5-1% of the power loss for each bearing + loses in gears. But big ships is a different story - propulsion system design starts from the prop and the engine usually has < 500 RPMs.Good point about thrust bearing assembly - to take a load from a crank shaft of the engine. Easy to make (2 bearing, short shaft, pulley). It will need to mount it to the engine or transmission.I do not like hydraulic transmissions - too much power loss. Are there VERY SIMPLE mechanical transmissions with the reverse available?The main problem with DIY boat, that we use the engine and the prop which is available (not the best combination). It requires to match engine RPMs to the prop. You are not going to change the transmission for the prop... Will you?For a sailboat, engine suppose to be an auxiliary power. So... Raising the efficiency of propulsion system with a belt setup may outweigh some concerns. We are dealing with engines less than 150Hp (about 110kW). Usually 50-75Hp.I was thinking to use engine to drive Aux power generator as well. Belt system will allow to place an engine higher for easy access and maintenance. The main question remains - reverse.| 32985|32972|2015-09-30 05:07:08|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|There has been quite of bit of work done in the UK on hybrid systems on canal narrowboats where you have a diesel engine and a DC motor/generator coupled together.I think they use belts.The general idea is that you use the electric drive on canals where possible and the diesel for charging the batteries or where you need a bit more power on river or tidal systems.The diesels would be something like a  reconditioned BMC 1.5 (at one time almost a British standard for boats) and the electric motor a Lynch type pancake DC motor rated about 10hp.Briggs and Stratton used to make them for golf carts under the ETEK brand.If you aren't doing too much cruising it is also possible to factor solar panels into the equation.Since there is a speed limit of 4mph on the canals and minimal current 10hp is more than adequate bearing in mind that the original motive power for a 70ft narrowboat carrying 20 tons of cargo was 1hp.It would also be possible to rig up a variable speed drive using belts although I wouldn't like to do it.It was used on some small lathes and DAF cars used it before  Volvo took them over many years ago.I don't know if they were ever exported to the USA but they would now be in the classic car category even if any have survivedcheersAndy Airey| 32986|32972|2015-09-30 09:57:20|Norm Moore|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|Gates makes the belts used by Harley Davidson for their belt driven motorcycles and they have design guides for their belt systems.  That would be a good place to start.   Norm Moore On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 9:48 PM, "williswildest@... 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#ygrps-yiv-495681393yiv6293050454 #ygrps-yiv-495681393yiv6293050454ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-495681393 #ygrps-yiv-495681393yiv6293050454 #ygrps-yiv-495681393yiv6293050454ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-495681393 #ygrps-yiv-495681393yiv6293050454 #ygrps-yiv-495681393yiv6293050454ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-495681393 | 32987|32972|2015-09-30 11:24:53|bargemaster24|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|I live on a 55ft  narrowboat with a 1500 BMC engine not the ideal for a narrow boat but was fitted to a lot of boats and was a cheap engine and spares are easy to get and reasonable cheap. I have looked at boats you give as a example but most owners are disappointed by the reliability of the electrics. I  have seen a nice set up using a forklift diesel  motor with a hydraulic pump  running a hydraulic  drive unit..The engine could be put almost any were the one i looked at was fitted to the side with the ability to be slid out o to allow servicing etc..After being used to a noisy BMC the quietness was amazing. The only draw back was the chance of a bilge full of oil if a pipe fractured.When I came out of the merchant navy  variable pitch props were starting to be used.They developed  this idea for deep sea but not sure if they went smaller Regards to all mikeafloat -----Original Message-----t Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use #ygrps-yiv-1938232785 #ygrps-yiv-1938232785AOLMsgPart_2_62527b4b-73ea-4980-b0c9-8fb29ce3c0fa td{color:black;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody .ygrps-yiv-1938232785ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-row {clear:both;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-row div {float:left;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785ygrp-file {width:30px;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#ygrps-yiv-1938232785 .ygrps-yiv-1938232785aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-1938232785ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;}| 32988|32972|2015-09-30 12:31:56|Darren Bos|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft| In doing the refit for my boat, I'm starting with the prop and working "forwards" from there.  For a sailboat I think the best choice is to fit the biggest feathering prop you can and then work out the rest from there.  It can be a challenge to find gearboxes with a high enough ratio, but in my case the biggest prop I can fit (with the required clearances) will only require a 3:1 gearbox, and there are a few choices in mechanical gearboxes near that ratio.  If budgets constraints prevent a feathering prop, then a two-blader that can be locked vertically behind the keel would be next best choice.  I've talked to a few folks with Kiwi props and they seem reasonably happy with them and they are not much more expensive than a fixed blade prop. There are a lot of boats out there with much larger engines than needed because they have to compensate for the losses through a tiny prop.  If the boat had been built around a larger prop to begin with they wouldn't need to carry around the larger engine and they could have better fuel economy.  If you are putting together a new power system, then the money you save on a smaller engine can be spent on an feathering prop.  If you are considering electric drive in any way, then you need every efficiency you can get and a larger prop is a must. Darren On 15-09-29 10:03 PM, williswildest@... [origamiboats] wrote:   This is all good points and ideas. The lack of such setup on recreational boats means very little (the same as availability of steel boats from recreational boat builders). Belt drive system widely used in industrial applications. Wide belts with spring tensioners. Tooth belt may not be such a good idea because of the possible tooth failure (it will easily strip the rest) On big ships, there is no transmission at all just because it looses to much power. 0.5-1% of the power loss for each bearing + loses in gears. But big ships is a different story - propulsion system design starts from the prop and the engine usually has < 500 RPMs. Good point about thrust bearing assembly - to take a load from a crank shaft of the engine. Easy to make (2 bearing, short shaft, pulley). It will need to mount it to the engine or transmission. I do not like hydraulic transmissions - too much power loss. Are there VERY SIMPLE mechanical transmissions with the reverse available? The main problem with DIY boat, that we use the engine and the prop which is available (not the best combination). It requires to match engine RPMs to the prop. You are not going to change the transmission for the prop... Will you? For a sailboat, engine suppose to be an auxiliary power. So... Raising the efficiency of propulsion system with a belt setup may outweigh some concerns. We are dealing with engines less than 150Hp (about 110kW). Usually 50-75Hp. I was thinking to use engine to drive Aux power generator as well. Belt system will allow to place an engine higher for easy access and maintenance. The main question remains - reverse. | 32989|32972|2015-09-30 14:40:07|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Check this outhttp://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/5.htmlStill a "normal" approach with shaft and reverse coming from a conservative gearbox, while electric generator brings reasonable amount of power from the main engine "in line" via belt and is also used as a -belt driven- propulsion motor when just the noiseless electrical push inside confined calm waters is needed.No complicated feathering propellor prone to failure needed, for it can either go disengaged (loadless rotation of shaft with no rotation of gearbox or other than push-bearing) or be used as a recharge-by-sailng device.Does need quite a lot of battery lead when used in proper hybrid way, though, while some of this battery weight could well be integrated as ballast, as long as the construction allows for storing battery reasonably deep below CWL.Going to warmer latitudes might even allow to collect by solar panels sufficient amounts of power for electric drive - given the vessel is used as a sailboat with auxiliary needs only.Don't know nothing about their prices, while system looks / reads at least well thought through and seems to be just far enough integrated to be slightly userfriendly without becoming a plug'n'play screw-me blackbox.I suppose with some research on the generator - propulsion motor department and a little knowledge concerning the required regulation circuits something like that should be buildable for pretty cheap. Doubling the gen-pulley might even enable usage of an adult watermaker either by dieselpower while charging or by electric gen-motor so sufficient solar power is gained (separate coupling to disengage the waterpress assumed).The already mentioned Harley Davidson idea for the dimensioning of pulley and belt did occur to me also - even more so 'cause there are an awful lot of pretty dauntless tuning nerds when it comes to torque and power of their Milwaukee-Vs.Am 30.09.2015 um 11:06 schrieb ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]:   There has been quite of bit of work done in the UK on hybrid systems on canal narrowboats where you have a diesel engine and a DC motor/generator coupled together.I think they use belts.The general idea is that you use the electric drive on canals where possible and the diesel for charging the batteries or where you need a bit more power on river or tidal systems.The diesels would be something like a  reconditioned BMC 1.5 (at one time almost a British standard for boats) and the electric motor a Lynch type pancake DC motor rated about 10hp.Briggs and Stratton used to make them for golf carts under the ETEK brand.If you aren't doing too much cruising it is also possible to factor solar panels into the equation.Since there is a speed limit of 4mph on the canals and minimal current 10hp is more than adequate bearing in mind that the original motive power for a 70ft narrowboat carrying 20 tons of cargo was 1hp.It would also be possible to rig up a variable speed drive using belts although I wouldn't like to do it.It was used on some small lathes and DAF cars used it before  Volvo took them over many years ago.I don't know if they were ever exported to the USA but they would now be in the classic car category even if any have survivedcheersAndy Airey | 32990|32972|2015-09-30 20:38:00|John Riehl|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|I lurk on the electric boats group, and the consensus on regen/recharge-by-sailing is that it adds very little. As far as battery weight, many e-boaters are going with lithium-ion...lighter weight and better performance, but much more expensive than lead-acid. Sent via the ASUS PadFone X, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original Message --------From:"Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" Sent:Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:39:37 -0400To:origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject:Re: [origamiboats] Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft   Check this outhttp://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/5.htmlStill a "normal" approach with shaft and reverse coming from a conservative gearbox, while electric generator brings reasonable amount of power from the main engine "in line" via belt and is also used as a -belt driven- propulsion motor when just the noiseless electrical push inside confined calm waters is needed.No complicated feathering propellor prone to failure needed, for it can either go disengaged (loadless rotation of shaft with no rotation of gearbox or other than push-bearing) or be used as a recharge-by-sailng device.Does need quite a lot of battery lead when used in proper hybrid way, though, while some of this battery weight could well be integrated as ballast, as long as the construction allows for storing battery reasonably deep below CWL.Going to warmer latitudes might even allow to collect by solar panels sufficient amounts of power for electric drive - given the vessel is used as a sailboat with auxiliary needs only.Don't know nothing about their prices, while system looks / reads at least well thought through and seems to be just far enough integrated to be slightly userfriendly without becoming a plug'n'play screw-me blackbox.I suppose with some research on the generator - propulsion motor department and a little knowledge concerning the required regulation circuits something like that should be buildable for pretty cheap. Doubling the gen-pulley might even enable usage of an adult watermaker either by dieselpower while charging or by electric gen-motor so sufficient solar power is gained (separate coupling to disengage the waterpress assumed).The already mentioned Harley Davidson idea for the dimensioning of pulley and belt did occur to me also - even more so 'cause there are an awful lot of pretty dauntless tuning nerds when it comes to torque and power of their Milwaukee-Vs.Am 30.09.2015 um 11:06 schrieb ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]:   There has been quite of bit of work done in the UK on hybrid systems on canal narrowboats where you have a diesel engine and a DC motor/generator coupled together.I think they use belts.The general idea is that you use the electric drive on canals where possible and the diesel for charging the batteries or where you need a bit more power on river or tidal systems.The diesels would be something like a  reconditioned BMC 1.5 (at one time almost a British standard for boats) and the electric motor a Lynch type pancake DC motor rated about 10hp.Briggs and Stratton used to make them for golf carts under the ETEK brand.If you aren't doing too much cruising it is also possible to factor solar panels into the equation.Since there is a speed limit of 4mph on the canals and minimal current 10hp is more than adequate bearing in mind that the original motive power for a 70ft narrowboat carrying 20 tons of cargo was 1hp.It would also be possible to rig up a variable speed drive using belts although I wouldn't like to do it.It was used on some small lathes and DAF cars used it before  Volvo took them over many years ago.I don't know if they were ever exported to the USA but they would now be in the classic car category even if any have survivedcheersAndy Airey | 32991|32972|2015-09-30 22:11:29|Darren Bos|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft| I spent a bunch of time thinking out my repower last winter.  The conclusion I came to was that electric would not meet my needs.  This was not come to lightly, as our last engine was a chinese diesel rigidly mounted to aluminum hull without adequate sound insulation.  I literally had fantasies about a silent propulsion system.  All electric was only practical if we never planned to motor at more than five knots for four hours.  A serial hybrid was possible, but then you had to run a generator (easier to soundproof) if you wanted to go fast or far.  However, the extra cost in batteries is what really killed the deal.  I figured it was going to be close to 10K in LiPO4 batteries that would make the system practical to use electric much of the time.  Even then, you are going to use the generator to charge the batteries most of the time because you just can't fit enough solar and wind generators on the boat to recharge the batteries in a reasonable amount of time (remember you discharge at kilowatt rates, but solar and wind charge at rates of tens to hundreds of watts, much of which is consumed by your house loads).  I like the parallel hybrid (like Beta's) system in that you could sneek out of marina or anchorage silently in the early morning.  The parallel hybrid also doubles as a nice hi power generator for recharging the batteries from the diesel primary.  However, it is a lot of money to pay for pretty limited benefits. So, if you sail like Lin and Larry Pardey, or only use power to get on and off a mooring buoy, I think an electric system would be pretty neat.  However, for long-range voyaging, I couldn't get the numbers to add up.  In the end I decided to optimize the prop, fit a bit smaller diesel than customary, use CV system like an Aquadrive or Pythondrive (haven't decided on that one yet), soft engine mounts and a lot of soundproofing. If anyone is interested in a 20 hp freshwater marinized chinese diesel and gearbox that is in great condition (only 300hrs), but on the heavy side, let me know (I'm in BC). Darren On 15-09-30 11:39 AM, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Check this out http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/5.html Still a "normal" approach with shaft and reverse coming from a conservative gearbox, while electric generator brings reasonable amount of power from the main engine "in line" via belt and is also used as a -belt driven- propulsion motor when just the noiseless electrical push inside confined calm waters is needed. No complicated feathering propellor prone to failure needed, for it can either go disengaged (loadless rotation of shaft with no rotation of gearbox or other than push-bearing) or be used as a recharge-by-sailng device. Does need quite a lot of battery lead when used in proper hybrid way, though, while some of this battery weight could well be integrated as ballast, as long as the construction allows for storing battery reasonably deep below CWL. Going to warmer latitudes might even allow to collect by solar panels sufficient amounts of power for electric drive - given the vessel is used as a sailboat with auxiliary needs only. Don't know nothing about their prices, while system looks / reads at least well thought through and seems to be just far enough integrated to be slightly userfriendly without becoming a plug'n'play screw-me blackbox. I suppose with some research on the generator - propulsion motor department and a little knowledge concerning the required regulation circuits something like that should be buildable for pretty cheap.  Doubling the gen-pulley might even enable usage of an adult watermaker either by dieselpower while charging or by electric gen-motor so sufficient solar power is gained (separate coupling to disengage the waterpress assumed). The already mentioned Harley Davidson idea for the dimensioning of pulley and belt did occur to me also - even more so 'cause there are an awful lot of pretty dauntless tuning nerds when it comes to torque and power of their Milwaukee-Vs. Am 30.09.2015 um 11:06 schrieb ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]:   There has been quite of bit of work done in the UK on hybrid systems on canal narrowboats where you have a diesel engine and a DC motor/generator coupled together.I think they use belts.The general idea is that you use the electric drive on canals where possible and the diesel for charging the batteries or where you need a bit more power on river or tidal systems.The diesels would be something like a  reconditioned BMC 1.5 (at one time almost a British standard for boats) and the electric motor a Lynch type pancake DC motor rated about 10hp.Briggs and Stratton used to make them for golf carts under the ETEK brand.If you aren't doing too much cruising it is also possible to factor solar panels into the equation.Since there is a speed limit of 4mph on the canals and minimal current 10hp is more than adequate bearing in mind that the original motive power for a 70ft narrowboat carrying 20 tons of cargo was 1hp.It would also be possible to rig up a variable speed drive using belts although I wouldn't like to do it.It was used on some small lathes and DAF cars used it before  Volvo took them over many years ago.I don't know if they were ever exported to the USA but they would now be in the classic car category even if any have survived cheers Andy Airey | 32992|32972|2015-10-01 00:09:53|wild_explorer|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|I found a sailboat in the yard which was originally designed with 40HP engine, mechanical transmission and belt drive system to the prop shaft. The design uses thrust assembly (short shaft on 2 bearings and pulley on the end) connected to the mechanical transmission, two 3VX belts, and another thrust assembly connected to a prop shaft.I asked the owner if he knew why belt drive was used. He said that designer used it to move the engine closer to the stern and to keep the prop shaft horizontal for better prop efficiency and to keep the prop shaft as short as possible. Moving the engine to the aft as far as possible free up the living space near midships and allow easy access to the engine at the same time (you can mount engine higher).That solves my problem too. I had to move the engine (in 3D plans) toward midships to keep the prop shaft horizontal and it was need to have pretty long shaft to be able to fit the engine into the hull. My engine is used in 30kW generators - I can use it to drive up to 30kW electric motor.I was thinking about hydraulic drive a while back, but the efficiency is very low for that setup.Darren, there is a company near by that develops flow batteries for energy storage for off-peak hours. It uses electrolyte in a tanks and small charge/discharge module. The capacity of the system is limited how many tanks you able to fit into your boat :-))) I did e-mail them, but no response. May be I need just to drop-in there and ask all my questions.Agree on biggest prop possible you can fit. I did e-mail Kiwi prop guys a while back. They provided some information, but were not able to provide specs for the calculations. The good part was that you can adjust pitch of the prop to get max efficiency from the prop.The best would be some kind of variable pitch prop for regulating speed and forward/reverse, but it is expensive for some reasons :-( | 32993|32972|2015-10-01 02:21:38|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Elon Musk tries hard to change this, I got to admit, but lithium batteries in this dimension still are for people able to pay cash for a Tesla S-Model without selling nor the workaday Jag neither the Z8-BMW toy.Nice Idea, particularly for carbon fiber ULDBs, but not an option for longterm steel-origami cruising on a shoestring, as far as I'm concerned.I built a 48 V off-grid all-year-round house system for a friend last year - not a cabin but his musician hideaway home including a sound studio - more space for solar panels than on a 36'', though.My point here: used lead-acid gel batteries (coming from forklifts and those golfcourse wheel chairs for example) were cheaper per ton than lead for ballast bought in ingots, not to mention leadballast in shaped castform, and the seller even brought 'em to the far end of nowhere on his own semi with crane, so I hadn't had to rent a lorry with tail lift for this.Still not for free, but I do not see Li Ion anywhere in that range of price-per-cycle for some time.And lead is a reliably dense weight for ballast which is needed to counterweigh our sails anyway - why not let the very same lead work for us in another way, too?Spared space, spared costs, topped by a price per ton under the lead-only ballast, while wheel-weights aren't made from lead anymore in Europe (and the tyre-people do have to proof what they did with the old "baneful" weights over here these days, in terms of responsible waste management: no more lead for free from this well.)Small scale hybrid propulsion together with the needed regulators and electric torque transmission are more and more tried out these days, from the seasoned Priuses to e-SMARTS, one small and one phat-ass big BMW e-car, and even a GM-product called Ampera by Opel/Vauxhal - still rugged and mostly handcrafted in their prototype stages for much too less broad interest by the consumer market, but already a wide range of parts and knowledge readily available.There might be no swiss army knife of propeller propulsion on a small cruising sail boat, but I suppose with given terms of use one could pretty much hit the target. Am 01.10.2015 um 02:37 schrieb John Riehl riehlj2002@... [origamiboats]:   I lurk on the electric boats group, and the consensus on regen/recharge-by-sailing is that it adds very little. As far as battery weight, many e-boaters are going with lithium-ion...lighter weight and better performance, but much more expensive than lead-acid. Sent via the ASUS PadFone X, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original Message --------From:"Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" Sent:Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:39:37 -0400To:origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject:Re: [origamiboats] Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft   Check this outhttp://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/5.htmlStill a "normal" approach with shaft and reverse coming from a conservative gearbox, while electric generator brings reasonable amount of power from the main engine "in line" via belt and is also used as a -belt driven- propulsion motor when just the noiseless electrical push inside confined calm waters is needed.No complicated feathering propellor prone to failure needed, for it can either go disengaged (loadless rotation of shaft with no rotation of gearbox or other than push-bearing) or be used as a recharge-by-sailng device.Does need quite a lot of battery lead when used in proper hybrid way, though, while some of this battery weight could well be integrated as ballast, as long as the construction allows for storing battery reasonably deep below CWL.Going to warmer latitudes might even allow to collect by solar panels sufficient amounts of power for electric drive - given the vessel is used as a sailboat with auxiliary needs only.Don't know nothing about their prices, while system looks / reads at least well thought through and seems to be just far enough integrated to be slightly userfriendly without becoming a plug'n'play screw-me blackbox.I suppose with some research on the generator - propulsion motor department and a little knowledge concerning the required regulation circuits something like that should be buildable for pretty cheap. Doubling the gen-pulley might even enable usage of an adult watermaker either by dieselpower while charging or by electric gen-motor so sufficient solar power is gained (separate coupling to disengage the waterpress assumed).The already mentioned Harley Davidson idea for the dimensioning of pulley and belt did occur to me also - even more so 'cause there are an awful lot of pretty dauntless tuning nerds when it comes to torque and power of their Milwaukee-Vs.Am 30.09.2015 um 11:06 schrieb ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]:   There has been quite of bit of work done in the UK on hybrid systems on canal narrowboats where you have a diesel engine and a DC motor/generator coupled together.I think they use belts.The general idea is that you use the electric drive on canals where possible and the diesel for charging the batteries or where you need a bit more power on river or tidal systems.The diesels would be something like a  reconditioned BMC 1.5 (at one time almost a British standard for boats) and the electric motor a Lynch type pancake DC motor rated about 10hp.Briggs and Stratton used to make them for golf carts under the ETEK brand.If you aren't doing too much cruising it is also possible to factor solar panels into the equation.Since there is a speed limit of 4mph on the canals and minimal current 10hp is more than adequate bearing in mind that the original motive power for a 70ft narrowboat carrying 20 tons of cargo was 1hp.It would also be possible to rig up a variable speed drive using belts although I wouldn't like to do it.It was used on some small lathes and DAF cars used it before  Volvo took them over many years ago.I don't know if they were ever exported to the USA but they would now be in the classic car category even if any have survivedcheersAndy Airey | 32994|32972|2015-10-01 02:38:37|Hannu Venermo|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Fwiw... Using actual usable power as the basis for measuring, lion is about the same price as lead acid. Ie lion is about 4x the cost for a nameplate capacity in kWh, but has 4x the capacity in actual use. It will last 2-3 times as long, as well. Todays lion costs range, at best, around 200-300$ /kWh. This is dropping 20% or so y/y. Within 5 years, lion production costs at factory will be 50-150$, and bulk purchase price about 20-25% higher, somewhere around 80$, most likely. The major drivers are the electric auto/scooter/van/pv storage industries. On 01/10/2015 08:21, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Still not for free, but I do not see Li Ion anywhere in that range of > price-per-cycle for some time. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 32995|32972|2015-10-01 04:44:24|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Yepp, the crazy German Automotives competing hard with Elon's casually car-producing battery-research-lab named Tesla will hopefully bring prices of those Batteries down to cruiser's reality the next years (... now, after their fabulous advance in dieseltechnology showed as a simple advance in tricky software programming). And still reliable battery packs from hybrid cars destroyed in accidents will enable us to gain second hand packages together with all needed surrounding hard- and software as long as those spread wider than today - especially toys like this BMW i-8 founds reasonable hopes in this kind of development, for this thing is an adult rocket You're legally allowed to mount with a ridiculously senseless streetcar licence once invented for Otto- and Diesel-combustion devices. D'accord: putting in a big Li Ion Batterie instead of lead for ballast down in the keel(-s) would bring the hybrid idea to a complete new level. Quote > Using actual usable power as the basis for measuring, lion is about the > same price as lead acid. That goes for buying either new today already? Didn't get this yet, and still by far and for years no match for the pre-used ones I'm afraid. As far as "lasting 4 times longer" is concerned, lead-acid gels depend pretty much on the span of discharge one presses from those, I've learnt last year: put in a vast amount of more capacity and never ever discharge more than down to half, then You will last nearly forever with those thingies even when they come as preloved forklift batteries. (firsthand evidence still does have to be produced by time, though) This approach is definitely strictly confined on a sailboat with given properties to find compromises within, I know, while building a meter longer and getting the batteries AND ballast together for much less instead does have to be outweighed, I subsume, and particularly when going down the road to hybrid, for this meter more in length might enable the particular plus in solar panels by the sheer room of this meter over deck as well. Stays the question wether a beltdriven, nearly horizontal shaft with two engines (diesel and electric) will do the trick ... what I would answer with a clear yes. This shaft could give good use for more than propulsion, as mentioned before. The model might be the good ol' transmission shaft found in pre-industrialised watermills, hammers and saws or used in the steamdriven sweatshops of the 19th century. Am 01.10.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]: > Fwiw... > Using actual usable power as the basis for measuring, lion is about the > same price as lead acid. > > Ie lion is about 4x the cost for a nameplate capacity in kWh, but has 4x > the capacity in actual use. > It will last 2-3 times as long, as well. > > Todays lion costs range, at best, around 200-300$ /kWh. > This is dropping 20% or so y/y. > Within 5 years, lion production costs at factory will be 50-150$, and > bulk purchase price about 20-25% higher, somewhere around 80$, most likely. > > The major drivers are the electric auto/scooter/van/pv storage industries. > > > On 01/10/2015 08:21, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> Still not for free, but I do not see Li Ion anywhere in that range of >> price-per-cycle for some time. > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > | 32996|32972|2015-10-01 05:17:44|deniswig|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Hi all  When things are rough and you need to motor out of trouble in a gale and you cannot go on deck and sort your problems you will curse the fan belts and batteries suitable only for pulling off an EXPERIMENT  or proving a point in a pub conversation  not pulling you out of trouble  on a lee shore in the dark in a storm –this is the environment that all engine / gearbox/ prop calculations should be made – testing the variable belt drive of a tiny daf car which deservedly sold in small numbers as it spent its lifetime screaming its tiny  head off  as the transmission gripped better with a high  revs rather than a straight pull  --pulley to pulley. –as covered in the past batteries on a boat are a chemical chlorine  bomb  and electric drive is common on cruise ships and big yachts  but this is an over engineered  system built to take noise and vibration from certain areas . container ships use conventional  WARTSILLA high efficiency diesels – starting fuel diesel –running fuel crude oil -- low 2 stroke revs big very  big slow very  slow  props and you can remove the heads with a gantry crane while the ship is underway and recondition the fuel system also per cylinder as its 14 cyl and the loss of one cyl while working is factored into the design of the ship. This thinking of a little extra to get you out of trouble rather than a little less to guarantee you will get in trouble is prudent thinking – and leave the fancy engineering in the pub where it belongs . Regards Denis Buggy| 32997|32972|2015-10-01 07:28:48|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Things tend to be more expensive in Europe so Li-ion batteries are still pretty expensive.The coming thing may be sodium-ion which holds out the promise of being cheaper but you are a year or so away from that yet.I think you could probably pick up a fork truck battery on ebay for about £1000 over here which would also have the advantage of being deep cycle - better for power availability.If you're building your boat on a level surface you could always look for an electric forktruck which would help in building the boat and could then be cannibalised for the battery,motors,and hydraulic pumps.You would need a good surface though because all the electric forktrucks I've had experience of were intended for warehouse use.If you are looking for a coarse pitch prop you are getting into steamboat territory.There was a magazine devoted to steamboats published in the USA about 50 years ago which ran for about 3years and was later republished in book form.I'm almost certain that there was infomation about pitching your prop in that.CheersAndy Airey| 32998|32972|2015-10-01 08:22:13|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|When it comes to the electrolytic gas problem: this definitely is to be cautiously mentioned when acid-lead-batteries are used, but it's solveable like the gasoline-mixtures-heavier-than-air-problems in bigger powerboats.And conservative lead batteries aren't capsize-proof, no matter gel or encapsuled.On the other hand You will have some pretty nasty things and substances flying and floating around under deck in case of a capsizing, of which electrolyte will only be one of the nastier, so we should try to avoid this sort of occurrence as possible by taking suitable measures in time:Given the only way You could get out of trouble was with a slowly revving crude-oil-engine and a giant prop to rescue Yourself straight ahead right into the gale leavin' abaft the surf of one rocky leeshore behind with hullspeed, this would have rendered quite some famous circumnavigation and other impressive voyages impossible, for example be it Slocums holiday on Spray (no engine at all), Rollo Gebhard's first turn 'round (no working engine to speak of on his barely 7 meter Condor "Solveigh III"), literally any of Peter Tangvald's voyages (first thing he did everyf***ingtime was ripping out the stinker under ANY new cockpit he achieved), and a lot more famous and not-so-famous crusing would have been prone to definite wreckage whatsoever.But this did not at all happen as rumor has it.Why?An engine on a sailboat is a goodie, not a necessity, this being a knowledge which does unchangedly apply today as it did ten, twenty, thirty and hundred Years ago.Aren't we on a sailboat to use wind for propulsion before thinking about what to do if there is none?So, as long as there IS wind, why bother at all with an engine prone to failure everytimes when things get rough anyway?Getting caught in front of the notorious surfroaring leeshore of countless whiskeydrenched after midnite clubhouse-tales is pretty bad seamanship firsthand anyway and is supposed not to occur to a halfways decent sailor, no matter night or day.Knowing where You are -especially when there is land to take bearings from- while being outside and keeping an eye on the barometer as well as taking the one or other helping sight to the sky frequently should be some of the most rudimentary steps before setting off at all, I suppose.So, slowturning-crudeoil-giant-prop-rescue-thinking does not count as sailor's seamanship, as far as I'm concerned, as well as something like abandoning ships in panic despite those would be still in perfectly sailable condition, abandoning just because a dieselfilter might became clogged from rough seas swirling the shit in a neglected tank, or abandoning for a minor cooling-problem of the engine induced by heel, abandoning only because this prevents abundant use of electrical device from HAM radio to fancy colored screen gps (all of those incidents prooven many times when ships were washed ashore perfectly sound and sailable days or weeks after being abandoned, sometimes even with those "distressed" engines still peacefully idling ...).When there is wind we sail, and when there should happen to be none we (sailors) used to wait for some, at least for a couple hundred years we did wait for wind, and only the last eighty to hundred years we turn the propellor in a calm.Turning it in a calm now might happen in many ways, with belt, without belt, driven by electric engines or old big diesel ones or small and efficient diesel ones or via treadle whatsoever - the prop being still the second toughest way of propulsion for a sailboat.Definitely a completely other story with a mere motorboat, but I wasn't referring to those.Just my two cents, though, nothing personal, Dennis!Keep afloat!Am 01.10.2015 um 11:16 schrieb denis@... [origamiboats]:   Hi all  When things are rough and you need to motor out of trouble in a gale and you cannot go on deck and sort your problems you will curse the fan belts and batteries suitable only for pulling off an EXPERIMENT  or proving a point in a pub conversation  not pulling you out of trouble  on a lee shore in the dark in a storm –this is the environment that all engine / gearbox/ prop calculations should be made – testing the variable belt drive of a tiny daf car which deservedly sold in small numbers as it spent its lifetime screaming its tiny  head off  as the transmission gripped better with a high  revs rather than a straight pull  --pulley to pulley. –as covered in the past batteries on a boat are a chemical chlorine  bomb  and electric drive is common on cruise ships and big yachts  but this is an over engineered  system built to take noise and vibration from certain areas . container ships use conventional  WARTSILLA high efficiency diesels – starting fuel diesel –running fuel crude oil -- low 2 stroke revs big very  big slow very  slow  props and you can remove the heads with a gantry crane while the ship is underway and recondition the fuel system also per cylinder as its 14 cyl and the loss of one cyl while working is factored into the design of the ship. This thinking of a little extra to get you out of trouble rather than a little less to guarantee you will get in trouble is prudent thinking – and leave the fancy engineering in the pub where it belongs . Regards Denis Buggy | 32999|32972|2015-10-01 11:14:00|wild_explorer|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft|Thanks, lot of useful information therehttp://ww2.gates.com/europe/index.cfm?location_id=19831  Especially for industrial applications. Industrial type of belts are cheap and available anywhere. Standard industrial type of pulleys easier to find (or make). Harley belts looks to be pricey and too long.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Gates makes the belts used by Harley Davidson for their belt driven motorcycles and they have design guides for their belt systems.  That would be a good place to start.   Norm Moore | 33000|32972|2015-10-01 12:01:14|Norm Moore|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Regarding people who think belt drives are unreliable... They use belt drives on Robinson helicopters, which fall like a rock if they fail.  Oh, and they're V-belts too. Norm Moore On Thursday, October 1, 2015 5:22 AM, "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   When it comes to the electrolytic gas problem: this definitely is to be cautiously mentioned when acid-lead-batteries are used, but it's solveable like the gasoline-mixtures-heavier-than-air-problems in bigger powerboats.And conservative lead batteries aren't capsize-proof, no matter gel or encapsuled.On the other hand You will have some pretty nasty things and substances flying and floating around under deck in case of a capsizing, of which electrolyte will only be one of the nastier, so we should try to avoid this sort of occurrence as possible by taking suitable measures in time:Given the only way You could get out of trouble was with a slowly revving crude-oil-engine and a giant prop to rescue Yourself straight ahead right into the gale leavin' abaft the surf of one rocky leeshore behind with hullspeed, this would have rendered quite some famous circumnavigation and other impressive voyages impossible, for example be it Slocums holiday on Spray (no engine at all), Rollo Gebhard's first turn 'round (no working engine to speak of on his barely 7 meter Condor "Solveigh III"), literally any of Peter Tangvald's voyages (first thing he did everyf***ingtime was ripping out the stinker under ANY new cockpit he achieved), and a lot more famous and not-so-famous crusing would have been prone to definite wreckage whatsoever.But this did not at all happen as rumor has it.Why?An engine on a sailboat is a goodie, not a necessity, this being a knowledge which does unchangedly apply today as it did ten, twenty, thirty and hundred Years ago.Aren't we on a sailboat to use wind for propulsion before thinking about what to do if there is none?So, as long as there IS wind, why bother at all with an engine prone to failure everytimes when things get rough anyway?Getting caught in front of the notorious surfroaring leeshore of countless whiskeydrenched after midnite clubhouse-tales is pretty bad seamanship firsthand anyway and is supposed not to occur to a halfways decent sailor, no matter night or day.Knowing where You are -especially when there is land to take bearings from- while being outside and keeping an eye on the barometer as well as taking the one or other helping sight to the sky frequently should be some of the most rudimentary steps before setting off at all, I suppose.So, slowturning-crudeoil-giant-prop-rescue-thinking does not count as sailor's seamanship, as far as I'm concerned, as well as something like abandoning ships in panic despite those would be still in perfectly sailable condition, abandoning just because a dieselfilter might became clogged from rough seas swirling the shit in a neglected tank, or abandoning for a minor cooling-problem of the engine induced by heel, abandoning only because this prevents abundant use of electrical device from HAM radio to fancy colored screen gps (all of those incidents prooven many times when ships were washed ashore perfectly sound and sailable days or weeks after being abandoned, sometimes even with those "distressed" engines still peacefully idling ...).When there is wind we sail, and when there should happen to be none we (sailors) used to wait for some, at least for a couple hundred years we did wait for wind, and only the last eighty to hundred years we turn the propellor in a calm.Turning it in a calm now might happen in many ways, with belt, without belt, driven by electric engines or old big diesel ones or small and efficient diesel ones or via treadle whatsoever - the prop being still the second toughest way of propulsion for a sailboat.Definitely a completely other story with a mere motorboat, but I wasn't referring to those.Just my two cents, though, nothing personal, Dennis!Keep afloat!Am 01.10.2015 um 11:16 schrieb denis@... [origamiboats]:   Hi all  When things are rough and you need to motor out of trouble in a gale and you cannot go on deck and sort your problems you will curse the fan belts and batteries suitable only for pulling off an EXPERIMENT  or proving a point in a pub conversation  not pulling you out of trouble  on a lee shore in the dark in a storm –this is the environment that all engine / gearbox/ prop calculations should be made – testing the variable belt drive of a tiny daf car which deservedly sold in small numbers as it spent its lifetime screaming its tiny  head off  as the transmission gripped better with a high  revs rather than a straight pull  --pulley to pulley. –as covered in the past batteries on a boat are a chemical chlorine  bomb  and electric drive is common on cruise ships and big yachts  but this is an over engineered  system built to take noise and vibration from certain areas . container ships use conventional  WARTSILLA high efficiency diesels – starting fuel diesel –running fuel crude oil -- low 2 stroke revs big very  big slow very  slow  props and you can remove the heads with a gantry crane while the ship is underway and recondition the fuel system also per cylinder as its 14 cyl and the loss of one cyl while working is factored into the design of the ship. This thinking of a little extra to get you out of trouble rather than a little less to guarantee you will get in trouble is prudent thinking – and leave the fancy engineering in the pub where it belongs . 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