33001|33001|2015-10-01 12:21:58|aguysailing|MC Tar|I contacted Wasser about MC tar as to whether or not you could apply it over top of Epoxy Cop once the Epoxy Cop had been pressure washed and not sand blasted completely off  Seems they think it OK ... below is there response.. let me know if I have interpreted that correctly...  thanksGary, Need to remove the Copper?first if it is a sluffing antifoulant, that wears off in time intentionally.MC-Tar can be applied over sound, prepared epoxy coatings.|
33002|32972|2015-10-01 13:19:19|Darren Bos|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|I agree.  Li batteries only look expensive at first glance, for a boat  they are the clear winner, although I think LifePO4 is the chemistry  best suited to boats.  Remember you need to double the cost of lead acid  batteries right off the start because you can only use half their  capacity without damaging them.  On top of that LifePO4 batteries have  better than twice the energy density than lead acid.  So,  conservatively, you get a better than 4X the capacity per pound of  battery compared to lead acid.  LifePO4 batteries can also withstand  tremendous charge and discharge rates so it doesn't have to take all day  to charge batteries (the charge doesn't taper like it does with lead  batteries).  Also, for the same capacity, you don't need to carry around  the same amount of weight in batteries.  Batteries are rarely low enough  to be really useful for ballast (or they are at constant risk of being  flooded). Although I don't think I'll have an electric propulsion system  (a parallel 10 kw hybrid mostly to use it as a high-rate charger would  be nice), I'd be happy with LifePO4 batteries and am watching the prices  fall as I do the rest of my refit.  LifePO4 isn't really a new  technology any more, it has been widely used.  With appropriate  monitoring circuitry LifePO4 batteries also deliver a greater number of  discharge cycles than Lead-acid.  All together, I think they are a  cheaper and better solution aboard.  They don't leak if inverted, no  hydrogen gas, as explosion proof as any battery and can output enough  current to start your engine when 90% discharged.  The marine industry is extremely conservative, but even there LifePO4  batteries are starting to show up from major vendors.  Darren   On 15-09-30 11:38 PM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Fwiw... > Using actual usable power as the basis for measuring, lion is about the > same price as lead acid. > > Ie lion is about 4x the cost for a nameplate capacity in kWh, but has 4x > the capacity in actual use. > It will last 2-3 times as long, as well. > > Todays lion costs range, at best, around 200-300$ /kWh. > This is dropping 20% or so y/y. > Within 5 years, lion production costs at factory will be 50-150$, and > bulk purchase price about 20-25% higher, somewhere around 80$, most likely. > > The major drivers are the electric auto/scooter/van/pv storage industries. > > > On 01/10/2015 08:21, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... > [origamiboats] wrote: >> Still not for free, but I do not see Li Ion anywhere in that range of >> price-per-cycle for some time. |
33003|32972|2015-10-01 14:24:08|Matt Malone|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-537293902 .ygrps-yiv-537293902hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-537293902 .ygrps-yiv-537293902hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> LiFePO4 batteries are indeed very nice.  I have been looking at them and thinking about an electric motorcycle project.  I saw a 12V 100Ah battery for $250 out of China.  Like the previous author wrote, that is far better than lead acid.  I am so tempted....  I would not hesitate to make a home-built electric car using them, placing the batteries outside the passenger compartment.   I repeat, outside.  With a boat, there rarely is an outside the passenger compartment.  In a homebuilt, my life, my risk build, I would at least read what the regulations are for battery rooms on boats (sealed room, vented, explosion-proof door is what I recall) and ask myself, if I really want lithium inside my boat without any of those measures?   When things go wrong, lithium batteries erupt like a road flare in a fraction of a second.  Yes, other batteries can experience some very high energy events that can be very damaging and can ignite fires, but with other batteries, the metal itself is not combustible.  With lithium batteries, the cell voltage is too high to use water-based electrolytes so guess what, the electrolyte is usually combustible too.   Try making the acid from a lead-acid battery or the alkali from a Ni-mH or Ni-Fe battery burn.  Given the wrong conditions, the elevated energy state of the battery virtually assures ignition of lithium and electrolyte.   If it gets around that this is a really good home-built boat idea, I can just picture the actual situation: some janky outfit with heavy cables everywhere, not properly lengthed, laying about with extra loops, not restrained every few inches by well-padded clips, laying over metal edges just waiting to cut or pinch through the insulation, not enough fuses, running with the plywood cover off for hours before even that cover is properly fastened down, some wrench falls off a counter on a tack and zzzzzz.....  virtually instant full-cabin flame-thrower fire.   Now, a home built origami is a huge opportunity.  You can build in a sealed transverse bulkhead say in the aft of the boat, accessed from a hatch on the after deck, or in the cockpit.  If you decide not to go with lithium, it would make a great locker for propane tanks.  I would be very careful of lithium batteries.  Yes, well engineered systems made by companies with a lot of experience with lithium batteries have used them for some time, but that does not mean that they are ready for every home built application and every builder.    Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:19:16 -0700> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft> > I agree.  Li batteries only look expensive at first glance, for a boat > they are the clear winner, although I think LifePO4 is the chemistry > best suited to boats.  Remember you need to double the cost of lead acid > batteries right off the start because you can only use half their > capacity without damaging them.  On top of that LifePO4 batteries have > better than twice the energy density than lead acid.  So, > conservatively, you get a better than 4X the capacity per pound of > battery compared to lead acid.  LifePO4 batteries can also withstand > tremendous charge and discharge rates so it doesn't have to take all day > to charge batteries (the charge doesn't taper like it does with lead > batteries).  Also, for the same capacity, you don't need to carry around > the same amount of weight in batteries.  Batteries are rarely low enough > to be really useful for ballast (or they are at constant risk of being > flooded). Although I don't think I'll have an electric propulsion system > (a parallel 10 kw hybrid mostly to use it as a high-rate charger would > be nice), I'd be happy with LifePO4 batteries and am watching the prices > fall as I do the rest of my refit.  LifePO4 isn't really a new > technology any more, it has been widely used.  With appropriate > monitoring circuitry LifePO4 batteries also deliver a greater number of > discharge cycles than Lead-acid.  All together, I think they are a > cheaper and better solution aboard.  They don't leak if inverted, no > hydrogen gas, as explosion proof as any battery and can output enough > current to start your engine when 90% discharged.> > The marine industry is extremely conservative, but even there LifePO4 > batteries are starting to show up from major vendors.> > Darren> > On 15-09-30 11:38 PM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:> > Fwiw...> > Using actual usable power as the basis for measuring, lion is about the> > same price as lead acid.> >> > Ie lion is about 4x the cost for a nameplate capacity in kWh, but has 4x> > the capacity in actual use.> > It will last 2-3 times as long, as well.> >> > Todays lion costs range, at best, around 200-300$ /kWh.> > This is dropping 20% or so y/y.> > Within 5 years, lion production costs at factory will be 50-150$, and> > bulk purchase price about 20-25% higher, somewhere around 80$, most likely.> >> > The major drivers are the electric auto/scooter/van/pv storage industries.> >> >> > On 01/10/2015 08:21, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...> > [origamiboats] wrote:> >> Still not for free, but I do not see Li Ion anywhere in that range of> >> price-per-cycle for some time.> > > > ------------------------------------> > ------------------------------------> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> ------------------------------------> > Yahoo Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/> > <*> Your email settings:>     Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join>     (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:>     origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:>     origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:>     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>   		 	   		   |
33004|32972|2015-10-01 23:04:00|Darren Bos|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|                    Matt,           I think any battery has risk associated with it.  Lead batteries     certainly explode and I've seen the consequences.  So, I'm not     convinced LiFePO4 batteries increase the risk by much (note, I'm     talking about LiFePO4, not other lithium battery technologies which     are more volatile).  One of the benefits of LiFePO4 batteries is     they are far more stable than other lithium technologies.  This wiki     entry gives a nice general description.       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety     For further evidence check out this video of a large LiFePO4 cell     that has been shorted and left to fully discharge.  It would still     be unpleasant to have happen aboard, but hardly a flame thrower.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk          All boat-sized battery banks are a fire hazard if they short.      Compared to flooded lead-acid cells which release hydrogen gas and     acid vapor, I think I'd rather have LiFePO4 cells aboard.          I do agree that battery installation requires some thought.  Lack of     fuses at the battery in just about any installation is a bad idea     (yes I know it is very common not to have them).  LiFePO4 batteries     should also have some battery management circuitry at the battery to     protect the batteries from damage, but that also can increase safety     compared to a typical lead-acid installation.            Darren          On 15-10-01 11:24 AM, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                      LiFePO4 batteries are indeed very nice.  I               have been looking at them and thinking about an electric               motorcycle project.  I saw a 12V 100Ah battery for $250               out of China.  Like the previous author wrote, that is far               better than lead acid.  I am so tempted....  I would not               hesitate to make a home-built electric car using them,               placing the batteries outside the passenger compartment.                                               I repeat, outside.                                With a boat, there rarely is an outside the passenger               compartment.  In a homebuilt, my life, my risk build, I               would at least read what the regulations are for battery               rooms on boats (sealed room, vented, explosion-proof door               is what I recall) and ask myself, if I really want lithium               inside my boat without any of those measures?   When               things go wrong, lithium batteries erupt like a road flare               in a fraction of a second.  Yes, other batteries can               experience some very high energy events that can be very               damaging and can ignite fires, but with other batteries,               the metal itself is not combustible.  With lithium               batteries, the cell voltage is too high to use water-based               electrolytes so guess what, the electrolyte is usually               combustible too.   Try making the acid from a lead-acid               battery or the alkali from a Ni-mH or Ni-Fe battery burn.                Given the wrong conditions, the elevated energy state of               the battery virtually assures ignition of lithium and               electrolyte.                                 If it gets around that this is a really good home-built               boat idea, I can just picture the actual situation: some               janky outfit with heavy cables everywhere, not properly               lengthed, laying about with extra loops, not restrained               every few inches by well-padded clips, laying over metal               edges just waiting to cut or pinch through the insulation,               not enough fuses, running with the plywood cover off for               hours before even that cover is properly fastened down,               some wrench falls off a counter on a tack and zzzzzz.....                virtually instant full-cabin flame-thrower fire.                                 Now, a home built origami is a huge opportunity.  You can               build in a sealed transverse bulkhead say in the aft of               the boat, accessed from a hatch on the after deck, or in               the cockpit.  If you decide not to go with lithium, it               would make a great locker for propane tanks.                                I would be very careful of lithium batteries.  Yes, well               engineered systems made by companies with a lot of               experience with lithium batteries have used them for some               time, but that does not mean that they are ready for every               home built application and every builder.                                  Matt                                             > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:19:16 -0700                 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Belt drive for                 transmission or prop shaft aircraft                 >                  > I agree. Li batteries only look expensive at first                 glance, for a boat                  > they are the clear winner, although I think LifePO4                 is the chemistry                  > best suited to boats. Remember you need to double                 the cost of lead acid                  > batteries right off the start because you can only                 use half their                  > capacity without damaging them. On top of that                 LifePO4 batteries have                  > better than twice the energy density than lead                 acid. So,                  > conservatively, you get a better than 4X the                 capacity per pound of                  > battery compared to lead acid. LifePO4 batteries                 can also withstand                  > tremendous charge and discharge rates so it doesn't                 have to take all day                  > to charge batteries (the charge doesn't taper like                 it does with lead                  > batteries). Also, for the same capacity, you don't                 need to carry around                  > the same amount of weight in batteries. Batteries                 are rarely low enough                  > to be really useful for ballast (or they are at                 constant risk of being                  > flooded). Although I don't think I'll have an                 electric propulsion system                  > (a parallel 10 kw hybrid mostly to use it as a                 high-rate charger would                  > be nice), I'd be happy with LifePO4 batteries and                 am watching the prices                  > fall as I do the rest of my refit. LifePO4 isn't                 really a new                  > technology any more, it has been widely used. With                 appropriate                  > monitoring circuitry LifePO4 batteries also deliver                 a greater number of                  > discharge cycles than Lead-acid. All together, I                 think they are a                  > cheaper and better solution aboard. They don't leak                 if inverted, no                  > hydrogen gas, as explosion proof as any battery and                 can output enough                  > current to start your engine when 90% discharged.                 >                  > The marine industry is extremely conservative, but                 even there LifePO4                  > batteries are starting to show up from major                 vendors.                 >                  > Darren                 >                  > On 15-09-30 11:38 PM, Hannu Venermo                 gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:                 > > Fwiw...                 > > Using actual usable power as the basis for                 measuring, lion is about the                 > > same price as lead acid.                 > >                 > > Ie lion is about 4x the cost for a nameplate                 capacity in kWh, but has 4x                 > > the capacity in actual use.                 > > It will last 2-3 times as long, as well.                 > >                 > > Todays lion costs range, at best, around                 200-300$ /kWh.                 > > This is dropping 20% or so y/y.                 > > Within 5 years, lion production costs at                 factory will be 50-150$, and                 > > bulk purchase price about 20-25% higher,                 somewhere around 80$, most likely.                 > >                 > > The major drivers are the electric                 auto/scooter/van/pv storage industries.                 > >                 > >                 > > On 01/10/2015 08:21, Giuseppe Bergman                 giuseppe.bergman@...                 > > [origamiboats] wrote:                 > >> Still not for free, but I do not see Li                 Ion anywhere in that range of                 > >> price-per-cycle for some time.                 >                  >                  >                  > ------------------------------------                 >                  > ------------------------------------                 >                  > To Post a message, send it to:                 origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:                 origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com                 > ------------------------------------                 >                  > Yahoo Groups Links                 >                  > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:                 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/                 >                  > <*> Your email settings:                 > Individual Email | Traditional                 >                  > <*> To change settings online go to:                 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join                 > (Yahoo! ID required)                 >                  > <*> To change settings via email:                 > origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com                  > origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com                 >                  > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an                 email to:                 > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com                 >                  > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:                 > https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/                 >                                                                                |
33005|33005|2015-10-01 23:07:48|aguysailing|Sandblasting video|Saw this on youtube.   I was surprised on how quickly this process goes.Sandblasting Boats (Tugboats) Vancouver BC                             Sandblasting Boats (Tugboats) Vancouver BC   www.AllweldSandblasting.com 604-299-0932 1-888-599-0932 Sandblasting boats in Vancouver BC Canada              View on www.youtube.com              Preview by Yahoo              |
33006|33006|2015-10-02 01:55:55|Alex Bar|Outside steel reinforcements|Have a look at the outside steel reinforcement on the hull tug in the video. I've never seen something like that. Are they welded continuosly?I wonder how much weldind and how much welding distortion you have... Unbelievable!AlexI2015-10-02 5:07 GMT+02:00 aguysailing@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                Saw this on youtube.   I was surprised on how quickly this process goes.Sandblasting Boats (Tugboats) Vancouver BC                             Sandblasting Boats (Tugboats) Vancouver BC   www.AllweldSandblasting.com 604-299-0932 1-888-599-0932 Sandblasting boats in Vancouver BC Canada              View on www.youtube.com              Preview by Yahoo                                                      |
33007|33001|2015-10-02 08:14:34|Robert Jones|Re: MC Tar|sounds to me like they are saying to get the ablative or "sloughing" coat off but that is is OK to put over stabilized epoxy. To me, the stabilized primer is under the copper ablative. I would probably light sand, apply tar, and check next year for places that have issues. If you want not to pull your boat for 5 or more years, i would get all of the ablative off        <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "aguysailing@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 1, 2015 11:21 AM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [origamiboats] MC Tar                                       I contacted Wasser about MC tar as to whether or not you could apply it over top of Epoxy Cop once the Epoxy Cop had been pressure washed and not sand blasted completely off  Seems they think it OK ... below is there response.. let me know if I have interpreted that correctly...  thanksGary, Need to remove the Copper?first if it is a sluffing antifoulant, that wears off in time intentionally.MC-Tar can be applied over sound, prepared epoxy coatings.                           #ygrps-yiv-389827060 #ygrps-yiv-389827060yiv7741084798 #ygrps-yiv-389827060yiv7741084798 --   #ygrps-yiv-389827060yiv7741084798ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid 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33008|32971|2015-10-02 08:24:42|Robert Jones|Re: Blasting off zinc shop primer|I totally agree with Haiden        <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "haidan@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 29, 2015 12:35 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [origamiboats] Re: Blasting off zinc shop primer                                       No I would not recommend using un-primed steel if you can get the steel primed before hand or that having to blast the steel anyway negates the advantage of using primed steel to begin with. Sand blasting entirely rusty scaley un-primed steel is painstakingly slow and reqires a blaster that puts out good pressure to actually blast away the scale. Blasing a hull that's been shop-primed you just have to pass over the maybe 20% of the hull that's got a bit of surface rust on it around the welds and scratches, you will roughed up the rest of the just by being in close proximity to whats being blasted. This pays most on the inside where you really can see what you're doing and you just wave the wand around wildly. 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33009|32959|2015-10-02 09:20:39|jpronk1|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Does the sand need to be as high quality to blast over a braided steel? The texture is already on the steel, you are just knocking off the rust?JamesSent from my iPhone On Sep 28, 2015, at 2:00 PM, haidan@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                              Oh I see, good thing that was abraded. the acid just turns the steel rusty again pretty much right away, it'll completely dissolve any rust thats on it but it also seems to just speed up new rusting. Blasting the abraded stuff goes pretty quick, you've only had that plate for a few years so the rust shouldn't be too bad and it takes just a light pass over with the blaster to make it dissapear, the rest of the shop primed stuff benefits from a pass over with the blaster too just to rough it up. I just did the nearly the whole outside of a bs36 with a 14cfm compressor and a 10gallon blasting pot (1/4" nozzle). The compressor couldn't really keep up with any decent pressure except for the first 30 seconds or so but even at about 60lbs which it would stay at it cleaned up the paint quite well and knocked off all the zinc oxide leaving a nice surface for the paint. I did my boat with a big blaster pot (3/8" nozzle) and a 185cfm tow behind compressor. it's pretty dirty but you're done the whole boat in a day.                          |
33010|33001|2015-10-02 11:25:52|wild_explorer|Re: MC Tar|By my understanding, they tell you to remove all antifoulant first.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :Gary, Need to remove the Copper?first if it is a sluffing antifoulant, that wears off in time intentionally.MC-Tar can be applied over sound, prepared epoxy coatings.|
33011|32971|2015-10-02 11:46:45|wild_explorer|Re: Blasting off zinc shop primer|The question was if it is better to blast off all old (several years old) zinc shop primer at the END of the project before final painting and using pre-priming sealant (instead of zinc primer) to protect the steel after blasting and before putting intermediate and top coats.   <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "haidan@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  No I would not recommend using un-primed steel if you can get the steel primed before hand or that having to blast the steel anyway negates the advantage of using primed steel to begin with. |
33012|32971|2015-10-03 14:06:17|theboilerflue|Re: Blasting off zinc shop primer|I would only be inclined to blast the rust off, any primer that is well stuck to the steel needs really no blasting any that does should be obvious when you get it close to a sandblaster. Though a light touch from the baster doesn't hurt and tends to happen anyway as you're moving the nozzle around to get at the rusty bits. It just roughs it up a bit knocking off the thin layer of zinc oxide thats built up over time. If you're gonna end up with a lot of bare steel a good coat of zinc paint, over the whole thing, then go on with what ever you're putting on that. If it's above the water line it would be an especially good idea. I don't know about any other primers, zinc works pretty damn well so I'd stick with that.|
33013|32959|2015-10-03 19:37:26|brentswain38|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Beach sand works well. Friends ran out of blasting sand so switched to beach a sand, and it worked better.Too dusty for inside blasting tho.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jpronk1@...> wrote :Does the sand need to be as high quality to blast over a braided steel? The texture is already on the steel, you are just knocking off the rust?JamesSent from my iPhone  On Sep 28, 2015, at 2:00 PM, haidan@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Oh I see, good thing that was abraded. the acid just turns the steel rusty again pretty much right away, it'll completely dissolve any rust thats on it but it also seems to just speed up new rusting. Blasting the abraded stuff goes pretty quick, you've only had that plate for a few years so the rust shouldn't be too bad and it takes just a light pass over with the blaster to make it dissapear, the rest of the shop primed stuff benefits from a pass over with the blaster too just to rough it up. I just did the nearly the whole outside of a bs36 with a 14cfm compressor and a 10gallon blasting pot (1/4" nozzle). The compressor couldn't really keep up with any decent pressure except for the first 30 seconds or so but even at about 60lbs which it would stay at it cleaned up the paint quite well and knocked off all the zinc oxide leaving a nice surface for the paint. I did my boat with a big blaster pot (3/8" nozzle) and a 185cfm tow behind compressor. it's pretty dirty but you're done the whole boat in a day.|
33014|32959|2015-10-03 20:45:38|opuspaul|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Some beach sand is coarse and granular, some of it is fine and dusty so you may get different results when blasting.  I used beach sand when I was in Fiji.  It was all I could get at the time and it worked well to remove the old bottom paint but I would avoid it if possible.    The salt from the sand gets driven in to the metal and helps promote corrosion.  Washing the sand takes a lot of work and time so it is seldom done.  It was necessary to filter the sand with a screen as it went in to the hopper for larger particles or the nozzle of the blaster would often get clogged.For small jobs, I have used coarse sand packaged from home building stores for concreting and landscaping.  It may need to be spread out in the sun and dried thoroughly if you want it to flow nicely in the blaster.Be careful... the dust from silica sand (unlike garnet and other blast media) can give you silicosis.  http://www.dalefield.com/nzfmm/tips/sandblasting.html  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Beach sand works well. Friends ran out of blasting sand so switched to beach a sand, and it worked better.Too dusty for inside blasting tho.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jpronk1@...> wrote :Does the sand need to be as high quality to blast over a braided steel? The texture is already on the steel, you are just knocking off the rust?JamesSent from my iPhone  On Sep 28, 2015, at 2:00 PM, haidan@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Oh I see, good thing that was abraded. the acid just turns the steel rusty again pretty much right away, it'll completely dissolve any rust thats on it but it also seems to just speed up new rusting. Blasting the abraded stuff goes pretty quick, you've only had that plate for a few years so the rust shouldn't be too bad and it takes just a light pass over with the blaster to make it dissapear, the rest of the shop primed stuff benefits from a pass over with the blaster too just to rough it up. I just did the nearly the whole outside of a bs36 with a 14cfm compressor and a 10gallon blasting pot (1/4" nozzle). The compressor couldn't really keep up with any decent pressure except for the first 30 seconds or so but even at about 60lbs which it would stay at it cleaned up the paint quite well and knocked off all the zinc oxide leaving a nice surface for the paint. I did my boat with a big blaster pot (3/8" nozzle) and a 185cfm tow behind compressor. it's pretty dirty but you're done the whole boat in a day. |
33015|33015|2015-10-03 23:37:49|wild_explorer|Cabin sides installation|It is a time to put the cabin sides again. I screw up doing its installation about 2 years ago (I had to take it down) and now it is time to do it one more time. Problem was:- 11 Ga deck is too light for 40 footer (needs 10 Ga or 3/16). I had to reinforce 11Ga deck with extra 3/8x1 FB next to the edge of the deck (about 2" from inner edge) where the cabin sides will be. Now  I have 3 FBs instead of 2 (which increases the weight of the deck). So, the weight saving 11Ga vs 10Ga is minimal. It is OK now with supports to the hull every 4 feet.- 2 years ago I tried to pull the deck to match sides' profile with pipe clamps. Wrong! It twisted the sides (different angle to the deck in different spots of the cabin side plate). This time:- I made vertical and horizontal references with stops to rest the cabin side plate on. It gives correct angle simply putting the plate on a deck and against vertical reference.- I decided to move cabin side slightly aft, but sides were pre-cut with CNC and it created some gaps (up to 1/8") in some spots from the cabin side edge to the deck. I was truing to fill up  (tack weld) those gaps with 6011 electrode, but shrinkage was pulling and twisting cabin side plate. The easiest way is to use 1/8x1 FB on the edge. Perfect fit - no more problems.So, if you have some gaps between cabin side plate and deck/cabin_top (due to not perfect fit, cut, etc) just use FB on the edge to make perfect fit. Another benefit, if you use FB on both sides of the cabin's plate, you will have 1/4" edge of the cabin. You can tack weld inside FB and fully weld outside one. Yes, it is more welding, but done pretty fast with 7018 or 7024 electrode. |
33016|33015|2015-10-04 19:03:43|brentswain38|Re: Cabin sides installation|I find that if the cabin side bottom is the right  curve, the cabin side ,a beam on edge , does the job of the flat bar. I have done this with pipe clamps on over 3 dozen boats ,and Evan has with a similar number , with no problem.The tumble home of the cabin side is never  right to begin with, so I tack braces from the top of the cabin side to the deck every three  feet or so to hold it at the proper  angle, until I get the cabin top on.  As they threaten one with tripping over them I have thought about extending the deck beams another foot inwards then putting these   braces inside temporarily, until the cabin top is on..Where the cabin side is straight ,a temporary longitudinal flat bar, a couple of inches down from the top, holds it straight until the cabin top is on. Get  it good and straight before you put the cabin top on . It is not so easy to move afterwards. This way I have had  no problem with 11 gauge on a 40 footer, or even much larger boats.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <williswildest@...> wrote :It is a time to put the cabin sides again. I screw up doing its installation about 2 years ago (I had to take it down) and now it is time to do it one more time. Problem was:- 11 Ga deck is too light for 40 footer (needs 10 Ga or 3/16). I had to reinforce 11Ga deck with extra 3/8x1 FB next to the edge of the deck (about 2" from inner edge) where the cabin sides will be. Now  I have 3 FBs instead of 2 (which increases the weight of the deck). So, the weight saving 11Ga vs 10Ga is minimal. It is OK now with supports to the hull every 4 feet.- 2 years ago I tried to pull the deck to match sides' profile with pipe clamps. Wrong! It twisted the sides (different angle to the deck in different spots of the cabin side plate). This time:- I made vertical and horizontal references with stops to rest the cabin side plate on. It gives correct angle simply putting the plate on a deck and against vertical reference.- I decided to move cabin side slightly aft, but sides were pre-cut with CNC and it created some gaps (up to 1/8") in some spots from the cabin side edge to the deck. I was truing to fill up  (tack weld) those gaps with 6011 electrode, but shrinkage was pulling and twisting cabin side plate. The easiest way is to use 1/8x1 FB on the edge. Perfect fit - no more problems.So, if you have some gaps between cabin side plate and deck/cabin_top (due to not perfect fit, cut, etc) just use FB on the edge to make perfect fit. Another benefit, if you use FB on both sides of the cabin's plate, you will have 1/4" edge of the cabin. You can tack weld inside FB and fully weld outside one. Yes, it is more welding, but done pretty fast with 7018 or 7024 electrode. |
33017|32959|2015-10-04 19:08:32|brentswain38|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|Beach sand from high above the high tide line has no salt in it.Fiji sand is probably fragile coral sand ,something you wont find in higher latitudes.Screening is a good idea, but on my mini blaster,  I'm thinking of putting the screen on the pick up pipe instead.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :Some beach sand is coarse and granular, some of it is fine and dusty so you may get different results when blasting.  I used beach sand when I was in Fiji.  It was all I could get at the time and it worked well to remove the old bottom paint but I would avoid it if possible.    The salt from the sand gets driven in to the metal and helps promote corrosion.  Washing the sand takes a lot of work and time so it is seldom done.  It was necessary to filter the sand with a screen as it went in to the hopper for larger particles or the nozzle of the blaster would often get clogged.For small jobs, I have used coarse sand packaged from home building stores for concreting and landscaping.  It may need to be spread out in the sun and dried thoroughly if you want it to flow nicely in the blaster.Be careful... the dust from silica sand (unlike garnet and other blast media) can give you silicosis.  http://www.dalefield.com/nzfmm/tips/sandblasting.html  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Beach sand works well. Friends ran out of blasting sand so switched to beach a sand, and it worked better.Too dusty for inside blasting tho.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jpronk1@...> wrote :Does the sand need to be as high quality to blast over a braided steel? The texture is already on the steel, you are just knocking off the rust?JamesSent from my iPhone  On Sep 28, 2015, at 2:00 PM, haidan@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Oh I see, good thing that was abraded. the acid just turns the steel rusty again pretty much right away, it'll completely dissolve any rust thats on it but it also seems to just speed up new rusting. Blasting the abraded stuff goes pretty quick, you've only had that plate for a few years so the rust shouldn't be too bad and it takes just a light pass over with the blaster to make it dissapear, the rest of the shop primed stuff benefits from a pass over with the blaster too just to rough it up. I just did the nearly the whole outside of a bs36 with a 14cfm compressor and a 10gallon blasting pot (1/4" nozzle). The compressor couldn't really keep up with any decent pressure except for the first 30 seconds or so but even at about 60lbs which it would stay at it cleaned up the paint quite well and knocked off all the zinc oxide leaving a nice surface for the paint. I did my boat with a big blaster pot (3/8" nozzle) and a 185cfm tow behind compressor. it's pretty dirty but you're done the whole boat in a day. |
33018|32972|2015-10-04 19:11:21|brentswain38|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|My book covers pitching and balancing a prop.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <andyairey@...> wrote :Things tend to be more expensive in Europe so Li-ion batteries are still pretty expensive.The coming thing may be sodium-ion which holds out the promise of being cheaper but you are a year or so away from that yet.I think you could probably pick up a fork truck battery on ebay for about £1000 over here which would also have the advantage of being deep cycle - better for power availability.If you're building your boat on a level surface you could always look for an electric forktruck which would help in building the boat and could then be cannibalised for the battery,motors,and hydraulic pumps.You would need a good surface though because all the electric forktrucks I've had experience of were intended for warehouse use.If you are looking for a coarse pitch prop you are getting into steamboat territory.There was a magazine devoted to steamboats published in the USA about 50 years ago which ran for about 3years and was later republished in book form.I'm almost certain that there was infomation about pitching your prop in that.CheersAndy Airey|
33019|32972|2015-10-04 19:16:26|brentswain38|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|Engines dance separately from the prop shaft. The only way to stop this from breaking a belt, is to put the prop shaft  thrust bearing on the engine, so they dance together, or super solidly mount the engine.Don't think I would want to cruise with  the risk of an experimental belt drive Tried it once. Its a long, steep learning curve, on a boat. Not worth the trouble.|
33020|32972|2015-10-04 19:26:34|brentswain38|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|There was once a guy who anchored behind me, who had electric drive in a sailboat. I asked him what his range was. He said, on a flat calm day, she would go 20 miles on a single charge, more if there was wind to help out  a bit, and run the wind generator. That's not nearly enough to get you out of Juan de Fuca Strait, in a single day, with no anchorages along the way. A group of high school girls here were planing on going electric in a fibreglass boat they were thinking of cruising Central America in. I mentioned the windless coast of southern Mexico, with nothing but open road steads, with few anchorages. You could motor 20 miles, then have to spend a day or two in an open, rolly anchorage,  to get your batteries up, to go another 20 miles, then do it all again , for thousands of miles, before next hurricane season..Not a fun way to cruise.Electric could work in the Carribean or Vanuatu ,where daily 25 knot winds are to be expected 300 days a year, but not many other places.|
33021|32959|2015-10-04 19:56:16|opuspaul|Re: Hydrocloric (Muriatic) acid for removing the rust|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote : >>>>Beach sand from high above the high tide line has no salt in it. You might get away with it in a place that gets a lot of rain with little wind driven spray but that is not really true.   It is hard to believe but it has been shown with aircraft jet engines that they can be exposed to salt as high as one mile above sea level.  I can't remember the exact instructions but when I worked on helicopters the engine manufacturer required that we do a daily jet engine compressor wash if we operated within 1000 feet of the ocean.A more practical example is that I just built a deck on my house and the new standard in NZ is that you must use SS hardware if it is located within 500 meters of the ocean.Paul|
33022|32972|2015-10-04 20:12:58|opuspaul|Re: Belt drive for transmission or prop shaft aircraft|I totally agree.   Solar/electric drive is not for real cruising or voyaging boats.   It is impractical and very expensive for what you get.   I  motored for 5 days straight when I went to Hawaii.  It was very unusual weather, with absolutely no wind.  After arrival, there was still no wind for many, many days.  I would have flipped and flopped for weeks if I had relied on solar power.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :There was once a guy who anchored behind me, who had electric drive in a sailboat. I asked him what his range was. He said, on a flat calm day, she would go 20 miles on a single charge, more if there was wind to help out  a bit, and run the wind generator. That's not nearly enough to get you out of Juan de Fuca Strait, in a single day, with no anchorages along the way. A group of high school girls here were planing on going electric in a fibreglass boat they were thinking of cruising Central America in. I mentioned the windless coast of southern Mexico, with nothing but open road steads, with few anchorages. You could motor 20 miles, then have to spend a day or two in an open, rolly anchorage,  to get your batteries up, to go another 20 miles, then do it all again , for thousands of miles, before next hurricane season..Not a fun way to cruise.Electric could work in the Carribean or Vanuatu ,where daily 25 knot winds are to be expected 300 days a year, but not many other places.|
33023|33015|2015-10-04 23:33:23|wild_explorer|Re: Cabin sides installation|Brent, my cabin side is curved all the way (about 16 ft) following bulwark pipe curve - no straight runs on my cabin's (and pilot house) sides. That why I need correct angle (tumble home) for cabin/PH sides.  I do have pretty strong temporary cross-members welded to the extended inward ends of deck's beams. I put vertical references where top cabin side's edge should be and welded short peaces of the angle to the deck and clamped scrap FBs to keep bottom of cabin side sliding side-way during installation. I used pipe clamps  just to keep the side plate from falling toward bulwark.I will check the cabin top edge with pipes/angles  for horizontal alignment and will run FB/angle on CL for cabin top installation (I have to weld several sheets on the cabin to make cabin top).I agree on your "IF" remark. Cabin side will act as a FB IF everything fits perfectly. It did not work for me. I have much easier time to do it more traditional way (using geometry) and use 1/8x1 FB to make perfect fit. No sweat at all this way.|
33221|33221|2016-01-31 00:57:25|Stephen Wandling|Re: Rigging Wire/ Coating for 31 footer|                              -------- Original Message --------                                Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Rigging Wire/ Coating for 31 footer                             Date:            02 Jan 2016 15:42:34 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       I epoxy tared my rigging wire, then  wrapped it  with hockey tape, then epoxy tar over it. Figure is good for as long as I am. Turnbuckles are next.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :   Correction....I am now told that the pipelines wrapped with Denso tape and dug up later were still good after more than 75 years.     http://www.densona.com/Denso-Petrolatum-Tapes.aspx http://www.densona.com/Denso-Petrolatum-Tapes.aspx  I just buy the cheap version that the plumbers and farmers normally use.  It is in all the hardware stores in NZ.  It is very reasonable and probably available at any plumbing supply.  Since it is greasy and sticky, if I wrap it around a pipe or hydraulic fitting, it will mold in place, seal it off and protect from corrosion.   It is possible to unwrap it later and re-use it so one roll will go a long way.  Amazon.com: denso tape: Office Products http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Doffice-products&field-keywords=denso+tape     http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Doffice-products&field-keywords=denso+tape    Amazon.com: denso tape: Office Products http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Doffice-products&field-keywords=denso+tape Online shopping from a great selection at Office Products Store.      View on www.amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Doffice-products&field-keywords=denso+tape  Preview by Yahoo                  |
33222|33222|2016-01-31 00:58:23|Stephen Wandling|Domina del Mar|                              -------- Original Message --------                                Subject:            [origamiboats] Domina del Mar                             Date:            02 Jan 2016 15:53:29 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                      http://www.willsmarineboatbrokers.com/listings.html http://www.willsmarineboatbrokers.com/listings.html     This 60 footer is for sale, for any offers, in Comox, if anyone wants a boat that big.She just had a very expensive paint job, bow thruster, and all systems, nothing but the best , put in her recently at Ocean Pacific boat yard in Campbell River BC. The round bilged hull is indistinguishable from a new fibreglass boat, fresh out of the mold. She was designed by McClear and Harriss, and a sistership was featured in Beisers book 'The Proper Yacht" Angantyre)   Chuck Burchill, the guy who built her, was a master mechanic, perfectionist  and a genius. While she doesn't have an interior yet, that could be done easily, Not having an interior leaves the inside freely accessible for a survey.  She is fully rigged with a very expensive new  rig , and the engine is new. She was for sale for around $90K , a fraction the cost of building  her to that stage,but any offers would be accepted now.      |
33223|33223|2016-01-31 00:59:04|Stephen Wandling|Spade Anchor DYS|                              -------- Original Message --------                                Subject:            [origamiboats] Spade Anchor DYS                             Date:            03 Jan 2016 07:29:25 -0800                             From:            gerd.finger@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    I want to supply my 30' GRP Colin Archer with a spade anchor. I know, "GRP Colin Archer" in ths forum is a bit of a provocation, but this is the true metal boat building expert forum and the place to ask for ideas on building an anchor yourself.  Are there any plans or evene cutting files for spade like anchors around?  I'm looking for a 20kg size, maybe with detachable shaft.     Cheers,  Gerd     |
33224|33223|2016-01-31 01:00:57|Stephen Wandling|Re: Spade Anchor DYS|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: Spade Anchor DYS                             Date:            03 Jan 2016 14:03:35 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Doug from SV Seeker has an excellent site.  He can do just about anything.   http://www.svseeker.com/wp/sv-seeker-2/sailboat/anchors/?v=8e3eb2c69a18 http://www.svseeker.com/wp/sv-seeker-2/sailboat/anchors/?v=8e3eb2c69a18  As far as I know, the Spade has a high strength shaft.  I would be wary about any other material bending.   Danforth anchors are easy to build.  I build a huge one out of scrap SS I had laying around.  I thought it was very strong but bent it's shaft in a storm.  I had to straighten it out and double the thickness of the shaft until I was happy with it.  My theme with anchors is go big or go home.  If you want to build a storm anchor that comes apart and stores down below, I like the look of the Bulwagga.  It would be very easy to build a large one but the downside is it may snag the anchor line when the wind turns.  The cheapest and easiest thing to do may be to just keep you eye out for a deal on a used anchor.  You may get one for less than the cost of building one and galvanizing.   I got a 30kg Excel for less than $100.   It is head and shoulders better than the plow that I used to have as my regular anchor.  There are some dimensions below.  If you are going to build an anchor, make the edges sharp to cut and penetrate weed.  It can make a big difference.  http://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-excel-anchor http://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-excel-anchor  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gerd.finger@...> wrote :   I want to supply my 30' GRP Colin Archer with a spade anchor. I know, "GRP Colin Archer" in ths forum is a bit of a provocation, but this is the true metal boat building expert forum and the place to ask for ideas on building an anchor yourself.  Are there any plans or evene cutting files for spade like anchors around?  I'm looking for a 20kg size, maybe with detachable shaft.     Cheers,  Gerd          |
33225|33222|2016-01-31 01:01:41|Stephen Wandling|Re: Domina del Mar|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Domina del Mar                             Date:            Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:38:13 +0100                             From:            Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Best start I have every seen in 12 years of looking.  This is what I would buy, if I was aiming for this type of boat.    On 03/01/2016 00:53, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > http://www.willsmarineboatbrokers.com/listings.html > > This 60 footer is for sale, for any offers, in Comox, if anyone wants  > a boat that big.She just had a very expensive paint job, bow thruster,  > and all systems, nothing but the best , put in her recently at Ocean  > Pacific boat yard in Campbell River BC. The round bilged hull is  > indistinguishable from a new fibreglass boat, fresh out of the mold.  > She was designed by McClear and Harriss, and a sistership was featured  > in Beisers book 'The Proper Yacht" > Angantyre) >  Chuck Burchill, the guy who built her, was a master mechanic,  > perfectionist  and a genius. While she doesn't have an interior yet,  > that could be done easily, Not having an interior leaves the inside  > freely accessible for a survey. > She is fully rigged with a very expensive new  rig , and the engine is  > new. > She was for sale for around $90K , a fraction the cost of building   > her to that stage,but any offers would be accepted now.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)        |
33226|33226|2016-01-31 01:02:26|Stephen Wandling|Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Mon, 4 Jan 2016 13:08:07 -0800                             From:            Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust  seems like a good idea.  However, I have  a few questions for those of  you who have dry exhaust:  What did you do for an outlet on the hull?  (My hull is aluminum, which  might complicate things for me) Did you go slightly above or below the waterline?  If you went below  waterline, how did you implement a siphon break?  Thanks, Darren        |
33227|33223|2016-01-31 01:03:11|Stephen Wandling|Re: Spade Anchor DYS|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: Spade Anchor DYS                             Date:            04 Jan 2016 13:49:54 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                        Gerd  I once went into a ship swindler and started taking patterns off a Delta anchor .  When the salesman inquired, I told him I had to check to see if it would fit my bow roller. He said I could bring it back if it doesn't fit , so I told him  my boat was on an island, 100 miles away. So he left me alone to make patterns for several. Three of us  got together to make anchors, one on the cutting torch , one on the welder and one on the grinder. We made $10K worth of Delta anchors in three days, and sold one to  pay for the materials, taking three each, for our own use. A spade  should be easy to make up. We made a hollow in the  point  for lead ballast, leaving a hole in the back to pour the lead in , after galvanizing.that way epoxy over the hole, to stop electrolysis between the lead and the galv,wont be ground off.    |
33228|33222|2016-01-31 01:03:52|Stephen Wandling|Re: Domina del Mar|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Domina del Mar                             Date:            04 Jan 2016 14:00:52 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote : I just checked her interior out today. There was a whole lot more there than I expected, beautifully finished woodwork, where it is finished, a new teak and holly floor, and a lot more finished interior than I thought. It could be sailed to Costa Rica or Thailand, where wood work is  cheap, tomorrow , and the interior finished there. There is enough interior to get you there, and all new sails , mast and rig, brand new Furlex furlers on the jib, staysail and main, all new hydraulics on the anchor winch, thoroughly  done,. The rig is  worth more than they are asking for the whole boat. The owner has had health problems, and would take any offer.  The steel inside is in perfect condition, except for a few rust spots, which could be cleaned adequately with a needle scaler, then epoxied and foamed. She has a lot of built in tankage, well done. The new engine and the engine room look immaculate.    Best start I have every seen in 12 years of looking.    This is what I would buy, if I was aiming for this type of boat.       On 03/01/2016 00:53, brentswain38@... mailto:brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:  >  >  > http://www.willsmarineboatbrokers.com/listings.html http://www.willsmarineboatbrokers.com/listings.html  >  > This 60 footer is for sale, for any offers, in Comox, if anyone wants   > a boat that big.She just had a very expensive paint job, bow thruster,   > and all systems, nothing but the best , put in her recently at Ocean   > Pacific boat yard in Campbell River BC. The round bilged hull is   > indistinguishable from a new fibreglass boat, fresh out of the mold.   > She was designed by McClear and Harriss, and a sistership was featured   > in Beisers book 'The Proper Yacht"  > Angantyre)  > Chuck Burchill, the guy who built her, was a master mechanic,   > perfectionist and a genius. While she doesn't have an interior yet,   > that could be done easily, Not having an interior leaves the inside   > freely accessible for a survey.  > She is fully rigged with a very expensive new rig , and the engine is   > new.  > She was for sale for around $90K , a fraction the cost of building   > her to that stage,but any offers would be accepted now.    --   -hanermo (cnc designs)        |
33229|33226|2016-01-31 01:04:30|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                         Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            04 Jan 2016 14:09:49 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                        I run mine out a bit above the waterline, then thru an elbow, pointing it downward to about 6 inches  below the waterline. There, another elbow with a rubber flap on it, points it aft . I have a 1/4 inch anti siphon hole in the top elbow. With steel boats, I surround the part which goes thru the transom with stainless, set in flush withe transom plate , but aluminium would dissipate the heat so quickly, I doubt it wouldn't  even get warm     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :   As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust   seems like a good idea. However, I have a few questions for those of   you who have dry exhaust:    What did you do for an outlet on the hull? (My hull is aluminum, which   might complicate things for me)  Did you go slightly above or below the waterline? If you went below   waterline, how did you implement a siphon break?    Thanks, Darren      |
33230|33226|2016-01-31 01:05:07|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:08:53 -0800                             From:            Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Thanks Brent, I'd checked your book first, but this extra detail helps.   So, if I understand correctly, you weld either pipe or an elbow directly  to the stern surrounded by a section of stainless? Unless I've  overlooked something, it seems like I'll need some kind of mechanical  fastening for my outlet as I don't think aluminum pipe is suitable for  the exhaust, so I'd have to make some kind of transition to connect the  stainless exhaust pipe to the outlet on the aluminum transom.    On 16-01-04 02:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > > > I run mine out a bit above the waterline, then thru an elbow, pointing  > it downward to about 6 inches  below the waterline. There, another  > elbow with a rubber flap on it, points it aft . I have a 1/4 inch anti  > siphon hole in the top elbow. With steel boats, I surround the part  > which goes thru the transom with stainless, set in flush withe transom  > plate , but aluminium would dissipate the heat so quickly, I doubt it  > wouldn't  even get warm > > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : > > As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust > seems like a good idea. However, I have a few questions for those of > you who have dry exhaust: > > What did you do for an outlet on the hull? (My hull is aluminum, which > might complicate things for me) > Did you go slightly above or below the waterline? If you went below > waterline, how did you implement a siphon break? > > Thanks, Darren >         |
33231|33226|2016-01-31 01:06:10|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:38:53 +0000 (UTC)                             From:            Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Darren Here is my idea if I may share I am thinking you weld your aluminum pipe with a flange or or use a SS muffler clamp to the engine and weld a an aluminum 1/4 or 3/8" thick 4 bolt flange on the outside to the pipe nozzleI attached a PDF of what my thought were  Aaron           From: "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 9:08 AM  Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet          Thanks Brent, I'd checked your book first, but this extra detail helps.  So, if I understand correctly, you weld either pipe or an elbow directly to the stern surrounded by a section of stainless?  Unless I've overlooked something, it seems like I'll need some kind of mechanical fastening for my outlet as I don't think aluminum pipe is suitable for the exhaust, so I'd have to make some kind of transition to connect the stainless exhaust pipe to the outlet on the aluminum transom.       On 16-01-04 02:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:                  I run mine out a bit above the waterline, then thru an elbow, pointing it downward to about 6 inches  below the waterline. There, another elbow with a rubber flap on it, points it aft . I have a 1/4 inch anti siphon hole in the top elbow. With steel boats, I surround the part which goes thru the transom with stainless, set in flush withe transom plate , but aluminium would dissipate the heat so quickly, I doubt it wouldn't  even get warm        ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :    As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust   seems like a good idea. However, I have a few questions for those of   you who have dry exhaust:    What did you do for an outlet on the hull? (My hull is aluminum, which   might complicate things for me)  Did you go slightly above or below the waterline? If you went below   waterline, how did you implement a siphon break?    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33232|33226|2016-01-31 01:07:01|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            05 Jan 2016 13:30:17 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : With aluminium, I think I would weld in a section of 2 inch sch 40 aluminium  pipe thru the aluminium transom, then run the 1 1/2 inch sch 40 stainless thru this, the gap between them  being filled with silicone.     Thanks Brent, I'd checked your book first, but this extra detail helps.  So, if I understand correctly, you weld either pipe or an elbow directly to the stern surrounded by a section of stainless?  Unless I've overlooked something, it seems like I'll need some kind of mechanical fastening for my outlet as I don't think aluminum pipe is suitable for the exhaust, so I'd have to make some kind of transition to connect the stainless exhaust pipe to the outlet on the aluminum transom.       On 16-01-04 02:09 PM, brentswain38@... mailto:brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:               I run mine out a bit above the waterline, then thru an elbow, pointing it downward to about 6 inches  below the waterline. There, another elbow with a rubber flap on it, points it aft . I have a 1/4 inch anti siphon hole in the top elbow. With steel boats, I surround the part which goes thru the transom with stainless, set in flush withe transom plate , but aluminium would dissipate the heat so quickly, I doubt it wouldn't  even get warm        ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> mailto:bosdg@... wrote :    As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust   seems like a good idea. However, I have a few questions for those of   you who have dry exhaust:    What did you do for an outlet on the hull? (My hull is aluminum, which   might complicate things for me)  Did you go slightly above or below the waterline? If you went below   waterline, how did you implement a siphon break?    Thanks, Darren             |
33233|33226|2016-01-31 01:07:45|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            05 Jan 2016 13:32:29 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       You would be wise to  make up the entire stainless exhaust pipe before welding the aluminium one in, to get the alignment right.    |
33234|33226|2016-01-31 01:08:35|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            06 Jan 2016 06:27:47 -0800                             From:            lae52@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Darren, I've got a 28' aluminum research boat that I'm in charge of. Granted, the boat has a wet exhaust, but all the original builder did was weld an aluminum pipe to the transom. That was connected to the stainless exhaust pipe by a heavy duty reinforced rubber hose and hose clamps. What about doing something similar and use some flex exhaust pipe to connect to the rest of the exhaust system if temperature is a problem    Dave      |
33235|14634|2016-01-31 01:09:29|Stephen Wandling|Series Drogue|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Series Drogue                             Date:            12 Jan 2016 13:16:51 -0800                             From:            aguysailing@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    New Zealand Ferry Rough Crossing.mov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjWMDAYWZs     South seas destination... may want a series droque  (Note: to Steve.... would Silas Crosby so equipped weathered this).  Also... a good reason not to stay in your car in on ferry in these waters).       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjWMDAYWZs     New Zealand Ferry Rough Crossing.mov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjWMDAYWZs The Cook Straits Interislander ferry from Wellington to Picton underwent an extremely rough crossing in March 2006. Many vehicles were severely damaged b...        View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjWMDAYWZs   Preview by Yahoo             |
33236|14634|2016-01-31 01:10:14|Stephen Wandling|Re: Series Drogue|                                                         Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: Series Drogue                             Date:            12 Jan 2016 14:45:56 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       While Silas Crosby would have bounced more, she would have suffered no damage, not having  all that cargo to come loose. The storm he encountered off Valdiva , blew  down century old trees, so must have been the strongest in that amount of time, in the southern ocean.  Reminds me of the last time I crossed Cook Strait in a ferry. It was a long weekend and blowing like hell directly from Antarctca. People were sleeping all over the floor. At daybreak they headed for the cafeteria for breakfast, just before the ship came beam on to the huge swells, to enter Wellington harbour. She rolled like hell, and soup, peas ,mashed potatoes, gravy , etc,  were spilled everywhere, mixed with the  content of stomachs, which became instantly seasick . I went to the top deck, and waited til she had docked, then held my nose while disembarking.  In the early 70s the ferry Wahine rolled over entering Wellington, in similar conditions , with the loss of many  lives. Dangerous place.    |
33237|33226|2016-01-31 01:11:00|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            12 Jan 2016 14:48:49 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       I think running a stainless pipe right thru would be more reliable, and tougher. The silicone between the two pipes would give a lot of flex    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <lae52@...> wrote :   Darren, I've got a 28' aluminum research boat that I'm in charge of. Granted, the boat has a wet exhaust, but all the original builder did was weld an aluminum pipe to the transom. That was connected to the stainless exhaust pipe by a heavy duty reinforced rubber hose and hose clamps. What about doing something similar and use some flex exhaust pipe to connect to the rest of the exhaust system if temperature is a problem    Dave        |
33238|33226|2016-01-31 01:11:54|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Tue, 12 Jan 2016 20:12:44 -0800                             From:            Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Hi Dave, that is similar to how the boat is setup right now, with a  standpipe wet exhaust.  As I refit, I'm adding keel cooling, but still  have to work out the exhaust.  It does look like the dry exhaust temps  are too high for aluminum.  Brent's idea would solve that problem, but I  don't think I'd be willing to trust silicone, exposed to that kind of  heat, that close to the waterline.......  Darren   On 16-01-06 06:27 AM, lae52@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Darren, I've got a 28' aluminum research boat that I'm in charge of.  > Granted, the boat has a wet exhaust, but all the original builder did  > was weld an aluminum pipe to the transom. That was connected to the  > stainless exhaust pipe by a heavy duty reinforced rubber hose and hose  > clamps. What about doing something similar and use some flex exhaust  > pipe to connect to the rest of the exhaust system if temperature is a  > problem > > > Dave >         |
33239|33226|2016-01-31 01:12:28|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            13 Jan 2016 17:54:54 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Friends have had silicone that far from the engine for years with no problem. It only fails  when it is too close to the engine. It has a very high temperature tolerance. I put a bit on the  front of my wood stove, and it lasted for years. I use it for my stove gaskets.    |
33240|33226|2016-01-31 01:13:24|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Thu, 14 Jan 2016 09:42:47 -0500                             From:            Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    There is special high temperature silicon solid at the hardware store in Canada for sealing the flue on gas and wood stoves.  It is a different consistency than window/bathroom silicon, creamier.  I have it very close to my woodstove in the flute.  I have seen parts of my stove glowing red and the silicon still looks pristine.   Someone also put some on my Universal engine for an unknown reason, and it looks fresh with no sign of degradation.   I would not use it in place of an asbetos gasket ring between the exhaust manifold and engine but I am pretty sure my tractor mechanic uses it in addition to the asbestos gasket ring for better sealing.   It may be a slightly different material that looks like red high temperature silicon for woodstoves.  Matt   "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  Friends have had silicone that far from the engine for years with no problem. It only fails  when it is too close to the engine. It has a very high temperature tolerance. I put a bit on the  front of my wood stove, and it lasted for years. I use it for my stove gaskets.      |
33241|33226|2016-01-31 01:14:07|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            14 Jan 2016 12:30:45 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    How hot does a dry exhaust really get?  I am sure it is very hot where it comes out of the manifold but I would think by the time it gets to the transom a lot of the heat has been dissipated.  I would think that you also normally have a water cooled (jacketed) exhaust manifold on a keel cooled boat whether it is a dry exhaust or not. This (and also a low horsepower compared to a car) helps keep temperatures down.               |
33242|33226|2016-01-31 01:14:38|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:08:47 -0500                             From:            Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Opusnz,  It would depend on a great many things how hot the dry exhaust would be.   Yes, a water jacketed section of exhaust and a water cooled exhaust manifold, even if dry would reduce the exhaust temperature.    If the motor is surrounded by wood working and sound insulation (which is usually good heat insulation too), or foam on the inside of the hull, it is entirely different from being open, where air might circulate, in a bare steel hull.   I think the issue is the paint near the exhaust port.  It may last a very long time at ordinary temperatures, but at elevated temperatures, not so much.   Brent's idea of stainless eliminates the paint issue to the extent the stainless reaches.     I would be inclined to remove as much heat as possible from the exhaust, it makes everything last longer, and makes working in the area far more comfortable, and accidentally touching the exhaust more uncomfortable rather than potentially injuring.   For instance, I would consider a loop of engine coolant water as a potential part of a domestic hot water system and hydronic heating system.   I would also consider bypass valves to allow it to be part of a hydronic heating system in the boat.   I have been giving this some thought.  A flow pattern for a closed-loop cooling system might be:  +Engine input   (yes, have the ability to bypass the engine for a faster warm-up, or maintenance) +Engine output  +Exhaust Manifold input (ideally counterflow to exhaust) +Exhaust Manifold output  +Woodstove input +Woodstove output  +Domestic Hot Water Tank Input   +Domestic Hot Water Tank Output  +Hydronic Heating Loop Input +t+ +Hydronic Heating Loop Output  +Skeg Cooler Input +Skeg Cooler Output  +secondary electric pump input +secondary electric pump output  T to expansion tank mounted high  +Secondary Exhaust Cooler Input  (counterflow to exhaust direction of flow) +Secondary Exhaust Cooler Output  +Engine Input  (repeat)  ++ is a bypass arrangement of 3 valves  to either allow flow to bypass a loop, or force it through a loop.  Either the 2 loop valves are open, or the bypass valve is open.    +t+ is a thermostatic bypass valve, something that will manage cabin temperature without a person playing with valves.    In warm weather, or during loop maintenance, bypass the heating loop.  The other bypass valves are mainly there for maintenance, so the entire cooling system never needs to be drained or purged of air.  The bypass valves may also be used to isolate a leaking section.  Normally there is an internal passage from the engine block to the water cooled exhaust manifold so bypass is not possible, but, if your engine has a little short hose from the block to the exhaust manifold, there is the opportunity of creating a bypass.     The idea here is, it would result in the coolest coolant temperatures being at the exit of the exhaust to extract the maximum useful heat as well as leaving the exhaust as cool as possible.  It also pre-heats the water going into the engine using the residual exhaust heat after the water-cooled exhaust manifold.  Running water that is too cold into an engine may make it run too cool and inefficiently and produce less HP.   It leaves the hottest temperatures going into the domestic hot water tank.  This leaves the lowest temperatures at the secondary electric pump and the expansion tank.     If both the engine water pump and secondary electric pump are centrifugal/jet pump types, then either pump can keep the system flowing without playing with valves.     This has the benefits that:  - the secondary electric pump can keep the engine cool if a belt fails.   - the woodstove and secondary electric pump can preheat the engine block so that starting is easier and fuel use is more efficient from the start -- shorter running will not be as damaging.   - either the engine or the woodstove and secondary electric pump can get cabin heat to the forepeak, perhaps with a loop of hose under the berth for instance so all parts of the boat are warm even with the cabin doors closed.   Practically one may wish to have two secondary pumps in parallel, with valves -- one very low power, low flow for maintaining the domestic hot water tank and hydronic heating only, the other capable of replacing the flow of the water pump in the engine.      Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 12:30:45 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                                                     How hot does a dry exhaust really get?  I am sure it is very hot where it comes out of the manifold but I would think by the time it gets to the transom a lot of the heat has been dissipated.  I would think that you also normally have a water cooled (jacketed) exhaust manifold on a keel cooled boat whether it is a dry exhaust or not. This (and also a low horsepower compared to a car) helps keep temperatures down.                             Practically           		 	   		       |
33243|33226|2016-01-31 01:15:36|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:12:44 -0800                             From:            Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    I'm sure some heat is lost by the time you get to the transom, but not  sure how much.  If you are going to have dry exhaust it must be very  well insulated, otherwise you heat up the boat and it presents a couple  of nasty hazards (fire, burns).  If it is really well insulated, then  things might start to get pretty hot even with a bit of length to the  exhaust run.  I'm still trying to get my head around the silicone solution.  I'm sure  that the silicone could survive the temperatures, but I'm not as  confident that it would maintain a watertight bond, which would be nice  given the proximity to the waterline!  I suppose I could do something  like weld an oversized aluminum pipe to the hull as a standpipe above  waterline and then silicone the stainless exhaust pipe inside that.   Then even if the silicone bond fails, I wouldn't have a leak.  Given  that this is a hole very close to the waterline, I'd like something that  was bomb proof.  Previously, I had a standpipe wet exhaust (  http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10895&stc=1&d=1437007171  ), which isn't a bad solution either, and the boat is already setup for  that.  I'd rather have dry exhaust if I can convince myself I've got a  bombproof solution for the outlet.  Otherwise, I'll use the standpipe  wet-exhaust, but still have keel cooling for the engine.  Darren   On 16-01-14 12:30 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > How hot does a dry exhaust really get?  I am sure it is very hot where  > it comes out of the manifold but I would think by the time it gets to  > the transom a lot of the heat has been dissipated.  I would think that  > you also normally have a water cooled (jacketed) exhaust manifold on a  > keel cooled boat whether it is a dry exhaust or not. This (and also a  > low horsepower compared to a car) helps keep temperatures down. > > >         |
33244|33226|2016-01-31 01:16:25|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:21:09 -0800                             From:            Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    It's a good idea Matt, but I think if you tried to scavenge heat from  the exhaust you could get the temps in the calorifier (water tank) above  boiling temps.  So, you would need then to actively managed where the  coolant around the exhaust piping was going too and from.  This is more  than I would care to actively do.  I do think it is a really good idea  to do the rest of what you described and think most of it can be  accomplished by tapping into the coolant outlet line from the engine  before it goes to the keel cooler.  Darren  On 16-01-14 02:08 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]  wrote:  > > Opusnz, > > It would depend on a great many things how hot the dry exhaust would  > be.   Yes, a water jacketed section of exhaust and a water cooled  > exhaust manifold, even if dry would reduce the exhaust temperature. > > If the motor is surrounded by wood working and sound insulation (which  > is usually good heat insulation too), or foam on the inside of the  > hull, it is entirely different from being open, where air might  > circulate, in a bare steel hull.   I think the issue is the paint near  > the exhaust port.  It may last a very long time at ordinary  > temperatures, but at elevated temperatures, not so much. Brent's idea  > of stainless eliminates the paint issue to the extent the stainless  > reaches. > > I would be inclined to remove as much heat as possible from the  > exhaust, it makes everything last longer, and makes working in the  > area far more comfortable, and accidentally touching the exhaust more  > uncomfortable rather than potentially injuring.   For instance, I  > would consider a loop of engine coolant water as a potential part of a  > domestic hot water system and hydronic heating system.   I would also  > consider bypass valves to allow it to be part of a hydronic heating  > system in the boat.   I have been giving this some thought.  A flow  > pattern for a closed-loop cooling system might be: > > +Engine input   (yes, have the ability to bypass the engine for a  > faster warm-up, or maintenance) > +Engine output > > +Exhaust Manifold input (ideally counterflow to exhaust) > +Exhaust Manifold output > > +Woodstove input > +Woodstove output > > +Domestic Hot Water Tank Input > +Domestic Hot Water Tank Output > > +Hydronic Heating Loop Input > +t+ > +Hydronic Heating Loop Output > > +Skeg Cooler Input > +Skeg Cooler Output > > +secondary electric pump input > +secondary electric pump output > > T to expansion tank mounted high > > +Secondary Exhaust Cooler Input  (counterflow to exhaust direction of  > flow) > +Secondary Exhaust Cooler Output > > +Engine Input > > (repeat) > > ++ is a bypass arrangement of 3 valves  to either allow flow to bypass  > a loop, or force it through a loop.  Either the 2 loop valves are  > open, or the bypass valve is open. > > +t+ is a thermostatic bypass valve, something that will manage cabin  > temperature without a person playing with valves. > > In warm weather, or during loop maintenance, bypass the heating loop.   > The other bypass valves are mainly there for maintenance, so the  > entire cooling system never needs to be drained or purged of air.  The  > bypass valves may also be used to isolate a leaking section.  Normally  > there is an internal passage from the engine block to the water cooled  > exhaust manifold so bypass is not possible, but, if your engine has a  > little short hose from the block to the exhaust manifold, there is the  > opportunity of creating a bypass. > > The idea here is, it would result in the coolest coolant temperatures  > being at the exit of the exhaust to extract the maximum useful heat as  > well as leaving the exhaust as cool as possible.  It also pre-heats  > the water going into the engine using the residual exhaust heat after  > the water-cooled exhaust manifold.  Running water that is too cold  > into an engine may make it run too cool and inefficiently and produce  > less HP. > > It leaves the hottest temperatures going into the domestic hot water tank. > > This leaves the lowest temperatures at the secondary electric pump and  > the expansion tank. > > If both the engine water pump and secondary electric pump are  > centrifugal/jet pump types, then either pump can keep the system  > flowing without playing with valves. > > This has the benefits that: > > - the secondary electric pump can keep the engine cool if a belt fails. > - the woodstove and secondary electric pump can preheat the engine  > block so that starting is easier and fuel use is more efficient from  > the start -- shorter running will not be as damaging. > - either the engine or the woodstove and secondary electric pump can  > get cabin heat to the forepeak, perhaps with a loop of hose under the  > berth for instance so all parts of the boat are warm even with the  > cabin doors closed. > > Practically one may wish to have two secondary pumps in parallel, with  > valves -- one very low power, low flow for maintaining the domestic  > hot water tank and hydronic heating only, the other capable of  > replacing the flow of the water pump in the engine. > > Matt > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 12:30:45 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet > > How hot does a dry exhaust really get?  I am sure it is very hot where  > it comes out of the manifold but I would think by the time it gets to  > the transom a lot of the heat has been dissipated.  I would think that  > you also normally have a water cooled (jacketed) exhaust manifold on a  > keel cooled boat whether it is a dry exhaust or not. This (and also a  > low horsepower compared to a car) helps keep temperatures down. > > > > > > Practically >         |
33245|33226|2016-01-31 01:17:25|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            14 Jan 2016 15:34:46 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Matt, I doubt that it would get so hot that the paint blistered as far back as the transom.   As Brent says, standard silicone can take one hell of a lot of heat.  I would just do as he says and have SS pipe inside another pipe with silicone between.  It could be welded in or bolted, but either way, it would last many years.   If any of it was aluminum, I would make sure I use neutral cure silicone since acetic cured silicone will corrode aluminum.  I have keel cooling on my boat with a wet exhaust.  It is a simple system using the thermostat and centrifugal pump that came with the diesel.   A belt driven 1/2 inch Jabsco impeller pump is used for the wet exhaust.  I have galv pipe in the engine compartment for the exhaust and then a fiberglass water lift muffler and rubber hose from there to the transom. I would have preferred a dry exhaust but it was impossible since my engine is mounted in a very tight place under the sinks in the center of the boat.    In over 25 years, the only failure I have had on the entire exhaust/cooling system is on the Jabsco pump when a bearing failed due to a leaking seal.  When it failed, it was easy to hear the change in sound and shut the engine down before the exhaust got overheated.  I check it every year now so I doubt I will have a surprise again.   I have replaced the standard galv  pipes and elbows on the exhaust a couple of times due to corrosion where the water is injected.   I can do it in an hour or two and it is all dirt cheap so I carry spares.    In my opinion, the system you describe is far too complicated with far too much plumbing.   Hoses can chafe.  The fewer valves and pumps you have, the more reliable it will be.   You don't need to preheat diesels to get them to start easier.   Glow plugs are more than enough.   I don't see any reason to complicate things any further and I wouldn't want to risk my engine for the sake of bunch of valves or heaters which may fail one day.    Cheers, Paul    |
33246|33226|2016-01-31 01:18:02|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            14 Jan 2016 15:40:55 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    I was told by the old man (Vic) who used to run Klassen diesels to not use a standpipe exhaust.  He said it was one of the leading reasons he replaced engines on fishing boats.   Any pinhole leak, and the water drains back into the engine.  The time you find out is the time you try to start your diesel and water hammer your engine.   Paul    Previously, I had a standpipe wet exhaust ( http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10895&stc=1&d=1437007171 http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10895&stc=1&d=1437007171  ), which isn't a bad solution either, and the boat is already setup for that.  I'd rather have dry exhaust if I can convince myself I've got a bombproof solution for the outlet.  Otherwise, I'll use the standpipe wet-exhaust, but still have keel cooling for the engine.    Darren      |
33247|33226|2016-01-31 01:21:24|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            14 Jan 2016 17:25:43 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       You can also stuff a cooking thermometer up the arse of her and check it out.    |
33248|33226|2016-01-31 01:22:35|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            14 Jan 2016 17:40:59 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Keep it simple!  On metalboatsociety.com a diesel mechanic was quoted as saying "If everyone went for dry exhaust and keel cooling ,us mechanics would all be out of work." A friend I meet in Tonga went  thru several engines due to condensation corrosion on the valves, due to wet exhaust. He now has a dry exhaust.  My dry exhaust has given me no problems in 32 years.  It takes a while, even with a wet exhaust , for the raised temperature to cause corrosion around the exhaust pipe, but it still happens, eventually.Stainless there eliminates the problem I wrapped my dry  exhaust  with fibreglass house insulation ,then aluminum  foil, then 3 inch wide flat muffler tape, then siliconed the works. After days of motoring in the tropics, it  still feels cool to the touch.    |
33249|33226|2016-01-31 01:23:35|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            14 Jan 2016 18:06:59 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    He must have had a screwed up system for that to happen.  My engine has been running since 1992 and it is just fine with a wet exhaust and no corrosion problems at all.  Like anything else, you need to do it right.   My guess is that either waves were getting in through the back, his anti-syphon for the water injection wasn't operating correctly or his water injection point was far too high and close to the engine.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :    A friend I meet in Tonga went  thru several engines due to condensation corrosion on the valves, due to wet exhaust. He now has a dry exhaust.  My dry exhaust has given me no problems in 32 years.  It takes a while, even with a wet exhaust , for the raised temperature to cause corrosion around the exhaust pipe, but it still happens, eventually.Stainless there eliminates the problem I wrapped my dry  exhaust  with fibreglass house insulation ,then aluminum  foil, then 3 inch wide flat muffler tape, then siliconed the works. After days of motoring in the tropics, it  still feels cool to the touch.      |
33250|33226|2016-01-31 01:24:35|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:12:28 -0500                             From:            Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Hey Paul,  I appreciate your input and others questioning the complexity and risk of problems.  I have been thinking about this in a vacuum of seeing how others do things and the results they obtain.  Here is some background thinking on it that lead me to where I am.  Currently my boat is ocean/lake water cooled.  The typical temperature in the engine block cooling system cannot exceed the boiling point of water or there would be a constant and significant back pressure involved in getting the water & steam into the water cooled exhaust manifold.   I do not find this surprising.  My tractor, which has a similar sized engine, of a similar horsepower (20hp vs. 25hp in the boat), of a similar vintage, runs with a zero pressure cooling system (loose rad cap) and it does not boil off the coolant.   My tractor engine even sounds like my boat engine.   Now, I will admit that depending on how the cooling water is pumped into the exhaust stream, (after the manifold cooling) and the power of the engine, the water may be boiling at that point.  In general, in someone else's engine, any attempt to constrict the flow after the exhaust manifold into a closed loop system may raise the pressure and temperature above atmospheric and boiling.    But water takes a tremendous amount of heat to boil. This means two things: If the flow is fast enough, there can be no boiling.  If water is fed into the engine at 50C (system temperature hot enough to discourage microbial & algae action) instead of 15C, that is only 21% of the energy toward boiling.  That is because actually boiling takes an equivalent of another 80C in energy input above 100C.   This can all be solved by allowing a little water to boil.  That is how cooling towers on buildings work, they allow a tiny amount of the water to boil and that greatly decreases the temperature of the rest of the water.   Dealing with a small quantity of 100C steam / vapour at atmospheric pressure is not a large problem and neither is condensing it and returning it to the overflow tank.   What is that shiny chrome seatback you have in the cockpit that looks like a giant hip flask?  Could it be both a condenser and comfortable place to sit on a 10C day?  But I doubt that will  be necessary.   I ran my engine off a barrel of fresh water (piped into the engine  intake using off-the-rack plumbing fittings) and watched how fast the water went down in the barrel.  It  seemed far faster than the engine would be capable of boiling it.  By  the end of the barrel, the water coming out was quite warm, but, not  boiling by any stretch.   The engine itself seemed to be at running  temperature.  It strikes me, with proper mixing of water spray in a wet  exhaust, it could easily never be hot enough to burn people or paint or anything.   It is not surprising that wet exhaust is easy to do and effective.  Dry exhaust is an  entirely different story.  It would depend on how good the water-cooled  exhaust manifold is.   Welding up (or braising up in copper alloys) an auxiliary water  cooled exhaust section to supplement the manifold cooling does not seem  hard.     A quick calculation using an intermediary of boiler horsepower (1bhp=13.16 mechanical horsepower and 1bhp=boil 34.5lb/hour of 100C water into 100C steam, and assuming a 20% thermal efficiency of my engine) a 25 hp engine, at full-out rpm at full power (which it seldom is) if all the energy (including the extra 80% that is normally wasted as heat) went into boiling water, it could boil about 325 lb of water at 100C into 100C steam/ hour.   That is about 3/4 of a rain barrel, per hour.   Playing with my engine from idle to about 1000 rpm, it took less than 5 minutes to drain a rain barrel through the cooling system.  That is more than 12 rain barrels per hour near idle.   Knowing the ratio of heat capacity to get water from 15C to 100C to that needed to boil 100C water (about 85:80), an input of lake/ocean water at 15C cannot be at 100C at the output.   Independently this convinces me the water in my engine is typically pumped through far too fast for the engine to be able to  boil it.  Provided I return it to the engine well below boiling, even if quite warm, the system should be manageable.  So one is starting with probably more than a factor of 10 as a margin in a small-engine boat cooling system before one adds complication and errors.  This is probably why cooling skegs are relatively easy to make at home from Brent's instructions.  Also, provided the auxiliary exhaust cooler is reasonably good, then dry exhaust can be reasonably cool.               It seems to me that once the water is moving in hoses near atmospheric pressure, below the boiling point, hardware-store plumbing hardware and hoses good for far higher pressures seems to provide a very high factor of safety.  In my boat, all the cooling hoses are smaller than 3/4" in size well within common plumbing fittings and automotive hoses.  Beyond isolating valves, I consider the risks in long runs of hoses minuscule really.   Remember, I am wrapping them with insulation anyway to keep the heat in them until they get somewhere, so, chafing is not my first concern.   In the limit, opening all bypass valves and closing all isolating valves outside the sections that are necessary makes the active portion of the engine cooling system quite small.  Still, having one more valve right at the engine to eliminate everything not absolutely needed in the engine cooling system makes the number of other valves and length of unused piping irrelevant.   I will call it the KISS valv e.  Certainly one KISS valve, operating far below its specification is reasonably safe?     I have seen a transport-sized, bio-diesel fueled, stationary, turbo-diesel that had its cooling system plumbed into the building heating system, as part of an off-grid industrial application.  Drain-sized (around 2 inch) copper pipe was used to circulate hot water, no problem.  As for the calorifier (hot water tank) going over 100C.  No problem.  If the domestic water pressure system is less than 15psi over atmospheric, it will not boil at 100C being fed by a cooling system open to the atmosphere at the overflow tank.  Realistically, for my boat and a good system, it will never get to 100C.  The hot water tank can be protected by a 15PSI pressure relief valve (pressure-only), a common pressure in very reliable, low-pressure, industrial boilers.   Industrial boilers typically start at thermal power ratings several times that of a 25 mechanical hp (+ waste heat) engine, so, an appropriate sized relief should be easy to source.  Ordinary pressure reliefs for house hot water tanks are 150PSI (but are at the same time temperature reliefs set below 210F -- either condition will open them).  One can install both to make sure the water tank cannot go over 100C or 15psi.     It seems the engine should be capable of making a bathtub of hot water in a fraction of an hour.  Why would I give up that ability for the complexity and expense of some very reliable, inexpensive, industrially-tested components?   Especially since, worst case, I open the KISS valve and close all others and have everyone else's system?     As for the comment by someone else that there is no need to prewarm an engine.  Yes, glow plugs are great, but, my recollection is, all diesel equipment likes a warm-up period.    It stands to reason then that though they might start cold, pre-warming them is better.  My engine is in fact gasoline so I know, that even a little warmer is better.   A little warmer also drives off moisture and can make a wet ignition system into a dry ignition system with time.   Old engines may be completely reliable, and still like being warm.   Yes, someone is going to say I should repower to diesel... maybe one day.       I think dry exhaust is an excellent conversion and I definitely want to do it on my boat to keep my engine cooled by clean, non-muddy, non-salt water in all cases.  Coolant also contains rust inhibitors.   Yes, I intend to make a cooling skeg, and an auxiliary exhaust cooler.  The added effort of a few valves and a hot water tank seems minimal in comparison to that conversion.  Also, if I ever re-power, I already have a recirculating cooling system in place -- one less thing to worry about.    Matt       To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:34:46 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                                                     Matt, I doubt that it would get so hot that the paint blistered as far back as the transom.   As Brent says, standard silicone can take one hell of a lot of heat.  I would just do as he says and have SS pipe inside another pipe with silicone between.  It could be welded in or bolted, but either way, it would last many years.   If any of it was aluminum, I would make sure I use neutral cure silicone since acetic cured silicone will corrode aluminum.  I have keel cooling on my boat with a wet exhaust.  It is a simple system using the thermostat and centrifugal pump that came with the diesel.   A belt driven 1/2 inch Jabsco impeller pump is used for the wet exhaust.  I have galv pipe in the engine compartment for the exhaust and then a fiberglass water lift muffler and rubber hose from there to the transom. I would have preferred a dry exhaust but it was impossible since my engine  is mounted in a very tight place under the sinks in the center of the boat.    In over 25 years, the only failure I have had on the entire exhaust/cooling system is on the Jabsco pump when a bearing failed due to a leaking seal.  When it failed, it was easy to hear the change in sound and shut the engine down before the exhaust got overheated.  I check it every year now so I doubt I will have a surprise again.   I have replaced the standard galv  pipes and elbows on the exhaust a couple of times due to corrosion where the water is injected.   I can do it in an hour or two and it is all dirt cheap so I carry spares.    In my opinion, the system you describe is far too complicated with far too much plumbing.   Hoses can chafe.  The fewer valves and pumps you have, the more reliable it will be.   You don't need to preheat diesels to get them to start easier.   Glow plugs are more than enough.   I don't see any reason to complicate things any further and I wouldn't want to risk my engine for the sake of bunch of valves or heaters which may fail one day.    Cheers, Paul                                  		 	   		       |
33251|33226|2016-01-31 01:25:14|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            15 Jan 2016 13:10:18 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Matt, if it is keel cooled with a thermostat, boiling is never an issue.   The keel coolers are extremely efficient and the coolant coming out of the skeg or keel cooler is normally barely above sea temperature.   If any part of the system approached boiling temperature, something is seriously wrong.  Once you start the engine, the water quickly heats up in the engine due to the closed loop in the engine and the thermostat.   Once it gets to the thermostat setting (usually about 185 F or 85C) the thermostat opens and the cool water comes in from the keel cooler through the exhaust manifold into the engine.  It probably only takes about 5 or 10 minutes for this to happen.  The preheat of the cooling comes from the exhaust manifold and is all you need.   The thermostat starts opening long before the exhaust manifold gets too hot.   My exhaust manifold is steel and painted with normal engine paint and the paint has never blistered.  Note that my Isuzu diesel uses a centrifugal pump on the front of the engine just like any car engine.  It can operate in bypass (closed loop) mode without undue worry of back pressure.  With a centrifugal pump, they work on flow (volume) versus pressure so I use 1 inch hoses to the keel cooler.  I am sure 3/4 inch would be OK but I have a long run to the engine where it is located  and I didn't want to screw around with it later.   An impeller pump that is used on some engines might need a different arrangement.  You are right about a warm up period being good.   I normally run the engine for about 5 minutes before I pull up anchor.   The thermostat is a very good thing.   A lot of engines that are raw (salt) water cooled or even fresh water cooled engines that don't have a thermostat never get high enough in temperature.  Long term, this can promote scaling and clogging of the internal passages of the engines which leads to hot spots in the engine and overheating.  Many raw water cooled engines end up getting scrapped after 20 years.  If you really want your diesel to last a long time, never have it raw water cooled and always run it at a higher temperature using a thermostat and anti-freeze with a corrosion inhibitor.    |
33252|33226|2016-01-31 01:26:01|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            19 Jan 2016 16:33:22 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       An article in Practical Boat Owner said that an exhaust should rise and fall at least 16 inches, before any cooling water gets injected.How rare is that especially on the ones which come with the  engine?    |
33253|33226|2016-01-31 01:27:00|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            Wed, 20 Jan 2016 02:37:55 +0000 (UTC)                             From:            aaron riis aaronriis@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Does    the flap close when you are reversing?        On Monday, January 4, 2016 2:09 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:              I run mine out a bit above the waterline, then thru an elbow, pointing it downward to about 6 inches  below the waterline. There, another elbow with a rubber flap on it, points it aft . I have a 1/4 inch anti siphon hole in the top elbow. With steel boats, I surround the part which goes thru the transom with stainless, set in flush withe transom plate , but aluminium would dissipate the heat so quickly, I doubt it wouldn't  even get warm    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :  As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust  seems like a good idea. However, I have a few questions for those of  you who have dry exhaust:  What did you do for an outlet on the hull? (My hull is aluminum, which  might complicate things for me) Did you go slightly above or below the waterline? If you went below  waterline, how did you implement a siphon break?  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33254|33226|2016-01-31 01:27:48|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                         Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            20 Jan 2016 13:48:50 -0800                             From:            losforsters@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :     The power boat next to me in the marina with a wet exhaust, turbo cummins is looking at a major overhaul or a complete engine replacement.  Cause, salt water from the exhaust cooling system getting into the turbo and at least two of the six pots.  So far no exhaust issues on Prairie Maids dry system, and no issues with the skeg cooling for the engine with it pushing the boat into the wind and current for many hours at a time.  Has anyone built a spinnaker pole car?  If so how did you go about it.  I have a track and line system on the front of the mast and I'm in the process of building a pole.  Martin...      An article in Practical Boat Owner said that an exhaust should rise and fall at least 16 inches, before any cooling water gets injected.How rare is that especially on the ones which come with the  engine?      |
33255|33226|2016-01-31 01:28:37|Stephen Wandling|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhaust outlet                             Date:            20 Jan 2016 13:56:14 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       That has never been a problem. I don't go backwards all that fast, and if I did, the pressure would be tiny compared to the engine exhaust pressure.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aaronriis@...> wrote :   Does    the flap close when you are reversing?       On Monday, January 4, 2016 2:09 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:             I run mine out a bit above the waterline, then thru an elbow, pointing it downward to about 6 inches  below the waterline. There, another elbow with a rubber flap on it, points it aft . I have a 1/4 inch anti siphon hole in the top elbow. With steel boats, I surround the part which goes thru the transom with stainless, set in flush withe transom plate , but aluminium would dissipate the heat so quickly, I doubt it wouldn't  even get warm      ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :   As I enter the powering stage of my boat, I'm convinced that dry exhaust   seems like a good idea. However, I have a few questions for those of   you who have dry exhaust:    What did you do for an outlet on the hull? (My hull is aluminum, which   might complicate things for me)  Did you go slightly above or below the waterline? If you went below   waterline, how did you implement a siphon break?    Thanks, Darren                           |
33256|33256|2016-01-31 01:29:33|Stephen Wandling|Portlight/ Window sizes and overlap|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Portlight/ Window sizes and overlap                             Date:            20 Jan 2016 19:58:49 -0800                             From:            musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                        How much of a metal lip are people leaving to attach the acrylic to the cabin sides with?            |
33257|33256|2016-01-31 01:30:22|Stephen Wandling|Re: Portlight/ Window sizes and overlap|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: Portlight/ Window sizes and overlap                             Date:            22 Jan 2016 14:51:32 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                       1 3/4 inches works well    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :       How much of a metal lip are people leaving to attach the acrylic to the cabin sides with?              |
33258|33258|2016-01-31 01:31:13|Stephen Wandling|VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            23 Jan 2016 05:01:29 -0800                             From:            musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                     A friend is considering giving me her car. It is a '98 VW Jetta, TDI. The body of the car is beat up.      I was considering trying to put the engine from this car in my boat after using the car all summer, and then my diesel mechanic friend was like "why don't you just put that engine in your boat". So now I am really thinking about it. With the dry exhaust set up of the Swain, it seem's relatively simple, and the price is right.      Thoughts?      I found old threads where Gordon Schnell mentions using a 98 1.9L VW Diesel.      I am building the 31 footer.     |
33259|33258|2016-01-31 01:32:41|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:22:50 -0500                             From:            mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Is it a real tdi or a td, if it is a tdi you will need to reconnect the computer if you install it in your boat, the td is mechanical 100%  more simple Martin  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 05:01:29 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta                                                       A friend is considering giving me her car. It is a '98 VW Jetta, TDI. The body of the car is beat up.    I was considering trying to put the engine from this car in my boat after using the car all summer, and then my diesel mechanic friend was like "why don't you just put that engine in your boat". So now I am really thinking about it. With the dry exhaust set up of the Swain, it seem's relatively simple, and the price is right.    Thoughts?    I found old threads where Gordon Schnell mentions using a 98 1.9L VW Diesel.    I am building the 31 footer.                                   		 	   		       |
33260|33258|2016-01-31 01:33:38|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            23 Jan 2016 05:32:00 -0800                             From:            musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                     It is a TDI from a 98 Jetta. It is not a 2.0 like I thought, but a 1.9L.    |
33261|33258|2016-01-31 01:34:24|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:42:53 -0500                             From:            mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Your can have a special mechanical fuel pump made to use on your tdi,then you would no longer need the computer, but it is a  $1100 Job Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 05:32:00 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta                                                      It is a TDI from a 98 Jetta. It is not a 2.0 like I thought, but a 1.9L.                                  		 	   		       |
33262|33258|2016-01-31 01:35:18|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            23 Jan 2016 06:08:10 -0800                             From:            musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Yeah, I found that. Bummer.     I also have access to an engine off of an 85 Jetta TD. Just came across in off an old beater. I believe this is the same one Gordon Schnell mentions using.     Does any one know the dimensions of this 1985 VW jetta engine? I need to make sure it will fit in my 31 footer before I try to get it.     |
33263|33258|2016-01-31 01:36:00|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:19:57 -0500                             From:            mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    If you have access to a vw engine, they are all of the same size ( 1998 and before)  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 06:08:10 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta                                                     Yeah, I found that. Bummer.   I also have access to an engine off of an 85 Jetta TD. Just came across in off an old beater. I believe this is the same one Gordon Schnell mentions using. Does any one know the dimensions of this 1985 VW jetta engine? I need to make sure it will fit in my 31 footer before I try to get it.                                  		 	   		       |
33264|33258|2016-01-31 01:36:47|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 07:27:06 -0700                             From:            Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    A 98 should be mechanical injector and pump with electronic control for timing. I believe it will be what they call an ALH engine.  This is different than the brm or pd motor which was 04.5 to 06 and the cr gen 1 which was 09-14. Note there are no 07 and 08's.   Sent from my iPad   > On Jan 23, 2016, at 6:32 AM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >  >  It is a TDI from a 98 Jetta. It is not a 2.0 like I thought, but a 1.9L. >  >        |
33265|33258|2016-01-31 01:37:56|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:44:38 -0500                             From:            mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    The 1998 is a AHU, the injectors are mechanical but the fuel pump has some electronics, I know bwcause I installed one in my VW Vanagon a few years ago, I had a mechanical fuel pump made on order for my engine using the parts from the tdi fuel pump and a mechanical fuel pump from a 1.9 td. The fuel pump from a 1.9 td wont work by itself on a tdi. Martin  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 07:27:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta                                                      A 98 should be mechanical injector and pump with electronic control for timing. I believe it will be what they call an ALH engine.  This is different than the brm or pd motor which was 04.5 to 06 and the cr gen 1 which was 09-14. Note there are no 07 and 08's.   Sent from my iPad  On Jan 23, 2016, at 6:32 AM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                                 It is a TDI from a 98 Jetta. It is not a 2.0 like I thought, but a 1.9L.                                                             		 	   		        |
33266|33258|2016-01-31 01:38:52|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:44:44 +0100                             From:            Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    A lot of those "small block" VW direct injection diesels under way, quite some of them built on the 1.9 liter 4 cylinder body, completed with and without turbochargers, and the charged ones with a whole lot of different chargers and ranging from 64 bhp with the first generation naturally aspirated cylinder-heads to roundabout 185 bhp with computerized widely varyable chargerblade-geometry, intercooled and with 4 Valves per cylinder gaining an η (eta) in the 40 %.  What might be interesting for You probably is getting rid of the sometimes quite problematic turbo part of those otherwise pretty reliable and economic engines and go back to the natural aspirated version, which have been available in some different versions as well from VW Marine (no marinised automotive-engines, but original marine versions directly by VW).  Some hints here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDI_(engine)  Quite a lot of the available heads were interchangeable with another lot of engine bodies, what lead to a myriad of versions and possible combinations.  I don't do VW engines other than my ownes, but I can recommend the naturally aspirated direct injecting engines as nearly undestroyable;  (250 000 to 350 000 km in hard working commercial cars without any problem, no oil consumption, compression rates still within manufacturer's variance, never ever opened or rebuilt, and that's not an exception but merely common, my most used one was a completely rusted down giveaway PickUp car with original 660 000 km, still running well without any oil consumption)   Only downside: there is a timing belt to be changed regularly, what might be difficult in the confined engine bay of a yacht.  So in my view, this sort of engine would well be worth even an 1100 $ injection pump conversion like estimated above, given everything You go on using is in good shape.  I don't know how many of those were sold in the U.S., but looking for an sdi head and pump would rid You of most of the usual problems coming with the computerized turbo charging while the bearings and con-rods and so on still are those "better" TDI-versions  - the sdi engines still have some electronic parts You can't do without, though.  This is not and won't become in any way a hand cranked decompressible prechamber diesel, ever.  Cheers G_B          Am 23.01.2016 um 14:32 schrieb musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]:   >  It is a TDI from a 98 Jetta. It is not a 2.0 like I thought, but a 1.9L. >  >         |
33267|33195|2016-01-31 01:39:50|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:49:24 +0100                             From:            Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Excellent advice from Giuseppe. I am no authority on diesels as such, but...  Diesels in general like loading (= good for boats)  and last ==  forever/long time when used. For small boats like these, mostly under 14 m/46 ft, any small diesel is  more than enough.  Most ice engines die from not being used in marine apps == rust.  600.000 km/80 KM/hr in car == 7500 hrs of use. Typical lifetime of (good/industrial/cared for) diesels is 20.000 -  50.000 hours.   On 23/01/2016 16:44, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...  [origamiboats] wrote:  > > A lot of those "small block" VW direct injection diesels under way,  > quite some of them built on the 1.9 liter 4 cylinder body, completed  > with and without turbochargers, and the charged ones with a whole lot  > of different chargers and ranging from 64 bhp with the first  > generation naturally aspirated cylinder-heads to roundabout 185 bhp  > with computerized widely varyable chargerblade-geometry, intercooled  > and with 4 Valves per cylinder gaining an η (eta) in the 40 %. > > > What might be interesting for You probably is getting rid of the  > sometimes quite problematic turbo part of those otherwise pretty  > reliable and economic engines and go back to the natural aspirated  > version, which have been available in some different versions as well  > from VW Marine (no marinised automotive-engines, but original marine  > versions directly by VW). > > Some hints here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDI_(engine)  > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDI_%28engine%29> > > Quite a lot of the available heads were interchangeable with another  > lot of engine bodies, what lead to a myriad of versions and possible  > combinations. > > I don't do VW engines other than my ownes, but I can recommend the  > naturally aspirated direct injecting engines as nearly undestroyable; > (250 000 to 350 000 km in hard working commercial cars without any  > problem, no oil consumption, compression rates still within  > manufacturer's variance, never ever opened or rebuilt, and that's not  > an exception but merely common, my most used one was a completely  > rusted down giveaway PickUp car with original 660 000 km, still  > running well without any oil consumption) > > Only downside: there is a timing belt to be changed regularly, what  > might be difficult in the confined engine bay of a yacht. > > So in my view, this sort of engine would well be worth even an 1100 $  > injection pump conversion like estimated above, given everything You  > go on using is in good shape. > > I don't know how many of those were sold in the U.S., but looking for  > an sdi head and pump would rid You of most of the usual problems  > coming with the computerized turbo charging while the bearings and  > con-rods and so on still are those "better" TDI-versions  - the sdi  > engines still have some electronic parts You can't do without, though. > > This is not and won't become in any way a hand cranked decompressible  > prechamber diesel, ever. > > Cheers G_B > > > > > > > > > Am 23.01.2016 um 14:32 schrieb musicasrevolution@...  > <mailto:musicasrevolution@...> [origamiboats]: > >>  It is a TDI from a 98 Jetta. It is not a 2.0 like I thought, but a 1.9L. >> > >    --  -hanermo (cnc designs)       |
33268|33195|2016-01-31 01:40:37|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            23 Jan 2016 12:53:33 -0800                             From:            opusnz@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    A 1.9 litre diesel is quite big for a 31 foot boat.   Will it fit?   Make sure you price out adaptor plates and gearboxes.   By the time you adapt a car engine to a boat, you might spend more money than you think.  You might find a used engine on ebay complete at a good price with so many people scrapping boats.  Personally, I wouldn't have any diesel on a boat that relies on electronics.   I would either modify it if I could or get an older used diesel from a tractor, bobcat or refridgerator unit.   I would aim for a Kubota or Isuzu, with my preference being a Kubota.   There are heaps of small Kubotas around and the parts are cheap.  It is what Nanni use in their marine diesels which are quality engines.  I believe Beta use them too.  http://www.nannidiesel.co.nz/categories/display/17 http://www.nannidiesel.co.nz/categories/display/17   If it was a larger boat around 40 or 50 feet, I would look at tractor engines again or the older naturally aspirated Nissan or Toyota diesels.   They are reliable and there are many of them around so parts shouldn't be a problem.  It would take a lot more research but I know quite a few have been put in boats here in NZ.  Paul    |
33269|33195|2016-01-31 01:41:39|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            RE: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:28:26 -0500                             From:            mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    When using the vw diesel you can use the bellhousing on the transmission from the vw jetta ( or Golf)cut it to the proper length and have an aluminium plate welded on to match the marine transmission bolt pattern. Martin  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 12:53:33 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                                                     A 1.9 litre diesel is quite big for a 31 foot boat.   Will it fit?   Make sure you price out adaptor plates and gearboxes.   By the time you adapt a car engine to a boat, you might spend more money than you think.  You might find a used engine on ebay complete at a good price with so many people scrapping boats.  Personally, I wouldn't have any diesel on a boat that relies on electronics.   I would either modify it if I could or get an older used diesel from a tractor, bobcat or refridgerator unit.   I would aim for a Kubota or Isuzu, with my preference being a Kubota.   There are heaps of small Kubotas around and the parts are cheap.  It is what Nanni use in their marine diesels which are quality engines.  I believe Beta use them too.  http://www.nannidiesel.co.nz/categories/display/17   If it was a larger boat around 40 or 50 feet, I would look at tractor engines again or the older naturally aspirated Nissan or Toyota diesels.   They are reliable and there are many of them around so parts shouldn't be a problem.  It would take a lot more research but I know quite a few have been put in boats here in NZ.  Paul                                  		 	   		       |
33270|33195|2016-01-31 01:42:43|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:49:58 +0100                             From:            Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Diesels like loading, while they don't like high revs (high piston speed).  Diesels last forever when NOT used like in cars.  Car-use means half of the time a lot of hectic accelleration, shifting up and down, high loads in the first four gears up to high revs (especially with tiny VW UTEs) and the other half of the runtime idling downtownwards for hours under next-to-no load at all - both together a nightmare for a Diesel.  Industrial use (or yacht use) in general means mid range revs, steadily powering a tractor, hydraulic pump of backhoe or loader, generating a welder, or might mean porpelling a yacht, all usually within the more economic range of the drive's bandwidth in a steady load situation.  Car diesels die from wear.  Yacht Diesels frequently die from   - neglect   - negligence  - disregard  - malpractice  Checking for enough oil in the morning would frequently need opening the screws of the companionway ...   Changing a timing belt or tightening a pump belt would need three to four right hands (and an additional left one...) of a pretty experienced gynaecologist, together with a bunch of the notorious stainless 72-step ratchets and three different articulating joints ...  Changing motor oil is either a bloody motherf**king mess, or done vastly incomplete by sucking some cleaner part of the oil through the checking tubule while leaving behind that part which really should come out in the first place, not to mention the greasy mess back in the gearbox ....  Leisure yacht builders put in the engine in a very early stage of the building process: by far more than half of the boat is built around the already placed engine, and a lot of boats need to be seriously cut open when an engine rebuild or another engine is needed.  When changing any automotive engine towards marine use, I'd recommend anyway placing any service needing device like thermostat, oil filter, various diesel filters (those highly pressurized direct-injecting engines being quite picky with diesel quality), water pump, any sort of belt driven generators and pumps, checking devices from dip stick to preheater fuses to probable goniometers for timing and anything else You need to fumble for from time to time AT ANY COST towards a big, easily opening door or hatch You can comfortably sit in front of - thus enabling a proper and frequent TLC for the little bugger which causes so much serious trouble if suddenly ceasing to work properly.  But still, the little VW direct jerkers are a reliable choice, as far as I'm concerned.  Mercedes grey iron prechamber dinosaurs are what a lot of people still prefer over here for leisure yacht use, but I think the tremendous efficency of those semi-modern (sdi) VW engines is well worth the little bit more technical equipement they come with.  Just to kick in another, even more efficient engine:  The late Smart 1 three cylinder CDI (Common Rail Injection) diesel does indeed have a full approval as aviation power plant for Ultra Light Planes over here.  A friend and ULP-reseller explained recently: the biggest problem with state-of-the-art automotive engines is NOT the electronic, but are the mere psychotic emission codes to meet for road homologation, freehandedly invented by solicitors, teachers and functionaries not willing to listen to any engineer any time.  Strip the -very unreliable- Smart one CDI car-engine radically off its unnerving Euro-5-Code devices, and voilà: one of the better, outstandingly economical and very reliable aviation power packs is born.  Probably for the VW sdi might apply the same ....  Cheers G_B         Am 23.01.2016 um 18:49 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]:   > Excellent advice from Giuseppe. > I am no authority on diesels as such, but... >  > Diesels in general like loading (= good for boats)  and last == forever/long time when used. > For small boats like these, mostly under 14 m/46 ft, any small diesel is more than enough. >  > Most ice engines die from not being used in marine apps == rust. >  > 600.000 km/80 KM/hr in car == 7500 hrs of use. > Typical lifetime of (good/industrial/cared for) diesels is 20.000 - 50.000 hours. >  >  >  >  >         |
33271|33195|2016-01-31 01:43:18|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sun, 24 Jan 2016 08:44:18 +0100                             From:            Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    I believe, somewhat, that its illegal both for the USA and the EU to  newly install any engine in a boat that does not comply with emissions  standards.  I think that boat manufacturers cannot do so for new builds, and the  same rules apply for people building their own. Old engines can still be used in old boats.  I think you cannot change the engine, but am not 100% sure. I also think this is not enforced, at the moment. However, the engine is defined/specified in the obligatory  documentation, so changing it will need a change in the docs..   On 23/01/2016 22:49, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...  [origamiboats] wrote:  > Strip the -very unreliable- Smart one CDI car-engine radically off its  > unnerving Euro-5-Code devices, and voilà: one of the better,  > outstandingly economical and very reliable aviation power packs is born. > > Probably for the VW sdi might apply the same .... > > Cheers G_B   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)    ------------------------------------  ------------------------------------  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------  Yahoo Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com      origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/       |
33272|33195|2016-01-31 01:44:00|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sun, 24 Jan 2016 09:40:11 -0800                             From:            Aethiopicus haidan@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Well lets not give some fucking pencil pushers the power to determine  what engine you can put in your own boat.  I don't particularity like the timing belt on those VW engines, other  than that I'm sure they're fine. Just a pain to replace the belt if it  brakes, hopefully no valve stems get shot through the valve cover in the  process. In the interest of saving money I would bet it's cheaper to get a  used/dead marinised engine and transmission together than replace the  engine (or not). Generally buying a transmission alone is going to cost  you 500-1000 bucks, then you need a adapter plate, you might be able to  find one that fits both the engine side ($300 or so) and the  transmission but more likely you have to get one of the two part ones,  which are a little more expensive. Also you'll need a drive/damper plate  which'll run a few hundred. I think you could find a dead engine from a  boat for a song and look around for an engine that would match the  adapter plate. And that way along with it you might get a wiring  harness, gauges, prop shaft and coupler maybe. There are a lot of  peripheral things to the engine that add up and if you're going to get  into it make sure you get in to it with the engine that you want.      |
33273|33195|2016-01-31 01:44:50|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Sun, 24 Jan 2016 19:36:32 +0100                             From:            Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Am 24.01.2016 um 18:40 schrieb Aethiopicus haidan@... [origamiboats]:   > Well lets not give some fucking pencil pushers the power to determine  > what engine you can put in your own boat. >   I second this.   > I don't particularity like the timing belt on those VW engines, other  > than that I'm sure they're fine. Just a pain to replace the belt if it  > brakes, hopefully no valve stems get shot through the valve cover in the  > process. >   You must not, in any case, wait till it breaks but change it maintenancewise after a certain number of hours, km-s or years, mandatorily;  (in fact it's four years or 1oo.ooo k's)  If it in deed breaks, the engine instantly turns into a mere heap of metal You  better get rid of without wasting more work on it other than ripping it out, for a proper refit would often involve a crankshaft, some rods, the camshaft together with  appendant bearings, head, pistons and valves of one or two combustion chambers  depending on the particular point of rotation it ripped at, and a whole lot of  very thorough measuring around in thousandths ... not to mention the fact that You  got to know WHAT to measure exactly.  It doesn't have to be cheaper to overhaul a marine-engine than marinising an automotive one you got for free, though - depends on how much You are able to build  for Your own in terms of welding, milling and generally adapting.   Well, not everybody is a Doug Jackson (SV.SEEKER).   But adapterplates for example aren't rocket science.     |
33274|33258|2016-01-31 01:45:54|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            24 Jan 2016 17:25:26 -0800                             From:            musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                     It is interesting to me how rapid the responses came, and how many there are, on the the topic of engines... versus other topics I've posted about.  Probs just gonna ditch the idea of using a VW engine.             |
33275|33258|2016-01-31 01:46:42|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            25 Jan 2016 15:30:37 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                        They are shorter  than the 10 hp air cooled diesel I took out of my boat. I considered one.A mechanic I know swears by them. He runs his at 20 hp, only opening it up in a big head sea. A water cold manifold is hard to find (but not essential) as is a bell housing. Other parts are easy to find. Could work well.    |
33276|33195|2016-01-31 01:47:47|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            25 Jan 2016 15:40:12 -0800                             From:            brentswain38@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                        No such laws in Canada, that I'm aware of. However, in Canada,  they would need a search warrant to come into your boat, and  for that, they would have to show  judge probable cause that a law  was being broken, and that can be challenged first     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :   I believe, somewhat, that its illegal both for the USA and the EU to   newly install any engine in a boat that does not comply with emissions   standards.    I think that boat manufacturers cannot do so for new builds, and the   same rules apply for people building their own.  Old engines can still be used in old boats.    I think you cannot change the engine, but am not 100% sure.  I also think this is not enforced, at the moment.  However, the engine is defined/specified in the obligatory   documentation, so changing it will need a change in the docs..      On 23/01/2016 22:49, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... mailto:giuseppe.bergman@...   [origamiboats] wrote:   > Strip the -very unreliable- Smart one CDI car-engine radically off its   > unnerving Euro-5-Code devices, and voilà: one of the better,   > outstandingly economical and very reliable aviation power packs is born.  >  > Probably for the VW sdi might apply the same ....  >  > Cheers G_B     --   -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33277|33195|2016-01-31 01:48:34|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:47:31 +0000 (UTC)                             From:            Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    You can put whatever you want in a home built boat, (Not that you should though) But there are places that restrict usage of different types of engines mostly lakes, limited the Co2 emissions to 4 stroke or electric.  I don't know of any saltwater limitations.           From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 2:40 PM  Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta              No such laws in Canada, that I'm aware of. However, in Canada,  they would need a search warrant to come into your boat, and  for that, they would have to show  judge probable cause that a law  was being broken, and that can be challenged first    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :  I believe, somewhat, that its illegal both for the USA and the EU to  newly install any engine in a boat that does not comply with emissions  standards.  I think that boat manufacturers cannot do so for new builds, and the  same rules apply for people building their own. Old engines can still be used in old boats.  I think you cannot change the engine, but am not 100% sure. I also think this is not enforced, at the moment. 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33278|33195|2016-01-31 01:49:19|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Tue, 26 Jan 2016 14:12:21 +0000 (UTC)                             From:            ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    I've not come across any references to this in the UK comics although I wouldn't put it past the EEC to slip something through and our idiots usually gold plate any EEC directives.Most of the stuff concerning Europe has been about red(reduced tax) diesel.Hopefully we will vote to leave the EEC when we get the chance later this year,although whether that will actually happen even if we do may be a moot point.I'm not going to hold my breath.Anyway,aren't VW having a little local difficulty on your side of the pond over exhaust emissions,so if officialdom gets involved they may be less sympathetic to anything VW,rather than say,Ford or GM.Incidentally, thinking of Ford,If anyone is thinking of using the old 1.6,or 1.8 diesel with a timing belt change the belt before using.They had a terrible reputation over here for breaking well inside the recommended change mileage and must have cost Ford a fortune in warranties.Probably not a bad idea on any Ohc diesel with a timing  belt because it makes a lovely mess of the engine if one breaks.Vauxhall did attempt to get round this by making the cam followers weak enough to break on the 1.7's but I don't know whether this worked in practise.I had one go on a 1.9 citroen and it shattered a 1.5" thick camchaft - probably sg iron rather than steel.I didn't investigate further and scrapped the car.BMC 1.5's were the British standard marine engine at one time,but they were a pushrod engine,not OhccheersAndy Airey     |
33279|33258|2016-01-31 01:50:23|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from  '98 Jetta|                                                              Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:06:36 -0700                             From:            Gordon Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Hi guys…Gord here. The engine I put in my BS40 is a 1.6L Turbo. No computer required. I set it up for the turbo but chose to try it w/o the turbo, thinking that stock HP would be sufficient. Adding the turbo requires about an hour. Gord  > On Jan 23, 2016, at 6:22 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >  >  > Is it a real tdi or a td, if it is a tdi you will need to reconnect the computer if you install it in your boat, the td is mechanical 100%  more simple >  > Martin >  > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 05:01:29 -0800 > Subject: [origamiboats] VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta >  >   >  >  A friend is considering giving me her car. It is a '98 VW Jetta, TDI. The body of the car is beat up. >  >  >  I was considering trying to put the engine from this car in my boat after using the car all summer, and then my diesel mechanic friend was like "why don't you just put that engine in your boat". So now I am really thinking about it. With the dry exhaust set up of the Swain, it seem's relatively simple, and the price is right. >  >  >  Thoughts? >  >  >  I found old threads where Gordon Schnell mentions using a 98 1.9L VW Diesel. >  >  >  I am building the 31 footer. >  >  >         |
33280|33195|2016-01-31 01:51:00|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            Re: [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:16:43 +0100                             From:            Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                                    Oh well, VW actually does have an adult bunch of probs on this side of the pond, too.  The Idea that officials might be less sympathetic with VW than other brands seems reasonable these days; on the other hand does this apply to non-technical pencil-sharpeners only, I'm afraid.  Every single engineer with the German TÃœV (our "roadworthy authority", kind of) I had to work with since "defeat device"-gate wasn't even slightly in doubt about VW still by far leading the flock in terms of diesel economy and reliability (and everybody seems to know that any other car manufacturer went similar ways on the road to homologation, for nowadays grime-fascism simply is not to meet without cheating, no matter if it's Mercedes or Dacia.)  In fact, most of them found it quite a clever idea to give the grime-fetishists in their test beds what they deserved while giving at the same time their customers an astonishingly economic car with state-of-the-art performance on the road.  The fact that a Jetta engine, swapped over to a Golf or Passat, not to mention to an Audi or Seat or Skoda, won't pass legal EU homologation (if You'd be stupid enough to ask for) because it's not any more in it's original home it was homologated for shows what this all is about: melonfarming.  More so as the very same engine actually IS used in the other brands and models of the VW concern, but with other lettering/typing, while the spares still have the very same OEM number to rid the parts people of having thirty different numbers for the very same sparepart.  So, fuck it and put in what You want, saltwater has no roads, and no roadworthyness either.  And Gord: did You use the direct injecting engine or the former prechamber version?  The direct injecting engine doesn't have a bowden-cable for the throttle, for example, the throttle is electrically moved by a step-motor, fed with data from a black box, which is fed itself by a bunch of data from temperatur to air-mass in the intake to turns per minute together with a lot of other crappy digital informational overkill ....  Tdi and sdi do work with pretty different black box data, so how did You solve this?   Cheers G_B        Am 26.01.2016 um 15:12 schrieb ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]:   >  > I've not come across any references to this in the UK comics although I wouldn't put it past the EEC to slip something through and our idiots usually gold plate any EEC directives.Most of the stuff concerning Europe has been about red(reduced tax) diesel.Hopefully we will vote to leave the EEC when we get the chance later this year,although whether that will actually happen even if we do may be a moot point.I'm not going to hold my breath.Anyway,aren't VW having a little local difficulty on your side of the pond over exhaust emissions,so if officialdom gets involved they may be less sympathetic to anything VW,rather than say,Ford or GM.Incidentally, thinking of Ford,If anyone is thinking of using the old 1.6,or 1.8 diesel with a timing belt change the belt before using.They had a terrible reputation over here for breaking well inside the recommended change mileage and must have cost Ford a fortune in warranties.Probably not a bad idea on any Ohc diesel with a timing bel  t because it makes a lovely mess of the engine if one breaks.Vauxhall did attempt to get round this by making the cam followers weak enough to break on the 1.7's but I don't know whether this worked in practise.I had one go on a 1.9 citroen and it shattered a 1.5" thick camchaft - probably sg iron rather than steel.I didn't investigate further and scrapped the car.BMC 1.5's were the British standard marine engine at one time,but they were a pushrod engine,not Ohc  > cheers > Andy Airey >  >         |
33281|33195|2016-01-31 01:51:31|Stephen Wandling|Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta|                                                         Subject:            [origamiboats] Re: VW 2.0lL TDI from '98 Jetta                             Date:            Wed, 27 Jan 2016 11:54:24 +0000 (UTC)                             From:            ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                             Reply-To:                      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                             To:            origamiboats@yahoogroups.com             <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                                    Although I've had more to do with Peugeot/Citroen 1.9's in recent years no way would I knock VW diesels.I had a very pleasant day last week using a VW Scirocco 2.0tdi as a chase car - I work intermittently for a car inspection/delivery firm - so it's now on my 'to buy when I win the lottery' list.My own transport falls squarely in the £100 banger class,although £100 bangers tend to cost £3-400 these days.cheersAndy Airey     |
33282|33226|2016-01-31 09:00:52|theboilerflue|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|I would make up a stainless plate with the stainless exhaust welded to it and bolt that to your transom. A large plate like ten inches or so, goop lots of silicone around the edge for all four inches or so extending from the exhaust, that way it's somewhat isolated too. Being able to take the exhaust pipe out to work on it is nice too so bolting it on would help.Outside of my boat after running for a long time you can reach down and hold the exhaust pipe where it turns and goes into the water, it's barely warm as it get splashed constantly from the exhaust bubbling around it.|
33289|33226|2016-02-05 18:18:10|brentswain38|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|If you have 1 1/2 inch pipe in about 8 inches of 2 inch pipe and high temp silicone between them, I think the chances of all the silicone coming out, or even a significant amount, are extremely remote.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <haidan@...> wrote :I would make up a stainless plate with the stainless exhaust welded to it and bolt that to your transom. A large plate like ten inches or so, goop lots of silicone around the edge for all four inches or so extending from the exhaust, that way it's somewhat isolated too. Being able to take the exhaust pipe out to work on it is nice too so bolting it on would help.Outside of my boat after running for a long time you can reach down and hold the exhaust pipe where it turns and goes into the water, it's barely warm as it get splashed constantly from the exhaust bubbling around it.|
33290|33226|2016-02-05 18:40:35|edward_stoneuk|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|Hi Darren,I have uploaded several photos most of which show the paint coming off our boat Fly, which I will explain on another post.  One photo shows the exhaust welded to a flange bolted to the transom, similar, I guess, to Haiden's.  I did it this way because I got the length of exhaust with the flap on it with the second hand engine.  I welded a two bolt flange to the inside end of the exhaust to bolt to the exhaust from the engine.  This required a big enough hole in the transom to thread the inside flange through so I had to weld a bigger flange to the exhaust pipe to cover the hole.  I used high temperature silicon to seal it and to stop differential corrosion between the mild and stainless steel.  It works OK but is perhaps more work than might be necessary.|
33291|33291|2016-02-05 19:36:44|edward_stoneuk|Zinga after one season|Hi All,I have uploaded some photos of the paint failures on our boat Fly after 7 months in the water.  The finish all over was Zinga on blasted plate and on the hull only a top coat of Zinga's Tarfree PU MIO.  Underwater the antifouling is International VC Offshore over the tarfree.  The stainless trim tab was painted with International Prop O Drev antifouling over Prop O Drev Primer.All the steel was sand blasted and painted with Zinga as made up parts such as the hull sides before welding together.  Where components welded inside deformed the outside  of the plate the damage was smoothed using an angle grinder. and repainted with Zinga.  We used sand as the owner of the property we did not want sharp abrasive contamination.Lessons learnt are-Sand blasting is better than grinding but probably not so good as using a sharp abrasive blast.Sandblasting inside a finished hull is a nightmare.  After a few seconds the hull is filled with dust and the operator cannot see a thing.  When we blasted inside the water tanks we had to stop and clean out the sand six times before we finished.Zinga is incompatible with the copper in antifouling and must be kept apart.  Any pinholes in the barrier coat, in this case the Zinga tarfree PU MIO will allow differential corrosion and damage the barrier coat.Stainless steel is incompatible with copper antifouling as can be seen in the patterns in the damaged antifouling coat and the severe pitting of the trim tab.The metal substrate must be well roughened and free from hydrocarbons and salt.  Zinga recommends alkaline cleaner for the former and Chlor Rid for the latter.Many paints are not suitable for topcoating  Zinga as their solvents weaken Zinga and it falls off.  A first mist coat is recommend when using Zinga's Tarfree.  This is difficult using a brush or roller.Zinga's advice in using their coatings has been revised since I first read them.Paint thickness is important.  I am advised that some of the damage may have been caused by the first topcoat being too thick or the top coat being to thin allowing pinholes.I have bought a Bristle Blaster to repair the damaged paint areas (breathtakingly expensive) and some paint thickness combs to measure the Wet Film Thickness. And some alkaline cleaner and some Chlor-Rid.Regards,Ted|
33292|33226|2016-02-06 13:01:27|Darren Bos|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                   Thanks Ted,           Can you tell me how long your exhaust run is and how many HP the     engine is?  It looks like there is a bit of soot, but it doesn't     look like the paint is discoloured or otherwise damaged from the     heat?          Thanks, Darren          On 16-02-05 03:40 PM,       tedstone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            Hi Darren,                                       I have uploaded several photos most of which show the               paint coming off our boat Fly, which I will explain on               another post.  One photo shows the exhaust welded to a               flange bolted to the transom, similar, I guess, to               Haiden's.  I did it this way because I got the length               of exhaust with the flap on it with the second hand               engine.  I welded a two bolt flange to the inside end of               the exhaust to bolt to the exhaust from the engine.  This               required a big enough hole in the transom to thread the               inside flange through so I had to weld a bigger flange to               the exhaust pipe to cover the hole.  I used high               temperature silicon to seal it and to stop differential               corrosion between the mild and stainless steel.  It works               OK but is perhaps more work than might be necessary.                                                                |
33293|33226|2016-02-06 13:18:36|Darren Bos|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                   You're probably right Brent, and if the outer pipe were led     vertically well above healed waterline I think I could be     comfortable with that.            I need to sit in the boat and compare whether to use Haiden and Teds     plate style mount or your tube within a tube idea is a better fit     for the space.  It does look like the tube within a tube could allow     for the exhaust to be let out very near or even below waterline,     which is attractive.  If I used the plate-style mount, I think I     would be more comfortable with it a bit further above waterline as     Ted shows.          Another idea, which I don't think I've seen here yet is to use a     smaller stainless tube welded within a larger stainless tube all     welded to a larger plate.  This is basically the arrangement often     seen on boats with Webasto heaters.  So if there is a concern about     temperatures at the hull, this is a way to keep the hull cooler and     would be easy to weld up.  The link below shows and example, I think     I would use heavier gauge materials.     http://www.suremarineservice.com/W002-109.aspx          Darren          On 16-02-05 03:18 PM,       brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                                                        If you have 1 1/2 inch pipe in about 8 inches of 2 inch               pipe and high temp silicone between them, I think the               chances of all the silicone coming out, or even a               significant amount, are extremely remote.                                                        ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com,               <haidan@...> wrote :                              I would make up a stainless                 plate with the stainless exhaust welded to it and bolt                 that to your transom. A large plate like ten inches or                 so, goop lots of silicone around the edge for all four                 inches or so extending from the exhaust, that way it's                 somewhat isolated too. Being able to take the exhaust                 pipe out to work on it is nice too so bolting it on                 would help.                 Outside of my boat after running for a long time you can                 reach down and hold the exhaust pipe where it turns and                 goes into the water, it's barely warm as it get splashed                 constantly from the exhaust bubbling around it.                                                                |
33294|33226|2016-02-07 19:40:50|brentswain38|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|It wouldn't be hard to run the outside pipe vertically to well above the waterline and still clear the deck inside enough for lots of insulation. That would mean  an elliptical hole thru the stainless on the transom|
33295|33226|2016-02-11 19:23:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|Hi Darren,I have uploaded a couple of photos of the exhaust during the build.  It is about 10' long and now is lagged with exhaust tape and has a perforated stainless shield around it on the straight section to  stop any thing falling on it from getting too hot.  The engine is 25hp. It is a Daihatsu Marine Diesel based on the 1 litre Daihatsu car engine.  It came from a ships lifeboat.  It was designed as a wet exhaust unit so it has a heat exchanger/header tank around the exhaust manifold.  I converted it to a dry exhaust. I should have cleaned the soot off before I took the photo!  When I was setting the engine up it was run for hours with only the alternator load so it oiled up a bit.    I had replaced the existing 35A alternator with a 70A alternator and at first it chewed up drive belts like a mad Labrador dog.  So I changed and cleaned pulleys and realigned them and tested them and so on.  When we got it in the water and ran it under load for some time and got it hot it burnt the oil out with an embarrassing amount of smoke.RegardsTed.  |
33296|33226|2016-02-11 22:49:38|Darren Bos|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|                   Thanks for the pics and information Ted.  It looks like you have a     modestly sized muffler and the exhaust is well above waterline.  How     have you found the noise?            Darren          On 16-02-11 04:23 PM,       tedstone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            Hi Darren,                                       I have uploaded a couple of photos of the exhaust during               the build.  It is about 10' long and now is lagged with               exhaust tape and has a perforated stainless shield around               it on the straight section to  stop any thing falling on               it from getting too hot.  The engine is 25hp. It is a               Daihatsu Marine Diesel based on the 1 litre Daihatsu car               engine.  It came from a ships lifeboat.  It was designed               as a wet exhaust unit so it has a heat exchanger/header               tank around the exhaust manifold.  I converted it to a dry               exhaust.                                        I should have cleaned the soot off before I took the               photo!  When I was setting the engine up it was run               for hours with only the alternator load so it oiled up a               bit.    I had replaced the existing 35A alternator with a               70A alternator and at first it chewed up drive belts like               a mad Labrador dog.  So I changed and cleaned pulleys and               realigned them and tested them and so on.  When we got it               in the water and ran it under load for some time and got               it hot it burnt the oil out with an embarrassing amount of               smoke.                                       Regards                                       Ted.                                                                  |
33297|33291|2016-02-12 14:40:09|brentswain38|Re: Zinga after one season|I have sandblasted the tank at the  back of the keel on a 36, by cutting a 6 inch by 12 inch hole at the bottom back corner, to let the sand out , then blasting the cut out piece and welding it back in, then blasting the weld. I couldn't have done it any other way. Don't hesitate to cut holes in low points to let the sand out, as the  welds have 100% the strength of the steel anyway.Black sand is easier to use inside, as it doesn't reflect the light I  have been leery about using zinc paint below the waterline, as   oxidation tends to creep behind the top coat. I have seen this on my  galvanized rudder,when the paint kept falling of in sheets, until the  zinc was all gone.Welded on zincs give you all the protection you need, below the waterlineI bought  $20 blaster for touch up. One hose goes in bucket of sand and the other on the air hose. I'm thinking of putting  a long screen on the pickup hose .Far easier and quicker  than chipping and grinding.  A sandblasted surface is far less likely to come back to haunt you.From now on, when doing my spring maintenance, I will rent a small compressor to enable me to blast any rust spots and chips .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <tedstone@...> wrote :Hi All,I have uploaded some photos of the paint failures on our boat Fly after 7 months in the water.  The finish all over was Zinga on blasted plate and on the hull only a top coat of Zinga's Tarfree PU MIO.  Underwater the antifouling is International VC Offshore over the tarfree.  The stainless trim tab was painted with International Prop O Drev antifouling over Prop O Drev Primer.All the steel was sand blasted and painted with Zinga as made up parts such as the hull sides before welding together.  Where components welded inside deformed the outside  of the plate the damage was smoothed using an angle grinder. and repainted with Zinga.  We used sand as the owner of the property we did not want sharp abrasive contamination.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Lessons learnt are-Sand blasting is better than grinding but probably not so good as using a sharp abrasive blast.Sandblasting inside a finished hull is a nightmare.  After a few seconds the hull is filled with dust and the operator cannot see a thing.  When we blasted inside the water tanks we had to stop and clean out the sand six times before we finished.Zinga is incompatible with the copper in antifouling and must be kept apart.  Any pinholes in the barrier coat, in this case the Zinga tarfree PU MIO will allow differential corrosion and damage the barrier coat.Stainless steel is incompatible with copper antifouling as can be seen in the patterns in the damaged antifouling coat and the severe pitting of the trim tab.The metal substrate must be well roughened and free from hydrocarbons and salt.  Zinga recommends alkaline cleaner for the former and Chlor Rid for the latter.Many paints are not suitable for topcoating  Zinga as their solvents weaken Zinga and it falls off.  A first mist coat is recommend when using Zinga's Tarfree.  This is difficult using a brush or roller.Zinga's advice in using their coatings has been revised since I first read them.Paint thickness is important.  I am advised that some of the damage may have been caused by the first topcoat being too thick or the top coat being to thin allowing pinholes.I have bought a Bristle Blaster to repair the damaged paint areas (breathtakingly expensive) and some paint thickness combs to measure the Wet Film Thickness. And some alkaline cleaner and some Chlor-Rid.Regards,Ted |
33298|33298|2016-02-14 12:02:54|smallboatvoyaguer|Building new mast head and boot| The mast I've got has cracks in the metal around where the fore-stay and back-stay attach to the top of the mast (the sheave box). The top of the mast is a separate unit that has been welded onto the top of the mast tube. Because of these cracks and the fact that the mast is from 1968 and all the fittings (mast head, spreaders) are suspect, I am considering cutting off the mast head and spreader mounts and fabricating a new masthead/sheave box and spreaders from stainless, like what is shown in the book.  Thoughts? My plan was to build the mast head separately and sleeve it over the top of the mast, slide the boot onto the bottom of the mast, and bolt the new spreaders onto the mast.  |
33299|33298|2016-02-14 15:51:53|Aaron|Re: Building new mast head and boot|Presumably you have an aluminum mast. Depending on how bad the cracks are you could be getting closer the a major fatigue failure and it might be wise to also look at finding or building a new mast. AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 8:02 AM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                        The mast I've got has cracks in the metal around where the fore-stay and back-stay attach to the top of the mast (the sheave box). The top of the mast is a separate unit that has been welded onto the top of the mast tube. Because of these cracks and the fact that the mast is from 1968 and all the fittings (mast head, spreaders) are suspect, I am considering cutting off the mast head and spreader mounts and fabricating a new masthead/sheave box and spreaders from stainless, like what is shown in the book.  Thoughts? My plan was to build the mast head separately and sleeve it over the top of the mast, slide the boot onto the bottom of the mast, and bolt the new spreaders onto the mast.                              |
33300|33298|2016-02-15 09:43:06|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Building new mast head and boot|The mast is fine. I'll post a photo when I get a chance, to clarify the situation.|
33301|33298|2016-02-15 14:36:51|opuspaul|Re: Building new mast head and boot|My mast was used when I got it and I put it up in 1992 on my 36 footer so it may be over 40 years old now.  It is all aluminum stay attachments built into an aluminum sheave box.  None of it has ever had any cracks.  If yours was cracked, I suspect it was probably the wrong alloy or was never built strong enough in the first place.  To give you an idea, the plates on mine are about 6 mm thick and doubled up.   The stays go between the plates with about 1 inch of alloy around every pin.  There are large SS straps that go to the pins which allow the room for fittings.I just make it from what you are comfortable.   Stainless steel or alloy is fine if it is built right.  The SS must be sealed or insulated from the alloy.    A SS pin corroding in a tight aluminum fitting creates a lot of pressure and can get incredibly tight.  Use bronze bushings between SS and any alum alloy for the sheave axles.  You won't be sorry.  I would grease everything up with something like Lanocote.   At the top of the mast, Lanocote will last years. |
33302|33298|2016-02-15 15:52:58|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Building new mast head and boot| Thanks for the tips!  The mast head looks like a cheap alloy compared to the rest of the mast. It looks as  if it was built and welded to the mast, and doesn't look like an original fitting. The rest of the mast looks to be made of a completely different aluminum.|
33304|33298|2016-02-15 17:30:58|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Building new mast head and boot|Aluminium usually used for mast profiles is some kind of wrought alloy, which typically isn't seawater resistant in the first place and though needs anodizing to become a mast for seawater use at all.A common mistake recurrently made is changing the layout and/or at least some significant points of the otherwise finished (= anodized) mast, thus weakening the anodic coating by drilling or even welding (with welds on already anodized surface additionally disturbing the microstructure extraordinarily, for anodized Aluminium does need particularly more energy to break up in a puddle under a welding arc and thus burning down the Aluminium texture below the surface).This completely different looking alloy of Your masthead might be a later added-on part without any anodizing treatment at all.You  might be able to save the mast by cutting and replacing the not yet anodized top end and anodizing it afterwards - as far as You'll find an anodizer ready to work with this sort of situation in his electrolytical oxidation baths.Aluminium isn't rocket science, but a bit more challenging than mild steel anyway.Use of heaps of lanolin ( aka wool fat ) when riveting or screwing into anodized Aluminium is mandatory.We sometimes found rivet holes or even selftapping-screws in booms looking like drilled only an hour ago after a decade, as long as enough lanolin was in the gap all the time. Am 15.02.2016 um 21:52 schrieb musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]:                           Thanks for the tips!  The mast head looks like a cheap alloy compared to the rest of the mast. It looks as  if it was built and welded to the mast, and doesn't look like an original fitting. The rest of the mast looks to be made of a completely different aluminum.                          |
33305|33298|2016-02-15 17:38:04|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Building new mast head and boot|... oh, and if You don't want to weld and anodize, You might be able to combine another -anodized- masttop and Your cut-free anodized mast-base with an inside collar and rivets like Yves Gelinas did it in the middle of nowhere after he broke his mast of "Jean-du-sud" while circumnavigating singlehanded under his Cape Horn selfsteering prototype. Cheers G_BAm 15.02.2016 um 21:52 schrieb musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]:                           Thanks for the tips!  The mast head looks like a cheap alloy compared to the rest of the mast. It looks as  if it was built and welded to the mast, and doesn't look like an original fitting. The rest of the mast looks to be made of a completely different aluminum.                          |
33306|33298|2016-02-15 17:44:55|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Building new mast head and boot|... That:s what I was referring to:http://www.alberg.ca/articles/dismasting-gelinas.pdfAm 15.02.2016 um 21:52 schrieb musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]:                           Thanks for the tips!  The mast head looks like a cheap alloy compared to the rest of the mast. It looks as  if it was built and welded to the mast, and doesn't look like an original fitting. The rest of the mast looks to be made of a completely different aluminum.                          |
33307|33298|2016-02-15 21:53:03|opuspaul|Re: Building new mast head and boot|Anodizing  is actually not as common on aluminum masts as one would think.   Very few mast companies have a dunk tank that big.  I don't know if it is true but I was told at one point that Isomat was the only one.   They use large castings with ball or T sockets on the ends of their stays which I really don't like.   Most masts are just cleaned and painted, like mine was.   6061 is a common alloy which is strong and doesn't corrode too badly.   I know of several people who have stripped the paint off their mast and just leave it as bare aluminum.  If there are no splices or welded tapers to hide, there is little point of painting them.   My friends masts on his ketch are over 30 years old. He has done about 70,000 miles in the tropics without a lick of anodizing or paint on them.   As long as SS doesn't contact the aluminum without any protection, the aluminum is fine. When paint is scratched the layer of paint can hold moisture and corrosion around the edges of the scratch and promote corrosion.  You will see the paint bubble and the aluminum will get pitted under the paint since it will never get flushed of salt and dry properly.  I know of a guy who ran a dive operation in Fiji and the first thing he did when he got a new dive tank was strip the paint off so the tank would last longer.  Cheers, Paul|
33308|33298|2016-02-15 22:27:31|opuspaul|Re: Building new mast head and boot|Good article.If the mast is a simple round or oval section, it is relatively easy to splice them.  My mast was used and suffered dents from compression of the spreaders.  I don't know if this was done sailing or handling in the boatyard but there has been more than one boat dismasted from high compression loads from the spreaders on a thin mast wall.   I think mine was actually dented by having too much aft load on the spreaders.   The forces are huge!   If the splice on an large aluminum mast is done at the spreaders, the extra thickness is an asset.   I deck stepped my  mast while the old mast was keel stepped  so I had several extra feet I could cut off the bottom.  I just took a section about 40 cm long, split it, spread it and slid it over the existing section.   I left gaps for the mast track.  Some tapping and screwing and some bedding compound and it formed in place to make a very strong splice.  The same could be done with a section slid inside and butt joints.   You can do the whole job with hand tools.  None of this is possible with a lot of fancy mast sections with molded in mast tracks.    For this reason, if I ever buy a new mast, I would go for a simple oval section with a riveted SS mast track.  It will be cheaper and in my mind, better.In the file section, there is a pdf called "Build Your Own Mast" that I posted years ago.   The article is excellent and shows how to do a splice in Part II.   Well worth a look.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :... That:s what I was referring to:http://www.alberg.ca/articles/dismasting-gelinas.pdf|
33309|33309|2016-02-16 05:58:00|gerd.finger|Stern Gland|Hy folks,my boat has an oil lubricated stern gland.Does anybody know which kind of (biodegradable?) oil I have to use?Cheers,Gerd|
33310|33309|2016-02-16 07:43:31|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Stern Gland|Usually You should stick with what Your supplier of the gland and shaft system requires in his specifications.A biodegradable alternative (used on drinking water reservoirs like Lake Konstanz or Tegernsee) might be this stuff:http://www.toplicht.de/de/shop/technik-fuer-die-maschinenanlage/fette-und-fettpresse/fette/fluid-film-gel-b-gleitfettNew gland and a thorough cleaning throughout required, doesn't mix with former mineral greases satisfactorily.You do have to be cautious, though, for some greases could promote pitting on Your shaft surface depending on the medium You use it with, like the upper Adriatic around Mestre and near the river Po for example isn't "seawater" for the most parts, but a mere chemical cocktail of some sort which deteriorates any submerged / regularly contaminated metal quicker than anywhere else I've been so far, even more so with less aggressive greases like lanolin.G_BAm 16.02.2016 um 11:57 schrieb gerd.finger@... [origamiboats]:                          Hy folks,my boat has an oil lubricated stern gland.Does anybody know which kind of (biodegradable?) oil I have to use?Cheers,Gerd                          |
33311|33298|2016-02-16 13:12:41|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Building new mast head and boot|The rectangular (rect. to the mast track) load peaks where spreaders sit usually are to much for the profile, especially for the flat side of oval sections in systems You tune by bending via backstay.Fancy complicated profiles or structural inserts originally built-in inside the raw profile before tapering are one way to cover this, other mast builders try to use enlarged baseplates for spreaders instead to spread the loads outside teh profile.Other material, other means, but we at least tripled or quadrupled the number of layers where spreader's loads went in when building heavy cruising masts in carbon prepreg, often adding some special directional aramide layers to further improve the impact capability of the profile, while (the particularly lighter) racer masts usually ceased to work properly in places where the spreader loads together with bending and torsion loads from sailing hard in shaky conditions peaked.Repair was cutting, inserting heavily structurized new sections with large overlapping areas to prevent recurring collapse of the profile and reglueing / tempering under vacuum, while regatta people do accept a lot of trial-and-error You don't want to bother with when cruising.Stayed masts, in contrary to simple unstayed cantilever systems, are pretty complicated systems of combined static and dynamic loads partly overlapping to astonishingly high peaks.So the mast, recently dented, might pretty much become a better mast (or a proper one, in the first place) anyway when being rebuilt in sections with collars to spread the load peaks from spreaders or terminals.Ah, well, and in terms of welded metal mast building, have a look at this guy's work:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vK1oE3cN-ICheers G_BAm 16.02.2016 um 04:27 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:                          Good article.If the mast is a simple round or oval section, it is relatively easy to splice them.  My mast was used and suffered dents from compression of the spreaders.  I don't know if this was done sailing or handling in the boatyard but there has been more than one boat dismasted from high compression loads from the spreaders on a thin mast wall.   I think mine was actually dented by having too much aft load on the spreaders.   The forces are huge!   If the splice on an large aluminum mast is done at the spreaders, the extra thickness is an asset.   I deck stepped my  mast while the old mast was keel stepped  so I had several extra feet I could cut off the bottom.  I just took a section about 40 cm long, split it, spread it and slid it over the existing section.   I left gaps for the mast track.  Some tapping and screwing and some bedding compound and it formed in place to make a very strong splice.  The same could be done with a section slid inside and butt joints.   You can do the whole job with hand tools.  None of this is possible with a lot of fancy mast sections with molded in mast tracks.    For this reason, if I ever buy a new mast, I would go for a simple oval section with a riveted SS mast track.  It will be cheaper and in my mind, better.In the file section, there is a pdf called "Build Your Own Mast" that I posted years ago.   The article is excellent and shows how to do a splice in Part II.   Well worth a look.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :... That:s what I was referring to:http://www.alberg.ca/articles/dismasting-gelinas.pdf                          |
33312|33298|2016-02-16 14:53:00|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Building new mast head and boot| So I'll build a mast head and boot and spreaders from stainless and isolate them from the mast, in some form or another. I think that is what is being said here?|
33313|33309|2016-02-16 17:50:24|brentswain38|Re: Stern Gland|Is tat Gerd from Hungary withe Yago project?|
33314|33298|2016-02-18 01:12:48|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Building new mast head and boot|It wasn't stainless for the new pole extension what I was referrin' to, I admit, but cutting, building a new top and spreaderbases and combining those with the still good part in one or the other way was pretty much it.People have done it, welding and riveting and repairing metal masts, that is, and went some considerable distances with their repaired/built masts, so it's mere a thing of how to get Your possibilities together, in terms of welding or riveting, cutting, glueing, pressing or anodizing.Good luck G_BAm 16.02.2016 um 20:52 schrieb musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]:                           So I'll build a mast head and boot and spreaders from stainless and isolate them from the mast, in some form or another. I think that is what is being said here?                          |
33315|33298|2016-02-18 12:55:00|theboilerflue|Re: Building new mast head and boot|That's what I did. A sleaved cap on the top, I built the sheave box so it fits on top of the mast just to get that extra 10". and you can seal it off that way too so the mast doesn't fill with water when things go sideways.One fuck up was the backstays come off the right off the box there and the headboard on my sail gets stuck between them on tacks, so it'd be better to build it with the backstay atachment point a couple inches back to allow room for the headboard.You can build the bottom shoe to fit the step nicely that way. Between the spreaders put a pipe through the mast so it can't compress the mast section. Build the lowers and inner stay fitting to bolt through the mast rather than hooking it onto one side of the mast|
33316|33298|2016-02-18 12:58:05|theboilerflue|Re: Building new mast head and boot|I cut the sheave from 3/4" UHMW with the biggest hole saw I could find. I couldn't find one that would span the whole mast so I ended up using two sets of large and small sheave. Halyards go up and over down the other side of the mast.|
33317|33226|2016-02-18 18:41:22|edward_stoneuk|Re: Dry exhaust outlet|Hi Darren,Outside the exhaust note is unobtrusive.  Inside, the engine is noisier than I had hoped for.  Most of the engine housing is lined with marine grade sound insulation, but there are some gaps and the hull transmits some noise.  Regards,Ted|
33318|33298|2016-02-18 18:45:39|opuspaul|Re: Building new mast head and boot|I agree with Haidan.   A bolt through the mast is a good way to attach shrounds.   My lowers and uppers are attached by big SS bolts that go right through the mast.  The mast has round doublers welded where the bolts go.   My uppers are located about 18 inches below the masthead sheave box.   The lowers are just below the spreaders.   The tangs are free to pivot and align with the stays and by using a large bolt, you never have to worry about small screws or bolts ripping out of a thin mast wall.  This was brought home to me a few years ago when I was in the Caribbean. I saw quite a few multihulls with cracked masts where they used the stupid ball and T joints which just hook through a hole in the mast with a SS plate.  It is easy to do and cheap but it is not nearly strong enough for long term offshore cruisers.The sheave box on my masthead has the forestay and back stay attachments project quite a way out.   The more clearance, the better.   As you say the mainsail headboard and roach needs clearance or the main get chafed and a roller furler should have some clearance as well.   You want to have lots of clearance between any fittings and the halyard exits or they will chafe.   My masthead uses two smaller (5 inch?) sheaves rather than one big sheave.   This might be more compact and easier build than a single large sheave.  The profile of the sheave should project out from the mast slightly with rounded entries so that you never have chafe on the halyard.  If you have ever changed a halyard at sea you will know what I mean.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <haidan@...> wrote :That's what I did. A sleaved cap on the top, I built the sheave box so it fits on top of the mast just to get that extra 10". and you can seal it off that way too so the mast doesn't fill with water when things go sideways.One fuck up was the backstays come off the right off the box there and the headboard on my sail gets stuck between them on tacks, so it'd be better to build it with the backstay atachment point a couple inches back to allow room for the headboard.You can build the bottom shoe to fit the step nicely that way. Between the spreaders put a pipe through the mast so it can't compress the mast section. Build the lowers and inner stay fitting to bolt through the mast rather than hooking it onto one side of the mast|
33319|33291|2016-02-18 18:48:36|edward_stoneuk|Re: Zinga after one season|Hi Brent,I wish that I had thought of cutting a hole in the bottom to let the sand out.  I must admit that I wouldn't put zinc paint under the water line again.Regards,Ted|
33320|33298|2016-02-18 19:43:56|brentswain38|Re: Building new mast head and boot|I have sometimes eliminated the headboard, or cut it down a bit..Slightly shorter  on the luff also works .|
33321|33321|2016-02-20 13:40:28|Alex Bar|Electric motor|Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex|
33322|33321|2016-02-20 14:22:29|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> In general, electric motors can be far easier to mount.  There are lots of Youtube videos showing mounting in cars.  For the same hp, they will almost certainly be smaller than a marine fuel engine.  No reversing transmission is needed, though gear or chain reduction might be useful.  There would generally be a lot less vibration in the driveline.  A compact, high power motor will require active cooling.  There are three main possibilities:    - An electric motor, lots of batteries and no combustion engine.  Here the power is possibly coming from solar or wind, or plugging into shore power.  In this one, you have no gas tank and probably are only running under motor power to get into and out of the channel/port/whatever, and are sailing nearly all of the rest of the time, even in light winds.   Maximum renewability, and realistically, way less details to worry about than a fuel engine.  Be careful of all of those batteries.  Proper commercial boat regulations would require those batteries to be in a battery room, with proper barriers between it and the rest of the ship.  These are important safety rules that small boat constructors ignore at their own risk.   Only a fool would sleep within the same volume as kilowatt hours of lithium batteries with no bulkhead and no separate venting to protect them.  Look at the car designs that use lithium batteries and how the batteries are encased.    - An electric motor, some batteries and a combustion engine with a generator:In this one, the engine may be small, and more flexibly mounted.  The batteries and electric motor provide high torque for short periods, the engine keeps everything charged over the long haul.  Forward and reverse on an electric motor is just two switches.  Speed control can be simple -- connect the motor to 1, 2, 3, or 4 batteries in series if it is DC 48V -- or far more complicated if it is AC.  An aircooled diesel on the afterdeck under a cover could simply a lot of things. This is a "serial" type hydrid.   - An electric motor, no batteries and a combustion engine with a generator and an electronic drive controller.   This provides the ability to mount the engine anywhere.   The electronic drive controller is the equivalent of a continuously variable transmission and infinite ratio torque converter -- the same reason why diesel-electric drive is used on locomotives.    Considering the fact one is just driving a prop, in water, the lack of a clutch or starting loading is not such an issue as with a locomotive.  So really, it is far more complication for the ability to mount the fuel engine anywhere.    Which were you considering?   All have been discussed on origami boats before.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:40:26 +0100Subject: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-988826483 .ygrps-yiv-988826483ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-988826483ecxad a { 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33323|33321|2016-02-20 15:32:37|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Electric motor|You might have a look at these peoples general offers, in terms of electric propulsion.http://www.magnet-motor.de/index.php?id=9%23content%23content%22%20and%20%288%3D8%20xor%204%3D4%29--%20a&L=1It definitely IS possible, while it is still a question of how far You want to go when it comes to either investing real money to buy other people's knowledge or investing quite some time to acquire your own knowledge.Diesel engines and parts for a shaftdrive, even some of the transmissions, are pretty cheap or even for free (plus some work and parts) if You know where to look for, and a lot of people do know how to maintain or repair those in any port or marina.Not so much for electric propulsion, modern batteries, controllers, regulators and so on.To date I wasn't able to find a sort of bullet proof budget "plug'n'play" solution I'd really recommend to my customers, some of them treehugging artist's and high potential investor's who'd really like to trim their sailing boats towards "all-green".A lot of those yachts are in real use only one or two, seldom three month a year and are lying around the rest of the time in high class marinas with diesel-morons for mechanics and reckless janitors for "maintenance" duties between owner's use of the yachts.It's one thing to get a neglected diesel back to life for a fourtnight or even another season, but a battery bank once thoroughly ruined won't come back not even for leaving port one last time.Same with electric motors, partly submerged with salty bilge liquid for some timeSame with electric wiring, in comparison to some diesel and coolant hoses You could blow through in no time.It definitely IS possible, and some reliable systems for hybrid use exist out there not only for cars and forklifts, but real electric-only solutions exist as well and are heavily used for lorries and loaders and complicated tunnel machinery below ground, in mines or tunnel sites with good success.Last not least those Magnet Motor people from above have developed a bunch of pretty amazing military hybrids based on their high torque motors, partly combined with nearly vibration-free, extremely efficient, superlight and tiny multi-fuel Wankel-generator units, but quite some of these systems and technologies I know of are regrettably still owned by the german Bundeswehr.So, You'd have to become Your own engineer, and You'd have to mostly build it for Your own, keep it up and in shape all year round for Your own and have to be able to repair or modify it without technological help from outside.Does this sound tempting?For me it would .... given I'd move aboard my selfbuilt origami.Cheers G_BAm 20.02.2016 um 19:40 schrieb Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]:                          Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex                          |
33324|33321|2016-02-20 19:25:19|brentswain38|Re: Electric motor|I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..|
33325|33321|2016-02-20 20:16:19|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} -->  >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet.. I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1987394359ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1987394359 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33326|33321|2016-02-20 22:59:12|Aaron|Re: Electric motor|If one really wanted to go with electric I would recommend they go to the electric boat group and spend a lot of time reading the research they have been doing. Be careful of the sales hype but there are a lot of great people there.Aaron       <b id="ygrps-yiv-1551561740yui_3_16_0_1_1456025060897_6238"><span id="ygrps-yiv-1551561740yui_3_16_0_1_1456025060897_6237" style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:16 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                          >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                 		 	   		                              #ygrps-yiv-1551561740 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370 --   #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1551561740 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1551561740 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1551561740 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1551561740 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370 #ygrps-yiv-1551561740yiv8047659370ygrp-mkp 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33327|33321|2016-02-20 23:12:39|Aaron|Re: Electric motor|Go here and look at price for there different size motors. I figured a 20kw for my BS36 to be safe with enough power to hold the boat in most any sea condition. cost the same as the 40 hp Mitsubishi diesel, Next would be a small generator, Then add batteries. Cost is way to high for now. All of the shops that sell complete units are close to the same for cost that I have found. Now a do it yourself project is is about 2/3rds the cost for the electric motor system, But you get to do all of the engineering, I am going with diesel, cost and batteries (fuel) are the reason.Products | Electric Yacht       Products | Electric Yacht48 Volt Systems H-Drive Sail 8.0  		  	  	Read More QuietTorqueâ„¢ 5.0  		 	$4,595.00  	  	Add to cart QuietTorqueâ„¢ 10.0  		 	$5,495.00  	  	Add to cart QuietTorqueâ„¢ ...View on www.electricyacht.comPreview by Yahoo        <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 6:56 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                       If one really wanted to go with electric I would recommend they go to the electric boat group and spend a lot of time reading the research they have been doing. Be careful of the sales hype but there are a lot of great people there.Aaron       <b id="ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192yui_3_16_0_1_1456025060897_6238"><span id="ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192yui_3_16_0_1_1456025060897_6237" style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:16 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                          >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                 		 	   		                                                            #ygrps-yiv-1280135538 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192 --   #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1280135538 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1280135538 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1280135538 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1280135538 #ygrps-yiv-1280135538yiv3769329192 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33328|33321|2016-02-21 01:48:41|Brian Stannard|Re: Electric motor|It's nothing to do with battery technology - with LiFePo4 that is not a problem, except price. The big problem is charging. With any available charging method your range is severely restricted. It works if you are at a marina to plug in every night or two, but not if you stay out for much longer. The only way around this is to add a generator, and one much larger than a Honda 2000. It would then work but you would have to listen to the generator for much longer than you would a conventional diesel. It would also be more expensive than a conventional diesel drive.One gallon of diesel equals 500 lbs of lead acid batteries. .  On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                If one really wanted to go with electric I would recommend they go to the electric boat group and spend a lot of time reading the research they have been doing. Be careful of the sales hype but there are a lot of great people there.Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:16 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                         >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                 		 	   		                                                                        -- CheersBrian  |
33329|33321|2016-02-21 02:21:22|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Electric motor|... oh, almost forgot to point You towards THESE people here:http://www.whisperprop.de/home/and these people, of course (the "mothership" of the whisper-prop branch):http://www.fischerpanda.de/They definitely do know what they offer in terms of generating and storing reliable power for yachts of nearly all sizes down to 38 or 40 feet.I built in some of their less integrated low end solutions in small sailing craft from 40 to 66 feet; engineering at its best, with an eye on distinctive maintainability already before they draw the first line on the first of their construction sheets - very satisfying still years after putting it in in the first place. When it comes to the money questions, though, Fischer Panda is more on the Bentley- or Bugatti-end of the range instead of the DIY-with-found-crap-end, I'm afraid.But still, their sites are vastly informative and full of inspirations - You get a picture of today's possibilities.And there still is THIS point to consider: numerous unknown wise men repeated to put it already like "a poor sailor simply can't afford to by cheap hardware" ...(... but has to learn to build the good stuff for his own, as we know ...)Cheers G_BAm 20.02.2016 um 19:40 schrieb Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]:                          Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex                          |
33330|33321|2016-02-21 06:06:36|Alex Bar|Re: Electric motor|If I have to find an alternative propulsion to a diesel engine I have to think to something practical, simple, with same power and good range at least. Then it would be nice if it was noise and vibration free, green, small.The first solution has no autonomy.The other two solutions require an additional combustion engine, so it's like to get back to a diesel conventional engine.Am I wrong?Where are the advantages?Alex2016-02-20 20:22 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                  In general, electric motors can be far easier to mount.  There are lots of Youtube videos showing mounting in cars.  For the same hp, they will almost certainly be smaller than a marine fuel engine.  No reversing transmission is needed, though gear or chain reduction might be useful.  There would generally be a lot less vibration in the driveline.  A compact, high power motor will require active cooling.  There are three main possibilities:    - An electric motor, lots of batteries and no combustion engine.  Here the power is possibly coming from solar or wind, or plugging into shore power.  In this one, you have no gas tank and probably are only running under motor power to get into and out of the channel/port/whatever, and are sailing nearly all of the rest of the time, even in light winds.   Maximum renewability, and realistically, way less details to worry about than a fuel engine.  Be careful of all of those batteries.  Proper commercial boat regulations would require those batteries to be in a battery room, with proper barriers between it and the rest of the ship.  These are important safety rules that small boat constructors ignore at their own risk.   Only a fool would sleep within the same volume as kilowatt hours of lithium batteries with no bulkhead and no separate venting to protect them.  Look at the car designs that use lithium batteries and how the batteries are encased.    - An electric motor, some batteries and a combustion engine with a generator:In this one, the engine may be small, and more flexibly mounted.  The batteries and electric motor provide high torque for short periods, the engine keeps everything charged over the long haul.  Forward and reverse on an electric motor is just two switches.  Speed control can be simple -- connect the motor to 1, 2, 3, or 4 batteries in series if it is DC 48V -- or far more complicated if it is AC.  An aircooled diesel on the afterdeck under a cover could simply a lot of things. This is a "serial" type hydrid.   - An electric motor, no batteries and a combustion engine with a generator and an electronic drive controller.   This provides the ability to mount the engine anywhere.   The electronic drive controller is the equivalent of a continuously variable transmission and infinite ratio torque converter -- the same reason why diesel-electric drive is used on locomotives.    Considering the fact one is just driving a prop, in water, the lack of a clutch or starting loading is not such an issue as with a locomotive.  So really, it is far more complication for the ability to mount the fuel engine anywhere.    Which were you considering?   All have been discussed on origami boats before.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:40:26 +0100Subject: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex                                  		 	   		                                           |
33331|33321|2016-02-21 06:08:05|Alex Bar|Re: Electric motor|Not at all! Not for me, I'm not an ingeneer...:-)Alex2016-02-20 21:32 GMT+01:00 Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                You might have a look at these peoples general offers, in terms of electric propulsion.http://www.magnet-motor.de/index.php?id=9%23content%23content%22%20and%20%288%3D8%20xor%204%3D4%29--%20a&L=1It definitely IS possible, while it is still a question of how far You want to go when it comes to either investing real money to buy other people's knowledge or investing quite some time to acquire your own knowledge.Diesel engines and parts for a shaftdrive, even some of the transmissions, are pretty cheap or even for free (plus some work and parts) if You know where to look for, and a lot of people do know how to maintain or repair those in any port or marina.Not so much for electric propulsion, modern batteries, controllers, regulators and so on.To date I wasn't able to find a sort of bullet proof budget "plug'n'play" solution I'd really recommend to my customers, some of them treehugging artist's and high potential investor's who'd really like to trim their sailing boats towards "all-green".A lot of those yachts are in real use only one or two, seldom three month a year and are lying around the rest of the time in high class marinas with diesel-morons for mechanics and reckless janitors for "maintenance" duties between owner's use of the yachts.It's one thing to get a neglected diesel back to life for a fourtnight or even another season, but a battery bank once thoroughly ruined won't come back not even for leaving port one last time.Same with electric motors, partly submerged with salty bilge liquid for some timeSame with electric wiring, in comparison to some diesel and coolant hoses You could blow through in no time.It definitely IS possible, and some reliable systems for hybrid use exist out there not only for cars and forklifts, but real electric-only solutions exist as well and are heavily used for lorries and loaders and complicated tunnel machinery below ground, in mines or tunnel sites with good success.Last not least those Magnet Motor people from above have developed a bunch of pretty amazing military hybrids based on their high torque motors, partly combined with nearly vibration-free, extremely efficient, superlight and tiny multi-fuel Wankel-generator units, but quite some of these systems and technologies I know of are regrettably still owned by the german Bundeswehr.So, You'd have to become Your own engineer, and You'd have to mostly build it for Your own, keep it up and in shape all year round for Your own and have to be able to repair or modify it without technological help from outside.Does this sound tempting?For me it would .... given I'd move aboard my selfbuilt origami.Cheers G_BAm 20.02.2016 um 19:40 schrieb Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]:                         Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex                                                                  |
33332|33321|2016-02-21 06:14:05|Alex Bar|Re: Electric motor|I can't see the point. Let say I have no money problems, why should I have to choose an electric motor if I also have to install a combustion mounted separately?Alex2016-02-21 5:09 GMT+01:00 Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                Go here and look at price for there different size motors. I figured a 20kw for my BS36 to be safe with enough power to hold the boat in most any sea condition. cost the same as the 40 hp Mitsubishi diesel, Next would be a small generator, Then add batteries. Cost is way to high for now. All of the shops that sell complete units are close to the same for cost that I have found. Now a do it yourself project is is about 2/3rds the cost for the electric motor system, But you get to do all of the engineering, I am going with diesel, cost and batteries (fuel) are the reason.Products | Electric Yacht       Products | Electric Yacht48 Volt Systems H-Drive Sail 8.0  		  	  	Read More QuietTorque™ 5.0  		 	$4,595.00  	  	Add to cart QuietTorque™ 10.0  		 	$5,495.00  	  	Add to cart QuietTorque™ ...View on www.electricyacht.comPreview by Yahoo        <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 6:56 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                       If one really wanted to go with electric I would recommend they go to the electric boat group and spend a lot of time reading the research they have been doing. Be careful of the sales hype but there are a lot of great people there.Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:16 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                         >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                 		 	   		                                                                                                       |
33333|33321|2016-02-21 06:15:53|Alex Bar|Re: Electric motor|I suspect this is the answer...no way.Alex2016-02-21 7:48 GMT+01:00 Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                It's nothing to do with battery technology - with LiFePo4 that is not a problem, except price. The big problem is charging. With any available charging method your range is severely restricted. It works if you are at a marina to plug in every night or two, but not if you stay out for much longer. The only way around this is to add a generator, and one much larger than a Honda 2000. It would then work but you would have to listen to the generator for much longer than you would a conventional diesel. It would also be more expensive than a conventional diesel drive.One gallon of diesel equals 500 lbs of lead acid batteries. . On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                If one really wanted to go with electric I would recommend they go to the electric boat group and spend a lot of time reading the research they have been doing. Be careful of the sales hype but there are a lot of great people there.Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:16 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                         >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                 		 	   		                                                                        -- CheersBrian                                          |
33334|33321|2016-02-21 06:42:55|Hannu Venermo|Re: Electric motor|                   Its efficiency of money.     60 l of diesel == 450 kg of batteries, 90 kWh, at around 16000$     cost, today. (Tesla.1000 /wk being sold, 100k in use.)          Cost will drop to == 100$/kWh by 2017/2019.     To == 60$/kWh around 2020/2022.     The above tech/cost curve is definitely going to happen, and is     happening already.          About 20 new techs/companies may significantly improve this, and     change the balance, but failing success of any of them, this is     where we are today.     There are more than 5 lab proofs.     Some are solid state batteries, lithium-air batteries,     supercapacitors, and others.          Lithium batteries get about half the cost or twice the power every     4-6 years.     This will happen, absolutely, at least 3-5 more times.          The first 1-2 developments are already in testing and preproduction,     so the 100$/kWh is already a 98%-9% certainity.     If not from one company then another.          A full-electric motor-only (no sails) cruising yacht, needs about     1-2 MWh.     One will be practical in about 5-6 years.          Within 6-8 years they will be cheaper than internal combustion     systems, and will quickly replace all internal-combustion systems,     imho.               On 21/02/2016 12:15, Alex Bar       alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                           I suspect this is the answer...no way.                              Alex                                                       --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33335|33321|2016-02-21 09:00:33|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Electric motor|I think this is becoming a real possibility. Lots of electric cars are hitting the roads and getting wrecked out there. By using the motor and batteries from one of these cars you cut the cost substantially. On a boat you could add 3 or 4 sets of batteries and really get some range. 2012 Nissan Leaf Drive System Tabletop Demo                             2012 Nissan Leaf Drive System Tabletop Demo   Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OBHiTLkANc Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCOi19S71W4 Build thread o...              View on www.youtube.com              Preview by Yahoo              I am actually more interested in using the motor from an EREV (extended range electric vehicle). These have a built in generator that comes on automatically when the batteries drop below a set level. The Chevy Volt is a popular example with more coming out every year. Too bad there aren't any diesel version out. Someone taking on one of these conversions needs to be well versed in handling high voltages and that may be its biggest downside. The packs in these cars are 366 Volts nominal. They also have a 12 volt system that is fed by the larger battery by a DC to DC converter so standard voltage marine accessories can be used. Add an inverter and you have a 120v system with huge power storage and generation potential. The EREV drivetrain is versatile enough that you can force the generator to run whenever you want. With this flexibility you could motor in and out of the dock area on quiet electric power, then switch to burning gas until you caught the wind you need. Range would only be limited by the size of your fuel tank. The low end torque these motors make is incredible too. It wouldn't take much to power even a large boat.   |
33336|33321|2016-02-21 09:39:24|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Electric motor|Am 21.02.2016 um 12:14 schrieb Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]:                          I can't see the point. Let say I have no money problems, why should I have to choose an electric motor if I also have to install a combustion mounted separately?AlexThe answer to this question might be greenwashing:Quite some fulltime cruisers do- rent out berths or- offer complete touristic arrangements and- take a lot of money for those offers.People ready to pay a 25.000,- €uro for a "modern classic" per week for 5 to 6 guests in Nioulargue season do expect three showers a day each, supplied by a multi-liter watermaker in need of a lot of power.They also do expect thoroughly cooled/iced drinks, bottomless icecubes around the clock and quite some differently arranged food fife times a day, usually brought with them in a freezer - not to mention the lactose intawlerant, the vegan fish-eaters, the vegan fishfree gluten-intawlerant size-half-zero trophy-girls in pressing need of special leftwardly tuned freshwater and so on ... thus some more electrical power needed.You do have to supply to this sort of customers definitely 24/7 wireless internet, some sort of games to play and the one or other electrical gadget in addition to the electricity sucking crap they bring for their own, from I-phone to I-Pad to PowerBook - all adding to Your daily needs.Going in places otherwise known for their charmingly balmy climate, You do have to supply aircon in any rented out cabin, for sure - still adding to Your power needs.So, having two big and a medium backup genset running together with a huge batterybank anyway, to enable You to deliver anything from 12 V dc to 240 V ac anytime, You could well place the same 48 V dc high torque engine You already sport for Your side-thrusters one more time inline (or besides with a belt) of Your shaft and go in and out the marble bathroom marinas in any given direction surprisingly quiet, thus "green".This sort of greenwashing is the top end of the market as I know it.But there are some good other (technical) reasons for hybrid besides greenwashing marketing:Taking electrical energy out of a genset running on top of the efficiency curve and using this electricity to propel a boat with 1/2 the hull-speed is definitely pretty much more efficient and treats Your combustion engine way better than using a 75 kw 2.5 Liter Diesel to propel the very same boat with the very same speed, consuming an eigth of its power, slightly over idling revs.So why don't You put in a smaller Diesel?  Because You want to be able to go upriver in falling tide to reach Your lock in time once or twice a month, which You simply can't with a smaller Oilburner.And going by Diesel only, You still have to produce the electricity of Your daily need in one or the other way:Solar works great in the lower latitudes - with frugal people on small boats, or with advanced systems on large boats, and doesn't really work for example at all in the German Nordsee or the Baltic, thus latitudes in the fifties; too little energy density to really rely on up there, alltime cloudy even if it should indeed stop raining for some hours in a row, so simply to dark up there.Wind ... well, a friend put it like "You will seek the place with the best shelter to throw Your hook, won't You? So don't rely on Your wind blunger when anchoring, just don't!"Landside plugs ... Yes, they are included in a lot of the marble bathroom marinas - as are the marble-bathroom-marina neighbors and the marble-bathroom-marina prices - not to mention their managing staff, a pretty good reason to turn away from sailing towards mountain climbing instead.Bottom Line:Depends on what You want to realize, and under what budget. You might land somewhere between reclaimed-plywood Wharram under two stroke outboard and "aluminium modern classic hybrid".And we still didn't even touch the reclaimed, recently totalled Toyota Prius from the scrapyard, delivering some of the best proven allday hybrid technologies You can get for next to no money these days...|
33337|33321|2016-02-21 10:02:55|Hannu Venermo|Re: Electric motor|Absolutely. In 3-4 years, there will be more batteries, of more capacity, and prices  will be a lot lower.  Someone did, btw, cut up a Tesla 90 kW or so battery, and picture  document it all online. Its not a big deal, and is about as dangerous as playing with any  industrial stuff, electrical/hydraulic/machine tools/etc.  IE really dangerous with finger-pokee mehtods, but not so much if you  have some skills/training/care/tools/experience.    On 21/02/2016 15:00, ckhaun@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I think this is becoming a real possibility. Lots of electric cars are  > hitting the roads and getting wrecked out there. By using the motor  > and batteries from one of these cars you cut the cost substantially.  > On a boat you could add 3 or 4 sets of batteries and really get some  > range.   --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33338|33321|2016-02-21 12:15:44|Brian Stannard|Re: Electric motor|No, you're not wrong. If you want range it has to be a conventional diesel. On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                If I have to find an alternative propulsion to a diesel engine I have to think to something practical, simple, with same power and good range at least. Then it would be nice if it was noise and vibration free, green, small.The first solution has no autonomy.The other two solutions require an additional combustion engine, so it's like to get back to a diesel conventional engine.Am I wrong?Where are the advantages?Alex2016-02-20 20:22 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:   <u></u>                                                  In general, electric motors can be far easier to mount.  There are lots of Youtube videos showing mounting in cars.  For the same hp, they will almost certainly be smaller than a marine fuel engine.  No reversing transmission is needed, though gear or chain reduction might be useful.  There would generally be a lot less vibration in the driveline.  A compact, high power motor will require active cooling.  There are three main possibilities:    - An electric motor, lots of batteries and no combustion engine.  Here the power is possibly coming from solar or wind, or plugging into shore power.  In this one, you have no gas tank and probably are only running under motor power to get into and out of the channel/port/whatever, and are sailing nearly all of the rest of the time, even in light winds.   Maximum renewability, and realistically, way less details to worry about than a fuel engine.  Be careful of all of those batteries.  Proper commercial boat regulations would require those batteries to be in a battery room, with proper barriers between it and the rest of the ship.  These are important safety rules that small boat constructors ignore at their own risk.   Only a fool would sleep within the same volume as kilowatt hours of lithium batteries with no bulkhead and no separate venting to protect them.  Look at the car designs that use lithium batteries and how the batteries are encased.    - An electric motor, some batteries and a combustion engine with a generator:In this one, the engine may be small, and more flexibly mounted.  The batteries and electric motor provide high torque for short periods, the engine keeps everything charged over the long haul.  Forward and reverse on an electric motor is just two switches.  Speed control can be simple -- connect the motor to 1, 2, 3, or 4 batteries in series if it is DC 48V -- or far more complicated if it is AC.  An aircooled diesel on the afterdeck under a cover could simply a lot of things. This is a "serial" type hydrid.   - An electric motor, no batteries and a combustion engine with a generator and an electronic drive controller.   This provides the ability to mount the engine anywhere.   The electronic drive controller is the equivalent of a continuously variable transmission and infinite ratio torque converter -- the same reason why diesel-electric drive is used on locomotives.    Considering the fact one is just driving a prop, in water, the lack of a clutch or starting loading is not such an issue as with a locomotive.  So really, it is far more complication for the ability to mount the fuel engine anywhere.    Which were you considering?   All have been discussed on origami boats before.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:40:26 +0100Subject: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   Does anybody know about the real possibility to install an electric motor instead of a diesel one? Alex                                  		 	   		                                                                                  -- CheersBrian  |
33339|33321|2016-02-21 12:22:18|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} -->  >One gallon of diesel equals 500 lbs of lead acid batteries. .  I am surprised it is only 500 lbs.   I US gallon is 3.22 kg.  The energy density is typically more than 40 MJ/kg, so that is 129 MJ which is 35kWh.   But diesels are only about 50% efficient, 50% of the energy in the fuel is waste heat (gasoline engines are worse), so only about 17.5kWh of shaft work is realized.   Electric systems are far more efficient, 90% is easily attainable, 95% is possible.   Using 80% efficient for a reasonably well done home-built system, that means the batteries must contain 22kWh of electricity.   I have seen figures between 30 and 50 Wh/kg for lead acid batteries.  Lets assume 40 Wh/kg.  That would mean about 550 kg of batteries per gallon of diesel, or in round figures, 500kg / gallon.   A chart on this page gives some figures for energy densities for various storage.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_densityIt would be interesting to calculate, for the average life of a durable dacron sail in the UV-soaked trade wind zones, what is the effective energy storage for a sail in MJ/kg.  Travel-path direction (the leeway is good here) thrust force in Newtons (pounds * 4.44 N/lb) * speed in meters/second, that is the power being imparted on the water.  Now multiply by 3600 s/hr * 24 hr/day * 365 days/year * years of sail life / mass of the sail in kg.   Any guesses?    From the price of the sail in new condition, one could compare the price of sails over their lifetime to the price of diesel, not forgetting the 50% efficiency loss of diesel engines, and assuming a good prop.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 22:48:40 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   It's nothing to do with battery technology - with LiFePo4 that is not a problem, except price. The big problem is charging. With any available charging method your range is severely restricted. It works if you are at a marina to plug in every night or two, but not if you stay out for much longer. The only way around this is to add a generator, and one much larger than a Honda 2000. It would then work but you would have to listen to the generator for much longer than you would a conventional diesel. It would also be more expensive than a conventional diesel drive.One gallon of diesel equals 500 lbs of lead acid batteries. .  On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                If one really wanted to go with electric I would recommend they go to the electric boat group and spend a lot of time reading the research they have been doing. Be careful of the sales hype but there are a lot of great people there.Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:16 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                         >Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..I disagree that it has anything to do with technology in this application.  It is certainly a cost and engineering issue but we are not talking about electric airplanes where weight, volume, balance and everything else are complexly related and limited, pushing for the best technology batteries possible.  A boat can always be made bigger to accommodate more low-tech batteries.   Batteries are like cargo space.  It was established long ago that bigger boats are more energy efficient per unit of cargo space, therefore, if the cargo is batteries, a bigger boat can go further or faster.  There is no limit to how big and heavy a boat can be made.  An electric supertanker could potentially circle the world on a single charge, faster than sailboat with a diesel.   Practically speaking... If one were going to build a bigger boat, would one want to fill the extra space with batteries?  Or something else?   No, fuel is just so much more energy dense, and therefore more practical, given the practical limits of budget and size.   Having your ultimate energy storage in a fuel tank is far more efficient, though hybrid has advantages.  Think low-tech.  Even bad firewood still contains double or triple the energy density of bleeding edge batteries, and it is dirty cheap.  Scrap wood floats for a long time when submerged in seawater, can be re-dried and burned.  It cannot either spontaneously catch fire, explode or leak out to contaminate your bilge, food and water.  It will not make your boat stink like sulfur or a refinery.  It can be stored on deck in a net, it does not require a leak-proof container.  If you loose it who cares, there is more wood to be found on most any beach.     Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:25:18 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   I once woke up to find a guy with an electric motor anchored behind me, on his way to Alaska.When I asked him how far he could go on a full charge, he said it depended on how much wind he had ,to power the wind generators and  give some sail assist. He said in a flat calm, 20 miles  was the best he could do.  That wouldn't get you out of Juan de Fuca on a single charge, and there are no safe places to anchor en route. They may work in in areas of of super dependable trade winds , like the West Indies, or Vanuatu, but in areas of light,  unreliable  winds, they would be impractical. Battery technology is just not sufficiently advanced to make them practical; yet..                                 		 	   		                                                                        -- CheersBrian                                  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 .ygrps-yiv-1243936344ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1243936344ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1243936344 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33340|33321|2016-02-21 12:34:02|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I have already moved to scrap-yard car batteries for my off-grid solar.   One can test them and pick them to make sure they have at least 50% life still in them, and at $20 each one cannot beat the price.  Then when they are totally dead, return them for $10 back.   Pretty soon the scrap yards are going to have more high-tech batteries in them a-plenty, and putting together a good string will be quite economical.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:02:55 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Electric motor                                                   Absolutely. In 3-4 years, there will be more batteries, of more capacity, and prices  will be a lot lower.  Someone did, btw, cut up a Tesla 90 kW or so battery, and picture  document it all online. Its not a big deal, and is about as dangerous as playing with any  industrial stuff, electrical/hydraulic/machine tools/etc.  IE really dangerous with finger-pokee mehtods, but not so much if you  have some skills/training/care/tools/experience.   On 21/02/2016 15:00, ckhaun@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I think this is becoming a real possibility. Lots of electric cars are  > hitting the roads and getting wrecked out there. By using the motor  > and batteries from one of these cars you cut the cost substantially.  > On a boat you could add 3 or 4 sets of batteries and really get some  > range.   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                                  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 .ygrps-yiv-1588514612ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1588514612ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1588514612 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33341|33321|2016-02-21 16:15:10|brentswain38|Re: Electric motor|Then there is the consideration that batteries have a limited life, are easy to screw up, and have to  be bought all over again, after a few years. Add that to your long term electric motor costs.|
33342|33321|2016-02-22 04:58:29|fmdepiolenc|Re: Electric motor|With a combustion engine separate from the propeller shaft, it can be run at constant speed at its very best efficiency, while the electric motor delivers the power at variable speed. You should get longer engine life and better fuel economy. Elimination of the transmission and reverse gear is another advantage. Add a small "buffer" battery and you can generate for a brief time more than the engine's rated power to get out of a jam.|
33343|33321|2016-02-22 11:11:10|theboilerflue|Re: Electric motor|I think you have to change the way you use your power if you're going to go electric. Basically you're engineless - you sail. If you can get 6-12 hours of engine power that's great but you're going to have to use it sparingly. You can have a whole bunch of solar, and a wind gen and those combined in the right connditions could really fucking pump some juice into your batteries but unless the sun is shinning and you can cruise in flat water using just the power coming in off the solar it's kinda unrealistic to expect to motor for hours and hours. If it's winding then you're sailing anyway - you've a sailboat, get a big mast so you can move in light airs.I would love to have an electric propolsion system, it'd be awesome for when you're just not gonna make it around that point and you wanna cheat for just a second to clear it - fucking great. But I think planning to be able to just electro-pulse you're self along for hours and hours just isn't going to happen, not for any resonable cost and I personally don't think one should think of that if they've a diesel engine either. I don't know how much money you have but I generally would rather put my money into my boat or at least some part of it thats not the fuel tank.|
33344|33321|2016-02-22 14:42:05|brentswain38|Re: Electric motor|I spent three years on my last boat without an engine, including a trip to Tahiti and back to BC. Glad I did because learned a lot I would have never learned otherwise.I remeber the stress of drifting towards a surf pounded reef , sculling frantically ,with not a breath of wind. Having been there, done that, there is no way I would ever want to go back to limited, or zero  range under power. I remember sitting in a cove, wanting to go north with not  a breath of wind on the surface while clouds shot by like bullets, driven by a 40 knot wind above.On may trips to Haida Gwai I would never have made it, in any reasonable time, without  a diesel. Drops your stress level drastically, and thus greatly improves the pleasure of relaxed, worry free  cruising, as does knowing you can get by if the engine quits..|
33345|33321|2016-02-22 16:56:21|opuspaul|Re: Electric motor|Brent, good post.  I have never sailed engineless to Tahiti and back but have had similar experiences.  I crewed on a boat from Tahiti to Canada and we got caught in the Pacific high north of Hawaii and then our engine quit.   We then spent 12 days in one spot.  We only went 75 miles in one week.   My engine quit near an island in Fiji once in flat calm.   I managed to get it going again in about half an hour but another half hour and the current would have taken us on to the reef.  I can't imagine sailing up and down the BC coast without an engine.   I know some have done it but they certainly can't be on any schedule.   The passes, strong currents and light winds are a killer.   Many restricted and narrow channels are illegal without an engine.The engineless boats don't have nearly as much fun, often skipping the best spots.   I saw a guy in a Vancouver 27 sail back and forth for 3 days, waiting for the wind and current to drop so that he could get into Suvarov in the northern Cook Islands.   He eventually gave up and missed out on one of the most magic islands in the world.  I have sailed around Viti Levu and Vanua Levu in Fiji several times within the reef.  I would never do it without an engine and to me, this is what Fiji is all about.    I met a guy from Canada who had an engine but his boat was so fat (Roberts Spray) that he couldn't motor into a head wind.   He got within 50 miles of NZ and then the wind turned 25-30 knots from the SW and drove him off.  Instead of being nicely tucked into harbor and enjoying the sights, he thrashed around offshore and got hammered for the next two weeks.   What would have been a good trip turned into a real hardship when he got low on supplies.   He was a candidate for the loony bin when he finally arrived.   The engineless boats usually tuck in to a major harbor and are then too scared to go anywhere.  I have towed many of them in and out of the harbors while they fretted about the reefs yet they later wrote about doing it on their own or bragged about being engineless.   Many of them finally give up and borrow or end up using low range outboards with large amounts of dangerous gasoline stored on board while still saying they cruise without an engine.   IMO, 90% of them live in a dream land and their stories have lead far too many cruisers astray.  Finally, sticking to the subject, electric drive is talked about often but after doing a bit of research, I would never have it.  It has no range and is far too expensive for a long term cruiser.   It only makes sense to me if I was returning to a marina every night and could make do with a shore plug and no generator.    Solar panels and wind generators don't cut it.  If you have to buy a big generator, you might as well just have a diesel and have a much simpler and lower cost boat.Cheers, Paul|
33346|33321|2016-02-23 19:58:23|Darren Bos|Re: Electric motor|                   I'm repowering and spent a lot of time investigating electric power     systems.  In the end I concluded what others have stated.  For a     reasonable battery bank size (even LiFePO4) you can expect not much     more than six hours under power (and even that will be well below     hull speed).  As others have said, right now you could use electric     if you essentially assume you are engineless and save it for only in     and out of harbour, light motorsailing (this would be the best part     of electric and I'm sad I couldn't get it) and for emergency use for     short periods of time.  Also, solar charging isn't going to happen,     most boats have limited real estate for panels and most of that will     be eaten up by you house loads (I assume anyone spending big bucks     on electric power system would also have things like     refrigeration).  As for wind, you could maybe get some battery     charging for the power bank from wind, but you then you need to     anchor in windy areas.  Remember, most wind generators are     generating power on the scale of watts, while your electric motor is     going to consume power on the scale of kilowatts.  So after motoring     for four to six hours you will need several days of windy conditions     to recharge.            I'm a self proclaimed tree hugger, but in the end I concluded that     only diesel made sense.  You could build a nice hybrid electric     system that would work well, but at two or three times the cost for     equivalent performance of a modern diesel.  If you want to be green,     buy biodiesel.  If you want to be independent, fill the diesel tank     and use motoring sparingly.          $0.02     Darren          On 16-02-20 10:40 AM, Alex Bar       alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                           Does anybody know about the real possibility to                 install an electric motor instead of a diesel one?                               Alex                                                                |
33347|33321|2016-02-23 23:20:32|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-557841478 .ygrps-yiv-557841478hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-557841478 .ygrps-yiv-557841478hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} -->  >If you want to be green,      buy biodiesel.Careful of biodiesel.  Being an organic based oil, it is potentially subject to polymerization on heating, like linseed oil.  Mineral diesel cannot do this.  This difference is of no importance on a perfectly functioning engine.  If you have a turbocharger with an oil-cooled center bearing, then this will likely be the hottest point in the oil system, where polymerization will happen the fastest.  If you have a tiny fuel leak into the oil system, as it passes through the turbo, you will have curds of black goo forming in the oil.  Each time the oil goes through the turbo, it will polymerize more.  The curds smell and feel like the residue that forms on a cookie sheet that is used to cook french fries in the oven.  It is just as gummy, rubbery, almost shellac-like in the limit and really difficult to get off.  Even a few drops of fuel in the oil can become a problem.   A cup full in the oil and after a while you have a cup full of curds.  Eventually they will gum up the entire engine.Absolutely in agreement with your comments on electric.   If one had a really big cat, that would provide more real-estate for panels, but still, 10kW is 40 panels and at least $10,000 DIY installed, and 10kW is not much of an engine.  As Darren point out, that is assuming one does not use electricity for anything else.  I use electric propulsion, only for my side-thruster.  I would never be without it, and it is 100% solar powered... but it only runs about 1 minute at a time.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:58:20 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                              I'm repowering and spent a lot of time investigating electric power     systems.  In the end I concluded what others have stated.  For a     reasonable battery bank size (even LiFePO4) you can expect not much     more than six hours under power (and even that will be well below     hull speed).  As others have said, right now you could use electric     if you essentially assume you are engineless and save it for only in     and out of harbour, light motorsailing (this would be the best part     of electric and I'm sad I couldn't get it) and for emergency use for     short periods of time.  Also, solar charging isn't going to happen,     most boats have limited real estate for panels and most of that will     be eaten up by you house loads (I assume anyone spending big bucks     on electric power system would also have things like     refrigeration).  As for wind, you could maybe get some battery     charging for the power bank from wind, but you then you need to     anchor in windy areas.  Remember, most wind generators are     generating power on the scale of watts, while your electric motor is     going to consume power on the scale of kilowatts.  So after motoring     for four to six hours you will need several days of windy conditions     to recharge.            I'm a self proclaimed tree hugger, but in the end I concluded that     only diesel made sense.  You could build a nice hybrid electric     system that would work well, but at two or three times the cost for     equivalent performance of a modern diesel.  If you want to be green,     buy biodiesel.  If you want to be independent, fill the diesel tank     and use motoring sparingly.          $0.02     Darren          On 16-02-20 10:40 AM, Alex Bar       alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                           Does anybody know about the real possibility to                 install an electric motor instead of a diesel one?                               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33348|33321|2016-02-24 03:50:35|Hannu Venermo|Re: Electric motor|Well, ... Engines are used only 1-5% of the time.  If you have a big battery, even solar-only would be practical. At 10 kW charge, and say 5%, you could have 200 kWhr capacity. In actual practice engine use == 1% or much less. Plenty to run even a big boat.  Battery cost for major capacity is the only limiting factor. Technologically, its not hard to do.  I myself would start with a 90 kW battery from a trashed electric car.  Hopefully, some day soon I can ...  On 24/02/2016 05:20, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]  wrote:  > Absolutely in agreement with your comments on electric.   If one had a  > really big cat, that would provide more real-estate for panels, but  > still, 10kW is 40 panels and at least $10,000 DIY installed, and 10kW  > is not much of an engine.  As Darren point out, that is assuming one  > does not use electricity for anything else.  I use electric  > propulsion, only for my side-thruster.  I would never be without it,  > and it is 100% solar powered... but it only runs about 1 minute at a  > time. > > Matt   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)|
33349|33321|2016-02-24 07:59:04|fmdepiolenc|Re: Electric motor|Biodiesel will not polymerize. All functional groups are alcohols. Some pure vegetable oils can, but once transformed into biodiesel they can't.Getting back to electrics, battery/electric probably won't work for most boat owners, but it makes very good sense to use electric transmission from a combustion engine to the propeller. Rapid "throttle" response, instant reversing are obvious advantages, and if you add a SMALL buffer battery you can briefly exceed the output of your combustion engine to get out of a jam. You also eliminate the cost, weight and bulk of a mechanical transmission and clutch, and the maintenance of it.Marc de Piolenc|
33350|33321|2016-02-24 11:16:43|Darren Bos|Re: Electric motor|The problem is that you are talking about average engine use and that is  not how engines are used.  Maybe for a racer that only powers in and out  of his slip your numbers would work, but for a cruising boat when you  need to motor you often need to do that for a long period of time.  With  this kind of use you will find that battery bank capacity puts a  significant limit on power-cruising range and that it will take a long  time to recharge the battery bank using any combination of renewable  energy (wind, solar).  Most boats could probably squeeze in 500Watts of  solar, so your daily power in a fairly sunny local might be 400watts x 6  hours = 2400WHr.  Unless you anchor out in the open in a trade-wind  local, your wind in the anchorage will be somewhere below 20 knots and  some of the time there will be no wind, so lets say 10 knots.  At 10  knots you could generate maybe 20 watts x 24hrs = 480 Whr.  So, a  realistic average charging rate with a lot of solar and one wind  generator is roughly 3kWhr.  If you have to motor for 10 hours at 10kW  (this is only about 40NM distance, see below), it would then take you  more than three days to recharge your battery.  If you do this for two  days your battery will be dead (don't forget you should be derating that  battery capacity).  Even these recharging estimates are too rosy,  because they don't account for house loads.  Most cruisers with modest  energy demands find that 500 Watts of solar meets their house demands,  but not with much surplus.  So, you really are looking at something more  like a week to recharge after ten hours of motoring.  Also, 10kW is not much power.  As you said, you need a big boat to store  the battery in, yet you won't have much power for that boat. It might be  easier to talk about it if we specified a boat.  Even for a 39 footer, a  10 kW motor is going to be on the low power side compared to diesel.  A  10kW motor would only drive a 39' (32' wl, 29000lb) boat at about 4  knots full out, maybe a little better if you could put on a very big  prop.  If you have to power head on to wind and waves, you won't be  making much if any progress (although this also depends as much on the  prop as it does the power available).  All this is fine, as long as you accept them as limitations of the  electric power system.  For the same size, less weight, and lower cost  you could install a diesel engine that would drive the boat near hull  speed and have some reserve power if things get hairy. I'm not saying I  don't think electric is a good idea, it is just that you are going to  have to give up either speed or range or both compared to a diesel  engine.  For some folks this is worthwhile.  I really would like the  ability to silently motor and especially silently motor-sail.  I also  really like the idea of no oil changes, fuel filters and other  engine-related tinkering.  However, for my current plans and electric  power system just couldn't check all the boxes.  I think I could have  achieved the power and range I wanted with an electric propulsion system  AND a diesel generator, but the cost was going to be a lot more than  just a diesel engine.  Darren   On 16-02-24 12:50 AM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Well, ... > Engines are used only 1-5% of the time. > > If you have a big battery, even solar-only would be practical. > At 10 kW charge, and say 5%, you could have 200 kWhr capacity. > In actual practice engine use == 1% or much less. > Plenty to run even a big boat. > > Battery cost for major capacity is the only limiting factor. > Technologically, its not hard to do. > > I myself would start with a 90 kW battery from a trashed electric car. > > Hopefully, some day soon I can ... > > On 24/02/2016 05:20, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] > wrote: >> Absolutely in agreement with your comments on electric.   If one had a >> really big cat, that would provide more real-estate for panels, but >> still, 10kW is 40 panels and at least $10,000 DIY installed, and 10kW >> is not much of an engine.  As Darren point out, that is assuming one >> does not use electricity for anything else.  I use electric >> propulsion, only for my side-thruster.  I would never be without it, >> and it is 100% solar powered... but it only runs about 1 minute at a >> time. >> >> Matt |
33351|33321|2016-02-24 14:33:50|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Biodiesel can polymerize even after the triclyceride structures are transformed into 3 methyl esters and one glycerol.  This reference explains the chemistry of making biodiesel, where the oil they start with in their diagrams is a fully saturated oil -- this is not necessarily the case in the manufacture of biodiesel, and biodiesel from vegetable oils are usually unstaturated.  Unsaturated means, there are carbon-to-carbon double bonds, the structure is hydrogen-poor.   https://www.goshen.edu/academics/chemistry/biodiesel/chemistry-of/It is the unsaturated oils (triclycerides) that support polymerization, not at the radical group end but at the double bonds mid-structure.  The same polymerization is used to make (linseed) oil based paint dry, and it is the same polymerization that is happening in spontaneous combustion of rags soaked in vegetable oil: "The double bonds of the unsaturated acids in the oil react with oxygen in air and with one another to form a polymeric network..."  from: http://firesciencereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3Cleaving off the glycerol and putting a methyl ester radical on the end does not make the oil saturated.  Certainly if one goes to the pain of the extra step and fully hydrogenates the oil, that is different, but that is not how it comes from the plant.  That is the chemistry.  Please accept in addition to the chemistry that I have seen this with my own eyes, it is real, and devastating to an engine.   Not all biodiesel is based on unsaturated oils.   Not all batches will have an unsaturated oil included in the raw materials.   Some batches might be more susceptible to the problem.   But please accept, it can happen. Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 04:59:04 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Electric motor                                                   Biodiesel will not polymerize. All functional groups are alcohols. Some pure vegetable oils can, but once transformed into biodiesel they can't.Getting back to electrics, battery/electric probably won't work for most boat owners, but it makes very good sense to use electric transmission from a combustion engine to the propeller. Rapid "throttle" response, instant reversing are obvious advantages, and if you add a SMALL buffer battery you can briefly exceed the output of your combustion engine to get out of a jam. You also eliminate the cost, weight and bulk of a mechanical transmission and clutch, and the maintenance of it.Marc de Piolenc                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-851072745 .ygrps-yiv-851072745ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-851072745ecxad p { }  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33352|33321|2016-02-24 15:04:42|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-150375749 .ygrps-yiv-150375749hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-150375749 .ygrps-yiv-150375749hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Darren wrote... > knots you could generate maybe 20 watts x 24hrs = 480 Whr.  So, a > realistic average charging rate with a lot of solar and one wind > generator is roughly 3kWhr.  If you have to motor for 10 hours at 10kW > (this is only about 40NM distance, see below), it would then take you > more than three days to recharge your battery.   Sorry, 10 hours x 10kW is 100kWh, not 10kWh.  If you are assuming charging at 3kWh / day, then you will need *33 days* of sun to recover from motoring 40nm, not 3 days.  That is why I speculated about a catamaran with 40 panels (not 2) for a total of 10kW (not 500W).  Each 250W panel is about 1 meter by 1.5m, so one needs 60 square meters of deck to mount that.   With 40 x 250W panels, one could motor continuously at noon, at 10kW, which is like what, 13 hp, or one could anchor for 2 days and recharge a 100kWh battery bank.  Without many kW of panels, one would be waiting more than a week to recharge.   Again, with a DIY install, one is still looking at $1000/kW for panels.   How much is a brand-new diesel install?  Still, if one has access to food and water, there is no way at all for one to create a few gallons of diesel in a week out of ocean water, so, ultimately many kW of panels provides more ultimate independence, if you have a lot of patience.   Many kW of solar panels are not going to fit on a BS single hull in any case.  13hp is not going to drive a single hull large enough to mount 40 solar panels.  40 solar panels are going to weigh about 1.5 tons (depending on model), and putting that on your deck will provide more anti-stability than a big diesel below the water line adds to stability. It is easier just to have a low-tech gigantic diesel tank, until the day  that sail material itself is made to be photo-voltaic.   Matt    > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 08:16:40 -0800> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor> > The problem is that you are talking about average engine use and that is > not how engines are used.  Maybe for a racer that only powers in and out > of his slip your numbers would work, but for a cruising boat when you > need to motor you often need to do that for a long period of time.  With > this kind of use you will find that battery bank capacity puts a > significant limit on power-cruising range and that it will take a long > time to recharge the battery bank using any combination of renewable > energy (wind, solar).  Most boats could probably squeeze in 500Watts of > solar, so your daily power in a fairly sunny local might be 400watts x 6 > hours = 2400WHr.  Unless you anchor out in the open in a trade-wind > local, your wind in the anchorage will be somewhere below 20 knots and > some of the time there will be no wind, so lets say 10 knots.  At 10 > knots you could generate maybe 20 watts x 24hrs = 480 Whr.  So, a > realistic average charging rate with a lot of solar and one wind > generator is roughly 3kWhr.  If you have to motor for 10 hours at 10kW > (this is only about 40NM distance, see below), it would then take you > more than three days to recharge your battery.  If you do this for two > days your battery will be dead (don't forget you should be derating that > battery capacity).  Even these recharging estimates are too rosy, > because they don't account for house loads.  Most cruisers with modest > energy demands find that 500 Watts of solar meets their house demands, > but not with much surplus.  So, you really are looking at something more > like a week to recharge after ten hours of motoring.> > Also, 10kW is not much power.  As you said, you need a big boat to store > the battery in, yet you won't have much power for that boat. It might be > easier to talk about it if we specified a boat.  Even for a 39 footer, a > 10 kW motor is going to be on the low power side compared to diesel.  A > 10kW motor would only drive a 39' (32' wl, 29000lb) boat at about 4 > knots full out, maybe a little better if you could put on a very big > prop.  If you have to power head on to wind and waves, you won't be > making much if any progress (although this also depends as much on the > prop as it does the power available).> > All this is fine, as long as you accept them as limitations of the > electric power system.  For the same size, less weight, and lower cost > you could install a diesel engine that would drive the boat near hull > speed and have some reserve power if things get hairy. I'm not saying I > don't think electric is a good idea, it is just that you are going to > have to give up either speed or range or both compared to a diesel > engine.  For some folks this is worthwhile.  I really would like the > ability to silently motor and especially silently motor-sail.  I also > really like the idea of no oil changes, fuel filters and other > engine-related tinkering.  However, for my current plans and electric > power system just couldn't check all the boxes.  I think I could have > achieved the power and range I wanted with an electric propulsion system > AND a diesel generator, but the cost was going to be a lot more than > just a diesel engine.> > Darren> > On 16-02-24 12:50 AM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:> > Well, ...> > Engines are used only 1-5% of the time.> >> > If you have a big battery, even solar-only would be practical.> > At 10 kW charge, and say 5%, you could have 200 kWhr capacity.> > In actual practice engine use == 1% or much less.> > Plenty to run even a big boat.> >> > Battery cost for major capacity is the only limiting factor.> > Technologically, its not hard to do.> >> > I myself would start with a 90 kW battery from a trashed electric car.> >> > Hopefully, some day soon I can ...> >> > On 24/02/2016 05:20, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]> > wrote:> >> Absolutely in agreement with your comments on electric.   If one had a> >> really big cat, that would provide more real-estate for panels, but> >> still, 10kW is 40 panels and at least $10,000 DIY installed, and 10kW> >> is not much of an engine.  As Darren point out, that is assuming one> >> does not use electricity for anything else.  I use electric> >> propulsion, only for my side-thruster.  I would never be without it,> >> and it is 100% solar powered... but it only runs about 1 minute at a> >> time.> >>> >> Matt> > > > ------------------------------------> > ------------------------------------> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> ------------------------------------> > Yahoo Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/> > <*> Your email settings:>     Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join>     (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:>     origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:>     origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:>     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>   		 	   		   |
33353|33321|2016-02-24 22:44:09|Darren Bos|Re: Electric motor|                    That's what I get for doing maths on only one cup of coffee.          A brand new 50hp diesel is around $15K Canuck.          Thanks Matt,     Darren          On 16-02-24 12:04 PM, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                      Darren wrote...               > knots you could generate maybe 20 watts x 24hrs = 480               Whr. So, a                > realistic average charging rate with a lot of solar               and one wind                > generator is roughly 3kWhr. If you have to motor for               10 hours at 10kW                > (this is only about 40NM distance, see below), it               would then take you                > more than three days to recharge your battery.                               Sorry, 10 hours x 10kW is 100kWh, not 10kWh.  If you are               assuming charging at 3kWh / day, then you will need *33               days* of sun to recover from motoring 40nm, not 3 days.                                That is why I speculated about a catamaran with 40 panels               (not 2) for a total of 10kW (not 500W).  Each 250W panel               is about 1 meter by 1.5m, so one needs 60 square meters of               deck to mount that.   With 40 x 250W panels, one could               motor continuously at noon, at 10kW, which is like what,               13 hp, or one could anchor for 2 days and recharge a               100kWh battery bank.  Without many kW of panels, one would               be waiting more than a week to recharge.   Again, with a               DIY install, one is still looking at $1000/kW for               panels.   How much is a brand-new diesel install?  Still,               if one has access to food and water, there is no way at               all for one to create a few gallons of diesel in a week               out of ocean water, so, ultimately many kW of panels               provides more ultimate independence, if you have a lot of               patience.   Many kW of solar panels are not going to fit               on a BS single hull in any case.  13hp is not going to               drive a single hull large enough to mount 40 solar               panels.  40 solar panels are going to weigh about 1.5 tons               (depending on model), and putting that on your deck will               provide more anti-stability than a big diesel below the               water line adds to stability.                               It is easier just to have a low-tech gigantic diesel tank,               until the day that sail material itself is made to be               photo-voltaic.                                 Matt                                                              > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 08:16:40 -0800                 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor                 >                  > The problem is that you are talking about average                 engine use and that is                  > not how engines are used. Maybe for a racer that                 only powers in and out                  > of his slip your numbers would work, but for a                 cruising boat when you                  > need to motor you often need to do that for a long                 period of time. With                  > this kind of use you will find that battery bank                 capacity puts a                  > significant limit on power-cruising range and that                 it will take a long                  > time to recharge the battery bank using any                 combination of renewable                  > energy (wind, solar). Most boats could probably                 squeeze in 500Watts of                  > solar, so your daily power in a fairly sunny local                 might be 400watts x 6                  > hours = 2400WHr. Unless you anchor out in the open                 in a trade-wind                  > local, your wind in the anchorage will be somewhere                 below 20 knots and                  > some of the time there will be no wind, so lets say                 10 knots. At 10                  > knots you could generate maybe 20 watts x 24hrs =                 480 Whr. So, a                  > realistic average charging rate with a lot of solar                 and one wind                  > generator is roughly 3kWhr. If you have to motor                 for 10 hours at 10kW                  > (this is only about 40NM distance, see below), it                 would then take you                  > more than three days to recharge your battery. If                 you do this for two                  > days your battery will be dead (don't forget you                 should be derating that                  > battery capacity). Even these recharging estimates                 are too rosy,                  > because they don't account for house loads. Most                 cruisers with modest                  > energy demands find that 500 Watts of solar meets                 their house demands,                  > but not with much surplus. So, you really are                 looking at something more                  > like a week to recharge after ten hours of                 motoring.                 >                  > Also, 10kW is not much power. As you said, you need                 a big boat to store                  > the battery in, yet you won't have much power for                 that boat. It might be                  > easier to talk about it if we specified a boat.                 Even for a 39 footer, a                  > 10 kW motor is going to be on the low power side                 compared to diesel. A                  > 10kW motor would only drive a 39' (32' wl, 29000lb)                 boat at about 4                  > knots full out, maybe a little better if you could                 put on a very big                  > prop. If you have to power head on to wind and                 waves, you won't be                  > making much if any progress (although this also                 depends as much on the                  > prop as it does the power available).                 >                  > All this is fine, as long as you accept them as                 limitations of the                  > electric power system. For the same size, less                 weight, and lower cost                  > you could install a diesel engine that would drive                 the boat near hull                  > speed and have some reserve power if things get                 hairy. I'm not saying I                  > don't think electric is a good idea, it is just                 that you are going to                  > have to give up either speed or range or both                 compared to a diesel                  > engine. For some folks this is worthwhile. I really                 would like the                  > ability to silently motor and especially silently                 motor-sail. I also                  > really like the idea of no oil changes, fuel                 filters and other                  > engine-related tinkering. However, for my current                 plans and electric                  > power system just couldn't check all the boxes. I                 think I could have                  > achieved the power and range I wanted with an                 electric propulsion system                  > AND a diesel generator, but the cost was going to                 be a lot more than                  > just a diesel engine.                 >                  > Darren                 >                  > On 16-02-24 12:50 AM, Hannu Venermo                 gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:                 > > Well, ...                 > > Engines are used only 1-5% of the time.                 > >                 > > If you have a big battery, even solar-only                 would be practical.                 > > At 10 kW charge, and say 5%, you could have                 200 kWhr capacity.                 > > In actual practice engine use == 1% or much                 less.                 > > Plenty to run even a big boat.                 > >                 > > Battery cost for major capacity is the only                 limiting factor.                 > > Technologically, its not hard to do.                 > >                 > > I myself would start with a 90 kW battery from                 a trashed electric car.                 > >                 > > Hopefully, some day soon I can ...                 > >                 > > On 24/02/2016 05:20, Matt Malone                 m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]                 > > wrote:                 > >> Absolutely in agreement with your comments                 on electric. If one had a                 > >> really big cat, that would provide more                 real-estate for panels, but                 > >> still, 10kW is 40 panels and at least                 $10,000 DIY installed, and 10kW                 > >> is not much of an engine. As Darren point                 out, that is assuming one                 > >> does not use electricity for anything                 else. I use electric                 > >> propulsion, only for my side-thruster. I                 would never be without it,                 > >> and it is 100% solar powered... but it                 only runs about 1 minute at a                 > >> time.                 > >>                 > >> Matt                 >                  >                  >                  > ------------------------------------                 >                  > ------------------------------------                 >                  > To Post a message, send it to:                 origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:                 origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com                 > ------------------------------------                 >                  > Yahoo Groups Links                 >                  > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:                 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/                 >                  > <*> Your email settings:                 > Individual Email | Traditional                 >                  > <*> To change settings online go to:                 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join                 > (Yahoo! ID required)                 >                  > <*> To change settings via email:                 > origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com                  > origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com                 >                  > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an                 email to:                 > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com                 >                  > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:                 > https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/                 >                                                                                |
33354|33321|2016-02-25 05:19:09|Hannu Venermo|Re: Electric motor|Charging at 3 kW x 10 effective hours = 30 kW hours per day. You get about 12 hours of worktable sunlight at sea, in the areas most  of us cruise at.  And you dont need 100 kWh to cruise .. thats for the full bank, maybe 4  days in practice.   On 25/02/2016 04:44, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Sorry, 10 hours x 10kW is 100kWh, not 10kWh.  If you are assuming  > charging at 3kWh / day, then you will need *33 days* of sun to recover  > from motoring 40nm, not 3 days.   --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33355|33321|2016-02-25 06:00:48|fmdepiolenc|Re: Electric motor|With all those provisos? Okay. I don't really believe, however, that biodiesel specs can be met starting with unsaturated fats, and I've never heard of it being done.Marc|
33356|33321|2016-02-25 06:00:59|fmdepiolenc|Re: Electric motor|With all those provisos? Okay. I don't really believe, however, that biodiesel specs can be met starting with unsaturated fats, and I've never heard of it being done.Marc|
33357|33357|2016-02-25 07:20:24|jpronk1|Metal cleaning|Have you seen this rotary tool for cleaning metal?  http://rotatingblasterdisc.com/  Worth having a look at? James|
33358|33321|2016-02-25 09:22:16|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Electric motor|Solar/electric can work on inland waterways - there was an article in one of the UK canal comics fairly recently about someone who had done it.However,even there,there are some serious qualifications.Power requirements on a canal are minimal - originally 1hp - and there are usually speed restrictions to protect the banks.Even so,the cruising range,although adequate,was rather restricted,and no mention was made of going on river or tidal waterways,where the power requirements would be potentially much increased.You can't always go with the flow.I don't see why dieselelectric shouldn't be a good option though.If it is good enough for the big cruise liners it must have something going for it.Advantages1.More choice over diesel engine position.Diesel engines are not particularly quiet and are usually mounted under the steering position which can get a bit annoying,particularly on a canal boat.(If you are doing some serious motoring to avoid trouble at sea you've probably got other things to worry about)2.If you are going to use lead ballast make it work for you in the form of a battery bank.Ex fork truck batteries are indicated here.Lithium batteries are still expensive and there are enough horror stories around about battery fires to make me a bit iffy about them.Sodium may be the eventual answer but not for a few years yet.Weight should not be too much of a consideration because you will probably still need more ballast anyway.You can run the engine at it's optimum economical speed for recharging purposes if any incidental solar or wind systems can't keep up.Do we have any ex submariners(non nuclear) as members.The war films I was brought up on had submarines running on diesel on the surface and electric when submerged.3.Elimination of gas.Gas is a major safety hazard on a boat so well worth eliminating if possible.Disadvantages1.Battery maintainance.Always a problem with lead/acid but might be possible to use solar to keep them topped up,although any serious recharging would need the main engine or shore power.Don't forget to arrange proper venting2.Extra cost.Even secondhand,batteries are not cheap.One way of minimising this might be to buy a second hand forktruck which you could use in building the boat and then cannibalise for the battery and,possibly, the motor.Electric trucks in the UK in my experience are  usually designed to operate on smooth surfaces such as warehouse floors.They are intended to operate for an 8 hour shift without recharging and then to be recharged overnight so should provide a reasonable range for around the harbour/bay.The electric motors are about 3hp,probably not enough for the main propulsion,but since they are normally coupled to a hydraulic pump you could power a good range of auxiliaries.You would also need some sort of power regulation system and these aren't cheap either,although they do come up on the second hand market occasionally3.Electricity and water don't mix,although you will have had to deal with this anyway,since you will have a battery to start the diesel with anywaycheersAndy Airey|
33359|33321|2016-02-25 10:41:11|Matt Malone|Re: Electric motor|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-589175420 .ygrps-yiv-589175420hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-589175420 .ygrps-yiv-589175420hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Sorry, Hanermo, that was 3kWhr/day, the hours in the day off a 500W panel have already been accounted for.  If one actually had 3kW of panels (12 commercial-sized panels, about 18 square meters), and one could orient panels to get full power output for 10 hours, then your calculation would work.  But that is never going to happen in practice.  The realities of solar power are, you never get the rated output, and you never get it for much of the day.  For instance on a "40W" panel at 45 degrees north, at maximum solar intensity in March, on a day that was as clear as any March day can be, pointing the panel exactly perpendicular to the sun, the best I could get on a variable load, manually hunting for the maximum power point, was 27W.   That was a direct experiment.In a long running installation, at 45 degrees north I am using "120W" of panels and I figure the effective 24/7 power level, because of cloudy days etc, is always less than 10W, maybe as low as 5W at some times of the year.  I have to be very careful to keep my constant power draws to minimum, and manage the frequency and duration of intermittent draws -- they can add up.  I have seasonal angle change adjustments, but, I do not use a 2-axis solar-tracking motor drive system.  My 20% discharge battery capacity is relatively large for the panel capacity, approximately 6kWh, but that means it still takes months to see the voltages come back up after a weekend of power tool use.  I have no illusions about the size of the panel array and battery bank needed to do reliable refrigeration, let alone a 10kW sailboat drive motor.  A 10kW sailboat drive motor would be comparable to a North American style electric range cooking a full Christmas dinner.    I calculated the batteries needed for an electric stove to cook a Christmas dinner would cost me USD$18,000, much more now in CAD$.   My system will use fuel and solar heat whenever possible and will use electric power only to monitor and control.   Computers can be low power and cleverly programmed, and relentless in their squeezing every bit of power out some some other source, or in limiting the wasting of power.   That I think is a far better use of solar.   On a boat I would look for solar power to serve LED lighting, gps/nav computer, and the autopilot.   Going further is $$.     Matt   > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:19:12 +0100> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Electric motor> > Charging at 3 kW x 10 effective hours = 30 kW hours per day.> You get about 12 hours of worktable sunlight at sea, in the areas most > of us cruise at.> > And you dont need 100 kWh to cruise .. thats for the full bank, maybe 4 > days in practice.> > On 25/02/2016 04:44, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:> > Sorry, 10 hours x 10kW is 100kWh, not 10kWh.  If you are assuming > > charging at 3kWh / day, then you will need *33 days* of sun to recover > > from motoring 40nm, not 3 days. > > -- > -hanermo (cnc designs)> > > > ------------------------------------> > ------------------------------------> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> ------------------------------------> > Yahoo Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/> > <*> Your email settings:>     Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join>     (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:>     origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:>     origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:>     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>   		 	   		   |
33360|33321|2016-02-25 12:44:53|Hannu Venermo|Re: Electric motor|My point was re: 6-8 panels at 350W each. 8 x 350 x 2.8 kW. Not quite, but realistically approx.  Yet, I agree.  There are many parts to this. Even cruising (power) boats mostly dont move (95% or more of the time). Its not a taxi, after all.  I am not, actually, advocating solar PV for motive, atm. Just pointing out that IF, we could store the power cheaply enough, even  small (8 panels) solar would be enough for even main motor traction needs.  The only real problem is the battery. PV panels cost 0.54€ / watt, with 22% VAT, in EU. 3 kw == 1600 € +/-.  The only real challenge is an atlantic crossing. If we accept, a 2 of 3 day slow-periods, a powerboat is (barely)  practical in pure EV. Today. Tomorrow (3 years) it will be relatively easy and cheap.  If I wanted a pure EV powerboat (I do, actually) I would do "leafs" that  expand (linear guides) to expand the charging area while underway. A 4x4 m area = 16 m2 is trivial, cheap. Double is doable.  A double would still be only 30 cm thick at 30 m2 == 6 kW at 5x6 m2 or so. Thats only 2 m overhang on a 2x2 m transom.  My points are theoretical, technical, and related to technology and costs. An 8 kW emergency diesel genny costs peanuts, 1 k or so. Thats your shit-happens plan.  They wont last, but you can package (oil/wrap) one, and until you start  to use it, it does not wear.  Even a big 6.5 M $ 24 m long power cruiser, can work 4 days without  gensets. only 4 panels, iirc, approx 2 kW. FPB from Dashew.   On 25/02/2016 16:41, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]  wrote:  > Sorry, Hanermo, that was 3kWhr/day,   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)|
33361|33357|2016-02-25 15:50:42|mountain man|Re: Metal cleaning|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> From the video on the company site, it takes quite some time to get a sandblasting finish on a small area.MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:20:23 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cleaning                                                   Have you seen this rotary tool for cleaning metal?  http://rotatingblasterdisc.com/  Worth having a look at? James                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-204178508 .ygrps-yiv-204178508ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-204178508ecxad a { 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33362|33321|2016-02-25 16:02:36|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Electric motor|A low-Tech solution, originally invented for narrowboats used on british inland waterways, is THIS inline-hybrid extension kit:http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/I first came across this in 2008 when I tried to help a customer to build a low budget, low tech diesel AND electric propulsion for his then newly bought ex Bundesmarine sailing cruiser of 55 classic feet by A&R.It was a bit chaotic to get into touch with those people back then, trying this from the right-side-driving part of the world, but he was finally able to buy directly from the then hybrid marine people over there one of their prototypes built for "seagoing" instead of the narrowboat powering kit.When the crisis stroke massively in 2009 he wasn't able to keep up prior plans and rebuilt everything "as was" instead, without major changes -and without help of any professionals including me- .As far as I know he didn't put in the precious thingy to date, so no practical experience with it.The mere idea of combining an inline-parallel generator-motor with a conservative diesel and shaft might appeal to some of the part-time electric sailors here, though, and perhaps some british Islander here does even know about and / or knows one of today's "hybrid-marine" people.I'd be interested to learn about the real world practicality of this idea myself pretty much for various reasons.Cheers G_BAm 25.02.2016 um 15:21 schrieb ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats]:                          Solar/electric can work on inland waterways - there was an article in one of the UK canal comics fairly recently about someone who had done it.However,even there,there are some serious qualifications.Power requirements on a canal are minimal - originally 1hp - and there are usually speed restrictions to protect the banks.Even so,the cruising range,although adequate,was rather restricted,and no mention was made of going on river or tidal waterways,where the power requirements would be potentially much increased.You can't always go with the flow.I don't see why dieselelectric shouldn't be a good option though.If it is good enough for the big cruise liners it must have something going for it.                          |
33363|33357|2016-02-25 23:43:37|opuspaul|Re: Metal cleaning|They use tools like this as well as the Bristle Blaster to clean up welds and small repairs on pipelines.   The are a good alternative to needle scalers but not as good as sandblasting.   I think the Bristle Blaster would probably do the best job but they are very expensive.  Both are slow.For small repair jobs and chips,  I normally use a small spot blaster with an air compressor.   The one I like to use is the one with a hopper in the gun.  It is much easier to use than the hose and bucket type and very cheap.    I just get some coarse garden sand and dry it in the sun on a tarp.   You could probablybuy a small compressor and a blaster for less than the cost of a Bristle Blaster.  http://www.harborfreight.com/21-oz-hopper-gravity-feed-spot-blaster-gun-95793.htmlIf you are blasting or cleaning a big area like a hull and expect to do it in a day, there is no way to get around using a big sandblaster.   Most people would use a 10mm or 3/8 inch nozzle.   This is big gear that needs a very big compressor.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <mdemers2005@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-879524762 #ygrps-yiv-879524762ygrps-yiv-1286334883 .ygrps-yiv-879524762ygrps-yiv-1286334883hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-879524762 #ygrps-yiv-879524762ygrps-yiv-1286334883 .ygrps-yiv-879524762ygrps-yiv-1286334883hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}From the video on the company site, it takes quite some time to get a sandblasting finish on a small area.MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:20:23 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cleaning  Have you seen this rotary tool for cleaning metal?  http://rotatingblasterdisc.com/  Worth having a look at? 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33364|33321|2016-02-25 23:59:40|opuspaul|Re: Electric motor|I absolutely love my 250 watt solar panel and MPPT converter.  If it is sunny, it supplies all the power I need for my 12V fridge, navigation and laptop computer.  I rarely need to run the engine.For motive power, forget it.  A 250 watt panel is hard to mount on a 36 foot boat.  I have no idea where I would mount more.  Even on a large catamaran, you need to be able to walk on the decks so most areas mounting solar panels would be extremely difficult.   As far as wind power goes, the idea of steady winds is a myth.  Most people like to anchor out of the wind.   In the Caribbean and in Hawaii the winds are probably as steady as anywhere but there are still times where the wind may not blow for weeks and weeks.  Mother nature is fickle.  Being independant for me is very important.  I would be very unhappy with a propulsion system that would only work intermittently.|
33365|33321|2016-02-26 02:13:58|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Electric motor|On sailboats, there is another issue to face a lot of people don't think about in the first place:Solar panels are sensitive to disturbances of their FULL exposure to the sun.Thus, on traditional sailboats with a lot of stays and shrouds together with the masts all over the place You will find many times a lot less than the nominal power output does actually leave a panel simply crossed by a stayshade, not to mention a mastshade - in the shady, rainplagued higher latitudes panels were often rendered nearly useless by this fact even when anchoring, together with the additional problems delivered by low angle of solar radiation.I once spoke to an engineer of solarfarms in the Baltic who had developed some pretty weird ways to direct his whole boat under a bunch of different anchor lines, and he told me he still just does this to gain knowledge about limitations he would use on his dayjob, not any more to gain power in earnest for his battery bank 'cause the actual output most of the time wasn't worth the trouble.The windage of really large panel areas outside the guardrail or even more so above the doghouse / aftcabin / cockpit is a nightmare while sailing, and You provide even more shade by the sails then.Those larger panel areas also delivering a lot of very unwanted shade underneath, rendering survival above the temperate latitude zones a freezing challange.So panel surface is pretty limited by quite some factors on real sailboats, as is output of the remaining surface.Moderate house loads were well managable with solar these days, as LED and other advanced technologies reduced the needed amounts significantly.Mere solar-only propulsion not so much, I'm afraid, so I absolutely second this!Am 26.02.2016 um 05:59 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:                          I absolutely love my 250 watt solar panel and MPPT converter.  If it is sunny, it supplies all the power I need for my 12V fridge, navigation and laptop computer.  I rarely need to run the engine.For motive power, forget it.  A 250 watt panel is hard to mount on a 36 foot boat.  I have no idea where I would mount more.  Even on a large catamaran, you need to be able to walk on the decks so most areas mounting solar panels would be extremely difficult.   Mother nature is fickle.  Being independant for me is very important.  I would be very unhappy with a propulsion system that would only work intermittently.                       |
33366|33321|2016-02-26 15:49:42|opuspaul|Re: Electric motor|So true.   I used to have a wind generator on a pole on my stern pulpit.   The shadow from it often made my solar panels useless.  I went to a larger panel, got rid of the wind generator, and I am now far better off.|
33367|33357|2016-02-26 16:14:36|mountain man|Re: Metal cleaning|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-269982687 .ygrps-yiv-269982687hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-269982687 .ygrps-yiv-269982687hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> The bristle blaster would be usefull on a steel boat if it was 5 or 6 inches wide...MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 20:43:36 -0800Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Metal cleaning                                                   They use tools like this as well as the Bristle Blaster to clean up welds and small repairs on pipelines.   The are a good alternative to needle scalers but not as good as sandblasting.   I think the Bristle Blaster would probably do the best job but they are very expensive.  Both are slow.For small repair jobs and chips,  I normally use a small spot blaster with an air compressor.   The one I like to use is the one with a hopper in the gun.  It is much easier to use than the hose and bucket type and very cheap.    I just get some coarse garden sand and dry it in the sun on a tarp.   You could probablybuy a small compressor and a blaster for less than the cost of a Bristle Blaster.  http://www.harborfreight.com/21-oz-hopper-gravity-feed-spot-blaster-gun-95793.htmlIf you are blasting or cleaning a big area like a hull and expect to do it in a day, there is no way to get around using a big sandblaster.   Most people would use a 10mm or 3/8 inch nozzle.   This is big gear that needs a very big compressor.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <mdemers2005@...> wrote :From the video on the company site, it takes quite some time to get a sandblasting finish on a small area.MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:20:23 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cleaning  Have you seen this rotary tool for cleaning metal?  http://rotatingblasterdisc.com/  Worth having a look at? 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33368|33368|2016-02-28 00:31:34|aguysailing|Epoxy Cop|Just wondering how corrosive Epoxy Cop bottom paint is to bare metal.  After power washing on my 36 I noticed a few dings etc and a few thin scrapes to bare metal.  There was nothing large and glaring but definitely I could see bare metal.  I ended up just applying the expoxy cop over these.  Since then I have read a few posts here about corrosion that have me wondering.  thanks....|
33369|33368|2016-03-01 21:00:51|brentswain38|Re: Epoxy Cop|If you see any rust then simply weld a few more zincs on.|
33370|33368|2016-03-02 17:44:55|opuspaul|Re: Epoxy Cop|I am not going to say that you will have a big problem but it is not normally a good idea to use a copper bottom paint on bare steel.    I just hauled out and had a few bare spots like yourself.  They make primers that are compatible with old bottom paint and that will go on bare steel.  I ended up using Primocon which is easy to find and apply since it is a single pack paint.  You don't need to worry about going over the surrounding antifouling with it.  Just sand it a bit and get the loose paint off.  I found it best to put the paint in to the pits and scratches with a small scraper rather than a brush.Having too many zincs is also a bad idea.  It can protect the metal so well that it ends up causing hydrogen gassing under any imperfection in the paint which then causes small blisters.  It is as if the paint gets blown off.  I had this problem.....lots of tiny blisters which were worse around where the zincs were located.   The steel was perfect where it was exposed.    I could still see the sand blast pattern in the steel after several years of fighting the blisters.   One clue I had was that my rudder which was isolated from the zincs via the rudder bushings and had the exact same paint job had no problem.  I took off one of the zincs and it seemed to improve things on the hull.  Google <zinc hull hydrogen blisters> or <cathodic disbondment> for more.The biggest mistake I made when I launched my boat was plugging it in to shore power without an isolation transformer or galvanic isolator.   This is a sure way to damage your expensive paint job unless your electric system is completely isolated from your engine and your hull.  Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't even do it for a day.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :Just wondering how corrosive Epoxy Cop bottom paint is to bare metal.  After power washing on my 36 I noticed a few dings etc and a few thin scrapes to bare metal.  There was nothing large and glaring but definitely I could see bare metal.  I ended up just applying the expoxy cop over these.  Since then I have read a few posts here about corrosion that have me wondering.  thanks....|
33371|33368|2016-03-03 12:40:02|aguysailing|Re: Epoxy Cop|Hi Paul...  this is from Interlux:To answer your question Epoxycop has copper in it so when it comes in contact with bare steel it  will cause galvanic corrosion. You will need a barrier between the Epoxycop and the steel which would be Interprotect 2000E  I thank you |
33372|33372|2016-03-03 12:58:47|aguysailing|Sand blast (again)|The hull below the water line, after 11 yrs I have noticed blisters plus scratches, dings to bare metal.  I have decided to sand blast below waterline to bare metal. I don't believe the guy who spray painted originally Wasser tar to the undersides did a good job.  I think lathering it on with a brush/roller would have been better.  (or the problem could also have been from all the commercial plugged in fishing boats at the dock I was tied to for 6 months last year). For painting Brent says no zinc primer needed others yes.   ?About blasting there have been posts about how to's from wet blasting to dry ice.  Again, if you have recently blasted how did your method work out.   I figure on a haul out and rent some good equipment (as for the cost of this, the amortized amount of such over the 11 yrs makes it a bit more palatable).|
33373|33368|2016-03-03 15:05:44|opuspaul|Re: Epoxy Cop|Interprotect is very good paint but very expensive.  It is a first class choice for new builds, and is a favorite on aluminum hulls since it has glass flake in it which makes it almost impermeable to electrolysis when applied correctly.  As far as I know, it is not suitable for patching over old antifouling paint, since it is a hard, high build two pack epoxy.    It would be like putting concrete over a soft mud bank.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :Hi Paul...  this is from Interlux:To answer your question Epoxycop has copper in it so when it comes in contact with bare steel it will cause galvanic corrosion. You will need a barrier between the Epoxycop and the steel which would be Interprotect 2000EI thank you |
33374|32734|2016-03-03 17:26:02|jaybeecherbay|Re: Zinga vs Wasser zinc primer/ tar|does any one have information on where to purchase WASSER products?  who is the canadian rep?thanksJ.|
33375|33372|2016-03-03 17:26:57|Aaron|Re: Sand blast (again)|My 2 cents says to do a white metal blast with blast anchor profile to meet the coating requirements of the paint you choose. That is how pros are required to apply on industrial jobs. AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       The hull below the water line, after 11 yrs I have noticed blisters plus scratches, dings to bare metal.  I have decided to sand blast below waterline to bare metal. I don't believe the guy who spray painted originally Wasser tar to the undersides did a good job.  I think lathering it on with a brush/roller would have been better.  (or the problem could also have been from all the commercial plugged in fishing boats at the dock I was tied to for 6 months last year). For painting Brent says no zinc primer needed others yes.   ?About blasting there have been posts about how to's from wet blasting to dry ice.  Again, if you have recently blasted how did your method work out.   I figure on a haul out and rent some good equipment (as for the cost of this, the amortized amount of such over the 11 yrs makes it a bit more palatable).                            |
33376|33372|2016-03-03 20:16:24|opuspaul|Re: Sand blast (again)|I agree with Aaron.   Do what the commercial guys do.   I blasted my 36  below the waterline about 3 years ago.  The blast media of choice was  garnet rather than copper slag or silica sand.   I could have done soda  blast but it was more expensive and the guy said not as good.   Wet  blasting works but is not as superior so it is your third choice.   If  you wet blast, you should use a product like Carboline Rustbond after it  is dry to seal and bond to the rust bloom.  It is really good stuff for  badly prepared surfaces.   If you really want a good job that will  last, don't cheap out and try to use regular sand.  You won't save much  money in the long run, it will be slower, you won't leave the same blast  profile, and you may be blasting salt or other unknown contaminants  into the surface of the metal.   You may also have to filter and dry the  sand first which can be a big job.You are lucky if you are able  to rent the equipment and do it yourself.   I did everything myself in  Canada but in NZ you need a resource consent which is pretty much  impossible so I had to hire somebody to come and do it.   I  had to put  up tarps to stop all the dust which ended up being a bigger job than the  sandblasting.   Applying a zinc undercoat is wonderful above the  waterline for when you  get the odd paint chip but it does nothing below the waterline and may  actually cause more paint blistering.  You can actually put  paint on thicker and more even spraying than rolling.  I used an air  compressor with a pressure pot and gun.   With a good pressure pot,  there is no need to thin the epoxy to get it to spray.  My whole  pressure pot and gun was on sale for about $100.   You could rent a  compressor if you don't have one but I bought a long  hose so that I could hook up to the large compressor at my boat yard.    It has saved me alot of money in rollers, brushes and trays over the  years.  Use one of the disposable paint thickness guages when you apply  the paint to take the guesswork out of it.   It might surprise you how  thick or thin you are putting it on.   The paint companies will normally  give them to you for free when you buy the paint.   Ask for a "wet film  gauge or comb".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrrkRSq79L4 Tar  based paints are getting harder and harder to find.   A lot of  companies have stopped making it for environmental reasons.   I don't  think it really matters.  If it is an industrial high build epoxy used  for splash zones on oil rigs you know it should be OK.   I used  Carboguard (Carboline) 504.   This is what they use on oil rigs and  ships and on most of the steel boats in NZ.    I would use it or Ameron  (PPG) Amerlock 400 if I was doing it again.   They both are easy to use  and go on very nice.   The only reason I chose the Carboline over the  Ameron was that I could get a deal on the price and it was what the  sandblast guy normally used.  They are both reasonably priced compared  to the yacht market products and excellent paints.   I would have to do  more research but if I had an aluminum boat, I would  look at the Interprotect or possibly the Ameron 400 GF which has glass  flake incorporated into the paint.  Both of these are quite thick and  therefore hard to apply but excellent electrolysis protection.  Whatever  you chose to use, apply the first coat of anti fouling within 24 hours  of the last coat of epoxy and you will never have any further adhesion  problems.If you were plugged into a dock, I bet that was the  cause of a lot of your paint problems.   Just having zincs won't protect  you from stray currents or ground problems on other boats.  Make sure  you use an isolation transformer or galvanic isolator.  Cheers, Paul|
33377|33372|2016-03-03 20:58:56|aguysailing|Re: Sand blast (again)|Thanks for your reply Paul.  Wasser Tar is available here.   Are the products you mention preferrable?  I will check out what the commercial guys use for blasting material.  As far as thickness goes what should the wet be?  Interesting that they show a formula for thickness based on the wet application.  How long would you estimate haul out time as cost is based on time on their hard.  I will have one person helping out.  It would be interesting to hear about your experience in NZ perhaps in another thread..... Gary|
33378|33372|2016-03-04 10:36:18|Shawn Green|Re: Sand blast (again)|In my experience blasting medium is largely irrelevant if you have enough air.  I just put 50 bags of 30/40  through last weekend in the rain and never plugged once.  Did a great job.  But then I was running a 300psi/ 1100 cfm compressor. The more air the better. Just don't let go of the nozzle or you will regret it!!Ha! Shawn green.|
33379|33379|2016-03-05 11:49:57|smallboatvoyaguer|Cutting Our Portholes| I'd like to cut out the portholes and hatches before sandblasting, for more ventilation. I am wondering if I should just cut them out, or if I should add flat-bar around them so the cabin sides hold their shape and to help with distortion. I am using a plasma cutter. Do the cabin sides get any reinforcement? What have people done as far as deck beams go around hatches?Thanks, Marlin|
33380|33372|2016-03-05 15:43:03|opuspaul|Re: Sand blast (again)|Brent is the coal tar epoxy expert.   I have never used Wasser Tar.  I used coal tar epoxy in my bilge once and it didn't stick.    It also seemed to be affected by any oil or fuel in the bilge.   I don't know why.  It could have been a bad batch or I could have done something wrong.    I stripped it off and then coated with Amerlock 400 and had no further problems.   When I first painted the boat, I used Devoe Bar-Rust 235.  It is good but I consider the Amerlock superior.Tar base paints have limitations when you want to put a top coat over them so a lot of people don't like them above the waterline.   I would think below the waterline, there is little to chose between them all and they probably all work fine.  Coal tar is hard to find in NZ and probably just as expensive as any other industrial paint.   My preference is to keep it simple and just use the same high build epoxy everywhere.   I know the Carboline and Ameron paints work.The question I have is, if you use a coat tar epoxy and then it turns out that you can't get it ten years from now, will you be able to overcoat it without any problems?  I don't know.It is interesting what you bring up about the wet film versus dry film thickness.   Few people notice this.    On some of the new low solvent paints the dry film and wet film are almost the same.    I heard of one that they use on pipelines that goes on like oatmeal.   It may stop corrosion but it would be horrible to work with and look horrible on a boat.   On some of the old paints, the solvents evaporate and leave a dry film that may be only 30 or 40% of the wet film.  The Carboguard 504 I used was 50% dry film to wet film.   The Amerlock 400 that I have also used is 83%.   It goes on thicker and theoretically would need fewer coats.   Despite the high solids content, it is still a very nice paint to apply.   You really need to read the specs for coverage.  It may make a big difference in how much paint you need to buy and how you apply it.  If in doubt, go with an extra coat.  Or go with an extra coat anyway :).The guy who came to do the bottom of my boat blasted off the old coatings and sprayed it in well less than 8 hours.  He had a very good setup with a large (10 mm?) nozzle on the blaster.  Garnet is sharp and cuts in to the old paint quite well.   I did some blasting with beach sand once (I couldn't get anything else) and it was much slower.   I had everything masked and ready with duct tape along the waterline and old plastic tarps protecting the topsides.  The spraying is easy.  Using a pressure pot, one person can spray the bottom of a hull in about a hour.  With brush and roller it takes 2 people about 2 hours.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :Thanks for your reply Paul.  Wasser Tar is available here.   Are the products you mention preferrable?  I will check out what the commercial guys use for blasting material.  As far as thickness goes what should the wet be?  Interesting that they show a formula for thickness based on the wet application.  How long would you estimate haul out time as cost is based on time on their hard.  I will have one person helping out.  It would be interesting to hear about your experience in NZ perhaps in another thread..... Gary|
33381|33372|2016-03-05 19:01:41|aguysailing|Re: Sand blast (again)|Thanks again for the info Paul.  I am assuming the Ameron goes directly on the bare metal without any zinc or other primers?  Also, when you taped off just wondering how you managed not to have the blasting go right through the tape.  I was thinking of some thin sheet metal strips attached with 2 sided tape...  Gary|
33382|33372|2016-03-05 21:01:26|opuspaul|Re: Sand blast (again)|It goes right on the bare metal.   Primers will do nothing for you under the waterline if the steel is clean and it has the right blast profile.   If you were water blasting or had a poor surface, I would use Carboline Rustbond or Amerlock Sealer first.   These two products are very thin, clear and go on like water.  One liter goes a long way.   They really penetrate any imperfection and wet out well to seal out any oxygen and stop rust.  If you overcoat with high build epoxy within 24 hours, it should stick OK.If you look in under the folder <Paul Wilson's File> you will see that I posted recommended paint specs I received from the tech reps a few years ago.   Reading it again, I see that I used Altex 540 as a high build epoxy on top of the 504.    The paint companies are never happy leaving things the way they are and are constantly changing names or even product numbers.   Amerlock 2 is the old name for Amerlock 400.   Ameron is now PPG but they often keep the Amerlock name since it was so well known.    Devoe became Altex and then became Carboline a few years ago.   Carboguard  is the new name for Altraprime or Altrabuild.   It gets confusing and it will probably change again next week, if it hasn't already.   You might need to touch up the edges a bit but two or three layers of good quality duct tape should be enough to protect the waterline if the blaster is careful.   The duct tape is soft so the blast media tends to bounce off.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :Thanks again for the info Paul.  I am assuming the Ameron goes directly on the bare metal without any zinc or other primers?  Also, when you taped off just wondering how you managed not to have the blasting go right through the tape.  I was thinking of some thin sheet metal strips attached with 2 sided tape...  Gary|
33383|33379|2016-03-06 16:18:48|theboilerflue|Re: Cutting Our Portholes|Yes just cut them, it won't distort and the plastic from the windows and the frame will straighten it anyway when you bolt it together.|
33384|33372|2016-03-07 13:46:15|brentswain38|Re: Sand blast (again)|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :I supect that whatever you used ot strip the epoxy tar off also striped the oil which was stopping it from Sticking. Above the waterline some dont  like t\he epoxy tar bleed thru which is easily eliminated if you let your subsequent colour coat harden for a week or two before throwing another coat on.My book covers that.No problem painting later, if you use something other than epoxy tar for your final coat. Epoxy of any kind as a final coat should be avoided anyway, as it is not UV resistant.  Brent is the coal tar epoxy expert.   I have never used Wasser Tar.  I used coal tar epoxy in my bilge once and it didn't stick.    It also seemed to be affected by any oil or fuel in the bilge.   I don't know why.  It could have been a bad batch or I could have done something wrong.    I stripped it off and then coated with Amerlock 400 and had no further problems.   When I first painted the boat, I used Devoe Bar-Rust 235.  It is good but I consider the Amerlock superior.Tar base paints have limitations when you want to put a top coat over them so a lot of people don't like them above the waterline.   I would think below the waterline, there is little to chose between them all and they probably all work fine.  Coal tar is hard to find in NZ and probably just as expensive as any other industrial paint.   My preference is to keep it simple and just use the same high build epoxy everywhere.   I know the Carboline and Ameron paints work.The question I have is, if you use a coat tar epoxy and then it turns out that you can't get it ten years from now, will you be able to overcoat it without any problems?  I don't know.It is interesting what you bring up about the wet film versus dry film thickness.   Few people notice this.    On some of the new low solvent paints the dry film and wet film are almost the same.    I heard of one that they use on pipelines that goes on like oatmeal.   It may stop corrosion but it would be horrible to work with and look horrible on a boat.   On some of the old paints, the solvents evaporate and leave a dry film that may be only 30 or 40% of the wet film.  The Carboguard 504 I used was 50% dry film to wet film.   The Amerlock 400 that I have also used is 83%.   It goes on thicker and theoretically would need fewer coats.   Despite the high solids content, it is still a very nice paint to apply.   You really need to read the specs for coverage.  It may make a big difference in how much paint you need to buy and how you apply it.  If in doubt, go with an extra coat.  Or go with an extra coat anyway :).The guy who came to do the bottom of my boat blasted off the old coatings and sprayed it in well less than 8 hours.  He had a very good setup with a large (10 mm?) nozzle on the blaster.  Garnet is sharp and cuts in to the old paint quite well.   I did some blasting with beach sand once (I couldn't get anything else) and it was much slower.   I had everything masked and ready with duct tape along the waterline and old plastic tarps protecting the topsides.  The spraying is easy.  Using a pressure pot, one person can spray the bottom of a hull in about a hour.  With brush and roller it takes 2 people about 2 hours.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :Thanks for your reply Paul.  Wasser Tar is available here.   Are the products you mention preferrable?  I will check out what the commercial guys use for blasting material.  As far as thickness goes what should the wet be?  Interesting that they show a formula for thickness based on the wet application.  How long would you estimate haul out time as cost is based on time on their hard.  I will have one person helping out.  It would be interesting to hear about your experience in NZ perhaps in another thread..... Gary|
33385|33379|2016-03-07 13:49:01|brentswain38|Re: Cutting Our Portholes|       fi anything the shrinkage of the cut will reduce distorton.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <haidan@...> wrote :Yes just cut them, it won't distort and the plastic from the windows and the frame will straighten it anyway when you bolt it together.|
33386|33372|2016-03-07 13:52:39|brentswain38|Re: Sand blast (again)|    The coarser the sand the slower it blasts. I once used 16 grit sand , slow as a bureaucrats brain. Then went to  20- 30 , much faster.|
33387|33372|2016-03-07 15:21:06|Hannu Venermo|Re: Sand blast (again)|In general, in other industrial apps, coarser needs more  torque/pressure/power. And is very, very much faster.  So, I think, but have no experience re: sandblast, that a 1.5-3-6  increase in hp/volume/pressure will vastly increase and improve results  with coarser media.  A 2-5kW linisher/industrial belt sander is very fast. 10 -30 secs per workpiece.  A hand tool, effective 200-500 W, might take 5 mins.  So, coarse media, at right stuff, is about 10x faster. But it needs tools very much bigger than most hobby stuff.  A real industrial paint system is 10x faster than a typical one used by  most hobby boat people. So is a real industrial sand blaster.  Example: I invested in a very good industrial hand sander. Festool. 1200 €. 1400 W. Its about 10x faster than a typical hobby tool, and can run coarse stuff ok. I always use 40 grit on it, for metal.  Disc sander, 300 mm, 1100 W. Biggest I found. Heavy. 40 kg.  Many experiences online of fast sandblast on coarse media, with  industrial stuff. Might be petrol driven 5-15 hp stuff.  A good powerful pressurised water system aka pressure washer will eat alu. I have used same, on Mig21bis fighter jets.    On 07/03/2016 19:52, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > The coarser the sand the slower it blasts. I once used 16 grit sand ,  > slow as a bureaucrats brain. Then went to  20- 30 , much faster.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33388|33372|2016-03-07 16:05:25|Aaron|Re: Sand blast (again)|Hannu your right but there is no need to be able to blast a hole in the hull.AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       In general, in other industrial apps, coarser needs more  torque/pressure/power. And is very, very much faster.  So, I think, but have no experience re: sandblast, that a 1.5-3-6  increase in hp/volume/pressure will vastly increase and improve results  with coarser media.  A 2-5kW linisher/industrial belt sander is very fast. 10 -30 secs per workpiece.  A hand tool, effective 200-500 W, might take 5 mins.  So, coarse media, at right stuff, is about 10x faster. But it needs tools very much bigger than most hobby stuff.  A real industrial paint system is 10x faster than a typical one used by  most hobby boat people. So is a real industrial sand blaster.  Example: I invested in a very good industrial hand sander. Festool. 1200 €. 1400 W. Its about 10x faster than a typical hobby tool, and can run coarse stuff ok. I always use 40 grit on it, for metal.  Disc sander, 300 mm, 1100 W. Biggest I found. Heavy. 40 kg.  Many experiences online of fast sandblast on coarse media, with  industrial stuff. Might be petrol driven 5-15 hp stuff.  A good powerful pressurised water system aka pressure washer will eat alu. I have used same, on Mig21bis fighter jets.  On 07/03/2016 19:52, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > The coarser the sand the slower it blasts. I once used 16 grit sand ,  > slow as a bureaucrats brain. Then went to  20- 30 , much faster.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                              |
33389|33372|2016-03-07 16:19:08|opuspaul|Re: Sand blast (again)|An experienced sandblaster will match the blast media with the blaster pressure and nozzle to give the desired blast profile.   A large sandblaster with a 10mm nozzle requires a huge amount of air.   The one I rented once delivered about 140 cfm.    This is the type of compressor that you tow behind a truck.   No home or shop air compressor will even come close, putting out less than a tenth of that.  Paul|
33390|33372|2016-03-07 16:37:39|Matt Malone|Re: Sand blast (again)|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I rented on of those compressors that tow behind a truck:  Note, they are very top heavy.   That means tongue weight will go negative on an uphill, very positive on a downhill.   They are very short wheelbase so they are extraordinarily hard to back up.  Plan ahead when towing.   Tow-behind compressors are insanely powerful however.  I would not hesitate to rent one for a weekend to clean a boat.        Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:19:08 -0800Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sand blast (again)                                                   An experienced sandblaster will match the blast media with the blaster pressure and nozzle to give the desired blast profile.   A large sandblaster with a 10mm nozzle requires a huge amount of air.   The one I rented once delivered about 140 cfm.    This is the type of compressor that you tow behind a truck.   No home or shop air compressor will even come close, putting out less than a tenth of that.  Paul                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-162641876 .ygrps-yiv-162641876ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-162641876ecxad { 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33391|33372|2016-03-09 16:39:02|brentswain38|Re: Sand blast (again)|We used a huge compressor on a trailer. For  given volume and pressure, the finer the sand the more hits per second, which makes coarse sand far fewer hits per second, and thus far slower., It sure was that way for us.|
33392|33392|2016-03-14 16:23:57|smallboatvoyaguer|Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset| So the diesel mechanic has a Yanmar 3tnv82a from a genset. It has five hours on it, literally. He bought it off a customer who had theirs replaced under warranty, then repaired it. The repair was very simple, although I can't remember what it was off the top of my head. He is offering it to me for $1,800.  He said it is a 2004. 29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500 Sounds about right for a 31 footer?  Thoughts? |
33393|33392|2016-03-14 16:42:53|opuspaul|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Sounds good.  Price out a Twindisc or ZF (Hurth) gearbox and adaptor plate.  You might find one used.  I bought parts once from these guys and they were pretty good.http://www.merequipment.com/ I would weld up a water cooled exhaust manifold out of heavy walled steel tubing.  This is not that difficult (basically a pipe within a pipe) and will last for many decades.  Cheers, Paul|
33394|33392|2016-03-14 16:57:08|opuspaul|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|One more thought.  A lot of Yanmars come with super flexible engine mounts.  Whatever you do, don't use them.   They are very expensive and don't last.   They may be nice at higher rpms but at  low rpms your engine will shake itself to bits.   I have seen them separate and fly apart after a few years and then you end up with a lot of damage to drive couplings and other hardware.   I would use the fully adjustable but much harder flexible mounts like these.   They last for decades and are relatively cheap and easy to use.  http://www.merequipment.com/products/df100-engine-mount.aspx  |
33395|33392|2016-03-14 17:12:00|opuspaul|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Here is an example of the Yanmar mount.   Look at the shaking of the engine and shaft coupling.  I was on a delivery in the Caribbean with this same setup.   We couldn't keep the couplings together with grub screws, seals and shafts badly worn out.  It was a dual engine catamaran.  We ended up finding 6 of 8 mounts bad with the rubber and metal separated.    Replacements were about $300 each plus we had to have new couplings machined.  I would have changed the mounts out to a new type but due to the lack of time, the owner didn't want to do this and ended up having to fork out of a lot of money.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8  |
33396|33392|2016-03-14 17:52:15|Hannu Venermo|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Good deal. Overpowered, but wont hurt anything.  If you can, do 2 oil tests (send for analysis) after engine is warm, and  compression tests. Or get a really qualified diesel mechanic to look at it. Price is great.  Hours are immaterial. Boat/yacht engines die from old age ie rust, not use.  Some risks. Misuse may have killed it. (Very unlikely). Running dry (water cooling), no oil, catastrophic cooling while running   (immersion) etc. Sucking water into it (siphoning). No oil-sitting-rusts.  Light diesels last a long time with oil changes, moderate continuous use. 2000-5000 hours, maybe.  Heavy diesels last 20-50.000 hours under maintenance, and continuous or  very common use. Lugger diesel. Etc. Northern lights gensets.  Heavy-duty 3-phase motors and servos last near forever, 10-50k hours. My old Bridgeport 3-phase motor was built a long ago. Best guess/timate, 1930-1950. 10.000 - 20.000 hours use, maybe. Runs near silent, now off a Hitachi VFD. Ie running at full power 1800 rpm, its still near silent (== coffeemaker).  Avg fail interval on modern brushless servo motors/drivers, light duty,  is == 10.000 hours. Light duty is = industrial use 24x7 at 100% duty cycle in this context. Can be made to run avg 50.000 hours for approx 50$ more in bits, and  trivial cooling improvements. Heavier rated power components, better passive cooling, thats all.  Ie running 30 motors/drivers 24x7 = 5040 hours/month, x 30 = 151200  hours/month. 1-2 will fail on any given month. Usually, only after 3-6-12 months have passed.    On 14/03/2016 21:23, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > head. He is offering it to me for $1,800. > >  He said it is a 2004. > > 29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500 > > >  Sounds about right for a 31 footer? > >  Thoughts? >  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33397|33392|2016-03-15 04:41:30|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I definitely second the motor-mount issues Paul brought up.You don't want to have in any way flexible and thus abrasive mounts in a setup You take the power off the engine-gear-unit by a fixed shaft - any qualified shaft repair does require taking the yacht on the hard, and a bunch of complicated machinery together with people knowing to use those.What I recommend to cut down movement AND vibrations from the hull is the use of pretty hard motor mounts with hydraulic dampening, used for example in VW's T4 Vanagon Diesel versions - reasonably priced for hydro-mounts and quite longlasting aka not too complicated.The oil inside those multi-layer mounts kills vibrations astonishingly well.Only in German, but You'll get the picture by looking at the pictures I suppose.http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/HydrolagerThere is a wide range of pretty advanced mounts You'd get from automotive suppliers of the rubber branch like Continental, for big Diesels in luxury cars are in urgent need of hard mounts which also efficiently kill vibration, reliable for a wide range of abuse, and sufficiently lasting at least some years - so development is rushing here.Some of the mounts Audi and BMW use for their V6 and V8 Diesels do tremendous jobs in keeping Engines with up to 800 Nm (Audi 4.2 tdi) of torque "still", both in terms of "steady" and "quiet", some of those mounts even dynamicly activated with partial vacuum in relation to changing revs - not that I'd recommend those for Yacht use, but to illustrate that these days You're not anymore pinned down to sour compromises when it comes to hard motor mounts.The VW-one might be a bit to hard for the Yanmar, though, for the 5-cylinder engine with 75 kW it is used for in the T4 is a pretty heavy toy, and does tend to erratic movements with its fifth cylinder.You might put Your engine on a directly fixed frame and put this frame with hydro mounts to the bed in the hull, what would allow to determine the leverage between cog of engine and points of load transfer, with longer leverage = better reduction of movements while still visible range at the mounting points left to kill vibes.Cheers G_BAm 14.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats]:                           So the diesel mechanic has a Yanmar 3tnv82a from a genset. It has five hours on it, literally. He bought it off a customer who had theirs replaced under warranty, then repaired it. The repair was very simple, although I can't remember what it was off the top of my head. He is offering it to me for $1,800.  He said it is a 2004. 29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500 Sounds about right for a 31 footer?  Thoughts?                           |
33398|33392|2016-03-15 11:31:11|Darren Bos|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|                    The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint     and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to     absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which     decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need     something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a     metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and     vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is     available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put     something together yourself.          Darren          On 16-03-15 01:41 AM, Giuseppe Bergman       giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            I definitely second the motor-mount issues Paul brought               up.                                       You don't want to have in any way flexible and thus               abrasive mounts in a setup You take the power off the               engine-gear-unit by a fixed shaft - any qualified shaft               repair does require taking the yacht on the hard, and a               bunch of complicated machinery together with people               knowing to use those.                                       What I recommend to cut down movement AND vibrations               from the hull is the use of pretty hard motor mounts with               hydraulic dampening, used for example in VW's T4 Vanagon               Diesel versions - reasonably priced for hydro-mounts and               quite longlasting aka not too complicated.                                       The oil inside those multi-layer mounts kills               vibrations astonishingly well.                                       Only in German, but You'll get the picture by looking               at the pictures I suppose.                                       http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Hydrolager                                       There is a wide range of pretty advanced mounts You'd               get from automotive suppliers of the rubber branch like               Continental, for big Diesels in luxury cars are in urgent               need of hard mounts which also efficiently kill vibration,               reliable for a wide range of abuse, and sufficiently               lasting at least some years - so development is rushing               here.                                       Some of the mounts Audi and BMW use for their V6 and V8               Diesels do tremendous jobs in keeping Engines with up to               800 Nm (Audi 4.2 tdi) of torque "still", both in terms of               "steady" and "quiet", some of those mounts even dynamicly               activated with partial vacuum in relation to changing revs               - not that I'd recommend those for Yacht use, but to               illustrate that these days You're not anymore pinned down               to sour compromises when it comes to hard motor mounts.                                       The VW-one might be a bit to hard for the Yanmar,               though, for the 5-cylinder engine with 75 kW it is used               for in the T4 is a pretty heavy toy, and does tend to               erratic movements with its fifth cylinder.                                       You might put Your engine on a directly fixed frame and               put this frame with hydro mounts to the bed in the hull,               what would allow to determine the leverage between cog of               engine and points of load transfer, with longer leverage =               better reduction of movements while still visible range at               the mounting points left to kill vibes.                                       Cheers G_B                                                                                                 Am 14.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb musicasrevolution@...                   [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                                                      So the diesel mechanic has a                           Yanmar 3tnv82a from a genset. It has five                           hours on it, literally. He bought it off a                           customer who had theirs replaced under                           warranty, then repaired it. The repair was                           very simple, although I can't remember what it                           was off the top of my head. He is offering it                           to me for $1,800.                         He said it is a 2004.                        29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500                                                                        Sounds about right for a 31 footer?                                                                       Thoughts?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       |
33399|33392|2016-03-15 11:52:02|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-161342840 .ygrps-yiv-161342840hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-161342840 .ygrps-yiv-161342840hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Small point.  Proper marine engines in power boats usually have a really thick casting as the oil pan instead of the stamped tin sheet in non-marine engines.  It has been explained to me as protecting the hull of the boat from catastrophic failure in the engine punching through the bottom of the engine.  It would not be hard to put a thick piece of scrap metal under the engine between it and the hull -- cheap insurance for an unlikely but very difficult event to deal with on the water.   I would put it in even if the "marine" version of the same engine had the same oil pan as the non-marine version.  One less thing.  I have only had one engine fail and start banging bits around inside.  After the first few minutes of great uncertainty and concern, on the road it was really quite funny, especially since the engine (a GM) kept going, for years, banging all the way, before finally and fatally going crunch and punching through the oil pan.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 08:16:08 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                              The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint     and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to     absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which     decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need     something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a     metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and     vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is     available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put     something together yourself.          Darren          On 16-03-15 01:41 AM, Giuseppe Bergman       giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            I definitely second the motor-mount issues Paul brought               up.                                       You don't want to have in any way flexible and thus               abrasive mounts in a setup You take the power off the               engine-gear-unit by a fixed shaft - any qualified shaft               repair does require taking the yacht on the hard, and a               bunch of complicated machinery together with people               knowing to use those.                                       What I recommend to cut down movement AND vibrations               from the hull is the use of pretty hard motor mounts with               hydraulic dampening, used for example in VW's T4 Vanagon               Diesel versions - reasonably priced for hydro-mounts and               quite longlasting aka not too complicated.                                       The oil inside those multi-layer mounts kills               vibrations astonishingly well.                                       Only in German, but You'll get the picture by looking               at the pictures I suppose.                                       http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Hydrolager                                       There is a wide range of pretty advanced mounts You'd               get from automotive suppliers of the rubber branch like               Continental, for big Diesels in luxury cars are in urgent               need of hard mounts which also efficiently kill vibration,               reliable for a wide range of abuse, and sufficiently               lasting at least some years - so development is rushing               here.                                       Some of the mounts Audi and BMW use for their V6 and V8               Diesels do tremendous jobs in keeping Engines with up to               800 Nm (Audi 4.2 tdi) of torque "still", both in terms of               "steady" and "quiet", some of those mounts even dynamicly               activated with partial vacuum in relation to changing revs               - not that I'd recommend those for Yacht use, but to               illustrate that these days You're not anymore pinned down               to sour compromises when it comes to hard motor mounts.                                       The VW-one might be a bit to hard for the Yanmar,               though, for the 5-cylinder engine with 75 kW it is used               for in the T4 is a pretty heavy toy, and does tend to               erratic movements with its fifth cylinder.                                       You might put Your engine on a directly fixed frame and               put this frame with hydro mounts to the bed in the hull,               what would allow to determine the leverage between cog of               engine and points of load transfer, with longer leverage =               better reduction of movements while still visible range at               the mounting points left to kill vibes.                                       Cheers G_B                                                                                                 Am 14.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb musicasrevolution@...                   [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                                                      So the diesel mechanic has a                           Yanmar 3tnv82a from a genset. It has five                           hours on it, literally. He bought it off a                           customer who had theirs replaced under                           warranty, then repaired it. The repair was                           very simple, although I can't remember what it                           was off the top of my head. He is offering it                           to me for $1,800.                         He said it is a 2004.                        29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500                                                                        Sounds about right for a 31 footer?                                                                       Thoughts?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       <!-- #ygrps-yiv-161342840 .ygrps-yiv-161342840ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-161342840ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-161342840 .ygrps-yiv-161342840ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-161342840ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-161342840 .ygrps-yiv-161342840ExternalClass 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33400|33392|2016-03-15 13:09:12|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I understand what banged through the oilpan was a conrod ...?So the length of the conrods as radius from downside maximum of the crankshaft journal defines the hight Your engine does have to be placed over the hull - if breakage of a conrod is what really bothers You most during engine runnnig times.I actually did see a conrod prodruding out of an oilpan once, in deed, out of an Audi which did overtake me with roundabout 290 km/h shortly before ... not the revs a "normally" used Yachtdiesel will see in its lifetime, I'm afraid.And the initial clunk-clunk-clunk You'll determine ages before the conrod will actually rip under yachting revs is well audible even for absolute non-technical persons - I'd not fear this harder than general neglect of below-waterline-connections or water even getting pumped inside by a broken hose, for example .....my o.o2 $; Cheers G_BAm 15.03.2016 um 16:52 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                            Small point.  Proper marine engines in power boats usually have a really thick casting as the oil pan instead of the stamped tin sheet in non-marine engines.  It has been explained to me as protecting the hull of the boat from catastrophic failure in the engine punching through the bottom of the engine.  It would not be hard to put a thick piece of scrap metal under the engine between it and the hull -- cheap insurance for an unlikely but very difficult event to deal with on the water.   I would put it in even if the "marine" version of the same engine had the same oil pan as the non-marine version.  One less thing.  I have only had one engine fail and start banging bits around inside.  After the first few minutes of great uncertainty and concern, on the road it was really quite funny, especially since the engine (a GM) kept going, for years, banging all the way, before finally and fatally going crunch and punching through the oil pan.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 08:16:08 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                              The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint     and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to     absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which     decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need     something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a     metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and     vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is     available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put     something together yourself.          Darren          On 16-03-15 01:41 AM, Giuseppe Bergman       giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                           I definitely second the motor-mount issues Paul brought               up.                                       You don't want to have in any way flexible and thus               abrasive mounts in a setup You take the power off the               engine-gear-unit by a fixed shaft - any qualified shaft               repair does require taking the yacht on the hard, and a               bunch of complicated machinery together with people               knowing to use those.                                       What I recommend to cut down movement AND vibrations               from the hull is the use of pretty hard motor mounts with               hydraulic dampening, used for example in VW's T4 Vanagon               Diesel versions - reasonably priced for hydro-mounts and               quite longlasting aka not too complicated.                                       The oil inside those multi-layer mounts kills               vibrations astonishingly well.                                       Only in German, but You'll get the picture by looking               at the pictures I suppose.                                       http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Hydrolager                                       There is a wide range of pretty advanced mounts You'd               get from automotive suppliers of the rubber branch like               Continental, for big Diesels in luxury cars are in urgent               need of hard mounts which also efficiently kill vibration,               reliable for a wide range of abuse, and sufficiently               lasting at least some years - so development is rushing               here.                                       Some of the mounts Audi and BMW use for their V6 and V8               Diesels do tremendous jobs in keeping Engines with up to               800 Nm (Audi 4.2 tdi) of torque "still", both in terms of               "steady" and "quiet", some of those mounts even dynamicly               activated with partial vacuum in relation to changing revs               - not that I'd recommend those for Yacht use, but to               illustrate that these days You're not anymore pinned down               to sour compromises when it comes to hard motor mounts.                                       The VW-one might be a bit to hard for the Yanmar,               though, for the 5-cylinder engine with 75 kW it is used               for in the T4 is a pretty heavy toy, and does tend to               erratic movements with its fifth cylinder.                                       You might put Your engine on a directly fixed frame and               put this frame with hydro mounts to the bed in the hull,               what would allow to determine the leverage between cog of               engine and points of load transfer, with longer leverage =               better reduction of movements while still visible range at               the mounting points left to kill vibes.                                       Cheers G_B                                                                                                 Am 14.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb musicasrevolution@...                   [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                                                      So the diesel mechanic has a                           Yanmar 3tnv82a from a genset. It has five                           hours on it, literally. He bought it off a                           customer who had theirs replaced under                           warranty, then repaired it. The repair was                           very simple, although I can't remember what it                           was off the top of my head. He is offering it                           to me for $1,800.                         He said it is a 2004.                        29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500                                                                        Sounds about right for a 31 footer?                                                                       Thoughts?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        		 	   		                             |
33401|33392|2016-03-15 13:28:36|jpronk1|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I have a 2.2l Kubota from a refer unit and I kept the mounts. They look and feel like hockey pucks with a hole drilled through them. I would be tempted to try that.  James  Sent from my iPhone|
33402|33392|2016-03-15 17:13:46|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Sounds good. Go for it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : So the diesel mechanic has a Yanmar 3tnv82a from a genset. It has five hours on it, literally. He bought it off a customer who had theirs replaced under warranty, then repaired it. The repair was very simple, although I can't remember what it was off the top of my head. He is offering it to me for $1,800.  He said it is a 2004. 29.4 HP @ 3000 rpm, 14.8 hp @ 1500 Sounds about right for a 31 footer?  Thoughts? |
33403|33392|2016-03-15 17:14:55|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Twin disc is a far better gear box than a Hurth,  and cheaper .|
33404|33392|2016-03-15 17:18:51|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Last year  a plastic boat was sunk, when its mounts broke, off the Great Barrier reef, and the loose engine punched  a hole in the hull. Crew was rescued, barely.Make sure you are relying on something more than just rubber to hold your  engine in.|
33405|33392|2016-03-15 17:26:02|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|This doesn't help you when the engine breaks loose and is rolling around in the cabin. I have solid mounts in my metal boat .A bit loud, but bearable for the last 32  years.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put something together yourself.  Darren   Thoughts?    |
33406|33392|2016-03-15 17:27:40|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Tried that, didn't work . Nothing but rubber holding things down|
33407|33392|2016-03-15 21:47:13|mkriley48|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|this engine has a constant speed injector pump on it meant for one speed and you need a variable speed injector pump which will cost about the same as the engine. call the dealer before you put down any money.mike|
33408|33392|2016-03-15 22:41:03|theboilerflue|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I would say thats on the cusp of light side for horse power. http://www.yanmarindustrial.eu/theme/yanmarportal/uploadedFiles/Industrial/productDownloads/Diesel%20Engines/TNV%20Series%20v0115.pdfAnd after all that money it's still a yanmar. It still has that stupid little expensive secondary filter with that awful bleeder screw that fails when you look at it the wrong way and that stupid little cam driven lift pump that has three or four gaskets that will fail and let air in intermittently.Yanmar tends to over rate all their stuff. They seem to be very optmistic, look at the fuel comsumption curve they're claiming in this pdf above, apparently there's almost no difference running between 1400rpm and 3000rpm. Right? like what? when you're running it with no load maybe. Most other comsumbtion curves I've looked at are something along the lines of a bell curve - not almost a straight line till it gets to max rpm.This engine at least is used in excavator and john deere lawn tractors so the parts may be somewhat easier and cheaper to come across. Usually all the<i><b> </b></i>peripheral stuff fails on yanmars, or at least that's what I worked on for customers, simple stuff that if the quality of the material was just a little bit better or they didn't try to cram it all into a tiny compact engine. Even just the quality of the metal for the bolts is kinda crappy and they round and strip way too easy. I wouldn't touch a yanmar with a ten foot pole, putting a tranny onto that is going to cost you nearly as much as the engine, after the adaptor plate, and drive plate, so definately take that into consideration, you may find something better for the same price. And yeah those mounts are total crap - I just had a friend tear two of his apart, there is nothing but rubber holding the two side together and even when they aren't broken they are way too bouncy to have any sort of proper alignment. It's almost like they are the microsoft of boat engines - completely mind bogeling that anyone would ever give them any money for the crap they churn out but yet one of the most prolific manufactures in the field. I think it has something to do with marketing - and people are just too fucking dumb to realise that is should be way better and all these problems just shouldn't be. |
33409|33392|2016-03-16 10:12:37|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> So Haidan, what brand of engines do you recommend, that are still common enough to be able to find parts for them reasonably inexpensively ?MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:41:02 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   I would say thats on the cusp of light side for horse power. http://www.yanmarindustrial.eu/theme/yanmarportal/uploadedFiles/Industrial/productDownloads/Diesel%20Engines/TNV%20Series%20v0115.pdfAnd after all that money it's still a yanmar. It still has that stupid little expensive secondary filter with that awful bleeder screw that fails when you look at it the wrong way and that stupid little cam driven lift pump that has three or four gaskets that will fail and let air in intermittently.Yanmar tends to over rate all their stuff. They seem to be very optmistic, look at the fuel comsumption curve they're claiming in this pdf above, apparently there's almost no difference running between 1400rpm and 3000rpm. Right? like what? when you're running it with no load maybe. Most other comsumbtion curves I've looked at are something along the lines of a bell curve - not almost a straight line till it gets to max rpm.This engine at least is used in excavator and john deere lawn tractors so the parts may be somewhat easier and cheaper to come across. Usually all the<i><b> </b></i>peripheral stuff fails on yanmars, or at least that's what I worked on for customers, simple stuff that if the quality of the material was just a little bit better or they didn't try to cram it all into a tiny compact engine. Even just the quality of the metal for the bolts is kinda crappy and they round and strip way too easy. I wouldn't touch a yanmar with a ten foot pole, putting a tranny onto that is going to cost you nearly as much as the engine, after the adaptor plate, and drive plate, so definately take that into consideration, you may find something better for the same price. And yeah those mounts are total crap - I just had a friend tear two of his apart, there is nothing but rubber holding the two side together and even when they aren't broken they are way too bouncy to have any sort of proper alignment. It's almost like they are the microsoft of boat engines - completely mind bogeling that anyone would ever give them any money for the crap they churn out but yet one of the most prolific manufactures in the field. I think it has something to do with marketing - and people are just too fucking dumb to realise that is should be way better and all these problems just shouldn't be.                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1629616722 .ygrps-yiv-1629616722ExternalClass 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33410|33392|2016-03-16 10:39:34|Brian Stannard|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Any engine based on a Kubota block - Beta, Nanni, et all. On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                  So Haidan, what brand of engines do you recommend, that are still common enough to be able to find parts for them reasonably inexpensively ?MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:41:02 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   I would say thats on the cusp of light side for horse power. http://www.yanmarindustrial.eu/theme/yanmarportal/uploadedFiles/Industrial/productDownloads/Diesel%20Engines/TNV%20Series%20v0115.pdfAnd after all that money it's still a yanmar. It still has that stupid little expensive secondary filter with that awful bleeder screw that fails when you look at it the wrong way and that stupid little cam driven lift pump that has three or four gaskets that will fail and let air in intermittently.Yanmar tends to over rate all their stuff. They seem to be very optmistic, look at the fuel comsumption curve they're claiming in this pdf above, apparently there's almost no difference running between 1400rpm and 3000rpm. Right? like what? when you're running it with no load maybe. Most other comsumbtion curves I've looked at are something along the lines of a bell curve - not almost a straight line till it gets to max rpm.This engine at least is used in excavator and john deere lawn tractors so the parts may be somewhat easier and cheaper to come across. Usually all the<i><b> </b></i>peripheral stuff fails on yanmars, or at least that's what I worked on for customers, simple stuff that if the quality of the material was just a little bit better or they didn't try to cram it all into a tiny compact engine. Even just the quality of the metal for the bolts is kinda crappy and they round and strip way too easy. I wouldn't touch a yanmar with a ten foot pole, putting a tranny onto that is going to cost you nearly as much as the engine, after the adaptor plate, and drive plate, so definately take that into consideration, you may find something better for the same price. And yeah those mounts are total crap - I just had a friend tear two of his apart, there is nothing but rubber holding the two side together and even when they aren't broken they are way too bouncy to have any sort of proper alignment. It's almost like they are the microsoft of boat engines - completely mind bogeling that anyone would ever give them any money for the crap they churn out but yet one of the most prolific manufactures in the field. I think it has something to do with marketing - and people are just too fucking dumb to realise that is should be way better and all these problems just shouldn't be.                                  		 	   		                                          -- CheersBrian  |
33411|33392|2016-03-16 11:44:46|Darren Bos|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|                   Brent, I'm not sure if this is just personal preference, or maybe     you've managed to make your hard-mounted engine quieter that ours     was.  However, after living with it for a while I won't go back to     those levels of noise and vibration.          Certainly a rigidly mounted engine is very secure.  However, you can     get flexible mounts that are captive, which means that even if the     rubber fails the engine cannot break loose.  Nothing is guaranteed     in a marine environment, but with captive mounts, that never have to     take the loads from propeller thrust, I'd be comfortable.  I've seen     two failed soft mounts, but in those cases it was a sheared bolt,     not the rubber that failed.  In both cases it was likely due to a     misaligned engine that caused the bolts to fatigue and fail.  I     think this happens when you have a soft mounted engine mounted     straight to a propeller shaft and you don't regularly check     alignment.  To me it seems like the two ways to go are to either     entirely hard mounted and go straight to a shaft, or have soft     mounts and a CV+thrust bearing so that all the engine mounts are     doing is holding the engine down and any misalignment is taken up by     the CV joint.          Why did the CV joint you tried not work?          Darren          On 16-03-15 02:26 PM,       brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            This doesn't help you when the engine breaks loose and is               rolling around in the cabin.                I have solid mounts in my metal boat .A bit loud, but               bearable for the last 32  years.                                                        ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...>               wrote :                                               The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use                 a CV joint                 and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't                 have to                 absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts                 which                 decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you                 need                 something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted                 engine in a                 metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the                 noise and                 vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing                 combination is                 available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of                 course put                 something together yourself.                                  Darren                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Thoughts?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            |
33412|33392|2016-03-16 15:54:33|opuspaul|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I have my engine mounted with the hard rubber hockey puck mounts (Bushings DF-100) and the noise and vibration isn't so bad.   These mounts are cheap and last decades.  I think they are a good compromise.  Unlike many of the soft flexible mounts, I have never seen one come apart.  I think if you had a steady fuel drip on them it may attack the rubber but you shouldn't have steady fuel drips.  I just put Lanacote on them which lasts a very long time and unlike many mineral based greases is safe with just about any material.  I think putting in CV joints and thrust bearings is putting in more complexity and adding more things that can go wrong.   My friend had a thrust bearing on his boat with a flexible engine mount and he got a rope caught in his prop.   It cracked and broke the housing on the thrust bearing.   This was a big problem since he was in a remote area.   If he just had one of those plastic drive line savers in his shaft coupling, it would have been more robust and withstood the stress or just separated.  If it separated he could have just removed it and rebolted the coupling together.  The drivelines marketed for boats like the Aquadrive systems are extremely expensive.  The ones I have seen on boats (for whatever reason) are often badly corroded. Cheers, Paul|
33413|33392|2016-03-16 19:29:13|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Yes, you definitely want captive mounts, and should avoid like the plague any rubber mounts which are not captive. Perko has good ones .  Keeping a solid mounted engine quiet and vibration free requires the most solid , overbuilt engine beds you can come up with. The more solid the engine beds,  the quieter, and the less vibration you  get.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : Brent, I'm not sure if this is just personal preference, or maybe you've managed to make your hard-mounted engine quieter that ours was.  However, after living with it for a while I won't go back to those levels of noise and vibration.  Certainly a rigidly mounted engine is very secure.  However, you can get flexible mounts that are captive, which means that even if the rubber fails the engine cannot break loose.  Nothing is guaranteed in a marine environment, but with captive mounts, that never have to take the loads from propeller thrust, I'd be comfortable.  I've seen two failed soft mounts, but in those cases it was a sheared bolt, not the rubber that failed.  In both cases it was likely due to a misaligned engine that caused the bolts to fatigue and fail.  I think this happens when you have a soft mounted engine mounted straight to a propeller shaft and you don't regularly check alignment.  To me it seems like the two ways to go are to either entirely hard mounted and go straight to a shaft, or have soft mounts and a CV+thrust bearing so that all the engine mounts are doing is holding the engine down and any misalignment is taken up by the CV joint.  Why did the CV joint you tried not work?  Darren On 16-03-15 02:26 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   This doesn't help you when the engine breaks loose and is rolling around in the cabin.  I have solid mounts in my metal boat .A bit loud, but bearable for the last 32  years.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :  The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put something together yourself.  Darren  Thoughts?      |
33414|33392|2016-03-17 04:31:09|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|There is always needed at least SOME -effectively damped- elbowroom to move around within for an orthodox combusting piston engine if You want prevent its constructively inavoidable vibrations from getting Your whole hull into oscillation like the corpus of a string bass.Bullet proof close range captivity of the mounts is by far more important than effective vibration regime for an oceangoing yacht, though.Risking to have a probably hot engine loosened and kicked around all over the place with nearly no way to securely catch it or have it falling around for hours or days in draughty conditions is not an option in any way. A way to reduce vibes without rubber or fancy composit stuff from the automotive branch might be to build "soft" iron mounts, constructed like loops or coach springs to enable this part of the mounting mimic to kill at least some range of vibrations by the movement inside the iron mounts.It does work, saw two pairs of leaf springs perfectly working as damping mounts, hard as rock, with a pretty rocky Sabb one cylinder double shaft (variable pitch) in a riveted alu sailor from Norway, but there is some trial and error to find the right combination of dimension and form for the very engine and hull situation, I'm afraid.G_BAm 17.03.2016 um 00:29 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                          Yes, you definitely want captive mounts, and should avoid like the plague any rubber mounts which are not captive. Perko has good ones .  Keeping a solid mounted engine quiet and vibration free requires the most solid , overbuilt engine beds you can come up with. The more solid the engine beds,  the quieter, and the less vibration you  get.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : Brent, I'm not sure if this is just personal preference, or maybe you've managed to make your hard-mounted engine quieter that ours was.  However, after living with it for a while I won't go back to those levels of noise and vibration.  Certainly a rigidly mounted engine is very secure.  However, you can get flexible mounts that are captive, which means that even if the rubber fails the engine cannot break loose.  Nothing is guaranteed in a marine environment, but with captive mounts, that never have to take the loads from propeller thrust, I'd be comfortable.  I've seen two failed soft mounts, but in those cases it was a sheared bolt, not the rubber that failed.  In both cases it was likely due to a misaligned engine that caused the bolts to fatigue and fail.  I think this happens when you have a soft mounted engine mounted straight to a propeller shaft and you don't regularly check alignment.  To me it seems like the two ways to go are to either entirely hard mounted and go straight to a shaft, or have soft mounts and a CV+thrust bearing so that all the engine mounts are doing is holding the engine down and any misalignment is taken up by the CV joint.  Why did the CV joint you tried not work?  Darren On 16-03-15 02:26 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:  This doesn't help you when the engine breaks loose and is rolling around in the cabin.  I have solid mounts in my metal boat .A bit loud, but bearable for the last 32  years.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :  The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put something together yourself.  Darren  Thoughts?                                |
33415|33392|2016-03-17 09:36:05|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Making damping springs?  Constructing something that accidentally has a sympathetic vibration at some engine RPM is too much of a risk.   What about simply using a material with more natural damping, in large quantities, like big, soft, tough wood beams or laminated blocks of plywood with ridiculously large washers on through-bolts.   Until the bolts actually break, it would have to chew huge holes in the wood to get the washers to come back through the holes.   If wood is not to your liking, a bulk billet of plastic perhaps.   It would be a compromise between solid mounting to the hull and "hard" engine mounts that have a lot less volume of energy-damping material.  If the hull is prone to vibrate like the corpus of a string instrument at some engine speed it will likely be in response to some low-frequency component of the engine vibration and this won't cure that.  Wood will remove a lot of the energy from the high frequency components of the vibration.   The manual for my engine, from 1956, actually says, bolt it to wood, so this is really not such a radical idea.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:30:59 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   There is always needed at least SOME -effectively damped- elbowroom to move around within for an orthodox combusting piston engine if You want prevent its constructively inavoidable vibrations from getting Your whole hull into oscillation like the corpus of a string bass.Bullet proof close range captivity of the mounts is by far more important than effective vibration regime for an oceangoing yacht, though.Risking to have a probably hot engine loosened and kicked around all over the place with nearly no way to securely catch it or have it falling around for hours or days in draughty conditions is not an option in any way. A way to reduce vibes without rubber or fancy composit stuff from the automotive branch might be to build "soft" iron mounts, constructed like loops or coach springs to enable this part of the mounting mimic to kill at least some range of vibrations by the movement inside the iron mounts.It does work, saw two pairs of leaf springs perfectly working as damping mounts, hard as rock, with a pretty rocky Sabb one cylinder double shaft (variable pitch) in a riveted alu sailor from Norway, but there is some trial and error to find the right combination of dimension and form for the very engine and hull situation, I'm afraid.G_BAm 17.03.2016 um 00:29 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                          Yes, you definitely want captive mounts, and should avoid like the plague any rubber mounts which are not captive. Perko has good ones .  Keeping a solid mounted engine quiet and vibration free requires the most solid , overbuilt engine beds you can come up with. The more solid the engine beds,  the quieter, and the less vibration you  get.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : Brent, I'm not sure if this is just personal preference, or maybe you've managed to make your hard-mounted engine quieter that ours was.  However, after living with it for a while I won't go back to those levels of noise and vibration.  Certainly a rigidly mounted engine is very secure.  However, you can get flexible mounts that are captive, which means that even if the rubber fails the engine cannot break loose.  Nothing is guaranteed in a marine environment, but with captive mounts, that never have to take the loads from propeller thrust, I'd be comfortable.  I've seen two failed soft mounts, but in those cases it was a sheared bolt, not the rubber that failed.  In both cases it was likely due to a misaligned engine that caused the bolts to fatigue and fail.  I think this happens when you have a soft mounted engine mounted straight to a propeller shaft and you don't regularly check alignment.  To me it seems like the two ways to go are to either entirely hard mounted and go straight to a shaft, or have soft mounts and a CV+thrust bearing so that all the engine mounts are doing is holding the engine down and any misalignment is taken up by the CV joint.  Why did the CV joint you tried not work?  Darren On 16-03-15 02:26 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:  This doesn't help you when the engine breaks loose and is rolling around in the cabin.  I have solid mounts in my metal boat .A bit loud, but bearable for the last 32  years.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote :  The remaining option is to have soft mounts and then use a CV joint and thrust bearing.  This way, the engine mounts don't have to absorb the propeller thrust and you can use soft mounts which decrease vibration and noise.  Whichever way you go, you need something to absorb vibration, we had a rigidly mounted engine in a metal hull and I will never go back to that again, the noise and vibration were terrible.  The CV-joint-thrust-bearing combination is available from Python Drive or Aquadrive, or you can of course put something together yourself.  Darren  Thoughts?                                                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1395962664 .ygrps-yiv-1395962664ExternalClass 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33416|33392|2016-03-17 21:31:56|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I have done that with 3/4 inch  poly sheet ,with plastic hose barb bushings, where the bolts pass thru it.Has worked well for the last 32 years.|
33417|33392|2016-03-18 15:59:22|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Well, but then it is ... wood.  Nuthin' hardcore steelies do want to have down in their bilge, right?  And with wood, experience shows, there comes even more the risk of not dampening but amplifying a certain spectrum of the vibrations.  How to put in the iron wind isn't an easy task, never was, what is seen when taking a look at the vastly differing solutions and philosophies, actually down to "saildrive" units with half a m2 of further leak built in the hull by purpose.  I prefer those hydro mounts, either well captive or at least secured with a second constructive part to make them captive for sure, and I put those in wooden, composite or metal hulls alike with good results, related to weight and construction of the engine - three or fife cylinders tending to a wider range of weird frequencies than four or six piston ones, no matter how well balanced or compensated their crankshafts were, and the lighter the engine, the weirder the movements and frequencies.  But hydro mounts are a solution you probably won't be able to repair with a hammer, some chicken wire, slightly outdated epoxy and the power burner of Your stove on a remote island, I'm afraid.  Cheers G_B   Am 17.03.2016 um 14:36 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   >  > Making damping springs?  Constructing something that accidentally has a sympathetic vibration at some engine RPM is too much of a risk.   What about simply using a material with more natural damping, in large quantities, like big, soft, tough wood beams or laminated blocks of plywood with ridiculously large washers on through-bolts.   Until the bolts actually break, it would have to chew huge holes in the wood to get the washers to come back through the holes.   If wood is not to your liking, a bulk billet of plastic perhaps.   It would be a compromise between solid mounting to the hull and "hard" engine mounts that have a lot less volume of energy-damping material.  If the hull is prone to vibrate like the corpus of a string instrument at some engine speed it will likely be in response to some low-frequency component of the engine vibration and this won't cure that.  Wood will remove a lot of the energy from the high frequency components of the vibration.   The manual for my engine, from 1956, actually says, bolt it to wood, so this is really not such a radical idea.    >  > Matt  > |
33418|33392|2016-03-18 16:07:42|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Well, but then it is ... wood.  Nuthin' hardcore steelies do want to have down in their bilge, right?  And with wood, experience shows, there comes an equal risk of amplifying a certain spectrum of the vibrations.  How to put in the iron wind isn't an easy task, never was, what is seen when taking a look at the vastly differing solutions and philosophies, actually down to "saildrive" units with half a m2 of further leak built in the hull by purpose just to get rid of the trouble with the alignmen and those bloody issues with soft mounts and a hard shaft to be met.  I prefer those hydro mounts, either well captive or at least secured with a second constructive part to make them captive for sure, and I put those in wooden, composite or metal hulls alike with good results, related to weight and construction of the engine - three or fife cylinders tending to a wider range of weird frequencies than four or six piston ones, no matter how well balanced or compensated their crankshafts were, and the lighter the engine, the weirder the movements and frequencies.  But hydro mounts are a solution you probably won't be able to repair with a hammer, some chicken wire, slightly outdated epoxy and the power burner of Your stove on a remote island, I'm afraid.  Cheers G_B  Am 17.03.2016 um 14:36 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   >  > Making damping springs?  Constructing something that accidentally has a sympathetic vibration at some engine RPM is too much of a risk.   What about simply using a material with more natural damping, in large quantities, like big, soft, tough wood beams or laminated blocks of plywood with ridiculously large washers on through-bolts.   Until the bolts actually break, it would have to chew huge holes in the wood to get the washers to come back through the holes.   If wood is not to your liking, a bulk billet of plastic perhaps.   It would be a compromise between solid mounting to the hull and "hard" engine mounts that have a lot less volume of energy-damping material.  If the hull is prone to vibrate like the corpus of a string instrument at some engine speed it will likely be in response to some low-frequency component of the engine vibration and this won't cure that.  Wood will remove a lot of the energy from the high frequency components of the vibration.   The manual for my engine, from 1956, actually says, bolt it to wood, so this is really not such a radical idea.    >  > Matt |
33419|33392|2016-03-20 15:01:44|theboilerflue|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Basically any manufacturer who doesn't almost exclusively market to  yachties but instead makes industrial machinery around the world. Isuzu,  Kubota, Mitsubishi. Volvo parts are a little hard to find as are  perkins. I've never liked volvos much either, mostly they're just weird  although designed to be something you can work on yourself at least.|
33420|33420|2016-03-21 19:45:18|aguysailing|Epoxy cop or...|"Epoxycop has copper in it so when it comes in contact with bare steel it will cause galvanic corrosion"  ... from the manufacturerSo, my question is why use it?  Is there something else?  You will not be able to avoid some epoxy cop getting onto your bare steel if there are small dings, and scratches down to your bare hull that you could miss next time you re-coat your epoxy cop...?|
33421|33392|2016-03-22 14:49:15|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|With rare exceptions, Volvos are disasters. A friend wanted to change his Volvo for a Yanmar. Given their bad reputation, no one wants a Volvo ,but everyone who has one,  wants parts. So he advertised and sold it as parts, and got $1500 out of it,|
33422|33392|2016-03-22 15:22:22|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|My experience: the newer the engines, the more trouble (except in buying parts - there it's the opposite).Even for only slightly technical owners I'd recommend prefering a thoroughly and well overhauled/rebuilt engine with 15 to 25 years (or more) over a new one and taking a weekend's class with their mechanic.New engines fuck way to much around with waste gas recirculation and filtering and mapping and computerized controlling and shit like that - plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other alternative fuels.So, getting a new engine and stripping it from all this shit will cost You more work and knowledge (to get the shortcuts working) than getting a preloved one without all the engineer's jerkoffs AND getting it very carefully overhauled.Am 22.03.2016 um 19:49 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                          With rare exceptions, Volvos are disasters. A friend wanted to change his Volvo for a Yanmar. Given their bad reputation, no one wants a Volvo ,but everyone who has one,  wants parts. So he advertised and sold it as parts, and got $1500 out of it,                                                                   |
33423|33392|2016-03-22 15:37:11|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Can you elaborate on how marine diesel is different from the diesel these engines are designed to run on -- which is what diesel exactly?    >plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply >to   marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other   >alternative fuels Is there for instance more wax content in marine diesel / a higher gel-temperature / higher cold filter plugging point ?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuelMatt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:21:56 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   My experience: the newer the engines, the more trouble (except in buying parts - there it's the opposite).Even for only slightly technical owners I'd recommend prefering a thoroughly and well overhauled/rebuilt engine with 15 to 25 years (or more) over a new one and taking a weekend's class with their mechanic.New engines fuck way to much around with waste gas recirculation and filtering and mapping and computerized controlling and shit like that - plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other alternative fuels.So, getting a new engine and stripping it from all this shit will cost You more work and knowledge (to get the shortcuts working) than getting a preloved one without all the engineer's jerkoffs AND getting it very carefully overhauled.Am 22.03.2016 um 19:49 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                          With rare exceptions, Volvos are disasters. A friend wanted to change his Volvo for a Yanmar. Given their bad reputation, no one wants a Volvo ,but everyone who has one,  wants parts. So he advertised and sold it as parts, and got $1500 out of it,                                                                                                   <!-- #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-760008963 .ygrps-yiv-760008963ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-760008963ecxad p { }  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33424|33392|2016-03-22 19:27:23|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I was offered at a lot of places around the Med and even more so in the Red Sea and East Africa "diesel" which consisted of several uncombustible substances beside the combustible fractions, as there were a whole lot of different grits of sand and sludge, water, grease (partly still in lumps), engine oil, hydraulic and condensor oils, brake fluid, all sorts of (mostly mineral) dilutants and thinners, sometimes paint, and last not least gasoline in more than droplets in it;and to mess up things further we sometimes felt forced to add our own sort of poison (comercial toilet cleaners work well) to prevent those oil-eating algae and bacteriae which could turn a tank full of diesel into gum in less than a month under subtropical conditions.If in any way possible nobody would buy this shit; but sometimes there is this stuff or rowing, so at some point You'll probably end up with at least some amounts of fishy bunker-oil to have an engine at all, just in case of.You definitely can part sand by stashing diesel in jerrycans and waiting till it sinks to the bottom before You put it ever so slowly into the tank.You even could take the shit directly out of the jerrycan and avoid contaminating Your tank with it ... given You're at least prepared with some sort of device to deliver diesel "airfree" from the can to the pump; my device has a ballpump to start the flow and two parallel filters together with an Y valve to have a back-up-line while cleaning out the deteriorated filter. I bring this for transfer sailing with good success.Than, You could also part water with those special funnels, made for exactly this purpose.No way to get anything else out of the lot without a refinery, though: You got to deal with it in one or other way - or better said, Your fuel pump and Your engine got to deal with it. And than, there is salad oil, like olive oil or sunflower oil or palm oil, dirt cheap and a reliable source of liquid energy for the right (old) diesel engine, as far as You'll be able to start it (what we would usually do by diesel, and change to salad oil after warmup)Some places sell diesel in DIN-EN car quality, some distinctively don't.Marine diesel in South America generally was better than marine-diesel some place in the Baltic or anywhere in Africa, for example, not to mention the pretty obscure soup we once were offered in Port Headland, WA, something I really didn't want to have anywhere near the engine, but got 50 single liters of salad oil instead at a local supermarket - the engine was a Faryman prechamber out of the seventies and even started on it, after considerable preheat.Modern direct injecting diesels with common rail pumps and injecting pressures of up to some thousand bar instead aren't even able to forward this sort of stuff properly without mere preheating up to about 90 deg Celsius, and even then the direct injection, designed for sulfur-free diesel in controlled DIN-EN quality isn't able to cope with salad oil, and even less to cope with liquid waste of the proveniences I first described - while, for example, the cast iron Mercedes OM 601 (prechamber) does well with anything slightly combustible.It isn't mandatory to have a prechamber, though, more interesting is the way the diesel is set under pressure and injected: the OM 602, a direct injection head over the 2.9 Liter 5 cyl engine, also does well with a lot of abusive sorts of non-diesel oil, 'cause there is a "conservative" low pressure pump working to inject the stuff.So, this is what I was refering to by "stripping a new engine of all this shit": get rid of the high pressure pumps and the computerized mapping that comes with them, put on a "conservative" pump and "normal" injecting valves instead of the high end jerkers together with an outlet with no frilly recircling, and voila: there is it, the reliable power plant for anywhere You want to sail towards ...Cheers G_BAm 22.03.2016 um 20:37 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                            Can you elaborate on how marine diesel is different from the diesel these engines are designed to run on -- which is what diesel exactly?   >plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply >to  marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other  >alternative fuelsIs there for instance more wax content in marine diesel / a higher gel-temperature / higher cold filter plugging point ?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuelMatt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:21:56 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   My experience: the newer the engines, the more trouble (except in buying parts - there it's the opposite).Even for only slightly technical owners I'd recommend prefering a thoroughly and well overhauled/rebuilt engine with 15 to 25 years (or more) over a new one and taking a weekend's class with their mechanic.New engines fuck way to much around with waste gas recirculation and filtering and mapping and computerized controlling and shit like that - plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other alternative fuels.So, getting a new engine and stripping it from all this shit will cost You more work and knowledge (to get the shortcuts working) than getting a preloved one without all the engineer's jerkoffs AND getting it very carefully overhauled.Am 22.03.2016 um 19:49 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                         With rare exceptions, Volvos are disasters. A friend wanted to change his Volvo for a Yanmar. Given their bad reputation, no one wants a Volvo ,but everyone who has one,  wants parts. So he advertised and sold it as parts, and got $1500 out of it,                                                                                                    		 	   		                             |
33425|33392|2016-03-22 19:40:56|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-76576886 .ygrps-yiv-76576886EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    There were some independent gas stations around Toronto, Ontario in the late 1980s or early 1990s buying gasoline from a distributor who was using bulk gasoline as a dillutant for waste toxic solvents.  An investigation shut that down  but it would be unsurprising if this was not happening everywhere corruption is common.  What you are saying makes a lot of sense.   I have read elsewhere that sand and water are common contaminants in diesel.  Matt  "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:             I was offered at a lot of places around the Med and even more so in the Red Sea and East Africa "diesel" which consisted of several uncombustible substances beside the combustible fractions, as there were a whole lot of different grits of sand and sludge, water,  grease (partly still in lumps), engine oil, hydraulic and condensor oils, brake fluid, all sorts of (mostly mineral) dilutants and thinners, sometimes paint, and last not least gasoline in more than droplets in it;   and to mess up things further we sometimes felt forced to add our own sort of poison (comercial toilet cleaners work well) to prevent those oil-eating algae and bacteriae which could turn a tank full of diesel into gum in less than a month under subtropical  conditions.   If in any way possible nobody would buy this shit; but sometimes there is this stuff or rowing, so at some point You'll probably end up with at least some amounts of fishy bunker-oil to have an engine at all, just in case of.   You definitely can part sand by stashing diesel in jerrycans and waiting till it sinks to the bottom before You put it ever so slowly into the tank.   You even could take the shit directly out of the jerrycan and avoid contaminating Your tank with it ... given You're at least prepared with some sort of device to deliver diesel "airfree" from the can to the pump; my device has a ballpump to start the  flow and two parallel filters together with an Y valve to have a back-up-line while cleaning out the deteriorated filter. I bring this for transfer sailing with good success.   Than, You could also part water with those special funnels, made for exactly this purpose.   No way to get anything else out of the lot without a refinery, though: You got to deal with it in one or other way - or better said, Your fuel pump and Your engine got to deal with it.    And than, there is salad oil, like olive oil or sunflower oil or palm oil, dirt cheap and a reliable source of liquid energy for the right (old) diesel engine, as far as You'll be able to start it (what we would usually do by diesel, and change to salad  oil after warmup)   Some places sell diesel in DIN-EN car quality, some distinctively don't.   Marine diesel in South America generally was better than marine-diesel some place in the Baltic or anywhere in Africa, for example, not to mention the pretty obscure soup we once were offered in Port Headland, WA, something I really didn't want to have  anywhere near the engine, but got 50 single liters of salad oil instead at a local supermarket - the engine was a Faryman prechamber out of the seventies and even started on it, after considerable preheat.   Modern direct injecting diesels with common rail pumps and injecting pressures of up to some thousand bar instead aren't even able to forward this sort of stuff properly without mere preheating up to about 90 deg Celsius, and even then the direct injection,  designed for sulfur-free diesel in controlled DIN-EN quality isn't able to cope with salad oil, and even less to cope with liquid waste of the proveniences I first described - while, for example, the cast iron Mercedes OM 601 (prechamber) does well with anything  slightly combustible.   It isn't mandatory to have a prechamber, though, more interesting is the way the diesel is set under pressure and injected: the OM 602, a direct injection head over the 2.9 Liter 5 cyl engine, also does well with a lot of abusive sorts of non-diesel oil,  'cause there is a "conservative" low pressure pump working to inject the stuff.   So, this is what I was refering to by "stripping a new engine of all this shit": get rid of the high pressure pumps and the computerized mapping that comes with them, put on a "conservative" pump and "normal" injecting valves instead of the high end jerkers  together with an outlet with no frilly recircling, and voila: there is it, the reliable power plant for anywhere You want to sail towards ...   Cheers G_B       Am 22.03.2016 um 20:37 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:         Can you elaborate on how marine diesel is different from the diesel these engines are designed to run on -- which is what diesel exactly?    >plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply  >to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other  >alternative fuels  Is there for instance more wax content in marine diesel / a higher gel-temperature / higher cold filter plugging point ?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel  Matt      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:21:56 +0100 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset         My experience: the newer the engines, the more trouble (except in buying parts - there it's the opposite).   Even for only slightly technical owners I'd recommend prefering a thoroughly and well overhauled/rebuilt engine with 15 to 25 years (or more) over a new one and taking a weekend's class with their mechanic.   New engines fuck way to much around with waste gas recirculation and filtering and mapping and computerized controlling and shit like that - plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer  salad oil or other alternative fuels.   So, getting a new engine and stripping it from all this shit will cost You more work and knowledge (to get the shortcuts working) than getting a preloved one without all the engineer's jerkoffs AND getting it very carefully overhauled.       Am 22.03.2016 um 19:49 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:     With rare exceptions, Volvos are disasters. A friend wanted to change his Volvo for a Yanmar. Given their bad reputation, no one wants a Volvo ,but everyone who has one,  wants parts. So he advertised and sold it as parts, and got $1500  out of it,                               <!-- #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ad  	{margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ad  	{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-76576886x_ygrp-lc 	{font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-76576886 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33426|33392|2016-03-23 06:38:50|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Diesel from car-fillingstations generally turned out as the premium stuff - for premium prices, though.In Germany I used to order "Heizöl EL", (extra light heating oil) what merely is diesel besides of some more sulfur contained, and taxed by far less while colored red - the dealers aren't allowed to fill "vehicles" anymore, though, and even jerrycans aren't containments to be filled officially any more these days, so in Germany You're forced to have some sort of house tank to get some at all.In Italian public ports there are sometimes still fillingstations to find which sell diesel on the one side to cars and on the other side over the docking wall to ships - no probs with this stuff, obviously.Marinas and private ports are different animals, though - the managers and filling station staff often get payed in a way what makes a second income mandatory, which now could come from the cheaper stuff they order - still sold as "Diesel" for normal prices, while amounts of stuff did find their way into this soup before sale which You wouldn't expect to be contained in the first place. It's just a matter of prices payed.Southern Italy is known for decades in whole Europe as the cheapest way to rid You of doubtful waste in otherwise unsolvable amounts; Your befriended mafia clan or 'Ndrangheta family will fully take care of professionally, as long as the prices are worth it. And it still will be way cheaper than any proper disposal. One of the ways these people wash their doubtful cash from trafficking all sorts of shady stuff by the billion are refineries and fuel trade. So, why simply dump it in the Med like they do with lots of other waste including nuclear radiants when You still could sell it and make an extra Euro?Voilà: circle closed.In Greece, the longlasting EU- and German austerity-terror following the bankster crisis led to an amount of poverty not easily imaginable for a formerly civilised Nation within the EU, what leds on very short ways down to big scale Diesel thievery in refineries and bulk stations, which would be refilled to the former volume with surface water, often near shore with salt water.The diesel trade and resulting qualities in Greece sometimes compare closer to Nigeria than to other EU nations these days.Turkey is known as the biggest trader for Daesh (ISIL) oil products, often produced under uncontrolled and uncontrollable preconditions for obvious reasons - You can't control an industrial size refining process properly under frequent U.S. drone shelling, not even the pretty imaginative engineers working under generally Iraqian preconditions for decades can do this.The Turks don't want to ruin their pretty modern fleet of car engines with this stuff, though, more so as fuel trade is a business segment the Sultan Erdogan and his family are said to control; I don't know why, but they still seem to think that there would be some rudimentary residues of reputation left to lose.Thus, it will be sold at the waterfront as lower cost marine-diesel, for some way had to be found to rid 'em again of reasonable amounts of this lot ...You see, it doesn't need to be very complicated to understand why the liquids sold as marine diesel often are anything but the reliable DIN-EN Diesel we use in our cars; in fact it is pretty simple to understand, as far as I'm concerned.Cheers G_BAm 23.03.2016 um 00:40 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                             There were some independent gas stations around Toronto, Ontario in the late 1980s or early 1990s buying gasoline from a distributor who was using bulk gasoline as a dillutant for waste toxic solvents.  An investigation shut that down  but it would be unsurprising if this was not happening everywhere corruption is common.  What you are saying makes a lot of sense.   I have read elsewhere that sand and water are common contaminants in diesel.  Matt  "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:            I was offered at a lot of places around the Med and even more so in the Red Sea and East Africa "diesel" which consisted of several uncombustible substances beside the combustible fractions, as there were a whole lot of different grits of sand and sludge, water,  grease (partly still in lumps), engine oil, hydraulic and condensor oils, brake fluid, all sorts of (mostly mineral) dilutants and thinners, sometimes paint, and last not least gasoline in more than droplets in it;   and to mess up things further we sometimes felt forced to add our own sort of poison (comercial toilet cleaners work well) to prevent those oil-eating algae and bacteriae which could turn a tank full of diesel into gum in less than a month under subtropical  conditions.   If in any way possible nobody would buy this shit; but sometimes there is this stuff or rowing, so at some point You'll probably end up with at least some amounts of fishy bunker-oil to have an engine at all, just in case of.   You definitely can part sand by stashing diesel in jerrycans and waiting till it sinks to the bottom before You put it ever so slowly into the tank.   You even could take the shit directly out of the jerrycan and avoid contaminating Your tank with it ... given You're at least prepared with some sort of device to deliver diesel "airfree" from the can to the pump; my device has a ballpump to start the  flow and two parallel filters together with an Y valve to have a back-up-line while cleaning out the deteriorated filter. I bring this for transfer sailing with good success.   Than, You could also part water with those special funnels, made for exactly this purpose.   No way to get anything else out of the lot without a refinery, though: You got to deal with it in one or other way - or better said, Your fuel pump and Your engine got to deal with it.    And than, there is salad oil, like olive oil or sunflower oil or palm oil, dirt cheap and a reliable source of liquid energy for the right (old) diesel engine, as far as You'll be able to start it (what we would usually do by diesel, and change to salad  oil after warmup)   Some places sell diesel in DIN-EN car quality, some distinctively don't.   Marine diesel in South America generally was better than marine-diesel some place in the Baltic or anywhere in Africa, for example, not to mention the pretty obscure soup we once were offered in Port Headland, WA, something I really didn't want to have  anywhere near the engine, but got 50 single liters of salad oil instead at a local supermarket - the engine was a Faryman prechamber out of the seventies and even started on it, after considerable preheat.   Modern direct injecting diesels with common rail pumps and injecting pressures of up to some thousand bar instead aren't even able to forward this sort of stuff properly without mere preheating up to about 90 deg Celsius, and even then the direct injection,  designed for sulfur-free diesel in controlled DIN-EN quality isn't able to cope with salad oil, and even less to cope with liquid waste of the proveniences I first described - while, for example, the cast iron Mercedes OM 601 (prechamber) does well with anything  slightly combustible.   It isn't mandatory to have a prechamber, though, more interesting is the way the diesel is set under pressure and injected: the OM 602, a direct injection head over the 2.9 Liter 5 cyl engine, also does well with a lot of abusive sorts of non-diesel oil,  'cause there is a "conservative" low pressure pump working to inject the stuff.   So, this is what I was refering to by "stripping a new engine of all this shit": get rid of the high pressure pumps and the computerized mapping that comes with them, put on a "conservative" pump and "normal" injecting valves instead of the high end jerkers  together with an outlet with no frilly recircling, and voila: there is it, the reliable power plant for anywhere You want to sail towards ...   Cheers G_B       Am 22.03.2016 um 20:37 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:        Can you elaborate on how marine diesel is different from the diesel these engines are designed to run on -- which is what diesel exactly?    >plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply  >to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer salad oil or other  >alternative fuels  Is there for instance more wax content in marine diesel / a higher gel-temperature / higher cold filter plugging point ?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel  Matt      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:21:56 +0100 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset         My experience: the newer the engines, the more trouble (except in buying parts - there it's the opposite).   Even for only slightly technical owners I'd recommend prefering a thoroughly and well overhauled/rebuilt engine with 15 to 25 years (or more) over a new one and taking a weekend's class with their mechanic.   New engines fuck way to much around with waste gas recirculation and filtering and mapping and computerized controlling and shit like that - plus their highly elaborated injecting pumps often do not comply to marine diesel qualities - not to mention sheer  salad oil or other alternative fuels.   So, getting a new engine and stripping it from all this shit will cost You more work and knowledge (to get the shortcuts working) than getting a preloved one without all the engineer's jerkoffs AND getting it very carefully overhauled.       Am 22.03.2016 um 19:49 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:     With rare exceptions, Volvos are disasters. A friend wanted to change his Volvo for a Yanmar. Given their bad reputation, no one wants a Volvo ,but everyone who has one,  wants parts. So he advertised and sold it as parts, and got $1500  out of it,                                                          |
33427|33392|2016-03-23 15:08:19|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a life long diesel mechanic, as saying  "A rebuilt diesel is far more reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed, and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with casting problems.A client who did  a lot of casting said no matter how well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other than by running time.|
33428|33392|2016-03-23 16:09:26|Hannu Venermo|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Most engines in the world are diesels, more than half of all new engines  sold. Most have zero problems, for a long time, when maintained.    On 23/03/2016 20:08, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a  > life long diesel mechanic, as saying  "A rebuilt diesel is far more  > reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed,  > and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with  > casting problems.A client who did  a lot of casting said no matter how  > well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other  > than by running time.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33429|33392|2016-03-23 16:23:26|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> After various comments about types and brands of engines, I found this tool:http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/I am not recommending it as a way to find an engine, but saying it was eye-opening how many brands of engines are out there, and how many very large and unsuitable engines are not that expensive.   So far the recommendations have been Mitsubishi, Izusu, Kubota, which includes the other manufacturers who use the same engine as the start... Beta and others.   Giuseppe has said some good things about the Mercedes 601 which is a much larger horsepower than would be suitable for most personal sailboats.   Giuseppe has been complementary of the usefulness of simple low-pressure indirect injection and pre-chambers because they better tolerate fuel variances.   I am keeping all this information tucked away.  No doubt if one decides to repower, local and serendipitous opportunities will likely be better than ordering new, or finding something on a used website, however, looking at the used website will give one a measuring stick to determine that.   There is a lot that can be said about used, however, someone also said that marine engines more often fail from internal corrosion.   If it were an old industrial or closed-loop coolant engine, I can see the logic of preferring old, but, something that was salt water cooled for decades... would that not be a deterioration problem?I was also looking at a lot of non-marine engines, and they have a big fan on them...  If one went for closed-circuit cooling with a skeg, it seems that fan might not be useful?   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:08:48 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   Most engines in the world are diesels, more than half of all new engines  sold. Most have zero problems, for a long time, when maintained.   On 23/03/2016 20:08, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a  > life long diesel mechanic, as saying  "A rebuilt diesel is far more  > reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed,  > and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with  > casting problems.A client who did  a lot of casting said no matter how  > well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other  > than by running time.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                                  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1044892998ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1044892998ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1044892998ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1044892998ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1044892998ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1044892998ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1044892998 .ygrps-yiv-1044892998ExternalClass 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33430|33392|2016-03-23 19:40:46|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Matt, You're right being worried about corrosion when it comes to raw water cooled engines with some neglect or having sat some time unused without proper flushing.A lot of engines which weren't thought for boat use in the first place like all Mercedes engines I ever pulled out of boats were marinised with closed circuit cooling, often as well with a dry exhaust.No excessive corrosion problems with those, usually, despite the water injecting metal part of the exhaust if a wet one was used - as long as they didn't sit in flooded bilges, though.Mercedes diesel engines up to about 1993 have cast iron blocks and heads, conservative prechamber technic and easy peasy injection and injecting valves, which makes them nearly undestroyable tanks no matter what sort of abuse in terms of fuel You do to them, but they're heavy buggers all along.Very good and reliable engines, apart of the elder iron cast Mercedes', would be the 1.6 liter VW natural aspirated prechamber diesels (Code JP) used in the Golf II and Jetta during the eighties and nineties, and those are very very cheap, at least over here in Europe because those were built by the million.Using Code JR, MF or 1V bodys (turbo versions) with JP heads and injection is possible while something for somebody who does know what he's doing.Regular timing belt change mandatory!A nice, very forgiving and astonishingly economic little engine would be the Fiat 1.6 naturally aspirated Diesel used in the Uno saloon and Fiorino panelvan, a car vastly sold all around Middle- and South America by Fiat Argentina; there also was an even more economic 1.3 prechamber diesel with 37 bhp used in panelvan versions of the Panda, the 127 and the earlier Uno I in Italy, while I do not know about this engine in Argentina/South America.All diesels made by Peugeot up to (about) 1996 were amazingly reliable and economic little clockworks, well worth a thought when it comes to propelling a boat because those were so numerously sold and used up to the eighties and nineties in Europe and worldwide in the francophone areas, while parts for small, elder Peugeot diesels might be a difficult thing to get in Northern America, I'm afraid. (Know nothing about the situation in Quebec, though)But those cars were -and still are- everywhere in Africa and Asia, as they are in Middle East, and so are spares. Especially 404 and 504 are till today part of every African and Middle East streetscene You'll see on CNN or so.404 had 1.6 Liter diesels, later 1.9, both engines were used also in the 504 and the 505, where You'd find an additional 2.3 as well, all 4 cyl. .But the smaller Diesels out of 204, 205 and 106 as well as some of the 305 and early 405 are also very reliable engines in the 40 to 50 bhp range.So far the automotive engines cheaply obtainable from the scrapyard I can recomend by own experience.Most of the above named were over the last 34 years used by me on high end street diesel, methylester (RME), raw natural veggie oil and mixtures of those, the VW 1.6 and the Mercedes 2,9 also with waste oil from industrial edible's processing and fry oil residue, most on road, some in boats.Depending on where You are might be a Faryman Boat Diesel worth a look.No recommendation are getting Perkins and Volvo Penta - with the Perkins being a notorious engine oil guzzler who feeds on headgaskets and cracked, warped heads, and the Volvo ... well, we heard about that thing already.Cheers G_BAm 23.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                            After various comments about types and brands of engines, I found this tool:http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/I am not recommending it as a way to find an engine, but saying it was eye-opening how many brands of engines are out there, and how many very large and unsuitable engines are not that expensive.   So far the recommendations have been Mitsubishi, Izusu, Kubota, which includes the other manufacturers who use the same engine as the start... Beta and others.   Giuseppe has said some good things about the Mercedes 601 which is a much larger horsepower than would be suitable for most personal sailboats.   Giuseppe has been complementary of the usefulness of simple low-pressure indirect injection and pre-chambers because they better tolerate fuel variances.   I am keeping all this information tucked away.  No doubt if one decides to repower, local and serendipitous opportunities will likely be better than ordering new, or finding something on a used website, however, looking at the used website will give one a measuring stick to determine that.   There is a lot that can be said about used, however, someone also said that marine engines more often fail from internal corrosion.   If it were an old industrial or closed-loop coolant engine, I can see the logic of preferring old, but, something that was salt water cooled for decades... would that not be a deterioration problem?I was also looking at a lot of non-marine engines, and they have a big fan on them...  If one went for closed-circuit cooling with a skeg, it seems that fan might not be useful?   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:08:48 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset                                                   Most engines in the world are diesels, more than half of all new engines  sold. Most have zero problems, for a long time, when maintained.  On 23/03/2016 20:08, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a  > life long diesel mechanic, as saying  "A rebuilt diesel is far more  > reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed,  > and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with  > casting problems.A client who did  a lot of casting said no matter how  > well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other  > than by running time.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                                   		 	   		                             |
33431|33392|2016-03-23 23:56:26|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-1841433053 .ygrps-yiv-1841433053EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    Farymann diesels are either very low hp or very heavy.  My 25 HP atomic 4 flathead gas engine looks like something I can lift.  Perhaps weight is unavoidable in a reliable diesel but the Farymann and Lister in particular seem way too  heavy for the HP.  My hull is old-style displacing so over powering it is not useful which crosses off all but the smallest car engines.  Maybe something like that 37 HP one you mention, with a higher ratio gearbox to keep engine RPM high and the guts of a 6,000 Watt generator on the front, but a I really prefer to keep everything lightweight, low power, modest engine if I change it.  About old car engines... China has been so hungry for scrap metal everything old and not already a restored classic car was sold off 10 years ago.  I cannot even find the most common GM truck rim size from 1960 to 1990 to go on my trailer - the scrappers crushed  all the cheap ones and only a few are being held onto for classic restorations.   5 years ago, maybe.  Developing countries with no road salt, different story.  Maybe there will be a lot of 70s and 80s cars around.   I will think about these as a parts base  if I happen upon an engine.   I was considering as a crazy idea, two China diesels,  one lubed in a crate, the other installed.  I really appreciate your input on well designed versatile old engines.  Matt    "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        Matt, You're right being worried about corrosion when it comes to raw water cooled engines with some neglect or having sat some time unused without proper flushing.   A lot of engines which weren't thought for boat use in the first place like all Mercedes engines I ever pulled out of boats were marinised with closed circuit cooling, often as well with a dry exhaust.   No excessive corrosion problems with those, usually, despite the water injecting metal part of the exhaust if a wet one was used - as long as they didn't sit in flooded bilges, though.   Mercedes diesel engines up to about 1993 have cast iron blocks and heads, conservative prechamber technic and easy peasy injection and injecting valves, which makes them nearly undestroyable tanks no matter what sort of abuse in terms of fuel You do to  them, but they're heavy buggers all along.   Very good and reliable engines, apart of the elder iron cast Mercedes', would be the 1.6 liter VW natural aspirated prechamber diesels (Code JP) used in the Golf II and Jetta during the eighties and nineties, and those are very very cheap, at least over  here in Europe because those were built by the million. Using Code JR, MF or 1V bodys (turbo versions) with JP heads and injection is possible while something for somebody who does know what he's doing. Regular timing belt change mandatory!   A nice, very forgiving and astonishingly economic little engine would be the Fiat 1.6 naturally aspirated Diesel used in the Uno saloon and Fiorino panelvan, a car vastly sold all around Middle- and South America by Fiat Argentina;  there also was an even more economic 1.3 prechamber diesel with 37 bhp used in panelvan versions of the Panda, the 127 and the earlier Uno I in Italy, while I do not know about this engine in Argentina/South America.   All diesels made by Peugeot up to (about) 1996 were amazingly reliable and economic little clockworks, well worth a thought when it comes to propelling a boat because those were so numerously sold and used up to the eighties and nineties in Europe and  worldwide in the francophone areas, while parts for small, elder Peugeot diesels might be a difficult thing to get in Northern America, I'm afraid. (Know nothing about the situation in Quebec, though) But those cars were -and still are- everywhere in Africa and Asia, as they are in Middle East, and so are spares.  Especially 404 and 504 are till today part of every African and Middle East streetscene You'll see on CNN or so. 404 had 1.6 Liter diesels, later 1.9, both engines were used also in the 504 and the 505, where You'd find an additional 2.3 as well, all 4 cyl. . But the smaller Diesels out of 204, 205 and 106 as well as some of the 305 and early 405 are also very reliable engines in the 40 to 50 bhp range.   So far the automotive engines cheaply obtainable from the scrapyard I can recomend by own experience.   Most of the above named were over the last 34 years used by me on high end street diesel, methylester (RME), raw natural veggie oil and mixtures of those, the VW 1.6 and the Mercedes 2,9 also with waste oil from industrial edible's processing and fry oil  residue, most on road, some in boats.   Depending on where You are might be a Faryman Boat Diesel worth a look.   No recommendation are getting Perkins and Volvo Penta - with the Perkins being a notorious engine oil guzzler who feeds on headgaskets and cracked, warped heads, and the Volvo ... well, we heard about that thing already.   Cheers G_B                            Am 23.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:         After various comments about types and brands of engines, I found this tool:  http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/  I am not recommending it as a way to find an engine, but saying it was eye-opening how many brands of engines are out there, and how many very large and unsuitable engines are not that expensive.   So far the recommendations have been Mitsubishi, Izusu, Kubota,  which includes the other manufacturers who use the same engine as the start... Beta and others.   Giuseppe has said some good things about the Mercedes 601 which is a much larger horsepower than would be suitable for most personal sailboats.   Giuseppe has  been complementary of the usefulness of simple low-pressure indirect injection and pre-chambers because they better tolerate fuel variances.     I am keeping all this information tucked away.  No doubt if one decides to repower, local and serendipitous opportunities will likely be better than ordering new, or finding something on a used website, however, looking at the used website will give one a measuring  stick to determine that.     There is a lot that can be said about used, however, someone also said that marine engines more often fail from internal corrosion.   If it were an old industrial or closed-loop coolant engine, I can see the logic of preferring old, but, something that was  salt water cooled for decades... would that not be a deterioration problem?  I was also looking at a lot of non-marine engines, and they have a big fan on them...  If one went for closed-circuit cooling with a skeg, it seems that fan might not be useful?     Matt      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:08:48 +0100 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset      Most engines in the world are diesels, more than half of all new engines  sold. Most have zero problems, for a long time, when maintained.  On 23/03/2016 20:08, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a  > life long diesel mechanic, as saying "A rebuilt diesel is far more  > reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed,  > and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with  > casting problems.A client who did a lot of casting said no matter how  > well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other  > than by running time.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                      <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1841433053 #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1841433053 #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1841433053 #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1841433053 #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1841433053 #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1841433053 #ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1841433053x_ad  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33432|33392|2016-03-24 06:10:13|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I see.The undestroyable all-fuels diesel engine was, for the most time of diesel engines, a heavy monster with a bloody high comression rate of about 24 to one, by far more stroke than bore and revs well below a gasoline engine, steadied by damping prechamber injection and huge flywheels which further added to the engine's weight, outputting a lot of torque and next to no horsepower, related to the weight.Only with modern engineering of people like the Peugeot engine developping crew in the late seventies and the eighties, the VW and Audi Tech wizards who invented the TDI in the late eighties and lately even BMW with their sporty V6 and V8 Luxury Diesels the high rev, high bhp engines using diesel as a fuel came to live.The downside of those recent engines is and ever was their very picky pettishness when it came to temperatures, air humidity, differing pressures delivered by the turbo or other charging devices and, first of all, diesel quality.Diesel isn't ignited with a spark but ignites itself in the high temperature of the compressed air it is blown into, thus the form and the temperatures of the compressed cushion inside the combustion chamber is as essential for the burning process as is the form and way in which the diesel is injected.We are at about 45 % eta with small VW and Audi engines, about 47 to 48 % eta with BMW's 4 Litre V8 (an engine You can take a 2.5 ton car to a steady 250 km/h with under 10 liters per 100 km) and still not at the end of the line; (while Texas might bring developpement at VW's to a halt by it's sueing "dieselgate").So, controlling the combustion by strictly controlling all those factors from fuel quality to temperature is essential to get a lot of performance out of the liter diesel, what does bring us to integrated mapping and complex control units, specialized high pressure injecting and so on.Next is weight, and so aluminium and even magnesium came into the game as materials to be cast as pistons, blocks and heads. Downsides were, besides the pettishness when it comes to boundary conditions, the extremely low tolerances acceptable in the build of high performance engines, and the compareably high general maintenace this complexity made necessary.Other approaches, to try to rid us from these downsides, were low compression all fuel engines with, for example, Wankel technic and two spark plugs, sometimes with special sorts of precompression like two following chargers, intercooling, specialized injectors, double injection, two or four point injection  and so on.Fact is, there is no free lunch not even with diesel technic.So if You want "all fuel no maintenance" I'm afraid You will come out on the heavy side.There are some pretty interesting lightweight engines which are astonishingly reliable,  in fact reliable enough that they were used as aviation power plants, and there are some others which were built to get vibration free or extreme lightweight power for hybrids, but I'm afraid all those aren't "no maintenance" like old Mercedes Taxi engines at all.Dr Schrick Aviation engines GmbH in Germany has an aircooled two cylinder high rev Diesel engine used in drones which is said to be the best lightweight solution in lower performance ranges - not for free, though, and I do not know whether You are entitled to buy this as civilian customer these days at all.I once saw this engine in a one-off Diesel Motorbike (Ex BMW K 100) whose owner said it was by far the best and most efficient diesel engine he ever used to convert a bike. 1 1/2 liter diesel for 100 km biking was average, in the alps with two passengers still only 2.https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVL_SchrickThere are lightweight Smart 3 cyl. engines converted to aviation plants for ultralight planes on the German market which are rebuilt with the essential mapping while a simplyfied and redundant controlling/mapping unit was created for those, no frills in terms of Nox or Co2, and said to be very efficient AND reliable. http://flyeco.net/smart_diesel_de.htmlTop notch might be the Wankel Diesel I refered to recently, originally developped for the German Bundeswehr as a hybrid power plant for gen sets in Fuchs and Marder armoured vehicles.Some of the solutions are owned by the Bundeswehr, and I do not know whether they (Wankelsupertec, that is) actually do sell those these days at all or might only have a trailer queen to show off for the deciders who give away subventions to ex eastern Germany, but the system itself is promising in two ways: Charged Wankel low compression low pressure diesel systems with an ignition plug are very very forgiving in terms of fuel quality, and with the circling trochoide instead of a piston vibes and changing piston speeds aren't an issue, which allows lighter blocks, lighter shaft and lighter flywheels together with a wider rev spectrum.http://www.wankelsupertec.de/(The kinship of Felix Wankel might be inhibiting some marketing as well, for they might want to have their share of each sold unit ....)All this isn't for free like VW and Merc engines from the scrapyard could literally be, and these lightweight diesel multi fuelers aren't low maintenance either, plus You do have to have a certain amount of engineering knowledge together with some specialized tooling to keep 'em running over time.No cheapo Plug'n'Play solutions here I'm afraid, only a pretty wide range of compromises You'll have to decide within, for Your own purposes in terms of what is Your goal at the end of the day.So, what alternatives to heavy duty automotive Diesels are there actually on the market?You might have a look towards HATZ Diesel or/and towards Lombardini lightweight Diesels, both extremely reliable and pretty conservative "old school" Diesel engines in the lowest performance range, used for vibrating plates, mini excavators, mini road rollers, gen sets for construction sites and so on.Partly air cooled, partly liquid cooled, light and no-frills, actually used in fishing boats all around Italy and some other place in the Med, one of the the Lombardini's would be my choice of a lightweight onecylinder with up to fifteen hp (bigger versions available).One other compromise I'd probably make in terms of high tech mapping in the mid-power range:There is a VW 3 cyl TDI out of the Lupo, which is very reliable and low maintenance besides the timing belt, because this engine does have a lot less peak performance than it could have.You do have to keep it dry and cosy down there, for it isn't a boat engine in the first place, and You might get rid of the grime recircling exhaust (what would happen anyway when placing it in a boat), but this engine could be a compromise worth considering, for it's efficiency: You might forget where the diesel was poured until the next bunker session is mandatory .... the engine was used in the first official 3-liter-per-100-km car VW brought to market in the late nineties.Not a salad oil burner, (while some people I know did use it for years with this engine, preheated and cleared, though), but absolutely suitable to RME and some different sorts of light heating oil (sulfur containing), with a decent filter to catch sand and water I'd give it a try with a lot of diesel qualities. No more confusing propositions this time ;-)Cheers G_BAm 24.03.2016 um 04:56 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                             Farymann diesels are either very low hp or very heavy.  My 25 HP atomic 4 flathead gas engine looks like something I can lift.  Perhaps weight is unavoidable in a reliable diesel but the Farymann and Lister in particular seem way too  heavy for the HP.  My hull is old-style displacing so over powering it is not useful which crosses off all but the smallest car engines.  Maybe something like that 37 HP one you mention, with a higher ratio gearbox to keep engine RPM high and the guts of a 6,000 Watt generator on the front, but a I really prefer to keep everything lightweight, low power, modest engine if I change it.  About old car engines... China has been so hungry for scrap metal everything old and not already a restored classic car was sold off 10 years ago.  I cannot even find the most common GM truck rim size from 1960 to 1990 to go on my trailer - the scrappers crushed  all the cheap ones and only a few are being held onto for classic restorations.   5 years ago, maybe.  Developing countries with no road salt, different story.  Maybe there will be a lot of 70s and 80s cars around.   I will think about these as a parts base  if I happen upon an engine.   I was considering as a crazy idea, two China diesels,  one lubed in a crate, the other installed.  I really appreciate your input on well designed versatile old engines.  Matt    "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:       Matt, You're right being worried about corrosion when it comes to raw water cooled engines with some neglect or having sat some time unused without proper flushing.   A lot of engines which weren't thought for boat use in the first place like all Mercedes engines I ever pulled out of boats were marinised with closed circuit cooling, often as well with a dry exhaust.   No excessive corrosion problems with those, usually, despite the water injecting metal part of the exhaust if a wet one was used - as long as they didn't sit in flooded bilges, though.   Mercedes diesel engines up to about 1993 have cast iron blocks and heads, conservative prechamber technic and easy peasy injection and injecting valves, which makes them nearly undestroyable tanks no matter what sort of abuse in terms of fuel You do to  them, but they're heavy buggers all along.   Very good and reliable engines, apart of the elder iron cast Mercedes', would be the 1.6 liter VW natural aspirated prechamber diesels (Code JP) used in the Golf II and Jetta during the eighties and nineties, and those are very very cheap, at least over  here in Europe because those were built by the million. Using Code JR, MF or 1V bodys (turbo versions) with JP heads and injection is possible while something for somebody who does know what he's doing. Regular timing belt change mandatory!   A nice, very forgiving and astonishingly economic little engine would be the Fiat 1.6 naturally aspirated Diesel used in the Uno saloon and Fiorino panelvan, a car vastly sold all around Middle- and South America by Fiat Argentina;  there also was an even more economic 1.3 prechamber diesel with 37 bhp used in panelvan versions of the Panda, the 127 and the earlier Uno I in Italy, while I do not know about this engine in Argentina/South America.   All diesels made by Peugeot up to (about) 1996 were amazingly reliable and economic little clockworks, well worth a thought when it comes to propelling a boat because those were so numerously sold and used up to the eighties and nineties in Europe and  worldwide in the francophone areas, while parts for small, elder Peugeot diesels might be a difficult thing to get in Northern America, I'm afraid. (Know nothing about the situation in Quebec, though) But those cars were -and still are- everywhere in Africa and Asia, as they are in Middle East, and so are spares.  Especially 404 and 504 are till today part of every African and Middle East streetscene You'll see on CNN or so. 404 had 1.6 Liter diesels, later 1.9, both engines were used also in the 504 and the 505, where You'd find an additional 2.3 as well, all 4 cyl. . But the smaller Diesels out of 204, 205 and 106 as well as some of the 305 and early 405 are also very reliable engines in the 40 to 50 bhp range.   So far the automotive engines cheaply obtainable from the scrapyard I can recomend by own experience.   Most of the above named were over the last 34 years used by me on high end street diesel, methylester (RME), raw natural veggie oil and mixtures of those, the VW 1.6 and the Mercedes 2,9 also with waste oil from industrial edible's processing and fry oil  residue, most on road, some in boats.   Depending on where You are might be a Faryman Boat Diesel worth a look.   No recommendation are getting Perkins and Volvo Penta - with the Perkins being a notorious engine oil guzzler who feeds on headgaskets and cracked, warped heads, and the Volvo ... well, we heard about that thing already.   Cheers G_B                            Am 23.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:        After various comments about types and brands of engines, I found this tool:  http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/  I am not recommending it as a way to find an engine, but saying it was eye-opening how many brands of engines are out there, and how many very large and unsuitable engines are not that expensive.   So far the recommendations have been Mitsubishi, Izusu, Kubota,  which includes the other manufacturers who use the same engine as the start... Beta and others.   Giuseppe has said some good things about the Mercedes 601 which is a much larger horsepower than would be suitable for most personal sailboats.   Giuseppe has  been complementary of the usefulness of simple low-pressure indirect injection and pre-chambers because they better tolerate fuel variances.     I am keeping all this information tucked away.  No doubt if one decides to repower, local and serendipitous opportunities will likely be better than ordering new, or finding something on a used website, however, looking at the used website will give one a measuring  stick to determine that.     There is a lot that can be said about used, however, someone also said that marine engines more often fail from internal corrosion.   If it were an old industrial or closed-loop coolant engine, I can see the logic of preferring old, but, something that was  salt water cooled for decades... would that not be a deterioration problem?  I was also looking at a lot of non-marine engines, and they have a big fan on them...  If one went for closed-circuit cooling with a skeg, it seems that fan might not be useful?     Matt      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:08:48 +0100 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset      Most engines in the world are diesels, more than half of all new engines  sold. Most have zero problems, for a long time, when maintained.  On 23/03/2016 20:08, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a  > life long diesel mechanic, as saying "A rebuilt diesel is far more  > reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed,  > and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with  > casting problems.A client who did a lot of casting said no matter how  > well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other  > than by running time.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                                                 |
33433|33392|2016-03-24 09:05:05|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-1258431168 .ygrps-yiv-1258431168EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    By "lightweight" I was meaning more a philosophy.  LED lighting, low power computer and OpenCPN, solar panels, wind generator, maybe no refrigeration, or maybe something far more efficient than 35kWh/month as a refrigeration system.     The boat itself does not need a lot of HP to move it, and too much would not fit the propeller window and would only cause problems over-driving a displacement hull.   The systems I envision would not be power-hungry and would not need a lot of hp in the engine  for the alternator.   I would like to stay at 20-25 hp, not go down to 8 or 15 hp or up over 35hp, especially if it means trying to fit something physically much bigger into the little cradle where the atomic 4 is working just fine right now.     At the same time a $6k to $8k repower with a drop in new marine diesel... there are other places I would rather spend that sort of money -- mast, new sails, new head with a shower, gutting the interior and having it redone -- none of which I see as urgent.    I am not committed to changing the engine, I really want to keep the steps before relaunch simple, however, learning about options is never a loss.   Matt  "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        I see.   The undestroyable all-fuels diesel engine was, for the most time of diesel engines, a heavy monster with a bloody high comression rate of about 24 to one, by far more stroke than bore and revs well below a gasoline engine, steadied by damping prechamber  injection and huge flywheels which further added to the engine's weight, outputting a lot of torque and next to no horsepower, related to the weight.   Only with modern engineering of people like the Peugeot engine developping crew in the late seventies and the eighties, the VW and Audi Tech wizards who invented the TDI in the late eighties and lately even BMW with their sporty V6 and V8 Luxury Diesels  the high rev, high bhp engines using diesel as a fuel came to live.   The downside of those recent engines is and ever was their very picky pettishness when it came to temperatures, air humidity, differing pressures delivered by the turbo or other charging devices and, first of all, diesel quality.   Diesel isn't ignited with a spark but ignites itself in the high temperature of the compressed air it is blown into, thus the form and the temperatures of the compressed cushion inside the combustion chamber is as essential for the burning process as is  the form and way in which the diesel is injected.   We are at about 45 % eta with small VW and Audi engines, about 47 to 48 % eta with BMW's 4 Litre V8 (an engine You can take a 2.5 ton car to a steady 250 km/h with under 10 liters per 100 km) and still not at the end of the line; (while Texas might bring  developpement at VW's to a halt by it's sueing "dieselgate").   So, controlling the combustion by strictly controlling all those factors from fuel quality to temperature is essential to get a lot of performance out of the liter diesel, what does bring us to integrated mapping and complex control units, specialized  high pressure injecting and so on.   Next is weight, and so aluminium and even magnesium came into the game as materials to be cast as pistons, blocks and heads.    Downsides were, besides the pettishness when it comes to boundary conditions, the extremely low tolerances acceptable in the build of high performance engines, and the compareably high general maintenace this complexity made necessary.   Other approaches, to try to rid us from these downsides, were low compression all fuel engines with, for example, Wankel technic and two spark plugs, sometimes with special sorts of precompression like two following chargers, intercooling, specialized  injectors, double injection, two or four point injection  and so on.   Fact is, there is no free lunch not even with diesel technic.   So if You want "all fuel no maintenance" I'm afraid You will come out on the heavy side.   There are some pretty interesting lightweight engines which are astonishingly reliable,  in fact reliable enough that they were used as aviation power plants, and there are some others which were built to get vibration free or extreme lightweight power  for hybrids, but I'm afraid all those aren't "no maintenance" like old Mercedes Taxi engines at all.   Dr Schrick Aviation engines GmbH in Germany has an aircooled two cylinder high rev Diesel engine used in drones which is said to be the best lightweight solution in lower performance ranges - not for free, though, and I do not know whether You are entitled  to buy this as civilian customer these days at all.   I once saw this engine in a one-off Diesel Motorbike (Ex BMW K 100) whose owner said it was by far the best and most efficient diesel engine he ever used to convert a bike. 1 1/2 liter diesel for 100 km biking was average, in the alps with two passengers  still only 2.   https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVL_Schrick   There are lightweight Smart 3 cyl. engines converted to aviation plants for ultralight planes on the German market which are rebuilt with the essential mapping while a simplyfied and redundant controlling/mapping unit was created for those, no frills in  terms of Nox or Co2, and said to be very efficient AND reliable.    http://flyeco.net/smart_diesel_de.html   Top notch might be the Wankel Diesel I refered to recently, originally developped for the German Bundeswehr as a hybrid power plant for gen sets in Fuchs and Marder armoured vehicles.   Some of the solutions are owned by the Bundeswehr, and I do not know whether they (Wankelsupertec, that is) actually do sell those these days at all or might only have a trailer queen to show off for the deciders who give away subventions to ex eastern  Germany, but the system itself is promising in two ways:    Charged Wankel low compression low pressure diesel systems with an ignition plug are very very forgiving in terms of fuel quality, and with the circling trochoide instead of a piston vibes and changing piston speeds aren't an issue, which allows lighter  blocks, lighter shaft and lighter flywheels together with a wider rev spectrum.   http://www.wankelsupertec.de/   (The kinship of Felix Wankel might be inhibiting some marketing as well, for they might want to have their share of each sold unit ....)   All this isn't for free like VW and Merc engines from the scrapyard could literally be, and these lightweight diesel multi fuelers aren't low maintenance either, plus You do have to have a certain amount of engineering knowledge together with some specialized  tooling to keep 'em running over time.   No cheapo Plug'n'Play solutions here I'm afraid, only a pretty wide range of compromises You'll have to decide within, for Your own purposes in terms of what is Your goal at the end of the day.   So, what alternatives to heavy duty automotive Diesels are there actually on the market?   You might have a look towards HATZ Diesel or/and towards Lombardini lightweight Diesels, both extremely reliable and pretty conservative "old school" Diesel engines in the lowest performance range, used for vibrating plates, mini excavators, mini road  rollers, gen sets for construction sites and so on.   Partly air cooled, partly liquid cooled, light and no-frills, actually used in fishing boats all around Italy and some other place in the Med, one of the the Lombardini's would be my choice of a lightweight onecylinder with up to fifteen hp (bigger versions  available).   One other compromise I'd probably make in terms of high tech mapping in the mid-power range:   There is a VW 3 cyl TDI out of the Lupo, which is very reliable and low maintenance besides the timing belt, because this engine does have a lot less peak performance than it could have.   You do have to keep it dry and cosy down there, for it isn't a boat engine in the first place, and You might get rid of the grime recircling exhaust (what would happen anyway when placing it in a boat), but this engine could be a compromise worth considering,  for it's efficiency:  You might forget where the diesel was poured until the next bunker session is mandatory .... the engine was used in the first official 3-liter-per-100-km car VW brought to market in the late nineties.   Not a salad oil burner, (while some people I know did use it for years with this engine, preheated and cleared, though), but absolutely suitable to RME and some different sorts of light heating oil (sulfur containing), with a decent filter to catch sand  and water I'd give it a try with a lot of diesel qualities.    No more confusing propositions this time ;-)   Cheers G_B                                               Am 24.03.2016 um 04:56 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:         Farymann diesels are either very low hp or very heavy.  My 25 HP atomic 4 flathead gas engine looks like something I can lift.  Perhaps weight is unavoidable in a reliable diesel but the Farymann and Lister in particular seem way too  heavy for the HP.  My hull is old-style displacing so over powering it is not useful which crosses off all but the smallest car engines.  Maybe something like that 37 HP one you mention, with a higher ratio gearbox to keep engine RPM high and the guts of a 6,000 Watt generator on the front, but a I really prefer to keep everything lightweight, low power, modest engine if I change it.  About old car engines... China has been so hungry for scrap metal everything old and not already a restored classic car was sold off 10 years ago.  I cannot even find the most common GM truck rim size from 1960 to 1990 to go on my trailer - the scrappers crushed  all the cheap ones and only a few are being held onto for classic restorations.   5 years ago, maybe.  Developing countries with no road salt, different story.  Maybe there will be a lot of 70s and 80s cars around.   I will think about these as a parts base  if I happen upon an engine.   I was considering as a crazy idea, two China diesels,  one lubed in a crate, the other installed.  I really appreciate your input on well designed versatile old engines.  Matt    "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        Matt, You're right being worried about corrosion when it comes to raw water cooled engines with some neglect or having sat some time unused without proper flushing.   A lot of engines which weren't thought for boat use in the first place like all Mercedes engines I ever pulled out of boats were marinised with closed circuit cooling, often as well with a dry exhaust.   No excessive corrosion problems with those, usually, despite the water injecting metal part of the exhaust if a wet one was used - as long as they didn't sit in flooded bilges, though.   Mercedes diesel engines up to about 1993 have cast iron blocks and heads, conservative prechamber technic and easy peasy injection and injecting valves, which makes them nearly undestroyable tanks no matter what sort of abuse in terms of fuel You do to  them, but they're heavy buggers all along.   Very good and reliable engines, apart of the elder iron cast Mercedes', would be the 1.6 liter VW natural aspirated prechamber diesels (Code JP) used in the Golf II and Jetta during the eighties and nineties, and those are very very cheap, at least over  here in Europe because those were built by the million. Using Code JR, MF or 1V bodys (turbo versions) with JP heads and injection is possible while something for somebody who does know what he's doing. Regular timing belt change mandatory!   A nice, very forgiving and astonishingly economic little engine would be the Fiat 1.6 naturally aspirated Diesel used in the Uno saloon and Fiorino panelvan, a car vastly sold all around Middle- and South America by Fiat Argentina;  there also was an even more economic 1.3 prechamber diesel with 37 bhp used in panelvan versions of the Panda, the 127 and the earlier Uno I in Italy, while I do not know about this engine in Argentina/South America.   All diesels made by Peugeot up to (about) 1996 were amazingly reliable and economic little clockworks, well worth a thought when it comes to propelling a boat because those were so numerously sold and used up to the eighties and nineties in Europe and  worldwide in the francophone areas, while parts for small, elder Peugeot diesels might be a difficult thing to get in Northern America, I'm afraid. (Know nothing about the situation in Quebec, though) But those cars were -and still are- everywhere in Africa and Asia, as they are in Middle East, and so are spares.  Especially 404 and 504 are till today part of every African and Middle East streetscene You'll see on CNN or so. 404 had 1.6 Liter diesels, later 1.9, both engines were used also in the 504 and the 505, where You'd find an additional 2.3 as well, all 4 cyl. . But the smaller Diesels out of 204, 205 and 106 as well as some of the 305 and early 405 are also very reliable engines in the 40 to 50 bhp range.   So far the automotive engines cheaply obtainable from the scrapyard I can recomend by own experience.   Most of the above named were over the last 34 years used by me on high end street diesel, methylester (RME), raw natural veggie oil and mixtures of those, the VW 1.6 and the Mercedes 2,9 also with waste oil from industrial edible's processing and fry oil  residue, most on road, some in boats.   Depending on where You are might be a Faryman Boat Diesel worth a look.   No recommendation are getting Perkins and Volvo Penta - with the Perkins being a notorious engine oil guzzler who feeds on headgaskets and cracked, warped heads, and the Volvo ... well, we heard about that thing already.   Cheers G_B                            Am 23.03.2016 um 21:23 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:        After various comments about types and brands of engines, I found this tool:  http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/  I am not recommending it as a way to find an engine, but saying it was eye-opening how many brands of engines are out there, and how many very large and unsuitable engines are not that expensive.   So far the recommendations have been Mitsubishi, Izusu, Kubota,  which includes the other manufacturers who use the same engine as the start... Beta and others.   Giuseppe has said some good things about the Mercedes 601 which is a much larger horsepower than would be suitable for most personal sailboats.   Giuseppe has  been complementary of the usefulness of simple low-pressure indirect injection and pre-chambers because they better tolerate fuel variances.     I am keeping all this information tucked away.  No doubt if one decides to repower, local and serendipitous opportunities will likely be better than ordering new, or finding something on a used website, however, looking at the used website will give one a measuring  stick to determine that.     There is a lot that can be said about used, however, someone also said that marine engines more often fail from internal corrosion.   If it were an old industrial or closed-loop coolant engine, I can see the logic of preferring old, but, something that was  salt water cooled for decades... would that not be a deterioration problem?  I was also looking at a lot of non-marine engines, and they have a big fan on them...  If one went for closed-circuit cooling with a skeg, it seems that fan might not be useful?     Matt      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:08:48 +0100 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset      Most engines in the world are diesels, more than half of all new engines  sold. Most have zero problems, for a long time, when maintained.  On 23/03/2016 20:08, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > In his book "The Warm Dry Boat" Roger Mcaffee quoted his father, a  > life long diesel mechanic, as saying "A rebuilt diesel is far more  > reliable than a new one. One of my boats had a new diesel installed,  > and it wasn't long before she was back on warrantee, dealing with  > casting problems.A client who did a lot of casting said no matter how  > well you do a casting, there is no way of knowing about flaws other  > than by running time.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                                     <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1258431168 #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1258431168 #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1258431168 #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1258431168 #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1258431168 #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1258431168 #ygrps-yiv-1258431168x_ygrp-mkp 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33434|33392|2016-03-24 12:02:44|Darren Bos|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|                   Yachting Monthly has a nice article this month related to this     conversation.  It points out the weakness of common rail diesel in     marine use and also talks about some changes in diesel over the     years and particularly how the rising concentration of biodiesel is     good to be aware of.  So, even in the "first world" there are good     reason to have very aggressive diesel filtering.      http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/reasons-to-be-paranoid-about-diesel-34807          Darren          On 16-03-24 06:04 AM, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                      By "lightweight" I was meaning more a               philosophy.  LED lighting, low power computer and OpenCPN,               solar panels, wind generator, maybe no refrigeration, or               maybe something far more efficient than 35kWh/month as a               refrigeration system.                                               The boat itself does not need a lot of HP to move it, and               too much would not fit the propeller window and would only               cause problems over-driving a displacement hull.   The               systems I envision would not be power-hungry and would not               need a lot of hp in the engine for the alternator.   I               would like to stay at 20-25 hp, not go down to 8 or 15 hp               or up over 35hp, especially if it means trying to fit               something physically much bigger into the little cradle               where the atomic 4 is working just fine right now.                                               At the same time a $6k to $8k repower with a drop in new               marine diesel... there are other places I would rather               spend that sort of money -- mast, new sails, new head with               a shower, gutting the interior and having it redone --               none of which I see as urgent.                                              I am not committed to changing the engine, I really want               to keep the steps before relaunch simple, however,               learning about options is never a loss.                                             Matt                                                                      |
33435|33435|2016-03-24 14:46:46|aguysailing|Another type of "blast" cleaning|http://coulsoniceblast.com/This is a Vancouver Island company offering a "new" process of cleaning.   Comments appreciated ...  |
33436|33435|2016-03-24 16:40:21|brentswain38|Re: Another type of "blast" cleaning|You would still have the problem of a wet steel surface, which would still need quick drying. Wet sand  blasting would do the same thing . No worries about damaging a steel surface, unless it was so thin as to need steel replacing anyway. Don't expect the regulations to change to allow this to be exempt, any time soon. That takes a long time, sometimes.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aguysailing@...> wrote :http://coulsoniceblast.com/This is a Vancouver Island company offering a "new" process of cleaning.   Comments appreciated ...  |
33437|33392|2016-03-24 16:51:01|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Great article . Every cruiser should read it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : Yachting Monthly has a nice article this month related to this conversation.  It points out the weakness of common rail diesel in marine use and also talks about some changes in diesel over the years and particularly how the rising concentration of biodiesel is good to be aware of.  So, even in the "first world" there are good reason to have very aggressive diesel filtering.  http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/reasons-to-be-paranoid-about-diesel-34807  Darren On 16-03-24 06:04 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:    By "lightweight" I was meaning more a philosophy.  LED lighting, low power computer and OpenCPN, solar panels, wind generator, maybe no refrigeration, or maybe something far more efficient than 35kWh/month as a refrigeration system.     The boat itself does not need a lot of HP to move it, and too much would not fit the propeller window and would only cause problems over-driving a displacement hull.   The systems I envision would not be power-hungry and would not need a lot of hp in the engine for the alternator.   I would like to stay at 20-25 hp, not go down to 8 or 15 hp or up over 35hp, especially if it means trying to fit something physically much bigger into the little cradle where the atomic 4 is working just fine right now.     At the same time a $6k to $8k repower with a drop in new marine diesel... there are other places I would rather spend that sort of money -- mast, new sails, new head with a shower, gutting the interior and having it redone -- none of which I see as urgent.    I am not committed to changing the engine, I really want to keep the steps before relaunch simple, however, learning about options is never a loss.   Matt    |
33438|33392|2016-04-09 23:53:25|ursus_222|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Hello HaidenJeez not only is my boat underpowered with 29 hp but the engine is a piece of shit! :( Oh well, I am planning on putting something a little more reliable in before I go anywhere, but there isn't much room for larger unless I raise the floor a few inches and move the steps forward.CheersVic|
33439|33392|2016-04-11 19:36:01|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|The first  36 I built cruised for many years with a ten HP diesel , including to Mexico and back to BC.I did the dame trip with the same  ten HP diesel in my boat.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ursus_222@...> wrote :Hello HaidenJeez not only is my boat underpowered with 29 hp but the engine is a piece of shit! :( Oh well, I am planning on putting something a little more reliable in before I go anywhere, but there isn't much room for larger unless I raise the floor a few inches and move the steps forward.CheersVic|
33440|33392|2016-04-11 20:08:46|Matt Malone|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-1543056361 .ygrps-yiv-1543056361EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    Brent, that is a small engine for a 36'.  How did you manage the channels and currents around the BC islands?  Or did you wait hours for the right tide state?  Matt   "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        The first  36 I built cruised for many years with a ten HP diesel , including to Mexico and back to BC.I did the dame trip with the same  ten HP diesel in my boat.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ursus_222@...> wrote :  Hello Haiden   Jeez not only is my boat underpowered with 29 hp but the engine is a piece of shit! :( Oh well, I am planning on putting something a little more reliable in before I go anywhere, but there isn't much room for larger unless I raise the floor a few inches  and move the steps forward.   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33441|33392|2016-04-12 02:31:43|Hannu Venermo|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|12 Hp was standard for small sailboats, in the 32-33 ft range, for decades.  Imho a bigger prop is much better than a bigger engine.    On 12/04/2016 01:35, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > The first  36 I built cruised for many years with a ten HP diesel ,  > including to Mexico and back to BC.I did the dame trip with the same   > ten HP diesel in my boat.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33442|33392|2016-04-12 15:33:14|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|You just have to wait for the right tides, which you have to do anyway , with tides up to 15 knots in this area. Doesn't mater how big an engine you have, you are not going to  buck that kind of tide in a sailboat . On my last boat , a 29 footer, I ran many a tide with no engine , for the first 3 years, including a trip to Tahiti and back. Then I put a 4hp diesel in for  the next 7 years.  Much easier in our tiny boats than Captains Cook and Vancouver had it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1309377058 #ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585 .ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}Brent, that is a small engine for a 36'.  How did you manage the channels and currents around the BC islands?  Or did you wait hours for the right tide state?  Matt   "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  The first  36 I built cruised for many years with a ten HP diesel , including to Mexico and back to BC.I did the dame trip with the same  ten HP diesel in my boat.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ursus_222@...> wrote : Hello HaidenJeez not only is my boat underpowered with 29 hp but the engine is a piece of shit! :( Oh well, I am planning on putting something a little more reliable in before I go anywhere, but there isn't much room for larger unless I raise the floor a few inches and move the steps forward.CheersVic#ygrps-yiv-1309377058 #ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585 #ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1309377058 #ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585 #ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1309377058 #ygrps-yiv-1309377058ygrps-yiv-424388585 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33443|33392|2016-04-12 16:24:13|opuspaul|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|That is a generalization.   The engines years ago tended to be lower rpm and  higher torque engines so tended to have larger props.   Their 12 hp rating may have been equivalent to a modern 30 hp at the same rpm when you looked at the torque/rpm charts.   Anyone who has seen an old Lister or Sabb diesel with it's huge flywheel and then compared their data with a modern diesel like a Yanmar knows what I mean. If you put too big of a prop on a diesel you can overwork the engine.  It will be inefficient, use a lot of fuel, blow too much smoke and possibly damage it.  Everything needs to be properly matched with the type of engine and it's torque/hp curve.    If you put a 2.5 to 1 gearbox on a diesel instead of a 2 to 1 or 1.5 to 1 gearbox  then you can swing a larger prop but you will have a lot of drag pulling that prop around under sail.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :12 Hp was standard for small sailboats, in the 32-33 ft range, for decades.  Imho a bigger prop is much better than a bigger engine.  |
33444|33392|2016-04-12 16:53:34|opuspaul|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Brent, you make it sound so easy, but I know it is not so I have a huge amount of respect for you.   You must have a tremendous amount of patience.   I remember days and days of calms and little wind when I lived in BC.   I remember  one summer when I only managed to be able to sail one afternoon in 3 weeks.   Trying to position yourself in the right place at the right time to catch a strong current through a narrow pass must have been very exciting at times.   Did you ever try rowing or sculling?   There are a few engineless boats here in NZ but there is normally lots of wind and we don't get the tides and currents of Canada here.  One of them has big long sweep (yuloh)  that is curved to fit along the tow rail.  He says it is not quite the right curve but it stores nicely.  He gets his 34 footer up to about 2 knots with it when there is no wind.     Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :You just have to wait for the right tides, which you have to do anyway , with tides up to 15 knots in this area. Doesn't mater how big an engine you have, you are not going to  buck that kind of tide in a sailboat . On my last boat , a 29 footer, I ran many a tide with no engine , for the first 3 years, including a trip to Tahiti and back. 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33445|33392|2016-04-13 14:30:08|brentswain38|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|I did  a lot of sculling with  the rudder, and  a lot of kedging into tight anchorages with a 12 lb danforth and several  hundred feet of poly line. A tiny anchor and lots of floating light line is exteremly handy when windjamming. You end up anchoring in some deep, exposed places. Anchoring  from the stern,  theslapping wavelets , lapping under the counter let you know  when the calm has ended.  I remember ,after coming back from Tahiti, cruising  in Barclay Sound . Left Bamfield in a good wind , but it  died,  leaving me rolling in the swell. I thought about how useful a good long oar would be, when I saw something  yellow , bouncing in the swell . Sculled over with my rudder, and what did  I find ? A 12 ft long oar!The trouble with an oar is, as soon as you start rowing, the wind comes up, and you have to pull it in.Then the wind dies and you put it back out, etc etc. With a sculling oar, you just  leave it out, when the wind is fickle .Yes it was frustrating , but eventually you learn that  getting angry doesn't bring the wind any sooner. You learn fatalism.|
33446|33446|2016-04-14 17:06:21|smallboatvoyaguer|stick welding stainless|Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin |
33447|33446|2016-04-14 17:26:36|opuspaul|Re: stick welding stainless|I have never had any problem using stainless rods.    The welds flow nicely.    I have always used 316L rods even when welding to mild steel.   If you are welding to zinc primed or coated steel, it could be a problem.   I would clean everything well with a sanding disc or SS brush.   Could your rods be contaminated by something or too wet?I wouldn't want any "pockets" or anything that can hold salt water in a SS weld.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin |
33448|33446|2016-04-14 23:03:17|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: stick welding stainless|AC or DC welder?? Sounds like polarity problem. Welded lots of SS on my BS40 with  a "BuzzBox" . Love welding SSGordSent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2016, at 3:06 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
     
       
       
       Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin 
 
     
      
 
     
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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33449|33446|2016-04-14 23:40:08|Matt Malone|Re: stick welding stainless|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-1457591453 .ygrps-yiv-1457591453EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    Gord, can you tell us what polarity you use, what rod and what position?    I have used 7018 downhand/flat to make mainly cosmetic/finishing/sealing  welds in stainless using an AC buzzbox at +10% the amperage I use to do the same job with 6011 rod of the same size.  Pros will tell you what I am doing is all wrong, and if it were structural  I would care.  With my level of technique, and my buzzbox, 7018 can give me smooth sealed results without grinding.  It is inexpensive rod so I have had a lot of practice with it. Anything else is frustration and hours.   I wish I could afford what is it 309  or 319 rod to practice enough to get good with it.  It is ridiculously expensive to burn 5kg just practicing.    I would be very interested to hear what others have to say.  Matt    "GORDON SCHNELL gschnell@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:         AC or DC welder?? Sounds like polarity problem. Welded lots of SS on my BS40 with  a "BuzzBox" . Love welding SS Gord  Sent from my iPhone   On Apr 14, 2016, at 3:06 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        Please, some body help!   I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground  out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear.    I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.   Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?     Any tips would be much appreciated!    Marlin          <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ad  	{margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ad  	{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1457591453 #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1457591453x_ygrp-lc 	{font-family:Arial;} 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33450|33446|2016-04-15 00:56:39|opuspaul|Re: stick welding stainless|The vast majority of the SS welding that I have done has been with a two phase 220 volt AC welder that plugged into a standard stove outlet.   IMO,  cheap single phase 110 volt or 220 volt transformer welders tend to have a low strike voltage and are too much of a toy.   Their strike voltage is too low, especially if you use a long extension cord.   If you are going to have a single phase welder I would stick to the newer and smaller inverter type.   The 220 volt AC inverter welder I use now (ZX7-200) welds like a dream compared to my old buzz box and it is just a cheap welder out of China.   They are found all over the world under different names.I found SS welding with 316 rods easier than using 6011.   I was surprised how easy it was to get a smooth weld, even on thin metal like tubing.   So practice with 6011.   If you can get a nice smooth weld with 6011 then SS should not be any problem.    6011 really penetrates well and burns through a lot of crap that a SS rod  won't.    If you are welding SS to mild steel, make sure you start off with a clean piece of metal.   I find I get a better quality weld by keeping the amp setting on the high side and learning to work fast.   Downhand welding is easier and may look nice but the weld may be just laying on top.  I hate doing vertical welds but it is better to go uphill whenever possible.  |
33451|33446|2016-04-15 09:47:07|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: stick welding stainless|So, I have  few ideas.My 6011 and 7024 welds are fine. I don't think it has to do with my skill level. I put the rods in an oven I made to drive out moisture. It's an old mini fridge with a light bulb in it and a little vent. I suspect there is moisture in the rods. I inspected some welds I did a coupe weeks ago wit the same rods and they are fine.I am also going to preheat the area before I weld. The bubbles are forming mainly at the very beginning of the bead.So I am going to try to eliminate the moisture in the rod, and preheat the area I will weld.|
33452|33446|2016-04-15 11:28:14|Gordon Schnell|Re: stick welding stainless|You asked what rods I used: 308L for SS to SS and 309L for SS to steel. I would imagine you have tried various temperatures, travel speeds, rod diameters. Pockets generally indicate too much heat or possibly travelling too fast to get the metals hot enough to “flow”. Sorry I can’t offer a solution. Play with those parameters and watch the changes to the “puddle”. Gord On Apr 14, 2016, at 3:26 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I have never had any problem using stainless rods.    The welds flow nicely.    I have always used 316L rods even when welding to mild steel.   If you are welding to zinc primed or coated steel, it could be a problem.   I would clean everything well with a sanding disc or SS brush.   Could your rods be contaminated by something or too wet?I wouldn't want any "pockets" or anything that can hold salt water in a SS weld.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin |
33453|33446|2016-04-15 11:51:04|Gordon Schnell|Re: stick welding stainless|Nothing special…used 1/8” 309L (17 & 16) for stainless to steel (17 & 16). Note: SS rod is hard to start the arc w/o “sticking”. Temptation is to “turn up the heat” ….instead , try “sweeping” the rod tip acrsss the weld site to initiate the arc, when the arc “starts, pause to establish it and then weld on. Hope you find a solution. On Apr 14, 2016, at 9:03 PM, GORDON SCHNELL gschnell@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:AC or DC welder?? Sounds like polarity problem. Welded lots of SS on my BS40 with  a "BuzzBox" . Love welding SSGordSent from my iPhoneOn Apr 14, 2016, at 3:06 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin |
33454|33446|2016-04-15 12:10:11|theboilerflue|Re: stick welding stainless|I've gotten some pretty rotten rods at times, one bunch I got very cheap on ebay and they just don't flow cleanly, they sorta burst a bit like welding with 6011 and it caused pockets of slag, they're better with a nice smooth DC machine but they don't like AC or my Weldernator on the boat. I've had some that will act like that when they're damp too, try putting your rods in an oven on low for a night. Or try some different stainless rods. I prefer the ESAB rods, the green ones. They have the nicest flow I've found. Usually stainless rod welding is a dream, you can nearly just rest the rod and let it burn itself along the joint.|
33455|33446|2016-04-15 12:19:13|Gordon Schnell|Re: stick welding stainless|I welded my entire vessel with a “buzz-box”…AC welder…hence No fixed polarity. I used the standard ground cable/clamp to the hull and 1/8” 309 electrodesl.  On Apr 14, 2016, at 9:38 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Gord, can you tell us what polarity you use, what rod and what position?  I have used 7018 downhand/flat to make mainly cosmetic/finishing/sealing  welds in stainless using an AC buzzbox at +10% the amperage I use to do the same job with 6011 rod of the same size.  Pros will tell you what I am doing is all wrong, and if it were structural I would care.  With my level of technique, and my buzzbox, 7018 can give me smooth sealed results without grinding.  It is inexpensive rod so I have had a lot of practice with it. Anything else is frustration and hours.   I wish I could afford what is it 309 or 319 rod to practice enough to get good with it.  It is ridiculously expensive to burn 5kg just practicing.  I would be very interested to hear what others have to say.Matt"GORDON SCHNELL gschnell@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: AC or DC welder?? Sounds like polarity problem. Welded lots of SS on my BS40 with  a "BuzzBox" . Love welding SSGordSent from my iPhoneOn Apr 14, 2016, at 3:06 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin |
33456|33446|2016-04-15 17:13:17|jpronk1|Re: stick welding stainless|How is your ground clamp? What kind of shape are your leads in?  These are the first things that I check when having problems welding. Is your ground clamp heating up? Sign of resistance at the ground clamp. Same goes for your stinger! Check for good contacts throughout your whole set-up.  Are you keeping a good tight arc gap and are you dragging the rod? The flux coating on electrodes is designed to burn once. If slag is flowing ahead of your weld it can get remixed in with you puddle and freeze before it floats to the surface.  Just some thoughts, good luck. James Pronk   Sent from my iPhone|
33457|33446|2016-04-16 10:09:40|Shawn Green|Re: stick welding stainless|Turn it up. I mean up. Like when the last third of your rod is glowing red and almost unusable. Then down a bit and your good.  I have welded lots of stainless well above the manufacturers amperage settings. 90- 100 is nice for 3/32 for me. 1/8th ive gotten all the way to 160 and beyond even.Preheating everything is a good idea. Especially in the morning. It's amazing how much moisture you can cook out of a plate of steel even on a dry morning. I also find 309 to operate more like a jet rod than say a 6010 or 7018. Cram it into the puddle and let the rod dictate travel speed instead of trying to run a bead like you would otherwise.|
33458|33446|2016-04-16 19:08:28|brentswain38|Re: stick welding stainless|Dont bother grinding them out.They are tiny and insignifincant.Welding slightly uphill where possible keeps the slag out of stainless welds.You could just have a bad batch of rods .Switch brands.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Please, some body help!I have changed travel speed, feed rate, rod angle, amperage, cleaning the area to be welded, and nothing seems to get rid of these teeny little slag pockets. When I welded up my bulwark caps last year I had the same problem, and I meticulously ground out and re-welded every time. It took DAYS. Now I am looking at all the stainless welding I have ahead of me in fear. I am mainly talking about welding stainless to mild with 309L rods, 3/32". I seem to have less problems with welding stainless to stainless.Do I even need to grind these out? I wonder if they are just surface pockets, and not a big deal. Fill them with paint?  Any tips would be much appreciated! Marlin |
33459|33446|2016-04-16 19:15:19|brentswain38|Re: stick welding stainless|With some uphill welds,  stainless is so runny that I find breaking the  arc works best, piling one tack on top of the next,with brief pause between them to let each solidify.Slag looks rough as hell, but he weld under it looks super smooth.|
33460|33446|2016-04-17 03:52:11|dejongralph|Re: stick welding stainless|Thoroughly remove all paint and dirt before welding.  For between the hull and bulwark after hull assembly you could have used a smaller than 1mm grinding disk.  Ralph|
33461|33392|2016-04-24 12:54:10|garyhlucas|Boat engines|For you guys looking for an engine. These two are at Fazzio’s scrap yard in Glassboro NJ.  They gets tons of industrial stuff in there.   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
33462|33392|2016-04-24 18:01:39|Matt Malone|Re: Boat engines|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-48378035 .ygrps-yiv-48378035hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-48378035 .ygrps-yiv-48378035hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Thank you Gary,Is this it?http://www.josephfazzio.com/industrial/Now a pin in my road trip map.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 12:53:56 -0400Subject: [origamiboats] Boat engines                                                   For you guys looking for an engine. These two are at Fazzio’s scrap yard in Glassboro NJ.  They gets tons of industrial stuff in there.   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33463|33392|2016-04-25 08:30:06|garyhlucas|Re: Boat engines|     Yes, An amazing place that started as a junk yard but now has about the biggest  industrial hardware store you have ever seen.  Lots of metal drops and  stuff. In the old days you could wander through the steel yard but insurance  regulations put an end to that.        <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 24, 2016 6:01 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Boat engines        Thank you Gary,Is this it?http://www.josephfazzio.com/industrial/Now a pin  in my road trip map.  Matt     To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate:  Sun, 24 Apr 2016 12:53:56 -0400Subject: [origamiboats] Boat  engines     For you guys looking for an engine. These two are at  Fazzio’s scrap yard in Glassboro NJ. They gets tons of industrial stuff in  there. [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed] |
33464|33464|2016-04-26 13:51:54|jonhackett1958|Brent Swain 36' For Sale|For Sale - Brent Swain 36' bilge keel.Located in Seattle, WA  USALaunched in September 2005.Pilot houseServo rudder self steering with interior station and e-tiller pilot, rigged to linkage in pilot house.On deck SS anchor winch/spoolTabernacle mast footReversible forward hatchSS cabin top/pilot house grab railsThough hulls are 316 SS pipe and valves.Twin bottle propane locker aft.Exterior coatings above the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302hTwo coats Ameron 235,One coat Ameron two part polyurethaneThree coats Brightside one part polyurethaneExterior coatings below the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302hOne coat Ameron 235Four coats coal tar epoxySeveral alternating coats of bottom paint (red, blue and black)2-1/2” spray foamed interior over 3 coats of Ameron 235All interior wood bulkheads, floors, cabinetry, furring, wall and ceiling coverings are epoxy impregnated mahogany marine grade wood and plywoods.Heavy-duty bitts, railings, bow rollers, companionway door, hawsers and all the rest that goes with a Brent Swain boat.SailsAll made in 2006 by North Sails of Seattle, WAMain – Triple reef, heavy (9oz), loose footGenoa – 130% - set up for roller furlingJib – 90% - also set up for roller furling (rigged, but never sailed)Storm sail – 12oz. hank on for inner stay (rigged, but never sailed)All come with North Sail bagsRigMast – schedule 10 corten steelAll fittings and friction areas are 304/316 stainless alloysStainless shoe on mast baseDual downwind running poles – super easy/safeAluminum roller furling – rigged with 3/8” roller line and large drum for easy furlingMast steps – SSCleats, spreaders, winch pads, gooseneck, pad eyes , rub points etc. - All SSMasthead wiring is all external and tastefully routedWire rope is 7/19 stainless where friction is an issue, (forestay, fore and aft shrouds).Double backstays and main shrouds are 1X7 – 5/16” HT galvanized with 1/2” galvanized turnbuckles throughout.Boom is a custom aluminum section from a 20 meter racing sloop. (cut down of course)Reefing lines are easily accessible near the gooseneckLazy jacks riggedIncluded - 5/16” swaging tool for nicopress sleevesEngineIsuzu 4LC1 40hp diesel >600hrs – New in crate from Lassen Marine 2005Skeg cooled50 gallon aluminum fuel tank with sight glassTriple fuel filter arrangement (switchable X2)All stainless dry exhaustExtra heavy ZF reverse gear with coolerSump pump oil change arrangementEasily accessible, serviceable and removable.Aquamet 1-1/4” shaftBronze 3 blade propDripless shaftsealShaft tube is 2-1/2”OD X 1/4” wall SS tubeElectricalAll wiring is marine grade tinned and gauged accordingly.Isolation transformer Charles 3000 wattBattery Charger – Trace 20amp/1500watt charger/inverterTwo Siemens 85 watt solar panels mounted aft on an archTrace charging regulator for PanelsAir-Marine 403 wind generator - mounted aftTwo Dyno 400ah 6v batteriesOne Dyno 12v group 30 starting batteryToo many details to listAll wiring terminals led to panel in pilot house.All grounds are home-run to panel.Electronics all new in 2006Furuno 16mi RadarIcom VHFGarmin depth/fishfinder (transom mounted)Garmin GPSmap 76Navico TP300 tillerpilotGalley/Cabin/HeadForce 10 - 3 burner stove with oven120 gallons in three Vetus bladder tanks - aft, mid and fore. Intake valves for each and a manifold under the galley sink for switching water source.Cold pressure water, cold hand-pump water and raw water foot-pump.Dual water filter setup for questionable water sources.High efficient small wood stove with door glass and SS heat-shield surround. (4 hrs burn time per load).Icebox - aluminum with 5-6” foam insulationSpace allotted for dorm fridge. (my current one has worked for 8 years).Plenty of cabinet space for dishes, pots, pans, pantry items and utensils.Salon table drops to make a double bed amidships.Forward berth is 8' long. Sail/bedding storage beneathJabsco head with three-way waste routing. (to 26 gal. tank or through-hull, or manual pump-out, tank to through-hull.Offset salon table turns to provide easy access for diners, as well as a weather rail for the cook.There are many more details that altogether, make for a sensible, cozy and safe boat.I have a lot of spares and goodies that go with her, including a zodiac 8' dinghy and a 9' Paratek Sea Anchor w/ 3/8” chain and 5/8” nylon three strand.My asking price is $40KAll reasonable offers consideredPlease feel free to contact me at jonhackett@...Please include your contact info.(If I missed your emails the last time I posted this, I apologize. I used the wrong email the last time I posted this).  |
33465|33464|2016-04-26 14:05:34|Larry Dale|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|How about some pictures.       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "jonhackett1958@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 26, 2016 1:51 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' For Sale          <!--  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824   #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 .ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-photo-title{ clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;} #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-photo{ background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824photo-title           a,  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824photo-title a:active,  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824photo-title a:hover,  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-row { clear:both;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-row div { float:left;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 p { clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-file { width:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-row div div a { text-decoration:none;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824attach-row div div span { font-weight:normal;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 div.ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-file-title { font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 -->             <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ad p { margin:0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1651814508 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824 #ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1651814508yiv7480983824ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} -->              For Sale - Brent Swain 36' bilge keel.Located in Seattle, WA  USALaunched in September 2005.Pilot houseServo rudder self steering with interior station and e-tiller pilot, rigged to linkage in pilot house.On deck SS anchor winch/spoolTabernacle mast footReversible forward hatchSS cabin top/pilot house grab railsThough hulls are 316 SS pipe and valves.Twin bottle propane locker aft.Exterior coatings above the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302hTwo coats Ameron 235,One coat Ameron two part polyurethaneThree coats Brightside one part polyurethaneExterior coatings below the waterline:Two coats Ameron 302hOne coat Ameron 235Four coats coal tar epoxySeveral alternating coats of bottom paint (red, blue and black)2-1/2” spray foamed interior over 3 coats of Ameron 235All interior wood bulkheads, floors, cabinetry, furring, wall and ceiling coverings are epoxy impregnated mahogany marine grade wood and plywoods.Heavy-duty bitts, railings, bow rollers, companionway door, hawsers and all the rest that goes with a Brent Swain boat.SailsAll made in 2006 by North Sails of Seattle, WAMain – Triple reef, heavy (9oz), loose footGenoa – 130% - set up for roller furlingJib – 90% - also set up for roller furling (rigged, but never sailed)Storm sail – 12oz. hank on for inner stay (rigged, but never sailed)All come with North Sail bagsRigMast – schedule 10 corten steelAll fittings and friction areas are 304/316 stainless alloysStainless shoe on mast baseDual downwind running poles – super easy/safeAluminum roller furling – rigged with 3/8” roller line and large drum for easy furlingMast steps – SSCleats, spreaders, winch pads, gooseneck, pad eyes , rub points etc. - All SSMasthead wiring is all external and tastefully routedWire rope is 7/19 stainless where friction is an issue, (forestay, fore and aft shrouds).Double backstays and main shrouds are 1X7 – 5/16” HT galvanized with 1/2” galvanized turnbuckles throughout.Boom is a custom aluminum section from a 20 meter racing sloop. (cut down of course)Reefing lines are easily accessible near the gooseneckLazy jacks riggedIncluded - 5/16” swaging tool for nicopress sleevesEngineIsuzu 4LC1 40hp diesel >600hrs – New in crate from Lassen Marine 2005Skeg cooled50 gallon aluminum fuel tank with sight glassTriple fuel filter arrangement (switchable X2)All stainless dry exhaustExtra heavy ZF reverse gear with coolerSump pump oil change arrangementEasily accessible, serviceable and removable.Aquamet 1-1/4” shaftBronze 3 blade propDripless shaftsealShaft tube is 2-1/2”OD X 1/4” wall SS tubeElectricalAll wiring is marine grade tinned and gauged accordingly.Isolation transformer Charles 3000 wattBattery Charger – Trace 20amp/1500watt charger/inverterTwo Siemens 85 watt solar panels mounted aft on an archTrace charging regulator for PanelsAir-Marine 403 wind generator - mounted aftTwo Dyno 400ah 6v batteriesOne Dyno 12v group 30 starting batteryToo many details to listAll wiring terminals led to panel in pilot house.All grounds are home-run to panel.Electronics all new in 2006Furuno 16mi RadarIcom VHFGarmin depth/fishfinder (transom mounted)Garmin GPSmap 76Navico TP300 tillerpilotGalley/Cabin/HeadForce 10 - 3 burner stove with oven120 gallons in three Vetus bladder tanks - aft, mid and fore. Intake valves for each and a manifold under the galley sink for switching water source.Cold pressure water, cold hand-pump water and raw water foot-pump.Dual water filter setup for questionable water sources.High efficient small wood stove with door glass and SS heat-shield surround. (4 hrs burn time per load).Icebox - aluminum with 5-6” foam insulationSpace allotted for dorm fridge. (my current one has worked for 8 years).Plenty of cabinet space for dishes, pots, pans, pantry items and utensils.Salon table drops to make a double bed amidships.Forward berth is 8' long. Sail/bedding storage beneathJabsco head with three-way waste routing. (to 26 gal. tank or through-hull, or manual pump-out, tank to through-hull.Offset salon table turns to provide easy access for diners, as well as a weather rail for the cook.There are many more details that altogether, make for a sensible, cozy and safe boat.I have a lot of spares and goodies that go with her, including a zodiac 8' dinghy and a 9' Paratek Sea Anchor w/ 3/8” chain and 5/8” nylon three strand.My asking price is $40KAll reasonable offers consideredPlease feel free to contact me at jonhackett@...Please include your contact info.(If I missed your emails the last time I posted this, I apologize. I used the wrong email the last time I posted this).                        |
33466|33464|2016-04-26 14:21:27|Jay Monkman|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Hi John,  Do you have any pictures?   On 04/26/2016 10:51 AM, jonhackett1958@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > For Sale - Brent Swain 36' bilge keel. > > Located in Seattle, WA USA > > Launched in September 2005. > > Pilot house > > Servo rudder self steering with interior station and e-tiller pilot,  > rigged to linkage in pilot house. > > On deck SS anchor winch/spool > > Tabernacle mast foot > > Reversible forward hatch > > SS cabin top/pilot house grab rails > > Though hulls are 316 SS pipe and valves. > > Twin bottle propane locker aft. > > > Exterior coatings above the waterline: > > Two coats Ameron 302h > > Two coats Ameron 235, > > One coat Ameron two part polyurethane > > Three coats Brightside one part polyurethane > > > Exterior coatings below the waterline: > > Two coats Ameron 302h > > One coat Ameron 235 > > Four coats coal tar epoxy > > Several alternating coats of bottom paint (red, blue and black) > > > 2-1/2” spray foamed interior over 3 coats of Ameron 235 > > All interior wood bulkheads, floors, cabinetry, furring, wall and  > ceiling coverings are epoxy impregnated mahogany marine grade wood and  > plywoods. > > Heavy-duty bitts, railings, bow rollers, companionway door, hawsers  > and all the rest that goes with a Brent Swain boat. > > > Sails > > > All made in 2006 by North Sails of Seattle, WA > > Main – Triple reef, heavy (9oz), loose foot > > Genoa – 130% - set up for roller furling > > Jib – 90% - also set up for roller furling (rigged, but never sailed) > > Storm sail – 12oz. hank on for inner stay (rigged, but never sailed) > > All come with North Sail bags > > > Rig > > > Mast – schedule 10 corten steel > > All fittings and friction areas are 304/316 stainless alloys > > Stainless shoe on mast base > > Dual downwind running poles – super easy/safe > > Aluminum roller furling – rigged with 3/8” roller line and large drum  > for easy furling > > Mast steps – SS > > Cleats, spreaders, winch pads, gooseneck, pad eyes , rub points etc. -  > All SS > > Masthead wiring is all external and tastefully routed > > Wire rope is 7/19 stainless where friction is an issue, (forestay,  > fore and aft shrouds). > > Double backstays and main shrouds are 1X7 – 5/16” HT galvanized with  > 1/2” galvanized turnbuckles throughout. > > Boom is a custom aluminum section from a 20 meter racing sloop. (cut  > down of course) > > Reefing lines are easily accessible near the gooseneck > > Lazy jacks rigged > > Included - 5/16” swaging tool for nicopress sleeves > > > Engine > > Isuzu 4LC1 40hp diesel >600hrs – New in crate from Lassen Marine 2005 > > Skeg cooled > > 50 gallon aluminum fuel tank with sight glass > > Triple fuel filter arrangement (switchable X2) > > All stainless dry exhaust > > Extra heavy ZF reverse gear with cooler > > Sump pump oil change arrangement > > Easily accessible, serviceable and removable. > > Aquamet 1-1/4” shaft > > Bronze 3 blade prop > > Dripless shaftseal > > Shaft tube is 2-1/2”OD X 1/4” wall SS tube > > > Electrical > > > All wiring is marine grade tinned and gauged accordingly. > > Isolation transformer Charles 3000 watt > > Battery Charger – Trace 20amp/1500watt charger/inverter > > Two Siemens 85 watt solar panels mounted aft on an arch > > Trace charging regulator for Panels > > Air-Marine 403 wind generator - mounted aft > > Two Dyno 400ah 6v batteries > > One Dyno 12v group 30 starting battery > > Too many details to list > > All wiring terminals led to panel in pilot house. > > All grounds are home-run to panel. > > > Electronics all new in 2006 > > > Furuno 16mi Radar > > Icom VHF > > Garmin depth/fishfinder (transom mounted) > > Garmin GPSmap 76 > > Navico TP300 tillerpilot > > > Galley/Cabin/Head > > > Force 10 - 3 burner stove with oven > > 120 gallons in three Vetus bladder tanks - aft, mid and fore. Intake  > valves for each and a manifold under the galley sink for switching  > water source. > > Cold pressure water, cold hand-pump water and raw water foot-pump. > > Dual water filter setup for questionable water sources. > > High efficient small wood stove with door glass and SS heat-shield  > surround. (4 hrs burn time per load). > > Icebox - aluminum with 5-6” foam insulation > > Space allotted for dorm fridge. (my current one has worked for 8 years). > > Plenty of cabinet space for dishes, pots, pans, pantry items and utensils. > > Salon table drops to make a double bed amidships. > > Forward berth is 8' long. Sail/bedding storage beneath > > Jabsco head with three-way waste routing. (to 26 gal. tank or  > through-hull, or manual pump-out, tank to through-hull. > > Offset salon table turns to provide easy access for diners, as well as  > a weather rail for the cook. > > There are many more details that altogether, make for a sensible, cozy  > and safe boat. > > I have a lot of spares and goodies that go with her, including a  > zodiac 8' dinghy and a 9' Paratek Sea Anchor w/ 3/8” chain and 5/8”  > nylon three strand. > > > My asking price is $40K > > All reasonable offers considered > > Please feel free to contact me at jonhackett@... <mailto:jonhackett@...> > > Please include your contact info. > > (If I missed your emails the last time I posted this, I apologize. I  > used the wrong email the last time I posted this). > > > > > > |
33467|33464|2016-04-26 18:10:15|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|That's one hell of a deal ,especially one so well painted, inside and out.|
33468|33464|2016-04-27 23:09:54|Jon Hackett|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Hi Larry,Send me your phone/email and I'll send along some pics.I'm at 206-890-9916jonhackett@...     On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 3:10 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       That's one hell of a deal ,especially one so well painted, inside and out.                           #ygrps-yiv-545105251 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429 --   #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-545105251 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-545105251 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-545105251 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-545105251 #ygrps-yiv-545105251yiv5949285429 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33469|33464|2016-04-28 18:02:30|Larry Dale|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Hi Jon, I don't have a phone, that I can call long distance, but, my E-mail is : roboman3234@...Thanks in advance for the pictures. Why are you selling her?       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Jon Hackett jonhackett1958@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:07 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale          <!--  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056   #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 .ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056ygrp-photo-title{ clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;} #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056ygrp-photo{ background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056photo-title           a,  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056photo-title a:active,  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056photo-title a:hover,  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-row { clear:both;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-row div { float:left;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 p { clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056ygrp-file { width:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-row div div a { text-decoration:none;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056attach-row div div span { font-weight:normal;}  #ygrps-yiv-411512799 #ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056 div.ygrps-yiv-411512799yiv1336672056ygrp-file-title { font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-411512799 -->                    Hi Larry,Send me your phone/email and I'll send along some pics.I'm at 206-890-9916jonhackett@...     On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 3:10 PM, "brentswain38@... 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33470|33470|2016-04-28 18:45:04|smallboatvoyaguer|Diesel oven| I have one of these available to me for almost free: Adriatic Diesel Cook Stoves - Dickinson Marine                             Adriatic Diesel Cook Stoves - Dickinson Marine   The Adriatic Cook Stove is ideal for medium size vessels 30-45ft. Similar in appearance to the Pacific but provides a larger cooking surface and a wider oven...              View on dickinsonmarine.com          Preview by Yahoo             Seems like as pain in the ass? But diesel is cool. Thoughts?   |
33471|33464|2016-04-28 19:21:50|Matt Malone|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-1477172463 .ygrps-yiv-1477172463EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    Hello Jon,  If you could post the photos to flicker or some other image website and post a link here, it makes it a lot easier to pass the link to others.  Those who are building a BS will no doubt have people around watching, interested, who might be given a link too.  Matt   "Larry Dale roboman3234@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:          Hi Jon, I don't have a phone, that I can call long distance, but, my E-mail is : roboman3234@... Thanks in advance for the pictures. Why are you selling her?        <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Jon Hackett jonhackett1958@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:07 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale       Hi Larry, Send me your phone/email and I'll send along some pics. I'm at 206-890-9916 jonhackett@...          On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 3:10 PM, "brentswain38@... 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33472|33464|2016-04-28 21:19:45|jonhackett1958|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Hi Matt,I just added several photos to an album on this site.They're located under Tortue2016Enjoy!|
33473|33470|2016-04-28 23:06:03|Matt Malone|Re: Diesel oven|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Musicas,Benefits:  - one fuel for the entire boat - potentially no pressurized fuel like natural gas or propane anywhere on board. - dry heat, does not put moisture into the air like propane does because there appears to be no open flame on this stove.     Shortcomings:  - exhaust must be ducted out, fresh air in, meaning more ventilators to keep seawater out of the unit. - does not pendulum to keep a pot level.   - must face fore or aft, which is unusual in sailboat configurations.    - more places for diesel to leak -- a propane leak that does not explode is easy to "clean up" -- just open a window, turn on the blower.      - I have to imagine anything diesel fired is going to smell like something that is diesel fired whereas propane is nearly odorless in comparison when burnt.  If one is on an unfavorable tack and the exhaust somehow re-enters the cabin it might be quite irritating.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:57:19 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel oven                                                    I have one of these available to me for almost free: Adriatic Diesel Cook Stoves - Dickinson Marine                             Adriatic Diesel Cook Stoves - Dickinson Marine   The Adriatic Cook Stove is ideal for medium size vessels 30-45ft. Similar in appearance to the Pacific but provides a larger cooking surface and a wider oven...              View on dickinsonmarine.com          Preview by Yahoo             Seems like as pain in the ass? But diesel is cool. Thoughts?                                   <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1265685665 .ygrps-yiv-1265685665ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1265685665ecxygrp-mkp 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33474|33470|2016-04-29 00:57:15|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel oven|                    We have the Pacific version of the the stove, it is fine, but like     all boat things it is a compromise.  Like Matt says it can't be     gimballed.  You can however mount them in any orientation you     choose, you just move the metering valve to the appropriate location     (although I think facing fore or aft is best for a non-gimballed     stove).  The biggest advantage is also the biggest disadvantage.      They put out lots of heat.  This is great when the weather is cool,     but if it is 9am and already 25C and all you want to do is fry some     bacon, this stove is not ideal.  If you've ever used a wood stove,     the experience with these diesel stoves is similar.  The cooktop     does not heat instantly when you turn it on, but takes some time to     come up to temperature.  Your temperature control for cooking comes     from changing the location on the cooktop to a hotter or colder     spot, rather than adjusting the stove.  We've decided to keep are     Pacific as we renovate the boat, but are also going to add an     alcohol stove for cooking when the weather isn't cold.  We've never     noticed a diesel smell from our stove (other than briefly while you     have the top off and are lighting the stove) and it is really nice     to have a huge fuel supply available that is not explosive,     expensive or difficult to acquire.  Consider also the layout of your     boat.  The stove needs a chimney and they do not like being     downdrafted.  If you sail close hauled and your stove chimney is     located near the aft end of the sail, you can get a high pressure     area at the chimney that will cause the stove to backdraft and cause     an unholy sooty smelly mess in the cabin.          Darren           On 16-04-28 08:02 PM, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                      Musicas,                              Benefits:                 - one fuel for the entire boat                - potentially no pressurized fuel like natural gas or               propane anywhere on board.                - dry heat, does not put moisture into the air like               propane does because there appears to be no open flame on               this stove.                                   Shortcomings:                 - exhaust must be ducted out, fresh air in, meaning more               ventilators to keep seawater out of the unit.                - does not pendulum to keep a pot level.                  - must face fore or aft, which is unusual in sailboat               configurations.                   - more places for diesel to leak -- a propane leak that               does not explode is easy to "clean up" -- just open a               window, turn on the blower.                     - I have to imagine anything diesel fired is going to               smell like something that is diesel fired whereas propane               is nearly odorless in comparison when burnt.  If one is on               an unfavorable tack and the exhaust somehow re-enters the               cabin it might be quite irritating.                              Matt                                               To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:57:19 -0700                 Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel oven                                                                                                                     I have one of these available to me for almost                       free: Adriatic                         Diesel Cook Stoves - Dickinson Marine                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Adriatic                                         Diesel Cook Stoves - Dickinson                                         Marine                                      The                                       Adriatic Cook Stove is ideal for                                       medium size vessels 30-45ft.                                       Similar in appearance to the                                       Pacific but provides a larger                                       cooking surface and a wider                                       oven...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View on dickinsonmarine.com                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Preview by Yahoo                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Seems like as pain in the ass? But diesel is                       cool. Thoughts?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       |
33475|33470|2016-04-29 02:23:03|jpronk1|Re: Diesel oven|I like them. A friend has one on his boat and it is great in the spring and fall James  Sent from my iPhone|
33476|33470|2016-04-29 14:19:26|brentswain38|Re: Diesel oven|Good summation of pro and cons.Switching it to stove oil eliminates the diesel smell.That takes an expert to adjust the control valve for stove oil , a bit harder to find ( but does work well in a diesel engine). In some areas stove oil is just clear #1 diesel(  like on Vancouver Island).  Some have a balanced draft with outside air being led in. That way ,a gust of wind on your chimney also is a pressure gust on your intake, so no down draft.|
33477|33470|2016-04-29 16:20:59|opuspaul|Re: Diesel oven|The people I have met who like them seem to use them to heat their boat and never shut them off.   They are popular on fishing boats for this reason.    Fishing boats or boats that operate 24 hours a day always seemed to have a pot on the boil so a diesel stove makes a lot of sense.   The problem is when you are in a hot climate.   Heating up the entire top surface just to heat a pot of water or a kettle takes more time and adds a lot more heat into the boat.   A diesel stove can add a lot of soot to the deck unless everything is running perfectly.   Does everything ever run perfectly?  Don't believe all the scare stories about propane.    Any fuel can kill you if don't show it respect and install your stove and it's tanks and lines properly.   I had many more problems with an old kerosene stove and more chance of fires than I have ever had with propane.   Cheers,   Paul|
33478|33470|2016-04-29 16:34:09|opuspaul|Re: Diesel oven|I once filled my tank with a poor grade of diesel.   I was told  it was probably #2 diesel but I couldn't believe the difference.   I never had any problems with the engine but it was horrible with my heater.   The wax (parafin?) in the fuel would coat the inside of the chimney and eventually start clogging it up.   Once the heater stopped burning efficiently from the lack of draw it would spew soot all over the deck.   That winter, the decks of my boat were an absolute mess.  I had to pull apart and clean my heater every month, rather than once a season.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Good summation of pro and cons.Switching it to stove oil eliminates the diesel smell.That takes an expert to adjust the control valve for stove oil , a bit harder to find ( but does work well in a diesel engine). In some areas stove oil is just clear #1 diesel(  like on Vancouver Island).  Some have a balanced draft with outside air being led in. That way ,a gust of wind on your chimney also is a pressure gust on your intake, so no down draft.|
33479|33470|2016-04-29 18:15:07|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Diesel oven|Propan-Butan aka LPG (liquified petroleum gas) is by far not the completely uncontrollable hazard as which some people try to slander it recurringly.Diesel is a good fuel for boat ovens as long as You have a reasonably high funnel with proper stack-effect and live in areas where a reliable heat source running 24/7 is not an option but mandatory the most part of the year. Diesel might even be a good fuel for an oven in a bigger sailing boat that won't bounce and hop all over the place, an oven on which You might keep the kettle going for the conviniency of a freezing helmsman when guard is changed ...  38'' Steel Swains might fall in this category, in terms of keeping their track and staying calm.To cook, and only cook with no unwanted, wasteful heating going on while cooking in moderate climates, LPG is the cleanest and easiest fuel on sailboats, much safer as alcohol, petroleum or any other fluids which have to be gasified in the one or other sophisticated way before You can burn those properly for a decent cooking; LPG is less smelly and less problematic in terms of getting started, especially compared to diesel, and given You know what LPG does if it once should "escape" accidentially, (''building puddles'' for being heavier than air, sloppily said), You can definitely stay pretty safe with an ex-proof fan in a flexible tube and a gas-warning device down in the deep spot under the oven; and with a strict protocol of keeping up with wearout or corrosion in Your installation, of course.I saw many more severely burnt cabins where diesel stoves, alcohol burners or fancy petroleum cookers went mad than I saw exploded boats where LPG was to blame the last 35 years.Even gasoline (usually on Motorboats) leads to many more calamities including the notorious blasts while / shortly after refueling than LPG in daily use.It is a potentially explosive fuel, so far so right, but it is still a safe and clean one, and a pretty economical one, too, which is often easier to grab than diesel in proper qualities.Cheers G_BAm 29.04.2016 um 22:20 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:                          The people I have met who like them seem to use them to heat their boat and never shut them off.   They are popular on fishing boats for this reason.    Fishing boats or boats that operate 24 hours a day always seemed to have a pot on the boil so a diesel stove makes a lot of sense.   The problem is when you are in a hot climate.   Heating up the entire top surface just to heat a pot of water or a kettle takes more time and adds a lot more heat into the boat.   A diesel stove can add a lot of soot to the deck unless everything is running perfectly.   Does everything ever run perfectly?  Don't believe all the scare stories about propane.    Any fuel can kill you if don't show it respect and install your stove and it's tanks and lines properly.   I had many more problems with an old kerosene stove and more chance of fires than I have ever had with propane.   Cheers,   Paul                          |
33480|33480|2016-04-29 19:29:37|smallboatvoyaguer|Coolant Pipe Size/ Skeg| Couldn't find an answer searching so... What size pipe are people using for the plumbing in the skeg? Galvanized or stainless?Thx-Mar|
33481|33392|2016-04-29 19:33:48|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Yanmar 3tnv82a from genset|Salvaging a 1975 38 foot C&C. I found my engine. It's a Yanmar 3hm35f. It's in great shape and the price is right, free. Tranny, prop shaft, fuel tank, everything. It's a little overkill, but I guess I'm not too concerned. I'd rather have a bit much than not enough.  I am going to have a bunch of boat parts up for sale sometime in the next week or so. There all off of a 38 footer, so would be a good fit for a 36 Swain. All of it will be going for a pretty good deal. I will even have a mast and boom. I will make a list when the time arrives. I'm in Northern Wisconsin. Word.|
33482|33480|2016-04-29 19:41:54|opuspaul|Re: Coolant Pipe Size/ Skeg|I used 3/4 inch galv pipe.  This allowed me to use 1 inch ID hose with the centrifugal pump that came on the front of the engine.  Centrifugal pumps are high volume low pressure pumps and I think 1/2 inch might cause too much restriction and possible cavitation problems.    I wouldn't use stainless.  You are mixing metals for no reason and you will be filling it with anti-freeze.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Couldn't find an answer searching so... What size pipe are people using for the plumbing in the skeg? Galvanized or stainless?Thx-Mar|
33483|33464|2016-04-30 14:32:45|jonhackett1958|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Larry,I'm not getting your email. It seems to be masked or something.email me directly at jonhackett@...|
33484|33464|2016-04-30 14:33:44|jonhackett1958|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Larry,I added pics to this forum.See Tortue2016 in pics|
33485|33464|2016-05-01 13:24:54|Larry Dale|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|I've been away for a couple of days. I saw the pictures on the site thank - you.       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "jonhackett1958@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, April 30, 2016 2:32 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale    #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 --    #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 .ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-photo-title{ clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;} #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-photo{ background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437photo-title           a,  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437photo-title a:active,  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437photo-title a:hover,  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-row { clear:both;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-row div { float:left;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 p { clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-file { width:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-row div div a { text-decoration:none;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437attach-row div div span { font-weight:normal;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 div.ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-file-title { font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-696752337  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 -- #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ad p { margin:0;}  #ygrps-yiv-696752337 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437 #ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-696752337yiv2310970437ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-696752337            Larry,I'm not getting your email. It seems to be masked or something.email me directly at jonhackett@...                   |
33486|33470|2016-05-01 14:12:20|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel oven|                    It always amazes me how adamant folks become about their fuel     choices for stoves and how may generalizations get tossed around.      Stoves for each of the fuel types come in a variety of forms, each     with their own dangers.  For example, the old-style of pressurized     alcohol stoves were definitely hazardous unless well maintained and     their operation completely understood.  On the other hand the     saturated-mat style of Origo alcohol stove has to be the safest boat     stove ever invented (although it does not burn as hot as some other     choices).  Propane is definitely the closest you will ever come to     the convenience and performance of a domestic stove, but it comes at     the cost of eternal vigilance because it is inherently the most     dangerous fuel type.  A propane install done to best-practices is     safe when it goes in, but you must regularly check on the health of     all its components.  It is also the most complicated of all the     fuels requiring additional safety equipment like solenoids, remote     shutoffs and gas detectors.  I agree a propane alarm is a good     safety item, but how many people actually test their propane     detector and check their gas lines on a regular basis?   The problem     is that there is no clear winner for stove fuel, you just have to     choose your poison and remember that within each of the fuel types     their is a wide variety of stove types, cooking performance, quality     of installation, and degree of effort required to keep it safe.            Darren          On 16-04-29 03:02 PM, Giuseppe Bergman       giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            Propan-Butan aka LPG (liquified petroleum gas) is by far               not the completely uncontrollable hazard as which some               people try to slander it recurringly.                                       Diesel is a good fuel for boat ovens as long as You               have a reasonably high funnel with proper stack-effect and               live in areas where a reliable heat source running 24/7 is               not an option but mandatory the most part of the year.                                        Diesel might even be a good fuel for an oven in a               bigger sailing boat that won't bounce and hop all over the               place, an oven on which You might keep the kettle going               for the conviniency of a freezing helmsman when guard is               changed ...  38'' Steel Swains might fall in this               category, in terms of keeping their track and staying               calm.                                       To cook, and only cook with no unwanted, wasteful               heating going on while cooking in moderate climates, LPG               is the cleanest and easiest fuel on sailboats, much safer               as alcohol, petroleum or any other fluids which have to be               gasified in the one or other sophisticated way before You               can burn those properly for a decent cooking;              LPG is less smelly and less problematic in terms of               getting started, especially compared to diesel, and given               You know what LPG does if it once should "escape"               accidentially, (''building puddles'' for being heavier               than air, sloppily said), You can definitely stay pretty               safe with an ex-proof fan in a flexible tube and a               gas-warning device down in the deep spot under the oven;              and with a strict protocol of keeping up with wearout               or corrosion in Your installation, of course.                                       I saw many more severely burnt cabins where diesel               stoves, alcohol burners or fancy petroleum cookers went               mad than I saw exploded boats where LPG was to blame the               last 35 years.                                       Even gasoline (usually on Motorboats) leads to many               more calamities including the notorious blasts while /               shortly after refueling than LPG in daily use.                                       It is a potentially explosive fuel, so far so right,               but it is still a safe and clean one, and a pretty               economical one, too, which is often easier to grab than               diesel in proper qualities.                                       Cheers G_B                                                                                                                                                                                                      Am 29.04.2016 um 22:20 schrieb opusnz@...                     [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                   The people I have met who like them seem to                           use them to heat their boat and never shut                           them off.   They are popular on fishing boats                           for this reason.    Fishing boats or boats                           that operate 24 hours a day always seemed to                           have a pot on the boil so a diesel stove makes                           a lot of sense.   The problem is when you are                           in a hot climate.   Heating up the entire top                           surface just to heat a pot of water or a                           kettle takes more time and adds a lot more                           heat into the boat.   A diesel stove can add a                           lot of soot to the deck unless everything is                           running perfectly.   Does everything ever run                           perfectly?                                                        Don't believe all the scare stories about                           propane.    Any fuel can kill you if don't                           show it respect and install your stove and                           it's tanks and lines properly.   I had many                           more problems with an old kerosene stove and                           more chance of fires than I have ever had with                           propane.   Cheers,   Paul                                                                                                                                                                                                     |
33487|33470|2016-05-01 17:43:08|Hannu Venermo|Re: Diesel oven|                    Yes.       Agreed.     But..       Propane stuff today is cheap, widely available and proven safe.     I use propane at home, by choice.          On 01/05/2016 20:12, Darren Bos       bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:           It       always amazes me how adamant folks become about their fuel choices       for stoves and how may generalizations get tossed around.  Stoves       for each of the fuel types come in a variety of forms, each with       their own dangers.           --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33488|33470|2016-05-01 18:01:24|opuspaul|Re: Diesel oven|In many parts of the world like the South Pacific, propane (butane) or diesel is about the only fuel available.  Kerosene or alcohol can be very difficult to find and either special order or expensive.  I think this is because very few people use kerosene lamps nowadays.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :Yes. Agreed.But.. Propane stuff today is cheap, widely available and proven safe.I use propane at home, by choice.  |
33489|33470|2016-05-02 05:06:26|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Diesel oven|I descend from a realtively well-off western Europe family and was risen in a lavish house, centralheating with bottomless warm water and even a reasonably sized indoor pool in a braggy town just on the first ridges of the northern alps where You'd find really hard, snowy winters back than (what was before man had mastered worldwide climate enhancement, though), intermittent with moderate summers which in fact allowed stopping the heating for a month or two.Shortly: a landscape where proper ways to generate sufficient amounts of warmth all year round are pretty essential.The first flat I moved to after I left my parent's house over thirtyfive Years ago was single woodstove kitchen cooker, woodheated watersupply from a WW II enamel bath boiler and nothing else.Next I moved aboard a more mobile home in a small former post bus, single oven woodheated  for winter and with a tiny diesel-cooking stove, hot showers from the stovetop kettle and nothing else while I was an apprentice in a pretty dirty profession ... not the easy way, but worth it every f***ing single day: warmth and especially warm water regains the worth it really deserves this way, not to mention a cosy living-sleeping-bathroom-kitchen free of the stink any diesel burning device tends to spread all year round when You change places with 'em regularly. Lesson learned: the ladies do not like diesel stinky wagons very much, not to mention cold ones, so this had to be rectified.After I got my degree as a boat builder I moved to the Med and, for some years, lived fulltime aboard a dozen or so different boats which were mine, and a couple more I just transferred or sailed for their owners, doing transfer work usually in those parts of the year when even there (in the Med) You won't get along without proper heating as long as You don't want to risk severely damaging Your health.When not living on the water I usually lived in houses "normal" people both sides of the Alps didn't see as liveable for lack of central heating, lack of pressurized warm water or lack of average western style sanitation (aka flushed toilets), for I despised the idea of paying more than half of my earnings just to stay at a place.I heated and prepared warm water and cooked food with literally every fuel available down to driftwood, collected stock manure and blocks of paper waste, and today in my fifties I definitely do recommend LPG in bottles light enough to lift with one hand (to keep another free one to hold fast) as a cooking fuel, at least when underway.Proper craftsmanship and basic common sense spared me the gaswarning device, specialized solenoids and other stuff I never posessed (while I do know they work because I did install all those for other people): Turning on the bottle, cooking, heating water, burning gas for whatever is needed, being done and turning off the bottle again - that's it for me; there is no easier security protocol, as far as I'm concerned; every time I have to change the bottle, I do have to see and feel the first hose and some of the pipe anyway.There is a manometer in my first hose after the pressure reducer to show me any losses after change of bottles, and looking after the hose of a gimballed stove every day before using it shouldn't be beyond average use of a complicated technical device like a sailing yacht, I suppose.  I do look into my bilges and after the engine oil and monitor the manometer of the freezer coolant, as I do have to keep an eye on the batteries and the chains and ropes when anchored or moored, so knowing there is some gas installation to watch on a daily basis isn't all the hardship, is it? I used LPG for cooking and heating buses and boats, in car engines to supersede high priced gasoline, made use of it to solder and weld, to melt lead and roof-tar and shrink hoses and preheat stubborn bearing cases and aluminium sheets about to be welded and for some two dozens of other more or less useful purposes including filling it into ballons and bring those to audible explosion to wake up bride and groom on wedding days at four o'clock in the morning.Today I'm part of the local pipeline system for natural gas, but before this I even did use those bottles and rubber hoses as cooking supply in my landlubber homes for decades, and all this without a single dangerous failure so far, while I ate cold from the can when reverberated to diesel ovens and alcohol stoves and other sorts of fluidheated devices more than one time, for You simply can't just burn Your standby charcoal ontop a deficient gasoline cooker in a wooden Folke boat anchored in the rainy Yougoslavian November-Bora ....I tried it.You do not do it.It is somewhat the essential "don't try this at home"-experiment You shouldn't even think about trying when abroad, not even in the Yougoslavian middle of nowhere, but in fact a different story ...In short: nothing personal, no ideology, I just liked to share my conclusion of three dozen years experimenting with all sort of fuels because I never ever had somebody to tell me what their -solidly based- recommendation would be, other than tries to sell me shiny little useless overprized crap.something else? ... oh, yeah, definitely: The ladies simply love it, for it's general lack of downsides, from the absence of fuel-smell to no need for refill of tiny tanks in the saloon while on a rocky roaring transverse down to Tunisia ...Cheers G_B Am 01.05.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]:                                     It always amazes me how adamant folks become about their fuel     choices for stoves and how may generalizations get tossed around.      Stoves for each of the fuel types come in a variety of forms, each     with their own dangers.  For example, the old-style of pressurized     alcohol stoves were definitely hazardous unless well maintained and     their operation completely understood.  On the other hand the     saturated-mat style of Origo alcohol stove has to be the safest boat     stove ever invented (although it does not burn as hot as some other     choices).  Propane is definitely the closest you will ever come to     the convenience and performance of a domestic stove, but it comes at     the cost of eternal vigilance because it is inherently the most     dangerous fuel type.  A propane install done to best-practices is     safe when it goes in, but you must regularly check on the health of     all its components.  It is also the most complicated of all the     fuels requiring additional safety equipment like solenoids, remote     shutoffs and gas detectors.  I agree a propane alarm is a good     safety item, but how many people actually test their propane     detector and check their gas lines on a regular basis?   The problem     is that there is no clear winner for stove fuel, you just have to     choose your poison and remember that within each of the fuel types     their is a wide variety of stove types, cooking performance, quality     of installation, and degree of effort required to keep it safe.            Darren          |
33490|33480|2016-05-02 10:23:50|Gordon Schnell|Re: Coolant Pipe Size/ Skeg|I used 2”, the size of hose used in its’ automotive application.  Gord On Apr 29, 2016, at 5:29 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Couldn't find an answer searching so... What size pipe are people using for the plumbing in the skeg? Galvanized or stainless?Thx-Mar|
33491|33470|2016-05-02 13:32:49|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel oven|                    I'm not trying to convert anyone to or from any fuel, I just get     annoyed at folks on all sides of the debate who tout one fuel source     in a biased manner.  I've already said propane is the nicest to use,     but you have to always be willing to check on it.  It may be that     all of the boats that have blown up from propane have done so out of     negligence, but this is a marine environment and things happen.  It     amazes me how many people would never have a gasoline engine in     their boat, but readily accept propane/LPG.  I can think of     installations where I would choose propane, but also those where I     think it's not the best choice.          The other annoyance I have is that folks say "I tried this one stove     it was terrible and therefore all stoves of that fuel type are no     good".  These statements rarely come with any analysis or     disclaimers of why things didn't work out or even enough detail to     figure out the kind of stove was used.  I've used propane, alcohol     and diesel stoves on boats and only commented on what I have used.      The stove I like best right now is a little Maxie that is made in     Australia (although I don't really like the way it is gimballed).      It's gravity fed, puts out more heat than an Origo and I don't have     to deal with propane.  It has the danger that if a burner goes it it     could continue to drain fuel.  However, with a proper tray     underneath the stove, I think this is a risk I can mitigate and like     the fact that these burners burn more like propane.  I also like the     fact, that unlike propane, I don't need a specialized storage     container (whose fittings vary country to country) and I can store     as much alcohol as I want aboard and not worry about whether fuel is     available at the next stop.          For the record, I have no association with Maxie or any company     producing ethanol for fuel.  I do however produce my own     barley-based ethanol for personal consumption :-)            Darren          On 16-05-02 02:06 AM, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...     [origamiboats] wrote:                                       I descend from a realtively well-off western Europe               family and was risen in a lavish house, centralheating               with bottomless warm water and even a reasonably sized               indoor pool in a braggy town just on the first ridges of               the northern alps where You'd find really hard, snowy               winters back than (what was before man had mastered               worldwide climate enhancement, though), intermittent with               moderate summers which in fact allowed stopping the               heating for a month or two.                                       Shortly: a landscape where proper ways to generate               sufficient amounts of warmth all year round are pretty               essential.                                             The first flat I moved to after I left my parent's                 house over thirtyfive Years ago was single woodstove                 kitchen cooker, woodheated watersupply from a WW II                 enamel bath boiler and nothing else.                                             Next I moved aboard a more mobile home in a small                 former post bus, single oven woodheated  for winter and                 with a tiny diesel-cooking stove, hot showers from the                 stovetop kettle and nothing else while I was an                 apprentice in a pretty dirty profession ... not the easy                 way, but worth it every f***ing single day: warmth and                 especially warm water regains the worth it really                 deserves this way, not to mention a cosy                 living-sleeping-bathroom-kitchen free of the stink any                 diesel burning device tends to spread all year round                 when You change places with 'em regularly.                Lesson learned: the ladies do not like diesel stinky                 wagons very much, not to mention cold ones, so this had                 to be rectified.                                             After I got my degree as a boat builder I moved to                 the Med and, for some years, lived fulltime aboard a                 dozen or so different boats which were mine, and a                 couple more I just transferred or sailed for their                 owners, doing transfer work usually in those parts of                 the year when even there (in the Med) You won't get                 along without proper heating as long as You don't want                 to risk severely damaging Your health.                                             When not living on the water I usually lived in                 houses "normal" people both sides of the Alps didn't see                 as liveable for lack of central heating, lack of                 pressurized warm water or lack of average western style                 sanitation (aka flushed toilets), for I despised the                 idea of paying more than half of my earnings just to                 stay at a place.                                             I heated and prepared warm water and cooked food with                 literally every fuel available down to driftwood,                 collected stock manure and blocks of paper waste, and                 today in my fifties I definitely do recommend LPG in                 bottles light enough to lift with one hand (to keep                 another free one to hold fast) as a cooking fuel, at                 least when underway.                                             Proper craftsmanship and basic common sense spared me                 the gaswarning device, specialized solenoids and other                 stuff I never posessed (while I do know they work                 because I did install all those for other people):                Turning on the bottle, cooking, heating water,                 burning gas for whatever is needed, being done and                 turning off the bottle again - that's it for me;                there is no easier security protocol, as far as I'm                 concerned;                every time I have to change the bottle, I do have to                 see and feel the first hose and some of the pipe anyway.                                             There is a manometer in my first hose after the                 pressure reducer to show me any losses after change of                 bottles, and looking after the hose of a gimballed stove                 every day before using it shouldn't be beyond average                 use of a complicated technical device like a sailing                 yacht, I suppose.                 I do look into my bilges and after the engine oil and                 monitor the manometer of the freezer coolant, as I do                 have to keep an eye on the batteries and the chains and                 ropes when anchored or moored, so knowing there is some                 gas installation to watch on a daily basis isn't all the                 hardship, is it?                                              I used LPG for cooking and heating buses and boats,                 in car engines to supersede high priced gasoline, made                 use of it to solder and weld, to melt lead and roof-tar                 and shrink hoses and preheat stubborn bearing cases and                 aluminium sheets about to be welded and for some two                 dozens of other more or less useful purposes including                 filling it into ballons and bring those to audible                 explosion to wake up bride and groom on wedding days at                 four o'clock in the morning.                                             Today I'm part of the local pipeline system for                 natural gas, but before this I even did use those                 bottles and rubber hoses as cooking supply in my                 landlubber homes for decades, and all this without a                 single dangerous failure so far, while I ate cold from                 the can when reverberated to diesel ovens and alcohol                 stoves and other sorts of fluidheated devices more than                 one time, for You simply can't just burn Your standby                 charcoal ontop a deficient gasoline cooker in a wooden                 Folke boat anchored in the rainy Yougoslavian                 November-Bora ....                                             I tried it.                                             You do not do it.                                             It is somewhat the essential "don't try this at                 home"-experiment You shouldn't even think about trying                 when abroad, not even in the Yougoslavian middle of                 nowhere, but in fact a different story ...                                             In short: nothing personal, no ideology, I just liked                 to share my conclusion of three dozen years                 experimenting with all sort of fuels because I never                 ever had somebody to tell me what their -solidly based-                 recommendation would be, other than tries to sell me                 shiny little useless overprized crap.                                             something else? ... oh, yeah, definitely: The ladies                 simply love it, for it's general lack of downsides, from                 the absence of fuel-smell to no need for refill of tiny                 tanks in the saloon while on a rocky roaring transverse                 down to Tunisia ...                                             Cheers G_B                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Am 01.05.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Darren Bos bosdg@...                     [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                    It always amazes me how adamant folks become                           about their fuel choices for stoves and how                           may generalizations get tossed around.  Stoves                           for each of the fuel types come in a variety                           of forms, each with their own dangers.  For                           example, the old-style of pressurized alcohol                           stoves were definitely hazardous unless well                           maintained and their operation completely                           understood.  On the other hand the                           saturated-mat style of Origo alcohol stove has                           to be the safest boat stove ever invented                           (although it does not burn as hot as some                           other choices).  Propane is definitely the                           closest you will ever come to the convenience                           and performance of a domestic stove, but it                           comes at the cost of eternal vigilance because                           it is inherently the most dangerous fuel                           type.  A propane install done to                           best-practices is safe when it goes in, but                           you must regularly check on the health of all                           its components.  It is also the most                           complicated of all the fuels requiring                           additional safety equipment like solenoids,                           remote shutoffs and gas detectors.  I agree a                           propane alarm is a good safety item, but how                           many people actually test their propane                           detector and check their gas lines on a                           regular basis?   The problem is that there is                           no clear winner for stove fuel, you just have                           to choose your poison and remember that within                           each of the fuel types their is a wide variety                           of stove types, cooking performance, quality                           of installation, and degree of effort required                           to keep it safe.                                                        Darren                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     |
33492|33470|2016-05-02 14:17:45|Matt Malone|Re: Diesel oven|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1986718800 .ygrps-yiv-1986718800hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1986718800 .ygrps-yiv-1986718800hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Darren (and others),I have an alcohol stove.   I feed it methanol.   In Canada methanol is cheap, available, and legal with no particular regulations for the purchaser/user -- one can buy it in a hardware store, and use it for anything one wants.  It comes in plastic jugs like anti-freeze and is clearly marked as poisonous.There have been comments on various fuels about their availability around the world -- diesel and propane being more widely available.   Countering this, Darren points out alcohol is easily carried in bulk.   My question is, has anyone run into regulation (law) problems because of alcohol?   I have read some countries have a huge problem with any form of alcohol as a matter of law and temperance (opposition to the consumption of ethanol) and may not distinguish between different types of alcohol, despite the fact other alcohols are poisons not suitable for consumption.  Separately I am guessing some Muslim countries might also for reasons of religious doctrine.   Does anyone have any personal experience with such countries with non-consumption alcohols like one might use for other purposes on a boat:- industrial ethanol (CH3-CH2-OH - non-food grade) that one might use as a fuel, that is not denatured (poisoned) and might theoretically be consumed, - denatured ethanol that is poisoned in a very particular way according to regulations that may vary from one country to the next and may not be considered sufficiently poisoned in all countries,   (In Canada, to my knowledge, all ethanol that is not meant for human consumption must be denatured -- I am guessing there might be an exception for pure reagents and certain industrial applications.)- methanol   CH3OH, the corrosive-to-some-metals-and-most-gaskets and poisonous alcohol that might be avoided as a fuel by some for many good reasons.- isopropyl alcohol, (CH3-CHOH-CH3), typically found as medical disinfecting alcohol in medical supplies, which I have never tried in a stove,- ethylene glycol (HO-CH2-CH2-OH) and other coolants that are very similar to alcohols and are intoxicating despite being poisonous in any quantity and lethal in quantities comparable to a water glass.  - alcohol of any type in a fuel container clearly used for a stoveI have no questions about food grade alcohol -- if they ban it, they ban it, not interested in legal troubles; when it Rome etc.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:28:47 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel oven                                                              I'm not trying to convert anyone to or from any fuel, I just get     annoyed at folks on all sides of the debate who tout one fuel source     in a biased manner.  I've already said propane is the nicest to use,     but you have to always be willing to check on it.  It may be that     all of the boats that have blown up from propane have done so out of     negligence, but this is a marine environment and things happen.  It     amazes me how many people would never have a gasoline engine in     their boat, but readily accept propane/LPG.  I can think of     installations where I would choose propane, but also those where I     think it's not the best choice.          The other annoyance I have is that folks say "I tried this one stove     it was terrible and therefore all stoves of that fuel type are no     good".  These statements rarely come with any analysis or     disclaimers of why things didn't work out or even enough detail to     figure out the kind of stove was used.  I've used propane, alcohol     and diesel stoves on boats and only commented on what I have used.      The stove I like best right now is a little Maxie that is made in     Australia (although I don't really like the way it is gimballed).      It's gravity fed, puts out more heat than an Origo and I don't have     to deal with propane.  It has the danger that if a burner goes it it     could continue to drain fuel.  However, with a proper tray     underneath the stove, I think this is a risk I can mitigate and like     the fact that these burners burn more like propane.  I also like the     fact, that unlike propane, I don't need a specialized storage     container (whose fittings vary country to country) and I can store     as much alcohol as I want aboard and not worry about whether fuel is     available at the next stop.          For the record, I have no association with Maxie or any company     producing ethanol for fuel.  I do however produce my own     barley-based ethanol for personal consumption :-)            Darren          On 16-05-02 02:06 AM, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...     [origamiboats] wrote:                                       I descend from a realtively well-off western Europe               family and was risen in a lavish house, centralheating               with bottomless warm water and even a reasonably sized               indoor pool in a braggy town just on the first ridges of               the northern alps where You'd find really hard, snowy               winters back than (what was before man had mastered               worldwide climate enhancement, though), intermittent with               moderate summers which in fact allowed stopping the               heating for a month or two.                                       Shortly: a landscape where proper ways to generate               sufficient amounts of warmth all year round are pretty               essential.                                             The first flat I moved to after I left my parent's                 house over thirtyfive Years ago was single woodstove                 kitchen cooker, woodheated watersupply from a WW II                 enamel bath boiler and nothing else.                                             Next I moved aboard a more mobile home in a small                 former post bus, single oven woodheated  for winter and                 with a tiny diesel-cooking stove, hot showers from the                 stovetop kettle and nothing else while I was an                 apprentice in a pretty dirty profession ... not the easy                 way, but worth it every f***ing single day: warmth and                 especially warm water regains the worth it really                 deserves this way, not to mention a cosy                 living-sleeping-bathroom-kitchen free of the stink any                 diesel burning device tends to spread all year round                 when You change places with 'em regularly.                Lesson learned: the ladies do not like diesel stinky                 wagons very much, not to mention cold ones, so this had                 to be rectified.                                             After I got my degree as a boat builder I moved to                 the Med and, for some years, lived fulltime aboard a                 dozen or so different boats which were mine, and a                 couple more I just transferred or sailed for their                 owners, doing transfer work usually in those parts of                 the year when even there (in the Med) You won't get                 along without proper heating as long as You don't want                 to risk severely damaging Your health.                                             When not living on the water I usually lived in                 houses "normal" people both sides of the Alps didn't see                 as liveable for lack of central heating, lack of                 pressurized warm water or lack of average western style                 sanitation (aka flushed toilets), for I despised the                 idea of paying more than half of my earnings just to                 stay at a place.                                             I heated and prepared warm water and cooked food with                 literally every fuel available down to driftwood,                 collected stock manure and blocks of paper waste, and                 today in my fifties I definitely do recommend LPG in                 bottles light enough to lift with one hand (to keep                 another free one to hold fast) as a cooking fuel, at                 least when underway.                                             Proper craftsmanship and basic common sense spared me                 the gaswarning device, specialized solenoids and other                 stuff I never posessed (while I do know they work                 because I did install all those for other people):                Turning on the bottle, cooking, heating water,                 burning gas for whatever is needed, being done and                 turning off the bottle again - that's it for me;                there is no easier security protocol, as far as I'm                 concerned;                every time I have to change the bottle, I do have to                 see and feel the first hose and some of the pipe anyway.                                             There is a manometer in my first hose after the                 pressure reducer to show me any losses after change of                 bottles, and looking after the hose of a gimballed stove                 every day before using it shouldn't be beyond average                 use of a complicated technical device like a sailing                 yacht, I suppose.                 I do look into my bilges and after the engine oil and                 monitor the manometer of the freezer coolant, as I do                 have to keep an eye on the batteries and the chains and                 ropes when anchored or moored, so knowing there is some                 gas installation to watch on a daily basis isn't all the                 hardship, is it?                                              I used LPG for cooking and heating buses and boats,                 in car engines to supersede high priced gasoline, made                 use of it to solder and weld, to melt lead and roof-tar                 and shrink hoses and preheat stubborn bearing cases and                 aluminium sheets about to be welded and for some two                 dozens of other more or less useful purposes including                 filling it into ballons and bring those to audible                 explosion to wake up bride and groom on wedding days at                 four o'clock in the morning.                                             Today I'm part of the local pipeline system for                 natural gas, but before this I even did use those                 bottles and rubber hoses as cooking supply in my                 landlubber homes for decades, and all this without a                 single dangerous failure so far, while I ate cold from                 the can when reverberated to diesel ovens and alcohol                 stoves and other sorts of fluidheated devices more than                 one time, for You simply can't just burn Your standby                 charcoal ontop a deficient gasoline cooker in a wooden                 Folke boat anchored in the rainy Yougoslavian                 November-Bora ....                                             I tried it.                                             You do not do it.                                             It is somewhat the essential "don't try this at                 home"-experiment You shouldn't even think about trying                 when abroad, not even in the Yougoslavian middle of                 nowhere, but in fact a different story ...                                             In short: nothing personal, no ideology, I just liked                 to share my conclusion of three dozen years                 experimenting with all sort of fuels because I never                 ever had somebody to tell me what their -solidly based-                 recommendation would be, other than tries to sell me                 shiny little useless overprized crap.                                             something else? ... oh, yeah, definitely: The ladies                 simply love it, for it's general lack of downsides, from                 the absence of fuel-smell to no need for refill of tiny                 tanks in the saloon while on a rocky roaring transverse                 down to Tunisia ...                                             Cheers G_B                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Am 01.05.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Darren Bos bosdg@...                     [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                    It always amazes me how adamant folks become                           about their fuel choices for stoves and how                           may generalizations get tossed around.  Stoves                           for each of the fuel types come in a variety                           of forms, each with their own dangers.  For                           example, the old-style of pressurized alcohol                           stoves were definitely hazardous unless well                           maintained and their operation completely                           understood.  On the other hand the                           saturated-mat style of Origo alcohol stove has                           to be the safest boat stove ever invented                           (although it does not burn as hot as some                           other choices).  Propane is definitely the                           closest you will ever come to the convenience                           and performance of a domestic stove, but it                           comes at the cost of eternal vigilance because                           it is inherently the most dangerous fuel                           type.  A propane install done to                           best-practices is safe when it goes in, but                           you must regularly check on the health of all                           its components.  It is also the most                           complicated of all the fuels requiring                           additional safety equipment like solenoids,                           remote shutoffs and gas detectors.  I agree a                           propane alarm is a good safety item, but how                           many people actually test their propane                           detector and check their gas lines on a                           regular basis?   The problem is that there is                           no clear winner for stove fuel, you just have                           to choose your poison and remember that within                           each of the fuel types their is a wide variety                           of stove types, cooking performance, quality                           of installation, and degree of effort required                           to keep it safe.                                                        Darren                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1986718800 .ygrps-yiv-1986718800ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1986718800ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1986718800 .ygrps-yiv-1986718800ExternalClass 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33493|33470|2016-05-02 14:57:04|Hannu Venermo|Re: Diesel oven|                    No problems exist.     With 30 years experience in africa et al and muslim et al       countries as an expat not tourist and lots of business experience.       Industrial alcohol is not "alcohol" to humans or to muslims .. its       a heating fuel.       I grew up with/around arab countries.          Its not a drink or drug.          Anyone having the chemical know-how to do the (double iirc)       separation of pure alcohol can quite easily strip it easier and       cheaper from any feedstock.       Lets not get into this in detail, please.          Burning alcohol is widely available throughout the world.     But gas is more available, and much better, imo, ime.       Speaking from == 40 years experience, and 40+ countries       experience.       So I´ve been there, done that, and recommend gas.                      On 02/05/2016 20:16, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:           Darren (and others),              I have an alcohol stove.   I feed it methanol.   In Canada       methanol is cheap, available, and legal with no particular       regulations for the purchaser/user -- one can buy it in a hardware       store, and use it for anything one wants.  It comes in plastic       jugs like anti-freeze and is clearly marked as poisonous.              There have been comments on various fuels about their availability       around the world -- diesel and propane being more widely       available.   Countering this, Darren points out alcohol is easily       carried in bulk.   My question is, has anyone run into regulation       (law) problems because of alcohol?          --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33494|33470|2016-05-02 15:30:30|Matt Malone|Re: Diesel oven|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-297363703 .ygrps-yiv-297363703hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-297363703 .ygrps-yiv-297363703hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> The reason I ask is, I was listening to a presentation by a cruiser who had sailed the Caribbean and mentioned one country where any alcohol on board was a severe problem.  I know of other countries where it is prohiMatt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 May 2016 20:57:01 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel oven                                                              No problems exist.     With 30 years experience in africa et al and muslim et al       countries as an expat not tourist and lots of business experience.       Industrial alcohol is not "alcohol" to humans or to muslims .. its       a heating fuel.       I grew up with/around arab countries.          Its not a drink or drug.          Anyone having the chemical know-how to do the (double iirc)       separation of pure alcohol can quite easily strip it easier and       cheaper from any feedstock.       Lets not get into this in detail, please.          Burning alcohol is widely available throughout the world.     But gas is more available, and much better, imo, ime.       Speaking from == 40 years experience, and 40+ countries       experience.       So I´ve been there, done that, and recommend gas.                      On 02/05/2016 20:16, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:           Darren (and others),              I have an alcohol stove.   I feed it methanol.   In Canada       methanol is cheap, available, and legal with no particular       regulations for the purchaser/user -- one can buy it in a hardware       store, and use it for anything one wants.  It comes in plastic       jugs like anti-freeze and is clearly marked as poisonous.              There have been comments on various fuels about their availability       around the world -- diesel and propane being more widely       available.   Countering this, Darren points out alcohol is easily       carried in bulk.   My question is, has anyone run into regulation       (law) problems because of alcohol?          --  -hanermo (cnc designs)                                      <!-- #ygrps-yiv-297363703 .ygrps-yiv-297363703ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-297363703ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-297363703 .ygrps-yiv-297363703ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-297363703ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-297363703 .ygrps-yiv-297363703ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-297363703ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-297363703ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-297363703 .ygrps-yiv-297363703ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-297363703ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-297363703ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-297363703 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33495|33470|2016-05-02 15:59:11|Hannu Venermo|Re: Diesel oven|                    Yes, fair enough.       In my experience cooking/heating/fuel etc. is never treated as       alcohol-       In my extensive experience all sorts of nonsense are sometimes       used by some officials in some countries for personal revenue.          Alcohol for consumption onboard is commonly/mostly always       registered/controlled, and heavy taxes are a major reason. Pure       alcohol costs == 0.5€ - 1 € /l retail in the store.     Normal alcohol costs are == 10-30x more, depending. Ie a 40%       cheap vodka at 10€/0.33 l vs grey goose at 30-40€.                    On 02/05/2016 21:26, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:           The reason I ask is, I was listening to a presentation       by a cruiser who had sailed the Caribbean and mentioned one       country where any alcohol on board was a severe problem.  I know       of other countries where it is prohi              Matt           --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33496|33470|2016-05-02 16:20:45|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel oven|                    Thanks, Matt          I've tried methanol, but it has an even lower heat of combustion     than ethanol (LHV for propane, ethanol and methanol are          19 934, 12 412 and 8 570 BTU/lb respectively).  Also, when I used an     Origo stove I felt that I wasn't getting absolutely complete     combustion and didn't like the idea of breathing Methanol.          Darren               On 16-05-02 11:16 AM, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                      Darren (and others),                              I have an alcohol stove.   I feed it methanol.   In Canada               methanol is cheap, available, and legal with no particular               regulations for the purchaser/user -- one can buy it in a               hardware store, and use it for anything one wants.  It               comes in plastic jugs like anti-freeze and is clearly               marked as poisonous.                              There have been comments on various fuels about their               availability around the world -- diesel and propane being               more widely available.   Countering this, Darren points               out alcohol is easily carried in bulk.   My question is,               has anyone run into regulation (law) problems because of               alcohol?   I have read some countries have a huge problem               with any form of alcohol as a matter of law and temperance               (opposition to the consumption of ethanol) and may not               distinguish between different types of alcohol, despite               the fact other alcohols are poisons not suitable for               consumption.  Separately I am guessing some Muslim               countries might also for reasons of religious doctrine.                 Does anyone have any personal experience with such               countries with non-consumption alcohols like one might use               for other purposes on a boat:                              - industrial ethanol (CH3-CH2-OH - non-food grade) that               one might use as a fuel, that is not denatured (poisoned)               and might theoretically be consumed,                               - denatured ethanol that is poisoned in a very particular               way according to regulations that may vary from one               country to the next and may not be considered sufficiently               poisoned in all countries,   (In Canada, to my knowledge,               all ethanol that is not meant for human consumption must               be denatured -- I am guessing there might be an exception               for pure reagents and certain industrial applications.)                              - methanol   CH3OH, the               corrosive-to-some-metals-and-most-gaskets and poisonous               alcohol that might be avoided as a fuel by some for many               good reasons.                              - isopropyl alcohol, (CH3-CHOH-CH3), typically found as               medical disinfecting alcohol in medical supplies, which I               have never tried in a stove,                              - ethylene glycol (HO-CH2-CH2-OH) and other coolants that               are very similar to alcohols and are intoxicating despite               being poisonous in any quantity and lethal in quantities               comparable to a water glass.                                - alcohol of any type in a fuel container clearly used for               a stove                              I have no questions about food grade alcohol -- if they               ban it, they ban it, not interested in legal troubles;               when it Rome etc.                                 Matt                                                              To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                 Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:28:47 -0700                 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel oven                                                                                             I'm not trying to convert                       anyone to or from any fuel, I just get annoyed at                       folks on all sides of the debate who tout one fuel                       source in a biased manner.  I've already said                       propane is the nicest to use, but you have to                       always be willing to check on it.  It may be that                       all of the boats that have blown up from propane                       have done so out of negligence, but this is a                       marine environment and things happen.  It amazes                       me how many people would never have a gasoline                       engine in their boat, but readily accept                       propane/LPG.  I can think of installations where I                       would choose propane, but also those where I think                       it's not the best choice.                                              The other annoyance I have is that folks say "I                       tried this one stove it was terrible and therefore                       all stoves of that fuel type are no good".  These                       statements rarely come with any analysis or                       disclaimers of why things didn't work out or even                       enough detail to figure out the kind of stove was                       used.  I've used propane, alcohol and diesel                       stoves on boats and only commented on what I have                       used.  The stove I like best right now is a little                       Maxie that is made in Australia (although I don't                       really like the way it is gimballed).  It's                       gravity fed, puts out more heat than an Origo and                       I don't have to deal with propane.  It has the                       danger that if a burner goes it it could continue                       to drain fuel.  However, with a proper tray                       underneath the stove, I think this is a risk I can                       mitigate and like the fact that these burners burn                       more like propane.  I also like the fact, that                       unlike propane, I don't need a specialized storage                       container (whose fittings vary country to country)                       and I can store as much alcohol as I want aboard                       and not worry about whether fuel is available at                       the next stop.                                              For the record, I have no association with Maxie                       or any company producing ethanol for fuel.  I do                       however produce my own barley-based ethanol for                       personal consumption :-)                                                Darren                                              On 16-05-02 02:06 AM, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...                       [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                                                  I descend from a                           realtively well-off western Europe family and                           was risen in a lavish house, centralheating                           with bottomless warm water and even a                           reasonably sized indoor pool in a braggy town                           just on the first ridges of the northern alps                           where You'd find really hard, snowy winters                           back than (what was before man had mastered                           worldwide climate enhancement, though),                           intermittent with moderate summers which in                           fact allowed stopping the heating for a month                           or two.                                                                                 Shortly: a landscape where proper ways to                             generate sufficient amounts of warmth all                             year round are pretty essential.                                                                                       The first flat I moved to after I left                               my parent's house over thirtyfive Years                               ago was single woodstove kitchen cooker,                               woodheated watersupply from a WW II enamel                               bath boiler and nothing else.                                                                                       Next I moved aboard a more mobile home                               in a small former post bus, single oven                               woodheated  for winter and with a tiny                               diesel-cooking stove, hot showers from the                               stovetop kettle and nothing else while I                               was an apprentice in a pretty dirty                               profession ... not the easy way, but worth                               it every f***ing single day: warmth and                               especially warm water regains the worth it                               really deserves this way, not to mention a                               cosy living-sleeping-bathroom-kitchen free                               of the stink any diesel burning device                               tends to spread all year round when You                               change places with 'em regularly.                              Lesson learned: the ladies do not like                               diesel stinky wagons very much, not to                               mention cold ones, so this had to be                               rectified.                                                                                       After I got my degree as a boat builder                               I moved to the Med and, for some years,                               lived fulltime aboard a dozen or so                               different boats which were mine, and a                               couple more I just transferred or sailed                               for their owners, doing transfer work                               usually in those parts of the year when                               even there (in the Med) You won't get                               along without proper heating as long as                               You don't want to risk severely damaging                               Your health.                                                                                       When not living on the water I usually                               lived in houses "normal" people both sides                               of the Alps didn't see as liveable for                               lack of central heating, lack of                               pressurized warm water or lack of average                               western style sanitation (aka flushed                               toilets), for I despised the idea of                               paying more than half of my earnings just                               to stay at a place.                                                                                       I heated and prepared warm water and                               cooked food with literally every fuel                               available down to driftwood, collected                               stock manure and blocks of paper waste,                               and today in my fifties I definitely do                               recommend LPG in bottles light enough to                               lift with one hand (to keep another free                               one to hold fast) as a cooking fuel, at                               least when underway.                                                                                       Proper craftsmanship and basic common                               sense spared me the gaswarning device,                               specialized solenoids and other stuff I                               never posessed (while I do know they work                               because I did install all those for other                               people):                              Turning on the bottle, cooking, heating                               water, burning gas for whatever is needed,                               being done and turning off the bottle                               again - that's it for me;                              there is no easier security protocol,                               as far as I'm concerned;                              every time I have to change the bottle,                               I do have to see and feel the first hose                               and some of the pipe anyway.                                                                                       There is a manometer in my first hose                               after the pressure reducer to show me any                               losses after change of bottles, and                               looking after the hose of a gimballed                               stove every day before using it shouldn't                               be beyond average use of a complicated                               technical device like a sailing yacht, I                               suppose.                               I do look into my bilges and after the                               engine oil and monitor the manometer of                               the freezer coolant, as I do have to keep                               an eye on the batteries and the chains and                               ropes when anchored or moored, so knowing                               there is some gas installation to watch on                               a daily basis isn't all the hardship, is                               it?                                                                                        I used LPG for cooking and heating                               buses and boats, in car engines to                               supersede high priced gasoline, made use                               of it to solder and weld, to melt lead and                               roof-tar and shrink hoses and preheat                               stubborn bearing cases and aluminium                               sheets about to be welded and for some two                               dozens of other more or less useful                               purposes including filling it into ballons                               and bring those to audible explosion to                               wake up bride and groom on wedding days at                               four o'clock in the morning.                                                                                       Today I'm part of the local pipeline                               system for natural gas, but before this I                               even did use those bottles and rubber                               hoses as cooking supply in my landlubber                               homes for decades, and all this without a                               single dangerous failure so far, while I                               ate cold from the can when reverberated to                               diesel ovens and alcohol stoves and other                               sorts of fluidheated devices more than one                               time, for You simply can't just burn Your                               standby charcoal ontop a deficient                               gasoline cooker in a wooden Folke boat                               anchored in the rainy Yougoslavian                               November-Bora ....                                                                                       I tried it.                                                                                       You do not do it.                                                                                       It is somewhat the essential "don't try                               this at home"-experiment You shouldn't                               even think about trying when abroad, not                               even in the Yougoslavian middle of                               nowhere, but in fact a different story ...                                                                                       In short: nothing personal, no                               ideology, I just liked to share my                               conclusion of three dozen years                               experimenting with all sort of fuels                               because I never ever had somebody to tell                               me what their -solidly based-                               recommendation would be, other than tries                               to sell me shiny little useless overprized                               crap.                                                                                       something else? ... oh, yeah,                               definitely: The ladies simply love it, for                               it's general lack of downsides, from the                               absence of fuel-smell to no need for                               refill of tiny tanks in the saloon while                               on a rocky roaring transverse down to                               Tunisia ...                                                                                       Cheers G_B                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Am 01.05.2016 um 20:12 schrieb                                   Darren Bos bosdg@...                                   [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                             It always                                       amazes me how adamant folks become                                       about their fuel choices for                                       stoves and how may generalizations                                       get tossed around.  Stoves for                                       each of the fuel types come in a                                       variety of forms, each with their                                       own dangers.  For example, the                                       old-style of pressurized alcohol                                       stoves were definitely hazardous                                       unless well maintained and their                                       operation completely understood.                                        On the other hand the                                       saturated-mat style of Origo                                       alcohol stove has to be the safest                                       boat stove ever invented (although                                       it does not burn as hot as some                                       other choices).  Propane is                                       definitely the closest you will                                       ever come to the convenience and                                       performance of a domestic stove,                                       but it comes at the cost of                                       eternal vigilance because it is                                       inherently the most dangerous fuel                                       type.  A propane install done to                                       best-practices is safe when it                                       goes in, but you must regularly                                       check on the health of all its                                       components.  It is also the most                                       complicated of all the fuels                                       requiring additional safety                                       equipment like solenoids, remote                                       shutoffs and gas detectors.  I                                       agree a propane alarm is a good                                       safety item, but how many people                                       actually test their propane                                       detector and check their gas lines                                       on a regular basis?   The problem                                       is that there is no clear winner                                       for stove fuel, you just have to                                       choose your poison and remember                                       that within each of the fuel types                                       their is a wide variety of stove                                       types, cooking performance,                                       quality of installation, and                                       degree of effort required to keep                                       it safe.                                                                                Darren                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  |
33497|33470|2016-05-02 16:31:20|opuspaul|Re: Diesel oven|When I was back packing in India there are dry states where alcohol was so restricted that it was difficult to buy medical alcohol for cuts and sores.   The Indians will drink anything and there have been many tragedies with mass poisonings so I think stove alcohol would be difficult to find.    I worked with a guy who got a certificate from a doctor saying he was an  alcoholic.   It was then legal for him to buy anything.   :)    At the same time, I could find black market drinking alcohol almost anywhere.    All I had to do was find a line-up that was out of place and it was probably the bootlegger.    I needed it for the overnight train trips.   They made a very nice 12 year old Rum for about $4 a litre but I am not sure it would burn in a stove.   It was the same sort of situation in other Muslim states like Bangladesh and Brunei.  I never saw any methanol in the South Pacific.   The only "alternate fuel"  I ever saw was kerosene but like I said before, it was extremely expensive.    I guess you could have tried some cleaning fluids but the cost would also have been prohibitive.   This was about 10 years ago.   It is probably much worse now with everybody using LED lights and most villages running generators or using solar panels.   Paul|
33498|33470|2016-05-03 17:47:30|brentswain38|Re: Diesel oven|I have built a wood stove for  a friend who was spending over $200 a month on diesel for his heating stove, on a 40 footer. The beaches here are piled high with wood, free for the taking( Not the case in suburbia tho)|
33499|1938|2016-05-03 17:48:47|charlesbugeja86|Weight|Can anyone tell me as to how much would a 26' origami steel boat weighs when completely finished?|
33500|1938|2016-05-03 17:49:52|brentswain38|Re: Weight|6700 lbs empty.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <charlesbugeja86@...> wrote :Can anyone tell me as to how much would a 26' origami steel boat weighs when completely finished?|
33501|33470|2016-05-03 18:03:27|Matt Malone|Re: Diesel oven|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1740847923 .ygrps-yiv-1740847923hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1740847923 .ygrps-yiv-1740847923hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Yes, there is an insane amount of wood on some BC beaches.   Pacific Rim was piled 10 feet deep in places with logs.  What struck me though was the stuff was so infiltrated with sand that I would be reluctant to use any chainsaw I am fond of on it.   Same with a handsaw.   How do you make beach wood small enough to fit into your stove?   I did not see that much stuff that was smaller than log-sized.   Next question... Much of the organic debris I have seen washed up by storms in other places is palm fronds and such that was green before it dried.   It is my experience than anything other than wood tends to smoke a lot.   I have not tried putting any formerly green material into a catalytic stove (that is meant to complete burning and produce less smoke).    How does the Brent stove handle non-wood, does it produce a lot of smoke?   Smoke is corrosive, how do you deal with that?Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:47:26 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel oven                                                   I have built a wood stove for  a friend who was spending over $200 a month on diesel for his heating stove, on a 40 footer. 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33502|33470|2016-05-03 23:05:12|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Diesel oven|I personally never had problems with import / posession of fuels of any kind as far as I sailed in Europe, Africa and Middle East (including Iran and Sauds Kingdom);Alcohol in bottles is another story.German customs and taxation tends to be a major pain in the ass if real high quality high vol % alcohol without technically troublesome poisoning is sought after in bulk for building up shellac surfaces on antiques, for example, but that's not an general fuel either.When it comes to the availability You do have to bring Your own in quite some areas of the world if alcohol is Your choice, I'm afraid; kerosene might be a bit easier to grab but still not anywhere in acceptable qualities., while I never had trouble to get my gasbottles filled in ports and harbours.The gas is the same, and so are the pressures it is delivered under, only the threads of the taps differ (1/4" lefthanded in Europe).I have an additional 15 kg special bottle I can refill at any filling station which sells Autogas (still the same stuff, just cheaper for tax reasons), and bring all four different adapters generally used all over Europe to fill Automotve tanks, as well as some different tubes and fittings for normal gasbottles ("my" side 1/4" lefthanded, different fittings for different outlets on the other one.) I'd like to add a word to safety of fuels for stoves and ovens:What I count as a safety advantage of gas (LPG) is: if Your burner might once get mad and burn crazy, to high, not anymore adjustable or out of any control, You simply cut the line with the very ball taps You had to install anyway, or, worst case, cut it at the bottle top with it's regular closing tap, and the fire usually stops pretty easy with lack of supply.Not so with cookers which have their reservoir directly underneath the burners, like all alcohol or kerosene cookers that I know do have:kerosene or petroleum cookers use pressure together with rising temperature to gasify the liquid fuel from the reservoir to enable burning kerosene-gas in the tuyère at all, that's why those have to be pre-heated or / and pre-pumped to generate sufficient pressure;alcohol burners also need the gas-form of the fuel to burn properly, while the gas is produced from the liquid by the heat it produces while burning itself ... a self-accellerating process You have to keep in strict control to prevent burning the headliner next, and if anything goes south quickly, You have to get rid of the unmannerly burner TOGETHER with it's reservoir by tossing it over board after getting it in any way out of the cabin, by hand of course .... so You have to get way nearer to the motherf***er  than I would like to come towards a mad burner for sure.But still, gas is highly explosive and to the brim full of potentially fatal energy ... that's why I like it so much !8-}Cheers G_BAm 02.05.2016 um 20:16 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                            Darren (and others),I have an alcohol stove.   I feed it methanol.   In Canada methanol is cheap, available, and legal with no particular regulations for the purchaser/user -- one can buy it in a hardware store, and use it for anything one wants.  It comes in plastic jugs like anti-freeze and is clearly marked as poisonous.There have been comments on various fuels about their availability around the world -- diesel and propane being more widely available.   Countering this, Darren points out alcohol is easily carried in bulk.   My question is, has anyone run into regulation (law) problems because of alcohol?   I have read some countries have a huge problem with any form of alcohol as a matter of law and temperance (opposition to the consumption of ethanol) and may not distinguish between different types of alcohol, despite the fact other alcohols are poisons not suitable for consumption.  Separately I am guessing some Muslim countries might also for reasons of religious doctrine.   Does anyone have any personal experience with such countries with non-consumption alcohols like one might use for other purposes on a boat:- industrial ethanol (CH3-CH2-OH - non-food grade) that one might use as a fuel, that is not denatured (poisoned) and might theoretically be consumed, - denatured ethanol that is poisoned in a very particular way according to regulations that may vary from one country to the next and may not be considered sufficiently poisoned in all countries,   (In Canada, to my knowledge, all ethanol that is not meant for human consumption must be denatured -- I am guessing there might be an exception for pure reagents and certain industrial applications.)- methanol   CH3OH, the corrosive-to-some-metals-and-most-gaskets and poisonous alcohol that might be avoided as a fuel by some for many good reasons.- isopropyl alcohol, (CH3-CHOH-CH3), typically found as medical disinfecting alcohol in medical supplies, which I have never tried in a stove,- ethylene glycol (HO-CH2-CH2-OH) and other coolants that are very similar to alcohols and are intoxicating despite being poisonous in any quantity and lethal in quantities comparable to a water glass.  - alcohol of any type in a fuel container clearly used for a stoveI have no questions about food grade alcohol -- if they ban it, they ban it, not interested in legal troubles; when it Rome etc.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:28:47 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel oven                                                              I'm not trying to convert anyone to or from any fuel, I just get     annoyed at folks on all sides of the debate who tout one fuel source     in a biased manner.  I've already said propane is the nicest to use,     but you have to always be willing to check on it.  It may be that     all of the boats that have blown up from propane have done so out of     negligence, but this is a marine environment and things happen.  It     amazes me how many people would never have a gasoline engine in     their boat, but readily accept propane/LPG.  I can think of     installations where I would choose propane, but also those where I     think it's not the best choice.          The other annoyance I have is that folks say "I tried this one stove     it was terrible and therefore all stoves of that fuel type are no     good".  These statements rarely come with any analysis or     disclaimers of why things didn't work out or even enough detail to     figure out the kind of stove was used.  I've used propane, alcohol     and diesel stoves on boats and only commented on what I have used.      The stove I like best right now is a little Maxie that is made in     Australia (although I don't really like the way it is gimballed).      It's gravity fed, puts out more heat than an Origo and I don't have     to deal with propane.  It has the danger that if a burner goes it it     could continue to drain fuel.  However, with a proper tray     underneath the stove, I think this is a risk I can mitigate and like     the fact that these burners burn more like propane.  I also like the     fact, that unlike propane, I don't need a specialized storage     container (whose fittings vary country to country) and I can store     as much alcohol as I want aboard and not worry about whether fuel is     available at the next stop.          For the record, I have no association with Maxie or any company     producing ethanol for fuel.  I do however produce my own     barley-based ethanol for personal consumption :-)            Darren          On 16-05-02 02:06 AM, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...     [origamiboats] wrote:                                      I descend from a realtively well-off western Europe               family and was risen in a lavish house, centralheating               with bottomless warm water and even a reasonably sized               indoor pool in a braggy town just on the first ridges of               the northern alps where You'd find really hard, snowy               winters back than (what was before man had mastered               worldwide climate enhancement, though), intermittent with               moderate summers which in fact allowed stopping the               heating for a month or two.                                       Shortly: a landscape where proper ways to generate               sufficient amounts of warmth all year round are pretty               essential.                                             The first flat I moved to after I left my parent's                 house over thirtyfive Years ago was single woodstove                 kitchen cooker, woodheated watersupply from a WW II                 enamel bath boiler and nothing else.                                             Next I moved aboard a more mobile home in a small                 former post bus, single oven woodheated  for winter and                 with a tiny diesel-cooking stove, hot showers from the                 stovetop kettle and nothing else while I was an                 apprentice in a pretty dirty profession ... not the easy                 way, but worth it every f***ing single day: warmth and                 especially warm water regains the worth it really                 deserves this way, not to mention a cosy                 living-sleeping-bathroom-kitchen free of the stink any                 diesel burning device tends to spread all year round                 when You change places with 'em regularly.                Lesson learned: the ladies do not like diesel stinky                 wagons very much, not to mention cold ones, so this had                 to be rectified.                                             After I got my degree as a boat builder I moved to                 the Med and, for some years, lived fulltime aboard a                 dozen or so different boats which were mine, and a                 couple more I just transferred or sailed for their                 owners, doing transfer work usually in those parts of                 the year when even there (in the Med) You won't get                 along without proper heating as long as You don't want                 to risk severely damaging Your health.                                             When not living on the water I usually lived in                 houses "normal" people both sides of the Alps didn't see                 as liveable for lack of central heating, lack of                 pressurized warm water or lack of average western style                 sanitation (aka flushed toilets), for I despised the                 idea of paying more than half of my earnings just to                 stay at a place.                                             I heated and prepared warm water and cooked food with                 literally every fuel available down to driftwood,                 collected stock manure and blocks of paper waste, and                 today in my fifties I definitely do recommend LPG in                 bottles light enough to lift with one hand (to keep                 another free one to hold fast) as a cooking fuel, at                 least when underway.                                             Proper craftsmanship and basic common sense spared me                 the gaswarning device, specialized solenoids and other                 stuff I never posessed (while I do know they work                 because I did install all those for other people):                Turning on the bottle, cooking, heating water,                 burning gas for whatever is needed, being done and                 turning off the bottle again - that's it for me;                there is no easier security protocol, as far as I'm                 concerned;                every time I have to change the bottle, I do have to                 see and feel the first hose and some of the pipe anyway.                                             There is a manometer in my first hose after the                 pressure reducer to show me any losses after change of                 bottles, and looking after the hose of a gimballed stove                 every day before using it shouldn't be beyond average                 use of a complicated technical device like a sailing                 yacht, I suppose.                 I do look into my bilges and after the engine oil and                 monitor the manometer of the freezer coolant, as I do                 have to keep an eye on the batteries and the chains and                 ropes when anchored or moored, so knowing there is some                 gas installation to watch on a daily basis isn't all the                 hardship, is it?                                              I used LPG for cooking and heating buses and boats,                 in car engines to supersede high priced gasoline, made                 use of it to solder and weld, to melt lead and roof-tar                 and shrink hoses and preheat stubborn bearing cases and                 aluminium sheets about to be welded and for some two                 dozens of other more or less useful purposes including                 filling it into ballons and bring those to audible                 explosion to wake up bride and groom on wedding days at                 four o'clock in the morning.                                             Today I'm part of the local pipeline system for                 natural gas, but before this I even did use those                 bottles and rubber hoses as cooking supply in my                 landlubber homes for decades, and all this without a                 single dangerous failure so far, while I ate cold from                 the can when reverberated to diesel ovens and alcohol                 stoves and other sorts of fluidheated devices more than                 one time, for You simply can't just burn Your standby                 charcoal ontop a deficient gasoline cooker in a wooden                 Folke boat anchored in the rainy Yougoslavian                 November-Bora ....                                             I tried it.                                             You do not do it.                                             It is somewhat the essential "don't try this at                 home"-experiment You shouldn't even think about trying                 when abroad, not even in the Yougoslavian middle of                 nowhere, but in fact a different story ...                                             In short: nothing personal, no ideology, I just liked                 to share my conclusion of three dozen years                 experimenting with all sort of fuels because I never                 ever had somebody to tell me what their -solidly based-                 recommendation would be, other than tries to sell me                 shiny little useless overprized crap.                                             something else? ... oh, yeah, definitely: The ladies                 simply love it, for it's general lack of downsides, from                 the absence of fuel-smell to no need for refill of tiny                 tanks in the saloon while on a rocky roaring transverse                 down to Tunisia ...                                             Cheers G_B                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Am 01.05.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Darren Bos bosdg@...                     [origamiboats]:                                                                                                                                    It always amazes me how adamant folks become                           about their fuel choices for stoves and how                           may generalizations get tossed around.  Stoves                           for each of the fuel types come in a variety                           of forms, each with their own dangers.  For                           example, the old-style of pressurized alcohol                           stoves were definitely hazardous unless well                           maintained and their operation completely                           understood.  On the other hand the                           saturated-mat style of Origo alcohol stove has                           to be the safest boat stove ever invented                           (although it does not burn as hot as some                           other choices).  Propane is definitely the                           closest you will ever come to the convenience                           and performance of a domestic stove, but it                           comes at the cost of eternal vigilance because                           it is inherently the most dangerous fuel                           type.  A propane install done to                           best-practices is safe when it goes in, but                           you must regularly check on the health of all                           its components.  It is also the most                           complicated of all the fuels requiring                           additional safety equipment like solenoids,                           remote shutoffs and gas detectors.  I agree a                           propane alarm is a good safety item, but how                           many people actually test their propane                           detector and check their gas lines on a                           regular basis?   The problem is that there is                           no clear winner for stove fuel, you just have                           to choose your poison and remember that within                           each of the fuel types their is a wide variety                           of stove types, cooking performance, quality                           of installation, and degree of effort required                           to keep it safe.                                                        Darren                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      		 	   		                             |
33503|33480|2016-05-04 02:24:14|brentswain38|Re: Coolant Pipe Size/ Skeg|I have been using 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless, altho 1/2 inch has worked for a 20 HP diesel---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Couldn't find an answer searching so... What size pipe are people using for the plumbing in the skeg? Galvanized or stainless?Thx-Mar|
33504|33470|2016-05-04 17:07:14|brentswain38|Re: Diesel oven|Up until about 3 years ago when I got my first chain saw, I always found enough small pieces to get me by. You find more small stuff in more protected areas that Long beach.Fir bark burns like coal.Yes, my $125 dollar chain sew needs a lot of sharpening, due to sand in logs .but a new chain is only $25 installed, and the savings are exponentially greater than that. Cheapies are disposable , and you always get at least 3 years or more use, for your $125 . Far cheaper than $200 a month for oil.In the rainiest weather ,cut a foot off the end of a  log ,and inside it is bone dry.My stovepipes are stainless type 316 14 gauge, and titanium. No corrosion problems in the last 32 years  of use. Coconut husks burn easier , but where there are coconuts , there is less need for heat.|
33505|33464|2016-05-06 00:30:57|gerard.laverty|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Hi Jon, I tried sending to your email address. If the boat has not already sold could you reply to me at my gmail address. glaverty97@... I would like to come and have a look at it.  Sincerely,  Gerard.|
33506|33506|2016-05-06 08:56:41|inter4905|Bilge keel plans|Brent,Ican you seel the plans forthe twins keel only?Thanks, Martin|
33507|33506|2016-05-06 08:59:27|mountain man|Re: Bilge keel plans|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-13307444 .ygrps-yiv-13307444hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-13307444 .ygrps-yiv-13307444hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I meant sell the plans for the twins keelTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 05:56:40 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   Brent,Ican you seel the plans forthe twins keel only?Thanks, Martin                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-13307444 .ygrps-yiv-13307444ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-13307444ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-13307444 .ygrps-yiv-13307444ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-13307444ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-13307444 .ygrps-yiv-13307444ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-13307444ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-13307444ecxhd { 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33508|33506|2016-05-06 10:31:41|jpronk1|Re: Bilge keel plans|The plans include bilge keel and single keelSent from my iPhone On May 6, 2016, at 8:58 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                                I meant sell the plans for the twins keelTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 05:56:40 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   Brent,Ican you seel the plans forthe twins keel only?Thanks, Martin                                 		 	   		                             |
33509|33506|2016-05-06 11:47:54|mountain man|Re: Bilge keel plans|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-2117241906 .ygrps-yiv-2117241906hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2117241906 .ygrps-yiv-2117241906hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I want to add bilge keels to my boat, so I only need the plans for the keels,Sorry if I did not express myself correctlyMartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:31:39 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   The plans include bilge keel and single keelSent from my iPhone On May 6, 2016, at 8:58 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                                I meant sell the plans for the twins keelTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 05:56:40 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   Brent,Ican you seel the plans forthe twins keel only?Thanks, Martin                                 		 	   		                                                             <!-- #ygrps-yiv-2117241906 .ygrps-yiv-2117241906ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2117241906ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-2117241906 .ygrps-yiv-2117241906ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2117241906ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-2117241906 .ygrps-yiv-2117241906ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2117241906ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2117241906ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-2117241906 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33510|33506|2016-05-06 11:51:13|J Fisher|Re: Bilge keel plans|The way Brent draws the plans both options are on the plans. You get both for the same $$. Sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2016, at 9:44 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                                I want to add bilge keels to my boat, so I only need the plans for the keels,Sorry if I did not express myself correctlyMartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:31:39 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   The plans include bilge keel and single keelSent from my iPhoneOn May 6, 2016, at 8:58 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                                I meant sell the plans for the twins keelTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 05:56:40 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   Brent,Ican you seel the plans forthe twins keel only?Thanks, Martin                                 		 	   		                                                              		 	   		                             |
33511|33506|2016-05-06 15:31:47|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keel plans|All  my plans come with drawings for either single or twin keels.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <mdemers2005@...> wrote :Brent,Ican you seel the plans forthe twins keel only?Thanks, Martin|
33512|33506|2016-05-06 15:33:45|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keel plans|No problem. Send me an email.How big is your boat?|
33513|33506|2016-05-06 20:52:30|mountain man|Re: Bilge keel plans|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> It is a 37 ft steel classic , similar to a Alberg 37MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:33:43 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans                                                   No problem. Send me an email.How big is your boat?                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-771573884 .ygrps-yiv-771573884ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-771573884ecxygrp-mkp 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33514|33506|2016-05-08 19:09:21|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keel plans|Then the keels for my 36 would work.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <mdemers2005@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1453161083 #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459 .ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1453161083 #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459 .ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}It is a 37 ft steel classic , similar to a Alberg 37MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:33:43 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Bilge keel plans  No problem. Send me an email.How big is your boat?#ygrps-yiv-1453161083 #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459 .ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1453161083 #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459 .ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1453161083 #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459 .ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1453161083 #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459 .ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1453161083ygrps-yiv-166402459ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1453161083 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33515|33515|2016-05-11 19:26:12|smallboatvoyaguer|Welding in Chine Doublers| Hey ya'll. I have my chine doublers cut and ready to install. I don't have any of the interior framing installed yet (lower longitudinal stringers, keel) and am wondering if welding in the doublers before the framing goes in will create distortion, or does it not matter what order the various interior items get welded in. Thanks, Marlin |
33516|33516|2016-05-11 23:09:44|smallboatvoyaguer|Mast Size for 31| Alright. I have been able to swing some deals on boat parts lately... and I have a new candidate for a mast... MAST: So I have a mast lined up already, it measure about 4.5" x 8" x 40'. But, it has various issues... mast head needs to be fabricated, spreaders need to be fabricated, has many bolts seized into it, etc. It has a bit of corrosion. It also has one of those pop riveted in place sail tracks that seem to cause a lot of problems. But, I have it, and it could work. It is a little oversized, but that's okay. It is off of a 1968 sail boat. So now, off of this C&C I have a potential new mast candidate. This mast is in really good shape. Fresh water only. It is too long, but I could cut it down. It has an extruded sleeve for the mainsail, plus solid gear all around, good spreaders, no corrosion, good mast head. But here is the thing... it is even more oversized than the other, measuring at 5" x 9" x 40' (once cut). The boat is a 1981, I think. Thoughts? Which should I use? The older, just oversized one that needs more work? Or the newer one that is a little bigger, and needs very little work? -Marlin|
33517|33516|2016-05-12 22:03:13|jpronk1|Re: Mast Size for 31|Go big or stay home ;-)JamesSent from my iPhone On May 11, 2016, at 7:50 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                               Alright. I have been able to swing some deals on boat parts lately... and I have a new candidate for a mast... MAST: So I have a mast lined up already, it measure about 4.5" x 8" x 40'. But, it has various issues... mast head needs to be fabricated, spreaders need to be fabricated, has many bolts seized into it, etc. It has a bit of corrosion. It also has one of those pop riveted in place sail tracks that seem to cause a lot of problems. But, I have it, and it could work. It is a little oversized, but that's okay. It is off of a 1968 sail boat. So now, off of this C&C I have a potential new mast candidate. This mast is in really good shape. Fresh water only. It is too long, but I could cut it down. It has an extruded sleeve for the mainsail, plus solid gear all around, good spreaders, no corrosion, good mast head. But here is the thing... it is even more oversized than the other, measuring at 5" x 9" x 40' (once cut). The boat is a 1981, I think. Thoughts? Which should I use? The older, just oversized one that needs more work? Or the newer one that is a little bigger, and needs very little work? -Marlin                          |
33518|33516|2016-05-12 23:59:36|Matt Malone|Re: Mast Size for 31|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-1475537149 .ygrps-yiv-1475537149EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    Marlin,  Find the pounds per foot figure for the two masts which is usually a published quantity and for the hull's original design.  Take the difference and consider how little gear one would have to add at the top of the mast to create the same amount of destabilizing  moment on the boat as the thicker, heavier mast.   Say there is 0.5 pounds per foot difference.  That is equivalent to about 20 pounds half way up the mast or slightly more than 10pounds at the top.  Remember windage aloft is as good as weight, better even  at destabilizing a boat.   If you run the numbers you will see the comparison.  Then consider moving a radar antenna from the top to a stern arch and you may find that has a larger influence on stability.   Remember, since the ballast is so much closer to  the CG 10 pounds at the top might require 200 pounds of lead at the bottom - mind that is not 200 pounds of lead poured on top of the existing lead in the keels that added ballast is even closer to the cg.  If you need 200 pounds more ballast, use keels that  are a few inches deeper that hold 200 extra pounds at the bottom.  Do not accept assurances, anecdotes or rumours of what other individual boats have done.  If you can run the numbers and convince yourself you have less moment aloft than a published option for your hull, at least from static stability you know you are inside  that design.    Windage is completely different.  This is one aspect where go big or go home is dicey advice.  Windage is more strongly influenced by crosssectional area by very low crosssection things like rigging.   Yes, smaller area is smaller windage forces, but it is  nowhere near linear.  This is because drag coefficient strongly increases with smaller size.  Shake a bottle of syrup or oil the smallest bubbles barely rise, the large ones settle out quickly.   There are far too many variables for any advice here to be well founded without at least pounds per foot, what else is getting mounted on the mast, the rigging details and your preparedness to increase your keels.  This assumes we all know your hull shape,  or at least which boat it most closely matches.     I understand you are putting twin keels on a boat originally designed for one.  Many people change one major thing and it works out for them.   Check the pounds per foot of your mast options to the recommended design for your boat.   If you stay within recommendations  on the mast, that is one less thing that you are changing all at once.   It is also easier for paid professionals to tell you if one major change will work out.  Matt   "jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:         Go big or stay home ;-) James  Sent from my iPhone   On May 11, 2016, at 7:50 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        Alright.  I have been able to swing some deals on boat parts lately... and I have a new candidate for a mast...   MAST: So I have a mast lined up already, it measure about 4.5" x 8" x 40'. But, it has various issues... mast head needs to be fabricated, spreaders need to be fabricated, has many bolts seized into it, etc. It has a bit of corrosion. It also has one of those  pop riveted in place sail tracks that seem to cause a lot of problems. But, I have it, and it could work. It is a little oversized, but that's okay. It is off of a 1968 sail boat.  So now, off of this C&C I have a potential new mast candidate. This mast is in really good shape. Fresh water only. It is too long, but I could cut it down. It has an extruded sleeve for the mainsail, plus solid gear all around, good spreaders, no corrosion,  good mast head. But here is the thing... it is even more oversized than the other, measuring at 5" x 9" x 40' (once cut). The boat is a 1981, I think.   Thoughts? Which should I use? The older, just oversized one that needs more work? 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33519|33516|2016-05-13 10:41:13|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Mast Size for 31| I'm not the guy who is trying to put twin keels on his "classic". I'm building a 31 foot swain mono keel.Brent doesn't list any sort of ideal mast weight in his plans. Perhaps Brent can chime in on this. 'The mast I was going to use has a cross section of 4.5" x 8" x 1/4" wall. The one I am considering using now is 5" x 9" x what appears to be 1/8" or 3"16 wall thickness.I've built my keel, but it is not installed on the boat yet. I could potentially not pull it as far "up" into the boat as the plans say, and lower the C.G. that way. Thoughts?Thanks for the replies.|
33520|33516|2016-05-13 10:43:11|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Mast Size for 31|I'm not planning on adding a radar to the mast or anything like that. Just the usual and mast steps. I was going to have a rack on the stern for my solar panels, etc, but I would consider losing that if need be.|
33521|33516|2016-05-13 11:33:29|Matt Malone|Re: Mast Size for 31|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Sorry Marlin, I got you confused with Martin on the tiny font on my  phone.   Martin, mountainman, is doing the keels on something that is not  a BS.   You are building a 31' BS.   Ok, just having a heavier mast and not changing anything else means the static restoring moment and ultimate stability of the boat are negatively impacted.   In controlled conditions, if one attaches a line to the top of the mast and pulls abeam, less force will heel the boat the same angle, or the same force will heel the boat a greater angle.   Go big or stay home has consequences.   Everything has consequences that is clearly why you asked.   Problem is, without mass/weight parameters in this case, no one can say.   You could measure each candidate mast section: - measure the perimeter of with a dressmaker's tape measure,  - take the average  thickness with a caliper,  - multiply perimeter times thickness to get square inches   - make  more careful measurements of thickened areas or features,  - add this into  the square inches,  - multiply by 12 to get cubic inches of material in a  foot,  - multiply by the density of the material which is probably aluminium.  This assumes you cannot accurately weigh your 40' section and just divide by 40 feet to get mass per foot for the section.  Then compare this to the weight per foot of the steel pipe sections Brent has talked about for this design.   These are listed on the engineeringtoolbox website if you google steel pipe section properties or something.   If the weight of what you have in mind is less per foot, but close, including all rigging hardware like strengthening plates etc (there might be more of that on an aluminium section) then you are within Brent's design and should expect the outcome Brent predicts, without modifying the keels.   Lowering the keels leaves less material sticking up in the boat to weld in strengthening webs and this has only structural downsides, maybe no big ones, but it has no structural upsides.   A lower keel for the same mast increases ultimate stability but it also makes the boat more stiff, makes it want to return to upright more forcefully, and this can lead to a rougher ride as compared to something that heels and holds its heel more uniformly.   It entirely depends on sea state, nothing can be said in general, other than, a deeper keel is not better by all measures, at all times, even before considering limiting access to shallow anchorages.    The combination of a heavier mast and a deeper keel to compensate to keep the same static restoring moment (the boat experiences the same heel in the same steady force conditions) both increase the rolling speed moment of inertia of the boat.  This can make for smoother boat behaviour in variable winds and choppy conditions -- the boat averages more smoothly because it has more inertia against changing roll angle quickly -- this is the up-side.  In a sudden forceful gust, the boat reacts less at first, even when it may be more advantageous to heel easily to let the gust spill off the top of the sail.   Once a boat with a heavier rolling speed moment of inertia is imparted with substantial rolling speed, for the same hull shape, the same buoyant restoring moment, the boat will heel further.  This means in a sudden gust approaching knock-down situation the boat with more rolling inertia can go further, so, this is the down-side.  Certainly if one knows their boat, one can set the sails differently to take advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of the particular boat in particular conditions so, there is no trap really provided one does not compromise static restoring moment, just Brent's experience can't help you as much if you go further from his experience.  All these things say, stick as close as possible to what Brent recommends to expect the behaviour Brent reports.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 13 May 2016 07:41:13 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast Size for 31                                                    I'm not the guy who is trying to put twin keels on his "classic". I'm building a 31 foot swain mono keel.Brent doesn't list any sort of ideal mast weight in his plans. Perhaps Brent can chime in on this. 'The mast I was going to use has a cross section of 4.5" x 8" x 1/4" wall. The one I am considering using now is 5" x 9" x what appears to be 1/8" or 3"16 wall thickness.I've built my keel, but it is not installed on the boat yet. I could potentially not pull it as far "up" into the boat as the plans say, and lower the C.G. that way. Thoughts?Thanks for the replies.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1590963417 .ygrps-yiv-1590963417ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1590963417ecxygrp-mkp 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33522|33515|2016-05-13 18:57:23|brentswain38|Re: Welding in Chine Doublers|It only takes a few minutes to  install the longitudinals either  side of the chine. After that, there should be no distortion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Hey ya'll. I have my chine doublers cut and ready to install. I don't have any of the interior framing installed yet (lower longitudinal stringers, keel) and am wondering if welding in the doublers before the framing goes in will create distortion, or does it not matter what order the various interior items get welded in. Thanks, Marlin |
33523|33516|2016-05-13 19:05:06|brentswain38|Re: Mast Size for 31|4.5 lbs per ft works well on the 40 ft mast on my 31 twin keelerAnything  near that should work well for you.Bob Perry mentioned designing a super light carbon fibre mast for a client, at great expense.After he circumnavigated Vancouver Island with it, Perry asked him how much difference his super expensive, high tech mast made." Barely noticeable " was the answer. 40 feet was perfect for my 31,  when I first began sailing her.Now ,after 32 years of living aboard and accumulating,  she has gone down a long way in the water , and 45 would be nice. I believe you have far better sailing winds where you are, than here in windless BC|
33524|33516|2016-05-13 19:20:40|opuspaul|Re: Mast Size for 31|The people who use a carbon fibre mast on a long term voyaging/cruising boat have more money than sense.    The only place I would consider using carbon fibre or composite is on an unstayed mast.  If you really want to save a lot of weight aloft without spending much money, make your own bronze deadeyes and then use Dynex (Dyneema) rope for your stays.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :4.5 lbs per ft works well on the 40 ft mast on my 31 twin keelerAnything  near that should work well for you.Bob Perry mentioned designing a super light carbon fibre mast for a client, at great expense.After he circumnavigated Vancouver Island with it, Perry asked him how much difference his super expensive, high tech mast made." Barely noticeable " was the answer. 40 feet was perfect for my 31,  when I first began sailing her.Now ,after 32 years of living aboard and accumulating,  she has gone down a long way in the water , and 45 would be nice. I believe you have far better sailing winds where you are, than here in windless BC|
33525|33516|2016-05-13 19:29:27|Matt Malone|Re: Mast Size for 31|      <!--#ygrps-yiv-142760711 .ygrps-yiv-142760711EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}-->    I sure have been looking at dyneema and other wire rope replacements.   I like it aloft but near deck level I worry about it being cut in the ordinary course of moving things around on deck.  The figure I have heard is a 6 times weight  saving.   That puts a lot of mass into the discretionary budget for things like nice mast steps or something.  Matt   "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        The people who use a carbon fibre mast on a long term voyaging/cruising boat have more money than sense.    The only place I would consider using carbon fibre or composite is on an unstayed mast.    If you really want to save a lot of weight aloft without spending much money, make your own bronze deadeyes and then use Dynex (Dyneema) rope for your stays.  Paul    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :  4.5 lbs per ft works well on the 40 ft mast on my 31 twin keeler Anything  near that should work well for you. Bob Perry mentioned designing a super light carbon fibre mast for a client, at great expense.After he circumnavigated Vancouver Island with it, Perry asked him how much difference his super expensive, high tech mast made." Barely noticeable " was the answer.  40 feet was perfect for my 31,  when I first began sailing her.Now ,after 32 years of living aboard and accumulating,  she has gone down a long way in the water , and 45 would be nice. I believe you have far better sailing winds where you are, than here in  windless BC      <!-- #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ad  	{margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ad  	{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-142760711x_ygrp-lc 	{font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-142760711 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33526|22|2016-05-13 20:55:26|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats|Hello,   This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group.     File        : /Bronze Dynex Dux Eye.JPG   Uploaded by : opuspaul <opusnz@...>   Description : Bronze Dead Eye used with Dynex Dux (Dyneema).      You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Bronze%20Dynex%20Dux%20Eye.JPG   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398   Regards,   opuspaul <opusnz@...>|
33527|22|2016-05-13 20:57:32|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats|Hello,   This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group.     File        : /Paul Wilson's File/Bronze Dynex Dux Eye.JPG   Uploaded by : opuspaul <opusnz@...>   Description : Bronze Deadeye use with Dynex Dux (Dyneema) synthetic rigging.   You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Paul%20Wilson%27s%20File/Bronze%20Dynex%20Dux%20Eye.JPG   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398   Regards,   opuspaul <opusnz@...>|
33528|33516|2016-05-13 21:38:34|opuspaul|Re: Mast Size for 31|I just lost my very long message....bloody yahoo.  It makes me so mad I want to spit.Anyway, to summarize....if you are worried about chafe with synthetic rigging, there is nothing stopping you from mixing up wire with dynex on your boat.   I have wire forestays and uppers with Dynex backstays and lowers.  I put black poly irrigation tubing where the lowers may get chafed from the staysail sheets.  Backstays are a no brainer for Dynex.   If I remember right, the weight savings probably added up to about 30 or 40 pounds on my 36.   If I had done the uppers, it would have been a lot more.I would not use the alloy eyes available.  They are very expensive and despite what they say, I don't think they will handle the salt.  They may be OK on a racing boat that is in a marina every night but my guess is that in ten years, they will end up a corroded mess on any long term voyaging boat that is constantly exposed to salt water.  I would go to a friendly foundry with a pattern and make your own.   I just cleaned up some galv thimbles and had them made up in bronze.   It took me about half hour to file and polish each of them myself and only cost a few dollars per thimble.  I just posted a photo under Paul Wilson's file folder.  The Brummel splicing is quick and easy.   Doing it this way, I found that it was cheaper than buying SS wire and fittings.   I probably didn't need to do it but I put heat shrink over the dynex for UV  protection.  I can't prove anything but I expect it to last many more years than SS wire or poor  quality galvanized wire and be virtually maintenance free.I have had the dynex on my boat now for about 3 years.   In my experience, it stretches less than wire.    It is incredibly strong and has none of the fatigue or corrosion problems of wire.   I have only done one offshore trip but I would trust it more than SS rigging, knowing what I know now. Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1451776907 #ygrps-yiv-1451776907ygrps-yiv-874685048 .ygrps-yiv-1451776907ygrps-yiv-874685048EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}I sure have been looking at dyneema and other wire rope replacements.   I like it aloft but near deck level I worry about it being cut in the ordinary course of moving things around on deck.  The figure I have heard is a 6 times weight saving.   That puts a lot of mass into the discretionary budget for things like nice mast steps or something.  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33529|33516|2016-05-13 21:38:37|opuspaul|Re: Mast Size for 31|I just lost my very long message....bloody yahoo.  It makes me so mad I want to spit.Anyway, to summarize....if you are worried about chafe with synthetic rigging, there is nothing stopping you from mixing up wire with dynex on your boat.   I have wire forestays and uppers with Dynex backstays and lowers.  I put black poly irrigation tubing where the lowers may get chafed from the staysail sheets.  Backstays are a no brainer for Dynex.   If I remember right, the weight savings probably added up to about 30 or 40 pounds on my 36.   If I had done the uppers, it would have been a lot more.I would not use the alloy eyes available.  They are very expensive and despite what they say, I don't think they will handle the salt.  They may be OK on a racing boat that is in a marina every night but my guess is that in ten years, they will end up a corroded mess on any long term voyaging boat that is constantly exposed to salt water.  I would go to a friendly foundry with a pattern and make your own.   I just cleaned up some galv thimbles and had them made up in bronze.   It took me about half hour to file and polish each of them myself and only cost a few dollars per thimble.  I just posted a photo under Paul Wilson's file folder.  The Brummel splicing is quick and easy.   Doing it this way, I found that it was cheaper than buying SS wire and fittings. I probably didn't need to do it but I put heat shrink over the dynex for UV protection.  I can't prove anything but I expect it to last many more years than SS wire or poor quality galvanized wire and be virtually maintenance free.I have had the dynex on my boat now for about 3 years.   In my experience, it stretches less than wire.    It is incredibly strong and has none of the fatigue or corrosion problems of wire.   I have only done one offshore trip but I would trust it more than SS rigging, knowing what I know now.Cheers, Pauls won't protect you from stray currents or ground problems on other boats.  Make sure you use an isolation transformer or galvanic isolator.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 .ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}I sure have been looking at dyneema and other wire rope replacements.   I like it aloft but near deck level I worry about it being cut in the ordinary course of moving things around on deck.  The figure I have heard is a 6 times weight saving.   That puts a lot of mass into the discretionary budget for things like nice mast steps or something.  Matt #ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ygrp-mkp  	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026x_ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1185095511 #ygrps-yiv-1185095511ygrps-yiv-978164026 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33530|33516|2016-05-13 22:07:19|Matt Malone|Re: Mast Size for 31|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> My vague idea was dyneema uppers and a 10 foot leader of wire rope on the bottom but your idea of all dyneema and tubes to act as chafe guards is better I think.This would give Marlin a lot more weight budget to spent on a mast that might be a bit heavy otherwise.    MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:38:33 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast Size for 31                                                   I just lost my very long message....bloody yahoo.  It makes me so mad I want to spit.Anyway, to summarize....if you are worried about chafe with synthetic rigging, there is nothing stopping you from mixing up wire with dynex on your boat.   I have wire forestays and uppers with Dynex backstays and lowers.  I put black poly irrigation tubing where the lowers may get chafed from the staysail sheets.  Backstays are a no brainer for Dynex.   If I remember right, the weight savings probably added up to about 30 or 40 pounds on my 36.   If I had done the uppers, it would have been a lot more.I would not use the alloy eyes available.  They are very expensive and despite what they say, I don't think they will handle the salt.  They may be OK on a racing boat that is in a marina every night but my guess is that in ten years, they will end up a corroded mess on any long term voyaging boat that is constantly exposed to salt water.  I would go to a friendly foundry with a pattern and make your own.   I just cleaned up some galv thimbles and had them made up in bronze.   It took me about half hour to file and polish each of them myself and only cost a few dollars per thimble.  I just posted a photo under Paul Wilson's file folder.  The Brummel splicing is quick and easy.   Doing it this way, I found that it was cheaper than buying SS wire and fittings.   I probably didn't need to do it but I put heat shrink over the dynex for UV  protection.  I can't prove anything but I expect it to last many more years than SS wire or poor  quality galvanized wire and be virtually maintenance free.I have had the dynex on my boat now for about 3 years.   In my experience, it stretches less than wire.    It is incredibly strong and has none of the fatigue or corrosion problems of wire.   I have only done one offshore trip but I would trust it more than SS rigging, knowing what I know now. Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :I sure have been looking at dyneema and other wire rope replacements.   I like it aloft but near deck level I worry about it being cut in the ordinary course of moving things around on deck.  The figure I have heard is a 6 times weight saving.   That puts a lot of mass into the discretionary budget for things like nice mast steps or something.  Matt                                  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1161733589 .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1161733589ecxad 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33531|33516|2016-05-14 00:38:01|opuspaul|Re: Mast Size for 31|The fewer end terminals the better.  You would be adding two more end terminals with their associated cost and chance of failure on each wire.  The dynex/dyneema rope is actually quite tough and hard to cut.   They use if for trawl lines on fishing boats and for logging where it gets a lot of abuse.   Chafe also depends on how you sail your boat and how vigilant you are on lines rubbing.   Having to replace lines and patch sails costs a lot of much money.  It is when you are flapping around in light air that you get most of your chafe.   I have put vinyl hoses over my genoa sheets where they rub on the stays.   I guess anything is possible but I can't see them cutting into the dyneema.    Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-44049498 #ygrps-yiv-44049498ygrps-yiv-1902396513 .ygrps-yiv-44049498ygrps-yiv-1902396513hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-44049498 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33532|33516|2016-05-14 10:05:13|gerard.laverty|Re: Mast Size for 31|This fellow had a similar idea. He put quite a few miles on without much trouble. http://www.zartmancruising.com/building-a-kitboat/a-modern-gaff-rig/  Gerard|
33533|22|2016-05-14 13:21:08|Matt Malone|Metal or Plastic Deadeyes|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Paul very helpfully uploaded a file showing bronze deadeyes.  Unfortunately when I click on it, I get nothing, and accessing the Yahoo archive of everything for origami boats, I cannot find them.  This probably has more to do with me never accessing the archive and not knowing where to look.   My question is, why use any sort of metallic deadeye?   If the deadeye is a thimble to the standing rigging -- the eye splice at the end of the standing rigging wraps around the deadeye -- there does not seem to be an issue of strength in using an industrial plastic deadeye.   Some metal deadeyes are tangs with one large hole at one end and several small holes at the other.  A shackle on the standing rigging attaches to the large hole on one end -- these are not fail-safe -- if something breaks, the system parts.  Deadeyes captured in eye splices, like traditional wood deadeyes, if the deadeye fails, the tensioning lashing is still looped through the standing rigging's eye splice, the system will not part immediately.  If one were inclined to make their own deadeyes, it would seem to be as simple as some 1" to 2" strong, durable industrial plastic, a circular saw, jigsaw, router and drill.  If one is going with synthetic standing rigging (Dyna Dux, Dyneema, Spectra), why have any metal at this point?   A plastic deadeye will never corrode or rot.  The plastic's compressive strength is being used on a billet of material -- 6 tons/sqin for nylon, 8 tons/sqin for Delrin.  There is no question if properly designed, when the system is over-stressed, a high tensile line like Dyneema will cut into the plastic of the dead eye showing visible indications of overstress before reaching the breaking point of the system.    Other lines like jib sheets rubbing on plastic deadeyes would be less likely to chafe on a smooth plastic.  Metal:http://www.uqtr.ca/~precourt/deadeyes/DSCN0125.jpegMattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 13 May 2016 17:57:31 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] New file uploaded to origamiboats                                                    Hello,  This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group.  File        : /Paul Wilson's File/Bronze Dynex Dux Eye.JPG   Uploaded by : opuspaul <opusnz@...>   Description : Bronze Deadeye use with Dynex Dux (Dyneema) synthetic rigging.  You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/files/Paul%20Wilson%27s%20File/Bronze%20Dynex%20Dux%20Eye.JPG  To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398  Regards,  opuspaul <opusnz@...>                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-576519924ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-576519924ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-576519924ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-576519924ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-576519924ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-576519924ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-576519924 .ygrps-yiv-576519924ExternalClass 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33534|33534|2016-05-14 14:07:23|smallboatvoyaguer|Sandblasting media| Alright, I know there is like a hundred threads on sandblasting... but... Can anybody just tell me what media will work and is cheap? I am blasting non-primed, with the mill scale rusting off. I've been told I can collect beach sand, being on freshwater and all, but there seems to be added rigmarole drying and sifting the sand out before use, so I am thinking I should just buy some media.   Thoughts? I have also been considering just bringing the entire boat to the sand blaster and having them do it, and priming immediately afterwards. |
33535|22|2016-05-14 17:11:35|opuspaul|Re: Metal or Plastic Deadeyes|The links will often not post correctly.    The photo I posted can be found under the File Tab inside the Paul Wilson's File folder when you go to the group page.My idea was to use a single pin with my existing turnbuckles.  Standard 5/16 or 8mm  wire has a ball park strength of  about 12,000 pounds.    Put that much pull onto a 1/2 inch round pin and you have one hell of a force.    I think if you had a 1/2 inch or 5/8 inch pin into a piece of high density plastic, the plastic would either crush or the hole would eventually elongate.   Plastic might be OK in place of old style wooden deadeyes which use multi strands of rope in place of turnbuckles.   I have thought the lanyards must be a real pain to adjust.   With a modern and narrow rig, having fine adjustment to tune your rigging is an advantage.You might find that the plastic deadeyes may be more expensive and more hassle to make than bronze deadeyes from a  friendly foundry.  I can't remember what I paid but I think it was about $15 USD each.  You may get wildly different quotes.   My local foundry here in NZ makes bronze and brass plumbing fittings.   The foreman was happy to do something different.   I just gave them 6 standard solid steel thimbles which I had cleaned up a bit and they waited until they did a run of bronze and pushed them through twice to make enough for my lowers and backstays.    It is important to tell them that you will finish them and that all you want is the rough castings.  They often don't want the hassle of sanding and polishing.  I just used sanding discs on a grinder and a round file on the edges where the rope lays.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1070095763 #ygrps-yiv-1070095763ygrps-yiv-2051249143 .ygrps-yiv-1070095763ygrps-yiv-2051249143hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1070095763 #ygrps-yiv-1070095763ygrps-yiv-2051249143 .ygrps-yiv-1070095763ygrps-yiv-2051249143hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Paul very helpfully uploaded a file showing bronze deadeyes.  Unfortunately when I click on it, I get nothing, and accessing the Yahoo archive of everything for origami boats, I cannot find them.  This probably has more to do with me never accessing the archive and not knowing where to look.   My question is, why use any sort of metallic deadeye?   If the deadeye is a thimble to the standing rigging -- the eye splice at the end of the standing rigging wraps around the deadeye -- there does not seem to be an issue of strength in using an industrial plastic deadeye.   Some metal deadeyes are tangs with one large hole at one end and several small holes at the other.  A shackle on the standing rigging attaches to the large hole on one end -- these are not fail-safe -- if something breaks, the system parts.  Deadeyes captured in eye splices, like traditional wood deadeyes, if the deadeye fails, the tensioning lashing is still looped through the standing rigging's eye splice, the system will not part immediately.  If one were inclined to make their own deadeyes, it would seem to be as simple as some 1" to 2" strong, durable industrial plastic, a circular saw, jigsaw, router and drill.  If one is going with synthetic standing rigging (Dyna Dux, Dyneema, Spectra), why have any metal at this point?   A plastic deadeye will never corrode or rot.  The plastic's compressive strength is being used on a billet of material -- 6 tons/sqin for nylon, 8 tons/sqin for Delrin.  There is no question if properly designed, when the system is over-stressed, a high tensile line like Dyneema will cut into the plastic of the dead eye showing visible indications of overstress before reaching the breaking point of the system.    Other lines like jib sheets rubbing on plastic deadeyes would be less likely to chafe on a smooth plastic.  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33536|33516|2016-05-14 17:43:24|opuspaul|Re: Mast Size for 31|Good article.  I really like his mast hoops.  I think he could have done it much cheaper.    He spent more on the Colligo deadeyes than I spent for my whole job.   As I said before,  I am very skeptical that the alloy deadeyes will last long term in the tropics.   I think despite best efforts with rinsing and lubing,  the rope will hold the salt.  Once any pit is started in the deadeye, it will accelerate and then the alloy will end up corroded and pitted badly.  I give them ten years.    Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gerard.laverty@...> wrote :This fellow had a similar idea. He put quite a few miles on without much trouble. http://www.zartmancruising.com/building-a-kitboat/a-modern-gaff-rig/  Gerard|
33537|33534|2016-05-14 18:01:22|opuspaul|Re: Sandblasting media|The first time I blasted my boat, I used copper slag.   I can't remember where I read it (it could have been BS) but there were some theories about the copper residue causing problems.  The last time I blasted, I used garnet.   If I was doing it again I would use same.  If you really want a good job, I wouldn't use beach sand.  It won't cut nearly as well since the grains are normally not as sharp or as clean.  You will need a lot more and it will also leave a different blast profile.  Having said that, beach sand would be far superior to cleaning with a wire brush.   You really need to match the size of media to the blast nozzle and pressure to get the right profile for the paint system.Cost varies a lot depending on your area and media available.  Sometimes permits and resource consents can be a hassle.   In my area, you must enclose everything so that there is no dust.   Renting sand blasters is impossible.   What do your local sandblasters use for media?  They may have some insight.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Alright, I know there is like a hundred threads on sandblasting... but... Can anybody just tell me what media will work and is cheap? I am blasting non-primed, with the mill scale rusting off. I've been told I can collect beach sand, being on freshwater and all, but there seems to be added rigmarole drying and sifting the sand out before use, so I am thinking I should just buy some media.   Thoughts? I have also been considering just bringing the entire boat to the sand blaster and having them do it, and priming immediately afterwards. |
33538|22|2016-05-14 18:50:42|Matt Malone|Re: Metal or Plastic Deadeyes|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1088138880 .ygrps-yiv-1088138880hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1088138880 .ygrps-yiv-1088138880hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Paul, I see now, yours is to work with a turnbuckle.   Yes, plastic would be taking a lot of load in that case.  A 2" thick piece of Delrin should take 16,000 pounds on a 1/2" pin but that is a lot of force on a 1/2" pin.  A 1/2" grade 8 bolt is only good for about 17,500lbs of single shear.  (look at the picture)http://www.engineersedge.com/material_science/bolt_single_shear_calcs.htmIn a favourable geometry that guarantees balanced loading in a three-plate sandwich, double-shear loading (the usual geometry for sailboat hardware), that can double.  (again the picture)  http://www.engineersedge.com/material_science/bolt_double_shear_calcs.htmBut that is only a factor of safety of 2 on a pin.   Problem is, if there is any bending of the three-plate sandwich, then the shear strength of the upper part of the pin is being used against the shear strength of the lower part of the pin, and instead of doubling, the maximum load can go down with a three-plate sandwich.  This geometry of pin use is all over sailboats -- something to keep in mind. Commercial crane trucks that lift huge loads, the sheaves at the end of their boom, believe it or not, there are some trucks where the sheaves are plastic, carrying steel cable, in an industrial overhead lifting capacity.   Point is, designed properly, used properly, good industrial plastics can do the job.   Lets try a traditional deadeye with lanyards instead of turnbuckles and pins.  Making a lanyard-type deadeye of delrin with 4 holes of 1/4", one needs only 1" thick Delrin to hold 16,000 pounds, and only 2,000 pound load on the lanyard.  1/4" Dyneema is good for 9,500 lbs.  That is a factor of safety of over 4.   I would use thicker Delrin to guarantee deep grooves for the stay rope to sit in to guarantee stability of the assembly -- there is more to think about than raw strength.   How does one come up with stay loads?   I think one should keep in mind where the loads come from -- the compression expected in the mast when the boat is experiencing maximum loading.  The sum of the shroud strengths on each side need not exceed the compression buckling strength of the mast.   For a mast of known properties, Euler buckling can be used to calculate the buckling strength.  Make sure to use the proper boundary conditions.  For a deck-stepped mast of uniform section, the maximum compression load is in the section between the lower shrouds and the deck (not the full height of the mast) and the boundary conditions are pinned-pinned, free to rotate at both ends.   For keel stepped, and a tight deck hole, it is deck to lower shrouds, clamped, pinned boundary conditions.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BucklingThat was for people like Marlin who have masts and are thinking about which they might use or how many spreaders and shrouds to use.   So how strong should a mast be?  The Nordic Method of mast design (I cannot find my reference just now), which is considered a conservative standard, from my memory says a single mast should have a compressive strength of 1.5 times the displacement of the boat.  This is a rule of thumb.   It does not calculate expected sail loads or righting moment at any particular heel angle.  This compression load is created by the stays on the windward side of the boat when the boat is under sail loading...  When there is no sail loading, and the boat is not heeled, there is insignificant standing tension in the shrouds. For my boat, a 41' of 10 tons the Nordic Method suggests a mast compressive strength of 15 tons.   I have two lower stays and one upper stay.  There is a rule of thumb to divide the 15 tons among stays, but I recall for my boat is was something like 5 tons each, maximum, 10,000 lbs on a 10 ton boat with two lower stays.  Some boats will have only one lower stay on each side so that makes the hardware different between upper and lower stays.  Point is, 12,000lb on a smaller boat Paul might be overkill.   I have no problem with overkill, if it is not over-costing, or keeping you on the shore over-preparing.1/2" Dyneema is good for 34,000 pounds of tension.  That does not mean you should expect 34,000 pounds of tension in a shroud, maybe one might picked it for factor of safety and longevity, but the actual design load is 10,000 pounds.   Your brass deadeyes look beautiful Paul.  I would not change them even if I calculated they were overkill.   The point is just that plastic (and hardwood) will work if properly designed.  Further, other things, like the pin, might be more troublesome, depending on the design.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 14 May 2016 14:11:34 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal or Plastic Deadeyes                                                   The links will often not post correctly.    The photo I posted can be found under the File Tab inside the Paul Wilson's File folder when you go to the group page.My idea was to use a single pin with my existing turnbuckles.  Standard 5/16 or 8mm  wire has a ball park strength of  about 12,000 pounds.    Put that much pull onto a 1/2 inch round pin and you have one hell of a force.    I think if you had a 1/2 inch or 5/8 inch pin into a piece of high density plastic, the plastic would either crush or the hole would eventually elongate.   Plastic might be OK in place of old style wooden deadeyes which use multi strands of rope in place of turnbuckles.   I have thought the lanyards must be a real pain to adjust.   With a modern and narrow rig, having fine adjustment to tune your rigging is an advantage.You might find that the plastic deadeyes may be more expensive and more hassle to make than bronze deadeyes from a  friendly foundry.  I can't remember what I paid but I think it was about $15 USD each.  You may get wildly different quotes.   My local foundry here in NZ makes bronze and brass plumbing fittings.   The foreman was happy to do something different.   I just gave them 6 standard solid steel thimbles which I had cleaned up a bit and they waited until they did a run of bronze and pushed them through twice to make enough for my lowers and backstays.    It is important to tell them that you will finish them and that all you want is the rough castings.  They often don't want the hassle of sanding and polishing.  I just used sanding discs on a grinder and a round file on the edges where the rope lays.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :Paul very helpfully uploaded a file showing bronze deadeyes.  Unfortunately when I click on it, I get nothing, and accessing the Yahoo archive of everything for origami boats, I cannot find them.  This probably has more to do with me never accessing the archive and not knowing where to look.   My question is, why use any sort of metallic deadeye?   If the deadeye is a thimble to the standing rigging -- the eye splice at the end of the standing rigging wraps around the deadeye -- there does not seem to be an issue of strength in using an industrial plastic deadeye.   Some metal deadeyes are tangs with one large hole at one end and several small holes at the other.  A shackle on the standing rigging attaches to the large hole on one end -- these are not fail-safe -- if something breaks, the system parts.  Deadeyes captured in eye splices, like traditional wood deadeyes, if the deadeye fails, the tensioning lashing is still looped through the standing rigging's eye splice, the system will not part immediately.  If one were inclined to make their own deadeyes, it would seem to be as simple as some 1" to 2" strong, durable industrial plastic, a circular saw, jigsaw, router and drill.  If one is going with synthetic standing rigging (Dyna Dux, Dyneema, Spectra), why have any metal at this point?   A plastic deadeye will never corrode or rot.  The plastic's compressive strength is being used on a billet of material -- 6 tons/sqin for nylon, 8 tons/sqin for Delrin.  There is no question if properly designed, when the system is over-stressed, a high tensile line like Dyneema will cut into the plastic of the dead eye showing visible indications of overstress before reaching the breaking point of the system.    Other lines like jib sheets rubbing on plastic deadeyes would be less likely to chafe on a smooth plastic.  Metal:http://www.uqtr.ca/~precourt/deadeyes/DSCN0125.jpegMatt                                <!-- 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33539|22|2016-05-14 20:52:15|opuspaul|Re: Metal or Plastic Deadeyes|I have the 36 footer.   I haven't looked at the smaller sizes.    The normal stay on the 36 footer would be 5/16 inch (8mm) wire with a breaking strain of about 12,500 pounds for 304 SS steel or galv wire.   316 SS would be slightly less.    That is overkill but good for a long term voyaging boat.  Let's assume you should have 10,000 pounds or better for the 36 footer.I am using 9 mm Dynex Dux to replace the wire which has a strength of 10.9 tons or about 22,000 pounds.   Vast overkill.  That is probably why they say you could cut through it half way and it will still hold your rig up.  That is also why I think with some UV protection, my Dynex stays should last many, many years.A good rule of thumb is that the hardware should be around double the strength of the rigging.    My turnbuckles are good quality bronze/SS with 5/8 inch pins.   There are turnbuckles with adequate strength that are 1/2 inch pin but I feel more comfortable with the larger pins.   I have some old turnbuckles that were made by Navtec.   They are very strong.   I replaced two with some Hayn 58TFBJ which aren't quite as good but they have a rating of 17,500 pounds. I have sailed offshore with the galv turnbuckles on several boats.   Some of them are good but some of them are absolute junk with very poor quality sloppy threads.   The best ones are not nearly as strong a rating as a good quality SS turnbuckles.  Unlike SS which can get tiny cracks, you can usually see when they have a problem and they are forgiving.   I would look at their ratings before buying.  I know of one guy who went to 3/4 galv on his 36 footer.  A good name Crosby 3/4 inch turnbuckle has a working load of 5200 pounds and sits almost 3 feet high.   They are huge and heavy.   It really depends on what you can afford.Mast size is another whole subject.   In NZ, they seem to go to much smaller mast sections than most people in North America would be comfortable with.   I am generalizing but they seem to also like fractional rigs with tapered sections and multi spreaders.  It is not my preference but they seem to get away with it and do lots of miles.Paul|
33540|33516|2016-05-15 17:55:23|brentswain38|Re: Mast Size for 31|Poured sockets are easy to weld up your self ,out of stainless or mild steel, and have them galvanized and heavily epoxied. I built all mine for pennies , in about an hour. The cone can easily be made by cutting a pie shaped V out of the side of a piece of pipe, hammering it into the cone shape, and  welding it back up,then welding the loop on it. My book shows one.|
33541|33534|2016-05-15 17:59:28|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting media|Beach sand is as good as anything.Drying and sifting is not that big a job. Dusty for inside; black slag gives you better visibility, but for outside, beach sand is fine.|
33542|33534|2016-05-15 18:08:40|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting media|Wheelabrading with round steel shot gives a much  poorer profile than any beach sand, and it has given me  no problem in 32 years. Once the zinc primer is on and sticking well, there is no profile on top of it, and the profile  under it becomes irrelevant. I have never heard of zinc primer not sticking on wheelabraded steel, regardless of the poor profile round shot gives one.I remember blasting  a boat with #16 sand , slow as a bureaucrats brain. When we ran out of that ,we went for #20-30 which was much faster,  and gave no problem in the next 36 years.|
33543|33543|2016-05-19 15:47:24|smallboatvoyaguer|Priming Welds| What are peoples method for priming a weld when working with primed plate? |
33544|33534|2016-05-19 20:19:16|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sandblasting media| I've got everything in order for blasting. We are going to use glass and do it in the boatyard. I'm planning to build temporary skirt around the blasting site. I've left the back of the pilothouse off, and am cutting out the keel slot, the portholes, hatches, holes for the mooring bits, exhaust, bilge pump, for added ventilation. I've left out all the interior framing, except for deck beams, skeg webs, and the "upper" longitudinal stringers, to ease the blasting process. The steel that makes up the interior framing, engine beds, etc, will be blasted and primed out side and then used. The keel and rudder are not on the boat yet. The skeg, aperture , stern tube have been installed.  My life-rails have also been installed. I have galvanized decks, deck beams, and cabin sides, and I am hoping to clean and prime them before blasting, but haven't decided if it would be easier to lightly blast them, or clean them with vinegar/tsp, before priming.|
33545|33516|2016-05-21 17:34:02|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Mast Size for 31| Mast weight calculations off of the metal weight calculator: http://www.onlinemetals.com/calculator.cfm Brent mentions in his book a 5.5" x 1/8" wall mast of steel. This mast at 40' is 286 pounds for a 40' mast, or 7 pounds per foot.My older aluminum option is 19.25" circumference with a 3/16" wall thickness. That's 169 pounds for a 40' mast, or 4.2 pounds per footThe newer aluminum option is 22.5" circumference with a 5/32" wall thickness. That's 165.4 pounds for a 40' mast, or 4.13 pounds per foot.Brent you mentioned earlier a 4.5 pound per foot calc is within specs. Am I calculating this wrong or misunderstanding something?   Thoughts?|
33546|33516|2016-05-21 17:37:19|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Mast Size for 31| I can cut the newer mast to any length up to fifty feet. We can have some really finicky weather here on the lake, and I would like to use as tall a rig as makes sense, I'm thinking between 40' - 45'. The only thing I plan to add to the mast is mast steps.|
33547|33543|2016-05-21 19:49:01|brentswain38|Re: Priming Welds|We wash the  welding smoke from around the weld with TSP ,then vinegar ,to remove the welding smoke. Then rinse with water and let it dry. Then it is ready for painting|
33548|33534|2016-05-21 19:53:56|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting media|Don't blast the galvanized . That would be a big mistake. TSP and vinegar is all they need.There is no need for interior framing. Just bolt the bulkheads to the tabs, and support your interior off them with longitudinal 2x3's.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : I've got everything in order for blasting. We are going to use glass and do it in the boatyard. I'm planning to build temporary skirt around the blasting site. I've left the back of the pilothouse off, and am cutting out the keel slot, the portholes, hatches, holes for the mooring bits, exhaust, bilge pump, for added ventilation. I've left out all the interior framing, except for deck beams, skeg webs, and the "upper" longitudinal stringers, to ease the blasting process. The steel that makes up the interior framing, engine beds, etc, will be blasted and primed out side and then used. The keel and rudder are not on the boat yet. The skeg, aperture , stern tube have been installed.  My life-rails have also been installed. I have galvanized decks, deck beams, and cabin sides, and I am hoping to clean and prime them before blasting, but haven't decided if it would be easier to lightly blast them, or clean them with vinegar/tsp, before priming.|
33549|33516|2016-05-26 18:00:18|brentswain38|Re: Mast Size for 31|7 pounds a foot is a bit too heavy. Go for the under 5 lbs a foot one.If you go 45 ft ,you will reef a lot sooner, but will have the extra sailarea in light winds.|
33550|33516|2016-05-26 18:39:31|Stephen Wandling|Re: Mast Size for 31|As an engineless sailor on the British Columbia coast for years, I always wished for more sail area and never for less.   On May 26, 2016 3:00 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                7 pounds a foot is a bit too heavy. Go for the under 5 lbs a foot one.If you go 45 ft ,you will reef a lot sooner, but will have the extra sailarea in light winds.                                         |
33551|33551|2016-05-27 14:55:18|aguysailing|prop shaft|Just wondering if there is a tool for testing if prop shaft running true... no wobbles even minutely...PS... Brent, where are ya these days... I have been to end of Toba and back and now at Harry Yacht... heading north tomorrow or next day...   Toba has a 2 story floating logging outfit barracks.. looks like another valley to be clear cut.  I turned around and returned to Quadra.|
33552|33551|2016-05-27 15:30:26|Matt Malone|Re: prop shaft|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Yes, it is called a dial indicator with a roller tip set on a magnetic base.  The following links are meant only to convey images.  I have purchased all my tools at a machine-shop supply place.http://www.amazon.com/Roller-Contact-Point-Dial-Indicators/dp/B007IBTDHUhttp://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-7169-0-1-Inch-Dial-Indicator/dp/B000NPPBVK/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1464376758&sr=1-3&keywords=dial+indicatorhttp://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G9849-Magnetic-Indicator-Combo/dp/B0000DD0VA/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1464376758&sr=1-2&keywords=dial+indicatorClamp the base to the hull nearby, set the arms so the dial indicator tip is running on the shaft.   Roll over the shaft by hand and watch the needle move.   You may want to run the engine at very low RPM in case there is play in something that only shows up when the engine is running.   Check the shaft at various points down its length because the answers can be different if the shaft is skipping-rope-shaped or twizzler-shaped.  Any machinist is very likely to have such tools at hand.  Everyone needs to be reminded of safety from time to time.  Be very careful to not get entangled in the rotating shaft while trying to view the dial indicator -- no Jane Mansfield scarfs, no long hair, no draw strings on coats, no standing in loose piles of halyard.   Consider a good light, a mirror and large magnifying glass to see it from a comfortable position.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:55:12 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] prop shaft                                                   Just wondering if there is a tool for testing if prop shaft running true... no wobbles even minutely...PS... Brent, where are ya these days... I have been to end of Toba and back and now at Harry Yacht... heading north tomorrow or next day...   Toba has a 2 story floating logging outfit barracks.. looks like another valley to be clear cut.  I turned around and returned to Quadra.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1152768853 .ygrps-yiv-1152768853ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1152768853ecxad { padding:0 0;}  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33553|33551|2016-05-27 16:02:57|Matt Malone|Re: prop shaft|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Also, if the shaft is shiny, one can bounce a laser pointer beam circumferentially off the shaft at a 60 degree angle, making an angle of 120 degrees between the incoming and outgoing beam.   Small displacements of the shaft will cause the beam to hit closer or further away around the circumference from the 60 degree point, causing the beam to deflect by an angle different from 60 degrees.  If the beam travels some distance before striking the underside of the cabin top for instance, the displacement of the spot on the underside of the cabin top can be seen.   This is called an optical lever.  Unlike the dial indicator which is direct-reading, one would have to do a lot of geometry to determine how far the shaft moved.    An optical lever could be used to observe hull twist and a lot of other things that might be very small.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:55:12 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] prop shaft                                                   Just wondering if there is a tool for testing if prop shaft running true... no wobbles even minutely...PS... Brent, where are ya these days... I have been to end of Toba and back and now at Harry Yacht... heading north tomorrow or next day...   Toba has a 2 story floating logging outfit barracks.. looks like another valley to be clear cut.  I turned around and returned to Quadra.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1616787979 .ygrps-yiv-1616787979ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1616787979ecxad { padding:0 0;}  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33554|33551|2016-05-27 17:10:10|Alan Boucher|Re: prop shaft|its called dial indicator, you can clamp it several places along the shaft's length with the stylus on the shaft. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 2:55 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                Just wondering if there is a tool for testing if prop shaft running true... no wobbles even minutely...PS... Brent, where are ya these days... I have been to end of Toba and back and now at Harry Yacht... heading north tomorrow or next day...   Toba has a 2 story floating logging outfit barracks.. looks like another valley to be clear cut.  I turned around and returned to Quadra.                                       -- Al Boucher  |
33555|33516|2016-05-27 22:07:28|Matt Malone|DynIce Dux vs. Spectra|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1752780918 .ygrps-yiv-1752780918hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1752780918 .ygrps-yiv-1752780918hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I have been investigating replacing my stainless steel standing rigging with a synthetic.   At the same time I have work-related projects that could benefit from a synthetic as a wire rope replacement.  My standing rigging is 5/16" or 8mm (not sure which) 1x19 wire rope of perhaps 1957 vintage.  I have it all down and have inspected it on a bench.  It is perfect, not a single broken strand or meathook anywhere.  Part of the reason for the replacement is uncertainty because I can only see the outer 12 strands, not the inner 7, or cracks in the fittings (though a dye penetrant would help visualize them if there were any).  Part of the reason for considering a synthetic is for weight savings.  Part of the reason is because I am not yet certain what I will do with the mast.   The current stainless rigging only fits the current mast, whereas a small spool of rope can be spliced by hand to any length. I know that is a lot easier and more quickly said than done, however, I would consider a spool of a strong synthetic as emergency replacement for any rigging component that shows a problem in operation.   It just does not make any sense to not look into these high performance synthetics and learn what I can.   To that end, I investigated prices for DynIce Dux and Spectra.      I figure my current wire rope was good for about 5 tons originally, unknown now, which would match the Nordic design rule of thumb for mast strength for my boat displacement.  Glancing down the list of available sizes, that puts me into 9mm or larger in DynIce Dux.   I am saving so much in weight, I would sooner go heavy, especially for the lower shrouds, which leaves me more of a factor of safety for noticing abrasion before it is a problem.  I figure I need more of a budget for factor of safety with synthetic than I needed with stainless steel.  So I priced about the point of 1/2", but later I also priced smaller ropes and found results only 4% different.   I will not be stating specific prices, because they will change with time.  I decided to evaluate a ratio to give me an idea of, as of today, which product gave me the most bang for the buck.  The ratio is essentially tons/dollar for DynIce Dux divided by tons per dollar for Spectra to compare the two:(DynIce Dux Rope Load/Dynice Dux Rope Price)------------------------------------------------------------------(Spectra Rope Load/Spectra Rope Price)I found DynIce Dux was about 40% more performance per dollar.   I did this calculation for 12 strand, equivalent-construction rope, not cored, not sheathed, in the 1/2" range -- which is heavy for the rigging of a smaller Brent Swain design.      I tried some rope sizes down to 5mm, and found similar answers which suggests to me that the difference comes down to the fibre performance and fibre cost of dyneema vs. spectra.   Now there are a few caveats:  - This does not calculate actual weight because the weight reduction in going synthetic is far greater than the weight difference between synthetics.  Note that Spectra reportedly floats, as does DynIce (a different product), however, I will have to try my DynIce Dux to see if it floats too.     - These are performance numbers given by the respective manufacturers.  Each may doubt the other's methods in testing. - This does not compare longevity claims or actual longevity for the two products.  - The DynIce Dux was priced from the Canadian retailer, I will provide contact information below.  The price for the DynIce Dux was assuming a short length cut from a spool.  The Spectra was priced, lets say, further up the distribution chain because the retailers I found were all yachty and there was no way I was paying yachty prices for a work project.  Further, I priced Spectra only for a full spools.  If anything, the prices I got for Spectra should have been very low compared to yachty, street prices.    - All of these numbers were for brand new, not used, not discounted etc.    - Ropes are only sold in discrete sizes, and these sizes can have large changes in load as one steps up a size.   If one is computing things optimally, it is possible that for your application, DynIce Dux of one metric size is not quite strong enough, and the next metric size up is far too strong and not worth the extra money, and some imperial sized Spectra hits a sweet spot between, shaving a little money instead of having something far stronger than it needs to be. That would not be my thinking for a boat, but a huge industrial project using miles of this stuff, a few percent can mean winning the contract.         I went ahead and purchased a length of DynIce Dux.   I got enough to re-rig a smaller boat, and test for my work-related projects.I got the DynIce Dux from Hampidjian Canada Ltd, the Canadian retailer in Spaniard's Bay, Newfoundland, www.codend.ca .  I dealt with David Kelly though the operation has several other sales personnel and another location in NF.   I found the transaction easy because I was dealing with a retailer who caters to working fishermen.   They did not hassle me about my business, or what I was going to do with the rope.  It felt like I walked up to the counter of a hardware store and got a capable product for a good price and dealt with friendly people.  I have decided I will not buy my high performance synthetic anywhere else, even if the price of spectra drops in the future.             Matt 		 	   		    |
33556|33516|2016-05-27 23:20:09|opuspaul|Re: DynIce Dux vs. Spectra|Wow, 1957 rigging is extremely old for stainless steel.   Pretty amazing.   I bet it was stored or used in fresh water only?   The wire normally breaks where the wire and water enters the lower fittings.   It will normally break on the outer strands first  since there is more stress and twist but there are no guarantees.   It would be impossible to know how much longer it will last.  It could be days, weeks or years.  I would never trust it on a long trip.It looks like Dynex Dux is now re-branded Dynice Dux.   Why couldn't they leave the name alone?   All it does is add confusion.Forget about using Spectra or any of the other softer synthetics designed for running rigging.   Most of the early failures with synthetic rigging were problems with too much stretch using these kind of ropes.   I would only use it on light loads like on a dinghy or where it can be easily adjusted like on a running backstay.   For standing rigging the Dux is what you want.   The Dux version of Dynex (Dynice) is the regular Dynex which is prestretched and then heat treated.    The individual fibers are very compressed together.   Think of it as 10 mm rope becoming stretched down to 9 mm and then locked in place with some heat.    The Dux versions have far less stretch and are for the same diameter stronger.   I used 9mm Dux to replace my 5/16 inch wire.  8 mm wire is virtually the same as 5/16 inch.   At about double the strength of the wire, 9mm Dynex Dux is more than strong enough.   Once the splice is made and tensioned, the splice should lay up nicely and then there should be very little further stretch.   You can stretch it out with a winch or tie it between your bumper of your car and a post if you like.  I marked the rope carefully to allow for each splice so that I could judge the take up needed in the turnbuckles.   Once I did that and installed it on my boat, everything fit and I noticed no more stretch than using normal wire.   Maybe less.   If you have a problem and are chafing through the Dynex Dux rope, then I don't think the larger size will really help you other than delay the time it takes to let go.  I was worried about chafe initially but no longer.I bought my Dynex (Dynice) through David Kelly at Codend as well.   He was good to deal with and gave me a wholesale price at the time.   This was years ago and very few yachts were using it.  I imagine it is a lot more now.Cheers, Paul|
33557|33516|2016-05-28 17:29:28|opuspaul|Re: DynIce Dux vs. Spectra||
33558|33516|2016-05-28 18:16:26|opuspaul|Re: DynIce Dux vs. Spectra|I wouldn't use a truss mast.   It has been done before but it will have a lot of windage and reduce the resale value of your boat.    It may also be a lot of work and end up a lot heavier than you think.   http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1068458610.htm Check out "Building Your Own Mast" in the file section.  It describes how to build a mast using standard alloy tubing or irrigation pipe.  How heavy is the fiberglass mast?  A fiberglass mast is very unusual but if it lasted so long, it might be OK.    Fixing it may not be that big of a deal.   You could cut it and sleeve it using similar methods shown in the file above.  Mast steps don't need to be that heavy.   You can make them from alloy flat bar or make some out of round bar or tubing.   I copied the style that Brent and Moitessier shows in their books.   They work well and don't snag halyards.I think it would be easier to step a mast in one piece than do it in sections.   You don't need a big crane.   All you need is a small Hiab with an extendable boom.    Just lift it from the spreaders.    With some preparation and the right operator, you can put a mast on a boat in about half an hour.   The last time I did it, I was only charged about $50.Cheers, Paul|
33559|33559|2016-05-31 17:57:58|brentswain38|haulout VS grid|A friend just hauled his steel 35 footer out, and ended up spending over $3k on the haulout, only to realize that he could have done 95%of the work he did ,on a tide grid ,for free.Haul out is sometimes knee jerk reaction, done without thinking of the alternatives . The only two haulouts I have done on my boat in 32 years ,was in the tropics, where there was not enough  tidal range, and I had a 4,000 mile windward beat ahead of me.It would be insane here, with  our 17 ft tidal range, unless one was doing some major paint job.  I have heard of people with twin keels, hauling out to" just have  a look at her ." Duuuhhh!!|
33560|33559|2016-05-31 19:00:24|opuspaul|Re: haulout VS grid|This really gets me going.    The environmentalists in NZ have made such a stink that many do-gooders with no common sense have gone out and cut down the poles on the tide grids, even though there is nothing illegal about them.  It is getting harder to find them, even if all you want to do is check your prop.   If you do end up using a grid here, it is mandatory that you catch all the scrapings off the hull.  I have no problem about protecting the environment and I can live with that since all I need to do is spread a tarp out.  If you go up on a beach somewhere and start scraping, there will be some greenie idiot sitting in a vacation home who will call the cops to report you or call emergency thinking you need rescuing.   I think a lot of the marinas and expensive boatyards are behind it....they want you to use their expensive facilities, no matter what.  Some of the boat yards now won't let you do your own sanding without renting their vacuum sanding systems and you need to hire their "team of trained experts" to sand the antifouling.   All they are going to do is destroy boating for families and the common man.     They can all get stuffed.   Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :A friend just hauled his steel 35 footer out, and ended up spending over $3k on the haulout, only to realize that he could have done 95%of the work he did ,on a tide grid ,for free.Haul out is sometimes knee jerk reaction, done without thinking of the alternatives . The only two haulouts I have done on my boat in 32 years ,was in the tropics, where there was not enough  tidal range, and I had a 4,000 mile windward beat ahead of me.It would be insane here, with  our 17 ft tidal range, unless one was doing some major paint job.  I have heard of people with twin keels, hauling out to" just have  a look at her ." Duuuhhh!!|
33561|33559|2016-06-01 12:29:00|theboilerflue|Re: haulout VS grid|I actually have had the Coasties called on me once for that exact reason, or something along that line. Came over from saltspring in a storm in their big boat to come rescue me from certain death.The coast guard officer said they had recieved a call that there was a mast sticking out over these condos behind where I was - as though I was leaning over like a single keeled boat, which clearly never happened. Really it was propably one of the homeowners thinking that it's the government's job to enforce their strange ideas of whats right in the world.|
33562|33559|2016-06-01 15:31:41|brentswain38|Re: haulout VS grid|The nice thing about BC, for single keelers,  is that there are plenty of rocks to lean against, with a flat bottom next to them, far from any dirt dwellers , or their bureaucrat diaper changers. Those cruising here would be wise to scout them out at low tide, while cruising, for future reference .If  you know the spot, you just pull along side at high tide,and tie your halyard to  a tree , and let the tide go out, After the first time,  it becomes routine. Check the parking lots for the oil stains those dirt dwellers leave behind, which runs into the streams and oceans, eventually .The cruising lifestyle has an environmental impact which is a tiny fraction of what  theirs is.Hippocracy at its worst!|
33563|33559|2016-06-01 15:43:12|Darren Bos|Re: haulout VS grid|                   Drying out to check the hull, replace a throughull or do a light     cleaning is one thing.  But if you are leaving any appreciable     amount of bottom paint behind, you really should be collecting it     and storing it until you can dispose of it properly.  If someone     cleaned and scraped their hull in a place where I regularly     collected clams, or oysters I'd be pretty pissed off.  On the other     hand I've beached my old twin keel boat in more industrial areas and     never had anyone complain.  Both sides of this need to put their     thinking caps on,  part of the reason shoreside folks can be touchy     is that many have experienced derelict boats who owners abandon     them, or witnessed the constant oil film in the water in marinas     because so many boats can't be bothered to keep their bilge clean.      If you're not leaving behind bottom paint or other toxic garbage,     then the coasties and DFO aren't likely to cause you trouble.  Just     thank them for keeping an eye out for the other morons and get on     with your work.          On 16-06-01 09:28 AM,       haidan@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            I actually have had the Coasties called on me once for               that exact reason, or something along that line. Came over               from saltspring in a storm in their big boat to come               rescue me from certain death.The coast guard officer said               they had recieved a call that there was a mast sticking               out over these condos behind where I was - as though I was               leaning over like a single keeled boat, which clearly               never happened. Really it was propably one of the               homeowners thinking that it's the government's job to               enforce their strange ideas of whats right in the world.                                                   |
33564|33559|2016-06-01 16:57:03|brentswain38|Re: haulout VS grid|Pretty hard to find industrial  areas here, without traveling hundreds of miles to get to one.No thanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : Drying out to check the hull, replace a throughull or do a light cleaning is one thing.  But if you are leaving any appreciable amount of bottom paint behind, you really should be collecting it and storing it until you can dispose of it properly.  If someone cleaned and scraped their hull in a place where I regularly collected clams, or oysters I'd be pretty pissed off.  On the other hand I've beached my old twin keel boat in more industrial areas and never had anyone complain.  Both sides of this need to put their thinking caps on,  part of the reason shoreside folks can be touchy is that many have experienced derelict boats who owners abandon them, or witnessed the constant oil film in the water in marinas because so many boats can't be bothered to keep their bilge clean.  If you're not leaving behind bottom paint or other toxic garbage, then the coasties and DFO aren't likely to cause you trouble.  Just thank them for keeping an eye out for the other morons and get on with your work. On 16-06-01 09:28 AM, haidan@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I actually have had the Coasties called on me once for that exact reason, or something along that line. Came over from saltspring in a storm in their big boat to come rescue me from certain death.The coast guard officer said they had recieved a call that there was a mast sticking out over these condos behind where I was - as though I was leaning over like a single keeled boat, which clearly never happened. Really it was propably one of the homeowners thinking that it's the government's job to enforce their strange ideas of whats right in the world.  |
33565|33565|2016-06-03 18:10:15|smallboatvoyaguer|Photo of poured sockets|Does an body have a photo if their poured sockets they could post?|
33566|33543|2016-06-03 18:12:11|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Priming Welds| What about the tiny bits of slag that won't seem to come out even with the wire wheel?|
33567|33567|2016-06-03 18:52:28|smallboatvoyaguer|Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|Anyone purchased and used these $14.49 a piece turnbuckles? http://www.e-rigging.com/five-eighths-inch-X-12-inch-Jaw-Jaw-Turnbuckle?gclid=Cj0KEQjw1cS6BRDvhtKL89em1oIBEiQAtZO5x-7LEJ674CHBf74mwWDMCw7qkXAB9yR8fqTsTcPivIwaAv_l8P8HAQThoughts? They cost two to four times as much from a "reputable" dealer like Westech.-Mar |
33568|33567|2016-06-03 19:00:49|Matt Malone|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> No, I have not used these.  Note the link you included includes: >Working load limit:  3500 lbs. Note stainless steel of the same size:http://www.e-rigging.com/drop-forged-jaw-x-jaw-turnbuckleShows a 5/8" stainless steel with WLL of 3,500 lbs also.  No recommendations, just observing.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 15:52:28 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?                                                   Anyone purchased and used these $14.49 a piece turnbuckles? http://www.e-rigging.com/five-eighths-inch-X-12-inch-Jaw-Jaw-Turnbuckle?gclid=Cj0KEQjw1cS6BRDvhtKL89em1oIBEiQAtZO5x-7LEJ674CHBf74mwWDMCw7qkXAB9yR8fqTsTcPivIwaAv_l8P8HAQThoughts? They cost two to four times as much from a "reputable" dealer like Westech.-Mar                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1548373177ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1548373177 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33569|33543|2016-06-04 05:34:27|jpronk1|Re: Priming Welds|Do you have an air compressor? I would use a small gravity feed sand blaster or a needler to get that last bit of slag out. JamesSent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2016, at 6:12 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                               What about the tiny bits of slag that won't seem to come out even with the wire wheel?                          |
33570|33565|2016-06-04 05:35:17|jpronk1|Re: Photo of poured sockets|I will try to do it later todaySent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                              Does an body have a photo if their poured sockets they could post?                          |
33571|33567|2016-06-04 14:11:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|The stainless turnbuckles you linked to are different size.|
33572|33572|2016-06-04 14:13:32|smallboatvoyaguer|Making Choks| Any tips on making chocks aka how to make the bends of the rod to the desired shape/ dimension?|
33573|33572|2016-06-04 19:07:46|brentswain38|Re: Making Choks|I weld a couple of inch long pieces of 2 inch pipe to a heavy plate or workbench, a half inch between them. Halfway along one side of the chock, I weld a piece of scrap, to hold the end of the half inch rod in while bending it. Then, I stick the end of the SS half inch rod just inside this tab. Then I heat the part of the rod  just contacting the pipe until it gets red and soft, and start bending it. Then, progressively move along the rod with the heat, bearing in mind that the hottest part is where she will bend . Make sure that only  the hottest part is the place you want it to bend.Otherwise, it will bend where you don't want it to bend. After you have -bent up the liner , zip cut it to length, bang it into its final shape, and weld it shut.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Any tips on making chocks aka how to make the bends of the rod to the desired shape/ dimension?|
33574|33543|2016-06-04 19:10:32|brentswain38|Re: Priming Welds|I wouldn't worry about tiny bits of slag, as long as they are tiny. I didn't on my boat, and its given me no problem in 32 years.Anything too tiny to blast out, is too tiny to matter.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : What about the tiny bits of slag that won't seem to come out even with the wire wheel?|
33575|33567|2016-06-04 19:13:01|brentswain38|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|They look identical  to mine, which cost me $23 each. Pound on one to make sure it is not cast. If it is not cast, it will work fine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Anyone purchased and used these $14.49 a piece turnbuckles? http://www.e-rigging.com/five-eighths-inch-X-12-inch-Jaw-Jaw-Turnbuckle?gclid=Cj0KEQjw1cS6BRDvhtKL89em1oIBEiQAtZO5x-7LEJ674CHBf74mwWDMCw7qkXAB9yR8fqTsTcPivIwaAv_l8P8HAQThoughts? They cost two to four times as much from a "reputable" dealer like Westech.-Mar |
33576|33567|2016-06-05 07:38:26|Matt Malone|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-2127665982 .ygrps-yiv-2127665982hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2127665982 .ygrps-yiv-2127665982hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Yes, they were a different length (6"), but it is the cross-section that determines strength in tension.  I was only meaning to compare the strength of the ones you were looking at to drop-forged stainless steel, with the same WLL.   Meaning, the ones you were looking at were comparable.  If one assumes drop-forged stainless is good and sufficient, then you have the answer for yours.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 11:11:52 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?                                                   The stainless turnbuckles you linked to are different size.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-2127665982 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33577|33572|2016-06-05 07:48:08|Matt Malone|Re: Making Choks|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> This sounds good and simple, but, I am not quite visualizing it.   Is there a photo anywhere on the site that shows any stage of this manufacture / the finished product ?Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 16:07:45 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks                                                   I weld a couple of inch long pieces of 2 inch pipe to a heavy plate or workbench, a half inch between them. Halfway along one side of the chock, I weld a piece of scrap, to hold the end of the half inch rod in while bending it. Then, I stick the end of the SS half inch rod just inside this tab. Then I heat the part of the rod  just contacting the pipe until it gets red and soft, and start bending it. Then, progressively move along the rod with the heat, bearing in mind that the hottest part is where she will bend . Make sure that only  the hottest part is the place you want it to bend.Otherwise, it will bend where you don't want it to bend. After you have -bent up the liner , zip cut it to length, bang it into its final shape, and weld it shut.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Any tips on making chocks aka how to make the bends of the rod to the desired shape/ dimension?                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-439754355 .ygrps-yiv-439754355ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-439754355ecxad { padding:0 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33578|33572|2016-06-05 21:33:24|brentswain38|Re: Making Choks|Tack the pipe ends to a flat plate and use that as a mold , to wrap the ss rod around, with  a bit of heat.|
33579|33572|2016-06-06 10:25:36|Matt Malone|Re: Making Choks|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> So one uses the pipe as a form to bend the stainless rod into a shape that is a cross between this:http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20094/China_Split_link20094221718494.jpgand this:http://www.dawnmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Stainless-Steel-Skene-Bow-Chock-1-480x480.jpgAnd because you started with round rod, there is less polishing to do to make the line slide through it smoothly, and because you are using a 2" pipe to form it, there are no kinks to catch the line at tight angles.   All that is left is to weld the split-link shape to a plate to make it into an open chock.  I am going to suggest if one has the ability to heat the rod to make it soft, then one should be able to heat it and tap it with a smooth-faced hammer against an anvil and make it somewhat elliptical in cross-section, dress it with a belt sander to get rid of any surface features added by the hammer, polish it even, then use Brent's form to bend it.   A solid shape like this would be the goal in hammering:http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/376536.jpgOne would have to start with 5/8" or 3/4" rod in that case.   If one wanted to get fancier, a blacksmith's swagging block:https://www.google.ca/search?q=split+link&client=browser-ubuntu&hs=x2H&sa=G&channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&imgil=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%253B5zJU_XK-opti6M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ecvv.com%25252Fproduct%25252F1971558.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%252C5zJU_XK-opti6M%252C_&usg=__9318KgGEkEIuAa4HVFBD7L_-NAg%3D&biw=1163&bih=861&ved=0ahUKEwjngMSGyJPNAhVCOD4KHXrLCloQyjcIJw&ei=IIJVV-fwEMLw-AH6lqvQBQ#channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&q=blacksmith+swagging+block(sort of a 3D French curve set)  could give the one side a different curve than the other.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:33:24 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks                                                   Tack the pipe ends to a flat plate and use that as a mold , to wrap the ss rod around, with  a bit of heat.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-563899464 .ygrps-yiv-563899464ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-563899464ecxygrp-mkp 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33580|33572|2016-06-06 12:14:56|Aaron|Re: Making Choks|Matt Like this              From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   Sent: Monday, June 6, 2016 6:22 AM  Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks         So one uses the pipe as a form to bend the stainless rod into a shape that is a cross between this:  http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20094/China_Split_link20094221718494.jpg  and this:  http://www.dawnmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Stainless-Steel-Skene-Bow-Chock-1-480x480.jpg  And because you started with round rod, there is less polishing to do to make the line slide through it smoothly, and because you are using a 2" pipe to form it, there are no kinks to catch the line at tight angles.   All that is left is to weld the split-link shape to a plate to make it into an open chock.    I am going to suggest if one has the ability to heat the rod to make it soft, then one should be able to heat it and tap it with a smooth-faced hammer against an anvil and make it somewhat elliptical in cross-section, dress it with a belt sander to get rid of any surface features added by the hammer, polish it even, then use Brent's form to bend it.   A solid shape like this would be the goal in hammering:  http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/376536.jpg  One would have to start with 5/8" or 3/4" rod in that case.   If one wanted to get fancier, a blacksmith's swagging block:  https://www.google.ca/search?q=split+link&client=browser-ubuntu&hs=x2H&sa=G&channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&imgil=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%253B5zJU_XK-opti6M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ecvv.com%25252Fproduct%25252F1971558.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%252C5zJU_XK-opti6M%252C_&usg=__9318KgGEkEIuAa4HVFBD7L_-NAg%3D&biw=1163&bih=861&ved=0ahUKEwjngMSGyJPNAhVCOD4KHXrLCloQyjcIJw&ei=IIJVV-fwEMLw-AH6lqvQBQ#channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&q=blacksmith+swagging+block  (sort of a 3D French curve set)  could give the one side a different curve than the other.    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:33:24 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks             Tack the pipe ends to a flat plate and use that as a mold , to wrap the ss rod around, with  a bit of heat.       #yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868 -- #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp #yiv6485163868hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp #yiv6485163868ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp .yiv6485163868ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp .yiv6485163868ad p {margin:0;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-mkp .yiv6485163868ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6485163868 #yiv6485163868ygrp-sponsor #yiv6485163868ygrp-lc 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33581|33572|2016-06-06 12:23:07|Aaron|Re: Making Choks|Picture shows how a chock is made similar to how Brent described Trying to attach picture       From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   Sent: Monday, June 6, 2016 6:22 AM  Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks         So one uses the pipe as a form to bend the stainless rod into a shape that is a cross between this:  http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20094/China_Split_link20094221718494.jpg  and this:  http://www.dawnmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Stainless-Steel-Skene-Bow-Chock-1-480x480.jpg  And because you started with round rod, there is less polishing to do to make the line slide through it smoothly, and because you are using a 2" pipe to form it, there are no kinks to catch the line at tight angles.   All that is left is to weld the split-link shape to a plate to make it into an open chock.    I am going to suggest if one has the ability to heat the rod to make it soft, then one should be able to heat it and tap it with a smooth-faced hammer against an anvil and make it somewhat elliptical in cross-section, dress it with a belt sander to get rid of any surface features added by the hammer, polish it even, then use Brent's form to bend it.   A solid shape like this would be the goal in hammering:  http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/376536.jpg  One would have to start with 5/8" or 3/4" rod in that case.   If one wanted to get fancier, a blacksmith's swagging block:  https://www.google.ca/search?q=split+link&client=browser-ubuntu&hs=x2H&sa=G&channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&imgil=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%253B5zJU_XK-opti6M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ecvv.com%25252Fproduct%25252F1971558.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%252C5zJU_XK-opti6M%252C_&usg=__9318KgGEkEIuAa4HVFBD7L_-NAg%3D&biw=1163&bih=861&ved=0ahUKEwjngMSGyJPNAhVCOD4KHXrLCloQyjcIJw&ei=IIJVV-fwEMLw-AH6lqvQBQ#channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&q=blacksmith+swagging+block  (sort of a 3D French curve set)  could give the one side a different curve than the other.    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:33:24 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks             Tack the pipe ends to a flat plate and use that as a mold , to wrap the ss rod around, with  a bit of heat.       #yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252 -- #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp #yiv9119571252hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp #yiv9119571252ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp .yiv9119571252ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp .yiv9119571252ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp .yiv9119571252ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-sponsor #yiv9119571252ygrp-lc 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33582|33572|2016-06-06 12:54:20|Aaron|Re: Making Choks|I guess I can not attach a photo Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 6, 2016 8:20 AM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks                                       Picture shows how a chock is made similar to how Brent described Trying to attach picture       From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   Sent: Monday, June 6, 2016 6:22 AM  Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks         So one uses the pipe as a form to bend the stainless rod into a shape that is a cross between this:  http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20094/China_Split_link20094221718494.jpg  and this:  http://www.dawnmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Stainless-Steel-Skene-Bow-Chock-1-480x480.jpg  And because you started with round rod, there is less polishing to do to make the line slide through it smoothly, and because you are using a 2" pipe to form it, there are no kinks to catch the line at tight angles.   All that is left is to weld the split-link shape to a plate to make it into an open chock.    I am going to suggest if one has the ability to heat the rod to make it soft, then one should be able to heat it and tap it with a smooth-faced hammer against an anvil and make it somewhat elliptical in cross-section, dress it with a belt sander to get rid of any surface features added by the hammer, polish it even, then use Brent's form to bend it.   A solid shape like this would be the goal in hammering:  http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/376536.jpg  One would have to start with 5/8" or 3/4" rod in that case.   If one wanted to get fancier, a blacksmith's swagging block:  https://www.google.ca/search?q=split+link&client=browser-ubuntu&hs=x2H&sa=G&channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&imgil=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%253B5zJU_XK-opti6M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ecvv.com%25252Fproduct%25252F1971558.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=kFY60pDiYidZQM%253A%252C5zJU_XK-opti6M%252C_&usg=__9318KgGEkEIuAa4HVFBD7L_-NAg%3D&biw=1163&bih=861&ved=0ahUKEwjngMSGyJPNAhVCOD4KHXrLCloQyjcIJw&ei=IIJVV-fwEMLw-AH6lqvQBQ#channel=fe&hl=en&tbm=isch&q=blacksmith+swagging+block  (sort of a 3D French curve set)  could give the one side a different curve than the other.    Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:33:24 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Making Choks        Tack the pipe ends to a flat plate and use that as a mold , to wrap the ss rod around, with  a bit of heat.       #yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252 -- #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp #yiv9119571252hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp #yiv9119571252ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp .yiv9119571252ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp .yiv9119571252ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-mkp .yiv9119571252ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9119571252 #yiv9119571252ygrp-sponsor #yiv9119571252ygrp-lc 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33583|33583|2016-06-06 18:21:17|smallboatvoyaguer|Mast Arch Size| I'm trying to figure out how "deep" to make the top of the mast arch. The plans look like 6 inches. I was thinking 8 inches or so. |
33584|33567|2016-06-06 18:22:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|I emailed the supplier. They say they are forged and not cast.|
33585|33585|2016-06-06 18:35:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Painting Aluminum Hatches| What are peoples method for painting their aluminum hatches?Sandblasting on Saturday if the weather holds.|
33586|33567|2016-06-06 22:20:14|opuspaul|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|Safe working load or working load limit means little when it comes to standing rigging on a boat.   What is the breaking strength?  It should be much more than the wire.   A rule of thumb is that breaking strength is about 2 to 2.5 times  safe or working limit but there are no guarantees.   For quality Crosby galv turnbuckles, proof load is 2.5 times and ultimate load is 5 times working load limit.  The 5/8 inch should be OK but if I was buying a Chinese turnbuckle and they aren't willing to quote the ultimate strength, or say that it fits an approval standard,  I wouldn't trust them.  Saving a few dollars on turnbuckles will not be worth it when you are crashing along in a storm trying to sleep at night worrying the rig is going to fall down.   Crosby® HG-228 Jaw & Jaw Turnbuckles - The Crosby Group                             Crosby® HG-228 Jaw & Jaw Turnbuckles - The Crosby ...   Crosby's full product listing of the Crosby® HG-228 Jaw & Jaw Turnbuckles and details.             View on www.thecrosbygrou...        Preview by Yahoo              |
33587|33585|2016-06-06 22:29:31|jaybeecherbay|Re: Painting Aluminum Hatches|I blasted mine with the same grit has the hull, and then applied two coats of intershield300 then a polyurethane...they turned out great, but I am sure just leaving the aluminum would be good.  It didn't cost me anymore to blast and paint them so I did....|
33588|33585|2016-06-06 22:38:53|opuspaul|Re: Painting Aluminum Hatches|Blasting aluminum gives a good surface key for the paint to grab and stick.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :I blasted mine with the same grit has the hull, and then applied two coats of intershield300 then a polyurethane...they turned out great, but I am sure just leaving the aluminum would be good.  It didn't cost me anymore to blast and paint them so I did....|
33589|33567|2016-06-07 15:55:08|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|The crosby 5/8" x 12"turnbuckels are $100 a pop. That's $900 or all the turnbuckles.|
33590|33567|2016-06-07 16:17:24|mountain man|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Better find some used bronze MerrimanTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 12:55:08 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?                                                   The crosby 5/8" x 12"turnbuckels are $100 a pop. That's $900 or all the turnbuckles.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-64563715 .ygrps-yiv-64563715ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-64563715ecxad a { 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33591|33567|2016-06-07 16:41:45|opuspaul|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|I didn't say to buy the Crosby but that you should read the specs on the ones you are buying before making a decision.  Cheers, Paul|
33592|33572|2016-06-07 17:56:30|brentswain38|Re: Making Choks|No its just a complete oval,welded in flush with the bulwark pipe. On one 36 I built, the owner had the liners welded up by the time I got there ,so I finished the chocks while the plate was flat on the ground, at least with the inside welds done.|
33593|33583|2016-06-07 17:58:44|brentswain38|Re: Mast Arch Size|I give her 7 inches of camber in six feet for the cabintop camber. The bottom, I leave 3 inches in the middle and take the ends down to cabin side height, in a smooth curve.|
33594|33585|2016-06-07 18:00:52|brentswain38|Re: Painting Aluminum Hatches|A friend ,who builds aluminium boats, said the only way to get paint to stick to aluminium well,  that he has found, is lightly sandblasting it immediately before painting.|
33595|33585|2016-06-07 18:28:20|J Fisher|Re: Painting Aluminum Hatches|That is the way we got Teflon to stick to aluminum.  Sand or bead blast then spray on the coating. It provides mechanical adhesion. The surface finish of the aluminum should be rough enough that it slightly protrudes through the primer. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2016, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                              A friend ,who builds aluminium boats, said the only way to get paint to stick to aluminium well,  that he has found, is lightly sandblasting it immediately before painting.                          |
33596|33596|2016-06-07 18:29:57|cal_sailing44|316Stainless steel Thru hulls|Hi Brent and all, I have been a long time lurker  on this forum and I have bought Brents book and video :-)  I am refitting my 40 ft Steel Ketch (unfortunately not a Swain) I want to replace my mild steel pipe Thru hulls and fixed cockpit drain pipes with 316 Stainless steel pipe. I am reading conflicting articles on the web about Stainless below the water line?? So I thought I would ask this forum and those that I believe would know With real world experience. The plan is to sail her and live aboard in sub and tropical waters for the next 15-20 years. My intent is to weld in thick walled 316SS pipe in and then as normal paint the interior of the of the pipe at the weld and the area that is submerged with an epoxy paint. these will be topped off with 316 SS sea cocks Obliviously crevice corrosion is my concern? and below waterline failure?Any advice is appreciated with real world experience.Regards Cal |
33597|33567|2016-06-07 18:38:21|brentswain38|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|That kind of cost is definitely not justified.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :The crosby 5/8" x 12"turnbuckels are $100 a pop. That's $900 or all the turnbuckles.|
33598|33596|2016-06-08 18:15:00|brentswain38|Re: 316Stainless steel Thru hulls|What do over 99% of cruising boats have for prop shafts? Stainless , below the waterline. No problems.I have been using stainless thru hulls and  stainless ball valves on them,below the waterline,  for  40 years, with absolutely no problem of any kind. This is not the case for critics of such a simple solution, who have no end of problems trying to avoid such a tried and true practise.In Auckland, I was moored off a shipyard for a year. The foreman said they tired every type of thru hull ever suggested, and found that a SS pipe nipples welded in were absolutely the best ,with  no drawbacks whatever. There is no need for heavy walled stainless, Sch 40 is perfect, as you will  have zero corrosion in them anyway. Where you have a huge amount of stainless welded to a small amount of mild steel ,the stainless will eat the mild steel. Where  you have a huge amount of mild steel welded to a small amount  of stainless, there is no problem. Your zincs will take care of it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <cal_sailing44@...> wrote :Hi Brent and all, I have been a long time lurker  on this forum and I have bought Brents book and video :-)  I am refitting my 40 ft Steel Ketch (unfortunately not a Swain) I want to replace my mild steel pipe Thru hulls and fixed cockpit drain pipes with 316 Stainless steel pipe. I am reading conflicting articles on the web about Stainless below the water line?? So I thought I would ask this forum and those that I believe would know With real world experience. The plan is to sail her and live aboard in sub and tropical waters for the next 15-20 years. My intent is to weld in thick walled 316SS pipe in and then as normal paint the interior of the of the pipe at the weld and the area that is submerged with an epoxy paint. these will be topped off with 316 SS sea cocks Obliviously crevice corrosion is my concern? and below waterline failure?Any advice is appreciated with real world experience.RegardsCal |
33599|33596|2016-06-08 19:17:48|Matt Malone|Re: 316Stainless steel Thru hulls|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1274828630 .ygrps-yiv-1274828630hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1274828630 .ygrps-yiv-1274828630hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Thank you Brent for including the original message.  I find too often you do not, and when your answers are quite brief in a long thread, I am sometimes confused what post you are responding to.Very useful answer.   So, the caveat is, as long as you follow best practices and make sure your zincs are good, and never leave a boat in the water without maintenance -- no problem?   I am sure that is always true, but, I do not think any of us have to look far down the dock to see a recreational boat that does not get regular maintenance.   I am sure we have all seen a boat sink at its slip.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:15:00 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 316Stainless steel Thru hulls                                                   What do over 99% of cruising boats have for prop shafts? Stainless , below the waterline. No problems.I have been using stainless thru hulls and  stainless ball valves on them,below the waterline,  for  40 years, with absolutely no problem of any kind. This is not the case for critics of such a simple solution, who have no end of problems trying to avoid such a tried and true practise.In Auckland, I was moored off a shipyard for a year. The foreman said they tired every type of thru hull ever suggested, and found that a SS pipe nipples welded in were absolutely the best ,with  no drawbacks whatever. There is no need for heavy walled stainless, Sch 40 is perfect, as you will  have zero corrosion in them anyway. Where you have a huge amount of stainless welded to a small amount of mild steel ,the stainless will eat the mild steel. Where  you have a huge amount of mild steel welded to a small amount  of stainless, there is no problem. Your zincs will take care of it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <cal_sailing44@...> wrote :Hi Brent and all, I have been a long time lurker  on this forum and I have bought Brents book and video :-)  I am refitting my 40 ft Steel Ketch (unfortunately not a Swain) I want to replace my mild steel pipe Thru hulls and fixed cockpit drain pipes with 316 Stainless steel pipe. I am reading conflicting articles on the web about Stainless below the water line?? So I thought I would ask this forum and those that I believe would know With real world experience. The plan is to sail her and live aboard in sub and tropical waters for the next 15-20 years. My intent is to weld in thick walled 316SS pipe in and then as normal paint the interior of the of the pipe at the weld and the area that is submerged with an epoxy paint. these will be topped off with 316 SS sea cocks Obliviously crevice corrosion is my concern? and below waterline failure?Any advice is appreciated with real world experience.RegardsCal                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1274828630 .ygrps-yiv-1274828630ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1274828630ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1274828630 .ygrps-yiv-1274828630ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1274828630ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1274828630 .ygrps-yiv-1274828630ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1274828630ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1274828630ecxhd { 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33600|33596|2016-06-08 20:03:29|cal_sailing44|Re: 316Stainless steel Thru hulls|Cheers Brent and paint the inside as normal I assume?RegardsCal---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-232192479 #ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506 .ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-232192479 #ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506 .ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Thank you Brent for including the original message.  I find too often you do not, and when your answers are quite brief in a long thread, I am sometimes confused what post you are responding to.Very useful answer.   So, the caveat is, as long as you follow best practices and make sure your zincs are good, and never leave a boat in the water without maintenance -- no problem?   I am sure that is always true, but, I do not think any of us have to look far down the dock to see a recreational boat that does not get regular maintenance.   I am sure we have all seen a boat sink at its slip.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:15:00 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 316Stainless steel Thru hulls  What do over 99% of cruising boats have for prop shafts? Stainless , below the waterline. No problems.I have been using stainless thru hulls and  stainless ball valves on them,below the waterline,  for  40 years, with absolutely no problem of any kind. This is not the case for critics of such a simple solution, who have no end of problems trying to avoid such a tried and true practise.In Auckland, I was moored off a shipyard for a year. The foreman said they tired every type of thru hull ever suggested, and found that a SS pipe nipples welded in were absolutely the best ,with  no drawbacks whatever. There is no need for heavy walled stainless, Sch 40 is perfect, as you will  have zero corrosion in them anyway. Where you have a huge amount of stainless welded to a small amount of mild steel ,the stainless will eat the mild steel. Where  you have a huge amount of mild steel welded to a small amount  of stainless, there is no problem. Your zincs will take care of it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <cal_sailing44@...> wrote :Hi Brent and all, I have been a long time lurker  on this forum and I have bought Brents book and video :-)  I am refitting my 40 ft Steel Ketch (unfortunately not a Swain) I want to replace my mild steel pipe Thru hulls and fixed cockpit drain pipes with 316 Stainless steel pipe. I am reading conflicting articles on the web about Stainless below the water line?? So I thought I would ask this forum and those that I believe would know With real world experience. The plan is to sail her and live aboard in sub and tropical waters for the next 15-20 years. My intent is to weld in thick walled 316SS pipe in and then as normal paint the interior of the of the pipe at the weld and the area that is submerged with an epoxy paint. these will be topped off with 316 SS sea cocks Obliviously crevice corrosion is my concern? and below waterline failure?Any advice is appreciated with real world experience.RegardsCal #ygrps-yiv-232192479 #ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506 .ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-232192479 #ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506 .ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-232192479ygrps-yiv-713191506ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-232192479 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33601|33567|2016-06-09 13:22:12|theboilerflue|Re: Chep Ebay/Amazon/Online Turnbuckles?|i bought my rated turnbuckles from the the same place i got the rigging wire and got to do the swages from. The  turnbuckles were 32 bucks a piece and each end cost about 9 bucks for  the thimble and the black steel nicopress type thing. Those  prices were pretty much competitive prices throughout, in other places I  looked. Go look in a place that sells wire rope to the industrial/commercial market, my whole rig cost about 800 bucks or so  with the wire and turnbuckles, ends, I can't imagine the price has  changed much for simple galvanized steel in common usage.they look just like these, which are about 32 bucks...Forged Jaw & Jaw Turnbuckles w/Locknuts - BC Fasteners                             Forged Jaw & Jaw Turnbuckles w/Locknuts - ...   Forged Jaw & Jaw Turnbuckles w/Locknuts: Forged carbon steel. Hot dipped galvanized. Design factor proof load 2.5:1, ultimate load 5:1.              View on bcfasteners.com          Preview by Yahoo              |
33602|33602|2016-06-14 14:25:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|I sandblasted my Swain. Actually, a friend of mine did and several other friends helped out. Sandblasting was a fucking nightmare, more or less. I am relieved it is over. A friend has a business that uses sandblasting and he let me rent the gear for cheap, and my other friend (Mark) is his employee, and so Mark did the actual blasting, while myself, Sadie, and Matt topped off the hopper, shook the blast pot, purged lines, and activated the deadman switch, via hand signals from Mark. The compressor was 185 CFM on a trailer, which ran on diesel. The blast pot was a 150 pound pot. Clemco was the brand. Photos eventually. I didn't have a camera, and they are on Marks phone. We rigged a tarp skirt from a bunch of shitty tarps around the boat. This did a little to contain the mess, mostly it acted as a chimney and directed the dust up into the sky.  We started at 9 AM with medium grain crushed glass. This hardly did anything except make us discouraged at how much time it was all gonna take. The blasting was painfully slow. We used up the 26 fifty pound bags we had very quickly, which only added to the feeling of "oh shit, what have we gotten into".  Then, around noon, we went to the lumber yard and I bought a pallet (26 one hundred pound bags) or silica sand. This was a very fine grain. YES, we had respirators on.  Wow, the difference was incredible. The fine grain silica was about four times as fast.  Thankfully Mark started on the inside of the boat. Mark didn't have to blast the decks or cabin sides because I used galvanized for those. He commented that he did most of the interior blasting "by feel" because he couldn't see anything once the blasting started.. I left out as much interior detailing as possible aka lower longitudinal stringers, engine beds, tank tops, interior tabs, cabin top beams, etc. I also left the back of the pilot house off, cut out all three hatches, cut the hole for the bow mooring bit, installed the anchor locker vent, and cut out the keel slot. This made things much easier and if anyone else is building a boat and will need to sandblast it I highly recommend following suite, or better yet blast before you even put the cabin tops on.  That was my original intention but I got antsy. I think that without these various ventilating holes sandblasting the interior would have been nearly impossible. We had to stop a lot to let the dust settle, and Mark had to change his helmet lens very often. At times the inside of the boat looked like a fucking desert with sand dunes and all.  An hour after we started the second blasting session it started to rain, and so we covered everything up and tucked in for the night. We all felt optimistic about the next day. Next day. Started blasting around 8 AM to the delight of all the boaters in the boat yard/marina. Fortunately everyone in the yard is supportive of the project and no one really got upset. Many people just went out boating when they saw "the plume".  About two hours later we had finished up the interior. I'd say Mark got off about 90% of the mill scale. Just a few dark patches left here or there. Sadie had to leave for birth work. By five PM he had finished the exterior of the hull and we had less then one bag of silica left. I had begun to recycle and screen some sand earlier, slowly blending int with new bags. With the little bit extra sand we blasted the mast arch and the rudder. There is still a bunch of small stuff aka cabin top beams, keel, stringers, that need to be blasted, but I will bring all of that to the booth instead of waking "the plume" again. The main thing was getting the boat done, which was accomplished. We cleaned up the best we could, sweeping, shoveling, and blowing off the blasted surfaces.  Sadie returned and Matt left. Mark, Sadie and I began "cutting" in with the primer on the exterior. Then Mark had to bring the equipment back. By now it was about 8 PM. Sadie got called back to the birth and I primed the exterior in the dark with a headlamp until about 11 PM when Matt returned to help.  I felt like I an asshole saying "grab a headlamp and a roller" so that is when I stopped for the night. I had finished priming the rudder, mast arch, and the entire exterior of the boat (sans decks and cabin sides because I used galvanized for those)  Day Three. Sadie came in at four in the morning, and I left at 6:30 AM to finish priming. I went outside, looked at the sky, and realized I had about 6 hours to finish this shit before I got rained on... again. By about 2 I had most of the interior primed except the lower section of the inside of the hull. I went outside and starting touching up all my holiday's from the headlamp session the night before. I finished priming all the holidays on the hull then realized i was about to run out of  primer.  Then there was thunder. I ran up the ladder, jumped down into the boat and primed what was left. The last roll of the roller used up the last of the primer. I climbed out of the boat through the keel slot and tarped the back of the pilothouse,put the hatches on, and that was that. Day four: Clean-up.-Marlin |
33603|33602|2016-06-14 20:52:34|jpronk1|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|Way to go Marlin. Big job done and it only took 4 days.  Now what, finish off welding and then paint? Looking forward to seeing photos. Keep up the good work.  James   Sent from my iPhone|
33604|33602|2016-06-15 18:03:15|theboilerflue|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|NIce buddy, that sounds similar to my experience, lacking the rain though. I think I used 50 bags or so of copper slag. The black stuff, apparently it creates less dust - I still couln't see anything and had to change visors every pot or so. The big diffference would of been that I had the preprimed steel which I'm sure cleaned up nicer than the mill scale and your wild sand wand waving can be further away and so wider The outside is a dream compared to the inside, you almost don't even need a helmet.|
33605|33602|2016-06-15 20:07:15|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|Sure glad we can get shot blasted and zinc primed plate from the steel  supplier here.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :I sandblasted my Swain. Actually, a friend of mine did and several other friends helped out. Sandblasting was a fucking nightmare, more or less. I am relieved it is over. A friend has a business that uses sandblasting and he let me rent the gear for cheap, and my other friend (Mark) is his employee, and so Mark did the actual blasting, while myself, Sadie, and Matt topped off the hopper, shook the blast pot, purged lines, and activated the deadman switch, via hand signals from Mark. The compressor was 185 CFM on a trailer, which ran on diesel. The blast pot was a 150 pound pot. Clemco was the brand. Photos eventually. I didn't have a camera, and they are on Marks phone. We rigged a tarp skirt from a bunch of shitty tarps around the boat. This did a little to contain the mess, mostly it acted as a chimney and directed the dust up into the sky.  We started at 9 AM with medium grain crushed glass. This hardly did anything except make us discouraged at how much time it was all gonna take. The blasting was painfully slow. We used up the 26 fifty pound bags we had very quickly, which only added to the feeling of "oh shit, what have we gotten into".  Then, around noon, we went to the lumber yard and I bought a pallet (26 one hundred pound bags) or silica sand. This was a very fine grain. YES, we had respirators on.  Wow, the difference was incredible. The fine grain silica was about four times as fast.  Thankfully Mark started on the inside of the boat. Mark didn't have to blast the decks or cabin sides because I used galvanized for those. He commented that he did most of the interior blasting "by feel" because he couldn't see anything once the blasting started.. I left out as much interior detailing as possible aka lower longitudinal stringers, engine beds, tank tops, interior tabs, cabin top beams, etc. I also left the back of the pilot house off, cut out all three hatches, cut the hole for the bow mooring bit, installed the anchor locker vent, and cut out the keel slot. This made things much easier and if anyone else is building a boat and will need to sandblast it I highly recommend following suite, or better yet blast before you even put the cabin tops on.  That was my original intention but I got antsy. I think that without these various ventilating holes sandblasting the interior would have been nearly impossible. We had to stop a lot to let the dust settle, and Mark had to change his helmet lens very often. At times the inside of the boat looked like a fucking desert with sand dunes and all.  An hour after we started the second blasting session it started to rain, and so we covered everything up and tucked in for the night. We all felt optimistic about the next day. Next day. Started blasting around 8 AM to the delight of all the boaters in the boat yard/marina. Fortunately everyone in the yard is supportive of the project and no one really got upset. Many people just went out boating when they saw "the plume".  About two hours later we had finished up the interior. I'd say Mark got off about 90% of the mill scale. Just a few dark patches left here or there. Sadie had to leave for birth work. By five PM he had finished the exterior of the hull and we had less then one bag of silica left. I had begun to recycle and screen some sand earlier, slowly blending int with new bags. With the little bit extra sand we blasted the mast arch and the rudder. There is still a bunch of small stuff aka cabin top beams, keel, stringers, that need to be blasted, but I will bring all of that to the booth instead of waking "the plume" again. The main thing was getting the boat done, which was accomplished. We cleaned up the best we could, sweeping, shoveling, and blowing off the blasted surfaces.  Sadie returned and Matt left. Mark, Sadie and I began "cutting" in with the primer on the exterior. Then Mark had to bring the equipment back. By now it was about 8 PM. Sadie got called back to the birth and I primed the exterior in the dark with a headlamp until about 11 PM when Matt returned to help.  I felt like I an asshole saying "grab a headlamp and a roller" so that is when I stopped for the night. I had finished priming the rudder, mast arch, and the entire exterior of the boat (sans decks and cabin sides because I used galvanized for those)  Day Three. Sadie came in at four in the morning, and I left at 6:30 AM to finish priming. I went outside, looked at the sky, and realized I had about 6 hours to finish this shit before I got rained on... again. By about 2 I had most of the interior primed except the lower section of the inside of the hull. I went outside and starting touching up all my holiday's from the headlamp session the night before. I finished priming all the holidays on the hull then realized i was about to run out of  primer.  Then there was thunder. I ran up the ladder, jumped down into the boat and primed what was left. The last roll of the roller used up the last of the primer. I climbed out of the boat through the keel slot and tarped the back of the pilothouse,put the hatches on, and that was that. Day four: Clean-up.-Marlin |
33606|33602|2016-06-15 21:32:15|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I have never used a blaster on steel before.   I see you recycled some of the sand.   Is this good/effective/OK to have some impurities going through the gun?Shot blasted and zinc primed already sounds like the way to go.   I know there will be a lot of pieces that are not zinc-primed, and there will be the welds where the zinc is compromised, but this should cut the sandblasting down to about 10% of what you describe.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:07:13 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!                                                   Sure glad we can get shot blasted and zinc primed plate from the steel  supplier here.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :I sandblasted my Swain. Actually, a friend of mine did and several other friends helped out. Sandblasting was a fucking nightmare, more or less. I am relieved it is over. A friend has a business that uses sandblasting and he let me rent the gear for cheap, and my other friend (Mark) is his employee, and so Mark did the actual blasting, while myself, Sadie, and Matt topped off the hopper, shook the blast pot, purged lines, and activated the deadman switch, via hand signals from Mark. The compressor was 185 CFM on a trailer, which ran on diesel. The blast pot was a 150 pound pot. Clemco was the brand. Photos eventually. I didn't have a camera, and they are on Marks phone. We rigged a tarp skirt from a bunch of shitty tarps around the boat. This did a little to contain the mess, mostly it acted as a chimney and directed the dust up into the sky.  We started at 9 AM with medium grain crushed glass. This hardly did anything except make us discouraged at how much time it was all gonna take. The blasting was painfully slow. We used up the 26 fifty pound bags we had very quickly, which only added to the feeling of "oh shit, what have we gotten into".  Then, around noon, we went to the lumber yard and I bought a pallet (26 one hundred pound bags) or silica sand. This was a very fine grain. YES, we had respirators on.  Wow, the difference was incredible. The fine grain silica was about four times as fast.  Thankfully Mark started on the inside of the boat. Mark didn't have to blast the decks or cabin sides because I used galvanized for those. He commented that he did most of the interior blasting "by feel" because he couldn't see anything once the blasting started.. I left out as much interior detailing as possible aka lower longitudinal stringers, engine beds, tank tops, interior tabs, cabin top beams, etc. I also left the back of the pilot house off, cut out all three hatches, cut the hole for the bow mooring bit, installed the anchor locker vent, and cut out the keel slot. This made things much easier and if anyone else is building a boat and will need to sandblast it I highly recommend following suite, or better yet blast before you even put the cabin tops on.  That was my original intention but I got antsy. I think that without these various ventilating holes sandblasting the interior would have been nearly impossible. We had to stop a lot to let the dust settle, and Mark had to change his helmet lens very often. At times the inside of the boat looked like a fucking desert with sand dunes and all.  An hour after we started the second blasting session it started to rain, and so we covered everything up and tucked in for the night. We all felt optimistic about the next day. Next day. Started blasting around 8 AM to the delight of all the boaters in the boat yard/marina. Fortunately everyone in the yard is supportive of the project and no one really got upset. Many people just went out boating when they saw "the plume".  About two hours later we had finished up the interior. I'd say Mark got off about 90% of the mill scale. Just a few dark patches left here or there. Sadie had to leave for birth work. By five PM he had finished the exterior of the hull and we had less then one bag of silica left. I had begun to recycle and screen some sand earlier, slowly blending int with new bags. With the little bit extra sand we blasted the mast arch and the rudder. There is still a bunch of small stuff aka cabin top beams, keel, stringers, that need to be blasted, but I will bring all of that to the booth instead of waking "the plume" again. The main thing was getting the boat done, which was accomplished. We cleaned up the best we could, sweeping, shoveling, and blowing off the blasted surfaces.  Sadie returned and Matt left. Mark, Sadie and I began "cutting" in with the primer on the exterior. Then Mark had to bring the equipment back. By now it was about 8 PM. Sadie got called back to the birth and I primed the exterior in the dark with a headlamp until about 11 PM when Matt returned to help.  I felt like I an asshole saying "grab a headlamp and a roller" so that is when I stopped for the night. I had finished priming the rudder, mast arch, and the entire exterior of the boat (sans decks and cabin sides because I used galvanized for those)  Day Three. Sadie came in at four in the morning, and I left at 6:30 AM to finish priming. I went outside, looked at the sky, and realized I had about 6 hours to finish this shit before I got rained on... again. By about 2 I had most of the interior primed except the lower section of the inside of the hull. I went outside and starting touching up all my holiday's from the headlamp session the night before. I finished priming all the holidays on the hull then realized i was about to run out of  primer.  Then there was thunder. I ran up the ladder, jumped down into the boat and primed what was left. The last roll of the roller used up the last of the primer. I climbed out of the boat through the keel slot and tarped the back of the pilothouse,put the hatches on, and that was that. Day four: Clean-up.-Marlin                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-46033316 .ygrps-yiv-46033316ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-46033316ecxad p { }  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33607|33602|2016-06-15 23:51:53|IAN CAMPBELL|Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|#ygrps-yiv-585839547 p {margin:0;}Black slag works as well as silica sand and is much less harzardous for those not signed up to risk their lungs....availabile at lumber yards|
33608|33559|2016-06-16 16:25:30|aaron riis|Re: haulout VS grid|Luckly I still don't have to worry about that on Haida Gwaii.     On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 4:00 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       This really gets me going.    The environmentalists in NZ have made such a stink that many do-gooders with no common sense have gone out and cut down the poles on the tide grids, even though there is nothing illegal about them.  It is getting harder to find them, even if all you want to do is check your prop.   If you do end up using a grid here, it is mandatory that you catch all the scrapings off the hull.  I have no problem about protecting the environment and I can live with that since all I need to do is spread a tarp out.  If you go up on a beach somewhere and start scraping, there will be some greenie idiot sitting in a vacation home who will call the cops to report you or call emergency thinking you need rescuing.   I think a lot of the marinas and expensive boatyards are behind it....they want you to use their expensive facilities, no matter what.  Some of the boat yards now won't let you do your own sanding without renting their vacuum sanding systems and you need to hire their "team of trained experts" to sand the antifouling.   All they are going to do is destroy boating for families and the common man.     They can all get stuffed.   Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :A friend just hauled his steel 35 footer out, and ended up spending over $3k on the haulout, only to realize that he could have done 95%of the work he did ,on a tide grid ,for free.Haul out is sometimes knee jerk reaction, done without thinking of the alternatives . 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33609|33609|2016-06-23 16:38:47|smallboatvoyaguer|Inside of hatch coaming|What are people doing on the interior side of there various hatch coamings? Trimming it flush with the cabin tops? Or leaving it long and foaming around it?|
33610|33609|2016-06-24 12:09:27|Matt Malone|Re: Inside of hatch coaming|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1632826247 .ygrps-yiv-1632826247hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1632826247 .ygrps-yiv-1632826247hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I would leave it long for several reasons:   - You can always trim it later, with a die grinder and a cut off wheel.    - The option of adding an interior covering of any sort is always possible even if you do not do it now.   - If the hatch leaks even a drop, the water will certainly drip off the bottom of the coaming (if left long) instead of running along the underside of the cabin tops (if made flush).  Drips running the underside of the cabin top are likely to drip off randomly all over the place.  The most likely direction this drip will run is forward, and this is commonly an area with a berth. By dripping down immediately, the water will find its way to the bilge by the most direct route, wetting less of the interior regardless of where it runs.    - Since you cannot insulate the vertical part of the coaming, it will condense water in cold weather, so, there will at least be condensation drips from the combing.  Best this drips straight down, the shortest route to the bilge.  I would leave the coaming at least 1 inch longer than the maximum possible you think might be useful, and put a rubber bumper, like a fridge seal or foam weather stripping or slit pex tubing or something around it.   It is an edge at head level, and a hazard, even during construction.  Weld a 5/8" or 3/4" x 1/8" flat-bar T-style/horizontally to the bottom edge of the coaming so equal amounts stick inside, and outside the coaming.  Cleverly slit 1/2" pex tubing, open it and let it snap back around the flat bar.  Water dripping down the coaming would likely reach the flat bar and already be caught in the pex tubing.  The pex tube is acting like a gutter.  Use some vinyl attach to a small fitting on the pex to conduct the drips, via the vinyl tube to the bilge.  Provided drips are only occasional,  nothing in the cabin gets wet.  A good foam job avoids condensation, this just manages some inevitable condensation.  You have no choice.  Your hatch and coaming will be a natural dehumidifier, using no electricity, just the heat from your wood stove.  It is your choice where the condensate water goes.   Leaving a lip makes it easier to manage it, no matter how you do it.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:38:47 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Inside of hatch coaming                                                   What are people doing on the interior side of there various hatch coamings? Trimming it flush with the cabin tops? 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33611|33609|2016-06-25 10:26:32|haidan|Re: Inside of hatch coaming|Leave it. Youre gonna want about 11/2" -2" on both sides. On the inside youll want to screw some firing strips to the stainless flange all the way around so allow rome for that. Also where the door latch seats against the edge of the door way weld something to extend it so it is proud of the final paneling. Same with the fore hatch, just weld something for the latch to seat against that wont be buried in foam and paneling later. |
33612|33602|2016-06-28 18:03:59|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!| I live in a town of 300 and would have used coal slag (black beauty) if it was available, but it wasn't. Options were even lesser because of it being a weekend. Like I said, we all had respirators on. Shot blasted steel is available in the states, but not shot blasted and primed. I found this out after the fact. Ya'll are fortunate to have that available to you in Canada.  Yesterday I got the rest of the parts back from the blasting booth and Sadie, Andrew, and I primed all  of it. Now, all the sandblasting and priming is actually done.  I used 5.5 gallons of Wasser mc-zinc primer for one thick coat over the entire boat. My boat is a 31 footer.|
33613|33602|2016-06-28 21:27:58|opuspaul|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|I had my plates wheel abraded and primed but the coating failed after one year.   The applicator put the paint on too thin and I had rust through.   So I blasted with copper slag both inside and outside.   The inside was a nightmare....probably the worst experience in my life.  A learning experience, not to be repeated.  So if you can wheel abrade and prime your plates, do it!  If you can't, I would seriously consider blasting and priming the flat plates with a weldable primer before construction, if only to avoid doing the inside blast, later.Blasting the outside was a breeze compared to the inside.   My blast of the outside coating eventually failed.  The topsides are fine after almost 25 years but I got small blisters the size of the end of a pencil below the waterline.  The blisters were worse near the zincs.  I am not sure 100% sure but I am willing to bet it was electrolysis from being plugged in to a dock.  It may have been made worse from being slightly over-zinced which can also cause coating failure.   Over-zinced or not, I should have used an isolation transformer or galvanic isolator while plugged in to the dock.   This was another painful (and also very expensive) learning experience.After about 6 years cruising and patching blisters, I finally blasted below the waterline in Fiji using sand from the Sigatoka sand dunes.   This sand was the only thing available and obtained well above the tide line. Despite the promises that this sand was OK, I had a poor result.  The sand had contaminants like salt, it is less sharp and didn't cut into the old paint nearly as well as a proper blast abrasive.  It was a pain in the ass to use, since it needed sifting before it went into the hopper.  I would never use beach sand again unless I was backed into a corner and had no other choice.   Epoxy paint is too expensive to fool around and it is much more cost effective in the long run to do the jog right the first time.    FWIW, when I worked on  helicopters, the jet engines were considered to be in a salt environment if they operated within 1000 feet of sea level.   If I build a deck on a house in NZ, I must use SS hardware within 500 meters of the ocean.  I guess the Sigatoka sand was far too close.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigatoka_Sand_DunesI have used coarse garden and construction or beach sand for small blast jobs but washing, drying and sifting beach sand is not worth the hassle if you were blasting a whole boat.So about another 6 years later, I blasted in NZ using garnet.  It worked well and after about 4 years is a success.  In NZ, it was expensive but about the same price as other abrasives.  Garnet is supposed to be harder, heavier and cut a bit better than copper slag.   If you use less of it, it might save you a bit of money if you have to pay for it's disposal.   I have read theories that copper slag can contain trace amounts of copper and may cause some corrosion under coatings.   I can't find the link anymore and it might have been BS but it bothers me that they say not to blast aluminum using copper slag.  I do know that many many boats have successfully been blasted with copper slag and it is standard in many shipyards.  I suspect if there was a problem using copper slage it was due to poor quality control with the product.I think it would come down to price of garnet versus copper slag but given a choice between the two, I would chose garnet.http://www.barton.com/blast-abrasives/garnet-as-a-blast-abrasive/ Congratulations on finishing the paint job.  I know it is one hell of an accomplishment.Cheers, Paul  |
33614|33614|2016-07-01 22:26:39|smallboatvoyaguer|Singlke keel install|Any tips on the single keel install?Tomorrow I hope to pull it into position and tack it. Is it just the weld around it's edge that holds it there? Are there any floors added, and if so, what exactly is a "floor"? I seem to find alotof conflicting information between the plans, the book, and this forum.I built my keel of 3/16" plate, which is specified in the plans, yet I read in a post that Brent recommends 1/4"  if someone plans to use their keel as a tank. Dang, wish I'd known that last year when I ordered steel.I am sure it is not that important though. This method of building a boat seems to be overbuilt and very forgiving of tolerances because of this. -Marlin|
33615|33559|2016-07-02 18:21:13|brentswain38|Re: haulout VS grid|I'm on Hakida Gwai at the moment, anchored off Queen Charlotte , for a few more days. Drop by ,if you are in the area. Brent|
33616|33614|2016-07-02 18:26:28|brentswain38|Re: Singlke keel install|Thats not terribly important. No floors needed ,exept forthe tank font and the baffle half way along|
33617|33614|2016-07-03 21:36:45|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Singlke keel install|How far out of the hull should the single keel set?|
33618|33614|2016-07-05 17:19:39|brentswain38|Re: Singlke keel install|Just leave a couple of inches inches inside at the front and back ends.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :How far out of the hull should the single keel set?|
33619|33619|2016-07-06 14:46:45|smallboatvoyaguer|Cockpit Coaming Welding|For some reason I thought the cockpit coamings got the pipe fully welded to the top edge before installing in the cockpit, yet I began to do this and they distorted and now have a big curve to them.  Um thoughts? Should the pipe just have gotten tacked to the coaming ad not full welded?-Marlin|
33620|33619|2016-07-06 20:56:38|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit Coaming Welding|I have never fully welded them , but you have to get enough welding on to stop them from rocking, and cracking the paint. That would create a maintenance nightmare.The winch bases should reduce the distortion problem.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :For some reason I thought the cockpit coamings got the pipe fully welded to the top edge before installing in the cockpit, yet I began to do this and they distorted and now have a big curve to them.  Um thoughts? Should the pipe just have gotten tacked to the coaming ad not full welded?-Marlin|
33621|33621|2016-07-06 20:57:46|Josh Trenter|Dove IV for sale - 2002 36' Brent Swain|It is sadly time to sell my boat. Listing is below if anyone is interested. http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Brent-Swain-Custom-Steel-36-2967863/Emeryville/CA/United-States#.V3fyBzfby-J-JT|
33622|33621|2016-07-06 22:31:06|Matt Malone|Re: Dove IV for sale - 2002 36' Brent Swain|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> A beauty Josh.    Matt  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 10:09:31 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Dove IV for sale - 2002 36' Brent Swain                                                   It is sadly time to sell my boat. Listing is below if anyone is interested. http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Brent-Swain-Custom-Steel-36-2967863/Emeryville/CA/United-States#.V3fyBzfby-J-JT                                 <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1914551364 .ygrps-yiv-1914551364ExternalClass 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33623|33621|2016-07-12 10:36:40|Alex Bar|Re: Dove IV for sale - 2002 36' Brent Swain|Just a question, how does it work the furler for the main sail as shown in the picture?Thank youAlex2016-07-02 19:09 GMT+02:00 Josh Trenter vgunkid@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                It is sadly time to sell my boat. Listing is below if anyone is interested. http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Brent-Swain-Custom-Steel-36-2967863/Emeryville/CA/United-States#.V3fyBzfby-J-JT                                         |
33624|33559|2016-07-16 14:55:24|aaron riis|Re: haulout VS grid|Hey just got that now, Just got the engine running in my boat at the industrial park in Masset thinking of launching in a few weeks     On Saturday, July 2, 2016 3:21 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       I'm on Hakida Gwai at the moment, anchored off Queen Charlotte , for a few more days. Drop by ,if you are in the area. Brent                           #ygrps-yiv-247070525 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 --   #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-247070525 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-247070525 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-247070525 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-247070525 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459ad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-247070525 #ygrps-yiv-247070525yiv0873814459 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33625|33625|2016-07-16 15:58:08|smallboatvoyaguer|Bow Stem Plate| Does the stem plate (1/2" x 2" piece that gets welded on edge along the bow seam from anchor locker to keel) get fully welded or just stitch welded?-Marlin|
33626|33626|2016-07-17 14:38:41|jpronk1|Caulking for underwater use|Hello all, I was wondering what to use for caulking underwater? I know Brent uses a caulking straight from the hardware store but I don't know what type it is? Thank you, James  Sent from my iPhone|
33627|33625|2016-07-17 18:42:52|brentswain38|Re: Bow Stem Plate|Stitch welding is plenty, with 4 inch welds on the ends. Being jammed between the bow plates, it cant go sideways . It is in pure compression in an impact.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : Does the stem plate (1/2" x 2" piece that gets welded on edge along the bow seam from anchor locker to keel) get fully welded or just stitch welded?-Marlin|
33628|33559|2016-07-17 18:45:29|brentswain38|Re: haulout VS grid|I crossed Hecate Strait to the mainland 3 days ago. Light at first,I got a good westerly in the  end.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aaronriis@...> wrote :Hey just got that now, Just got the engine running in my boat at the industrial park in Masset thinking of launching in a few weeks On Saturday, July 2, 2016 3:21 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:    I'm on Hakida Gwai at the moment, anchored off Queen Charlotte , for a few more days. 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33629|33626|2016-07-17 18:48:31|brentswain38|Re: Caulking for underwater use|Urethanes work well. Construction adhesives are a bit too brittle , but the coloured ones ( other than beige)  work well.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jpronk1@...> wrote :Hello all, I was wondering what to use for caulking underwater? I know Brent uses a caulking straight from the hardware store but I don't know what type it is? Thank you, James  Sent from my iPhone|
33630|33625|2016-07-18 12:33:46|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Bow Stem Plate|How are people bending this piece?|
33631|33625|2016-07-18 16:01:17|opuspaul|Re: Bow Stem Plate|I cut mine out of some plate.   If I remember right, it was made from two or three pieces.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :How are people bending this piece?|
33632|33625|2016-07-19 15:00:42|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Bow Stem Plate|I was able to bend it with my pipe bender.|
33633|33625|2016-07-19 17:44:38|dejongralph|Re: Bow Stem Plate|It goes fast with a 5kg hammer.  Start at one end, one blow per 3 inch or so, to the other end and back until bend is complete.  Hold with one hand the flat bar and the hammer in the other, right after the head.  Put the strip on to hard steel points on the ground, about 18 inches apart. The flat bar will bend a bit with each drop of the hammer.|
33635|33559|2016-07-19 22:01:59|aaron riis|Re: haulout VS grid|nice time for it.  goin to terrace this wknd will pick up a starting battery and a few other things     On Sunday, July 17, 2016 3:45 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       I crossed Hecate Strait to the mainland 3 days ago. Light at first,I got a good westerly in the  end.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <aaronriis@...> wrote :Hey just got that now, Just got the engine running in my boat at the industrial park in Masset thinking of launching in a few weeks On Saturday, July 2, 2016 3:21 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:    I'm on Hakida Gwai at the moment, anchored off Queen Charlotte , for a few more days. 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33636|33625|2016-07-20 17:11:28|brentswain38|Re: Bow Stem Plate|I stuck mine under a big rock and bent it with a hydraulic jack. For a pattern, I bent   a piece of pipe to fit the inside of the stem.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <dejongralph@...> wrote :It goes fast with a 5kg hammer.  Start at one end, one blow per 3 inch or so, to the other end and back until bend is complete.  Hold with one hand the flat bar and the hammer in the other, right after the head.  Put the strip on to hard steel points on the ground, about 18 inches apart. The flat bar will bend a bit with each drop of the hammer.|
33637|33625|2016-07-20 17:15:24|brentswain38|Re: Bow Stem Plate|Nice photos! Good work . A longitudinal angle inside , just below the pilothouse windows, is a good idea, to keep it fair.|
33638|879|2016-07-23 11:10:17|massagemagichands|Anchor winch|I am rebuilding a 1965 Pearson Triton fiberglass boat and am very interested in Brent's manual on deck anchor winch setup.  Having all the rode on the drum will give me allot more storage below but am wondering about the weight on a fiberglass deck and if anyone knows of this being done before.  I have never welded before but neither had I ever done most of the things I have done on the boat so far so I know it can be accomplished.Any input is greatly appreciated.Thanks,Mike|
33639|879|2016-07-23 15:49:21|Stephen Wandling|Re: Anchor winch|I am putting one on my Haida 26. It does have a solid FG deck. Not all Haidas did. I will not be a blue water sailor, and will do my sailing in the Salish Sea, off the British Columbia coast. For more security, one can provide interior backing.   On Jul 23, 2016 8:10 AM, "massagemagichands@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                I am rebuilding a 1965 Pearson Triton fiberglass boat and am very interested in Brent's manual on deck anchor winch setup.  Having all the rode on the drum will give me allot more storage below but am wondering about the weight on a fiberglass deck and if anyone knows of this being done before.  I have never welded before but neither had I ever done most of the things I have done on the boat so far so I know it can be accomplished.Any input is greatly appreciated.Thanks,Mike                                         |
33640|879|2016-07-23 22:17:16|Brian Stannard|Re: Anchor winch|A lot of weight in the wrong place on such a light boat. On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Stephen Wandling swandling@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                I am putting one on my Haida 26. It does have a solid FG deck. Not all Haidas did. I will not be a blue water sailor, and will do my sailing in the Salish Sea, off the British Columbia coast. For more security, one can provide interior backing.  On Jul 23, 2016 8:10 AM, "massagemagichands@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                I am rebuilding a 1965 Pearson Triton fiberglass boat and am very interested in Brent's manual on deck anchor winch setup.  Having all the rode on the drum will give me allot more storage below but am wondering about the weight on a fiberglass deck and if anyone knows of this being done before.  I have never welded before but neither had I ever done most of the things I have done on the boat so far so I know it can be accomplished.Any input is greatly appreciated.Thanks,Mike                                                                               -- CheersBrian  |
33641|879|2016-07-24 03:46:40|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Anchor winch|I absolutely second this.Can contribute that even carrying reasonably amounts of anchor chain underdeck in the front chainlocker can ruin the behavior of a lightweight boat to quite critical extent, particularly in coastal /  confined conditions (steeper, shorter waves of local winds ontop of somewhat deflected swell residue);so, to put a sturdy welded chunk high on deck upfront permanently exacerbates this effect with no possibility to change weight distribution even intermittendly, like moving the chain from the chainlocker to the center bilge (or even the saloon floor) for example would in situations You'd desperately wish to get rid of some front weight.Cheers G_BAm 24.07.2016 um 04:17 schrieb Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats]: A lot of weight in the wrong place on such a light boat.|
33642|879|2016-07-24 14:20:33|Aaron|Re: Anchor winch|Why does it have to be Chain?   Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:46 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Anchor winch                                       I absolutely second this.Can contribute that even carrying reasonably amounts of anchor chain underdeck in the front chainlocker can ruin the behavior of a lightweight boat to quite critical extent, particularly in coastal /  confined conditions (steeper, shorter waves of local winds ontop of somewhat deflected swell residue);so, to put a sturdy welded chunk high on deck upfront permanently exacerbates this effect with no possibility to change weight distribution even intermittendly, like moving the chain from the chainlocker to the center bilge (or even the saloon floor) for example would in situations You'd desperately wish to get rid of some front weight.Cheers G_BAm 24.07.2016 um 04:17 schrieb Brian Stannard brianstannard@... 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33643|879|2016-07-24 15:19:47|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor winch|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1512237701 .ygrps-yiv-1512237701hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1512237701 .ygrps-yiv-1512237701hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> True, cable would be far lighter for the same strength, however, you will have a chain leader whether you use metal wire rope or synthetic rope.  If you have any chain then hauling in that chain leader is a job as well.   Then we could get into a long discussion about how long a leader one would want, and no doubt it would come down to where you are and what the bottom is like.   Chain is just plain more robust versus rubbing on coral heads and rocks because it does not vary much in properties after loosing a little metal.      The Brent drum on the deck always looked high to me.  Very handy, but high.   A home made chain link-sized windlass does not seem that hard, if one is going to make the lever, dog, dog wheel and spool already.  Just put it at one end of the spool and have a turning block that drops into the deck to line the chain up with the windlass.  Then the line, if any stays on the deck, and the chain goes in the hold.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 18:08:38 +0000Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor winch                                                   Why does it have to be Chain?   Aaron       <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:46 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Anchor winch                                       I absolutely second this.Can contribute that even carrying reasonably amounts of anchor chain underdeck in the front chainlocker can ruin the behavior of a lightweight boat to quite critical extent, particularly in coastal /  confined conditions (steeper, shorter waves of local winds ontop of somewhat deflected swell residue);so, to put a sturdy welded chunk high on deck upfront permanently exacerbates this effect with no possibility to change weight distribution even intermittendly, like moving the chain from the chainlocker to the center bilge (or even the saloon floor) for example would in situations You'd desperately wish to get rid of some front weight.Cheers G_BAm 24.07.2016 um 04:17 schrieb Brian Stannard brianstannard@... 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33644|879|2016-07-24 18:44:24|opuspaul|Re: Anchor winch|I really don't know why more people don't use drum with steel cable and chain.   Having a drum anchor winch is one of the best things I did on the boat.  Steel cable is a fraction the weight of chain and tidy on a drum. Rather than located right up in the bow, the weight is further back at the end of the cabin top.  I use 50 to 75 feet of chain on the end of the cable where it might rub on the bottom.   I like to be able to anchor in 100 feet without having to get out more rode.  Compare 400 feet of 3/8 inch chain and what it weighs with 350 feet of 3/8 cable and 50 feet of 3/8 inch chain.   Any chain will do, there is no need to match chain to a windlass.  I can also keep the drum windlass further back on the foredeck rather have weight right in the bow.   If I am really worried about weight when sailing, I can easily remove the chain when sailing offshore on longer trips and put it in the bilge.   You would never be able to do this easily with a pile of chain up in a bow locker. Steel cable, is also available almost anywhere, much cheaper than chain, and easily replaced with a soft fisherman's splice.  The guys who had to import chain in to Fiji to match their windlasses, paid a fortune.   And don't think that chain will last many years in the tropics either.   It won't.   I don't know what is on the bottom, but I lost most of the galvanizing off my chain in Suva harbor in about 3 weeks time.   With a drum, there are no smelly anchor locker and tangled messes and rust down below and you free up a locker for something else.I have only done is a few times but if a storm comes up it is easy to add weight by shackling a lead cannon ball to the cable. It will slide down the cable and add greatly to the spring and holding power of your anchor setup.A funny story about priorities.   I knew one of the founders of Force 10 marine.  He and his partner designed a new drum anchor winch with a SS cover.  It looked so nice, and worked so well that he got a booth at the boat show, with the idea of getting some sales and going into production.   Everybody at the show walked up and asked, "Is that a barbeque?"   Nobody was interested in a good anchor winch but everybody seemed to be interested in barbecues.  So he started making barbecues.Cheers, Paul|
33645|879|2016-07-24 20:43:16|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Anchor winch|When I look at pictures turned up by gooooogles hacking in "Pearson Triton" I do not see any space for an ondeck spill other than pretty far upfront, considering the layout with the lower part of the fo'c'sle house -where I wouldn't want placeed my spill for sure- and all.Additionally, I see quite not enough buoyancy upfront the -otherwise pretty and classy- "Pearson Triton" anyway, neither for a real chain in the locker nor for any mahussive welded spill right behind the pulpit, the only space at least halfway sturdy enough to take the load a spill does need to disperse into deck and bow when used as a spill - and not only as a storage of some kind.A spill and steel cable instead of chain and windlass really might be a very nice and desirable solution, but You do have to consider this pretty early in the construction process of lightweight constructions, and need to be careful what You add later, especially with Pearsons as some fast and cheaply built batch production boats.Just placing a spill-lookalike anywhere on the fo'c'sle of a Pearson (ANY Pearson, that is) some time later on won't do the trick at all, I'm afraid, considering my personal experiences with the structural decking of quite some Tillotson-Pearsons of the "Freedom" class.I'd be in fact afraid to loose the fo'c'sle as a whole the first time when using for real something like the mentioned spill further back ontop the raised part of the fo'c'sle housing. Lightweight fiberglass oldtimers can be some pretty fragile Divas in terms of structural cohesiveness, and You can create fatal threats to their persistence with reckless additions of such kind.well, just my 0.02 ct, anyway.Cheers G_BAm 25.07.2016 um 00:44 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:                          I really don't know why more people don't use drum with steel cable and chain.   Having a drum anchor winch is one of the best things I did on the boat.  Steel cable is a fraction the weight of chain and tidy on a drum. Rather than located right up in the bow, the weight is further back at the end of the cabin top.  I use 50 to 75 feet of chain on the end of the cable where it might rub on the bottom.   I like to be able to anchor in 100 feet without having to get out more rode.  Compare 400 feet of 3/8 inch chain and what it weighs with 350 feet of 3/8 cable and 50 feet of 3/8 inch chain.   Any chain will do, there is no need to match chain to a windlass.  I can also keep the drum windlass further back on the foredeck rather have weight right in the bow.   If I am really worried about weight when sailing, I can easily remove the chain when sailing offshore on longer trips and put it in the bilge.   You would never be able to do this easily with a pile of chain up in a bow locker. Steel cable, is also available almost anywhere, much cheaper than chain, and easily replaced with a soft fisherman's splice.  The guys who had to import chain in to Fiji to match their windlasses, paid a fortune.   And don't think that chain will last many years in the tropics either.   It won't.   I don't know what is on the bottom, but I lost most of the galvanizing off my chain in Suva harbor in about 3 weeks time.   With a drum, there are no smelly anchor locker and tangled messes and rust down below and you free up a locker for something else.I have only done is a few times but if a storm comes up it is easy to add weight by shackling a lead cannon ball to the cable. It will slide down the cable and add greatly to the spring and holding power of your anchor setup.A funny story about priorities.   I knew one of the founders of Force 10 marine.  He and his partner designed a new drum anchor winch with a SS cover.  It looked so nice, and worked so well that he got a booth at the boat show, with the idea of getting some sales and going into production.   Everybody at the show walked up and asked, "Is that a barbeque?"   Nobody was interested in a good anchor winch but everybody seemed to be interested in barbecues.  So he started making barbecues.Cheers, Paul                          |
33646|33602|2016-07-25 15:39:38|dejongralph|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|How can I protect the stainless from being sandblasted while blasting the boat inside and out.  For me a sandblasted bulwark or clamps or anything seems not wanted.....  Or is there an advantage that I not know of?  I heard that the SS is best painted with a primer with aluminum, is this the way to go or what can I do best?  Thank you,Ralph|
33647|33602|2016-07-25 21:31:11|Gordon Schnell|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|Excuse me for “butting in”….why would you want to paint the stainless steel? it looks great , it doesn’t corrode ‘ it adds a bright finish to your boat.Gord On Jul 25, 2016, at 1:39 PM, dejongralph@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:How can I protect the stainless from being sandblasted while blasting the boat inside and out.  For me a sandblasted bulwark or clamps or anything seems not wanted.....  Or is there an advantage that I not know of?  I heard that the SS is best painted with a primer with aluminum, is this the way to go or what can I do best?  Thank you,Ralph|
33648|33602|2016-07-25 23:21:26|jpronk1|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|Can't you just tape the stainless with duct or masking tape?  James  Sent from my iPhone|
33649|33602|2016-07-26 00:34:09|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-749163721 .ygrps-yiv-749163721hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-749163721 .ygrps-yiv-749163721hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> My understanding of stainless is, it is stain-less (not stain-free) when it is exposed to air.  If you cover it, you change the chemistry.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:39:33 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!                                                   How can I protect the stainless from being sandblasted while blasting the boat inside and out.  For me a sandblasted bulwark or clamps or anything seems not wanted.....  Or is there an advantage that I not know of?  I heard that the SS is best painted with a primer with aluminum, is this the way to go or what can I do best?  Thank you,Ralph                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-749163721 .ygrps-yiv-749163721ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-749163721ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-749163721 .ygrps-yiv-749163721ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-749163721ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-749163721 .ygrps-yiv-749163721ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-749163721ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-749163721ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-749163721 .ygrps-yiv-749163721ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-749163721ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-749163721ecxads { 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33650|33602|2016-07-26 01:29:32|opuspaul|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|If it is 316 stainless, you have nothing to worry about.     A couple of layers of duct tape will protect it when you blast it as long as you don't dwell on any one spot.  Leave an overlap of paint on any SS to mild steel joint.|
33651|33602|2016-07-27 14:37:19|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|Stainless pipe can be protected by putting split plastic pipe over it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <dejongralph@...> wrote :How can I protect the stainless from being sandblasted while blasting the boat inside and out.  For me a sandblasted bulwark or clamps or anything seems not wanted.....  Or is there an advantage that I not know of?  I heard that the SS is best painted with a primer with aluminum, is this the way to go or what can I do best? Thank you,Ralph|
33652|33602|2016-07-28 10:34:49|haidan|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|Split some cheap poly irragation line and put it over the bulwarks. Painting stainless is fine though it is hard to stick the paint to. It does not however make it rust, its painted - where it chips it just doesnt rust.|
33653|33602|2016-07-28 17:22:51|dejongralph|Re: Sandblasted! It's f**cking done. Woot!|I split some PVC pipe to cover the bulwark and it works super, it is the solution I was looking for.  I bought duct tape for the accessories.  The painting was an option for when there was no way to proper cover the SS.  But now painting will not be necessary. Thanks for the input.  |
33654|33654|2016-07-30 18:59:51|jaybeecherbay|DIY spray foam|has anyone spray foamed there own boat with a commercial kit such as:Fast Rise 600 Spray Foam Kit - Tiger Foam                             Fast Rise 600 Spray Foam Kit - Tiger Foam   We have Spray Foam in Canada. You can buy Fast Rise spray foam insulation kits at our online store. Diy with our polyurethane spray insulation.              View on tigerfoam.ca          Preview by Yahoo            I am exploring this option,  anyone know off hand how much square footage the interior of a BS 36'  ?|
33655|33654|2016-07-30 19:47:50|Alan Boucher|Re: DIY spray foam|We used a similar product to stablize the deck in the inaccessible areas of a fiberglass hull that was used as a boat club launch.  This  was only a small part of the work done to maintain CG approval.  In any case, make sure that the foam is the rigid closed cell type.  Otherwise you'll just be putting a large sponge in the boat. On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                has anyone spray foamed there own boat with a commercial kit such as:Fast Rise 600 Spray Foam Kit - Tiger Foam                             Fast Rise 600 Spray Foam Kit - Tiger Foam   We have Spray Foam in Canada. You can buy Fast Rise spray foam insulation kits at our online store. Diy with our polyurethane spray insulation.              View on tigerfoam.ca          Preview by Yahoo            I am exploring this option,  anyone know off hand how much square footage the interior of a BS 36'  ?                                       -- Al Boucher  |
33656|33654|2016-07-31 11:00:29|haidan|Re: DIY spray foam|Unless theyve dropped the price of that stuff in the two small propane type bottles I wouldnt even entertain the idea of doing the whole boat with a tigerfoam kit . Youd need a dozen of them and the foam isnt as dense as the stuff from the guys that come in a cube van to spray it. It should cost about two grand to have a 36 spray foamed. I calculated for paint and foam 36'x8' x 3 square feet inside the boat roughly, say 800 or so that gets foamed.|
33657|33654|2016-07-31 16:08:00|jaybeecherbay|Re: DIY spray foam|thanks, and what company did you get to do yours?|
33658|33654|2016-08-01 13:00:41|haidan|Re: DIY spray foam|West coast spray foam or pacific sprayfoam, something lile that out of campbell river I think theyre the only ones in the yellow pages up there|
33659|32080|2016-08-03 17:40:22|jaybeecherbay|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|Brent, or others,  what about the Tabernacle, the keel framing, and the keel tank tops,  do these need foamed as well?|
33660|32080|2016-08-03 18:21:15|brentswain38|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|Yes,  all but the tank top.For that, I leave the floor a single lifting panel and throw a sheet of styrofoam on top of it. That makes it easy to change if it gets gungy Any framing poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :Brent, or others,  what about the Tabernacle, the keel framing, and the keel tank tops,  do these need foamed as well?|
33661|32080|2016-08-03 20:30:37|jaybeecherbay|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|roger that, thanks Brent.  |
33662|32080|2016-08-05 15:57:19|brentswain38|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|DON"T foam the bilge sump! Water needs a low place to drain out of the foam. Some steel seine boats here were foamed right down to the centreline and they soaked up water from the low point in the bilge, like a wick, and rusted her out behind the foam.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :roger that, thanks Brent.  |
33663|32080|2016-08-09 20:35:41|jaybeecherbay|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|i am not foaming the bilge,  just up to the last stringer.  how does the water drain if the foam ends at the bottom stringer.  with all the epoxy sealing the angle iron to the plate with no limber holes, how does it still drain?  i am not worried about it, just curious.|
33664|32080|2016-08-10 18:22:37|brentswain38|Re: Spray foam: carving, tools and techniques|It cant pile up above the height of the bottom stringer, altho drilling a hole in it at its low point  may be a good idea.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :i am not foaming the bilge,  just up to the last stringer.  how does the water drain if the foam ends at the bottom stringer.  with all the epoxy sealing the angle iron to the plate with no limber holes, how does it still drain?  i am not worried about it, just curious.|
33665|33665|2016-08-12 15:39:19|jonhackett1958|Brent Swain 36 for sale - repost|   	 	 	 	#ygrps-yiv-651372967 P {margin-bottom:0.08in;}#ygrps-yiv-651372967 A:link {}    For Sale - Brent Swain 36' bilge keel.  Located in Seattle, WA USA  Launched in September 2005.  Pilot house  Servo rudder self steering with interior station and e-tiller pilot, rigged to linkage in pilot house.  On deck SS anchor winch/spool  SS tabernacle mast base  Reversible forward hatch  SS cabin top/pilot house grab rails  Though hulls are 316 SS with SS ball valves.  Twin 20lb bottle propane locker aft.     Exterior coatings above the waterline:  Two coats Ameron 302h  Two coats Ameron 235,  One coat Ameron two part polyurethane  Three coats Brightside one part polyurethane     Exterior coatings below the waterline:  Two coats Ameron 302h  One coat Ameron 235  Four coats coal tar epoxy  Several alternating coats of bottom paint (red, blue and black)     2-1/2” spray foamed interior over 3 coats of Ameron 235  All interior wood bulkheads, floors, cabinetry, furring, wall and ceiling coverings are epoxy impregnated mahogany marine grade wood and plywoods.  Heavy-duty bitts, railings, bow rollers, companionway door, hawsers and all the rest that goes with a Brent Swain boat.     Sails     All made in 2006 by North Sails of Seattle, WA  Main – Triple reef, heavy (9oz), loose foot  Genoa – 130% - set up for roller furling  Jib – 90% - also set up for roller furling (rigged, but never sailed)  Storm sail – 12oz. hank on for inner stay (rigged, but never sailed)  All come with North Sail bags     Rig     Mast – schedule 10 corten steel  All fittings and friction areas are 304/316 stainless alloys  Stainless shoe on mast base  Dual downwind running poles – super easy/safe  Aluminum roller furling – rigged with 3/8” roller line and large drum for easy furling  Mast steps – SS  Cleats, spreaders, winch pads, gooseneck, pad eyes , rub points etc. - All SS  Masthead wiring is all external and tastefully routed  Wire rope is 7/19 stainless where friction is an issue, (forestay, fore and aft shrouds).  Double backstays and main shrouds are 1X7 – 5/16” HT galvanized with 1/2” galvanized turnbuckles throughout.  Boom is a custom aluminum section from a 20 meter racing sloop. (cut down of course)  Reefing lines are easily accessible near the gooseneck  Lazy jacks rigged  Included - 5/16” swaging tool for nicopress sleeves     Engine  Isuzu 4LC1 40hp diesel >600hrs – New in crate from Lassen Marine 2005  Skeg cooled  50 gallon aluminum fuel tank with sight glass  Triple fuel filter arrangement (switchable X2)  All stainless dry exhaust  Extra heavy ZF reverse gear with cooler  Sump pump oil change arrangement  Easily accessible, serviceable and removable.  Aquamet 1-1/4” shaft  Bronze 3 blade prop  Dripless shaftseal  Shaft tube is 2-1/2”OD X 1/4” wall SS tube     Electrical     All wiring is marine grade tinned and gauged accordingly.  Isolation transformer Charles 3000 watt  Battery Charger – Trace 20amp/1500watt charger/inverter  Two Siemens 85 watt solar panels mounted aft on an arch  Trace charging regulator for Panels  Air-Marine 403 wind generator - mounted aft  Two Dyno 400ah 6v batteries  One Dyno 12v group 30 starting battery  Too many details to list  All wiring terminals led to panel in pilot house.  All grounds are home-run to panel.     Electronics all new in 2006     Furuno 16mi Radar  Icom VHF  Garmin depth/fishfinder (transom mounted)  Garmin GPSmap 76 X2  Navico TP300 tillerpilot     Galley/Cabin/Head     Force 10 - 3 burner stove with oven  120 gallons in three Vetus bladder tanks - aft, mid and fore. Intake valves for each and a manifold under the galley sink for switching water source.  Cold pressure water, cold hand-pump water and raw water foot-pump.  Dual water filter setup for questionable water sources.  High efficient small wood stove with door glass and SS heat-shield surround. (4 hrs burn time per load).  Icebox - aluminum with 5-6” foam insulation  Space allotted for dorm fridge. (my current one has worked for 8 years).  Plenty of cabinet space for dishes, pots, pans, pantry items and utensils.  Salon table drops to make a double bed amidships.  Forward berth is 8' long. Sail/bedding storage beneath  Jabsco head with three-way waste routing. (to 26 gal. tank or through-hull, or manual pump-out, tank to through-hull.  There are many more details that altogether, make for a sensible, cozy and safe boat.  I have a lot of spares and goodies that go with her, including a zodiac 8' dinghy and a 9' Paratek Sea Anchor w/ 3/8” chain and 5/8” nylon three strand.     Asking $36K     All reasonable offers considered     Please feel free to contact me at jonhackett@...     Please include your contact info.    |
33666|33654|2016-08-13 19:28:20|aaron riis|Re: DIY spray foam|I used one of the tiger foam kits for my 26 as it was the only option on hg it was 600 bd ft not enough for a 36     On Monday, August 1, 2016 10:00 AM, "haidan haidan@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       West coast spray foam or pacific sprayfoam, something lile that out of campbell river I think theyre the only ones in the yellow pages up there                           #ygrps-yiv-1431257485 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112 --   #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1431257485 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1431257485 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1431257485 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112 #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1431257485yiv5120050112ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  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33667|33667|2016-08-24 12:59:47|smallboatvoyaguer|Bolt On anchor winch?|I've seen some people have made it so their anchor winch can bolt onto tabs. What are peoples thoughts on this? Good idea, bad, pros or cons?|
33668|33668|2016-08-24 13:27:54|smallboatvoyaguer|Longitudinal stringers|I've installed the rest  of my longitudinal stringers (from the chine to  the keel). they are only tacked in place at the moment.They are not "perfectly spaced", and my top ones drop down a bit toward the bow.  This is because I installed them afterwards and long story short they are 1 1/4" instead of the 1" angle which was called for. Both those factors made them incredibly difficult to get into place. Is the imperfect spacing a big deal? And in some spots the hull plate is not perfectly flat against the angle (about a 1/8" gap). Is that a big deal? Seems as though it could almost be a good thing as far as drainage goes. I am sure I could make some dogs and wedges to pull them together more.I'm just curious about peoples thoughts.I got the keel fully welded in recently. I need to drill a hole in the bottom for drainage though.|
33669|33667|2016-08-24 18:33:21|brentswain38|Re: Bolt On anchor winch?|Neither here nor there. Tabs let the builder of a new boat build his anchor winch later, if desired, without  burning paint.It also lets you remove it for alterations if ever needed---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :I've seen some people have made it so their anchor winch can bolt onto tabs. What are peoples thoughts on this? Good idea, bad, pros or cons?|
33670|33668|2016-08-25 18:36:49|haidan|Re: Longitudinal stringers|Well if you ever want to turn the thing into a nulcear power reactor that'll clearly not hold up otherwise it'll be fine. The spacings pretty irrelevant near the ends of the hull where the angles start to curl along, handy to have for the interior to anchor to. The loads on them I imagine would be bending loads in between the welds as the hull flexes so as long as its stich welded every six inches or so in should do its job regardless of whether its touching all the way along.|
33671|33671|2016-08-29 15:55:13|dejongralph|Exhaust|I'm welding the end of the exhaust to the stern but I don't know how the rest is hed up.  It is a 2" pipe, do I weld it to the foot well or connect it otherwise?|
33672|33671|2016-08-29 17:50:42|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Exhaust|You can weld both ends but you need to insert sections of exhaust flex tube near to each weld site to accommodate the expansion/contraction of the exhaust systemSent from my iPhone  On Aug 29, 2016, at 1:55 PM, dejongralph@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
     
       
       
       I'm welding the end of the exhaust to the stern but I don't know how the rest is hed up.  It is a 2" pipe, do I weld it to the foot well or connect it otherwise?
 
     
      
 
     
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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33673|33671|2016-08-29 18:17:22|brentswain38|Re: Exhaust|I usually weld one 3/8th inch ss rod from the pipe to the bottom corner of the footwell, and another to the top  corner of the footwell.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <dejongralph@...> wrote :I'm welding the end of the exhaust to the stern but I don't know how the rest is hed up.  It is a 2" pipe, do I weld it to the foot well or connect it otherwise?|
33674|33671|2016-08-29 18:26:19|brentswain38|Re: Exhaust|I have only put flex pipe on the engine end.I once asked my father , a steam engineer for most of his life, how much expansion would you get at 1100 degrees, in an exhaust  pipe.He said "1/4 inch in 15 feet" On the length and temperatures you get on a diesel in a sailboat , it is not worth  worrying about. My last  exhaust pipe just broke, after 20 years . It had no flex pipe. In his  book  "Marine Conversions" Nigel Warrens said if the engine is solid mounted ,and the exhaust does enough  corners and turns, no flex pipe is needed.I now have it, to avoid metal fatigue from vibration.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gschnell@...> wrote :You can weld both ends but you need to insert sections of exhaust flex tube near to each weld site to accommodate the expansion/contraction of the exhaust systemSent from my iPhone   On Aug 29, 2016, at 1:55 PM, dejongralph@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I'm welding the end of the exhaust to the stern but I don't know how the rest is hed up.  It is a 2" pipe, do I weld it to the foot well or connect it otherwise?|
33675|33671|2016-08-30 16:41:07|dejongralph|Re: Exhaust|Done, thank you|
33676|33676|2016-09-10 12:39:35|smallboatvoyaguer|Rudder Pintles|Are 1" ss rudder pintles burly enough for the 31 footer? I also have some 1.5" ss rod I could use, but that just seems massive.|
33677|33676|2016-09-10 13:44:07|Matt Malone|Re: Rudder Pintles|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> I am very eager to hear the answers to this as I am planning a pintle-mounted, transom-hung rudder in addition to my keel-hung rudder that the boat was built with.   My reasons are redundancy, and the ease of having self-steering without power consumption.   I have seen emergency rudders on yachts before, mounted on massive aluminium tubes, 2" in diameter if I recall, with heavy brackets on the transom.   It seemed over-kill at the time.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 09:39:34 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Rudder Pintles                                                   Are 1" ss rudder pintles burly enough for the 31 footer? I also have some 1.5" ss rod I could use, but that just seems massive.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2133270174ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-2133270174 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33678|33676|2016-09-10 17:58:24|brentswain38|Re: Rudder Pintles|Yes but 1.5 wouldn't hurt anything.I use plastic hose barbs for bushings .  A 1 1/4 inch one my be right for a 1 inch shaft size. For the 36, I put a 1 1/2 inch hose barb in a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe and the ID of the hose barb is perfect for a 1 1/4 inch shaft. No machining necessary.They cost  under  a dollar, are available and the same everywhere and last forever---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Are 1" ss rudder pintles burly enough for the 31 footer? I also have some 1.5" ss rod I could use, but that just seems massive.|
33679|33676|2016-09-11 10:56:10|Matt Malone|Re: Rudder Pintles|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Schedule 40 pipe vs. solid stainless round bar -- big difference.   Brent is talking about both the pintle and gudgeon.   I recently made a trailer using the rear springs of a pickup.  The rubber sleeves in the end of the spring loops were damaged so I replaced them with nested plastic electrical conduit pipe with schedule 4 steel pipe liners, very similar to Brent's hose barbs, however the final contact in my case was schedule 40 steel pipe on a grade 8 bolt.   It worked fine, carrying about 1000 pounds non-reversing load spread over 4 assemblies.   The forces on a rudder are a reversing load generally spread over 2 assemblies.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 14:58:24 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder Pintles                                                   Yes but 1.5 wouldn't hurt anything.I use plastic hose barbs for bushings .  A 1 1/4 inch one my be right for a 1 inch shaft size. For the 36, I put a 1 1/2 inch hose barb in a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe and the ID of the hose barb is perfect for a 1 1/4 inch shaft. No machining necessary.They cost  under  a dollar, are available and the same everywhere and last forever---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Are 1" ss rudder pintles burly enough for the 31 footer? I also have some 1.5" ss rod I could use, but that just seems massive.                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1059670462ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1059670462 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33680|33680|2016-09-13 09:31:06|smallboatvoyaguer|Wasser Thinner|When I purchased my Wasser products I didn't get thinner, as I didn't realize I needed it. Now it is obvious.Wasser charges a lot of money for shipping as they only do three day shipping.I am wondering if anyone has used a different brand of thinner than wasser, with wasser primer or mc- coal tar, and what were their results were. Basically,I don't want to fork out the money for something as simple as thinner unless I have too.-Thanks, Mar|
33681|33680|2016-09-13 10:12:36|Matt Malone|Re: Wasser Thinner|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Very often the MSDS safety datasheet will give you a really big clue as to what the thinner is.   Sometimes it will tell you exactly what the thinner is, if you read it carefully.   I ran into one thinner problem, and the MSDS told me it was 50-75% one common solvent and 50-75% another common solvent.  Logic tells you it could only be a 50/50 mix of the two solvents !    In this case, an internet search finds the MSDS for Wasser thinner accounts for at least 90% of its contents as two common solvents.   One might guess there is nothing else in it and split the last 10% between them.   Unless there is something entire unhazardous like water in it, you could not be wrong by more than 5%.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 06:31:04 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Wasser Thinner                                                   When I purchased my Wasser products I didn't get thinner, as I didn't realize I needed it. Now it is obvious.Wasser charges a lot of money for shipping as they only do three day shipping.I am wondering if anyone has used a different brand of thinner than wasser, with wasser primer or mc- coal tar, and what were their results were. Basically,I don't want to fork out the money for something as simple as thinner unless I have too.-Thanks, Mar                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1574937047 .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1574937047ecxad p { }  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33682|33680|2016-09-13 13:33:31|Hannu Venermo|Re: Wasser Thinner|I don´t have any specifics.. but this is one of the very few/only cases where I would only use the  branded premium stuff. Due to: Chemical goop in critical app, and vast problems/expense later, if it  does not work.  Ie my general opinion, fwiw, maybe 0.01$, is that any, re: any,  industrial marine paint aka hard duty paint / system is more than good  enough. And cheap. But if you do buy a branded premium consumer product for critical use ie  with major consequences later, then don´t skimp on the details.  Thinner =/= thinner, and paint =/= paint.  I mix/match paints/thinners quite a lot in industrial use, trying to  find a good combo. I make industrial cnc machine parts. In my case, any fail, 2 so far, is relatively easy to fix, and no major  losses (1/2 day of work, and 50€. Not major).  At the moment my  preference is on dissolvent based goops, with branded  thinners. I do know that branded paints hammerite et al don´t like some of the  generic dissolvents. And there are a lot of varieties of these.  My experiences are negative, in response to Your question.  Some of the cheap house brands are just about as good as the top shelf  very expensive stuff. The hard part is knowing which, and I don´t.   On 13/09/2016 15:31, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote: > I am wondering if anyone has used a different brand of thinner than  > wasser, with wasser primer or mc- coal tar, and what were their  > results were. Basically,I don't want to fork out the money for  > something as simple as thinner unless I have too. > > -Thanks, >  Mar  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33683|33680|2016-09-13 15:01:59|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Wasser Thinner|So I could basically do a 50/50 mix of the solvents (methyl isobutyl ketone/ xylene) and prob have fine results?|
33684|33680|2016-09-13 15:32:15|Matt Malone|Re: Wasser Thinner|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1342271205 .ygrps-yiv-1342271205hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1342271205 .ygrps-yiv-1342271205hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Hello Mar,I am not telling you what to do.  These are dangerous chemicals.  You have spent a lot of money and I am not certain what will happen with any mixture, even with the thinner purchased from Wasser.   The read the MSDS document from this page:http://www.wassercoatings.com/specialty.htmlfor MC-Thinner.  In part 3 of the MSDS, it gave the hazardous ingredients and their fractions.  50/50 is not admitted by that MSDS.   I was giving an example of a different thinner problem I had where the MSDS and logic did tell me exactly what it was.  I have since seen the other MSDS for MC-Thinner 100 and see that it is different in part 3, and it is more difficult to guess what the correct mixture is.   I just wanted to point out the option of reading the MSDS.  You will at least know what dangerous chemicals are not in Wasser thinner, and therefore what not to use, if you were inclined to experiment with a small quantity.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:01:59 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wasser Thinner                                                   So I could basically do a 50/50 mix of the solvents (methyl isobutyl ketone/ xylene) and prob have fine results?                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1342271205 .ygrps-yiv-1342271205ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1342271205ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1342271205 .ygrps-yiv-1342271205ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1342271205ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1342271205 .ygrps-yiv-1342271205ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1342271205ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1342271205ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  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33685|33685|2016-09-14 12:18:05|smallboatvoyaguer|Cross Piece in single keel| What thickness of plate should I make the cross piece (the back of the ballast) that goes in the keel on the single keel Swain? I am building the 31.Thanks, Marlin|
33686|33686|2016-09-14 12:19:31|smallboatvoyaguer|SS Bow Stem Rod thing| The 1/2" SS rod that gets attached to the outside of the bow running along it's length... Should that be fully welded or just stitch welded? Seems to me fully welding would introduce a lot of distortion.-Thanks, Mar|
33687|33446|2016-09-14 19:46:34|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: stick welding stainless|Well I finally figured out my stainless welding dilemma.I simply switched brands and that made ll the difference.I went from https://www.castolin.com/en-US/product/eutectrode-308l-16  toLincoln Excalibur 309's. I cant fuck up the weld if I try. |
33688|33676|2016-09-14 19:47:05|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Rudder Pintles|I went with the 1.5 inch ss rod pintles.|
33689|33446|2016-09-14 20:22:25|opuspaul|Re: stick welding stainless|Why were you using 308s?  My understanding is that it is for welding 304 SS which I find rusts in a salty environment.   Some people use 309 for joining SS to mild steel.  I have always used 316 rods on everything SS and never had a problem.http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/filler-metal-detail.aspx  	<strong>When should I use 308L, 309L or 316L filler metal?<br><br></strong>  308L (including ER308LSi) is predominately used on austenitic  stainless steels, such as types 301, 302, 304, 305 and cast alloys CF-8  and CF-3. For high temperature applications such as in the electrical  power industry, the high carbon 308H electrode provides better creep  resistance than does 308L. 316L (including ER316LSi) filler metal should be used with 316L and  316 base metals. CF-8M and CF-3M are the cast equivalents of 316 and  316L, respectively. Use 309L (including ER309LSi) when joining mild steel or low alloy  steel to stainless steels, for joining dissimilar stainless steels such  as 409 to itself or to 304L stainless, as well as for joining 309 base  metal. CG-12 is the cast equivalent of 309. Some 308L applications may  be substituted with 309L filler metal, but 316L or 316 applications  generally require molybdenum and 309L contains no molybdenum. Type 347 stainless steel filler metal is ideal for 347 and 321 base  materials because it matches these stabilized grades. CF-8C is the cast  equivalent of 347. Type 347 filler metal is also suitable most 308L  filler metal applications. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Well I finally figured out my stainless welding dilemma.I simply switched brands and that made ll the difference.I went from https://www.castolin.com/en-US/product/eutectrode-308l-16  toLincoln Excalibur 309's. I cant fuck up the weld if I try. |
33690|33446|2016-09-15 15:39:53|brentswain38|Re: stick welding stainless|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :We have had no problems with 308s. 304 works OK above the waterline ,but everything below the waterline should be 316Why were you using 308s?  My understanding is that it is for welding 304 SS which I find rusts in a salty environment.   Some people use 309 for joining SS to mild steel.  I have always used 316 rods on everything SS and never had a problem.http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/filler-metal-detail.aspx  <b>When should I use 308L, 309L or 316L filler metal?<br><br></b>308L (including ER308LSi) is predominately used on austenitic stainless steels, such as types 301, 302, 304, 305 and cast alloys CF-8 and CF-3. For high temperature applications such as in the electrical power industry, the high carbon 308H electrode provides better creep resistance than does 308L.316L (including ER316LSi) filler metal should be used with 316L and 316 base metals. CF-8M and CF-3M are the cast equivalents of 316 and 316L, respectively.Use 309L (including ER309LSi) when joining mild steel or low alloy steel to stainless steels, for joining dissimilar stainless steels such as 409 to itself or to 304L stainless, as well as for joining 309 base metal. CG-12 is the cast equivalent of 309. Some 308L applications may be substituted with 309L filler metal, but 316L or 316 applications generally require molybdenum and 309L contains no molybdenum.Type 347 stainless steel filler metal is ideal for 347 and 321 base materials because it matches these stabilized grades. CF-8C is the cast equivalent of 347. Type 347 filler metal is also suitable most 308L filler metal applications.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Well I finally figured out my stainless welding dilemma.I simply switched brands and that made ll the difference.I went from https://www.castolin.com/en-US/product/eutectrode-308l-16  toLincoln Excalibur 309's. I cant fuck up the weld if I try. |
33691|33686|2016-09-15 15:47:01|brentswain38|Re: SS Bow Stem Rod thing|That should be fully welded. If it rocks, the paint will chip, and corrosion will form behind  it. You want it totally sealed. It won't cause any  distortion.It should run to slightly below the waterline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : The 1/2" SS rod that gets attached to the outside of the bow running along it's length... Should that be fully welded or just stitch welded? Seems to me fully welding would introduce a lot of distortion.-Thanks, Mar|
33692|33446|2016-09-15 16:52:28|opuspaul|Re: stick welding stainless|It never happened in BC but when I went offshore and spent a lot of time in warmer and much saltier climates I had constant rust bloom on anything made from 304 SS.   I made a pole fitting out of 304 SS and after being in the tropics for 8 years straight, it had corroded so badly that I needed to make a new one.    Anything I made from 316 SS still looks as good as new.|
33693|33446|2016-09-15 17:29:48|opuspaul|Re: stick welding stainless|Further to this....I am now seeing hardware made from 302 SS in our local stores here in NZ.   It rusts in no time and is absolute crap!  You really need to read the fine print to see what you are getting.  The galvanized screws and bolts last far longer.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :It never happened in BC but when I went offshore and spent a lot of time in warmer and much saltier climates I had constant rust bloom on anything made from 304 SS.   I made a pole fitting out of 304 SS and after being in the tropics for 8 years straight, it had corroded so badly that I needed to make a new one.    Anything I made from 316 SS still looks as good as new.|
33694|33446|2016-09-16 13:04:46|Matt Malone|Design of Hatches and Ports|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-273373422 .ygrps-yiv-273373422hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-273373422 .ygrps-yiv-273373422hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> "A 12-metre (39 ft) wave in the usual "linear" model would have a breaking force of 6 metric tons per square metre [t/m2] (8.5 psi). Although modern ships are designed to tolerate a breaking wave of 15 t/m2 (21 psi), a rogue wave can dwarf both of these figures with a breaking force of 100 t/m2 (140 psi)."Think about tons per square meter on the side of the boat, and pounds per square inch on ports and hatches.   That was from wikipedia "Rogue Waves".   This may be the force of a breaking wave against a stationary object, but for a small boat, I am thinking that being lofted by a breaking wave and tossed into more-still water would be an effect to be considered too.  "Butane is generally going to show a much lower   vapor pressure in the container than propane. But you can see from the  table that as outdoor temperature varies between zero and 80 deg. F.,   the pressure of LP gas in the outdoor tank varies widely, from about  28 psi to as much as 140 psi."That was from http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Propane_Tank_Gas_Pressures.phpWhy do I post about propane pressure?  Because FYI, there are plenty of steel propane tanks of different sizes, the larger they are, the thicker they have to be.   Tanks about the size of a small yacht are about 1/2" thick.   That does not mean a thinner boat is unsafe, there is a lot of internal structure that incidentally or intentionally both stiffens and strengthens a boat, even with an origami.      In any case, when considering the large saloon windows and the hatch on my existing boat, I will be calculating their burst pressure and thinking about reinforcing or reducing their size.  The following is an on-line calculation program:    http://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_mechanics/plates/theory.cfmThe engineer's toolbox will give you numbers for stiffness/Young's Modulus.  I think this calculation's greatest use is to demonstrate how much stiffer or stronger a large  saloon window is if it is divided in half, or in seeing the advantage of  selecting 1" thick window material over 3/4".   Careful to get  the numbers in the input form right the first time, I think it only gives you two free  calculations before it asks for membership.  One might appreciate the effect of changing one dimension by running one calculation for the approximate size of your saloon window, and then a second calculation with something of the same height, but half the length or double the thickness and comparing the two results.  If you want to test the effect of other changes and have run out of free trials, try it on a different day, after clearing the web cache.   Going back to making a boat structure stronger, similarly, dividing up the dimensions with interior stiffenings is one way.  This is not necessary a complete bulkhead but perhaps flanges that one would attach interior finishing to, or integrated tankage.  Do not add columns thinking this is good.  Go back to tons per square meter.... will your column hold tons?  Will it punch through the skin of the boat if it ever carries its maximum load?  In fibreglass boats, the sides of cabinets etc are glassed into the hull and provide stiffness.   Why not make some interior structure of a steel boat out of steel that is tacked to the hull?  The factors of stiffness and strength gained are the same as in a fibreglass boat.  Since a steel boat is so much stronger to begin with, is this a reason not to bother ?   Or even more reason to gain the double or quadruple effect, with little effort?  Yes of course, in any extreme incident that is likely to deform the boat, these reinforcements would become visible as ripples in the outer skin, like an old freighter or the hungry dog look (so skinny, its ribs show) that Brent refers to.  I am not afraid to see these ribs as ripples, if their strength is ever called upon.Still, priority #1 has to be the large saloon window and proper hatches.  Matt 		 	   		    |
33695|33695|2016-09-17 07:42:51|smallboatvoyaguer|Ballast Middle keel plate|What thickness of plate should I make the cross piece (the back of the ballast) that goes in the keel on the single keel Swain? I am building the 31.Thanks, Marlin|
33697|33697|2016-09-19 11:20:52|Matt Malone|Transporting a Mast|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1507776594 .ygrps-yiv-1507776594hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1507776594 .ygrps-yiv-1507776594hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Marlin, your project looks amazing.  I have followed a few and have been enticed by the idea of building a steel boat.   I have a boat, a classic-plastic solid fibreglass.  I look at the work it needs, and listen to those who speak of the reasons to prefer a steel boat.   The idea that, at the heart of it, if my boat rubs on a rock, even once, 99% chance, I am looking at a deep scar I need to repair.   My boat has lots of fibreglass to spare so, I am not so concerned about it being compromised quickly, it is just the work to get it back to the way it was.   With a steel boat, it is more likely just paint, maybe a dent that is no urgent problem.   There is no repair I can do on a fibreglass boat that is not at least as easy on a steel boat because in the limit, I can patch a steel boat with fibreglass.   With a steel boat I can weld, drill, screw, through-bolt, rivet, even stick a magnet to it.   Yes, there is the constant battle with rust but with a bit more, and more prompt, attention to coatings, a steel boat can be just as eternal as my plastic one.   While I have toyed with the idea of building from scratch in steel, the boat I have is enough of a project for me.   I have no doubt that when your boat is complete, it will be much better than mine in many ways.I have looked at your entire photo diary of building Marlin.  In all of the photo diaries of building, I have seen a lot of details that are different.  Clearly, there is a lot of room for personalization, but also it seems a lot of room for indecision.   All of the questions and answers in the mailing list are very informative.  For instance, I know nothing about welding stainless, and I have been following your thread closely.   The only stainless I have ever welded was a small fitting, and I used a rod made for steel and afterward carefully covered the entire part in a clear marine enamel paint.   In the last few weeks, I have been looking at stainless and rods, decided 316L would be my first choice but then found that a box of welding rod is $100.  Whatever I might consider it for, the bought-solution in stainless would have to be pretty expensive to consider stainless fabrication myself.   That is before considering my level of welding skill.   You are overcoming these challenges -- the satisfaction you must be getting from this project is enviable.One of your photos raised a question Marlin.  I see a photo of a mast strapped to the side of a pickup -- with a lot of hardware on it, mast steps and everything --  good score!   My question is about this method of transportation.  Who long was this mast? You said it was moved 2 miles?   How fast was the truck able to drive?As a general question to everyone else, if one wanted to transport a mast on public roads, how would you do it?    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 14:15:11 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stick welding stainless                                                   I was using 308's because when I started this project I knew nothing about welding, period. And, in Brent's book he says "I have had no problems with the 300 series of stainless rods..." and so I just used whatever was at the steel yard, which was 308's. I bought two boxes and then struggled through them for the next year and a half. There have been many, many things that I have had to re-do or just live with having done "wrong" throughout my project. Many things weren't in the book, on the DVD, or on this forum (or sometimes I stumble upon imformation I needed months ago while searching for something different), or on any other website showing how Brent's boats are constructed. I think it is unfortunate that one of the best documented builds (MOM) charges to have the bulk of the photos available,considering that it doesn't look like they are hurting for cash. Anyways, I've been making a list of these things and slowly adding them to my blog site as they come up cuz god damn it's been frustrating at times. https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/build-tips/ Phukin @ schitt man,   Marlin                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1507776594 .ygrps-yiv-1507776594ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1507776594ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1507776594 .ygrps-yiv-1507776594ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1507776594ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1507776594 .ygrps-yiv-1507776594ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1507776594ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1507776594ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1507776594 .ygrps-yiv-1507776594ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1507776594ecxygrp-mkp 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33698|33446|2016-09-19 15:21:29|brentswain38|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|A small boat at  sea is far from being the stationary object that a super tanker  would be. It would simply be moved, rather than damaged by such a sea. ( google " Law of mechanical similitude")I once sailed from BC to New Zealand in my first boat, with the  outboard well plugged by a 1.25 sq ft piece of plywood, held in by a couple of 2 inch nails, encountering some severe weather along the way.It never moved. I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact. Shape makes a huge difference, far more effective in small sailing craft than framing( which only stiffens right  next to the frame, increasing the  chance of holing, in the case of hitting a sharp rock, a factor that scantling rules either under estimate, or miss altogether.)Chines , decks, tanks and  and  centrelines are the structural equivalent of fully welded longitudinal steel bulkheads.  That is  the reason pressure tanks are round instead of square.Steel interior parts would make a boat super heavy, condensation plagued , and would be a maintenance problem.Numbers jugglers love thin  plate and lots of framing. That makes the numbers  look good. Experienced metal boat cruisers prefer  thicker plate and less framing. That reflects the reality of owning a steel boat over time. A plastic shop worker once told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of glass, for a given thickness..---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-318414993 #ygrps-yiv-318414993ygrps-yiv-950901765 .ygrps-yiv-318414993ygrps-yiv-950901765hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-318414993 #ygrps-yiv-318414993ygrps-yiv-950901765 .ygrps-yiv-318414993ygrps-yiv-950901765hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}"A 12-metre (39 ft) wave in the usual "linear" model would have a breaking force of 6 metric tons per square metre [t/m2] (8.5 psi). Although modern ships are designed to tolerate a breaking wave of 15 t/m2 (21 psi), a rogue wave can dwarf both of these figures with a breaking force of 100 t/m2 (140 psi)."Think about tons per square meter on the side of the boat, and pounds per square inch on ports and hatches.   That was from wikipedia "Rogue Waves".   This may be the force of a breaking wave against a stationary object, but for a small boat, I am thinking that being lofted by a breaking wave and tossed into more-still water would be an effect to be considered too.  "Butane is generally going to show a much lower vapor pressure in the container than propane. But you can see from the table that as outdoor temperature varies between zero and 80 deg. F., the pressure of LP gas in the outdoor tank varies widely, from about 28 psi to as much as 140 psi."That was from http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Propane_Tank_Gas_Pressures.phpWhy do I post about propane pressure?  Because FYI, there are plenty of steel propane tanks of different sizes, the larger they are, the thicker they have to be.   Tanks about the size of a small yacht are about 1/2" thick.   That does not mean a thinner boat is unsafe, there is a lot of internal structure that incidentally or intentionally both stiffens and strengthens a boat, even with an origami.      In any case, when considering the large saloon windows and the hatch on my existing boat, I will be calculating their burst pressure and thinking about reinforcing or reducing their size.  The following is an on-line calculation program:    http://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_mechanics/plates/theory.cfmThe engineer's toolbox will give you numbers for stiffness/Young's Modulus.  I think this calculation's greatest use is to demonstrate how much stiffer or stronger a large saloon window is if it is divided in half, or in seeing the advantage of selecting 1" thick window material over 3/4".   Careful to get the numbers in the input form right the first time, I think it only gives you two free calculations before it asks for membership.  One might appreciate the effect of changing one dimension by running one calculation for the approximate size of your saloon window, and then a second calculation with something of the same height, but half the length or double the thickness and comparing the two results.  If you want to test the effect of other changes and have run out of free trials, try it on a different day, after clearing the web cache.   Going back to making a boat structure stronger, similarly, dividing up the dimensions with interior stiffenings is one way.  This is not necessary a complete bulkhead but perhaps flanges that one would attach interior finishing to, or integrated tankage.  Do not add columns thinking this is good.  Go back to tons per square meter.... will your column hold tons?  Will it punch through the skin of the boat if it ever carries its maximum load?  In fibreglass boats, the sides of cabinets etc are glassed into the hull and provide stiffness.   Why not make some interior structure of a steel boat out of steel that is tacked to the hull?  The factors of stiffness and strength gained are the same as in a fibreglass boat.  Since a steel boat is so much stronger to begin with, is this a reason not to bother ?   Or even more reason to gain the double or quadruple effect, with little effort?  Yes of course, in any extreme incident that is likely to deform the boat, these reinforcements would become visible as ripples in the outer skin, like an old freighter or the hungry dog look (so skinny, its ribs show) that Brent refers to.  I am not afraid to see these ribs as ripples, if their strength is ever called upon.Still, priority #1 has to be the large saloon window and proper hatches.  Matt|
33699|33695|2016-09-19 15:23:22|brentswain38|Re: Ballast Middle keel plate|3/16th  would be fine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :What thickness of plate should I make the cross piece (the back of the ballast) that goes in the keel on the single keel Swain? I am building the 31.Thanks, Marlin|
33700|33697|2016-09-19 15:30:30|brentswain38|Re: Transporting a Mast|I moved my mast on a tiny boat trailer, with the tongue fitting on the top of the mast. Then I had my brother,  a fireman who knew all the back roads,  do the driving.For your boat , aluminium hatches would be extremely simple, quick and cheap  to build.My book has the directions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1455184019 #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497 .ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1455184019 #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497 .ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}Marlin, your project looks amazing.  I have followed a few and have been enticed by the idea of building a steel boat.   I have a boat, a classic-plastic solid fibreglass.  I look at the work it needs, and listen to those who speak of the reasons to prefer a steel boat.   The idea that, at the heart of it, if my boat rubs on a rock, even once, 99% chance, I am looking at a deep scar I need to repair.   My boat has lots of fibreglass to spare so, I am not so concerned about it being compromised quickly, it is just the work to get it back to the way it was.   With a steel boat, it is more likely just paint, maybe a dent that is no urgent problem.   There is no repair I can do on a fibreglass boat that is not at least as easy on a steel boat because in the limit, I can patch a steel boat with fibreglass.   With a steel boat I can weld, drill, screw, through-bolt, rivet, even stick a magnet to it.   Yes, there is the constant battle with rust but with a bit more, and more prompt, attention to coatings, a steel boat can be just as eternal as my plastic one.   While I have toyed with the idea of building from scratch in steel, the boat I have is enough of a project for me.   I have no doubt that when your boat is complete, it will be much better than mine in many ways.I have looked at your entire photo diary of building Marlin.  In all of the photo diaries of building, I have seen a lot of details that are different.  Clearly, there is a lot of room for personalization, but also it seems a lot of room for indecision.   All of the questions and answers in the mailing list are very informative.  For instance, I know nothing about welding stainless, and I have been following your thread closely.   The only stainless I have ever welded was a small fitting, and I used a rod made for steel and afterward carefully covered the entire part in a clear marine enamel paint.   In the last few weeks, I have been looking at stainless and rods, decided 316L would be my first choice but then found that a box of welding rod is $100.  Whatever I might consider it for, the bought-solution in stainless would have to be pretty expensive to consider stainless fabrication myself.   That is before considering my level of welding skill.   You are overcoming these challenges -- the satisfaction you must be getting from this project is enviable.One of your photos raised a question Marlin.  I see a photo of a mast strapped to the side of a pickup -- with a lot of hardware on it, mast steps and everything --  good score!   My question is about this method of transportation.  Who long was this mast? You said it was moved 2 miles?   How fast was the truck able to drive?As a general question to everyone else, if one wanted to transport a mast on public roads, how would you do it?    Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 14:15:11 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stick welding stainless  I was using 308's because when I started this project I knew nothing about welding, period. And, in Brent's book he says "I have had no problems with the 300 series of stainless rods..." and so I just used whatever was at the steel yard, which was 308's. I bought two boxes and then struggled through them for the next year and a half. There have been many, many things that I have had to re-do or just live with having done "wrong" throughout my project. Many things weren't in the book, on the DVD, or on this forum (or sometimes I stumble upon imformation I needed months ago while searching for something different), or on any other website showing how Brent's boats are constructed. I think it is unfortunate that one of the best documented builds (MOM) charges to have the bulk of the photos available,considering that it doesn't look like they are hurting for cash. Anyways, I've been making a list of these things and slowly adding them to my blog site as they come up cuz god damn it's been frustrating at times. https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/build-tips/ Phukin @ schitt man,   Marlin#ygrps-yiv-1455184019 #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497 .ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1455184019 #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497 .ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1455184019 #ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497 .ygrps-yiv-1455184019ygrps-yiv-1166253497ExternalClass 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33701|33697|2016-09-19 15:51:10|brentswain38|Maintenace|I got my hookah compressor to do some sandblasting, very slow at 90PSI.I checked out air needle scalers, and found they only need 90 PSI at 2,5CFM, and only cost from $40 to $100 ,while electric ones are around $1,000.So I am ordering one.I can also hook it up to the second stage on a scuba tank, for about120 PSI. As 2.5 CFM is a lot of time from 80 cubic feet of air, and each rust spot takes only a second to get to white metal with the  needle scaler, it should last me a long  time on a fill. That will drastically reduce maintenance time , to brushing a few dabs of epoxy on several times  a day. It also lets me clean any rust inside , without the dust of sandblasting.|
33702|33697|2016-09-19 17:34:10|opuspaul|Re: Maintenace|I have tried a needle scaler on several occasions.   The one that I have fits on to a standard air hammer.  They are very good for removing heavy rust and scale when a wire brush is not up to it and skipping over the surface.    Sand blasting is always the first choice since the needle scaler can pound impurities into the surface of the metal.  If it is just a typical rust spot or small chip and I can't blast, I prefer to use a knotted wire cup on a grinder.   I think it does a better job than the scaler, especially if the original blast profile is largely still present on the surface of the metal.  Paul|
33703|33446|2016-09-19 19:00:44|Matt Malone|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> Brent Wrote: >A small boat at  sea is far from being the stationary object ... True, however impact is a sudden increase of force in an instant.  While a small boat may start accelerating more in that instant,  it has no velocity yet, and the impact has already happened.  I think you will find that anything bigger than a few square feet, an empty floating barrel for instance, will experience about the same impact pressure in that instant.   The true advantage of small comes later in tough flexibility.     > ( google " Law of mechanical similitude") A very important principle that allows small models to represent the behaviour of larger things along non-dimensional lines of proportion.  In water FLOWS these lines are very complex because of the interplay of dimension, speed, density and viscosity of water.  The Reynold's Number is one non-dimensional measure along which models might be scaled changing dimension but altering other parameters, like speed, to keep the Reynold's Number the same for the model as the real thing.  Very odd and unexpected forces can be generated with water flows, hatches might be sucked off the hull by a flow, more than blown in.  I was once surfing in hurricane generated waves, I was on top of the curl of a 10 foot break at the base of a 30 foot wave.  The force of the water flowing down the slope of the wave to the curl flowed over my surfboard from behind me.  At about 1 foot deep, my surfboard snapped into 3 pieces under me.  Yes, I felt a peculiar heaviness of the water, far more than laying in a 1 foot deep river (done that too) but I flexed.  The surfboard did not and tremendous forces were applied to its non-conforming shape.   I suspect the force that broke the board was caused more by suction forces on the bottom surface of the surf board than pressure on the top.  Flow is different from impact though, and I was quoting only impact.       >I once sailed from BC to New Zealand in my first boat, with the  outboard well plugged >by a 1.25 sq ft piece of plywood, held in by a couple of 2 inch nails, encountering some >severe weather along the way.  It never moved.  I do not doubt it for a minute.  My house continues to stand because the members experience forces in favourable geometries, the nails simply resist the normally-very-small orthogonal/shear forces that prevent it from parallelogramming and laying down like an old barn in a tornado.  Unfortunately anecdotes like this plywood plate can be used to support obviously ridiculous conclusions like plywood boats might be as good as steel -- after all if one hull plate was fine as plywood, why not all of them?   It is all about how and how much of the material is used.   I was suggesting only how one might appreciate improving one aspect of a design with a slight modification.  It is a much more scientific approach because it changes only one thing and compares the before and after.    >I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in >afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact. I do not doubt that for a minute that that has happened.  There are a lot of complex things going on in a patch, and that is before considering basic mistakes like assuring compatible matrix materials, compatible shrinkage profiles, proper surface preparation, appropriate aspect ratio to the interface taper, fibre orientation, and then unanticipated factors like unfavourable degradation and the power of the peel-mode-of-failure over some adhesives.   Can good repairs be made in primitive conditions?  Yes.  Can repairs that look pretty good actually be pretty bad?  Yes.  There is skill involved, just like with welding, but I have to admit, hammering on a welded part can make me feel more confident than I have personally ever felt about an particular adhesive job.  But if that were the entire story for welding, then industrial X-ray companies to check welds would not exist.   Yes, Brent has a lot of welds in the boat designs, and at least some of it is likely to be as strong as the surrounding metal, so, like a box that is held together with spots of hot glue (like most product boxes) one will more often rip cardboard as glue in ripping them apart.     >Shape makes a huge difference, far more effective in small sailing craft >than framing ( which only stiffens right  next to the frame, increasing the  >chance of holing, in the case of hitting a sharp rock, a factor that scantling >rules either under estimate, or miss altogether.)>Chines , decks, tanks and  and  centrelines are the structural equivalent of >fully welded longitudinal steel bulkheads. >That is  the reason pressure tanks are round instead of square. All of these are positive strengthening methods, but saying one entire method (no matter how it is used) is better than another, unconditionally, like origami is better than framing, ignores the possible proper use of materials and structures in framing to suit a style of construction.  Similarly, saying some vaguely defined shapes are structurally equivalent to fully welded bulkheads is a really big statement.  Blanket statements should be regarded skeptically.   Saying that on a small yacht, an origami includes a lot less pieces to put together (less build complication) should be enough of a reason to favour origami, and it seems pretty self-evident by counting successful boats, and the number of pieces.      Yes, bad framing can certainly overstiffen a particular point next to a softer point and this discontinuity, and the resulting stress concentration can increase the chance of holing.   But in theory, so can, origami-stitching plates at odd angles with unfavorable loadings.  Man, I am glad the cockpit-to-hull areas of the origami seemed to have worked out in practice, because it would be hell for an engineer to make sure ahead of time that all those intersecting plates and seams did not produce some odd stress concentrations in some loading situations.   And just because it worked in a particular construction does not make it possible to say (blanket statement) that the method is free of potential problems if attempted with different designs.   Origami seems to have proven itself out in practice when used in the Brent Swain shapes and sizes.  Stretching to different shapes or sizes is faith, without supporting calculations.  Lets be realistic though, until well into the last century, accepted boat building was a very high percentage faith in the perceived reasons that past designs were successful, and trying to extend that faith to a different design.  This was not always successful, though certainly prior to 1883 (Reynolds Number), both the successful and unsuccessful designers used design "calculations" that were better compared to witchdoctoring than modern science-based medicine.   In 2016, accepting that something is working, and is therefore worth repeating, is the same as confidently taking a ride on an old ship still in service from 1900 -- what is wrong with that?  Just because the design was arrived at by "gut", "experience", trial and error and perceived reasons for success which may not be accurate, whether more than 100 years ago, or about 30 years ago for Brent's origami, does not change the fact of its service record.   Brent's designs that work, work.  Here is the proof: http://www.sv-mom.com/different%20boats.htmlGoing further one risks making generalizations, and risks being wrong.   My post was intended to provide a hint, using actual proper math, of how one might consider incremental improvements.   Can one make mistakes misapplying math when one does not know what they are doing?  Sure they can.  Generally it seems to me that considering small changes to strengthening things that already represent weak points and holes in the hull (ports and hatches), it is a lot harder to compromise the rest of the boat.     >Steel interior parts would make a boat super heavy, condensation plagued , >and would be a maintenance problem. Could very well be.  I would listen to experience, but reject blanket statements when making specific choices.    >Numbers jugglers love thin  plate and lots of framing. That makes the numbers  look good. Sure they do.  Thin and framing is lighter and might be cheaper for an industrial construction; it certainly is when ships become huge.   But I am quite sure I was suggesting numerical studies of thick vs. thick plus stiffeners, and thick vs. thicker to appreciate the factors of improvement with even small changes.   >Experienced metal boat cruisers prefer  thicker plate and less framing. That >reflects the reality of owning a steel boat over time. Again, I would listen to experience.... but be careful not to swallow blanket statements whole.    >A plastic shop worker once told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of glass, >for a given thickness.. Regular glass, regular plexi... maybe... regular glass is pretty fragile.    Do not underestimate engineered glass though.   I once accidentally locked my kid in the van on a hot day.   Less than a minute later, I grabbed a metal hand-cart from the neighbouring business.  You know a mover's hand-cart, about 4.5 feet tall, two wheels, for transporting boxes, about 20 pounds of steel that is pretty durable?   I used it battering-ram style on the small, square, back window of the van rear door.   I swung it for all I had.  The round metal hand rail at the top of the cart just bounced off the glass.   There was not a mark.  On the second swing I summoned a little more, and hit it in the same spot, and cracked the glass.   Once cracked, a couple more swings did the trick.   I have worked with plexi of the same thickness as this van window, no way it is 25 times stronger, I am not even convinced it would be as strong as my van's window if I hit it with a hand-cart.   But of course, I always use plexi that is much thicker for load and would use even thicker plexi if I anticipated impact.   Plexi is an accepted, strong, transparent, engineering material for windows.   I have no blanket problem with plexi.  It is all about using the material in the right shape and proportions to the anticipated load.   The point of my initial post was not to criticize any method, only to encourage others to try some accessible math, so that they might discover for themselves the factor of 4, 6 or 10 that might be gained by a very small modification to a weak point, like a large port or hatch.      Matt---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :"A 12-metre (39 ft) wave in the usual "linear" model would have a breaking force of 6 metric tons per square metre [t/m2] (8.5 psi). Although modern ships are designed to tolerate a breaking wave of 15 t/m2 (21 psi), a rogue wave can dwarf both of these figures with a breaking force of 100 t/m2 (140 psi)."Think about tons per square meter on the side of the boat, and pounds per square inch on ports and hatches.   That was from wikipedia "Rogue Waves".   This may be the force of a breaking wave against a stationary object, but for a small boat, I am thinking that being lofted by a breaking wave and tossed into more-still water would be an effect to be considered too.  "Butane is generally going to show a much lower vapor pressure in the container than propane. But you can see from the table that as outdoor temperature varies between zero and 80 deg. F., the pressure of LP gas in the outdoor tank varies widely, from about 28 psi to as much as 140 psi."That was from http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Propane_Tank_Gas_Pressures.phpWhy do I post about propane pressure?  Because FYI, there are plenty of steel propane tanks of different sizes, the larger they are, the thicker they have to be.   Tanks about the size of a small yacht are about 1/2" thick.   That does not mean a thinner boat is unsafe, there is a lot of internal structure that incidentally or intentionally both stiffens and strengthens a boat, even with an origami.      In any case, when considering the large saloon windows and the hatch on my existing boat, I will be calculating their burst pressure and thinking about reinforcing or reducing their size.  The following is an on-line calculation program:    http://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_mechanics/plates/theory.cfmThe engineer's toolbox will give you numbers for stiffness/Young's Modulus.  I think this calculation's greatest use is to demonstrate how much stiffer or stronger a large saloon window is if it is divided in half, or in seeing the advantage of selecting 1" thick window material over 3/4".   Careful to get the numbers in the input form right the first time, I think it only gives you two free calculations before it asks for membership.  One might appreciate the effect of changing one dimension by running one calculation for the approximate size of your saloon window, and then a second calculation with something of the same height, but half the length or double the thickness and comparing the two results.  If you want to test the effect of other changes and have run out of free trials, try it on a different day, after clearing the web cache.   Going back to making a boat structure stronger, similarly, dividing up the dimensions with interior stiffenings is one way.  This is not necessary a complete bulkhead but perhaps flanges that one would attach interior finishing to, or integrated tankage.  Do not add columns thinking this is good.  Go back to tons per square meter.... will your column hold tons?  Will it punch through the skin of the boat if it ever carries its maximum load?  In fibreglass boats, the sides of cabinets etc are glassed into the hull and provide stiffness.   Why not make some interior structure of a steel boat out of steel that is tacked to the hull?  The factors of stiffness and strength gained are the same as in a fibreglass boat.  Since a steel boat is so much stronger to begin with, is this a reason not to bother ?   Or even more reason to gain the double or quadruple effect, with little effort?  Yes of course, in any extreme incident that is likely to deform the boat, these reinforcements would become visible as ripples in the outer skin, like an old freighter or the hungry dog look (so skinny, its ribs show) that Brent refers to.  I am not afraid to see these ribs as ripples, if their strength is ever called upon.Still, priority #1 has to be the large saloon window and proper hatches.  Matt                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1813493545 .ygrps-yiv-1813493545ExternalClass 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33704|33446|2016-09-20 06:40:51|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|Am 19.09.2016 um 21:21 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]: I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.I can second this from some firsthand experience.A lot of things "glassed in" are not "in" at all anymore on a choppy sea in 45 kts - no special impacts needed.We once even had the complete rudder apparatus (hydraulics and all) of a brand fu&%*ing new boat (55'' German made) come loose in one piece in a Maestrale north of Corsica, while not even beating anymore but hove to for insufficient reefing possibilities - the factory later offered to reglass it free of charge, though. Owner waived and got a french Alubat instead. Shape makes a huge difference, far more effective in small sailing craft than framingShape of the hull together with the resulting COG-weight relations does make a remarkable difference in durability AND, first of all, in the way dynamic acceleration induced by wind and waves accumulates for the very hull.Best shown (for data nerds and the real maths lover) in "Seaworthyness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. Marchaj, getting down to some of the basic reasons for the 1979 Fastnet desaster, in terms of IOR rules and resulting hull forms vastly disregarding reality like weather and general conditions off shore.When it comes to bad weather durability of a tiny little boat, I think most important is the moderate and reassuring behaviour of the boat together with real world sailability once conditions deteriorate considerably.Keeping afloat after a beatdown or a 360 turtling isn't to underestimate by any means, but compareably important is, as far as I learnt by doing, for the crew to not being beaten to a bloody mess by the very boat already hours (or days) before the worst case might hit You in form of a rogue monster.Heaving to isn't the way to steer around those seas, sailing is. Or at least scudsailing under bare poles.The boat's manners versus her crew in abrasive conditions might prevent these tactics, though, what makes You prone to the very rogue wave every six or seven hours You might otherwise have steered out.About Brent's boats durability in case You'd in deed be hit by those aggressive submarine rocks or washed ashore I do not feel like adding anything anyway.0.02 bucks ... Cheers G_B|
33705|33697|2016-09-20 07:55:25|garyhlucas|Re: Transporting a Mast|     For those of you needing a few lbs of stainless rods McMaster Carr sells  small quantities and they weld really well.      <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 19, 2016 3:30 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Transporting a Mast       I moved my mast on a tiny boat trailer, with the tongue fitting on the top of  the mast. Then I had my brother,  a fireman who knew all the back  roads,  do the driving.For your boat , aluminium hatches would be  extremely simple, quick and cheap  to build.My book has the  directions. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com,  <m_j_malone@...> wrote :  Marlin, your project looks amazing.  I have followed a few and  have been enticed by the idea of building a steel boat.   I have a  boat, a classic-plastic solid fibreglass.  I look at the work it needs, and  listen to those who speak of the reasons to prefer a steel boat.   The  idea that, at the heart of it, if my boat rubs on a rock, even once, 99% chance,  I am looking at a deep scar I need to repair.   My boat has lots of  fibreglass to spare so, I am not so concerned about it being compromised  quickly, it is just the work to get it back to the way it was.   With  a steel boat, it is more likely just paint, maybe a dent that is no urgent  problem.   There is no repair I can do on a fibreglass boat that is  not at least as easy on a steel boat because in the limit, I can patch a steel  boat with fibreglass.   With a steel boat I can weld, drill, screw,  through-bolt, rivet, even stick a magnet to it.   Yes, there is the  constant battle with rust but with a bit more, and more prompt, attention to  coatings, a steel boat can be just as eternal as my plastic one.    While I have toyed with the idea of building from scratch in steel, the boat I  have is enough of a project for me.   I have no doubt that when your  boat is complete, it will be much better than mine in many ways.I have  looked at your entire photo diary of building Marlin.  In all of the photo  diaries of building, I have seen a lot of details that are different.   Clearly, there is a lot of room for personalization, but also it seems a lot of  room for indecision.   All of the questions and answers in the mailing  list are very informative.  For instance, I know nothing about welding  stainless, and I have been following your thread closely.   The only  stainless I have ever welded was a small fitting, and I used a rod made for  steel and afterward carefully covered the entire part in a clear marine enamel  paint.   In the last few weeks, I have been looking at stainless and  rods, decided 316L would be my first choice but then found that a box of welding  rod is $100.  Whatever I might consider it for, the bought-solution in  stainless would have to be pretty expensive to consider stainless fabrication  myself.   That is before considering my level of welding  skill.   You are overcoming these challenges -- the satisfaction you  must be getting from this project is enviable.One of your photos raised  a question Marlin.  I see a photo of a mast strapped to the side of a  pickup -- with a lot of hardware on it, mast steps and everything --  good  score!   My question is about this method of transportation.  Who  long was this mast? You said it was moved 2 miles?   How fast was the  truck able to drive?As a general question to everyone else, if one  wanted to transport a mast on public roads, how would you do  it?    Matt     To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate:  Sun, 18 Sep 2016 14:15:11 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stick welding  stainless     I was using 308's because when I  started this project I knew nothing about welding, period. And, in Brent's book  he says "I have had no problems with the 300 series of stainless rods..." and so  I just used whatever was at the steel yard, which was 308's. I bought two boxes  and then struggled through them for the next year and a half. There have  been many, many things that I have had to re-do or just live with having done  "wrong" throughout my project. Many things weren't in the book, on the DVD, or  on this forum (or sometimes I stumble upon imformation I needed months ago while  searching for something different), or on any other website showing how Brent's  boats are constructed. I think it is unfortunate that one of the best documented  builds (MOM) charges to have the bulk of the photos available,considering that  it doesn't look like they are hurting for cash. Anyways, I've been  making a list of these things and slowly adding them to my blog site as they  come up cuz god damn it's been frustrating at times. https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/build-tips/Phukin  @ schitt man,   Marlin |
33706|33695|2016-09-20 09:03:03|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Ballast Middle keel plate|Thanks.|
33707|33446|2016-09-20 09:41:48|Matt Malone|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|  <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} --> "Seaworthiness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. MarchajI am 20 pages in and it is already excellent.   Thank you G_B.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:40:48 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Design of Hatches and Ports                                                   Am 19.09.2016 um 21:21 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]: I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.I can second this from some firsthand experience.A lot of things "glassed in" are not "in" at all anymore on a choppy sea in 45 kts - no special impacts needed.We once even had the complete rudder apparatus (hydraulics and all) of a brand fu&%*ing new boat (55'' German made) come loose in one piece in a Maestrale north of Corsica, while not even beating anymore but hove to for insufficient reefing possibilities - the factory later offered to reglass it free of charge, though. Owner waived and got a french Alubat instead. Shape makes a huge difference, far more effective in small sailing craft than framingShape of the hull together with the resulting COG-weight relations does make a remarkable difference in durability AND, first of all, in the way dynamic acceleration induced by wind and waves accumulates for the very hull.Best shown (for data nerds and the real maths lover) in "Seaworthyness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. Marchaj, getting down to some of the basic reasons for the 1979 Fastnet desaster, in terms of IOR rules and resulting hull forms vastly disregarding reality like weather and general conditions off shore.When it comes to bad weather durability of a tiny little boat, I think most important is the moderate and reassuring behaviour of the boat together with real world sailability once conditions deteriorate considerably.Keeping afloat after a beatdown or a 360 turtling isn't to underestimate by any means, but compareably important is, as far as I learnt by doing, for the crew to not being beaten to a bloody mess by the very boat already hours (or days) before the worst case might hit You in form of a rogue monster.Heaving to isn't the way to steer around those seas, sailing is. Or at least scudsailing under bare poles.The boat's manners versus her crew in abrasive conditions might prevent these tactics, though, what makes You prone to the very rogue wave every six or seven hours You might otherwise have steered out.About Brent's boats durability in case You'd in deed be hit by those aggressive submarine rocks or washed ashore I do not feel like adding anything anyway.0.02 bucks ... Cheers G_B                                <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;}  #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxads { }  #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxad { padding:0 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxad p { }  #ygrps-yiv-1625078077 .ygrps-yiv-1625078077ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-1625078077ecxygrp-mkp 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33708|33446|2016-09-20 16:59:32|opuspaul|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|I was on Vancouver 42 in some very nasty weather sailing from the big island of Hawaii to Maui a few years ago.  It was blowing 50 knots, with very short and steep 5 to 6 meter seas.   For those that don't know them, the Vancouver 42 is supposed to be a very well built fiberglass boat with a good "offshore" reputation.   I couldn't believe how much it twisted, flexed and moved.   There was a 3 cm gap in the book shelves that opened up.  The doors to the head wouldn't stay shut or if it did shut, you couldn't open it up again.  I was trying to sleep after coming off watch in the middle of the night and all I could think of was the boat coming down on the back of one of the Humpback whales, which were breeding in the area and numerous.  If that happened, think the boat would have opened up like and egg.The same thing happened to me on a trip from Tonga to NZ on a  triple planked and glassed wood boat.   In the middle of the night,  a big crack was heard when we came off and slammed down on a big wave.   The owner had no idea where the noise came from but thought it might have come from one of the laminated ring frames.   No thanks.  Give me a properly built metal boat any day.  Cheers, Paul I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.|
33709|33446|2016-09-21 03:27:47|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|Hull and deck being "soft" together in terms of torsion and recurrent, considerable bending in a chopp isn't the big problem in the first place, even if this might come with really annoying signs like self-opening loodoors, self-opening cabinets or parttime leaking of windowframes and hatches.The creaking, whining and cracking of the hull ever was an essential part in seafaring, no matter whose write-up You come across (and it definitely is ascertained on a steelboat in rollercoaster conditions just as well).What IS the big problem on "soft" boats is the fact that most of the constructions (and constructeurs) these days ignorantly disregard the differences between soft shell and literally "hardware" when it comes to nautically important parts like rudderposts, p. ex.A transomhung rudder won't be affected in its ability to do what's intended to no matter what considerable aka visible the torsion of the hull might be, a rudderpost from deck through cabinsole down to outer hull definitely will suffer remarkably constraints in a "soft" hull as long as the deteriorated conditions endure, or will lastly come loose at one or the other point - thus some of the insurance crooks for charterboats define Beaufort 6 and upwards as "unsailable gale condition" because of the defects modern shitty production boats suffer regularly in perfectly normal wind.One major trick of the boats the Pacific was recolonized on for some several 1000 years was being "soft" in terms of hull and outriggers, hull and rigg and so on.A soft conjunction between hull and outrigger does have to be made from cord and rope, though, One must not put in any iron nail or bolt, for this would be a major disregard of the construction principle "bound-on" aka "soft" aka ""forgiving" when punished by harsh conditions.The drama of modern construction schooling in my opinion is the almost complete lack of comprehensive philosophy and the vast overestimation of maths, FE and singled out material numbers without understanding what those really mean TOGETHER.What brings us back to Marchaj, who experimentally gained lots of lots of sheer abstract numbers in tanktesting and artificial (=controlled) wavepool testing, while assessed those numbers philosophically from the point of view people like Nick Ward (who survived the 1979 Fastnet tragedy aboard "Grimalkin") could probably explain best. On the other side: building the hull from a material compareably stiff like One's rudderposts, chainplates and hatchframes is a pretty proper approach to this philosophical problem as well, and the more I learn about metal (formerly being an assured woods man from scratch) and its upsides for boatbuilding, the more I understand the philosophy behind mastering the challenge of building the boat with steel, a material not at all suited in the first place, beginning with its density of more than sevenfold over the one water shows.Cheers G_BAm 20.09.2016 um 22:59 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:                          I was on Vancouver 42 in some very nasty weather sailing from the big island of Hawaii to Maui a few years ago.  It was blowing 50 knots, with very short and steep 5 to 6 meter seas.   For those that don't know them, the Vancouver 42 is supposed to be a very well built fiberglass boat with a good "offshore" reputation.   I couldn't believe how much it twisted, flexed and moved.   There was a 3 cm gap in the book shelves that opened up.  The doors to the head wouldn't stay shut or if it did shut, you couldn't open it up again.  I was trying to sleep after coming off watch in the middle of the night and all I could think of was the boat coming down on the back of one of the Humpback whales, which were breeding in the area and numerous.  If that happened, think the boat would have opened up like and egg.The same thing happened to me on a trip from Tonga to NZ on a  triple planked and glassed wood boat.   In the middle of the night,  a big crack was heard when we came off and slammed down on a big wave.   The owner had no idea where the noise came from but thought it might have come from one of the laminated ring frames.   No thanks.  Give me a properly built metal boat any day.  Cheers, PaulI have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.                          |
33710|33446|2016-09-21 03:54:10|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|You're welcome.To get a taste of what led to the destinct research of  "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor" subsequent the official report on Fastnet Race '79 You might also have a look to Nick Wards write-up "Left For Dead", a matter-of-factly first hand record of the unimaginable, published more than 25 years after it happened, published only with the help of documentary filmer Sinead O'Brien.Armchair sailing of the chilly fraction.And a nice piece to show once more that lastly staying afloat and alife is in fact more of a mental thing than we ususally believe on sunny days in a slight breeze in sight of an ever-so-charming windward shore ...G_BAm 20.09.2016 um 15:41 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                            "Seaworthiness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. MarchajI am 20 pages in and it is already excellent.   Thank you G_B.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:40:48 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Design of Hatches and Ports                                                   Am 19.09.2016 um 21:21 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.I can second this from some firsthand experience.A lot of things "glassed in" are not "in" at all anymore on a choppy sea in 45 kts - no special impacts needed.We once even had the complete rudder apparatus (hydraulics and all) of a brand fu&%*ing new boat (55'' German made) come loose in one piece in a Maestrale north of Corsica, while not even beating anymore but hove to for insufficient reefing possibilities - the factory later offered to reglass it free of charge, though. Owner waived and got a french Alubat instead. Shape makes a huge difference, far more effective in small sailing craft than framingShape of the hull together with the resulting COG-weight relations does make a remarkable difference in durability AND, first of all, in the way dynamic acceleration induced by wind and waves accumulates for the very hull.Best shown (for data nerds and the real maths lover) in "Seaworthyness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. Marchaj, getting down to some of the basic reasons for the 1979 Fastnet desaster, in terms of IOR rules and resulting hull forms vastly disregarding reality like weather and general conditions off shore.When it comes to bad weather durability of a tiny little boat, I think most important is the moderate and reassuring behaviour of the boat together with real world sailability once conditions deteriorate considerably.Keeping afloat after a beatdown or a 360 turtling isn't to underestimate by any means, but compareably important is, as far as I learnt by doing, for the crew to not being beaten to a bloody mess by the very boat already hours (or days) before the worst case might hit You in form of a rogue monster.Heaving to isn't the way to steer around those seas, sailing is. Or at least scudsailing under bare poles.The boat's manners versus her crew in abrasive conditions might prevent these tactics, though, what makes You prone to the very rogue wave every six or seven hours You might otherwise have steered out.About Brent's boats durability in case You'd in deed be hit by those aggressive submarine rocks or washed ashore I do not feel like adding anything anyway.0.02 bucks ... Cheers G_B                                 		 	   		                             |
33711|33446|2016-09-21 04:12:34|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|... oh, and there is another one by Marchaj I frequently recommend, too:  "Sail Performance", where he tries to shed a bit of light to some of he pretty rocksolid illusions about how sails and rigging have to be formed and built in terms of IOR ruling versus real performance.  Lots of maths, based on empiricism instead of fundamentalisticly conservative preconception - very nice reading as well.  Cheers G_B      Am 20.09.2016 um 15:41 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   >  > "Seaworthiness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. Marchaj >  > I am 20 pages in and it is already excellent.   Thank you G_B. >  > Matt > |
33712|33697|2016-09-22 15:26:54|brentswain38|Re: Maintenace|I have found that  a wire brush just polished the surface of the rust, without removing it completely. A needle scaler does.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :I have tried a needle scaler on several occasions.   The one that I have fits on to a standard air hammer.  They are very good for removing heavy rust and scale when a wire brush is not up to it and skipping over the surface.    Sand blasting is always the first choice since the needle scaler can pound impurities into the surface of the metal.  If it is just a typical rust spot or small chip and I can't blast, I prefer to use a knotted wire cup on a grinder.   I think it does a better job than the scaler, especially if the original blast profile is largely still present on the surface of the metal.  Paul|
33713|33446|2016-09-22 15:36:07|brentswain38|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|At sea in rough weather, I use what I call my security blanket, a piece of canvas tied down solidly at the corners of my bunk, tight longitudinally and loose athwartships. I can take a 360 without being thrown out of  my bunk. Being loose athwartships makes it as comfortable as any blanket.A snap hook at the shoulder makes it easy to quickly get out of.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :Am 19.09.2016 um 21:21 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]: I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.I can second this from some firsthand experience.A lot of things "glassed in" are not "in" at all anymore on a choppy sea in 45 kts - no special impacts needed.We once even had the complete rudder apparatus (hydraulics and all) of a brand fu&%*ing new boat (55'' German made) come loose in one piece in a Maestrale north of Corsica, while not even beating anymore but hove to for insufficient reefing possibilities - the factory later offered to reglass it free of charge, though. Owner waived and got a french Alubat instead. Shape makes a huge difference, far more effective in small sailing craft than framingShape of the hull together with the resulting COG-weight relations does make a remarkable difference in durability AND, first of all, in the way dynamic acceleration induced by wind and waves accumulates for the very hull.Best shown (for data nerds and the real maths lover) in "Seaworthyness, the forgotten Factor" by C.A. Marchaj, getting down to some of the basic reasons for the 1979 Fastnet desaster, in terms of IOR rules and resulting hull forms vastly disregarding reality like weather and general conditions off shore.When it comes to bad weather durability of a tiny little boat, I think most important is the moderate and reassuring behaviour of the boat together with real world sailability once conditions deteriorate considerably.Keeping afloat after a beatdown or a 360 turtling isn't to underestimate by any means, but compareably important is, as far as I learnt by doing, for the crew to not being beaten to a bloody mess by the very boat already hours (or days) before the worst case might hit You in form of a rogue monster.Heaving to isn't the way to steer around those seas, sailing is. Or at least scudsailing under bare poles.The boat's manners versus her crew in abrasive conditions might prevent these tactics, though, what makes You prone to the very rogue wave every six or seven hours You might otherwise have steered out.About Brent's boats durability in case You'd in deed be hit by those aggressive submarine rocks or washed ashore I do not feel like adding anything anyway.0.02 bucks ... Cheers G_B|
33714|33446|2016-09-22 15:43:20|brentswain38|Re: Design of Hatches and Ports|A friend in Hawaii told me that, after seeing plastic boats there start breaking up  in moderate conditions, he was sure glad to get one of my 36 footers. He was anchored off Waikiki, and got his anchor stuck under coral in a swell.. When he winched it tight, a big swell came along and completely buried his bow in green water.Nothing broke. He said it would have completely destroyed the bow on any plastic boat.He said "Hawaii eats plastic boats."---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :I was on Vancouver 42 in some very nasty weather sailing from the big island of Hawaii to Maui a few years ago.  It was blowing 50 knots, with very short and steep 5 to 6 meter seas.   For those that don't know them, the Vancouver 42 is supposed to be a very well built fiberglass boat with a good "offshore" reputation.   I couldn't believe how much it twisted, flexed and moved.   There was a 3 cm gap in the book shelves that opened up.  The doors to the head wouldn't stay shut or if it did shut, you couldn't open it up again.  I was trying to sleep after coming off watch in the middle of the night and all I could think of was the boat coming down on the back of one of the Humpback whales, which were breeding in the area and numerous.  If that happened, think the boat would have opened up like and egg.The same thing happened to me on a trip from Tonga to NZ on a  triple planked and glassed wood boat.   In the middle of the night,  a big crack was heard when we came off and slammed down on a big wave.   The owner had no idea where the noise came from but thought it might have come from one of the laminated ring frames.   No thanks.  Give me a properly built metal boat any day.  Cheers, Paul I have seen posts on plastic boats which  say that anything  glassed in afterwards simply pops loose when they get any serious  impact.|
33715|33697|2016-09-23 09:30:31|Matt Malone|Re: Maintenace|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1576449346 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       The knotted cup brush is the tool I grab first because it is fast, aggressive and very satisfying to use.  It is nothing short of magic in comparison to 95% of the sanding and grinding section of the hardware store.  The other benefit is, you also see very  quickly if it will not do the job:   http://www.redflagdeals.com/deal/home-improvement-tools/3-in-knotted-wire-cup-brush/   I prefer this exact one that is a little flared/conical, it makes it easier to do the inside of 90 degree edges.  Princess Auto also sells more cylindrical ones with no flare, not my recommendation.  This is a consumable.  I buy them 2 or 3 at a time and  always have a new one in the package.     These are more aggressive than any other type of regular wire brush and put more load on the angle grinder, so watch the temperature on the angle grinder.   While these are surprisingly good at completely cleaning off some pieces, right down to clean metal,  other pieces, like Brent says, it just seems to polish the rust into a durable patina.  I got some 3/4" plate from the back field of a scrap yard recently and it was a conspicuous case of a the cup brush failing to completely clean it.    The cup brush is  so fast though, I have repainted entire assemblies effortlessly in an afternoon, using the cup brush to clean off much of the old paint, all loose paint and all rust at a rate close to 1-2 square feet a minute.   I have done my trailers and boat cradle this  way with good results.   I tried it once on the inside of a thin, solid hull fibreglass boat, and the results were ok, but very itchy, I will not do that again (see flap disk below).   It does a very good job for 6011 and 7018 weld prep and weld slag cleanup  as well, but, it can't get pits or inside corners.    On a big job, when I want to work fast, I have two angle grinders out, one with the cup brush and the other with a grinding disk to save the change-over time.   On important welds, I use the cup to clean,  and then the grinder to bevel before the weld.   One caution.  If you remove the blade guard on the angle grinder, as most would to get into tight areas with a cup brush, and then you are working on a very grabby/kickback type area, and the angle grinder ever kicks out of your hands, it will bounce and  kick around on the ground and ricochet off your work piece, sometimes rising up to 3 feet in the air, eventually chasing you 20 feet across the ground, until the power switch unlatches itself, or you get 30 feet away and pull the plug on the extension cord.    If you are very luck, you have jumped completely clear of that aggressive spinning head at the first instant, before it makes its first bounce up to waist level.      The needle scaler is an absolute must because it can get pits and inside corners the cup brush cannot get at all.  It is fast, aggressive, and very satisfying to use.  It is magic compared to a chipping hammer: about 20 times faster, and a 100 times faster  at getting that last flipping irritating little piece of slag that you just can't quite hit right.  You know that piece of slag in a pit that leads you to get out the grinder and grind and reweld -- that one; in a fraction of a second.  It cleans linear weld  slag just as fast as the knotted cup brush, even though it does not cover flat areas as fast as the cup brush:   http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/air-needle-scaler/A-p8234387e    That is the exact one I use.   It also does a very good job on weld slag on inside edges or 90 degree fillets because the part naturally reorients the pins all on the weld.   On outside corners, edges and saddle points one gathers the pins to slide loosely  through the glove on the other hand to keep the pins on target.   These areas are very accessible by knotted cup brush so I often use that instead.         The belt sander is an absolute must because it will get off stuff the knotted cup brush won't, it will flatten the surface when a flat surface is desired, where the needle scaler will tend to leave a peened surface.   I have a little 18"x3" model and it  is still working but I soon regretted not getting a larger, more powerful 21" model and because the belts are easier to get in more varieties at more locations.      I would recommend buying all three, right from the start: angle grinder with cup brush and grinding disc, needle scaler and belt sander.  I went a long time before I was shown the magic of the knotted cup brush, and I regret not knowing about it sooner.    I had never used a needle scaler and put off buying one, but that was a mistake too.  From the moment I got the needle scaler, I have been very satisfied, however, I can see why others would want to buy a more expensive one from a brand name.    I have heard very good things about flap disks on angle grinders.   One guy I know who makes his living in boat maintenance says there is nothing better for taking the coatings off the bottom of old thick fibreglass boats -- the "bottom-hobbit" work.   I  got my first flap disk not long ago and I am going to experiment to see what I like it best on.       When you have not watched others do it, or have not tried it yet, origamiboats can get you started.          Matt         <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> September 22, 2016 3:26 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Maintenace         I have found that  a wire brush just polished the surface of the rust, without removing it completely. A needle scaler does.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :  I have tried a needle scaler on several occasions.   The one that I have fits on to a standard air hammer.  They are very good for removing heavy rust and scale when a wire brush is not up to it and skipping over the surface.     Sand blasting is always the first choice since the needle scaler can pound impurities into the surface of the metal.    If it is just a typical rust spot or small chip and I can't blast, I prefer to use a knotted wire cup on a grinder.   I think it does a better job than the scaler, especially if the original blast profile is largely still present on the surface of the metal.   Paul          |
33716|32819|2016-09-26 16:53:21|dejongralph|Re: Window sealants|Does anybody has experience with Scotch Weld 2141.  It is a 'rubber glue' made for neoprene.  I want to know of it can be used to do the portholes.|
33717|32819|2016-09-26 17:45:01|Gordon Schnell|Re: Window sealants|Its primary use is gluing cardboard boxes together. What you want is a product that has a strong bonding characteristic but cures to leave a flexible and waterproof seal. On Sep 26, 2016, at 2:53 PM, dejongralph@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Scotch Weld 2141|
33718|32819|2016-09-26 21:49:01|Brian Stannard|Re: Window sealants|Dow 795 is one of if not the best choice. On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 1:53 PM, dejongralph@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                Does anybody has experience with Scotch Weld 2141.  It is a 'rubber glue' made for neoprene.  I want to know of it can be used to do the portholes.                                         -- CheersBrian  |
33719|32819|2016-09-27 09:58:40|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Window sealants|Well, that could be one or the other product of the Sika-Marine  - family, depending on how much bonding power You will need.The product would be, while differently formulated, always Polyurethan Rubber, PUR, not hardening but reacting to a thick layer rubber sealant / glue with fair to excellent resistance under marine conditions.The Sika people did a lot of research to improve their stuff's resilience as well as its bonding capacity to different materials and surfaces with the help of many different primers and protocols, so You do have to be pretty accurate with the part's materials You wanna seal in, as well as You do have to know wether it will be more of a caulking job or more of a bonding one You give the goo to do.I had very nice to brilliant results the last three decades with Sika caulking AND bonding to all sorts of surfaces from varnish to raw teak, especially bonding pmma windows to aluminium frames, to aluminium alloy and other materials hulls directly as well as bonding real glass to hullmaterials of different kinds directly.Most important is the right prepping and priming procedure with only their products to get excellent outcomes on difficult combinations of materials with different properties (e-module, p.ex.).Sika regrettably ranges in the gold-and-cocaine pricerange even in bulk, but all and any of the trial'n'error You otherwise would have to do for Your own the next two decades on Your own ship they already have done abundantly for their customers, and I found whenever I used their stuff they did this properly.There are a lot of less costly solutions out there as well, while I can''t give firsthand advice with those I'm afraid.Cheers G_BAm 26.09.2016 um 23:43 schrieb Gordon Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats]: What you want is a product that has a strong bonding characteristic but cures to leave a flexible and waterproof seal.|
33720|33619|2016-09-27 21:09:46|ursus_222|Re: Cockpit Coaming Welding| Hello everyone Plan to use tabs on my combings because the interior of the boat is all foamed so trying to do as little hot work as possible, have some 2x2 by 3/16 304 for tabs to bolt the combings down, with a 1/8 gap along the bottom then use caulking to stop most of the water from coming thru, at least from the outside. Any recommendations on the minimum number of tabs on a combing that is about 4' long and will have two winches.Cheers Vic.|
33721|32819|2016-09-27 21:17:35|opuspaul|Re: Window sealants|There has been more than one old thread on this in the past.I used Sika 295 UV on the acrylic windows on my dodger.  It worked really well and I am happy with the result but it is horrendously expensive and you must use the primer which is even more money than the sealant.   Make sure you download and read the application guide.  The thickness of the seal is important to be able to withstand the expansion and contraction through the temperature changes.   You will also need to paint over the Sika that is exposed to UV.    If I was doing it all again and I still needed the mechanical strength of the Sika, I would either use the approved DOW silicone product or check in to using 3M VHB tape.  It will be much cheaper and easier.  The surface must be very sound and smooth if you are using the tape but it is impressive stuff.   If I didn't need the strength and was relying on mechanical fasteners, I would just use a cork gasket with non-hardening butyl rubber sealant/mastic.   The stuff is cheap, it seals very well for many many years, and you will be able to get it apart again at a later date without destroying everything.  Paulhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4SR6oG0t50https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaRWHpz6fNg    |
33722|32819|2016-09-28 11:23:14|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Window sealants|I second this.Lots of good experiences with butyl as well for three decades;This stuff lasts, but this definitely is not a glue at all, just a -very reliable and durable- gasket material to keep the water out where bolts and screws fasten wellconstructed and properly built things like winches or bolted-in hatchframes - not suitable to put a frameless window from pmma on the house directly, not even with a lot of bolts, though: bearing loads of no matter how many bolts will crackle the pmma in no time for different e-modules and different resulting movements of window and house materials with butyl taking none of the sheering loads.While You're building for Your own, You choose which sort of detail You construct.For my own boat I'd try to avoid Sika where possible and would choose more conservative constructions (in terms of craftsmanship) instead I can disassemble and repair as often as something might give in later (like pmma-windows regularly do under low latitudes sun).Problem with Sika's extraordinary bonding property and sheering resistence in most of the cases is: You will have to decide which one of the two parts flanking the gluejoint You destroy to disintegrate what was glued earlier.Disassembly and regrouping isn't meant for something Sika connects to a compound.G_B Am 28.09.2016 um 03:17 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]: If I didn't need the strength and was relying on mechanical fasteners, I would just use a cork gasket with non-hardening butyl rubber sealant/mastic.   The stuff is cheap, it seals very well for many many years, and you will be able to get it apart again at a later date without destroying everything.  Paul|
33723|15258|2016-10-05 03:10:27|jaybeecherbay|Re: KiwiGrip Answers|Interested in this non skid product.   What is it like to recoat,  and sand down if there is a rust spot?|
33724|15258|2016-10-05 10:55:53|prairiemaidca|Re: KiwiGrip Answers|     I've been using KiwiGrip on Prairie Maid and been very impressed with how well it stands up to wear and tear.  The things I like are how you can make it as aggressive as you desire and that it can be cleaned up with simple water instead of toxic chemicals.  The rollers clean up well and I've used them many times.  I just added some this past week.  I sand off the gloss of the top paint coat and apply a liberal amount of grip.  Let it sit a minute or three then using the roller bring up the surface texture to the  roughness that you desire.  Give it a while to set ( a few minutes) then slowly remove your masking tape and let it cure.  I haven't had to redo any spots or had any underlying issues that would require sanding and reapplying so I'm not sure how big a pain that would be.  All in all a thumbs up for KiwiGrip so far.  MartinPrairie MaidB.S. 36|
33725|32819|2016-10-05 15:15:10|dejongralph|Re: Window sealants|I decided to go for the Dow Corning 795 route.  Be course It seems not to be on the market in Europe, I ordered some from an American webshop.  |
33726|15258|2016-10-05 15:25:33|opuspaul|Re: KiwiGrip Answers|I agree.   I have been using Kiwigrip for probably 8 years.  I have tried just about everything it is by far the best non-skid I have ever had.  It is long lasting, very tough, very easy to apply and patching it is not a problem.  Cheers, Paul|
33727|33727|2016-10-05 15:32:20|roboman3234|Vancouver Island visit|I will be in Victoria the 3rd week of October and in Nanaimo the last week of October. Will anyone be around. I would like to meet a couple of people who have built Brent boats and hear of your building adventures. It would be nice to see a 36' boat. I have a 26' plastic boat (Kent Ranger) now and would like to build something bigger to live on during my retirement.|
33728|32819|2016-10-05 15:47:11|opuspaul|Re: Window sealants|Acrylic/ plexiglass expands and contracts a lot with temperature changes so make sure you leave a thick enough sealant joint to allow for movement.  I am not sure about the DOW product but  Sika recommends about a 1/4 inch thick bead for a standard sized port.   Oddly enough, the metric version of the same pdf says 4 mm.   Google <Sika Organic Glass> or click the link below.  Paulhttp://fr-marine.com/Images/UpFile/201171292438717.pdf---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <dejongralph@...> wrote :I decided to go for the Dow Corning 795 route.  Be course It seems not to be on the market in Europe, I ordered some from an American webshop. |
33730|33730|2016-10-10 13:31:51|aguysailing|Sandblast thinking about...|After 11 yrs from new I am thinking of sandblasting below the waterline as blisters and some dings etc starting to concern me.  I have been reading here about knotted wire brush, needle scaler and belt sander which is do it yourself stuff but seems not as good as sandblasting from some comments.  Is that about right?  I did hear back from one sand blast outfit in Sooke ...  $2500 pricey and would prefer do it yourself.   Does not include removal of used sand but seems to include blast material.   |
33731|33730|2016-10-10 15:08:41|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-560299244 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->     Sandblasting is the industry-accepted standard for surface prep for painting.   That means, cost versus time and expected trouble-free service life is optimized.   No doubt there are better processes, chemical etches or something, but they are likely more  expensive, or take longer.   Check the directions on what product you are using.   It is nearly certain they will comment on sand blasting, or maybe recommend it.       The knotted cup brush, while indispensable as a tool, is not going to be as good at uniformity over a large surface.   The knotted cup brush also will not chew through very hard, flat paint that is well-adhered, or if so, it does so very slowly.   This is  not a problem for farm machinery, trailers, or top-sides, the fresh coat sticks well.  Underwater, I would want it clean and well prepared for good paint adhesion with no patches of questionable compatibility between products.   Rust and brittle paint that  has yet to flake may come off easily with a knotted cup brush, but that is not everything.   The knotted cup brush will quickly remove all paint from outside edges.   I might do all the outside edges and leave the panels to other methods.     The belt sander or flap wheel sander on an angle grinder -- I would definitely use this on any area I thought needed more direct attention before sandblasting the rest.   The needle scaler I might consider on some really nasty blister areas.  I might use a knotted cup brush on those areas to clean up after the needle scaler, to see what I had knocked off with the needle scaler, and what was still left.   After getting down  to clear metal with the needle scaler, I would use the belt sander or flap wheel sander on an angle grinder to make it smoother.  Int he process of getting off very nasty stuff, the needle scaler can be made to mark the surface of good metal with marks that  will be visible through future paint.     If there is any delay getting the paint on the fresh metal after everything has been cleaned, I would not hesitate to hit it again with the knotted cup brush or flap wheel sander, just to bring it up bright and clean again.      Realistically, with care, even sanding by hand can replace sand blasting, but getting uniformity, to assure good paint adhesion, and getting it done in a reasonable amount of time is the key.   For the bottom of the boat, I would go with the pros and what  the product can and application notes tell me to do.        Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 10, 2016 1:31 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...         After 11 yrs from new I am thinking of sandblasting below the waterline as blisters and some dings etc starting to concern me.  I have been reading here about knotted wire brush, needle scaler and belt sander which is do it yourself stuff but seems not as  good as sandblasting from some comments.  Is that about right?    I did hear back from one sand blast outfit in Sooke ...  $2500 pricey and would prefer do it yourself.   Does not include removal of used sand but seems to include blast material.               |
33732|33730|2016-10-10 16:10:10|Aaron|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Is that with a primer coat applied or only blastingSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 12:31 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       After 11 yrs from new I am thinking of sandblasting below the waterline as blisters and some dings etc starting to concern me.  I have been reading here about knotted wire brush, needle scaler and belt sander which is do it yourself stuff but seems not as good as sandblasting from some comments.  Is that about right?  I did hear back from one sand blast outfit in Sooke ...  $2500 pricey and would prefer do it yourself.   Does not include removal of used sand but seems to include blast material.                                |
33733|33730|2016-10-10 17:03:43|aguysailing|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Aaron.... Once at bare metal, I will immediately apply a coat of wasser tar, let it sit for a day then apply another coat of wasser tar.  After that I apply epoxy cop bottom paint unless I hear something better.  Thanks...Gary|
33734|33730|2016-10-10 19:38:29|Aaron|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Gary Sounds like a good plan you might consider giving your boat a good fresh water scrub before blasting to help lessen chloride contamination.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:03 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       Aaron.... Once at bare metal, I will immediately apply a coat of wasser tar, let it sit for a day then apply another coat of wasser tar.  After that I apply epoxy cop bottom paint unless I hear something better.  Thanks...Gary                            |
33735|33735|2016-10-12 13:14:36|Yves-Marie R. de Tanton|Tanton Yachts shared you a file!!!|                                         Dropbox <strong><br> <font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;line-height:normal;">       Tanton Yacht  </span></font></strong>shared a file with you via Dropbox.<strong><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;line-height:normal;"><br> </span></font></strong> View Document Thanks! - The Dropbox Team    |
33736|33735|2016-10-12 14:46:10|Matt Malone|Re: SPAM!    Was: Tanton Yachts shared you a file|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-2107977516 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       This is a scam of some sort, the link does not lead to dropbox and my browser flagged it as a deceptive site.   Someone with good virus protection or a disposable computer might investigate further if they want.       Matt    Deceptive Site!  This web page at www.gilangeles.com has been reported as a deceptive site and has been blocked based on your security preferences.  Deceptive sites are designed to trick you into doing something dangerous, like installing software, or revealing your personal information, like passwords, phone numbers or credit cards.  Entering any information on this web page may result in identity theft or other fraud.                 <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Yves-Marie R. de Tanton' Tantonyachts@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 12, 2016 1:14 PM <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Tanton Yachts shared you a file!!!                                                                      Dropbox <strong><br> <font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">       Tanton Yacht  </span></font></strong>shared a file with you via Dropbox.<strong><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;"><br> </span></font></strong> View  Document  Thanks! - The Dropbox Team                         |
33737|17169|2016-10-12 15:21:39|arash_salimi2004|boat plans|I am newbi and looking for plans to build a sail boat 36-40 feet by origami methodjust point me to right place thanks|
33738|17169|2016-10-12 15:22:17|brentswain38|Re: boat plans|This is the place. Welcome.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <kiarash.damavand@...> wrote :I am newbi and looking for plans to build a sail boat 36-40 feet by origami methodjust point me to right place thanks|
33739|17169|2016-10-12 15:23:13|brentswain38|Re: boat plans|Metalboatsociety.org is another good source of info.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :This is the place. Welcome.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <kiarash.damavand@...> wrote :I am newbi and looking for plans to build a sail boat 36-40 feet by origami methodjust point me to right place thanks|
33740|33730|2016-10-12 15:35:22|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|The wire brush can simply polish the rust without removing it. Sanding means smoothing it , not what you want for paint adhesion. If you can see needle scaler marks thru the paint or the weld pattern, then the paint is not thick enough. Needle sclaer gives the next best surface to sand blasting, for paint adhesion. Sanding it smooth  would be a mistake.Any chemical etch I have seen,  has been a disaster. A friend sandblasted his boat and used an etch primer before the epoxy. The epoxy fell off in sheets. So he blasted again and put epoxy on the sand blasted steel . No further problems. Primer should be used above the waterline only.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-130060447 #ygrps-yiv-130060447ygrps-yiv-507373196 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Sandblasting is the industry-accepted standard for surface prep for painting.   That means, cost versus time and expected trouble-free service life is optimized.   No doubt there are better processes, chemical etches or something, but they are likely more expensive, or take longer.   Check the directions on what product you are using.   It is nearly certain they will comment on sand blasting, or maybe recommend it.   The knotted cup brush, while indispensable as a tool, is not going to be as good at uniformity over a large surface.   The knotted cup brush also will not chew through very hard, flat paint that is well-adhered, or if so, it does so very slowly.   This is not a problem for farm machinery, trailers, or top-sides, the fresh coat sticks well.  Underwater, I would want it clean and well prepared for good paint adhesion with no patches of questionable compatibility between products.   Rust and brittle paint that has yet to flake may come off easily with a knotted cup brush, but that is not everything.   The knotted cup brush will quickly remove all paint from outside edges.   I might do all the outside edges and leave the panels to other methods.  The belt sander or flap wheel sander on an angle grinder -- I would definitely use this on any area I thought needed more direct attention before sandblasting the rest.The needle scaler I might consider on some really nasty blister areas.  I might use a knotted cup brush on those areas to clean up after the needle scaler, to see what I had knocked off with the needle scaler, and what was still left.   After getting down to clear metal with the needle scaler, I would use the belt sander or flap wheel sander on an angle grinder to make it smoother.  Int he process of getting off very nasty stuff, the needle scaler can be made to mark the surface of good metal with marks that will be visible through future paint.  If there is any delay getting the paint on the fresh metal after everything has been cleaned, I would not hesitate to hit it again with the knotted cup brush or flap wheel sander, just to bring it up bright and clean again.  Realistically, with care, even sanding by hand can replace sand blasting, but getting uniformity, to assure good paint adhesion, and getting it done in a reasonable amount of time is the key.   For the bottom of the boat, I would go with the pros and what the product can and application notes tell me to do.    Matt    <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 10, 2016 1:31 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...  After 11 yrs from new I am thinking of sandblasting below the waterline as blisters and some dings etc starting to concern me.  I have been reading here about knotted wire brush, needle scaler and belt sander which is do it yourself stuff but seems not as good as sandblasting from some comments.  Is that about right?    I did hear back from one sand blast outfit in Sooke ...  $2500 pricey and would prefer do it yourself.   Does not include removal of used sand but seems to include blast material.    |
33741|33735|2016-10-12 15:35:22|Aaron|Re: SPAM!    Was: Tanton Yachts shared you a file|My android came up with the same message Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                             This is a scam of some sort, the link does not lead to dropbox and my browser flagged it as a deceptive site.   Someone with good virus protection or a disposable computer might investigate further if they want.       Matt    Deceptive Site!  This web page at www.gilangeles.com has been reported as a deceptive site and has been blocked based on your security preferences.  Deceptive sites are designed to trick you into doing something dangerous, like installing software, or revealing your personal information, like passwords, phone numbers or credit cards.  Entering any information on this web page may result in identity theft or other fraud.                 <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Yves-Marie R. de Tanton' Tantonyachts@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 12, 2016 1:14 PM <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Tanton Yachts shared you a file!!!                                                      Dropbox <strong><br clear="none"> <font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">       Tanton Yacht  </span></font></strong>shared a file with you via Dropbox.<strong><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;"><br clear="none"> </span></font></strong> View  Document  Thanks! - The Dropbox Team                                            |
33742|33730|2016-10-12 16:28:17|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1689120297 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       A 50 or 80 grit belt on a belt sander does not make "smooth", it makes "more-level", getting rid of bumps and blisters.  A belt sander with a 50 or 80 belt leaves a metal surface very scratched, certainly not smooth.  On the down-side, the scratches are  only in one direction unless one changes orientations on the belt sander.  A belt sander may not be the best surface for all paints in cases.  I would favour whatever is the recommended preparation for the bottom product selected -- there is a good chance  sand-blasting is the manufacturer's recommendation if it is a good industrial product.  I agree, bottom paint should eventually be thick enough to hide needle scaler divots.         Matt        <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 12, 2016 3:35 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...         The wire brush can simply polish the rust without removing it. Sanding means smoothing it , not what you want for paint adhesion. If you can see needle scaler marks thru the paint or the weld pattern, then the paint is not thick enough. Needle sclaer gives  the next best surface to sand blasting, for paint adhesion. Sanding it smooth  would be a mistake. Any chemical etch I have seen,  has been a disaster. A friend sandblasted his boat and used an etch primer before the epoxy. The epoxy fell off in sheets. So he blasted again and put epoxy on the sand blasted steel . No further problems. Primer should be used  above the waterline only.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :    Sandblasting is the industry-accepted standard for surface prep for painting.   That means, cost versus time and expected trouble-free service life is optimized.   No doubt there are better processes, chemical etches or something, but they are likely more  expensive, or take longer.   Check the directions on what product you are using.   It is nearly certain they will comment on sand blasting, or maybe recommend it.       The knotted cup brush, while indispensable as a tool, is not going to be as good at uniformity over a large surface.   The knotted cup brush also will not chew through very hard, flat paint that is well-adhered, or if so, it does so very slowly.   This is  not a problem for farm machinery, trailers, or top-sides, the fresh coat sticks well.  Underwater, I would want it clean and well prepared for good paint adhesion with no patches of questionable compatibility between products.   Rust and brittle paint that  has yet to flake may come off easily with a knotted cup brush, but that is not everything.   The knotted cup brush will quickly remove all paint from outside edges.   I might do all the outside edges and leave the panels to other methods.     The belt sander or flap wheel sander on an angle grinder -- I would definitely use this on any area I thought needed more direct attention before sandblasting the rest.   The needle scaler I might consider on some really nasty blister areas.  I might use a knotted cup brush on those areas to clean up after the needle scaler, to see what I had knocked off with the needle scaler, and what was still left.   After getting down  to clear metal with the needle scaler, I would use the belt sander or flap wheel sander on an angle grinder to make it smoother.  Int he process of getting off very nasty stuff, the needle scaler can be made to mark the surface of good metal with marks that  will be visible through future paint.     If there is any delay getting the paint on the fresh metal after everything has been cleaned, I would not hesitate to hit it again with the knotted cup brush or flap wheel sander, just to bring it up bright and clean again.      Realistically, with care, even sanding by hand can replace sand blasting, but getting uniformity, to assure good paint adhesion, and getting it done in a reasonable amount of time is the key.   For the bottom of the boat, I would go with the pros and what  the product can and application notes tell me to do.        Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 10, 2016 1:31 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...         After 11 yrs from new I am thinking of sandblasting below the waterline as blisters and some dings etc starting to concern me.  I have been reading here about knotted wire brush, needle scaler and belt sander which is do it yourself stuff but seems not as  good as sandblasting from some comments.  Is that about right?    I did hear back from one sand blast outfit in Sooke ...  $2500 pricey and would prefer do it yourself.   Does not include removal of used sand but seems to include blast material.                         |
33743|33730|2016-10-13 00:19:40|opuspaul|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|If you looked at it under a magnifying glass a belt sanded surface (even with 40 grit) would be smooth compared to sand blasting.  Think of it as a series of tiny smooth grooves.   When it comes to paint adhesion and corrosion protection under the waterline, I would not trust a sanded metal surface.  There is really no quick and easy fix.   Only with sandblasting do you really get down into the tiny pits in the surface of the metal.  I was not that impressed by the surface left by my needle scaler.   If I was to try anything other than sandblasting, it would probably be a bristle blaster.  It is what they often use on pipeline welds out in the field.   They are relatively expensive and slow, though.   I am not sure how many heads you would go through doing a whole hull.   Doing a whole hull in a day would probably be impossible but you might find them good alternative to sand blasting for small areas.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXTLYeDY6fIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYpdrfh6AE  Cheers,   Paul|
33744|33730|2016-10-13 18:50:31|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Thicker paint is more critical on topsides paint, as your zincs wont protect you above the waterline, as they do below the waterline.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1339853195 #ygrps-yiv-1339853195ygrps-yiv-2025315707 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}A 50 or 80 grit belt on a belt sander does not make "smooth", it makes "more-level", getting rid of bumps and blisters.  A belt sander with a 50 or 80 belt leaves a metal surface very scratched, certainly not smooth.  On the down-side, the scratches are only in one direction unless one changes orientations on the belt sander.  A belt sander may not be the best surface for all paints in cases.  I would favour whatever is the recommended preparation for the bottom product selected -- there is a good chance sand-blasting is the manufacturer's recommendation if it is a good industrial product.  I agree, bottom paint should eventually be thick enough to hide needle scaler divots.    Matt   |
33745|33619|2016-10-13 19:24:42|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit Coaming Welding|Make your winch bases structurally independent as possible from the coaming. Then 4 or 5  tabs per side should be plenty.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ursus_222@...> wrote : Hello everyone Plan to use tabs on my combings because the interior of the boat is all foamed so trying to do as little hot work as possible, have some 2x2 by 3/16 304 for tabs to bolt the combings down, with a 1/8 gap along the bottom then use caulking to stop most of the water from coming thru, at least from the outside. Any recommendations on the minimum number of tabs on a combing that is about 4' long and will have two winches.Cheers Vic.|
33746|33730|2016-10-13 19:48:05|opuspaul|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|It may not rust as much below the waterline and the zincs may protect you but who wants paint bubbles or pits all over their boat?   Also, electrolysis can be a big problem below the waterline if you ever live in a marina or spend time plugged in to a dock.  The coating system is really not the place to try to save money.  If anything, I would add an extra coat.   The cost of repairing a bad paint job later can be prohibitive, especially if you end up being in an area with limited facilities.   I can see the day coming when environmental rules with their restrictive permits and resource consents prevent you from doing any work yourself.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Thicker paint is more critical on topsides paint, as your zincs wont protect you above the waterline, as they do below the waterline.|
33747|33730|2016-10-13 20:38:34|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-962075683 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Agreed, an extra coat on the bottom is well worth it.   I consider the hassle of bottom work is setting up the boat to get at the entire bottom at once, or change supports to get at all of it, then scraping off all of the old stuff, and prepping the surface  in other ways.   Actually applying product is the easiest part of the entire process and goes very fast.   An extra coat is pretty much just the cost of the additional product.   If it keeps one from having to haul and scrape and whatever for another year,  or 5 years, it is well worth it.     I will buy the microscopic surface explanation of why sandblasting is better than a belt sander.   I will still use a belt sander first to level off bumps, then blast to get a good surface for adhesion.      Matt     <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 13, 2016 7:48 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...         It may not rust as much below the waterline and the zincs may protect you but who wants paint bubbles or pits all over their boat?   Also, electrolysis can be a big problem below the waterline if you ever live in a marina or spend time plugged in to a dock.   The coating system is really not the place to try to save money.  If anything, I would add an extra coat.   The cost of repairing a bad paint job later can be prohibitive, especially if you end up being in an area with limited facilities.   I can see the day  coming when environmental rules with their restrictive permits and resource consents prevent you from doing any work yourself.   Paul    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :  Thicker paint is more critical on topsides paint, as your zincs wont protect you above the waterline, as they do below the waterline.                                             |
33748|33730|2016-10-14 19:35:26|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Thinner entrapment can also cause bubbles, which are more likely, the greater number of coats of paint you put on.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :It may not rust as much below the waterline and the zincs may protect you but who wants paint bubbles or pits all over their boat?   Also, electrolysis can be a big problem below the waterline if you ever live in a marina or spend time plugged in to a dock.  The coating system is really not the place to try to save money.  If anything, I would add an extra coat.   The cost of repairing a bad paint job later can be prohibitive, especially if you end up being in an area with limited facilities.   I can see the day coming when environmental rules with their restrictive permits and resource consents prevent you from doing any work yourself.   Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Thicker paint is more critical on topsides paint, as your zincs wont protect you above the waterline, as they do below the waterline.|
33749|33730|2016-10-14 22:35:22|opuspaul|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Some of the newer high solids, low VOC paints don't seem to have this problem.  I have used PPG/Amerlock 400 and there is relatively little smell or vapor coming off of it as it sets up.  I looked at the data sheet and it is 83% solids.  I am a big fan of the stuff.    In comparison, the old Devoe Barrust 235 I have used in the past really smelled of vapors.  According to the data sheet, it is about 61% solids.I can't think of the name but I have heard of paint almost 100% being used on pipelines.  There are a lot of advantages over the older technology.   I think the big disadvantage, is that they can be harder to apply.https://www.olinepoxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Low-Viscosity-Epoxy-Resin-Creates-Ultra-high-Solids-Protective-Coatings.pdfPaul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Thinner entrapment can also cause bubbles, which are more likely, the greater number of coats of paint you put on.|
33750|33730|2016-10-17 14:36:02|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Perhaps one can reduce the thinner entrapment problem in a twin keeler, by spending a lot of time in drying anchorages, right after painting, to give  the thinners a chance to evaporate . Single keelers can use some of the many natural tide grids one finds in some areas.|
33751|33730|2016-10-17 14:42:51|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-2088786073 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       A natural tide grid?  All I can imagine is a boulder/rock face rising straight up out of flat sand (like a natural quay) on a bay so isolated from wave action so that being against the rock causes less damage during the two transitions than one might  fix within on tide.     Brent could you explain what a natural tide grid is?   Can you give an example of one in a link to an image on the internet?         Thanks,   Matt     <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 17, 2016 2:36 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...         Perhaps one can reduce the thinner entrapment problem in a twin keeler, by spending a lot of time in drying anchorages, right after painting, to give  the thinners a chance to evaporate . Single keelers can use some of the many natural tide grids one finds  in some areas.        |
33752|33730|2016-10-18 15:01:48|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|You got it. On the BC coast, there are plenty of places where you have a rock face alongside a flat sand or gravel beach, in totally protected coves. There are plenty of trees to tie a halyard to. 17 ft to 23 ft tides also help. Anyone cruising here with a single keel should keep an eye out for them, and commit them to memory, for potential  future use.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-468833584 #ygrps-yiv-468833584ygrps-yiv-803017913 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}A natural tide grid?  All I can imagine is a boulder/rock face rising straight up out of flat sand (like a natural quay) on a bay so isolated from wave action so that being against the rock causes less damage during the two transitions than one might fix within on tide. Brent could you explain what a natural tide grid is?   Can you give an example of one in a link to an image on the internet?     Thanks,Matt  <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 17, 2016 2:36 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Sandblast thinking about...  Perhaps one can reduce the thinner entrapment problem in a twin keeler, by spending a lot of time in drying anchorages, right after painting, to give  the thinners a chance to evaporate . Single keelers can use some of the many natural tide grids one finds in some areas.|
33753|33730|2016-10-18 18:29:17|opuspaul|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Brent, if I was to careen my single keel 36 on a sand beach, how high would the water get on the side deck?  Would the water reach the portholes?    I have sheer legs but I think it would be easier to careen the boat and do one side at a time.   The tide is only about 2 to 3 meters here in NZ so you don't have much time to work.   Most of the tide grids  have now been removed by the enviroterrorists and the boat yard cabal  who like to punish anyone who tries to do things on their own.  Thanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :You got it. On the BC coast, there are plenty of places where you have a rock face alongside a flat sand or gravel beach, in totally protected coves. There are plenty of trees to tie a halyard to. 17 ft to 23 ft tides also help. Anyone cruising here with a single keel should keep an eye out for them, and commit them to memory, for potential  future use.me areas.|
33754|33730|2016-10-19 00:32:13|aguysailing|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|This is interesting Dustless Blasting a 61 Foot Steel Boat                             Dustless Blasting a 61 Foot Steel Boat   We followed Deluxe Mobile Dustless Blasting to Galveston, Tx where they blasted a 61 foot steel boat from the waterline down. The whole job was don...              View on www.youtube.com              Preview by Yahoo              |
33755|33730|2016-10-19 18:20:24|opuspaul|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|It looks like wet blasting using a flash rust inhibitor.   Check out  Doug's most excellent site....he has done this himself.    http://svseeker.com/sand_blasting.htm                             http://svseeker.com/sand_blasting.htm               View on svseeker.com          Preview by Yahoo             I have been slowly watching all his videos from the beginning.   Just incredible.  Thanks Doug! SV Seeker                             SV Seeker   From ROV to submarines to building a 74ft steel origami junk rigged motorsailer in our front yard. ...and living the dream.              View on www.youtube.com          Preview by Yahoo              |
33756|33730|2016-10-19 20:13:33|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|One with 5 1/2 inches less freeboard than yours, dried out, and the water came nowhere near the port holes. It will come no higher coming in than it  did going out.It will be slightly  less than it does when heeled at the same angle under sail.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :Brent, if I was to careen my single keel 36 on a sand beach, how high would the water get on the side deck?  Would the water reach the portholes?    I have sheer legs but I think it would be easier to careen the boat and do one side at a time.   The tide is only about 2 to 3 meters here in NZ so you don't have much time to work.   Most of the tide grids have now been removed by the enviroterrorists and the boat yard cabal who like to punish anyone who tries to do things on their own.  Thanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :You got it. On the BC coast, there are plenty of places where you have a rock face alongside a flat sand or gravel beach, in totally protected coves. There are plenty of trees to tie a halyard to. 17 ft to 23 ft tides also help. Anyone cruising here with a single keel should keep an eye out for them, and commit them to memory, for potential  future use.me areas.|
33757|33730|2016-10-19 20:15:55|brentswain38|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|I thought of another paint removal system, which  I have been meaning to try.On wooden boats, they heat the paint with a torch ,  until it softens, then scrape it off. That may work with steel .|
33758|33730|2016-10-21 22:53:56|aguysailing|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|Regarding paint options here is the info I received from International PaintsGood morning Gary, I was forwarded your email from International paints. I work for the distributor on the island, ASCO Ltd.Ideally  you'd be looking at Intershield 300(2 coats) over the blasted steel  hull followed by Intergard 263 tie coat then Interspeed 640 antifouling.  The 263 is optional but does provide the best overall system  performance & adhesion. I've attached some links to the product  sheets....all products can be purchased through ASCO in Victoria and  delivered to you in Port Alberni. Any questions, feel free to email me  or call me at the cell number below in my contact info.Thanks,Bryanhttp://www.international- marine.com/PDS/223-M-eng-A4. pdfhttp://www.international- marine.com/PDS/269-M-eng-usa- A4.pdfhttp://www.international- marine.com/PDS/736-M-eng-A4. pdf|
33759|33730|2016-10-22 02:33:36|jaybeecherbay|Re: Sandblast thinking about...|This is the same paint schedule I used on blasted steel.   The innershield 300 goes on like butter, and sticks to any stainless, or aluminum well too...|
33760|33730|2016-10-24 10:16:59|Matt Malone|Good Books|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-588191922 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       I learned about this book here in this forum and have read most of it:   C.A. Marchaj "Seaworthiness The Forgotten Factor"   The author takes a careful approach to what makes seaworthiness, taking many examples and historical perspectives.   Some people talk of knockdowns as a matter of concern without really going into how it happens.  Others, in contrast, dismiss such things  as "wrong place, wrong time" type of uncontrollable, a fact of life when going into the open ocean, and that worrying or even reading in advance is pointless.   Marchaj spends a lot of time writing about the effect racing rules have had on boat design but about the middle of the book gets into a clear discussion of exactly how boats get knocked down, and how it seems to be quite unexpected at the time.   In particular  he makes it very clear that dynamic stability is an entirely different thing than static stability.  What causes a boat to right itself in flat water can be exactly what causes the boat to get knocked down or roll in a dynamic situation.   He points out that  ultimately, what is more important than static righting moment is the ability of the hull, keel and skeg to dissipate energy to keep energy from building up over a series of oscillations.   Naturally he sees the value in a high value of ultimate stability,  and a small energy in the inverted stability region for quick recovery.  Knockdown is really a misleading term because it causes one to look up for some imagined sudden gigantic force that is pushing the boat over.  I would call it more of a swing-down  where the energy was building for some time and was not recognized until the moment that the energy exceeded the momentarily available restoring energy.  He shows that if energy can build up, in a series of regular waves (fortunately waves are rarely  regular), or in an aerodynamic oscillation (in certain configurations of sail in downwind running), or the boat's restoring capacity is reduced by the reduced effective gravity of partial free-fall at the top of a wave, even a very stable vessel with little  damping can be knocked-down.   To understand this last effect, take a boat in water in a giant bottle, floating on the ocean.  Jostle the bottle to make waves, the boat recovers to a vertical orientation -- this requires there to be gravity.  Take the bottle  into space and what orientation will the boat be in?  Even small reductions in effective gravity are important to boat stability.   Even high, long, rounded swells that seem harmless can impact your boat's capacity to stay standing up in the presence of other  factors.   I found this most interesting.       The book goes into the physics of these things while considering the way hull shape changes these responses, and how, no matter the hull shape certain conditions reduce dynamic stability.   This book has certainly given me a new appreciation of how boats  really work.   What that gains me is something new to consider when I am sailing.   I once had a conversation with a colleague, a physicist.   He and I were discussing students and how they might deduce operations from what is inside a hidden space by envisioning  possibilities, though we did not realize it at first, since we both took this approach for granted.   I asked what could the students possibly be imagining was inside.  He said that was just it, they are not thinking about what is inside at all.  This book  opens the potential for more insight.      While this book does have some equations, most are racing rules equations, meaning, they are completely made up.   No sooner does he provide a rules equation than he shows a hull design intended to exploit the fallacy of the equation, so, no effort should  be expended to understand these racing rules equations.   In fact it seems the first 6 or 7 chapters seem only an excellent lesson in forget all this crap, it is crap, while along the way telling some great history, and getting to the meat of the subject.    He is verbose, and honestly, I have skipped a couple paragraphs at a time in places -- he had adequately convinced me of his point before going into further discussion.   When he gets to the equations arising from experimental science, he gives plenty of  explanation that is very accessible to the layman, and never does mathematical derivations, so there is no need to understand the math yourself.         He also seems to think the shape of my current boat is in the broader class of designs he ascribes better dynamic stability, so reading it made me feel better about my boat choice.   So far in my reading (75% done) he never discusses building methods or  boat materials, or maintenance.  It does not evaluate designs that make construction faster, boats tougher, or maintenance easier.  The material in this book is really additional to what origamiboats normally talks about.   He does not discuss bilge keelers  at all (yet) but I suspect he would have the same thoughts as anyone else:  Sometimes I wish I could have a bilge keeler for the convenience of drying out anywhere, while at other times wishing I could have a deeper keel.  The book definitely understands the  necessity of compromise and the suitability of different hull forms for different priorities.       If anyone else knows of a particularly good book about boats or sailing them or where to go in them, I would certainly be interested in knowing about it.              Matt          <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 22, 2016 2:33 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Sandblast thinking about...         This is the same paint schedule I used on blasted steel.   The innershield 300 goes on like butter, and sticks to any stainless, or aluminum well too...             |
33761|33730|2016-10-24 12:04:50|garyhlucas|Re: Good Books|     I have his first book.  Understanding the physics of sailing has  improved the way I sail, when I sail.  The when is the hard part, my boat  has been a land cruiser for 7 years now!   Gary H. Lucas      <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 24, 2016 10:16 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Good Books           I learned about this book here in this forum and have read most of it:   C.A. Marchaj "Seaworthiness The Forgotten Factor"   The author takes a careful approach to what makes seaworthiness, taking many  examples and historical perspectives.   Some people talk of knockdowns  as a matter of concern without really going into how it happens.  Others,  in contrast, dismiss such things as "wrong place, wrong time" type of  uncontrollable, a fact of life when going into the open ocean, and that worrying  or even reading in advance is pointless.   Marchaj spends a lot of time writing about the effect racing rules have had  on boat design but about the middle of the book gets into a clear discussion of  exactly how boats get knocked down, and how it seems to be quite unexpected at  the time.   In particular he makes it very clear that dynamic  stability is an entirely different thing than static stability.  What  causes a boat to right itself in flat water can be exactly what causes the boat  to get knocked down or roll in a dynamic situation.   He points out  that ultimately, what is more important than static righting moment is the  ability of the hull, keel and skeg to dissipate energy to keep energy from  building up over a series of oscillations.   Naturally he sees the  value in a high value of ultimate stability, and a small energy in the inverted  stability region for quick recovery.  Knockdown is really a  misleading term because it causes one to look up for some imagined sudden  gigantic force that is pushing the boat over.  I would call it more of a  swing-down where the energy was building for some time and was not recognized  until the moment that the energy exceeded the momentarily available restoring  energy.  He shows that if energy can build up, in a series of  regular waves (fortunately waves are rarely regular), or in an aerodynamic  oscillation (in certain configurations of sail in downwind running), or the  boat's restoring capacity is reduced by the reduced effective gravity of partial  free-fall at the top of a wave, even a very stable vessel with little damping  can be knocked-down.   To understand this last effect, take a boat in  water in a giant bottle, floating on the ocean.  Jostle the bottle to make  waves, the boat recovers to a vertical orientation -- this requires there to be  gravity.  Take the bottle into space and what orientation will the boat be  in?  Even small reductions in effective gravity are important to boat  stability.   Even high, long, rounded swells that seem harmless can  impact your boat's capacity to stay standing up in the presence of other  factors.   I found this most interesting.      The book goes into the physics of these things while considering the way hull  shape changes these responses, and how, no matter the hull shape certain  conditions reduce dynamic stability.   This book has certainly given  me a new appreciation of how boats really work.   What that gains me  is something new to consider when I am sailing.   I once had a  conversation with a colleague, a physicist.   He and I were discussing  students and how they might deduce operations from what is inside a hidden space  by envisioning possibilities, though we did not realize it at first, since we  both took this approach for granted.   I asked what could the students  possibly be imagining was inside.  He said that was just it, they are not  thinking about what is inside at all.  This book opens the potential for  more insight.     While this book does have some equations, most are racing rules equations,  meaning, they are completely made up.   No sooner does he provide a  rules equation than he shows a hull design intended to exploit the fallacy of  the equation, so, no effort should be expended to understand these racing rules  equations.   In fact it seems the first 6 or 7 chapters seem only an  excellent lesson in forget all this crap, it is crap, while along the way  telling some great history, and getting to the meat of the subject.    He is verbose, and honestly, I have skipped a couple paragraphs at a time in  places -- he had adequately convinced me of his point before going into further  discussion.   When he gets to the equations arising from experimental  science, he gives plenty of explanation that is very accessible to the layman,  and never does mathematical derivations, so there is no need to understand the  math yourself.        He also seems to think the shape of my current boat is in the broader class  of designs he ascribes better dynamic stability, so reading it made me feel  better about my boat choice.   So far in my reading (75% done) he  never discusses building methods or boat materials, or maintenance.  It  does not evaluate designs that make construction faster, boats tougher, or  maintenance easier.  The material in this book is really additional to what  origamiboats normally talks about.   He does not discuss bilge keelers  at all (yet) but I suspect he would have the same thoughts as anyone else:   Sometimes I wish I could have a bilge keeler for the convenience of drying out  anywhere, while at other times wishing I could have a deeper keel.  The  book definitely understands the necessity of compromise and the suitability of  different hull forms for different priorities.      If anyone else knows of a particularly good book about boats or sailing them  or where to go in them, I would certainly be interested in knowing about  it.           Matt       <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jaybeecherbay@...  [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com><b>Sent:</b> October 22,  2016 2:33 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>  [origamiboats] Re: Sandblast thinking about...          This is the same paint schedule I used on blasted steel.   The  innershield 300 goes on like butter, and sticks to any stainless, or aluminum well too...     |
33762|33730|2016-10-24 14:38:08|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Good Books|Am 24.10.2016 um 16:16 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                             anyone else knows of a particularly good book about boats or sailing them or where to go in them, I would certainly be interested in knowing about it.          I think I already pointed You towards one of his other books, "Sail Performance", that is - I read it several times not only when laying about in the horse latitudes and each time somewhat like You did "Seaworthyness - The Forgiotten Factor": reading along, skipping some parts until some special rigg alerted me to read on some pages, just to come to a halt again when wind picked up again ...Do it till today with this one, as well as with the next one:Henderson, Richard, "Singlehanded Sailing", 2nd edition.None of the other (numerous) books to the same topic I have contain such a plethora of essentials when it comes to useful thoughts and tricks.I do possess another Henderson book I learnt a lot from, it's simply called "Better Sailing" and reads in the second headline "Error Analysis in Sailing and Seamanship". what hits on the spot;traded it in heavily used at a R.I. sailors bibliotheque once in the nineties and am afraid it might not be an amazon-item any more, these days, more an ebuy-one.Somewhat exotic: Peter Noble and Ros Hogbin, "The Mind of the Sailor", an approach to understanding from a more psychological point of view what brings some people to the ocean, and what might bring 'em to set off shortly after they finally have found their pond, and what might happen to their brains and psyches out there ....Thereunto also (again) "Left for Dead" by Nick Ward.In terms of modern materials it would be the standard by the Gougeon Brothers, inventors of West System Epoxies back in the sixties and seventies (while it reads partly like a 400 page manual for their pricy goo) - interesting fact is that those rural redneck-bluecollar boat building lads did in deed a lot of empirical tests together with NASA and some other pretty scholarly folks (M.I.T. et al) to learn about long term stress demeanor of epo and wood (veneer and massive) in comparison to other materials of somewhat more sophistication like carbon and aramide (at least they thought those "more sophisticated" until they saw the results ...).Some of those tests are shown and described in their standard "The Gougeon Brothers on boat construction" and actually brought me back to the wood in my latest degree programme.Last not least George Sigler's "Experiment in Survival", a pretty damn freakish self experiment concerning survival out there, afloat in an inner tube.Back side Text starts: "(Air Force) Lieutenans George Sigler and Charlie Gore left San Francisco in a rubber inflatable with absolutely no water and only six pounds of food to test survival concepts while crossing the Pacific Ocean. ..." (Spoiler alert: They both made it)The other technically interesting books (apart of the notorious Cornells and Bannerots ...) on the shelf are all German or Italian and thus of less interest here, I'm afraid.My favorite (English) Armchair Sailing author would be Peter Tangvald.Cheers G_B.Oh, and in terms of "where to go in them..." : If a destination for little sailing boats should happen to have become already theme of a nice book with pretentious photos of native food and wellgrown brown-ish girls together with detailed descriptions of the "best" anchorages, it usually turns out much wiser to use those descriptions as a No-Go list and stick with the good old mercantile marine pilots to find the places where the flock of credit-card-captains won't pull out Your anchor before they scratchtest Your skirting full length ... at least for Med and Red Sea this was the best way to deal with that.|
33763|33730|2016-10-24 15:08:08|Matt Malone|Re: Good Books|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1024378042 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       I have no time to read an entire shelf of books but if you think you might add one more really good one in German, I would work on my high school German to get through it.      Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 24, 2016 2:38 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Good Books            Am 24.10.2016 um 16:16 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:          anyone else knows of a particularly good book about boats or sailing them or where to go in them, I would certainly be interested in knowing about it.                  I think I already pointed You towards one of his other books, "Sail Performance", that is - I read it several times not only when laying about in the horse latitudes and each time somewhat like You did "Seaworthyness - The Forgiotten Factor": reading along,  skipping some parts until some special rigg alerted me to read on some pages, just to come to a halt again when wind picked up again ...   Do it till today with this one, as well as with the next one:   Henderson, Richard, "Singlehanded Sailing", 2nd edition.   None of the other (numerous) books to the same topic I have contain such a plethora of essentials when it comes to useful thoughts and tricks.   I do possess another Henderson book I learnt a lot from, it's simply called "Better Sailing" and reads in the second headline "Error Analysis in Sailing and Seamanship". what hits on the spot; traded it in heavily used at a R.I. sailors bibliotheque once in the nineties and am afraid it might not be an amazon-item any more, these days, more an ebuy-one.   Somewhat exotic: Peter Noble and Ros Hogbin, "The Mind of the Sailor", an approach to understanding from a more psychological point of view what brings some people to the ocean, and what might bring 'em to set off shortly after they finally have found  their pond, and what might happen to their brains and psyches out there ....   Thereunto also (again) "Left for Dead" by Nick Ward.   In terms of modern materials it would be the standard by the Gougeon Brothers, inventors of West System Epoxies back in the sixties and seventies (while it reads partly like a 400 page manual for their pricy goo) - interesting fact is that those rural  redneck-bluecollar boat building lads did in deed a lot of empirical tests together with NASA and some other pretty scholarly folks (M.I.T. et al) to learn about long term stress demeanor of epo and wood (veneer and massive) in comparison to other materials  of somewhat more sophistication like carbon and aramide (at least they thought those "more sophisticated" until they saw the results ...). Some of those tests are shown and described in their standard "The Gougeon Brothers on boat construction" and actually brought me back to the wood in my latest degree programme.   Last not least George Sigler's "Experiment in Survival", a pretty damn freakish self experiment concerning survival out there, afloat in an inner tube. Back side Text starts: "(Air Force) Lieutenans George Sigler and Charlie Gore left San Francisco in a rubber inflatable with absolutely no water and only six pounds of food to test survival concepts while crossing the Pacific Ocean. ..." (Spoiler alert:  They both made it)   The other technically interesting books (apart of the notorious Cornells and Bannerots ...) on the shelf are all German or Italian and thus of less interest here, I'm afraid.   My favorite (English) Armchair Sailing author would be Peter Tangvald.   Cheers G_B   . Oh, and in terms of "where to go in them..." : If a destination for little sailing boats should happen to have become already theme of a nice book with pretentious photos of native food and wellgrown brown-ish girls together with detailed descriptions  of the "best" anchorages, it usually turns out much wiser to use those descriptions as a No-Go list and stick with the good old mercantile marine pilots to find the places where the flock of credit-card-captains won't pull out Your anchor before they scratchtest  Your skirting full length ... at least for Med and Red Sea this was the best way to deal with that.                |
33764|33730|2016-10-24 16:26:06|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Good Books|;-)To get a pretty complete 'all-in-one' sorta book there was "Die Seemannschaft - Handbuch für den Yachtsport" from Delius Klasing Verlag.There You find it all - I mean: all; really.From clothing and gear to ropehandling to sailrepairs to Yachttypes through the ages to 'which parts of Your boat are essential, and why so?' (for the weekender, of course) to maneuvring and navigation from charts and bearing to 'being outside while knowing where' to tides and what to do with those to storm tactics to all sorts of technical stuff, to weather, first aid/medicine and regatta down to legal and traditional rules for the seafarer, morse-system, flag alphabet and so on and so on.I actually own one 4th edition I inherited from Grandpa, one 15th edition I inherited from my Mom back in '89 and a slightly more actual 25th one I bought myself in 2002 when I started giving serious courses for the more ambitioned weekenders on the Med.They reached their edition No 31 (2016, I looked it up at Delius Klasing, don't get a 30 or even 29 from Amazoom ! ) and it's still THE WORK for the German Yachtsman.http://www.delius-klasing.de/buecher/Seemannschaft.30114.htmlLots of very elaborated special lingo (while those seasonded Frisian salts at the Nordsee and the Baltic really DO talk in this lingo earnestly, a thing we freshwater Bavarians ever since derided heavily, as they derided us for being freshwater-kobolds talking in strange tongues coming from the Alps ... ), lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever since, what I had to proove because I did have to train my wards in some of these, for the German Sailors Association insists in examining those to date before handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic windlasses or broadband Radio...So if havin' THE ONE German book about yachtsports, it would be this.Oh, well, and mandatorily abstain from the E-book version, please: You can't read any of the very good drawings and charts in the E-version, and the encyclopaedic character is lost in E-books: they simply do not work properly in chapters and the E-book doesn't have working side numbers to jump to, either -at least that's what I hear recurrently.It's literally one for the bookshelf.Cheers G_BAm 24.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                              I have no time to read an entire shelf of books but if you think you might add one more really good one in German, I would work on my high school German to get through it.    Matt         |
33765|33730|2016-10-24 17:01:18|Matt Malone|Licence to Operate a Sailboat|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1582597261 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->     Giuseppe Wrote:  >lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming     >from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever     >since, what I had to proove because I did have to train     >my wards in some of these, for the German Sailors     >Association insists in examining those to date before     >handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic     >windlasses or broadband Radio...     Humm... licences to operate a boat.   Canada had no licence for pleasure craft, which I believe included everything < 20m/60ft, not used for a commercial purpose, not carrying paying passengers.  Then they introduced licences for all boats >10hp and all  boats <4m/12ft mainly because of the **** jetskis.   As sailboats can get away with a 9.9hp up to quite a size, a lot of lake sailors did not need a licence.  I think this loophole closed in 2009 or 2011 and now all boat operators need a licence.   Thing is,  it is a JOKE.   Lots of people take it online in an afternoon.   Many more take it in the parking lot of a hardware store in an afternoon.  There are internationally-recognized basic level courses available via the Canadian Power and Sail Squadron, but they  are basic, and not what you describe.  There are more advanced courses offered in cooperation between trade colleges and the Canadian Yachting Association.   My only experience sailing abroad has been in the US where I rented a boat.  They were ready to let  me sail away without even looking at any of my licence cards or course certificates (which I had brought of course).  At the last moment they yelled to me when I was a few boat lengths out from the launch, "show me a gybe", which I did, and they said OK, go  for it.       My question is, in your experience Giuseppe, and others who have done a lot of international sailing, have you been anywhere where there was any serious scrutiny of a sailor's foreign licence -- non commercial, <60ft, no paying passengers.   Serious scrutiny  would be tests or rejection, or placing limits on their movements.       For instance, Toronto Harbour has its own licence that one must pass a test before getting.  One is not allowed into the harbour area without a Toronto Harbour Licence -- I imagine other places might have something similar.     https://www.portstoronto.com/port-of-toronto/permits-and-authorizations/powered-vessel-operator%E2%80%99s-permit.aspx      Is anyone personally familiar with such scrutiny or restrictions internationally?  Matt        <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 24, 2016 4:26 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Good Books            ;-)   To get a pretty complete 'all-in-one' sorta book there was "Die Seemannschaft - Handbuch für den Yachtsport" from Delius Klasing Verlag.   There You find it all - I mean: all; really.   From clothing and gear to ropehandling to sailrepairs to Yachttypes through the ages to 'which parts of Your boat are essential, and why so?' (for the weekender, of course) to maneuvring and navigation from charts and bearing to 'being outside while knowing  where' to tides and what to do with those to storm tactics to all sorts of technical stuff, to weather, first aid/medicine and regatta down to legal and traditional rules for the seafarer, morse-system, flag alphabet and so on and so on.   I actually own one 4th edition I inherited from Grandpa, one 15th edition I inherited from my Mom back in '89 and a slightly more actual 25th one I bought myself in 2002 when I started giving serious courses for the more ambitioned weekenders on the Med.   They reached their edition No 31 (2016, I looked it up at Delius Klasing, don't get a 30 or even 29 from Amazoom ! ) and it's still THE WORK for the German Yachtsman.   http://www.delius-klasing.de/buecher/Seemannschaft.30114.html        Die Seemannschaft: Handbuch für Yachtsport – Delius Klasing  www.delius-klasing.de  Produktbeschreibung. Die Seemannschaft enthält alles, was Sie über das Segeln wissen müssen. Seit mehr als 80 Jahren wird sie – inzwischen bereits in der 31.        Lots of very elaborated special lingo (while those seasonded Frisian salts at the Nordsee and the Baltic really DO talk in this lingo earnestly, a thing we freshwater Bavarians ever since derided heavily, as they derided us for being freshwater-kobolds  talking in strange tongues coming from the Alps ... ), lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever since, what I had to proove because I did have to train my wards in some of these, for  the German Sailors Association insists in examining those to date before handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic windlasses or broadband Radio...   So if havin' THE ONE German book about yachtsports, it would be this.   Oh, well, and mandatorily abstain from the E-book version, please: You can't read any of the very good drawings and charts in the E-version, and the encyclopaedic character is lost in E-books: they simply do not work properly in chapters and the E-book  doesn't have working side numbers to jump to, either -at least that's what I hear recurrently.   It's literally one for the bookshelf.   Cheers G_B       Am 24.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:            I have no time to read an entire shelf of books but if you think you might add one more really good one in German, I would work on my high school German to get through it.      Matt                         |
33766|33730|2016-10-25 07:41:43|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Licence to Operate a Sailboat|That in fact is a pretty difficult topic.First things first: I never was rejected or constrained in any way anywhere in the world with my semi-official German patent coming from Germany's Yacht Sailors Association, while I did have to produce my licenses various times when entering foreign (and strange ..) countries FOR MY OWN singlehanding, each time during the processings in the ports of entry of Turkey, occasionally in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Libanon and Syria as long as You still could go there, while never being asked for a license in Libya (before 2011, of course), Tunisia, Algeria and Maroc.I never showed any license at all in the Indic (East Africa throughout, Maledives, India, Asia) except West Australia, where the harbourmaster in Freemantle once wanted to see who dafuq dared to come down alone from Perth in this blow, nor in the Pacific, where I did some minor transfer sails and local sailing with and without crew in the nineties.I didn't ever show any license either in the Baltic, nor Skandinavia, nor Scotland, Britain or Eire, sailing mostly singlehanded or with small crew upthere aboard lent boats, not chartered ones - only passports and ships papers including crewlist.No need to produce a license entering Greece as a singlehander on his own, so far, or other EU Countries including our newly affilated Balkanian Korruptionistans Slowenia and Kroatia, while I do possess EU-Passports, of course, and don't know what processing means to non EU citicens these days at Schengen-border ports-of-entry.Lot's of things went very awry the last 24 months in Italy, Greece and the Balkanistans due to Syrian mass exodus, excessive drone terrorism in Yemen, the Turkish fake-coup followed by Erdogan's personal Caliphate and some more disturbing deteriorations in terms of increasing religious deviance and a general fail of humanity throughout Middle East and Africa.I every time did have to produce my license as any sort of skipper with people who were not my family on my crewlist, though, for obvious reasons, when migration regularizing and crap like that seemed to possibly be affected - being skipper means being da fool for the regimentals, anytime, anywhere. Usually You have to show licenses before taking shorttime incurances for chartering, and before becoming "skipper-in-charge" contractwise throughout Europe for bigger boats.No licenses needed for local chartering of daysailors as long as You seem to know what'ya doing (... the "show-me-a-gybe!"-kinda thingy).I every time did have to show proper licenses when taking part in regattas even on the inland lakes in Bavaria, Austria, Switzerland and Italy.BUT:EU harmonisation means that any Italian or Swedish, British (oops, those no more, sorry 'bout that...) Dutch, or Kroatian patent are all the same in terms of validity.A Kroatian patent with lots of impressive stamps on several sides still is a thing of a couple free drinks for the harbourmaster even for non-Kroatian speakers, while British (and Dutch) patents tend to be the most exigent ones, due to the tidal navigation You have to mandatorily show being capable of in theory and practice, as far as I know.Greek patents and Italian, Spanish, French as well as Portuguese ones about in the middle together with Germany, while I can't say anything about the eastern Europeans.And there still are our comrades in Malta and Cyprus where rumor has it that You don't even have to be on-site to get any seafarer's patent You ever dreamt of, as long as a valid credit card number is supplied. What I did wasn't just the legal patents, though, but usually a real world sailors instruction to enable my wards of taking charge for their own live and those of their crews as well as their fellow sailors in nearly any conditions to come.Maneuvering a 58'' Beneteau Tupperwareâ„¢ under sails-only in a confined roadstead whilst a gust can quickly turn into a fullgrown nightmare - or being a heap of fun together with a lot of newly gained respect by Your onlookers including officials, depending on whether You know what You do. This ever was the difference I tried to make in my courses: I sometimes would cut the engine when entering a roadstead and wanted to see what they did with this new situation ... forced them into "learning by doing", such to say, usually with great success. Never had one failing.(I once even cut the engine shortly before throwing out a buoy for a simulation of MOB, one of the standard examination points German "officials" want to see processed properly on a regular basis .... was a lot of fun for they did everything in the right way and the right order, so it took 'em less than two minutes to get the buoy back and calmly resume course for the anchorage under sail ... made my day!)Now when it comes to special regional licenses like Your example of Toronto Harbour: some parts of the more crowded ports and seaways in northern Germany are "OFF LIMITS" for pleasure boaters by principle, even sir captain himself wouldn't be allowed to go there by pleasureboat.The term is "traffic separation scheme".Knowledge of traffic separation schemes is part of the German license required to get allowance navigating theses seaways.Only place I know where You do have to pass mandatorily a specialised local exam to get permission to navigate AT ALL is Lake Konstanz between Germany, Austria and Switzerland, three countries with very different ideas when it comes to freedom, civil rights concerning navigation and last not least environmental interests, for Lake Konstanz is the only potable water source for several Million residents what does rectify harsh restrictions in naval activities throughout.When I was a kid and regatta sailing at Lake Konstanz, coming from Chiemsee, we "outsider kids" had to attend one hour in advance each regatta to be able to pass the sailors exam ... which is why I have about fifty different "special Lake Konstanz licenses" for regatta kids at home today ...Cheers G_BAm 24.10.2016 um 23:01 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                             Giuseppe Wrote:>lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming  >from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever  >since, what I had to proove because I did have to train  >my wards in some of these, for the German Sailors  >Association insists in examining those to date before  >handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic  >windlasses or broadband Radio...  Humm... licences to operate a boat.   Canada had no licence for pleasure craft, which I believe included everything < 20m/60ft, not used for a commercial purpose, not carrying paying passengers.  Then they introduced licences for all boats >10hp and all  boats <4m/12ft mainly because of the **** jetskis.   As sailboats can get away with a 9.9hp up to quite a size, a lot of lake sailors did not need a licence.  I think this loophole closed in 2009 or 2011 and now all boat operators need a licence.   Thing is,  it is a JOKE.   Lots of people take it online in an afternoon.   Many more take it in the parking lot of a hardware store in an afternoon.  There are internationally-recognized basic level courses available via the Canadian Power and Sail Squadron, but they  are basic, and not what you describe.  There are more advanced courses offered in cooperation between trade colleges and the Canadian Yachting Association.   My only experience sailing abroad has been in the US where I rented a boat.  They were ready to let  me sail away without even looking at any of my licence cards or course certificates (which I had brought of course).  At the last moment they yelled to me when I was a few boat lengths out from the launch, "show me a gybe", which I did, and they said OK, go  for it.     My question is, in your experience Giuseppe, and others who have done a lot of international sailing, have you been anywhere where there was any serious scrutiny of a sailor's foreign licence -- non commercial, <60ft, no paying passengers.   Serious scrutiny  would be tests or rejection, or placing limits on their movements.     For instance, Toronto Harbour has its own licence that one must pass a test before getting.  One is not allowed into the harbour area without a Toronto Harbour Licence -- I imagine other places might have something similar.   https://www.portstoronto.com/port-of-toronto/permits-and-authorizations/powered-vessel-operator%E2%80%99s-permit.aspx     Is anyone personally familiar with such scrutiny or restrictions internationally?  Matt        <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 24, 2016 4:26 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Good Books           ;-)   To get a pretty complete 'all-in-one' sorta book there was "Die Seemannschaft - Handbuch für den Yachtsport" from Delius Klasing Verlag.   There You find it all - I mean: all; really.   From clothing and gear to ropehandling to sailrepairs to Yachttypes through the ages to 'which parts of Your boat are essential, and why so?' (for the weekender, of course) to maneuvring and navigation from charts and bearing to 'being outside while knowing  where' to tides and what to do with those to storm tactics to all sorts of technical stuff, to weather, first aid/medicine and regatta down to legal and traditional rules for the seafarer, morse-system, flag alphabet and so on and so on.   I actually own one 4th edition I inherited from Grandpa, one 15th edition I inherited from my Mom back in '89 and a slightly more actual 25th one I bought myself in 2002 when I started giving serious courses for the more ambitioned weekenders on the Med.   They reached their edition No 31 (2016, I looked it up at Delius Klasing, don't get a 30 or even 29 from Amazoom ! ) and it's still THE WORK for the German Yachtsman.   http://www.delius-klasing.de/buecher/Seemannschaft.30114.html        Die Seemannschaft: Handbuch für Yachtsport – Delius Klasing  www.delius-klasing.de  Produktbeschreibung. Die Seemannschaft enthält alles, was Sie über das Segeln wissen müssen. Seit mehr als 80 Jahren wird sie – inzwischen bereits in der 31.        Lots of very elaborated special lingo (while those seasonded Frisian salts at the Nordsee and the Baltic really DO talk in this lingo earnestly, a thing we freshwater Bavarians ever since derided heavily, as they derided us for being freshwater-kobolds  talking in strange tongues coming from the Alps ... ), lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever since, what I had to proove because I did have to train my wards in some of these, for  the German Sailors Association insists in examining those to date before handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic windlasses or broadband Radio...   So if havin' THE ONE German book about yachtsports, it would be this.   Oh, well, and mandatorily abstain from the E-book version, please: You can't read any of the very good drawings and charts in the E-version, and the encyclopaedic character is lost in E-books: they simply do not work properly in chapters and the E-book  doesn't have working side numbers to jump to, either -at least that's what I hear recurrently.   It's literally one for the bookshelf.   Cheers G_B       Am 24.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:         I have no time to read an entire shelf of books but if you think you might add one more really good one in German, I would work on my high school German to get through it.    Matt                                                 |
33767|33730|2016-10-29 13:36:35|brentswain38|Re: Licence to Operate a Sailboat|In Canada one can do the pleasure boat operators course online for free. One can do the test at any St Johns ambulance office for $25, far less than the many scamers are charging,and get your license for life.Itr is apoliticla scam to appease the landlubers, who are envious of our freedom.( harassment for harassment's sake) They say that operating a boat is just like operating a car. That is the kind of thinking which gets so many of them in trouble.  If cars could travel for thousands of miles ,without coming within a quarter mile of another vehicle, and rarely  encounter one which did more than 15 miles an hour, could they justify a huge licensing bureaucracy ?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :That in fact is a pretty difficult topic.First things first: I never was rejected or constrained in any way anywhere in the world with my semi-official German patent coming from Germany's Yacht Sailors Association, while I did have to produce my licenses various times when entering foreign (and strange ..) countries FOR MY OWN singlehanding, each time during the processings in the ports of entry of Turkey, occasionally in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Libanon and Syria as long as You still could go there, while never being asked for a license in Libya (before 2011, of course), Tunisia, Algeria and Maroc.I never showed any license at all in the Indic (East Africa throughout, Maledives, India, Asia) except West Australia, where the harbourmaster in Freemantle once wanted to see who dafuq dared to come down alone from Perth in this blow, nor in the Pacific, where I did some minor transfer sails and local sailing with and without crew in the nineties.I didn't ever show any license either in the Baltic, nor Skandinavia, nor Scotland, Britain or Eire, sailing mostly singlehanded or with small crew upthere aboard lent boats, not chartered ones - only passports and ships papers including crewlist.No need to produce a license entering Greece as a singlehander on his own, so far, or other EU Countries including our newly affilated Balkanian Korruptionistans Slowenia and Kroatia, while I do possess EU-Passports, of course, and don't know what processing means to non EU citicens these days at Schengen-border ports-of-entry.Lot's of things went very awry the last 24 months in Italy, Greece and the Balkanistans due to Syrian mass exodus, excessive drone terrorism in Yemen, the Turkish fake-coup followed by Erdogan's personal Caliphate and some more disturbing deteriorations in terms of increasing religious deviance and a general fail of humanity throughout Middle East and Africa.I every time did have to produce my license as any sort of skipper with people who were not my family on my crewlist, though, for obvious reasons, when migration regularizing and crap like that seemed to possibly be affected - being skipper means being da fool for the regimentals, anytime, anywhere. Usually You have to show licenses before taking shorttime incurances for chartering, and before becoming "skipper-in-charge" contractwise throughout Europe for bigger boats.No licenses needed for local chartering of daysailors as long as You seem to know what'ya doing (... the "show-me-a-gybe!"-kinda thingy).I every time did have to show proper licenses when taking part in regattas even on the inland lakes in Bavaria, Austria, Switzerland and Italy.BUT:EU harmonisation means that any Italian or Swedish, British (oops, those no more, sorry 'bout that...) Dutch, or Kroatian patent are all the same in terms of validity.A Kroatian patent with lots of impressive stamps on several sides still is a thing of a couple free drinks for the harbourmaster even for non-Kroatian speakers, while British (and Dutch) patents tend to be the most exigent ones, due to the tidal navigation You have to mandatorily show being capable of in theory and practice, as far as I know.Greek patents and Italian, Spanish, French as well as Portuguese ones about in the middle together with Germany, while I can't say anything about the eastern Europeans.And there still are our comrades in Malta and Cyprus where rumor has it that You don't even have to be on-site to get any seafarer's patent You ever dreamt of, as long as a valid credit card number is supplied. What I did wasn't just the legal patents, though, but usually a real world sailors instruction to enable my wards of taking charge for their own live and those of their crews as well as their fellow sailors in nearly any conditions to come.Maneuvering a 58'' Beneteau Tupperwareâ„¢ under sails-only in a confined roadstead whilst a gust can quickly turn into a fullgrown nightmare - or being a heap of fun together with a lot of newly gained respect by Your onlookers including officials, depending on whether You know what You do. This ever was the difference I tried to make in my courses: I sometimes would cut the engine when entering a roadstead and wanted to see what they did with this new situation ... forced them into "learning by doing", such to say, usually with great success. Never had one failing.(I once even cut the engine shortly before throwing out a buoy for a simulation of MOB, one of the standard examination points German "officials" want to see processed properly on a regular basis .... was a lot of fun for they did everything in the right way and the right order, so it took 'em less than two minutes to get the buoy back and calmly resume course for the anchorage under sail ... made my day!)Now when it comes to special regional licenses like Your example of Toronto Harbour: some parts of the more crowded ports and seaways in northern Germany are "OFF LIMITS" for pleasure boaters by principle, even sir captain himself wouldn't be allowed to go there by pleasureboat.The term is "traffic separation scheme".Knowledge of traffic separation schemes is part of the German license required to get allowance navigating theses seaways.Only place I know where You do have to pass mandatorily a specialised local exam to get permission to navigate AT ALL is Lake Konstanz between Germany, Austria and Switzerland, three countries with very different ideas when it comes to freedom, civil rights concerning navigation and last not least environmental interests, for Lake Konstanz is the only potable water source for several Million residents what does rectify harsh restrictions in naval activities throughout.When I was a kid and regatta sailing at Lake Konstanz, coming from Chiemsee, we "outsider kids" had to attend one hour in advance each regatta to be able to pass the sailors exam ... which is why I have about fifty different "special Lake Konstanz licenses" for regatta kids at home today ...Cheers G_BAm 24.10.2016 um 23:01 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   Giuseppe Wrote:>lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming  >from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever  >since, what I had to proove because I did have to train  >my wards in some of these, for the German Sailors  >Association insists in examining those to date before  >handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic  >windlasses or broadband Radio...Humm... licences to operate a boat.   Canada had no licence for pleasure craft, which I believe included everything < 20m/60ft, not used for a commercial purpose, not carrying paying passengers.  Then they introduced licences for all boats >10hp and all boats <4m/12ft mainly because of the **** jetskis.   As sailboats can get away with a 9.9hp up to quite a size, a lot of lake sailors did not need a licence.  I think this loophole closed in 2009 or 2011 and now all boat operators need a licence.   Thing is, it is a JOKE.   Lots of people take it online in an afternoon.   Many more take it in the parking lot of a hardware store in an afternoon.  There are internationally-recognized basic level courses available via the Canadian Power and Sail Squadron, but they are basic, and not what you describe.  There are more advanced courses offered in cooperation between trade colleges and the Canadian Yachting Association.   My only experience sailing abroad has been in the US where I rented a boat.  They were ready to let me sail away without even looking at any of my licence cards or course certificates (which I had brought of course).  At the last moment they yelled to me when I was a few boat lengths out from the launch, "show me a gybe", which I did, and they said OK, go for it.   My question is, in your experience Giuseppe, and others who have done a lot of international sailing, have you been anywhere where there was any serious scrutiny of a sailor's foreign licence -- non commercial, <60ft, no paying passengers.   Serious scrutiny would be tests or rejection, or placing limits on their movements.   For instance, Toronto Harbour has its own licence that one must pass a test before getting.  One is not allowed into the harbour area without a Toronto Harbour Licence -- I imagine other places might have something similar. https://www.portstoronto.com/port-of-toronto/permits-and-authorizations/powered-vessel-operator%E2%80%99s-permit.aspx  Is anyone personally familiar with such scrutiny or restrictions internationally?  Matt   <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> October 24, 2016 4:26 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Good Books   ;-)To get a pretty complete 'all-in-one' sorta book there was "Die Seemannschaft - Handbuch für den Yachtsport" from Delius Klasing Verlag.There You find it all - I mean: all; really.From clothing and gear to ropehandling to sailrepairs to Yachttypes through the ages to 'which parts of Your boat are essential, and why so?' (for the weekender, of course) to maneuvring and navigation from charts and bearing to 'being outside while knowing where' to tides and what to do with those to storm tactics to all sorts of technical stuff, to weather, first aid/medicine and regatta down to legal and traditional rules for the seafarer, morse-system, flag alphabet and so on and so on.I actually own one 4th edition I inherited from Grandpa, one 15th edition I inherited from my Mom back in '89 and a slightly more actual 25th one I bought myself in 2002 when I started giving serious courses for the more ambitioned weekenders on the Med.They reached their edition No 31 (2016, I looked it up at Delius Klasing, don't get a 30 or even 29 from Amazoom ! ) and it's still THE WORK for the German Yachtsman.http://www.delius-klasing.de/buecher/Seemannschaft.30114.html Die Seemannschaft: Handbuch für Yachtsport – Delius Klasing www.delius-klasing.de Produktbeschreibung. Die Seemannschaft enthält alles, was Sie über das Segeln wissen müssen. Seit mehr als 80 Jahren wird sie – inzwischen bereits in der 31.Lots of very elaborated special lingo (while those seasonded Frisian salts at the Nordsee and the Baltic really DO talk in this lingo earnestly, a thing we freshwater Bavarians ever since derided heavily, as they derided us for being freshwater-kobolds talking in strange tongues coming from the Alps ... ), lots of very traditional maneuvering techniques coming from tall ships, which definitely DO work like they did ever since, what I had to proove because I did have to train my wards in some of these, for the German Sailors Association insists in examining those to date before handing over any licences, no matter GPS or hydraulic windlasses or broadband Radio...So if havin' THE ONE German book about yachtsports, it would be this.Oh, well, and mandatorily abstain from the E-book version, please: You can't read any of the very good drawings and charts in the E-version, and the encyclopaedic character is lost in E-books: they simply do not work properly in chapters and the E-book doesn't have working side numbers to jump to, either -at least that's what I hear recurrently.It's literally one for the bookshelf.Cheers G_BAm 24.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:  I have no time to read an entire shelf of books but if you think you might add one more really good one in German, I would work on my high school German to get through it.  Matt    |
33768|33768|2016-10-30 13:27:22|arash_salimi2004|DVD set on origami steel boat building|Does anybody know about the "DVD set on origami steel boat building" By Alex Christie's or actually "Keith Christie northcanoe@..." ?I have send them 54 $ on  Oct 20 and so far they have not even respond to my 3 emails's that I send them !!!. Cheers |
33769|33769|2016-10-30 13:27:29|arash_salimi2004|Alex Christie's DVD set|Does Any had ordered this DVD set ? I have sent payment thru his website http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ to achristie@... and it ended to another account northcanoe@... or Keith Christie and after sending him 4 email with no respond. any one had the same experience?Cheers |
33770|33768|2016-10-30 13:33:14|brentswain38|Re: DVD set on origami steel boat building|He may be travelling in Asia ,the home of his wife.Somwe places are out of contact; not everyione spends his entire life close to email contact. I certainly don't.I just sent him an email. |
33771|33769|2016-10-30 13:39:01|don bourgeois|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|            <!--#ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694ACTIVITY 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 .ygrps-yiv-1899681694ATTACH 	{display:table;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 div.ygrps-yiv-1899681694photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694PHOTOS div 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694PHOTOS div div 	{overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694PHOTOS div label 	{overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694YGRP-MLMSG 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694YGRP-MLMSG table 	{font-size:inherit;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694YGRP-MLMSG pre 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 code 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1899681694 #ygrps-yiv-1899681694ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important; 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I have sent payment thru his website http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ to achristie@... and it ended to another account northcanoe@... or Keith Christie and after sending him 4 email with no respond. any one had the same experience?          Cheers                                 |
33772|33769|2016-11-01 17:39:20|brentswain38|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|I just got an email from Alex. He said he has been having technical problems producing the DVDs right, so he has taken them  off the market for the moment, and has sent back any money he has been sent.Posties can be slow, so don't panic..Hope he can get it working again soon, that was an extremely valuable source of info.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <donb1234@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712ACTIVITY 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 .ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712ATTACH 	{display:table;} #ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 div.ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 div.ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712file-title 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#ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 {font-family:Symbol;} #ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 ol 	{margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1907410794 #ygrps-yiv-1907410794ygrps-yiv-997367712 ul 	{margin-bottom:0in;}He'll send it don't worry.  <b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ]  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 30, 2016 11:21 AM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [origamiboats] Alex Christie's DVD set    Does Any had ordered this DVD set ? I have sent payment thru his website http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ to achristie@... and it ended to another account northcanoe@... or Keith Christie and after sending him 4 email with no respond. any one had the same experience?  Cheers     |
33773|33769|2016-11-02 02:59:04|Hannu Venermo|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|                   If anyone has a set, they can be duplicated for == 10$ in any place,     and just send a payment directly to Alex ?          Note:     Burnt DVDs do not last for more thena few years.     Make IMG or image files on a hard drive.               On 01/11/2016 22:39,       brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:                  I just got an email from Alex. He said he has been having         technical problems producing the DVDs right, so he has taken         them  off the market for the moment, and has sent back any money         he has been sent.         Posties can be slow, so don't panic..         Hope he can get it working again soon, that was an extremely         valuable source of info.                                ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <donb1234@...>         wrote :                                          He'll                   send it don't worry.                                          --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33774|33769|2016-11-02 12:30:55|Matt Malone|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-855869872 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Nothing lasts forever.  Usually 3-5 years of active use is all that can be expected.   If things are powered off and put on a shelf, then decades are possible, depending on the media and storage environment.  Only electronically stored data, backed up on  multiple media, on a regular cycle, where there is also regular media replacement, can possibly have an indefinite life.          Matt        <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 2, 2016 2:52 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Alex Christie's DVD set         If anyone has a set, they can be duplicated for == 10$ in any place, and just send a payment directly to Alex ?  Note: Burnt DVDs do not last for more thena few years. Make IMG or image files on a hard drive.    On 01/11/2016 22:39,  brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:    I just got an email from Alex. He said he has been having technical problems producing the DVDs right, so he has taken them  off the market for the moment, and has sent back any money he has been sent. Posties can be slow, so don't panic.. Hope he can get it working again soon, that was an extremely valuable source of info.    ---In  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com,  <donb1234@...> wrote :    He'll send it don't worry.      --  -hanermo (cnc designs)           |
33775|33769|2016-11-02 12:51:52|Hannu Venermo|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|                    NAH..     I specifically referred to self-burnt DVDs .. that do wear out quite     quickly, on their own, on the shelf.          Likely due to poor coatings vs factory made DVDs for example.     Or perhaps lack of post-processing.          Dont know the real reason, but do know/have observed that "burnt"     DVDs don´t really last very long, in general.               On 02/11/2016 17:30, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                  Nothing lasts forever.  Usually 3-5 years of active use is all         that can be expected.   If things are powered off and put on a         shelf, then decades are possible, depending on the media and         storage environment.  Only electronically stored data, backed up         on multiple media, on a regular cycle, where there is also         regular media replacement, can possibly have an indefinite life.                                                 Matt                                                                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Alex Christie's DVD set                                                                                       If anyone has a set, they can be duplicated for ==                   10$ in any place, and just send a payment directly to                   Alex ?                                      Note:                   Burnt DVDs do not last for more thena few years.                   Make IMG or image files on a hard drive.                                                                      --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33776|33769|2016-11-02 13:05:07|Matt Malone|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-634929477 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->     Yes, you are right  writable CDs / DVDs do not last as long particularly if the temperatures are above room temperature.  The higher the temperature, the faster they expire.    I was just trying to cut to the end of the discussion, the best long term storage.      Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 2, 2016 12:51 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Alex Christie's DVD set         NAH.. I specifically referred to self-burnt DVDs .. that do wear out quite quickly, on their own, on the shelf.  Likely due to poor coatings vs factory made DVDs for example. Or perhaps lack of post-processing.  Dont know the real reason, but do know/have observed that "burnt" DVDs don´t really last very long, in general.    On 02/11/2016 17:30, Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:    Nothing lasts forever.  Usually 3-5 years of active use is all that can be expected.   If things are powered off and put on a shelf, then decades are possible, depending on the media and storage environment.  Only electronically stored data, backed up on  multiple media, on a regular cycle, where there is also regular media replacement, can possibly have an indefinite life.          Matt       <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Alex Christie's DVD set         If anyone has a set, they can be duplicated for == 10$ in any place, and just send a payment directly to Alex ?  Note: Burnt DVDs do not last for more thena few years. Make IMG or image files on a hard drive.        --  -hanermo (cnc designs)           |
33777|33769|2016-11-02 21:43:59|opuspaul|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|After several years in the tropics, almost every music CD I had started skipping or going bad.  It wasn't the player either.   On some of the CDs you could see fine lines growing like a spider web in the surface of the CDs.   I was told it was a fungus and it seems to be quite common. |
33778|33769|2016-11-03 00:48:50|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|Wouldn't it be possible to dump the homebrewed DVD-thingy and find a more 21-century solution, like streaming the lot from anywhere One gets access to after One's payment had arrived (like any other pornsite works, too), or share it from a sharing platform of some kind?just my 0.02 $I'd definitely be interested in getting this as well, by the way.Cheers G_BAm 01.11.2016 um 22:39 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                          I just got an email from Alex. He said he has been having technical problems producing the DVDs right, so he has taken them  off the market for the moment, and has sent back any money he has been sent.Posties can be slow, so don't panic..Hope he can get it working again soon, that was an extremely valuable source of info.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <donb1234@...> wrote :He'll send it don't worry.  <b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ]  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 30, 2016 11:21 AM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [origamiboats] Alex Christie's DVD set    Does Any had ordered this DVD set ? I have sent payment thru his website http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ to achristie@... and it ended to another account northcanoe@... or Keith Christie and after sending him 4 email with no respond. any one had the same experience?  Cheers                               |
33779|33769|2016-11-03 06:12:00|Hannu Venermo|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|The vast majority of the world, about 99.x% of all users *globally*, do  not have sufficiently fast, low-latency internet for reliable good  quality on-demand streaming of video content. Any buffered solution would work, of course, like a bittorrent fileshare.  However, I do not and did not advocate ripping off the work of alex.  From my pov, paying him and getting electronic delivery makes sense.  Any content bought, must (for reliability, security, convenience) and  should reside on your own systems in whatever source you find convenient.  I have not used a dvd for years, apart from copying our marriage video  and watching it about a week ago with my wife, a special exception.  The content restriction crap does not work.. it is mostly extremely inconvenient, mostly, does not support common  tools/formats like phablets, tvs, android phones etc..  And is easily bypassed in any of numerous ways, easy not-blockable being  to grab it from a digital-video outlet and recording it in whatever  format one prefers.  I would advocate light small visible watermarking of each delivery with  the buyers name.   On 03/11/2016 05:48, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...  [origamiboats] wrote:  > > Wouldn't it be possible to dump the homebrewed DVD-thingy and find a  > more 21-century solution, like streaming the lot from anywhere One  > gets access to after One's payment had arrived (like any other  > pornsite works, too), or share it from a sharing platform of some kind? > > > just my 0.02 $ > > I'd definitely be interested in getting this as well, by the way. > > Cheers G_B   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)|
33780|33769|2016-11-03 13:08:21|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|I did not suggest to rip Alex's content, either, did I ?  Seemingly I suggested to find a DVD-less solution for retail of the lot, just to get rid of the dinosaur-technique "DVD", being a relic from times when the Yankees barely had reached the moon, figuratively put.  As far as I'm concerned, my crappy Bavarian (german) province internet is enough to rip putlocker nick-tv and things like that most of the "am" hours of the day, with restraints in times the 55-salesmen-wholesale-neighbour is in online-ordering mode, so I'd well appreciate any way to get it onto my harddrive, including DVD, through grapevine or homer, and I'd rather send bills for it to abstain from paypal.  I don't know whether in a community as specialized and as tiny as "origamiboats" the ripping problem really is that monstrous kind of an issue, but if so: I didn't aim towards this, honestly. (... and wouldn't spread it, either).  Cheers G_B     Am 03.11.2016 um 11:06 schrieb Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]:   > The vast majority of the world, about 99.x% of all users *globally*, do  > not have sufficiently fast, low-latency internet for reliable good  > quality on-demand streaming of video content. > Any buffered solution would work, of course, like a bittorrent fileshare. >  > However, I do not and did not advocate ripping off the work of alex. > From my pov, paying him and getting electronic delivery makes sense. >  > Any content bought, must (for reliability, security, convenience) and  > should reside on your own systems in whatever source you find convenient. >  > I have not used a dvd for years, apart from copying our marriage video  > and watching it about a week ago with my wife, a special exception. >  > The content restriction crap does not work.. > it is mostly extremely inconvenient, mostly, does not support common  > tools/formats like phablets, tvs, android phones etc.. >  > And is easily bypassed in any of numerous ways, easy not-blockable being  > to grab it from a digital-video outlet and recording it in whatever  > format one prefers. >  > I would advocate light small visible watermarking of each delivery with  > the buyers name. >  >  > On 03/11/2016 05:48, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@...  > [origamiboats] wrote: >>  >> Wouldn't it be possible to dump the homebrewed DVD-thingy and find a  >> more 21-century solution, like streaming the lot from anywhere One  >> gets access to after One's payment had arrived (like any other  >> pornsite works, too), or share it from a sharing platform of some kind? >>  >>  >> just my 0.02 $ >>  >> I'd definitely be interested in getting this as well, by the way. >>  >> Cheers G_B >  > --  > -hanermo (cnc designs) >  >  >  > ------------------------------------ >  > ------------------------------------ >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------ >  > Yahoo Groups Links >  >  > |
33781|33781|2016-11-04 10:46:36|prairiemaidca|AGYsailing|     Agysailing can I contact you about your hull pictures that you had posted awhile back.  I can't seem to figure out this site at all to get email address for the members since they changed it all around, the original set up was very easy.  Martin (Prairie Maid)...|
33782|33782|2016-11-07 10:37:41|jpronk1|Speed|Just wondering the hull speeds people are getting under sail and under power of their Brent Swain boats and what size engines you have in your boat as well as the transmission you are using? Thank you, James Pronk  Sent from my iPhone|
33783|33782|2016-11-07 14:24:32|prairiemaidca|Re: Speed|Prairie Maid will move along nicely at around 6 Knots if there is a reasonable breeze.  We motor at 6 knots at 2900 rpm with our Izuzu 54 hp. diesel and 3 blade campbell sailor prop.  Our gear is a hearth with a 10 degree down angle and a 3.7 to one reduction.  We seem to be burning around 3/4 of a imperial gallon of fuel at that RPM.   We can motor at just over 6.5 knots but the extra rpm and fuel consumption doesn't seem worth it.  Martin...|
33784|33784|2016-11-07 17:04:34|cwalker79w|Looking for YAGO 31 plans|Hi all,Does anyone have in their files somewhere the Yago 31 plans? I cannot contact Mr. Muller and the website is now dead (has been for years).  Looks like a awesome little boat and I would love to get ahold of the plans. Please contact me if you can help me out.Regards|
33785|33769|2016-11-07 17:09:18|brentswain38|Re: Alex Christie's DVD set|Alex is working on improvements.Now that his regular work has slowed down, he has more time for it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :Wouldn't it be possible to dump the homebrewed DVD-thingy and find a more 21-century solution, like streaming the lot from anywhere One gets access to after One's payment had arrived (like any other pornsite works, too), or share it from a sharing platform of some kind?just my 0.02 $I'd definitely be interested in getting this as well, by the way.Cheers G_BAm 01.11.2016 um 22:39 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   I just got an email from Alex. He said he has been having technical problems producing the DVDs right, so he has taken them  off the market for the moment, and has sent back any money he has been sent.Posties can be slow, so don't panic..Hope he can get it working again soon, that was an extremely valuable source of info.|
33786|33784|2016-11-08 09:10:09|mkriley48|Re: Looking for YAGO 31 plans|I would be very interested alsomike|
33787|33784|2016-11-08 11:50:22|Mario Jorge Andrade|Re: Looking for YAGO 31 plans|Hi.You can download from the link below.That's all the stuff I collected, including the files Mr. Muller sent to me, a long time ago.Sorry if there's some duplicated files.It's a 18MB zip file.I hope it helps.[]'sMJhttp://www.mediafire.com/file/8jp2e8j41qxx86c/Yago_31.zip2016-11-06 0:19 GMT-02:00 cwalker79w@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                Hi all,Does anyone have in their files somewhere the Yago 31 plans? I cannot contact Mr. Muller and the website is now dead (has been for years).  Looks like a awesome little boat and I would love to get ahold of the plans. Please contact me if you can help me out.Regards                                        |
33788|33788|2016-11-08 15:23:36|smallboatvoyaguer|What to spray foam| When I spray foam, should I go just below the waterline, or all the way to the edge of the bilge? Also, I plan on living in my boat through winters, which here get to be -20 Fahrenheit on the extreme end, but can average around 0 Fahrenheit for weeks on end. So I am wondering if i should go thicker with my insulation to compensate for this added coldness, in order to alleviate condensation issues. Thoughts? |
33789|33789|2016-11-08 15:25:42|smallboatvoyaguer|Fully weld chine doublers?|Are the chine doublers fully welded, or stitch welded? Seems to me they should be fully welded.|
33790|33784|2016-11-09 15:53:09|John Riehl|Re: Looking for YAGO 31 plans|<!-- #ygrps-yiv-1917952551    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551   #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 p.ygrps-yiv-1917952551MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 li.ygrps-yiv-1917952551MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 div.ygrps-yiv-1917952551MsoNormal 	{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 a:link, #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 span.ygrps-yiv-1917952551MsoHyperlink 	{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 a:visited, 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#ygrps-yiv-1917952551 p.ygrps-yiv-1917952551underline1, #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 li.ygrps-yiv-1917952551underline1, #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 div.ygrps-yiv-1917952551underline1 	{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 span.ygrps-yiv-1917952551yshortcuts1 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 span.ygrps-yiv-1917952551yshortcuts2 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 span.ygrps-yiv-1917952551EmailStyle37 	{font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 .ygrps-yiv-1917952551MsoChpDefault 	{font-size:10.0pt;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 div.ygrps-yiv-1917952551WordSection1 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Symbol;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:"Courier New";}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 ol 	{margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1917952551 ul 	{margin-bottom:0in;} -->This is fantastic…thanks. Do you by chance have anything on the daggerboards?  John  <b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;'>From:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:50 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Looking for YAGO 31 plans    Hi.You can download from the link below.That's all the stuff I collected, including the files Mr. Muller sent to me, a long time ago.Sorry if there's some duplicated files.It's a 18MB zip file.I hope it helps.[]'sMJhttp://www.mediafire.com/file/8jp2e8j41qxx86c/Yago_31.zip  2016-11-06 0:19 GMT-02:00 cwalker79w@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:   Hi all,  Does anyone have in their files somewhere the Yago 31 plans? I cannot contact Mr. Muller and the website is now dead (has been for years).  Looks like a awesome little boat and I would love to get ahold of the plans. Please contact me if you can help me out.  Regards  |
33791|33784|2016-11-10 16:08:10|Mario Jorge Andrade|Re: Looking for YAGO 31 plans|Unfortunately not, John.That´s all I have.[]´sMJ2016-11-09 18:45 GMT-02:00 'John Riehl' riehlj2002@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    <u></u>                                                This is fantastic…thanks. Do you by chance have anything on the daggerboards?<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u>John<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:50 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Looking for YAGO 31 plans<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u>  <u></u><u></u>Hi.You can download from the link below.That's all the stuff I collected, including the files Mr. Muller sent to me, a long time ago.Sorry if there's some duplicated files.It's a 18MB zip file.I hope it helps.[]'s<u></u><u></u>MJhttp://www.mediafire.com/file/ 8jp2e8j41qxx86c/Yago_31.zip<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u>2016-11-06 0:19 GMT-02:00 cwalker79w@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> :<u></u><u></u>  <u></u><u></u>Hi all,<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u>Does anyone have in their files somewhere the Yago 31 plans? I cannot contact Mr. Muller and the website is now dead (has been for years).  Looks like a awesome little boat and I would love to get ahold of the plans. Please contact me if you can help me out.<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u>Regards<u></u><u></u><u></u> <u></u><u></u><u></u>                                        |
33792|33782|2016-11-10 17:10:12|Aethiopicus|Re: Speed|You can push it to about 7.5 knots with the engine at full and under  sail off the wind you can get 7.5 pretty easy with plenty of wind. 5-6  are more common and more manageable. I've pushed it up towards the 8-9  knot range but the stern just gets buried, waves flowing into the  scuppers and flooding the cockpit sole and just too squirrelly. It's  hard to really get an accurate speed reading though around here as  theres almost always a knot or so of current everywhere around here or  more, so it's kinda a guess. usually once the speed goes above 7.5 you  start to feel the steering get a little harder the boat will start to  broach more easily.  I've got a isuzu c240 with a zf25a hydraulically actuated 2:1 I'd prefer  to have 3:1 but that's what was for sale. and a 14"x14" - which is a bit  too small.|
33793|33789|2016-11-10 18:06:51|brentswain38|Re: Fully weld chine doublers?|Yes chine doublers must be fully welded to  keep any air and thus corrosion out.They must be airtight. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :Are the chine doublers fully welded, or stitch welded? Seems to me they should be fully welded.|
33794|33788|2016-11-10 18:13:06|brentswain38|Re: What to spray foam|You should sprayfoam right to the floor boards, but not in the bilges. Insulating the undersides of the floor boards, and carpet on top, insulates that part well enough.Going thicker on foam is always a good idea.It could make your boat unsinkable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : When I spray foam, should I go just below the waterline, or all the way to the edge of the bilge? Also, I plan on living in my boat through winters, which here get to be -20 Fahrenheit on the extreme end, but can average around 0 Fahrenheit for weeks on end. So I am wondering if i should go thicker with my insulation to compensate for this added coldness, in order to alleviate condensation issues. Thoughts? |
33795|33782|2016-11-10 20:45:20|opuspaul|Re: Speed|I meant to answer this but missed it.....here goes.As long as I wasn't hard on the wind or on a dead run, I used to sail at 6 knots in 12 knots of wind on my BS 36 foot single keeler.  I struggle to do that now with my tired out old mainsail.   I have twice gone over 1000 miles in just over 6 days.  This was largely close or beam reaching using a huge over-lapping genoa.  This genoa was great on a  reach and the reason for some fast passages but very poor to windward.  On one of the passages I left a day later but still caught up and passed a 65 footer and beat him to port by night.  On the other passage, I was close hauled in a sloppy sea and passed a Fantasia 35 in 12 hours despite them leaving two days before me.  The fat and heavy Fantasia was just hobby horsing and couldn't make any progress against the trade wind slop.  This has convinced more than anything of the need of having a boat that cut through seas and sail to windward.  I have hit 8 to 9 knots under sail many times.  The max speed I have ever seen is 11 knots but I had some waves and probably some current helping me.  Those ideal conditions only lasted a few hours.  If I can generalize, I normally sail up with the typically heavily loaded 42 to 45 foot cruisers.  I am loaded down too with a 90 gallon fuel tank and a 120 gallon water tank and plenty of books so I think this is excellent.    The wind is never like you read about in the books.  It  seems all I get is either El-Nino or La-Nina.   I think anyone who thinks it is all downwind has never been offshore in the Pacific.   When I sailed from Canada to Fiji in 96-97, I had only 8 days with the wind aft of the beam.   I am still waiting for a  classic downwind trip in the trades to see what she can really do. I think performance under sail has a lot to do with how well a boat steers.  The windvane self steering gear keeps the boat on a rail, with the tell-tales hardly flickering.  I use the windvane most of the time but sometimes I find that a electronic pilot does better.   A windvane may not hold you to the wind but if the wind is variable it is better to just go straight at a slower speed and follow a compass rather than follow every wind shift and add to the distance sailed.   I met one guy who arrived in tears in Samoa.....his boat yawed 20 to 30 degrees all across the Pacific.  He had almost totally given up on his windvane and was mentally and physically exhausted from having to handsteer.You can have a huge variety of engine and prop combinations.  Each one is a compromise.  I have a 3 cylinder 35 hp Isuzu with a 1.5 to 1 gearbox and turn a small 14 x 10  two bladed prop.  I like this combination since the prop has very little drag under sail.  This would not be ideal for the light wind, current and narrow passes of British Columbia but I think it works well in the islands offshore.  If I spent all my time in BC, I would probably go with a 2 to 1 gearbox and swing a bigger 3 blade prop.    35 hp is enough power to punch into a head sea and run a 100 amp alternator at the same time.   If I am in a lot of wind and wave yet I still wish to motor to windward, I sheet my main in tight and then fall off until it is just filled.  It is surprising how fast you can go this way.  If it is flat water, I motor at 5 knots and 2100 rpm and use relatively little fuel.  Going at 6.5 or 7 knots would probably double fuel consumption.  I have motored for 4 or 5 days straight when there was no wind.  The only time I shut the engine off was to check the levels.    I would rather motor than flap around going nowhere for days or weeks.I originally had a larger and coarser 3 blade prop but it was too much for the engine and gearbox combination.   It blew a lot of smoke and used just as much fuel even though I was only turning at about 1600 rpm.  A lot of boats have the wrong prop.  It is better and more efficient to run your engine at the best part of it's torque curve.  With a good engine, you shouldn't be blowing smoke and shouldn't have too much soot on the transom.   It took me many years to figure this out.   If a prop is too small, you don't load the engine enough and end up glazing or polishing the cylinders.   You see this a lot on boats that run their engine all the time just to charge batteries.  They end up ruining their engine.   They would be much better off spending some money on some solar panels.   If you run your engine, it is best to really work it.https://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Boreglazing.aspx Cheers, Paul|
33796|33784|2016-11-11 08:15:33|riehlj2002|Re: Looking for YAGO 31 plans|Ok, thanks!  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Mario Jorge Andrade mariojorgeandrade@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 4:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Looking for YAGO 31 plans     Unfortunately not, John. That´s all I have. []´s MJ  2016-11-09 18:45 GMT-02:00 'John Riehl' riehlj2002@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    This is fantastic…thanks. Do you by chance have anything on the daggerboards?   John   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]  Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Looking for YAGO 31 plans      Hi. You can download from the link below. That's all the stuff I collected, including the files Mr. Muller sent to me, a long time ago. Sorry if there's some duplicated files. It's a 18MB zip file. I hope it helps. []'s MJ http://www.mediafire.com/file/8jp2e8j41qxx86c/Yago_31.zip   2016-11-06 0:19 GMT-02:00 cwalker79w@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>:    Hi all,   Does anyone have in their files somewhere the Yago 31 plans? I cannot contact Mr. Muller and the website is now dead (has been for years).  Looks like a awesome little boat and I would love to get ahold of the plans. Please contact me if you can help me out.   Regards        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
33797|33797|2016-11-12 12:29:53|jaybeecherbay|Anchor inventory BS 36'|Could I please get some feed back on what size anchors others are using?I am in the market for two anchors one to be a primary, and one back up anchor.I was thinking one rocna 20 kg, or 25kg.and the other a danforth, or mantus.cheers Jay.|
33798|33797|2016-11-12 18:05:24|brentswain38|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|Carry lots of anchors. Make some diassembleable .They are easy to lose. I once went to Tahiti with 7 and came home with 5.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :Could I please get some feed back on what size anchors others are using?I am in the market for two anchors one to be a primary, and one back up anchor.I was thinking one rocna 20 kg, or 25kg.and the other a danforth, or mantus.cheers Jay.|
33799|33797|2016-11-12 19:36:20|brentswain38|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|I have cruised a lot with two 55 lb deltas and one 35 lb delta. Lost one 55 pounder at Penrhyn, Cook Islands, but still have a spare 30 lb danforth. With the anchor winch, it doesn't make much difference what is in use. so go big, and sleep well, in gale.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :Could I please get some feed back on what size anchors others are using?I am in the market for two anchors one to be a primary, and one back up anchor.I was thinking one rocna 20 kg, or 25kg.and the other a danforth, or mantus.cheers Jay.|
33800|33797|2016-11-12 20:23:08|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|        I have made one dissassembleable, but I was wondering, does your book contain your designs?   And if so, can you remind everyone how to get your book?  Matt    From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, November 12, 18:05 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor inventory BS 36' To: brentswain38@... [origamiboats]       Carry lots of anchors. Make some diassembleable .They are easy to lose. I once went to Tahiti with 7 and came home with 5.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :  Could I please get some feed back on what size anchors others are using?   I am in the market for two anchors one to be a primary, and one back up anchor.   I was thinking one rocna 20 kg, or 25kg.  and the other a danforth, or mantus.   cheers Jay.       |
33801|33797|2016-11-12 20:45:39|opuspaul|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|I agree 100% with Brent. Get a big and powerful anchor winch and go big or go home.  You will sleep better.I used a 45 pound plow as my #1 anchor for years.  It would work 98% of the time but it let me down a couple of times.   I would dive on it sometimes and be surprised how it was just hooked on a small rock by the tip and not dug in properly.  After a few scares, I started putting a 22 pound danforth shackled to it with a short 25 foot chain if I was in doubt or a storm was coming.   A danforth really holds well in soft mud and will penetrate some bottoms where a plow will just skip along the surface.   This is the anchor I normally kept on the stern with poly line on  a hose reel and easy to handle by hand.   When retrieving, I just pull it all in until the primary anchor is on the roller and then reach down with a boat hook and grab the chain to the lighter danforth.   I never dragged with this setup but when I got to NZ I kept my eyes on the used market and eventually got a more modern 65 pound design made out of Australia called an Ex-cel.   It was only $200 NZ.   To buy one new would have been extremely expensive.   I should have done it earlier.   There is really no comparison between the newer generation anchors and the old plows.  http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.phphttp://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-excel-anchorIf I put out two anchors, I always put them together in tandem as shown here.   http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php  The holding power is much higher, it is easier to deploy and you don't get any tangles.   Since there is never more than one line going over the roller, I don't see the need for two rollers.   I would rather have one large bow roller that works really well than two small bow rollers.So my total anchor inventory is the 65 pound Ex-cel, my old 45 pound plow, a 22 pound danforth kept on the stern ready for an emergency hook, a bolt together 85 pound SS danforth I made as a hurricane anchor and another smaller danforth I have never used.   This would be minimum for long term cruising in the tropics.   Having dive capability is an real asset.   I lost an anchor once during a screw up but was I was able to dive down and get it back later.  I have had to dive down and unsnag anchor lines from coral heads more than once.  I always try to keep one dive tank full for this purpose.   I keep some old rigging and anchor cable with a large eye on each end that I can shackle around a coral head or tree if need be.  This would be good in a cyclone or hurricane.   Make sure you always carry a lot of shackles of different sizes.If I was doing it again, I would probably not make the big 85 pound danforth and consider making a Bulwagga copy to store down below in case of cyclones.    The big danforth is great and probably saved my a$$ a couple of times but it is awkward to use and stow.  The Bulwagga is a very simple design that has tested well in sand and mud.  I think it would be very easy to make a big bolt together version out of flat plate and angle.  The big downside with them is they don't go on a bow roller.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :I have cruised a lot with two 55 lb deltas and one 35 lb delta. Lost one 55 pounder at Penrhyn, Cook Islands, but still have a spare 30 lb danforth. With the anchor winch, it doesn't make much difference what is in use. so go big, and sleep well, in gale.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :Could I please get some feed back on what size anchors others are using?I am in the market for two anchors one to be a primary, and one back up anchor.I was thinking one rocna 20 kg, or 25kg.and the other a danforth, or mantus.cheers Jay.|
33802|33797|2016-11-12 22:57:07|opuspaul|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|I should say I am a big fan of the Sarca Ex-cel but not a fan of the Super Sarca.  I don't think it is robust enough. I think it would end up being twisted like a pretzel.Danforth and Fortress are great anchors but are hard to use on a bow roller.   They can als snag anchor lines and trip out if you swing.I have never used and have nothing against the other modern anchors like the Spade, Rocna or Manson Supreme.  I would get the one that is the best deal or build your own.   Doug of submarine boat/ SV Seeker built some modern anchors.  A good and inspiring video.http://svseeker.com/anchors.htmBuilding Boat Anchors                             Building Boat Anchors   Many thanks to Peter from Atlanta, for helping complete the anchors. Plans for these anchors and other ground tackle ideas are here: http://svseeker.com/anc...              View on www.youtube.com              Preview by Yahoo                |
33803|33797|2016-11-13 11:32:31|Aethiopicus|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|I would start in the 35lbs and up range 25 pounds of any anchor other  than a danforth or something with big flukes like that just isn't gonna  hold, and I'm not recommending danforths. Put a 25lbs delta on the bow  and you'll see it right away. I've a 45 delta and a 35 claw. I'd love to have something like a 50  rocna or something. I've got a 25 danforth as well but it's hardly worth  mentioning, oh and I've a big 70lbs cqr thing I sleep over top of every  night, maybe some day I'll pull it out from beneath the bed.|
33804|33797|2016-11-13 17:21:20|brentswain38|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|My book has the sail plan and specs on all my designs. For a copy, please send $20, pus $5 for Canadian postage, $10 for US postage,or $20 for overseas airmail postage , to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0I remember reading an article on a guy who built himself a steel 35 footer.   He also built a 135 lb anchor, which he disassembled and stowed in the bilge. When a hurricane came along , he assembled it , set it, then watched boats drag by him ,until his was the only boat left in the anchorage. Then he went to bed.One use was all  it took to justify it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote : I have made one dissassembleable, but I was wondering, does your book contain your designs?   And if so, can you remind everyone how to get your book? Matt |
33805|33797|2016-11-13 17:58:13|brentswain38|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|Great post1 The excel looks like a delta copy.I prefer double rollers, so I can have an extra anchor ready to go quickly, in an emergency. I found that 3 inches is minimum for  roller width, which lets me keep two anchors side by side, ready to go any time.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :I agree 100% with Brent. Get a big and powerful anchor winch and go big or go home.  You will sleep better.I used a 45 pound plow as my #1 anchor for years.  It would work 98% of the time but it let me down a couple of times.   I would dive on it sometimes and be surprised how it was just hooked on a small rock by the tip and not dug in properly.  After a few scares, I started putting a 22 pound danforth shackled to it with a short 25 foot chain if I was in doubt or a storm was coming.   A danforth really holds well in soft mud and will penetrate some bottoms where a plow will just skip along the surface.   This is the anchor I normally kept on the stern with poly line on  a hose reel and easy to handle by hand.   When retrieving, I just pull it all in until the primary anchor is on the roller and then reach down with a boat hook and grab the chain to the lighter danforth.   I never dragged with this setup but when I got to NZ I kept my eyes on the used market and eventually got a more modern 65 pound design made out of Australia called an Ex-cel.   It was only $200 NZ.   To buy one new would have been extremely expensive.   I should have done it earlier.   There is really no comparison between the newer generation anchors and the old plows.  http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.phphttp://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-excel-anchorIf I put out two anchors, I always put them together in tandem as shown here.   http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php  The holding power is much higher, it is easier to deploy and you don't get any tangles.   Since there is never more than one line going over the roller, I don't see the need for two rollers.   I would rather have one large bow roller that works really well than two small bow rollers.So my total anchor inventory is the 65 pound Ex-cel, my old 45 pound plow, a 22 pound danforth kept on the stern ready for an emergency hook, a bolt together 85 pound SS danforth I made as a hurricane anchor and another smaller danforth I have never used.   This would be minimum for long term cruising in the tropics.   Having dive capability is an real asset.   I lost an anchor once during a screw up but was I was able to dive down and get it back later.  I have had to dive down and unsnag anchor lines from coral heads more than once.  I always try to keep one dive tank full for this purpose.   I keep some old rigging and anchor cable with a large eye on each end that I can shackle around a coral head or tree if need be.  This would be good in a cyclone or hurricane.   Make sure you always carry a lot of shackles of different sizes.If I was doing it again, I would probably not make the big 85 pound danforth and consider making a Bulwagga copy to store down below in case of cyclones.    The big danforth is great and probably saved my a$$ a couple of times but it is awkward to use and stow.  The Bulwagga is a very simple design that has tested well in sand and mud.  I think it would be very easy to make a big bolt together version out of flat plate and angle.  The big downside with them is they don't go on a bow roller.Cheers, Paul|
33806|33797|2016-11-13 21:06:24|opuspaul|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|The Ex-cel looks a lot like a Delta but when you put them side by side you will see that there are quite a few subtle differences.  It tests much better than a Delta.http://www.anchorright.com.au/certification/Robertsons-TATS-AnchorTestChart.pdfhttp://www.anchorright.com.au/about-us/faqI only have one anchor on the bow but always keep a second 25 pound danforth anchor handy on the stern.  I can drop it on a moments notice.  I use polypropylene line (it floats so it won't get in your prop) on a hose reel with about 25 feet of 5/16 inch (8 mm) chain.   This should hold me until I can get another larger anchor over the bow.  It is relatively light and easy to handle.   I have only used it a few times.   Most of the time I have used the poly line  as a good and handy tow line or as a line ashore to a tree or piling.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Great post1 The excel looks like a delta copy.I prefer double rollers, so I can have an extra anchor ready to go quickly, in an emergency. I found that 3 inches is minimum for  roller width, which lets me keep two anchors side by side, ready to go any time. |
33808|33807|2016-11-14 02:11:13|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|I'd stuck with a tested system or do some real trials before - if bothering in the bilge at all; trustworthy industrial grade paint, unlike bare resins which are meant to be mixed by Yourself with different fillers and add-ons, is a readily composed goo with certain amounts of different ingredients working together in specified ways, usually thoroughly tested by the original "mixer" aka producer.It might seem to work with more "powder" of any kind added beforehand, but some of the other properties You were shootin' at might be considerably reduced or even ruined with the new component.Doesn't have to be this way, though, but needs some extended initial testing.Would turn out as quite a nasty chore do be forced replacing the bilge coating anytime midseason afterwards, wouldn't it?watch out for poorly constructed details in Your living area including lockers, though; steadily dripping overhead condensation around hatches and coamings (and other metal parts penetrating to the cold side) usually is much more of a problem than bilges, following my experience;roaming the southern Atlantic on a tiny steel one-off we had to wrap towels around every hatchframe (which were all freshly caulked and sealed during routine overhaul before setsail) and replace those at least with every change of watch for really heavy dripping condensation, depending on outside temps (down to 3 deg C with water down to 7 deg C) - while the bilges were bone dry all nine weeks of partly hard sailing; six to eight hours a day heating with different systems (diesel burning bus-heater as well as gen-set coolant or engine coolant through radiators in saloon and fore peak) made temperatures bearable inside, but condensation caused mould in every nook and locker; my dinnerjacket had changed from dark blue to greenly white when I was about to attend an official yachtsclub souper of the brit'sh kind in Cape Town at the end of this crossing. I developed a tedious asthma bronchiale some years ago, which my pneumologist blames partly to longterm exposure to different kinds of mildew. (other factors: solvents and resins and wood dust and welding fumes I might have inhaled for years while working as a boatbuilder; thus, proper ventilation all time warmly recommended while working inside One's hull)So this sort of condensation isn't chilld's play, given You plan to live aboard in other than caribbean climates for longer periods.Just my 0.02 bucks.Cheers G_BAm 14.11.2016 um 04:56 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:                          Looking to paint any exposed steel in the bilge, and engine beds with anti condensation paint.  Can one make there own by just adding ceramics, or glass bubbles to their bilge paint?  or other options?thanks again everyone,                          |
33809|33809|2016-11-14 13:24:11|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-2000580287 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Jay, you say glass bubbles so you know the difference between solid glass spheres and hollow glass spheres.  For everyone else, you want hollow.   There would also be a component in the paint that is like anti-fogging for eyeglasses and dive masks.  So,  adding these two together, no, I don't think you could make it as good.       Second, how good can this paint be?  How much thermal insulation can paint provide?  Ever think of epoxy-gluing in ceramic tiles in your bilge?   A thick coat of epoxy will inhibit rust.  Just based on being 100 times thicker, it seems a well-selected tile  should do at least the same job.   Throw glass bubbles in the epoxy -- it will be more thermally insulating, and easier to apply thickly.  Use assorted left-over tiles from a job-site and add character to the swamp.  Throw in mood-lighting an a gold fish....       Third, a bilge that condenses is a good thing.  It makes a natural de-humidifier for the boat.   Hot moist air in the cabin cools in the bilge, losing water, and heating again in the cabin to be hot dry air.  If you pump the bilge, net, you are pumping water  out of the air of the boat.   If your bilge does not condense, something else will, like your bedroll or mattress.  Condensing in the bilge reduces the mold everywhere else.   The bilge is a mess to clean, but how do you clean the mold from the inside of a  mattress?  Or anywhere else?  I would be inclined to mould a 1-liter oil-can sized dent into the bottom of the bilge / top of the ballast and put a little submersible automatic bilge pump in it so that the water in the bilge is kept at a minimum.  Also, a  hydrophilic surface, one that likes water, does not make it bead, will run off faster and more completely, and dry more quickly when condensing conditions pass.  Look at the plastic vs. the ceramic plates in your dishwasher -- which one beads the water, and  which one is dry faster.       The bilge will swallow a gallon of bleach a lot cheaper and easier than any other solution to dehumidification and mold-control.      My $0.02.   Matt    <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 13, 2016 10:56 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles          Looking to paint any exposed steel in the bilge, and engine beds with anti condensation paint.  Can one make there own by just adding ceramics, or glass bubbles to their bilge paint?  or other options?   thanks again everyone,         |
33810|33807|2016-11-14 16:13:12|brentswain38|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|Tried the ceramic bubbles; some help but 1/16th inch of foam was far more effective. Insulating paint is grossly overrated---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :I'd stuck with a tested system or do some real trials before - if bothering in the bilge at all; trustworthy industrial grade paint, unlike bare resins which are meant to be mixed by Yourself with different fillers and add-ons, is a readily composed goo with certain amounts of different ingredients working together in specified ways, usually thoroughly tested by the original "mixer" aka producer.It might seem to work with more "powder" of any kind added beforehand, but some of the other properties You were shootin' at might be considerably reduced or even ruined with the new component.Doesn't have to be this way, though, but needs some extended initial testing.Would turn out as quite a nasty chore do be forced replacing the bilge coating anytime midseason afterwards, wouldn't it?watch out for poorly constructed details in Your living area including lockers, though; steadily dripping overhead condensation around hatches and coamings (and other metal parts penetrating to the cold side) usually is much more of a problem than bilges, following my experience;roaming the southern Atlantic on a tiny steel one-off we had to wrap towels around every hatchframe (which were all freshly caulked and sealed during routine overhaul before setsail) and replace those at least with every change of watch for really heavy dripping condensation, depending on outside temps (down to 3 deg C with water down to 7 deg C) - while the bilges were bone dry all nine weeks of partly hard sailing; six to eight hours a day heating with different systems (diesel burning bus-heater as well as gen-set coolant or engine coolant through radiators in saloon and fore peak) made temperatures bearable inside, but condensation caused mould in every nook and locker; my dinnerjacket had changed from dark blue to greenly white when I was about to attend an official yachtsclub souper of the brit'sh kind in Cape Town at the end of this crossing. I developed a tedious asthma bronchiale some years ago, which my pneumologist blames partly to longterm exposure to different kinds of mildew. (other factors: solvents and resins and wood dust and welding fumes I might have inhaled for years while working as a boatbuilder; thus, proper ventilation all time warmly recommended while working inside One's hull)So this sort of condensation isn't chilld's play, given You plan to live aboard in other than caribbean climates for longer periods.Just my 0.02 bucks.Cheers G_BAm 14.11.2016 um 04:56 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:   Looking to paint any exposed steel in the bilge, and engine beds with anti condensation paint.  Can one make there own by just adding ceramics, or glass bubbles to their bilge paint?  or other options?thanks again everyone,|
33811|33807|2016-11-14 16:14:24|brentswain38|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|Worth doing in the bilge but not elsewhere.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Tried the ceramic bubbles; some help but 1/16th inch of foam was far more effective. Insulating paint is grossly overrated---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :I'd stuck with a tested system or do some real trials before - if bothering in the bilge at all; trustworthy industrial grade paint, unlike bare resins which are meant to be mixed by Yourself with different fillers and add-ons, is a readily composed goo with certain amounts of different ingredients working together in specified ways, usually thoroughly tested by the original "mixer" aka producer.It might seem to work with more "powder" of any kind added beforehand, but some of the other properties You were shootin' at might be considerably reduced or even ruined with the new component.Doesn't have to be this way, though, but needs some extended initial testing.Would turn out as quite a nasty chore do be forced replacing the bilge coating anytime midseason afterwards, wouldn't it?watch out for poorly constructed details in Your living area including lockers, though; steadily dripping overhead condensation around hatches and coamings (and other metal parts penetrating to the cold side) usually is much more of a problem than bilges, following my experience;roaming the southern Atlantic on a tiny steel one-off we had to wrap towels around every hatchframe (which were all freshly caulked and sealed during routine overhaul before setsail) and replace those at least with every change of watch for really heavy dripping condensation, depending on outside temps (down to 3 deg C with water down to 7 deg C) - while the bilges were bone dry all nine weeks of partly hard sailing; six to eight hours a day heating with different systems (diesel burning bus-heater as well as gen-set coolant or engine coolant through radiators in saloon and fore peak) made temperatures bearable inside, but condensation caused mould in every nook and locker; my dinnerjacket had changed from dark blue to greenly white when I was about to attend an official yachtsclub souper of the brit'sh kind in Cape Town at the end of this crossing. I developed a tedious asthma bronchiale some years ago, which my pneumologist blames partly to longterm exposure to different kinds of mildew. (other factors: solvents and resins and wood dust and welding fumes I might have inhaled for years while working as a boatbuilder; thus, proper ventilation all time warmly recommended while working inside One's hull)So this sort of condensation isn't chilld's play, given You plan to live aboard in other than caribbean climates for longer periods.Just my 0.02 bucks.Cheers G_BAm 14.11.2016 um 04:56 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:   Looking to paint any exposed steel in the bilge, and engine beds with anti condensation paint.  Can one make there own by just adding ceramics, or glass bubbles to their bilge paint?  or other options?thanks again everyone,|
33812|33807|2016-11-14 16:29:29|Aaron|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|Try looking at what this product will do for water repellent Strategic Visionary Solutions, LLC                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Strategic Visionary Solutions, LLC                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 3:14 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       Worth doing in the bilge but not elsewhere.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Tried the ceramic bubbles; some help but 1/16th inch of foam was far more effective. Insulating paint is grossly overrated---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :I'd stuck with a tested system or do some real trials before - if bothering in the bilge at all; trustworthy industrial grade paint, unlike bare resins which are meant to be mixed by Yourself with different fillers and add-ons, is a readily composed goo with certain amounts of different ingredients working together in specified ways, usually thoroughly tested by the original "mixer" aka producer.It might seem to work with more "powder" of any kind added beforehand, but some of the other properties You were shootin' at might be considerably reduced or even ruined with the new component.Doesn't have to be this way, though, but needs some extended initial testing.Would turn out as quite a nasty chore do be forced replacing the bilge coating anytime midseason afterwards, wouldn't it?watch out for poorly constructed details in Your living area including lockers, though; steadily dripping overhead condensation around hatches and coamings (and other metal parts penetrating to the cold side) usually is much more of a problem than bilges, following my experience;roaming the southern Atlantic on a tiny steel one-off we had to wrap towels around every hatchframe (which were all freshly caulked and sealed during routine overhaul before setsail) and replace those at least with every change of watch for really heavy dripping condensation, depending on outside temps (down to 3 deg C with water down to 7 deg C) - while the bilges were bone dry all nine weeks of partly hard sailing; six to eight hours a day heating with different systems (diesel burning bus-heater as well as gen-set coolant or engine coolant through radiators in saloon and fore peak) made temperatures bearable inside, but condensation caused mould in every nook and locker; my dinnerjacket had changed from dark blue to greenly white when I was about to attend an official yachtsclub souper of the brit'sh kind in Cape Town at the end of this crossing. I developed a tedious asthma bronchiale some years ago, which my pneumologist blames partly to longterm exposure to different kinds of mildew. (other factors: solvents and resins and wood dust and welding fumes I might have inhaled for years while working as a boatbuilder; thus, proper ventilation all time warmly recommended while working inside One's hull)So this sort of condensation isn't chilld's play, given You plan to live aboard in other than caribbean climates for longer periods.Just my 0.02 bucks.Cheers G_BAm 14.11.2016 um 04:56 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:  Looking to paint any exposed steel in the bilge, and engine beds with anti condensation paint.  Can one make there own by just adding ceramics, or glass bubbles to their bilge paint?  or other options?thanks again everyone,                            |
33813|33807|2016-11-15 16:57:38|brentswain38|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|With 3/4 inch wood over my forehatch coaming ,I had  condensation on the wood, and the galv plate behind it rusted out. So I replaced the plate with a stainless coaming and put 1/4 inch etha foam over it. That eliminated  the problem totally.Vents made of 4 inch stainless tubing  rained condensation, so I tried the ceramic beads in paint combo. That eliminated the condensation, in normal conditions, but it still rained condensation when I cooked. I found some 1/16th foam in a ditch, so I lined the pipe with that, which completely eliminated the condensation, even when cooking or  canning. It was far more effective than ceramic beads, by a wide margin.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Worth doing in the bilge but not elsewhere.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Tried the ceramic bubbles; some help but 1/16th inch of foam was far more effective. Insulating paint is grossly overrated---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :I'd stuck with a tested system or do some real trials before - if bothering in the bilge at all; trustworthy industrial grade paint, unlike bare resins which are meant to be mixed by Yourself with different fillers and add-ons, is a readily composed goo with certain amounts of different ingredients working together in specified ways, usually thoroughly tested by the original "mixer" aka producer.It might seem to work with more "powder" of any kind added beforehand, but some of the other properties You were shootin' at might be considerably reduced or even ruined with the new component.Doesn't have to be this way, though, but needs some extended initial testing.Would turn out as quite a nasty chore do be forced replacing the bilge coating anytime midseason afterwards, wouldn't it?watch out for poorly constructed details in Your living area including lockers, though; steadily dripping overhead condensation around hatches and coamings (and other metal parts penetrating to the cold side) usually is much more of a problem than bilges, following my experience;roaming the southern Atlantic on a tiny steel one-off we had to wrap towels around every hatchframe (which were all freshly caulked and sealed during routine overhaul before setsail) and replace those at least with every change of watch for really heavy dripping condensation, depending on outside temps (down to 3 deg C with water down to 7 deg C) - while the bilges were bone dry all nine weeks of partly hard sailing; six to eight hours a day heating with different systems (diesel burning bus-heater as well as gen-set coolant or engine coolant through radiators in saloon and fore peak) made temperatures bearable inside, but condensation caused mould in every nook and locker; my dinnerjacket had changed from dark blue to greenly white when I was about to attend an official yachtsclub souper of the brit'sh kind in Cape Town at the end of this crossing. I developed a tedious asthma bronchiale some years ago, which my pneumologist blames partly to longterm exposure to different kinds of mildew. (other factors: solvents and resins and wood dust and welding fumes I might have inhaled for years while working as a boatbuilder; thus, proper ventilation all time warmly recommended while working inside One's hull)So this sort of condensation isn't chilld's play, given You plan to live aboard in other than caribbean climates for longer periods.Just my 0.02 bucks.Cheers G_BAm 14.11.2016 um 04:56 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:   Looking to paint any exposed steel in the bilge, and engine beds with anti condensation paint.  Can one make there own by just adding ceramics, or glass bubbles to their bilge paint?  or other options?thanks again everyone,|
33814|33809|2016-11-15 21:16:11|jaybeecherbay|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|thanks everyone.  I am using a product made in washington. by "coating solutions"Need Title                             Need Title   Need Description              View on coatingsolution.com          Preview by Yahoo             ASCO in victoria has an aluminum skiff in their shop that they coated the inside of the boat with this ceramic insulation paint, and they filled it with ice.  4 hours later there was no condensation, and the temp of the outside was barely cold.  could be snake oil, but with a test like this it seems to work well.  I am using this in the bilge, around coamings, and can be painted over with another product for easier cleaning.  Also for those interested in foam carving techniques, I am using an angle grinder with a knotted wire brush attachment.  works really well.  no dust just rice sized shavings that fall quick.  lots of control, quick, and a nice finish.  tried different blades, and jap saws, but nothing is easier than this.J.|
33815|33809|2016-11-16 12:47:17|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|I might have misunderstood the experimental arrangement, but having ice on the same side of the steel plating as the insulation paint is not at all what You're interested in, especially not in comfy outside climate.Covering the deck under ca. 20 cm of snow or ice in an overall outside temperature around 2 to 4 deg C while cooking/boiling water INSIDE the very same hull which is also heated up to comfy 21 deg C is what You're keen on seeing. The fact that condensation is happening on surfaces where Your temperature falls under the relative dew point means: as long as there happens condensation within a hull filled partly with ice, this condensation will mostly (or only, depending on hull-temperature) happen on the ice-surface itself with being the coldest surface obviously, and presumably nowhere on hull plates bordering towards a warmer outside.Cheers G_BAm 16.11.2016 um 03:16 schrieb jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats]:                          thanks everyone.  I am using a product made in washington. by "coating solutions"Need Title                             Need Title   Need Description              View on coatingsolution.com          Preview by Yahoo             ASCO in victoria has an aluminum skiff in their shop that they coated the inside of the boat with this ceramic insulation paint, and they filled it with ice.  4 hours later there was no condensation, and the temp of the outside was barely cold.  could be snake oil, but with a test like this it seems to work well.  I am using this in the bilge, around coamings, and can be painted over with another product for easier cleaning.  Also for those interested in foam carving techniques, I am using an angle grinder with a knotted wire brush attachment.  works really well.  no dust just rice sized shavings that fall quick.  lots of control, quick, and a nice finish.  tried different blades, and jap saws, but nothing is easier than this.J.                          |
33816|33809|2016-11-16 15:52:08|brentswain38|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|Be prepared to foam when that fails.A friend used one of those reciprocating cutters for shaving his foam off, and had very little dust.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :thanks everyone.  I am using a product made in washington. by "coating solutions"Need Title       Need Title Need Description    View on coatingsolution.com     Preview by Yahoo  ASCO in victoria has an aluminum skiff in their shop that they coated the inside of the boat with this ceramic insulation paint, and they filled it with ice.  4 hours later there was no condensation, and the temp of the outside was barely cold.  could be snake oil, but with a test like this it seems to work well.  I am using this in the bilge, around coamings, and can be painted over with another product for easier cleaning.  Also for those interested in foam carving techniques, I am using an angle grinder with a knotted wire brush attachment.  works really well.  no dust just rice sized shavings that fall quick.  lots of control, quick, and a nice finish.  tried different blades, and jap saws, but nothing is easier than this.J.|
33817|33809|2016-11-16 16:13:15|Aaron|Re: Bilge Paint, adding ceramic, or glass bubbles|Someone used a ceramic hollow   bead add in product several years ago. was it the fellow from Washington or Oregon, he built a BS26 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:52 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       Be prepared to foam when that fails.A friend used one of those reciprocating cutters for shaving his foam off, and had very little dust.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :thanks everyone.  I am using a product made in washington. by "coating solutions"Need Title       Need Title Need Description    View on coatingsolution.com     Preview by Yahoo  ASCO in victoria has an aluminum skiff in their shop that they coated the inside of the boat with this ceramic insulation paint, and they filled it with ice.  4 hours later there was no condensation, and the temp of the outside was barely cold.  could be snake oil, but with a test like this it seems to work well.  I am using this in the bilge, around coamings, and can be painted over with another product for easier cleaning.  Also for those interested in foam carving techniques, I am using an angle grinder with a knotted wire brush attachment.  works really well.  no dust just rice sized shavings that fall quick.  lots of control, quick, and a nice finish.  tried different blades, and jap saws, but nothing is easier than this.J.                             |
33818|33818|2016-11-27 23:26:22|ninbubbas|Where did everyone go?|How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?|
33819|33818|2016-11-28 09:22:51|riehlj2002|Re: Where did everyone go?|Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
33820|33818|2016-11-28 10:08:33|Aaron|Re: Where did everyone go?|Where are you planning  to build at?Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:22 AM, riehlj2002@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                               |
33821|33818|2016-11-28 11:55:33|riehlj2002|Re: Where did everyone go?|Southwest Florida, Port Charlotte to be specific. If anyone else is building in Florida I'd like to offer occasional help so I can get some building experience.  John  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     Where are you planning  to build at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
33822|33818|2016-11-28 12:32:55|Matt Malone|Re: Where did everyone go?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-482388516 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       My guess would be, everyone on this list, who can get away at the appointed time, would enjoy showing up for a couple days in the early stages of a build.  When does one get to see an origami start?  Observing that, or even lending the occasional hand, would  be more fun than most vacations I have taken in the last while.  For the builder, if the visitors work hard not to be a distraction to the process, just being there would contribute to the builder's sense of starting a great project.       In think the most origami magic happens somewhere between cutting the darts in the flat sheets and putting the deck on.   If this process were to occur on consecutive weekends, one might easily have a number of visitor/helpers over the course of changing  flat sheets into something that looks like a hull.   I know Brent has been  on-site with the start of some builds, so it would also be an opportunity to see Brent in action.  Brent has long said this part is very fast.  It would be great to see it happen over  the course of a few days.  Having some extra hands available, even if they are not strictly needed, would make the project go faster.   Even if visitor/observers were ordered to stay back with the lawn chairs and run the BBQ while observing, it could be quite a time.      Matt           <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of riehlj2002@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 28, 2016 11:54 AM <b>To:</b> Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?         Southwest Florida, Port Charlotte to be specific. If anyone else is building in Florida I'd like to offer occasional help so I can get some building experience.  John  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     Where are you planning  to build at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there  right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]          |
33823|33818|2016-11-28 12:53:59|Aaron|Re: Where did everyone go?|There is a fell that built a 36 over by TampaSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:54 AM, riehlj2002@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       Southwest Florida, Port Charlotte to be specific. If anyone else is building in Florida I'd like to offer occasional help so I can get some building experience.  John  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     Where are you planning  to build at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                               |
33824|33818|2016-11-28 13:07:16|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] Re: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?|Oh yes, in deed, first row lawnchair really sounds nice, particularly with interesting steps of other people's complicated work in plain display ... I suppose we could have served a couple G&Ts while watching and commenting intently when needed least?Just kidding.Anybody who saw some of Doug's (sv.seeker.com) vids since he began outsourcing work to willing tourists from all around the world knows what a beautiful idea this is.And some dude really running BBQ and fridge can't be overestimated anyway.Cheers G_B  Am 28.11.2016 um 18:32 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                              My guess would be, everyone on this list, who can get away at the appointed time, would enjoy showing up for a couple days in the early stages of a build.  When does one get to see an origami start?  Observing that, or even lending the occasional hand, would  be more fun than most vacations I have taken in the last while.  For the builder, if the visitors work hard not to be a distraction to the process, just being there would contribute to the builder's sense of starting a great project.     In think the most origami magic happens somewhere between cutting the darts in the flat sheets and putting the deck on.   If this process were to occur on consecutive weekends, one might easily have a number of visitor/helpers over the course of changing  flat sheets into something that looks like a hull.   I know Brent has been  on-site with the start of some builds, so it would also be an opportunity to see Brent in action.  Brent has long said this part is very fast.  It would be great to see it happen over  the course of a few days.  Having some extra hands available, even if they are not strictly needed, would make the project go faster.   Even if visitor/observers were ordered to stay back with the lawn chairs and run the BBQ while observing, it could be quite a time.    Matt           <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of riehlj2002@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 28, 2016 11:54 AM <b>To:</b> Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?        Southwest Florida, Port Charlotte to be specific. If anyone else is building in Florida I'd like to offer occasional help so I can get some building experience.  John  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     Where are you planning  to build at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there  right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                    |
33825|33818|2016-11-28 14:02:56|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|For me the trickiest part is budgeting for a full build. from what i've seen from others I think i need to have around $50K to do it right start to finish. If everything goes right that is. I can't imagine how much money Seeker has into her at this point. He has been working on her so long and still has so far to go. I don't want to get part way there and not be able to finish and cruise. The lawnchairs and BBQ sounds good though.|
33826|33818|2016-11-28 17:27:03|brentswain38|Re: [Bulk] Re: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?|A bit of extra muscle power helps a lot. I have put tourists to work, to good effect. Even had the harnesses waiting for when they showed up. The serious ones stuck around, willing to help,  the rest, you don't want to stick around.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :Oh yes, in deed, first row lawnchair really sounds nice, particularly with interesting steps of other people's complicated work in plain display ... I suppose we could have served a couple G&Ts while watching and commenting intently when needed least?Just kidding.Anybody who saw some of Doug's (sv.seeker.com) vids since he began outsourcing work to willing tourists from all around the world knows what a beautiful idea this is.And some dude really running BBQ and fridge can't be overestimated anyway.Cheers G_B  Am 28.11.2016 um 18:32 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:   My guess would be, everyone on this list, who can get away at the appointed time, would enjoy showing up for a couple days in the early stages of a build.  When does one get to see an origami start?  Observing that, or even lending the occasional hand, would be more fun than most vacations I have taken in the last while.  For the builder, if the visitors work hard not to be a distraction to the process, just being there would contribute to the builder's sense of starting a great project.   In think the most origami magic happens somewhere between cutting the darts in the flat sheets and putting the deck on.   If this process were to occur on consecutive weekends, one might easily have a number of visitor/helpers over the course of changing flat sheets into something that looks like a hull.   I know Brent has been  on-site with the start of some builds, so it would also be an opportunity to see Brent in action.  Brent has long said this part is very fast.  It would be great to see it happen over the course of a few days.  Having some extra hands available, even if they are not strictly needed, would make the project go faster.   Even if visitor/observers were ordered to stay back with the lawn chairs and run the BBQ while observing, it could be quite a time.   Matt   <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of riehlj2002@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 28, 2016 11:54 AM <b>To:</b> Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?  Southwest Florida, Port Charlotte to be specific. If anyone else is building in Florida I'd like to offer occasional help so I can get some building experience.  John  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     Where are you planning  to build at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
33827|33818|2016-11-28 17:31:11|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|A doctor named Bob Meade was building a 36  in Florida a while back. He does medical research .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <riehlj2002@...> wrote :Southwest Florida, Port Charlotte to be specific. If anyone else is building in Florida I'd like to offer occasional help so I can get some building experience.  John  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     Where are you planning  to build at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     Planning to start in 2-3 years.  Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Where did everyone go?     How many around here are building or planning to build right now? Theres not been many updates lately so Im just wondering. I keep up with Seeker on youtube and there was a kid around that started one about a year ago i think but don't see much else out there right now.  How about people that are out sailing there boats right now?  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
33828|33818|2016-11-28 17:34:49|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|If you are planning to start in a couple of years, you should be able to  get much of your scrounging done by then, saving much of your final costs, and drastically reducing the cost of your boat. The sooner you start the less it will cost. You can make up a long list of detail bits and pieces well in advance, ( cleats , mooring bits, hatches, anchors, interior tabs, mast fittings, tabernackle, handrails,  anchor winch, chock liners, bow roller  rudder and rudder fittings, windvane, pad eyes, woodstove, stove pipe, etc etc.) reducing the building  time drastically , after you get the hull together.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ninbubbas@...> wrote :For me the trickiest part is budgeting for a full build. from what i've seen from others I think i need to have around $50K to do it right start to finish. If everything goes right that is. I can't imagine how much money Seeker has into her at this point. He has been working on her so long and still has so far to go. I don't want to get part way there and not be able to finish and cruise. The lawnchairs and BBQ sounds good though.|
33829|33818|2016-11-28 17:36:49|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|You can  also scrounge a lot of your interior materials  and hardware , well in advance.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :If you are planning to start in a couple of years, you should be able to  get much of your scrounging done by then, saving much of your final costs, and drastically reducing the cost of your boat. The sooner you start the less it will cost. You can make up a long list of detail bits and pieces well in advance, ( cleats , mooring bits, hatches, anchors, interior tabs, mast fittings, tabernackle, handrails,  anchor winch, chock liners, bow roller  rudder and rudder fittings, windvane, pad eyes, woodstove, stove pipe, etc etc.) reducing the building  time drastically , after you get the hull together.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ninbubbas@...> wrote :For me the trickiest part is budgeting for a full build. from what i've seen from others I think i need to have around $50K to do it right start to finish. If everything goes right that is. I can't imagine how much money Seeker has into her at this point. He has been working on her so long and still has so far to go. I don't want to get part way there and not be able to finish and cruise. The lawnchairs and BBQ sounds good though.|
33830|33818|2016-11-28 23:56:40|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|Thank you for the responses Mr. Swain. I would like my future boat to be nice and attractive as much as possible. i don't want to put a lot of work into something that looks junky or that i'm embarased by. So Im not going to be scrounging stuff. I'd rather do it right and be proud like a couple of the boats i've seen here. I think the time i would put into scrounging stuff could be better spent doing something more useful like working my landscaping job and saving up. The cheapest way is not the best in my opinion.|
33831|33818|2016-11-29 04:50:33|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Am 29.11.2016 um 05:56 schrieb ninbubbas@... [origamiboats]: So Im not going to be scrounging stuff. I'd rather do it right Doing it right ...?When You're going cruising, and I mean cruising, You'll find Yourself some two to fife times a day in the situation of minor faliures of stuff ... gear, technical stuff, failing by fatigue, of aggressive environmental influence, or just because it was shiny crap from the pretentious marble-marina chandlery in the first place.So You'll repair and maintain anyway on a nearly daily basis, the more with any next shiny part You'll ever buy.No big deal but part of the fun - if You did bring knowledge, tooling and spares. But lifethreatening in no time if You didn't.Think about outboards, generators, main engine, wheel steering, standing and running rigging, terminals, systems, electrics, electronics, all those little helpers You don't even mention as long as they do what they should but ruin Your day in seconds if they seriously quit miduse.Now just one example:A Mercedes OM 602 engine in marinised configuration with wet exhaust (of which You'll probably get rid later anyway) will set You back, new from the dealership on the palet, about a slim five digit figure before You'll even have thought about what gearbox You'll combine with it.Dumpsterdiving around commercial fishery wharfes could get You a commercial grade Bukh gearbox to overhaul Yourself for ... lets say a low three digit figure, plus another midrange three digits for the parts and bearings You'll need - for a comercial grade thingy You would not even be offered by Your dealer if not explicitly asking for it - because nearly undestroyable when used as a cruiser gearbox; dealers absofu**inglutely don't like undestroyable. (No box found yet)Now the engine ... I bought a first hand Mercedes 250 T from 1994, only 330.000 km, with a perfectly running OM 602 just weeks ago for 100.- € (around 130 $ US); car was in running condition, had even some days of (strict German) roadworthyness left, and had a well working 5 stage automatic gearbox we already sold for 950.- € just because it wasn't IN the car anymore after we canibalised the engine for a riverboat project to go down the Danube.Engine will be opened, revised and thoroughly overhauled before being put in the hull, of course.After selling the automatic gearbox, the rear end and probably a future sale of some panels, glazing and the leather interior the "customer" (who actually is more of a friend) might not even have enough left for ANY part and gasket he'll be in need of to rebuild the engine to "better-than-new", but there might even be money left to rebuild a decent gearbox, and even build a10 to 15 kW shaftdriven stand-by generator and get a second hand shaft and a propellor as well.And best goody of such an approach is: You know Your bloody Mercer by it's first name after doing this, as You know Your gearbox, each and any winch, windlass, pump, valve and other parts You got for low rates out of the dumpsters of the dealership and rebuilt Yourself.I made a lot of bucks while skippering because fellow cruisers didn't even know how to open their shiny windlasses or winches or roller furlers when those failed, not to mention repair/rebuild 'em. And fail they will.So why not get the "failed" stuff other people throw away anyway and rebuild this to Your personal standards (which will quickly rise well over "shiny chandlery crap" standards with some real cruising) ?Just my 0.02 bucks, of course.Cheers G_B|
33832|33818|2016-11-29 08:15:13|John Riehl|Re: Where did everyone go?|<!-- #ygrps-yiv-906618566    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566   #ygrps-yiv-906618566 p.ygrps-yiv-906618566MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-906618566 li.ygrps-yiv-906618566MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-906618566 div.ygrps-yiv-906618566MsoNormal 	{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 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li.ygrps-yiv-906618566underline1, #ygrps-yiv-906618566 div.ygrps-yiv-906618566underline1 	{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 span.ygrps-yiv-906618566yshortcuts1 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 span.ygrps-yiv-906618566yshortcuts2 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 span.ygrps-yiv-906618566EmailStyle36 	{font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 .ygrps-yiv-906618566MsoChpDefault 	{font-size:10.0pt;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 div.ygrps-yiv-906618566WordSection1 	{} #ygrps-yiv-906618566    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Symbol;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:"Courier New";}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-906618566 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 ol 	{margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-906618566 ul 	{margin-bottom:0in;} -->“And best goody of such an approach is: You know Your bloody Mercer by it's first name after doing this, as You know Your gearbox, each and any winch, windlass, pump, valve and other parts You got for low rates out of the dumpsters of the dealership and rebuilt Yourself.”  This to me is the most important benefit of building yourself…really knowing your boat and being able to quickly troubleshoot and fix a problem.  <b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;'>From:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 29, 2016 4:51 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?      Am 29.11.2016 um 05:56 schrieb ninbubbas@... [origamiboats]: So Im not going to be scrounging stuff. I'd rather do it right   Doing it right ...?  When You're going cruising, and I mean cruising, You'll find Yourself some two to fife times a day in the situation of minor faliures of stuff ... gear, technical stuff, failing by fatigue, of aggressive environmental influence, or just because it was shiny crap from the pretentious marble-marina chandlery in the first place.  So You'll repair and maintain anyway on a nearly daily basis, the more with any next shiny part You'll ever buy.  No big deal but part of the fun - if You did bring knowledge, tooling and spares. But lifethreatening in no time if You didn't.  Think about outboards, generators, main engine, wheel steering, standing and running rigging, terminals, systems, electrics, electronics, all those little helpers You don't even mention as long as they do what they should but ruin Your day in seconds if they seriously quit miduse.  Now just one example:  A Mercedes OM 602 engine in marinised configuration with wet exhaust (of which You'll probably get rid later anyway) will set You back, new from the dealership on the palet, about a slim five digit figure before You'll even have thought about what gearbox You'll combine with it.  Dumpsterdiving around commercial fishery wharfes could get You a commercial grade Bukh gearbox to overhaul Yourself for ... lets say a low three digit figure, plus another midrange three digits for the parts and bearings You'll need - for a comercial grade thingy You would not even be offered by Your dealer if not explicitly asking for it - because nearly undestroyable when used as a cruiser gearbox; dealers absofu**inglutely don't like undestroyable. (No box found yet)  Now the engine ... I bought a first hand Mercedes 250 T from 1994, only 330.000 km, with a perfectly running OM 602 just weeks ago for 100.- € (around 130 $ US); car was in running condition, had even some days of (strict German) roadworthyness left, and had a well working 5 stage automatic gearbox we already sold for 950.- € just because it wasn't IN the car anymore after we canibalised the engine for a riverboat project to go down the Danube.  Engine will be opened, revised and thoroughly overhauled before being put in the hull, of course.  After selling the automatic gearbox, the rear end and probably a future sale of some panels, glazing and the leather interior the "customer" (who actually is more of a friend) might not even have enough left for ANY part and gasket he'll be in need of to rebuild the engine to "better-than-new", but there might even be money left to rebuild a decent gearbox, and even build a10 to 15 kW shaftdriven stand-by generator and get a second hand shaft and a propellor as well.  And best goody of such an approach is: You know Your bloody Mercer by it's first name after doing this, as You know Your gearbox, each and any winch, windlass, pump, valve and other parts You got for low rates out of the dumpsters of the dealership and rebuilt Yourself.  I made a lot of bucks while skippering because fellow cruisers didn't even know how to open their shiny windlasses or winches or roller furlers when those failed, not to mention repair/rebuild 'em. And fail they will.  So why not get the "failed" stuff other people throw away anyway and rebuild this to Your personal standards (which will quickly rise well over "shiny chandlery crap" standards with some real cruising) ?  Just my 0.02 bucks, of course.  Cheers G_B    |
33833|33818|2016-11-29 11:10:56|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|Thanks again for the comments. I guess i hadn't thought about everything that way. so maybe this origami route is not for me. I'm pretty handy but having to learn how to completely rebuild junked engines and transmissions after learning about welding and fabricating and electrical and plumbing all before I can go cruising is a steep curve. That is years of work  study and expense. i'm not really interested in becoming that much of an expert on every single thing on my boat and why i was willing to save more money before i get started. I just want to go cruising for a few years while i'm young enough to enjoy it. I guess I need to rethink this. There are lots of boats out there for less than $50K that will get me out there and let me learn as I go.Anyway thanks. That's a lot of good information to think about.|
33834|33818|2016-11-29 12:15:40|Matt Malone|Re: Where did everyone go?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1481342052 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       I do not think anyone suggested you had to acquire junk and fix it.   There are plenty of perfectly good working things that can simply be repurposed.   I worked in Florida following the hurricanes in the mid-2000s and I cannot imagine how there were not  plenty of perfectly functional boat parts available at discount after so many shiny thin fibreglass shell boats were wrecked.      When if comes to good, working, used, there are plenty of options including ones no longer available in stores.  For instance, all the hardware on my 60 year old boat is solid Monel, and will be around and working in another 60 years.   Polish it up and  it will look just as sparkling as any other naval bronze.       I do not care if you are sailing on the smallest lake, the more you know about your boat, the safer and the better off you are, and the further you can go on less money.   Exactly what is the difference between mounting a quality used winch on your boat and mounting a new one?    Money.   The ocean does not care how old the metal is, just how durable and strong it is.   Brent has found a way, at the cusp, of taking cruising a very long way with a steel boat, on a schedule and budget that many have chosen.       I have never met a blue-water cruiser yet who has not had something good to say about a steel boat, even if it was not their choice when they committed to their boat.  I have had many blue water cruisers recommend to me, as their first recommendation, get  a steel boat, without exception or reservation.  They know something.       You can always choose to cruise further from that cusp, and closer to the yachty crowd with more money, and rely more on mechanics and replacements instead of yourself, a small tool box, and repairs.  If you decide like I did to buy an old literally-solid  fibreglass boat and pick and choose from what you learn here, that is your freedom, and you will be respected for making thoughtful choices for yourself, your own budget and your own aspirations.         This video shows another way to cruise, coincidently, from Florida, on a budget, and apparently with little mechanical expertise:    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lwbHYOFD-4     It illustrates the strengths and I hope you will recognize the weaknesses of this approach without others here having to explain them, but it has the advantage that you could be out there sooner.  Perhaps you will have the time of your life in the Bahamas  and your second boat will be a steel one and you will take it around Cape Horn to through the Northwest Passage, or around the world like others have done with their Brent Swain boats.       Matt             <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:10 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?         Thanks again for the comments. I guess i hadn't thought about everything that way. so maybe this origami route is not for me. I'm pretty handy but having to learn how to completely rebuild junked engines and transmissions after learning about welding and  fabricating and electrical and plumbing all before I can go cruising is a steep curve. That is years of work  study and expense. i'm not really interested in becoming that much of an expert on every single thing on my boat and why i was willing to save more  money before i get started. I just want to go cruising for a few years while i'm young enough to enjoy it. I guess I need to rethink this. There are lots of boats out there for less than $50K that will get me out there and let me learn as I go.  Anyway thanks. That's a lot of good information to think about.        |
33835|33818|2016-11-29 12:38:26|Hannu Venermo|Re: Where did everyone go?|I think You misunderstood the other poster .. who may have come off as a  bit negative. 99% of all cruisers do so with a plastic boat. Quite well, mostly. Maybe 90% don´t have major issues with life threatening consequeances.  The other poster referred to real cruising - as being very much concerned with breakdowns of all sorts. This is Very True. And the more "plastic" and "pretty" the boat, the more issues there will be.  None of the current-production boats (reasonable cost) I know of are  really set up for cruising. None. Cruising means being independent, travelling the world, not being a  tourist in an expensive first world marina all the time, but a traveller.  The message, imho, was: On any standard sailboat, most all of the gear is undersized for actual  long-term day-in day-out use. Most of it will not last, well, long term. Especially, none will last if it was bought used, old, and usually not  too well maintained before resale. Like a second hand production plastic boat.  As a cruiser, you will continuously face the need to fix stuff, unless  you bought new, 2-stages bigger, stuff in the first place. Being able to fix mechanical stuff as much as possible is very useful.  You don´t need to rebuild engines. Diesel engines etc. are commonly rebuilt for pennies, worldwide. And it is a lot cheaper in africa (lived there 8 years, spoke the  lingo), mexico (lived there, speak fluent spanish), spain (live in  spain), china (done busines with them 25 years+) etc.  What cruising boats need, and 1-2 week "holiday trip" boats don´t need.  Imho. Ime. Very Rugged heads aka toilets. Very rugged hatches thieves and storms. Major storage. Bigger fridges. Bigger freezers. Garbage storage. Major batteries. Very efficient power system, very power-efficient systems (lights,  fridge, freezer, radio, laptop + tablet). Large PV arrays. Reliable rugged stuff in everything. Large wire runs with bigger electric wire. Bigger (+2) anchors. Bigger anchor chain +2. Better insulation (preferably lots better). Bigger winches. Bigger storage for natural gas, dive stuff, tools (lots of). Longer extension cords. Much thicker. Industrial rated. Much bigger bilge pumps by 3 sizes. One (2) well pump(s), 220V, to run  off genset. Hull repair material, fast-and-furios scenario. Cartridge powered nailer  and plywood, etc. A big inverter, or a standby diesel genset (can run household power  tools). Genset is a consumable, but thats fine. Available globally. Cheap. Lots of tools. Esp. good are large hot water tanks, large potable water tanks, reliable  watermaker (self built is better, as you then know membranes are not  overpriced and have a spare).  All above are needed for a cruising lifestyle with common, normal, hotel  loads aka fresh water toilets, pressurised hot/cold water. You can do without, but then it´s camping and gets old fast.  Also, companions and ladies don´t like long-term camping. Also, all above don´t need to cost a lot of money (industrial places,  not marine chandlery stuff). News, email, skype, manuals in pdf, etc. all arrive once you have  internet (cheapish, today) via cellphone. Globally available.  Minimal electronics. A chartplotter, handheld gps. Thats it.  Ninbubbas... Brent has proved with dozens of people learning the mechanical basics  aka origami boatbuilding is easily done in some months. Scrounging is not necessarily the way - and when You buy new You only  need 1/10 the troubleshooting time.  My main point is that for actual travelling aka cruising liveaboard,  thing rugged agriculture or industrial, rather than marine store. This is also a major filosofy in origami boatbuilding. New is better than old and used - but much more expensive.  Industrial new is VERY MUCH CHEAPER than marine-store. Upto 34x or 3400%  by capacity. Industrial wellpump aka evacuation pump, 300€, 220V, can east 10 mm  rocks for hours, every day. Some can run 10 years, 24x7.  Example: A real emergency "bilge pump" is something like this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-5-HP-Cast-Iron-Sewage-Sump-Pump-Energy-Saving-Cleaning-Water-Well-Heavy-Duty-/302072718617?hash=item4654efe519:g:OMEAAOSwAuZX2Jl~ You want 2" discharge to pass all the crap that gets in the bilge, if  you get holed or knocked down/over. You want something that is continuous duty, and ability to run 3-5 days  24x7.  Likewise, industrial paints = hard duty = marine paint for offshore  industrial stuff at 1/4 the cost of marine depot. A plastic "rule" is a toy, and wont even last 48 hours, and wont last  /clogs) with crap in water, and wont pump well due to the head of only  8-10 feet, vs wellpump running 300 feet or more or head. And your std batteries wont feed any decent pump for more than an hour  or two. And your std cables will eat 20% of your electic power in voltage drop  due to undersized small, weak, 12 V DC systems. Use 12 V, VFD=inverter at battery, 220 V stuff.  Etc...    On 29/11/2016 17:10, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Thanks again for the comments. I guess i hadn't thought about  > everything that way. so maybe this origami route is not for me. I'm  > pretty handy but having to learn how to completely rebuild junked  > engines and transmissions after learning about welding and fabricating  > and electrical and plumbing all before I can go cruising is a steep  > curve. That is years of work  study and expense. i'm not really  > interested in becoming that much of an expert on every single thing on  > my boat and why i was willing to save more money before i get started.  > I just want to go cruising for a few years while i'm young enough to  > enjoy it. I guess I need to rethink this. There are lots of boats out  > there for less than $50K that will get me out there and let me learn  > as I go. > > Anyway thanks. That's a lot of good information to think about.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33836|33818|2016-11-29 13:58:51|prairiemaidca|Re: Where did everyone go?|Seems that some people think that it's a 100% either way.  Lots of us built our boats using a combination of new and shiny store bought and building as much as possible the items that we were comfortable doing.  The best part of building a boat of your own is doing as much as you want, or can afford in what ever combination makes you happy.  Don't worry about what others think.  Ultimately you are the one that is going to be out on the water wether it's a day sail or weekend getaway or taking up liveaboard cruising around the planet.  Make it as safe as you can and get as much enjoyment out of her as possible.  Martin   (Prairie Maid)|
33837|33818|2016-11-29 14:06:10|Matt Malone|Re: Where did everyone go?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-2106023159 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       FYI, 120gpm will easily handle the water pouring in a 2" / 5cm hole, 1.5 meters below the surface .... that is,   - before you get around to stuffing a potato in the hole to slow down the water as a stop-gap measure,   - until you can find something you can rely on for most of the day   - so you can tend to other necessities including fashioning a permanent solution.         I am not certain why Hannu is assuming used stuff is more likely to fail.  If it is robust stuff, industrial quality stuff, and it worked well in service, and became redundant, and one give it a good look over before buying it, and tended to it properly  before installing it, and did all prudent maintenance, then you should be more certain it will not suffer early failure owing to a defect.  Sure it has seen more service, and it may like its lubrication a little more frequently but its earlier service  has weeded out the ones with flaws.   Just because the new thing has a warranty, does that mean you were not intending to inspect it just as often as is prudent for an old one?  That does not sound like seamanship to me, that sounds like faith.  Certainly  if you buy used stuff that has been abused, or stressed, bent, run dry, or was undependable for the previous owner, and no basic maintenance was done on it before it was put in your boat, then, yes, expect more trouble.       Also, when one buys good used, one can afford to buy something 2 sizes larger for that added robustness.     From his past posts, I know Brent was referring things like getting perfectly good stainless steel pipe from scrap yards and such "scrounging" to introduce quality materials in the boat.       Matt         <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 29, 2016 12:09 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?         I think You misunderstood the other poster .. who may have come off as a  bit negative. 99% of all cruisers do so with a plastic boat. Quite well, mostly. Maybe 90% don´t have major issues with life threatening consequeances.  The other poster referred to real cruising - as being very much concerned with breakdowns of all sorts. This is Very True. And the more "plastic" and "pretty" the boat, the more issues there will be.  None of the current-production boats (reasonable cost) I know of are  really set up for cruising. None. Cruising means being independent, travelling the world, not being a  tourist in an expensive first world marina all the time, but a traveller.  The message, imho, was: On any standard sailboat, most all of the gear is undersized for actual  long-term day-in day-out use. Most of it will not last, well, long term. Especially, none will last if it was bought used, old, and usually not  too well maintained before resale. Like a second hand production plastic boat.  As a cruiser, you will continuously face the need to fix stuff, unless  you bought new, 2-stages bigger, stuff in the first place. Being able to fix mechanical stuff as much as possible is very useful.  You don´t need to rebuild engines. Diesel engines etc. are commonly rebuilt for pennies, worldwide. And it is a lot cheaper in africa (lived there 8 years, spoke the  lingo), mexico (lived there, speak fluent spanish), spain (live in  spain), china (done busines with them 25 years+) etc.  What cruising boats need, and 1-2 week "holiday trip" boats don´t need.  Imho. Ime. Very Rugged heads aka toilets. Very rugged hatches thieves and storms. Major storage. Bigger fridges. Bigger freezers. Garbage storage. Major batteries. Very efficient power system, very power-efficient systems (lights,  fridge, freezer, radio, laptop + tablet). Large PV arrays. Reliable rugged stuff in everything. Large wire runs with bigger electric wire. Bigger (+2) anchors. Bigger anchor chain +2. Better insulation (preferably lots better). Bigger winches. Bigger storage for natural gas, dive stuff, tools (lots of). Longer extension cords. Much thicker. Industrial rated. Much bigger bilge pumps by 3 sizes. One (2) well pump(s), 220V, to run  off genset. Hull repair material, fast-and-furios scenario. Cartridge powered nailer  and plywood, etc. A big inverter, or a standby diesel genset (can run household power  tools). Genset is a consumable, but thats fine. Available globally. Cheap. Lots of tools. Esp. good are large hot water tanks, large potable water tanks, reliable  watermaker (self built is better, as you then know membranes are not  overpriced and have a spare).  All above are needed for a cruising lifestyle with common, normal, hotel  loads aka fresh water toilets, pressurised hot/cold water. You can do without, but then it´s camping and gets old fast.  Also, companions and ladies don´t like long-term camping. Also, all above don´t need to cost a lot of money (industrial places,  not marine chandlery stuff). News, email, skype, manuals in pdf, etc. all arrive once you have  internet (cheapish, today) via cellphone. Globally available.  Minimal electronics. A chartplotter, handheld gps. Thats it.  Ninbubbas... Brent has proved with dozens of people learning the mechanical basics  aka origami boatbuilding is easily done in some months. Scrounging is not necessarily the way - and when You buy new You only  need 1/10 the troubleshooting time.  My main point is that for actual travelling aka cruising liveaboard,  thing rugged agriculture or industrial, rather than marine store. This is also a major filosofy in origami boatbuilding. New is better than old and used - but much more expensive.  Industrial new is VERY MUCH CHEAPER than marine-store. Upto 34x or 3400%  by capacity. Industrial wellpump aka evacuation pump, 300€, 220V, can east 10 mm  rocks for hours, every day. Some can run 10 years, 24x7.  Example: A real emergency "bilge pump" is something like this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-5-HP-Cast-Iron-Sewage-Sump-Pump-Energy-Saving-Cleaning-Water-Well-Heavy-Duty-/302072718617?hash=item4654efe519:g:OMEAAOSwAuZX2Jl~ You want 2" discharge to pass all the crap that gets in the bilge, if  you get holed or knocked down/over. You want something that is continuous duty, and ability to run 3-5 days  24x7.  Likewise, industrial paints = hard duty = marine paint for offshore  industrial stuff at 1/4 the cost of marine depot. A plastic "rule" is a toy, and wont even last 48 hours, and wont last  /clogs) with crap in water, and wont pump well due to the head of only  8-10 feet, vs wellpump running 300 feet or more or head. And your std batteries wont feed any decent pump for more than an hour  or two. And your std cables will eat 20% of your electic power in voltage drop  due to undersized small, weak, 12 V DC systems. Use 12 V, VFD=inverter at battery, 220 V stuff.  Etc...   On 29/11/2016 17:10, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Thanks again for the comments. I guess i hadn't thought about  > everything that way. so maybe this origami route is not for me. I'm  > pretty handy but having to learn how to completely rebuild junked  > engines and transmissions after learning about welding and fabricating  > and electrical and plumbing all before I can go cruising is a steep  > curve. That is years of work study and expense. i'm not really  > interested in becoming that much of an expert on every single thing on  > my boat and why i was willing to save more money before i get started.  > I just want to go cruising for a few years while i'm young enough to  > enjoy it. I guess I need to rethink this. There are lots of boats out  > there for less than $50K that will get me out there and let me learn  > as I go. > > Anyway thanks. That's a lot of good information to think about.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)           |
33838|33818|2016-11-29 15:09:19|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|So, I didn't want to scare You off .... sorry 'bout that, really!What I wanted to say was what Hannu said better and in more detail: repairable industrial stuff and stuff You can count on isn't found easily in Yacht candleries and usually not aboard factory-stock boats.What I did mention about the Mercedes engine is something we ("customer" and I) will do only to give him the chance to see the inside of his engine before setting off - increases the general trust.I am used to those engines for decades and the particular one I'd plant in my own boat without even considering an oil-change.When it comes to used boats which can enable You to go cruising tomorrow: YES! There's a ton of reasonably priced boats out there which will bring You on the water as soon as the last price is disputed and finally payed.But those are used leisure boats, usually industrial production boats, built from as cheap materials as in literally any way possible, outfitted with hardware bought in bulk under very keen competition, full of construction- and building-shortcuts, and in addition sometimes they saw their share of neglect before the owner finally decided to try selling 'em, neglect not because the owner wanted to dupe You in the first place, but because usually it takes some time for him to realize how hard his times became in earnest. (Some of the best bargains: inherited boats You buy from the widow.)That isn't any problem at all, either.I do not remember times (before 2009, that is) when boats in all sizes and shapes and conditions were this affordable like they became the recent years.(And You don't have to be a pro in terms of navigation any more either these days, when a saltwaterproof handheld gps sells for under 200,- bucks.To know what to do with gps-readings in general still helps a fair bit, though.)Those preloved ones usually still are plastic boats full of little setbacks, but perfectly usable for some days or even weeks cruising in a row, as long as You still have a flat or house to come back to and dry Your socks - and do know enough of the sea to get back to the said flat under any circumstances.These boats would be not sufficient for an all-year-round longterm liveaboard in less-than-tropical climates, though, as far as I'm concerned.Still just my personal idea of sailing and liveaboard.Rollo Gebhard went around twice between 1967 and 1979 on a 24" Condor 7 - singlehanded.So: You should not hesitate to go out there and enjoy Yourself!Cheers G_BAm 29.11.2016 um 17:10 schrieb ninbubbas@... [origamiboats]:                          Thanks again for the comments. I guess i hadn't thought about everything that way. so maybe this origami route is not for me. I'm pretty handy but having to learn how to completely rebuild junked engines and transmissions after learning about welding and fabricating and electrical and plumbing all before I can go cruising is a steep curve. That is years of work  study and expense. i'm not really interested in becoming that much of an expert on every single thing on my boat and why i was willing to save more money before i get started. I just want to go cruising for a few years while i'm young enough to enjoy it. I guess I need to rethink this. There are lots of boats out there for less than $50K that will get me out there and let me learn as I go.Anyway thanks. That's a lot of good information to think about.                          |
33839|33818|2016-11-29 17:25:34|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|Thank you Martin. I totaly agree with you that it should be a balance. I don't understand the bitterness toward "yachties" or the "my way or the highway" approach. Its just not part of who i am or how i think. But to each his own i guess. I just want to go sailing. There is plenty to learn just in that.Cheers all.|
33840|33818|2016-11-29 19:15:51|opuspaul|Re: Where did everyone go?|Quality is one issue, the other is value.    New stuff is too expensive for what you get.    My first choice is always to buy used and fix it up.  With ebay, plenty of used boats and the internet, this is a breeze compared to 20 years ago.I was told when I was building the boat that there will be times when you have money and no time and times when you have time but no money.  You will never have both time and money.  This is true of most things in life, not just building.Too many people start a boat and never finish.   This is true of even an origami design.  Life is too short.   The worst thing would be to spend many years building without ever finishing or sailing the boat.   Before you build a boat, look at the used market.  If this stops you from building, then this is good since you aren't really motivated enough to start in the first place.   I highly recommend crewing offshore on other people's boats and gaining some experience before starting to build.  It will help you make decisions later.I really admire Doug Jackson of SVSeeker.   He has been doing it for years but is still motivated and seems to still love the process of building.  His youtube channel is very educational for anyone thinking of building a boat or aquiring new skills.  I have become addicted to his videos.   Amazing and inspirational.https://www.youtube.com/user/submarineboat Does anyone know what happened to Greg Elliott and his Genoa 55?  I know he butted heads with many people on the group but I was always interested in his project.  His website hasn't been updated for years.http://www.origamimagic.com/  |
33841|33818|2016-11-30 00:51:36|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Am 30.11.2016 um 01:15 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:Quality is one issue, the other is value.    New stuff is too expensive for what you get.What does annoy me most in buying new is this bloody VAT of up to 24 % (which would be a friggin QUARTER of the prize) depending on where You buy; especially so with our German minister of finance who is an unrivalled sort of imbecile inbreed in terms of economic knowledge and an austerity terrorist, ruining the great idea of an united and peaceful Europe singlehandedly, and nearly unchallenged for years now. I cut his share wherever and whenever I possibly can in any way, which is best done in buying secondhand/privately and build or rebuild for Your own - or at least barter time/materials instead of officially exchanging money businesslike.The worst thing would be to spend many years building without ever finishing or sailing the boatI absolutely second this; some of those longterm projects could become a bargain to begin with, though. (as long as You hop on in an early enough phase to not be forced tearing apart some years of work to get on Your own path with it.)  I highly recommend crewing offshore on other people's boats and gaining some experience before starting to build.  It will help you make decisions laterOnly thing to be really, really careful with this approach is the nautical capability of the people You confide to (literally with Your life).I had some pretty hairy experiences this way I would neither recommend to reproduce nor want to relive, honestly.But it's a great way to learn how utterly unimportant (to say the least) most of the stuff sold to harbour Yachties really is out there sailing.Does anyone know what happened to Greg Elliott and his Genoa 55?  I know he butted heads with many people on the group but I was always interested in his project.  His website hasn't been updated for years.Well, this "origami magic" site kind of froze like Gerd's Yago site did ... I'd be specifically interested in origami-magic as well, for it's Aluminium (which I prefer over the rusty stuff...) and its a pretty decent size of hull.G_B|
33842|33818|2016-11-30 07:52:50|garyhlucas|Re: Where did everyone go?|     A couple of things to think about.  I have an Etap 26 plastic boat,  unusual because of 100% foam flotation.  However after buying it I  discovered a problem with the lift keel that was entirely a design flaw.   So I had to fix it.  Life of course intervened and it has been on land for  6 years now!  I still have a ton of  work to do to get it done as  well.  I paid $6000 for a boat with a new cost of about $36,000.   Replacement today would about $85,000, and all the parts you need are for an  $85K boat not a 6K boat!  As with anything, boats, houses, college, not  finishing is the worse possible outcome because a pile of parts has very little  resale value.      <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:51 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone  go?          Am 30.11.2016 um 01:15 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:   Quality is one issue, the other is  value.    New stuff is too expensive for what you  get.  What does annoy me most in buying new  is this bloody VAT of up to 24 % (which would be a friggin QUARTER of the prize)  depending on where You buy;  especially so with our German minister  of finance who is an unrivalled sort of imbecile inbreed in terms of economic  knowledge and an austerity terrorist, ruining the great idea of an united and  peaceful Europe singlehandedly, and nearly unchallenged for years now.   I cut his share wherever and whenever I  possibly can in any way, which is best done in buying secondhand/privately and  build or rebuild for Your own - or at least barter time/materials instead of  officially exchanging money businesslike.     The worst thing would be to spend  many years building without ever finishing or sailing the boat  I absolutely second  this;  some of those  longterm projects could become a bargain to begin with, though.  (as long as You hop  on in an early enough phase to not be forced tearing apart some years of work to  get on Your own path with it.)    I highly  recommend crewing offshore on other people's boats and gaining some experience  before starting to build.  It will help you make decisions  later  Only thing to be  really, really careful with this approach is the nautical capability of the  people You confide to (literally with Your life). I had some pretty  hairy experiences this way I would neither recommend to reproduce nor want to  relive, honestly. But it's a great way  to learn how utterly unimportant (to say the least) most of the stuff sold to  harbour Yachties really is out there sailing.   Does anyone  know what happened to Greg Elliott and his Genoa 55?  I know he butted  heads with many people on the group but I was always interested in his  project.  His website hasn't been updated for years.  Well, this "origami  magic" site kind of froze like Gerd's Yago site did ... I'd be specifically  interested in origami-magic as well, for it's Aluminium (which I prefer over the  rusty stuff...) and its a pretty decent size of hull.  G_B    |
33843|33843|2016-11-30 16:37:54|Josh Trenter|2002 36' Brent Swain - full keel for sale.|Still have my boat for sale if anyone is looking. Just lowered the price. http://rubiconyachts.com/yachts-for-sale/details/5811831/|
33844|33818|2016-11-30 16:58:49|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|We are wash in gear as good as new , for a fraction the cost  of new. Type 316 stainless from the scrapyard is identical,  molecule for  molecule, as new stuff, for a fraction the cost of new.. No, used  does not mean  ugly .  As soon as you go for your first sail,  everything on your boat qualifies for the term "used". Don't expect to find all new gear  on a used boat.Check out the photos section. Boats there, built by good scroungers, are beautiful. They are boats to be proud of, both for their beauty, and the resourcefulness of their owners. I'd find it hard to be proud of a boat which I acquired  buy simply  signing a check.Check out the November issue of Sail magazine an article titled  "Dream Boat or Derelict." for the pitfalls of buying a used plastic boat. Great article ! Scary!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ninbubbas@...> wrote :Thank you for the responses Mr. Swain. I would like my future boat to be nice and attractive as much as possible. i don't want to put a lot of work into something that looks junky or that i'm embarased by. So Im not going to be scrounging stuff. I'd rather do it right and be proud like a couple of the boats i've seen here. I think the time i would put into scrounging stuff could be better spent doing something more useful like working my landscaping job and saving up. The cheapest way is not the best in my opinion.|
33845|33818|2016-11-30 18:41:42|don bourgeois|Re: Where did everyone go?|                  <!--#ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260ACTIVITY 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 .ygrps-yiv-658956260ATTACH 	{display:table;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-658956260 div.ygrps-yiv-658956260photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260PHOTOS div 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260PHOTOS div div 	{overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260PHOTOS div label 	{overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260YGRP-MLMSG 	{} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260YGRP-MLMSG table 	{font-size:inherit;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260YGRP-MLMSG pre 	{} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 code 	{} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-658956260 #ygrps-yiv-658956260ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important; 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In aviation they PREFER used engines being rebuilt over new ones as all the stresses and flaws are easily apparent and repairable. I would think well designed, constructed and used marine gear that you would inspect and rebuild would be in the same category. Brent's books have a lot of gear that you can make and it all looks straightforward and robust. This makes it easier to repair and the repairs should be doable as you are the builder. Even if you bought a boat similar to origami instead of building, the systems and components should be solid, straightforward and repairable.        My wife and I usually charter and all the shiny underbuilt stuff always breaks even on a newer boat. I also can't believe the amount of poorly designed crap they shove in these boats.  I wonder if it's all done so poorly on purpose to increase revenue from repairs.  All things should be built to make maintanence easier not more difficult.          I doubt I'll ever build but if I do it'll be origami as it's function and form are in alignment with the above thoughts. One can also get an unfinished project from someone and complete it. That would cut down on the time to complete a boat. If I was in the market Gordens boat in Victoria would be perfect!        Don't get started on the advantages of steel/plastic.         Cheers Don B from  Manitoba                <b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;'>From:</span></font></b>  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ]  <b><span style='font-weight:bold;'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, November 30, 2016 3:59 PM <b><span style='font-weight:bold;'>To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b><span style='font-weight:bold;'>Subject:</span></b> [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?                       We are wash in gear as good as new , for a fraction the cost  of new. Type 316 stainless from the scrapyard is identical,  molecule for  molecule, as new stuff, for a fraction the cost of new.     . No, used  does not mean  ugly .  As soon as you go for your first sail,  everything on your boat qualifies for the term "used". Don't expect to find all new gear  on a used boat. Check out the photos section. Boats there, built by good scroungers, are beautiful. They are boats to be proud of, both for their beauty, and the resourcefulness of their owners.  I'd find it hard to be proud of a boat which I acquired  buy simply  signing a check. Check out the November issue of Sail magazine an article titled  "Dream Boat or Derelict." for the pitfalls of buying a used plastic boat. Great article !  Scary!   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , <ninbubbas@...> wrote :     Thank you for the responses Mr. Swain. I would like my future boat to be nice and attractive as much as possible. i don't want to put a lot of work into something that looks junky or that i'm embarased by. So Im not going to be scrounging stuff. I'd rather do it right and be proud like a couple of the boats i've seen here. I think the time i would put into scrounging stuff could be better spent doing something more useful like working my landscaping job and saving up. The cheapest way is not the best in my opinion.               |
33846|33818|2016-11-30 20:01:00|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|Roger McAfee, who wrote "The Warm Dry Boat" said his father , a lifetime  heavy duty diesel mechanic, told him that  a rebuilt is far more reliable than a new engine.  A friend who does castings , said that no matter how good you are at it, there is nothing but time and use  to determine any flaws in a casting .Several friends who bought  new engines, were in the repair shop early, due to casting problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <donb1234@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1443390748 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494ACTIVITY 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1443390748 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1443390748 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 .ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494ATTACH 	{display:table;} #ygrps-yiv-1443390748 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#ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 {} #ygrps-yiv-1443390748 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 {font-family:Symbol;} #ygrps-yiv-1443390748 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 ol 	{margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1443390748 #ygrps-yiv-1443390748ygrps-yiv-691120494 ul 	{margin-bottom:0in;}This is an interesting thread. In aviation they PREFER used engines being rebuilt over new ones as all the stresses and flaws are easily apparent and repairable. I would think well designed, constructed and used marine gear that you would inspect and rebuild would be in the same category. Brent's books have a lot of gear that you can make and it all looks straightforward and robust. This makes it easier to repair and the repairs should be doable as you are the builder. Even if you bought a boat similar to origami instead of building, the systems and components should be solid, straightforward and repairable.  My wife and I usually charter and all the shiny underbuilt stuff always breaks even on a newer boat. I also can't believe the amount of poorly designed crap they shove in these boats.  I wonder if it's all done so poorly on purpose to increase revenue from repairs.  All things should be built to make maintanence easier not more difficult.    I doubt I'll ever build but if I do it'll be origami as it's function and form are in alignment with the above thoughts. One can also get an unfinished project from someone and complete it. That would cut down on the time to complete a boat. If I was in the market Gordens boat in Victoria would be perfect!  Don't get started on the advantages of steel/plastic.   Cheers Don B from Manitoba|
33847|33818|2016-11-30 23:01:04|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|Thank you again mr. Swain. I fully agree that scrap stainless makes a lot of sense in many applications when building a steel boat. but I was talking more about equipment and systems which don't make as much sense for scrounging. I dont know where you get the idea that i expect "to find all new gear on a used boat". Like Martin said above, it's a balance...not 100% one way or the other. Ive seen pictures of his boat and it is one of the finest examples of origami steel Ive seen. So i put a lot of stock in his advice. He obviously knows what he's doing. It shows in his boat. So like him i don't mind signing a check where it makes sense. Oh I also read the article. Thanks. Its true for all boats I think regardless of material.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :We are wash in gear as good as new , for a fraction the cost  of new. Type 316 stainless from the scrapyard is identical,  molecule for  molecule, as new stuff, for a fraction the cost of new.. No, used  does not mean  ugly .  As soon as you go for your first sail,  everything on your boat qualifies for the term "used". Don't expect to find all new gear  on a used boat.Check out the photos section. Boats there, built by good scroungers, are beautiful. They are boats to be proud of, both for their beauty, and the resourcefulness of their owners. I'd find it hard to be proud of a boat which I acquired  buy simply  signing a check.Check out the November issue of Sail magazine an article titled  "Dream Boat or Derelict." for the pitfalls of buying a used plastic boat. Great article ! Scary!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ninbubbas@...> wrote :Thank you for the responses Mr. Swain. I would like my future boat to be nice and attractive as much as possible. i don't want to put a lot of work into something that looks junky or that i'm embarased by. So Im not going to be scrounging stuff. I'd rather do it right and be proud like a couple of the boats i've seen here. I think the time i would put into scrounging stuff could be better spent doing something more useful like working my landscaping job and saving up. The cheapest way is not the best in my opinion.|
33848|33818|2016-12-01 05:24:37|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Am 01.12.2016 um 00:39 schrieb 'don bourgeois' donb1234@... [origamiboats]: My wife and I usually charter and all the shiny underbuilt stuff always breaks even on a newer boat. I also can't believe the amount of poorly designed crap they shove in these boats.  I wonder if it's all done so poorly on purpose to increase revenue from repairs.  All things should be built to make maintanence easier not more difficult.I once, while mastering in "production technologies for advanced materials", got by accident a call as a "tec counselor" for one of the more successful players in the European plasticboat industry - all sailboats there, with not the worst reviews imaginable (no names to be dropped).Those people there were in deed outspokenly proud of the fact that in their planning and production processes they had NOT ONE SINGLE sailor, let alone a trained boatbuilder with a profound knowledge of sailing.They all were heinous salesmen and spiffy lawyers and high end economists and freaky penny pinchin' controllers, no one ever had set a foot on anything else than a ferryboat if at all, and they were candidly pretty upset when I could name ten major and fifteen minor flaws of the actual range of products in terms of sheer sailing just "shootin' from the hip", knowing their boats for years from skippering and transfer sailing AND maintaining.My gig there did not become the beginning of a beautiful friendship, to say the least.But since then I can at least personally report from the "eye of the storm" in terms of shitty production boats: They do it like the do because they mostly don't have not even the slightest clou when it comes to sailing and seamanship - and for the notorious buyer of floating condos, those "boats" suffice well enough.I subsume that this is still the case, and might likely be the case in most other crapyards where they spit cheap snot into boatmolds to date.Cheers G_B|
33849|33818|2016-12-01 09:52:27|Matt Malone|Re: Where did everyone go?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1818698765 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Giuseppe,   Your posts are such poetry and a pleasure to read.      Matt      <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?            Am 01.12.2016 um 00:39 schrieb 'don bourgeois'  donb1234@... [origamiboats]:   My  wife and I usually charter and all the shiny underbuilt stuff always breaks even on a newer boat. I also can't believe the amount of poorly designed crap they shove in these boats.  I wonder if it's all done so poorly on purpose to increase revenue from repairs.   All things should be built to make maintanence easier not more difficult.       I once, while mastering in "production technologies for advanced materials", got by accident a call as a "tec counselor" for one of the more successful players in the European plasticboat industry - all sailboats  there, with not the worst reviews imaginable (no names to be dropped).   Those people there were in deed outspokenly proud of the fact that in their planning and production processes they had NOT ONE SINGLE sailor, let alone a trained boatbuilder with a profound knowledge of sailing.   They all were heinous salesmen and spiffy lawyers and high end economists and freaky penny pinchin' controllers, no one ever had set a foot on anything else than a ferryboat if at all, and they were candidly pretty  upset when I could name ten major and fifteen minor flaws of the actual range of products in terms of sheer sailing just "shootin' from  the hip", knowing their boats for years from skippering and transfer sailing AND maintaining.   My gig there did not become the beginning of a beautiful friendship, to say the least.   But since then I can at least personally report from the "eye of the storm" in terms of shitty production boats: They do it like the do because they mostly don't have not even the slightest clou when it comes to  sailing and seamanship - and for the notorious buyer of floating condos, those "boats" suffice well enough.   I subsume that this is still the case, and might likely be the case in most other crapyards where they spit cheap snot into boatmolds to date.   Cheers G_B              |
33850|33818|2016-12-01 11:03:36|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Thank You, my pleasure (*slightly blushing*)G_BAm 01.12.2016 um 15:52 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                              Giuseppe, Your posts are such poetry and a pleasure to read.    Matt               |
33851|33818|2016-12-01 12:01:46|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|Giuseppe, did you build an origami steel boat? Are there photos of it in the gallery. i'd love to see it.|
33852|33818|2016-12-01 13:57:45|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|I did not build an origami metal boat. I probably should write "not yet", for I plan to build one more boat, for my personal use only; but no pics to show off, I'm afraid.What I built when "in business" were superlight, superfast regatta machines, baked from prepreg carbon and aramid and geeky core materials, kind of a Formula 1 of (freshwater-)sailing in last century's eighties and nineties, the golden times as the Western European middle class still could afford even thus an eccentric hobby like battling each other in sailing races with ridiculously expensive floating chariots on beautiful Italian, Swiss, Austrian and Bavarian lakes, and in vast numbers.What I repaired usually were wooden classics, because repairing a sub tec Tupperware is a nasty job no one wants You to pay for properly, and high tec carbonracers aren't really repairable: You chip it, You dip it.What I do to date are small craft, canoes or things like lapstrake dinghies, sailable preferably, but there's no real market for things like that any more, so every two years one or two toys to build leaves me with a lot of time building crap for RVs, restoring historic buildings for the church, or doing those part of the woodwork average carpenters usually don't master, helping out friends, building hot coffee racers for my son and his friends and so on.I singlehanded a lot all my sailing years and usually had quite some boats to use for free or even paid, sometimes in exchange for maintenance or transfer sailing in shitty past-season conditions, what helped me develop a pretty precise prospect of my personal singlehander.There origami metal boatbuilding comes up.The plan is to build in laid-back-mode in inland bavaria (where I care for relatives these days as a landlubber), set it into the Danube once building and caring is done, finally get rid of everything I don't take with me aboard, and slowly, ever so slowly go down to the black sea, explore all of these wonderful, already again falling apart Ex-Comecon Eastern EU countries, erect freestanding masts once past the last bridge, and sail.(Never really recognised the Danube as a decent way to go to the seven seas until a friend of mine started his riverboat project recently).The Black Sea coast of Ukraine and Krim are places I wanted to go to for about 35 years now, and still haven't been there for a single nm.Cheers G_B... oh, and when building begins, I'll put photos somewhere in the vast www, of course. Should Mr son sometimes be part of the process, there might even pop up a little film or two. Am 01.12.2016 um 18:01 schrieb ninbubbas@... [origamiboats]:                          Giuseppe, did you build an origami steel boat? Are there photos of it in the gallery. i'd love to see it.                          |
33853|33818|2016-12-02 11:40:07|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|Sounds good. I look forward to seeing your pictures when you get going.that's what has been interesting to me in following all this for a while. There are those who are very opninionated about the ideas behind diy origami and then there are those who have actually completed a boat and sailed it. it seems those who have done it like prariemade are much more balanced in their opinion than those who haven't. So i really appreciate their advice.The other thing that worries me is what seems to be difficulty in selling a steel origami boat. I saw Josh's notice about still trying to sell his boat and having to drop the price. Now at US$35,000. Wow. I don't think you can build a complete boat for that amount of money. Why do they sell so low?|
33854|33818|2016-12-02 14:07:12|theboilerflue|Re: Where did everyone go?|There's not a lot of gear I've got on my boat that isn't homebuilt. The engine and the winches, electronics. Winches being one of the only reliable boat gear you find commonly available. The self steering, anchor winch and deck hardware are homebuilt not only because its cheaper to build it yourself - even if buying shiny new stainless at retail to do it! but because you can't get things like that. You try finding someone to sell you stuff like that and at best you'll find a welder that wants you to draw them a picture with measurments. Pretty really in ths context is a matter of how marred up the material is and the neatness of the welds - aka good fit up and some grinding and polishing.The rigging hardware is a good example of this, people will pay hundreds for a piece of stainless flat bar with a couple bends and some holes drilled in it, much more for something TIG welded together and acid polished - usually with absolute minimal weld penetration. Even to find blocks that would meet the bare minium requirements of mine that the loads have at least 5/16 inches of metal supporting the things and not some dinky little "high loading" shackle or high-tech plastic would cost a bundle.|
33855|33818|2016-12-02 14:12:19|Matt Malone|Re: Where did everyone go?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-465677887 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Why do boats sell so low?   Two reasons, fibreglass and ownership costs.   Hurricanes are just not sinking fibreglass boats as fast as they are being made.  The first factor is, the very earliest fibreglass boats are as thick in fibreglass as the previous wood boats were in wood.  Mine is 2" of glass below the waterline.  It takes  decades of no maintenance to rot a hole through inches of glass.  Unlike newer boats, with no core, the old boats degrade far more slowly from lack of maintenance.  Nearly all new boats are cored, and some are really thin in the fibreglass.   There are plenty  of 1960's boats in better shape than 1980's and 1990's boats.  Realistically, these early boats are outlasting several people's cruising careers and show no sign of expiring any time soon.  Realistically, the maintenance required to make them effectively forever-boats  need not be as attentive or frequent as that to make steel boats forever-boats.   Add to that all the new thin-walled cored fibreglass boats constantly being pumped out by manufacturers, being bought by people with too much money, and in a few years being  sold onto the second hand market, and any buyer not committed to steel has lots of choices.   If the people who have not committed to steel are being drawn away by perfectly functional boats, loaded with equipment, demand goes down for the custom built steel  boat.   A loaded old glass boat is seldom listed for more than $30k these days,  and sometimes closer to $20K.  If one looks at the old classic plastic, one can get a solid hull, sails and engine, but no modern chartplotter, radar or anything like that for  less than $10K, sometimes half that if one looks inland, farther way from the saltwater brokerages.         The second factor is the yearly ownership costs which can range from zero to thousands a year.   I have mine out of the water, on my own private property, in an area were zoning does not prohibit boats from being, so zero incremental cost to own the boat  another year.   If I had no place to keep it, I would be $3K-$6K a year for a storage or work yard around me.  In some depressed markets, one could rent enclosed industrial space cheaper than boat storage around me and then work indoors on their boat.   After  an owner is no longer sailing regularly, these costs continue to add up year after year.  Eventually owners become sellers.  They may list their boat for sale for years, gradually lowering the price.  If their boat is not the darling that lands it as a lot  of people's first choice, in a buyers market, to get ahead of the currently falling price in the boat market, the sellers will eventually finally sell it for as little as a few thousand.  I lost out on a few good ones waiting too long, when the seller finally  said yes to someone else for thousands less than my last offer.   There is always someone looking to pay for the next year's storage at $3K -$6K a year, so there is always someone willing to go very low, just to get a boat off their hands.  A buyer with patience  can get out on the water very inexpensively, compared to say buying a new family sedan.      Frankly, once a boat is large enough that one person cannot move it on the highway with a trailer and pickup truck, the owner is into cranes, transport trucks, boat yards and marinas, and they all want money.   So long as one is using the boat, these costs  are quite acceptable.  If one is actively cruising, then the storage cost can approach zero.  Though Florida is notoriously less friendly to anchored or moored boats than most other places (likely for the reason of the nuisance longevity of fibreglass boats),  there are still places in Florida that a boat can be anchored for $0.      Its a buyer's market, particularly for steel boats.  Boats that should be going for $80K are selling for $30K.  Think of it like a family sedan.  Do not expect to get any money for it in 10 or 20 years when you are done with it and get all the enjoyment  you can from it until then.   When the time comes to sell, accept the realities of that day's market.     If money could be made building and selling 30' recreational steel boats, many big companies would be building and selling 30' recreational steel boats.   The people who make their own do it for their own reasons, including enjoying the process, to spread  the cost out, and to allow money saving approaches to get to the end result.   As you observed, even orgami owners eventually sell, and the price is very attractive even when compared to building yourself, and using a lot of money saving approaches along the  way.        Matt     <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 2, 2016 11:40 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?         Sounds good. I look forward to seeing your pictures when you get going.  that's what has been interesting to me in following all this for a while. There are those who are very opninionated about the ideas behind diy origami and then there are those who have actually completed a boat and sailed it. it seems those who have done it  like prariemade are much more balanced in their opinion than those who haven't. So i really appreciate their advice.  The other thing that worries me is what seems to be difficulty in selling a steel origami boat. I saw Josh's notice about still trying to sell his boat and having to drop the price. Now at US$35,000. Wow. I don't think you can build a complete boat for that  amount of money. Why do they sell so low?        |
33856|33818|2016-12-02 16:02:55|prairiemaidca|Re: Where did everyone go?|     I think a lot of people underestimate the pleasure that can be achieved by building your own boat.  I take great pleasure in sitting at anchor or tied to a dock amongst many fancy store bought boats with the pride of knowing I'm here too and I built my own and sailed it here.  I'm constantly amazed at how many people dingy over or stop on the docks to express their thoughts on how nice and strong our boat is.  If you think of the building process as a job or a horrible chore that must be finished then maybe an already built boat is more in the needs of those people.  I totally agree that so much of our world has become a waste land of build it cheap, non repairable and then lets get on to selling them another of what ever the object is.  I'm as guilty as the next person for supporting a lot of this by looking at cost and not quality when it comes to my purchases.  One things for sure though, if I built it I only have me to blame for it's functionality, it's ability to be serviced and it's longevity.  Martin...|
33857|33818|2016-12-03 13:41:32|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Where did everyone go?| I read some of the replies to your original message, but not all.  I started building in November of 2014. That fall/winter I built or at least got a really good start on most of my deck hardware, and my skeg.   Spring of 2015 I started building the hull and everything else. It has now been about 2 years and I feel pretty confident I will launch, without a completed interior, next summer. My photo album is called BS 31' Star Route.  You will find that "scrounging" (salvaging) will become absolutely necessary in some form, whether you like it to be or not. Salvaging has at this point saved me over $10,000. The longer you salvage, the longer you can cherry pick from that pile, replacing junky things with nicer things, and in the end, a couple years later when it is time to put all that stuff on your boat, you will have, as I do now, a very VERY nice pile of gear. I am lucky, as I live in a place where there is a ton of derelict boats, but no one salvaging or building boats. I have had the pick of the lot. I am building a 31 footer, and decided to use a lot of stainless, and am currently at around $20,000-25,000. I have nothing left to purchase but my spray foam and final coats of paint.  You are right, in the beginning the entire thing will at times feel insanely overwhelming. I only learned welding about 6 months before I started. Self taught, from a book, outside, in the dirt. I knew nothing about engines. I started not even knowing if or how I would ever finish. I only had enough money to buy the two large plates that make up the hull. So I just started. If you build a boat, it will not be unattractive. Guaranteed. BUT, if you have no sailing experience and know nothing about sailboat systems, don't start off by building a boat, I would recommend buying a fiberglass boat and doing that for a couple of years before you build a boat. For real. Building a boat is fun, but I can easily see how one could innocently step into a financial/logistical nightmare if they didn't know any better.  Good luck with your decision, whatever it may be.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <losforsters@...> wrote :     I think a lot of people underestimate the pleasure that can be achieved by building your own boat.  I take great pleasure in sitting at anchor or tied to a dock amongst many fancy store bought boats with the pride of knowing I'm here too and I built my own and sailed it here.  I'm constantly amazed at how many people dingy over or stop on the docks to express their thoughts on how nice and strong our boat is.  If you think of the building process as a job or a horrible chore that must be finished then maybe an already built boat is more in the needs of those people.  I totally agree that so much of our world has become a waste land of build it cheap, non repairable and then lets get on to selling them another of what ever the object is.  I'm as guilty as the next person for supporting a lot of this by looking at cost and not quality when it comes to my purchases.  One things for sure though, if I built it I only have me to blame for it's functionality, it's ability to be serviced and it's longevity.  Martin...|
33858|33818|2016-12-03 15:02:27|ninbubbas|Re: Where did everyone go?|smallboat - thanks for that. Again another one who is actually doing it and providing very reasoned advice. Ive been following along with your build. I guess the hardest thing in this decision is really what do i want to do with my time and money. I can see your passion and talent in building. you are doing a great job. But as you say, it's a pretty overwhelming thing on this side of it. The question is do I personally want to build or sail? i always heard that origami was one of the cheaper ways to get out and enjoy that cruising dream. That might been true 30 years ago but it sure doesn't seem so now. even 3 years and $25,000 or more is a big committment to put in before i can go cruise. honestly i can't argue with the many benefits you get from building and knowing youre boat inside and out. Absolutely true. but I just think I could see a lot of world over those three years with that money which is my real goal. I may not have all these skills in the end but maybe thats okay for me.Anyway lots to decide. but it sure helps to have real advice from those who know. theres a lot of hype out there that makes it all sound so easy and cheap.|
33859|33818|2016-12-03 15:50:48|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Word.The boatmarket these days most definitely is a buyer market.Even worse (for sellers): it's a market where sellers are squeezed between greedy yard owners and reluctant authorities in terms of anchoring/mooring on the one side and a sparse amount of REAL buyers who are as willing as capable of buying AND upkeeping a boat in the 30 to 40 feet range on the other. And quite some bargains could be made by waiting for the next yard bill the owner/seller has to face.I recurrently had offers for few years now where the seller at last wanted to give it away for the notorious 1.- € just to get rid of it in a lawful manner (You can not just give away an "environmental threat" like a boat or a not anymore roadworthy car, You've got to sell it to lawfully get rid of the responsibility in quite some countries of the EU).Some of the marble marinas in Turkey have contracts nowadays in which they state that any yacht more than 4 weeks overdue in yardcosts automaticly changes into their ownership, no revision accepted; so after not paying your fares absolutely in time You could find Yourself in the situation to have to buy Your own yacht back.A lot of the yards in Italy and France had vast problems after 2009, for lots of lots of formerly rich people went bankrupt and didn't pay their fees anymore but didn't think about moving their yachts, either. Some marinas got in real trouble as well with full harbours and no way to rid themselves from no-more-payers.I personally sold some boats for the worth of the open bills broke owners owed me in 2010 and 2011, and the italian yardpeople eagerly helped with the paperwork in pretty inventive italian manner, just to get rid of the junk and get back places for paying customers asap. And we still talk about boats in working condition, complete, sailable and floating for their own.As long as a buyer is capable to invest his/her own elbow grease and is ready to take a "non-working" boat with serious issues, for example running rigging partly stolen or severely UV-damaged, standing rigging visibly in need of servicing/replacing, leaks ontop where rain got inside and caused serious mold, engine not running, Diesel in tanks hardened for bacteriae or something like that, we pretty fast are approaching the 1.- € range every time the next fees are due for the willing seller.Only problem with such kind of boats is: marinas do not allow owners to work their own boats on marina property these days, but request to employ their contractors mandatorily: generally shitty work for unbelievably royal invoices, and You can't get off their reign before at least some of the elbowgrease of THEIR provenience is purchased to at least refloat the newly bargained Tupperwareâ„¢ in some way or the other.Longterm liveaboards do have much better cards when it comes to places where You can moore or even stay lain alongside for free, or at least for reasonable public harbour fees.Not so much when You plan to leave Your boat alone for weeks or even months .... this does only work in a well insured thus costly marina with armed guards and technicians looking after Your toy and all ... You're going away for work to earn what You bin in the marina-people's pot the same moment - but still mostly cheaper than rebuy running rigging, some electronics, half of the winches, outboard engine and dinghi twice a year for a fortnight of vacation sailing.What helps tremendously in cutting lying costs while staying aboard is really being self sufficient with no need for current, water (away from caught rain or watermaker outcome), cable or wastewater/sewage, the latter only doable with dry/compost toilets to avoid ordered cleanouts of black water holding tanks.Being self sufficient allows You to pick Your anchoring roadstead without sqinting towards facilities.My personal experience: where selfsufficient sailors gather, You'll find more people of the interesting to eccentric kind, and less wallet Yotties on retail therapy, provoking a whole microeconomy to "please" and rip them off in the same moment. (one of the worst places of this kind by far in the Med is Turkey; i wonder what Florida or the Bay area would be like in this hindsght ...)There is a British saying: A yacht is a hole in seawater where You permanently throw in more money than You have.It definitely doesn't have to be like this, but You do have to know pretty well what to do and even better what to avoid to ensure not being chained towards one of those holes instantly.And steel yachts in particular are a speciality, stronger than any other type of boat, usually watertight, really "dry" boats, serious runners when built well, but a real pain in the ass and nearly as unrepairable as carbon racers when neglegted and in a certain state of disrepair, for You do have to disassemble literally EVERYTHING to be able to weld in a bilge or at sides properly to avoid burning down the lot, what does ruin prices for preloved steelyachts after all, because You can not entirely see (and inspect) the hull without disassembling, either.Well .... lots of text, but the years brought some experience, and sharing bytimes might be accepted as giving back, I hope.Cheers G_BAm 02.12.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]: Why do boats sell so low?Two reasons, fibreglass and ownership costs.Hurricanes are just not sinking fibreglass boats as fast as they are being made.  The first factor is, the very earliest fibreglass boats are as thick in fibreglass as the previous wood boats were in wood.  Mine is 2" of glass below the waterline.  It takes  decades of no maintenance to rot a hole through inches of glass.  Unlike newer boats, with no core, the old boats degrade far more slowly from lack of maintenance.  Nearly all new boats are cored, and some are really thin in the fibreglass.   There are plenty  of 1960's boats in better shape than 1980's and 1990's boats.  Realistically, these early boats are outlasting several people's cruising careers and show no sign of expiring any time soon.  Realistically, the maintenance required to make them effectively forever-boats  need not be as attentive or frequent as that to make steel boats forever-boats.   Add to that all the new thin-walled cored fibreglass boats constantly being pumped out by manufacturers, being bought by people with too much money, and in a few years being  sold onto the second hand market, and any buyer not committed to steel has lots of choices.   If the people who have not committed to steel are being drawn away by perfectly functional boats, loaded with equipment, demand goes down for the custom built steel  boat.   A loaded old glass boat is seldom listed for more than $30k these days,  and sometimes closer to $20K.  If one looks at the old classic plastic, one can get a solid hull, sails and engine, but no modern chartplotter, radar or anything like that for  less than $10K, sometimes half that if one looks inland, farther way from the saltwater brokerages.     The second factor is the yearly ownership costs which can range from zero to thousands a year.   I have mine out of the water, on my own private property, in an area were zoning does not prohibit boats from being, so zero incremental cost to own the boat  another year.   If I had no place to keep it, I would be $3K-$6K a year for a storage or work yard around me.  In some depressed markets, one could rent enclosed industrial space cheaper than boat storage around me and then work indoors on their boat.   After  an owner is no longer sailing regularly, these costs continue to add up year after year.  Eventually owners become sellers.  They may list their boat for sale for years, gradually lowering the price.  If their boat is not the darling that lands it as a lot  of people's first choice, in a buyers market, to get ahead of the currently falling price in the boat market, the sellers will eventually finally sell it for as little as a few thousand.  I lost out on a few good ones waiting too long, when the seller finally  said yes to someone else for thousands less than my last offer.   There is always someone looking to pay for the next year's storage at $3K -$6K a year, so there is always someone willing to go very low, just to get a boat off their hands.  A buyer with patience  can get out on the water very inexpensively, compared to say buying a new family sedan.  Frankly, once a boat is large enough that one person cannot move it on the highway with a trailer and pickup truck, the owner is into cranes, transport trucks, boat yards and marinas, and they all want money.   So long as one is using the boat, these costs  are quite acceptable.  If one is actively cruising, then the storage cost can approach zero.  Though Florida is notoriously less friendly to anchored or moored boats than most other places (likely for the reason of the nuisance longevity of fibreglass boats),  there are still places in Florida that a boat can be anchored for $0.  Its a buyer's market, particularly for steel boats.  Boats that should be going for $80K are selling for $30K.  Think of it like a family sedan.  Do not expect to get any money for it in 10 or 20 years when you are done with it and get all the enjoyment  you can from it until then.   When the time comes to sell, accept the realities of that day's market. If money could be made building and selling 30' recreational steel boats, many big companies would be building and selling 30' recreational steel boats.   The people who make their own do it for their own reasons, including enjoying the process, to spread  the cost out, and to allow money saving approaches to get to the end result.   As you observed, even orgami owners eventually sell, and the price is very attractive even when compared to building yourself, and using a lot of money saving approaches along the  way.       Matt |
33860|33818|2016-12-03 17:21:42|opuspaul|Re: Where did everyone go?|If you analyze it monetarily, it will never make sense when the cost to buy a used boat is less than the cost of materials to build one.  The bottom line is that there are too many boats.   It is relatively easy to find used fiberglass boats.     Some of them are incredibly cheap, and come with a lot of gear.   Marinas around the world are full of boats waiting for owners, some of who are desperate to sell up and move on.   Finding a good steel boat is more difficult but it is possible if you are patient and are willing to travel.  Unfortunately, there are far too many poorly built rust heaps.   You might get lucky and get a plain but well build metal boat that will keep you safe that you can slowly improve as you go along.Maybe the following is too rusty inside, I don't know but this is a good example.  It may surprise you what you can get....GANLEY STEEL 34                             GANLEY STEEL 34   PICTURES TAKEN 29/11/2016 EXCEPT THE 2 ON HARDSTAND ONE OWNER, BUILT TO SURVEY AND LAUNCHED 2000.              View on www.trademe.co.nz          Preview by Yahoo              One thing to keep in mind is that you need a place to live while you build and you often need to rent a space to build the boat as well.  This adds up.  The biggest mistake I made when I built my boat was to live a half hour drive away from the build site.   This cost far too much time and money.    If you took a second job, bought a used boat, lived on it and saved your money with the same dedication it took to build, you would be light years ahead financially in two or three years.  You could also fix it up and sail it while building skills and sailing knowledge.If any of this stops you from starting to build a boat, then you should  never start.  You really need passion and dedication that can't be  stopped.  If you told me all this, I would have gone ahead anyway.   I think the best argument for building a boat (as long as you finish it) is that you will learn a tremendous amount of skills and confidence in the build process.   You will know your boat inside out.   Think of it is an education that will stand you well throughout the rest of your life.   You will also feel proud and have a tremendous feeling of accomplishment that you created something from nothing.  I don't have any, but I think in some ways it is like having a child.   A real joy, a real pain and a financial burden but for some people, they have to do it..... Cheers, Paul|
33861|33818|2016-12-03 17:50:14|Hannu Venermo|Re: Where did everyone go?|Giuseppe.. Yes and no imo, ime. Clever and (or) determined owners can almost-always work on their own  yachts in the EU. Mostly, with no or low limits, after some initial hassles.  I know what You refer to. I also know how we have overcome these problems, any nr of times. Many of the yards want to prevent You or people like You or me from  doing anything, or any major stuff. But it is still possible.  Likewise, most marinas are technically, theoretically, open to everyone. The local politician will be very upset, if You call him, and talk about  an expose how "marca-acme-marina" is reducing work, labour, and competition. A normal/clever  person first talks to marca acme marina and explains  what will happen. Latinos don´t listen. When the politician/reporter is on the line, they start to listen really  well. If You tried first, You are not the guilty person. Or You use the glasgow-kiss type respect that I don´t recommend.   Most yards in the EU have regs, covenants, and politicians on top of  them (the squueze). They must satisfy all above - at the same time. They cannot, really, resist legitimate complaints. I was (am) good at legitimate complaints. I hate it. I do not ever again want to game/manage local bureaucrats to do their  jobs, if I can possibly avoid it.   Register at the local companies house as my-yacht-chandlery inc. low cost. Get a couple of local suppliers for nails, paint, whatever. Some business cards. For 700$ total (sometimes a lot less), You get pro discounts, and access  to everything. Don´t ever boast of it to yachties.    > > Only problem with such kind of boats is: marinas do not allow owners  > to work their own boats on marina property these days, but request to  > employ their contractors mandatorily: generally shitty work for  > unbelievably royal invoices, and You can't get off their reign before  > at least some of the elbowgrease of THEIR provenience is purchased to  > at least refloat the newly bargained Tupperware™ in some way or the other.   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)|
33862|33818|2016-12-03 18:06:40|riehlj2002|Re: Where did everyone go?|“There is a British saying: A yacht is a hole in seawater where You permanently throw in more money than You have.”  BOAT is actually an acronym for Break Out Another Thousand.   Sent from my Windows 10 phone  From: Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?      Word.  The boatmarket these days most definitely is a buyer market.  Even worse (for sellers): it's a market where sellers are squeezed between greedy yard owners and reluctant authorities in terms of anchoring/mooring on the one side and a sparse amount of REAL buyers who are as willing as capable of buying AND upkeeping a boat in the 30 to 40 feet range on the other.   And quite some bargains could be made by waiting for the next yard bill the owner/seller has to face.  I recurrently had offers for few years now where the seller at last wanted to give it away for the notorious 1.- € just to get rid of it in a lawful manner (You can not just give away an "environmental threat" like a boat or a not anymore roadworthy car, You've got to sell it to lawfully get rid of the responsibility in quite some countries of the EU).  Some of the marble marinas in Turkey have contracts nowadays in which they state that any yacht more than 4 weeks overdue in yardcosts automaticly changes into their ownership, no revision accepted; so after not paying your fares absolutely in time You could find Yourself in the situation to have to buy Your own yacht back.  A lot of the yards in Italy and France had vast problems after 2009, for lots of lots of formerly rich people went bankrupt and didn't pay their fees anymore but didn't think about moving their yachts, either. Some marinas got in real trouble as well with full harbours and no way to rid themselves from no-more-payers.  I personally sold some boats for the worth of the open bills broke owners owed me in 2010 and 2011, and the italian yardpeople eagerly helped with the paperwork in pretty inventive italian manner, just to get rid of the junk and get back places for paying customers asap.   And we still talk about boats in working condition, complete, sailable and floating for their own.  As long as a buyer is capable to invest his/her own elbow grease and is ready to take a "non-working" boat with serious issues, for example running rigging partly stolen or severely UV-damaged, standing rigging visibly in need of servicing/replacing, leaks ontop where rain got inside and caused serious mold, engine not running, Diesel in tanks hardened for bacteriae or something like that, we pretty fast are approaching the 1.- € range every time the next fees are due for the willing seller.  Only problem with such kind of boats is: marinas do not allow owners to work their own boats on marina property these days, but request to employ their contractors mandatorily: generally shitty work for unbelievably royal invoices, and You can't get off their reign before at least some of the elbowgrease of THEIR provenience is purchased to at least refloat the newly bargained Tupperware™ in some way or the other.  Longterm liveaboards do have much better cards when it comes to places where You can moore or even stay lain alongside for free, or at least for reasonable public harbour fees.  Not so much when You plan to leave Your boat alone for weeks or even months .... this does only work in a well insured thus costly marina with armed guards and technicians looking after Your toy and all ... You're going away for work to earn what You bin in the marina-people's pot the same moment - but still mostly cheaper than rebuy running rigging, some electronics, half of the winches, outboard engine and dinghi twice a year for a fortnight of vacation sailing.  What helps tremendously in cutting lying costs while staying aboard is really being self sufficient with no need for current, water (away from caught rain or watermaker outcome), cable or wastewater/sewage, the latter only doable with dry/compost toilets to avoid ordered cleanouts of black water holding tanks.  Being self sufficient allows You to pick Your anchoring roadstead without sqinting towards facilities.  My personal experience: where selfsufficient sailors gather, You'll find more people of the interesting to eccentric kind, and less wallet Yotties on retail therapy, provoking a whole microeconomy to "please" and rip them off in the same moment.  (one of the worst places of this kind by far in the Med is Turkey; i wonder what Florida or the Bay area would be like in this hindsght ...)  There is a British saying: A yacht is a hole in seawater where You permanently throw in more money than You have.  It definitely doesn't have to be like this, but You do have to know pretty well what to do and even better what to avoid to ensure not being chained towards one of those holes instantly.  And steel yachts in particular are a speciality, stronger than any other type of boat, usually watertight, really "dry" boats, serious runners when built well, but a real pain in the ass and nearly as unrepairable as carbon racers when neglegted and in a certain state of disrepair, for You do have to disassemble literally EVERYTHING to be able to weld in a bilge or at sides properly to avoid burning down the lot, what does ruin prices for preloved steelyachts after all, because You can not entirely see (and inspect) the hull without disassembling, either.  Well .... lots of text, but the years brought some experience, and sharing bytimes might be accepted as giving back, I hope.  Cheers G_B       Am 02.12.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]: Why do boats sell so low? Two reasons, fibreglass and ownership costs. Hurricanes are just not sinking fibreglass boats as fast as they are being made.  The first factor is, the very earliest fibreglass boats are as thick in fibreglass as the previous wood boats were in wood.  Mine is 2" of glass below the waterline.  It takes decades of no maintenance to rot a hole through inches of glass.  Unlike newer boats, with no core, the old boats degrade far more slowly from lack of maintenance.  Nearly all new boats are cored, and some are really thin in the fibreglass.   There are plenty of 1960's boats in better shape than 1980's and 1990's boats.  Realistically, these early boats are outlasting several people's cruising careers and show no sign of expiring any time soon.  Realistically, the maintenance required to make them effectively forever-boats need not be as attentive or frequent as that to make steel boats forever-boats.   Add to that all the new thin-walled cored fibreglass boats constantly being pumped out by manufacturers, being bought by people with too much money, and in a few years being sold onto the second hand market, and any buyer not committed to steel has lots of choices.   If the people who have not committed to steel are being drawn away by perfectly functional boats, loaded with equipment, demand goes down for the custom built steel boat.   A loaded old glass boat is seldom listed for more than $30k these days,  and sometimes closer to $20K.  If one looks at the old classic plastic, one can get a solid hull, sails and engine, but no modern chartplotter, radar or anything like that for less than $10K, sometimes half that if one looks inland, farther way from the saltwater brokerages.      The second factor is the yearly ownership costs which can range from zero to thousands a year.   I have mine out of the water, on my own private property, in an area were zoning does not prohibit boats from being, so zero incremental cost to own the boat another year.   If I had no place to keep it, I would be $3K-$6K a year for a storage or work yard around me.  In some depressed markets, one could rent enclosed industrial space cheaper than boat storage around me and then work indoors on their boat.   After an owner is no longer sailing regularly, these costs continue to add up year after year.  Eventually owners become sellers.  They may list their boat for sale for years, gradually lowering the price.  If their boat is not the darling that lands it as a lot of people's first choice, in a buyers market, to get ahead of the currently falling price in the boat market, the sellers will eventually finally sell it for as little as a few thousand.  I lost out on a few good ones waiting too long, when the seller finally said yes to someone else for thousands less than my last offer.   There is always someone looking to pay for the next year's storage at $3K -$6K a year, so there is always someone willing to go very low, just to get a boat off their hands.  A buyer with patience can get out on the water very inexpensively, compared to say buying a new family sedan.   Frankly, once a boat is large enough that one person cannot move it on the highway with a trailer and pickup truck, the owner is into cranes, transport trucks, boat yards and marinas, and they all want money.   So long as one is using the boat, these costs are quite acceptable.  If one is actively cruising, then the storage cost can approach zero.  Though Florida is notoriously less friendly to anchored or moored boats than most other places (likely for the reason of the nuisance longevity of fibreglass boats), there are still places in Florida that a boat can be anchored for $0.   Its a buyer's market, particularly for steel boats.  Boats that should be going for $80K are selling for $30K.  Think of it like a family sedan.  Do not expect to get any money for it in 10 or 20 years when you are done with it and get all the enjoyment you can from it until then.   When the time comes to sell, accept the realities of that day's market.  If money could be made building and selling 30' recreational steel boats, many big companies would be building and selling 30' recreational steel boats.   The people who make their own do it for their own reasons, including enjoying the process, to spread the cost out, and to allow money saving approaches to get to the end result.   As you observed, even orgami owners eventually sell, and the price is very attractive even when compared to building yourself, and using a lot of money saving approaches along the way.       Matt      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
33863|33818|2016-12-03 18:32:39|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|Read the article "Dream Boat or Derelict" in the November issue of Sail magazine, for the pitfalls of buying a used plastic boat. Scary!There are several  36 ft brentboats for sale at the moment ,mostly well built and outfitted. With the cost of rent, and shore living, one does not have to  live aboard very long to be money a head, over renting ashore. After that, the boat becomes freebe which owes you nothing. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :If you analyze it monetarily, it will never make sense when the cost to buy a used boat is less than the cost of materials to build one.  The bottom line is that there are too many boats.   It is relatively easy to find used fiberglass boats.     Some of them are incredibly cheap, and come with a lot of gear.   Marinas around the world are full of boats waiting for owners, some of who are desperate to sell up and move on.   Finding a good steel boat is more difficult but it is possible if you are patient and are willing to travel.  Unfortunately, there are far too many poorly built rust heaps.   You might get lucky and get a plain but well build metal boat that will keep you safe that you can slowly improve as you go along.Maybe the following is too rusty inside, I don't know but this is a good example.  It may surprise you what you can get....GANLEY STEEL 34       GANLEY STEEL 34 PICTURES TAKEN 29/11/2016 EXCEPT THE 2 ON HARDSTAND ONE OWNER, BUILT TO SURVEY AND LAUNCHED 2000.    View on www.trademe.co.nz     Preview by Yahoo   One thing to keep in mind is that you need a place to live while you build and you often need to rent a space to build the boat as well.  This adds up.  The biggest mistake I made when I built my boat was to live a half hour drive away from the build site.   This cost far too much time and money.    If you took a second job, bought a used boat, lived on it and saved your money with the same dedication it took to build, you would be light years ahead financially in two or three years.  You could also fix it up and sail it while building skills and sailing knowledge.If any of this stops you from starting to build a boat, then you should never start.  You really need passion and dedication that can't be stopped.  If you told me all this, I would have gone ahead anyway.   I think the best argument for building a boat (as long as you finish it) is that you will learn a tremendous amount of skills and confidence in the build process.   You will know your boat inside out.   Think of it is an education that will stand you well throughout the rest of your life.   You will also feel proud and have a tremendous feeling of accomplishment that you created something from nothing.  I don't have any, but I think in some ways it is like having a child.   A real joy, a real pain and a financial burden but for some people, they have to do it..... Cheers, Paul|
33864|33818|2016-12-03 18:35:51|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|As Paul has said, if you want to build your own steel boat ,origami knocks about a year off the project. What value do you put on getting out a year earlier ,in a better boat?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ninbubbas@...> wrote :smallboat - thanks for that. Again another one who is actually doing it and providing very reasoned advice. Ive been following along with your build. I guess the hardest thing in this decision is really what do i want to do with my time and money. I can see your passion and talent in building. you are doing a great job. But as you say, it's a pretty overwhelming thing on this side of it. The question is do I personally want to build or sail? i always heard that origami was one of the cheaper ways to get out and enjoy that cruising dream. That might been true 30 years ago but it sure doesn't seem so now. even 3 years and $25,000 or more is a big committment to put in before i can go cruise. honestly i can't argue with the many benefits you get from building and knowing youre boat inside and out. Absolutely true. but I just think I could see a lot of world over those three years with that money which is my real goal. I may not have all these skills in the end but maybe thats okay for me.Anyway lots to decide. but it sure helps to have real advice from those who know. theres a lot of hype out there that makes it all sound so easy and cheap.|
33865|33818|2016-12-04 05:46:12|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|I definitely keep and will reuse this one.Cheers mate!G_BAm 04.12.2016 um 00:05 schrieb riehlj2002@... [origamiboats]: BOAT is actually an acronym for Break Out Another Thousand.|
33866|33818|2016-12-04 06:32:51|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Don't forget with this timeline count to consider the amount of work it takes You to disassemble and structurally repair the younger ( = cored/sandwichbuilt ) GRP boats.All this time of disassembling and sawing apart and sawing still deeper and assessing the minimum amount of work definitely needed to get back to "structurally seaworthy" is already very difficult to estimate for a pro of years - so being a newbie You will have to ask some pro to get a picture ... takes a third more time to get one out there where You found a cheap building site each time You're unsure ...One possibility would be buying a complete but elder ferrocement or badly kept wooden boat with ballast and rigg and sails and gear and engine and interiour all in place and "simply" build a new origami hull just beside it, taking piece after piece from the wreck and refurbish / adapt while fitting out the new boat.You still will need quite some material and parts new, but this way costs will be reduced drastically, for even craigs list single offers will cost a lot more than all-in-one-place including the wrecked hull containing the lot.It's not easy to get rid of an emptied ferrocement hull, though, as long as You don't want to create a new riff for breeding fish, (fish absolutely love those artificial shelters!), easier would be to burn an old, peat-turned wooden hull piece by piece in Your oven. NEVER burn a keel, steven or tiller. Haunting hazard!There are lots of different ways towards the personal liveaboard - after You finally decided that You do want one.Until then, chartering or crewing might be a good way to find out.I recommend to crew in less convenient places where there is wind and demanding weather to get the real picture.What Moorings and people alike show You on their pictured catalogues is not all of it.G_BAm 04.12.2016 um 00:35 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]: As Paul has said, if you want to build your own steel boat ,origami knocks about a year off the project. What value do you put on getting out a year earlier ,in a better boat?|
33867|33818|2016-12-04 16:07:11|opuspaul|Re: Where did everyone go?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :Don't  forget with this timeline count to consider the amount of work it takes  You to disassemble and structurally repair the younger ( =  cored/sandwichbuilt ) GRP boats.This is true but not all cores are alike.   Balsa or ply cores are prone to rot, especially in the decks where water gets in through poorly sealed fittings.   Honeycomb or more exotic cores may not rot but may delaminate or let water in.  If I was looking for an older fiberglass boat, I would favor one with either solid glass or go with one that has a foam core.   I personally know of a guy who has a foam cored cored boat that has now done three circumnavigations.  I wouldn't want to grind on a reef with it for a week but it has proven to be a solid boat at sea and still looks good as new.  Derek Kelsall has written a lot about this....some of his old foam cored boats are still going strong.   He built Great Britain II in 1973 for the first round the world race using Airex foam.  It eventually sailed 7 times around the world and did over 50 Atlantic crossings.  This is an incredible record.  I think Trumpeter (built in1970) is in the South Pacific and still sailing strong.  http://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArticles/KCForTheRecord.pdfhttp://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArticles/KCTheCoreOfTheSandwich.pdf|
33868|33818|2016-12-04 16:23:10|Matt Malone|Re: Where did everyone go?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-639591470 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat.         Another factor when considering buying a solid sailboat inexpensively is, one is very unlikely to be able to keep it in the same marina / yard as where it currently sits.   I have had several offers of boats for $1, if I will promise to take it away from  that marina never to be seen again.   Those boats were pretty rough, and not what I was looking for anyway.  Further when I was looking at other boats, I contacted the marina they were currently in to make sure the current owners were not in arrears on payments,  and to ask about how much to keep the boat where it is for a year.   Several times I was told, I must move it, no amount of money would change their mind.  The boat I eventually bought, the marina that the boat was then in wanted 4-5 times their normal rate  for me to keep the boat there for any period of time.    Marina owners often want to see a boat gone, and anyone who buys it, they automatically suspect them of being trouble in the future.   It goes back to what Giuseppe was saying about the number of REAL  buyers there are who have the money to maintain a 30-40 foot boat.   For every one of them, there is another who will buy, and then underestimates the cost of keeping it.   One can imagine how certain boats attract the unrealistic buyer more than others and  how marinas find some boats too much of a nuisance to have around.       If one is shopping for a bargain, one should keep this in mind, as well as ownership costs, so that one does not become another unrealistic buyer.    Matt        <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:32 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where did everyone go?         Don't forget with this timeline count to consider the amount of work it takes You to disassemble and structurally repair the younger ( = cored/sandwichbuilt ) GRP boats.   All this time of disassembling and sawing apart and sawing still deeper and assessing the minimum amount of work definitely needed to get back to "structurally seaworthy" is already very difficult to estimate for a pro of years - so being a newbie You  will have to ask some pro to get a picture ... takes a third more time to get one out there where You found a cheap building site each time You're unsure ...   One possibility would be buying a complete but elder ferrocement or badly kept wooden boat with ballast and rigg and sails and gear and engine and interiour all in place and "simply" build a new origami hull just beside it, taking piece after piece from  the wreck and refurbish / adapt while fitting out the new boat.   You still will need quite some material and parts new, but this way costs will be reduced drastically, for even craigs list single offers will cost a lot more than all-in-one-place including the wrecked hull containing the lot.   It's not easy to get rid of an emptied ferrocement hull, though, as long as You don't want to create a new riff for breeding fish, (fish absolutely love those artificial shelters!), easier would be to burn an old, peat-turned wooden hull piece by piece  in Your oven.  NEVER burn a keel, steven or tiller. Haunting hazard!   There are lots of different ways towards the personal liveaboard - after You finally decided that You do want one.   Until then, chartering or crewing might be a good way to find out.   I recommend to crew in less convenient places where there is wind and demanding weather to get the real picture.   What Moorings and people alike show You on their pictured catalogues is not all of it.   G_B                      Am 04.12.2016 um 00:35 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:    As Paul has said, if you want to build your own steel boat ,origami knocks about a year off the project. What value do you put on getting out a year earlier ,in a better boat?                 |
33869|33818|2016-12-04 16:43:58|a.sobriquet|core deck repair|Matt,Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks?A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-853128703 #ygrps-yiv-853128703ygrps-yiv-1503187825 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in the end it is still a fibreglass boat...  Matt   |
33870|33818|2016-12-04 18:04:15|opuspaul|Re: Where did everyone go?|I know of several cored deck boats where most of the deck was rotten.  With balsa, the grain runs vertical and theoretically will impede  water ingress  but then they place it in a matt of small squares to help it follow the curves.   The water then travels along the edge of the squares and gets in to the core.   With plywood, the water and rot follows the grain.  I have found that the rot always goes much further than you think.   I know of one boat where the owners had just arrived back in Canada after sailing from Fiji via Hawaii.   They found the rot later in a survey when they tried to sell the boat.    They were really lucky that they had good weather....in a bad storm,  the whole foredeck of the boat could have ripped off.|
33871|33818|2016-12-04 18:46:52|Matt Malone|Re: core deck repair|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1448872247 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       A.S.   Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.      My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.       First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck.   I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.      I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.       http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg   You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.          1) I remove the offending hardware.   2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.    3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.    4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.     5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.     6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.     7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.     8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.     8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.     8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).     9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.     10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.    11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.      Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.       12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.     13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.    14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.   15) I let the entire mess harden.     16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.     Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.      Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:   17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.    18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.    19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.    20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.     21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.     22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.     23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.    24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.        With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.      If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.       Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                 |
33872|33818|2016-12-04 23:19:25|a.sobriquet|Re: core deck repair|Matt,Thanks for sharing your process. How many layers of fiberglass do you place in the cavity? As many as you can stuff in? Is it better to use fewer thick layers of glass, or more thinner layers? I suppose an open weave is best, to ensure the epoxy fully saturates the cloth.A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-34528779 #ygrps-yiv-34528779ygrps-yiv-973657027 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}A.S.Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.   My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test sample to be tested to failure.   First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of the deck.I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.  I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get rid of unstirred areas.   http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpgYou do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.   1) I remove the offending hardware. 2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.  3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.  4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.   5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.   6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.   7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.   8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.   8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.   8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).   9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.  Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.   10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.  11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.  Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.   12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.   13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.  14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK. 15) I let the entire mess harden.   16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy. Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.  Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.  18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.  19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.  20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.   21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.   22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.   23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.  24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.    With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour funnel are the keys to making this easy.  If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.   Matt    <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair  Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote : My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in the end it is still a fibreglass boat...   Matt    |
33873|33818|2016-12-05 00:00:05|Matt Malone|Re: core deck repair|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-195418719 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       We are replacing soggy balsa here and the outer skin of the hull.  Just epoxy with no glass is stronger than good balsa, and adding back as much glass as you cut out of the outer hull would be easy in the thickness of the core.   If one goes overboard and  absolutely stuffs glass in, one can make a plate-sized section of hull stronger than everything else by such a margin that, if there were ever an irresistible force pulling on say a bedded winch, it could rip a plate-sized chunk out of the hull.  In something  more comparable to the original design, perhaps the nuts on the inside would pull through the hull leaving 4 holes that could be patched temporarily with a piece of duct tape.   Stronger is not always better if it creates discontinuities that become the focus  of failures.      Also one can't turn a cored hull sailboat into a solid hulled sailboat one spot at a time.   One can eliminate soft spots and provide something solid to tighten nuts against but the inner and outer skin are all that is carrying load from one part of the  boat to another.       As for saturating the cloth this is done before the cloth is even introduced to the hole, on a table, using typical fibreglass techniques to wet cloth.   I recommended going wetter than needed on the cloth, because one need not make an optimal high-fibre-fraction  composite here -- the empty core space is so thick one does not have to work hard to get back to the same amount of glass.   Very wet fibre is easier to massage together to get the air out.   Its just fast and lazy.    I like cloth because it is easy to cut to cover an area evenly.   Nothing more.         The idea is to remove all of the bad core, to keep the rot from spreading, and seal the area where the problematic deck fitting was previously causing damage.       Matt       <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:19 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Thanks for sharing your process. How many layers of fiberglass do you place in the cavity? As many as you can stuff in? Is it better to use fewer thick layers of glass, or more thinner layers? I suppose an open weave is best, to ensure the epoxy fully saturates  the cloth. A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      A.S.   Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.      My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.       First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck.   I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.      I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.       http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg     You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.          1) I remove the offending hardware.   2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.    3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.    4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.     5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.     6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.     7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.     8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.     8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.     8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).     9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.     10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.    11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.      Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.       12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.     13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.    14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.   15) I let the entire mess harden.     16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.     Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.      Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:   17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.    18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.    19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.    20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.     21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.     22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.     23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.    24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.        With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.      If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.       Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                           |
33874|33818|2016-12-05 00:20:38|Sollitt, Charles Kevin|Re: core deck repair|        Buy a steel boat and stop this bull shit.   On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:           We are replacing soggy balsa here and the outer skin of the hull.  Just epoxy with no glass is stronger than good balsa, and adding back as much glass as you cut out of the outer hull would be easy in the thickness of the core.   If one goes overboard and  absolutely stuffs glass in, one can make a plate-sized section of hull stronger than everything else by such a margin that, if there were ever an irresistible force pulling on say a bedded winch, it could rip a plate-sized chunk out of the hull.  In something  more comparable to the original design, perhaps the nuts on the inside would pull through the hull leaving 4 holes that could be patched temporarily with a piece of duct tape.   Stronger is not always better if it creates discontinuities that become the focus  of failures.      Also one can't turn a cored hull sailboat into a solid hulled sailboat one spot at a time.   One can eliminate soft spots and provide something solid to tighten nuts against but the inner and outer skin are all that is carrying load from one part of the  boat to another.       As for saturating the cloth this is done before the cloth is even introduced to the hole, on a table, using typical fibreglass techniques to wet cloth.   I recommended going wetter than needed on the cloth, because one need not make an optimal high-fibre-fraction  composite here -- the empty core space is so thick one does not have to work hard to get back to the same amount of glass.   Very wet fibre is easier to massage together to get the air out.   Its just fast and lazy.    I like cloth because it is easy to cut to cover an area evenly.   Nothing more.         The idea is to remove all of the bad core, to keep the rot from spreading, and seal the area where the problematic deck fitting was previously causing damage.       Matt       <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:19 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Thanks for sharing your process. How many layers of fiberglass do you place in the cavity? As many as you can stuff in? Is it better to use fewer thick layers of glass, or more thinner layers? I suppose an open weave is best, to ensure the epoxy fully saturates  the cloth. A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      A.S.   Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.      My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.       First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck.   I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.      I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.       http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg     You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.          1) I remove the offending hardware.   2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.    3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.    4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.     5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.     6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.     7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.     8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.     8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.     8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).     9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.     10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.    11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.      Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.       12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.     13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.    14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.   15) I let the entire mess harden.     16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.     Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.      Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:   17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.    18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.    19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.    20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.     21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.     22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.     23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.    24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.        With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.      If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.       Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                                  |
33875|33818|2016-12-05 04:40:23|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: core deck repair|Matt, this 24 steps programme of Yours was described excellent; One recognises a real practitioner having learned his methods by doing.24 steps which sound like a, as a precaution, doubled 12-step-proramme to get off the plastic, finally, don't they?A metal boat, well thought out and built, will be a dry boat and will not develop this sort of major issues (there are others, but that's another thread). I saw more than one Hongkong clipper, very, VERY well built, sturdy like tanks, sporting sandwich decks cored with endgrain teak (dating back to the time the real stuff still existed), but those still had vast areas of wooden core rotted down to spongy matter, and You still had to do Your research to get to it.Once I had a woodcored (endgrain abachi) grp deck to repair where the keelstepped mast had gone through the deck towards the coaming like a zipper down the fly ... maststep wasn't in his best shape either, previous the rip, I have to admit, and the customer was like "... we probably could have reefed earlier, but there was this other 40 footer by our side I didn't want to let pass easily ...", but that's all still no reason for a wrecked deck.Rot in wood is the natural way nature gets rid of fallen trees, no matter balsa, maple or teak: wetting it and keeping it wet will result in natural deterioration back to soil, no exclusion, neither inside GRP constructions.So, while most woods might float by their own (what steel wouldn't do ...), but from the perspective of suitability to longterm water exposition it is NOT a material You want to build Your seven seas longdistance daily cruiser with in the first place. (Without knowing exactly how to steadily keep an eye on which particular parts of the boat, and why, that is ...).The step from "high maintenance" wood up to "low maintenance" grp in reality was not any sort of step you learn when doing Your first real osmosis treatment of a solid glass hull involving nutshell-blasting, forced drying out, reglassing, reprimering, refairing, repainting and anxiously watchting Your waterpass for the subsequent years, not to mention recurrently poking and playing around with masking tape and plasticine for weeks in a row between seasons, just to fix up winch bases and hatch frames on a regular basis.Which closes the circle to metal boats.Your doubled-12-steps-programme is, I suppose, one of the bigger factors why longterm liveaboards and long distance sailors do by far perfer metal boats in the first place; (including me, lately, while I did need some time to get to this point.). Mention: A lot of "second boats" are metal boats, and even more "third" aka "ultimate" boats.Cheers G_BAm 05.12.2016 um 00:46 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                              A.S. Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.    My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.     First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck. I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.    I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.     http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.      1) I remove the offending hardware.  2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.   3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.   4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.    5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.    6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.    7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.    8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.    8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.    8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).    9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.    10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.   11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.    Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.     12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.    13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.   14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.  15) I let the entire mess harden.    16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.   Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.    Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down: 17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.   18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.   19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.   20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.    21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.    22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.    23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.   24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.      With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.    If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.     Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair        Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :    My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                                          |
33876|33818|2016-12-05 07:17:39|a.sobriquet|Re: core deck repair|Matt,A thought on another option for this step. Instead of your plasticine "volcano" maybe one could drill a small hole at the bottom of the cavity and use a syringe to finish filling the cavity with epoxy. That might have the effect of flushing air bubbles out better than flooding from the top end.A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-658430142 #ygrps-yiv-658430142ygrps-yiv-1911054993 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}...11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.  Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.   12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.   13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.  14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK... Matt |
33877|33818|2016-12-05 09:26:13|Matt Malone|Re: core deck repair|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1557314176 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Absolutely.      Matt       <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Sollitt, Charles Kevin' charles.sollitt@... [origamiboats]  <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2016 12:03 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] core deck repair           Buy a steel boat and stop this bull shit.   On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:           We are replacing soggy balsa here and the outer skin of the hull.  Just epoxy with no glass is stronger than good balsa, and adding back as much glass as you cut out of the outer hull would be easy in the thickness of the core.   If one goes overboard and  absolutely stuffs glass in, one can make a plate-sized section of hull stronger than everything else by such a margin that, if there were ever an irresistible force pulling on say a bedded winch, it could rip a plate-sized chunk out of the hull.  In something  more comparable to the original design, perhaps the nuts on the inside would pull through the hull leaving 4 holes that could be patched temporarily with a piece of duct tape.   Stronger is not always better if it creates discontinuities that become the focus  of failures.      Also one can't turn a cored hull sailboat into a solid hulled sailboat one spot at a time.   One can eliminate soft spots and provide something solid to tighten nuts against but the inner and outer skin are all that is carrying load from one part of the  boat to another.       As for saturating the cloth this is done before the cloth is even introduced to the hole, on a table, using typical fibreglass techniques to wet cloth.   I recommended going wetter than needed on the cloth, because one need not make an optimal high-fibre-fraction  composite here -- the empty core space is so thick one does not have to work hard to get back to the same amount of glass.   Very wet fibre is easier to massage together to get the air out.   Its just fast and lazy.    I like cloth because it is easy to cut to cover an area evenly.   Nothing more.         The idea is to remove all of the bad core, to keep the rot from spreading, and seal the area where the problematic deck fitting was previously causing damage.       Matt       <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:19 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Thanks for sharing your process. How many layers of fiberglass do you place in the cavity? As many as you can stuff in? Is it better to use fewer thick layers of glass, or more thinner layers? I suppose an open weave is best, to ensure the epoxy fully saturates  the cloth. A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      A.S.   Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.      My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.       First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck.   I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.      I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.       http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg     You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.          1) I remove the offending hardware.   2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.    3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.    4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.     5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.     6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.     7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.     8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.     8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.     8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).     9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.     10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.    11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.      Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.       12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.     13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.    14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.   15) I let the entire mess harden.     16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.     Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.      Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:   17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.    18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.    19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.    20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.     21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.     22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.     23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.    24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.        With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.      If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.       Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                                        |
33878|33818|2016-12-05 09:51:58|Matt Malone|Re: core deck repair|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1234037427 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Yes Giuseppe,   This 24 step process was a much simpler idea, before I did it and added steps.       It was offensive in a structural sense to be scooping mush out from between two layers of fibreglass.   During the process, one surveys the entire deck and the entire boat looks like trash.   This process was merely a way to return the boat to being structural  "in my mind".   In reality, I never forgot the limitations of glass.   I had a lot of fun sailing after it was fixed.  It was just a way for me to be least-disappointed with my boat.      If this were steel, I could sling my little inverter welder on my shoulder, grab a few rods and weld the loose stanchion bracket back down.   A little metal would have more strength.  To prevent stress concentrations, and movement from breaking a little  bit of steel like a coat hanger, I add more steel over a wider footing area.  If it were a leak around a winch, off it comes, quick work with a knotted cup brush to clean the surface, paint, silicon and back on the winch goes.   There is no comparison in the  total strength of the repair.       Reading the entire 24 step process, and the ludicrousness of using packing tape and plasticine is meant to be a cautionary tale ahead of anyone considering buying a cored fibreglass boat.   This process only works on endcut balsa and foam.   If one has plywood  core in the problem area, like many boats use plywood inserts in the core under stress points like winches, water will have wicked along the wood fibres in all 4 directions away from the infiltration.  Further, the sheet metal scoop cannot scoop half-good  half-bad plywood.  A bigger process is needed.  If one has a cored fibreglass boat with a little core damage around a deck fitting, the procedure I describe is a way to be least-disappointed with the boat.   Matt              <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2016 4:40 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, this 24 steps programme of Yours was described excellent;  One recognises a real practitioner having learned his methods by doing.   24 steps which sound like a, as a precaution, doubled 12-step-proramme to get off the plastic, finally, don't they?    A metal boat, well thought out and built, will be a dry boat and will not develop this sort of major issues (there are others, but that's another thread).    I saw more than one Hongkong clipper, very, VERY well built, sturdy like tanks, sporting sandwich decks cored with endgrain teak (dating back to the time the real stuff still existed), but those still had vast areas of wooden core rotted down to spongy  matter, and You still had to do Your research to get to it.   Once I had a woodcored (endgrain abachi) grp deck to repair where the keelstepped mast had gone through the deck towards the coaming like a zipper down the fly ... maststep wasn't in his best shape either, previous the rip, I have to admit, and the customer  was like "... we probably could have reefed earlier, but there was this other 40 footer by our side I didn't want to let pass easily ...", but that's all still no reason for a wrecked deck.   Rot in wood is the natural way nature gets rid of fallen trees, no matter balsa, maple or teak: wetting it and keeping it wet will result in natural deterioration back to soil, no exclusion, neither inside GRP constructions.   So, while most woods might float by their own (what steel wouldn't do ...), but from the perspective of suitability to longterm water exposition it is NOT a material You want to build Your seven seas longdistance daily cruiser with in the first place.  (Without knowing exactly how to steadily keep an eye on which particular parts of the boat, and why, that is ...).   The step from "high maintenance" wood up to "low maintenance" grp in reality was not any sort of step you learn when doing Your first real osmosis treatment of a solid glass hull involving nutshell-blasting, forced drying out, reglassing, reprimering,  refairing, repainting and anxiously watchting Your waterpass for the subsequent years, not to mention recurrently poking and playing around with masking tape and plasticine for weeks in a row between seasons, just to fix up winch bases and hatch frames on  a regular basis.   Which closes the circle to metal boats.    Your doubled-12-steps-programme is, I suppose, one of the bigger factors why longterm liveaboards and long distance sailors do by far perfer metal boats in the first place; (including me, lately, while I did need some time to get to this point.).     Mention: A lot of "second boats" are metal boats, and even more "third" aka "ultimate" boats.   Cheers G_B                       Am 05.12.2016 um 00:46 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:            A.S.   Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.      My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.       First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck.   I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.      I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.       http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg   You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.           1) I remove the offending hardware.   2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.    3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.    4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.     5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.     6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.     7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.     8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.     8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.     8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).     9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.     10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.    11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.      Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.       12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.     13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.    14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.   15) I let the entire mess harden.     16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.     Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.      Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:   17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.    18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.    19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.    20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.     21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.     22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.     23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.    24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.        With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.      If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.       Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                                    |
33879|33818|2016-12-05 12:28:38|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: core deck repair|The packing-tape-and-plasticine process is, by principle, what over here boatbuilders learn on-site and in schools when it comes to the core problem - with materials which allow this, like endgrain and soft cellfoams, of course. Syringes, airpressure, vacuum bagging, weighting down, straddling, bracing, wedging or whatever helps optional ...Boatbuilders ever were and still are a pretty inventive breed of craftsmen, and together with measuring tools for various inside curves the part of "how to get the fu**ing core-mush out without dumping all the surface?" is an everlasting highlight on any yard having to cope with such sorts of repairs.Sometimes, if a great area is affected or the deterioration of the core isn't complete yet, it might be better to keep the original topside of the sandwich and structurally rebuild the deck from underneath. I prefer to put my work in a metal boat these days, to be honest.What we sometimes did with ply areas after high temperature forced drying under intermitting pressure was using a fast epoxy in low viscosity and sucking this into the deteriorated core with a massive vacuum instead of "only" gravity feed.Smaller vacuum pumps with pretty good results in terms of evacuation could be bought very cheap from intensive care hospitals or their suppliers: pumps that are used in artificial respiration - I have a couple in use for wood laminates in homebrew bags, got each pump for about 20.- €. A reasonably dimensioned vacuum storage to create a ramp of underpressure to start serious suction more quickly could be canibalised from hotwater heating systems: spherical pressure tanks are less prone to collapse under vacuum than cylindrical ones.I had good results with cylindrical propan/butan tanks as well, though.G_BAm 05.12.2016 um 15:51 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                          Reading the entire 24 step process, and the ludicrousness of using packing tape and plasticine is meant to be a cautionary tale ahead of anyone considering buying a cored fibreglass boat.   This process only works on endcut balsa and foam.   If one has plywood  core in the problem area, like many boats use plywood inserts in the core under stress points like winches, water will have wicked along the wood fibres in all 4 directions away from the infiltration.  Further, the sheet metal scoop cannot scoop half-good  half-bad plywood.  A bigger process is needed.  If one has a cored fibreglass boat with a little core damage around a deck fitting, the procedure I describe is a way to be least-disappointed with the boat.Matt |
33880|33818|2016-12-05 14:15:06|opuspaul|Re: core deck repair|What is wrong with learning new skills?   There have been many steel boats with glass and cored decks or components built over the years.  In NZ, most of the ones I have seen have been built that way.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <charles.sollitt@...> wrote :        Buy a steel boat and stop this bull shit.                          |
33881|33818|2016-12-05 14:17:31|Alan Boucher|Re: core deck repair|Having seen some people work from the bottom to repair core damage, I can only say that gravity is not your friend.  I have done several decks from the top.  Step I: identify the area by feeling movement or sounding.  Step 2: cut around the area neatly and pry up the deck piece as a single sheet. You may have to break some still adhered clumps from the deck.  Once you have restored the core in whatever way you chose.  You can now epoxy the original deck back down.  Feather the joint about 10 times the deck thickness and apply glass cloth and or tape to the seam.   Sand fair and paint and you're back in business.  By the way I have found epoxy to be far superior in strength and adhesion to polyester.  Some people claim that epoxy is incompatible with polyester resin or gel coat, but as long as the epoxy is fully cured I have never found this to be the case. On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                The packing-tape-and-plasticine process is, by principle, what over here boatbuilders learn on-site and in schools when it comes to the core problem - with materials which allow this, like endgrain and soft cellfoams, of course. Syringes, airpressure, vacuum bagging, weighting down, straddling, bracing, wedging or whatever helps optional ...Boatbuilders ever were and still are a pretty inventive breed of craftsmen, and together with measuring tools for various inside curves the part of "how to get the fu**ing core-mush out without dumping all the surface?" is an everlasting highlight on any yard having to cope with such sorts of repairs.Sometimes, if a great area is affected or the deterioration of the core isn't complete yet, it might be better to keep the original topside of the sandwich and structurally rebuild the deck from underneath. I prefer to put my work in a metal boat these days, to be honest.What we sometimes did with ply areas after high temperature forced drying under intermitting pressure was using a fast epoxy in low viscosity and sucking this into the deteriorated core with a massive vacuum instead of "only" gravity feed.Smaller vacuum pumps with pretty good results in terms of evacuation could be bought very cheap from intensive care hospitals or their suppliers: pumps that are used in artificial respiration - I have a couple in use for wood laminates in homebrew bags, got each pump for about 20.- €. A reasonably dimensioned vacuum storage to create a ramp of underpressure to start serious suction more quickly could be canibalised from hotwater heating systems: spherical pressure tanks are less prone to collapse under vacuum than cylindrical ones.I had good results with cylindrical propan/butan tanks as well, though.G_BAm 05.12.2016 um 15:51 schrieb Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:                         Reading the entire 24 step process, and the ludicrousness of using packing tape and plasticine is meant to be a cautionary tale ahead of anyone considering buying a cored fibreglass boat.   This process only works on endcut balsa and foam.   If one has plywood  core in the problem area, like many boats use plywood inserts in the core under stress points like winches, water will have wicked along the wood fibres in all 4 directions away from the infiltration.  Further, the sheet metal scoop cannot scoop half-good  half-bad plywood.  A bigger process is needed.  If one has a cored fibreglass boat with a little core damage around a deck fitting, the procedure I describe is a way to be least-disappointed with the boat.Matt                                        -- Al Boucher  |
33882|33818|2016-12-05 17:05:39|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: core deck repair|Gravity usually isn't Your friend when playing around with sticky goo.  Working from the underside is  something we did as long as the inner side would have been a mess and to be changed/renewed anyway, bulkheads rotted out of joints or headliner ruined to the point of no repair including the structural sidings in the area of deckgear or penetrating gear, for example.  Epoxy helps a lot with the gravity thingy, for You can fill it with silica to the point it won't drip or run anymore while You will not loose any of its gluing and curing properties.  Other thing what helped a lot every time was vacuum bagging: once You sacked it, You owned it.  Needs absofu**inglutely meticulous preparation, but is worth every minute of it: new core material glued in and faired in a first step, You even could work the most undersides "on the saloontable", and bring it up where You need it, already IN the vacuum bag: two or more people (= four hands on four corners) lift the wet mess up in the sack with circumferential butyl gasket, and one helper opens the vacuum storage slowly to suck it roughly in place, one last check, and there You go evacuating to the point of bubble breaking. Best done with transparent LDPE foil as a sack to see what's happening.  In terms of polyester and epoxy we found that in most cases it's a oneway road: once You messed up Your laminate (already prone to some extent of repair) with epo, it needs a lot of dirty tricks to get polyester cured properly at all again.  One nasty inhibitor is even the slightest amine blushing, which could be washed away using considerable amounts of aceton after heavily tempering the newly epoxified area, with "heavily" in the 80 to 90 degrees Celsius region (we would put in resistance wires for temperature measuring in the bordering layer to have a reference INSIDE the laminate afterwards, when we saw tempering would be required).  Heating the lot towards 90 deg C throughout is a vast amount of energy.  We used a "modified" heater for Oktoberfest tents, max 200 kW (warmth) gasoil burner and vent, with "modified" as we had to rip out the heat limiter to reach the temperatures needed.  This device was used for baking prepreg cloth over foam core resulting in 14 meter monocoque casco hulls, too.  Another inhibitor is the quality of the polyester used in the first place.  Some polyesters (of the lesser quality and the cheaper price, most loved by penny pinching executives) do need a number of little chemical helpers to work out as boathulls. When generously added, some of those helping components do not react thoroughly because they do not find enough "partner molecules" to mate with, in the mixed goo. What leads to residues which can cause strange reactions together with epoxy in neighbouring areas. (and is one of the chemical sources of osmosis ... there we are, Ladies and Gentlemen!) Not a problem for the epo laminate, but a real pain in the ass when further polyester should be applied. Paraffined Topcoat in top notch quality works somewhat reasonably, isophtal resin with next to no cobalt accelerator sometimes with luck, accelerated orthophtal resin probably in most cases not at all, as a rule of thumb. And nothing is more annoying than having to make an apprentice wash away some fife kilograms of glass and polyester with a ten kilo can of acetone inside an only partly dissasembled aft cabin, to rid You of at least most of the uncured mess ...  Cheers G_B    Am 05.12.2016 um 19:46 schrieb Alan Boucher alsthe1@... [origamiboats]:   >  > Having seen some people work from the bottom to repair core damage, I can only say that gravity is not your friend.  I have done several decks from the top.  Step I: identify the area by feeling movement or sounding.  Step 2: cut around the area neatly and pry up the deck piece as a single sheet. You may have to break some still adhered clumps from the deck.  Once you have restored the core in whatever way you chose.  You can now epoxy the original deck back down.  Feather the joint about 10 times the deck thickness and apply glass cloth and or tape to the seam.   Sand fair and paint and you're back in business.  By the way I have found epoxy to be far superior in strength and adhesion to polyester.  Some people claim that epoxy is incompatible with polyester resin or gel coat, but as long as the epoxy is fully cured I have never found this to be the case. |
33883|33818|2016-12-06 13:38:02|theboilerflue|Re: core deck repair|Wow. Well I guess I will never complain of the "painful" proess of having to scrape out the foam on the inside, weld, grind, repaint and foam ever agian.|
33884|33818|2016-12-10 13:14:05|mountain man|Re: core deck repair|       Last summer I came across a Holland ex racing boat for a cheap price, the hull being balsa core all around. It was full of soft spot everywhere, not worthed the trouble to fix. It would need to redo the whole hull from one end to another. Good for parts though. Martin   On 2016-12-05, at 09:52, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:           Yes Giuseppe,   This 24 step process was a much simpler idea, before I did it and added steps.       It was offensive in a structural sense to be scooping mush out from between two layers of fibreglass.   During the process, one surveys the entire deck and the entire boat looks like trash.   This process was merely a way to return the boat to being structural  "in my mind".   In reality, I never forgot the limitations of glass.   I had a lot of fun sailing after it was fixed.  It was just a way for me to be least-disappointed with my boat.      If this were steel, I could sling my little inverter welder on my shoulder, grab a few rods and weld the loose stanchion bracket back down.   A little metal would have more strength.  To prevent stress concentrations, and movement from breaking a little  bit of steel like a coat hanger, I add more steel over a wider footing area.  If it were a leak around a winch, off it comes, quick work with a knotted cup brush to clean the surface, paint, silicon and back on the winch goes.   There is no comparison in the  total strength of the repair.       Reading the entire 24 step process, and the ludicrousness of using packing tape and plasticine is meant to be a cautionary tale ahead of anyone considering buying a cored fibreglass boat.   This process only works on endcut balsa and foam.   If one has plywood  core in the problem area, like many boats use plywood inserts in the core under stress points like winches, water will have wicked along the wood fibres in all 4 directions away from the infiltration.  Further, the sheet metal scoop cannot scoop half-good  half-bad plywood.  A bigger process is needed.  If one has a cored fibreglass boat with a little core damage around a deck fitting, the procedure I describe is a way to be least-disappointed with the boat.   Matt              <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2016 4:40 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, this 24 steps programme of Yours was described excellent;  One recognises a real practitioner having learned his methods by doing.   24 steps which sound like a, as a precaution, doubled 12-step-proramme to get off the plastic, finally, don't they?    A metal boat, well thought out and built, will be a dry boat and will not develop this sort of major issues (there are others, but that's another thread).    I saw more than one Hongkong clipper, very, VERY well built, sturdy like tanks, sporting sandwich decks cored with endgrain teak (dating back to the time the real stuff still existed), but those still had vast areas of wooden core rotted down to spongy  matter, and You still had to do Your research to get to it.   Once I had a woodcored (endgrain abachi) grp deck to repair where the keelstepped mast had gone through the deck towards the coaming like a zipper down the fly ... maststep wasn't in his best shape either, previous the rip, I have to admit, and the customer  was like "... we probably could have reefed earlier, but there was this other 40 footer by our side I didn't want to let pass easily ...", but that's all still no reason for a wrecked deck.   Rot in wood is the natural way nature gets rid of fallen trees, no matter balsa, maple or teak: wetting it and keeping it wet will result in natural deterioration back to soil, no exclusion, neither inside GRP constructions.   So, while most woods might float by their own (what steel wouldn't do ...), but from the perspective of suitability to longterm water exposition it is NOT a material You want to build Your seven seas longdistance daily cruiser with in the first place.  (Without knowing exactly how to steadily keep an eye on which particular parts of the boat, and why, that is ...).   The step from "high maintenance" wood up to "low maintenance" grp in reality was not any sort of step you learn when doing Your first real osmosis treatment of a solid glass hull involving nutshell-blasting, forced drying out, reglassing, reprimering,  refairing, repainting and anxiously watchting Your waterpass for the subsequent years, not to mention recurrently poking and playing around with masking tape and plasticine for weeks in a row between seasons, just to fix up winch bases and hatch frames on  a regular basis.   Which closes the circle to metal boats.    Your doubled-12-steps-programme is, I suppose, one of the bigger factors why longterm liveaboards and long distance sailors do by far perfer metal boats in the first place; (including me, lately, while I did need some time to get to this point.).     Mention: A lot of "second boats" are metal boats, and even more "third" aka "ultimate" boats.   Cheers G_B                       Am 05.12.2016 um 00:46 schrieb Matt Malone  m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]:           A.S.   Since I have seen at least one Brent boat with what looked like a fibreglass over plywood pilot house, no, I do not think it is stretching it to tell how I do spot repairs of fibreglass.      My method was inspired by creating composite test samples for testing in a university lab.   The test samples were connected to end tabs or end plates using epoxy.   An area of epoxy bonding was sufficient to transfer enough load to allow the composite test  sample to be tested to failure.       First, the deck area in question is usually around a leaking through-bolt.   The first repairs I made were to my deck where the stanchion post on the port side attached to the deck with 4 through-bolts.  People would grab the stanchion post and use it like  a cane to get in and out.  The stress crushed the core.  The working broke the water seal.  Over time the core absorbed water and became spongy and the outer deck was cut by the bracket that supports the stanchion post.   My method works on sloping areas of  the deck.   I like 2 hour epoxy for core work.  Long enough that things remain liquid for a long time.  Short enough that one can get 3 consecutive cures in between lunch and sunset.   If one works fast, one work on several repairs in pipeline.  By the time the epoxy  is poured on the last one, the epoxy on the first one is hard and one can start on the next set of steps.      I used straight-sided clear, stiff polystyrene party cups to mix epoxy in, and popsicle sticks to stir the resin and hardener together (2 minutes of stirring minimum until it turns completely clear again.  Make sure to scrape the inside of the cup to get  rid of unstirred areas.       http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg5/Crystal-clear-polystyrene-cup_538015.jpg   You do not want curved sides, surface patterns, or ridges near the top or bottom.  When the popsicle stick stands up against the side, it should make contact from top to bottom.   There are 20 types of cups that are wrong, and the right cups are just as  cheap, in a different dollar store, or grocery store.           1) I remove the offending hardware.   2) Cut out the outer glass in the area of the outer glass damage -- just do it, make sure not to over-cut where the corners of the hole are going to be.  I was working with glass damage of 4 to 12 square inches or 2 inches by 3 inches, give or take, not  large.   Now I have a 4 to 12 square inch hole in the outer deck and spongey end-cut balsa is showing.    3) I scoop out the wet end-cut balsa in the area of the hole.    4) Then I make a tool out of a strip of sheet metal that is as wide as the thickness of the core in the deck.  I use the strip of sheet metal like a spoon to reach between the two layers of the deck and I dig out core until I find good core all around the  hole.   Rotten core drips water when you squeeze it in your fingers.  Bad core scoops out easily and silently.   Good core sounds like you are hollowing out a gourd with a balsa interior, and pieces of balsa remain stuck to the inner face of the two layers  of deck.   If there are no little stuck pieces, then there was delamination, keep digging.  Now I have a hole and a cavity all around it.  The cavity around the repair hole is now going to be the bonding area to transfer loads across the area of the hole.     5) There is cleaning and drying of the inside face of the inner and outer glass.     6) At the up-hill most point of the cavity I drill a breather hole through the outer glass of 1/8" in diameter, but, it could be smaller -- this is how air will get out.     7) Just downhill of this point, I drill a second hold, a filler hole, of 1/8"  -- leave 1/2" or more between holes.     8) I apply packing tape to the underside of the inner deck, from inside the boat, to seal any holes into the cabin.     8a) From negative experiences, I place an empty tote in the boat, under the area of the repair, to catch any leaking epoxy.     8b) From negative experiences, I mix a tiny amount of epoxy and get it all over the inner surface of the cavity, to seal it.   I let this at least partially set (while I am scooping out another rotten spot).     9) Then I cut pieces of glass cloth in the shape of the cavity, a little smaller -- it is only meant to lap the edges of the hole a little.   I make it extra wet with epoxy because I do not want to have to deal with air bubbles between layers of cloth.   Place the cloth into the cavity, between the inner and outer deck layers, being careful not to get epoxy on the surface of the deck around the hole -- packing tape will not stick to wet epoxy, that ruins the entire plan.     10) When I have come close to filling the cavity, I use overlapping runs of packing tape on the top side of the deck, spanning the hole to cover it.   This tape makes the form that will be the new top surface of the deck when the repair is done.    11) Then I form a volcano shape in plasticine and stick it to the deck around the filler hole uphill of the repair.  The hole down the middle of the volcano is now the funnel.   Then I start pouring thin liquid epoxy in the filler hole.      Very important, epoxy releases heat when it cures.  Never have more than about 1" thickness of curing epoxy anywhere or it can overheat and bubble, even smoke.   Even over 1/2" might overheat and discolour so I recommend keeping it under 1/2".   If the core  was thick, pour epoxy into the cavity in several layers of about 1/2" thick, allowing time to cure and cool between pours.   If it is cool out, like 15C / 60F, then a little thicker layers will be OK.   If you are in the sun and it is 40C / 100F your epoxy  may harden before you finish the repair -- slow hardener may be needed.   This is an excellent repair to do in the spring, when it is cool but dry.       12) I touch and vibrate the packing tape surface gently to help air bubbles move up toward the breather hole.  If the deck is really slanted, the hydrostatic pressure of the epoxy in the cavity may make the tape dome-up, or even fail.  I have placed a board  and weight across the packing tape to prevent the repair from taking a domed shape and hardening.     13) I keep adding epoxy until all the air comes out the breather hole and epoxy starts seeping out.    14) Quick, before the epoxy wets the deck around the breather hole, I place packing tape over the breather hole.   It would help if epoxy were added very slowly toward the end of filling to keep this from being a mess.  There will be some epoxy standing  in the plasticine volcano/funnel, but that is OK.   15) I let the entire mess harden.     16) I peel off the packing tape both inside and on the top-side of the deck.  I remove the volcano, breaking off the inverted cone of hardened epoxy.     Done, a solid fibreglass deck has replaced rotten core in a small area.   Without trying too hard with the glass fabric, or the shape of the hole, one has an area of deck probably much stronger than the original.      Now, if this was a spot where something needs to be bedded down:   17) I would drill holes for mounting, but, drill them 1/4" / 6mm larger than needed.    18) Tape the inside, fill the holes from the outside and let them harden into an epoxy plug.    19) Then I re-drill the holes again, but this time, the right size.    20) The plug is now an 1/8"/3mm shell of epoxy with no glass fibres sticking into it around each bolt hole.  Water likes to run along the length of fibres, that is why the epoxy plug is important before drilling through-bolt holes.     21) I like to paint at this point, to seal the surface of the epoxy, including the insides of the holes.   Paint on epoxy is not a very water-proof finish, but, it is better than raw epoxy.     22) I have preferred putting down stainless steel backing plates, inside and out at this point, held on by a thick layer of silicon under the outer plate.     23) Then I bolt the hardware back on, not tightening the bolts as to not squirt the silicon out.  I do the last touches to the silicon beads around the backing plates.    24) A few days later, I tighten the bolts holding the hardware down.        With practice, one can get an assembly line of these repairs going and in the process of hardening, and have a number done in one day.   Cut, scoop, tape, cloth, tape, volcano, pour.   Using tape as the seal and form, and the plasticine volcano as a pour  funnel are the keys to making this easy.      If a boat has huge areas of rotten core, like square feet, theoretically, this could be done, with 2x the length of the scooper tool between access holes, but, I would not bother doing it.  For $1, one can get a boat where the problems are localized a few  pieces of bedded hardware, or no problems at all in the deck.   If there were water in the core in the hull, not deck, I would not buy the boat.   As good as cored hulls can be (built-in-insulation and a shower-stall like interior), there are just too many  ways for someone to get a boat that does not have core problems yet, or, has no core at all.       Matt            <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:43 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] core deck repair         Matt, Would it be stretching the good will of this steel boat community too far to ask you how you repair cored decks? A.S.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :      My 23' boat has a core in the deck.   It is end-grain balsa to stiffen the deck and make it not bouncy.   I have developed a method using packing tape and plasticine to quickly change any damaged core areas into generously solid fiberglass areas.   It took  me days to figure out the first one, now, I can do several damaged core areas all at the same time, in an afternoon.   Rotted core in a deck is now easy for me.    Compared to welding an entire boat, re-bedding hardware is not that much trouble.   Yes, in  the end it is still a fibreglass boat...     Matt                                          |
33885|33818|2016-12-10 14:27:08|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: core deck repair|Might be a problem nowadays to rid You of the bigger part of that bargain after the parts are repurposed.We used to cut up donor hulls by chain saw or sawsall into pieces one person could handle in the eighties and nineties and dump those in the fuel for cement plants - they stopped paying for it by weight at the end of the eighties and started charging by volume beginning mid nineties.No more dumping "reinforced resin products containing undefined chemical ingredients" towards cement plants, or general garbage incineration plants at all, these days in Europe (and absolutely no landfill disposal either, of course): You got to find somebody who takes the lot at all, and mustn't be picky with his ideas in terms of "price" to let the rest of the donor hull disappear.Don't know what the situation is alike in the U.S. or Canada in particular these days, but I do know that formerly watersport-oriented communities and counties had vast problems with environmentally responsible disposal of left behind plastic boats in estuaries and bights past the banking meltdown - the environmental thingy might get back to "sloppy" again after the inauguration of the Donald, though. (In case that electoral college should actually pick him ...)It still might be a nice way to gain some gear in racing boat quality for next-to-nothing, and racers tend to have enough pricey winches for example to keep what Your cruiser needs are and pay for the disposal with the ones You sell ... G_BAm 10.12.2016 um 19:14 schrieb mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]: not worthed the trouble to fix. It would need to redo the whole hull from one end to another.Good for parts though.|
33886|33818|2016-12-10 14:50:05|Matt Malone|Constant Cruising|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1569959219 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       This is a story I read:    http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20161205-why-young-londoners-are-moving-to-houseboats            Why young Londoners are moving to houseboats  www.bbc.com  Would you trade your flat for a life of cruising the canals? These young Londoners have – and in the process they’ve not only saved money, but found a new way of life       If I understand what Brent has said in the past, he is a constant cruiser, in a Brent-boat of course.     Matt              |
33887|33818|2016-12-10 15:29:25|opuspaul|Re: Constant Cruising|Here is one of the best sailing movies I have seen.  I thought it really captures the spirit ....Chasing Bubbles - Full Movie                             Chasing Bubbles - Full Movie   If not available on your device, see the movie here: https://vimeo.com/184028703 This is the movie about wildman Alex Rust, who at 25, traded in his midweste...              View on www.youtube.com              Preview by Yahoo              |
33888|33888|2016-12-13 16:39:50|wanderingwilson|Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|Hello,Last year I bought Nomadic a BS 31. It is in Guaymas Mexico where it has been sitting for years. I want to repaint the entire boat while it is there. The hull was painted years ago i was told then never went back in the water. The hull is in excellent  condition but the topside has some rust around windows and fittings. I would like to sandblast and start fresh. Or should i paint over existing paint? If I started from bare steel what would be the ideal paint schedule? Here is a link to photos of her current condition showing the good and the bad Nomadic                              Nomadic   64 new photos · Album by Jason Wilson              View on goo.gl          Preview by Yahoo            If anyone knows more about this boats past please let me know. Thanks.|
33889|33888|2016-12-13 19:05:11|brentswain38|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|I wouldn't advise removing any paint which is giving you no problems. You could end up with a paint job which gives you plenty of problems. Simply sand blast to white metal, any rust spots, and give them a coat of zinc primer above the waterline, and no primer below the waterline. Let the primer harden well, then build up at least  5 coats of epoxy, each within 48 hours of the last coat, then your final colour coat .For protection, the more coats the better. If this leaves things a little rough around the edges , let it harden well, then sand it flush with sandpaper on a block of wood. Then give it another colour coat. The most common screw up on steel boats is paint too thin, with too few coats. If you can still see the weld pattern thru the paint, it is definitely too thin.Congratulations! Good boat!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <wanderingwilson@...> wrote :Hello,Last year I bought Nomadic a BS 31. It is in Guaymas Mexico where it has been sitting for years. I want to repaint the entire boat while it is there. The hull was painted years ago i was told then never went back in the water. The hull is in excellent  condition but the topside has some rust around windows and fittings. I would like to sandblast and start fresh. Or should i paint over existing paint? If I started from bare steel what would be the ideal paint schedule? Here is a link to photos of her current condition showing the good and the bad Nomadic        Nomadic 64 new photos · Album by Jason Wilson    View on goo.gl     Preview by Yahoo If anyone knows more about this boats past please let me know. Thanks.|
33891|33888|2016-12-14 19:07:50|jason wilson|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|So don't start over on good looking paint. If I want to change the hull color how do I prep that surface for new paint. The only rust is around deck fittings, windows, hatch. Just blast those spots and prime it?What brand do you recommend?Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 3:05 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                I wouldn't advise removing any paint which is giving you no problems. You could end up with a paint job which gives you plenty of problems. Simply sand blast to white metal, any rust spots, and give them a coat of zinc primer above the waterline, and no primer below the waterline. Let the primer harden well, then build up at least  5 coats of epoxy, each within 48 hours of the last coat, then your final colour coat .For protection, the more coats the better. If this leaves things a little rough around the edges , let it harden well, then sand it flush with sandpaper on a block of wood. Then give it another colour coat. The most common screw up on steel boats is paint too thin, with too few coats. If you can still see the weld pattern thru the paint, it is definitely too thin.Congratulations! Good boat!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <wanderingwilson@...> wrote :Hello,Last year I bought Nomadic a BS 31. It is in Guaymas Mexico where it has been sitting for years. I want to repaint the entire boat while it is there. The hull was painted years ago i was told then never went back in the water. The hull is in excellent  condition but the topside has some rust around windows and fittings. I would like to sandblast and start fresh. Or should i paint over existing paint? If I started from bare steel what would be the ideal paint schedule? Here is a link to photos of her current condition showing the good and the bad Nomadic        Nomadic 64 new photos · Album by Jason Wilson    View on goo.gl     Preview by Yahoo If anyone knows more about this boats past please let me know. Thanks.                       |
33892|33888|2016-12-14 19:16:21|brentswain38|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <wanderingwilson@...> wrote : You would want to sand any shine and oxidized surface off any existing paint for a good bond. You would want to get a good buildup over the primer on any sandblasted areas. Oil based enamel ( Tremeclad) is easier to use and repair, but not as tough as urethane. Epoxy should be avoided for a top coat, as it oxidizes  badly in UV.Wasser tar is good for your buildup, on blasted areas. Most topcoat brands  are good.So don't start over on good looking paint. If I want to change the hull color how do I prep that surface for new paint. The only rust is around deck fittings, windows, hatch. Just blast those spots and prime it?What brand do you recommend?Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android  On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 3:05 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  I wouldn't advise removing any paint which is giving you no problems. You could end up with a paint job which gives you plenty of problems. Simply sand blast to white metal, any rust spots, and give them a coat of zinc primer above the waterline, and no primer below the waterline. Let the primer harden well, then build up at least  5 coats of epoxy, each within 48 hours of the last coat, then your final colour coat .For protection, the more coats the better. If this leaves things a little rough around the edges , let it harden well, then sand it flush with sandpaper on a block of wood. Then give it another colour coat. The most common screw up on steel boats is paint too thin, with too few coats. If you can still see the weld pattern thru the paint, it is definitely too thin.Congratulations! Good boat!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <wanderingwilson@...> wrote :Hello,Last year I bought Nomadic a BS 31. It is in Guaymas Mexico where it has been sitting for years. I want to repaint the entire boat while it is there. The hull was painted years ago i was told then never went back in the water. The hull is in excellent  condition but the topside has some rust around windows and fittings. I would like to sandblast and start fresh. Or should i paint over existing paint? If I started from bare steel what would be the ideal paint schedule? Here is a link to photos of her current condition showing the good and the bad Nomadic        Nomadic 64 new photos · Album by Jason Wilson    View on goo.gl     Preview by Yahoo If anyone knows more about this boats past please let me know. Thanks.|
33893|33888|2016-12-14 19:18:39|brentswain38|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|I pulled together the hull and decks for Nomadic in 1990.She was later sold to an Alaskan, who sailed her to Mexico.|
33894|33818|2016-12-15 19:18:15|brentswain38|Re: Where did everyone go?|A landlord is a pocket on land, where you permanently throw in more money than you have. A mortgage is a banker's pocket where you permanently throw in more money than you have.Ditto a house. When friends, who lived aboard many years , working a month or less a year , bought a house, they ended up working 11 months or more a year, long after the house was paid for. I never bought  a house,so never had to do that.You don't own a house,it owns you.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <riehlj2002@...> wrote :“There is a British saying: A yacht is a hole in seawater where You permanently throw in more money than You have.”  BOAT is actually an acronym for Break Out Another Thousand.   |
33895|33895|2016-12-15 19:18:54|wanderingwilson|What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Can anyone tell me what is oozing from the rudder and from a small hole in the keel seen in these photos?https://goo.gl/photos/T4d1QHMPSe71NCxU7 https://goo.gl/photos/Zptp4ogvaxjMf68w6 https://goo.gl/photos/j33DjZ6jyvapiaFfA  I'm guessing it's diesel coming out of the keel. It looks like a broken off screw inside that hole, maybe? What is in the rudder?|
33896|33895|2016-12-15 20:21:04|opuspaul|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Hi Jason,   Congratulations on your purchase.  I saw Nomadic a few years ago when I was visiting friends in San Carlos.   I never crawled on board but from what I remember she looked pretty good.   My friends are cruisers who are currently sailing but have a house there they are renting out.   I am not sure, but they have been there quite a few years now and might know some more history on the boat.  They  know the area well and might be a helpful contact for you.   Send me an email if you like and I will forward their contact details to you.   The forward lower half of keel should be full of lead.   It should have been sealed.   If water gets in between the lead and steel you can get electrolysis.  I would drill a hole out lower down and check for water and make sure it is dried out.   This shouldn't be too much of a problem in Mexico :).  You can then seal it either by welding or drill and tap a plug.   Fill it again higher from the top with either resin or oil and you should never have a problem.Is the other picture the rudder or the skeg?   The skeg is normally filled with anti freeze for keel cooling the engine.   The rudder is normally hollow to keep it light.  If it is the rudder, drill a hole lower or take it off and make sure it is drained well.  Reweld any holes and you should be good to go....you can slosh some paint inside it but if it is really sealed, it should not be rusting out inside.I agree with Brent about sandblasting the whole hull.  I wouldn't do it unless there was a real fault with the original paint.   Just paint the bad areas.   Do you have a  good source of water?  They aren't that expensive and I have found a high pressure water blaster really helpful for initial scale removal and clean up.  Make sure you remove any wood to get at the rust.  If you don't, the bad spots will just creep out again.There are a lot of good paints out now.   My personal preference is PPG/Amerlock 400.  It is very good paint and goes on really nice with a brush or roller.   Rust bloom won't hurt it.   If you can't clean the steel properly or are in doubt, use something like Amerlock Sealer or Carboline Rust Bond first.  It is very thin (almost like water) and will penetrate and bond to any pits or surface rust.   Don't wait too long between coats.  It should be hours, not days.You never know, you might be able to get a good local brand of paint.  If it is a high build industrial epoxy designed for splash zones, it should be OK.Cheers and good luck.  Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <wanderingwilson@...> wrote :Can anyone tell me what is oozing from the rudder and from a small hole in the keel seen in these photos?https://goo.gl/photos/T4d1QHMPSe71NCxU7 https://goo.gl/photos/Zptp4ogvaxjMf68w6 https://goo.gl/photos/j33DjZ6jyvapiaFfA  I'm guessing it's diesel coming out of the keel. It looks like a broken off screw inside that hole, maybe? What is in the rudder?|
33897|33818|2016-12-16 07:48:02|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Where did everyone go?|Owning a house (inherited, but in a state of a tiny bit neglect when its late owner died at ninetynine in 2011) these days I second this from firsthand experience, despite the fact that I repurposed every piece I needed for repairs and didn't buy a single hour of third party craftsmanship yet: From wastebin to sewage, from "controlling" gaslines (which were found "due to renewal/exchange entirely" while I didn't recieve any technical or even lawful proof why, to date - those are still in good use) to housing tax, from waterbills to my cut of communal street-lights -of which I have absolutely none, sitting at the far end of a private cul-de-sac owned by my neighbour, and so on.You can be absolutely sure: As an official house owner, somebody will trace You down earlier than later and hand out an astonishingly high bill for the most irrational nonsense You didn't ever ask for in the first place, not to mention the grime-and-dust people wetting their teeth when a (private, in-house-use only) workshop with a tablesaw, a planer, bandsaws and chainsaws and grinders and welders and other potentially deadly pollutors should be used occasionally.Reducing my gas bills with solar water heating should even cost some thousands of a not-so-easy to translate "looks-of-our-town" - fee. (south side of my house can't be seen from anywhere on communal ground no matter which place in town You go. They saw it on google earth, when looking for invoice possibilities, my inside source told me).I told 'em they may take my solar collectors down if they feel the need to, but only with the help of an officially proved scaffolding on their charge, for I will not risk letting anyone on my roof, minding that I will definitely not insure any of their personell on my ground or even roof whatsoever. There went four years, scaffolding still to come.It's not so that I didn't face any "fool's taxation" when underway, but usually You're able to change mooring or anchoring roadstead before things get nasty in terms of SWAT -style law enforcement - at least in the Med and even Africa and the Middle East where I've been so far by sailboat (only exception Israel). - as a house owner, the fu**ing fu**ers fu** You anytime they feel like, and in terms of showing 'em the door You have "limited ways" to say the least.By the way fu**ing fu**ers: - anybody else recieving seasoned origami contributions in weird numbers from yahoo ...??Cheers G_BAm 16.12.2016 um 01:18 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:                          A landlord is a pocket on land, where you permanently throw in more money than you have. A mortgage is a banker's pocket where you permanently throw in more money than you have.Ditto a house. When friends, who lived aboard many years , working a month or less a year , bought a house, they ended up working 11 months or more a year, long after the house was paid for. I never bought  a house,so never had to do that.You don't own a house,it owns you.|
33898|33895|2016-12-16 17:40:34|brentswain38|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|I would work the area over with  a hammer and centrepunch to see how thick the steel is there. Then I would cut a bit back from the hole,) until I found normal thickness (1/4 inch) dry it out an weld a flush  patch on..I would fill the inside with water soluable oil, thru a hole in the ballast cap. Then weld the hole shut. Ditto the other keel.Ditto the  rudder trailing edge.|
33899|33888|2016-12-17 06:16:06|haidan|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|If youve got a blaster available and theyll let you do it with any hassel then you can have quite a bit of control with a sand blaster, take down the rusty spots and keep well back from the good paint, move fast and it cleans up old paint pretty well without taking it right off. Its a much nicer way to do a whole boat then sanding and way way faster But I wouldnt bother if its going to be a struggle to even start thinking about blasting there. Sort of out In the middle of nowhere isnt your boat? |
33900|33895|2016-12-17 11:51:35|Darren Bos|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|                   This is interesting, I'm still trying to decide what oil to use to     fill the voids around my boats ballast (lead in aluminum keel).      Isn't water soluble cutting oil mostly water with oil emulsified in     it?  It has corrosion inhibitors, but isn't this still potentially     asking for trouble if you have water in a skeg or keel?          Darren          On 16-12-16 02:40 PM,       brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                           I would work the area over with  a hammer and centrepunch               to see how thick the steel is there. Then I would cut a               bit back from the hole,) until I found normal thickness               (1/4 inch) dry it out an weld a flush  patch on..               I would fill the inside with water soluable oil, thru a               hole in the ballast cap. Then weld the hole shut. Ditto               the other keel.               Ditto the  rudder trailing edge.                                                                      Posted by:             brentswain38@...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          |
33901|33895|2016-12-17 15:29:25|opuspaul|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|They use straight SAE140 mineral oil in the gearbox of Seagull outboards.  The gearboxes leak like a sieve and the oil mixes with the water that gets in and gets whipped until it looks like a thin honey colored milkshake.  Any blended gear oil won't mix properly with the oil and won't work.   Long term, the aluminum inside the gearbox will corrode and sometimes gets heavily pitted if they aren't periodically drained.   Having said that, it takes awhile.   Some of these outboards were built in the 1930s and still going.  There is an active racing community here in NZ.  I did the Waikato River race last year.   There is a race that goes around Bermuda every year which I have on my bucket list.....http://birdsofafeather.nz/2016/01/29/official-trailer-online/http://seagulloutboard.com/?page_id=11 I digress.....Some people think you should use water soluble oil because it would be better for the environment if it ever leaked out.   I don't see this as a problem but if it was you should probably use some kind of vegetable oil.  Either way, the oil eventually gets eaten by bacteria.  Why would it really leak out if you do it right?   I think I would rather fill the keel with resin than oil, especially if you are using any kind of lead blocks or ingots that could move around.   You could use resin and then top it off with a bit of oil at the end just in case you missed something.  I have seen a few French alluminum boats and the ballast was sealed in with epoxy.I know of a guy here who is planning to use a thin slurry of concrete to pour around his lead ingots in a boat he is building through a small hole in the top.   This is a big mistake.   His problem is that he had loosely placed ingots in his poorly made keel with poor access to it.  The slurry will never get down into the small voids, leave gaps and cause all kinds of problems in 15 or 20 years.   Several people have told him not to do it but he is going to do it anyway.  I can't even watch anymore....it is far too frustrating.   If I was him, I would use a hose on a fitting and keep pouring resin into it until it came out another hole at the other end of the keel.  Keep a head on it until all the air comes out and the resin is set.   It might take a few gallons of resin but it is worth it.   If he was absolutely sure that the lead is locked in place and had no movement, oil would be fine.  What a botch up....Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : This is interesting, I'm still trying to decide what oil to use to fill the voids around my boats ballast (lead in aluminum keel).  Isn't water soluble cutting oil mostly water with oil emulsified in it?  It has corrosion inhibitors, but isn't this still potentially asking for trouble if you have water in a skeg or keel?  Darren |
33902|33888|2016-12-17 18:39:05|aguysailing|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|(no primer below the waterline. Let the primer harden well, then build  up at least  5 coats of epoxy, each within 48 hours of the last coat,  then your final colour coat)Is there another kind of paint other than epoxy that would be effective and not require that amount of time on the hard.|
33903|33888|2016-12-17 20:08:22|Paul Thompson|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|Don't start all over again if the finish is still good. You are just wasting money and time. In general the thicker the coating the better the protection. Just sandblast the rusty bits (you probably will need to remove the windows...) and epoxy coat you'll want to build it up to at least five coats. Any good industrial epoxy will work. For the rest sand with 100 wet n dry then add another 2 coats of epoxy over it all. Overcoat with polyurethane. One part is easy to keep up by requires more keeping up. Two lasts much better but is a pain when you just need to fix small damage.Lastly I personally use International Interprotect epoxy which is not crazy expensive and is widely available. It has given me good service over the years. On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 12:06 PM, wanderingwilson@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                               Hello,Last year I bought Nomadic a BS 31. It is in Guaymas Mexico where it has been sitting for years. I want to repaint the entire boat while it is there. The hull was painted years ago i was told then never went back in the water. The hull is in excellent  condition but the topside has some rust around windows and fittings. I would like to sandblast and start fresh. Or should i paint over existing paint? If I started from bare steel what would be the ideal paint schedule? Here is a link to photos of her current condition showing the good and the bad Nomadic                              Nomadic   64 new photos · Album by Jason Wilson              View on goo.gl          Preview by Yahoo            If anyone knows more about this boats past please let me know. Thanks.                  -- Regards,Paul Thompson  |
33904|33895|2016-12-17 20:11:48|Paul Thompson|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|You need to grind away the finish and have a look, if it goes through the metal, cut out a small section and have a look... you'll soon know what needs to be done. On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 4:46 PM, wanderingwilson@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Can anyone tell me what is oozing from the rudder and from a small hole in the keel seen in these photos?https://goo.gl/photos/ T4d1QHMPSe71NCxU7 https://goo.gl/photos/ Zptp4ogvaxjMf68w6 https://goo.gl/photos/ j33DjZ6jyvapiaFfA  I'm guessing it's diesel coming out of the keel. It looks like a broken off screw inside that hole, maybe? What is in the rudder?  ------------------------------ ------ Posted by: wanderingwilson@... ------------------------------ ------  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups.com ------------------------------ ------  Yahoo Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ origamiboats/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ origamiboats/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     origamiboats-digest@ yahoogroups.com     origamiboats-fullfeatured@ yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     origamiboats-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/ us/yahoo/utos/terms/  -- Regards,Paul Thompson  |
33905|33895|2016-12-18 13:35:18|Darren Bos|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|                   I'm also a Seagull owner/fan, and think the around Bermuda race       would be great to partake in.  I think the emulsification of the       oil in the seagull case relies on the mixing action of the gears.        Something like cutting oil that has emulsifiers to trap water,       seemed like it would be useful (otherwise you could end up with       water in the bottom of your keel with oil on top), but given that       water soluble cutting oils seem to be mostly water with oil mixed       in, it seems like they could cause trouble if the anti-corrosion       agents get exhausted.          I designed my keel with a header tank above waterline to fill       with oil.  Should the keel ever develop a problem it will slowly       leak oil.  Thus, you keep water out and you become aware that       there is a problem before it becomes so bad that you can't fix       it.  This may be an unnecessary complication, but I fully rebuilt       the keel after an extreme example of corrosion (steel punchings,       encased in cement, in an aluminum keel, supposedly sealed with       resin on the top!) and never want to go through a similar       exercise.     I considered encapsulating the lead in epoxy, but wasn't happy       with the density I could achieve by stacking ingots in the keel.        Instead, I stacked ingots a layer at a time, widely spaced and       then poured lead to fill all the voids.  This worked well, but you       will never get epoxy to flow around all the small voids, so this       decision means I have to use oil.  However, it also means the       ballast is a near perfect fit and is keyed into all the frames so       it is not going to move.  Silicone oil seems like a good choice to       fill the keel.  It is biologically inert and bacteria can't eat it       in the keel and create acid for corrosion, but it is expensive.        Right now I'm leaning to biodegradable hydraulic oil, but since I       still have a year of boat building on the hard I continue to look       for something better.  I don't think I want to use straight       vegetable oil, when it breaks down the acids you get could       potentially lead to corrosion.          Darren               On 16-12-17 12:29 PM, opusnz@...       [origamiboats] wrote:                                            They use straight SAE140 mineral oil in the gearbox of               Seagull outboards.  The gearboxes leak like a sieve and               the oil mixes with the water that gets in and gets whipped               until it looks like a thin honey colored milkshake.  Any               blended gear oil won't mix properly with the oil and won't               work.   Long term, the aluminum inside the gearbox will               corrode and sometimes gets heavily pitted if they aren't               periodically drained.   Having said that, it takes awhile.                 Some of these outboards were built in the 1930s and               still going.  There is an active racing community here in               NZ.  I did the Waikato River race last year.   There is a               race that goes around Bermuda every year which I have on               my bucket list.....                              http://birdsofafeather.nz/2016/01/29/official-trailer-online/                              http://seagulloutboard.com/?page_id=11                                        I digress.....                          Some people think you should use water soluble oil because             it would be better for the environment if it ever leaked             out.   I don't see this as a problem but if it was you             should probably use some kind of vegetable oil.  Either way,             the oil eventually gets eaten by bacteria.  Why would it             really leak out if you do it right?                             I think I would rather fill the keel with resin than oil,             especially if you are using any kind of lead blocks or             ingots that could move around.   You could use resin and             then top it off with a bit of oil at the end just in case             you missed something.  I have seen a few French alluminum             boats and the ballast was sealed in with epoxy.                          I know of a guy here who is planning to use a thin slurry of             concrete to pour around his lead ingots in a boat he is             building through a small hole in the top.   This is a big             mistake.   His problem is that he had loosely placed ingots             in his poorly made keel with poor access to it.  The slurry             will never get down into the small voids, leave gaps and             cause all kinds of problems in 15 or 20 years.   Several             people have told him not to do it but he is going to do it             anyway.  I can't even watch anymore....it is far too             frustrating.   If I was him, I would use a hose on a fitting             and keep pouring resin into it until it came out another             hole at the other end of the keel.  Keep a head on it until             all the air comes out and the resin is set.   It might take             a few gallons of resin but it is worth it.   If he was             absolutely sure that the lead is locked in place and had no             movement, oil would be fine.  What a botch up....                          Cheers, Paul                                           ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...>               wrote :                                               This is interesting, I'm still trying to decide what oil                 to use to                 fill the voids around my boats ballast (lead in aluminum                 keel).                  Isn't water soluble cutting oil mostly water with oil                 emulsified in                 it?  It has corrosion inhibitors, but isn't this still                 potentially                 asking for trouble if you have water in a skeg or keel?                                  Darren                                                                                                                 |
33906|33895|2016-12-18 16:50:33|brentswain38|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Water soluable oil is straight oil ,and clear, until you add water. Then it goes milky. It will nullify the corrosive effect of any water in the keel , as long as more doesn't keep leaking in. It has worked  well for water in built in keel coolers, far better than antifreeze.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <bosdg@...> wrote : This is interesting, I'm still trying to decide what oil to use to fill the voids around my boats ballast (lead in aluminum keel).  Isn't water soluble cutting oil mostly water with oil emulsified in it?  It has corrosion inhibitors, but isn't this still potentially asking for trouble if you have water in a skeg or keel?  Darren |
33907|33888|2016-12-18 16:53:13|brentswain38|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|Mexican boatyard rules via a sandblasting, are usually far easier, and more relaxed  than  here.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <haidan@...> wrote :If youve got a blaster available and theyll let you do it with any hassel then you can have quite a bit of control with a sand blaster, take down the rusty spots and keep well back from the good paint, move fast and it cleans up old paint pretty well without taking it right off. Its a much nicer way to do a whole boat then sanding and way way faster But I wouldnt bother if its going to be a struggle to even start thinking about blasting there. Sort of out In the middle of nowhere isnt your boat? |
33908|33888|2016-12-19 18:26:05|wanderingwilson|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|Brent, who was Robert B Nickel, Inc? The little paperwork I have on the boat  shows him as the builder?  So from what I have gathered here, my hull paint is good enough to paint on top of. Sand that surface down some and apply a couple more coats of epoxy. Then a final coat of urethane. I want to change the color from white to a new color, is the color in the epoxy or urethane coats? My deck rust repairs I should sandblast, then zinc primer or sealer, then buildup with epoxy. Is it ok to do all this with brush and roller?|
33909|33895|2016-12-19 18:29:13|wanderingwilson|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Thanks Paul, It would be great if I could contact your friends down there. I won't be in Mexico to work on until next winter most likely.  Nomadic is not keel cooled like some others so I don't know what is in the skeg. The ooze from the keel felt greedy like diesel and the hole it's coming from is not a rust holes it seems like a perfect countersunk hole for a screw head.  Thanks for your paint suggestions it's very helpful.|
33910|33888|2016-12-19 19:46:22|brentswain38|Re: Nomadic. Ideal paint schedule in a perfect world?|Robert Nickle owns sheet metal shop in Placerville California where we pulled his boat together. We let a big guy weld the decks which he warped by overwelding, so expect to find some filler there The hull has little or no filler.The colour is in the urethne . Any colour for your epoxy will do.Yes, sand blast and epoxy.  Brush or roller is fine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <wanderingwilson@...> wrote :Brent, who was Robert B Nickel, Inc? The little paperwork I have on the boat  shows him as the builder?  So from what I have gathered here, my hull paint is good enough to paint on top of. Sand that surface down some and apply a couple more coats of epoxy. Then a final coat of urethane. I want to change the color from white to a new color, is the color in the epoxy or urethane coats? My deck rust repairs I should sandblast, then zinc primer or sealer, then buildup with epoxy. Is it ok to do all this with brush and roller?|
33911|33895|2016-12-20 08:19:18|haidan|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Sounds like someone put a drain plug in the keel tank or maybe a filler hole to oil the keel. The plug got eaten up I imagine, maye an eazy out and a pipe tap to clean out the threads is all you need. Fill the keel back up with oil if thats what it is and put a new plug in|
33912|33895|2016-12-20 08:51:40|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Is there still some kind of bolt/treaded plug to see at the bottom end of the countersink?Probably a stainless screw was there once but got painted over and the head corroded away for not being in contact with enough oxygen to build up its protecting layer. A nut could be welded ontop the remaining bolt in case there is enough space to weld it without welding the bolt to the hull.If not, making enough space for he welding-on-nut-method is sometimes easier than messing around with other methods to extract a corroded-in bolt.The expansion of the bolt with welding heat often breaks loose a good part of the corrosion in the deeper thread.Good luck G_BAm 18.12.2016 um 08:00 schrieb wanderingwilson@... [origamiboats]: the hole it's coming from is not a rust holes it seems like a perfect countersunk hole for a screw head.|
33913|33895|2016-12-20 17:31:59|brentswain38|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|I'd weld the hole shut. That is the last place you need a potential leak.Cleaning should be done from inside. No lack of such access here---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <giuseppe.bergman@...> wrote :Is there still some kind of bolt/treaded plug to see at the bottom end of the countersink?Probably a stainless screw was there once but got painted over and the head corroded away for not being in contact with enough oxygen to build up its protecting layer. A nut could be welded ontop the remaining bolt in case there is enough space to weld it without welding the bolt to the hull.If not, making enough space for he welding-on-nut-method is sometimes easier than messing around with other methods to extract a corroded-in bolt.The expansion of the bolt with welding heat often breaks loose a good part of the corrosion in the deeper thread.Good luck G_BAm 18.12.2016 um 08:00 schrieb wanderingwilson@... [origamiboats]: the hole it's coming from is not a rust holes it seems like a perfect countersunk hole for a screw head.|
33914|33895|2016-12-21 06:01:08|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|Seems to be the easiest way to get rid of the issue. While only so if there is no need to drain/access that very part of the hull through a bolthole.Would be best to have no dispensable holes in the hull anyway.Am 20.12.2016 um 23:31 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]: I'd weld the hole shut.|
33915|33895|2016-12-21 09:48:29|Matt Malone|Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1267313796 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Assuming this is an oil-filled keel and rudder, before welding it shut, I would consider a flush to remove all trace of water from the inside.   Isopropyl alcohol is good, it dilutes the water in a series of flushes, but WD-40 -- water displacement formula  40 -- is excellent and comes in gallon cans.   If you have to drill out a little hole near the bottom to let the crap drain out into a basin, it is worth the time to weld the hole over later.   After the WD-40, rinse with clean motor oil or something, and  let that drain out too.   Waiting between the flush and weld and getting rid of the residue of WD-40 is very important. WD-40 has a lot of volatiles that are very combustible and it serves no purpose once the water has been forced off the surface and replaced  with oil.        Matt     <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 21, 2016 6:01 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: What is oozing out of my keel and rudder?         Seems to be the easiest way to get rid of the issue.  While only so if there is no need to drain/access that very part of the hull through a bolthole.   Would be best to have no dispensable holes in the hull anyway.       Am 20.12.2016 um 23:31 schrieb brentswain38@... [origamiboats]:   I'd  weld the hole shut.              |
33916|33916|2016-12-21 17:28:46|brentswain38|Laser rust removal|http://youtu.be/A7Go...3pLaHONfSYCX0RHCheck this out. Could make sandblasting obsolete. I wonder what the equipment costs,and where available. Less than hiring someone to sandblast?|
33917|33916|2016-12-21 19:47:40|Aaron|Re: Laser rust removal|It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coatingSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 4:28 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       http://youtu.be/A7Go...3pLaHONfSYCX0RHCheck this out. Could make sandblasting obsolete. I wonder what the equipment costs,and where available. Less than hiring someone to sandblast?                             |
33918|33916|2016-12-21 20:06:47|opuspaul|Re: Laser rust removal|Very interesting technology but I was thinking the same thing.....---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coatingSent from Yahoo Mail on Android  On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 4:28 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  http://youtu.be/A7Go...3pLaHONfSYCX0RHCheck this out. Could make sandblasting obsolete. I wonder what the equipment costs,and where available. Less than hiring someone to sandblast? |
33919|33916|2016-12-22 11:03:51|mountain man|Re: Laser rust removal|       Might be good for inside the boat though   On 2016-12-21, at 20:06, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:       Very interesting technology but I was thinking the same thing.....    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :  It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android    On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 4:28 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:         http://youtu.be/A7Go...3pLaHONfSYCX0RH   Check this out. Could make sandblasting obsolete. I wonder what the equipment costs,and where available. Less than hiring someone to sandblast?                    |
33920|33916|2016-12-22 14:00:08|aguysailing|Re: Laser rust removal|P-Laser Industrial Laser Cleaning : degreasing, mould cleaning, anilox roller cleaning, selective paint stripping, removing oxide layers, car restauration                             P-Laser Industrial Laser Cleaning : degreasing, mou...               View on www.p-laser.com          Preview by Yahoo              |
33921|33916|2016-12-22 14:07:02|garyhlucas|Re: Laser rust removal|     When you see the price you will fall down!  Like $60K to $100K!    Gary H.  Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog?  http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/      <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 2:00 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Laser rust removal       P-Laser  Industrial Laser Cleaning : degreasing, mould cleaning, anilox roller cleaning,  selective paint stripping, removing oxide layers, car restauration                                                                                      P-Laser        Industrial Laser Cleaning : degreasing, mou...                     View on        www.p-laser.com             Preview by        Yahoo                  |
33922|33916|2016-12-23 01:27:03|aguysailing|Re: Laser rust removal|Here is what they say about that:Gary hello,   Right ! this is one side of the promo. We have a  lot of research on this and we can tell you that we obtain the same  edhesion strenght with only cleaning with the laser. This is because the  laser takes away all oxides and organic contaminationtill  the metal grid,atoms. So you get an extreem low surface energy state  with high adhesion result. But the most specs will ask for a SA  roughness profile and yes it will be better if it is done right. Mostely  in practise depending on the air conditions the surface  is already degrading while blasting before painting. So the final reslt  is new oxidation, dust partikels and maybe some organics. We advise to do the blasting and use the laser for  the last security finish. When you pass with the laser you obtain a less  rust sensitive surface and complete to the best level.|
33923|33916|2016-12-23 03:49:20|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Laser rust removal|This laser abrading method is generally promoted for industrial grade surface coating preparation as a built-in part of production lines in Germany, the handheld transportable device seems to be just a sidekick or some kind of relatively fresh "why not try this, too?" idea so far, at least in combination with greater surface ranges like found on ships and boats or bridges etc.Selfcontaining a single piece of equipment in the pricerange of Your sailable cruiser would be quite a hobby, though.But the price wouldn't bother me in the first place, because it would certainly be possible to rent a pro for a day or two to use his equipment on Your surface-to-be-coated, likewise with sandblasting - minus the problem of heaps of highly contaminated sand residues, and, more important, minus the problem of blasting the messy dust all over the place. (most commercial places/marinas working boats i know require a tent with underpressure to catch the dust when sandblasting on their property, what would count as a part of the competitive price compared to laser abrading - unless You'd do it in Your own backyard no matter what Your neighbours might say, for blasting the outside is shortly before takeoff-for-good anyway ...)Surface-condition in terms of adhesion would be the bigger issue than the price of some rented hours of equipment.So, inside laser preparation without the mess of sandblasting while wearing a space suit could still be a goody.Thanks for bringing this up.G_BAm 22.12.2016 um 20:06 schrieb gary.lucas@... [origamiboats]:                              When you see the price you will fall down!  Like $60K to $100K!    Gary H.  Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog?  http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/      <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 2:00 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Laser rust removal      P-Laser  Industrial Laser Cleaning : degreasing, mould cleaning, anilox roller cleaning,  selective paint stripping, removing oxide layers, car restauration                                                                                      P-Laser        Industrial Laser Cleaning : degreasing, mou...                     View on        www.p-laser.com             Preview by        Yahoo                                           |
33924|33916|2016-12-23 17:49:15|brentswain38|Re: Laser rust removal|Probably at least as good a profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over three decades---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating  |
33925|33916|2016-12-23 18:24:49|don bourgeois|Re: Laser rust removal|            <!--#ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171ACTIVITY 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 .ygrps-yiv-1870135171ATTACH 	{display:table;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 div.ygrps-yiv-1870135171photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171PHOTOS div 	{float:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171PHOTOS div div 	{overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171PHOTOS div label 	{overflow:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171YGRP-MLMSG 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171YGRP-MLMSG table 	{font-size:inherit;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171YGRP-MLMSG pre 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 code 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1870135171 #ygrps-yiv-1870135171ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important; 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I f you were in the process and p laser was available it wouldn't take too much to try. Post   The results after a series of dates and let us know how it turns out. A totally unbiased pinion will result.        This will eliminate the hype and provide all with usable results.        Don B.                         <b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;'>From:</span></font></b>  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ]  <b><span style='font-weight:bold;'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 23, 2016 4:49 PM <b><span style='font-weight:bold;'>To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b><span style='font-weight:bold;'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Laser rust removal                       Probably at least as good a profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over three decades       ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , <akenai@...> wrote :     It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating               |
33926|33916|2016-12-23 18:33:59|mountain man|Re: Laser rust removal|       It is out of price and probably not available for rent   On 2016-12-23, at 18:24, "'don bourgeois' donb1234@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:         Why not have a member of this group who is about to paint use a sample group and use chemical, ground and p laser finish with typical  coatings to test. I f you were in the process and p laser was available it wouldn't take too much to try. Post  The results after a series of dates and let us know how it turns out. A totally unbiased pinion will result.      This will eliminate the hype and provide all with usable results.      Don B.                 <b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ]  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 23, 2016 4:49 PM <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [origamiboats] Laser rust removal              Probably at least as good a profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over three decades     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , <akenai@...> wrote :   It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating                |
33927|33916|2016-12-23 19:28:43|opuspaul|Re: Laser rust removal|If steel sand or shot blasting works, why add another expensive process?   I see the value of the laser process as repairing an already rusted or previously blasted area where you are left with a reasonably good profile in the surface of the steel.  It looks fast, easy and environmentally friendly.   It may even be cheaper.   On a new build, with mill scale or smooth steel, I am skeptical it would leave any profile at all.  If they are saying that the laser does just as good a job as sand  blasting on brand new steel, and that the paint will stick just as well,  they should have independent test data.   I hope I am wrong.   There are always wild claims by any new product and since it is just out,  I remain skeptical despite the impressive videos.   If they start using it in ship yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really works (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will probably take a few years.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Probably at least as good a profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over three decades---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating  |
33928|33916|2016-12-24 04:26:25|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Laser rust removal|I did some random tapping around the bush in my area (prosperous metropolitain area, in general the BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche region) and didn't find someone who had experience with this carry-around device yet, let alone would own one, while there were quite a few people who did know what I was talking about at least,  but not even some pretty far-side BMW technicians we built edgy carbon prototypes with a couple years ago could tell me where I'd find such a carryable p-laser in actual use to get real information from the people out in the field firsthand - apart from keen sales persons, that is.So it seems to be still a pretty exotic thing, but if this really should work, it will not be long to spread down to the more advanced automotive repair sweatshops,, commercial trailer and machine renters, industrial grade paint shops, steel constructing yards and, of course, mid range shipyards (didn't chase down those up north yet for this crazy time of the year ...), in short, to all those who do messy individual blasting of some kind these days.Seems worth to keep in mind anyway.Wouldn't be astonished at all if some brilliant kid would write some kind of manipulative code to steer the surface created by lasering towards sought after properties ... just look at what happens with 3 axis cnc technology since the scrounging  homebrew fraction started using  cannibalisied printers, scanners and other stepmotor-driven devices to combine those scraps with their raspberries from fifth grade christmas packages for the little tech maniac.Cheers G_BAm 24.12.2016 um 01:28 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]:  If they start using it in ship yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really works (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will probably take a few years.|
33929|33916|2016-12-24 12:55:03|Stephen Wandling|Re: Laser rust removal|I searched for "portable laser rust removal" and found lots of sites. Here is one:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.machinedesign.com/metals/simple-handheld-laser-demonstrates-complete-rust-removal&ved=0ahUKEwi-6tXHso3RAhVU02MKHXu0C-4QFgglMAA&usg=AFQjCNF6MMnDVzDaT1DX_FrwCjuFCAbJWA&sig2=LD8EtcZLvxfO94VA0wJf8ASo for only $50,000 you can have the 12 watt, low power unit! On Dec 24, 2016 1:26 AM, "Giuseppe Bergman giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   <u></u>                                                I did some random tapping around the bush in my area (prosperous metropolitain area, in general the BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche region) and didn't find someone who had experience with this carry-around device yet, let alone would own one, while there were quite a few people who did know what I was talking about at least,  but not even some pretty far-side BMW technicians we built edgy carbon prototypes with a couple years ago could tell me where I'd find such a carryable p-laser in actual use to get real information from the people out in the field firsthand - apart from keen sales persons, that is.So it seems to be still a pretty exotic thing, but if this really should work, it will not be long to spread down to the more advanced automotive repair sweatshops,, commercial trailer and machine renters, industrial grade paint shops, steel constructing yards and, of course, mid range shipyards (didn't chase down those up north yet for this crazy time of the year ...), in short, to all those who do messy individual blasting of some kind these days.Seems worth to keep in mind anyway.Wouldn't be astonished at all if some brilliant kid would write some kind of manipulative code to steer the surface created by lasering towards sought after properties ... just look at what happens with 3 axis cnc technology since the scrounging  homebrew fraction started using  cannibalisied printers, scanners and other stepmotor-driven devices to combine those scraps with their raspberries from fifth grade christmas packages for the little tech maniac.Cheers G_BAm 24.12.2016 um 01:28 schrieb opusnz@... [origamiboats]: If they start using it in ship yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really works (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will probably take a few years.                                        |
33930|33916|2016-12-24 12:56:42|mountain man|Re: Laser rust removal|       Worth more than the boat to paint!!... Lol   On 2016-12-24, at 12:55, "Stephen Wandling swandling@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:        I searched for "portable laser rust removal" and found lots of sites. Here is one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.machinedesign.com/metals/simple-handheld-laser-demonstrates-complete-rust-removal&ved=0ahUKEwi-6tXHso3RAhVU02MKHXu0C-4QFgglMAA&usg=AFQjCNF6MMnDVzDaT1DX_FrwCjuFCAbJWA&sig2=LD8EtcZLvxfO94VA0wJf8A    So for only $50,000 you can have the 12 watt, low power unit!   On Dec 24, 2016 1:26 AM, "Giuseppe Bergman  giuseppe.bergman@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote: <u></u>      I did some random tapping around the bush in my area (prosperous metropolitain area, in general the BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche region) and didn't find someone who had experience with this carry-around device yet, let alone would own one, while there  were quite a few people who did know what I was talking about at least,  but not even some pretty far-side BMW technicians we built edgy carbon prototypes with a couple years ago could tell me where I'd find such a carryable p-laser in actual use to get real  information from the people out in the field firsthand - apart from keen sales persons, that is.   So it seems to be still a pretty exotic thing, but if this really should work, it will not be long to spread down to the more advanced automotive repair sweatshops,, commercial trailer and machine renters, industrial grade paint shops, steel constructing  yards and, of course, mid range shipyards (didn't chase down those up north yet for this crazy time of the year ...), in short, to all those who do messy individual blasting of some kind these days.   Seems worth to keep in mind anyway.   Wouldn't be astonished at all if some brilliant kid would write some kind of manipulative code to steer the surface created by lasering towards sought after properties ... just look at what happens with 3 axis cnc technology since the scrounging  homebrew fraction  started using  cannibalisied printers, scanners and other stepmotor-driven devices to combine those scraps with their raspberries from fifth grade christmas packages for the little tech maniac.   Cheers G_B              Am 24.12.2016 um 01:28 schrieb  opusnz@... [origamiboats]:   If  they start using it in ship yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really works (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will probably take a few years.                     |
33931|33916|2016-12-24 14:21:52|brentswain38|Re: Laser rust removal|It looks ideal for old steel,  especially inside a hull where sandblasting is not so easy, or where environmental regulations make it difficult.No, it wouldn't be so good on new steel.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :If steel sand or shot blasting works, why add another expensive process?   I see the value of the laser process as repairing an already rusted or previously blasted area where you are left with a reasonably good profile in the surface of the steel.  It looks fast, easy and environmentally friendly.   It may even be cheaper.   On a new build, with mill scale or smooth steel, I am skeptical it would leave any profile at all.  If they are saying that the laser does just as good a job as sand blasting on brand new steel, and that the paint will stick just as well, they should have independent test data.   I hope I am wrong.   There are always wild claims by any new product and since it is just out,  I remain skeptical despite the impressive videos.   If they start using it in ship yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really works (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will probably take a few years.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :Probably at least as good a profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over three decades---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating  |
33932|33916|2016-12-24 15:01:47|mountain man|Re: Laser rust removal|       Yes , looks ideal for inside the boat. It would make the job far easier. Lets hope it is or will be available for rent.   On 2016-12-24, at 14:21, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:       It looks ideal for old steel,  especially inside a hull where sandblasting is not so easy, or where environmental regulations make it difficult. No, it wouldn't be so good on new steel.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <opusnz@...> wrote :  If steel sand or shot blasting works, why add another expensive process?     I see the value of the laser process as repairing an already rusted or previously blasted area where you are left with a reasonably good profile in the surface of the steel.  It looks fast, easy and environmentally friendly.   It may even be cheaper.   On a  new build, with mill scale or smooth steel, I am skeptical it would leave any profile at all.  If they are saying that the laser does just as good a job as sand blasting on brand new steel, and that the paint will stick just as well, they should have independent  test data.    I hope I am wrong.   There are always wild claims by any new product and since it is just out,  I remain skeptical despite the impressive videos.   If they start using it in ship yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really works  (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will probably take a few years.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :  Probably at least as good a profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over three decades   ---In  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :  It's great for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper coating                     |
33933|27278|2016-12-25 12:48:45|deniswig|happy christmas from ireland|<!-- #ygrps-yiv-36884772    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-36884772 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-36884772 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-36884772   #ygrps-yiv-36884772 p.ygrps-yiv-36884772MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-36884772 li.ygrps-yiv-36884772MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-36884772 div.ygrps-yiv-36884772MsoNormal 	{margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";} #ygrps-yiv-36884772 a:link, #ygrps-yiv-36884772 span.ygrps-yiv-36884772MsoHyperlink 	{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-36884772 a:visited, #ygrps-yiv-36884772 span.ygrps-yiv-36884772MsoHyperlinkFollowed 	{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-36884772 span.ygrps-yiv-36884772EmailStyle17 	{font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:windowtext;} #ygrps-yiv-36884772 .ygrps-yiv-36884772MsoChpDefault 	{}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-36884772 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #ygrps-yiv-36884772 div.ygrps-yiv-36884772WordSection1 	{} -->Happy Christmas to all in Vancouver  and the wider community . Denis Buggy|
33934|33916|2016-12-28 11:30:02|garyhlucas|Re: Laser rust removal|     They are available to rent, simply because they are so expensive the market  would be extremely limited.        <b>From:</b> mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 24, 2016 2:59 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Laser rust removal        Yes , looks ideal for inside the boat. It would make the job far  easier. Lets hope it is or will be available for rent. On 2016-12-24, at 14:21, "brentswain38@...  [origamiboats]" <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>  wrote:             It looks ideal for old steel,  especially inside a hull where    sandblasting is not so easy, or where environmental regulations make it    difficult.No, it wouldn't be so good on new steel.   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com,    <opusnz@...> wrote :   If steel sand or shot blasting works, why add    another expensive process?   I see the value of the laser    process as repairing an already rusted or previously blasted area where you    are left with a reasonably good profile in the surface of the steel.  It    looks fast, easy and environmentally friendly.   It may even be    cheaper.   On a new build, with mill scale or smooth steel, I am    skeptical it would leave any profile at all.  If they are saying that the    laser does just as good a job as sand blasting on brand new steel, and that    the paint will stick just as well, they should have independent test    data.  I hope I am wrong.   There are always wild    claims by any new product and since it is just out,  I remain skeptical    despite the impressive videos.   If they start using it in ship    yards or on offshore oil and gas rigs, that will be the sign that it really    works (at least for repairs) and help drive the price down.  It will    probably take a few years.   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com,    <brentswain38@...> wrote :   Probably at least as good a    profile as steel shot blasting ,which has given me  no problems in over    three decades   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote    :   It's great    for cleaning but does not leave an anchor profile for proper    coating                 |
33935|33935|2016-12-31 18:07:26|brentswain38|Sirius XM Radio|Does anyone here use Sirius XM satellite radio? Sent me an email,. if you do.|
33936|33797|2017-01-03 11:48:07|John Riehl|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|<!-- #ygrps-yiv-296206820    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820   #ygrps-yiv-296206820 p.ygrps-yiv-296206820MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-296206820 li.ygrps-yiv-296206820MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-296206820 div.ygrps-yiv-296206820MsoNormal 	{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 a:link, #ygrps-yiv-296206820 span.ygrps-yiv-296206820MsoHyperlink 	{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 a:visited, #ygrps-yiv-296206820 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	{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 span.ygrps-yiv-296206820yshortcuts1 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 span.ygrps-yiv-296206820yshortcuts2 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 span.ygrps-yiv-296206820EmailStyle37 	{font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 .ygrps-yiv-296206820MsoChpDefault 	{font-size:10.0pt;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 div.ygrps-yiv-296206820WordSection1 	{} #ygrps-yiv-296206820    _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Symbol;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:"Courier New";}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;}  _filtered #ygrps-yiv-296206820 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 ol 	{margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-296206820 ul 	{margin-bottom:0in;} -->Brent,  How much for plans for the 31, and do you accept a check drawn on a US bank?  John  <b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;'>From:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 13, 2016 5:21 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'    My book has the sail plan and specs on all my designs. For a copy, please send $20, pus $5 for Canadian postage, $10 for US postage,or $20 for overseas airmail postage , to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0I remember reading an article on a guy who built himself a steel 35 footer.   He also built a 135 lb anchor, which he disassembled and stowed in the bilge. When a hurricane came along , he assembled it , set it, then watched boats drag by him ,until his was the only boat left in the anchorage. Then he went to bed.One use was all  it took to justify it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :I have made one dissassembleable, but I was wondering, does your book contain your designs?   And if so, can you remind everyone how to get your book?Matt   |
33937|33797|2017-01-05 16:38:08|brentswain38|Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'|Plans for my 31 are $300. A cheque is fine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <riehlj2002@...> wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500    filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500   #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 p.ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 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	{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 span.ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500yshortcuts1 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 span.ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500yshortcuts2 	{font-family:"Verdana", sans-serif;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 span.ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500EmailStyle37 	{font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 .ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500MsoChpDefault 	{font-size:10.0pt;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 div.ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500WordSection1 	{} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500    filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Symbol;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:"Courier New";} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 ol 	{margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1543681222 #ygrps-yiv-1543681222ygrps-yiv-1990921500 ul 	{margin-bottom:0in;}Brent,  How much for plans for the 31, and do you accept a check drawn on a US bank?  John  <b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 13, 2016 5:21 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor inventory BS 36'   My book has the sail plan and specs on all my designs. For a copy, please send $20, pus $5 for Canadian postage, $10 for US postage,or $20 for overseas airmail postage , to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0I remember reading an article on a guy who built himself a steel 35 footer.   He also built a 135 lb anchor, which he disassembled and stowed in the bilge. When a hurricane came along , he assembled it , set it, then watched boats drag by him ,until his was the only boat left in the anchorage. Then he went to bed.One use was all  it took to justify it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <m_j_malone@...> wrote :I have made one dissassembleable, but I was wondering, does your book contain your designs?   And if so, can you remind everyone how to get your book?Matt   |
33938|23272|2017-01-21 14:02:17|jaybeecherbay|Re: Stern tube construction|my stern tube is shelby thick wall tube, and I have a 5" regular cutlass bearing. and standard stuffing box. I want to use a grease filled stern tube.  should I drill a couple holes in the tube fore of the cutless bearing/ (like water pick up holes)  for the grease to squeeze out?  A friend of mine who has used a grease filled stern tube for 20 years without problems told me I should set it up like a water lubricated stern tube for the grease to properly fill the tube, and relieve pressure...  thoughts?|
33939|23272|2017-01-21 18:20:58|opuspaul|Re: Stern tube construction|I have the same setup.    I never put any grease in mine and it has lasted over 25 years.   I just painted the inside of the tube by dragging an epoxy coated rag through it.   There has never been any corrosion.   Grease might help protect the steel but it does nothing for a water lubricated cutless bearing.  A good flow of water is important for cooling and washing out anything abrasive.  On large shafts, they actually inject water into the tube so that there is always good flow.   I just put two 1/2 inch holes just ahead of the cutlass bearing which allow the water to come in and through.   A standard stuffing box should also have a  small drip of water when running to help keep it cool.  A common mistake people make is to go to tight with their stuffing box in an effort to stop any drips.  This will overheat and score the shaft.   When running, they should always be cool or slightly warm to touch.  Never hot.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :my stern tube is shelby thick wall tube, and I have a 5" regular cutlass bearing. and standard stuffing box. I want to use a grease filled stern tube.  should I drill a couple holes in the tube fore of the cutless bearing/ (like water pick up holes)  for the grease to squeeze out?  A friend of mine who has used a grease filled stern tube for 20 years without problems told me I should set it up like a water lubricated stern tube for the grease to properly fill the tube, and relieve pressure...  thoughts?|
33940|23272|2017-01-21 19:08:04|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|I just drilled and tapped a hole with a 1/8th pipe thread in my stuffing box, but sometimes I do it in the stern tube ,just behind the stuffing box .Doesn't make much difference which you choose. A standard grease hose has a standard 1/8th inch pipe thread on it. You can eliminate the grease zirk and just thread the hose permanently on ,and use 1/8th inch couplers to make up a longer hose. Then you just permanently mount your grease gun in a convenient place. Has worked well for my over many decades. Plenty of opportunity for grease to escape thru the bearing grooves .Friends have done it  that way with a rubber bearing , but I use bronze oilite bearings which last many years of year  round use. No need for any  more holes in the sterntube.I cut a couple of 1/4 inch by 3/4 inch slots in the sides of the back end of the stern tube ,to make it easy to get the bearing out, with a centre punch.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :my stern tube is shelby thick wall tube, and I have a 5" regular cutlass bearing. and standard stuffing box. I want to use a grease filled stern tube.  should I drill a couple holes in the tube fore of the cutless bearing/ (like water pick up holes)  for the grease to squeeze out?  A friend of mine who has used a grease filled stern tube for 20 years without problems told me I should set it up like a water lubricated stern tube for the grease to properly fill the tube, and relieve pressure...  thoughts?|
33941|23272|2017-01-22 12:08:25|jaybeecherbay|Re: Stern tube construction|thanks brent!  I came across this example of adding a grease fitting to a nut style stuffing box:Creating a Dripless Stuffing Box                             Creating a Dripless Stuffing Box   Modern dripless propeller shaft seals work great, but they can be expensive. If they fail, they cannot be serviced without a haul-out. Some ocean cruisers             View on www.sailboat-cruising...        Preview by Yahoo              do think this is a good spot to drill and tap a fitting?   I looks like with three rows of packing I should have enough room on the theads to add a pipe for the grease gun attachment.  is it better to have the grease enter closer to the glands in the stuffing box, or like you said not much difference if I add it to the stern tube...??thanks again!J. |
33942|23272|2017-01-22 19:15:05|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|That is pretty much where mine is. No problem, but here is no need for a grease fitting ,if you drill and tap it for a standard 1/8th inch pipe thread.That will let you just thread the end of the grease hose directly into the stuffing box. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :thanks brent!  I came across this example of adding a grease fitting to a nut style stuffing box:Creating a Dripless Stuffing Box                             Creating a Dripless Stuffing Box   Modern dripless propeller shaft seals work great, but they can be expensive. If they fail, they cannot be serviced without a haul-out. Some ocean cruisers             View on www.sailboat-cruising...        Preview by Yahoo              do think this is a good spot to drill and tap a fitting?   I looks like with three rows of packing I should have enough room on the theads to add a pipe for the grease gun attachment.  is it better to have the grease enter closer to the glands in the stuffing box, or like you said not much difference if I add it to the stern tube...??thanks again!J. |
33943|33943|2017-02-02 15:17:46|brentswain38|Cuba|I am in Cuba til the 18th of February ,so answering my mail may be a bit slow til then.Thanks for your patience. Brent|
33944|7338|2017-02-02 15:21:26|brentswain38|Silas Crosby|Silas Crosby sold a while ago , unless it has come up for resale( which I doubt)Ocean Boy is a similar boat, very well built , but with  an aft cockpit ,which I belivee may still be for sale.|
33945|7338|2017-02-02 15:23:29|lisnion|Silas Crosby|Is the Silas Crosby still for sale? I lost the link & can't figure out how to search the group archives.Ian|
33946|7338|2017-02-02 19:13:46|Gordon Schnell|Re: Silas Crosby|Sorry Ian….I don’t know who owns the Silas Crosby.Gord On Jan 29, 2017, at 7:10 PM, lisnion@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Is the Silas Crosby still for sale? I lost the link & can't figure out how to search the group archives.Ian|
33947|33947|2017-02-08 10:12:14|gerard.laverty|Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|Hi everyone,I've been a member of the site for a couple of years now, trying to learn for what's being discussed on all matters to do with steel boats. I've found a prospect in Trinidad. It a 28 year old 40' Custom Kanter steel sloop. The original owner is the seller.Canadian registered built to Lloyds standard. He had lived aboard on and off for a number of years, cruising the Caribeean. I'm hoping to go see it in April. Most equipment is original, though he says the 55Hp Yanmar has 1500 hours on it. If anyone had experience with these boats or recommendations on how to proceed. The asking price is $15,000.00 so I figure its' worth a look.|
33948|33947|2017-02-11 15:43:21|Hannu Venermo|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|Fwiw.. Anything on a steel boat is relatively easy to change or fix.  Measure.Cut.Weld.Paint. Repeat as needed.  Most stuff 28 years old will likely be less than useful.  I think the price is good.  If the hull is good, the deal is great, for the size. You could not buy the steel and weld the hull only, for that cost.  Tanks may often by a weak point- often with rust.  Rusting under any foaming in the hull may be an issue. This may or may not be a major issue killing the deal.  Refitting a big steel boat used: My advice.  I would expect that; - refurb costs == 20-40k $. CRITICAL - check *local* prices and availability !!!  For me, I would expect to potentially ship one container of "stuff",  once, to trinidad. Shipping is dirt cheap, about 2-3000$, from anywhere in the world to  anywhere else, more or less.  This would allow *me* to source everything I might need at the cheapest  price I could buy them, wholesale, globally. I would also thus be able to ship my own industrial level tools in in  the same container. Industrial level EU power stable saws, welders, lights etc. Compressor, pneumatic tooling, hydraulics, whatever needed.  These make any jobs 10x easier than hobby level tools.  A shipping container (steel) is a free secure storage site globally, and  can be used next to the boat, usually. You buy it used for 1000$ and sell it used for 1000$.  Winches, rigging, anchor chain, anchor, pumps for (fuel, oil, water,  plumbing, discharges), wiring, valves, meters, plumbing, hose, tubes,  inner liners, fabrics, galley items, navigiation instruments - all  potentially useless.  It is a big job to check everything, a big job to take any out (this is usually hard % painful). An easy, relatively fast, job to then re-install everything, new (nos),  and expensive.  I would expect a refit to be done fast, using cheap local labour, and me  working at the site 8 hours per day. The single-source of having EVERYTHING with You before you start is a  10-fold gain in effiency.  It is *very expensive* in time, effort, fuel to go and get e.g. one tube  of caulk, in most parts of the world. Example: Usually, that one tube costs the same, or more, than a box of 12 (or 24)  wholesale price. Price difference is easily 10-fold or more.  Espacially for marine stuff. Repeat about 600 times for various details.  Example: Heat-shrink crimp-on marine terminals. Pack of 500 vs small lots of 25 each. Price difference is easily 10-fold or more.  Example: Tinned marine wiring - instruments, lights, engine controls, hotel  loads, etc. Price difference is easily 10-fold or more.  Potential major costs, most probably do not take into account. Wiring can be a major cost (thousands) and may need lots of hours. Think about access, cabling runs, switches.  Same applies to: Pumps, seacocks, etc. Caulks, bedding compounds, prop shaft, props. Engine components. Tanks.  I would expect a 40-foot sailboatd to take me and 2-3 helpers, full time  local workers at around 1000€/month each, 3 months, with some industrial  / contractor grade tooling on-site and everything needed at once.  Those are some things to think about, as something that came to me. I almost bought a smaller steel BS boat in Mexico, and the same would  have applied. But I live in Spain, and speak fluent spanish, and am used to dealing  with contractor-type stuff and imports and exports in latin countries  (and elsewhere globally).    On 08/02/2017 16:08, gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] wrote: > If anyone had experience with these boats or recommendations on how to  > proceed. The asking price is $15,000.00 so I figure its' worth a look.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33949|33947|2017-02-11 23:18:42|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|And with an on-board (engine-driven welder, life is good!Sent from my iPhone On Feb 11, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
     
       
       
       Fwiw..
 Anything on a steel boat is relatively easy to change or fix.
 
 Measure.Cut.Weld.Paint.
 Repeat as needed.
 
 Most stuff 28 years old will likely be less than useful.
 
 I think the price is good.
 
 If the hull is good, the deal is great, for the size.
 You could not buy the steel and weld the hull only, for that cost.
 
 Tanks may often by a weak point- often with rust.
 
 Rusting under any foaming in the hull may be an issue.
 This may or may not be a major issue killing the deal.
 
 Refitting a big steel boat used:
 My advice.
 
 I would expect that;
 - refurb costs == 20-40k $.
 CRITICAL
 - check *local* prices and availability !!!
 
 For me, I would expect to potentially ship one container of "stuff", 
 once, to trinidad.
 Shipping is dirt cheap, about 2-3000$, from anywhere in the world to 
 anywhere else, more or less.
 
 This would allow *me* to source everything I might need at the cheapest 
 price I could buy them, wholesale, globally.
 I would also thus be able to ship my own industrial level tools in in 
 the same container.
 Industrial level EU power stable saws, welders, lights etc.
 Compressor, pneumatic tooling, hydraulics, whatever needed.
 
 These make any jobs 10x easier than hobby level tools.
 
 A shipping container (steel) is a free secure storage site globally, and 
 can be used next to the boat, usually.
 You buy it used for 1000$ and sell it used for 1000$.
 
 Winches, rigging, anchor chain, anchor, pumps for (fuel, oil, water, 
 plumbing, discharges), wiring, valves, meters, plumbing, hose, tubes, 
 inner liners, fabrics, galley items, navigiation instruments - all 
 potentially useless.
 
 It is a big job to check everything,
 a big job to take any out (this is usually hard % painful).
 An easy, relatively fast, job to then re-install everything, new (nos), 
 and expensive.
 
 I would expect a refit to be done fast, using cheap local labour, and me 
 working at the site 8 hours per day.
 The single-source of having EVERYTHING with You before you start is a 
 10-fold gain in effiency.
 
 It is *very expensive* in time, effort, fuel to go and get e.g. one tube 
 of caulk, in most parts of the world.
 Example:
 Usually, that one tube costs the same, or more, than a box of 12 (or 24) 
 wholesale price.
 Price difference is easily 10-fold or more.
 
 Espacially for marine stuff.
 Repeat about 600 times for various details.
 
 Example:
 Heat-shrink crimp-on marine terminals.
 Pack of 500 vs small lots of 25 each.
 Price difference is easily 10-fold or more.
 
 Example:
 Tinned marine wiring - instruments, lights, engine controls, hotel 
 loads, etc.
 Price difference is easily 10-fold or more.
 
 Potential major costs, most probably do not take into account.
 Wiring can be a major cost (thousands) and may need lots of hours.
 Think about access, cabling runs, switches.
 
 Same applies to:
 Pumps, seacocks, etc.
 Caulks, bedding compounds, prop shaft, props.
 Engine components.
 Tanks.
 
 I would expect a 40-foot sailboatd to take me and 2-3 helpers, full time 
 local workers at around 1000€/month each, 3 months, with some industrial 
 / contractor grade tooling on-site and everything needed at once.
 
 Those are some things to think about, as something that came to me.
 I almost bought a smaller steel BS boat in Mexico, and the same would 
 have applied.
 But I live in Spain, and speak fluent spanish, and am used to dealing 
 with contractor-type stuff and imports and exports in latin countries 
 (and elsewhere globally).
 
 On 08/02/2017 16:08, gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] wrote:
 > If anyone had experience with these boats or recommendations on how to 
 > proceed. The asking price is $15,000.00 so I figure its' worth a look.
 
 -- 
 -hanermo (cnc designs)
 
 
 
     
      
 
     
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 |
33950|31612|2017-02-14 20:25:18|jaybeecherbay|Re: Furler tubing|Has anyone found a source for this slotted 1 1/4" aluminum pipe used for the roller furler extrusion.??  I am still looking...  |
33951|26750|2017-02-14 20:28:02|jaybeecherbay|Re: Mast sail track|And.. does anyone know a source for extruded aluminum track for mast?  can't find this either!|
33952|33947|2017-02-15 01:09:25|gerard.laverty|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|Thanks for that. I'm in Vancouver and it's beginning to sound less interesting. Your answer was a good reality check.  G.|
33953|33947|2017-02-15 17:29:35|opuspaul|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|In my experience, any steel boat that cheap is normally riddled with rust.   If you have to rip out the interior to replace a lot of plates, I wouldn't bother.  There are lots of cheap and good boats available.   Life is too short and it could end up being a nightmare.    It is not uncommon for a seller to use old photos.  I was involved with a yacht delivery in the Caribbean and  the owner bought the yacht sight unseen based on what turned out to be 6 year old photos taken right after a refit.   The vessel was descibed as turn key but it ended up being a piece of shit.    We had to spend over 4 months in a boatyard doing repairs before we could sail it away from the dock.    I would ask for recent pictures of the bilge and inside lockers before paying for any airline tickets.   1500 hrs on a well maintained diesel is nothing.....If you end up going, be careful.   If you aren't used to traveling, I would ask for someone to meet you at the airport.   Trinadad crime statistics have been rising.   If you have to travel through Venezuela, be especially careful if you need to overnight there in a hotel.  Venezuela has major economic problems and is now one of the most dangerous countries in the world.  I know seasoned travelers who worked there for years who now refuse to go back.https://www.worldnomads.com/travel-safety/caribbean/trinidad-and-tobago/trinidad-and-tobago-high-crimeI don't want to discourage you too much....I think traveling and buying a boat is a wonderful thing and may do it myself.  You might find great deals in Florida, Mexico or even California just by getting a car and harbor hopping.  A lot of the good deals never show up on the internet.   I heard of an old but fully equipped and tough Bounty 40 selling in San Carlos, Mexico for under $10,000.   There are lots of boats spread around islands in the Caribbean but it is more expensive to get around.    I spent 5 months in Grenada.   There are lot of boats since it's boatyards are considered hurricane safe.   I really enjoyed the place and found it relatively safe and friendly.   My friends bought a boat there.   They found it online (and also sold their old boat) via:http://www.sailboatlistings.com/If you go to a place with the idea of having a good holiday then you aren't out much if don't end up buying the boat.Good luck, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gerard.laverty@...> wrote :Hi everyone,I've been a member of the site for a couple of years now, trying to learn for what's being discussed on all matters to do with steel boats. I've found a prospect in Trinidad. It a 28 year old 40' Custom Kanter steel sloop. The original owner is the seller.Canadian registered built to Lloyds standard. He had lived aboard on and off for a number of years, cruising the Caribeean. I'm hoping to go see it in April. Most equipment is original, though he says the 55Hp Yanmar has 1500 hours on it. If anyone had experience with these boats or recommendations on how to proceed. The asking price is $15,000.00 so I figure its' worth a look.|
33954|33947|2017-02-15 18:31:21|Matt Malone|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|          The Rhodes Bounty II 41 foot is potentially a very solid boat.  $10,000 on an ocean is a good price.  The hull is solid like concrete.  If ones slaps the hull near the waterline it sounds like concrete, no hollow sound at all. It is inches of solid glass.    If it is an early one (get hull or sails #) then it is likely very solid but with steel ballast and fibreglass mast (whippy as a fishing rod and tough).  A later hull # will have lead ballast and aluminium mast but may not be as thick in the solid hull.  The  decks are solid and spring a little like a bow if one jumps up and down.  I am not sure but it may only be 3/4inch of glass.  Mine had a dozen blisters, a handful over 1 inch, the rest minor.  The rudder is a weak point in others - google to find the story  of a cruiser who abandoned after a storm near Hawaii after the rudder stock no longer turned the rudder.  The original engine was an Atomic 4 gas engine.   The interior is typical of the era, small and narrow for its length.  Matt    <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 15, 2017 5:26:12 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter         In my experience, any steel boat that cheap is normally riddled with rust.   If you have to rip out the interior to replace a lot of plates, I wouldn't bother.  There are lots of cheap and good boats available.   Life is too short and it could end up being  a nightmare.    It is not uncommon for a seller to use old photos.  I was involved with a yacht delivery in the Caribbean and  the owner bought the yacht sight unseen based on what turned out to be 6 year old photos taken right after a refit.   The vessel  was descibed as turn key but it ended up being a piece of shit.    We had to spend over 4 months in a boatyard doing repairs before we could sail it away from the dock.    I would ask for recent pictures of the bilge and inside lockers before paying for any  airline tickets.   1500 hrs on a well maintained diesel is nothing.....  If you end up going, be careful.   If you aren't used to traveling, I would ask for someone to meet you at the airport.   Trinadad crime statistics have been rising.   If you have to travel through Venezuela, be especially careful if you need to overnight there  in a hotel.  Venezuela has major economic problems and is now one of the most dangerous countries in the world.  I know seasoned travelers who worked there for years who now refuse to go back.  https://www.worldnomads.com/travel-safety/caribbean/trinidad-and-tobago/trinidad-and-tobago-high-crime  I don't want to discourage you too much....I think traveling and buying a boat is a wonderful thing and may do it myself.  You might find great deals in Florida, Mexico or even California just by getting a car and harbor hopping.  A lot of the good deals never  show up on the internet.   I heard of an old but fully equipped and tough Bounty 40 selling in San Carlos, Mexico for under $10,000.   There are lots of boats spread around islands in the Caribbean but it is more expensive to get around.    I spent 5 months  in Grenada.   There are lot of boats since it's boatyards are considered hurricane safe.   I really enjoyed the place and found it relatively safe and friendly.   My friends bought a boat there.   They found it online (and also sold their old boat) via:  http://www.sailboatlistings.com/  If you go to a place with the idea of having a good holiday then you aren't out much if don't end up buying the boat.  Good luck, Paul    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gerard.laverty@...> wrote :   Hi everyone, I've been a member of the site for a couple of years now, trying to learn for what's being discussed on all matters to do with steel boats. I've found a prospect in Trinidad. It a 28 year old 40' Custom Kanter steel sloop. The original owner is the seller.Canadian  registered built to Lloyds standard. He had lived aboard on and off for a number of years, cruising the Caribeean. I'm hoping to go see it in April. Most equipment is original, though he says the 55Hp Yanmar has 1500 hours on it.  If anyone had experience with these boats or recommendations on how to proceed. The asking price is $15,000.00 so I figure its' worth a look.       <!-- #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp hr 	{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1427130829hd 	{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ads 	{margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1427130829ad 	{padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1427130829ad p 	{margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1427130829ad a 	{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1427130829ygrp-lc 	{font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1427130829 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33955|33947|2017-02-17 09:47:58|gerard.laverty|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|Thanks Paul and Matt, It sounds as though the boat has spent a lot of time at the dock so electrolysis could be a problem I suppose. I'm waiting for current photos and the crime  and violence especially Venezuela is a concern.  I'd really like to own a Brent Swain bilge keel 36. Took a long time to turn down just that last year because the low Canadian dollar made it too expensive for me. A steel boat just make a lot of sense to me.  Thanks.|
33956|33947|2017-02-20 15:29:02|m_chrest|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|Hi Hannu,  Do you recommend a 20' or 40' container? It seems a 20' would be much easier to move around, but I'm not sure if all this boat repair equipment woud fit into a 20' container.Mike|
33957|31612|2017-02-20 15:36:52|brentswain38|Re: Furler tubing|I have been told it is no longer available. We will have to cut our own slots. Make sure you don't twist it while running it thru the table saw. An extra hand and a felt pen mark on the top should do the trick.Lee Valley tools sells a deburring tool which is great for smoothing out the slot, for around $15. Some have carefully ran a thin angle grinder disk at a 45 degree angle in the slot, to round the edges out  a bit.. Then it's  sandpaper around a pencil to sand it super smooth. Make sure you weld the last two inches of the slot closed, as that drastically reduces the twisting of the pipe. Just got home from Cuba . Great trip, but glad to be home again. Spring is not hat far off anymore.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :Has anyone found a source for this slotted 1 1/4" aluminum pipe used for the roller furler extrusion.??  I am still looking...  |
33958|26750|2017-02-20 15:39:31|brentswain38|Re: Mast sail track|Friends found it in a riggers in Sidney BC , but that was a while back. Don't know if they have it any more. Ken has some tricks for making it out  of stainless.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jaybeecherbay@...> wrote :And.. does anyone know a source for extruded aluminum track for mast?  can't find this either!|
33959|33947|2017-02-20 15:41:41|brentswain38|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|My steel is 32 year sold and as good as the day I built her.I saw a photo of a place in Clearwater Florida with acres of salvaged gear of wrecked boats . You could sail her there and oufit her there.|
33960|33947|2017-02-20 16:29:25|Hannu Venermo|Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter|                   In terms of normal people, normal stuff, a 20 ft container is huge.     It will be 1/10 - 1/3 used, by volume and less by weight capacity,     imo, ime, based on lots of experience.          A full set of light industrial tools is 3-6000 kg, about 3 m3.     A 20 ft container has 35.000 kg capacity, 33 m3.     Plasma/laser cnc cutter, genset, lathe,  compressor, saw, sanders,     grinders, stuff.. maybe 4 tons.               A major total rebuild of a cruising yacht, say 14 m in size, would     likely need about 2-4000 kg of stuff installed.     1.5-2-3x un-installed by mass, and 10x by volume.     The extra is waste.          The installed-refit might be 3 m3 in volume.          Either container is trivial to move around, including by hand.     Yes, a single person can relatively easily move a container empty or     full, with no major power tools.     With basic power tools from the container, it is trivial and fast     and efficient.          Any kind of rollers/tracks that can even be carried in the container     if you need to, will allow one to move a 30 ton container, fairly     easily, in a controlled manner.     On concrete surfaces (or tracks), round steel rollers are easy and     trivial.     Anyone can jack a 30 ton container onto rollers in some minutes by     hand.          A powered lift/draw of any type will make the work fast and     efficient, if you need any gradient or major distance.     A human == 50W power.     A trivial powered tool is 2 kW == 40 humans. You can waste half in     inefficiencies, at 30 cents/hour in electric costs.          Today, 10 metric ton slings/to 30 tons(to 60 tons doubled), cost     10-20$ each or less. Buy bigger, double everything, use std basic     rigger techniques.     Single-pull/control, rigid spreader, doubled lifters, major safety     ratings, avoid-lifts when You can.               Interesting example.     Any winch on a sailboat will easily move a container, if you rig for     suitable advantage.     Mostly, I think 1:1 will work.          A 70 metric tons steel displacement yacht 24 m is easily pulled by     hand, 50 watts, if there is no wind.     Slow, at first, but it comes along easily.     A winch on any 10m+ sailboat is 10x stronger or more.               ---          On 20/02/2017 20:49,       mikechrest@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            Hi Hannu,               Do you recommend a 20' or 40' container? It seems a               20' would be much easier to move around, but I'm not sure               if all this boat repair equipment woud fit into a 20'               container.             Mike                                                   --  -hanermo (cnc designs)      |
33961|33947|2017-02-20 18:06:56|Matt Malone|Moving a shipping container|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-1382191905 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       Shipping containers are about 1/6 the price and about 100 times stronger and more secure than any wood building or shed one might use for storage.   Even if one is not shipping tools to some foreign port, one might consider a shipping container on their  own work yard.   Hannu was saying how easy it is to move a shipping container once it is delivered.   That assumes a lot.  Lets assume the container cannot be dropped by the truck in the location where you need it to be, because if that is at all possible, ask for that.    I know plenty of people who can sail, and some who could weld who had no experience in logging or farming or with dropping, lifting or moving big heavy things over the ground.  If a person is quite practiced with jacks and come-alongs and boat-trailer type  winches and using vehicles to safely move heavy things controlled distances, in controlled ways, that is just a start.   In addition, I would suggest they have already accumulated their first 10 "oh-shit"-tons experience -- that is 10 different occasions moving  one ton where something slid sideways and "oh-shit" was verbalized.  That or 2 occasions with 5 tons.   Then yes, it is possible this operation might go down without another oh-shit moment amoung other people's boats one cannot afford to replace -- the work  environment I imagine Hannu was thinking of.  With that level of experience, and a smooth surface to work with, then yes, moving an empty shipping container around by hand can be really easy.       Moving a 40 foot container on soft or uneven ground, without the help of heavy equipment requires more preparation.   Being able to move your container to less favourable ground leaving the more favourable ground to things that require favourable ground  might make the difference between having the container "in the way" and "not in the way".   This may change the amount of money one pays for space in someone else's yard.  It might become apparent later that that nice flat, hard piece of your own yard where  the container is would have been far more conveniently used for something else -- like maybe building/working on your boat.   Plan ahead.  Make wheels for your container.   I used 12 feet of 4" pipe, about 5 feet of 4.5" pipe, two old street-racer tires I  found by the side of the road and concrete to make a Fred-Flintstone-style axle.  I put it under the middle of the container before the transport truck put the container all the way onto the ground.  I used it to move my 40' container over soft uneven ground  with stumps and everything.  Where I finally put it, it has never been in the way.   All my oh-shit moments were recorded as bark-damage on trees along the way.   Trees do not sue.        Matt          <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 20, 2017 4:29 PM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Information on a 40' Custom Kanter         In terms of normal people, normal stuff, a 20 ft container is huge. It will be 1/10 - 1/3 used, by volume and less by weight capacity, imo, ime, based on lots of experience.  A full set of light industrial tools is 3-6000 kg, about 3 m3. A 20 ft container has 35.000 kg capacity, 33 m3. Plasma/laser cnc cutter, genset, lathe,  compressor, saw, sanders, grinders, stuff.. maybe 4 tons.   A major total rebuild of a cruising yacht, say 14 m in size, would likely need about 2-4000 kg of stuff installed. 1.5-2-3x un-installed by mass, and 10x by volume. The extra is waste.  The installed-refit might be 3 m3 in volume.  Either container is trivial to move around, including by hand. Yes, a single person can relatively easily move a container empty or full, with no major power tools. With basic power tools from the container, it is trivial and fast and efficient.  Any kind of rollers/tracks that can even be carried in the container if you need to, will allow one to move a 30 ton container, fairly easily, in a controlled manner. On concrete surfaces (or tracks), round steel rollers are easy and trivial. Anyone can jack a 30 ton container onto rollers in some minutes by hand.  A powered lift/draw of any type will make the work fast and efficient, if you need any gradient or major distance. A human == 50W power. A trivial powered tool is 2 kW == 40 humans. You can waste half in inefficiencies, at 30 cents/hour in electric costs.  Today, 10 metric ton slings/to 30 tons(to 60 tons doubled), cost 10-20$ each or less. Buy bigger, double everything, use std basic rigger techniques. Single-pull/control, rigid spreader, doubled lifters, major safety ratings, avoid-lifts when You can.   Interesting example. Any winch on a sailboat will easily move a container, if you rig for suitable advantage. Mostly, I think 1:1 will work.  A 70 metric tons steel displacement yacht 24 m is easily pulled by hand, 50 watts, if there is no wind. Slow, at first, but it comes along easily. A winch on any 10m+ sailboat is 10x stronger or more.   ---   On 20/02/2017 20:49,  mikechrest@... [origamiboats] wrote:      Hi Hannu,   Do you recommend a 20' or 40' container? It seems a 20' would be much easier to move around, but I'm not sure if all this boat repair equipment woud fit into a 20' container. Mike    --  -hanermo (cnc designs)           |
33962|26750|2017-02-21 20:36:33|jpronk1|Re: Mast sail track|I was at Don's in Clearwater a month ago and was blown away by the prices they were asking for old junk! Tried to buy a 2' length of bent stanchion and they wanted $25 for it. The yard is overwhelmingly full, I have never seen such a pile of masts before! I herd that the owner didn't like parting with stuff and the yard shows it! I think there must be far better deals out there then Don's, from the unbelievable number of wreaked, half sunk boats I have seen all over the west coast of Florida! Just today we came across a 40' ketch with winches, masts and rigging, half sunk.  James     Sent from my iPhone|
33963|33947|2017-02-23 17:16:06|m_chrest|Re: Moving a shipping container|Hanermo and Matt,   Thanks very much for the detailed response. I have a bunch of boatbuilding /repairing tools and have worked in large repair shops and yards in the past. Usually I just brought my tools piece by piece to the job and stored them in steel lock boxes. The idea of a portable shop is very appealing to me. I have a small tool trailer but I would need something much larger to store/transport everything. The shipping container is sounding very interesting.   Hanermo, you mention bringing a lathe, do you think there is enough use for one in boat repair/refit to justify the weight? I do not currently have a metal lathe but always thought about getting one. They are so damn heavy though. Perhaps a small one?Thanks again,Mike|
33964|33947|2017-02-23 17:30:56|brentswain38|Re: Moving a shipping container|There is little use for a lathe, and no justification for buying one. Prop shaft and coupling are the only use. Welder, angle grinder and possibly cutting torch are the only ones needed for  metal work. For navigation, a hand held GPS and a depth sounder are the only electronics needed. I cruised 15 years , and several Pacific crossings, before installing my first electrical system. Go cruising, and install it piece by piece, as you cruise.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <mikechrest@...> wrote :Hanermo and Matt,   Thanks very much for the detailed response. I have a bunch of boatbuilding /repairing tools and have worked in large repair shops and yards in the past. Usually I just brought my tools piece by piece to the job and stored them in steel lock boxes. The idea of a portable shop is very appealing to me. I have a small tool trailer but I would need something much larger to store/transport everything. The shipping container is sounding very interesting.   Hanermo, you mention bringing a lathe, do you think there is enough use for one in boat repair/refit to justify the weight? I do not currently have a metal lathe but always thought about getting one. They are so damn heavy though. Perhaps a small one?Thanks again,Mike|
33965|33947|2017-02-24 04:37:34|Hannu Venermo|Re: Moving a shipping container|I have a light-industrial 12x lathe - very heavily modified into a  modern industrial-level CNC refit. It started life as a new Chester Craftsman from the UK, 2400£ or so, 10  years ago, 400 shipping (2500 km).  Even as-is from the sellers, it would be a very good choice for boaty stuff. It takes up about as much space as a small desk and chair in use. And a lot less in a container. The volume is small.  One, or even 4, would easily fit in a 20 foot container among the other  stuff. Mass on mine was 450 kg, now 550 kg. One could easily use a lathe in the container, as well, with light  strips up top. A small pallet jack allows me, alone, to move upto 1000 kg stuff easily.  A container can carry 30.000 kg, so the mass of the lathe is totally  immaterial. They are very dense, and take up little space. I will likely have a cnc lathe in the boat.  My opinion is that the 12x24 sized lathe is the minimum needed for  metalworking, on boats and general stuff. The speed/efficiency is about 10x higher than anything smaller, since  workpieces tend to be steels and metals of all kinds.  Of the tiny lathes, I do not recommend the 7x (far too small) or the 9x  series (far too floppy). IF you do get one, buy by mass. Heavier is better- always - by a huge amount.  For cheap fun and amusement in lathes, get an 8x or 10x, for learning. QCTP of suitable size, lathe CCMT series toolholders in 21.51 size, CCMT  inserts. CCMT is the universal cheap inserts good for anything, cheap, cuts  anything, leaves great finish, just wears/chips too fast for production  on 20 kW / 6000 kg machines.  Used is fine, age is immaterial, checking a lathe requires some 30$ tools, mosty a DTI, holder, and a ground machinists straightedge or granite reference flat + a good  light (led is good).   The main reason for having a lathe ex-boatyard, is that most times You  can make a 500$ part from 20$ of scrap, in 2-5 hours, or pay 500$ + 500$  in customs fees and shipping with a 3 week wait to get one. IF you buy a second hand boat away from the usa, mostly, it will not be  easy, fast, cheap or convenient to get bits and pieces. Brackets, holders, spacers, backing plates, bearing mounts, whatever.  A lathe works just fine on steels and all stainless steels, and a lot of  boaty stuff gets made on them.  My lathe is approaching a 70k industrial one, with (soon) milling on Y  axis with live tools, and 2 automatic toolchangers, and B axis. My case is very different to usual ones, where the CNC stuff is  important to me, and I will be running production on them. None of that applies or is useful to most-anyone else here.   On 21/02/2017 20:30, mikechrest@... [origamiboats] wrote: >    Hanermo, you mention bringing a lathe, do you think there is enough  > use for one in boat repair/refit to justify the weight? I do not  > currently have a metal lathe but always thought about getting one.  > They are so damn heavy though. Perhaps a small one? > Thanks again, > Mike  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33966|33947|2017-02-24 04:39:10|Hannu Venermo|Re: Moving a shipping container|My pov is different, but I also quite accept what You say. But 99% of people want *some* boaty stuff, some shiny stuff (316L),  electrical systems, pressurised water, etc.  And where spares or "stuff" is not available, a lathe allows one to  fab/modify/recondition what you want, at need.  From water pipe/hose connectors in bronze to engine spares, linkages,  standoffs, to whatever. Handles, valves, and so on. Change a metric or imperial thread to whatever thread/size/fitting is  needed. Takes about 3 minutes on a lathe.  You are quite right that one does not really need, at all, most of the  comfort items ... but then it is too much like camping and not so well suited for family life.  Just like a cutting torch .. today, I would only consider a plasma  torch, myself.   On 23/02/2017 23:30, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > There is little use for a lathe, and no justification for buying one.  > Prop shaft and coupling are the only use. Welder, angle grinder and  > possibly cutting torch are the only ones needed for  metal work. > For navigation, a hand held GPS and a depth sounder are the only  > electronics needed. >  I cruised 15 years , and several Pacific crossings, before installing  > my first electrical system. Go cruising, and install it piece by  > piece, as you cruise.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33967|33967|2017-02-24 08:53:08|smallboatvoyaguer|Size screws for surface mounting windows| Yo! What size screws are people using for surface mounting their windows or ports or port lights or port holes or whatever one chooses to call them? -Mar|
33968|33947|2017-02-24 10:09:16|Darren Bos|Re: Moving a shipping container|                   There's always more than one way to do a job, but if you have a       lathe you will inevitably find uses for it.  On the other end from       what Hanermo is suggesting I have a Cummins 7x14 Mini lathe       (similar ones are sold by Harbour Freight and Princess Auto).  For       its diminutive size it has turned out a surprising number of boat       parts.  With a new four jaw chuck I even turned HDPE bearings to       accommodate my 3" rudder shaft.  These lathes are relatively       inexpensive and small enough to take along with you should you       wish to.  There is a huge community that uses these lathes so       there are lots of parts/accessories and information.  Once       properly set up it can make parts to greater accuracy than       required on my boat.     Darren               On 17-02-24 01:29 AM, Hannu Venermo       gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                            I have a light-industrial 12x lathe - very heavily               modified into a                modern industrial-level CNC refit.               It started life as a new Chester Craftsman from the UK,               2400£ or so, 10                years ago, 400 shipping (2500 km).                              Even as-is from the sellers, it would be a very good               choice for boaty stuff.               It takes up about as much space as a small desk and chair               in use.               And a lot less in a container. The volume is small.                              One, or even 4, would easily fit in a 20 foot container               among the other                stuff.               Mass on mine was 450 kg, now 550 kg.               One could easily use a lathe in the container, as well,               with light                strips up top.               A small pallet jack allows me, alone, to move upto 1000 kg               stuff easily.                              A container can carry 30.000 kg, so the mass of the lathe               is totally                immaterial.               They are very dense, and take up little space.               I will likely have a cnc lathe in the boat.                              My opinion is that the 12x24 sized lathe is the minimum               needed for                metalworking, on boats and general stuff.               The speed/efficiency is about 10x higher than anything               smaller, since                workpieces tend to be steels and metals of all kinds.                              Of the tiny lathes, I do not recommend the 7x (far too               small) or the 9x                series (far too floppy).               IF you do get one, buy by mass.               Heavier is better- always - by a huge amount.                              For cheap fun and amusement in lathes, get an 8x or 10x,               for learning.               QCTP of suitable size, lathe CCMT series toolholders in               21.51 size, CCMT                inserts.               CCMT is the universal cheap inserts good for anything,               cheap, cuts                anything, leaves great finish, just wears/chips too fast               for production                on 20 kW / 6000 kg machines.                              Used is fine,               age is immaterial,               checking a lathe requires some 30$ tools,               mosty a DTI, holder, and               a ground machinists straightedge or granite reference flat               + a good                light (led is good).                              The main reason for having a lathe ex-boatyard, is that               most times You                can make a 500$ part from 20$ of scrap, in 2-5 hours, or               pay 500$ + 500$                in customs fees and shipping with a 3 week wait to get               one.               IF you buy a second hand boat away from the usa, mostly,               it will not be                easy, fast, cheap or convenient to get bits and pieces.               Brackets, holders, spacers, backing plates, bearing               mounts, whatever.                              A lathe works just fine on steels and all stainless               steels, and a lot of                boaty stuff gets made on them.                              My lathe is approaching a 70k industrial one, with (soon)               milling on Y                axis with live tools, and 2 automatic toolchangers, and B               axis.               My case is very different to usual ones, where the CNC               stuff is                important to me, and I will be running production on them.               None of that applies or is useful to most-anyone else               here.                              On 21/02/2017 20:30, mikechrest@... [origamiboats]               wrote:               > Hanermo, you mention bringing a lathe, do you think               there is enough                > use for one in boat repair/refit to justify the               weight? I do not                > currently have a metal lathe but always thought about               getting one.                > They are so damn heavy though. Perhaps a small one?               > Thanks again,               > Mike                              --                -hanermo (cnc designs)                                                                               |
33969|33947|2017-02-24 11:42:42|Matt Malone|Re: Moving a shipping container|    <!--#ygrps-yiv-675390254 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->       I am with Brent on this keep it simple -- the weldernator, an angle grinder.  Here are my thoughts against a medium sized lathe on board:     - A 500kg lathe in your boat is likely to whisper to an official in a foreign port that you intend to work in the country illegally.        - If I were going to mount anything in my boat of that size, in a convenient work area, it would be my engine, in the middle of the cabin, enclosed under the table, for easy access.        - If you do he math, no matter how low you try to practically place the lathe, it does not count as positive ballast, in fact, it would not be hard for its CG to be above the boat CG, and then it is negative ballast.   If you get rid of the stand, so the  bedway is only inches off the hull, and you are comfortable working on it sitting cross-legged on the floor, then it might be a very small positive ballast.        That said, the little lathes one can find in Princess Auto, Harbour Freight and other places, I have looked at them many times.   The ones I have been able to inspect closely, they seem to be equipped with a universal motor (with brushes), the same as the  vast majority of hand tools.   This means it is possible the motor will be quite happy running on DC like the weldernator is likely to produce.      About running AC tools on DC:  4 out of 5 of my 120VAC hand tools are happy with DC from a battery source but one smoked at the trigger.  A weldernator is pulsating DC so it may be more kind to trigger switches, but some tools might still smoke.      A universal motor also means, the motor is likely to have a shorter life than one that runs from an induction motor, possibly even shorter in a salt water environment.       On inspection, it will appear to be a cute little boaty lathe, not threatening to domestic workers and unlikely to cause questions.  It will be so small, you could stow it and bolt it to a table when you need it.  It would be so light, it really does not  matter where you mount it ballast-wise.       Matt       <b>From:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2017 10:09 AM <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving a shipping container          There's always more than one way to do a job, but if you have a lathe you will inevitably find uses for it.  On the other end from what Hanermo is suggesting I have a Cummins 7x14 Mini lathe (similar ones are sold by Harbour Freight and Princess Auto).   For its diminutive size it has turned out a surprising number of boat parts.  With a new four jaw chuck I even turned HDPE bearings to accommodate my 3" rudder shaft.  These lathes are relatively inexpensive and small enough to take along with you should you  wish to.  There is a huge community that uses these lathes so there are lots of parts/accessories and information.  Once properly set up it can make parts to greater accuracy than required on my boat. Darren   On 17-02-24 01:29 AM, Hannu Venermo  gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:      I have a light-industrial 12x lathe - very heavily modified into a  modern industrial-level CNC refit. It started life as a new Chester Craftsman from the UK, 2400£ or so, 10  years ago, 400 shipping (2500 km).  Even as-is from the sellers, it would be a very good choice for boaty stuff. It takes up about as much space as a small desk and chair in use. And a lot less in a container. The volume is small.  One, or even 4, would easily fit in a 20 foot container among the other  stuff. Mass on mine was 450 kg, now 550 kg. One could easily use a lathe in the container, as well, with light  strips up top. A small pallet jack allows me, alone, to move upto 1000 kg stuff easily.  A container can carry 30.000 kg, so the mass of the lathe is totally  immaterial. They are very dense, and take up little space. I will likely have a cnc lathe in the boat.  My opinion is that the 12x24 sized lathe is the minimum needed for  metalworking, on boats and general stuff. The speed/efficiency is about 10x higher than anything smaller, since  workpieces tend to be steels and metals of all kinds.  Of the tiny lathes, I do not recommend the 7x (far too small) or the 9x  series (far too floppy). IF you do get one, buy by mass. Heavier is better- always - by a huge amount.  For cheap fun and amusement in lathes, get an 8x or 10x, for learning. QCTP of suitable size, lathe CCMT series toolholders in 21.51 size, CCMT  inserts. CCMT is the universal cheap inserts good for anything, cheap, cuts  anything, leaves great finish, just wears/chips too fast for production  on 20 kW / 6000 kg machines.  Used is fine, age is immaterial, checking a lathe requires some 30$ tools, mosty a DTI, holder, and a ground machinists straightedge or granite reference flat + a good  light (led is good).  The main reason for having a lathe ex-boatyard, is that most times You  can make a 500$ part from 20$ of scrap, in 2-5 hours, or pay 500$ + 500$  in customs fees and shipping with a 3 week wait to get one. IF you buy a second hand boat away from the usa, mostly, it will not be  easy, fast, cheap or convenient to get bits and pieces. Brackets, holders, spacers, backing plates, bearing mounts, whatever.  A lathe works just fine on steels and all stainless steels, and a lot of  boaty stuff gets made on them.  My lathe is approaching a 70k industrial one, with (soon) milling on Y  axis with live tools, and 2 automatic toolchangers, and B axis. My case is very different to usual ones, where the CNC stuff is  important to me, and I will be running production on them. None of that applies or is useful to most-anyone else here.  On 21/02/2017 20:30,  mikechrest@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Hanermo, you mention bringing a lathe, do you think there is enough  > use for one in boat repair/refit to justify the weight? I do not  > currently have a metal lathe but always thought about getting one.  > They are so damn heavy though. Perhaps a small one? > Thanks again, > Mike  --  -hanermo (cnc designs)               |
33970|33947|2017-02-24 15:20:52|Darren Bos|Re: Moving a shipping container|                    I've had my mini-lathe for more than a decade, during which it       has seen a lot of use and even some abuse.  There are many times       when making a new part on it is faster than running to the store.        It has even made things that such a little lathe really ought not       to.  However, it is still going strong.  Although my boat was       designed to have a small machine shop (Benford Brigantine), I doubt my lathe       will make it aboard once everything else has been loaded (family       of four).  However, short of a prop shaft and a few other large       bits, there's not a lot on a boat that is made with a lathe, that       a mini lathe could not be coerced into fixing.  If I was planning       on doing boat-work for pay as I traveled, I would find a place for       it aboard.     Darren               On 17-02-24 08:41 AM, Matt Malone       m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                                                                   I am with Brent on this keep it simple -- the                 weldernator, an angle grinder.  Here are my thoughts                 against a medium sized lathe on board:                                                             - A 500kg lathe in your boat is likely to whisper to                 an official in a foreign port that you intend to work in                 the country illegally.                                                                                - If I were going to mount anything in my boat of that                 size, in a convenient work area, it would be my engine,                 in the middle of the cabin, enclosed under the table,                 for easy access.                                                                                - If you do he math, no matter how low you try to                 practically place the lathe, it does not count as                 positive ballast, in fact, it would not be hard for its                 CG to be above the boat CG, and then it is negative                 ballast.   If you get rid of the stand, so the bedway is                 only inches off the hull, and you are comfortable                 working on it sitting cross-legged on the floor, then it                 might be a very small positive ballast.                                                                                            That said, the little lathes one can find in Princess                 Auto, Harbour Freight and other places, I have looked at                 them many times.   The ones I have been able to inspect                 closely, they seem to be equipped with a universal motor                 (with brushes), the same as the vast majority of hand                 tools.   This means it is possible the motor will be                 quite happy running on DC like the weldernator is likely                 to produce.                                                                              About running AC tools on DC:  4 out of 5 of my 120VAC                 hand tools are happy with DC from a battery source but                 one smoked at the trigger.  A weldernator is pulsating                 DC so it may be more kind to trigger switches, but some                 tools might still smoke.                                                                              A universal motor also means, the motor is likely to                 have a shorter life than one that runs from an induction                 motor, possibly even shorter in a salt water                 environment.                                                                               On inspection, it will appear to be a cute little boaty                 lathe, not threatening to domestic workers and unlikely                 to cause questions.  It will be so small, you could stow                 it and bolt it to a table when you need it.  It would be                 so light, it really does not matter where you mount it                 ballast-wise.                                                               Matt                                                                                 <b>From:</b>                     origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                     <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of                     Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]                     <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>                     <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2017 10:09 AM                     <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com                     <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving a                     shipping container                                                                                                                                               There's always more than one way to do a job,                           but if you have a lathe you will inevitably                           find uses for it.  On the other end from what                           Hanermo is suggesting I have a Cummins 7x14                           Mini lathe (similar ones are sold by Harbour                           Freight and Princess Auto).  For its                           diminutive size it has turned out a surprising                           number of boat parts.  With a new four jaw                           chuck I even turned HDPE bearings to                           accommodate my 3" rudder shaft.  These lathes                           are relatively inexpensive and small enough to                           take along with you should you wish to.  There                           is a huge community that uses these lathes so                           there are lots of parts/accessories and                           information.  Once properly set up it can make                           parts to greater accuracy than required on my                           boat.                         Darren                                                                           On 17-02-24 01:29                           AM, Hannu Venermo                              gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:                                                                                                           I have a light-industrial 12x lathe -                               very heavily modified into a                                modern industrial-level CNC refit.                               It started life as a new Chester Craftsman                               from the UK, 2400£ or so, 10                                years ago, 400 shipping (2500 km).                                                              Even as-is from the sellers, it would be a                               very good choice for boaty stuff.                               It takes up about as much space as a small                               desk and chair in use.                               And a lot less in a container. The volume                               is small.                                                              One, or even 4, would easily fit in a 20                               foot container among the other                                stuff.                               Mass on mine was 450 kg, now 550 kg.                               One could easily use a lathe in the                               container, as well, with light                                strips up top.                               A small pallet jack allows me, alone, to                               move upto 1000 kg stuff easily.                                                              A container can carry 30.000 kg, so the                               mass of the lathe is totally                                immaterial.                               They are very dense, and take up little                               space.                               I will likely have a cnc lathe in the                               boat.                                                              My opinion is that the 12x24 sized lathe                               is the minimum needed for                                metalworking, on boats and general stuff.                               The speed/efficiency is about 10x higher                               than anything smaller, since                                workpieces tend to be steels and metals of                               all kinds.                                                              Of the tiny lathes, I do not recommend the                               7x (far too small) or the 9x                                series (far too floppy).                               IF you do get one, buy by mass.                               Heavier is better- always - by a huge                               amount.                                                              For cheap fun and amusement in lathes, get                               an 8x or 10x, for learning.                               QCTP of suitable size, lathe CCMT series                               toolholders in 21.51 size, CCMT                                inserts.                               CCMT is the universal cheap inserts good                               for anything, cheap, cuts                                anything, leaves great finish, just                               wears/chips too fast for production                                on 20 kW / 6000 kg machines.                                                              Used is fine,                               age is immaterial,                               checking a lathe requires some 30$ tools,                               mosty a DTI, holder, and                               a ground machinists straightedge or                               granite reference flat + a good                                light (led is good).                                                              The main reason for having a lathe                               ex-boatyard, is that most times You                                can make a 500$ part from 20$ of scrap, in                               2-5 hours, or pay 500$ + 500$                                in customs fees and shipping with a 3 week                               wait to get one.                               IF you buy a second hand boat away from                               the usa, mostly, it will not be                                easy, fast, cheap or convenient to get                               bits and pieces.                               Brackets, holders, spacers, backing                               plates, bearing mounts, whatever.                                                              A lathe works just fine on steels and all                               stainless steels, and a lot of                                boaty stuff gets made on them.                                                              My lathe is approaching a 70k industrial                               one, with (soon) milling on Y                                axis with live tools, and 2 automatic                               toolchangers, and B axis.                               My case is very different to usual ones,                               where the CNC stuff is                                important to me, and I will be running                               production on them.                               None of that applies or is useful to                               most-anyone else here.                                                              On 21/02/2017 20:30,                                  mikechrest@... [origamiboats]                               wrote:                               > Hanermo, you mention bringing a                               lathe, do you think there is enough                                > use for one in boat repair/refit to                               justify the weight? I do not                                > currently have a metal lathe but                               always thought about getting one.                                > They are so damn heavy though.                               Perhaps a small one?                               > Thanks again,                               > Mike                                                              --                                -hanermo (cnc designs)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        |
33971|33947|2017-02-24 16:55:18|brentswain38|Re: Moving a shipping container|Having built over 3 dozen boats ,I have seen very little need for lathe on any of them.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :I have a light-industrial 12x lathe - very heavily modified into a  modern industrial-level CNC refit. It started life as a new Chester Craftsman from the UK, 2400£ or so, 10  years ago, 400 shipping (2500 km).  Even as-is from the sellers, it would be a very good choice for boaty stuff. It takes up about as much space as a small desk and chair in use. And a lot less in a container. The volume is small.  One, or even 4, would easily fit in a 20 foot container among the other  stuff. Mass on mine was 450 kg, now 550 kg. One could easily use a lathe in the container, as well, with light  strips up top. A small pallet jack allows me, alone, to move upto 1000 kg stuff easily.  A container can carry 30.000 kg, so the mass of the lathe is totally  immaterial. They are very dense, and take up little space. I will likely have a cnc lathe in the boat.  My opinion is that the 12x24 sized lathe is the minimum needed for  metalworking, on boats and general stuff. The speed/efficiency is about 10x higher than anything smaller, since  workpieces tend to be steels and metals of all kinds.  Of the tiny lathes, I do not recommend the 7x (far too small) or the 9x  series (far too floppy). IF you do get one, buy by mass. Heavier is better- always - by a huge amount.  For cheap fun and amusement in lathes, get an 8x or 10x, for learning. QCTP of suitable size, lathe CCMT series toolholders in 21.51 size, CCMT  inserts. CCMT is the universal cheap inserts good for anything, cheap, cuts  anything, leaves great finish, just wears/chips too fast for production  on 20 kW / 6000 kg machines.  Used is fine, age is immaterial, checking a lathe requires some 30$ tools, mosty a DTI, holder, and a ground machinists straightedge or granite reference flat + a good  light (led is good).   The main reason for having a lathe ex-boatyard, is that most times You  can make a 500$ part from 20$ of scrap, in 2-5 hours, or pay 500$ + 500$  in customs fees and shipping with a 3 week wait to get one. IF you buy a second hand boat away from the usa, mostly, it will not be  easy, fast, cheap or convenient to get bits and pieces. Brackets, holders, spacers, backing plates, bearing mounts, whatever.  A lathe works just fine on steels and all stainless steels, and a lot of  boaty stuff gets made on them.  My lathe is approaching a 70k industrial one, with (soon) milling on Y  axis with live tools, and 2 automatic toolchangers, and B axis. My case is very different to usual ones, where the CNC stuff is  important to me, and I will be running production on them. None of that applies or is useful to most-anyone else here.   --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33972|33967|2017-02-24 17:04:51|brentswain38|Re: Size screws for surface mounting windows|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote : I use #14 round head , on about three inch centres.. . Don't use flat head, they act as wedges , cracking the plexiYo! What size screws are people using for surface mounting their windows or ports or port lights or port holes or whatever one chooses to call them? -Mar|
33973|33967|2017-02-24 17:07:44|brentswain38|Re: Size screws for surface mounting windows|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <musicasrevolution@...> wrote :I drill an  11/32 hole for lots of clearance, with the type of drill bit shown in my book. Clamping a bit of scrap plexi to the  back, under where you are drilling, prevents cracking. Yo! What size screws are people using for surface mounting their windows or ports or port lights or port holes or whatever one chooses to call them? -Mar|
33974|33947|2017-02-24 17:34:43|brentswain38|Re: Moving a shipping container|Shiny stuff can be made with a welder and angle grinder, with brillo type pad,and some exra stainless. ( bring along a lot of scrap stainless, cutting discs and rods) 99% of cruisers I know, or have met , have absolutely  no use for a pressure water system.Electrics can be extremely simple, and inexpensive.Cutting torches need no electricity,or compressed air.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :My pov is different, but I also quite accept what You say. But 99% of people want *some* boaty stuff, some shiny stuff (316L),  electrical systems, pressurised water, etc.  And where spares or "stuff" is not available, a lathe allows one to  fab/modify/recondition what you want, at need. From water pipe/hose connectors in bronze to engine spares, linkages,  standoffs, to whatever. Handles, valves, and so on. Change a metric or imperial thread to whatever thread/size/fitting is  needed. Takes about 3 minutes on a lathe.  You are quite right that one does not really need, at all, most of the  comfort items ... but then it is too much like camping and not so well suited for family life.  Just like a cutting torch .. today, I would only consider a plasma  torch, myself.   On 23/02/2017 23:30, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > There is little use for a lathe, and no justification for buying one.  > Prop shaft and coupling are the only use. Welder, angle grinder and  > possibly cutting torch are the only ones needed for  metal work. > For navigation, a hand held GPS and a depth sounder are the only  > electronics needed. >  I cruised 15 years , and several Pacific crossings, before installing  > my first electrical system. Go cruising, and install it piece by  > piece, as you cruise.  --  -hanermo (cnc designs) |
33975|33818|2017-02-27 20:44:34|wild_explorer|Re: Where did everyone go?|If 40 footer with single keel works for you you may ask if GORDON's SCHNELL still want to sell his boat. When I was visiting Gord, the boat was almost finished. I guess, now it should be ready to be launched. It is HUGE inside.I do not think that boatyard will make you shell better than Gord did.Even if some interior layout you may want to change, you should be able to do it with your budget (about $50K for a fully finished boat you say?).If I had not started my own build before Gord put his boat on the market, I would buy it with no hesitation.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ninbubbas@...> wrote :For me the trickiest part is budgeting for a full build. from what i've seen from others I think i need to have around $50K to do it right start to finish. If everything goes right that is. I can't imagine how much money Seeker has into her at this point. He has been working on her so long and still has so far to go. I don't want to get part way there and not be able to finish and cruise. The lawnchairs and BBQ sounds good though.|
33976|33976|2017-03-04 02:21:56|wild_explorer|Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting| After a while I finally realized that gas cutting torch is a MUST for steel metal work :-)    I know, I know… Brent was saying it in his book and in the group many times. And he was advocating for using Propane as well. Only one draw back there. It needs…. Oxygen. Well I just have to deal with it….    Plasma cutter is nice, but it takes a long time to set it up (compressor, air hose, wires, short torch leads, etc) and require 240V most of the time (even that my cutter can work on 115V as well, but with lower amperage output). And it cannot heat the metal for bending. The biggest draw back (at least for my plasma cutter) it has relatively short torch leads – about 15 ft. I have to move plasma cutter a lot.      So, Oxy-Propane set-up is more universal for steel work. Acetylene is out of question – too dangerous, unstable, very expensive. I do not plan to do gas welding (which is usually done with Oxy-Acetylene). For cutting and heating steel Oxy-Propane is more suitable.    You can get new medium-to-heavy duty Propane compatible kit for $200-300. Just get brand name – not “something” style. I was looking for Lincoln kits and found that is made by Harris (Lincoln owns it).    Most modern multi-fuel torches can be converted to Propane simply by changing cutting tip. Torches specially designed for Alternative fuels is better (it uses different mixer) – easy to operate. Acetylene regulator will work for propane and will fit 20Lb Propane tank.    It is need to have houses in T-grade for Propane (Acetylene kits use R-grade). Most Lincoln kits come with 12 ft hoses, Harris's ones comes with 20ft hoses. 50 ft hoses is easy to get if needed.    I was looking what Oxygen cylinder (tank) to get and how long it will last. It was hard to find this information and it depends on the manufacturer and what tip is used. I found some information (see below).    I started looking for used cylinders first. Problems: 1. Hydro Certification might be expired. 2. Cylinders 125 cu.ft. and above may be stolen rentals (not “owner's” cylinder). 3. Cylinder 125 cu.ft. and above is hard to move/lift by 1 person.    It left me only with 2 choices 40 and 80 cu.ft. I will use 80 cu.ft example.    New 80 cu.ft. Oxygen cylinder will cost you about $200. Refill about $30-40.    There is different Oxygen flow rate for pre-heating and cutting. I will use cutting flow rate. Some numbers for Harris 6290 (Acetylene) vs. 6290-NX (propane) cutting tip for up to 3/8” steel (#00 tip or #64 drill size)    6290 size 00 – O2 45-50 SCFM, fuel 10-15 SCFM 6290NX size 00 – O2 65-75 SCFM, fuel 7.5 SCFM    Propane tip uses more oxygen. 80 cu.ft. cylinder should last (with 75 SCFM flow) slightly more than 1 hour of cutting time.    There some videos (skip advertisement part of the video) and notice the difference between Injector type torch (for propane only) and regular torch using only propane tip:    Injector type torch vs regular one (both using propane) http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Expert-Advice/videos/injector-altfuel-vs-equal-pressure-alt-fuel.aspx    Injector torch using Propane vs regular torch using Acetylene (cost estimate looks a bit off) http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Expert-Advice/videos/injector-altfuel-vs-equal-pressure-acetylene.aspx    |
33977|33977|2017-03-04 09:00:14|pikkukanki36|Hello Canada, Finland calling...|36` hull halves are together, keels are done. Front deck with beams welded. Transom in place.Troubles come when i try draw sidedecks out from drawings to plate. What measure is 2`2 3/4" betweenfirst and second sidedecks. What is correct width of after end of first sidedeck and fore end of second sidedeck? I try made those parts separate, no good result. Maybe somebody can tell right way to draw cuttinglines to steel plate step by step. No troubles with hull, but this one is too imperial for simple man.                                                                                                           Jussi|
33978|33977|2017-03-04 09:02:50|Aaron|Re: Hello Canada, Finland calling...|If I remember it is 2' 5-3/4"  at the midshipSent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 8:00 AM, jussikaukoranta@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       36` hull halves are together, keels are done. Front deck with beams welded. Transom in place.Troubles come when i try draw sidedecks out from drawings to plate. What measure is 2`2 3/4" betweenfirst and second sidedecks. What is correct width of after end of first sidedeck and fore end of second sidedeck? I try made those parts separate, no good result. Maybe somebody can tell right way to draw cuttinglines to steel plate step by step. No troubles with hull, but this one is too imperial for simple man.                                                                                                           Jussi                           #ygrps-yiv-989051463 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846 --   #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-989051463 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-989051463 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-989051463 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-989051463 #ygrps-yiv-989051463yiv4745682846 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33979|33976|2017-03-04 19:42:59|brentswain38|Re: Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting|I have used the original acetylene hoses with propane since 1976,no problem.I find it takes 6 of the big oxy tanks to burn one 20 lb bottle of propane, cost under $30 for the propane.Its almost enough to finish a 36.One acetylene bottle will burn only one big bottle of oxy, and is very expensive.Propane can be filled if you run out on a Sunday ,not an option with acetylene. Most fabricating shops and scrapyards are switching to propane.  The regulator  end fittings  for a torch are available in welding supplies. I just drilled and taped into a 1 1/4 inch bronze prop shaft , ditto a bleed screw hole , and screwed them in . Now I can mostly fill an oxy tank from another bigger one, any time.Yes ,you need a cutting torch to cut where a plasma wont fit.A cutting torch is far easier to carry aboard, than  plasma torch. It doesn't need electricity. You can pack it up the beach.For building,we have found the rentals to be adequate, and convenient enough. Go for the biggest tanks available . Start with two; the first one wont last long, and if you have it less than a month, there is no rental fee.Saves you having to stop work in the middle of the day.Park your tanks amidships, so you wont need as long a hoses. Oxygen tanks can lay on their sides, no problem. Not so for propane or acetylene.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <williswildest@...> wrote :After a while I finally realized that gas cutting torch is a MUST for steel metal work :-)I know, I know… Brent was saying it in his book and in the group many times. And he was advocating for using Propane as well. Only one draw back there. It needs…. Oxygen. Well I just have to deal with it….Plasma cutter is nice, but it takes a long time to set it up (compressor, air hose, wires, short torch leads, etc) and require 240V most of the time (even that my cutter can work on 115V as well, but with lower amperage output). And it cannot heat the metal for bending. The biggest draw back (at least for my plasma cutter) it has relatively short torch leads – about 15 ft. I have to move plasma cutter a lot.So, Oxy-Propane set-up is more universal for steel work. Acetylene is out of question – too dangerous, unstable, very expensive. I do not plan to do gas welding (which is usually done with Oxy-Acetylene). For cutting and heating steel Oxy-Propane is more suitable.You can get new medium-to-heavy duty Propane compatible kit for $200-300. Just get brand name – not “something” style. I was looking for Lincoln kits and found that is made by Harris (Lincoln owns it).Most modern multi-fuel torches can be converted to Propane simply by changing cutting tip. Torches specially designed for Alternative fuels is better (it uses different mixer) – easy to operate.Acetylene regulator will work for propane and will fit 20Lb Propane tank.It is need to have houses in T-grade for Propane (Acetylene kits use R-grade). Most Lincoln kits come with 12 ft hoses, Harris's ones comes with 20ft hoses. 50 ft hoses is easy to get if needed.I was looking what Oxygen cylinder (tank) to get and how long it will last. It was hard to find this information and it depends on the manufacturer and what tip is used. I found some information (see below).I started looking for used cylinders first. Problems:1. Hydro Certification might be expired.2. Cylinders 125 cu.ft. and above may be stolen rentals (not “owner's” cylinder).3. Cylinder 125 cu.ft. and above is hard to move/lift by 1 person.It left me only with 2 choices 40 and 80 cu.ft. I will use 80 cu.ft example.New 80 cu.ft. Oxygen cylinder will cost you about $200. Refill about $30-40.There is different Oxygen flow rate for pre-heating and cutting. I will use cutting flow rate.Some numbers for Harris 6290 (Acetylene) vs. 6290-NX (propane) cutting tip for up to 3/8” steel (#00 tip or #64 drill size)6290 size 00 – O2 45-50 SCFM, fuel 10-15 SCFM6290NX size 00 – O2 65-75 SCFM, fuel 7.5 SCFMPropane tip uses more oxygen. 80 cu.ft. cylinder should last (with 75 SCFM flow) slightly more than 1 hour of cutting time.There some videos (skip advertisement part of the video) and notice the difference between Injector type torch (for propane only) and regular torch using only propane tip:Injector type torch vs regular one (both using propane)http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Expert-Advice/videos/injector-altfuel-vs-equal-pressure-alt-fuel.aspxInjector torch using Propane vs regular torch using Acetylene (cost estimate looks a bit off)http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Expert-Advice/videos/injector-altfuel-vs-equal-pressure-acetylene.aspx|
33980|33977|2017-03-04 19:49:39|brentswain38|Re: Hello Canada, Finland calling...|I'll check my drawings . Don't have them with me at the moment.Just laying the deck panels out on the ground,in the relative positions where they go in the hull, sometimes clarifies things.|
33981|33976|2017-03-05 12:37:54|wild_explorer|Re: Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting|Brent, could you give more details how you made "refill station"? It is a good idea to be able to refill small Oxy tank (size 40 or 80) on the field from big one (size 300 ?)---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :I just drilled and taped into a 1 1/4 inch bronze prop shaft , ditto a bleed screw hole , and screwed them in . Now I can mostly fill an oxy tank from another bigger one, any time.|
33982|33976|2017-03-05 18:16:26|brentswain38|Re: Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting|I simply bought the end fittings from a welding supply. They had 1/4 inch standard male pipe threads on the ends. I drilled and taped the holes for a 1/4 inch standard pipe thread in the ends of a 6 inch piece of 1 1/4 inch prop shaft, making sure the hole went right thu, and screwed them in, with lots of teflon tape. I drilled a hole in the side for the bleed screw and tapped it for a 1/4 inch bolt, the far end being a much smaller hole. I ground the end of the bolt down to a needle point.to go in the smaller, bleed hole, and tefloned the bolt thread.The bleed screw  leaks a tiny bit ,but not a significant amount.  Take them apart and make sure there are no drill cuttings inside. Make sure there is no oil ,as oil will explode under oxygen pressure .Laquer thinner will remove it, and evaporate completely given a bit of time. Without the ability to bleed the pressure off  when the tanks are equalized, you would never get the rig  undone.You  69 the tanks alongside one another, hook them up,   open  the empty tank valve and open the full one slightly,  until you can hear it stop, then close them, open the bleed screw, then undo them.|
33983|33976|2017-03-06 12:57:10|wild_explorer|Re: Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting|Thanks Brent!I took a look what it cost to refill Oxy-cylinder.40 and 80 CF refill cost about $32 (same for 40CF as 80CF)300CF refill cost $50So, it is much cheaper to rent 300CF and refill your own 40CF (or 80CF) cylinder by yourself. Using ALL safety precautions of cause. Just need to remember that you are dealing with 2000-2500 PSI of pressure. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <brentswain38@...> wrote :I simply bought the end fittings from a welding supply. They had 1/4 inch standard male pipe threads on the ends. I drilled and taped the holes for a 1/4 inch standard pipe thread in the ends of a 6 inch piece of 1 1/4 inch prop shaft, making sure the hole went right thu, and screwed them in, with lots of teflon tape. I drilled a hole in the side for the bleed screw and tapped it for a 1/4 inch bolt, the far end being a much smaller hole. I ground the end of the bolt down to a needle point.to go in the smaller, bleed hole, and tefloned the bolt thread.The bleed screw  leaks a tiny bit ,but not a significant amount.  Take them apart and make sure there are no drill cuttings inside. Make sure there is no oil ,as oil will explode under oxygen pressure .Laquer thinner will remove it, and evaporate completely given a bit of time. Without the ability to bleed the pressure off  when the tanks are equalized, you would never get the rig  undone.You  69 the tanks alongside one another, hook them up,   open  the empty tank valve and open the full one slightly,  until you can hear it stop, then close them, open the bleed screw, then undo them.|
33984|33976|2017-03-07 15:55:37|wild_explorer|Re: Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting|Does anyone know what could be used to clean insides of the torch (handle and cutting attachment)?Handle and Attachment I got, have some black residue inside (soot?)  probably due to its usage with Acetylene. May be because of backfires? So I need to clean it.Cleaning solution need to be compatible with Oxygen equipment cleaning procedures (carb and brake cleaners, air from compressor, etc. are NOT compatible). What I found so far, that Ethyl Alcohol (EA, medical), hot water and steam is safe for Oxy service. Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA, rubbing) is not recommended - it leaves residue (I can confirm it).Any other approved and proven to be safe (for the parts and operator) cleaning solutions?|
33985|33977|2017-03-08 17:11:41|brentswain38|Re: Hello Canada, Finland calling...|The dimensions I have from the bow back are   2ft 5 3/4 inch (looks suspect . Should be a smaller number. Check it out with  a scale . Just fair it in )2 ft 3 inches2 ft 5 1/2 2ft6 1/2 2 ft 6 2 ft 2 3/4 all  from the straight edge Then 2 ft 62 ft 5 1/4 2 ft  4 2 ft 1 1/2 1 ft 10 1/2 Canadian tape measures often have metric alongside imperial equivalents.  |
33986|33976|2017-03-08 17:13:40|brentswain38|Re: Oxy-Propane (LPG) cutting|Soap and hot water should work.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <williswildest@...> wrote :Does anyone know what could be used to clean insides of the torch (handle and cutting attachment)?Handle and Attachment I got, have some black residue inside (soot?) probably due to its usage with Acetylene. May be because of backfires? So I need to clean it.Cleaning solution need to be compatible with Oxygen equipment cleaning procedures (carb and brake cleaners, air from compressor, etc. are NOT compatible). What I found so far, that Ethyl Alcohol (EA, medical), hot water and steam is safe for Oxy service. Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA, rubbing) is not recommended - it leaves residue (I can confirm it).Any other approved and proven to be safe (for the parts and operator) cleaning solutions?|
33987|33977|2017-03-08 19:30:42|Aaron|Re: Hello Canada, Finland calling...|Brent Are starting at the for deck working aft in measurements then in the forward deck plate going from 2'-6" to 2'-2-3/4"Was where I had a problem  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android     On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 4:11 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:                                       The dimensions I have from the bow back are   2ft 5 3/4 inch (looks suspect . Should be a smaller number. Check it out with  a scale . Just fair it in )2 ft 3 inches2 ft 5 1/2 2ft6 1/2 2 ft 6 2 ft 2 3/4 all  from the straight edge Then 2 ft 62 ft 5 1/4 2 ft  4 2 ft 1 1/2 1 ft 10 1/2 Canadian tape measures often have metric alongside imperial equivalents.                             #ygrps-yiv-305906253 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685 --   #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-305906253 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}  #ygrps-yiv-305906253 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}  #ygrps-yiv-305906253 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685 #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-305906253yiv3602541685ads { margin-bottom:10px;}  #ygrps-yiv-305906253 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33988|33988|2017-03-09 13:07:50|Par Ragnar|Bella Via.|Hey! Can someone get a hold of Bella Via and have them contact me? Tnx for any help Par|
33989|33988|2017-03-10 18:25:00|brentswain38|Re: Bella Via.|svbellavia@...---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <ragnarpar@...> wrote :Hey! Can someone get a hold of Bella Via and have them contact me? Tnx for any help Par|
33990|33977|2017-03-10 18:33:00|brentswain38|Re: Hello Canada, Finland calling...|Looks like 2 ft 5 1/4 should be about right.Let me know how that  works out for you.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <akenai@...> wrote :Brent Are starting at the for deck working aft in measurements then in the forward deck plate going from 2'-6" to 2'-2-3/4"Was where I had a problem  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android  On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 4:11 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats]<origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  The dimensions I have from the bow back are   2ft 5 3/4 inch (looks suspect . Should be a smaller number. Check it out with  a scale . 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33991|32236|2017-03-14 17:20:58|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I have some questions about Anchor Winch (using wire rope on a drum). Stephen put together some material list in his original message https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/conversations/messages/32254It has 2" diameter drum core, 12" diameter side plates, ratchet wheel 10" outside diameter (18 tooth) with about 6" inside diameter. Brent's book (at least mine) does not have drum diameter.Brent is using 1/2" (0.5") diameter wire rope on his 31 footer (and 1/4" spare wire rope).I took a look what are the requirements for sheaves and drums need to be when used with wire ropes. It uses minimum Sheave-to-Rope Diameter Ratio = D/d.D - sheave or drum diameterd - rope diameterThis ratio is different for different wire ropes (more stiff needs higher ratio up to 42 minimum), but "rule of thumb", it should not be less than 20-22 (for most flexible wire rope).So, for most flexible 1/2" wire rope, Drum diameter need to be Minimum 20=D/0.5 => D=20*0.5 => 10"Minimum Drum Diameter for 1/4" wire rope is 5"In this case, 2" drum diameter is good only for 20=2/x => x=2/20=0.1" or 2.5mm (1/10") diameter of most flexible wire rope.Does it look correct?Again, Minimum Ratio = 20 is for most flexible wire rope, and can go as high as 42 for more stiff wire rope. Suggested Ratio is between 32 to 72.|
33992|32236|2017-03-15 18:40:26|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Paul has been using 1/4 inch galvanized wire 7X19 for many years . I have been using it for halyards, for decades, over a 3 inch sheave ,on which they last 10 years  . Put one on in Tonga and sailed home with it .It lasted ten years .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <williswildest@...> wrote :I have some questions about Anchor Winch (using wire rope on a drum). Stephen put together some material list in his original message https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/conversations/messages/32254It has 2" diameter drum core, 12" diameter side plates, ratchet wheel 10" outside diameter (18 tooth) with about 6" inside diameter. Brent's book (at least mine) does not have drum diameter.Brent is using 1/2" (0.5") diameter wire rope on his 31 footer (and 1/4" spare wire rope).I took a look what are the requirements for sheaves and drums need to be when used with wire ropes. It uses minimum Sheave-to-Rope Diameter Ratio = D/d.D - sheave or drum diameterd - rope diameterThis ratio is different for different wire ropes (more stiff needs higher ratio up to 42 minimum), but "rule of thumb", it should not be less than 20-22 (for most flexible wire rope).So, for most flexible 1/2" wire rope, Drum diameter need to be Minimum 20=D/0.5 => D=20*0.5 => 10"Minimum Drum Diameter for 1/4" wire rope is 5"In this case, 2" drum diameter is good only for 20=2/x => x=2/20=0.1" or 2.5mm (1/10") diameter of most flexible wire rope.Does it look correct?Again, Minimum Ratio = 20 is for most flexible wire rope, and can go as high as 42 for more stiff wire rope. Suggested Ratio is between 32 to 72.|
33993|33993|2017-03-15 18:40:51|jphleba|30 ft rigging questions|Hello all! I am new to the group and just ordered a copy of <u>A Heretic's Guide</u> and am awaiting shipment. I am retrofitting a vessel, and you folks seem to see the advantage of using industry sourced materials. I am looking to rig a 30 ft 13,000 lbs rawson 30 pilot house. 36ft tall mast, sloop 1 set of spreaders. fore, aft, and main lower shrouds.  I wish to build the rig strong enough to handle a capsize if it where to happen. If the god's favor us long distance cruising will be in the future. I was considering using 1x7 5/16 in high tensile galvanized logging wire rope, 5/8 crosby group turnbuckles, and poured fittings. I have no clue what the original rig was, and I am pretty sure that I may have 7x19 that is starting to rust. Is 5/16 in galv 1x7 over kill for my boat? If I can safely get away with 1/4 in 1x7 galv I would save weight aloft and quite a few dollars. I don't have a welder, so has anyone using commercially available sockets with the 1x7? Thanks for all the help, I hope the book has lots of good practical outfitting advice.|
33994|33993|2017-03-15 18:47:34|brentswain38|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|That is exactly what I have been using for decades on my 31 footer, no problem. Check the difference in weight between the 5/16thand 1/4 inch for the whole rig , centred less than half way up. It will surprise you how little  the difference is. My book shows you how to build your own poured sockets, for a fraction the cost of buying them. Vinegar wash and painting the shrouds helps a lot.We  have bought that rigging wire in a scrapyard, enough to rig a 36 for $23.Make sure you get the high tensile, 11,500 lbs tensile, strength ( sch 180) .It is springy. The low tensile bends like lead ,and is roughly 1/3rd the strength,---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, <jphleba@...> wrote :Hello all! I am new to the group and just ordered a copy of <u>A Heretic's Guide</u> and am awaiting shipment. I am retrofitting a vessel, and you folks seem to see the advantage of using industry sourced materials. I am looking to rig a 30 ft 13,000 lbs rawson 30 pilot house. 36ft tall mast, sloop 1 set of spreaders. fore, aft, and main lower shrouds.  I wish to build the rig strong enough to handle a capsize if it where to happen. If the god's favor us long distance cruising will be in the future. I was considering using 1x7 5/16 in high tensile galvanized logging wire rope, 5/8 crosby group turnbuckles, and poured fittings. I have no clue what the original rig was, and I am pretty sure that I may have 7x19 that is starting to rust. Is 5/16 in galv 1x7 over kill for my boat? If I can safely get away with 1/4 in 1x7 galv I would save weight aloft and quite a few dollars. I don't have a welder, so has anyone using commercially available sockets with the 1x7? Thanks for all the help, I hope the book has lots of good practical outfitting advice.|