34001|32236|2017-03-16 09:52:50|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I originally used 1/4 cable on my anchor winch with  nicropress fittings.   It snapped in Fanning Lagoon when the eye got caught in some coral in a vicious chop.   The boat motion was violent with books flying out of the shelves.  The forces must have been huge.  It only took about 3 big yanks to snap the cable.  I think it failed right where it went into the nicropress splice.  The cable was probably kinked hard over.After that experience, I switched to using 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch cable with a long and soft fisherman's splice for an eye.   I actually like the extra weight of the larger cable.  The eye is wrapped in heat shrink and tape and remains flexible with no hard spots for any kink to occur.  This setup has never been a problem.   I found that the cheapest galv cable with the hemp or fiber core is best.  Grease it well and it will last longer. The fiber core absorbs some of the grease so the cable lasts longer and it is a very loose lay so easy to splice.My drum is larger than the plans and hydraulically driven.  It is surprising how often you end up anchoring in water 75 feet or deeper.  I can just hold about 300 feet of cable and 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain.  This makes it easy for me to anchor in water 100 feet deep.  My drum is 15 inch diameter and 16 inches long.  I built up the center of the winch with blocks of wood to make up about a 5 or 6 inch drum diameter when I switched to the bigger cable.   The tight bend is not a problem since the wire will be replaced for corrosion far before it fails from fatigue. I always use a snubber with a nylon line to a rolling hitch (Prusik loop) knot.  It normally grips the cable well and with the ability to still easily untie later.  If the cable has been recently greased I use a few extra wraps.I get 2 or 3 years with full time use in the tropics.  In a colder climate with lots of rain, you will get more.  Oddly enough, I found many people didn't get much more use out of the chain.  The galvanizing doesn't last and it rusts quickly in their chain locker.    Chain can be hard to find or very expensive if you are in remote areas.   Galv cable is commonly used by farmers and industry so much cheaper and readily available.   Sometimes cruisers sell their old chain because it won't fit their new anchor windlass.  With a drum, you don't have that concern and can use any kind of chain available.Cheers, Paul| 34002|32236|2017-03-16 10:56:27|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I originally used 1/4 cable on my anchor winch with  nicropress fittings.   It snapped in Fanning Lagoon when the eye got caught in some coral in a vicious chop.   The boat motion was violent with books flying out of the shelves.  The forces must have been huge.  It only took about 3 big yanks to snap the cable.  I think it failed right where it went into the nicropress splice.  The cable was probably kinked hard over.After that experience, I switched to using 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch cable with a long and soft fisherman's splice for an eye.   I actually like the extra weight.  The eye is strong and flexible.  This setup has never been a problem.   I found that the cheapest galv cable with the hemp or fiber core is best.  Grease it well and it will last longer. The fiber core absorbs some of the grease so the cable lasts longer and it is a very loose lay so easy to splice.My drum is larger than the plans and hydraulically driven.  It is surprising how often you end up anchoring in water 75 feet or deeper.  I can just hold about 300 feet of cable and 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain.  This makes it easy for me to anchor in water 100 feet deep.  My drum is 15 inch diameter and 16 inches long.  I built up the center of the winch with blocks of wood to make up about a 5 or 6 inch drum diameter when I switched to the bigger cable.   The tight bend is not a problem since the wire will be replaced for corrosion far before it fails from fatigue.   I always use a snubber with a nylon line to a rolling hitch (Prusik loop) knot.  It normally grips the cable well and with the ability to still easily untie later.  If the cable has been recently greased I use a few extra wraps.I get 2 or 3 years with full time use in the tropics.  In a colder climate with lots of rain, you will get more.  Oddly enough, I found many people didn't get much more use out of the chain.  The galvanizing doesn't last and it rusts quickly in their chain locker.    Chain can be hard to find or very expensive if you are in remote areas.   Galv cable is commonly used by farmers and industry so much cheaper and readily available.   Sometimes cruisers sell their old chain because it won't fit their new anchor windlass.  With a drum, you don't have that concern and can use any kind of chain available.Cheers, Paul| 34003|32236|2017-03-16 14:15:16|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Thanks for the feedback Paul. Great post!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I originally used 1/4 cable on my anchor winch with  nicropress fittings.   It snapped in Fanning Lagoon when the eye got caught in some coral in a vicious chop.   The boat motion was violent with books flying out of the shelves.  The forces must have been huge.  It only took about 3 big yanks to snap the cable.  I think it failed right where it went into the nicropress splice.  The cable was probably kinked hard over.After that experience, I switched to using 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch cable with a long and soft fisherman's splice for an eye.   I actually like the extra weight.  The eye is strong and flexible.  This setup has never been a problem.   I found that the cheapest galv cable with the hemp or fiber core is best.  Grease it well and it will last longer. The fiber core absorbs some of the grease so the cable lasts longer and it is a very loose lay so easy to splice.My drum is larger than the plans and hydraulically driven.  It is surprising how often you end up anchoring in water 75 feet or deeper.  I can just hold about 300 feet of cable and 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain.  This makes it easy for me to anchor in water 100 feet deep.  My drum is 15 inch diameter and 16 inches long.  I built up the center of the winch with blocks of wood to make up about a 5 or 6 inch drum diameter when I switched to the bigger cable.   The tight bend is not a problem since the wire will be replaced for corrosion far before it fails from fatigue.   I always use a snubber with a nylon line to a rolling hitch (Prusik loop) knot.  It normally grips the cable well and with the ability to still easily untie later.  If the cable has been recently greased I use a few extra wraps.I get 2 or 3 years with full time use in the tropics.  In a colder climate with lots of rain, you will get more.  Oddly enough, I found many people didn't get much more use out of the chain.  The galvanizing doesn't last and it rusts quickly in their chain locker.    Chain can be hard to find or very expensive if you are in remote areas.   Galv cable is commonly used by farmers and industry so much cheaper and readily available.   Sometimes cruisers sell their old chain because it won't fit their new anchor windlass.  With a drum, you don't have that concern and can use any kind of chain available.Cheers, Paul| 34004|32236|2017-03-16 19:59:09|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Paul, what is your Winch drum Core diameter now for 1/2" cable?You mentioned that you have increased Core diameter with wood blocks. Is it now 5 or 6" from original 2" diameter? How did you secure wooden blocks?| 34005|32236|2017-03-16 21:28:42|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I originally used 1/4 cable on my anchor winch with  nicropress fittings.   It snapped in Fanning Lagoon when the eye got caught in some coral in a vicious chop.   The boat motion was violent with books flying out of the shelves.  The forces must have been huge.  It only took about 3 big yanks to snap the cable.  I think it failed right where it went into the nicropress splice.  The cable was probably kinked hard over.After that experience, I switched to using 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch cable with a long and soft fisherman's splice for an eye.   I actually like the extra weight of the larger cable.  The eye is wrapped in heat shrink and tape and remains strong but flexible with no hard spots for any kink to occur.  This setup has never been a problem.   I found that the cheapest galv cable with the hemp or fiber core is best.  Grease it well and it will last longer. The fiber core absorbs some of the grease so the cable lasts longer and it is a very loose lay so easy to splice.My drum is larger than the plans and hydraulically driven.  It is surprising how often you end up anchoring in water 75 feet or deeper.  I can just hold about 300 feet of cable and 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain.  This makes it easy for me to anchor in water 100 feet deep.  My drum is 15 inch diameter and 16 inches long.  I built up the center of the winch with blocks of wood to make up about a 5 or 6 inch drum diameter when I switched to the bigger cable.   The tight bend is not a problem since the wire will be replaced for corrosion far before it fails from fatigue.  I always use a snubber with a nylon line to a rolling hitch (Prusik loop) knot.  It normally grips the cable well and with the ability to still easily untie later.  If the cable has been recently greased I use a few extra wraps.I get 2 or 3 years with full time use in the tropics.  In a colder climate with lots of rain, you will get more.  Oddly enough, I found many people didn't get much more use out of the chain.  The galvanizing doesn't last and it rusts quickly in their chain locker.    Chain can be hard to find or very expensive if you are in remote areas.   Galv cable is commonly used by farmers and industry so much cheaper and readily available.   Sometimes cruisers sell their old chain because it won't fit their new anchor windlass.  With a drum, you don't have that concern and can use any kind of chain available.Cheers, Paul| 34006|32236|2017-03-16 22:11:30|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|My main question is about Drum Core diameter... 2" sch 40 pipe as a Drum Core seems too small.I went to the store, and even smallest size rope on the spool has at least 4" Drum Core. Even duct tape is wrapped around 4" diameter core.What is the main reason to have 2" diameter drum's core on a winch?I did a little research what is smallest D/d ratio is allowed for industrial winches. Absolute minimum is 15 (never should be less), minimum is 18.It is possible to use smaller diameter (how it is done on cheap cable pullers), but it just does not work well. I have 4t (claimed) cable puller, with about 2" drum core, but it frequently jams cable on a drum.I checked Minimum Break Load (MBL) for different type of chains and cables. Anyway... Safe Working Load (SWL) is 25% for both. Test proof is 40-50% of MBL. Usually, MBL should not be less than displacement of the loaded boat.I will skip chains. As I understand, galvanized 7x19 cable  sometimes called as "aircraft cable". Closest to it is galvanized 6x19 class cable (with fiber core).7x19 Galvanized Cable MBL1/4 - 3.1t3/8 - 6.5t7/16 - 8t6x19 Galvanized Cable with fiber core MBL1/4 - 3t3/8 - 6.7t7/16 - 9t1/2 - 11.8TSo, it looks like bare minimum for 40 footer (12t displacement) is 1/2" cable. With absolute Min D/d=15, winch core diameter need to be at least 7.5". I do not think that increasing diameter of winch drum's core from 2" to 7.5" will make a big difference in the total weight of the winch with cable.1/2" 6x19 cable weight is 0.42 Lb/ft (42 Lb per 100 ft).Again, I am  sure it is possible to use smaller diameter than Minimum recommended, the question is why?| 34007|32236|2017-03-16 22:45:35|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|It is now 6 inch.   5 inch diameter would probably be fine.   The wooden blocks are pie shaped hardwood wedges that fit tightly on the drum against the center tube.   You could probably use any relatively hard wood that is resistant to rot.  They are just held by each end with some wood screws.   I thought they might twist but it only takes a few wraps of  wire to help hold them tight.   Sorry for all the multiple posts.....I am currently on the boat and have very poor internet.   Effing yahoo seems to hold my posts in limbo and won't tell me when a post goes out.   Every time I hit send, nothing seems to happen.   Cheers.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Paul, what is your Winch drum Core diameter now for 1/2" cable?You mentioned that you have increased Core diameter with wood blocks. Is it now 5 or 6" from original 2" diameter? How did you secure wooden blocks?| 34008|32236|2017-03-16 22:54:37|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|The reason for using 2 inch is so that you can hold enough nylon rope on the drum if you were using an all rope rode.    If I was doing it all again, I would consider going to a 5 or 6 inch pipe drum hub since I never use a rope rode.  I have no idea what it would cost....6 inch SS pipe might be expensive and hard to find in short lengths.   An heavyily built aluminum winch is also a possibility if you had access to a good Tig or Mig welder.  You would have to use very heavy plate and pipe.....an anchor winch takes a lot of force and abuse.| 34009|32236|2017-03-16 23:20:28|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|You are getting too hung up on theory.    Compare the strength of the cable to the chain.   3/8 inch chain is commonly used on 45 foot boats.   Working load limit on it is only 2650 pounds.   A 1/2 inch shackle is only about a 2 ton load limit.  I have bent pins on them which is why I try to use 5/8 inch shackles.   I rode out some horrendous storms in Hawaii using 1/4 inch cable.    It was only when I got to Fanning that I snapped it.   As I wrote before it was really the cable termination that failed.   3/8 inch or 1/2 cable is far stronger than 1/4 inch and more strength than you really need.   The limiting factor in practice is the type of fittings you use on the eyes and the amount of corrosion.  If you use a long and soft fisherman splice, the eye shouldn't fail.   The cable won't break in 2 or 3 years from being bent around a 5 or 6 inch radius.   If you ever see strands or snags sticking out, it is time to replace it.   The tighter diameter may not be ideal for the cable but the size of the winch is a compromise.   Go to a drum too large and it will stick up high above the deck and look ugly.  Cheers.| 34010|32236|2017-03-17 02:00:55|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I noticed that that boat's length is misleading sometimes. The same as a chain size.Boat length assumes some basic boat's displacement. Strength of the chain depends on a grade. Usually, only Working Load Limit (WLL) or Safe Working Limit (SWL) is given for the chain - which is 25% of Minimum Breaking Strength (MBS).Example of Anchor chain size determination:Boat Length: Boat Weight: Chain Diameter:26 to 30 feet ----- 5,000 lbs. ----- 1/4 -inch31 to 35 feet ----- 10,000 lbs. ----- 5/16-inch36 to 40 feet ----- 15,000 lbs. ----- 3/8-inch41 to 45 feet ----- 20,000 lbs. ----- 7/16-inch46 to 50 feet ----- 30,000 lbs. ----- 1/2-inch51 to 60 feet ----- 50,000 lbs. ----- 9/16-inch3/8" strength depending on a grade;Grade 30 galvanized - 1.8t (2,650Lb) SWL - 7.2t MBSGrade 40/43 galvanized - 2.4t SWL - 9.6t MBSGrade 70 - 3t SWL - 12t MBSThat why I think that boat displacement is more reasonable to use (instead of boat length).If assume that 40ft boat has 15,000 lbs (6.8t) displacement - even 3/8" Grade 30 chain might work (it has MBS 7.2t). So, 3/8" chain with 7.2t MBS for 6.8t load (boat) is being used.Seems like practical approach to me. Easy to remember how to size a chain or wire rope (cable).Braking strength >= Boat displacement.If only WLL/SWL is available - multiply it by 4. MBL=SWL x 4For wire ropes (or cables) usually MBS is given. WLL/SWL is not available (depends on application: safety factors are from 4 to 10).This is just what I got so far. Please, feel free to correct me.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :You are getting too hung up on theory.    Compare the strength of the cable to the chain.   3/8 inch chain is commonly used on 45 foot boats.   Working load limit on it is only 2650 pounds.   A 1/2 inch shackle is only about a 2 ton load limit.  I have bent pins on them which is why I try to use 5/8 inch shackles.   | 34011|32236|2017-03-17 02:26:53|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|This is another great reason to use cable.   A lot of larger boats can't stand the thought of having 300 feet of heavy chain in their anchor locker so tend to go too light.   7/16 inch chain can be harder to find.  You can go to high test chain but you will need to get the pocket book out.One of the reasons to go with heavier cable is the galvanizing is more robust.   I found 1/4  inch galv cable has a very light flash of zinc and doesn't last very long.  I posted this earlier but it never showed up..... If I am double posting you can blame yahoo :)Cheers, Paul| 34012|32236|2017-03-17 02:37:12|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Slightly off topic but this is one of the best websites on anchoring I have seen....http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/| 34013|32236|2017-03-17 02:47:01|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Yep, SS availability in a large diameter might be a problem.I was thinking about possibility to use 80 CF steel Scuba tank as a Drum Core. It should have about 7" OD with 0.18" wall. Sometimes it could be found cheap (old ones without hydro inspection). The main problem with 2" pipe - it is hard to make manual band brake for it.About wire rope capacity - increasing core diameter will require increase diameter of the side plate. But it will be less than core diameter increase (it takes more rope length on the upper layer for each revolution than on a first layer). Just need to calculate what the difference in dimensions is for the same capacity.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The reason for using 2 inch is so that you can hold enough nylon rope on the drum if you were using an all rope rode.    If I was doing it all again, I would consider going to a 5 or 6 inch pipe drum hub since I never use a rope rode.  I have no idea what it would cost....6 inch SS pipe might be expensive and hard to find in short lengths.   An heavyily built aluminum winch is also a possibility if you had access to a good Tig or Mig welder.  You would have to use very heavy plate and pipe.....an anchor winch takes a lot of force and abuse.| 34014|32236|2017-03-17 03:12:32|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I came up with several ideas for a drum brake.   None of them were satisfactory.   I found all I really needed was a wooden stick.   I just jam it between the edge of the drum and the winch frame.  I keep it tied to the winch via a short line so it is always ready to use.   A larger boat with larger anchors might need something more complicated but for my 36 footer it works well.| 34015|32236|2017-03-17 19:12:38|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I like having a bit of floating line on the end, in case I have to slip my anchor rode to get out quickly from a lee shore( like in Cabo in 82) Cable would be too hard to cut or release,and wouldn't float ,for a  later pick up .A lot of boats got in trouble there, because they couldn't let go their anchor rodes quickly enough , when dragging. (All chain , no rope on the end,.)| 34016|32236|2017-03-17 19:30:01|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I found stainless  wire breaks a lot of strands in a year of full time use ,not problem with galvanized. It has shorter life than galv, for that reason.Ditto halyards.| 34017|32236|2017-03-17 19:33:17|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|In nearly 40 years of using my drum winch I have found no need whatever for a brake.| 34018|32236|2017-03-17 22:41:58|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I should add that one of the reason of using larger diameter cable is that the galvanizing seems to be heavier.  1/4 inch cable is often just a quick and very thin flash of zinc and doesn't last at all.   I found the larger diameter cable also much easier to splice.| 34019|32236|2017-03-18 01:16:03|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I did some estimate what will be the difference in Flange diameter if using 7" barrel diameter instead of 2" for a winch with 16" long barrel (traverse).I used 1/2" wire cable for calculation and drum capacity 500 ft.2" diameter barrel, 12" diameter flange.7" diameter barrel, 13.6" diameter flange.So, going from 2" to 7" diameter barrel, will increase Flange diameter only 1.6" (less than 2" increase)1/2" cable, 1000 ft2" barrel, 16.6" flange7" barrel, 17.9" flangeThe difference in Flange diameter is negligible. And 4"-5" increase in Flange diameter doubles the capacity of the winch.I hope, I got it right. Let me know if my estimate is incorrect.| 34020|32236|2017-03-18 12:59:55|jhess314|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Brent,How do you control the speed that your cable rode pays out?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :In nearly 40 years of using my drum winch I have found no need whatever for a brake.| 34021|32236|2017-03-18 17:45:33|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I just put my foot on the drum to prevent an overide when the anchor hits bottom. Then it slows right down, and becomes very controlable. Some times I just kick the return pawl down, and stop it instantly.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,How do you control the speed that your cable rode pays out?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :In nearly 40 years of using my drum winch I have found no need whatever for a brake.| 34022|32236|2017-03-19 00:44:21|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Back to material list.As I understand,drum axle is 1" sch40 pipe (1.31" OD),drum axle mounts are 1-1/4" sch40 pipe (1.38" ID)Questions:1. 1.31" and 1.38" is a tight fit. Does it need to have "seamless" 1-1/4" pipe for it? Welded pipe usually has a welding bump inside.2. Do drum axle mounts are used as an axle bearings as well?3. Do drum side plates go over drum axle and get welded to it?4. Does drum core (2" sch40) get welded to the side plates?5. Ratchet wheel is welded to what?Does anyone have a close up pictures of the winch (where all details of the winch could be marked and labeled to make it like 3D material list)?6. Is it critical to have 18 tooth ratchet wheel or might it has less (and different profile - square/rectangular type).7. If to go for a bigger drum core, what arrangement would you suggest (the same as 2", drum core through winch base, ratchet wheel over drum core, etc)?| 34023|32236|2017-03-19 01:18:34|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Several questions related to floating_rope/cable/chain arrangement, etc.1. It is not recommended to unwind 1-st layer of the cable on a drum - it will screw up winding of the cable later. Usually, first layer of the cable is fixed to a drum core.2. Floating_rope need to be the same diameter and be longer that the depth where anchoring (to be able to float on the surface). Floating rope is softer than cable and is not a good support for upper layers of the cable. Would not it affect laying of the cable on a drum?3. When anchor is up, there is chain on a drum. Chain can be secured with some standard chain locks at the bow. But there is tripping hazard - chain (and cable) goes over the top of the drum. Does it need to have another lock just before the winch to lower chain to the deck level?4. How to secure the drum from clockwise rotation (when anchor is up)? 5. How to secure the cable to the deck when anchor is down?6. How to keep positive tension on the winch side of the cable (to prevent it from unwinding when anchor is down?7. How to avoid tripping hazard of the cable when anchor is down?8. To drop the anchor it is need to release pawls of the winch. What is holding the anchor and how to release it safely and prevent the drum from unwinding without drum brake?| 34024|32236|2017-03-21 16:13:24|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|1 inch sch 40 fits nicely in 1 1/4 inch sch 40 for bearings .I'd leave the  drum axle removeableYes the core gets welded to the side plates, regardless of core size.Doesn't mater how many teeth you have, as long as they  remain big enough.m, wrote :Back to material list.As I understand,drum axle is 1" sch40 pipe (1.31" OD),drum axle mounts are 1-1/4" sch40 pipe (1.38" ID)Questions:1. 1.31" and 1.38" is a tight fit. Does it need to have "seamless" 1-1/4" pipe for it? Welded pipe usually has a welding bump inside.2. Do drum axle mounts are used as an axle bearings as well?3. Do drum side plates go over drum axle and get welded to it?4. Does drum core (2" sch40) get welded to the side plates?5. Ratchet wheel is welded to what?Does anyone have a close up pictures of the winch (where all details of the winch could be marked and labeled to make it like 3D material list)?6. Is it critical to have 18 tooth ratchet wheel or might it has less (and different profile - square/rectangular type).7. If to go for a bigger drum core, what arrangement would you suggest (the same as 2", drum core through winch base, ratchet wheel over drum core, etc)?| 34025|23272|2017-03-22 00:35:41|jaybeecherbay|Re: Stern tube construction|... I drilled and tapped a 24" grease gun hose directly to the stuffing box as you suggested, Now do I pump grease in until it comes out of the bearing?, I plan to leave the stuffing box adjuster nut fairly loose until sea trials, and tighten a bit more once grease leaks out. ... then give her about 1 pump every hour of motoring? Does raw water ever get past the grease and into the tube? The only weak link of this system would be the yellow brass fitting on the grease hose that is tapped into the stuffing box. Or does the grease stay full in the tube and this would never be a problem? I was told by another guy to only use monel or stainless for a grease Zink to prevent a corrosion possibility. Thanks everyone for any more tips. :) J.| 34026|23272|2017-03-22 16:33:09|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|Yes you got it. Fill the stern tube until grease comes out the back. I have had no problem with corrosion on the brass end ,but had to replace the grease hose recently, after  many decades.Some raw water eventually gets past the grease, so give it a few more strokes on the grease pump. I give her a pump every couple of years .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :... I drilled and tapped a 24" grease gun hose directly to the stuffing box as you suggested, Now do I pump grease in until it comes out of the bearing?, I plan to leave the stuffing box adjuster nut fairly loose until sea trials, and tighten a bit more once grease leaks out. ... then give her about 1 pump every hour of motoring? Does raw water ever get past the grease and into the tube? The only weak link of this system would be the yellow brass fitting on the grease hose that is tapped into the stuffing box. Or does the grease stay full in the tube and this would never be a problem? I was told by another guy to only use monel or stainless for a grease Zink to prevent a corrosion possibility. Thanks everyone for any more tips. :) J.| 34027|32236|2017-03-22 17:36:58|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|I am finally back on a good internet connection....see answers below.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Several questions related to floating_rope/cable/chain arrangement, etc.1. It is not recommended to unwind 1-st layer of the cable on a drum - it will screw up winding of the cable later. Usually, first layer of the cable is fixed to a drum core.-I would never wrap steel cable over rope.  It will cut in to the lower wraps and damage or cut the rope.  I have spent a few nasty nights in open roadstead anchorages and lagoons with large waves coming over the bow.   The forces are huge.  I always keep a polyprop anchor rode on a hose real at the stern with a short chain as an emergency anchor or tow line.  The bitter end of the anchor cable has an eye that is attached to the drum with a lashing that can be quickly cut with a knife.   It wouldn't take long to shackle a nylon or polyprop rode on to the end of the wire cable if needed.   2. Floating_rope need to be the same diameter and be longer that the depth where anchoring (to be able to float on the surface). Floating rope is softer than cable and is not a good support for upper layers of the cable. Would not it affect laying of the cable on a drum?-see #1.3. When anchor is up, there is chain on a drum. Chain can be secured with some standard chain locks at the bow. But there is tripping hazard - chain (and cable) goes over the top of the drum. Does it need to have another lock just before the winch to lower chain to the deck level?-this has never been a problem of concern.   If I do a long passage where there might be a lot of sailing to windward, I remove the anchor since I don't like the weight on the bow.   I stow it and wrap all the chain up on the drum.   There are always tripping hazards on a boat.   You will still have the mooring post or cleats to trip over.4. How to secure the drum from clockwise rotation (when anchor is up)?_??? Not sure what you mean.   The drum doesn't  freely spin when the pawls or clutch (in my case) is engaged.  If it does, you can always lash it.  When the anchor is up, it is easy (and best) to secure it tightly against the roller with a lashing or cargo strap so it doesn't bang around when going to windward. 5. How to secure the cable to the deck when anchor is down?- You should have a large mooring bit independent of your anchor winch on your foredeck that can take a large lines of at least 1 inch.  I have a large post with two large cleats.  The post is directly in line with the roller to minimize chafe.  Keep in mind that some moorings use very large lines or have large loops and you also might be tossed a large line from a boat one day.6. How to keep positive tension on the winch side of the cable (to prevent it from unwinding when anchor is down?-I always use a prusik loop rolling hitch to the cable and tie it to a mooring cleat.   The snubber takes the load.   The winch is locked as well in case the snubber lets go.  I also have a series of 1/2 inch holes drilled around the edge of the drum sides.  You can attach a shackle and line and then tie it any way you want.  I have only used this on a couple of occasions since my drum is hydraulically driven and won't freewheel with the clutch engaged.7. How to avoid tripping hazard of the cable when anchor is down?-You will only do it once.   See #3.   8. To drop the anchor it is need to release pawls of the winch. What is holding the anchor and how to release it safely and prevent the drum from unwinding without drum brake?-Just tip the anchor off the roller after releasing the pawl or clutch.   It won't go on it's own.   The first few feet go out slow until the weight of the chain comes in to play.   I always use a stick as a drum brake.   I found it helps keep the speed down and helps keep control if you are using a lot of chain with a large anchor at depth or your boat is moving too fast.    | 34028|34028|2017-03-26 14:03:46|n_crevar|Autopilot|Hi GentlemanI was recently pricing autopilots for Brent’s 36' double keeler..On amazon.ca i found:Raymarine ST1000 Plus for CDN$ 685.25  andSimrad TP22  for CDN$ 1,460.98Both can be controlled through NMEA183 which is my requirementI am not interested in any racing or performance sailing. I need just basic to help me single hand the boat.It would be done through trimtab, so power is not an issue.Any of you had any bad experiences with ST1000+ ?Is it worth paying double for TP22 in your opinion/experience?thanksNash| 34029|34028|2017-03-26 15:57:35|opuspaul|Re: Autopilot|I have experience in the past with Autohelms (Raymarine), and have owned both the old Navico and newer Simrad tillerpilots.Despite what the salesmen say, they are all poorly built.  The direct drive Raymarine wheel pilots are absolute junk.  If I bought a new boat with one, the first thing I would do is get rid of it.  The manufacturers don't care because they make a lot of money on parts.   None of the tillerpilots are waterproof.  I just poured a cup of water out of my friends Raymarine and it was only out in the rain for a few days.   I am hoping I can fix it but it might be ruined.  Even if they are new, I would seal the gaskets with a neutral cure sealant and run them inside a good plastic bag.   Large submarine sandwich or bread bags work well.  Some people mount them below (ideally central away from the steel) and use an engine cable to the trim tab.  You need to work  it out since a tillerpilot has a long stroke and can mash linkages if you haven't set it up properly.Both brands will steer the boat well.   They all use a similar type of flux sensor.  The Raymarine might steer slightly better due to it's software but I have had no problems with the later Simrads.    The advantage to me of the Simrad units is that you can get the schematics online.   I have found old used ones and fixed them up.   The Raymarine units can be expensive to repair. I wouldn't pay double for  the Simrad.   I would probably just buy the one that was the best deal.   I have never found the need to have an NMEA interface.  Try to find a cheap used tillerpilot and keep it as a spare.   You might need it one day.    Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi GentlemanI was recently pricing autopilots for Brent’s 36' double keeler..On amazon.ca i found:Raymarine ST1000 Plus for CDN$ 685.25  andSimrad TP22  for CDN$ 1,460.98Both can be controlled through NMEA183 which is my requirementI am not interested in any racing or performance sailing. I need just basic to help me single hand the boat.It would be done through trimtab, so power is not an issue.Any of you had any bad experiences with ST1000+ ?Is it worth paying double for TP22 in your opinion/experience?thanksNash| 34030|34028|2017-03-26 17:36:28|jaybeecherbay|Re: Autopilot|i bought the st1000.  hooking it up in a few months.. can let you know if it works.  looks like a nice unit, simple and heavy.| 34031|34028|2017-03-26 18:07:52|brentswain38|Re: Autopilot|Priced one of the tiny plastic gears  for an autohelm 800 from the assholes,who are  the only source in the lower mainland.Outrageously expensive,then they wanted a huge extra punishment fee for me not living in the lower mainland, with postage as an excuse.(*Which is under $2)Hate having to deal with  such assholes.| 34032|34028|2017-03-26 18:28:37|opuspaul|Re: Autopilot|There might not be anything special about the gear.  Get the dimensions and try a radio control, hobby shop, amazon or aliexpress.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Priced one of the tiny plastic gears  for an autohelm 800 from the assholes,who are  the only source in the lower mainland.Outrageously expensive,then they wanted a huge extra punishment fee for me not living in the lower mainland, with postage as an excuse.(*Which is under $2)Hate having to deal with  such assholes.| 34033|34033|2017-03-27 11:06:25|jaybeecherbay|tiller..|I have a 2" pipe on the rudder, to be a socket for the 1 1.2" tiller pipe.  do most weld this pipe onto to rudder?  or can i have two or three bolts to connect the tiller. so that it is removable to make removing the rudder and installing it easier?also if I give the tiller a bend to make it a good height for me to stand up and hold, can the direct trim tab linkage work the same?cheersJ| 34034|34033|2017-03-27 15:26:26|opuspaul|Re: tiller..|It is nice to be able to remove the tiller when you are doing work in the cockpit.   I have no connection between my tiller and my windvane or trimtab.   Make the tiller height whatever you want.   I often straddle it and steer with my legs.  If the tiller is too high, this can be a painful process :).   Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have a 2" pipe on the rudder, to be a socket for the 1 1.2" tiller pipe.  do most weld this pipe onto to rudder?  or can i have two or three bolts to connect the tiller. so that it is removable to make removing the rudder and installing it easier?also if I give the tiller a bend to make it a good height for me to stand up and hold, can the direct trim tab linkage work the same?cheersJ| 34035|34033|2017-03-27 17:42:40|brentswain38|Re: tiller..|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You will have to size the 2 inch  pipe down slightly to make it snug on a 1 1/2 inch tiller( 1 7/8th OD) .I zip cut a bit out of one side then clamp it down to  the right diameter, and re-weld it. Welding it to  the top of the rudder  is best. With the proper  angle to the top of the rudder, it will be comfortable both sitting and standing. no need to bend it , if the angle is right.I have a 2" pipe on the rudder, to be a socket for the 1 1.2" tiller pipe.  do most weld this pipe onto to rudder?  or can i have two or three bolts to connect the tiller. so that it is removable to make removing the rudder and installing it easier?also if I give the tiller a bend to make it a good height for me to stand up and hold, can the direct trim tab linkage work the same?cheersJ| 34036|34036|2017-03-27 17:48:25|peter_aqua_8|Is anyone selling a Brent swain ?|Twin keels. 33' ish. BC area. Peter| 34037|33464|2017-03-27 17:49:21|lincrew|Re: Brent Swain 36' For Sale|Hello - I know this has been posted a year ago - but is the boat still for sale? If so pictures please. Thanks. Kind regards | 34038|33993|2017-03-27 17:49:53|jphleba|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|Thanks so much for the input! I just received my copy of your book today, and was delighted to find many answers to my outfitting questions aswell as overjoyed by the roller furling plans. I have been playing with a similar drawing I thought I came up with and so it was relegated "too experimental for now." It is always great to see refined idea's that have been experimented and improved upon before spending hard earned money! I have one question regarding swage fittings. You mention you prefer the stainless ones professionally pressed, and to avoid copper swages even if zinc coated. The book advises to use aluminum if you must go the diy route, and refers to a "farm splice." I am not sure what you are referring to as a farm splice. Do you have a picture that can help me understand or a link you can point me to? I noticed the FAA has a protocol for the use of swage fittings on aircraft which requires 2 furles with a bit of space between them to help mitigate the risk of failure. Is this what you meant by a farm splice? I have seen how ultra light aircraft make their control lines if this is what you were referring to.  Nicropress staff told me to go for the copper with zinc coating, so I sure am glad I got my copy of the guide to straighten me out! My crew is already jokingly referring to it as "the insurance policy" in case we manage to sink our current vessel. This is one of a very select few books that will be vacuum sealed, dry bagged, and kept in the ditch kit just in case when we manage to finally bust free. Thank you! | 34039|34036|2017-03-27 17:53:32|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Is anyone selling a Brent swain ?|Peter, I have a Brent Swain 40 For Sale in Vancouver. 587-437-0291GordSent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2017, at 3:48 PM, peter_aqua_8@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Twin keels. 33' ish. BC area. Peter | 34040|33993|2017-03-27 18:07:34|brentswain38|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|Tried responding to your email, and while I was typing it just disappeared.Thanks for the feedback .Could you re-send it to my yahoo address?brentswain38@... I wouldn't rely on a thin zinc coating to protect galvanized from electrolysis.It wont last long,  especially over copper. I have seen copper ,zinc plated sleeves rust out galv halyards in  a year,  which last me ten years with aluminium sleeves. With sleeves, you should do a molly hogan- farm splice first,  then put two sleeves on each eye. A farm splice is where you separate the strands of 1x7 ,  into 3 and 4 ,then lay them back up going in opposite directions, to make a big eye.  Then you put one sleeve in to hold the thimble in, and another to hold the ends of the strands tidy. Industrial  supplies put stainless sleeves on,  for not all that much money They work very well. With eyes tho, you should epoxy them well, especially the ones on the bottom , where salt spray tends  to drip off ,  and cause far more corrosion than elsewhere---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks so much for the input! I just received my copy of your book today, and was delighted to find many answers to my outfitting questions aswell as overjoyed by the roller furling plans. I have been playing with a similar drawing I thought I came up with and so it was relegated "too experimental for now." It is always great to see refined idea's that have been experimented and improved upon before spending hard earned money! I have one question regarding swage fittings. You mention you prefer the stainless ones professionally pressed, and to avoid copper swages even if zinc coated. The book advises to use aluminum if you must go the diy route, and refers to a "farm splice." I am not sure what you are referring to as a farm splice. Do you have a picture that can help me understand or a link you can point me to? I noticed the FAA has a protocol for the use of swage fittings on aircraft which requires 2 furles with a bit of space between them to help mitigate the risk of failure. Is this what you meant by a farm splice? I have seen how ultra light aircraft make their control lines if this is what you were referring to.  Nicropress staff told me to go for the copper with zinc coating, so I sure am glad I got my copy of the guide to straighten me out! My crew is already jokingly referring to it as "the insurance policy" in case we manage to sink our current vessel. This is one of a very select few books that will be vacuum sealed, dry bagged, and kept in the ditch kit just in case when we manage to finally bust free. Thank you! | 34041|34036|2017-03-27 18:09:48|brentswain38|Re: Is anyone selling a Brent swain ?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :John Ellis had a single keel 36 for sale in Refuge Cove, BCTwin keels. 33' ish. BC area. Peter| 34042|34033|2017-03-27 22:08:34|jaybeecherbay|Re: tiller..|thank you brent and Paul.the rudder was already welded with 2" pipe.  So I welded a sleeve of 1.5" pipe over 1.5" pipe and ground it down a bit to fit snug inside 2"  I got it fitted hammer in tight.  and will just tack the frt and back of it.  can easily be removed if need be..  also is there any spec for tiller length? J.| 34043|34036|2017-03-27 22:11:30|jaybeecherbay|Re: Is anyone selling a Brent swain ?|lyle is selling a 36" foot bilge keel.  the spirit bear. malcom island.| 34044|32236|2017-03-28 12:55:58|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|Brent,It is a nice option to have winch axle (and drum) removable from winch base.Do side plates (1/8" plate) run on drum's axle (1" pipe) directly?Or side plates are welded to 1-1/4" pipe (which goes through both side plates) and axle goes through 1-1/4 pipe (1-1/4 pipe runs on 1" pipe)? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :1 inch sch 40 fits nicely in 1 1/4 inch sch 40 for bearings .I'd leave the  drum axle removeableYes the core gets welded to the side plates, regardless of core size.Doesn't mater how many teeth you have, as long as they  remain big enough.| 34045|32236|2017-03-28 17:02:36|opuspaul|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|On my winch the drum and axle is one assembly.   The frame comes apart from around the drum.   In 25 years, I have only take it apart a few times, to work on the clutch and chain drive for my hydraulic system.  If it is not difficult to make it come apart, I would do so.   This makes changing the bushings easier.| 34046|34033|2017-03-28 17:40:43|brentswain38|Re: tiller..|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Whatever tiller length feels comfortable siting in the cockpit, usually a bit over 4 feet ,is about right.Not critial.thank you brent and Paul.the rudder was already welded with 2" pipe.  So I welded a sleeve of 1.5" pipe over 1.5" pipe and ground it down a bit to fit snug inside 2"  I got it fitted hammer in tight.  and will just tack the frt and back of it.  can easily be removed if need be..  also is there any spec for tiller length? J.| 34047|34047|2017-03-28 17:41:24|lincrew|Bilge Keel Brent Swain 36|I am looking to buy Brent Swain Bilge keel steel or aluminium boat. I know there aren't many of these boats around - but I thought I will just try. Failing that - any other BS36 for sale that anyone is aware of in the world. Thanks. | 34048|33818|2017-03-28 17:42:08|peter_aqua_8|Re: Where did everyone go?|I am looking for a twin keel brent swain.  Is anyone selling direct that you know of?   | 34049|33993|2017-03-28 17:46:00|haidan|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|I couldnt find any stainless swages,  they didnt have any at the rigging place and so I got them to use black iron instead and I painted them. Although it occured to me the other day I could of dipped the finished ends into a molten zinc bath and that would of galvinised and filled any crevices| 34050|32236|2017-03-28 17:49:07|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Materials List|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have done some with plastic bushings, but mine is doing fine after over 30 years, with the one inch ss sch 40 stainless pipe running  on 1 1/4 inch sch 40 ss pipe, stainless on stainless; a definite no-no in machining terms, but what works for decades, works period.It is not exactly doing high RPM's at high  temperatures!Brent,It is a nice option to have winch axle (and drum) removable from winch base.Do side plates (1/8" plate) run on drum's axle (1" pipe) directly?Or side plates are welded to 1-1/4" pipe (which goes through both side plates) and axle goes through 1-1/4 pipe (1-1/4 pipe runs on 1" pipe)? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :1 inch sch 40 fits nicely in 1 1/4 inch sch 40 for bearings .I'd leave the  drum axle removeableYes the core gets welded to the side plates, regardless of core size.Doesn't mater how many teeth you have, as long as they  remain big enough.| 34051|33993|2017-03-28 18:33:22|haidan|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|The galv is way thicker on the 5/16" | 34052|33993|2017-03-28 19:01:37|opuspaul|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|I my be looking in the wrong places but I have never seen any galvanizing on small wire that is any good.  I am not sure but I think it is just a thin zinc electro plate or cold galvanizing on the thinner wire versus a hot dip.  Hot dipped zinc coating is supposed to be about triple the thickness.https://pgjonline.com/2013/03/27/hot-dip-galvanizing-vs-zinc-electroplating/http://www.galvanized-wire.com/galvanizedwire/hot_dipped_galvanized_wire.html---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The galv is way thicker on the 5/16"  | 34053|34036|2017-03-29 16:13:16|Gordon Schnell|Re: Is anyone selling a Brent swain ?|I am selling a Brent Swain 40. Currently on the hard in Vancouver, BC, Canada  â€œgschnell@...”  1-587-437-0291Gord Schnell On Mar 27, 2017, at 8:09 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:lyle is selling a 36" foot bilge keel.  the spirit bear. malcom island.| 34054|33993|2017-03-29 17:41:42|brentswain38|Re: 30 ft rigging questions|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The thicker the strands, the thicker the zinc ,usually.  It comes out much thicker on 1x7, which looks like hot dip galvanized. However, is well worth while washing it with  TSP, then vinegar, then water, letting it dry, and epoxying it. Cold galv spray primer  on well cleaned galv also works well.I my be looking in the wrong places but I have never seen any galvanizing on small wire that is any good.  I am not sure but I think it is just a thin zinc electro plate or cold galvanizing on the thinner wire versus a hot dip.  Hot dipped zinc coating is supposed to be about triple the thickness.https://pgjonline.com/2013/03/27/hot-dip-galvanizing-vs-zinc-electroplating/http://www.galvanized-wire.com/galvanizedwire/hot_dipped_galvanized_wire.html---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The galv is way thicker on the 5/16"  | 34055|29929|2017-03-31 18:01:16|brentswain38|Hotmail screwups|I have been having trouble responding to hotmail emails lately. When I hit "reply" it deletes both  the message and response. So if you have any questions, use my yahoo address .It is far more  reliable  than hotmail. Same address ,just  replace hotmail with yahoo.brentswain38@...No, I am not ignoring you, just can't reply on hotmail anymore.| 34056|29929|2017-03-31 18:12:50|brentswain38|Re: Hotmail screwups|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I just got an email from someone asking if I can help him finish Gord's boat.I am fully retired now and avoid the lower mainland like the plague, but I'm sure Haidan would like to help you get her finished.Haidan@... Tried to send you this, but it disappeared as soon as I tried .I have been having trouble responding to hotmail emails lately. When I hit "reply" it deletes both  the message and response. So if you have any questions, use my yahoo address .It is far more  reliable  than hotmail. Same address ,just  replace hotmail with yahoo.brentswain38@...No, I am not ignoring you, just can't reply on hotmail anymore.| 34057|29929|2017-04-02 16:53:35|peter_aqua_8|Re: Hotmail screwups|Thanks Brent. I will try and get ahold of him. Peter| 34058|34058|2017-04-10 18:22:02|u5clbvlkv4jo72fe4b53bicyiwfzc3pqm2njsi74|Where to buy metal in nanaimo|Hi, it seems like there are a few people building out on the island, can anyone recommend a source of aluminum near nanaimo? I've found the metal supermarket and while I appreciate their full-service business it probably adds to the cost. I don't need service, just aluminum! Are there other options? Thanks!| 34059|34058|2017-04-10 18:31:00|brentswain38|Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo|When a friend mentioned Metal Supermarket to  a normal steel supplier,  the guy said " Take lots of Vaseline!"You want nothing to do with such parasitic  goudges. Don't know much about aluminium suppliers,but we get the aluminium for our furlers  at AJ Forsyth Ltd . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminum yachts in Parksville will know of some good sources.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi, it seems like there are a few people building out on the island, can anyone recommend a source of aluminum near nanaimo? I've found the metal supermarket and while I appreciate their full-service business it probably adds to the cost. I don't need service, just aluminum! Are there other options? Thanks!| 34060|34058|2017-04-11 09:53:33|Shawn Green|Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo|In nanaimo, deal with forsyth. They are Russell metals from Vancouver in disguise. They are located basically across the highway from Vancouver Island university. Other than that, if you bring material from vancouver yourself it is cheaper, but not always practical. | 34061|34058|2017-04-11 20:34:52|garyhlucas|Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo| Brent, Metal Supermarket buys a long piece of expensive material and offers to slice off one inch of it for you.  It then sits in their warehouse until another request comes in.  If you want a full length of a material at a good price so you can get the one inch cheap and store the rest yourself no one will stop you.  I needed to make some aluminum pulleys 6” in diameter.  My choices were a 12’ bar to get two inches, or Metal Supermarket for just two inches.  So don’t disparage a business model that gives you only what you need, and suits the needs of lots of people. Gary H. Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo     When a friend mentioned Metal Supermarket to  a normal steel supplier,  the guy said " Take lots of Vaseline!"You want nothing to do with such parasitic  goudges. Don't know much about aluminium suppliers,but we get the aluminium for our furlers  at AJ Forsyth Ltd . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminum yachts in Parksville will know of some good sources. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi, it seems like there are a few people building out on the island, can anyone recommend a source of aluminum near nanaimo? I've found the metal supermarket and while I appreciate their full-service business it probably adds to the cost. I don't need service, just aluminum! Are there other options? Thanks!| 34062|34058|2017-04-11 20:53:19|Matt Malone|Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo| Yes, Metal Supermarkets and other similar places exist near me.  They have a use.   Not only will they cut you one piece, they will set up their auto-cut machine to cut you 20 or 40 pieces the same, or punch large holes in relatively thick pieces.   I do not have a plasma cutter yet, and drilling big holes in thick pieces is tedious when an automatic machine is available.   But I entirely agree with buying full lengths at bulk steel places if I am going to use most of it or it is generally useful like 1.5-2.5" angle.  However much better is going to the scrap yard and figuring something out from what is available at a fraction of the cost of even bulk steel places.   If I end up changing my mind, I can sell it back to them, not have too much steel laying around in short lengths or odd dimensions that are unlikely to be useful in the future.   So I loose a few dollars on the difference between buy and sell.   I just keep it realistic when buying scrap and don't worry about it.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo     Brent, Metal Supermarket buys a long piece of expensive material and offers to slice off one inch of it for you.  It then sits in their warehouse until another request comes in.  If you want a full length of a material at a good price so you can get the one inch cheap and store the rest yourself no one will stop you.  I needed to make some aluminum pulleys 6” in diameter.  My choices were a 12’ bar to get two inches, or Metal Supermarket for just two inches.  So don’t disparage a business model that gives you only what you need, and suits the needs of lots of people. Gary H. Lucas 609-647-0450 Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo     When a friend mentioned Metal Supermarket to  a normal steel supplier,  the guy said " Take lots of Vaseline!" You want nothing to do with such parasitic  goudges. Don't know much about aluminium suppliers,but we get the aluminium for our furlers  at AJ Forsyth Ltd . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminum yachts in Parksville will know of some good sources. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi, it seems like there are a few people building out on the island, can anyone recommend a source of aluminum near nanaimo? I've found the metal supermarket and while I appreciate their full-service business it probably adds to the cost. I don't need service, just aluminum! Are there other options? Thanks! | 34063|34058|2017-04-15 15:08:20|Trystan Donnelly|Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo|So, is there a scrap metal yard in the Nanaimo area that anyone would recommend for aluminum then? I will try AJ Forsyth in the meantime. Thanks for your suggestions so far! On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, Metal Supermarkets and other similar places exist near me.  They have a use.   Not only will they cut you one piece, they will set up their auto-cut machine to cut you 20 or 40 pieces the same, or punch large holes in relatively thick pieces.   I do not have a plasma cutter yet, and drilling big holes in thick pieces is tedious when an automatic machine is available.   But I entirely agree with buying full lengths at bulk steel places if I am going to use most of it or it is generally useful like 1.5-2.5" angle.  However much better is going to the scrap yard and figuring something out from what is available at a fraction of the cost of even bulk steel places.   If I end up changing my mind, I can sell it back to them, not have too much steel laying around in short lengths or odd dimensions that are unlikely to be useful in the future.   So I loose a few dollars on the difference between buy and sell.   I just keep it realistic when buying scrap and don't worry about it.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo     Brent, Metal Supermarket buys a long piece of expensive material and offers to slice off one inch of it for you.  It then sits in their warehouse until another request comes in.  If you want a full length of a material at a good price so you can get the one inch cheap and store the rest yourself no one will stop you.  I needed to make some aluminum pulleys 6” in diameter.  My choices were a 12’ bar to get two inches, or Metal Supermarket for just two inches.  So don’t disparage a business model that gives you only what you need, and suits the needs of lots of people. Gary H. Lucas 609-647-0450 Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business. blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo     When a friend mentioned Metal Supermarket to  a normal steel supplier,  the guy said " Take lots of Vaseline!" You want nothing to do with such parasitic  goudges. Don't know much about aluminium suppliers,but we get the aluminium for our furlers  at AJ Forsyth Ltd . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminum yachts in Parksville will know of some good sources. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi, it seems like there are a few people building out on the island, can anyone recommend a source of aluminum near nanaimo? I've found the metal supermarket and while I appreciate their full-service business it probably adds to the cost. I don't need service, just aluminum! Are there other options? Thanks! | 34064|34064|2017-04-15 19:26:29|aguysailing|Blast media|Just wondering about the results origamians have had out there for the use of various media when sandblasting a BS 36 to bare metal below the waterline.   One guy I talked with said he would use a "glass media".   Thanks....| 34065|34064|2017-04-15 23:22:31|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Blast media| Here is a link to my sandblasting write-up: https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/conversations/messages/33602 Glass media was pretty slow and seemed wasteful. It pulverized so we could only use it once. If it is hot outside, the decks work well for recycling media. The media collects on the decks and cabin tops, dries out,  and then you are able to just sweep it out your scuppers, through a screen, and directly into a bucket.| 34066|34064|2017-04-15 23:24:55|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Blast media|I just realized you were only talking about below the waterline. | 34067|34064|2017-04-16 01:12:31|opuspaul|Re: Blast media|You should use a blast media of the right size and sharpness to leave the correct blast profile recommended by the paint manufacturer.I would think glass would be very expensive.  Silica sand was once widely used but it is cancerous and therefore restricted.   I don't see any reason to use it now.  I wouldn't use beach sand.  You can use copper slag but there were some theories floating around that it can leave copper residue behind that can cause later problems.  I am not sure on this, it might just be BS.   I would use garnet if you can get it.  It cuts well and is relatively cheap.http://sandblastingabrasives.com/garnet-abrasive-for-blast-cleaning-823.html| 34068|34064|2017-04-16 01:15:39|opuspaul|Re: Blast media|Maybe due to recycling, the price of glass has come down....http://sandblastingabrasives.com/Glass-Abrasive-Blasting-Media-Crushed-Glass.html| 34069|34069|2017-04-16 09:25:08|haidan|Re: Digest Number 5053|For what youre doing it probsbly doesnt matter what you use as long as its not beach sand loaded with salt. The main issue is having dry sand. Not because it does a poor job if it moist but because it clogs the blaster and then youve got to stop and spend a few minutes unclogging it every five minutes of blasting   , id use bags of sand, what ever is avaiable and is fine enough to go through what ever size nozzle youve got on the blaster. If there are any chunks or debris in the medium then it'll clog and slow you down.  Probably you'll use ten bags or so get some extra and return what you dont use. This time of year its unlikely to find sand forfree outside that dry enough to not clog. -------- Original message --------From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: 04/15/2017 6:11 PM (GMT-08:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Digest Number 5053 Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 2 Messages Digest #5053 1a Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo by "Trystan Donnelly" u5clbvlkv4jo72fe4b53bicyiwfzc3pqm2njsi74 2 Blast media by aguysailing Messages 1a Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:08 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Trystan Donnelly" u5clbvlkv4jo72fe4b53bicyiwfzc3pqm2njsi74 So, is there a scrap metal yard in the Nanaimo area that anyone would recommend for aluminum then? I will try AJ Forsyth in the meantime. Thanks for your suggestions so far! On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > Yes, Metal Supermarkets and other similar places exist near me. They have > a use. Not only will they cut you one piece, they will set up their > auto-cut machine to cut you 20 or 40 pieces the same, or punch large holes > in relatively thick pieces. I do not have a plasma cutter yet, and > drilling big holes in thick pieces is tedious when an automatic machine is > available. > > > But I entirely agree with buying full lengths at bulk steel places if I am > going to use most of it or it is generally useful like 1.5-2.5" angle. > > > However much better is going to the scrap yard and figuring something out > from what is available at a fraction of the cost of even bulk steel places. > If I end up changing my mind, I can sell it back to them, not have too > much steel laying around in short lengths or odd dimensions that are > unlikely to be useful in the future. So I loose a few dollars on the > difference between buy and sell. I just keep it realistic when buying > scrap and don't worry about it. > > > Matt > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on > behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] < > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:34 PM > *To:* origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo > > > > Brent, > Metal Supermarket buys a long piece of expensive material and offers to > slice off one inch of it for you. It then sits in their warehouse until > another request comes in. If you want a full length of a material at a > good price so you can get the one inch cheap and store the rest yourself no > one will stop you. I needed to make some aluminum pulleys 6” in diameter. > My choices were a 12’ bar to get two inches, or Metal Supermarket for just > two inches. So don’t disparage a business model that gives you only what > you need, and suits the needs of lots of people. > Gary H. Lucas > 609-647-0450 <(609)%20647-0450> > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > *From:* mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2017 6:30 PM > *To:* origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy metal in nanaimo > > > > When a friend mentioned Metal Supermarket to a normal steel supplier, > the guy said " Take lots of Vaseline!" > You want nothing to do with such parasitic goudges. > Don't know much about aluminium suppliers,but we get the aluminium for our > furlers at AJ Forsyth Ltd . > Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminum yachts in Parksville will know of some good > sources. > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > Hi, it seems like there are a few people building out on the island, can > anyone recommend a source of aluminum near nanaimo? I've found the metal > supermarket and while I appreciate their full-service business it probably > adds to the cost. I don't need service, just aluminum! Are there other > options? Thanks! > > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (6) . Top ^ 2 Blast media Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:26 pm (PDT) . Posted by: aguysailing Just wondering about the results origamians have had out there for the use of various media when sandblasting a BS 36 to bare metal below the waterline. One guy I talked with said he would use a "glass media". Thanks.... Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (1) . Top ^ Visit Your Group New Members 2 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34070|34064|2017-04-16 21:04:55|aguysailing|Re: Blast media|Paul... he states that below the waterline 15 bags glass medium about $20.00 per bag and 5-6 hrs to do it....   Thanks| 34071|34071|2017-04-16 21:22:05|aguysailing|Wearing on throttle|Noticed my throttle lever was slipping.  Tines on the shifter and shifter arm are showing wear.  I thought about drilling a hole through the arm and shifter and holding together with small nut and bolt.   Maybe some kind of contact cement ??   Thanks   I posted pics in a Album under Tines and Throttle ...| 34072|34071|2017-04-16 21:26:24|aguysailing|Re: Wearing on throttle|...the shifter is firmed up against the shifter arm with an allan screw bottom of shifter...| 34073|34064|2017-04-17 18:16:37|opuspaul|Re: Blast media|I used beach sand once and wasn't happy with the results.   It didn't cut nearly as well (I was removing old paint) and left a smoother blast profile.  Haulout charges and blasting charges are very high (especially in a boat yard) so I wouldn't take the risk of using the wrong blast media for the sake of saving a few hundred dollars.    Do it right and it will last 20 or 30 years and save you a lot of money in the long run.| 34074|34064|2017-04-17 22:36:58|aguysailing|Re: Blast media|Good advice Paul... I launched the boat just 11 years ago.  The guy doing the blasting also gave me a good price for spray painting on the Wasser Tar so I said OK.  After the job I noticed the emply Wasser cans had abount an inch or so of sediment in the bottom of the can.  I asked him about it.... he just said sorry about that.  I always thought the below the waterline looked thin and then in past couple of years started to notice lots of pin sized holes seemed to be right to the hull.   Gonna get this done not worry about coupla hundred.| 34075|34064|2017-04-17 23:00:02|opuspaul|Re: Blast media|If you had a problem with pin-holes, you should also make sure you don't have an electrolysis problem.  You should always use an isolation transformer or galvanic isolator if plugged into a dock at a marina.  You should also make sure what zincs you use are well bonded and make sure you aren't over or under zinced.  If you have a really good coating system, you should have a good barrier and shouldn't need many zincs.   I only have one large zinc near the prop and one small one on the rudder.  They last years.    It is seldom discussed but too many zincs can work against you and actually blow the paint off the hull.  It is caused by hydrogen forming and called cathodic disbondment.   If the pin-holes or blisters are worse near the zincs, this is what might be happening.   I sure wish I had know this 25 years ago.  It would probably have saved me an expensive sandblast and haulout.https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/228/cathodic-disbondment---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Good advice Paul... I launched the boat just 11 years ago.  The guy doing the blasting also gave me a good price for spray painting on the Wasser Tar so I said OK.  After the job I noticed the emply Wasser cans had abount an inch or so of sediment in the bottom of the can.  I asked him about it.... he just said sorry about that.  I always thought the below the waterline looked thin and then in past couple of years started to notice lots of pin sized holes seemed to be right to the hull.   Gonna get this done not worry about coupla hundred.| 34076|34076|2017-04-18 13:55:28|aguysailing|BS Ocean Boy 36 New Owner|Brent and "Nash" (new owner of Ocean Boy) just dropped the hook in Comox Harbour (see pics Bottomed Out album) en route to Quatsino once around north end of Vancouver Island ...nasty bit of water awaits.  Good luck guys...  | 34077|34071|2017-04-19 00:16:29|aguysailing|Re: Wearing on throttle|got it... will drill through or perhaps cut a slot for a key similar to prop key on shaft....  but thanks anyway| 34078|34064|2017-04-23 18:26:01|brentswain38|Re: Blast media|With all the paper  labeling in it , recycled glass is not too useful to be re-used as glass. Blasting my be its only practical use.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Maybe due to recycling, the price of glass has come down....http://sandblastingabrasives.com/Glass-Abrasive-Blasting-Media-Crushed-Glass.html| 34079|34069|2017-04-23 18:36:23|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5053|With the amount of rain and the limited swell size around here, beach sand from inland ,or far above high  tide line works fine round here .It has been thoroughly rinsed with our heavy winter rainfalls.Not the case with coral sand in drier hurricane zones.I once blasted a deck with 20-30 grit sand. It went very fast. For the hull we had only 16 grit.That was much, much slower. Profile?Mine was blasted with round steel wheelabrader shot, then primed with cold galvanizing zinc primer, which doesn't come off,  but fills any "profile" completely, making "Profile" completely  irrelevant. No problems in over 32 years| 34080|34069|2017-04-23 18:51:12|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5053|With the amount of rain and the limited swell size around here, beach sand from inland ,or far above high  tide line works fine round here .It has been thoroughly rinsed with our heavy winter rainfalls.Not the case with coral sand in drier hurricane zones.I once blasted a deck with 20-30 grit sand. It went very fast. For the hull we had only 16 grit.That was much, much slower. Profile?Mine was blasted with round steel wheelabrader shot, then primed with cold galvanizing zinc primer, which doesn't come off,  but fills any "profile" completely, making "Profile" completely  irrelevant. No problems in over 32 years| 34081|34069|2017-04-23 22:49:17|opuspaul|Re: Digest Number 5053|The salt goes further than you think.  We don't get as much rain here in NZ as BC but we get a lot.   In the building codes here, anything within 500m or the coast is considered a saltwater zone.  I know this because I know people who were required to use SS fastening and hardware on their outside decks.  If I remember right, when I worked on aircraft, anything within 1000 feet of sea level was considered a salt zone.   It was required that we do a fresh water turbine compressor wash everyday on the jet engines, whether it rained or not.I said it before and don't want to beat a dead horse but I used regular sand to blast my boat in Fiji. It was supposed to be clean salt free Sigatoka sand and came from 100s of meters above the tide zone.  It was a disappointment.  We had to sift it to prevent clogging, it didn't cut nearly as well or clean as well and the rental time with the blaster ended up being much longer.   I am sure there are many people who have had success with regular sand but when the cost of hauling out, sandblasting and painting is so much compared to the cost of the blast media, is it worth taking  the risk?  In my case, the coating failed again.   It could have been a problem with the paint but I suspect it was the sand.  I had to haul out, blast and paint again.  Using regular sand may have cost me thousands.| 34082|34069|2017-04-23 22:57:28|opuspaul|Re: Digest Number 5053|>>>I once blasted a deck with 20-30 grit sand. It went very fast. For the hull we had only 16 grit.That was much, much slower. How fast it works depends on the sharpness of the material, it's hardness and the velocity of the material when it hits the plate.  I am guessing but it could be your sandblaster couldn't handle the larger grit.  | 34083|34083|2017-04-24 07:17:26|smallboatvoyaguer|Mooring bit back-up plates or whatever| So, the mooring bits are attached at deck level and ten inches below the deck. In regards to the portion that attaches below decks, where is it ideal to attach? At the bow, does it attach to the anchor locker (1/8") or the side of the hull (3/16"). At the stern does it attach to the transom or the hull? -Mar| 34084|34083|2017-04-24 15:29:05|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bit back-up plates or whatever|In the bow ,the bottom of the mooring bit welds to the back bottom of the anchor well. In the stern, it welds to the transom. Welding it to the hull causes a bit of distortion, so should be mostly avoided---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So, the mooring bits are attached at deck level and ten inches below the deck. In regards to the portion that attaches below decks, where is it ideal to attach? At the bow, does it attach to the anchor locker (1/8") or the side of the hull (3/16"). At the stern does it attach to the transom or the hull? -Mar| 34085|34069|2017-04-24 15:31:21|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5053|We have used beach sand here, with no problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The salt goes further than you think.  We don't get as much rain here in NZ as BC but we get a lot.   In the building codes here, anything within 500m or the coast is considered a saltwater zone.  I know this because I know people who were required to use SS fastening and hardware on their outside decks.  If I remember right, when I worked on aircraft, anything within 1000 feet of sea level was considered a salt zone.   It was required that we do a fresh water turbine compressor wash everyday on the jet engines, whether it rained or not.I said it before and don't want to beat a dead horse but I used regular sand to blast my boat in Fiji. It was supposed to be clean salt free Sigatoka sand and came from 100s of meters above the tide zone.  It was a disappointment.  We had to sift it to prevent clogging, it didn't cut nearly as well or clean as well and the rental time with the blaster ended up being much longer.   I am sure there are many people who have had success with regular sand but when the cost of hauling out, sandblasting and painting is so much compared to the cost of the blast media, is it worth taking  the risk?  In my case, the coating failed again.   It could have been a problem with the paint but I suspect it was the sand.  I had to haul out, blast and paint again.  Using regular sand may have cost me thousands.| 34086|34069|2017-04-24 15:32:41|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5053|It was a rented commercial blasting rig. The finer the sand, the more hits per second.| 34087|34083|2017-04-24 18:25:45|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Mooring bit back-up plates or whatever|Thanks Brent! | 34088|34088|2017-04-26 19:25:50|aguysailing|Wash off Paint stripper|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9w1GHVzqC0Would this strip paint on a Swain to bare hull?  Could not find a reference...| 34089|34088|2017-04-26 20:40:18|opuspaul|Re: Wash off Paint stripper|According to the comments section, it is the same as this stuff.    http://www.greensolv.ca/pdf/produits_industriels/decapant_peinture/Greensolv-273G_EN.pdfIt says it works on epoxies but I am skeptical it would be that effective on a high build two part epoxy paint.   It would probably take several applications and be a huge amount of work.  I found that normal paint remover will work pretty good on antifouling bottom paint.| 34090|34090|2017-04-29 14:34:53|aguysailing|Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|When you look at cost to get some sand blasting done or even sand blast rental equipment ... why not buy one of these for incredibly far less than getting it done?   Unit is made in Canada and is on sale for under $500.This would have to work on Wasser MC tar to be considered....   Thanks| 34091|34090|2017-04-29 18:09:24|opuspaul|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|I have often thought of buying or building a big sandblaster.   There are a lot of plans on the net.  The big problem/cost is not the blaster but the air compressor.Check out svseeker.com....Doug has done a lot of work with blasters and his site is a great source for info.  I have become almost addicted to his youtube channel.  Paulhttp://www.svseeker.com/wp/sv-seeker-2/sailboat/sand-blasting/| 34092|34090|2017-04-30 15:07:22|Aethiopicus|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|Because a small unit like that is 500 bucks it holds two maybe three bags of sand and it comes with a nice teanzy tiny nozzle designed to plug and a hose that ensures you've got to stop move the whole unit every few feet which usually will plug the nozzle/hose if you don't shut it down in the right order. The big monster units that you rent have a large hose with a large nozzle and a large hopper so you don't have to stop until you run out of sand.| 34093|34090|2017-04-30 15:46:40|aguysailing|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|A good point in fact.   I am looking to blast just below the waterline only (below bootstrap) which I will tape off.  I think the larger units would probably not allow for being precise.  However, this is new to me so I don't really know....| 34094|34090|2017-04-30 15:51:17|aguysailing|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|Also... as Haidan once pointed out and since there is not rust visible below waterline ...just blisters and some pitting (which could be just the paint) maybe a sweep blast would suit getting off the old bottom paint to the orginal Wasser tar and then just tar it all over again.... | 34095|34090|2017-05-01 12:00:51|Aethiopicus|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|the precision isn't really lost with bigger nozzles you're talking an aggressive blast area about the size of a quarter with the smaller setup vs. a blast area about 2-3 inches with the bigger nozzles. probably yes that it will be a quick blast to clean off all the bad spots, the bubbly bits will just tear off to bare metal real easy the rest of the hull you will probably be able to pull way back and thus giving you a bigger blast area of like a foot or so and you'll see where the paint needs a more aggressive bit of work and you move in close to strip it down to bare metal. likely at the water line you'll be able to aim at the bottom of the boot stripe all the way along and it'll rough up everything above that a couple inches. Sandblasting isn't as wild and uncontrolled as people make it out to be - sand just gets everywhere no matter what you do, control is pretty easy as long as you can see what you're doing. So not so for inside the boat but the outside bottom is a dream. I used an old glass snorkel mask last time when we did ricks boat plastic face shields just get scuffed up to the point you can't see. we used a small pot blaster and a way too small compressor (14cfm) - it worked okay for what we were doing which was just roughing up the primer and little bits of rust here and there. Albeit slow, it took three or four days to go over the whole hull. Did my boat and tylers hull with a 185cfm and a large pot with long hoses each in a day. You have to paint that same day so ideally you'd like to be done blasting by noon or shortly after, clean up and paint before any cool(aka damp) evening weather comes in. it's kinda a two person operation because anytime you have to stop one needs to first stop the sand from flowing out of the hopper and into the hose then shut the air down otherwise sand fills the whole hose and you're likely to plug it, same goes for the little shut off at the nozzle - it tends to just fill the hose and plug it. Tylers boat was full of bubbles below the water only due to 20 year old zinc primer, the steel was brand new looking under the bubbles but the would paint came off with your finger nail around them - it was very easy to see what needed more attention with the blaster and what you could just lightly pass over. as you double the nozzle size you would need about four times the volume of air the 14cfm compressor could only keep up 100 psi for about thirty seconds with the 1/4 nozzle or what ever it was on the small pot. The big ones had about a 1/2 nozzle but the 185cfm big diesel tow behind compressor could keep up the pressure all day.| 34096|34090|2017-05-01 19:00:34|aguysailing|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|Thanks A ... for the detailed reply.   The pro I had first talked with said he was going to use recycled glass ...he works in a boat yard.    Don't know if glass abrasive measures up to what you used...    | 34097|34090|2017-05-02 13:22:10|Aethiopicus|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|And as far as medium to use I really don't think it matters, it seems like one of those things that "professionals" will argue about to death in order to justify there profession, much like welding rod choice or prep. Are you painting a nuclear power plant? no. For my boat I used a fairly large/small mix of copper slag which is this black chunky sandy stuff, I've used beach sand and sand out of bags. The copper slag I used because it is supposed not break down to as small of particles after slamming into the steel and thus should fall faster so the cloud inside the boat clears faster - also not silicone based so you shouldn't get silicosis from it, not you'd want to breath it in either but maybe it's safer. I didn't really notice any difference between the surface texture between any of the mediums, maybe it's the difference between 200 grit sand paper and 120 grit? who knows either way its an awesome surface for paint to stick to. I think the main noticable thing would be the speed at which it takes shit off. Obviously the larger and more force the particles hit the steel at the more aggressive it'll be - also with larger medium you need larger nozzles and more air volume and also theres more inclination for the larger bits to clog.| 34098|34090|2017-05-02 19:34:37|brentswain38|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|The nice stuff about slag inside, it is it is black and thus doesn't reflect light as much ,improving visibility while blasting. As zinc primer fills any"Profile" and doesn't chip off, it makes profile irrelevant.It is easier  to suck air thru 24 feet of 1 1/4 inch sump- drain hose than thru most filters .The check valves in a mask ,keep it flowing in one  direction. So a mask with 24 feet of sump drain hose solves the 'What your are  breathing "  problem very effectively . Just put the end of the hose outside, upwind of where you are working.Finer sand cuts more quickly , as it means far more hits per second---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :And as far as medium to use I really don't think it matters, it seems like one of those things that "professionals" will argue about to death in order to justify there profession, much like welding rod choice or prep. Are you painting a nuclear power plant? no. For my boat I used a fairly large/small mix of copper slag which is this black chunky sandy stuff, I've used beach sand and sand out of bags. The copper slag I used because it is supposed not break down to as small of particles after slamming into the steel and thus should fall faster so the cloud inside the boat clears faster - also not silicone based so you shouldn't get silicosis from it, not you'd want to breath it in either but maybe it's safer. I didn't really notice any difference between the surface texture between any of the mediums, maybe it's the difference between 200 grit sand paper and 120 grit? who knows either way its an awesome surface for paint to stick to. I think the main noticable thing would be the speed at which it takes shit off. Obviously the larger and more force the particles hit the steel at the more aggressive it'll be - also with larger medium you need larger nozzles and more air volume and also theres more inclination for the larger bits to clog.| 34099|34090|2017-05-02 19:39:38|brentswain38|Re: Uni-ram Heavy Duty 100lb Sandblast Pot|Be careful with large rental units .Some have been used  with air tools, and an oiler, leaving oil inside the hoses. Cheek the hoses for oil inside them , and insist on oil free hoses.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Because a small unit like that is 500 bucks it holds two maybe three bags of sand and it comes with a nice teanzy tiny nozzle designed to plug and a hose that ensures you've got to stop move the whole unit every few feet which usually will plug the nozzle/hose if you don't shut it down in the right order. The big monster units that you rent have a large hose with a large nozzle and a large hopper so you don't have to stop until you run out of sand.| 34100|34100|2017-05-04 14:51:30|pikkukanki36|Cabinside top edge trimming|Vertical height between cabinsides is 10 3/4". Height at the after end is 12 1/4".The top edge makes a slight V-shape.What is basic rule of cutting / trimming?Same height all the way or higher at the wheelhouse end?How the cabintop goes at the bottom of V?Have to ask before lifting the plate!| 34101|34100|2017-05-04 15:05:27|brentswain38|Re: Cabinside top edge trimming|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It MUST  rise towards the wheelhouse end. Check the sheer of the top of the cabinside from all angles, get the tumblehome right and tack braces on it, to keep it right, and  double  check the angles from all  directions,before  putting the cabin top on. A temporary flat bar along the straight part ,helps keep it straight, while th top goes on, Very hard to correct cabinsides,  after you put the top on.Then, rough trim the cabin top plate a couple of inches oversize, for the first cutDoing the inside weld, leaves burn mark ,which makes trimming the outside flush, easier. Trim it flush, and then weld the outside with  1/8th inch 6011. Overhangs there are a real, pain in the ass rust trap.Make it flush.Vertical height between cabinsides is 10 3/4". Height at the after end is 12 1/4".The top edge makes a slight V-shape.What is basic rule of cutting / trimming?Same height all the way or higher at the wheelhouse end?How the cabintop goes at the bottom of V?Have to ask before lifting the plate!| 34102|34100|2017-05-09 14:20:08|pikkukanki36|Re: Cabinside top edge trimming|Cabintop is on and fits well, Thanks !| 34103|34103|2017-05-14 19:46:38|smallboatvoyaguer|Detailing my boat| Hey everyone, I'm detailing my boat.  I was wondering if anyone had any ideas in regards to detailing. Things they wish they would have done, new ideas, things that aren't in the book, etc. I seem to remember seeing, on Haidens boat, a hand hold inside the main hatch that served both as a water tank vent and a fuel tank vent.   Thanks, Marlin| 34104|34103|2017-05-15 11:29:01|prairiemaidca|Re: Detailing my boat|One thing I wish I had on Prairie Maid and I'm working on doing is some form of a windshield wiper.  I love the ability to sit in my warm dry pilot house in lousy weather and sail or motor along, it's just hard to see the insane amounts of crab/prawn trap floats and the traffic while coastal sailing in B.C.  Can't see it being much of problem when the boat is off shore.  Martin..| 34105|34105|2017-05-15 11:57:35|haidan|Re: Digest Number 5067|Yeah id recommend putting thos two hand holds in I like them. The water tank vent is on the hinge side and is vented inside the boat at the ceiling and the fuel tank vent goes through the back pilot house wall and with a down turn becomes another hand hold outside. Also weld in several pipe nipples at the stern, mast and bow for future wires, large engough so you dont have to cut the end of the connectors off to get them through, 1" or so. Run pipe along the edges of the cockpit well from the transom to the inside of the pilot house one for a trasom hung sounder/speed wheel and the other terminating in a ball valve right where your cooker is going to be for propane, threads at both ends. Extra half loops around the mast step is a good idea also a good solid place for a vang.  A few places on top of the pilot house for your mainsheet that are stainless wouldnt be a bad idea something that allows you to weld a gallows or hard dodger and whatever change around you might do with your mainsheet later in the future without burning paint and foam. I put a nice solid gusset with a hole in it on the back edge of the sampson post for an inner stay. Cleats along the gunnel at the bow, near the front edge of the cabin to tie your running pole down to, and midships which I use for my sheeting adjustment. Wee little loops along the gunnel for lee cloths or nettings not a bad idea. Pipe nipples through into the pilot house for taking water off the roof in addition to the drains. A place mount a vise as well as some solid place to use as an anvil, stern sampson post s work great until you put a seat over top of them. I wish I had put stainless along the back verticle corners of the pilot house as well as the stern quarters as they both get worn by rope and the dinghy. Something to catch the creosote from the chimney and keep it from spreading all over your decks. Any place that youre going to smashing paint off like where your anchor winch handle hits your foredeck weld a stainless pad. Youll probably want a box in the back of the cockpit so some tangs to bolt that on. If you really want to get fancy some stainless pads to weld some granny bars around the mast. And since youre doing the lean-over-on-your-side keel thing some pads or sockets to bolt on some struts midships so you can still dry out when you get somewhere with a tide. | 34106|34105|2017-05-15 17:25:39|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5067|I like to put the cleats on  the rail for vanging down the running pole, halfway between the shrouds and the bow, so I can   roll the jib up, or reef it, without releasing the vang.I put a piece of 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe between my two forward lower shrouds, to  sit on while reefing the main.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yeah id recommend putting thos two hand holds in I like them. The water tank vent is on the hinge side and is vented inside the boat at the ceiling and the fuel tank vent goes through the back pilot house wall and with a down turn becomes another hand hold outside. Also weld in several pipe nipples at the stern, mast and bow for future wires, large enough so you don't have to cut the end of the connectors off to get them through, 1" or so. Run pipe along the edges of the cockpit well, from the transom to the inside of the pilot house, one for a transom hung sounder/speed wheel and the other terminating in a ball valve right where your cooker is going to be for propane, threads at both ends. Extra half loops around the mast step is a good idea also a good solid place for a vang.  A few places on top of the pilot house for your main sheet that are stainless wouldn't be a bad idea something that allows you to weld a gallows or hard dodger and whatever change around you might do with your main sheet later in the future, without burning paint and foam. I put a nice solid gusset with a hole in it on the back edge of the sampson post for an inner stay. Cleats along the gunnel at the bow, near the front edge of the cabin to tie your running pole down to, and midships which I use for my sheeting adjustment. Wee little loops along the gunnel for lee cloths or nettings not a bad idea. Pipe nipples through into the pilot house for taking water off the roof in addition to the drains. A place mount a vise as well as some solid place to use as an anvil, stern sampson posts work great, until you put a seat over top of them. I wish I had put stainless along the back vertical corners of the pilot house as well as the stern quarters as they both get worn by rope and the dinghy. Something to catch the creosote from the chimney and keep it from spreading all over your decks. Any place that you're going to smashing paint ,like where your anchor winch handle hits your foredeck weld a stainless pad. You'll probably want a box in the back of the cockpit, so some tangs to bolt that on. If you really want to get fancy some stainless pads to weld some granny bars around the mast. And since you're doing the lean-over-on-your-side keel thing some pads or sockets to bolt on some struts midships so you can still dry out when you get somewhere with a tide. | 34107|34103|2017-05-15 17:30:07|brentswain38|Re: Detailing my boat|I ran a piece of 1/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe thru, tapped into  the plate and ran a piece of 5/16th ss rod thru that, with  a wiper on the outside and a handle inside, for a manually operated wiper.A set of line cutters on the prop shaft, solves the crab pot problem.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One thing I wish I had on Prairie Maid and I'm working on doing is some form of a windshield wiper.  I love the ability to sit in my warm dry pilot house in lousy weather and sail or motor along, it's just hard to see the insane amounts of crab/prawn trap floats and the traffic while coastal sailing in B.C.  Can't see it being much of problem when the boat is off shore.  Martin..| 34108|34103|2017-05-15 20:24:29|opuspaul|Re: Detailing my boat|I would put a few very strong eyebolts on the cabin top if your handholds aren't made from heavy pipe or they can't take a heavy load.   The eyebolts are useful for tying the dinghy down or other heavy gear on deck and unlike cleats, they won't snag lines.| 34109|34109|2017-05-26 19:31:36|bobobo882002|Frameless steel centre hull trimaran.| Hi  [see pictures in folder] I have attached a picture of a steel[ centre hull] trimaran I built in 1980 which I then sailed from Sydney to Townsville with a partner. The trip was uneventful and the boat proved to be  seaworthy in rough conditions.  The centre hull was built frame-less and was " up and standing"  in 3 days.  It was made out of two 40ft lengths of 3mm steel plate.  Firstly  a model was made in cardboard and then the sides of the V hull [ mirror images]  were cut to shape using oxy.    The two sides were placed on the ground and a temporary hinge connected them together.  Then a 44gallon drum was rolled under each side plate until a tie wire/ chain could be connected between each gunwale.  This process gradually started to bring the sides together and  I used multiple tie bars etc etc. along the full length . The final  step was to get the pointy ends together and they did not want to go but with careful winching at each end the hull sprung past its deformed slump " outwards"  and snapped into place.  As I say this took 3 days and the shape that formed was perfectly fair... flawless.   This is the large advantage with frame-less.  Any flat sheet that is curved in one direction will show a very slight curvature in the other axis so a straight framed boat simply does not match the sheets that are offered up and sometimes the builders wedge the hull  plate onto the frame which causes distortion.   After final adjustments to the shape I fitted a false bottom in the V [ again 3mm steel]  and half way up the sides there was a teardrop shaped lightweight spaceframe " stringer"  which was used as a storage platform.  There was a 4 cylinder engine in the hull and " keel cooling" tubes also acted as stringers.  The bare hull turned out about 1600 lbs [ from memory].   I towed it down to the water for launching with a mini 850 panel van.  In  one picture you can see the " house" which sat on the cross beams and there was decking lashed to these beams   The complete trimaran weighed aprox  2.5 tons.  It was 40 ft long , used a small sail area [ aprox 300sq ft from memory] and could average 8 kts  over long periods with the wind free.   The widward performance was limited but this did not prove a problem enough to warrant a centerboard.  It tacked easily and self steered as on rails [ with windvane/ trim tab] .  It was perfectly balanced in all wind strengths.  The cross beams were grown timbers cut from a forest and soaked in fresh water for 6 months.  The outrigger floats were PVC " sewer pipe" sections with fiberglass ends   Certainly  the method of frame less construction is very satisfying...  this  method using no formwork and  even working against gravity proved easy.   Good luck  Phillip. | 34110|34109|2017-05-29 15:22:27|brentswain38|Re: Frameless steel centre hull trimaran.|Origami lends itself well to multihulls, A Warram cat would be extremely simple to build  in aluminium using origami methods.I think the basic shellcould be tacked together in a day.I saw an aluminium Warram cat here last year,  which was over 30 years old, and had never had a drop of paint on her hull and decks. He just beached her and scraped her when she needed cleaning. She had been  rammed by a seine boat ; the bow on one float was a bit mangled ,but no leaks, so he just kept on cruising.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi  [see pictures in folder] I have attached a picture of a steel[ centre hull] trimaran I built in 1980 which I then sailed from Sydney to Townsville with a partner. The trip was uneventful and the boat proved to be  seaworthy in rough conditions. The centre hull was built frame-less and was " up and standing"  in 3 days.  It was made out of two 40ft lengths of 3mm steel plate.  Firstly  a model was made in cardboard and then the sides of the V hull [ mirror images]  were cut to shape using oxy.    The two sides were placed on the ground and a temporary hinge connected them together.  Then a 44gallon drum was rolled under each side plate until a tie wire/ chain could be connected between each gunwale.  This process gradually started to bring the sides together and  I used multiple tie bars etc etc. along the full length . The final  step was to get the pointy ends together and they did not want to go but with careful winching at each end the hull sprung past its deformed slump " outwards"  and snapped into place.  As I say this took 3 days and the shape that formed was perfectly fair... flawless.  This is the large advantage with frame-less.  Any flat sheet that is curved in one direction will show a very slight curvature in the other axis so a straight framed boat simply does not match the sheets that are offered up and sometimes the builders wedge the hull  plate onto the frame which causes distortion.   After final adjustments to the shape I fitted a false bottom in the V [ again 3mm steel]  and half way up the sides there was a teardrop shaped lightweight spaceframe " stringer"  which was used as a storage platform.  There was a 4 cylinder engine in the hull and " keel cooling" tubes also acted as stringers.  The bare hull turned out about 1600 lbs [ from memory].  I towed it down to the water for launching with a mini 850 panel van.  In  one picture you can see the " house" which sat on the cross beams and there was decking lashed to these beams  The complete trimaran weighed aprox  2.5 tons.  It was 40 ft long , used a small sail area [ aprox 300sq ft from memory] and could average 8 kts  over long periods with the wind free.  The widward performance was limited but this did not prove a problem enough to warrant a centerboard.  It tacked easily and self steered as on rails [ with windvane/ trim tab] .  It was perfectly balanced in all wind strengths. The cross beams were grown timbers cut from a forest and soaked in fresh water for 6 months.  The outrigger floats were PVC " sewer pipe" sections with fiberglass ends  Certainly  the method of frame less construction is very satisfying...  this  method using no formwork and  even working against gravity proved easy.  Good luck  Phillip.| 34111|34111|2017-05-30 13:39:15|aguysailing|Amerlock 400|Opus... just read some specs.  Basically to use just ad the hardener to the well mixed can and apply.   Just wondering how you applied this product... spray or brush/roller?  Thanks| 34112|34111|2017-05-30 18:17:27|opuspaul|Re: Amerlock 400|I just applied it using brush and roller.  You might need to thin it a bit but I wouldn't hesitate to use it with a pressure pot if I was spraying the outside of the hull.   Of all the high build epoxies I have used, it seems to be the easiest to apply and flows well.| 34113|34111|2017-05-31 14:12:21|aguysailing|Re: Amerlock 400|Thanks Opus:  I am looking at International Paints Intershield 300 or the Amerlock 400.   3.5 us gallons is $325 for the 300.  I have been unable to find a supplier or price for Amerlock yet.   The intershield is used on military ships here in BC which I guess says something positive about the product.  | 34114|34114|2017-05-31 15:17:24|aguysailing|Garnet Abrasive|(Opus)... you mentioned using a garnet abrasive.  A local supplier in BC offers India garnet 30/60 and Chinese garnet 30/40 $29 and $24 per 55lb bag respectively.   There is a usa company Barton mines claiming theirs is the best and they claim using their garnet is an "open air" use and not dust producing which needs some kind of cover.   What was your experience using garnet also India vs China.   | 34115|34111|2017-05-31 18:22:26|opuspaul|Re: Amerlock 400|Ameron is now PPG.   I don't know why these paint companies can't leave things alone.   They keep changing the name....it now appears to be under the name Sigmacover?   Cheers, Paulhttp://www.ppgpmc.com/Products/7988/AMERLOCK-400---SIGMACOVER-400.aspx| 34116|34114|2017-05-31 18:51:33|opuspaul|Re: Garnet Abrasive|As long as it is clean, I would think garnet is garnet.   You could ask the supplier if there has been any complaints.  Don't believe the claims about there not being dust.   It will be everywhere.    Compared to silica sand, copper slag and garnet will settle quicker and not hang in the air and blow away but you still end up with a tremendous mess.  Anyone blasting in NZ needs a resource consent and tarps enclosing their boat if located near anybody else...this can really add up.   Because of the difficulty of getting a resource consent, I had to hire somebody else to blast the boat.  Most of the quotes I got were ridiculous because they included a crew to set up scaffolding with a total enclosure.   The enclosure added two days with travel time and cost almost as much as the blasting.   I eventually found a blaster who let me do it on my own under his resource consent using my own tarps.   My quote ended up being not too bad but I was lucky the wind never got up.   This seems to be the way the world is going now and a big reason to try to do the job right in the first place.  Next time you try, it might be much more difficult or much more expensive.   The nanny state eventually rules out all our fun.  There are boat yards in NZ that don't even allow you to do your own sanding now unless you hire their vacuum system.   Only their workers are allowed to sand bottom paint.  These boat yards should be boycotted but for some reason they still get customers.   It is getting just ridiculous with rules made by bureacrats and eco terrorists who live in fantasy land.  Most of them have never held a paint brush in their life and think that a $20K or $30K high gloss paint job on the topsides of a boat is a good deal.   Good luck, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :(Opus)... you mentioned using a garnet abrasive.  A local supplier in BC offers India garnet 30/60 and Chinese garnet 30/40 $29 and $24 per 55lb bag respectively.   There is a usa company Barton mines claiming theirs is the best and they claim using their garnet is an "open air" use and not dust producing which needs some kind of cover.   What was your experience using garnet also India vs China.   | 34117|34114|2017-05-31 20:25:20|mountain man|Re: Garnet Abrasive| The future is laser rust removing On May 31, 2017, at 6:51 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   As long as it is clean, I would think garnet is garnet.   You could ask the supplier if there has been any complaints.  Don't believe the claims about there not being dust.   It will be everywhere.    Compared to silica sand, copper slag and garnet will settle quicker and not hang in the air and blow away but you still end up with a tremendous mess.  Anyone blasting in NZ needs a resource consent and tarps enclosing their boat if located near anybody else...this can really add up.   Because of the difficulty of getting a resource consent, I had to hire somebody else to blast the boat.  Most of the quotes I got were ridiculous because they included a crew to set up scaffolding with a total enclosure.   The enclosure added two days with travel time and cost almost as much as the blasting.   I eventually found a blaster who let me do it on my own under his resource consent using my own tarps.   My quote ended up being not too bad but I was lucky the wind never got up.   This seems to be the way the world is going now and a big reason to try to do the job right in the first place.  Next time you try, it might be much more difficult or much more expensive.   The nanny state eventually rules out all our fun.  There are boat yards in NZ that don't even allow you to do your own sanding now unless you hire their vacuum system.   Only their workers are allowed to sand bottom paint.  These boat yards should be boycotted but for some reason they still get customers.   It is getting just ridiculous with rules made by bureacrats and eco terrorists who live in fantasy land.  Most of them have never held a paint brush in their life and think that a $20K or $30K high gloss paint job on the topsides of a boat is a good deal.   Good luck, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : (Opus)... you mentioned using a garnet abrasive.  A local supplier in BC offers India garnet 30/60 and Chinese garnet 30/40 $29 and $24 per 55lb bag respectively.   There is a usa company Barton mines claiming theirs is the best and they claim using their garnet is an "open air" use and not dust producing which needs some kind of cover.   What was your experience using garnet also India vs China.   | 34118|34118|2017-06-02 11:29:42|inter4905|Twin keels width|Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin| 34119|34114|2017-06-02 15:17:16|aguysailing|Re: Garnet Abrasive|Opus... what grit garnet did you find best 30/60 or 30/40...  got to go through Wasser tar.....| 34120|34118|2017-06-02 15:23:19|brentswain38|Re: Twin keels width|I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin| 34121|34118|2017-06-02 15:27:11|mountain man|Re: Twin keels width| If I use steel for ballast should I build the keels wider to compensate steel volume for its weight compare to lead? Martin On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:23 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin | 34122|34122|2017-06-02 17:22:55|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Digest Number 5071|Hi Brent,Long time mate, hope all's well!Just headed over to see Phil Sigmund & his 27' Swain (with a wee bow sprit) he's got for saleApparently built in the 80's (by you?), brought back to bare steel in '95 & they added a dog house & a skeg (but still salt H2O cooled.. which I'd change right off).Anyway, thats about all the info I have & headed over there now.Do you have any info or words of wisdom you might want to impart?Thanks,ShaneSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 6:06 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 2 Messages Digest #5071 1a Amerlock 400 by aguysailing 1b Re: Amerlock 400 by opuspaul Messages 1a Amerlock 400 Tue May 30, 2017 10:39 am (PDT) . Posted by: aguysailing Opus... just read some specs. Basically to use just ad the hardener to the well mixed can and apply. Just wondering how you applied this product... spray or brush/roller? Thanks Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ 1b Re: Amerlock 400 Tue May 30, 2017 3:17 pm (PDT) . Posted by: opuspaul I just applied it using brush and roller. You might need to thin it a bit but I wouldn't hesitate to use it with a pressure pot if I was spraying the outside of the hull. Of all the high build epoxies I have used, it seems to be the easiest to apply and flows well. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group New Members 1 New Photos 2 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34123|34114|2017-06-03 13:09:16|jpronk1|Re: Garnet Abrasive|The purpose of abrasive blasting is not only to remove rust but also to remove mill scale and to provide a profile to your steel for the paint to stick. The profile or what's also called tooth of the metal is very important for good paint adhesion. I am not sure how the profile of the steel is after laser rust removal. Does it remove mill scale? Just my $.05 (we no longer have penny's in 🇨🇦) Sent from my iPhone| 34124|34114|2017-06-03 13:13:57|mountain man|Re: Garnet Abrasive| It would be good for the inside of the boat though, rust removing without any dust Martin On Jun 3, 2017, at 1:09 PM, "jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   The purpose of abrasive blasting is not only to remove rust but also to remove mill scale and to provide a profile to your steel for the paint to stick. The profile or what's also called tooth of the metal is very important for good paint adhesion. I am not sure how the profile of the steel is after laser rust removal. Does it remove mill scale? Just my $.05 (we no longer have penny's in 🇨🇦) Sent from my iPhone | 34125|34118|2017-06-04 18:20:16|brentswain38|Re: Twin keels width|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On one boat we used cast iron pulp mill grinder plates  with lead melted around them. Steel being around 495 lbs per cubic ft, and lead being closer to 400, we ended up with around 600 lbs per cubic ft, not that far from straight lead. It didn't come that much higher. How much you change depends on how loose a fit your steel is ,how much space around it and what you use around it.How do you plan to do this?If I use steel for ballast should I build the keels wider to compensate steel volume for its weight compare to lead?Martin On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:23 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin| 34126|34122|2017-06-04 18:25:27|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5071|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sounds like my first origami boat ,built for George Strutch. He built her well, with lots of epoxy inside.Mostly galv trim ,but it was kept well painted , so should be as good as new.That rig is designed to take a  Soling mainsail, which are a dime a dozen on the used sail market.She sails well, and balances beautifully .Hi Brent,Long time mate, hope all's well!Just headed over to see Phil Sigmund & his 27' Swain (with a wee bow sprit) he's got for saleApparently built in the 80's (by you?), brought back to bare steel in '95 & they added a dog house & a skeg (but still salt H2O cooled.. which I'd change right off).Anyway, thats about all the info I have & headed over there now.Do you have any info or words of wisdom you might want to impart?Thanks,ShaneSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 6:06 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 2 Messages Digest #5071 1a Amerlock 400 by aguysailing 1b Re: Amerlock 400 by opuspaul Messages 1a Amerlock 400 Tue May 30, 2017 10:39 am (PDT) . Posted by: aguysailing Opus... just read some specs. Basically to use just ad the hardener to the well mixed can and apply. Just wondering how you applied this product... spray or brush/roller? Thanks Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ 1b Re: Amerlock 400 Tue May 30, 2017 3:17 pm (PDT) . Posted by: opuspaul I just applied it using brush and roller. You might need to thin it a bit but I wouldn't hesitate to use it with a pressure pot if I was spraying the outside of the hull. Of all the high build epoxies I have used, it seems to be the easiest to apply and flows well. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group New Members 1 New Photos 2 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34127|34114|2017-06-04 18:30:31|brentswain38|Re: Garnet Abrasive|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Wheelabrading is done with perfectly round steel shot ,and I have had no problem getting zinc  rich cold galvanizing primer to stick well( for 33 years). After the primer, there is no profile left which is not filled The purpose of abrasive blasting is not only to remove rust but also to remove mill scale and to provide a profile to your steel for the paint to stick. The profile or what's also called tooth of the metal is very important for good paint adhesion. I am not sure how the profile of the steel is after laser rust removal. Does it remove mill scale? Just my $.05 (we no longer have penny's in 🇨🇦) Sent from my iPhone| 34128|34114|2017-06-04 18:36:10|brentswain38|Re: Garnet Abrasive|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : One option for small areas is to run your blaster nozzle thru an elbow, which is hooked to a shop vac. It  bounces once, and is  instantly sucked up by the shop vac. No dust. Princess auto calls it "Vacu Blast"but it is simply a small blaster, an elbow and a shop vac. Good only for small blasters ,and small jobs.It would be good for the inside of the boat though, rust removing without any dustMartin Sent from my iPhone| 34129|34118|2017-06-04 22:03:19|Brian Stannard|Re: Twin keels width|BrentLead is over 700 lbs a cubic foot. On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 3:20 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On one boat we used cast iron pulp mill grinder plates  with lead melted around them. Steel being around 495 lbs per cubic ft, and lead being closer to 400, we ended up with around 600 lbs per cubic ft, not that far from straight lead. It didn't come that much higher. How much you change depends on how loose a fit your steel is ,how much space around it and what you use around it.How do you plan to do this?If I use steel for ballast should I build the keels wider to compensate steel volume for its weight compare to lead?Martin On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:23 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin -- CheersBrian | 34130|34118|2017-06-05 14:26:57|mountain man|Re: Twin keels width| Brent, How do I plan to do this? Good question, because I did not bought the steel yet, maybe I will get small steel bearing balls Martin On Jun 4, 2017, at 6:20 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On one boat we used cast iron pulp mill grinder plates  with lead melted around them. Steel being around 495 lbs per cubic ft, and lead being closer to 400, we ended up with around 600 lbs per cubic ft, not that far from straight lead. It didn't come that much higher. How much you change depends on how loose a fit your steel is ,how much space around it and what you use around it. How do you plan to do this? If I use steel for ballast should I build the keels wider to compensate steel volume for its weight compare to lead? Martin On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:23 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin | 34131|34118|2017-06-05 15:42:17|mountain man|Re: Twin keels width| Brent I was thinking to make my keels 6 1/2 feet long on top and 5 1/2 feet at the bottom Martin On Jun 4, 2017, at 6:20 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On one boat we used cast iron pulp mill grinder plates  with lead melted around them. Steel being around 495 lbs per cubic ft, and lead being closer to 400, we ended up with around 600 lbs per cubic ft, not that far from straight lead. It didn't come that much higher. How much you change depends on how loose a fit your steel is ,how much space around it and what you use around it. How do you plan to do this? If I use steel for ballast should I build the keels wider to compensate steel volume for its weight compare to lead? Martin On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:23 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin | 34132|34111|2017-06-05 18:32:14|aguysailing|Amerlock 400|Opus... just to confirm a bit about this product which sounds good otherwise will go to what I know which is Wasser MC Tar.   For Amerlock what is time to re-coat (2 coats brush and roller); coverage per sq ft; and cure time to put boat back into the water.   Going on the hard here like anywhere I guess $$.   The spec sheet on line has what looks like contradictory info.  Thanks....| 34133|34114|2017-06-05 18:51:40|opuspaul|Re: Garnet Abrasive|Sorry, I don't remember since it was the blaster guy who supplied the blast media.   I am not sure if you saw it but there are two paint wet and dry blast spec recommendations in my folder in the file section.   From the specs of your paint, you should be able to figure out the right media size depending on the blaster you are using.According to the sheet for Amerlock 2 (same as Amerlock 400)  it says: All surfaces should be blast cleaned in accordance with AS1627.4 Class 2 ½ and with an angular anchorpattern of 75-100 microns.The paint spec for the Altex coating is slightly less at 35 to 50 microns.I am not sure why the two would be so different.  My guess it that since the Ameron flows nicer it allows you to have a more aggressive blast profile without using a primer.   I am not criticizing the Altex since it is a great system, too.  I have never used Wasser tar.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Opus... what grit garnet did you find best 30/60 or 30/40...  got to go through Wasser tar.....| 34134|34111|2017-06-05 19:22:17|opuspaul|Re: Amerlock 400|It might cost a bit more time and money but I recommend 3 coats if you are doing brush and roller or you are new to using a spray gun.  Get a few of the paint thickness gauge combs to check your wet film application thickness.  The paint supplier should give you these for free.    Recoat time depends on temperature.  A good rule of thumb is that the epoxy is set up and not tacky but not so hard that you can't push your thumb nail into it and make a mark.    This is normally not a problem but if you get delayed for some reason and need to wait a week or more between coats make sure you do this test.   On a warm day you might be able to put on two coats. I would put the first coat of antifouling on top of the last coat of epoxy within twelve hours.   I put my final coat of epoxy on in the morning and put my first coat of antifouling late that afternoon.   The anti-fouling melts right in to the epoxy and is then a great bond for later coats.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Opus... just to confirm a bit about this product which sounds good otherwise will go to what I know which is Wasser MC Tar.   For Amerlock what is time to re-coat (2 coats brush and roller); coverage per sq ft; and cure time to put boat back into the water.   Going on the hard here like anywhere I guess $$.   The spec sheet on line has what looks like contradictory info.  Thanks....| 34135|34111|2017-06-06 20:43:45|aguysailing|Re: Amerlock 400|Good info Opus .. thanks.   It is mid 20-25 deg celsius presently and higher coming.   Staying on the hard for week+ is not an option ... just too pricey.  This is why I was re-thinking Wasser MC Tar.  Problem some of us have had however is that Wasser spec sheet says use a primer first (Miozinc) which some of us have found out starts to bubble up in places where the MC tar is pentrated due to copper in the miozinc re-acting with salt water (Brent could expl better).  It has been suggested on this forum to just put the MC Tar on bare metal.  I re-read the spec sheet and it says specifically NOT to put their MC Tar direct on metal.    I am going to check out Intershield 3000 again.  This below the waterline paint thing is on bare metal looks to me like more long term process than I hoped.| 34136|34136|2017-06-17 22:05:09|smallboatvoyaguer|Trim Tab Lock| Anyone have a good idea for a trim-tab locking mechanism?  -Marlin| 34137|34137|2017-06-18 19:10:39|aguysailing|Opus.... Amerlock 880|I bought Amerlock 400/2 .  Speck sheets says to add Amerlock 880 which is glass flake comes in a white powder.  http://www.ppgpmc.com/Products/P371/AMERCOAT-880.aspxDid you use it?  Just wondering if necessary.| 34138|34137|2017-06-18 20:33:05|opuspaul|Re: Opus.... Amerlock 880|I thought about it but never used the additive.  The paint reps here said it is not normally used on steel boats but I think I would use it if I had an aluminum boat or a glass boat with blisters.   I think it makes the paint thicker and a little bit harder to apply.  If I was going to use it, I think I would do the first coat without the flakes and then add the flake for the later coats.  You could try a bit and experiment to see how easy it is to apply.I believe the theory to the flakes is similar to the flakes used in Interprotect.  It may well be the same thing.http://www.yachtpaint.com/LiteratureCentre/interprotect-guide.pdfhttp://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/ask-the-experts/video-interprotect.aspx---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I bought Amerlock 400/2 .  Speck sheets says to add Amerlock 880 which is glass flake comes in a white powder.  http://www.ppgpmc.com/Products/P371/AMERCOAT-880.aspxDid you use it?  Just wondering if necessary.| 34139|34136|2017-06-18 20:36:05|opuspaul|Re: Trim Tab Lock|I just use a fixed rod from the windvane mount to the trim tab arm.  Make it so that you can adjust it a bit to achieve a neutral helm.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Anyone have a good idea for a trim-tab locking mechanism?  -Marlin| 34140|34137|2017-06-21 16:38:50|brentswain38|Re: Opus.... Amerlock 880|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I like the idea of glass flakes.Makes moisture take the long, scenic route around lots of them, before it can reach the metal. I believe that is what made interprotect 2000E so effective.I bought Amerlock 400/2 .  Speck sheets says to add Amerlock 880 which is glass flake comes in a white powder.  http://www.ppgpmc.com/Products/P371/AMERCOAT-880.aspxDid you use it?  Just wondering if necessary.| 34141|34141|2017-06-23 16:09:50|smallboatvoyaguer|My boat| Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again.  It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating.  My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it  Or sell it off and move on  I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web,  I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open.  - Marlin | 34142|34141|2017-06-23 16:18:48|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: My boat|Man, what a bummer!  My heart is with you.  Bruno Ogorelec On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:09 PM, musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] wrote:    Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again.  It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating.  My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it  Or sell it off and move on  I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web,  I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open.  - Marlin  | 34143|34141|2017-06-23 21:37:05|arthur saftlas|Re: My boat|It doesn’t sound like it is neurological, like from your neck possibly. I have a good rolfer, who might be able to help. He is in Utah, still travels here to the San Francisco area to work with long time clients. Rolfers are everywhere worth talking to one.| 34144|34137|2017-06-24 18:10:37|brentswain38|Re: Opus.... Amerlock 880|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If one can buy the glass flakes separately, it seems a good idea to add them to any epoxy, for the same effect.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I like the idea of glass flakes.Makes moisture take the long, scenic route around lots of them, before it can reach the metal. I believe that is what made interprotect 2000E so effective.I bought Amerlock 400/2 .  Speck sheets says to add Amerlock 880 which is glass flake comes in a white powder.  http://www.ppgpmc.com/Products/P371/AMERCOAT-880.aspxDid you use it?  Just wondering if necessary.| 34145|34141|2017-06-24 18:16:05|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sad!  Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for  a while.  Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again.  It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating.  My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it  Or sell it off and move on  I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web,  I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open.  - Marlin | 34146|34146|2017-06-26 19:35:17|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Digest Number 5075|Re: Folks BoatsHi guys,I'm looking at at 39' steel Flolks boat. She's properly spray foamed & looks good on photo's.I had heard that some were not properly painted or spray foam insulated & the results were horrific, but IF properly dealt with were fine. But all of this is hearsay.Anyone familiar with these?Anything specific that I should look for?Also, on a rather sad note, Dove IV went down to Sanfransisco & was on the market for "some time".Not a nibble. Eventually, last December, given away to the Boy Scouts for a tax write off. Break your bloody heart. There is a hot deal on a 27' Swain on Saltspring if your 5'6" or lessrom Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:16 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 4 Messages Digest #5075 1a Re: Twin keels width by brentswain38 2a Re: Digest Number 5071 by brentswain38 3a Re: Garnet Abrasive by brentswain38 3b Re: Garnet Abrasive by brentswain38 Messages 1a Re: Twin keels width Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:20 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On one boat we used cast iron pulp mill grinder plates with lead melted around them. Steel being around 495 lbs per cubic ft, and lead being closer to 400, we ended up with around 600 lbs per cubic ft, not that far from straight lead. It didn't come that much higher. How much you change depends on how loose a fit your steel is ,how much space around it and what you use around it. How do you plan to do this? If I use steel for ballast should I build the keels wider to compensate steel volume for its weight compare to lead? Martin On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:23 PM, "brentswain38@... mailto:brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote: I go six inches on the bottom and 7 inches wide on the top ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, I would like to know the width of the twin keels at their center top and bottom, From the Origami DVD the top opening seems quite larger than the bottom Thanks, Martin Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 2a Re: Digest Number 5071 Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:25 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sounds like my first origami boat ,built for George Strutch. He built her well, with lots of epoxy inside.Mostly galv trim ,but it was kept well painted , so should be as good as new. That rig is designed to take a Soling mainsail, which are a dime a dozen on the used sail market. She sails well, and balances beautifully . Hi Brent, Long time mate, hope all's well! Just headed over to see Phil Sigmund & his 27' Swain (with a wee bow sprit) he's got for sale Apparently built in the 80's (by you?), brought back to bare steel in '95 & they added a dog house & a skeg (but still salt H2O cooled.. which I'd change right off). Anyway, thats about all the info I have & headed over there now. Do you have any info or words of wisdom you might want to impart? Thanks, Shane Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 6:06 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 2 Messages Digest #5071 1a Amerlock 400 by aguysailing 1b Re: Amerlock 400 by opuspaul Messages 1a Amerlock 400 Tue May 30, 2017 10:39 am (PDT) . Posted by: aguysailing Opus... just read some specs. Basically to use just ad the hardener to the well mixed can and apply. Just wondering how you applied this product... spray or brush/roller? Thanks Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ 1b Re: Amerlock 400 Tue May 30, 2017 3:17 pm (PDT) . Posted by: opuspaul I just applied it using brush and roller. You might need to thin it a bit but I wouldn't hesitate to use it with a pressure pot if I was spraying the outside of the hull. Of all the high build epoxies I have used, it seems to be the easiest to apply and flows well. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZ2FxY2E0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ5NjE5Mjc4Mg-- New Members https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/members/all;_ylc=X3oDMTJmanJtMXVwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzE0OTYxOTI3ODI- 1 New Photos https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/photos/photostream;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZG1hYzUzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZwaG90BHN0aW1lAzE0OTYxOTI3ODI- 2 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZjJwODg0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDk2MTkyNzgy • Privacy https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html • Unsubscribe mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe • Terms of Use https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^ 3a Re: Garnet Abrasive Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:30 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Wheelabrading is done with perfectly round steel shot ,and I have had no problem getting zinc rich cold galvanizing primer to stick well( for 33 years). After the primer, there is no profile left which is not filled The purpose of abrasive blasting is not only to remove rust but also to remove mill scale and to provide a profile to your steel for the paint to stick. The profile or what's also called tooth of the metal is very important for good paint adhesion. I am not sure how the profile of the steel is after laser rust removal. Does it remove mill scale? Just my $.05 (we no longer have penny's in 🇨🇦) Sent from my iPhone Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (8) . Top ^ 3b Re: Garnet Abrasive Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:36 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : One option for small areas is to run your blaster nozzle thru an elbow, which is hooked to a shop vac. It bounces once, and is instantly sucked up by the shop vac. No dust. Princess auto calls it "Vacu Blast"but it is simply a small blaster, an elbow and a shop vac. Good only for small blasters ,and small jobs. It would be good for the inside of the boat though, rust removing without any dust Martin Sent from my iPhone Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (8) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34147|34146|2017-06-27 00:49:00|opuspaul|Re: Folkes|I saw one in Malaysia.  Despite being well maintained, it was an almost total write-off.  It had a very expensive and high gloss paint job on the outside but rust was coming out from the inside via hundreds of small pin holes.   I have heard that some of them were just foamed over bare steel.    I would check under the foam insulation and make sure that it was painted properly inside.  I have been looking at used boats.  The prices keep dropping.  It is relatively easy to find a used boat for less than the cost of materials to build one.Here is a good example of one in NZ....I haven't seen it but from the pictures it looks OK.    You could buy it and be in Fiji or Tonga in a few weeks :).http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1354217849.htm---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Re: Folks BoatsHi guys,I'm looking at at 39' steel Flolks boat. She's properly spray foamed & looks good on photo's.I had heard that some were not properly painted or spray foam insulated & the results were horrific, but IF properly dealt with were fine. But all of this is hearsay.Anyone familiar with these?Anything specific that I should look for?Also, on a rather sad note, Dove IV went down to Sanfransisco & was on the market for "some time".Not a nibble. Eventually, last December, given away to the Boy Scouts for a tax write off. Break your bloody heart. There is a hot deal on a 27' Swain on Saltspring if your 5'6" or less • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34148|34141|2017-06-27 18:11:41|Oneill|Re: My boat|In addition to a roller look for an acupuncturist, preferably one certified in Sports Medicine Acupuncture (SMAC). Should be able to help.Thanks,MikeSent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2017, at 6:16 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sad!  Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for  a while.  Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again.  It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating.  My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it  Or sell it off and move on  I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web,  I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open.  - Marlin  | 34149|34146|2017-06-27 18:19:22|brentswain38|Re: Folkes|Most of them were just spray foamed over mill scale and rust. If you drag your fingernails over the foam, you can hear the hollow spots  where the foam has separated.Dig the foam out there,  andi f you don't see  clean epoxy, walk away. Some had no paint  in the bilges just flaking  rust. Most had fragile plastic thru hulls you cans lap off with your hand ,leaving a big hole in the boat,. Most have fuel tank vents in the hull topsides, where they go underwater  when the boat heels. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I saw one in Malaysia.  Despite being well maintained, it was an almost total write-off.  It had a very expensive and high gloss paint job on the outside but rust was coming out from the inside via hundreds of small pin holes.   I have heard that some of them were just foamed over bare steel.    I would check under the foam insulation and make sure that it was painted properly inside.  I have been looking at used boats.  The prices keep dropping.  It is relatively easy to find a used boat for less than the cost of materials to build one.Here is a good example of one in NZ....I haven't seen it but from the pictures it looks OK.    You could buy it and be in Fiji or Tonga in a few weeks :).http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1354217849.htm---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Re: Folks BoatsHi guys,I'm looking at at 39' steel Flolks boat. She's properly spray foamed & looks good on photo's.I had heard that some were not properly painted or spray foam insulated & the results were horrific, but IF properly dealt with were fine. But all of this is hearsay.Anyone familiar with these?Anything specific that I should look for?Also, on a rather sad note, Dove IV went down to Sanfransisco & was on the market for "some time".Not a nibble. Eventually, last December, given away to the Boy Scouts for a tax write off. Break your bloody heart. There is a hot deal on a 27' Swain on Saltspring if your 5'6" or less • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34150|34141|2017-06-27 18:20:45|brentswain38|Re: My boat|On could hire a student for cheap, to do the grinding, etc.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sad!  Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for  a while.  Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again.  It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating.  My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it  Or sell it off and move on  I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web,  I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open.  - Marlin | 34151|34141|2017-06-27 18:56:55|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Mr. Swain, do you think you could help Marlin out? It looks like his boat is pretty far along and he has alot of the gear allready. It won't be more than a month or two of work to get her ready to splash for someone with your experience and skills.| 34152|34141|2017-06-27 19:53:57|Victor Giraud|Re: My boat|I have hand both hands operated on, both middle fingers. Took a month to recover, but I couldn�t work without the surgery. Had my ring finger, left hand injected with cortisone, but it was a waste of time. Will have to get it done also. Only problem, my plastic surgeon moved. Operations only took 15-20 minutes each, and covered by my medical plan. (BC Med) I was a high priority, classed as a mobility issue, as no operation, no work. PS told me scandavaniavin heritage people are more susceptible to trigger finger. My daughter in law (Finnish) had to get her pinky done and she is a school teacher. I am glad I got them done. Vic Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 3:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: My boat On could hire a student for cheap, to do the grinding, etc. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sad! Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for a while. Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again. It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating. My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it Or sell it off and move on I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web, I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open. - Marlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34153|34141|2017-06-28 12:56:31|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: My boat| Some friends and I are brainstorming some ideas.  Thanks for the support folks. I've already had a cortisone shot once. Seems obvious that I will need trigger finger surgery to get use of my right index finger back. Been almost two weeks since I worked on my boat and am just now able to close my left hand without it locking up. My right hand is better, but not 100%.  | 34154|34154|2017-06-28 16:09:23|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Digest Number 5083|Re: Folks:Thank you lads! Invaluable info! Re: My Boat:The Chinese use ginger oil for arthritisSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 6 Messages Digest #5083 1a Re: Folkes by opuspaul 1b Re: Folkes by brentswain38 2a Re: My boat by "Oneill" massagemagichands 2b Re: My boat by brentswain38 2c Re: My boat by ninbubbas 2d Re: My boat by "Victor Giraud" scoutervic Messages 1a Re: Folkes Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:49 pm (PDT) . Posted by: opuspaul I saw one in Malaysia. Despite being well maintained, it was an almost total write-off. It had a very expensive and high gloss paint job on the outside but rust was coming out from the inside via hundreds of small pin holes. I have heard that some of them were just foamed over bare steel. I would check under the foam insulation and make sure that it was painted properly inside. I have been looking at used boats. The prices keep dropping. It is relatively easy to find a used boat for less than the cost of materials to build one. Here is a good example of one in NZ....I haven't seen it but from the pictures it looks OK. You could buy it and be in Fiji or Tonga in a few weeks :). http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1354217849.htm http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1354217849.htm ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Re: Folks Boats Hi guys, I'm looking at at 39' steel Flolks boat. She's properly spray foamed & looks good on photo's. I had heard that some were not properly painted or spray foam insulated & the results were horrific, but IF properly dealt with were fine. But all of this is hearsay. Anyone familiar with these? Anything specific that I should look for? Also, on a rather sad note, Dove IV went down to Sanfransisco & was on the market for "some time".Not a nibble. Eventually, last December, given away to the Boy Scouts for a tax write off. Break your bloody heart. There is a hot deal on a 27' Swain on Saltspring if your 5'6" or less https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNHEzaWVuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDk2NjI1MzYz • Privacy https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html • Unsubscribe mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe • Terms of Use https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^ 1b Re: Folkes Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:19 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 Most of them were just spray foamed over mill scale and rust. If you drag your fingernails over the foam, you can hear the hollow spots where the foam has separated.Dig the foam out there, andi f you don't see clean epoxy, walk away. Some had no paint in the bilges just flaking rust. Most had fragile plastic thru hulls you cans lap off with your hand ,leaving a big hole in the boat,. Most have fuel tank vents in the hull topsides, where they go underwater when the boat heels. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I saw one in Malaysia. Despite being well maintained, it was an almost total write-off. It had a very expensive and high gloss paint job on the outside but rust was coming out from the inside via hundreds of small pin holes. I have heard that some of them were just foamed over bare steel. I would check under the foam insulation and make sure that it was painted properly inside. I have been looking at used boats. The prices keep dropping. It is relatively easy to find a used boat for less than the cost of materials to build one. Here is a good example of one in NZ....I haven't seen it but from the pictures it looks OK. You could buy it and be in Fiji or Tonga in a few weeks :). http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1354217849.htm http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-1354217849.htm ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Re: Folks Boats Hi guys, I'm looking at at 39' steel Flolks boat. She's properly spray foamed & looks good on photo's. I had heard that some were not properly painted or spray foam insulated & the results were horrific, but IF properly dealt with were fine. But all of this is hearsay. Anyone familiar with these? Anything specific that I should look for? Also, on a rather sad note, Dove IV went down to Sanfransisco & was on the market for "some time".Not a nibble. Eventually, last December, given away to the Boy Scouts for a tax write off. Break your bloody heart. There is a hot deal on a 27' Swain on Saltspring if your 5'6" or less https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNHEzaWVuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDk2NjI1MzYz • Privacy https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html • Unsubscribe mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe • Terms of Use https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^ 2a Re: My boat Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:11 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Oneill" massagemagichands In addition to a roller look for an acupuncturist, preferably one certified in Sports Medicine Acupuncture (SMAC). Should be able to help. Thanks, Mike Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2017, at 6:16 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > > > Sad! Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for a while. > Greetings gang, > > > > I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. > > I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again. > > It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating. > > > > My options as I see it are: > > Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it > > Get people to help me finish it > > Or sell it off and move on > > > > I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. > > > > I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web, > > > > I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open. > > > > - Marlin > > > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (8) . Top ^ 2b Re: My boat Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:20 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 On could hire a student for cheap, to do the grinding, etc. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sad! Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for a while. Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again. It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating. My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it Or sell it off and move on I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web, I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open. - Marlin Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (8) . Top ^ 2c Re: My boat Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:56 pm (PDT) . Posted by: ninbubbas Mr. Swain, do you think you could help Marlin out? It looks like his boat is pretty far along and he has alot of the gear allready. It won't be more than a month or two of work to get her ready to splash for someone with your experience and skills. Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (8) . Top ^ 2d Re: My boat Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:53 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Victor Giraud" scoutervic I have hand both hands operated on, both middle fingers. Took a month to recover, but I couldn�t work without the surgery. Had my ring finger, left hand injected with cortisone, but it was a waste of time. Will have to get it done also. Only problem, my plastic surgeon moved. Operations only took 15-20 minutes each, and covered by my medical plan. (BC Med) I was a high priority, classed as a mobility issue, as no operation, no work. PS told me scandavaniavin heritage people are more susceptible to trigger finger. My daughter in law (Finnish) had to get her pinky done and she is a school teacher. I am glad I got them done. Vic Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 3:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: My boat On could hire a student for cheap, to do the grinding, etc. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sad! Totally unpredictable. . You are the first to have that experience.Putting it on hold, keeps your options open, for a while. Greetings gang, I've been building my Swain now for three years. During the second year I began to be plagued with trigger finger. It started as 8 of my 10 digits, but then slowly became just one digit. Then, over the next year it fluctuated between 1 and 5. Then I started to have issues with being able to close my hands. I got a cortisone shot in the fall of 2016 and symptoms went away briefly but came back immediately when I began working on my boat again in the spring, six months later. Even with stretching, even working for only short amounts of time (<4 hours a day), even when avoiding grinding, even when re-training my arms to have an extremely relaxed grip, I still have issues. Basically, anything that involves gripping now causes issues. I can't even hang from a fucking tree branch without my hands being fucked up the next day. Nowadays when I have a flair up, which is pretty much anytime I work on my boat, it takes anywhere from three days to three weeks to recover. I didn't do any work on it this winter and my hands almost fully recovered. But when I began again this spring, boom, right back at square one again. It has become obvious to me that I have caused some irreparable damage to my body. I am fairly certain that I will be discontinuing my project. I don't want to mess up my hands more than I already have. Sailing itself causes flair ups. At this rate I won't even be able to use the boat I am building. It is heartbreaking to have come so far. But I just don't know what to do. I loose sleep most nights fretting about my hands. Music is my first passion, the loss of my hands would be (to say the least), absolutely devastating. My options as I see it are: Put the boat in storage until who knows when I can, if ever, finish it Get people to help me finish it Or sell it off and move on I'm going to just let it sit for awhile and ponder what comes next. But I just wanted to let ya'll know that it is entirely possible to mess up your body building one of these boats. I don't think I really did anything wrong. I think that I just have a body type or bad genes that have caused me to be prone to these issues. In my early twenties I had some pretty big issues with tendonitis. I will post pictures soon of the current state of the boat. It is sad, I have the mast, boom, engine (rebuilt), blocks, lines, anchors (2 cqr, a bruce, danforth, rock anchor), chains, fenders, electrical, windows are all made, wind genny, solar panels, lead, coal tar epoxy, etc etc etc. and it's primed, deck hardware is tacked in place, the only things left to fab are engine install, fuel/water tanks, interior tabs, keel web, I'm keeping my head up. When one door closes, many more open. - Marlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (8) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group New Members 1 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34155|34141|2017-06-28 17:14:42|opuspaul|Re: My boat|Very sorry to hear about your problems with your hands.   I am not that familiar with trigger finger but when I read about it,  it sounds a lot like a similar problem I had with my feet.   I had really nasty inflamation and bad joints in my toes.   It was getting so bad that I couldn't walk on some days more than a few blocks without major pain and swelling.   At first they thought it might be gout but it ended up being arthritis.   The doctors said that there was not much they could do but put me on anti-inflamatories for the rest of my life.   They said that eventually they would need to fuse the joints together. I am an incredible skeptic and not one to fall for hocus pocus bullshit but I read the studies about krill oil and thought I would give it a try.   It has worked wonders.  I am not 100% and still get sore once in awhile but I can now walk all day without having to stop or turn back.  It took about 3 weeks before I started seeing any benefit.    If I now stop taking the krill, my symptoms come back in a few days.   There is a lot of scientific research going on about it with some encouraging studies regarding inflammation, cholesterol and brain health.  They are now studying some prescription only versions to treat cholesterol, high triglycerides and dementia.     Unlike fish oils, it is digested differently without the need of bile so it doesn't upset the stomach and is well tolerated.  It couldn't hurt giving it a try.   Good luck, Paulhttp://krilldoctor.com/krill-oil-scientific-research/---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Some friends and I are brainstorming some ideas.  Thanks for the support folks. I've already had a cortisone shot once. Seems obvious that I will need trigger finger surgery to get use of my right index finger back. Been almost two weeks since I worked on my boat and am just now able to close my left hand without it locking up. My right hand is better, but not 100%.  | 34156|34141|2017-06-29 17:02:28|brentswain38|Re: My boat|I probably would, if he were closer to home, but the US is one foreign country I avoid like the plague, as many others have begun doing, for good reason. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mr. Swain, do you think you could help Marlin out? It looks like his boat is pretty far along and he has alot of the gear allready. It won't be more than a month or two of work to get her ready to splash for someone with your experience and skills.| 34157|34141|2017-06-30 00:23:25|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|That is a shame. There are allways many reasons not to do good things for good people in need.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I probably would, if he were closer to home, but the US is one foreign country I avoid like the plague, as many others have begun doing, for good reason. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mr. Swain, do you think you could help Marlin out? It looks like his boat is pretty far along and he has alot of the gear allready. It won't be more than a month or two of work to get her ready to splash for someone with your experience and skills.| 34158|34141|2017-06-30 11:49:25|Matt Malone|Re: My boat| Ninbubbas, I do not think you know the full extent of either Marlin's or Brent's situation despite the impression you may have that they have no private life.   You do not know what they may have shared privately or to what extent Brent may have assisted already, or might assist in the future.  You do not know what type of assistance Marlin will truly desire once he has received everyone's advice, or what assistance he could best use or what outcomes might be achieved in any case.      There are many possible ways to help Marlin, many of those open to any member of this group, including Ninbubbas.   For instance, it seemed to me Marlin's post was as much a request for ideas as a notice that he might sell his project.   It seems an opportunity for someone willing to pay to get a head start on an origami project.   I do not know, Ninbubbas and others might have already offered the option to Marlin privately and it is not my business to ask them or expect them to reveal their offers or plans publicly.    Lets look at that measuring stick Ninbubbas seems to believe appropriate for someone else:  - flying half way across a continent,  - to a foreign country that is not friendly to people who truthfully admit at the border that they are coming to perform labour whether paid or not, (Or was the expectation that Brent should lie to gain entry?)  - and donating perhaps weeks of work If this is the measuring stick then, starting with Ninbubbas himself and even one other, Marlin should have plenty of assistance to bring his project to a much more complete stage.   Either that, or Ninbubbas is in a minority of one, and not only in his publicly implying an issue of character.  Or perhaps Ninbubbas should let each contribute in their own way, privately as they wish, and not publicly raise questions of character when he does not know.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 12:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: My boat     That is a shame. There are allways many reasons not to do good things for good people in need. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I probably would, if he were closer to home, but the US is one foreign country I avoid like the plague, as many others have begun doing, for good reason. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Mr. Swain, do you think you could help Marlin out? It looks like his boat is pretty far along and he has alot of the gear allready. It won't be more than a month or two of work to get her ready to splash for someone with your experience and skills. | 34159|34141|2017-06-30 12:14:40|Matt Malone|Re: My boat| For example: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/hamilton-church-volunteers-denied-entry-to-u-s-so-they-wouldn-t-steal-american-jobs-1.4022969 Hamilton church volunteers denied entry to U.S. so they ... www.cbc.ca A group of church volunteers from Hamilton heading south to do relief work were denied entry to the U.S. for fear they would take American construction jobs, said a ... I bet every one of them is now on the illegal labourer watch list.   Good luck ever trying to take their kid to Disneyland now.   Matt | 34160|34141|2017-06-30 13:39:39|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Mat what I do know is that Mr. Swain could finish that boat in a few weeks time. Theres no one on this bulletinboard that could do it better or faster. I think we all know that. It is my understanding that Mr. Swain is retired and has the time. So it seems like a great solution to me which is why I bring it up. I am perfectly willing to contribute some money into a plane ticket through PayPal or something for Mr. Swain to help Marlin out. like I said there are many reason to not help. So I will help if i can even though I am on a very low budget myself.| 34161|34141|2017-06-30 16:30:55|Hannu Venermo|Re: My boat - us - and a story|Matt .. nice post. I have an excellent understanding re. Mr Swain in his opinions re.USA. I also think I understand some of his reasons, and agree 100% with Brent Swain on this issue, for him. (Not necessarily for me, but for him.). The US today is an at-fault state for foreigners, litigious and overly rich-crowd oriented, for anything out of the common norm. The risks are all for the foreigner, the costs are outrageous, and no common-sense redress exists, like in about 100% of all other OECD countries. I have the greatest repect for Brent Swain, and very much agree with most of his ideals on sailing, living free of excess baggage, go-small/go-now attitude etc. He has been the greatest living advocate of his generation for steel boats, well-done DIY boats, and low-cost cruising. And Brent has been extremely generous with information, ideas, skill, methods. It is perfectly possible, and legal, for anyone private to go to the USA to work on a project You contracted elsewhere, of short duration, where You and or the counterparty will then leave. Boats are one example. Bikes are another. Motorhomes, I think, are another. Some US stuff is a gray area, legally. And it is perfectly possible to get a negative result, on something that is actually permitted. This also very much applies to most oecd countries, btw. Spain is an excellent example. Story. Longish... I bought some Harleys off ebay, USA, paid some money 1000$ or so for each upfront, with the owners very happy to wait 2 weeks till I get there, with the rest-of-money, with us agreeing they can keep it if I don´t show up. About 1996 or so.. 4 Harleys, Sporster 1000s. I then flew to the US, declared about 25k$ in cash at the border, as You are required to do. The customs/bp agent noted my tick, very politely and nicely asked me maybe 20 questions separately, we filled some additional data in less than 5 minutes. Did not want to see the money, any paperwork etc. since the reason, amounts, facts all add up. After that, I had a legal ticket to carry large amounts of cash around, and could quite legally work on the bikes, etc. anywhere in the usa. I still have the bikes. And in any traffic stop, any cop would listen, and possibly check, on the fact that I had a *legally imported cash* ticket with me. Possession of any papers is not important, it is the fact that the computer says You have declared/imported legal cash over 10k$. But if anyone in the US has a grudge against You and some money, they can file suit, liens, against You, and any foreigner may be arrested, held on bond, while not at fault, if You are unlucky. You can be held longer than Your 90 day visa, and then be prosecuted for overstaying, and then get a (US) criminal conviction for life and a 9 year prohibition on entering the USA. Details matter, but the above happens all the time, for various reasons. Another example. Some forfeiture laws are used in some (few) locations in the US, mostly against poor people out of state- by stopping most-all likely-looking cars, and searching for any major valuables, especially cash. If holding any real cash, this is typically confiscated, "pending investigation", and the holders may or may not go to jail and or be arrested, on suspicion of drugs-related offences. Essentially, the system then fines the holders some percentage like 25%, or takes all the cash, if the other party cannot afford lawyers, and does not have at-hand paperwork for the origin of the money. In my story, I had zero risk of such asset-forfeiture laws, because my declaration came from the us customs and border patrol. I did not even need it on me. Just state date of entry, amount, have them look it up .. as it is on them if they do no check federal documentation - and the federals have a very narrow view of any official not accepting their federal papers - ie computer entries. Cannot have better papers than that - and local cops most-never harras people with federal documentation. I chatted with 2 police on my 3600 mile drive in a pickup to collect 2 of the bikes from montana and colorado. One was a state trooper with the hat, very cool looking, who gave me a ticket for speeding (60$ +/- I was happy to be wrong, readily admitted it, and paid). He started very movie-like, impressive .. "I DID clock you at 80 m/ hr (whatever, not too much), and this IS a 60 m/hr zone, so I WILL BE issuing a ticket .. etc). I said Yes, Sir, sorry sir, no excuse, I was wrong, lets try to minimise the hassle, more or less. I was in the Finnish Air Force. "No excuse" is always a great way to start any contact. We talked about 10 minutes, he was a really nice guy, like most officials and cops are, if I make sure to demonstate that *I personally* am not there to bust their balls. Also had great experiences with banks, notaries, choppper guys, inglewood guys, bbq customers, all over the country. Several came to talk to me, since I had 2 harleys strapped to the pickup truck. They were really interested, and surprised, that a Finnish guy buys harleys, and ships them to Spain. 100% positive interactions, with maybe 200 people, over 3 weeks or so. Including areas like inglewood, california, biker bars or rough bars, etc. On 30/06/2017 17:17, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Or perhaps Ninbubbas should let each contribute in their own way, > privately as they wish, and not publicly raise questions of character > when he does not know. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 34162|34141|2017-07-01 08:21:57|Par Ragnar|Re: My boat - us - and a story|Salute Hannu, I brought a ship into Helsinki way back in the day. Got to pal around on a historical sailing barge while there and with some divers too. I enjoyed myself immensely whilst there Especially the disco downtown. Yeh, it was like 1980-'81 or there abouts. Wound up with twins my age dancing all night. Later that week a visitor from out of town offered to take me home to meet his daughters I mean family at his farm. I had to prep for departure routes and had to decline. Fates??? I probably would had gone AWOL if I did go with him. Perth Australia was similar, but I always remember Finland with fondness and a smile. I guess because it was summer??? HAR!! Cheers mate Par| 34163|34141|2017-07-01 13:12:33|Hannu Venermo|Re: My boat - us - and a story|thanks, mate. Summer in Finland was always great ... but I don´t really visit there anymore. On 01/07/2017 14:21, Par Ragnar ragnarpar@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Perth Australia was similar, but I always remember Finland with > fondness and a smile. I guess because it was summer??? HAR!! > > Cheers mate > Par -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34164|34141|2017-07-02 16:54:49|brentswain38|Re: My boat - us - and a story|Thanks Matt, Hannu.Looks like Ninbubbas is trying to bring the Bob Perry led "Lets all trash Brent Swain" campaign here. Perry tried it here  once , in his ongoing attempt to sabotage any discussion of origami boat building.He has wrecked a lot of discussions with his childish tactics (which, on one one site, involved his posting pictures of little boys, in response to a metal boat discussion.)Things smoothed out after we got rid of that sicko, and have run well here ever since, without his weird presence.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Matt .. nice post. I have an excellent understanding re. Mr Swain in his opinions re.USA. I also think I understand some of his reasons, and agree 100% with Brent Swain on this issue, for him. (Not necessarily for me, but for him.). The US today is an at-fault state for foreigners, litigious and overly rich-crowd oriented, for anything out of the common norm. The risks are all for the foreigner, the costs are outrageous, and no common-sense redress exists, like in about 100% of all other OECD countries. I have the greatest repect for Brent Swain, and very much agree with most of his ideals on sailing, living free of excess baggage, go-small/go-now attitude etc. He has been the greatest living advocate of his generation for steel boats, well-done DIY boats, and low-cost cruising. And Brent has been extremely generous with information, ideas, skill, methods. It is perfectly possible, and legal, for anyone private to go to the USA to work on a project You contracted elsewhere, of short duration, where You and or the counterparty will then leave. Boats are one example. Bikes are another. Motorhomes, I think, are another. Some US stuff is a gray area, legally. And it is perfectly possible to get a negative result, on something that is actually permitted. This also very much applies to most oecd countries, btw. Spain is an excellent example. Story. Longish... I bought some Harleys off ebay, USA, paid some money 1000$ or so for each upfront, with the owners very happy to wait 2 weeks till I get there, with the rest-of-money, with us agreeing they can keep it if I don´t show up. About 1996 or so.. 4 Harleys, Sporster 1000s. I then flew to the US, declared about 25k$ in cash at the border, as You are required to do. The customs/bp agent noted my tick, very politely and nicely asked me maybe 20 questions separately, we filled some additional data in less than 5 minutes. Did not want to see the money, any paperwork etc. since the reason, amounts, facts all add up. After that, I had a legal ticket to carry large amounts of cash around, and could quite legally work on the bikes, etc. anywhere in the usa. I still have the bikes. And in any traffic stop, any cop would listen, and possibly check, on the fact that I had a *legally imported cash* ticket with me. Possession of any papers is not important, it is the fact that the computer says You have declared/imported legal cash over 10k$. But if anyone in the US has a grudge against You and some money, they can file suit, liens, against You, and any foreigner may be arrested, held on bond, while not at fault, if You are unlucky. You can be held longer than Your 90 day visa, and then be prosecuted for overstaying, and then get a (US) criminal conviction for life and a 9 year prohibition on entering the USA. Details matter, but the above happens all the time, for various reasons. Another example. Some forfeiture laws are used in some (few) locations in the US, mostly against poor people out of state- by stopping most-all likely-looking cars, and searching for any major valuables, especially cash. If holding any real cash, this is typically confiscated, "pending investigation", and the holders may or may not go to jail and or be arrested, on suspicion of drugs-related offences. Essentially, the system then fines the holders some percentage like 25%, or takes all the cash, if the other party cannot afford lawyers, and does not have at-hand paperwork for the origin of the money. In my story, I had zero risk of such asset-forfeiture laws, because my declaration came from the us customs and border patrol. I did not even need it on me. Just state date of entry, amount, have them look it up .. as it is on them if they do no check federal documentation - and the federals have a very narrow view of any official not accepting their federal papers - ie computer entries. Cannot have better papers than that - and local cops most-never harras people with federal documentation. I chatted with 2 police on my 3600 mile drive in a pickup to collect 2 of the bikes from montana and colorado. One was a state trooper with the hat, very cool looking, who gave me a ticket for speeding (60$ +/- I was happy to be wrong, readily admitted it, and paid). He started very movie-like, impressive .. "I DID clock you at 80 m/ hr (whatever, not too much), and this IS a 60 m/hr zone, so I WILL BE issuing a ticket .. etc). I said Yes, Sir, sorry sir, no excuse, I was wrong, lets try to minimise the hassle, more or less. I was in the Finnish Air Force. "No excuse" is always a great way to start any contact. We talked about 10 minutes, he was a really nice guy, like most officials and cops are, if I make sure to demonstate that *I personally* am not there to bust their balls. Also had great experiences with banks, notaries, choppper guys, inglewood guys, bbq customers, all over the country. Several came to talk to me, since I had 2 harleys strapped to the pickup truck. They were really interested, and surprised, that a Finnish guy buys harleys, and ships them to Spain. 100% positive interactions, with maybe 200 people, over 3 weeks or so. Including areas like inglewood, california, biker bars or rough bars, etc. On 30/06/2017 17:17, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Or perhaps Ninbubbas should let each contribute in their own way, > privately as they wish, and not publicly raise questions of character > when he does not know. > > Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 34165|34141|2017-07-02 23:46:37|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Finnish twins in a disco is not bad duty. Meeting father not so good.| 34166|34141|2017-07-02 23:48:33|ninbubbas|Re: My boat - us - and a story|Mr. Swain, I don't have clue as to who the Bob Perry is. I thought just you could help Marlin. He needs it.| 34167|34141|2017-07-03 00:09:38|opuspaul|Re: My boat - us - and a story|Maybe Marlin does need help but Brent gave very valid reasons why it is not in his interests to do so.  As far as I am concerned, he has always been very generous of his time.  He owes you (or anyone else) nothing and really didn't even need to give a reason or even respond.  IMO, your attempts to place a guilt trip on Brent is out of line.     | 34168|34141|2017-07-03 00:41:26|ninbubbas|Re: My boat - us - and a story|I don't know what guilt tirp is meaning, but think I understand. Mr. Swain should feel guilt if he dosn't want to help Marlin? I believe you don't need to talk for Mr Swain. He is a man. All I have been said is that Mr Swain is the best person to help such a young man as Marlin. Mr Swain could finish this boat in a 2 weeks time. If he doesnot want to help it is his buisienss not ours.| 34169|34141|2017-07-03 15:59:13|lae52|Re: My boat|I think many US citizens would too if they could. Myself included.Dave| 34170|34170|2017-07-03 16:09:26|brentswain38|Viking Marine|  The owner of the last 36 I built, bought a "Rebuilt" Perkins from Bent at Viking Marine in Nanaimo,BC The starter was cracked .Bent said he must have dropped it .It was rusty inside the crack, showing it had been cracked a.long time.Since then the engine has been one problem after another.Still wont start. A friend sailed in with a Yanmar ,which Bent ,at Viking Marine had  sold to a friend, who couldn't  get any power out of it, so he sold it to another guy, who couldn't get any power out of it , and sold the boat to a lady who also couldn't get  any power out of it.She finally took the injector pump apart, and found that Bent had put one of the plungers in backwards. It had been running on two out of three cylinders since Bent first sold it. A friend on Cortes told me of a guy who took his diesel to Viking for servicing, and many months later, Bent hadn't touched it,so he took it back home.Recently, she told me of another guy who  bought a diesel from Viking, and simply had to abandon it and buy another , as it  never worked.   | 34171|34141|2017-07-03 16:31:49|Darren Bos|Re: My boat - us - and a story| No one, not even Brent, could "Finish" Marlin's boat in two weeks time.  The sad reality is that there are many many hundreds of hours of work in completing a boat, even once the hull is finished.  There is no way to parachute someone in to save this project.  Brent and others have described very valid reasons why it would be completely impractical for Brent to try.  Ninbubbas, I think you need to actually try and help Marlin so you better understand the reality of the situation. There are lots of great things about Origami boats and building a boat in general, but the reality is that if your project stalls partway through you will be in a difficult position.  There is a much smaller pool of buyers willing to consider a partly finished boat than those that want a completed boat.  Paying someone to complete a boat is not at all cost effective compared to the many used boats around.  A metal boat you've built yourself is the gold standard, but there are lots of folks out in other types of boats having a really great time. Marlin, I think you did something worthwhile in trying to build a boat and I hope you find a way to complete it.  If not, the experience will undoubtedly give you ideas of the kind of boat you would like to pursue otherwise. On 17-07-02 09:41 PM, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I don't know what guilt tirp is meaning, but think I understand. Mr. Swain should feel guilt if he dosn't want to help Marlin? I believe you don't need to talk for Mr Swain. He is a man. All I have been said is that Mr Swain is the best person to help such a young man as Marlin. Mr Swain could finish this boat in a 2 weeks time. If he doesnot want to help it is his buisienss not ours. Posted by: ninbubbas@... | 34172|34141|2017-07-03 17:50:43|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Why do you say this? Mr Swain says many times that he launched his ownboat 30 days after the steel comes with painting and interior done in less than another 30. Marlins boat is very far along with all the gear ready. Of course Mr Swain could finish this boat just like his own. Nomor than 2 or 3 weeks. I think you understimate Mr Swain. He is not telling the lies.| 34173|34141|2017-07-03 18:29:13|opuspaul|Re: My boat|It took me six years to build my boat to launch stage working nights and weekends.   I probably averaged 20 to 22 hours a week, working on my own.   I wasted a lot of time commuting to the site, rebuilding old gear and scrounging for metal scraps or other building materials on weekends because I had no money.   Knowing what I know now, if I was doing it all again, I would build a much simpler boat and do it much faster with a better equipped shop living on site.  Having said that, I still bet it would take me 2 years to build to a work boat standard working full time.  Maybe 3 to get it fully equipped and set up for long term living in remote areas offshore.  Paul| 34174|34141|2017-07-03 19:08:10|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Mr Swain finished his 31 boat in under 3 months time with paint, rig, detailing interior everything, and then off sailing. I don't understand why it takes you so long. This is why I thought Mr Swain could finish Marlins boat like he did his own, in just a couple weeks since Marlins boat is so close to finish.| 34175|34141|2017-07-03 21:59:08|opuspaul|Re: My boat|You really need to walk the walk to understand how many hours goes in to building a boat.  Most people I met sailing offshore who built their own boats took much longer than me.    The fastest boats you acn build are probably unlined and simple sheet plywood boats.  There have been hundreds if not thousands of Wharram catamarans built and they still can take people years.  For instance, his Pahi 31 is about 1100 hours to build.  That is 27 weeks at 40 hours a week for a very simple build.  The Pahi 42 is more than double that.   These are very simple and basic boats. Anyway, it would be interesting to hear how long it took everyone to build one of Brent's boats.    I would be surprised if there are that many that were built by amateurs in less than 2 years, even working full time.  Like I said before, I built the 36 footer in 6 years part time.   Although I launched it and was able to sail it  and motor it, I wouldn't have considered it finished.   A couple working together would do it quicker than me.  Some people are machines and can work 12 to 15 hours a day, month after month.   For others, life can get in the way.   Most people have jobs and need to make money to finance the building.   I think Brent did a lot of work in the water on his boat after launch.   I can't remember how long Winston Bushnell took to build his 36 footers but he is very experienced and would be a good benchmark for a high speed build at a reasonable build quality.   Few people would be as quick as him.  I am sure there was no way he did them in 2 or 3 months.  I think his first one took several years and he had built a boat before and knew exactly what he wanted.    There are lot of decisions made along the way that can add build time.   The level of finish on home built boats varies widely.    Most people wouldn't be happy with the looks of a super fast build boat with unground welds and a painted ply interior even if it was perfectly functional.    If you are married or have  a partner, their decisions can really impact what is acceptable.   For instance, a fridge and freezer wasn't a luxury, it was a necessity for me.   I think it took me a week of messing around just to design and install that using the guts of an old reefer unit I found in a junk yard.   I think I spent a month making my own opening portholes.  I know better now and would never do that again.    I spent a good week stripping down and refinishing a used aluminum mast.  I didn't like the paint job on my new engine so I spent several days stripping it down and repainting it.    Integral wiring, electronics, bookshelves, none of this is necessary but nice to have.  I spent weeks stripping and refinishing old wood that I got a good price for lining the interior.I could go on and on but it is easy to let weeks or months turn into years.....there are hundreds of jobs and only 24 hours in a day.    Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mr Swain finished his 31 boat in under 3 months time with paint, rig, detailing interior everything, and then off sailing. I don't understand why it takes you so long. This is why I thought Mr Swain could finish Marlins boat like he did his own, in just a couple weeks since Marlins boat is so close to finish.| 34176|34141|2017-07-04 08:58:25|prairiemaidca|Re: My boat|Very well stated Paul.  It is a very huge task to create from scratch a 36ft. boat, even one as easily created as a Swain.  Prairie Maid took me over 10 years of work to get her finished and launched.  The boat hauler I hired to come out to Alberta and take her to B.C. made an interesting comment just before he left my house.  He told me that he hauls lots of boats all over north America and very few of the homemade projects are finished and launched by the person who originally started the build.  Some have been bought and sold multiply times before they see the water.  Martin...l | 34177|34141|2017-07-04 10:51:15|Hannu Venermo|Re: My boat|Paul .. You have it right. But about 90% of "build-time" is related to - "systems" - cosmetics - materials handling - logistics - lack of the proper or efficient tooling, meaning workarounds - finances / scrounging / lack of tools/materials/bits Making a hull can be fast - with the Brent origami system. Very well proven. Making/buying/reconditioning the major accessories for the hull, can be fast. Hatches, portlights, winches, etc. Supports, all the n little details. Making excellent cosmetic finishes, can be fast. All above can be, potentially, 20x faster than they normally are, if one has access to industrial tools, equipment, skills, parts. It is quite easy/cheap to make a 200-point wiring harness. Quite easy to weld, with an industrial mig of 1.5 mm wire, at 10x the speed. 30x faster to assemble pieces cnc laser-cut, that slot into each other. The cnc laser-cut or plasma-cut metal pieces are usually the same price, or cheaper, than most can buy the material itself. Today. This was not the case 6-9 years ago. Likewise, if buying smart, short-term use of industrial facilities can be very cheap, or potentially free. E. Things like acting as night-watchman, living-in, an industrial facility between owners. For 1-3 months, only. With 3-phase power, free, lights, free, 24 hours access, free, industrial crane on top for 30-40 tons, lift doors, docks, etc., parking, free, security, free. Rental of major tools is very cheap, sometimes. This might allow things like pneumatic sanders/grinders, allowing finishing of welds at very high production rates. 10-20x faster/better. Potentially, lift hull and rotate to only work on top surfaces. a 200 or 500 pack of rated marine connectors, industrial mro supply, with heat shrink sleaves, double insulated, costs == 30x less than hobby/yacht stuff per unit, and is very fast to use. I made a career/business of things like that- essentially high efficiency in various fields, in the past. In my opinion, the best/cheapest/most efficient path is; 1. collect most-everything needed for a *running* usable work-boat, in advance. Written plans, on what to do, how to do, when to do, how long in work hours, how much it costs, etc. E. Hull-blasting-priming(n)-painting. Firring, foaming, structure, wiring, hvac, tubes/pipes/grey water/black water/through hulls/tanks/ engines/tanks/connections/etc hotel load systems, wc/showers/plumbing/cooking/waste/tanks/valves base internals -internal sheet goods optional.. internal fittings, electronics, instruments, etc.. E. Wire a 200-point wiring harness, near/at a structure like the engine, major stuff like batteries, alternators, etc. for instruments. Very easy, fast. Dont worry about connections, for now. Later, you can connect whatever instruments/electronics You want, at your leisure, and always have 50.. odd extra wires/connectors free. Use things like 50-connector cables, 4 -of, etc. Telephony stuff lasts 100 years, Cheap. Colour coded, cheap. Industrial. Terminate stuff in air-tight industrial enclosures, out of sight. Later, You can or not connect all sorts of engine gages, instruments, whatever, and never need to pull a cable in hard-to-access wiring ducts. E. Doing hoses, pipes, valves, tanks when the hull is semi finished is really fast, and really cheap. Add a few extra pvc pressure-rated tubes, for whatever. 30-50-80 mm D. 8 € / 3m for 10 bars. These can or might become deck fills, extra evacuation for bilge pumps, pumpouts for tanks, new fills for freshwater, whatever, who knows. Or maybe Watermaker stuff. Put them in, foam in place, done. A simple cap, greased, both ends. Solvent-weld whatever You need when or if You need it, later. I am not trying to give direct advice. I am trying to point out how pre-planning, and the right industrial kit, cheap, saves a vast amount of labour, improves quality, is very cheap, is very efficient. Likewise, re: building costs and time.. My very firm opinion based on doing many industrial-type builds efficiently = fast.. I would suggest planning on 2-shifts at the industrial facility. 1 or 2 helpers, per shift. Doing most of the manual work. Have the paid helpers working, 2 each, 2 x 8 hours per day, 2 shifts, total 16 hour days, for 30 days. This might cost 3-4-6k$... depending on where You are.. But it will get You almost 2 years of work, of yours alone, at 30-60-120k $ total value. But only, and only if, You have the industrial-capacity tools on-site, the needed bits/stuff/kit, etc. That is why You need to have the compressor, blasting, plumbing, connectors, grinders, paint-or-foam stuff etc on-site, at certain points. Because industrial tools-with-workers leverage productivity 20x, vs 5x You alone. Most of my post refers a bit more to yachts/bigger boats in the 39 ft++ range. As work scales to cube of length... bigger sailboats, self-builds, usually fail, after years of work and lots of $$. On 04/07/2017 00:29, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Having said that, I still bet it would take me 2 years to build to a > work boat standard working full time. Maybe 3 to get it fully > equipped and set up for long term living in remote areas offshore. Paul -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34178|34141|2017-07-04 11:07:35|Matt Malone|Re: My boat| Part of the problem is the differing definitions of what "finished" is.   Brent has written of working as a welder in general fabrication companies, in addition to all his origami.   Brent gives every indication of being very decisive.  Having worked on many origami boats,  he can tell just by looking at it, and experience what is going to work, and decisiveness helps him get to it.   He writes frequently about work-boat solutions that are effective.   I recall several times Brent wrote of building his cabin rough, out of scrap plywood.   Certainly when the lights are out and you are sleeping at night, one cannot tell the difference between mahogany, teak&holly and waterproof plywood and scrap paint.  Certainly the sea cannot tell the difference.   He has given me insight into some tricks.   He talked of using door skins as 1:1 template material.    Reading Brent's writing, I learned about a "jog stick" as a numbers-free way of matching a complex interior shape.   All of these things likely allow Brent to create a workable boat far faster that anyone else, but only if Brent answers to no one, and it is Brent's boat in the end.   Everyone else wants to build their own boat, to their own priorities.   A heck of a lot more finished inside seems to be more of a priority to everyone else.    Everyone else who has not done it a number of times will have uncertainty as to how they want it, and then uncertainty as to how they are going to do it.   I am sure we have all spent a day "working" on something and finished the day with very little work product and more certainty of what we will do the next day.   I get the feeling Brent does not have the patience for a lot of this.   Frankly, I have not met any contractor of any variety that has much patience for the uncertainty and shifting plans of the client.   I have seen pictures of Brent helping people get the hull cut, curved and pulled and tacked together.   From a distance, it will seem a boat has appeared out of nowhere, with nothing but the material that becomes the boat involved -- no jig, bracing or scaffold.  After that, builders seem to work on alone.   Compared to other methods, this seems to be a lot less work, and a lot less wasteful.   That seems the extent of the build-advantage of origami... after that, everything else takes just as long, and making up ones mind about 300 things takes a really long time.   It is possible Marlin might choose a far less finished stage as his goal, and sell his project.   A hull that is sealed top and bottom, and floats with weather-durable paint inside and out, and the remaining equipment in boxes in the hull is a tidy package that would appeal to more buyers.   It need not have hand rails, or at lot of fittings outside, and nothing inside.  It can be floated and towed, and then someone else can decide how they want to finish it.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2017 8:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: My boat     Very well stated Paul.  It is a very huge task to create from scratch a 36ft. boat, even one as easily created as a Swain.  Prairie Maid took me over 10 years of work to get her finished and launched.  The boat hauler I hired to come out to Alberta and take her to B.C. made an interesting comment just before he left my house.  He told me that he hauls lots of boats all over north America and very few of the homemade projects are finished and launched by the person who originally started the build.  Some have been bought and sold multiply times before they see the water.  Martin...l  | 34179|34141|2017-07-04 12:01:28|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Hannu IF starting gfrom scratch how much would you estimate will cost the tools and eqipment I'll need to have? Im very surprised at the costs and times you men are saying. It is far more than I understood to involve from Mr Swain's writings.| 34180|34141|2017-07-04 14:59:04|brentswain38|Re: My boat|When I launched my boat, 30 days after the steel arrived, it was a bare shell. It took another ten days on the beach ,to finish the steel work ,long days working full time ,up to 9 hours a day. I had scrounged most of the stainless needed, and had made up a lot of the detail bits and pieces well in advance. Then it took another ten days to ballast and rough the interior in ,which  I had pre-cut the previous year  ,using an existing 31 for the patterns.That was roughing in  the bigger parts, floor,  bulkheads, bunks, counter top, shelves etc . Another ten getting her rigged and sailing. Then I moved aboard , and did the finer work, like covering the foam, trim, counter top finish,  etc,while living aboard and cruising, while trying to sell my last boat. I strongly believe in getting a boat liveable and cruising first,  and then doing the refinement ,while getting some use out of the boat. Sure my boat was crude and basic, for a while ,but I had no rent to  pay, so money  I would have paid on rent ,went into progress on the boat.I also had no deadlines any more .That made finishing a pleasant pastime ,while cruising, instead of a chore. It was 5 years later, and two  trips to Haida Gwai and one to  Mexico, before I  installed my first  electrical  system, piece by piece, while cruising.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Why do you say this? Mr Swain says many times that he launched his ownboat 30 days after the steel comes with painting and interior done in less than another 30. Marlins boat is very far along with all the gear ready. Of course Mr Swain could finish this boat just like his own. Nomor than 2 or 3 weeks. I think you understimate Mr Swain. He is not telling the lies.| 34181|34141|2017-07-04 15:29:32|brentswain38|Re: My boat|Mark and Jean launched Costa Vida one year after the steel arrived, bulkheads and bare foam inside , well painted and rigged, engine in. It took a couple of months to get the interior finished . Iron  Butterfly was begun in early February, launched in late April and cruising in late May. They headed for California that same November. They had both the bank and the tax man after them,  so they were very motivated .The first 36 I built was begun in June, and launched in November , sailing a few days after launching. She was extremely basic, but functional . Many people go overboard on their first  cruising boat, using all new materials ,and wasting a huge amount of time and money on things which don't matter much, something they only realize after they get out cruising. They mostly say their next boat would be  far more basic, and quicker to build.Without the cruising experience you don't know what you need  and what you can  do without. Not understanding function makes you waste a lot of time on cosmetics. The sea does not treat you kinder ,based on your cosmetic  perfectionism.Friends cruised the Cape Horn and Straits of Magellan area , along with considerable time spent in the Falklands . After several years, they returned to BC with  much of the stuff they had been told they had to have ,still in the boxes unused.Don't expect to work part time ,and make the same progress as someone working full time,especially some one who has cruised enough to know exactly what he needs and wants, and has made all such decisions well in advance.Your first boat is half work and half decision making ,unless you have done the latter well in advance. An alternative is to simply follow the plans ,and don't waste time redesigning things, especially in a well proven design, based on decades of feed back from those who cruise decades in them.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :You really need to walk the walk to understand how many hours goes in to building a boat.  Most people I met sailing offshore who built their own boats took much longer than me.    The fastest boats you acn build are probably unlined and simple sheet plywood boats.  There have been hundreds if not thousands of Wharram catamarans built and they still can take people years.  For instance, his Pahi 31 is about 1100 hours to build.  That is 27 weeks at 40 hours a week for a very simple build.  The Pahi 42 is more than double that.   These are very simple and basic boats. Anyway, it would be interesting to hear how long it took everyone to build one of Brent's boats.    I would be surprised if there are that many that were built by amateurs in less than 2 years, even working full time.  Like I said before, I built the 36 footer in 6 years part time.   Although I launched it and was able to sail it  and motor it, I wouldn't have considered it finished.   A couple working together would do it quicker than me.  Some people are machines and can work 12 to 15 hours a day, month after month.   For others, life can get in the way.   Most people have jobs and need to make money to finance the building.   I think Brent did a lot of work in the water on his boat after launch.   I can't remember how long Winston Bushnell took to build his 36 footers but he is very experienced and would be a good benchmark for a high speed build at a reasonable build quality.   Few people would be as quick as him.  I am sure there was no way he did them in 2 or 3 months.  I think his first one took several years and he had built a boat before and knew exactly what he wanted.    There are lot of decisions made along the way that can add build time.   The level of finish on home built boats varies widely.    Most people wouldn't be happy with the looks of a super fast build boat with unground welds and a painted ply interior even if it was perfectly functional.    If you are married or have  a partner, their decisions can really impact what is acceptable.   For instance, a fridge and freezer wasn't a luxury, it was a necessity for me.   I think it took me a week of messing around just to design and install that using the guts of an old reefer unit I found in a junk yard.   I think I spent a month making my own opening portholes.  I know better now and would never do that again.    I spent a good week stripping down and refinishing a used aluminum mast.  I didn't like the paint job on my new engine so I spent several days stripping it down and repainting it.    Integral wiring, electronics, bookshelves, none of this is necessary but nice to have.  I spent weeks stripping and refinishing old wood that I got a good price for lining the interior.I could go on and on but it is easy to let weeks or months turn into years.....there are hundreds of jobs and only 24 hours in a day.    Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mr Swain finished his 31 boat in under 3 months time with paint, rig, detailing interior everything, and then off sailing. I don't understand why it takes you so long. This is why I thought Mr Swain could finish Marlins boat like he did his own, in just a couple weeks since Marlins boat is so close to finish.| 34182|34141|2017-07-04 15:33:54|brentswain38|Re: My boat|Systems can be extremely simple. A composing head , a sink drain , a  bilge pump, and a galley pump ,  is what my plumbing system consists of. A couple of kerosene lamps is what my lighting system originally consisted of for the first  5 years,after which I installed my first electrical  system, costing under $50. Cosmetics can be embellished later, while  cruising. Steel suppliers usually deliver ,as do building suppliers .Scrounging materials can be done years in advance. The sooner you start, the less it will probably cost. Having as much as possible pre built or pre scrounged before starting the hull , makes you less likely to run into financial  problems mid project. Ditto tools ,which are extremely simple in an origami  steel boat building project.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Paul .. You have it right. But about 90% of "build-time" is related to - "systems" - cosmetics - materials handling - logistics - lack of the proper or efficient tooling, meaning workarounds - finances / scrounging / lack of tools/materials/bits Making a hull can be fast - with the Brent origami system. Very well proven. Making/buying/reconditioning the major accessories for the hull, can be fast. Hatches, portlights, winches, etc. Supports, all the n little details. Making excellent cosmetic finishes, can be fast. All above can be, potentially, 20x faster than they normally are, if one has access to industrial tools, equipment, skills, parts. It is quite easy/cheap to make a 200-point wiring harness. Quite easy to weld, with an industrial mig of 1.5 mm wire, at 10x the speed. 30x faster to assemble pieces cnc laser-cut, that slot into each other. The cnc laser-cut or plasma-cut metal pieces are usually the same price, or cheaper, than most can buy the material itself. Today. This was not the case 6-9 years ago. Likewise, if buying smart, short-term use of industrial facilities can be very cheap, or potentially free. E. Things like acting as night-watchman, living-in, an industrial facility between owners. For 1-3 months, only. With 3-phase power, free, lights, free, 24 hours access, free, industrial crane on top for 30-40 tons, lift doors, docks, etc., parking, free, security, free. Rental of major tools is very cheap, sometimes. This might allow things like pneumatic sanders/grinders, allowing finishing of welds at very high production rates. 10-20x faster/better. Potentially, lift hull and rotate to only work on top surfaces. a 200 or 500 pack of rated marine connectors, industrial mro supply, with heat shrink sleaves, double insulated, costs == 30x less than hobby/yacht stuff per unit, and is very fast to use. I made a career/business of things like that- essentially high efficiency in various fields, in the past. In my opinion, the best/cheapest/most efficient path is; 1. collect most-everything needed for a *running* usable work-boat, in advance. Written plans, on what to do, how to do, when to do, how long in work hours, how much it costs, etc. E. Hull-blasting-priming(n)-painting. Firring, foaming, structure, wiring, hvac, tubes/pipes/grey water/black water/through hulls/tanks/ engines/tanks/connections/etc hotel load systems, wc/showers/plumbing/cooking/waste/tanks/valves base internals -internal sheet goods optional.. internal fittings, electronics, instruments, etc.. E. Wire a 200-point wiring harness, near/at a structure like the engine, major stuff like batteries, alternators, etc. for instruments. Very easy, fast. Dont worry about connections, for now. Later, you can connect whatever instruments/electronics You want, at your leisure, and always have 50.. odd extra wires/connectors free. Use things like 50-connector cables, 4 -of, etc. Telephony stuff lasts 100 years, Cheap. Colour coded, cheap. Industrial. Terminate stuff in air-tight industrial enclosures, out of sight. Later, You can or not connect all sorts of engine gages, instruments, whatever, and never need to pull a cable in hard-to-access wiring ducts. E. Doing hoses, pipes, valves, tanks when the hull is semi finished is really fast, and really cheap. Add a few extra pvc pressure-rated tubes, for whatever. 30-50-80 mm D. 8 € / 3m for 10 bars. These can or might become deck fills, extra evacuation for bilge pumps, pumpouts for tanks, new fills for freshwater, whatever, who knows. Or maybe Watermaker stuff. Put them in, foam in place, done. A simple cap, greased, both ends. Solvent-weld whatever You need when or if You need it, later. I am not trying to give direct advice. I am trying to point out how pre-planning, and the right industrial kit, cheap, saves a vast amount of labour, improves quality, is very cheap, is very efficient. Likewise, re: building costs and time.. My very firm opinion based on doing many industrial-type builds efficiently = fast.. I would suggest planning on 2-shifts at the industrial facility. 1 or 2 helpers, per shift. Doing most of the manual work. Have the paid helpers working, 2 each, 2 x 8 hours per day, 2 shifts, total 16 hour days, for 30 days. This might cost 3-4-6k$... depending on where You are.. But it will get You almost 2 years of work, of yours alone, at 30-60-120k $ total value. But only, and only if, You have the industrial-capacity tools on-site, the needed bits/stuff/kit, etc. That is why You need to have the compressor, blasting, plumbing, connectors, grinders, paint-or-foam stuff etc on-site, at certain points. Because industrial tools-with-workers leverage productivity 20x, vs 5x You alone. Most of my post refers a bit more to yachts/bigger boats in the 39 ft++ range. As work scales to cube of length... bigger sailboats, self-builds, usually fail, after years of work and lots of $$. On 04/07/2017 00:29, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Having said that, I still bet it would take me 2 years to build to a > work boat standard working full time. Maybe 3 to get it fully > equipped and set up for long term living in remote areas offshore. Paul -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34183|34141|2017-07-04 15:43:35|brentswain38|Re: My boat|When you come to a point of indecision ,go around it and do  something else, to keep  progress happening, while giving what stopped you,  time to  resolve. Get  back to it later. The sequence of doing things is not always that important. Maintaining progress is.When you get so bogged down , you cant think straight ,pushing your self accomplishes nothing. Take a holiday, and when you get back,  you can accomplish more in the first  couple of days ,than you would have in a week, before the holiday.| 34184|34184|2017-07-04 16:36:26|northcanoe|Origamiboats DVD back in production|Hi Folks, I am happy to announce that my Origamiboats DVD Vol. 1 is back "in print" and available again, after I sorted out some technical issues with my DVD burner. For those of you unfamiliar with the video, it's a detailed documentation of all the steps involved with construction of a 36' twin-keeled Swain from sheet steel to bare hull stage. It was filmed with Brent Swain and myself in 2005, has a lot of tips and tricks that help these hulls go together efficiently. If you want to order the two disc set, please contact me direct at origamiboats@... Regards, Alex Christie| 34185|34141|2017-07-04 16:53:46|opuspaul|Re: My boat| I am not sure I could do it much different than I did.   I couldn't scrounge or do much in advance because I was in school and penniless when I graduated.  As soon as I got out of school, I moved out to the west coast from Calgary and got the best job I could find at the time.  It was 1985 and paid $1200 a month.  I rented a room in the basement of a house for $150 a month.   It was horrible...dark and full of cock roaches but I didn't care because it was cheap.   I rode my bike to work and saved every penny I could.  In one year, I managed to save about $8000 which was enough to rent a small space in a builders lot, buy some tools and order the steel.    Somewhere in the middle of this, I also got married.   I was also supporting my wife and paying for her school.  I spent years living pay check to pay check with almost zero savings.  Sometimes I had time and no money, other times I had some money but no time.  I never had both money and time.  But I was motivated.Your point about making decisions is a valid one.  It is easy to get led astray.    I had sailed offshore before and had some of my own ideas on what I wanted.   I had a few friends with a lot of offshore experience.  This really helped the decision process.   There was a guy building next to me who kept ripping things apart and rebuilding whenever someone came along and offered a different opinion.  He lacked confidence and was too easily swayed.  He had been at it for almost 20 years.   I really think it is a good idea to go crewing on a few boats offshore before building.  You never know, you might not like sailing or find you can't handle it.   Brent's book came out after I built my boat.   It would have helped a lot.   If I was doing it again, I wouldn't spend so much time doing fancy woodwork.  I am actually quite fast at woodwork but the wood finish still added a lot of weight and a lot of time.   I would just use ply and buy a good air compressor and sprayer and  give her hell.  The only varnished wood would be some trim.   I would get an aluminum welder and make alloy hatches rather than teak.  I love the look of my beautiful teak hatches and they are functional but it is not worth the time and money.   I would not spend the time on opening portholes. They are not needed on a small boat with large hatches.  I  would only have opening ports at the galley and head with a couple of dorade vents for when you are at sea. Running a few conduits inside the boat so that you can run wiring later is a good idea.  With LED lights, it is very simple and cheap to wire a boat now.  You can use very small wires and there are a variety of good lights available.I have heard from others and tend to agree that only 10% of people who start a boat finish it and only 10% of those actually sail offshore.   These are not good odds.  Brent's methods are valid ones and can help you sway the odds in your favor.   Building a boat is a wonderful thing to do but you really need to be motivated and have the desire to create something special that you can't find somewhere else.  Boats used to cost as much as house but are now very cheap.   Financially, you can buy boats for less than the cost of materials so it now makes no sense unless you are stubborn or very picky as to what you want :).   If you aren't sure, don't even think about starting.   Buy something used and fix it up.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When you come to a point of indecision ,go around it and do  something else, to keep  progress happening, while giving what stopped you,  time to  resolve. Get  back to it later. The sequence of doing things is not always that important. Maintaining progress is.When you get so bogged down , you cant think straight ,pushing your self accomplishes nothing. Take a holiday, and when you get back,  you can accomplish more in the first  couple of days ,than you would have in a week, before the holiday.| 34186|34141|2017-07-04 17:15:02|Chris Salayka|Re: My boat|Brent – great advice, the best advice – progress, forward, around, under, over but maintain progress!  thanks, Chris  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 12:44 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: My boat    When you come to a point of indecision ,go around it and do  something else, to keep  progress happening, while giving what stopped you,  time to  resolve. Get  back to it later. The sequence of doing things is not always that important. Maintaining progress is.When you get so bogged down , you cant think straight ,pushing your self accomplishes nothing. Take a holiday, and when you get back,  you can accomplish more in the first  couple of days ,than you would have in a week, before the holiday. Virus-free. www.avast.com | 34187|34141|2017-07-04 20:56:51|garyhlucas|Re: My boat - us - and a story| On the subject of finishing out a boat quickly. I own an Etap 26 fiberglass boat.  It has some rather clever features, one of which is the way all the cabinet work below is done. All of the cabinet doors were simply routed out of the cabinet faces with rounded corners.  Then the openings and the doors were trimmed with veneer.  The hinges, which I have been unable to find a new source fo,r have both leaves bent 90 degrees.  The hinge pin is flush with the surface and the screws are in the back of the door and frame.  A U shaped slot is cut in the door for the latch which is a round brass spool with a finger hole.  A spring in a hole pushes it out so the flanges engage the cabinet, and a keeper strip on the edge of the door keeps it from falling out.  It looks quite nice and is very functional.  It also perfect for a CNC router to cut out and there is no wasted material.  A couple hours on a CNC router could give you the entire interior of a boat ready to finish and install.   | 34188|34141|2017-07-04 21:01:58|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Mr Swain, I conversed in emails with Mark the owner of Costa Vida because I think she is a great build and very high quality. You are not quite correct about their boat. Yes they had boat in the water in a year but took another 2 years to finish so 3 years in all working full time on the boat. That's much better than 10 years but still long time and much longer than you said. The other examples you say where it takes 3 to six months is more what I thought the advantage to the origami boat was. That's what I hope for., crusing fast and cheap But these men saying 6 years or 10 years is concerning. That is a very long time to not be crusign.| 34189|34141|2017-07-04 21:09:04|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Yes I believe you. That is why I tell these men that you could finish Marlin's boat in 2-3 weeks. You have done it!| 34190|34141|2017-07-04 21:20:39|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Paul, thank you much for your message. I expecially appreciate your last paragraph. I didn't know about those percentages. And since you have done it, it is very good to hear the truth. I like the idea of steel boats but I don't want to spend many years working when I can cruise. I thought it was fast and easy. Knowing how expensive and long time it takes for the origami boat and seeing your advice about buying used and fixing, I think I will focus on findinga good used boat. I want to cruise not work for many years. Thank you for your words.| 34191|34141|2017-07-04 22:08:48|Matt Malone|Re: My boat| Absolutely, 10 years is a long time to go without cruising.  People will leave without interiors, without a motor, using a little outboard to clear the jetty.   A solar panel and batteries will run required nav lights.  That wont take 10 years.  Weigh everything you add to the boat, both in time and cost holding you back.   Alternately, buy a crap fibreglass boat really cheap, and do some very limited cruising until you have a little more money or time, or have time for a cruising lifestyle. Matt From: ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 21:02 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: My boat To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Mr Swain, I conversed in emails with Mark the owner of Costa Vida because I think she is a great build and very high quality. You are not quite correct about their boat. Yes they had boat in the water in a year but took another 2 years to finish so 3 years in all working full time on the boat. That's much better than 10 years but still long time and much longer than you said. The other examples you say where it takes 3 to six months is more what I thought the advantage to the origami boat was. That's what I hope for., crusing fast and cheap But these men saying 6 years or 10 years is concerning. That is a very long time to not be crusign. | 34192|34141|2017-07-05 01:05:31|Maxime Camirand|Re: My boat - us - and a story|I'd like to see some photos of the interior you describe, if you don't mind.Best,Max On 5 July 2017 at 08:56, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   On the subject of finishing out a boat quickly. I own an Etap 26 fiberglass boat.  It has some rather clever features, one of which is the way all the cabinet work below is done. All of the cabinet doors were simply routed out of the cabinet faces with rounded corners.  Then the openings and the doors were trimmed with veneer.  The hinges, which I have been unable to find a new source fo,r have both leaves bent 90 degrees.  The hinge pin is flush with the surface and the screws are in the back of the door and frame.  A U shaped slot is cut in the door for the latch which is a round brass spool with a finger hole.  A spring in a hole pushes it out so the flanges engage the cabinet, and a keeper strip on the edge of the door keeps it from falling out.  It looks quite nice and is very functional.  It also perfect for a CNC router to cut out and there is no wasted material.  A couple hours on a CNC router could give you the entire interior of a boat ready to finish and install.   | 34193|34141|2017-07-05 16:11:58|brentswain38|Re: My boat|Mark went to work for several months in the first year, and did so more in the following years.He never worked full time for any year on the boat and he used all new materials. Nothing was pre built before we started the hull.As Paul has pointed out, other backyard builders in his area said origami would have saved a year off their projects.Again, build and scrounge as much as possible,  BEFORE  starting the hull.| 34194|34141|2017-07-05 16:19:08|brentswain38|Re: My boat|Time saved by origami construction has meant that close to 90% of the boats I have pulled together and those done by Evan,have been finished and sailed by their original owners.Yes, if you don't have a boat, go buy one and get cruising. A new steel boat is for when you have many  miles in your wake, and are ready for something better and safer, based on many miles of cruising experience.You can do a lot of planning , scrounging and stashing,while cruising.| 34195|34141|2017-07-05 16:21:04|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Absolutely, 10 years is a long time to go without cruising.  People will leave without interiors, without a motor, using a little outboard to clear the jetty.   A solar panel and batteries will run required nav lights.  That wont take 10 years.  Weigh everything you add to the boat, both in time and cost holding you back.   Alternately, buy a crap fibreglass boat really cheap, and do some very limited cruising until you have a little more money or time, or have time for a cruising lifestyle. Matt Well put ! Right on! | 34196|34141|2017-07-05 16:33:24|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Mr Swain, I am sorry and don't mean to argue but that is not what Mark told me directly. He said he and his wife worked on the boat full time for the 3 years. The exception to this only was 2-3 months each year that Mark would have to work to get money for the boat. To me 9 to 10months a year of full time effort is full time unless you are made of money and Im not. I guess another way to look is that they spent 27 to 30 months of full time effort on the boat. It is beautiful and impressive that they did so great a job over 3 years. But from these owners its clear that it takes a lot of time and money to do it right..| 34197|34141|2017-07-06 04:42:54|Hannu Venermo|Re: My boat|I agree with Brent Swain ... that is is fast, quite cheap, and quite easy, to do it fast, once, simply. And I agree that less systems/hotel loads is in many ways better for a true cruising sailboat - and the ones you do build, should mostly be based on farm/mine standards rather than a yacht-type thingy. I disagree, politely, somewhat, on "right". Most time is usually spent on the wrong things, bling and looks and not-really-useful "stuff". A cruising sailboat should have bigger winches, better trash storage, more pv, bigger (lion) batteries. A watermaker - pv will power it.. Great kitchen facilities. Otoh .. I will/would happily sail most-any production fiberglass boat anywhere, even singlehanded. About 99% of all cruising done, to date, has been with such. The only electronic gadget I would like to have / need is some form of gps, preferably with maps, about 500$ or less. On 05/07/2017 22:33, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > But from these owners its clear that it takes a lot of time and money > to do it right.. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34198|34141|2017-07-06 18:21:08|brentswain38|Re: My boat|9 months a year is not full time year round.Did you ask what they would have rather done, which boat they would rather  have, why they didn't stick with their Colvin design, or how long it took them to get the shell together and all steel work done? When I  began that boat a friend ,and experienced steel boat builder and offshore cruiser, Joseph in Sidney, was beginning a 34 ft Van de Stadt for his son. I went to Cowichan Bay for three weeks and put the hull, decks, cabin cockpit ,  keel rudder and skeg  together then went back to Sidney, and found that Joseph had just built the shed and frames for his sons boat.. He took months working full time, to get where I  had in three weeks .Yes the interior,etc,  on an origami boat takes just as long as any other boat ,but that's one hell of a head start . A traditionally framed boat would have taken a year to get to where  had in three weeks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mr Swain, I am sorry and don't mean to argue but that is not what Mark told me directly. He said he and his wife worked on the boat full time for the 3 years. The exception to this only was 2-3 months each year that Mark would have to work to get money for the boat. To me 9 to 10months a year of full time effort is full time unless you are made of money and Im not. I guess another way to look is that they spent 27 to 30 months of full time effort on the boat. It is beautiful and impressive that they did so great a job over 3 years. But from these owners its clear that it takes a lot of time and money to do it right..| 34199|34141|2017-07-06 18:28:33|brentswain38|Re: My boat|A better cruising boat is built on work boat priorities ,rather than bling and yottie priorities.The longer and further you cruise, the more wear and tear  she gets, the  more work boat like conditions she experiences. Those who have never cruised full time ,off the beaten path, far from marinas and ship swindlers ,cant possibly fully comprehend this fact. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I agree with Brent Swain ... that is is fast, quite cheap, and quite easy, to do it fast, once, simply. And I agree that less systems/hotel loads is in many ways better for a true cruising sailboat - and the ones you do build, should mostly be based on farm/mine standards rather than a yacht-type thingy. I disagree, politely, somewhat, on "right". Most time is usually spent on the wrong things, bling and looks and not-really-useful "stuff". A cruising sailboat should have bigger winches, better trash storage, more pv, bigger (lion) batteries. A watermaker - pv will power it.. Great kitchen facilities. Otoh .. I will/would happily sail most-any production fiberglass boat anywhere, even singlehanded. About 99% of all cruising done, to date, has been with such. The only electronic gadget I would like to have / need is some form of gps, preferably with maps, about 500$ or less. On 05/07/2017 22:33, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote: > But from these owners its clear that it takes a lot of time and money > to do it right.. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34200|34141|2017-07-06 21:44:08|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|I would say 9-10 months per year is full time unless independtly rich or without a job. So i don't agree. Mark said it was about year to get the bare boat in the water after work began. I don't know how long you worked for them he didn't mention that. It was then 2 more years of full time work to get the boat finished.So from those here that have done so, it seems like 3-6 years is average with 10 years being possible as well. All of this is far more longer than I understood when first I started to research brentboats. I understand that a guy could take his boat cruising with just the shell, but that's not really a boat and shouldnt be in the discussion for us people looking at this options. Its not real.An example I saw on yourtube is Tardigrade. That boat looked great outside, but was horrible inside in the videos with plywood and pink foam and wires hanging. no way is that inside fit for cruising. So it really shouldn't be called a cruising boat it's not even to workboat quality I think.I'm not talking about blinging just a good quality finish like Costa Vida or Silas Crosby. And it would be very good to know the kind of time and moneis that go into those boats because those are what attract us potentil builders not Tardigrade.Are there pictures of Matt and Opus boats here since they have offered good informations?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :9 months a year is not full time year round.Did you ask what they would have rather done, which boat they would rather  have, why they didn't stick with their Colvin design, or how long it took them to get the shell together and all steel work done? When I  began that boat a friend ,and experienced steel boat builder and offshore cruiser, Joseph in Sidney, was beginning a 34 ft Van de Stadt for his son. I went to Cowichan Bay for three weeks and put the hull, decks, cabin cockpit ,  keel rudder and skeg  together then went back to Sidney, and found that Joseph had just built the shed and frames for his sons boat.. He took months working full time, to get where I  had in three weeks .Yes the interior,etc,  on an origami boat takes just as long as any other boat ,but that's one hell of a head start . A traditionally framed boat would have taken a year to get to where  had in three weeks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mr Swain, I am sorry and don't mean to argue but that is not what Mark told me directly. He said he and his wife worked on the boat full time for the 3 years. The exception to this only was 2-3 months each year that Mark would have to work to get money for the boat. To me 9 to 10months a year of full time effort is full time unless you are made of money and Im not. I guess another way to look is that they spent 27 to 30 months of full time effort on the boat. It is beautiful and impressive that they did so great a job over 3 years. But from these owners its clear that it takes a lot of time and money to do it right..| 34201|34141|2017-07-06 22:20:43|opuspaul|Re: My boat|I don't have any inside shots but you can see some outside pictures of my boat here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/albums/| 34202|34141|2017-07-06 22:54:04|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Thank you opuspaul I will look!| 34203|34141|2017-07-07 15:02:18|Matt Malone|Re: My boat| >Are there pictures of Matt and Opus boats here since they have offered good informations? Ninbubbas, My boat is not an origami or even a steel boat, I decided to go with one of the first fibreglass boats, solid glass inches thick with no balsa or foam core anywhere in the hull or deck.   Back then, they had no idea how strong fibreglass was in practice, or how long it would last, so, they made the boat as thick as wood planking would be on a wood boat.   These boats were tremendously over-engineered.   The springs in my truck were made of fibreglass, not as thick as this boat, and they seemed to take a beating.   Note also lifeboats, are nearly all thick, durable, fibreglass.   Don't underestimate well-engineered, solid glass as a material.     The advantage of my decision was, for about the cost of the steel of an origami, I got an entire boat, with rigging, engine and sails.   Old boats can be found that are ludicrously cheap.  When I got my boat, it came straight out of the water.  While technically, it could go have gone straight back into the water, I wanted to redo the coatings on the bottom, work on through-hulls (many were seized open), pull out all the old plumbing and electrical and redo it with new materials, and generally clean it up.    While many 30-year old crap fibreglass boats would be on the bottom after touching just one rock once, the inches of fibreglass of a solid-glass boats gives them more reserve toughness.   If one can stay away from rocks, and do a better than a half-assed job of keeping up with the coating requirements, it could easily be a forever hull.   Its already 60 years old, and it is in good condition.  There is no reason it will not last another 60 years with minimal effort.   The main point of my choice was low price and lower future maintenance.   A steel hull, you have to pay more attention to the coatings.         I do weld, and have made parts for boats, but I doubt I will ever weld an origami.   I am a member of this group because Brent and other members of this group have many practical ideas they share on boats and equipment, projects and procedures that are just as applicable to my boat and my project, even though the hull is not steel.    The origami method seems a clever way to make a durable hull.   Many aspects of having a hull I can weld-to are really attractive -- want to mount something there -- 20 minutes drilling and welding a couple  pieces of angle iron and you can fix a piece of equipment down with 4 grade 8 bolts -- its not going anywhere.   As I have worked with pressure and vacuum systems, metal and seals using metal have always struck me as dependable ways to keep the outside out, and the inside in.   A boat can't sink if the water can't get in and if I have welded every inch of its seams, I could somehow feel more certain of it.   I would certainly be able to take a steel boat further (because of the application of foam as insulation), and I would not be quite as paranoid about touching rocks, though it would be a real pain in the ass to have to haul it or dry it and repaint damage too often.   There are many factors that go into each person's decisions about what boat is the right one for them.   Lots of people who have built a boat live on a few acres of land with a workshop, and good access to electricity, in municipalities that do not hassle them about a project in their yard, or have access to nearby inexpensive, under-used industrial space / boat yard space.   I do not live in such an area.   If I were to make my decision again, I might still spend the years it took me to find the right old fibreglass boat.   If I lived somewhere else, I might easily have gone origami.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 9:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: My boat     I would say 9-10 months per year is full time unless independtly rich or without a job. So i don't agree. Mark said it was about year to get the bare boat in the water after work began. I don't know how long you worked for them he didn't mention that. It was then 2 more years of full time work to get the boat finished. So from those here that have done so, it seems like 3-6 years is average with 10 years being possible as well. All of this is far more longer than I understood when first I started to research brentboats. I understand that a guy could take his boat cruising with just the shell, but that's not really a boat and shouldnt be in the discussion for us people looking at this options. Its not real. An example I saw on yourtube is Tardigrade. That boat looked great outside, but was horrible inside in the videos with plywood and pink foam and wires hanging. no way is that inside fit for cruising. So it really shouldn't be called a cruising boat it's not even to workboat quality I think. I'm not talking about blinging just a good quality finish like Costa Vida or Silas Crosby. And it would be very good to know the kind of time and moneis that go into those boats because those are what attract us potentil builders not Tardigrade. Are there pictures of Matt and Opus boats here since they have offered good informations? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 9 months a year is not full time year round.Did you ask what they would have rather done, which boat they would rather  have, why they didn't stick with their Colvin design, or how long it took them to get the shell together and all steel work done? When I  began that boat a friend ,and experienced steel boat builder and offshore cruiser, Joseph in Sidney, was beginning a 34 ft Van de Stadt for his son. I went to Cowichan Bay for three weeks and put the hull, decks, cabin cockpit ,  keel rudder and skeg  together then went back to Sidney, and found that Joseph had just built the shed and frames for his sons boat.. He took months working full time, to get where I  had in three weeks .Yes the interior,etc,  on an origami boat takes just as long as any other boat ,but that's one hell of a head start . A traditionally framed boat would have taken a year to get to where  had in three weeks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Mr Swain, I am sorry and don't mean to argue but that is not what Mark told me directly. He said he and his wife worked on the boat full time for the 3 years. The exception to this only was 2-3 months each year that Mark would have to work to get money for the boat. To me 9 to 10months a year of full time effort is full time unless you are made of money and Im not. I guess another way to look is that they spent 27 to 30 months of full time effort on the boat. It is beautiful and impressive that they did so great a job over 3 years. But from these owners its clear that it takes a lot of time and money to do it right.. | 34204|34141|2017-07-07 17:03:36|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Sory Matt I was confused you with Martin on prairiemaid. Are there interior photos of that boat?| 34205|34141|2017-07-07 17:11:50|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Ah yes I just found prairiemaid gallery with interior photos. That is a proper cruising interior very well done. that should be the standard. If you don't mind saying what was the generally time and cost involved in your finishout? This would be very helpful knowledge.| 34206|34206|2017-07-07 21:50:58|bilgekeeldave|Epoxy tar undercoating.|I am hauling my 1983 twin keel Brent boat. The epoxy tar undercoat on the bottom has come off in many small spots. I am hoping that I can just patch it instead of sand blasting and redoing the whole bottom.It is hauled out on the beach and I only have time between tides to work on it. What is a good brand of epoxy tar to buy and is it alright for it to get wet before it is cured before I paint bottom paint on it.I have been getting free bottom paint at a shipyard but that is not an option now since my paint guy retired, so can anyone recommend a brand of bottom paint.Thanks,Dave| 34207|34206|2017-07-07 23:59:14|opuspaul|Re: Epoxy tar undercoating.|If you are patching, you will need something that is compatible with old anti-fouling coatings.  The last time I did something like that, I used international Primocon.  It dries quick with an overcoat in 3 hours but you will have to use several coats.    http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/primers/primocon.aspxI used a paint called Inter-tuf a few times.   It is a vinyl that works with old anti-fouling but I found it was getting hard to find.  It originally had tar in it but they took the tar out in later formulations.  It may have been better for the environment but I don't think it was nearly as good a product.I can't recommend a bottom paint....as far as I am concerned none of them work since they took the tin out of them.   Each year they seem to get more and more expensive but less and less effective.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am hauling my 1983 twin keel Brent boat. The epoxy tar undercoat on the bottom has come off in many small spots. I am hoping that I can just patch it instead of sand blasting and redoing the whole bottom.It is hauled out on the beach and I only have time between tides to work on it. What is a good brand of epoxy tar to buy and is it alright for it to get wet before it is cured before I paint bottom paint on it.I have been getting free bottom paint at a shipyard but that is not an option now since my paint guy retired, so can anyone recommend a brand of bottom paint.Thanks,Dave| 34208|34141|2017-07-09 15:18:22|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: My boat|Wow. This has spiraled into quite the thread.I'm not expecting Brent to come help me finish my boat.The West sucks, no doubt. Borders only seem to hinder the marginalized, but the privileged are crippled by them? They've got you right where they want you.There are a few other people who live in my area that have been wanting to build one of these boats. We are working together to come up with a solution that might suite all of us, as it is clear that I won't be able to finish it on my own. I've made peace with that. There is more to life than boats. See above quote.-Marlin| 34209|34141|2017-07-09 16:19:09|brentswain38|Re: My boat|When Timo built his 36 "Sisu", he said it costs less to launch the boat in spring and haul it out for the winter, than to pay  to have it at a marina for the winter. So he launched her, bare minimum interior, and cruised the summer, making decisions on the interior, while cruising, and recharging his personal batteries.In fall, he hauled her out, parked her on land,  and spent the winter doing the interior ,then relaunched in the spring.Then he circumnavigated.I don't think Marlin was needing to live aboard full time,year round , right away in his cold climate.A guy I met while building Shinola, bought a Waterline 33 wet kit , shell, painted ,foamed, and engine in. He said that everyone told him to finish the boat before launching ,but everyone who did that, seemed to  take just as long ,but had far less fun in the meantime. He was happily cruising in his " wet kit" while enjoying the finishing part, while cruising. 2 to3 years is closer to average. If you are determined to  have the safety and comfort of a new steel boat, there is no cheaper and quicker way to acquire one .If you are willing to settle for old plastic, then go for it . Not everyone is. Mark and Jean definitely were NOT. They would never trade what they have, for old plastic. Ask them.This site is  for people wanting the safety, comfort and reliability of  a steel boat. You could always pay Waterline Yachts a quarter million dollars for one.( only 10 gauge plate hull, along with lots of filler)   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would say 9-10 months per year is full time unless independtly rich or without a job. So i don't agree. Mark said it was about year to get the bare boat in the water after work began. I don't know how long you worked for them he didn't mention that. It was then 2 more years of full time work to get the boat finished.| 34210|34206|2017-07-09 16:26:54|brentswain38|Re: Epoxy tar undercoating.|I have been hearing great reports on Amerlock on bare steel.A needle gun on your rust spots is a good idea . Hold it there long enough and the steel just gets cleaner and cleaner ,  until it looks shot blasted. Lots of dry time to get l the thinner out of the epoxy, helps a lot.| 34211|34206|2017-07-09 16:28:33|brentswain38|Re: Epoxy tar undercoating.|I have not been impressed with ablatives, and prefer a hard ,scubbable antifouling.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If you are patching, you will need something that is compatible with old anti-fouling coatings.  The last time I did something like that, I used international Primocon.  It dries quick with an overcoat in 3 hours but you will have to use several coats.    http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/primers/primocon.aspxI used a paint called Inter-tuf a few times.   It is a vinyl that works with old anti-fouling but I found it was getting hard to find.  It originally had tar in it but they took the tar out in later formulations.  It may have been better for the environment but I don't think it was nearly as good a product.I can't recommend a bottom paint....as far as I am concerned none of them work since they took the tin out of them.   Each year they seem to get more and more expensive but less and less effective.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am hauling my 1983 twin keel Brent boat. The epoxy tar undercoat on the bottom has come off in many small spots. I am hoping that I can just patch it instead of sand blasting and redoing the whole bottom.It is hauled out on the beach and I only have time between tides to work on it. What is a good brand of epoxy tar to buy and is it alright for it to get wet before it is cured before I paint bottom paint on it.I have been getting free bottom paint at a shipyard but that is not an option now since my paint guy retired, so can anyone recommend a brand of bottom paint.Thanks,Dave| 34212|34206|2017-07-09 17:21:00|opuspaul|Re: Epoxy tar undercoating.|I have had the same experience.   Yachts don't move around enough and spend too much time on the hook for ablatives to really work the way they are designed.  Unless you are sailing on passage all the time, I wouldn't bother with them.  I put one of those ultrasonic anti-fouling units on my boat a few years ago.   If you buy them in kit form, the cost was about the same as 8 litres of cheap anti-fouling paint.  I think it has helped to slow growth of the grass and other soft plant growth.   I don't think it really replaces anti-fouling but may make it so I don't need to haul out as often.   If you can get Silicon Chip Magazine from Sept 2010 and are an electronics geek you might be able to make your own.https://www.jaycar.co.nz/ultrasonic-antifouling-kit-for-boats/p/KC5498---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have not been impressed with ablatives, and prefer a hard ,scubbable antifouling.| 34213|34141|2017-07-10 21:05:37|rockrothwell|Re: My boat|Good to hear you have backup Marlin. All the best. Hey Brent, I'm in Comox headed for Musicfest. Any chance I could pop bye your mailing address for a new copy of your book? Tomrrow (tues11th), or mondy 17th would work well for me. Thanx| 34214|34141|2017-07-10 22:58:33|ninbubbas|Re: My boat|Marlin - I'm happy to here that you have other options. I hate seeing the dream and so much work and money fall apart. Im was hoping Mr. Swain could help you because he works so fast. But if this is not to be then I'm am happy you have people around you who are good and friends.Best to you.| 34216|34141|2017-07-14 18:50:59|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm on Quadra ,but there are books at my mailing address.Yes ,you could buy one there, and save yourself the postage.Good to hear you have backup Marlin. All the best. Hey Brent, I'm in Comox headed for Musicfest. Any chance I could pop bye your mailing address for a new copy of your book? Tomrrow (tues11th), or mondy 17th would work well for me. Thanx| 34217|34141|2017-07-14 18:54:38|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Mark and Jean  have far more money now than they had when they built Costa Vida. They certainly didn't have affordable alternatives, in any other way, at the time.Keeping their Colvin was not a reasonable option.I did asked Mark about his satisfaction with the boat. He said he will go with aluminum if he did it again not steel. And he said Jean would never want to build another boat after the experience as it was hard. Very nice people who gave me very good informations.| 34219|34141|2017-07-15 00:04:40|Aaron|Re: My boat|I am building my own origami BS36 because I wanted to. I am on my 10th year building only because its my hobby. Work on it when I have spare time. AronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 7:56 PM, ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I am getting very confused Mr swain. You make it sound like the only reason anyone will build a steel origami boat is if they are poor and have no other choice. Is that really what you mean? 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A friend of mine sent me this statements from brent from a sailing forum. I think he  says he will help if you can cover his travels expense. Now I know he can finish your boat for you very fast like I thought before! He says this. Brent Swain Anarchist I have been flown halfway across the continent, several  times, for my expertise in getting things done, in a fraction the time of anyone else, and better done, due to my experience in using the product . All considered it a wise investment , saving them a huge amount of time and money. Has that ever happened to you? Fly him and get your cruising dream done! We want you to sail.| 34221|34141|2017-07-15 17:57:36|opuspaul|Re: My boat|I found that reading a sailing anarchy forum is about as much fun and useful as spending time staring in to an unflushed toilet bowl.   Far too many trolls and keyboard commandos.| 34222|34141|2017-07-16 14:42:40|Matt Malone|Re: My boat| I am pretty sure Brent has in the past for a fee on top of the plane ticket, assisted in getting the hull halfs and darts cut, each half pulled together, then the two halves welded to each other, and perhaps in some cases some portion of the deck, doghouse and rear transom.   If I remember correctly, everything is just tacked together so that the  builder can go ahead and do the continuous weld, with everything already held in place.   That takes it from sheets of steel flat on the ground to something that looks like a boat, but would not float, which to most people looks like a tremendous progress, like half the work.    In truth, over building support structure and cutting and fitting hull plates it is a tremendous amount of progress toward a finished boat.   This is where origami truly has the advantage, and yes, with Brent's help this can go even faster.   But then there are all of the boat's systems, nothing has made that easier.   Certainly the next few weeks or months spent by the home builder is very straightforward -- finishing the continuous weld everywhere.   Enthusiasm will carry them straight into starting the keel(s) and skeg and rudder.   Now it will float.   But there is so much to put on the deck, hard points to attach all of the standing rigging, hand rails on the cabin, cleats, bits.  Most would prefer to use stainless for a lot of this.   Then there are outer rails.   There is the decision as to make the mast should be deck stepped or keel stepped -- it could take years to read just half of the opinions written about that.    Then there is the blasting, coatings and foam, and still not a single interior system has gone in yet.   I believe Ninbubbas is underestimating the amount of indecision time for an average builder.  Nearly all of this indecision comes after the hull and decks are tacked together.   With Brent's paid assistance, a lot can get done in the early stages.   My understanding is, Marlin is beyond the typical stage when Brent leaves a project for the builder to proceed alone.   I am not aware of Brent building anyone's boat for them, or finishing any boats that were not his personally.   Yes, Brent leaves before the hard part starts, but the people who are starting are grateful for the huge head start.   No one could afford to pay a professional welder to be on site while the builder makes up their mind.   Did anyone expect Brent to be different?  Still, all the builders doing a non-origami, and are years into it, and it still does not have any more than the skeleton shape of a boat -- do you think they would then appreciate the speed of an origami, and Brent's help?   I think so.   And perhaps a toughness of a steel boat is simply not for you Ninbubbas.  Perhaps you should consider a fibreglass boat, do some cruising, see some steel boats being made the non-origami way, actually see the fussing around involved in "finishing" a boat, and re-evaluate.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 12:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: My boat     Marlin, can you afford Brent a plane tickt. A friend of mine sent me this statements from brent from a sailing forum. I think he  says he will help if you can cover his travels expense. Now I know he can finish your boat for you very fast like I thought before! He says this. Brent Swain Anarchist I have been flown halfway across the continent, several  times, for my expertise in getting things done, in a fraction the time of anyone else, and better done, due to my experience in using the product . All considered it a wise investment , saving them a huge amount of time and money. Has that ever happened to you? Fly him and get your cruising dream done! We want you to sail. | 34223|34141|2017-07-16 17:48:03|wolfgang|Re: My boat| Hello group this is my first post after reading the thread for about four to five years... I have never read such a bul****t in all this time. Anyone wants to talk a man into something he is not up to via a message board ? who the hell is ninbubbas@... to even think about anything alike ? Il 16/07/2017 20:42, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] ha scritto:   I am pretty sure Brent has in the past for a fee on top of the plane ticket, assisted in getting the hull halfs and darts cut, each half pulled together, then the two halves welded to each other, and perhaps in some cases some portion of the deck, doghouse and rear transom.   If I remember correctly, everything is just tacked together so that the  builder can go ahead and do the continuous weld, with everything already held in place.   That takes it from sheets of steel flat on the ground to something that looks like a boat, but would not float, which to most people looks like a tremendous progress, like half the work.    In truth, over building support structure and cutting and fitting hull plates it is a tremendous amount of progress toward a finished boat.   This is where origami truly has the advantage, and yes, with Brent's help this can go even faster.   But then there are all of the boat's systems, nothing has made that easier.   Certainly the next few weeks or months spent by the home builder is very straightforward -- finishing the continuous weld everywhere.   Enthusiasm will carry them straight into starting the keel(s) and skeg and rudder.   Now it will float.   But there is so much to put on the deck, hard points to attach all of the standing rigging, hand rails on the cabin, cleats, bits.  Most would prefer to use stainless for a lot of this.   Then there are outer rails.   There is the decision as to make the mast should be deck stepped or keel stepped -- it could take years to read just half of the opinions written about that.    Then there is the blasting, coatings and foam, and still not a single interior system has gone in yet.   I believe Ninbubbas is underestimating the amount of indecision time for an average builder.  Nearly all of this indecision comes after the hull and decks are tacked together.   With Brent's paid assistance, a lot can get done in the early stages.   My understanding is, Marlin is beyond the typical stage when Brent leaves a project for the builder to proceed alone.   I am not aware of Brent building anyone's boat for them, or finishing any boats that were not his personally.   Yes, Brent leaves before the hard part starts, but the people who are starting are grateful for the huge head start.   No one could afford to pay a professional welder to be on site while the builder makes up their mind.   Did anyone expect Brent to be different?  Still, all the builders doing a non-origami, and are years into it, and it still does not have any more than the skeleton shape of a boat -- do you think they would then appreciate the speed of an origami, and Brent's help?   I think so.   And perhaps a toughness of a steel boat is simply not for you Ninbubbas.  Perhaps you should consider a fibreglass boat, do some cruising, see some steel boats being made the non-origami way, actually see the fussing around involved in "finishing" a boat, and re-evaluate.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of ninbubbas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 12:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: My boat     Marlin, can you afford Brent a plane tickt. A friend of mine sent me this statements from brent from a sailing forum. I think he  says he will help if you can cover his travels expense. Now I know he can finish your boat for you very fast like I thought before! He says this. Brent Swain Anarchist I have been flown halfway across the continent, several  times, for my expertise in getting things done, in a fraction the time of anyone else, and better done, due to my experience in using the product . All considered it a wise investment , saving them a huge amount of time and money. Has that ever happened to you? Fly him and get your cruising dream done! We want you to sail. | 34224|34224|2017-07-17 11:46:25|aguysailing|Opus|Hi Opus... 3 coats of rolled on Amerlock on sand blasted below waterline.   Looks great after 2 weeks.   Product states it does not need anti fouling bottom paint?   Your experience?  I think down the road I may add another coat containing their fibreglass resins optional product for the Amerlock.  Otherwise... this so far beats out Wasser tar (product advised NOT to use on bare metal) so requiring zinc primer (creates pitting in the tar in boats that have used it) and requires anti fouling.   Thanks for tweaking me onto this product.   (Hey... special thanks to Haidan .... great job doing the blasting)....Gary| 34225|34141|2017-07-17 19:17:36|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ask Mark and Jean if they would give up their brentboat  for any one of the huge surplus of cheap  plastic boats on the over flooded market today. Ask them if they would have rather been in a plastic boat on their Pacific cruise. Ask the same questions of others who have cruised extensively  in their brentboats.,All will say they haven't seen another ot out there that they would rather  have  been cruising in. They  chose brentboats, because it is one of the best, most practical   cruising boats available. Dr Millar, after cruising his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back to BC , could have afforded any boat out there, for his lifetime Cape Horn dream. He chose a brentboat, a very experience based choice, no regrets.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am getting very confused Mr swain. You make it sound like the only reason anyone will build a steel origami boat is if they are poor and have no other choice. Is that really what you mean? I am trying to understand what you say with what the people who have truly built these boats say. Its confusing.| 34226|34141|2017-07-17 19:20:50|brentswain38|Re: My boat|Everyone has the right to retire some time.I'm retired, but what is left of Marlins boat is just standard metal working,something any fabricating student could do. The "technique" part is already done.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Marlin, can you afford Brent a plane tickt. A friend of mine sent me this statements from brent from a sailing forum. I think he  says he will help if you can cover his travels expense. Now I know he can finish your boat for you very fast like I thought before! He says this. Brent SwainAnarchist I have been flown halfway across the continent, several  times, for my expertise in getting things done, in a fraction the time of anyone else, and better done, due to my experience in using the product . All considered it a wise investment , saving them a huge amount of time and money. Has that ever happened to you? Fly him and get your cruising dream done! We want you to sail.| 34227|34141|2017-07-17 19:30:59|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I found that reading a sailing anarchy forum is about as much fun and useful as spending time staring in to an unflushed toilet bowl.   Far too many trolls and keyboard commandos.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anytime Bob Perry enters  discussion, he quickly renders it useless as an exchange of useful metal boat ,or cruising priorities info, by treating it as his personal facebook page , assuming all  they really want to do is  talk about him .Ditto his male harem of sucking, groveling groupies , attackingany one with practical , hands on ,steel boat experience ,who doesn't drop down on their  knees and start sucking on him, immediately .He is, after all,  the guy who responded to a metal boat question, by posting  pictures of little boys.Anyone seeking pictures of little boys doesn't do so by asking a steel boat question . They simply google "little boys."| 34228|34141|2017-07-17 19:47:55|brentswain38|Re: My boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hello groupthis is my first post after reading the thread for about four to five years...I have never read such a bul****t in all this time.Anyone wants to talk a man into something he is not up to via a message board ?who the hell is ninbubbas@... to even think about anything alike ? A troll from the Bob Perry male harem? Bob Perry, or his groveling, sucking, loverboy Smackdaddy, under an alias?Probably!| 34229|34141|2017-07-17 20:01:12|brentswain38|Re: My boat|It takes mere seconds to  weld down stanchions, cleats, hatch hinges etc. far longer to bolt and bed them down on fibreglass. Other fittings take longer ,but still a fraction the time of dealing with fibreglass,  and ,at under $2 a pound for stainless, far less cost , and far more permanent and leak proof.Many take less time  to weld up, than it takes to go to ship swinder and buy them. Stainless boiler tubing conduits under  the hull-deck joint, let you do your wiring  later ,while cruising, at your leisure.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-694923226 #ygrps-yiv-694923226ygrps-yiv-1569780379 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I am pretty sure Brent has in the past for a fee on top of the plane ticket, assisted in getting the hull halfs and darts cut, each half pulled together, then the two halves welded to each other, and perhaps in some cases some portion of the deck, doghouse and rear transom.   If I remember correctly, everything is just tacked together so that the  builder can go ahead and do the continuous weld, with everything already held in place.   That takes it from sheets of steel flat on the ground to something that looks like a boat, but would not float, which to most people looks like a tremendous progress, like half the work.    In truth, over building support structure and cutting and fitting hull plates it is a tremendous amount of progress toward a finished boat.   This is where origami truly has the advantage, and yes, with Brent's help this can go even faster.   But then there are all of the boat's systems, nothing has made that easier.   Certainly the next few weeks or months spent by the home builder is very straightforward -- finishing the continuous weld everywhere.   Enthusiasm will carry them straight into starting the keel(s) and skeg and rudder.   Now it will float.   But there is so much to put on the deck, hard points to attach all of the standing rigging, hand rails on the cabin, cleats, bits.  Most would prefer to use stainless for a lot of this.   Then there are outer rails.   There is the decision as to make the mast should be deck stepped or keel stepped -- it could take years to read just half of the opinions written about that.    Then there is the blasting, coatings and foam, and still not a single interior system has gone in yet.   I believe Ninbubbas is underestimating the amount of indecision time for an average builder.  Nearly all of this indecision comes after the hull and decks are tacked together.   With Brent's paid assistance, a lot can get done in the early stages.   My understanding is, Marlin is beyond the typical stage when Brent leaves a project for the builder to proceed alone.   I am not aware of Brent building anyone's boat for them, or finishing any boats that were not his personally.   Yes, Brent leaves before the hard part starts, but the people who are starting are grateful for the huge head start.   No one could afford to pay a professional welder to be on site while the builder makes up their mind.   Did anyone expect Brent to be different?  Still, all the builders doing a non-origami, and are years into it, and it still does not have any more than the skeleton shape of a boat -- do you think they would then appreciate the speed of an origami, and Brent's help?   I think so.   And perhaps a toughness of a steel boat is simply not for you Ninbubbas.  Perhaps you should consider a fibreglass boat, do some cruising, see some steel boats being made the non-origami way, actually see the fussing around involved in "finishing" a boat, and re-evaluate.   Matt   | 34230|34141|2017-07-17 20:51:47|aguysailing|Re: My boat|Ninbubbas, I think you are a "troll" from one of Brent's on line plastic boat useless adversaries.   Your posts are repetitively "goading".   So bugger off.    I live on a Swain.   I cruise on a Swain.   Safe under any weather condition....hitting whole logs at night, no problem with perhaps a smudge of the paint.  Insulated, wood stove... peace of mind....  sails in a whisper of wind particularly with my new Amerlock hard finish.   In the off chance you are not a troll bugger off anyway.| 34231|34141|2017-07-17 21:27:32|Chris Salayka|Re: My boat|Hear hear!  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 5:52 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: My boat    Ninbubbas, I think you are a "troll" from one of Brent's on line plastic boat useless adversaries.   Your posts are repetitively "goading".   So bugger off.    I live on a Swain.   I cruise on a Swain.   Safe under any weather condition....hitting whole logs at night, no problem with perhaps a smudge of the paint.  Insulated, wood stove... peace of mind....  sails in a whisper of wind particularly with my new Amerlock hard finish.   In the off chance you are not a troll bugger off anyway. Virus-free. www.avast.com | 34232|34232|2017-07-18 11:36:04|prairiemaidca|Flexible Solar Panels|    I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with flexible solar panels on the roof of their pilot house that they would like to share?Martin   (Prairie Maid)| 34233|34232|2017-07-18 11:39:33|Jfisher|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|I have used them on a smaller boat.  I high school friend is the gm at a company that makes them.   Efficiency is slightly lower, but they are really tough.  The stock sizes were not great for fitment as they were long and narrow, but they could make other sizes.   Overall they worked well, it was nice to not worry about damaging them.  Sent from my iPad On Jul 18, 2017, at 9:36 AM, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote:       I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with flexible solar panels on the roof of their pilot house that they would like to share?Martin   (Prairie Maid) | 34234|34234|2017-07-18 16:40:47|gerard.laverty|Bernard air cooled diesel|I'm sailing with a friend who has an Endurance 35 cutter he built 40 years ago in his backyard. It appears well done, I have a question about the engine. Hopefully someone here can give me some advice. It's a 40hp Bernard air cooled diesel. It needs a squirt of starter fluid close to the intake if it's cold. Starts right up and has little smoke. The exhaust is dry stack. It leaks a little oil. About 1/4 litre every 4-5 hours. I think the engine has about 4000 hours on it. Is it possible to get parts for this motor? Fuel pump etc. Should it be hauled out and rebuilt or replaced or just keep going as is? It's a bit noisy but pushes the boat to 5.5 kn at 1600rpm. Thanks, Gerard| 34235|34232|2017-07-18 16:48:10|bargemaster24|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|I have seen flexible panels fitted to the roofs of narrow boats.The owners were pleased with the results and as most boaters use the roof to walk on the panels are up to it. mikeafloat -----Original Message----- From: Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 16:39 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Flexible Solar Panels #ygrps-yiv-199842243 #ygrps-yiv-199842243AOLMsgPart_2_1244ad2a-262e-4ad5-9581-fec39057b336 td{color:black;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-row {clear:both;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-row div {float:left;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_ygrp-file {width:30px;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#ygrps-yiv-199842243 .ygrps-yiv-199842243aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-199842243aolmail_ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;} I have used them on a smaller boat.  I high school friend is the gm at a company that makes them.   Efficiency is slightly lower, but they are really tough.  The stock sizes were not great for fitment as they were long and narrow, but they could make other sizes.   Overall they worked well, it was nice to not worry about damaging them.   Sent from my iPad On Jul 18, 2017, at 9:36 AM, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote:       I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with flexible solar panels on the roof of their pilot house that they would like to share? Martin   (Prairie Maid) | 34236|34232|2017-07-18 17:55:53|Matt Malone|Re: Flexible Solar Panels| Hello JFisher, To my knowledge, all amorphous silicon panels suffer from a degradation in performance within a short time.   How long have you had your panels, and have you tested their output and compared to them to as-new condition lately?   This is not a sharp criticism of flexible amorphous panels on the curved surface of a boat -- what the heck else was one going to do with that surface anyway? -- I am just trying to gauge in-service (not ideal factor figures) power residual after a few years in service to use in power budgeting calculations.    I have purchased and used some amorphous cells on my boat that were so badly weather sealed that after 2-3 years,  they were visibly peeling off their backing and were outputting near zero power.     Other users may have had the same experience with some readily available solar panels from a decade ago. Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:39 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Flexible Solar Panels     I have used them on a smaller boat.  I high school friend is the gm at a company that makes them.   Efficiency is slightly lower, but they are really tough.  The stock sizes were not great for fitment as they were long and narrow, but they could make other sizes.   Overall they worked well, it was nice to not worry about damaging them.   Sent from my iPad On Jul 18, 2017, at 9:36 AM, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote:       I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with flexible solar panels on the roof of their pilot house that they would like to share? Martin   (Prairie Maid) | 34237|34232|2017-07-18 18:08:56|brentswain38|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|I have heard that they fog up and the output drops quickly ,after a couple pf years in the sun.I have seen them fog up. Ditto Lexan, which is why  I have stuck with  glass ones.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :    I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with flexible solar panels on the roof of their pilot house that they would like to share?Martin   (Prairie Maid)| 34238|34234|2017-07-18 18:15:38|brentswain38|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|Starter fluid can be hard on an engine. A flame ,like  that  from propane torch, helps it start when cold. Shutting off the air intake, until you get her really spinning fast, also works. A friend had trouble starting his Perkins, so put  a heating coil in the air intake, heating the air heading for the engine. Started quickly that way. One could make one from the nichrome wire from a hot plate.I  used an air cooled Hatz diesel with  a dry exhaust on my boat, for the first 12 years. Noisy and hot, but in winter, I kept warm with  the hatches wide open. Very simple, and super reliable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm sailing with a friend who has an Endurance 35 cutter he built 40 years ago in his backyard. It appears well done, I have a question about the engine. Hopefully someone here can give me some advice. It's a 40hp Bernard air cooled diesel. It needs a squirt of starter fluid close to the intake if it's cold. Starts right up and has little smoke. The exhaust is dry stack. It leaks a little oil. About 1/4 litre every 4-5 hours. I think the engine has about 4000 hours on it. Is it possible to get parts for this motor? Fuel pump etc. Should it be hauled out and rebuilt or replaced or just keep going as is? It's a bit noisy but pushes the boat to 5.5 kn at 1600rpm. Thanks, Gerard| 34239|34232|2017-07-18 18:16:34|opuspaul|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|The big advantage of flexible panels is that they are robust.   If you are going to crawl or walk on them, they are your only choice.    The boom from the mainsail casts a big shadow from the sun and all solar panels hate shadows.....it is amazing how the output will drop with just a small shadow hitting a few cells.  | 34240|34234|2017-07-18 18:19:22|brentswain38|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Point the flame from your propane torch in the air intake while starting it.Starter fluid can be hard on an engine. A flame ,like  that  from propane torch, helps it start when cold. Shutting off the air intake, until you get her really spinning fast, also works. A friend had trouble starting his Perkins, so put  a heating coil in the air intake, heating the air heading for the engine. Started quickly that way. One could make one from the nichrome wire from a hot plate.I  used an air cooled Hatz diesel with  a dry exhaust on my boat, for the first 12 years. Noisy and hot, but in winter, I kept warm with  the hatches wide open. Very simple, and super reliable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm sailing with a friend who has an Endurance 35 cutter he built 40 years ago in his backyard. It appears well done, I have a question about the engine. Hopefully someone here can give me some advice. It's a 40hp Bernard air cooled diesel. It needs a squirt of starter fluid close to the intake if it's cold. Starts right up and has little smoke. The exhaust is dry stack. It leaks a little oil. About 1/4 litre every 4-5 hours. I think the engine has about 4000 hours on it. Is it possible to get parts for this motor? Fuel pump etc. Should it be hauled out and rebuilt or replaced or just keep going as is? It's a bit noisy but pushes the boat to 5.5 kn at 1600rpm. Thanks, Gerard| 34241|34224|2017-07-18 18:24:46|opuspaul|Re: Opus|I am not sure what you mean about it not needing anti-fouling paint....the amerlock will protect the steel but will do nothing about stopping fouling or growth underwater.  I would have put the first coat of antifouling on while the amerlock was still soft.  Usually within a week but preferably the next day.   If you can still press the edge of your thumbnail in to the paint and leave a mark, it is probably OK.  If it has gone really hard and smooth, I would give it a light sand or preferably do a very thin tie-coat of epoxy so that the antifouling will be sure to stick well.  Good job on the blasting...I am sure it is a big relief.  Cheers.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Opus... 3 coats of rolled on Amerlock on sand blasted below waterline.   Looks great after 2 weeks.   Product states it does not need anti fouling bottom paint?   Your experience?  I think down the road I may add another coat containing their fibreglass resins optional product for the Amerlock.  Otherwise... this so far beats out Wasser tar (product advised NOT to use on bare metal) so requiring zinc primer (creates pitting in the tar in boats that have used it) and requires anti fouling.   Thanks for tweaking me onto this product.   (Hey... special thanks to Haidan .... great job doing the blasting)....Gary| 34242|34232|2017-07-18 18:32:57|prairiemaidca|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|So far on Prairie Maid I've done quite well with no panels and only the engine alt. for power to our one golf cart house battery and separate start battery.  I'm starting to think about, maybe adding a panel.  Hence the seeking advice from those that have gone before.  The fridge needs only minimal power due to it's top loading and extra heavy insulation but it'd be nice to not have to run the diesel to add to the house battery if a panel of some sort could contribute.   I don't have an arch so that is why the query about the flexible panels. I find I do have to get up on the pilot house roof to deal with putting the main away so something that could be stepped on occasionally would be a plus if I went that route.  The other consideration is the live aboard or not issue.  As we don't live aboard for more than a month or two at a time this adds to the mix.  Where are the portable cold fusion generators that were such a hot power topic years ago.  Same with the paint on solar panels that could be applied anywhere.  I guess it was mostly hopeful thinking.  Martin ..| 34243|34234|2017-07-18 18:37:20|prairiemaidca|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|    Used to have air cooled diesels on a nitrogen truck I ran in the 70's, every spring they required new head bolts due to stretching from sub zero starting and lots of ether spray.  It's very hard on engines and should be avoided as much as possible.  Always have the engine turning before starting a quick spray.  Martin...| 34244|34234|2017-07-18 18:38:26|opuspaul|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|As long as it is reliable, I would just keep using it.    Some of the old engines were very well built and 4000 hours is nothing for them.  The secret to longevity and reliability is keeping the fuel clean and keeping them from corroding.  Since it is air cooled, you shouldn't need to worry about salt water or corrosion in the internals of the engine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm sailing with a friend who has an Endurance 35 cutter he built 40 years ago in his backyard. It appears well done, I have a question about the engine. Hopefully someone here can give me some advice. It's a 40hp Bernard air cooled diesel. It needs a squirt of starter fluid close to the intake if it's cold. Starts right up and has little smoke. The exhaust is dry stack. It leaks a little oil. About 1/4 litre every 4-5 hours. I think the engine has about 4000 hours on it. Is it possible to get parts for this motor? Fuel pump etc. Should it be hauled out and rebuilt or replaced or just keep going as is? It's a bit noisy but pushes the boat to 5.5 kn at 1600rpm. Thanks, Gerard| 34245|34232|2017-07-18 19:20:25|opuspaul|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|I have seen people strap a flexible panel to the top of the boom with some lines when they aren't sailing.   You just try this and see how much it helps before going to anything permanent.You really need a lot of watts to get away with not running the engine if you have a fridge and freezer.  I have a very efficient and well insulated top loading water cooled fridge.   I have been able to get away without running the engine but I now have a high voltage (32 volt) 250 watt panel with an MPPT regulator on an aft arch which doesn't get any shadows.  I think it wouldn't really work in the hot summer with anything less.  This is very rough and I am ignoring losses but I would work out how many watts you are putting into your batteries with the alternator you have.  Let's say your big alternator puts out 80 amps in to your big battery bank for an hour every day....if you ran your engine for one hour a day, at 14 volts when charging, that is about 1120 watts.   The 250 watt panel I have sounds like a lot but it probably only puts out full power for 3 or so hours a day when the sun is high.  That is the same as only providing 750 watts for an hour.  In this case, I need a total of over 1100 so the rest of the day, it makes up the rest.  On a cloudy day, it could be worse.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So far on Prairie Maid I've done quite well with no panels and only the engine alt. for power to our one golf cart house battery and separate start battery.  I'm starting to think about, maybe adding a panel.  Hence the seeking advice from those that have gone before.  The fridge needs only minimal power due to it's top loading and extra heavy insulation but it'd be nice to not have to run the diesel to add to the house battery if a panel of some sort could contribute.   I don't have an arch so that is why the query about the flexible panels. I find I do have to get up on the pilot house roof to deal with putting the main away so something that could be stepped on occasionally would be a plus if I went that route.  The other consideration is the live aboard or not issue.  As we don't live aboard for more than a month or two at a time this adds to the mix.  Where are the portable cold fusion generators that were such a hot power topic years ago.  Same with the paint on solar panels that could be applied anywhere.  I guess it was mostly hopeful thinking.  Martin ..| 34246|34234|2017-07-19 00:31:45|gerard.laverty|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|Thanks everyone for the tips. Far as I know it has been trouble free. Any suggestions where to look for parts? I'd like to find those things that may need replacing before something fails. The Bernard is not a name I'd heard of before. Gerard| 34247|34234|2017-07-19 12:42:44|mountain man|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel| Bernard is a french company, I think they no longer make diesel engines only gas. Martin On Jul 19, 2017, at 12:31 AM, "gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Thanks everyone for the tips. Far as I know it has been trouble free. Any suggestions where to look for parts? I'd like to find those things that may need replacing before something fails. The Bernard is not a name I'd heard of before. Gerard | 34248|34224|2017-07-19 17:53:59|brentswain38|Re: Opus|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am very skeptical about antifouling claims. Could be hard to get it to stick at this point.I am not sure what you mean about it not needing anti-fouling paint....the amerlock will protect the steel but will do nothing about stopping fouling or growth underwater.  I would have put the first coat of antifouling on while the amerlock was still soft.  Usually within a week but preferably the next day.   If you can still press the edge of your thumbnail in to the paint and leave a mark, it is probably OK.  If it has gone really hard and smooth, I would give it a light sand or preferably do a very thin tie-coat of epoxy so that the antifouling will be sure to stick well.  Good job on the blasting...I am sure it is a big relief.  Cheers.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Opus... 3 coats of rolled on Amerlock on sand blasted below waterline.   Looks great after 2 weeks.   Product states it does not need anti fouling bottom paint?   Your experience?  I think down the road I may add another coat containing their fibreglass resins optional product for the Amerlock.  Otherwise... this so far beats out Wasser tar (product advised NOT to use on bare metal) so requiring zinc primer (creates pitting in the tar in boats that have used it) and requires anti fouling.   Thanks for tweaking me onto this product.   (Hey... special thanks to Haidan .... great job doing the blasting)....Gary| 34249|34232|2017-07-19 18:04:39|brentswain38|Re: Flexible Solar Panels|Putting canopy over my cockpit was one huge improvement. Gave me shade ,which stopped the cockpit from becoming a solar oven in sun, and rain protection in vertically falling rains .Make it perfectly flat, and it will have no windage and is almost invisible, from  an aesthetics perspective. It has to be far enough aft  to clear the end of the boom, and far enough forward to clear the wind vane.Still leaves a nice patch of shade.Four short pieces of one inch sch 40 pipe welded to the top lifeline, make nice sockets to drop the3/4 inc sch 40 pipe hoops in.You can then mount good glass panels on the canopy.Well worth  doing!| 34250|34234|2017-07-19 18:08:21|brentswain38|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|Many engines use stock Bosch injectors and fuel pumps. Check out to see what is common.| 34251|34234|2017-07-20 00:31:16|gerard.laverty|Re: Bernard air cooled diesel|Thanks for that suggestion Brent.| 34252|34252|2017-08-02 20:17:51|sollitc|bottom paint|I have used a tin infused ablative bottom paint in the past and am considering moving to Pettit Hydrocoat which is copper infused. Will the copper be a problem on a steel boat?| 34253|34252|2017-08-03 00:42:22|Aaron|Re: bottom paint|NopeSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:17 PM, charles.sollitt@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have used a tin infused ablative bottom paint in the past and am considering moving to Pettit Hydrocoat which is copper infused. 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li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-213549755 | 34254|34252|2017-08-03 16:17:17|brentswain38|Re: bottom paint|Not as long as you have some kind of barrier coat between it and the steel ,to prevent any electrical  contact between them. Never put any copper paint on bare steel.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have used a tin infused ablative bottom paint in the past and am considering moving to Pettit Hydrocoat which is copper infused. Will the copper be a problem on a steel boat?| 34255|34252|2017-08-03 16:51:34|opuspaul|Re: bottom paint|I would check to see with the paint manufacturer if it is necessary to remove all of the old tin based antifouling or use a tie coat.   Sometimes the copper and tin don't get along.| 34256|34256|2017-08-05 12:28:21|PAUL LIEBENBERG|Boat project for sale|https://comoxvalley.craigslist.ca/boa/6251113102.htmlThanks!| 34257|34256|2017-08-15 11:14:42|rockrothwell|Re: Boat project for sale|Hi Guys, Does anyone know who the owner of "Idefix" is? I think his name is Scott, but have no idea of his surname. Does anyone ,know how to contact him? Many thanks, Shane| 34258|34256|2017-08-19 21:25:52|brentswain38|Re: Boat project for sale|I only know him as Scott, but Evan will know his full name. Winston probably will too. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Guys, Does anyone know who the owner of "Idefix" is? I think his name is Scott, but have no idea of his surname. Does anyone ,know how to contact him? Many thanks, Shane| 34259|34259|2017-08-19 21:26:41|dirkdiggler888|Getting Started|I am in the very early stages of planning a steel boat construction as I have a settlement and some time off.. What are the best resources for a newbie to really sink his teeth into for steel boat construction and origami construction..What should I avoid? and what should I watch out for?Diggler| 34260|34259|2017-08-19 21:33:08|brentswain38|Re: Getting Started|Buying a copy of my book, and Alex's video is a good start, as is reading thru a lot of the postings here, and the photos.  Where are you?Watch out for armchair critics who know nothing about the subject, have no hands on experience in  it ,but have lots  of "armchair expert" advice .Get your advice from those who have been there, done  it.Check out the  "Common screwups" discussion on this site.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am in the very early stages of planning a steel boat construction as I have a settlement and some time off.. What are the best resources for a newbie to really sink his teeth into for steel boat construction and origami construction..What should I avoid? and what should I watch out for?Diggler| 34261|34261|2017-08-19 21:52:22|brentswain38|The only steel boat discussion site left.|Metalboatsociety.org site is out of order. Too bad.It was  a great source of info exchange, from people who actually get their hands dirty building their own steel boats. Metalboatbuilding.org went out of business, as soon as they banned the only  innovative thinking on it.Any attempts to  exchange info on steel boats on other sites, gets instantly  sabotaged by  Bob," Little boys" Perry  ( The Vulture) , who floods them with his  plastic boats, and derogatory, sarcastic  denunciation of home built steel boats.Dunno who would pay such a vulture , someone who ridicules structural strength in a cruising boat, $175 an hour, to design  something he  hates so much.Seems this is the only site left which is dedicated to exchange of info on building your own metal  boat. "Little boys" Perry ( the vulture) and  his Bobettes tried to sabotage this site several times. Fortunately, we saw thru his sabotage attempts, and gave him and his Bobettes the boot quickly.Looks like this is the only site left .  | 34262|34259|2017-08-20 01:59:00|Aaron|Re: Getting Started|I'll second Brent on this get the book and video then study the groups pages and especially The common screw ups. Several of us have thought we could do something a little more custom for ourselves and it cost dearly in time and always extra money. Aaron From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting Started   Buying a copy of my book, and Alex's video is a good start, as is reading thru a lot of the postings here, and the photos.  Where are you?Watch out for armchair critics who know nothing about the subject, have no hands on experience in  it ,but have lots  of "armchair expert" advice .Get your advice from those who have been there, done  it.Check out the  "Common screwups" discussion on this site.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am in the very early stages of planning a steel boat construction as I have a settlement and some time off.. What are the best resources for a newbie to really sink his teeth into for steel boat construction and origami construction..What should I avoid? and what should I watch out for?Diggler #ygrps-yiv-332102103 #ygrps-yiv-332102103yiv3206071499 #ygrps-yiv-332102103yiv3206071499 -- 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for sale|Thanks Brent, This guy Scott has Idefix up for sale in mexico. Both the advert & the agent mentioned that he is a "marine engineer" and that he put a CEDAR spar in her.............. Which to my mind brings into question every single decision that could possibly have been made in the construction of the boat. Is this guy for real? Or did he just prove his humanity &make a mistake. I mean a cedar spar on stainless rigging??????? Is this guy for real? Worth even speakikng to? Or is he another Jan DeGroot? Is this guy even worth talking to? He did put a lovely Swain winlass on her, sissy bars, a trim tab tiller & a propper companion way hatch that even opens to port, but a cedar spar on stainless rigging????? It's also in Mexico, so 2,000 miles of windward work on a lee shore with a horrible political sitch (etc etc, armed to the teeth, etc etc no thanks!), or about 6,ooo miles round hawaill (thankfully a different flavor there) &up over the north pacific high & home, and he's asking a helluva lot of money. Then multimpy by 1.5 to get her home, anyway. Does anyone know of anything eles, a Brentboat of course, for sale?? In a perfect world it'd be a 31' or a 36' bildge keeler, but in a pinch, even a fin keeler. A Hull??? At this point I'm vasilating between a 1 way ticket to Cambodia to swill beer on the beach & hover over the internet ready to jump, or getting ahold of Winston, Evan Shaler or that lad Haiden you mentioned was damned good, ordering the steel, doing the rounds of the scrap yards, begging/buying or stealing the programming to have it all (CNC...computer) cut & going for it full blast & having it in the water in 4-6 months. The decision is going to be October 1st & either way I plan on looking you up if you are around Comox between now & then. Sorry to dump me guts like this lads, but I'm too old to hesitate on that which I've dreamed of since I was a lad & never this side of the green stuff will I ever again have the opportunity. Cheers,| 34264|34259|2017-08-23 22:28:30|rockrothwell|Re: Getting Started|Hi Dirk, Welcome to the group. your in the right place. from my previous post, you'll see that I also second Brent's suggestions. But don't mindfuck it like I did for so l| 34265|34256|2017-08-24 19:43:10|brentswain38|Re: Boat project for sale|Scot did a beautiful job on that boat, a work of art. Cedar mast is probably not a good one, but good enough to get you home. Once home, with so many boats being scrapped, a used  aluminium mast should be available, cheap. Heading home, I found the clipper route worked well for me. About 300 miles out,  the wind switches from NW to NE trades, giving you a comfortable beam reach NW. Sail NW, to about 1,000 miles out ,and at around 30 degrees N , the latitude of San Diego, it goes westerly . Stay 1,000 miles out, to about 40 north , as along the coast it goes NW again. At 40 degrees  north, you can angle in, without being headed too much.Heading all  the way to Hawaii means having to  deal with  Trumpland, and having to try beat against the NE trades, after having already having  given up so much  easting. Clipper route makes so much more sense.However , that boat may have already been sold .Check that out. John had one in Refuge Cove, BC called Autumn Wine for sale. Single keeler ,36 brentboat,  well built ,but  don't know how well maintainedYou can reach them at  johnjanetellis@...Thanks Brent, This guy Scott has Idefix up for sale in mexico. Both the advert & the agent mentioned that he is a "marine engineer" and that he put a CEDAR spar in her.............. Which to my mind brings into question every single decision that could possibly have been made in the construction of the boat. Is this guy for real? Or did he just prove his humanity &make a mistake. I mean a cedar spar on stainless rigging??????? Is this guy for real? Worth even speakikng to? Or is he another Jan DeGroot? Is this guy even worth talking to? He did put a lovely Swain winlass on her, sissy bars, a trim tab tiller & a propper companion way hatch that even opens to port, but a cedar spar on stainless rigging????? It's also in Mexico, so 2,000 miles of windward work on a lee shore with a horrible political sitch (etc etc, armed to the teeth, etc etc no thanks!), or about 6,ooo miles round hawaill (thankfully a different flavor there) &up over the north pacific high & home, and he's asking a helluva lot of money. Then multimpy by 1.5 to get her home, anyway. Does anyone know of anything eles, a Brentboat of course, for sale?? In a perfect world it'd be a 31' or a 36' bildge keeler, but in a pinch, even a fin keeler. A Hull??? At this point I'm vasilating between a 1 way ticket to Cambodia to swill beer on the beach & hover over the internet ready to jump, or getting ahold of Winston, Evan Shaler or that lad Haiden you mentioned was damned good, ordering the steel, doing the rounds of the scrap yards, begging/buying or stealing the programming to have it all (CNC...computer) cut & going for it full blast & having it in the water in 4-6 months. The decision is going to be October 1st & either way I plan on looking you up if you are around Comox between now & then. Sorry to dump me guts like this lads, but I'm too old to hesitate on that which I've dreamed of since I was a lad & never this side of the green stuff will I ever again have the opportunity. Cheers,| 34266|34256|2017-08-25 16:32:30|rockrothwell|Re: Boat project for sale|Again, Thanks Brent, OOPS, excuse me while I remove hoof from mouth. Delighted to be wrong. If it's still available & I buy her I think I'd at least chuck the SS standing rigging & put hi tensile 1x7 with bull clamps to get her home, then would preferr to go for a steel mast. The clipper route sounds much better as well. And a lot easier to get it together if wot I buy is here already. Now waiting to hear back from John & Janet Cheers, Shane| 34267|34256|2017-08-25 18:34:15|opuspaul|Re: Boat project for sale|I wouldn't plan on changing a thing until I had a good look at it.   The SS rigging and cedar mast may be just fine.  There is more than one kind of cedar and it may be over built or engineered with composite  box or birdsmouth construction.  If you don't like something, there are a ton of old boats in Mexico.  You might find an old mast there.  Boats in Mexico can go very cheap.   There are some large brokers there but the best deals may be found by word of mouth.   The buses to San Carlos/Guaymas from the US are bit of a hassle but cheap and safe.  I was there a few years ago and felt much safer there than in Los Angeles or Phoenix.  San Carlos is a nice place.  I would go for a holiday and check it out.If you want to go north, a lot of boats just bash away while trying to pick the weather and either harbor hop or motor sail.  I like Brent's sailing route.  Get grib files and watch out for movement of the North Pacific High.  It moves around and is not in the same position every year. Hawaii has some spectacular nature sights but it is not boating friendly and a long way out.  I spent 4 months there on my boat.  You have a choice of either horrible and rolly anchorages or expensive marinas.   I couldn't afford the marinas so spent most of my time on the hook moving around.   The passages between the islands when the trade wind is honking have to be experienced to be believed.   The wind funnels between the high islands and accelerates so short and steep 5 to 6 meter waves are the norm.  7 to 8 meter waves are common.  At anchor, there is very little surrounding reef so you may be relying on being in the lee of the high islands but the wind can shift suddenly and there is a lot of current which can turn you sideways to the waves.   I can tell you that rolling 25 degrees either way every 4 or 5 seconds in 4 meter waves at anchor is not much fun.  I had books flying out of shelves at anchor that never moved at sea and often ended up sleeping on the floor rather than a bunk.   I spent one New Years sleeping behind a dumpster in Lahaina because it was too rough and dangerous to get out to the boat.  By the time I left Hawaii, I felt burned out, battered and bruised.  Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Again, Thanks Brent, OOPS, excuse me while I remove hoof from mouth. Delighted to be wrong. If it's still available & I buy her I think I'd at least chuck the SS standing rigging & put hi tensile 1x7 with bull clamps to get her home, then would preferr to go for a steel mast. The clipper route sounds much better as well. And a lot easier to get it together if wot I buy is here already. Now waiting to hear back from John & Janet Cheers, Shane| 34268|34261|2017-08-25 19:50:29|jhess314|Re: The only steel boat discussion site left.|Metalboatsociety.org appears to be up again.John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Metalboatsociety.org site is out of order. Too bad.It was  a great source of info exchange, from people who actually get their hands dirty building their own steel boats. | 34269|34256|2017-08-26 16:32:06|rockrothwell|Re: Boat project for sale|Hi Brent, I owe you man. I owe you. Spoke to John Ellis this morning & am planning on heading over to Squirly Cove to meet up with him as soon as I hear back from you, but not before. He told me that he'd hang on to her until I got over there to have a look. Pretty decent of him. You were right about how well she'd been maintained & John was very forthright about it all. It'd definitely be a job of work, but it might be worthwhile. Oil pump in the VW engine is shot & as soon as it heats up the viscosity drops (or rises, whatever) &the oil pressure drops to the point of setting the allarm off... He's got another pump which helps, but to get her over to wherever to see her in the slings is a bit of a pain in the butt. Going to have to figure that one. What really concerns me though, is the Hull. John mentioned "several" spots where he patched it with 1/8" plate from the outside... "not huge sheets, only about 6" x 6" pieces" he said. He also mentinoed that the rudder is shot..... & estimated all up that it was "about 15 hours of welding to do". Also regarding the Hull, and of concern to me, is that he's got the "standard" comercial battery of a winlass forward (which I'd chuck) and....... rode stowage belowdecks (again the "standard" bullshit). He said that the rode stowage belowdecks was in a fiberglass box so not right against the hull which of course helps but what concerns me is the salt water that comes aboard with the rode, soaks into the foam, which he said was painted, but latex paint is not going to provide any protection is it- soaks under the foam right down the breast of her, the water eventually evaporates, leaving the salt of course, which of course absorbs any humidity out of the air leaving a damp sponge (the foam) right next to the steel...... I'm assuming that he followed your advice re paint &coatings, but....... But it sounds just like that Folks boat that I looked at that you advised me how to check. What I'm getting at is that I just don't have the experience to check it out properly. And being only a novice welder, the skills to do the welding repairs myself. She's now laying on a mooring just off John's place & frankly he just wants shod of her. Said that if he doesn't get what he's asking he'll just scrap her & sell her in bits. Then again, like you said, there are heaps of boats being scrapped so rather frustrating for him..... He's looking for cash & done. I figure that it may be worth getting her over to Lund (which he said was cheapest) or Cambell River/where ever, paying him a bit extra for the extra hasstle, get her up in the slings and then getting you have a look at it (a mutually trusted neutral party) to kick my butt in the right direction......... Would there be any chance of that mate? I'd be delighted to pay you whatever you ask. I know you are retired, so in all fairness, charge me a premium. Whatever it takes. Without knowing what the status of the hull is & if it can be repaired without major surgery & cost, it' s not really worthwhile for me to even look at. And I was hoping that you might point me in the direction of someone who could do the welding repairs for me whilst I swamp, grind, paint etc...Didn't you mention a young fellow, Haiden I think it was... Anyway, wadda ya reckon? Re Idafix, all sounds good, except he wants the moon, the stars & my first 3 born.... Gotta have a chat with him either way| 34270|34256|2017-08-26 17:00:30|rockrothwell|Re: Boat project for sale|Hi Paul, Thanks for that mate. I'm very out of date with the computer stuff &don't know what a 'grib' file is, other than for tracking the north pacific high. Like all else re the nav, it's only been about 25 years so it's time to hit the books & brush up, but I'm getting the sneaking suspision that not many people still use a sextant & paper charts anymore which to me is relying on big brother a bit more than I'd like. Sure, GPS is wunnerful, but what if....... maybe it's just age... I've picked up berths on deliveries outta Honoruru a coupla times, to Long Beach and down to Oz & if I was to go that route I'd just clear into the Alawai, get what I need & clear out. Keep hearing storries about people pulling up to a traffic light & being relieved of their car at gun point, people getting shot for going "too slow" on the freeway. The average of 1 mass merder per day (as defined by the murder of 4 or more people) in the 'ol us of a I find rather unsettling. I'd just fly as (hopefully) its not as common in the trasit lounge of a major airport. Sad as they used to have a lot going for them, but I suppose it just takes a few... Good advice not to make plans to change anything untill it's been fully checked out, but how do you check stainless standinng rigging.......... That I'd bin for sure. Cheers, Shane| 34271|34256|2017-08-27 18:59:18|brentswain38|Re: Boat project for sale|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes I'd be happy to help you  out. I'm in Heriot bay at the moment, for a few days, then back out fishing ,etc.Bought an ultra sound unit for $125,  which can tell you the thickness of a hull from the outside, at any point .Every metal boat owner should have one.Haven't seen Haidan for a while . My have gone north. He can help you out,  when he gets back.Meanwhile, I can help you out with the survey.Sometimes I get out of internet range, for a few days, these days .Hi Brent, I owe you man. I owe you. Spoke to John Ellis this morning & am planning on heading over to Squirly Cove to meet up with him as soon as I hear back from you, but not before. He told me that he'd hang on to her until I got over there to have a look. Pretty decent of him. You were right about how well she'd been maintained & John was very forthright about it all. It'd definitely be a job of work, but it might be worthwhile. Oil pump in the VW engine is shot & as soon as it heats up the viscosity drops (or rises, whatever) &the oil pressure drops to the point of setting the allarm off... He's got another pump which helps, but to get her over to wherever to see her in the slings is a bit of a pain in the butt. Going to have to figure that one. What really concerns me though, is the Hull. John mentioned "several" spots where he patched it with 1/8" plate from the outside... "not huge sheets, only about 6" x 6" pieces" he said. He also mentinoed that the rudder is shot..... & estimated all up that it was "about 15 hours of welding to do". Also regarding the Hull, and of concern to me, is that he's got the "standard" comercial battery of a winlass forward (which I'd chuck) and....... rode stowage belowdecks (again the "standard" bullshit). He said that the rode stowage belowdecks was in a fiberglass box so not right against the hull which of course helps but what concerns me is the salt water that comes aboard with the rode, soaks into the foam, which he said was painted, but latex paint is not going to provide any protection is it- soaks under the foam right down the breast of her, the water eventually evaporates, leaving the salt of course, which of course absorbs any humidity out of the air leaving a damp sponge (the foam) right next to the steel...... I'm assuming that he followed your advice re paint &coatings, but....... But it sounds just like that Folks boat that I looked at that you advised me how to check. What I'm getting at is that I just don't have the experience to check it out properly. And being only a novice welder, the skills to do the welding repairs myself. She's now laying on a mooring just off John's place & frankly he just wants shod of her. Said that if he doesn't get what he's asking he'll just scrap her & sell her in bits. Then again, like you said, there are heaps of boats being scrapped so rather frustrating for him..... He's looking for cash & done. I figure that it may be worth getting her over to Lund (which he said was cheapest) or Cambell River/where ever, paying him a bit extra for the extra hasstle, get her up in the slings and then getting you have a look at it (a mutually trusted neutral party) to kick my butt in the right direction......... Would there be any chance of that mate? I'd be delighted to pay you whatever you ask. I know you are retired, so in all fairness, charge me a premium. Whatever it takes. Without knowing what the status of the hull is & if it can be repaired without major surgery & cost, it' s not really worthwhile for me to even look at. And I was hoping that you might point me in the direction of someone who could do the welding repairs for me whilst I swamp, grind, paint etc...Didn't you mention a young fellow, Haiden I think it was... Anyway, wadda ya reckon? Re Idafix, all sounds good, except he wants the moon, the stars & my first 3 born.... Gotta have a chat with him either way| 34272|34272|2017-08-27 20:11:44|opuspaul|Painting sails|Has anybody ever tried painting their dacron sails?  I want to paint the bottom section of my mainsail to help protect the stitching where I have done some patching.  I know that there is sticky back sail cloth but I want to do a fairly big section and I found that the sticky back tape and cloth will eventually come off.  There are some specialty products available for coloring sails but they are expensive.  I have read that regular acrylic house paint will last a few years.  Thanks.| 34273|34256|2017-08-27 23:09:32|rockrothwell|Re: Boat project for sale|That's geat and very much appreciated. I'll call John & head over to Squirly Cove to meet up with him in the next coupla days, depending on his reaction as it seems he doesn't want to spend a lot of time or effort on it. I may need to bribe him & now down to the very fine strokes on getting the x sorted & right. I can taste literally taste freedom. I'll have a look & make a decision as to if it's worth while as, as I mentioned before, I don't mind the work, but my hands are an issue & unless it's pretty straight forward, if I want to sail, and I DO want to sail, I've really gotta watch it. But there's not another man alive who can assess it like you mate. If my preliminary is good, first thing is probably for me to hoik the donk out & get er up on a chain hoist & replace the oil pump as I don't need to get caught out with tides etc with no donk... & then get her over to where-ever to get her up in the slings for you to have a look at her. What's your preferance for location for the survey? How long will you need, from the sounds of it (John was pretty forthright) she's pretty rough, so best we figure for that & make appropriate arrangements. Then again, you might have a quick, look say block her up on the hard sos we can get right into it, or forget it, splash her back. I suppose it also depends on how busy they are. In the mean time I am going to have a chat with Scott re Idafix. After what you said, I can't help myself. Kor, to step right into the dream..... that's worth a goodly bit...... Enjoy the fishin' lad| 34274|34272|2017-08-27 23:12:41|rockrothwell|Re: Painting sails|Wouldn't paint, unless it's rubber based, just flake off?| 34275|34272|2017-08-28 16:50:37|prairiemaidca|Re: Painting sails|Because of the stresses and movement of sails I can't imagine any paint like material being able to stay attached to a sail for long.  Dye would colour it as long as it's compatible  to use on that particular sail material.  These days so many products don't seem to play well with others.  You could easily end up doing more damage than good in the long run.  | 34276|34272|2017-08-28 17:27:41|opuspaul|Re: Painting sails|They actually make a paint for sails.   I think they used it on the round the world racer Hugo Boss.   I am going to go by their office today and see what it costs.   It might be an alternative to UV strips on roller furling sails.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dymWZta7Gxchttp://www.marineshield.co.nz/#rangehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLobesQDSAUI was really wondering if anybody has tried normal acrylic paints.   They would be too heavy for a whole sail but might work for smaller areas.| 34277|34272|2017-08-28 18:23:02|brentswain38|Re: Painting sails|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Standard artist's acrylic sticks well.Has anybody ever tried painting their dacron sails?  I want to paint the bottom section of my mainsail to help protect the stitching where I have done some patching.  I know that there is sticky back sail cloth but I want to do a fairly big section and I found that the sticky back tape and cloth will eventually come off.  There are some specialty products available for coloring sails but they are expensive.  I have read that regular acrylic house paint will last a few years.  Thanks.| 34278|34256|2017-08-28 18:25:18|brentswain38|Re: Boat project for sale|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :There is a good tide grid at the Gorge Harbour Govt dock.That's geat and very much appreciated. I'll call John & head over to Squirly Cove to meet up with him in the next coupla days, depending on his reaction as it seems he doesn't want to spend a lot of time or effort on it. I may need to bribe him & now down to the very fine strokes on getting the x sorted & right. I can taste literally taste freedom. I'll have a look & make a decision as to if it's worth while as, as I mentioned before, I don't mind the work, but my hands are an issue & unless it's pretty straight forward, if I want to sail, and I DO want to sail, I've really gotta watch it. But there's not another man alive who can assess it like you mate. If my preliminary is good, first thing is probably for me to hoik the donk out & get er up on a chain hoist & replace the oil pump as I don't need to get caught out with tides etc with no donk... & then get her over to where-ever to get her up in the slings for you to have a look at her. What's your preferance for location for the survey? How long will you need, from the sounds of it (John was pretty forthright) she's pretty rough, so best we figure for that & make appropriate arrangements. Then again, you might have a quick, look say block her up on the hard sos we can get right into it, or forget it, splash her back. I suppose it also depends on how busy they are. In the mean time I am going to have a chat with Scott re Idafix. After what you said, I can't help myself. Kor, to step right into the dream..... that's worth a goodly bit...... Enjoy the fishin' lad| 34279|34261|2017-08-28 18:38:54|brentswain38|Re: The only steel boat discussion site left.|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My password no longer works there.Metalboatsociety.org appears to be up again.John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Metalboatsociety.org site is out of order. Too bad.It was  a great source of info exchange, from people who actually get their hands dirty building their own steel boats. | 34280|34272|2017-08-28 22:53:45|Aaron|Re: Painting sails|I read about a guy using a moisture cure urethane product called AluthaneOn his airplane wings Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 7:12 PM, rockrothwell@... 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1089078045 #ygrps-yiv-1089078045yiv8743251801 #ygrps-yiv-1089078045yiv8743251801ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1089078045 #ygrps-yiv-1089078045yiv8743251801 #ygrps-yiv-1089078045yiv8743251801ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1089078045 | 34281|34256|2017-08-31 20:21:39|bilgekeeldave|Re: Boat project for sale, ultra sound unit.|Brent,I agree with what you said about how everyone should have an ultrasound unit, My boat, Quaranta Y Dos, is over thirty years old now and it would give me peace of mind to sound the hull and find any possible thin spots. Could you tell me who manufactures an ultrasound unit and where I could get one?Thanks,Dave| 34282|34256|2017-08-31 20:25:56|mountain man|Re: Boat project for sale, ultra sound unit.| There are many for sale on ebay On Aug 31, 2017, at 8:21 PM, "bilgekeeldave@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Brent, I agree with what you said about how everyone should have an ultrasound unit, My boat, Quaranta Y Dos, is over thirty years old now and it would give me peace of mind to sound the hull and find any possible thin spots.  Could you tell me who manufactures an ultrasound unit and where I could get one? Thanks, Dave | 34283|34256|2017-09-01 17:57:25|brentswain38|Re: Boat project for sale, ultra sound unit.|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I found it on the sailing anarchy  site, but, unfortunately , they have deleted every post I ever  posted there, at the request of Bob Perry ( with ,I  believe, some cash incentive from him. ) There are many for sale on ebay On Aug 31, 2017, at 8:21 PM, "bilgekeeldave@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  Brent,I agree with what you said about how everyone should have an ultrasound unit, My boat, Quaranta Y Dos, is over thirty years old now and it would give me peace of mind to sound the hull and find any possible thin spots. Could you tell me who manufactures an ultrasound unit and where I could get one?Thanks,Dave| 34285|34284|2017-09-01 18:54:03|brentswain38|Re: Sailing anarchy forums|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sailing anarchy forums have just deleted every post I have ever posted there. while leaving all the attack posts against mine , eliminating my responses, at the request of Bob Perry( with some cash incentive from him , I believe.)This has stolen years of suggestions and ideas  for ways to make cruising more affordable and safer, from cruisers.  They also deleted all pictures anyone ever  posted of good looking origami boats, leaving mostly the ugly ones, again at the request of Bob Perry.People here can post their own pictures ,but they would be deleted . Perry has been trying to devalue your boats, along with those of his "Friend" Yves  Tanton, trying to  mislead people to believe that expensive  stock  plastic boats are their only option.(  while stil calling Tanton his" friend"!) He has attacked any suggestions of ways to  save money, and for low income people  to be able to go cruising.   A friend from the West Indies said I  could use the house he owns down there this winter. I found the name of one of Bob's most ardent attacker's (Smackdaddy's) boat"Gone With the Wind"  a Hunter. I look forward to seeing it down there, and paying him a visit. At any rate, no one should waste their time posting useful info on a site like sailing anarchy,  knowing  that Perry can have it deleted on a whim. I believe he has an attack gang  of employees, paid to attack any one who's posts question him in any way.This has made that  origami boats discussion ,one which is totally controlled by a control freak, with  no knowledge of the subject, and who, by his own admission, hates steel.It has been taken over by plastic boats .Sad, that anyone with  decades  of hands on experience with a subject, can't  pass on what he has learned , because some childishly manipulating ego maniac wants to be the only show in town ,someone with almost zero ocean cruising,  steel boat building ,living aboard and long term cruising experience. Sad, that some get sucked in to paying such a con artist $175 an hour, for advice on something he has zero experience in .Sad that such con artoits can transform the internet sites from what was once a useful exchange of info ,  into something totally useless, controled by such a con artist.| 34286|34256|2017-09-04 18:15:38|brentswain38|Re: Boat project for sale, ultra sound unit.|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :To:brentswain38@...Sep 4 at 10:22 AMhttp://m.idiytools.com/wholesale/thickness-gauges-meters GM100 Ultrasonic Wall Thickness Gauge Meter Tester Gauge Velocity Steel PVC Digital Testing Free shippingHere  it is.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I found it on the sailing anarchy  site, but, unfortunately , they have deleted every post I ever  posted there, at the request of Bob Perry ( with ,I  believe, some cash incentive from him. ) There are many for sale on ebay On Aug 31, 2017, at 8:21 PM, "bilgekeeldave@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  Brent,I agree with what you said about how everyone should have an ultrasound unit, My boat, Quaranta Y Dos, is over thirty years old now and it would give me peace of mind to sound the hull and find any possible thin spots. Could you tell me who manufactures an ultrasound unit and where I could get one?Thanks,Dave | 34287|34287|2017-09-06 17:46:15|brentswain38|yahoo vs hotmail|When corresponding , please use my yahoo address,  instead of my hotmail address,  as hotmail has become finicky and  hard to use. Thanks Brent Swain| 34288|34288|2017-09-07 18:50:29|brentswain38|Another plastic boat sinks|I met a guy last night who was sailing  38 ft plastic boat in Mexico, and hit a whale .It sunk quickly, and left him in his dinghy, in open ocean. Luckily, it was glassy calm, and he had his VHF with him. He  rowed for 2 hours before being picked up. Had she been steel he would have had no problems whatever.The whale population here has grown drastically, and I rarely sail without  seeing several of them, especially humpbacks . They can become a major hazard to boats which cant take a hit from one. Only metal boats can survive that.| 34289|34288|2017-09-07 19:14:26|opuspaul|Re: Another plastic boat sinks|I don't want a boat that wouldn't survive hitting a large object at hull speed yet it seems to be totally accepted.    The boaters in NZ think that hitting a large log while sailing is a rare event yet I have done it many times in the Pacific NW and several times offshore.  There seems to be no end of trash floating around.Ask most modern cruisers if they would sail offshore in their boat with no radios or Epirbs and you will be surprised at what they say.  Most wouldn't go.   People put all their faith in an Epirb now and are perfectly happy with thin hulls, poorly built rudders and safety gear when it is a stout hull and steering that should really be number one.  I know of one light racer where the hull regularly popped and oil canned on the top sides when hit by a wave top.   The guy actually talked about how it would bounce his head when he was sleeping if he happened to put his head between the frames without a pillow.  No thanks.  I prefer to sleep at night.| 34290|34288|2017-09-08 12:03:58|Darren Bos|Insulation| As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34291|34288|2017-09-08 16:07:33|brentswain38|Re: Another plastic boat sinks|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Great post ,PaulThose are the same points and priorities which  got me constantly ridiculed, and eventually banned on sites like  like Cruisers Forum, Sailnet and Sailing Anarchy. Bob Perry's attitude was boats should not be designed to survive  a collision because it is not supposed to happen, and if it does happen, then it is the designers fault. And they pay him $175 an hour for such"Expertise"?I guess I should be grateful for them eliminating the incredibly stupid from my work,but sad that so many get sucked in by a landlubber con artist like that,( costing, we will never know,  how many lives.)  I don't want a boat that wouldn't survive hitting a large object at hull speed yet it seems to be totally accepted.    The boaters in NZ think that hitting a large log while sailing is a rare event yet I have done it many times in the Pacific NW and several times offshore.  There seems to be no end of trash floating around.Ask most modern cruisers if they would sail offshore in their boat with no radios or Epirbs and you will be surprised at what they say.  Most wouldn't go.   People put all their faith in an Epirb now and are perfectly happy with thin hulls, poorly built rudders and safety gear when it is a stout hull and steering that should really be number one.  I know of one light racer where the hull regularly popped and oil canned on the top sides when hit by a wave top.   The guy actually talked about how it would bounce his head when he was sleeping if he happened to put his head between the frames without a pillow.  No thanks.  I prefer to sleep at night.| 34292|34288|2017-09-08 16:19:39|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside.I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup.The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards.DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required?| 34293|34288|2017-09-08 16:55:37|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|This is the problem with a lot of the steel boats made in NZ.    A guy who runs a boatyard told me that they are cutting up several steel boats a year due to rust and no buyers.  I had one broker tell me that all steel boats are rusty on the inside.  When I told him that mine was over 25 years old and completely rust free inside he didn't believe me.   It is such a shame since so much effort goes into building a boat.   This is the last place you want to make short cuts.    >>> Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause..| 34294|34288|2017-09-09 12:17:55|Matt Malone|Re: Insulation| Brent wrote: >Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, >down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. Ok, so, how does one cover the inside of the boat with paneling or how does on attach cabinetry?   Does one screw hardwood blocks to the steel, then foam, and trim the foam flush with the blocks?   Or does one weld on some sort of metal strut or stud or something and leave this flush to the foam?   If I were doing this in a house, I would be thinking of vapour barrier.   So does one seal small fender-washer-shaped pieces of plastic vapour barrier to the foam around the stud so that no condensed moisture can enter the foam?     Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34295|34288|2017-09-09 12:18:08|Matt Malone|Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation)| Brent has repeatedly said that having any exposed metal on the inside of the boat in winter drips water continuously.  He has also said not to foam the bilges of the boat.   This can be used for humidity control in the boat by intentionally using the bare bilge to remove water from the air.   Having a feature that intentionally forms condensation, like the bare bilge, keeps the humidity down in the insulated part of the boat above the floor boards.   The boat becomes a giant dryer driven by passive, IE no electrical energy processes.  Moist clothing hung up in the heated portion of the cabin evaporate water, then air circulating into the bilge condenses the moisture out of the air to liquid water again.   One pumps the bilge by hand regularly to remove the condensation.     All one needs is to set up the circulation of air through the bilge, which can be passively driven by a convection duct from the bilge air up the side of the wood stove.   Yes a portion of the heat from the stove is used to heat bilge air that was previously intentionally cooled, but, short of a powered dehumidifier, it is the simplest solution.   Zero Amp-hours.   Just store firewood, and have a small, efficient wood stove and a circulation duct. It is like zincs.  Zincs concentrate corrosion to the zincs, reducing corrosion everywhere else.   With a running wood stove, and insulation, condensation is concentrated in the bilge.   Other places that would otherwise be prone to condensation, do not condense.        When the wood stove is not burning, the convection in the duct disappears and the cabin will not suffer too badly from the heat loss through the bilge.   The cabin will become more humid as time passes, and as it cools, there is the potential for condensation.   Since one cannot be in a boat with a fire running 24/7/365 in cold water anchorages, one must construct the cabin to be resistant to the effects of humidity, even though it might be capable of being low-humidity some of the time.   For those concerned about intentionally circulating bilge air, see the next post on flammable and explosive vapours.   Matt     From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     This is the problem with a lot of the steel boats made in NZ.    A guy who runs a boatyard told me that they are cutting up several steel boats a year due to rust and no buyers.  I had one broker tell me that all steel boats are rusty on the inside.  When I told him that mine was over 25 years old and completely rust free inside he didn't believe me.   It is such a shame since so much effort goes into building a boat.   This is the last place you want to make short cuts.    >>> Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. | 34296|34288|2017-09-09 12:24:01|Matt Malone|Managing Airborne Hazards in a Steel Boat| Whenever one considers having a source of ignition in a boat, one must be cautious of explosive and flammable vapours and how they might come in contact with the source of ignition.   In my view, and in the view of large-boat designers, and regulations, it is a poor approach that relies at all on insubstantial redundant separations to prevent explosions.    Against this we place the reality in small boats that it is generally one large un-separated air volume inside the hull.   People then imagine safety when there is in reality no guarantee of safety.    Read any proper safety regulations on flammable gases and vapours particularly in living spaces including travel trailers and RVs, and similar regulations on boats.  It is not hard to see they are incompatible.   For instance, last I read, there were no government standards in Canada for installing propane on a small boat.   The propane code, CSA B149.1-2005, Section 1, Scope, 1.2  says "This Code does not apply to (j) propane used on boats."   Transport Canada has no regulation for propane on small boats: TP1332E, 2010.   Other regulations from non-governmental bodies are contradictory.  When it comes down to it, there are risks in boats that just cannot be managed to the same standards of safety as in say houses.   Large ships deal with risks by providing redundant separations.   If one is concerned about intentionally circulating air from an otherwise unsealed bilge, one is relying on an insubstantial separation of the cabin and bilge air as some sort of safety redundancy.   If one had a leak of explosive or flammable vapours into the bilge, then using a dehumidification method that relied on pulling bilge air above the floor boards, will cause the boat to blow up earlier than it otherwise would.   One might argue, without intentional circulation, one would be able to detect the stronger scent of thick vapours if they were more confined to the bilge, where one has been careful to have no sources of ignition.   One imagines that one would be able to do something about a localized concentration of vapours before the boat blows up.   Unfortunately, with thicker vapours, if it does blow up it will be with more force.   The real problem is the material and the leak that caused vapours in the bilge in the first place.   There is no replacement for a sensitive explosive vapour detector with an alarm.  In fact, I would have at least two if I had methanol, propane, butane, compressed petroleum gas, gasoline or any heavier-than-air flammable anywhere on board.   My wood stove would also have an insulated, sealed fire box to keep the combustion temperature high for completeness and efficiency of combustion, and also to prevent the surfaces of the firebox being a contact ignition hazard.   Further, I would use plumbing valves or better to seal the combustion intake air so that, in a moment, the fire could be effectively separated from the cabin air.   Hydrogen from charging batteries and methane (natural gas) are also potential hazards but being lighter than air, it is easier to prevent them from accumulating with top venting in the cabin.   Whenever one considers having a source of ignition in a boat, one must be cautious of explosive and flammable vapours and how they might come in contact with the source of ignition.   It is a poor approach that relies at all on insubstantial separation to prevent explosions.   If one is concerned about intentionally circulating air from an otherwise unsealed bilge, one is relying on an insubstantial separation of the cabin and bilge air.   If one had a leak of explosive or flammable vapours into the bilge, then using this method, pulling bilge air above the floor boards, will cause the boat to blow up earlier than it otherwise would.   One might argue, without intentional circulation, one would be able to detect the stronger scent of thick vapours if they were more confined to the bilge, and be able to do something about them before the boat blows up.   Unfortunately, with thicker vapours, if it does blow up it will be with more force.   The real problem is the material and the leak that caused vapours in the bilge in the first place.   There is no replacement for a sensitive explosive vapour detector with an alarm.  In fact, I would have at least two if I had methanol, propane, butane, compressed petroleum gas, gasoline or any heavier-than-air flammable anywhere on board.    Hydrogen from charging batteries and methane (natural gas) are also potential hazards but being lighter than air, it is easier to prevent them from accumulating with top venting in the cabin.   This brings me to another point, bulkheads, which Brent seems inclined to speak against as, at the least, unnecessary.   If one is building a steel boat from scratch, it is relatively easy to separate the internal air volume into segments, and there are plenty of reasons to do that.   One might merely look to the requirements for large boats and see where separations are required -- battery rooms, engine rooms... etc.   A separation can be as simple as having a sealed, separately-vented locker for propane bottles like is shown here:   http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Safe%20Boat%20propane%20Installation.htm It can be as simple as a separately ventilated chain locker, for occupant comfort, so that one does not have to sleep with the smell of the bottom of the last anchorage.   But there are other reasons.   If one were making a large enough origami, I would be inclined to separate off other areas from the sleeping area of the cabin.   Origami is brilliant in its use of materials and the relatively rapid build process to get to the stage of a closed hull.   That does not mean there are not useful things to be learned from 150 years of steel boats, and lessons to be taken from the regulations governing large ships that might increase the comfort, function, safety and redundancy in a self-made boat.   Matt  | 34297|34288|2017-09-09 14:29:40|bcboomer1948|Re: Managing Airborne Hazards in a Steel Boat|I would think that circulating the air from the bilge would prevent a dangerous build up of gases.  Providing the boat has open dorades to supply fresh air to the cabins.  Some sailboats have dorades ventilating the bilge, but this wouldn't help control moisture.If you insulate your wood stove enough to keep the surface only warm, how are you getting the heat from your fuel into the boat.  Seems like it would mostly be going up the chimney. | 34298|34288|2017-09-09 14:45:16|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| Thanks Brent and Paul, I should say I'm refitting an aluminum boat rather than a new build.  I bought a boat for less than the cost of aluminum for a new build, although it did require gutting and reballasting.  I'm not sure it was really much less work than a new build, but that is the path that I am on now. The original foam job was all styrofoam sheet cut to shape and it was a disaster.  Most of the frame elements were not insulated and dripped just as Brent describes.  Uninsulated aluminum bulkheads also sucked every last bit of heat out through the hull.  A Dickinson Pacific going full blast could only warm the inside temps to 5C when the outside temps were around freezing.  The loose fit of the foam on the hull also provided the perfect environment for some kind of orange/pink mould.  I'm hoping to solve all of this with the spray foam. My boat is aluminum, so the corrosion problems are different than for steel, but I appreciate the extra warning.  I'm still furring out the interior, but it looks like it should be possible to have no less that 1/2" foam on all the surfaces, with most surfaces having 2" of foam.  I have to work out some details like around the windows and masts (two 10" diameter hull-stepped frestanding masts). I'm going to try the Tigerfoam.  My understanding is that it is worth having extra tips on hand because clogging tips is one of the few difficulties.  I'll report back how it goes, I should have it done in the next month. On 17-09-08 01:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34299|34288|2017-09-09 15:18:34|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| Exactly Matt, that is what I am just starting now.  The work is to fasten blocks to frames, or welded tabs if you need to connect something that is not aligned with a frame.  You orient the fasteners so they will not be exposed after the foaming is complete.  Unlike a Brent boat, I have to deal with 6" tall transverse frames.  For these I am attaching wood furring strips to the forward or aft side of the transverse frames.  The furring strips sit 1/2" proud of the frame and the screws that attach them run fore-aft.  Thus, after foaming the screws will be buried in the foam and the wood block serves as a guide to trim the foam back if necessary. If you leave the skin of the urethane foam intact, it's considered to be an adequate vapor barrier.  If you need to cut the foam back, then you should be painting it to try and restore some of the vapor barrier.  I'm tempted to paint all the foam with latex meant for bathrooms which has mould and mildew inhibitors.  I like the look of the ceiling and overhead when finished with 1/4" thick by 2" wide wood planks with a slight gap to allow air circulation.  So, maybe I should use a darker colored paint so the insulation is not easy to see through the gaps. Of course, I'm doing this for the first time. On 17-09-09 09:17 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Brent wrote: >Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, >down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. Ok, so, how does one cover the inside of the boat with paneling or how does on attach cabinetry?   Does one screw hardwood blocks to the steel, then foam, and trim the foam flush with the blocks?   Or does one weld on some sort of metal strut or stud or something and leave this flush to the foam?   If I were doing this in a house, I would be thinking of vapour barrier.   So does one seal small fender-washer-shaped pieces of plastic vapour barrier to the foam around the stud so that no condensed moisture can enter the foam?     Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34300|34288|2017-09-09 16:36:38|Matt Malone|Re: Managing Airborne Hazards in a Steel Boat| In efficient woodstove designs the woodstove is in parts, from the bottom up, ash catcher, grates with combustion air introduced just above or just below, then the insulated firebox,  then just below the catalyst/contact combustion surface there is a second introduction of air to burn the smoke, then the catalyst/contact rack, them the uninsulated heat distribution plenum that is of a heat transfer geometry, then the connection to the chimney.   This sounds complicated but it is not.   The heat transfer geometry might be a section of thick 6" pipe that pierces through the volume of the plenum, increasing surface area and air flow, and therefore heat transfer.  Put a mailbox type door on either end and call it a toaster oven. Once the catalyst is hot there is no smoke which is nice on deck. There are porous formica blocks, that set on an angle as the roof of the firebox, with extra air added on the low side will burn the smoke.  I do not have a for example product to offer now, but tonight I will, I bought some to overhaul a little stove I use in the garage.   It uses less than a third of the wood my more traditional smoky stove uses to heat a space that is half the size.   It uses a box within a box design with grates at the top.   Lastly, the auto ignition temperature of all but acetylene is quite high, one can easily boil water on a stove that will not ignite vapours on the outside.  The insulation just avoids near-red hot spots on the outside from a chance arrangement of wood and air in a single wall uninsulated stove. Matt Malone Root Cause Forensic Science and Engineering Inc. 416-371-2251 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of ndramsey@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:29:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Managing Airborne Hazards in a Steel Boat     I would think that circulating the air from the bilge would prevent a dangerous build up of gases.  Providing the boat has open dorades to supply fresh air to the cabins.  Some sailboats have dorades ventilating the bilge, but this wouldn't help control moisture. If you insulate your wood stove enough to keep the surface only warm, how are you getting the heat from your fuel into the boat.  Seems like it would mostly be going up the chimney.  | 34301|34288|2017-09-09 18:12:55|opuspaul|Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation)|I lived two years on my boat in Vancouver at temps down to -15C.  The hull and deck is insulated with foam while the bilges are bare.  I don't remember the bilges dripping or sweating.   Even if they did, I don't see how it would matter or make a difference to humidity in the boat in a place like Vancouver.   The portholes, especially the frames,  constantly dripped.  Some people put foil backed bubble insulation over them.  It helps a bit but blocks the light.   Nothing is perfect but if you are using spray foam, you will have the driest and quietest boat possible.   The type of fuel you use to heat or cook in your boat makes a big difference.   We cook with propane which adds some moisture to the air but I wouldn't use anything else.  I have a propane detector near the bilge with a solenoid at the tank.  I think it is a very safe system....probaby much safer than a kerosene stove I used on another boat.   A carbon monoxide detector is a good addition for the times when you are motoring and asleep.  I have a smoke alarm but it is a pain and constantly goes off any time we are cooking unless the forward hatch is open and we have a nice air flow through the boat.Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about ventilation in the bilges if you have a diesel and stow any explosive fuels like gasoline on deck.    I had Canadian friends who were killed on their boat by a fire in Fiji .  They didn't have a diesel and used an outboard motor and a gas generator often.   There was an investigation but I supect it was inconclusive since I never heard any results.   I don't know if the fire was from all the gasoline stored on board or from the cooker.  It might have been a case of one thing leading to another.| 34302|34288|2017-09-09 18:19:24|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1375907187 #ygrps-yiv-1375907187ygrps-yiv-45681752 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Brent wrote: >Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, >down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. Ok, so, how does one cover the inside of the boat with paneling or how does on attach cabinetry?   Does one screw hardwood blocks to the steel, then foam, and trim the foam flush with the blocks?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Exactly! Screw your blocks on so the surface of them are  a half inch out from the foam. Then foam. Then cut your foam flush with the blocks.   | 34303|34288|2017-09-09 18:21:51|Matt Malone|Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation)| Do you recall the name of the boat that burned in Fiji? Certainly a lot of portable gas containers is more stuff that can fail.   One fixed, sturdy, welded fuel tank is much more secure. About one thing leading to another, seat cushion foam is essentially solid diesel fuel.  Lots of things can catch fire if one of those starts burning in a closed space. Vancouver is an odd place.  Air at -15C is colder than the water, so one would expect portholes to regularly drip before the bilges. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 9, 18:13 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I lived two years on my boat in Vancouver at temps down to -15C.  The hull and deck is insulated with foam while the bilges are bare.  I don't remember the bilges dripping or sweating.   Even if they did, I don't see how it would matter or make a difference to humidity in the boat in a place like Vancouver.   The portholes, especially the frames,  constantly dripped.  Some people put foil backed bubble insulation over them.  It helps a bit but blocks the light.   Nothing is perfect but if you are using spray foam, you will have the driest and quietest boat possible.   The type of fuel you use to heat or cook in your boat makes a big difference.   We cook with propane which adds some moisture to the air but I wouldn't use anything else.  I have a propane detector near the bilge with a solenoid at the tank.  I think it is a very safe system....probaby much safer than a kerosene stove I used on another boat.   A carbon monoxide detector is a good addition for the times when you are motoring and asleep.  I have a smoke alarm but it is a pain and constantly goes off any time we are cooking unless the forward hatch is open and we have a nice air flow through the boat. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about ventilation in the bilges if you have a diesel and stow any explosive fuels like gasoline on deck.    I had Canadian friends who were killed on their boat by a fire in Fiji .  They didn't have a diesel and used an outboard motor and a gas generator often.   There was an investigation but I supect it was inconclusive since I never heard any results.   I don't know if the fire was from all the gasoline stored on board or from the cooker.  It might have been a case of one thing leading to another. | 34304|34288|2017-09-09 18:33:53|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When Jack Carson's 36 Island Breeze caught fire in San Raphael, at the beginning of her circumnavigation, the roaring fire stopped cold turkey, where the foam had been painted with cheap latex paint.I have been told that  borax eliminates mold. If I were building again , I would consider spraying the foam and the back of paneling with borax in water . The film of borax left when the water evaporates ,just might eliminate the growth of mold there. No harm in trying it. A cheap dollar store spray  bottle  would do the trickExactly Matt, that is what I am just starting now.  The work is to fasten blocks to frames, or welded tabs if you need to connect something that is not aligned with a frame.  You orient the fasteners so they will not be exposed after the foaming is complete.  Unlike a Brent boat, I have to deal with 6" tall transverse frames.  For these I am attaching wood furring strips to the forward or aft side of the transverse frames.  The furring strips sit 1/2" proud of the frame and the screws that attach them run fore-aft.  Thus, after foaming the screws will be buried in the foam and the wood block serves as a guide to trim the foam back if necessary.If you leave the skin of the urethane foam intact, it's considered to be an adequate vapor barrier.  If you need to cut the foam back, then you should be painting it to try and restore some of the vapor barrier.  I'm tempted to paint all the foam with latex meant for bathrooms which has mould and mildew inhibitors.  I like the look of the ceiling and overhead when finished with 1/4" thick by 2" wide wood planks with a slight gap to allow air circulation.  So, maybe I should use a darker colored paint so the insulation is not easy to see through the gaps.Of course, I'm doing this for the first time. On 17-09-09 09:17 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Brent wrote:>Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, >down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. Ok, so, how does one cover the inside of the boat with paneling or how does on attach cabinetry?   Does one screw hardwood blocks to the steel, then foam, and trim the foam flush with the blocks?   Or does one weld on some sort of metal strut or stud or something and leave this flush to the foam?   If I were doing this in a house, I would be thinking of vapour barrier.   So does one seal small fender-washer-shaped pieces of plastic vapour barrier to the foam around the stud so that no condensed moisture can enter the foam?     Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside.I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup.The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards.DON"T  foam the bilges.As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34305|34288|2017-09-09 18:36:41|opuspaul|Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation)|Oblio....it happened in 2012.   Sean and Sharon were real characters and a lot of fun.  They owned a T Shirt shop in Savusavu.  It happened after I left Fiji.   A real tragedy.http://fijisun.com.fj/2012/03/14/deadly-explosion/http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f129/explosion-aboard-the-canadian-yacht-oblio-in-savusavu-78408.html| 34306|34288|2017-09-09 18:39:22|brentswain38|Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation)|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :White styrofoam gives better  insulation than bubble wrap, and lets the light thru. Carpet on the floor reduces heat loss by 35% , and reduces bilge condensation by 80%.You can also insulate the underside of the floor.I lived two years on my boat in Vancouver at temps down to -15C.  The hull and deck is insulated with foam while the bilges are bare.  I don't remember the bilges dripping or sweating.   Even if they did, I don't see how it would matter or make a difference to humidity in the boat in a place like Vancouver.   The portholes, especially the frames,  constantly dripped.  Some people put foil backed bubble insulation over them.  It helps a bit but blocks the light.   Nothing is perfect but if you are using spray foam, you will have the driest and quietest boat possible.   The type of fuel you use to heat or cook in your boat makes a big difference.   We cook with propane which adds some moisture to the air but I wouldn't use anything else.  I have a propane detector near the bilge with a solenoid at the tank.  I think it is a very safe system....probaby much safer than a kerosene stove I used on another boat.   A carbon monoxide detector is a good addition for the times when you are motoring and asleep.  I have a smoke alarm but it is a pain and constantly goes off any time we are cooking unless the forward hatch is open and we have a nice air flow through the boat.Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about ventilation in the bilges if you have a diesel and stow any explosive fuels like gasoline on deck.    I had Canadian friends who were killed on their boat by a fire in Fiji .  They didn't have a diesel and used an outboard motor and a gas generator often.   There was an investigation but I supect it was inconclusive since I never heard any results.   I don't know if the fire was from all the gasoline stored on board or from the cooker.  It might have been a case of one thing leading to another.| 34307|34288|2017-09-09 18:59:07|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|Any remains of the Borax would probably be corrosive in a damp environment.| 34308|34288|2017-09-09 19:26:20|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|Not much  chance of corroding foam, nor the back of plywood paneling. The rest is no more so  than the salty marine environment.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Any remains of the Borax would probably be corrosive in a damp environment.| 34309|34288|2017-09-09 22:36:51|Aaron|Re: Insulation|Check to see if the hull is bonded or grounded to the negative on the battery bank, stray currents from inside the boat will eat the aluminum hull trying to get to ground From: "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation   Thanks Brent and Paul, I should say I'm refitting an aluminum boat rather than a new build.  I bought a boat for less than the cost of aluminum for a new build, although it did require gutting and reballasting.  I'm not sure it was really much less work than a new build, but that is the path that I am on now. The original foam job was all styrofoam sheet cut to shape and it was a disaster.  Most of the frame elements were not insulated and dripped just as Brent describes.  Uninsulated aluminum bulkheads also sucked every last bit of heat out through the hull.  A Dickinson Pacific going full blast could only warm the inside temps to 5C when the outside temps were around freezing.  The loose fit of the foam on the hull also provided the perfect environment for some kind of orange/pink mould.  I'm hoping to solve all of this with the spray foam. My boat is aluminum, so the corrosion problems are different than for steel, but I appreciate the extra warning.  I'm still furring out the interior, but it looks like it should be possible to have no less that 1/2" foam on all the surfaces, with most surfaces having 2" of foam.  I have to work out some details like around the windows and masts (two 10" diameter hull-stepped frestanding masts). I'm going to try the Tigerfoam.  My understanding is that it is worth having extra tips on hand because clogging tips is one of the few difficulties.  I'll report back how it goes, I should have it done in the next month. On 17-09-08 01:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? #ygrps-yiv-870749688 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 -- #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-870749688 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-870749688 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-870749688 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-mkp 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#ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-870749688 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-870749688 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047 #ygrps-yiv-870749688yiv1222317047ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-870749688 | 34310|34288|2017-09-09 23:33:58|Matt Malone|Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation)| I have read what is available on the explosion.  There are many possibilities.  In the Fiji Sun article they mention two explosions.      At 7:30pm both occupants would be likely to be awake and engaged in activities.  It said Sean was ejected from the boat, so likely he was on deck or in the hatchway.  Sharon was inside the cabin.  One might guess there was food prep or cleanup underway, whether she was involved in that activity or not. Gasoline could certainly flash if fumes rolled downhill from a small slop on the rear deck and there was an active ignition source inside like cooking.  Still, active people are likely to notice the hazard promptly.  It seems unlikely to lead to more that a small woof that is little more than startling for alert people.  If it did not woof immediately, there would be time to shut off a stove.   If the hazard was underestimated or not recognized, and time passed, even a small liquid volume of gasoline is a big hazard.   A small amount of gas can produce lot of fumes given time.  If mixing occurred over a period of time, anything is possible.  Gasoline can produce a larger explosion than propane, given the wrong opportunities. A large gasoline spill like liters over a large warm area might make fumes fast enough to make the problem very large very fast.  Even alert people might be taken by surprise.  Still, gasoline fumes without mixing time, even in large volumes pouring into an open companionway makes a nearly inaudible woof as the flame front travels through the liquid-like flowing cloud of fumes.   The cloud is above the upper explosive limit concentration so it burns with a front - lots of flames, no explosion really.  In a sealed boat, and with mixing time, completely different story, but that would leave no open companionway for the fumes to suddenly pour into. So it seems more likely it was propane.   Propane may have silently been mixing with bilge air for some time.  Head height is above stove height and potentially in the path of fresh air so the smell might go unnoticed even if it was odourized propane.  If it was unodourized, it could be undetectable by smell.  A boom could be loud, damaging and disabling.  The first boom could compromise something else leading to a second boom. Alternately a low probability accident moving a tank of propane that released 10-20 pounds of it instantly is possible.  The expulsion of a gush of propane would make a sound like a bump/explosion, and then ignition of the cloud would follow rapidly after with a bigger woof.  The mass of propane that could mix with air in a few seconds is hundreds of times greater than the mass of gasoline that can vapourize in the same time from a simple spill.  A puddle is not the same explosion hazard as a cloud. There is still the possibility of a heated aerosol can (most are half propane now) being the first bump.  Batteries can supply the energy for exploding sounds and flashes at high currents.  There are other solvents perhaps connected to their business making T shirts.  Any of these would have to compromise something else that rapidly releases a flammable to cause a second explosion. Reading the regulations governing industrial confined spaces makes one wonder how any flammables are a good idea in a boat.  (Diesel is a combustible at room temperature.)   Every    measure and caution that can be easily done is worth doing.  Even inconvenient and expensive things are worth considering.  A flammable gas detector is a must, and if it goes off, you may only have seconds. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 9, 18:36 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Humidity control without electrical power (was insulation) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Oblio....it happened in 2012.   Sean and Sharon were real characters and a lot of fun.  They owned a T Shirt shop in Savusavu.  It happened after I left Fiji.   A real tragedy. http://fijisun.com.fj/2012/03/14/deadly-explosion/ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f129/explosion-aboard-the-canadian-yacht-oblio-in-savusavu-78408.html | 34311|34288|2017-09-10 11:54:18|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. On 17-09-09 07:36 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Check to see if the hull is bonded or grounded to the negative on the battery bank, stray currents from inside the boat will eat the aluminum hull trying to get to ground From: "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation   Thanks Brent and Paul, I should say I'm refitting an aluminum boat rather than a new build.  I bought a boat for less than the cost of aluminum for a new build, although it did require gutting and reballasting.  I'm not sure it was really much less work than a new build, but that is the path that I am on now. The original foam job was all styrofoam sheet cut to shape and it was a disaster.  Most of the frame elements were not insulated and dripped just as Brent describes.  Uninsulated aluminum bulkheads also sucked every last bit of heat out through the hull.  A Dickinson Pacific going full blast could only warm the inside temps to 5C when the outside temps were around freezing.  The loose fit of the foam on the hull also provided the perfect environment for some kind of orange/pink mould.  I'm hoping to solve all of this with the spray foam. My boat is aluminum, so the corrosion problems are different than for steel, but I appreciate the extra warning.  I'm still furring out the interior, but it looks like it should be possible to have no less that 1/2" foam on all the surfaces, with most surfaces having 2" of foam.  I have to work out some details like around the windows and masts (two 10" diameter hull-stepped frestanding masts). I'm going to try the Tigerfoam.  My understanding is that it is worth having extra tips on hand because clogging tips is one of the few difficulties.  I'll report back how it goes, I should have it done in the next month. On 17-09-08 01:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34312|34288|2017-09-10 12:06:01|mountain man|Re: Insulation| Will you post pictures of your boat? Marti  On Sep 10, 2017, at 11:54 AM, "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. On 17-09-09 07:36 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Check to see if the hull is bonded or grounded to the negative on the battery bank, stray currents from inside the boat will eat the aluminum hull trying to get to ground From: "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation   Thanks Brent and Paul, I should say I'm refitting an aluminum boat rather than a new build.  I bought a boat for less than the cost of aluminum for a new build, although it did require gutting and reballasting.  I'm not sure it was really much less work than a new build, but that is the path that I am on now. The original foam job was all styrofoam sheet cut to shape and it was a disaster.  Most of the frame elements were not insulated and dripped just as Brent describes.  Uninsulated aluminum bulkheads also sucked every last bit of heat out through the hull.  A Dickinson Pacific going full blast could only warm the inside temps to 5C when the outside temps were around freezing.  The loose fit of the foam on the hull also provided the perfect environment for some kind of orange/pink mould.  I'm hoping to solve all of this with the spray foam. My boat is aluminum, so the corrosion problems are different than for steel, but I appreciate the extra warning.  I'm still furring out the interior, but it looks like it should be possible to have no less that 1/2" foam on all the surfaces, with most surfaces having 2" of foam.  I have to work out some details like around the windows and masts (two 10" diameter hull-stepped frestanding masts). I'm going to try the Tigerfoam.  My understanding is that it is worth having extra tips on hand because clogging tips is one of the few difficulties.  I'll report back how it goes, I should have it done in the next month. On 17-09-08 01:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34313|34288|2017-09-10 17:00:02|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|It sounds like you are doing things right.   It is really hard to isolate the grounds on an engine.  Even with rubber mounts and an isolation plate in the shaft coupling,  it only takes a little bit of corrosion and salt to get stray currents going.   I like the idea of having  isolation/connections in the ground cables.  I favor welding cable connectors or big ass fuses over the manual rotary switches.  The rotary switches may be convenient and may be rated for 300 amps or more but I have seen many bad ones on boats.   They have a surprisingly high failure rate.| 34314|34288|2017-09-10 18:42:38|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| That's an interesting idea Paul.  My concern is ensuring that all of the crew can readily start the boat should the need arise.  In this case, the youngest crew members are going to be 9 and 12 when we head out, so convenience and ease also play into the equation.  On 17-09-10 02:00 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   It sounds like you are doing things right.   It is really hard to isolate the grounds on an engine.  Even with rubber mounts and an isolation plate in the shaft coupling,  it only takes a little bit of corrosion and salt to get stray currents going.   I like the idea of having  isolation/connections in the ground cables.  I favor welding cable connectors or big ass fuses over the manual rotary switches.  The rotary switches may be convenient and may be rated for 300 amps or more but I have seen many bad ones on boats.   They have a surprisingly high failure rate. | 34315|34288|2017-09-10 18:44:25|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| Right now she's a pretty empty hull.  I'll put together some pics when she is furred out, and some more to show how it looks after the foam is in.  On 17-09-10 09:05 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Will you post pictures of your boat? Marti  On Sep 10, 2017, at 11:54 AM, "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. On 17-09-09 07:36 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Check to see if the hull is bonded or grounded to the negative on the battery bank, stray currents from inside the boat will eat the aluminum hull trying to get to ground From: "Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation   Thanks Brent and Paul, I should say I'm refitting an aluminum boat rather than a new build.  I bought a boat for less than the cost of aluminum for a new build, although it did require gutting and reballasting.  I'm not sure it was really much less work than a new build, but that is the path that I am on now. The original foam job was all styrofoam sheet cut to shape and it was a disaster.  Most of the frame elements were not insulated and dripped just as Brent describes.  Uninsulated aluminum bulkheads also sucked every last bit of heat out through the hull.  A Dickinson Pacific going full blast could only warm the inside temps to 5C when the outside temps were around freezing.  The loose fit of the foam on the hull also provided the perfect environment for some kind of orange/pink mould.  I'm hoping to solve all of this with the spray foam. My boat is aluminum, so the corrosion problems are different than for steel, but I appreciate the extra warning.  I'm still furring out the interior, but it looks like it should be possible to have no less that 1/2" foam on all the surfaces, with most surfaces having 2" of foam.  I have to work out some details like around the windows and masts (two 10" diameter hull-stepped frestanding masts). I'm going to try the Tigerfoam.  My understanding is that it is worth having extra tips on hand because clogging tips is one of the few difficulties.  I'll report back how it goes, I should have it done in the next month. On 17-09-08 01:19 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Your price for tiger foam sounds  very  reasonable.People who have used it all said it as easy to use. Make DAMNED SURE you have several coats of epoxy on before foaming. That is the most commons screwup on steel boats, which has caused more steel boats to have a short life than any other cause.. Foam is definitely NOT  adequate protection for steel. You DON"T  get a second shot at it, if it is wrong ,unlike the outside. I have seen far too many boats lost, due to this screwup. The tiniest spot of steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in winter. Leave at least a quarter inch, preferably more, of foam over all steel, down to the floor boards. DON"T  foam the bilges. As the cold weather approaches I'm getting ready to insulate the boat.  I've still got some furring work to do, but I'm starting to think about insulation.  The two options seem to be a DIY kit like TigerFoam, or hiring a local contractor.  I've talked with one home builder who used TigerFoam and have seen pictures of the result.  He said it was not particularly difficult to spray.  His result looked very good and in most places he did not have to cut the foam back to size.  For my 39' boat I think I have about 465 sq ft I need to insulate.  That would be two Tiger Foam 600 kits @ $575US each to give 2" thick finished foam and some allowance for wastage. Alternatively, does anyone around Vancouver have experience with a spray insulation company they could recommend?  Or if not around Vancouver, what to look for in terms of foam type and cost.  Could you give me an idea of what the price was like for a commercial contractor and how much rework of the foam was required? | 34316|34288|2017-09-10 19:16:25|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Looks like a good opportunity to run conduit behind the foam to make wiring changes easy,anytime. Water soluable machine oil in the ballast may be a good idea.Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. | 34317|34288|2017-09-10 19:19:33|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|When my rotary switch  melted down , I went for a Mexican ceramic based knife switch . No further problems.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :  I favor welding cable connectors or big ass fuses over the manual rotary switches.  The rotary switches may be convenient and may be rated for 300 amps or more but I have seen many bad ones on boats.   They have a surprisingly high failure rate.| 34318|34288|2017-09-10 19:21:08|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|FWIW, I don't think your idea with the LEDs is going to work.  They don't need much current but you need about 1.6 or 1.7 volts for an led to light up.  Corrosion will start with much less.  I think the VDO gauges must use a special circuit to sense leakage.You can check for voltage (leakage) and bonding with a standard multimeter.  I met one guy who bought a silver chloride cell to help out with his aluminum boat but I believe they are quite expensive.  Some people use a regular zinc over the side and compensate the voltage readings.  Just google it and you get a lot of results.| 34319|34288|2017-09-10 19:31:58|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|I have seen more than one cruiser screwed by the rotary switches.   They will go intermittent, cause funny problems with fading or unstable voltage or outright fail at the worst possible time.  They can also be a fire hazard.   I have seen burnt and charred wood under them when they overheated due to a poor connection.   With a dual alternator and battery system (one small one for start, one large one for house), I don't need them and don't have any on my boat.  If I bought a boat with them, I would look at getting rid of them.  I have no idea why they are so popular but they seem to be the norm.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When my rotary switch  melted down , I went for a Mexican ceramic based knife switch . No further problems.| 34320|34288|2017-09-10 19:36:19|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Maybe a bit of stainless  on cement board, under such switches, may be a good idea.I have seen more than one cruiser screwed by the rotary switches.   They will go intermittent, cause funny problems with fading or unstable voltage or outright fail at the worst possible time.  They can also be a fire hazard.   I have seen burnt and charred wood under them when they overheated due to a poor connection.   With a dual alternator and battery system (one small one for start, one large one for house), I don't need them and don't have any on my boat.  If I bought a boat with them, I would look at getting rid of them.  I have no idea why they are so popular but they seem to be the norm.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When my rotary switch  melted down , I went for a Mexican ceramic based knife switch . No further problems.| 34321|34288|2017-09-10 19:56:29|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|I would just get rid of them.   They may not be as convenient but welding cable connectors or honking big knife connectors can carry heaps of current and will show when they are arced up or burnt sufaces.  They are cheaper and probably last forever.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Maybe a bit of stainless  on cement board, under such switches, may be a good idea.| 34322|34288|2017-09-10 20:07:35|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|This is the style I am thinking of..... very cheap.https://www.amazon.com/WeldingCity-Welding-Connector-DINSE-Style-200Amp-300Amp/dp/B00GK60XT6/ref=sr_1_8?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1505088388&sr=1-8&keywords=welding+cable+connector| 34323|34288|2017-09-10 21:08:38|Matt Malone|Efficient Woodstove designs| Efficient woodstoves have stacked designs like this: - connection to flue - heat transfer plenum of a geometry that makes for better heat transfer - catalyst or contact combustion panel to burn the smoke - added air, preferrably pre-heated to combine with the smoke so the smoke can be catalytically converted or burned before entering the plenum - this air can be added in larger quantities provided it does not cool the smoke too much and move the catalyst or combustor out of its operating temperature range.   - insulated firebox, not so much to keep the outside of the stove cool but more to keep the fire hot even at very low combustion rates -- this greatly decreases the rate at which wood MAY be burned, and still have a clean fire.   - grate to support the wood - primary combustion air that can be tightly controlled. Here is a particular diagram of a stove using a baffle with two air feeds, one to burn the wood, one to burn the smoke: https://kumastorage.blob.core.windows.net/content/images/Kuma-Stove-Illustration-300.png If the lower firebox were insulated and the baffle were catalytic or a good contact combustor (see below) it could be good at burning smoke.   Here is a more geometrically complex design with a catalyst, note the explicit preheating of the air to the catalyst:   https://www.firecatcombustors.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/UserGuide/cross-section.jpg Note there is a flame shield to keep the catalyst from being directly overheated by the fire.   It seems that a wood supporting grate made out of schedule 80 pipes would make a great preheater in one structure:   Below is an example of what can be done to make a heat exchanger to get the most heat out of the wood you burn.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGGK8mPvpQ I give these examples just to show the range of possible ways one might build a stove.   If one is welding a boat, welding a little wood burner is nothing, so I encourage building one that suits your boat.  Note, these large stove ideas suitable for buildings can all be scaled down to fit in a boat.  Just remember in scaling down the firebox, the smaller the firebox, the better insulated it should be to keep the combustion temperatures high.    That might seem backwards, but think about it for a while, it is true.   Heat loss from the firebox is by surface area, heat generation in the firebox is by volume.  A 2 foot cube has 24 square feet of surface area, 8 cubic feet of volume -- 3 to 1 ratio.   A 1 foot cube has 6 square feet of surface area, 1 cubic foot of volume -- a 6 to 1 ratio.   The smaller box has a greater surface area is for its unit of volume.   No matter the shape, if one makes it smaller, the volume falls faster than the surface area.  For the cube example, one needs twice the inches of thickness of insulation on the smaller box to keep it as warm as the larger box.      So a smaller stove actually needs thicker-in-inches insulation to keep the same temperature inside. In low-burn-rate, no smoke, high-heat-output conditions, the inside of the firebox is very hot.  If a contact combustor is used it is very hot also, glowing a uniform bright orange for sure over its entire width.  Steel baffles do not make really good contact combusters because they are too conductive of heat and cannot be maintained at a high enough surface temperature to get the most out of the secondary smoke burning reaction.   A steel baffle that is maintained at a temperature like this will degrade quickly.    If a catalyst is used it will be at a lower temperature, typically not much higher than 500F which is a  temperature where no glow is visible to the naked eye, and never much hotter than a dull red at its very hottest or it will degrade.   Naturally one should review the actual technical specifications of the catalyst used.   If one were creating their own little catalytic stove for a boat, a bolt that might be unthreaded from a hole to allow a non-contact temperature gun to see in to the catalyst might be useful in experimentation.  One would use these measurements to set up the air-damper stops so actual operation is a no-brainer.   Once the smoke burner is up to temperature, the combustion air is turned down so that fuel use is minimized.  If a contact combustor is used, then as much secondary air can be added as possible as long as the contact combustor is still glowing a bright orange at low burn rates.  If a catalyst is used then the air is increased even more so that the catalyst is at the lower end of its operating temperature range.   That provides a good volume of air flowing in the plenum and good heating.   Comparing an efficient stove to a old smoker-type farmer's stove, I feed the efficient stove 5 pounds of softwood scraps and the 17x21' garage is toasty warm for 16+ hours.  I feed the old smoker stove 10-15 pounds of hardwood and it keeps a cabin less than half the size warm for less than 8 hours.   There is no comparison.  Since the efficient stove uses a vermiculite contact combustor, no complex design or active monitoring of the catalyst temperature is needed.        In an earlier post I said formica...  it is actually vermiculite board that is one option for a contact combustor.   Now, everything has an autoignition temperature, a temperature at which it will a compound will spontaneously combine with free oxygen and burn without a flame to ignite it.   Smoke is the same.   If smoke runs over an rough, orange-hot surface with surplus oxygen, the oxygen will combine with the smoke and more completely burn it.   Based on my observations, that seems to be how the vermiculite board works.   It appears to be simply a really good insulator so that the fire side of it gets really hot and stays really hot and just acts as a contact surface to trigger the combustion of smoke.   Here are some for-example products: What I think is just a contact combustor: https://www.amazon.ca/Drolet-VERMICULITE-BOARD-2Pack-AC02560/dp/B009YZLI9Y An example of a chemical catalyst: https://www.amazon.com/Honeycomb-Catalytic-Combustor-CC-251-CASTINGS/dp/B01AHFMMQM Note the price difference.   I like the vermiculite because it is cheaper, comes in big slabs, and can be cut to size with a wood blade in a table saw.   If it degrades, just put in a new piece of a slab.   All these materials are brittle, so, I have not just a wood rack in my stove but a complete cage preventing the wood from hitting the vermiculite board.   In a boat, I would want the insulation tight fitting or cemented in, and the catalyst or combustor so secure that it cannot move at all, or it will slowly rattle and crumble where it contacts.   What is the connection between an efficient woodstove and a woodstove that burns its own smoke?  When a stove burns its own smoke, it burns most of the soot and resins and creosote in the smoke that would otherwise build up on all cooler surfaces in the stove and flue.   Cooler surfaces are where the heat is getting transferred out of the flue gases and into the space one wants to heat.   Buildups on the inside of these surfaces would insulate them and make those surfaces really lousy at transferring heat to where one wants it.   So cleaner burning leads to better heat transfer.   With a really hot, clean burn, one can have a really complicated heat transfer plenum without worrying about having to scrape it out all the time.   If you have used an old smoker-type farmer's stove, like the one at my cabin, or a single wall uninsulated stove, from time to time, you have to clean the chimney and scrape the buildup off of the inside surfaces of the stove.   When you do that, surprise surprise, it is better at heating for a while.    Also, a hot-burning efficient stove, when it is cold and unused, it does not smell as much like poorly-burnt, acrid wood smoke and creosote, like the old smokers do.   There have to be health benefits to that if one is around it all the time.      I know Brent has a stove design in his boat.   I have never seen it, and I am not saying it is bad.  If one invests more effort in a better stove design it can give much better results.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Looks like a good opportunity to run conduit behind the foam to make wiring changes easy,anytime.  Water soluable machine oil in the ballast may be a good idea. Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. | 34324|34288|2017-09-11 00:07:06|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| Water soluble machine oil is a good idea Brent, I just haven't found the right one yet.  I set up my ballast with standpipe that rises above waterline with a reservoir.  That way if it ever has a failure of any kind oil will leak out (slowly due to the low pressure head) rather than water in.  The ideal oil would be water miscible, contain anti-corrosion additives, yet still allow me to weld again should I ever have a problem.  I considered silicone oil because it is non-toxic and would making welding repairs easy, but it is pretty pricey.  It looks like biodegradeable hydraulic oil, or water soluble machine oils are the next to investigate. On 17-09-10 04:16 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Looks like a good opportunity to run conduit behind the foam to make wiring changes easy,anytime.  Water soluable machine oil in the ballast may be a good idea. Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. | 34325|34325|2017-09-11 11:40:23|magicod|Main Hatch latch|I would really appreciate seeing photos of the Main Hatch latch.  I have not been able to figure it out from the photo in Brent's book.  I am sure it will turn out to be very simple.Thanks in advance,Stephen| 34326|34326|2017-09-11 13:08:05|bilgekeeldave|How much does a 30 foot Brent Swain boat weigh?|I am going to haul my twin keeled Brent Swain 30 out. I have a no cost place to put it next to the water where I can work on it, but I have to hire a crane to get it out. I was told it weighs eight tons, is that about right?The road to the water has a turn in it and it is steep so I couldn't get a big rig down to the water but a smaller crane could get there, that's why I like to know what sized crane I'd have to hire.Thanks.| 34327|34288|2017-09-11 13:46:53|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| I'll have to think about that.  Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about electrolysis and not galvanic corrosion?  Are you saying that if the nominally 12V battery shorts through a high enough resistance that the voltage seen at the LED would be too low to illuminate it? I had planned to get a silver chloride electrode as it seems to be the only way to really be sure you have the right amount of zinc anodes.  More than the cost is that any electrode has a fixed life, so it is also a consumable.  However, compared to the cost of even one gallon of bottom paint (ignoring haulout fees, epoxy coats etc...), it seems like $125 for a probe might be good insurance against damage from electrolysis, galvanic corrosion, or paint peeling from too much zinc. http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html On 17-09-10 04:21 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   FWIW, I don't think your idea with the LEDs is going to work.  They don't need much current but you need about 1.6 or 1.7 volts for an led to light up.  Corrosion will start with much less.  I think the VDO gauges must use a special circuit to sense leakage. You can check for voltage (leakage) and bonding with a standard multimeter.  I met one guy who bought a silver chloride cell to help out with his aluminum boat but I believe they are quite expensive.  Some people use a regular zinc over the side and compensate the voltage readings.  Just google it and you get a lot of results. | 34328|34288|2017-09-11 17:45:44|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|People can debate it but I have always thought of galvanic corrosion and electrolysis as the same thing.  It can be caused by either two disimilar metals or by wiring but both involve electron flow with the metals coming in contact with each other either direct or via an electrolyte.  It almost always involves salt water in boats, even with dissimilar metals high in the rigging.    Having faulty wiring just makes it worse (or even reverse) to anything exposed and can cause a huge amount of damage in a very, very short time.  I originally had problems in my boat by plugging in to a dock without using an isolation transformer.  I think my boat wiring was good and I was probably zinced OK but by not using any isolation, I was now in a circuit to all the other boats and bad dock wiring and ended up with small blisters on my boat.  My bad.  It was a painful and expensive lesson by a rookie too cheap and ignorant to do it right :).Crevice corrosion is slightly different and a special case where you can get corrosion in cracks of the same metal. Occasionally you might see it in SS brackets or rigging.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crevice_corrosionThe LEDs would show a major electrical short or fault but so will a voltmeter and ammeter on the panel which I think every boat should have.   With electrolysis you need to see a tiny voltage which an LED or a 12 volt panel meter will never pick up.  So you use a millivolt scale multimeter direct on the fittings which can read fractions of volts and reference it to a standard like a silver chloride cell.  I thought the silver chloride cells were much more than $125.  I seem to remember someone paying over $400 for one but that was a few years ago.  You are right, it is only the cost of one can of paint.   You might find them cheaper direct out of China.   If I was going to own an alloy boat for the next 10 or 20 years, I would probably buy one.   To be honest, I have only heard of few cruisers who owned one.  One had replaced some bad plates on his boat so he was particularly vigilant.If you paint your boat well with a good and thick barrier coat, electrolysis shouldn't be that much of a problem, even with an alloy boat.  If I owned an alloy boat, I would use a high quality two pack paint that has the glass flake in it.   Either Interprotect or Ameron 400 with the flake additive.  This was discussed here not too long ago but you can google it and find lots of info.    I would zinc it like a steel boat and watch it really closely the first few months or year to see how long the zincs last and see if there is any corrosion on your prop.  If the zincs are only lasting 6 months, add more but don't over zinc it.  It is best to weld them but you could have some studs already in place to bolt them on in a pinch.  I use bolts for my zincs on my steel boat and then just hit the nut and tab of the zinc with a small tack weld once they are bolted tight for a good electrical bond.  I can file or break the tacks later if I want to replace them and can't use my welder.FWIW, I only use one large zinc on my boat located near the prop with a smaller zinc on the rudder and the trim tab.  I started with two big zincs  but found one was OK.  The big zinc is the rectangular style which has the tabs sticking out.   It will last a couple of years.  I have plastic (Marelon) thru hulls which probably one of the reasons why the zinc lasts so long.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'll have to think about that.  Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about electrolysis and not galvanic corrosion?  Are you saying that if the nominally 12V battery shorts through a high enough resistance that the voltage seen at the LED would be too low to illuminate it?I had planned to get a silver chloride electrode as it seems to be the only way to really be sure you have the right amount of zinc anodes.  More than the cost is that any electrode has a fixed life, so it is also a consumable.  However, compared to the cost of even one gallon of bottom paint (ignoring haulout fees, epoxy coats etc...), it seems like $125 for a probe might be good insurance against damage from electrolysis, galvanic corrosion, or paint peeling from too much zinc.http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html | 34329|34288|2017-09-11 19:17:04|Matt Malone|Re: Insulation| LEDs are current devices.   If the resistance is too high, yes the LED can be too dim to see.  If one has a second 2.8V LED, (red or green) like one gets at Radio Shack for $2, and you poke it into a box, and view it in the dark, you should be able to see 0.1mA, or up to 100kOhms, especially if it flickers. Yes most corrosion is less than 1V so you could have galvanic corrosion and no light on an LED. There are lower voltage LEDs but even a one- junction LED of 0.7V (never seen one) could still miss galvanic corrosion. $10 multimeters are now 1000 times better than good lab equipment was in the 1940s to ready galvanic voltages.  It can easily read milliVolts.  Use a multimeter. A zinc over the side would be what I would use longterm.  I would buy a silver chloride cell to check when it is new, when it wears out, a zinc.  If I got suspicious and I am thinking about all new paint or chancing it, might buy or borrow a slver chloride cell or hire a surveyor with a silver chloride cell to give me data. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, September 11, 13:47 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I'll have to think about that.  Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about electrolysis and not galvanic corrosion?  Are you saying that if the nominally 12V battery shorts through a high enough resistance that the voltage seen at the LED would be too low to illuminate it? I had planned to get a silver chloride electrode as it seems to be the only way to really be sure you have the right amount of zinc anodes.  More than the cost is that any electrode has a fixed life, so it is also a consumable.  However, compared to the cost of even one gallon of bottom paint (ignoring haulout fees, epoxy coats etc...), it seems like $125 for a probe might be good insurance against damage from electrolysis, galvanic corrosion, or paint peeling from too much zinc. http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html On 17-09-10 04:21 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   FWIW, I don't think your idea with the LEDs is going to work.  They don't need much current but you need about 1.6 or 1.7 volts for an led to light up.  Corrosion will start with much less.  I think the VDO gauges must use a special circuit to sense leakage. You can check for voltage (leakage) and bonding with a standard multimeter.  I met one guy who bought a silver chloride cell to help out with his aluminum boat but I believe they are quite expensive.  Some people use a regular zinc over the side and compensate the voltage readings.  Just google it and you get a lot of results. | 34330|34288|2017-09-11 19:27:11|brentswain38|Re: Efficient Woodstove designs|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1221792930 #ygrps-yiv-1221792930ygrps-yiv-1421411620 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Thanks MattGreat infoAn old steam tug skipper said that when he removed the grates from his firebox, he reduced his wood consumption by 30%. When a coal gets small enough to  drop thru the grate , it falls into the ashes, and cools, unburned.  Wood burns best in its own ashes,whereas a coal fire us put out by its ashes. Grates are for coal , not wood.Lots of good info in that Kuma stove picture. I run my intake air in the back of my stove , and forward inside, thru a preheating pipe. Drastically reduces creosote. I doubt I would have enough  heat to burn the smoke, when damped down for an all night burn. I have got up to 14 hours out of single load of wood. I prefer red  cedar , as it can be damped down much further than harder woods, without the fire going out.Looks like the air intake in the kuma stove -1 to2 would just go over the wood and straight up the stove pipe.With  a fixed baffle the creosote would  pile up on it ,and be hard to remove when cleaning the stove pipe. A friend recently complained of that  problem. Sliding the baffle  forward  makes it easy to start a fire and get a good draft, before sliding it back.If I wake up to a hot cabin, it means the stove is down to coals,and about to go out.  So I get up and  cram some more wood in, which cools things , and then the stove will burn on till late morning, and I wake to a warm cabin.That air going up the back of the Kuma stove would reduce the power of the draft, it seems.A friend slightly insulated the stove pipe ,and claims it eliminated creosote, keeping the pipe too warm for creosote to condense on.Wood supply is no problem here. The beaches are piled high with it, free fotr the taking.A few minutes with a chainsaw gives you a  week's supply, a pleasant pastime.Efficient woodstoves have stacked designs like this:- connection to flue- heat transfer plenum of a geometry that makes for better heat transfer- catalyst or contact combustion panel to burn the smoke- added air, preferrably pre-heated to combine with the smoke so the smoke can be catalytically converted or burned before entering the plenum - this air can be added in larger quantities provided it does not cool the smoke too much and move the catalyst or combustor out of its operating temperature range.  - insulated firebox, not so much to keep the outside of the stove cool but more to keep the fire hot even at very low combustion rates -- this greatly decreases the rate at which wood MAY be burned, and still have a clean fire.   - grate to support the wood- primary combustion air that can be tightly controlled.Here is a particular diagram of a stove using a baffle with two air feeds, one to burn the wood, one to burn the smoke:https://kumastorage.blob.core.windows.net/content/images/Kuma-Stove-Illustration-300.png If the lower firebox were insulated and the baffle were catalytic or a good contact combustor (see below) it could be good at burning smoke.   Here is a more geometrically complex design with a catalyst, note the explicit preheating of the air to the catalyst:   https://www.firecatcombustors.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/UserGuide/cross-section.jpg Note there is a flame shield to keep the catalyst from being directly overheated by the fire.   It seems that a wood supporting grate made out of schedule 80 pipes would make a great preheater in one structure:   Below is an example of what can be done to make a heat exchanger to get the most heat out of the wood you burn.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGGK8mPvpQI give these examples just to show the range of possible ways one might build a stove.   If one is welding a boat, welding a little wood burner is nothing, so I encourage building one that suits your boat.  Note, these large stove ideas suitable for buildings can all be scaled down to fit in a boat.  Just remember in scaling down the firebox, the smaller the firebox, the better insulated it should be to keep the combustion temperatures high.    That might seem backwards, but think about it for a while, it is true.   Heat loss from the firebox is by surface area, heat generation in the firebox is by volume.  A 2 foot cube has 24 square feet of surface area, 8 cubic feet of volume -- 3 to 1 ratio.   A 1 foot cube has 6 square feet of surface area, 1 cubic foot of volume -- a 6 to 1 ratio.   The smaller box has a greater surface area is for its unit of volume.   No matter the shape, if one makes it smaller, the volume falls faster than the surface area.  For the cube example, one needs twice the inches of thickness of insulation on the smaller box to keep it as warm as the larger box.      So a smaller stove actually needs thicker-in-inches insulation to keep the same temperature inside.In low-burn-rate, no smoke, high-heat-output conditions, the inside of the firebox is very hot.  If a contact combustor is used it is very hot also, glowing a uniform bright orange for sure over its entire width.  Steel baffles do not make really good contact combusters because they are too conductive of heat and cannot be maintained at a high enough surface temperature to get the most out of the secondary smoke burning reaction.   A steel baffle that is maintained at a temperature like this will degrade quickly.   If a catalyst is used it will be at a lower temperature, typically not much higher than 500F which is a  temperature where no glow is visible to the naked eye, and never much hotter than a dull red at its very hottest or it will degrade.   Naturally one should review the actual technical specifications of the catalyst used.   If one were creating their own little catalytic stove for a boat, a bolt that might be unthreaded from a hole to allow a non-contact temperature gun to see in to the catalyst might be useful in experimentation.  One would use these measurements to set up the air-damper stops so actual operation is a no-brainer.   Once the smoke burner is up to temperature, the combustion air is turned down so that fuel use is minimized.  If a contact combustor is used, then as much secondary air can be added as possible as long as the contact combustor is still glowing a bright orange at low burn rates.  If a catalyst is used then the air is increased even more so that the catalyst is at the lower end of its operating temperature range.   That provides a good volume of air flowing in the plenum and good heating.   Comparing an efficient stove to a old smoker-type farmer's stove, I feed the efficient stove 5 pounds of softwood scraps and the 17x21' garage is toasty warm for 16+ hours.  I feed the old smoker stove 10-15 pounds of hardwood and it keeps a cabin less than half the size warm for less than 8 hours.   There is no comparison.  Since the efficient stove uses a vermiculite contact combustor, no complex design or active monitoring of the catalyst temperature is needed.        In an earlier post I said formica...  it is actually vermiculite board that is one option for a contact combustor.   Now, everything has an autoignition temperature, a temperature at which it will a compound will spontaneously combine with free oxygen and burn without a flame to ignite it.   Smoke is the same.   If smoke runs over an rough, orange-hot surface with surplus oxygen, the oxygen will combine with the smoke and more completely burn it.   Based on my observations, that seems to be how the vermiculite board works.   It appears to be simply a really good insulator so that the fire side of it gets really hot and stays really hot and just acts as a contact surface to trigger the combustion of smoke.   Here are some for-example products:What I think is just a contact combustor:https://www.amazon.ca/Drolet-VERMICULITE-BOARD-2Pack-AC02560/dp/B009YZLI9YAn example of a chemical catalyst: https://www.amazon.com/Honeycomb-Catalytic-Combustor-CC-251-CASTINGS/dp/B01AHFMMQM Note the price difference.   I like the vermiculite because it is cheaper, comes in big slabs, and can be cut to size with a wood blade in a table saw.   If it degrades, just put in a new piece of a slab.   All these materials are brittle, so, I have not just a wood rack in my stove but a complete cage preventing the wood from hitting the vermiculite board.   In a boat, I would want the insulation tight fitting or cemented in, and the catalyst or combustor so secure that it cannot move at all, or it will slowly rattle and crumble where it contacts.   What is the connection between an efficient woodstove and a woodstove that burns its own smoke?  When a stove burns its own smoke, it burns most of the soot and resins and creosote in the smoke that would otherwise build up on all cooler surfaces in the stove and flue.   Cooler surfaces are where the heat is getting transferred out of the flue gases and into the space one wants to heat.   Buildups on the inside of these surfaces would insulate them and make those surfaces really lousy at transferring heat to where one wants it.   So cleaner burning leads to better heat transfer.   With a really hot, clean burn, one can have a really complicated heat transfer plenum without worrying about having to scrape it out all the time.   If you have used an old smoker-type farmer's stove, like the one at my cabin, or a single wall uninsulated stove, from time to time, you have to clean the chimney and scrape the buildup off of the inside surfaces of the stove.   When you do that, surprise surprise, it is better at heating for a while.    Also, a hot-burning efficient stove, when it is cold and unused, it does not smell as much like poorly-burnt, acrid wood smoke and creosote, like the old smokers do.   There have to be health benefits to that if one is around it all the time.      I know Brent has a stove design in his boat.   I have never seen it, and I am not saying it is bad.  If one invests more effort in a better stove design it can give much better results.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Looks like a good opportunity to run conduit behind the foam to make wiring changes easy,anytime. Water soluable machine oil in the ballast may be a good idea.Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. | 34331|34288|2017-09-11 19:27:31|Matt Malone|Re: Insulation| I concur that electrolytic corrosion can do huge damage in a very short amount of time.  Minutes from bare steel to a hole is not impossible if a high voltage AC appliance falls overboard and the hull is not isolated from the AC source.  Smaller trickles, perhaps not even originating on your own boat and overnight, over a weekend or one week in a berth beside a leaky boat that shares a mooring bit with yours is not at all surprising. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, September 11, 17:46 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   People can debate it but I have always thought of galvanic corrosion and electrolysis as the same thing.  It can be caused by either two disimilar metals or by wiring but both involve electron flow with the metals coming in contact with each other either direct or via an electrolyte.  It almost always involves salt water in boats, even with dissimilar metals high in the rigging.    Having faulty wiring just makes it worse (or even reverse) to anything exposed and can cause a huge amount of damage in a very, very short time.  I originally had problems in my boat by plugging in to a dock without using an isolation transformer.  I think my boat wiring was good and I was probably zinced OK but by not using any isolation, I was now in a circuit to all the other boats and bad dock wiring and ended up with small blisters on my boat.  My bad.  It was a painful and expensive lesson by a rookie too cheap and ignorant to do it right :). Crevice corrosion is slightly different and a special case where you can get corrosion in cracks of the same metal. Occasionally you might see it in SS brackets or rigging.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crevice_corrosion The LEDs would show a major electrical short or fault but so will a voltmeter and ammeter on the panel which I think every boat should have.   With electrolysis you need to see a tiny voltage which an LED or a 12 volt panel meter will never pick up.  So you use a millivolt scale multimeter direct on the fittings which can read fractions of volts and reference it to a standard like a silver chloride cell.  I thought the silver chloride cells were much more than $125.  I seem to remember someone paying over $400 for one but that was a few years ago.  You are right, it is only the cost of one can of paint.   You might find them cheaper direct out of China.   If I was going to own an alloy boat for the next 10 or 20 years, I would probably buy one.   To be honest, I have only heard of few cruisers who owned one.  One had replaced some bad plates on his boat so he was particularly vigilant. If you paint your boat well with a good and thick barrier coat, electrolysis shouldn't be that much of a problem, even with an alloy boat.  If I owned an alloy boat, I would use a high quality two pack paint that has the glass flake in it.   Either Interprotect or Ameron 400 with the flake additive.  This was discussed here not too long ago but you can google it and find lots of info.    I would zinc it like a steel boat and watch it really closely the first few months or year to see how long the zincs last and see if there is any corrosion on your prop.  If the zincs are only lasting 6 months, add more but don't over zinc it.  It is best to weld them but you could have some studs already in place to bolt them on in a pinch.  I use bolts for my zincs on my steel boat and then just hit the nut and tab of the zinc with a small tack weld once they are bolted tight for a good electrical bond.  I can file or break the tacks later if I want to replace them and can't use my welder. FWIW, I only use one large zinc on my boat located near the prop with a smaller zinc on the rudder and the trim tab.  I started with two big zincs  but found one was OK.  The big zinc is the rectangular style which has the tabs sticking out.   It will last a couple of years.  I have plastic (Marelon) thru hulls which probably one of the reasons why the zinc lasts so long. Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I'll have to think about that.  Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about electrolysis and not galvanic corrosion?  Are you saying that if the nominally 12V battery shorts through a high enough resistance that the voltage seen at the LED would be too low to illuminate it? I had planned to get a silver chloride electrode as it seems to be the only way to really be sure you have the right amount of zinc anodes.  More than the cost is that any electrode has a fixed life, so it is also a consumable.  However, compared to the cost of even one gallon of bottom paint (ignoring haulout fees, epoxy coats etc...), it seems like $125 for a probe might be good insurance against damage from electrolysis, galvanic corrosion, or paint peeling from too much zinc. http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html | 34332|34326|2017-09-11 19:30:21|brentswain38|Re: How much does a 30 foot Brent Swain boat weigh?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :6 tons empty, if the interior is not overbuilt. 8 tones has a good safety factor, as long as you empty it.I am going to haul my twin keeled Brent Swain 30 out. I have a no cost place to put it next to the water where I can work on it, but I have to hire a crane to get it out. I was told it weighs eight tons, is that about right?The road to the water has a turn in it and it is steep so I couldn't get a big rig down to the water but a smaller crane could get there, that's why I like to know what sized crane I'd have to hire.Thanks.| 34333|34288|2017-09-11 19:36:26|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|When using stainless bolts , I like to put  a bit of stainless weld in the steel strap, around the bolt holes, for a  stainless to stainless connection. Eliminates the chance of rust stopping the connection. I like to get  a weld tack  on one corner, for a guaranteed connection , at the first opportunity.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'll have to think about that.  Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about electrolysis and not galvanic corrosion?  Are you saying that if the nominally 12V battery shorts through a high enough resistance that the voltage seen at the LED would be too low to illuminate it?I had planned to get a silver chloride electrode as it seems to be the only way to really be sure you have the right amount of zinc anodes.  More than the cost is that any electrode has a fixed life, so it is also a consumable.  However, compared to the cost of even one gallon of bottom paint (ignoring haulout fees, epoxy coats etc...), it seems like $125 for a probe might be good insurance against damage from electrolysis, galvanic corrosion, or paint peeling from too much zinc.http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html | 34334|34288|2017-09-11 19:44:54|Matt Malone|Re: Efficient Woodstove designs| I know what you mean about grates. I have gone without and made a shovel of 1/4" squirrel mesh to cold sift ash to recover coals from the ash to burn them on the next load.  I have also used a wood grate that is two 3/8" square bars topped with 1/8 by 1" flat, stood on edge with 1/4" spacings, inspired by plasma cutting tables.  I hate loosing the coals before they are pea sized.  It works well, the ash is not worth sifting.  Either way works fine. Try aged, dry, mountain ash some time.  I once had a load that burned for over 100 hours, but 48 is more typical.  Lit it Monday morning and locked the air down.  Friday there was still a few pieces as big as a porkchop still burning from a 20 pound load. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, September 11, 19:27 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Efficient Woodstove designs To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thanks Matt Great info An old steam tug skipper said that when he removed the grates from his firebox, he reduced his wood consumption by 30%. When a coal gets small enough to  drop thru the grate , it falls into the ashes, and cools, unburned.  Wood burns best in its own ashes,whereas a coal fire us put out by its ashes. Grates are for coal , not wood. Lots of good info in that Kuma stove picture. I run my intake air in the back of my stove , and forward inside, thru a preheating pipe. Drastically reduces creosote.  I doubt I would have enough  heat to burn the smoke, when damped down for an all night burn. I have got up to 14 hours out of single load of wood. I prefer red  cedar , as it can be damped down much further than harder woods, without the fire going out. Looks like the air intake in the kuma stove -1 to2 would just go over the wood and straight up the stove pipe. With  a fixed baffle the creosote would  pile up on it ,and be hard to remove when cleaning the stove pipe. A friend recently complained of that  problem. Sliding the baffle  forward  makes it easy to start a fire and get a good draft, before sliding it back. If I wake up to a hot cabin, it means the stove is down to coals,and about to go out.  So I get up and  cram some more wood in, which cools things , and then the stove will burn on till late morning, and I wake to a warm cabin. That air going up the back of the Kuma stove would reduce the power of the draft, it seems. A friend slightly insulated the stove pipe ,and claims it eliminated creosote, keeping the pipe too warm for creosote to condense on. Wood supply is no problem here. The beaches are piled high with it, free fotr the taking. A few minutes with a chainsaw gives you a  week's supply, a pleasant pastime. Efficient woodstoves have stacked designs like this: - connection to flue - heat transfer plenum of a geometry that makes for better heat transfer - catalyst or contact combustion panel to burn the smoke - added air, preferrably pre-heated to combine with the smoke so the smoke can be catalytically converted or burned before entering the plenum - this air can be added in larger quantities provided it does not cool the smoke too much and move the catalyst or combustor out of its operating temperature range.   - insulated firebox, not so much to keep the outside of the stove cool but more to keep the fire hot even at very low combustion rates -- this greatly decreases the rate at which wood MAY be burned, and still have a clean fire.   - grate to support the wood - primary combustion air that can be tightly controlled. Here is a particular diagram of a stove using a baffle with two air feeds, one to burn the wood, one to burn the smoke: https://kumastorage.blob.core.windows.net/content/images/Kuma-Stove-Illustration-300.png If the lower firebox were insulated and the baffle were catalytic or a good contact combustor (see below) it could be good at burning smoke.   Here is a more geometrically complex design with a catalyst, note the explicit preheating of the air to the catalyst:   https://www.firecatcombustors.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/UserGuide/cross-section.jpg Note there is a flame shield to keep the catalyst from being directly overheated by the fire.   It seems that a wood supporting grate made out of schedule 80 pipes would make a great preheater in one structure:   Below is an example of what can be done to make a heat exchanger to get the most heat out of the wood you burn.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGGK8mPvpQ I give these examples just to show the range of possible ways one might build a stove.   If one is welding a boat, welding a little wood burner is nothing, so I encourage building one that suits your boat.  Note, these large stove ideas suitable for buildings can all be scaled down to fit in a boat.  Just remember in scaling down the firebox, the smaller the firebox, the better insulated it should be to keep the combustion temperatures high.    That might seem backwards, but think about it for a while, it is true.   Heat loss from the firebox is by surface area, heat generation in the firebox is by volume.  A 2 foot cube has 24 square feet of surface area, 8 cubic feet of volume -- 3 to 1 ratio.   A 1 foot cube has 6 square feet of surface area, 1 cubic foot of volume -- a 6 to 1 ratio.   The smaller box has a greater surface area is for its unit of volume.   No matter the shape, if one makes it smaller, the volume falls faster than the surface area.  For the cube example, one needs twice the inches of thickness of insulation on the smaller box to keep it as warm as the larger box.      So a smaller stove actually needs thicker-in-inches insulation to keep the same temperature inside. In low-burn-rate, no smoke, high-heat-output conditions, the inside of the firebox is very hot.  If a contact combustor is used it is very hot also, glowing a uniform bright orange for sure over its entire width.  Steel baffles do not make really good contact combusters because they are too conductive of heat and cannot be maintained at a high enough surface temperature to get the most out of the secondary smoke burning reaction.   A steel baffle that is maintained at a temperature like this will degrade quickly.    If a catalyst is used it will be at a lower temperature, typically not much higher than 500F which is a  temperature where no glow is visible to the naked eye, and never much hotter than a dull red at its very hottest or it will degrade.   Naturally one should review the actual technical specifications of the catalyst used.   If one were creating their own little catalytic stove for a boat, a bolt that might be unthreaded from a hole to allow a non-contact temperature gun to see in to the catalyst might be useful in experimentation.  One would use these measurements to set up the air-damper stops so actual operation is a no-brainer.   Once the smoke burner is up to temperature, the combustion air is turned down so that fuel use is minimized.  If a contact combustor is used, then as much secondary air can be added as possible as long as the contact combustor is still glowing a bright orange at low burn rates.  If a catalyst is used then the air is increased even more so that the catalyst is at the lower end of its operating temperature range.   That provides a good volume of air flowing in the plenum and good heating.   Comparing an efficient stove to a old smoker-type farmer's stove, I feed the efficient stove 5 pounds of softwood scraps and the 17x21' garage is toasty warm for 16+ hours.  I feed the old smoker stove 10-15 pounds of hardwood and it keeps a cabin less than half the size warm for less than 8 hours.   There is no comparison.  Since the efficient stove uses a vermiculite contact combustor, no complex design or active monitoring of the catalyst temperature is needed.        In an earlier post I said formica...  it is actually vermiculite board that is one option for a contact combustor.   Now, everything has an autoignition temperature, a temperature at which it will a compound will spontaneously combine with free oxygen and burn without a flame to ignite it.   Smoke is the same.   If smoke runs over an rough, orange-hot surface with surplus oxygen, the oxygen will combine with the smoke and more completely burn it.   Based on my observations, that seems to be how the vermiculite board works.   It appears to be simply a really good insulator so that the fire side of it gets really hot and stays really hot and just acts as a contact surface to trigger the combustion of smoke.   Here are some for-example products: What I think is just a contact combustor: https://www.amazon.ca/Drolet-VERMICULITE-BOARD-2Pack-AC02560/dp/B009YZLI9Y An example of a chemical catalyst: https://www.amazon.com/Honeycomb-Catalytic-Combustor-CC-251-CASTINGS/dp/B01AHFMMQM Note the price difference.   I like the vermiculite because it is cheaper, comes in big slabs, and can be cut to size with a wood blade in a table saw.   If it degrades, just put in a new piece of a slab.   All these materials are brittle, so, I have not just a wood rack in my stove but a complete cage preventing the wood from hitting the vermiculite board.   In a boat, I would want the insulation tight fitting or cemented in, and the catalyst or combustor so secure that it cannot move at all, or it will slowly rattle and crumble where it contacts.   What is the connection between an efficient woodstove and a woodstove that burns its own smoke?  When a stove burns its own smoke, it burns most of the soot and resins and creosote in the smoke that would otherwise build up on all cooler surfaces in the stove and flue.   Cooler surfaces are where the heat is getting transferred out of the flue gases and into the space one wants to heat.   Buildups on the inside of these surfaces would insulate them and make those surfaces really lousy at transferring heat to where one wants it.   So cleaner burning leads to better heat transfer.   With a really hot, clean burn, one can have a really complicated heat transfer plenum without worrying about having to scrape it out all the time.   If you have used an old smoker-type farmer's stove, like the one at my cabin, or a single wall uninsulated stove, from time to time, you have to clean the chimney and scrape the buildup off of the inside surfaces of the stove.   When you do that, surprise surprise, it is better at heating for a while.    Also, a hot-burning efficient stove, when it is cold and unused, it does not smell as much like poorly-burnt, acrid wood smoke and creosote, like the old smokers do.   There have to be health benefits to that if one is around it all the time.      I know Brent has a stove design in his boat.   I have never seen it, and I am not saying it is bad.  If one invests more effort in a better stove design it can give much better results.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Looks like a good opportunity to run conduit behind the foam to make wiring changes easy,anytime.  Water soluable machine oil in the ballast may be a good idea. Thanks Aaron.  All the wiring is stripped out and I'm starting from new.  I'm not grounding the negative to the hull at all and I'm using double pole breakers (both positive AND negative are broken when the breaker is thrown) for the entire electric system so that if a fault to ground (negative or positive) ever develops it will be much easier to isolate and fix.  I've yet to check that the engine is fully isolated, my goal is to try to do that.  Otherwise, I will put switches in the ground and positive to the engine and it will only be connected to the batteries while running.  Finally, to regularly check for isolation I'm going to rig a DPDT on-off-on switch with some leds.  One throw grounds the positive battery terminal to the hull through a red led.  If you see a red glow, the positive terminal has found a way to connect to the hull.  On the other throw of the switch you ground the negative to the hull through a yellow led (too bad there is no black LED :-)   and if you see yellow you know your negative leads are no longer isolated.  You need some resistors to keep the LED from burning out, but the whole thing is pretty simple.  VDO and another company also make expensive versions of these gauges.  Although the boat was manufactured in 1989 and had the negative of the battery grounded to DC, it never suffered any problems from electrolytic corrosion.  It did not have an AC system wired at all and I suspect AC is where most of the problems come from.  There were only two places where there was significant damage to the hull plate.  Those were under the head where splashed urine had sat on the raw plate, and in the keel where water had penetrated the steel/concrete ballast and set up a galvanic cell with the aluminum.  Elsewhere on the boat, when I stripped out the old insulation and the outer hull paint I was greeted with shiny metal. | 34335|34288|2017-09-11 23:24:48|Darren Bos|Re: Insulation| Thanks Paul, useful discussion.  The way I see it is that the LED indicator performs a separate function from the multimeter/silver chloride cell and is really only useful on a boat that has a fully isolated DC electrical system.  The indicator lets you know if you get negative to ground (hull) or positive to ground (hull) and lets you check it easy with the flip of the switch every day.  Very useful if a wire loses its insulation, or that new antenna you installed has its case grounded.  With double pole breakers, if an LED lights up on the tester, you then turn breakers off one by one till the light goes off and you have found your problem.  At this point you haven't even opened a tool box. Separately, you use a Silver Chloride cell to check that you have the right amount of zinc and that it is working properly.  The silver chloride cell is also useful if you go into a marina to make sure you haven't joined into some electrical hooliganism. You're right that you can just consider galvanic corrosion and electrolysis in terms of anodes and cathodes and then they look much the same.  I suppose the main benefit of using two different terms is that electrolysis has the potential to do damage at a much greater rate. It is interesting that you make do with fairly little in terms of zinc anodes.  My boat had twelve attached and calcs from several books suggest that I could use 25lbs of anodes.  This never made much sense to me, as with a good barrier coat, there should be very little hull area left to act as a cathode.  Thanks for the data point.  I had been debating starting with less zinc and leaving some threaded aluminum standoffs to add more if necessary, this seems like a good idea. On 17-09-11 02:45 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   People can debate it but I have always thought of galvanic corrosion and electrolysis as the same thing.  It can be caused by either two disimilar metals or by wiring but both involve electron flow with the metals coming in contact with each other either direct or via an electrolyte.  It almost always involves salt water in boats, even with dissimilar metals high in the rigging.    Having faulty wiring just makes it worse (or even reverse) to anything exposed and can cause a huge amount of damage in a very, very short time.  I originally had problems in my boat by plugging in to a dock without using an isolation transformer.  I think my boat wiring was good and I was probably zinced OK but by not using any isolation, I was now in a circuit to all the other boats and bad dock wiring and ended up with small blisters on my boat.  My bad.  It was a painful and expensive lesson by a rookie too cheap and ignorant to do it right :). Crevice corrosion is slightly different and a special case where you can get corrosion in cracks of the same metal. Occasionally you might see it in SS brackets or rigging.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crevice_corrosion The LEDs would show a major electrical short or fault but so will a voltmeter and ammeter on the panel which I think every boat should have.   With electrolysis you need to see a tiny voltage which an LED or a 12 volt panel meter will never pick up.  So you use a millivolt scale multimeter direct on the fittings which can read fractions of volts and reference it to a standard like a silver chloride cell.  I thought the silver chloride cells were much more than $125.  I seem to remember someone paying over $400 for one but that was a few years ago.  You are right, it is only the cost of one can of paint.   You might find them cheaper direct out of China.   If I was going to own an alloy boat for the next 10 or 20 years, I would probably buy one.   To be honest, I have only heard of few cruisers who owned one.  One had replaced some bad plates on his boat so he was particularly vigilant. If you paint your boat well with a good and thick barrier coat, electrolysis shouldn't be that much of a problem, even with an alloy boat.  If I owned an alloy boat, I would use a high quality two pack paint that has the glass flake in it.   Either Interprotect or Ameron 400 with the flake additive.  This was discussed here not too long ago but you can google it and find lots of info.    I would zinc it like a steel boat and watch it really closely the first few months or year to see how long the zincs last and see if there is any corrosion on your prop.  If the zincs are only lasting 6 months, add more but don't over zinc it.  It is best to weld them but you could have some studs already in place to bolt them on in a pinch.  I use bolts for my zincs on my steel boat and then just hit the nut and tab of the zinc with a small tack weld once they are bolted tight for a good electrical bond.  I can file or break the tacks later if I want to replace them and can't use my welder. FWIW, I only use one large zinc on my boat located near the prop with a smaller zinc on the rudder and the trim tab.  I started with two big zincs  but found one was OK.  The big zinc is the rectangular style which has the tabs sticking out.   It will last a couple of years.  I have plastic (Marelon) thru hulls which probably one of the reasons why the zinc lasts so long. Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I'll have to think about that.  Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, you are talking about electrolysis and not galvanic corrosion?  Are you saying that if the nominally 12V battery shorts through a high enough resistance that the voltage seen at the LED would be too low to illuminate it? I had planned to get a silver chloride electrode as it seems to be the only way to really be sure you have the right amount of zinc anodes.  More than the cost is that any electrode has a fixed life, so it is also a consumable.  However, compared to the cost of even one gallon of bottom paint (ignoring haulout fees, epoxy coats etc...), it seems like $125 for a probe might be good insurance against damage from electrolysis, galvanic corrosion, or paint peeling from too much zinc. http://www.boatzincs.com/corrosion-reference-electrode-specs.html | 34336|34288|2017-09-12 00:28:08|opuspaul|Re: Insulation|I never understood why anyone would need so many zincs.  Some of the recommendations in the books seem crazy, possibly a holdover from the past.   I think people would use a lot of zincs because the paints weren't as good and they often sailed around with bare patches and steel exposed.  You are absolutely right, a good paint job will insulate the hull and should always be your first line of defense for corrosion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It is interesting that you make do with fairly little in terms of zinc anodes.  My boat had twelve attached and calcs from several books suggest that I could use 25lbs of anodes.  This never made much sense to me, as with a good barrier coat, there should be very little hull area left to act as a cathode.  Thanks for the data point.  I had been debating starting with less zinc and leaving some threaded aluminum standoffs to add more if necessary, this seems like a good idea. | 34337|34325|2017-09-12 15:16:10|brentswain38|Re: Main Hatch latch|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :First, you weld a short piece of 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe ( roughly 3 inches ) thru  piece of 1/8th inch stainless plate. This takes the main shaft thru the door, and is bolted to the hole in your door, near the edge of the hatch.Then you take about 3 1/2 inches of 3/4 inch solid stainless shaft and weld a 5 inch piece of 3/4 to it at an angle of about ten degrees. Make this a very solid,  full penetration weld , as it takes the dogging down  load, dogging onto the hatch opening coaming  . This goes thru the pipe in the door, and then you weld the outside handle to it , at 90 degrees to the inside handle. That is so that, if the door slams the inside dog is at 45 degrees to  the  door, and it will stop it from slamming on your fingers. I put a grab rail  just inside, to stop you from using the hatch coaming as a handle, and getting your fingers pinched . However with a 25 degree slope to the back of the cabin ,that has never happened to me .I would really appreciate seeing photos of the Main Hatch latch.  I have not been able to figure it out from the photo in Brent's book.  I am sure it will turn out to be very simple.Thanks in advance,Stephen| 34338|34288|2017-09-12 15:23:20|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This spring I found a bit of rust forming on my skeg, etc.I simply added zincs until the rust  stopped forming. Just enough,  no more. I have a lot of bare steel, and welded in stainless sch 40 pipe  thru hulls, which have given me zero problems in over 40 years.Zero sign of any pitting on my hull, in 33 years.Just what looks like clean, shot blasted steel. I never understood why anyone would need so many zincs.  Some of the recommendations in the books seem crazy, possibly a holdover from the past.   I think people would use a lot of zincs because the paints weren't as good and they often sailed around with bare patches and steel exposed.  You are absolutely right, a good paint job will insulate the hull and should always be your first line of defense for corrosion.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It is interesting that you make do with fairly little in terms of zinc anodes.  My boat had twelve attached and calcs from several books suggest that I could use 25lbs of anodes.  This never made much sense to me, as with a good barrier coat, there should be very little hull area left to act as a cathode.  Thanks for the data point.  I had been debating starting with less zinc and leaving some threaded aluminum standoffs to add more if necessary, this seems like a good idea. | 34339|34288|2017-09-13 14:54:46|jaybeecherbay|Re: Insulation|On a 36' bilge keel what do you reccomend? One Z3 on each keel, and one on the rudder?| 34340|34288|2017-09-15 17:00:43|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes that has worked well for me over 33 years. For some unknown reason, I had to add an extra Z3 this past summer.On a 36' bilge keel what do you reccomend? One Z3 on each keel, and one on the rudder?| 34341|34325|2017-09-19 22:48:59|magicod|Re: Main Hatch latch|Thanks| 34342|34325|2017-09-21 16:12:06|brentswain38|Re: Main Hatch latch|Did that answer your questions?| 34343|34343|2017-09-21 17:34:39|opuspaul|Anchor performance|Following is a very interesting video from a boat which tests a wide variety of anchors, both new and old in real world conditions.  Good stuff.FWIW, I used an old plow for many years but now use an early version Excel I managed to find used.   There is absolutely no comparison between the two.   I should have switched to the newer generation anchor a long time ago.   The plow would often fail to penetrate on harder ground and just dig a nice furrow while laying on its side.   The Excel digs in hard and digs in fast.   It digs in deep and it's larger fluke area also holds better in very soft mud.  I still use a light 22 pound danforth for a stern anchor.  It fits nicely on the rail and I have a warp on a hose reel so it can be quickly dumped in the water at a moments notice.   The Danforths are cheap to buy used or  can be built on your own.  I still think they are a great anchor for their weight but as the video shows, they will trip up when the wind changes and they don't fit well on a bow roller.  I would often pair the Danforth to the plow (or Excel) if a particularly bad storm is coming.  I recommend the method shown by Peter Smith who has an awesome site about anchors:http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.phphttp://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/I recommend doing Brent's mods from his book.  Most anchors will work better if they are sharpened a bit with an angle grinder and his other mods help prevent fouling on a Danforth.  You will have to repaint or get it re-galvanized.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59f-OjWoq0| 34344|34288|2017-09-26 14:39:40|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|I remember reading an article in Sail Magazine by Gerr, which stated that all  steel hulls lose the same thickness of steel per year,  regardless of how well it is coated. That would mean all steel hulks shed their entire paint job several  times a year.  Its incredible how many people buy such total crap from the plastic boat sales industry, unquestioningly . Naturally they didn't publish my letter questioning such disinformation. After all, they ARE  in the business of selling plastic .| 34345|34288|2017-09-26 14:49:26|Matt Malone|Re: Insulation| I would be to point out the number of steel ships, from navies, to commercial fleets to offshore oil platforms that are beyond the age at which they should have sunk by such a formula.    It is obvious steel can be protected, it is simply a question of money or time and effort.  At the same time, there is no doubt that the same time and effort, or money, will protect a solid plastic boat for longer.   If the plastic is well designed structurally, or simply overbuilt like the very first boats were, then it is worth it.   If it is cheap thin, cored crap with no robustness, that will suffer from premature failure anyway, then one will not get as much value out of investing money in surface coatings. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 2:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     I remember reading an article in Sail Magazine by Gerr, which stated that all  steel hulls lose the same thickness of steel per year,  regardless of how well it is coated. That would mean all steel hulks shed their entire paint job several  times a year.  Its incredible how many people buy such total crap from the plastic boat sales industry, unquestioningly . Naturally they didn't publish my letter questioning such disinformation. After all, they ARE  in the business of selling plastic . | 34346|34288|2017-09-26 15:01:20|mountain man|Re: Insulation| I just finish to cut in pieces a 41ft balsa core racing yacht from the '70s, the balsa was rotten many places all around and else where it was wet, Nice boat but cost $$$ too much to fix Martin On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:49 PM, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I would be to point out the number of steel ships, from navies, to commercial fleets to offshore oil platforms that are beyond the age at which they should have sunk by such a formula.    It is obvious steel can be protected, it is simply a question of money or time and effort.  At the same time, there is no doubt that the same time and effort, or money, will protect a solid plastic boat for longer.   If the plastic is well designed structurally, or simply overbuilt like the very first boats were, then it is worth it.   If it is cheap thin, cored crap with no robustness, that will suffer from premature failure anyway, then one will not get as much value out of investing money in surface coatings. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 2:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     I remember reading an article in Sail Magazine by Gerr, which stated that all  steel hulls lose the same thickness of steel per year,  regardless of how well it is coated. That would mean all steel hulks shed their entire paint job several  times a year.  Its incredible how many people buy such total crap from the plastic boat sales industry, unquestioningly . Naturally they didn't publish my letter questioning such disinformation. After all, they ARE  in the business of selling plastic . | 34347|34288|2017-09-27 15:18:18|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|For small boats under 40 feet, the area to be protected is tiny, and thus easy to maintain. A good zinc primer above the waterline will hold the fort, if you chip the epoxy,  until you get around to an epoxy buildup.Stainless trim on all outside corners can reduce maintenance by up to 80%Of course, all comparisons in advantages between plastic and steel vanish, if you hit a container in the middle of the night in mid ocean, almost certain sinking for plastic, but  a minor inconvenience for steel. I prefer not to have to worry about that ,so steel is my only remaining  choice. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1594548976 #ygrps-yiv-1594548976ygrps-yiv-82195397 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I would be to point out the number of steel ships, from navies, to commercial fleets to offshore oil platforms that are beyond the age at which they should have sunk by such a formula.    It is obvious steel can be protected, it is simply a question of money or time and effort.  At the same time, there is no doubt that the same time and effort, or money, will protect a solid plastic boat for longer.   If the plastic is well designed structurally, or simply overbuilt like the very first boats were, then it is worth it.   If it is cheap thin, cored crap with no robustness, that will suffer from premature failure anyway, then one will not get as much value out of investing money in surface coatings. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 2:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation  I remember reading an article in Sail Magazine by Gerr, which stated that all  steel hulls lose the same thickness of steel per year,  regardless of how well it is coated. That would mean all steel hulks shed their entire paint job several  times a year.  Its incredible how many people buy such total crap from the plastic boat sales industry, unquestioningly . Naturally they didn't publish my letter questioning such disinformation. After all, they ARE  in the business of selling plastic .| 34348|34288|2017-09-27 17:04:32|badpirate36|Re: Insulation|DarrenI would highly recommend Sangs spray foam in Richmond BC. It cost around $2500 to foam my 36' BS. He did a great job, although cutting back the foam was the worst job of the whole build, it took me months to get it all done and painted. The foam migrated from the boat to the truck, to the house, to the wife lol. However, after four years that's all been forgotten, except for the little bits of foam we still find from time to time.Tom| 34349|34349|2017-09-27 18:47:04|badpirate36|Anchorages/mooring fields|It's been years since I went sailing, but after finally getting my 36'BS finished (enough to go sailing). We headed out for the summer! After a month of sailing around the sunshine coast, we headed for the gulf islands and sailed into Silva Bay. Although Silva Bay was always a crowded anchorage, now it was jammed full of private mooring buoys. Seems the local government was able to evict the "derelict" live-aboards, and replace them with private mooring buoys for the local's "derelict" boats. Are they all legal mooring buoys? They certainly appeared to be, with names and permit numbers painted on the sides. Does the ministry just approve all requests? I can not understand how filling up a good anchorage with private mooring buoys can possibly be in the public interest. Tom    | 34350|34288|2017-09-27 19:46:44|badpirate36|Re: Insulation|Darren,it was actually $3000 for the spray foam on my boat. | 34351|34288|2017-09-28 07:49:14|garyhlucas|Re: Insulation| Might be worth looking into an anti-static ionizer gun.  Get rid of the static and the bits fall to the floor instead of sticking to everything.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 5:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation     Darren I would highly recommend Sangs spray foam in Richmond BC. It cost around $2500 to foam my 36' BS. He did a great job, although cutting back the foam was the worst job of the whole build, it took me months to get it all done and painted. The foam migrated from the boat to the truck, to the house, to the wife lol. However, after four years that's all been forgotten, except for the little bits of foam we still find from time to time. Tom| 34352|34349|2017-09-28 07:50:01|garyhlucas|Re: Anchorages/mooring fields| What makes you think public interest was a consideration?   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 6:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Anchorages/mooring fields     It's been years since I went sailing, but after finally getting my 36'BS finished (enough to go sailing). We headed out for the summer! After a month of sailing around the sunshine coast, we headed for the gulf islands and sailed into Silva Bay. Although Silva Bay was always a crowded anchorage, now it was jammed full of private mooring buoys. Seems the local government was able to evict the "derelict" live-aboards, and replace them with private mooring buoys for the local's "derelict" boats. Are they all legal mooring buoys? They certainly appeared to be, with names and permit numbers painted on the sides. Does the ministry just approve all requests? I can not understand how filling up a good anchorage with private mooring buoys can possibly be in the public interest. Tom    < /p>| 34353|34349|2017-09-30 16:57:40|brentswain38|Re: Anchorages/mooring fields|If we ask big brother to intervene , how long will it be before you dare not leave a dingy on a beach, or your boat unattended at anchor, for fear the the govt will assume it to be  abandoned and steal it. One should never underestimate the stupidity of bureaucrats.Moorings are the only option for those who can't afford the exorbitant cost of dockage, or for those who don't live near a marina. For many, it is the only alternative to homelessness. No one should be forced into homelessness for the convenience of weekend visitors.  Reminds me of the guy in Deep Cove, who started a campaign  to ban mooring there.He succeeded. When they came to take his moored boat away, he said "I meant those other guys , not me."If it aint broke, don't fix it.No, fly by night weekenders don't over rule locals .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It's been years since I went sailing, but after finally getting my 36'BS finished (enough to go sailing). We headed out for the summer! After a month of sailing around the sunshine coast, we headed for the gulf islands and sailed into Silva Bay. Although Silva Bay was always a crowded anchorage, now it was jammed full of private mooring buoys. Seems the local government was able to evict the "derelict" live-aboards, and replace them with private mooring buoys for the local's "derelict" boats. Are they all legal mooring buoys? They certainly appeared to be, with names and permit numbers painted on the sides. Does the ministry just approve all requests? I can not understand how filling up a good anchorage with private mooring buoys can possibly be in the public interest. Tom    | 34354|34349|2017-09-30 17:44:37|prairiemaidca|Re: Anchorages/mooring fields|So what happens to those that wish to cruise and travel around the world in the boat they made to save money and go places.  No place to drop the hook and only expensive marinas left to spend the night.  Kind of a catch 22.   The sad part is that from what I've seen on the B.C. west coast is the majority of the boats on bouys sit there and never move just like the ones in the marinas.    Martin...| 34355|34355|2017-10-02 09:26:44|inter4905|Bilge keels in winter ice|Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin| 34356|34355|2017-10-02 14:49:13|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|When Winston was building his boat for the NW passage, he asked me about twin keels .I told him it was not a good idea for that kind of voyage, as wind on ice would force the keels  together,and nothing could possibly  be built strong enough  to resist it. In lower latitudes and thinner ice, one could  shelter during  breakup, when the ice was moving. Winston chose river mouths, the current of which kept the moving ice away.I don't think being ice bound in a sheltered place would be any problem for a twin keeler. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin| 34357|34349|2017-10-02 14:58:39|brentswain38|Re: Anchorages/mooring fields|Reminds me of a cruiser- property owner , who said property owners should not have to put up with anyone anchoring in front of their property. I said "That includes you anchoring in front of anyone else's property. If we privatize everything, then you become a prisoner on your own private property, unable to go  anywhere,  without trespassing on someone else's "Private property." That is why we put a limit on what is private and what is public. Private property in BC stops at the high tide line, period!"If you buy a house in suburbia ,does that entitle you to put up a road block at both ends of the street, so no one will pass in front of your "Private property?No,  Not on land ,or sea, thankfully !---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So what happens to those that wish to cruise and travel around the world in the boat they made to save money and go places.  No place to drop the hook and only expensive marinas left to spend the night.  Kind of a catch 22.   The sad part is that from what I've seen on the B.C. west coast is the majority of the boats on bouys sit there and never move just like the ones in the marinas.    Martin...| 34358|34355|2017-10-02 15:22:24|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 2:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     When Winston was building his boat for the NW passage, he asked me about twin keels . I told him it was not a good idea for that kind of voyage, as wind on ice would force the keels  together, and nothing could possibly  be built strong enough  to resist it. In lower latitudes and thinner ice, one could  shelter during  breakup, when the ice was moving. Winston chose river mouths, the current of which kept the moving ice away. I don't think being ice bound in a sheltered place would be any problem for a twin keeler. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin | 34359|34355|2017-10-04 17:18:51|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1710897794 #ygrps-yiv-1710897794ygrps-yiv-1043809782 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 2:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice  When Winston was building his boat for the NW passage, he asked me about twin keels . I told him it was not a good idea for that kind of voyage, as wind on ice would force the keels  together, and nothing could possibly  be built strong enough  to resist it. In lower latitudes and thinner ice, one could  shelter during  breakup, when the ice was moving. Winston chose river mouths, the current of which kept the moving ice away. I don't think being ice bound in a sheltered place would be any problem for a twin keeler. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin| 34360|34355|2017-10-04 20:30:59|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 2:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     When Winston was building his boat for the NW passage, he asked me about twin keels . I told him it was not a good idea for that kind of voyage, as wind on ice would force the keels  together, and nothing could possibly  be built strong enough  to resist it. In lower latitudes and thinner ice, one could  shelter during  breakup, when the ice was moving. Winston chose river mouths, the current of which kept the moving ice away. I don't think being ice bound in a sheltered place would be any problem for a twin keeler. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin | 34361|34355|2017-10-04 22:01:11|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| I would put two wheels on either side of each keel, nearer the front and another pair on the skeg.  Tying a tow rope higher on the bow will tip it forward a little to slew the back wheels to turn.  I would not design anything to drag. Matt From: mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 20:31 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 2:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     When Winston was building his boat for the NW passage, he asked me about twin keels . I told him it was not a good idea for that kind of voyage, as wind on ice would force the keels  together, and nothing could possibly  be built strong enough  to resist it. In lower latitudes and thinner ice, one could  shelter during  breakup, when the ice was moving. Winston chose river mouths, the current of which kept the moving ice away. I don't think being ice bound in a sheltered place would be any problem for a twin keeler. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin | 34362|34355|2017-10-05 20:09:18|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Like on a Cessna! On Oct 4, 2017, at 10:01 PM, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I would put two wheels on either side of each keel, nearer the front and another pair on the skeg.  Tying a tow rope higher on the bow will tip it forward a little to slew the back wheels to turn.  I would not design anything to drag. Matt From: mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 20:31 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 2:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     When Winston was building his boat for the NW passage, he asked me about twin keels . I told him it was not a good idea for that kind of voyage, as wind on ice would force the keels  together, and nothing could possibly  be built strong enough  to resist it. In lower latitudes and thinner ice, one could  shelter during  breakup, when the ice was moving. Winston chose river mouths, the current of which kept the moving ice away. I don't think being ice bound in a sheltered place would be any problem for a twin keeler. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hi Brent, What do you think could happen to the bilge keels of a steel sailboat that would spend winter stuck in the ice (In Quebec, Ontario, New-Brunswick) Martin | 34363|34355|2017-10-06 18:18:30|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer?Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   | 34364|34355|2017-10-06 19:50:03|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Ok itmakes sense, By the way, what kind of wheels do you suggest? Martin On Oct 6, 2017, at 6:18 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   | 34365|34355|2017-10-06 20:32:18|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   | 34366|34355|2017-10-06 21:43:16|opuspaul|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|If you are only going a short distance use a piece of wood as a skid plate for the skeg.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTsXPndfGWE| 34367|34355|2017-10-07 17:05:34|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1683360308 #ygrps-yiv-1683360308ygrps-yiv-992665463 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice  Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent,Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer?Martin | 34368|34355|2017-10-07 17:08:13|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|Depends how far you are moving her. Steel welded up  wheels, with a bit of rubber over them, will work for short distances on a smooth  concrete surface.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ok itmakes sense,By the way, what kind of wheels do you suggest?Martin On Oct 6, 2017, at 6:18 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent,Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer?MartinOn Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   | 34369|34355|2017-10-07 17:12:43|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Ok On Oct 7, 2017, at 5:08 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Depends how far you are moving her. Steel welded up  wheels, with a bit of rubber over them, will work for short distances on a smooth  concrete surface. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Ok itmakes sense, By the way, what kind of wheels do you suggest? Martin On Oct 6, 2017, at 6:18 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin On Oct 4, 2017, at 5:19 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I welded in a couple of lengths of 2 inch sch 40 pipes,  in line with  each other , flush with the outsides of the keels, in my twin keels, before ballasting. That would let me put a single shaft thru them, or a couple of stub shafts with wheels on them,  if I wanted to move her on land. They are slightly ahead of  the LCB. The first twin keeler I built put them to good use. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I agree with Brent on wind-blown ice and bilge keels.   The keels are long compared to their thickness, giving a leverage advantage to wind blown ice coming from a-beam.   Wind blown ice has piled up infamously high in some places -- check with locals -- but even if a harbour is considered safe, there is the once-in-100-years event.   I doubt a steel boat would be the first to go down.   I have seen some pretty flimsy wooden boats overwinter in Toronto's harbours, which are relatively good, the weather is relatively mild for mid-continent, and its harbours do not usually suffer from wind-blown ice though I have seen some ice come over the breakwater in places.  One wooden motor boat burned and sunk for other reasons but when it was hauled out and I saw how thin the hull was, I wondered where they had purchased plywood that thin, not even 3/8" above the waterline, and only a single layer.   I could punch the head of a hammer through it easily, and I would not doubt some people might be able to put their fist through it.   One pointy chunk of ice pushed by a few thousand tons of ice and wind would cut it like scissors.   If one is making a bilge-keeler, I would be inclined to use the advantage of the bilge keeler to solve the problem the bilge-keeler way.  It would not be hard to weld a pipe to use to hold simple trunnion wheels to roll the entire boat up a launch ramp and out of the water.   Then ice would not be a factor.     There is no lake in Ontario or Quebec that I am aware of where one can dependably navigate a boat safely any distance in winter anyway -- any ice-free areas are limited and unreliable.    Living aboard seems the only reason to stay in.   I suspect by-laws prevent living aboard on the hard in most places, so that is the motivation for the question.   Matt   | 34370|34355|2017-10-07 17:24:23|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34371|34355|2017-10-09 18:52:38|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|I don't see the point.My half inch keel  bottom plates show no sign of grinding away after 33 years. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34372|34372|2017-10-09 19:12:53|mncoz7z265sbugfgwkph5wha5bz7ls5xbjipazme|New 50 flush deck|Hi Brent, I'm a long time fan of your great work. I'm going to shape up a new boat to resemble a Dutch motorsailer that I had years ago. I bought that round hull 1/8 inch steel hull rusted out and sitting in a field. I bought a Lincoln wire feed and 3/16 plate and had a great boat. Now I had my ranching time in the mountains with horses and came back to the SF bay area. I have drawn up the side view of the flush deck motorsailer that carries a wide beam. I would like to talk with you on the phone and make a deal to have you look at and correct my plans. Or have you make working plans for my design. I will make a tin model=1 inch equals a foot to test the metal shape. The boat I had was kinda famous having sailed the north Atlantic in offshore races. Being 3 mm steel, she was light and a centerboard boat. 43 feet long, 12.5 wide. Poseidia. I am stretching the design to almost 50 with an extreme beam and no centerboard. A coastal motorsailer with voyaging capabilities. Finding a place to weld it up is difficult to begin with. I make props and models for Hollywood and collectors and have a great bunch of studio licensed products, but do you know that I have seen some criticism from people who never made a thing in their lives. You know that you are doing great when you have criticism. I look at it as more PR for me. That's right, type my name. I'm more famous. Just embrace the opportunity to see controversial stuff. I have my own forum for Sci-fi stuff. Because I quit posting on the sites that banned the greatest names ever known in Sci-fi model making. I love a steel boat. We can move to Washington. We have a 40 foot sailboat. And we can make a living anywhere. Give me a call when you get a chance. Thanks, and good work. Ron Shanko Rshanko@... 415-870-5656 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34373|34372|2017-10-09 19:17:02|brentswain38|Re: New 50 flush deck|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem Ron .I'll be happy to give any help I can; outside of working again.BrentHi Brent, I'm a long time fan of your great work. I'm going to shape up a new boat to resemble a Dutch motorsailer that I had years ago. I bought that round hull 1/8 inch steel hull rusted out and sitting in a field. I bought a Lincoln wire feed and 3/16 plate and had a great boat. Now I had my ranching time in the mountains with horses and came back to the SF bay area. I have drawn up the side view of the flush deck motorsailer that carries a wide beam. I would like to talk with you on the phone and make a deal to have you look at and correct my plans. Or have you make working plans for my design. I will make a tin model=1 inch equals a foot to test the metal shape. The boat I had was kinda famous having sailed the north Atlantic in offshore races. Being 3 mm steel, she was light and a centerboard boat. 43 feet long, 12.5 wide. Poseidia. I am stretching the design to almost 50 with an extreme beam and no centerboard. A coastal motorsailer with voyaging capabilities. Finding a place to weld it up is difficult to begin with. I make props and models for Hollywood and collectors and have a great bunch of studio licensed products, but do you know that I have seen some criticism from people who never made a thing in their lives. You know that you are doing great when you have criticism. I look at it as more PR for me. That's right, type my name. I'm more famous. Just embrace the opportunity to see controversial stuff. I have my own forum for Sci-fi stuff. Because I quit posting on the sites that banned the greatest names ever known in Sci-fi model making. I love a steel boat. We can move to Washington. We have a 40 foot sailboat. And we can make a living anywhere. Give me a call when you get a chance. Thanks, and good work. Ron Shanko Rshanko@... 415-870-5656 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34375|34355|2017-10-12 15:03:31|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34376|32742|2017-10-12 15:15:45|brentswain38|Gord's boat|I just had a look at Gord's boat, in the back yard of her new owner, an ex coast guard,  professional seaman.I can see why so many walked away from her . Done to perfection ,but horrendously complex , with much of  the mass of wiring and plumbing foamed over, and no idea of which led where. The front of the engine is  an extremely complex  mass of compressors, alternators, pumps,hoses, valves, electrical gizmos  etc etc. He had a freezer  in the middle of the main cabin, big enough  to freeze a whole moose.Many would  take one look, and say "No way." I told the new owner  to just ignore all that, and put whatever he needs over the foam, and thus simple and  accessible. He got one hell of a deal, for little money. It came with  a  pile of gear , including  mast and rig, and a lot of goodies, being just down the road from Shelter Island Marine, where they dismantle old boats.I could have saved Gord a lot of time, money and trouble, if he had kept more in touch when making decisions| 34377|34355|2017-10-13 07:57:49|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Brent, How long are your bilge keels? Martin On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34378|34355|2017-10-13 10:20:01|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Brent, The reason I ask about the lenght of the keels is to know how long would be too long for my 37 ft steel  sailboat,  i want to make them a little bigger to put steel ballast inside instead of lead Thanks, Martin On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34379|34355|2017-10-13 14:00:24|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Martin, I posted this some time ago, about the advantage of lead: Everything one puts in water has a buoyancy component that is equal to the density of water.   I like to work in grams per cubic centimeter, because in these units, the density of water is 1.   Concrete has a density of 2.4 in air, but in water, it has a ballast factor of (2.4 - 1) = 1.4   Cast Iron: 7.2 , (7.2 - 1) = 6.2 Steel: 8 , ( 8 - 1) = 7 Lead: 11.34 , (11.34 -1) = 10.34 Tungsten 19.3 , (19.3 - 1) = 18.3 Now if one were making all of the ballast in a bulb or delta wing keel: http://www.centralfoundry.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/keel4.jpg http://www.beneteau235.com/images/wing_keel_800.jpg The differences in ballast factor would mainly determine the volume of material to buy.   Since volume is proportional to dimensions cubed, if the shape stays the same, no one dimension has to increase very much.   The most important one dimension is thickness because that contributes to draft.   If one used cast iron, the bulb or wing would have a relative thickness of 0.54, tungsten 0.38 or 70%.    We are only talking about a foot or less of total thickness for a fin, maybe 2 feet for a bulb.  Remember that the center of mass of the bulb is what is important so half the thickness.   For a sailboat design keeping a constant distance below water for the center of mass of the bulb, the difference in depth of the bottom of the bulb will translate to only a couple inches difference on total draft.   Not so with a fin keel filled with ballast material, where one sets the draft of the boat and the desired center of mass of the boat for constant desired stability properties, regardless of choice of material.   One has two choices.   Fatter or fuller.   One can make the fin keel larger in cross-sectional area, that is longer and thicker, or just thicker, in inverse proportion to the ballast factor.  This will make the fill depth of all materials the same.   Lets assume a beautiful stream-lined tungsten fin with dimensions of 1 in either plan.    Now, if we were increasing the cross-sectional area of the fin to accomodate materials with lower ballast ratios, by what fraction would we have to have the two linear dimensions increase (holding the cross-sectional shape constant).   Secondly, if we just decided, we like the fore-aft length of the keel fin, but we wanted to make it only thicker, by factor would it have to be thicker for poorer ballast materials?    Material ,          x-area     ,   thickness-only tungsten ,            1           ,           1 lead        ,            1.33      ,          1.77 steel        ,            1.62     ,           2.61 iron         ,             1.72     ,          2.95 concrete ,             3.63    ,          13.14 Those are big numbers but, going from poured lead to poured steel (poured = 100% occupancy of the keel shape) the linear dimensions of thickness and fore-aft length would only have to increase 21% (1.62/1.33 - 1) and it would just be a slightly stubbier-looking beautiful streamlined cross-section, that would be conspicuously bigger on profile view of the boat.    Yes, going from lead to steel on a fin that one makes fatter to compensate is not a small change.   The boat would have to look proportionally substantially different to keep the same draft and stability.   A 5-foot fore-aft-long lead keel would have to be a 6-foot-fore-aft-long poured steel keel.   And that is before considering the added complications of pouring steel.     One can have a fixed dimensions of keel and then just vary the fill of the keel depending on the different materials.   One quickly finds this is math that punishes poorer ballast materials.  I recommend a spread sheet to expose the true hell you are entering by not selecting lead.   If one is good at imagining shrinking 3 dimensional shapes, one can appreciate the effect.  Imagine the shape of the boat in profile, looking at it beam-on, and then imagine shrinking the profile shape fore-and-aft along horizontal lines in linear proportion to:  (depth below desired boat center of mass for stability purposes) divided by (depth of the bottom of the keel below the desired boat center of mass for stability purposes).   and take everything above the desired boat center of mass and just erase it.   One erases everything in the boat profile above the desired boat center of mass because you do not want to put any ballast above the boat center of mass. This shrink transformation effectively absorbs some of the stability math into a shape.  If one can see the new shape, one is seeing the effect of the math without knowing the math.    The shape is hard to describe.  It might look like a squat double-fluke wedge stood on its fat end, like a cross between some exaggerated wood splitting device, and a hose barb.   Here are some pictures that might help see the new shape: Flip this one the other way up, make it a lot more squat, and remove the mounting part below the flange: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/03/8f/7f/038f7ff353d37885ad94624e91a75ae1--splitting-wood-wood-tools.jpg Imagine this but a lot shorter for its base size: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55cdf4dde4b0f1c89687ce44/574f961101dbae0ecdc23968/574f961d40261d226b61b4e9/1464833570147/Smith_Barb_08.jpg?format=500w Now imagine this shape as a fancy, squat, blown-glass tumbler drinking glass that one can fill to various depths with liquid.    If you can see this shape, then it is easy to see the compounding problem with lower density ballast materials.  If we pour in tungsten, we may only need a "double shot" in the bottom of the bottom portion of the glass to meet stability needs -- corresponding to half-filling the keels.   If we pour in lead, we need more, but it is starting to fill up further as the top surface of the lead has to go further up the taper of the shrinking keel part of the glass.   If we now choose steel, we have to add even more on top of this level, but it is going further up the taper, and we are filling the neck at the top of the keel.   Will we have to over-flow the lower keel part of the glass and have the steel spill over into the flare of the glass, the base of the second wedge that corresponds to the shrunken bilge?   Certainly if we choose concrete, we are filling at least some of the bilge part of the glass to get enough of it in.   In fact, because the glass tapers again, this time to nothing as we approach the desired center of mass of the boat, it is possible that we may not be able to get enough concrete into it before the glass overflows.   What does overflowing mean?  The math is exploding and telling us, we can never achieve the desired stability properties with that ballast material, in that boat.    This could easily happen for concrete, if we started with a design that was well-suited to tungsten and high stability.   In any case, the sole of the cabin may be concrete.   Now reverse the shrinking of the glass back to being boat profile, but keeping the level of fill of the ballast constant.    You see how much one is punished by choosing steel or concrete -- you have to use a whole heck of a lot more.   Disproportionately more, meaning the boat has to be heavier, there is no choice.  This means it has to ride lower in the water, increasing draft.       If one were inclined to calculate the problem using numbers, and not just appreciate the problem, I would recommend a spreadsheet.  One has to make some assumptions to do any comparison calculations.   Assume a ballast ratio.  Assume a draft.   Assume a depth of fill of the keels if lead were poured in (a 100% occupancy factor).  Set up the equations so that the overall center of mass of the boat is constant.  This means one has to calculate the center of mass of the ballast material, but this is dependent on how tall it is.   Write out the equations on paper, and then re-arrange them so that depth of fill is a function of density of the ballast and put that as a formula in the spreadsheet.   At some assumed density of fill material, the top of the fill material reaches the desired boat center of mass for stability, and adding more ballast actually makes the boat less stable, the math explodes and there is no solution.  In any case, as one adds disproportionately more ballast of lower density, the entire boat gets heavier, and would sink deeper into the water, so even with fixed dimensions, ones draft increases with decreasing ballast density.   That is not desirable.   I have done this calculation and I assure you, poured steel is far worse than poured lead no matter how you work it out.   I did this calculation because my boat has a poured iron encapsulated ballast, and later boats in the production run of my model were poured lead.   My boat is less stable and/or heavier because of it.    In Summary With the bulb/wing keel, the math (half of the reciprocal of the cube root of the ratio of ballast factors) greatly diminished the differences between the different choices of ballast material.   If one has a bulb or delta wing keel, and all the mass of the ballast is in the base, it makes comparatively little difference to draft.   In the second option: changing the dimensions of the fin keel, for constant draft and stability, the differences in choice of ballast material make a significant difference to the proportions of the keel relative to the rest of the boat, but if one has not made the keels yet, that may not be a problem.   The third option, filling a keel fuller: the math is punishingly penalizing if one lowers the density of the ballast.   It may be impossible to achieve the same stability, you will use disproportionately larger quantities of the lower density ballast (greater cost, greater mass), so the boat will certainly be heavier.  There is nothing good coming of this.   But that does not even touch on reduced occupancy fraction. Be practical and fairly estimate the occupancy factor for things that will enter the keel as a not-liquid.   One might have the keel made of a stack of laser-cut steel plates to keep a near-100% occupancy factor for steel in the keel shape and avoid working with poured steel.    Anything else with steel is going to greatly decrease the occupancy fraction of the shape, and, in direct proportion, the effective density of the ballast.   We have seen how punishingly penalizing a lower density ballast is.  For instance, 50% occupancy steel, like scrap packing in pretty tightly, that is a density of 3.5, ballast factor of 2.5, not even twice as good as concrete, which is way cheaper and easier to pour than packing scrap steel in a keel.   If one had unlimited access to scrap straight rebar and one packed it vertically into a non-tapering keel, one might get an occupancy fraction of less than pi/4 or 78%, 70% might be a best possible case.   Using the third approach of filling the keel deeper with ballast, this 70% is incredibly punishing.   You will use way more steel, and your boat will be heavier, and may not be as stable.   Unless you pour it, or cut it and stack it in an expensive and time-consuming way, Steel is going to be about 37% of the ballast fraction of lead, and that is a punishing penalty no matter how you calculate it.   Now, cost....   scrap steel costs about 35 cents a pound, lead about $1 a pound.    That 37% above, and all the work, on each tough little piece of steel to get it to pack even somewhat efficiently cancels out any advantage at all of steel, cost wise.   If you are filling a keel of fixed dimensions, steel might still given you disproportionately poorer results.  Yes, lead is a toxic material, but it is really good as a ballast, relatively cheap, will help the stability and total weight of the boat, and can provide a 100% occupancy by pouring it in hot.  But there are the you-are-building-it and origami advantages to consider.   Now, for the cost of increasing the draft by 3-6", one can change from a fixed-size keel and boat, and change from lead to steel by adding a thin flat shape, a bulb of sorts to the bottom of each keel and this will cancel out all of the disadvantages of steel, and may give you a foot that stands better on a muddy beach when drying with a tide.   Calculating and coming up with a shape: - with sufficient volume to counter the losses of inefficiently packed scrap steel in the rest of the keel over poured lead in the keel, and  - that is fair and streamlined, and  - that does not increase the hassle of picking up weeds and snagging lines is not a simple task.   After one has the shape, build a plug out of wood, take it to a small foundry, and ask them to pour two with ludicrously big steel anchor bolts in them.   They might be anywhere from 0.5-2 tons each, depending on the math, and they may cost a bit, but, you are now all steel/iron with no lead, and you do not need to worry as much about working hard to get good packing of scrap in the existing keels.   Ballast is a drag, but you need it.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 10:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Brent, The reason I ask about the lenght of the keels is to know how long would be too long for my 37 ft steel  sailboat,  i want to make them a little bigger to put steel ballast inside instead of lead Thanks, Martin On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34380|34355|2017-10-13 15:43:13|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|About 3 1/2 feet .| 34381|34381|2017-10-13 16:10:48|brentswain38|Home made vs Custom made or hand made|It is interesting how the English language can be manipulated  "Home made" has been used as a derogatory insult, whereas "hand made",  or "custom made" is used s  sign of quality, when they are exactly the same. "Crude"has become the new term for 'Not complicated enough" suggesting the way to improve "quality" in cruising yacht is to make it as complicated as you can. Seems they missed the point  Leonardo da Vinci made, when he said 'Simplicity is the ultimate  sophistication".I have seen designers like Perry  try impress, by showing the most complex  displays of wiring , plumbing,  etc, and brag about how complex he has managed to make things , discounting as "Crude" that which accomplishes the same, with far less complexity and expense. | 34382|34381|2017-10-13 16:12:53|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| Brent is there a particular article or book or post that you are reading lately that brought that to mind? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 4:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     It is interesting how the English language can be manipulated  "Home made" has been used as a derogatory insult, whereas "hand made",  or "custom made" is used s  sign of quality, when they are exactly the same. "Crude"has become the new term for 'Not complicated enough" suggesting the way to improve "quality" in cruising yacht is to make it as complicated as you can. Seems they missed the point  Leonardo da Vinci made, when he said 'Simplicity is the ultimate  sophistication". I have seen designers like Perry  try impress, by showing the most complex  displays of wiring , plumbing,  etc, and brag about how complex he has managed to make things , discounting as "Crude" that which accomplishes the same, with far less complexity and expense. | 34383|34355|2017-10-13 17:39:00|Darren Bos|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Matt, covered a lot of detail about ballast material in his post.  As a practical example, I replaced 5000lbs of steel packed in concrete with 8000lbs poured lead in my boat.  The 8000lbs lead uses a lot less space in the keel, provides a stronger righting moment to the hull and is less likely to cause problems later on.  I think Brent has mixed steel and poured lead in the ballast and had acceptable results.  I'd never go near steel and concrete. Darren On 17-10-13 07:19 AM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Brent, The reason I ask about the lenght of the keels is to know how long would be too long for my 37 ft steel  sailboat,  i want to make them a little bigger to put steel ballast inside instead of lead Thanks, Martin On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34384|34355|2017-10-13 18:52:08|garyhlucas|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| So the 1500 lb cast iron airfoil bulb on the end of a 2” thick 24” long 3 ft deep fin on my 26’ boat makes a pretty good keel?  It is very stiff for a small boat.  You notice it just stepping aboard.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 2:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice       Martin,   I posted this some time ago, about the advantage of lead:   Everything one puts in water has a buoyancy component that is equal to the density of water.   I like to work in grams per cubic centimeter, because in these units, the density of water is 1.     Concrete has a density of 2.4 in air, but in water, it has a ballast factor of (2.4 - 1) = 1.4     Cast Iron: 7.2 , (7.2 - 1) = 6.2   Steel: 8 , ( 8 - 1) = 7   Lead: 11.34 , (11.34 -1) = 10.34   Tungsten 19.3 , (19.3 - 1) = 18.3   Now if one were making all of the ballast in a bulb or delta wing keel:   http://www.centralfoundry.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/keel4.jpg   http://www.beneteau235.com/images/wing_keel_800.jpg  The differences in ballast factor would mainly determine the volume of material to buy.   Since volume is proportional to dimensions cubed, if the shape stays the same, no one dimension has to increase very much.   The most important one dimension is thickness because that contributes to draft.   If one used cast iron, the bulb or wing would have a relative thickness of 0.54, tungsten 0.38 or 70%.    We are only talking about a foot or less of total thickness for a fin, maybe 2 feet for a bulb.  Remember that the center of mass of the bulb is what is important so half the thickness.   For a sailboat design keeping a constant distance below water for the center of mass of the bulb, the difference in depth of the bottom of the bulb will translate to only a couple inches difference on total draft.     Not so with a fin keel filled with ballast material, where one sets the draft of the boat and the desired center of mass of the boat for constant desired stability properties, regardless of choice of material.     One has two choices.   Fatter or fuller.     One can make the fin keel larger in cross-sectional area, that is longer and thicker, or just thicker, in inverse proportion to the ballast factor.  This will make the fill depth of all materials the same.   Lets assume a beautiful stream-lined tungsten fin with dimensions of 1 in either plan.    Now, if we were increasing the cross-sectional area of the fin to accomodate materials with lower ballast ratios, by what fraction would we have to have the two linear dimensions increase (holding the cross-sectional shape constant).   Secondly, if we just decided, we like the fore-aft length of the keel fin, but we wanted to make it only thicker, by factor would it have to be thicker for poorer ballast materials?      Material ,          x-area     ,   thickness-only tungsten ,            1           ,           1 lead        ,            1.33      ,          1.77 steel        ,            1.62     ,           2.61 iron         ,             1.72     ,          2.95 concrete ,             3.63    ,          13.14   Those are big numbers but, going from poured lead to poured steel (poured = 100% occupancy of the keel shape) the linear dimensions of thickness and fore-aft length would only have to increase 21% (1.62/1.33 - 1) and it would just be a slightly stubbier-looking beautiful streamlined cross-section, that would be conspicuously bigger on profile view of the boat.    Yes, going from lead to steel on a fin that one makes fatter to compensate is not a small change.   The boat would have to look proportionally substantially different to keep the same draft and stability.   A 5-foot fore-aft-long lead keel would have to be a 6-foot-fore-aft-long poured steel keel.   And that is before considering the added complications of pouring steel.     One can have a fixed dimensions of keel and then just vary the fill of the keel depending on the different materials.   One quickly finds this is math that punishes poorer ballast materials.  I recommend a spread sheet to expose the true hell you are entering by not selecting lead.   If one is good at imagining shrinking 3 dimensional shapes, one can appreciate the effect.  Imagine the shape of the boat in profile, looking at it beam-on, and then imagine shrinking the profile shape fore-and-aft along horizontal lines in linear proportion to:    (depth below desired boat center of mass for stability purposes)   divided by   (depth of the bottom of the keel below the desired boat center of mass for stability purposes).     and take everything above the desired boat center of mass and just erase it.   One erases everything in the boat profile above the desired boat center of mass because you do not want to put any ballast above the boat center of mass.   This shrink transformation effectively absorbs some of the stability math into a shape.  If one can see the new shape, one is seeing the effect of the math without knowing the math.    The shape is hard to describe.  It might look like a squat double-fluke wedge stood on its fat end, like a cross between some exaggerated wood splitting device, and a hose barb.   Here are some pictures that might help see the new shape:   Flip this one the other way up, make it a lot more squat, and remove the mounting part below the flange: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/03/8f/7f/038f7ff353d37885ad94624e91a75ae1--splitting-wood-wood-tools.jpg   Imagine this but a lot shorter for its base size:   https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55cdf4dde4b0f1c89687ce44/574f961101dbae0ecdc23968/574f961d40261d226b61b4e9/1464833570147/Smith_Barb_08.jpg?format=500w Now imagine this shape as a fancy, squat, blown-glass tumbler drinking glass that one can fill to various depths with liquid.   If you can see this shape, then it is easy to see the compounding problem with lower density ballast materials.  If we pour in tungsten, we may only need a "double shot" in the bottom of the bottom portion of the glass to meet stability needs -- corresponding to half-filling the keels.   If we pour in lead, we need more, but it is starting to fill up further as the top surface of the lead has to go further up the taper of the shrinking keel part of the glass.   If we now choose steel, we have to add even more on top of this level, but it is going further up the taper, and we are filling the neck at the top of the keel.   Will we have to over-flow the lower keel part of the glass and have the steel spill over into the flare of the glass, the base of the second wedge that corresponds to the shrunken bilge?   Certainly if we choose concrete, we are filling at least some of the bilge part of the glass to get enough of it in.   In fact, because the glass tapers again, this time to nothing as we approach the desired center of mass of the boat, it is possible that we may not be able to get enough concrete into it before the glass overflows.   What does overflowing mean?  The math is exploding and telling us, we can never achieve the desired stability properties with that ballast material, in that boat.    This could easily happen for concrete, if we started with a design that was well-suited to tungsten and high stability.   In any case, the sole of the cabin may be concrete.   Now reverse the shrinking of the glass back to being boat profile, but keeping the level of fill of the ballast constant.    You see how much one is punished by choosing steel or concrete -- you have to use a whole heck of a lot more.   Disproportionately more, meaning the boat has to be heavier, there is no choice.  This means it has to ride lower in the water, increasing draft.         If one were inclined to calculate the problem using numbers, and not just appreciate the problem, I would recommend a spreadsheet.  One has to make some assumptions to do any comparison calculations.   Assume a ballast ratio.  Assume a draft.   Assume a depth of fill of the keels if lead were poured in (a 100% occupancy factor).  Set up the equations so that the overall center of mass of the boat is constant.  This means one has to calculate the center of mass of the ballast material, but this is dependent on how tall it is.   Write out the equations on paper, and then re-arrange them so that depth of fill is a function of density of the ballast and put that as a formula in the spreadsheet.   At some assumed density of fill material, the top of the fill material reaches the desired boat center of mass for stability, and adding more ballast actually makes the boat less stable, the math explodes and there is no solution.  In any case, as one adds disproportionately more ballast of lower density, the entire boat gets heavier, and would sink deeper into the water, so even with fixed dimensions, ones draft increases with decreasing ballast density.   That is not desirable.     I have done this calculation and I assure you, poured steel is far worse than poured lead no matter how you work it out.   I did this calculation because my boat has a poured iron encapsulated ballast, and later boats in the production run of my model were poured lead.   My boat is less stable and/or heavier because of it.        In Summary   With the bulb/wing keel, the math (half of the reciprocal of the cube root of the ratio of ballast factors) greatly diminished the differences between the different choices of ballast material.   If one has a bulb or delta wing keel, and all the mass of the ballast is in the base, it makes comparatively little difference to draft.     In the second option: changing the dimensions of the fin keel, for constant draft and stability, the differences in choice of ballast material make a significant difference to the proportions of the keel relative to the rest of the boat, but if one has not made the keels yet, that may not be a problem.    The third option, filling a keel fuller: the math is punishingly penalizing if one lowers the density of the ballast.   It may be impossible to achieve the same stability, you will use disproportionately larger quantities of the lower density ballast (greater cost, greater mass), so the boat will certainly be heavier.  There is nothing good coming of this.       But that does not even touch on reduced occupancy fraction.   Be practical and fairly estimate the occupancy factor for things that will enter the keel as a not-liquid.  One might have the keel made of a stack of laser-cut steel plates to keep a near-100% occupancy factor for steel in the keel shape and avoid working with poured steel.    Anything else with steel is going to greatly decrease the occupancy fraction of the shape, and, in direct proportion, the effective density of the ballast.   We have seen how punishingly penalizing a lower density ballast is.  For instance, 50% occupancy steel, like scrap packing in pretty tightly, that is a density of 3.5, ballast factor of 2.5, not even twice as good as concrete, which is way cheaper and easier to pour than packing scrap steel in a keel.   If one had unlimited access to scrap straight rebar and one packed it vertically into a non-tapering keel, one might get an occupancy fraction of less than pi/4 or 78%, 70% might be a best possible case.   Using the third approach of filling the keel deeper with ballast, this 70% is incredibly punishing.   You will use way more steel, and your boat will be heavier, and may not be as stable.   Unless you pour it, or cut it and stack it in an expensive and time-consuming way, Steel is going to be about 37% of the ballast fraction of lead, and that is a punishing penalty no matter how you calculate it.   Now, cost....   scrap steel costs about 35 cents a pound, lead about $1 a pound.    That 37% above, and all the work, on each tough little piece of steel to get it to pack even somewhat efficiently cancels out any advantage at all of steel, cost wise.   If you are filling a keel of fixed dimensions, steel might still given you disproportionately poorer results.  Yes, lead is a toxic material, but it is really good as a ballast, relatively cheap, will help the stability and total weight of the boat, and can provide a 100% occupancy by pouring it in hot.    But there are the you-are-building-it and origami advantages to consider.     Now, for the cost of increasing the draft by 3-6", one can change from a fixed-size keel and boat, and change from lead to steel by adding a thin flat shape, a bulb of sorts to the bottom of each keel and this will cancel out all of the disadvantages of steel, and may give you a foot that stands better on a muddy beach when drying with a tide.   Calculating and coming up with a shape:   - with sufficient volume to counter the losses of inefficiently packed scrap steel in the rest of the keel over poured lead in the keel, and - that is fair and streamlined, and - that does not increase the hassle of picking up weeds and snagging lines   is not a simple task.   After one has the shape, build a plug out of wood, take it to a small foundry, and ask them to pour two with ludicrously big steel anchor bolts in them.   They might be anywhere from 0.5-2 tons each, depending on the math, and they may cost a bit, but, you are now all steel/iron with no lead, and you do not need to worry as much about working hard to get good packing of scrap in the existing keels.     Ballast is a drag, but you need it.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 10:19 AMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Brent,   The reason I ask about the lenght of the keels is to know how long would be too long for my 37 ft steel  sailboat, i want to make them a little bigger to put steel ballast inside instead of lead   Thanks, Martin   On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34385|34355|2017-10-13 19:23:01|opuspaul|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|I wouldn't use steel instead of lead on any boat that didn't have a very long and very full keel.   With a fin keel or bilge keels, your ballast will take up much more room in the keels and be located higher.   I know of one boat that screwed up placing the lead in their keels in such a way that instead of being able to put water tanks above the lead in the keels and under the floors they had to relocate them under the settees.   Everything was shifted higher so they ended up with less stability and far less storage in the best and most convenient area in the boat.   IMO, this is a good way to screw up a boat.  Paul| 34386|34355|2017-10-13 21:00:49|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Good is a big word.   I was comparing the (I believe) intended ballast for a BS to options.  Brent has since given the way he has found compensates for using steel ballast - increasing the size of the keel - and he is the designer so that is that, you can't get any more authoritative than that.   My post would be more of a cautionary tale to understand how going off design changes things in unexpected ways.  As for having a stiff boat it has its pluses and minus, some I can think of: +likely a higher angle of ultimate stability +greater likelihood the boat would be self-righting in flat water (unconditional stability), or would tend to self right reasonably quickly in any wave and wind conditions that might capsize it, +likely better performance in medium and slightly stronger winds as the mast stands up into the wind better. +likely less amplitude to pitch and roll motions for most seas as there is a higher roll and pitch moment of inertia -will place more loads on hull structure in resisting motions of the hull - if the boat is fibreglass the steel keel might work is way free by concentrating loads cyclically in small areas -will place more load on the standing rigging as the boat is less compliant to variations in wind. -will place more load on the rig as the hull is induced to move more smartly towards the upright position - think trebucette counterweight. -may leave the rig standing more up into the wind and vulnerable to sudden gusts when a more heeled boat would have deflected more of the force and allowed the gustbto mainly slip by with a little more heel. -will contribute to greater stiffness and faster roll return which in the wrong seas could make for an incredibly unpleasant ride.  All boats have some sea that is unpleasant, but a boat with a softer recovery cannot be driven into as high frequency of an oscillation.  Accelerations are proportional to frequency squared.  Forces, discomfort and injury might be correlated with accelerations. I will admit considering a very similar keel arrangement on a smaller boat, but my choice would be made aware of the pluses and minuses.   On a flat lake in moderate winds it might be a very popular boat with guests.  For a lot of people, that might be their ultimate boat, a sailboat with stability more like a party pontoon boat. Matt From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 13, 18:52 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   So the 1500 lb cast iron airfoil bulb on the end of a 2” thick 24” long 3 ft deep fin on my 26’ boat makes a pretty good keel?  It is very stiff for a small boat.  You notice it just stepping aboard.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 2:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice       Martin,   I posted this some time ago, about the advantage of lead:   Everything one puts in water has a buoyancy component that is equal to the density of water.   I like to work in grams per cubic centimeter, because in these units, the density of water is 1.     Concrete has a density of 2.4 in air, but in water, it has a ballast factor of (2.4 - 1) = 1.4     Cast Iron: 7.2 , (7.2 - 1) = 6.2   Steel: 8 , ( 8 - 1) = 7   Lead: 11.34 , (11.34 -1) = 10.34   Tungsten 19.3 , (19.3 - 1) = 18.3   Now if one were making all of the ballast in a bulb or delta wing keel:   http://www.centralfoundry.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/keel4.jpg   http://www.beneteau235.com/images/wing_keel_800.jpg   The differences in ballast factor would mainly determine the volume of material to buy.   Since volume is proportional to dimensions cubed, if the shape stays the same, no one dimension has to increase very much.   The most important one dimension is thickness because that contributes to draft.   If one used cast iron, the bulb or wing would have a relative thickness of 0.54, tungsten 0.38 or 70%.    We are only talking about a foot or less of total thickness for a fin, maybe 2 feet for a bulb.  Remember that the center of mass of the bulb is what is important so half the thickness.   For a sailboat design keeping a constant distance below water for the center of mass of the bulb, the difference in depth of the bottom of the bulb will translate to only a couple inches difference on total draft.     Not so with a fin keel filled with ballast material, where one sets the draft of the boat and the desired center of mass of the boat for constant desired stability properties, regardless of choice of material.     One has two choices.   Fatter or fuller.     One can make the fin keel larger in cross-sectional area, that is longer and thicker, or just thicker, in inverse proportion to the ballast factor.  This will make the fill depth of all materials the same.   Lets assume a beautiful stream-lined tungsten fin with dimensions of 1 in either plan.    Now, if we were increasing the cross-sectional area of the fin to accomodate materials with lower ballast ratios, by what fraction would we have to have the two linear dimensions increase (holding the cross-sectional shape constant).   Secondly, if we just decided, we like the fore-aft length of the keel fin, but we wanted to make it only thicker, by factor would it have to be thicker for poorer ballast materials?      Material ,          x-area     ,   thickness-only tungsten ,            1           ,           1 lead        ,            1.33      ,          1.77 steel        ,            1.62     ,           2.61 iron         ,             1.72     ,          2.95 concrete ,             3.63    ,          13.14   Those are big numbers but, going from poured lead to poured steel (poured = 100% occupancy of the keel shape) the linear dimensions of thickness and fore-aft length would only have to increase 21% (1.62/1.33 - 1) and it would just be a slightly stubbier-looking beautiful streamlined cross-section, that would be conspicuously bigger on profile view of the boat.    Yes, going from lead to steel on a fin that one makes fatter to compensate is not a small change.   The boat would have to look proportionally substantially different to keep the same draft and stability.   A 5-foot fore-aft-long lead keel would have to be a 6-foot-fore-aft-long poured steel keel.   And that is before considering the added complications of pouring steel.     One can have a fixed dimensions of keel and then just vary the fill of the keel depending on the different materials.   One quickly finds this is math that punishes poorer ballast materials.  I recommend a spread sheet to expose the true hell you are entering by not selecting lead.   If one is good at imagining shrinking 3 dimensional shapes, one can appreciate the effect.  Imagine the shape of the boat in profile, looking at it beam-on, and then imagine shrinking the profile shape fore-and-aft along horizontal lines in linear proportion to:    (depth below desired boat center of mass for stability purposes)   divided by   (depth of the bottom of the keel below the desired boat center of mass for stability purposes).     and take everything above the desired boat center of mass and just erase it.   One erases everything in the boat profile above the desired boat center of mass because you do not want to put any ballast above the boat center of mass.   This shrink transformation effectively absorbs some of the stability math into a shape.  If one can see the new shape, one is seeing the effect of the math without knowing the math.    The shape is hard to describe.  It might look like a squat double-fluke wedge stood on its fat end, like a cross between some exaggerated wood splitting device, and a hose barb.   Here are some pictures that might help see the new shape:   Flip this one the other way up, make it a lot more squat, and remove the mounting part below the flange: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/03/8f/7f/038f7ff353d37885ad94624e91a75ae1--splitting-wood-wood-tools.jpg   Imagine this but a lot shorter for its base size:   https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55cdf4dde4b0f1c89687ce44/574f961101dbae0ecdc23968/574f961d40261d226b61b4e9/1464833570147/Smith_Barb_08.jpg?format=500w Now imagine this shape as a fancy, squat, blown-glass tumbler drinking glass that one can fill to various depths with liquid.   If you can see this shape, then it is easy to see the compounding problem with lower density ballast materials.  If we pour in tungsten, we may only need a "double shot" in the bottom of the bottom portion of the glass to meet stability needs -- corresponding to half-filling the keels.   If we pour in lead, we need more, but it is starting to fill up further as the top surface of the lead has to go further up the taper of the shrinking keel part of the glass.   If we now choose steel, we have to add even more on top of this level, but it is going further up the taper, and we are filling the neck at the top of the keel.   Will we have to over-flow the lower keel part of the glass and have the steel spill over into the flare of the glass, the base of the second wedge that corresponds to the shrunken bilge?   Certainly if we choose concrete, we are filling at least some of the bilge part of the glass to get enough of it in.   In fact, because the glass tapers again, this time to nothing as we approach the desired center of mass of the boat, it is possible that we may not be able to get enough concrete into it before the glass overflows.   What does overflowing mean?  The math is exploding and telling us, we can never achieve the desired stability properties with that ballast material, in that boat.    This could easily happen for concrete, if we started with a design that was well-suited to tungsten and high stability.   In any case, the sole of the cabin may be concrete.   Now reverse the shrinking of the glass back to being boat profile, but keeping the level of fill of the ballast constant.    You see how much one is punished by choosing steel or concrete -- you have to use a whole heck of a lot more.   Disproportionately more, meaning the boat has to be heavier, there is no choice.  This means it has to ride lower in the water, increasing draft.         If one were inclined to calculate the problem using numbers, and not just appreciate the problem, I would recommend a spreadsheet.  One has to make some assumptions to do any comparison calculations.   Assume a ballast ratio.  Assume a draft.   Assume a depth of fill of the keels if lead were poured in (a 100% occupancy factor).  Set up the equations so that the overall center of mass of the boat is constant.  This means one has to calculate the center of mass of the ballast material, but this is dependent on how tall it is.   Write out the equations on paper, and then re-arrange them so that depth of fill is a function of density of the ballast and put that as a formula in the spreadsheet.   At some assumed density of fill material, the top of the fill material reaches the desired boat center of mass for stability, and adding more ballast actually makes the boat less stable, the math explodes and there is no solution.  In any case, as one adds disproportionately more ballast of lower density, the entire boat gets heavier, and would sink deeper into the water, so even with fixed dimensions, ones draft increases with decreasing ballast density.   That is not desirable.     I have done this calculation and I assure you, poured steel is far worse than poured lead no matter how you work it out.   I did this calculation because my boat has a poured iron encapsulated ballast, and later boats in the production run of my model were poured lead.   My boat is less stable and/or heavier because of it.        In Summary   With the bulb/wing keel, the math (half of the reciprocal of the cube root of the ratio of ballast factors) greatly diminished the differences between the different choices of ballast material.   If one has a bulb or delta wing keel, and all the mass of the ballast is in the base, it makes comparatively little difference to draft.     In the second option: changing the dimensions of the fin keel, for constant draft and stability, the differences in choice of ballast material make a significant difference to the proportions of the keel relative to the rest of the boat, but if one has not made the keels yet, that may not be a problem.    The third option, filling a keel fuller: the math is punishingly penalizing if one lowers the density of the ballast.   It may be impossible to achieve the same stability, you will use disproportionately larger quantities of the lower density ballast (greater cost, greater mass), so the boat will certainly be heavier.  There is nothing good coming of this.       But that does not even touch on reduced occupancy fraction.   Be practical and fairly estimate the occupancy factor for things that will enter the keel as a not-liquid.  One might have the keel made of a stack of laser-cut steel plates to keep a near-100% occupancy factor for steel in the keel shape and avoid working with poured steel.    Anything else with steel is going to greatly decrease the occupancy fraction of the shape, and, in direct proportion, the effective density of the ballast.   We have seen how punishingly penalizing a lower density ballast is.  For instance, 50% occupancy steel, like scrap packing in pretty tightly, that is a density of 3.5, ballast factor of 2.5, not even twice as good as concrete, which is way cheaper and easier to pour than packing scrap steel in a keel.   If one had unlimited access to scrap straight rebar and one packed it vertically into a non-tapering keel, one might get an occupancy fraction of less than pi/4 or 78%, 70% might be a best possible case.   Using the third approach of filling the keel deeper with ballast, this 70% is incredibly punishing.   You will use way more steel, and your boat will be heavier, and may not be as stable.   Unless you pour it, or cut it and stack it in an expensive and time-consuming way, Steel is going to be about 37% of the ballast fraction of lead, and that is a punishing penalty no matter how you calculate it.   Now, cost....   scrap steel costs about 35 cents a pound, lead about $1 a pound.    That 37% above, and all the work, on each tough little piece of steel to get it to pack even somewhat efficiently cancels out any advantage at all of steel, cost wise.   If you are filling a keel of fixed dimensions, steel might still given you disproportionately poorer results.  Yes, lead is a toxic material, but it is really good as a ballast, relatively cheap, will help the stability and total weight of the boat, and can provide a 100% occupancy by pouring it in hot.    But there are the you-are-building-it and origami advantages to consider.     Now, for the cost of increasing the draft by 3-6", one can change from a fixed-size keel and boat, and change from lead to steel by adding a thin flat shape, a bulb of sorts to the bottom of each keel and this will cancel out all of the disadvantages of steel, and may give you a foot that stands better on a muddy beach when drying with a tide.   Calculating and coming up with a shape:   - with sufficient volume to counter the losses of inefficiently packed scrap steel in the rest of the keel over poured lead in the keel, and - that is fair and streamlined, and - that does not increase the hassle of picking up weeds and snagging lines   is not a simple task.   After one has the shape, build a plug out of wood, take it to a small foundry, and ask them to pour two with ludicrously big steel anchor bolts in them.   They might be anywhere from 0.5-2 tons each, depending on the math, and they may cost a bit, but, you are now all steel/iron with no lead, and you do not need to worry as much about working hard to get good packing of scrap in the existing keels.     Ballast is a drag, but you need it.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 10:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Brent,   The reason I ask about the lenght of the keels is to know how long would be too long for my 37 ft steel  sailboat, i want to make them a little bigger to put steel ballast inside instead of lead   Thanks, Martin   On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Sacrificial wood over steel,  is kinda  like giving  a grizzly  a pre- slap with a fly swatter, just in case your high powered rifle doesn't do the trick. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : True. As a general idea, Brent what about bolting sacraficial wood to the bottom of everything?  Sure would relieve a lot of uncertainty about the bottoming out and drying anywhere.  I would consider this in addition to 3/4" to 1" bottom plates everywhere.   Lots to grind away, lots of stiffness if one lands on a pointy hard rock.   It would be like horseshoes for the boat. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 7, 17:05 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   One should always use half inch plate  on the skeg bottom. If you are using drying anchorages a lot, paint there only lasts one or two tides anyway. Dont worry about it. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Humm, I suppose the force would still be greater than I can press with a belt sander.   200ft up a beach is how many times around the belt of a belt sander?   I would so hate redoing bottom coat on the bottom of my skeg for no good reason.   I would be inclined to stick anything under there to grind away as a sacrifice,  an old slick piece of driftwood anything.   Especially if my skeg is also the cooler for my engine.   If I were still building, I would weld in a pipe to hold wheels, or a rub-rod like some old airplanes had as the dragger landing gear.   The rod comes out on a downward slope and then curves to flat and then curves up at the end.    If it wears who cares, it is just a piece of metal.   I would make such a rod detachable so it is not a snag hazard all the rest of the time.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice     Most just let the skeg drag, altho you could do 4 wheels . Don't see the point, for short distances,  as the weight on the skeg is minimal, if you put he wheels only slightly ahead of the LCG ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Can you put one set of wheels on each keel, so the rear of the keel gets drag when pulling on the boat or can you put 2 sets of wheels on each keel like a real trailer? Martin | 34387|34355|2017-10-13 22:30:52|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Brent, I meant how long are they on top Martin On Oct 13, 2017, at 3:43 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   About 3 1/2 feet . | 34388|34381|2017-10-14 16:59:42|brentswain38|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|No, just the rantings of Bob Perry and the Bobettes,  always advocating the most complex and expensive ways of doing things, and posting pictures of, and bragging about the complexity and high prices of their boats. What is sad is how many have their cruising dreams shattered , by being conned into believing that is their only option for an offshore  boat, and wasting years of cruising time persuing such consumerism. They constantly ridicule and attack any suggestions of simpler and more affordable ways of doing things as being " Crude": ( defined as not being complicated, nor expensive enough.)I have seen many lose their  cruising dreams to such  misinformation. Their goals appear to be keeping the not so rich from cruising, and keeping them working, to keep them paying  guys like him ( up to $175 an hour for advice on things he has never done ,like long term cruising ,building, etc.) as well as blocking and jeering at anyone offering more affordable  and practical  solutions. They simply don't want anyone to have that kind of info .Perry bragged about having suckered a disabled client out of up to $175 an hour, for decades, for designing a boat which was never began, leaving the disabled person with nothing but a bunch of pictures , of a boat designed by someone with zero boat building, long term cruising , living aboard, or long term boat maintenance experience.Naturally, some one who has been conned for so much, for so long, has to try justify it, rather than admit to having been suckered so badly.  Friends headed to the Horn and Southern Ocean. They bought all the  gear they were told they ABSOLUTELY  HAD  to have. After several years down there and in the Falklands, they came home with much of that gear still in the boxes it came in.It is sadly, an often repeated story. Yet ,some still flock to such con artists, despite their sleazy track records.  I just heard an interesting quote on CBC radio . One can study hydrodynamics, get every qualification know to man, and be considered  the worlds greatest authority on hydro dynamics, but you STILL  have to get wet to learn how to swim!Ditto understanding cruising boat priorities!  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-680384358 #ygrps-yiv-680384358ygrps-yiv-1681282061 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Brent is there a particular article or book or post that you are reading lately that brought that to mind?Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 4:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made  It is interesting how the English language can be manipulated  "Home made" has been used as a derogatory insult, whereas "hand made",  or "custom made" is used s  sign of quality, when they are exactly the same. "Crude"has become the new term for 'Not complicated enough" suggesting the way to improve "quality" in cruising yacht is to make it as complicated as you can. Seems they missed the point  Leonardo da Vinci made, when he said 'Simplicity is the ultimate  sophistication". I have seen designers like Perry  try impress, by showing the most complex  displays of wiring , plumbing,  etc, and brag about how complex he has managed to make things , discounting as "Crude" that which accomplishes the same, with far less complexity and expense. | 34389|34355|2017-10-14 17:02:24|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|8 feet long on top.| 34390|34355|2017-10-14 17:07:54|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|Steel is around 495 lbs per cubic ft, lead around 700. Going 50/50 gives you around 600 lbs per cubic fit which doesn't come all that much higher than straight lead. You would want to make sure the steel  doesn't come much higher than  straight lead ,so it can  be covered completely . Only did that once, on a single keel 36. Worked out well.Punchings and cement is only around 350 lbs per cubic ft; far too light.| 34391|34355|2017-10-14 17:11:31|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|Over filling  a keel also  reduces tankage .| 34392|34355|2017-10-14 17:34:05|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| In imperial, fresh water is 62.4lb per cubic foot, so 350lb/ft^3 is a density of just over 5.6, so I am guessing about 57% steel punchings.  That is really efficient packing of punchings of a favourable geometry.   The same packing in lead would be about 9.4 or 590lb/ft^3. Remember steel floats in lead so one has to be careful how one adds the lead and punchings to keep them mixed.  Also, the punchings have to be heated too to keep the lead molten until it displaces all the air.  Many punchings are covered with zinc-alum, which you want to know the hazards of heating before doing it. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 14, 17:08 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is around 495 lbs per cubic ft, lead around 700. Going 50/50 gives you around 600 lbs per cubic fit which doesn't come all that much higher than straight lead. You would want to make sure the steel  doesn't come much higher than  straight lead ,so it can  be covered completely . Only did that once, on a single keel 36. Worked out well. Punchings and cement is only around 350 lbs per cubic ft; far too light. | 34393|34381|2017-10-14 17:43:15|opuspaul|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive.   They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat.   Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all.  When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak,  they only upped their attacks.  Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter.   There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks.   It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense.   I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat.| 34394|32742|2017-10-15 03:16:25|Chris H|Re: [origamiboats] Gord's boat|Two issues Could you send me your address again pls. Left your book in Ontario and Now in Nova Scotia. Secondly a friend is ooking into a bate bone steel hull boat that I have a bid on. I like it as the hull has been painted inside and that its a blank slate. So given the above what is recommended in terms of running the wires, plumbing and insulation. Finally given the various foam products out there and being rather cold and moist on the east coast what type of foam is now recommended. Thanks B for any advice you care to share. The vessel is a BR 34 ft Sprey in steel of course. Best and thanks  ch Thursday, October 12, 2017, 4:15 PM -0300 from opusnz@... [origamiboats] :   I just had a look at Gord's boat, in the back yard of her new owner, an ex coast guard,  professional seaman.I can see why so many walked away from her . Done to perfection ,but horrendously complex , with much of  the mass of wiring and plumbing foamed over, and no idea of which led where. The front of the engine is  an extremely complex  mass of compressors, alternators, pumps,hoses, valves, electrical gizmos  etc etc. He had a freezer  in the middle of the main cabin, big enough  to freeze a whole moose.Many would  take one look, and say "No way." I told the new owner  to just ignore all that, and put whatever he needs over the foam, and thus simple and  accessible. He got one hell of a deal, for little money. It came with  a  pile of gear , including  mast and rig, and a lot of goodies, being just down the road from Shelter Island Marine, where they dismantle old boats.I could have saved Gord a lot of time, money and trouble, if he had kept more in touch when making decisions | 34395|34355|2017-10-15 12:33:13|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Brent, Wow...8ft! On your DVD, Alex mentions the keel plates are made from3ft by 5 ft pieces, I presume those were for a smaller boat? Martin On Oct 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   8 feet long on top. | 34396|34396|2017-10-17 14:29:10|aguysailing|Bilge pitting?|see photo album Bilge Pitting put on todayI noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks...| 34397|34396|2017-10-17 15:14:30|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| Aguysailing, That looks like the lowest point in the boat.   If there were any evaporation, there would only be a higher concentration of salt there.   Also, if you used any chemical or spilled any chemical in the boat, it would lay there.   Evaporation could also concentrate it.   I do not think Wassertar is impervious to all possible chemicals, sitting against it, forever, so, my first guess would be that, something you thought was harmless, wasn't so harmless over time.   I would clean the area, grind it back, and do a good coating there, and then maybe something extra because you have seen something here already.   If the negative of the battery is grounded to the hull, and the float switch cuts the negative, then, yes, the pump may have a different potential than the hull when the pump is not active, and there could be current leakage and this may be the problem.   But don't overlook the simple first.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     see photo album Bilge Pitting put on today I noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks... | 34398|34355|2017-10-17 15:30:52|brentswain38|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|I use an 8ft by 12 foot sheet  of 1/4 inch plate, divided into 4 sides, 8 ft by 3 ft. About 4 inches goes up inside to connect to slot into the transverse angles.Sorry for the typo on my first post  on this matter.| 34399|32742|2017-10-17 15:38:47|brentswain38|Re: Gord's boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My mailing address is 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0Bare bones is a  good stage to buy a steel hull, in . You get to check every inch inside, and epoxy it properly ( Very thickly).Steve did a great job  wiring Silas Crosby. He simply ran a plastic conduit along the inside of the hull deck joint, after installing the foam and paneling.Lets one remove and run new wires any time.One positive  and one negative , from battery to bow, with everyting taken off that.Urethane spray foam is what we useTwo issues Could you send me your address again pls. Left your book in Ontario and Now in Nova Scotia. Secondly a friend is ooking into a bate bone steel hull boat that I have a bid on. I like it as the hull has been painted inside and that its a blank slate. So given the above what is recommended in terms of running the wires, plumbing and insulation. Finally given the various foam products out there and being rather cold and moist on the east coast what type of foam is now recommended. Thanks B for any advice you care to share. The vessel is a BR 34 ft Sprey in steel of course. Best and thanks chThursday, October 12, 2017, 4:15 PM -0300 from opusnz@... [origamiboats] :  I just had a look at Gord's boat, in the back yard of her new owner, an ex coast guard,  professional seaman.I can see why so many walked away from her . Done to perfection ,but horrendously complex , with much of  the mass of wiring and plumbing foamed over, and no idea of which led where. The front of the engine is  an extremely complex  mass of compressors, alternators, pumps,hoses, valves, electrical gizmos  etc etc. He had a freezer  in the middle of the main cabin, big enough  to freeze a whole moose.Many would  take one look, and say "No way." I told the new owner  to just ignore all that, and put whatever he needs over the foam, and thus simple and  accessible. He got one hell of a deal, for little money. It came with  a  pile of gear , including  mast and rig, and a lot of goodies, being just down the road from Shelter Island Marine, where they dismantle old boats.I could have saved Gord a lot of time, money and trouble, if he had kept more in touch when making decisions| 34400|34396|2017-10-17 16:14:51|Darren Bos|Re: Bilge pitting?| The clean look of the eroded area, the lack of orange rust, and nature of the pitting looks like electrolytic corrosion to me.  Given the location, my first guess would be stray current from the bilge pump. I had wondered whether these types of bilge pumps were suitable for a metal boat.  This type of pump uses "solid-state water sensing technology that recognizes the dielectric constant of water only".  I think this means that it is using two electrical contacts that allow a small current to flow through the water when both contacts are flooded by water.  This current should only flow when both contacts are submerged.  However, one of these contacts is likely to be submerged all the time and the potential between the contacts must be maintained all the time for it to work.  I never fully investigated the problem, but it looked enough like it might cause corrosion that I went with a different float switch design. Also, there is always a chance you have trouble with your wiring (internal or external to the pump).  I would detach both the negative and positive leads for the pump from the electrical system close to your breaker panel and test the resistance between the positive lead of the bilge pump and the hull when the pump is in the bilge and flooded with water (preferably salt water).  If this resistance is not very high you have a problem. Repeat the procedure for the negative lead as well.  It should also have very high resistance and be the same as the positive lead if all is well. Darren On 17-10-17 11:29 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   see photo album Bilge Pitting put on today I noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks... | 34401|34396|2017-10-17 16:35:03|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| Darren has changed my mind.    I agree about the clean look and with more detail about the pump, I would check that as more likely.   It seems though, something must have gone wrong somewhere, or every metal boat this model bilge pump is put on would sink.   I would caution on reading anything but a linear resistor with the resistance setting of a meter.   Meters work by applying a voltage out the probes and detecting the current.   "Resistance" is only defined for linear things.  Everything to do with corrosion is non-linear.   At a low applied voltage nothing can happen, then a slightly higher voltage, suddenly there is current -- the displayed resistance would drop from infinity to something, with a tiny change in test voltage.   Meters set to read resistance can put out any voltage, maybe as low as 0.5V, and that just is not high enough to overcome some electrochemical/corrosion things.   I would insert the meter into the bilge pump circuit as an ammeter, using the ordinary 12V(?) of the circuit and measure the difference in current between the negative and positive wires -- a difference means current is flowing along a different path.   The effect may only happen with a particular amount of water in the hull, not enough to trigger the pump, but enough to make some leakage path.  You could also insert the meter as an ammeter into the intentional connection of the 12V system to the hull (the 12V negative to ground/hull? perhaps at the starter for the engine or at the power interface box), and with all other appliance breakers turned off, turn on and off the bilge pump circuit and see how much the current changes in the wire leading to the hull.   If the connection to the hull is made via the engine starter, and the starter is not activated, there should be no current in that leg at all, or something somewhere in the boat is leaking current.   You might want to try all your breakers one at a time, with the ammeter at first set to 10-20 Amps, not milli-amps, in case there is a big leak somewhere.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:14 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     The clean look of the eroded area, the lack of orange rust, and nature of the pitting looks like electrolytic corrosion to me.  Given the location, my first guess would be stray current from the bilge pump. I had wondered whether these types of bilge pumps were suitable for a metal boat.  This type of pump uses "solid-state water sensing technology that recognizes the dielectric constant of water only".  I think this means that it is using two electrical contacts that allow a small current to flow through the water when both contacts are flooded by water.  This current should only flow when both contacts are submerged.  However, one of these contacts is likely to be submerged all the time and the potential between the contacts must be maintained all the time for it to work.  I never fully investigated the problem, but it looked enough like it might cause corrosion that I went with a different float switch design. Also, there is always a chance you have trouble with your wiring (internal or external to the pump).  I would detach both the negative and positive leads for the pump from the electrical system close to your breaker panel and test the resistance between the positive lead of the bilge pump and the hull when the pump is in the bilge and flooded with water (preferably salt water).  If this resistance is not very high you have a problem. Repeat the procedure for the negative lead as well.  It should also have very high resistance and be the same as the positive lead if all is well. Darren On 17-10-17 11:29 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:   see photo album Bilge Pitting put on today I noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks... | 34402|34396|2017-10-17 16:38:48|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Thanks for the info.   The eating through of the thick wasser that was there and the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems like electrolysis of some kind.  Perhaps you could email me for some detail about how and with what I can do this test.   My experience does not involve "electronics"  .   (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca)   Gary| 34403|34396|2017-10-17 16:50:46|opuspaul|Re: Bilge pitting?|I don't think it has anything to do with the wiring of the bilge pump.   I have used an automatic pump for 25 years without a problem.   It should be totally electrically insulated but if in doubt you could check it with a multimeter.    I think the problem is that you had a small pin hole in the paint and then got electrolysis to the SS angle iron bracket that is used for the bilge pump mounting.    I would get rid of the SS bracket and make a bracket out of some kind of plastic or make it shorter so that it doesn't touch the bilge water.  My bilge pump is just mounted on a piece of plastic cutting board with the switch.  It has never tipped over or been a problem.| 34404|34396|2017-10-17 16:52:57|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Thanks Matt.   Got the 1st para no problem.   The rest just was just glaze-eye.   Drop by sometime... Gary| 34405|34396|2017-10-17 16:53:57|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|..... p.sWhat pump brand would you be thinking of?| 34406|34396|2017-10-17 17:00:30|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| The instrument is a multimeter.   They are sold in Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, or if you are in the US: https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html They can measure a number of different electrical parameters, one of which is DC current.   https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a-multimeter#multimeteroverview This is a really good primer.   Current is something that is conserved.   If 1 Amp flows out into a circuit, 1 Amp must flow back somehow.   So if 1 Amp flows through the black wire going to the pump, 1Amp has to flow in the red wire.   Any difference is current taking another path.  Another path is leakage, and has the potential to cause corrosion or electrolysis.   Really, there is no way to be certain what is going on without reading all of the science buddies tabs on multimeters, and doing tests.   One can throw the bilge pump away and buy a different one, but, if the problem is not there, you have gained nothing.   It is better to learn how to make the measurements and know for certain.   You may learn you have other problems in addition to the bilge pump.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     Thanks for the info.   The eating through of the thick wasser that was there and the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems like electrolysis of some kind.  Perhaps you could email me for some detail about how and with what I can do this test.   My experience does not involve "electronics"  .   (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca)   Gary | 34407|34396|2017-10-17 17:10:01|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Yes... will definitely get that changed... good suggestion.    Thanks| 34408|34396|2017-10-17 17:12:07|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Ok... so moving along with the suggestions here (thanks guys).   Would some "weld" be a way of filling in the pitting?   There is no insulation here and I do not think filling with some weld would distort the hull??| 34409|34396|2017-10-17 17:17:37|opuspaul|Re: Bilge pitting?|If the corrosion isn't too deep, I would just prime it, paint it and fill it with epoxy filler or more paint if required.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ok... so moving along with the suggestions here (thanks guys).   Would some "weld" be a way of filling in the pitting?   There is no insulation here and I do not think filling with some weld would distort the hull??| 34410|34396|2017-10-17 22:08:08|don bourgeois|Re: Bilge pitting?|Hi, I mainly just lurk on the site but try to help whenever possible. I recommend obtaining a simpson multimeter based on my real-world use on various applications over the years. It's kind of clunky but its analog and gives very precise readings as well as being very well made. Real rubber test leads are a nice touch. It's nice when you put this unit in place and the readout is large enough to read out a distance Plus you don't have digital numbers cycling through. It's a good enough tool that I bought new test leads instead of just buying another canuk tire special (which unfortuanately own and hate.) I think it is appropriate to own and use a decent tool and from what I have gathered with DIY boat construction I would go with the Simpson. Mines a 260 bought on ebay. Sorry about the rant but I am sick of crap tools. I can't imagine sailing off the horizon and trying to reley on them. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? The instrument is a multimeter. They are sold in Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, or if you are in the US: https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html They can measure a number of different electrical parameters, one of which is DC current. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a -multimeter#multimeteroverview This is a really good primer. Current is something that is conserved. If 1 Amp flows out into a circuit, 1 Amp must flow back somehow. So if 1 Amp flows through the black wire going to the pump, 1Amp has to flow in the red wire. Any difference is current taking another path. Another path is leakage, and has the potential to cause corrosion or electrolysis. Really, there is no way to be certain what is going on without reading all of the science buddies tabs on multimeters, and doing tests. One can throw the bilge pump away and buy a different one, but, if the problem is not there, you have gained nothing. It is better to learn how to make the measurements and know for certain. You may learn you have other problems in addition to the bilge pump. Matt _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? Thanks for the info. The eating through of the thick wasser that was there and the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems like electrolysis of some kind. Perhaps you could email me for some detail about how and with what I can do this test. My experience does not involve "electronics" . (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca) Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34411|34396|2017-10-17 22:26:02|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| I agree getting a good meter is worth it.  The nature of the measurements in this case require subtracting one number from another using a pencil and paper to detect leakage.  I recommend a good digital meter.  Though one can spend hundreds I recommend about $100. Matt Get Outlook for Android From: 'don bourgeois' donb1234@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 10:08 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Hi, I mainly just lurk on the site but try to help whenever possible. I recommend obtaining a simpson multimeter based on my real-world use on various applications over the years. It's kind of clunky but its analog and gives very precise readings as well as being very well made. Real rubber test leads are a nice touch. It's nice when you put this unit in place and the readout is large enough to read out a distance Plus you don't have digital numbers cycling through. It's a good enough tool that I bought new test leads instead of just buying another canuk tire special (which unfortuanately own and hate.) I think it is appropriate to own and use a decent tool and from what I have gathered with DIY boat construction I would go with the Simpson. Mines a 260 bought on ebay. Sorry about the rant but I am sick of crap tools. I can't imagine sailing off the horizon and trying to reley on them. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? The instrument is a multimeter. They are sold in Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, or if you are in the US: https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html They can measure a number of different electrical parameters, one of which is DC current. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a -multimeter#multimeteroverview This is a really good primer. Current is something that is conserved. If 1 Amp flows out into a circuit, 1 Amp must flow back somehow. So if 1 Amp flows through the black wire going to the pump, 1Amp has to flow in the red wire. Any difference is current taking another path. Another path is leakage, and has the potential to cause corrosion or electrolysis. Really, there is no way to be certain what is going on without reading all of the science buddies tabs on multimeters, and doing tests. One can throw the bilge pump away and buy a different one, but, if the problem is not there, you have gained nothing. It is better to learn how to make the measurements and know for certain. You may learn you have other problems in addition to the bilge pump. Matt _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? Thanks for the info. The eating through of the thick wasser that was there and the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems like electrolysis of some kind. Perhaps you could email me for some detail about how and with what I can do this test. My experience does not involve "electronics" . (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca) Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 34412|34396|2017-10-18 01:13:38|Aaron|Re: Bilge pitting?|That doesn't make sense negetive to negative?  Grounding the negative from battery to hull helps prevents stray positive current from inside wires using hull and anodes to create a ground to the high conductivity of the sea water.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Aguysailing, That looks like the lowest point in the boat.   If there were any evaporation, there would only be a higher concentration of salt there.   Also, if you used any chemical or spilled any chemical in the boat, it would lay there.   Evaporation could also concentrate it.   I do not think Wassertar is impervious to all possible chemicals, sitting against it, forever, so, my first guess would be that, something you thought was harmless, wasn't so harmless over time.   I would clean the area, grind it back, and do a good coating there, and then maybe something extra because you have seen something here already.   If the negative of the battery is grounded to the hull, and the float switch cuts the negative, then, yes, the pump may have a different potential than the hull when the pump is not active, and there could be current leakage and this may be the problem.   But don't overlook the simple first.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     see photo album Bilge Pitting put on today I noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks... #ygrps-yiv-781069310 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 -- #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 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#ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115 #ygrps-yiv-781069310yiv3118424115ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-781069310 | 34413|34396|2017-10-18 08:40:27|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| >That doesn't make sense negetive to negative?  I was considering the possibility the switch was wired incorrectly. There are two wires going to the bilge pump.   If the hull is negative, and the switch breaks the negative wire in the bilge pump, then the red/positive wire in the bilge pump is continuous, through the motor and to the switch.   That means most of the wires in the bilge pump are at 12V with no return path through the black/negative wire because the switch has broken that wire.   If there is a potential difference (12V in the pump to negative in the hull) and no return path, electricity may find other routes by which to return.  There might be leakage from the 12V in the pump to the hull when the pump is off.  It is the same idea as 120VAC electricity except change the words from negative to neutral return, and 12V/positive to hot.    It is a mistake to put a switch in the neutral return because that leaves the appliance hot when it is turned off, and one can get a shock from the appliance.   One always places the switch, and breaker for that matter, in the hot wire to prevent electric shock at an appliance that is turned off.  Since that post, it was suggested that the pump has an internally wired electronic switch, so, it is unlikely this error exists.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 1:13 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     That doesn't make sense negetive to negative?   Grounding the negative from battery to hull helps prevents stray positive current from inside wires using hull and anodes to create a ground to the high conductivity of the sea water. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Aguysailing, That looks like the lowest point in the boat.   If there were any evaporation, there would only be a higher concentration of salt there.   Also, if you used any chemical or spilled any chemical in the boat, it would lay there.   Evaporation could also concentrate it.   I do not think Wassertar is impervious to all possible chemicals, sitting against it, forever, so, my first guess would be that, something you thought was harmless, wasn't so harmless over time.   I would clean the area, grind it back, and do a good coating there, and then maybe something extra because you have seen something here already.   If the negative of the battery is grounded to the hull, and the float switch cuts the negative, then, yes, the pump may have a different potential than the hull when the pump is not active, and there could be current leakage and this may be the problem.   But don't overlook the simple first.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     see photo album Bilge Pitting put on today I noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks... | 34414|34396|2017-10-18 08:49:42|garyhlucas|Re: Bilge pitting?| In its day the Simpson 260 was a top notch meter, but that was before solid state electronics.  If you had to measure very small signals like leakage current you couldn’t use us a Simpson because it loads the circuit too much.  Back then you would switch to a VTM  Vacuum Tube Meter with a much higher impedance.  Today the big name in meters is Fluke.  I have several because of the work I do.  A basic Fluke VOM, a Process Pro 789 at about $900, and a clamp on ma meter at about $1200.  My basic Fluke VOM is at least 30 years old.  VTMs are just gone.   Gary H. Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     Hi, I mainly just lurk on the site but try to help whenever possible. Irecommend obtaining a simpson multimeter based on my real-world use onvarious applications over the years. It's kind of clunky but its analog andgives very precise readings as well as being very well made. Real rubbertest leads are a nice touch. It's nice when you put this unit in place andthe readout is large enough to read out a distancePlus you don't have digital numbers cycling through. It's a good enough toolthat I bought new test leads instead of just buying another canuk tirespecial (which unfortuanately own and hate.)I think it is appropriate to own and use a decent tool and from what I havegathered with DIY boat construction I would go with the Simpson. Mines a 260bought on ebay.Sorry about the rant but I am sick of crap tools. I can't imagine sailingoff the horizon and trying to reley on them._____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:00 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?The instrument is a multimeter. They are sold in Canadian Tire, PrincessAuto, or if you are in the US:https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.htmlThey can measure a number of different electrical parameters, one of whichis DC current. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a-multimeter#multimeteroverviewThis is a really good primer. Current is something that is conserved. If1 Amp flows out into a circuit, 1 Amp must flow back somehow. So if 1 Ampflows through the black wire going to the pump, 1Amp has to flow in the redwire. Any difference is current taking another path. Another path isleakage, and has the potential to cause corrosion or electrolysis. Really, there is no way to be certain what is going on without reading allof the science buddies tabs on multimeters, and doing tests. One can throwthe bilge pump away and buy a different one, but, if the problem is notthere, you have gained nothing. It is better to learn how to make themeasurements and know for certain. You may learn you have other problems in addition to the bilge pump. Matt_____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalfof aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:38 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? Thanks for the info. The eating through of the thick wasser that was thereand the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems likeelectrolysis of some kind. Perhaps you could email me for some detail abouthow and with what I can do this test. My experience does not involve"electronics" . (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca) Gary[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34415|34396|2017-10-18 11:30:51|Darren Bos|Re: Bilge pitting?| Paul, I had overlooked the stainless angle and agree it could be the problem.  However, I have seen the insulation on pumps/switches fail internally, not to mention external failures cause by poor wiring practices.  Bilge pumps seem to be an item that folks install and forget about.  I see immersed centrifugal pumps more like a regular maintenance item, they are just not built well enough to withstand what can be a pretty hostile environment.  Last night I took a brand new Rule bilge pump, submersed it in salt water and checked the resistance between each lead and the water.  Both positive and negative leads had higher resistance than could be read on the megaohm scale on my meter.  I then did the same with a manky old rule pump I had replaced.  On it, both leads read around 2 megaohms.  This might not be enough conductivity to cause a problem, but I'd consider it the start of a problem. On 17-10-17 01:50 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I don't think it has anything to do with the wiring of the bilge pump.   I have used an automatic pump for 25 years without a problem.   It should be totally electrically insulated but if in doubt you could check it with a multimeter.    I think the problem is that you had a small pin hole in the paint and then got electrolysis to the SS angle iron bracket that is used for the bilge pump mounting.    I would get rid of the SS bracket and make a bracket out of some kind of plastic or make it shorter so that it doesn't touch the bilge water.  My bilge pump is just mounted on a piece of plastic cutting board with the switch.  It has never tipped over or been a problem. | 34416|34396|2017-10-18 11:41:58|Darren Bos|Re: Bilge pitting?| Matt, I'm sure you're right about measuring non-linear resistance with an ohm-meter and I think the methods you describe are valuable to be aware of.  However, my experience is that using an ohm-meter is a very quick way to discover problems and in my limited experience I've yet to encounter the false negative situation you describe.  It is useful as a first line of trouble shooting and if you find a problem with it there is no need to continue with the more involved (and more accurate) methods you describe. Darren On 17-10-17 01:34 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I would caution on reading anything but a linear resistor with the resistance setting of a meter.   Meters work by applying a voltage out the probes and detecting the current.   "Resistance" is only defined for linear things.  Everything to do with corrosion is non-linear.   At a low applied voltage nothing can happen, then a slightly higher voltage, suddenly there is current -- the displayed resistance would drop from infinity to something, with a tiny change in test voltage.   Meters set to read resistance can put out any voltage, maybe as low as 0.5V, and that just is not high enough to overcome some electrochemical/corrosion things.   | 34417|34396|2017-10-18 13:06:55|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Looking at his thing up close it is amazing to realize whatever did this was able to eat through at least 4 layers of thick wasser tar and an undercoating of zinc primer and then the pit the metal.   This is a serious problem that all of us steel boat owners should pay close attention to.  | 34418|34396|2017-10-18 13:42:58|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| Absolutely, using a method that does not give false positives can be a way to work quickly and find big problems.   It is only when the tests are all negative but you are sure there is a problem that things get frustrating and different methods are needed.  I agree, set it to Ohms, clamp one lead on bare metal on the hull, shut off all breakers and power switches, unplug everything with a soft switch, and run the other lead over the back of the breaker panel to test the Ohms of each circuit in the boat.  It is so easy, one should make it part of the regular routine in a metal boat.  Make notes and think about the readings.  Changes that you cannot account for are certainly bad.  Any non-infinity reading on any circuit is a potential leakage as soon as the breaker is turned back on.  I will not discount the possibility you may determine that certain readings are not a problem, or false readings induced by electrical noise.  What is the proper Ohms reading of an antenna receiving electricity from the air?  What is the proper Ohms reading for a circuit that runs all around the boat powering say deck lighting?  Why are all my Ohms readings all over the place one moment and stable the next?  Is the boat beside me on the VHF on full gain? Lastly is 15MOhm a problem, and if so, how big? (See my next email to judge the scale of problems.) Lots of trouble and uncertainty wait down that hole for someone hoping an Ohmmeter will be a final answer, full stop.  The antidote to that is pencil, paper, research (like this group), and everything else one can think of. Learning how to measure or calculate actual leakages in Amperes, using an Ammeter is better.  Far less confusion, and amps can be directly related to the rate of metal loss.  (See my next email.) Just remember, the only proper use, where you can expect final, authoritative answers using an ordinary Ohm meter is measuring the little resistors that were in transistor radios in the 1960s.  Nothing else is linear.  Everything else, the effective resistance (Volts divided by Amps) in service is different. Meggers exist to test resistances to high voltage by applying high voltages.  Meggers and Ohmmeters rarely give the same readings on the same test subject, in fact, completely contradictory readings are quite expected. Brains exist to test everything else and are indispensable when the situation admits the time to use them.   I thank those who take the time to read to the bottom of my emails. Matt Get Outlook for Android From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Matt, I'm sure you're right about measuring non-linear resistance with an ohm-meter and I think the methods you describe are valuable to be aware of.  However, my experience is that using an ohm-meter is a very quick way to discover problems and in my limited experience I've yet to encounter the false negative situation you describe.  It is useful as a first line of trouble shooting and if you find a problem with it there is no need to continue with the more involved (and more accurate) methods you describe. Darren On 17-10-17 01:34 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I would caution on reading anything but a linear resistor with the resistance setting of a meter.   Meters work by applying a voltage out the probes and detecting the current.   "Resistance" is only defined for linear things.  Everything to do with corrosion is non-linear.   At a low applied voltage nothing can happen, then a slightly higher voltage, suddenly there is current -- the displayed resistance would drop from infinity to something, with a tiny change in test voltage.   Meters set to read resistance can put out any voltage, maybe as low as 0.5V, and that just is not high enough to overcome some electrochemical/corrosion things.   | 34419|34396|2017-10-18 15:30:28|opuspaul|Re: Bilge pitting?|I did electronics (avionics) troubleshooting for a living.   I  used the Simpson meters in school.  I was very happy to not ever have to  use those heavy and clunky analog meters again.  The cheapest digital meters are able to see things that the analog meters like the Simpson miss.   I have a very expensive Techtronics digital meter with all the bells and whistles that has an analog bar on it with changeable dampening, a frequency meter and a capacitance checker.  If I remember right, it cost about $300.   I seldom use it since I want to save it for anything critical.  Fluke are good meters too and seem to be standard in industry.  They are rugged and reliable but I am not sure they are worth double the price of a no name meter.   You can get some pretty good meters out of China for 20 to 30 dollars.    I have bought some cheap disposable meters that cost about $3 from Ali Express.   These are the same meters often seen in stores for $20. They are so cheap that I keep one in the car, one in the boat and one in the house.  I take one when traveling.   The leads are terrible that come with the cheap meters so I make up some better ones on my own.  If you blow them up, drop them in the water or leave them out in the rain, it is no big deal.  Buy a dozen and use them as stocking stuffers at Christmas :).https://www.aliexpress.com/item/AC-DC-Ammeter-Voltmeter-Ohm-Electrical-Tester-Meter-Professional-Digital-Multimeter-DT830B/32627351886.html?| 34420|34396|2017-10-18 15:45:23|opuspaul|Re: Bilge pitting?|Darren, your method of checking the wiring is the one I would use.  It is much easier to check lead resistance than current in and out.  I agree that bilge pumps aren't very reliable.   I think I am on my 3rd bilge pump and my 3rd float switch now so in my experience they last only about 5-8 yrs with only intermittent cycling.   The Rule pump I had seemed to last the longest but I suspect a lot of the pumps come out of the same factory now.   I have avoided buying the very cheap and manky looking pumps.  Now that I have a dripless shaft seal, the pump seldom ever runs.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Paul, I had overlooked the stainless angle and agree it could be the problem.  However, I have seen the insulation on pumps/switches fail internally, not to mention external failures cause by poor wiring practices.  Bilge pumps seem to be an item that folks install and forget about.  I see immersed centrifugal pumps more like a regular maintenance item, they are just not built well enough to withstand what can be a pretty hostile environment.  Last night I took a brand new Rule bilge pump, submersed it in salt water and checked the resistance between each lead and the water.  Both positive and negative leads had higher resistance than could be read on the megaohm scale on my meter.  I then did the same with a manky old rule pump I had replaced.  On it, both leads read around 2 megaohms.  This might not be enough conductivity to cause a problem, but I'd consider it the start of a problem. | 34421|34396|2017-10-18 16:04:27|opuspaul|Re: Bilge pitting?|This is how electrolysis works and why I think it was caused by the SS bracket.  In your picture, it looks to me like you can almost see the flow traces to the bracket.   A small pin hole or chip is all it takes.  It doesn't really eat through the layers of paint.   The electrical current starts flowing from the tiny pinhole, gets in under the paint and just bubbles or lifts the paint off.  If it was an aluminum boat, it probably would have been much much worse.One clue that it is electrolysis is how clean the metal looks.  Watch the bubbles in this video....with a lot of voltage and current, electrolysis can be a very powerful action.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN590K81D5c---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Looking at his thing up close it is amazing to realize whatever did this was able to eat through at least 4 layers of thick wasser tar and an undercoating of zinc primer and then the pit the metal.   This is a serious problem that all of us steel boat owners should pay close attention to.  | 34422|34396|2017-10-18 17:21:08|Matt Malone|Re: Bilge pitting?| Fluke is an excellent meter.  The price though is steep.    As a just for instance there are a lot of 4-and-a-half digit meters out there now for reasonable prices.   They are not Flukes, but, they might be quite capable: https://www.ebay.com/itm/UT61E-Auto-Range-Digital-Multimeter-High-Precision-4-5-Bits-AC-DC-Multimeter-NEW/262563794337?_trkparms=aid%3D555019%26algo%3DPL.BANDIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3Dc837697a7838446d804fade2d7609116%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226 The issue in detecting leakage is not absolute accuracy, which Fluke will score top marks in, but, proportionality and consistency over a few minutes.   I want to take one measurement, then a few minutes later, take another measurement, and subtract them.   I do not care if the first two measurements are perfect, I just need them to not be randomized by noise, or drifted by temperature between one measurement and the other, and be proportional to the real answer so that when I subtract them I know if I have a problem or not.   A meter that has incredible absolute accuracy is not needed.   One just needs a meter that will read a slightly larger number when it sees slightly more current so that when one can subtract a current reading from a slightly larger current reading and detect the leakage.   I would like a 4-and-a-half digit multimeter for that.   But if one can set up the measurement so one can directly measure leakage current, by say disconnecting the negative wire of the appliance, then a cheap 3-and-a-half digit meter (Canadian Tire etc.) might be quite effective.    Most meters will have a 2mAmp scale, some even a 200 microAmp scale.   In any case a current of 20 microAmps is typically detectable on a cheap meter. There is a really big leverage, if you will, between current and mass loss.   It takes an easily measurable current or a long time to remove a small amount of metal.   A sketch of the calculation goes like this: one has to start with an Amp, which is a Coulomb per second, and the Coulomb is a very large number of electrons, then assume a number of electrons to free an iron atom, then use Avagadro's number (a mole) which allows one to calculate how many atoms of a particular element are in a gram, and then for a given current, how many grams per second, day or year.   The thing is Avagadro's number divided by a Coulomb is nearly 100,000... that is a huge ratio.   This favors discovery of leakage currents with low mass loss rates.     Take a current of 20 microAmps.   Assume it takes one electron to liberate one atom of iron.   It would take one YEAR to dissolve 0.2 grams of iron atoms with a 20 microAmp leakage.   Where the boat hull has a mass of about 24 grams per square inch, that is very small.    That is so small one might be inclined to ignore any reading this small, but be careful.   Strange things can happen at the crystal scale, one can get cracks in some alloys, or pin poles, or preferential consumption at the junction of two alloys, so, even a small mass loss rate can cause more trouble than you might think.   Still, that is a very small mass loss rate for a current that one should be able to read on most inexpensive meters.    Even OPUSNZ's favourite $3 Christmas stocking stuffer meter has a 200 microAmps DC scale: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/AC-DC-Ammeter-Voltmeter-Ohm-Electrical-Tester-Meter-Professional-Digital-Multimeter-DT830B/32627351886.html? Now lets consider a leakage current of 1.0 Amp.   That is not that much, certainly a lot in the age of LED lighting, but, not much compared to battery storage, alternator outputs, solar panel outputs, wind generator outputs, refrigeration, computer or radio loads.    One might have a leakage of that amount and the only symptom might be, having to run the engine a little longer.   On shore power one might never notice.  With substantial alternate power, the battery-fully-charged light might not be on for as much of the time and the battery charging light might be on nearly all the time.   1.0 Amps (with the same assumptions) corresponds to a mass loss rate of 2.1 grams of iron per hour !   Remember, one might have only 24 grams of iron in each square inch of hull.   During one overnight, that is a good sized hole if the loss is focused in one area, or several square feet of paint peeled off it is is more distributed.     A leakage (1.0Amps) that a single house battery (100A-hr) could drive for 4 days before being exhausted, might sink your boat on the first night !
 Leakage can be very serious in an ignore-ably short period of time, but might be detected even at glacially slow rates, even with basic instrumentation and a little knowledge on how to use a multimeter.    That link again for those persuaded to push through and learn how to use a multimeter: https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a-multimeter How to Use a Multimeter - Science Buddies www.sciencebuddies.org Multimeter Tutorial: explains the basic functions of a multimeter and shows how to measure voltage, resistance, and current with digital multimeters. It is a good reference to help a boater get started with a very useful tool. It seems the consensus on the particular case Aguysailing posted is leaning more toward induced currents from dissimilar alloys, the stainless angle seen in the photographs in this case, being responsible for the damage.   Here a multimeter cannot help you.   The huge lever between measured current and mass loss rate cannot help you either.   It is the atoms in a mass of another alloy that are driving the current and even if they too are consumed in the reaction, by mass, the material in the stainless angle is many times greater than the iron in any given square inch of hull.   Electrolytic consumption induced by dissimilar alloys can be just as serious.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 8:49 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     In its day the Simpson 260 was a top notch meter, but that was before solid state electronics.  If you had to measure very small signals like leakage current you couldn’t use us a Simpson because it loads the circuit too much.  Back then you would switch to a VTM  Vacuum Tube Meter with a much higher impedance.  Today the big name in meters is Fluke.  I have several because of the work I do.  A basic Fluke VOM, a Process Pro 789 at about $900, and a clamp on ma meter at about $1200.  My basic Fluke VOM is at least 30 years old.  VTMs are just gone.   Gary H. Lucas 609-647-0450 Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     Hi, I mainly just lurk on the site but try to help whenever possible. I recommend obtaining a simpson multimeter based on my real-world use on various applications over the years. It's kind of clunky but its analog and gives very precise readings as well as being very well made. Real rubber test leads are a nice touch. It's nice when you put this unit in place and the readout is large enough to read out a distance Plus you don't have digital numbers cycling through. It's a good enough tool that I bought new test leads instead of just buying another canuk tire special (which unfortuanately own and hate.) I think it is appropriate to own and use a decent tool and from what I have gathered with DIY boat construction I would go with the Simpson. Mines a 260 bought on ebay. Sorry about the rant but I am sick of crap tools. I can't imagine sailing off the horizon and trying to reley on them. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? The instrument is a multimeter. They are sold in Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, or if you are in the US: https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html They can measure a number of different electrical parameters, one of which is DC current. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a -multimeter#multimeteroverview This is a really good primer. Current is something that is conserved. If 1 Amp flows out into a circuit, 1 Amp must flow back somehow. So if 1 Amp flows through the black wire going to the pump, 1Amp has to flow in the red wire. Any difference is current taking another path. Another path is leakage, and has the potential to cause corrosion or electrolysis. Really, there is no way to be certain what is going on without reading all of the science buddies tabs on multimeters, and doing tests. One can throw the bilge pump away and buy a different one, but, if the problem is not there, you have gained nothing. It is better to learn how to make the measurements and know for certain. You may learn you have other problems in addition to the bilge pump. Matt _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? Thanks for the info. The eating through of the thick wasser that was there and the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems like electrolysis of some kind. Perhaps you could email me for some detail about how and with what I can do this test. My experience does not involve "electronics" . (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca) Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 34423|34396|2017-10-18 17:57:33|don bourgeois|Re: Bilge pitting?| I like the fluke equipment but never could justify the cost. If I had the money though I might get one.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     In its day the Simpson 260 was a top notch meter, but that was before solid state electronics.  If you had to measure very small signals like leakage current you couldn’t use us a Simpson because it loads the circuit too much.  Back then you would switch to a VTM  Vacuum Tube Meter with a much higher impedance.  Today the big name in meters is Fluke.  I have several because of the work I do.  A basic Fluke VOM, a Process Pro 789 at about $900, and a clamp on ma meter at about $1200.  My basic Fluke VOM is at least 30 years old.  VTMs are just gone.   Gary H. Lucas 609-647-0450 Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting?     Hi, I mainly just lurk on the site but try to help whenever possible. I recommend obtaining a simpson multimeter based on my real-world use on various applications over the years. It's kind of clunky but its analog and gives very precise readings as well as being very well made. Real rubber test leads are a nice touch. It's nice when you put this unit in place and the readout is large enough to read out a distance Plus you don't have digital numbers cycling through. It's a good enough tool that I bought new test leads instead of just buying another canuk tire special (which unfortuanately own and hate.) I think it is appropriate to own and use a decent tool and from what I have gathered with DIY boat construction I would go with the Simpson. Mines a 260 bought on ebay. Sorry about the rant but I am sick of crap tools. I can't imagine sailing off the horizon and trying to reley on them. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? The instrument is a multimeter. They are sold in Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, or if you are in the US : https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html They can measure a number of different electrical parameters, one of which is DC current. https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/how-to-use-a -multimeter#multimeteroverview This is a really good primer. Current is something that is conserved. If 1 Amp flows out into a circuit, 1 Amp must flow back somehow. So if 1 Amp flows through the black wire going to the pump, 1Amp has to flow in the red wire. Any difference is current taking another path. Another path is leakage, and has the potential to cause corrosion or electrolysis. Really, there is no way to be certain what is going on without reading all of the science buddies tabs on multimeters, and doing tests. One can throw the bilge pump away and buy a different one, but, if the problem is not there, you have gained nothing. It is better to learn how to make the measurements and know for certain. You may learn you have other problems in addition to the bilge pump. Matt _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bilge pitting? Thanks for the info. The eating through of the thick wasser that was there and the very specific location being right behind the pump sure seems like electrolysis of some kind. Perhaps you could email me for some detail about how and with what I can do this test. My experience does not involve "electronics" . (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca) Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 34424|34396|2017-10-19 16:53:21|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Since zinc primer will set up galvanic reaction if the overcoat is compromised allowing penetration by salt water.  What primer to use in my bilge as I need to paint over this bare metal caused (best bet) by the galvanic reaction of the pump bracket with the hull.| 34425|34396|2017-10-20 15:46:15|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Yes... as a matter of fact Tremclad produce Rust Reformer primer and paint will work for this particular case....  | 34426|34396|2017-10-20 16:45:39|opuspaul|Re: Bilge pitting?|Paint it just like you would if it was the underbody on the hull.   A two pack paint like PPG Ameron 400 (Amerlock 2) on bare steel would be my first choice for anything that is constantly in the water.   I will be much better than any single part paint.   If you can't get the metal really clean or you are in doubt, use a rust killer/ prep to etch the metal and rinse well.   You might not be able to get the Ameron in small quantities.  The base color is normally a light grey.What kind of paint is on it now?  I see it is black.   If it is coal tar epoxy, you might want to use that again.| 34427|34396|2017-10-20 18:52:50|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Opus... Yes, what you see in the pics is Wasser Tar.   I used Amerlock on the below waterline hull last summer and it looks good so far.  I have none left.  I used TremClad Rust Reformer (avail small quantity spray can) for the shore term until my next coat of Amerlock to go below the waterline hull once the hot weather arrives next summer.  I will use some of this for the interior to re-coat  the bilge area.| 34428|34396|2017-10-20 19:25:42|brentswain38|Re: Bilge pitting?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I like to weld a big Z3 zinc in the low point of the bilge, to protect it, any time there is water in the bilge .see photo album Bilge Pitting put on todayI noticed right in behind the bilge pump a circular wearing right down to metal.   This went through the wasser tar paint and is pitting the metal.  Could this have been caused by the bilge pump which is always "on" automatic....sort of galvanic process perhaps  (If water comes in high enough pump goes on).  There is always a small puddle of salt water in this area from the normal stuffing box operation and some condensation.  Thanks...| 34429|32742|2017-10-20 19:30:40|brentswain38|Re: Gord's boat|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :For any Bruce Roberts designs ,read in his book "The Complete Guide to Steel Boats" how he designs the skegs to fall off if they hit anything.Then beef up the skeg properly . Read the discussion on this at "Metalboatsociety.org . Some have fallen off.Two issues Could you send me your address again pls. Left your book in Ontario and Now in Nova Scotia. Secondly a friend is ooking into a bate bone steel hull boat that I have a bid on. I like it as the hull has been painted inside and that its a blank slate. So given the above what is recommended in terms of running the wires, plumbing and insulation. Finally given the various foam products out there and being rather cold and moist on the east coast what type of foam is now recommended. Thanks B for any advice you care to share. The vessel is a BR 34 ft Sprey in steel of course. Best and thanks chThursday, October 12, 2017, 4:15 PM -0300 from opusnz@... [origamiboats] :  I just had a look at Gord's boat, in the back yard of her new owner, an ex coast guard,  professional seaman.I can see why so many walked away from her . Done to perfection ,but horrendously complex , with much of  the mass of wiring and plumbing foamed over, and no idea of which led where. The front of the engine is  an extremely complex  mass of compressors, alternators, pumps,hoses, valves, electrical gizmos  etc etc. He had a freezer  in the middle of the main cabin, big enough  to freeze a whole moose.Many would  take one look, and say "No way." I told the new owner  to just ignore all that, and put whatever he needs over the foam, and thus simple and  accessible. He got one hell of a deal, for little money. It came with  a  pile of gear , including  mast and rig, and a lot of goodies, being just down the road from Shelter Island Marine, where they dismantle old boats.I could have saved Gord a lot of time, money and trouble, if he had kept more in touch when making decisions| 34430|34381|2017-10-20 19:54:12|brentswain38|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That was where they ridiculed me for mentioning that welded in stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls  had given me zero problem in over 40 years. They  advocated a complex combination of mild steel pipe flanges, bolts, goop, etc ending in a stainless nipple . Of all the jeering "Experts " there, only one had built any steel boats, and he had only limited coastal cruising experience.The rest had almost zero steel boat experience, (Just  like Bob Perry)When asked about how much steel boat experience they had, only one responded with any . One named Troy said "I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts, so I know  a lot about steel boat building.!"  They attacked every post I made.One Aussie named Pete Wiley, now masquerading under the childish alias FKT on Sailing Anarchy, has taken many years building a Colvin , to get to where my clients get to in a couple of weeks, leaving him with  a cramped, slow,  tender, "collection of closets" type  boat .Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ( Schadenfreude!)Most of these sites  ban anyone who has any actual hands on steel boat experience, leaving them as " plastic boat owners only,  advice on steel boats!"I have heard that Perry threatened to sue the moderators on Sailing Anarchy, if they didn't delete all my posts.Seems the moderators there may be also liable for the slander they have enabled against me, and copyright infringement , as well as criminal charges.This is one of only couple of sites on which accurate steel boat info is available, from those who know what we are talking about, from first hand experience, and, by far ,the most active.I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive.   They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat.   Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all.  When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak,  they only upped their attacks.  Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter.   There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks.   It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense.   I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat.| 34431|34396|2017-10-20 19:58:57|brentswain38|Re: Bilge pitting?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Filing it with  weld would  be no problem.Ok... so moving along with the suggestions here (thanks guys).   Would some "weld" be a way of filling in the pitting?   There is no insulation here and I do not think filling with some weld would distort the hull??| 34432|34381|2017-10-20 22:35:44|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| Well Brent, it is never right to ridicule anyone, but lets look at this in light of the recent bilge pitting thread.   Lets also suppose that some people are very cautious about when they tell other people what is safe, even if they know they could do it safely themselves with their own skill or experience.   We are only talking about things here that fall outside "accepted industry practices".    When one is super cautious, one merely has to recommend industry practices, or if it is not within "accepted industry practices", be 1000% sure what they say is completely idiot-proof.   It is easy to imagine, and fair to say, that not everyone might be 1000% convinced that everything Brent says is completely idiot-proof.   I am not even 100% certain, and I like Brent's ideas.      The last really big thing in boat hulls was fibreglass.  That was started 60 years ago (happy birthday to my boat) for yachts, and a little earlier for military craft that are getting shot at and may only be intended for one mission.   A whole lot of people started building them, when the liability and litigation climate was much better, and within 10 years some goofballs decided they could shave it thinner and thinner, and now we have glorious crap that will be unrecycleable waste in less than half the time of any properly built fibreglass hull.    But after 30 years, it had reached a nadir and an industry standard had been established.   That is a get-out-of-jail-free card for anyone who says it is acceptable to do it according to acceptable industry standards.     That is just one example of when an industry standard is crap.   Now Brent is talking about welding stainless to regular steel and exposing it to salt water outside the boat, in the hole.    Perhaps these posters imagined something like what Gary / Aguysailing had posted, except on the outside, 3 feet below the waterline were no idiot is ever going to find the problem, and even average cruisers might go 8 months between inspections in the cold season.  A leak that "suddenly" breaks through the paint on the inside before the stop-cock on a through-hull can be very disconcerting.   It might put one completely off metal boats if one arrived back to the boat to find it half full of water, you have to go wake up all sorts of people (because your engine is underwater and won't start) to help get it pumped out before the water pours into the cabin, then you find that a piece of stainless steel welded to the hull nearly sunk you.    A giant piece of plastic that simply cannot do any degradation quickly might look very inviting at that moment.   Lets give these "traditionalists" credit for at least having heard such a horror story at some point, and knee-jerk, they are afraid of what Brent posts.   I know, Brent is going to say a surprise leak at a stainless through-hull has simply never happened to an orgami under Brent's supervision.   That is the point though, has anyone else been as hands-on with helping building others boats as Brent?   Certainly not Bob.   Perhaps Bob is not the type to hurt himself with the first tool you pass him, but he still has to keep it either completely idiot-proof or within accepted standard practice or someone will sue him.   There are plenty of yahoos who have only a little more experience than Bob, and would recommend all sorts of half-baked short cuts to accepted industry standards if they were not challenged.   As an anonymous group with no follow-up, anything that is not industry-standard on metalboats has to get talked down.   Its just the ecology of its ecosystem.    That is before one starts adding factors like vested interest and livelihoods based on doing things like they were done before.   Origami boats is completely different.  Brent approves all members.   If the questions get too detailed, Brent recommends, buy my book, buy my plans.  Up until a few years ago, Brent went in-person to build sites.   Brent has the control over the forum to entertain non-industry standard things and keep people out of trouble.   If Brent detects that anyone of the type who might hurt themselves with the first tool they are handed is contemplating building an origami, he can tailor the message.   Not so on these other forums.    Maybe some of these people on other forums are such terrible welders, or have seen such terrible welders, or human welders who have made one mistake, or whatever it takes to cause what happened in Gary's boat, and that is why they are dead set on having no stainless in contact with seawater, especially underwater on the outside of the boat.   No doubt Brent will tell us the trick he has found that prevents all problems, like taking a tiny little brush and painting the inside of the stainless nipple 3 times more often, to make sure there is complete coverage, and add extra zincs so the rudder post and prop shaft do not suffer preferential corrosion because of this stainless.   I am not at all saying Brents methods are bad.   You just can't expect others to agree they are safe enough to be completely idiot-proof when it represents a deviation from more traditional practice.   Its all about CYA, the CYA of everyone else on these forums, as well as their empires, and livelihoods etc.   If it is traditional practice, it does not matter how stupid it is, people who are strictly cautious about what they recommend for others can say it is traditional practice and feel safe from complete idiots suing them.   If it is outside tradition practice, even if it has some serious benefits, like origami, the same people have to be cautious.  The internet being the internet, not all are diplomatic in their responses, surprise surprise.   Brent being Brent, pushes back, points out the obvious, but there is a little more added, something that adds nothing to the logic of Brent's point.   Brent might say something that might be strictly true from his point of view, like calling them dinosaurs with no real experience would be the least insulting label but in any case, it all sounds ad-hominem from the other end.  I have read some threads that spiraled badly out of control.  Next thing you know it gets ugly, it goes back and forth and Brent gets banned.  The person wishing to argue for change has to use a little more honey, less vinager, it is just the way it is.   Lets all be grateful most of us live in countries where the secret police to not hunt down and disappear people like Brent who post things against accepted traditional practices. Its is honey, or just make the change and make them come to you -- that is working for Space-X.   For origami boats that would be making 10,000 Brent boats, so there are 2 in every port, that would be enough to create a standard.   People would still argue for and against Brent boats, nothing would really change, but more people would be on the FOR side of it.    Origami boats works because Brent is hands-on and keeps it real, and in the end if he says it, the buck stops with him.   I cannot imagine Brent and any other forum working out, long term, any more than I can see Richard Branson making a good employee.     Brent, have you ever considered writing another book where you update and include more of the details of the techniques, particularly since you are no longer travelling to builds ?    I know it is impossible to make everything idiot-proof, but it is your opportunity to create an industry standard by explaining the details about how (what techniques) and why your deviations work, and what is gained in doing it your way.   Concise explanations, without rhetoric, of why the alternative industry standards are inferior, for what clearly defined classes of construction would be useful also.   Keep it positive, and don't leave out the "softer" advantages.   Like the psychological benefits of origami for a home builder and their partner -- seeing something that looks like a boat pretty quickly -- have to be acknowledged.   One has to fairly acknowledge, from there on, that Brent has quite a lot of suggestions on systems that can save money, but if people want to fit out like other yachts with more turn-key, new options, the costs from that point on will be pretty much the same regardless of the methods.   There should be a giant chapter about buying an existing origami boat and another chapter about regular and long term maintenance for an existing origami.   Realistically portraying the ongoing maintenance out to 60 years or something will clearly set an origami apart from the options.   This will contribute to the demand for, and price for existing origami boats, and the result is more people will see the value in building one of their own.   An entire chapter on the fin verses a pair of bilge keels is really important too.  Give pros and cons both ways -- how each impact things like ease of maintenance below the water line, the costs, resale price, and these things might be region specific.   Then an entire chapter on cruising, what options - rig and systems, past owners have included for what trips.   An entire section on the options for the Northwest Passage and Cape Horn would be good -- there are not many production fibreglass boats that will be able to follow you there -- you might name a few that in your humble opinion might make it -- let the readers look up the price tag on those antarctic-ready production boats and choke on the price.   Keep the message positive.  Include a brief history, as best you know it of every origami built -- tell the good features of each.   Call them the pioneer class of origami boats, and the new book reflects all of the things learned since.   That is a great selling point.   Have an entire section in the money saving systems chapter devoted to great ideas contributed by the pioneers of origami building.  There are so many positive messages that people will feel good to read that might be included in the book.   If people feel good reading a book, they will talk about it, loan it and recommend it.      Brent, there is so much you have to contribute and an updated and expanded book is a far better forum to do it.   Make it the must-have book for every dreamer, if you have to, to sell enough to cover printing costs and get some market penetration.   Get an ISBN number so it gets bought up by every library that aspires to have a "complete" collection.          I think an updated book is the best place to get all your ideas down.  Now is the perfect time to start.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 7:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : That was where they ridiculed me for mentioning that welded in stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls  had given me zero problem in over 40 years. They  advocated a complex combination of mild steel pipe flanges, bolts, goop, etc ending in a stainless nipple .  Of all the jeering "Experts " there, only one had built any steel boats, and he had only limited coastal cruising experience. The rest had almost zero steel boat experience, (Just  like Bob Perry) When asked about how much steel boat experience they had, only one responded with any . One named Troy said "I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts, so I know  a lot about steel boat building.!"   They attacked every post I made.One Aussie named Pete Wiley, now masquerading under the childish alias FKT on Sailing Anarchy, has taken many years building a Colvin , to get to where my clients get to in a couple of weeks, leaving him with  a cramped, slow,  tender, "collection of closets" type  boat . Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ( Schadenfreude!) Most of these sites  ban anyone who has any actual hands on steel boat experience, leaving them as " plastic boat owners only,  advice on steel boats!" I have heard that Perry threatened to sue the moderators on Sailing Anarchy, if they didn't delete all my posts. Seems the moderators there may be also liable for the slander they have enabled against me, and copyright infringement , as well as criminal charges. This is one of only couple of sites on which accurate steel boat info is available, from those who know what we are talking about, from first hand experience, and, by far ,the most active. I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive.   They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat.   Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all.  When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak,  they only upped their attacks.  Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter.   There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks.   It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense.   I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat. | 34433|34396|2017-10-21 13:59:48|aguysailing|Re: Bilge pitting?|Thanks Brent... however, just thinking about the heat of welding maybe affecting my new Amerlock hull paint.| 34434|34396|2017-10-21 19:40:42|brentswain38|Re: Bilge pitting?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, it would burn it, and require touch up outside. You can put  a straight edge across any pits, and measure their depth with the bottom of a dial caliper.What looks like huge craters, often  ends up being only a couple of thou depth.Thanks Brent... however, just thinking about the heat of welding maybe affecting my new Amerlock hull paint.| 34435|34396|2017-10-22 16:45:58|brentswain38|Re: Bilge pitting?|One instrument I have found extremely handy is a cheap digital volt meter with two longer wires soldered on.Much more compact, and easier to carry in my pocket, when shopping for  a battery. As much testing  is for voltage, it sees far more use around the boat than my multi meter ever did.I wrapped mine in stainless and epoxy for better protection.| 34436|34381|2017-10-22 17:50:00|brentswain38|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|Industry standards and rules forbid progress, innovation and thinking outside the box. They  tend to keep things in the stone age of development and progress,and attack anyone trying to find a better way,sometimes decades after their better way has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. They  make absolutely no consideration of economics and time, the two biggest hurdles most wannabe cruisers face, assuming all have unlimited funds and time, a miscalculation which makes their decrees grossly irrelevant and inaccurate, in terms of the average cruiser .Any accountant will tell you,  if you get one factor wrong, then every calculation from that point on is inaccurate,and thus,irrelevant. A friend bought a new Crealock 37 many years ago. Built like a brick  shit house ,very solid.After many years of cruising in her, she went to the shop, and was appalled at how much they had begun to skimp on the  structural,general  quality, and minimized things.That is what you get for their "years of experience" ( in learning how little  they could get away with!)When she asked about safety of their customers, they said "We don't care  about that ,all we are concerned about are profit margins!"Typical  of what happens with many stock ,mass produced boats!   (Professionally  built!)When stainless welded in thru hulls give zero problems over 40 or 50 years,no,   electrons don't suddenly, change their behavior, and start acting differently.That is as ludicrous as  Mike Johns claim that an origami boat design, which has survived decades of ocean cruising, including some severe torture tests ,with no serious structural problems of any kind , just may break in the first 4 hours, and are  not strong enough  ,not as strong as  plastic boats which have repeatedly broke up in minutes in the  same conditions, because the numbers say so. Yes, some of the origami boat critics are actually that loony, and have many just as loony people believing them. I have seen plenty of bare stainless prop shafts giving zero electrolysis problems on steel boats, over decades.. Rarely are they ever painted.Paint doesn't stick very long to stainless.Critics of such,  accept aluminium sail drives with bronze props, in sea water full time, without question, or anchor winches with bronze gypsies on galvanized chain , and aluminium housings,  with stainless  shafts, with mild steel keys. I have never heard of any problems you describe, in over 40 years of steel boat building, even some built by some of the worst welders imaginable.I have slapped a plastic thru hull off with my hand, leaving a big hole in the boat.Even a bad weld is much  stronger than that. Thus extreme weakness in a plastic thru hull is an inevitability, where as a bad weld that weak is extremely unlikely . 1/4 inch of good weld on the entire thru hull is stronger.I have never advocated trying to keep paint inside a thru hull,  as that would have zero advantage ,as in over 40+ years, corrosion has not been a problem with stainless on mild steel ,ever. The zincs take care of that . What you describe is a mythical  problem, that doesn't happen in real life. That is the glaring difference  between theory and experience based reality.  No, people like Perry ,etc , will never be able to comprehend this difference, without hands on cruising,building and maintenance  experience, in the real world, outside their offices,  period! Given welding stainless thru hulls on has never caused a hint of corrosion, in over 40 years, it is  obvious Gary's problems are from the current fed to the pump  from his battery ,period!I have frequently  added to my book over the years. Watermaker, welder ,composting head ,furler improvements , stove,, etc, etc  have all been added to  the original version. The fact that people who lend them, almost always end up getting  them stolen , is an indicator of how popular they are,once someone sees the contents. People so incredibly stupid as to believe that which as worked well  for over 40 years, thru many extreme torture tests ,with zero structural  problems at sea,  ever, are not strong enough, and just may break in the first  4 hours, are of no interest to anyone but a shrink ,or someone who is just as incredibly stupid.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1359722395 #ygrps-yiv-1359722395ygrps-yiv-1222589954 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Well Brent, it is never right to ridicule anyone, but lets look at this in light of the recent bilge pitting thread.   Lets also suppose that some people are very cautious about when they tell other people what is safe, even if they know they could do it safely themselves with their own skill or experience.   We are only talking about things here that fall outside "accepted industry practices".    When one is super cautious, one merely has to recommend industry practices, or if it is not within "accepted industry practices", be 1000% sure what they say is completely idiot-proof.   It is easy to imagine, and fair to say, that not everyone might be 1000% convinced that everything Brent says is completely idiot-proof.   I am not even 100% certain, and I like Brent's ideas.     The last really big thing in boat hulls was fibreglass.  That was started 60 years ago (happy birthday to my boat) for yachts, and a little earlier for military craft that are getting shot at and may only be intended for one mission.   A whole lot of people started building them, when the liability and litigation climate was much better, and within 10 years some goofballs decided they could shave it thinner and thinner, and now we have glorious crap that will be unrecycleable waste in less than half the time of any properly built fibreglass hull.    But after 30 years, it had reached a nadir and an industry standard had been established.   That is a get-out-of-jail-free card for anyone who says it is acceptable to do it according to acceptable industry standards.    That is just one example of when an industry standard is crap.   Now Brent is talking about welding stainless to regular steel and exposing it to salt water outside the boat, in the hole.    Perhaps these posters imagined something like what Gary / Aguysailing had posted, except on the outside, 3 feet below the waterline were no idiot is ever going to find the problem, and even average cruisers might go 8 months between inspections in the cold season.  A leak that "suddenly" breaks through the paint on the inside before the stop-cock on a through-hull can be very disconcerting.   It might put one completely off metal boats if one arrived back to the boat to find it half full of water, you have to go wake up all sorts of people (because your engine is underwater and won't start) to help get it pumped out before the water pours into the cabin, then you find that a piece of stainless steel welded to the hull nearly sunk you.    A giant piece of plastic that simply cannot do any degradation quickly might look very inviting at that moment.   Lets give these "traditionalists" credit for at least having heard such a horror story at some point, and knee-jerk, they are afraid of what Brent posts.   I know, Brent is going to say a surprise leak at a stainless through-hull has simply never happened to an orgami under Brent's supervision.   That is the point though, has anyone else been as hands-on with helping building others boats as Brent?   Certainly not Bob.   Perhaps Bob is not the type to hurt himself with the first tool you pass him, but he still has to keep it either completely idiot-proof or within accepted standard practice or someone will sue him.   There are plenty of yahoos who have only a little more experience than Bob, and would recommend all sorts of half-baked short cuts to accepted industry standards if they were not challenged.   As an anonymous group with no follow-up, anything that is not industry-standard on metalboats has to get talked down.   Its just the ecology of its ecosystem.    That is before one starts adding factors like vested interest and livelihoods based on doing things like they were done before.   Origami boats is completely different.  Brent approves all members.   If the questions get too detailed, Brent recommends, buy my book, buy my plans.  Up until a few years ago, Brent went in-person to build sites.   Brent has the control over the forum to entertain non-industry standard things and keep people out of trouble.   If Brent detects that anyone of the type who might hurt themselves with the first tool they are handed is contemplating building an origami, he can tailor the message.   Not so on these other forums.    Maybe some of these people on other forums are such terrible welders, or have seen such terrible welders, or human welders who have made one mistake, or whatever it takes to cause what happened in Gary's boat, and that is why they are dead set on having no stainless in contact with seawater, especially underwater on the outside of the boat.   No doubt Brent will tell us the trick he has found that prevents all problems, like taking a tiny little brush and painting the inside of the stainless nipple 3 times more often, to make sure there is complete coverage, and add extra zincs so the rudder post and prop shaft do not suffer preferential corrosion because of this stainless.   I am not at all saying Brents methods are bad.   You just can't expect others to agree they are safe enough to be completely idiot-proof when it represents a deviation from more traditional practice.   Its all about CYA, the CYA of everyone else on these forums, as well as their empires, and livelihoods etc.   If it is traditional practice, it does not matter how stupid it is, people who are strictly cautious about what they recommend for others can say it is traditional practice and feel safe from complete idiots suing them.   If it is outside tradition practice, even if it has some serious benefits, like origami, the same people have to be cautious.  The internet being the internet, not all are diplomatic in their responses, surprise surprise.   Brent being Brent, pushes back, points out the obvious, but there is a little more added, something that adds nothing to the logic of Brent's point.   Brent might say something that might be strictly true from his point of view, like calling them dinosaurs with no real experience would be the least insulting label but in any case, it all sounds ad-hominem from the other end. I have read some threads that spiraled badly out of control.  Next thing you know it gets ugly, it goes back and forth and Brent gets banned.  The person wishing to argue for change has to use a little more honey, less vinager, it is just the way it is.   Lets all be grateful most of us live in countries where the secret police to not hunt down and disappear people like Brent who post things against accepted traditional practices.Its is honey, or just make the change and make them come to you -- that is working for Space-X.   For origami boats that would be making 10,000 Brent boats, so there are 2 in every port, that would be enough to create a standard.   People would still argue for and against Brent boats, nothing would really change, but more people would be on the FOR side of it.    Origami boats works because Brent is hands-on and keeps it real, and in the end if he says it, the buck stops with him.   I cannot imagine Brent and any other forum working out, long term, any more than I can see Richard Branson making a good employee.    Brent, have you ever considered writing another book where you update and include more of the details of the techniques, particularly since you are no longer travelling to builds ?    I know it is impossible to make everything idiot-proof, but it is your opportunity to create an industry standard by explaining the details about how (what techniques) and why your deviations work, and what is gained in doing it your way.   Concise explanations, without rhetoric, of why the alternative industry standards are inferior, for what clearly defined classes of construction would be useful also.   Keep it positive, and don't leave out the "softer" advantages.   Like the psychological benefits of origami for a home builder and their partner -- seeing something that looks like a boat pretty quickly -- have to be acknowledged.   One has to fairly acknowledge, from there on, that Brent has quite a lot of suggestions on systems that can save money, but if people want to fit out like other yachts with more turn-key, new options, the costs from that point on will be pretty much the same regardless of the methods.   There should be a giant chapter about buying an existing origami boat and another chapter about regular and long term maintenance for an existing origami.   Realistically portraying the ongoing maintenance out to 60 years or something will clearly set an origami apart from the options.   This will contribute to the demand for, and price for existing origami boats, and the result is more people will see the value in building one of their own.   An entire chapter on the fin verses a pair of bilge keels is really important too.  Give pros and cons both ways -- how each impact things like ease of maintenance below the water line, the costs, resale price, and these things might be region specific.   Then an entire chapter on cruising, what options - rig and systems, past owners have included for what trips.   An entire section on the options for the Northwest Passage and Cape Horn would be good -- there are not many production fibreglass boats that will be able to follow you there -- you might name a few that in your humble opinion might make it -- let the readers look up the price tag on those antarctic-ready production boats and choke on the price.   Keep the message positive.  Include a brief history, as best you know it of every origami built -- tell the good features of each.   Call them the pioneer class of origami boats, and the new book reflects all of the things learned since.   That is a great selling point.   Have an entire section in the money saving systems chapter devoted to great ideas contributed by the pioneers of origami building.  There are so many positive messages that people will feel good to read that might be included in the book.   If people feel good reading a book, they will talk about it, loan it and recommend it.      Brent, there is so much you have to contribute and an updated and expanded book is a far better forum to do it.   Make it the must-have book for every dreamer, if you have to, to sell enough to cover printing costs and get some market penetration.   Get an ISBN number so it gets bought up by every library that aspires to have a "complete" collection.          I think an updated book is the best place to get all your ideas down.  Now is the perfect time to start.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 7:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : That was where they ridiculed me for mentioning that welded in stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls  had given me zero problem in over 40 years. They  advocated a complex combination of mild steel pipe flanges, bolts, goop, etc ending in a stainless nipple . Of all the jeering "Experts " there, only one had built any steel boats, and he had only limited coastal cruising experience.The rest had almost zero steel boat experience, (Just  like Bob Perry)When asked about how much steel boat experience they had, only one responded with any . One named Troy said "I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts, so I know  a lot about steel boat building.!"  They attacked every post I made.One Aussie named Pete Wiley, now masquerading under the childish alias FKT on Sailing Anarchy, has taken many years building a Colvin , to get to where my clients get to in a couple of weeks, leaving him with  a cramped, slow,  tender, "collection of closets" type  boat .Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ( Schadenfreude!)Most of these sites  ban anyone who has any actual hands on steel boat experience, leaving them as " plastic boat owners only,  advice on steel boats!"I have heard that Perry threatened to sue the moderators on Sailing Anarchy, if they didn't delete all my posts.Seems the moderators there may be also liable for the slander they have enabled against me, and copyright infringement , as well as criminal charges.This is one of only couple of sites on which accurate steel boat info is available, from those who know what we are talking about, from first hand experience, and, by far ,the most active. I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive.   They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat.   Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all.  When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak,  they only upped their attacks.  Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter.   There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks.   It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense.   I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat.| 34437|34381|2017-10-22 18:26:51|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| OK, so flipping that in reverse, and assuming Brent is 100% right, if Gary's problem was the stainless, then a complete solution is welding down a stud and bolting on a puck zinc inside the boat at the lowest point?    Electrons have no idea if they are inside or outside the boat, so, they should not change their behaviour, right?   It follows that making sure the stud is still tight is a regular maintenance thing. Are we all 100% in agreement with that?  Or are we still going to double-check our prop and rudder shafts, just in case the inconceivable occurs because of some befuddling confluence of factors that no one could foresee or explain adequately after the fact ? Yes, I have seen some brittle plastic through hulls.... completely useless, I would not use them in the bottom of a bucket as a sink.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 5:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     Industry standards and rules forbid progress, innovation and thinking outside the box. They  tend to keep things in the stone age of development and progress,and attack anyone trying to find a better way,sometimes decades after their better way has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. They  make absolutely no consideration of economics and time, the two biggest hurdles most wannabe cruisers face, assuming all have unlimited funds and time, a miscalculation which makes their decrees grossly irrelevant and inaccurate, in terms of the average cruiser . Any accountant will tell you,  if you get one factor wrong, then every calculation from that point on is inaccurate,and thus,irrelevant.  A friend bought a new Crealock 37 many years ago. Built like a brick  shit house ,very solid.After many years of cruising in her, she went to the shop, and was appalled at how much they had begun to skimp on the  structural,general  quality, and minimized things. That is what you get for their "years of experience" ( in learning how little  they could get away with!) When she asked about safety of their customers, they said "We don't care  about that ,all we are concerned about are profit margins!" Typical  of what happens with many stock ,mass produced boats!   (Professionally  built!) When stainless welded in thru hulls give zero problems over 40 or 50 years, no,   electrons don't suddenly, change their behavior, and start acting differently. That is as ludicrous as  Mike Johns claim that an origami boat design, which has survived decades of ocean cruising, including some severe torture tests ,with no serious structural problems of any kind , just may break in the first 4 hours, and are  not strong enough  ,not as strong as  plastic boats which have repeatedly broke up in minutes in the  same conditions, because the numbers say so. Yes, some of the origami boat critics are actually that loony, and have many just as loony people believing them.  I have seen plenty of bare stainless prop shafts giving zero electrolysis problems on steel boats, over decades.. Rarely are they ever painted. Paint doesn't stick very long to stainless. Critics of such,  accept aluminium sail drives with bronze props, in sea water full time, without question, or anchor winches with bronze gypsies on galvanized chain , and aluminium housings,  with stainless  shafts, with mild steel keys. I have never heard of any problems you describe, in over 40 years of steel boat building, even some built by some of the worst welders imaginable.I have slapped a plastic thru hull off with my hand, leaving a big hole in the boat. Even a bad weld is much  stronger than that. Thus extreme weakness in a plastic thru hull is an inevitability, where as a bad weld that weak is extremely unlikely . 1/4 inch of good weld on the entire thru hull is stronger. I have never advocated trying to keep paint inside a thru hull,  as that would have zero advantage ,as in over 40+ years, corrosion has not been a problem with stainless on mild steel ,ever. The zincs take care of that . What you describe is a mythical  problem, that doesn't happen in real life. That is the glaring difference  between theory and experience based reality.   No, people like Perry ,etc , will never be able to comprehend this difference, without hands on cruising,building and maintenance  experience, in the real world, outside their offices,  period! Given welding stainless thru hulls on has never caused a hint of corrosion, in over 40 years, it is  obvious Gary's problems are from the current fed to the pump  from his battery ,period! I have frequently  added to my book over the years. Watermaker, welder ,composting head ,furler improvements , stove,, etc, etc  have all been added to  the original version. The fact that people who lend them, almost always end up getting  them stolen , is an indicator of how popular they are,once someone sees the contents. People so incredibly stupid as to believe that which as worked well  for over 40 years, thru many extreme torture tests ,with zero structural  problems at sea,  ever, are not strong enough, and just may break in the first  4 hours, are of no interest to anyone but a shrink ,or someone who is just as incredibly stupid.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Well Brent, it is never right to ridicule anyone, but lets look at this in light of the recent bilge pitting thread.   Lets also suppose that some people are very cautious about when they tell other people what is safe, even if they know they could do it safely themselves with their own skill or experience.   We are only talking about things here that fall outside "accepted industry practices".    When one is super cautious, one merely has to recommend industry practices, or if it is not within "accepted industry practices", be 1000% sure what they say is completely idiot-proof.   It is easy to imagine, and fair to say, that not everyone might be 1000% convinced that everything Brent says is completely idiot-proof.   I am not even 100% certain, and I like Brent's ideas.      The last really big thing in boat hulls was fibreglass.  That was started 60 years ago (happy birthday to my boat) for yachts, and a little earlier for military craft that are getting shot at and may only be intended for one mission.   A whole lot of people started building them, when the liability and litigation climate was much better, and within 10 years some goofballs decided they could shave it thinner and thinner, and now we have glorious crap that will be unrecycleable waste in less than half the time of any properly built fibreglass hull.    But after 30 years, it had reached a nadir and an industry standard had been established.   That is a get-out-of-jail-free card for anyone who says it is acceptable to do it according to acceptable industry standards.     That is just one example of when an industry standard is crap.   Now Brent is talking about welding stainless to regular steel and exposing it to salt water outside the boat, in the hole.    Perhaps these posters imagined something like what Gary / Aguysailing had posted, except on the outside, 3 feet below the waterline were no idiot is ever going to find the problem, and even average cruisers might go 8 months between inspections in the cold season.  A leak that "suddenly" breaks through the paint on the inside before the stop-cock on a through-hull can be very disconcerting.   It might put one completely off metal boats if one arrived back to the boat to find it half full of water, you have to go wake up all sorts of people (because your engine is underwater and won't start) to help get it pumped out before the water pours into the cabin, then you find that a piece of stainless steel welded to the hull nearly sunk you.    A giant piece of plastic that simply cannot do any degradation quickly might look very inviting at that moment.   Lets give these "traditionalists" credit for at least having heard such a horror story at some point, and knee-jerk, they are afraid of what Brent posts.   I know, Brent is going to say a surprise leak at a stainless through-hull has simply never happened to an orgami under Brent's supervision.   That is the point though, has anyone else been as hands-on with helping building others boats as Brent?   Certainly not Bob.   Perhaps Bob is not the type to hurt himself with the first tool you pass him, but he still has to keep it either completely idiot-proof or within accepted standard practice or someone will sue him.   There are plenty of yahoos who have only a little more experience than Bob, and would recommend all sorts of half-baked short cuts to accepted industry standards if they were not challenged.   As an anonymous group with no follow-up, anything that is not industry-standard on metalboats has to get talked down.   Its just the ecology of its ecosystem.    That is before one starts adding factors like vested interest and livelihoods based on doing things like they were done before.   Origami boats is completely different.  Brent approves all members.   If the questions get too detailed, Brent recommends, buy my book, buy my plans.  Up until a few years ago, Brent went in-person to build sites.   Brent has the control over the forum to entertain non-industry standard things and keep people out of trouble.   If Brent detects that anyone of the type who might hurt themselves with the first tool they are handed is contemplating building an origami, he can tailor the message.   Not so on these other forums.    Maybe some of these people on other forums are such terrible welders, or have seen such terrible welders, or human welders who have made one mistake, or whatever it takes to cause what happened in Gary's boat, and that is why they are dead set on having no stainless in contact with seawater, especially underwater on the outside of the boat.   No doubt Brent will tell us the trick he has found that prevents all problems, like taking a tiny little brush and painting the inside of the stainless nipple 3 times more often, to make sure there is complete coverage, and add extra zincs so the rudder post and prop shaft do not suffer preferential corrosion because of this stainless.   I am not at all saying Brents methods are bad.   You just can't expect others to agree they are safe enough to be completely idiot-proof when it represents a deviation from more traditional practice.   Its all about CYA, the CYA of everyone else on these forums, as well as their empires, and livelihoods etc.   If it is traditional practice, it does not matter how stupid it is, people who are strictly cautious about what they recommend for others can say it is traditional practice and feel safe from complete idiots suing them.   If it is outside tradition practice, even if it has some serious benefits, like origami, the same people have to be cautious.  The internet being the internet, not all are diplomatic in their responses, surprise surprise.   Brent being Brent, pushes back, points out the obvious, but there is a little more added, something that adds nothing to the logic of Brent's point.   Brent might say something that might be strictly true from his point of view, like calling them dinosaurs with no real experience would be the least insulting label but in any case, it all sounds ad-hominem from the other end.  I have read some threads that spiraled badly out of control.  Next thing you know it gets ugly, it goes back and forth and Brent gets banned.  The person wishing to argue for change has to use a little more honey, less vinager, it is just the way it is.   Lets all be grateful most of us live in countries where the secret police to not hunt down and disappear people like Brent who post things against accepted traditional practices. Its is honey, or just make the change and make them come to you -- that is working for Space-X.   For origami boats that would be making 10,000 Brent boats, so there are 2 in every port, that would be enough to create a standard.   People would still argue for and against Brent boats, nothing would really change, but more people would be on the FOR side of it.    Origami boats works because Brent is hands-on and keeps it real, and in the end if he says it, the buck stops with him.   I cannot imagine Brent and any other forum working out, long term, any more than I can see Richard Branson making a good employee.     Brent, have you ever considered writing another book where you update and include more of the details of the techniques, particularly since you are no longer travelling to builds ?    I know it is impossible to make everything idiot-proof, but it is your opportunity to create an industry standard by explaining the details about how (what techniques) and why your deviations work, and what is gained in doing it your way.   Concise explanations, without rhetoric, of why the alternative industry standards are inferior, for what clearly defined classes of construction would be useful also.   Keep it positive, and don't leave out the "softer" advantages.   Like the psychological benefits of origami for a home builder and their partner -- seeing something that looks like a boat pretty quickly -- have to be acknowledged.   One has to fairly acknowledge, from there on, that Brent has quite a lot of suggestions on systems that can save money, but if people want to fit out like other yachts with more turn-key, new options, the costs from that point on will be pretty much the same regardless of the methods.   There should be a giant chapter about buying an existing origami boat and another chapter about regular and long term maintenance for an existing origami.   Realistically portraying the ongoing maintenance out to 60 years or something will clearly set an origami apart from the options.   This will contribute to the demand for, and price for existing origami boats, and the result is more people will see the value in building one of their own.   An entire chapter on the fin verses a pair of bilge keels is really important too.  Give pros and cons both ways -- how each impact things like ease of maintenance below the water line, the costs, resale price, and these things might be region specific.   Then an entire chapter on cruising, what options - rig and systems, past owners have included for what trips.   An entire section on the options for the Northwest Passage and Cape Horn would be good -- there are not many production fibreglass boats that will be able to follow you there -- you might name a few that in your humble opinion might make it -- let the readers look up the price tag on those antarctic-ready production boats and choke on the price.   Keep the message positive.  Include a brief history, as best you know it of every origami built -- tell the good features of each.   Call them the pioneer class of origami boats, and the new book reflects all of the things learned since.   That is a great selling point.   Have an entire section in the money saving systems chapter devoted to great ideas contributed by the pioneers of origami building.  There are so many positive messages that people will feel good to read that might be included in the book.   If people feel good reading a book, they will talk about it, loan it and recommend it.      Brent, there is so much you have to contribute and an updated and expanded book is a far better forum to do it.   Make it the must-have book for every dreamer, if you have to, to sell enough to cover printing costs and get some market penetration.   Get an ISBN number so it gets bought up by every library that aspires to have a "complete" collection.          I think an updated book is the best place to get all your ideas down.  Now is the perfect time to start.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 7:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : That was where they ridiculed me for mentioning that welded in stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls  had given me zero problem in over 40 years. They  advocated a complex combination of mild steel pipe flanges, bolts, goop, etc ending in a stainless nipple .  Of all the jeering "Experts " there, only one had built any steel boats, and he had only limited coastal cruising experience. The rest had almost zero steel boat experience, (Just  like Bob Perry) When asked about how much steel boat experience they had, only one responded with any . One named Troy said "I have welded up a lot of steel fence posts, so I know  a lot about steel boat building.!"   They attacked every post I made.One Aussie named Pete Wiley, now masquerading under the childish alias FKT on Sailing Anarchy, has taken many years building a Colvin , to get to where my clients get to in a couple of weeks, leaving him with  a cramped, slow,  tender, "collection of closets" type  boat . Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ( Schadenfreude!) Most of these sites  ban anyone who has any actual hands on steel boat experience, leaving them as " plastic boat owners only,  advice on steel boats!" I have heard that Perry threatened to sue the moderators on Sailing Anarchy, if they didn't delete all my posts. Seems the moderators there may be also liable for the slander they have enabled against me, and copyright infringement , as well as criminal charges. This is one of only couple of sites on which accurate steel boat info is available, from those who know what we are talking about, from first hand experience, and, by far ,the most active. I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive.   They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat.   Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all.  When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak,  they only upped their attacks.  Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter.   There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks.   It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense.   I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat. | 34438|34381|2017-10-23 10:38:59|jpronk1|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|I'm with you 100% Matt. Add a zinc to the bilge, touch up paint it and then keep checking it. James Sent from my iPhone| 34439|34381|2017-10-23 15:44:05|brentswain38|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I like to use stainless bolts welded to the hull, and a bit of stainless weld around the bolt holes ,in the steel  strap, to give you a stainless on stainless contact, with little chance of rust eliminating the contact.However, a welded down Z3 in the bilge , is going to  last a hell of a long  time.An inside zinc protects only the inside of a hull, outside zincs protect only the outside. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'm with you 100% Matt. Add a zinc to the bilge, touch up paint it and then keep checking it. James Sent from my iPhone| 34440|34381|2017-10-23 16:48:43|prairiemaidca|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|Does the zinc have to be in liquid to actually work as a sacrifice?  I don't have anything in my bilge but my pump and switch are mounted to a high density plastic piece so the is no contact with the metal of the boat.  Typically my bilge (33 litres) is very very dry and usual maintenance is more dusting than anything else.  Martin... Prairie Maid..| 34441|34381|2017-10-23 17:04:42|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| Yes zincs have to be in contact with liquid to work, and would only prevent rust on things in the puddle, in electrical contact with the hull.  So if the bilge is dry, nothing.  A zinc will never prevent rust under foam well above the puddle, nor on a nut that falls in the puddle and sits on paint. The Z3 Brent mentioned is huge.   I would prefer a puck an inch thick, 3 inches in diameter, a millimeter off the hull, so a cup of water contacts it, and one nut and I can look under it, and it is not another big Snaggy thing in my bilge in the way. Matt Get Outlook for Android From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 4:48:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     Does the zinc have to be in liquid to actually work as a sacrifice?  I don't have anything in my bilge but my pump and switch are mounted to a high density plastic piece so the is no contact with the metal of the boat.  Typically my bilge (33 litres) is very very dry and usual maintenance is more dusting than anything else.   Martin... Prairie Maid.. | 34442|34381|2017-10-23 22:38:57|aguysailing|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|I believe so... known as an electrolyte.P.S.... envious about your dry bilge.  What are you using for shaft seal?  Thanks| 34443|34381|2017-10-23 23:18:47|prairiemaidca|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|I have been using one of the PSS shaft seals.  Compression fit of a well machined plastic like material against a stainless piece, with the rubber bellows suppling the spring action to hold them together.  Works very well you just have to make sure you have your vent hose up and secured and you bleed the air out of the shaft tube if you take the boat out of the water.  I ran my foam down as far as the last stringers so the only area in the boat that is not foamed is the engine compartment and the bit of exposed hull along the sides of the keel where it sticks up into the boat and forms the top edges of the water and fuel tank.  Access to those areas is by removing a strip of the cabin floor on either side to clean and inspect.  The whole floor in the boat can be removed to access the tops of the fuel and water tanks if you need to get inside them other than using the inspection plates.  The bilge is a 33 litre compartment between the water tank and fuel compartments of the fin keel.  I have a 3/4 in piece of high density plastic that has some 3/4 in legs on the bottom of it and many holes drilled through it.  The pump and switch along with the manual bilge pickup are all attached to it.  I'm sure if I was a live aboard in the winter on our west coast I'd see a bit more condensation finding it's way in the bilge.  I've stayed on board for a few weeks in the dead of west coast winter and there was a little bit that I could wipe out with a cloth.  Martin..  Prairie Maid...| 34444|34381|2017-10-24 01:37:23|aguysailing|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|... thanks PMGary| 34445|34381|2017-10-24 02:07:57|opuspaul|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|I have had zero problems with my bilge sump in 25 years.  Everything is mounted to plastic cutting board.   If there are no SS or metal pieces fallen in the bilge and you keep it relativily clean,  I don't see the point of having any zincs.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does the zinc have to be in liquid to actually work as a sacrifice?  I don't have anything in my bilge but my pump and switch are mounted to a high density plastic piece so the is no contact with the metal of the boat.  Typically my bilge (33 litres) is very very dry and usual maintenance is more dusting than anything else.  Martin... Prairie Maid..| 34446|34381|2017-10-24 10:03:26|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| With all the welding one does on an origami, and all the things one buys to put on it.... One more stud at the bottom of the bilge and a $20 zinc, even if it dry and dusty all its life is probably the smallest amount of effort and money one invests "just in case".   Checking  that zinc would make me feel a lot better about rust in places maybe I cannot see as easily.  I sure would think hard about welding it in after I already had all the coatings perfect knowing I would have to redo a bit. But everyones' priorities are their own. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 02:08 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I have had zero problems with my bilge sump in 25 years.  Everything is mounted to plastic cutting board.   If there are no SS or metal pieces fallen in the bilge and you keep it relativily clean,  I don't see the point of having any zincs. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Does the zinc have to be in liquid to actually work as a sacrifice?  I don't have anything in my bilge but my pump and switch are mounted to a high density plastic piece so the is no contact with the metal of the boat.  Typically my bilge (33 litres) is very very dry and usual maintenance is more dusting than anything else.   Martin... Prairie Maid.. | 34447|34381|2017-10-24 14:57:11|aguysailing|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|Is it necessary to weld it in?  How about attaching to plastic cutting board material and then lashing the board piece down.  I also will be keeping that bilge dry as best I can.| 34448|34381|2017-10-24 15:09:03|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| If you are talking about a zinc: >Is it necessary to weld it in? The answer is not strictly.   The zinc has to be in intimate contact with water and electrically connected to the hull.   Welding is pretty certain and the zinc protects the weld (the narrowest cross-section of the connection) from breaking down and the electrical connection being broken.   I was saying weld a stud to the hull and then put a zinc on the stud and tighten a nut and and washer on it.  Think battery terminal though, all corrosion has to be scraped clean on the contact surface of the zinc, both sides of the washer, the contact side of the nut and in the threads of the stud, then you will have good electrical contact.   I was thinking, for those who do not want to weld to the hull after painting, if one bolted a zinc to the end of a battery cable and bolted the other end through a hole in a flange that is part of the hull further up, and just let the zinc lay in the bilge, I wonder if that would work?    Worst case, the battery cable has to be cleaned from time to time to make sure the connection stays good, and the bolt at both ends kept uncorroded and tight at all times.   One could grab the cable and pull the zinc up out of the bilge to look at it without even unbolting it.         Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 2:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     Is it necessary to weld it in?  How about attaching to plastic cutting board material and then lashing the board piece down.  I also will be keeping that bilge dry as best I can. | 34449|34381|2017-10-24 16:25:50|opuspaul|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|In theory, a heavy wire might work but now you are introducing another metal in the form of the conductor which might be copper.    If there are no disimilar metals laying in bilge water, what is adding a zinc really protecting you against?   Mild steel will rust but it doesn't galvanically corrode to itself.   Zinc undercoat might leach out a bit and bubble the paint if it is damaged.  A zinc might help stop the rust if there are any bare spots or  damaged paint.If I had a good paint job and no dissimilar metals,  I wouldn't bother adding the zinc.| 34450|34381|2017-10-24 16:40:49|prairiemaidca|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|I would think if the Zinc has good connection to part of the hull it could be attached to the plastic to stop it from sliding around and banging out bits of paint.  It shouldn't matter if it's not touching the metal in the bilge and if and when it's immersed in liquid it should perform the same I would think.  I totally agree that the connections at zinc and hull should be checked and cleaned as needed.  Wouldn't think you would need a very heavy gauge wire for that connection, just good marine grade connectors and shrink wrap.  Martin... Prairie Maid...| 34451|34381|2017-10-24 17:48:50|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| Ok, my understanding of dissimilar metals is that if one has a junction AB in water, that is a problem.  Current flows from A to B at the connection, then from B to the water and from the water to A, making a circuit.   Now one of the metals can corrode.   In the case of SZ -- steel zinc, the zinc corrodes and saves the steel.   If one has steel-copper-zinc, it is as though the copper is not there provided it is less reactive than steel or zinc.   Yes, the entire boat will corrode to save the copper, but only after the zinc is all gone.   ... I think ... all other things being equal.     My understanding is, the metals will be lost in descending order on this table, and so long as you have zinc left, and good connection between the zinc and what it is protecting, so the current can flow to let the zinc be eaten, and the zinc should act as protection. https://kaiserscience.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/metal-reactivities-series-2.jpg Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 4:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     In theory, a heavy wire might work but now you are introducing another metal in the form of the conductor which might be copper.    If there are no disimilar metals laying in bilge water, what is adding a zinc really protecting you against?   Mild steel will rust but it doesn't galvanically corrode to itself.   Zinc undercoat might leach out a bit and bubble the paint if it is damaged.  A zinc might help stop the rust if there are any bare spots or  damaged paint. If I had a good paint job and no dissimilar metals,  I wouldn't bother adding the zinc. | 34452|34381|2017-10-24 17:51:46|Matt Malone|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made| >I would think if the Zinc has good connection to part of the >hull it could be attached to the plastic to stop it from sliding >around and banging out bits of paint. Good electrical connection, by say a wire, yes.   Just putting zinc in the bilge on a piece of plastic will do nothing if it is not very firmly electrically connected to the hull also.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 4:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Home made vs Custom made or hand made     I would think if the Zinc has good connection to part of the hull it could be attached to the plastic to stop it from sliding around and banging out bits of paint.  It shouldn't matter if it's not touching the metal in the bilge and if and when it's immersed in liquid it should perform the same I would think.  I totally agree that the connections at zinc and hull should be checked and cleaned as needed.  Wouldn't think you would need a very heavy gauge wire for that connection, just good marine grade connectors and shrink wrap.   Martin... Prairie Maid... | 34453|34381|2017-10-26 19:35:22|brentswain38|Re: Home made vs Custom made or hand made|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1372488439 #ygrps-yiv-1372488439ygrps-yiv-851407790 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Yes, that would work.I was thinking, for those who do not want to weld to the hull after painting, if one bolted a zinc to the end of a battery cable and bolted the other end through a hole in a flange that is part of the hull further up, and just let the zinc lay in the bilge, I wonder if that would work?    Worst case, the battery cable has to be cleaned from time to time to make sure the connection stays good, and the bolt at both ends kept uncorroded and tight at all times.   One could grab the cable and pull the zinc up out of the bilge to look at it without even unbolting it.         Matt | 34454|34381|2017-10-27 14:02:10|Matt Malone|Sharks Attack Hull ?| We have all read Moby Dick, and real accounts where whales attacked and damaged or sunk whaling boats.   The fact that whales are intelligent and social creatures makes that entirely unsurprising that they would eventually put two and two together and act out of anger.   I have even heard/read one Sea Shepard account of current Japanese whaling practices that exploits the protective nature of the members of the pod -- it is alleged they take a small female first and drag the body beside the boat to enrage the others and bring them in for the kill.   That may be highly biased or even inaccurate, don't know. This however is new to me ...  If sharks ever learn this tactic, that would be a problem.   In this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lost-at-sea-women-dogs-1.4374634 A group of sharks attacked their boat one night, and a single shark returned a day later, she said.  "We actually thought it was lights out… they were horrific," Appel said. "We were just incredibly lucky that our hull was strong enough to withstand the onslaught." Has anyone heard of sharks attacking a boat with the aim of sinking it?   Sharks seem pretty "dumb", acting only reflexively.   If people think this was not a strategy, what do they think set them off?     Matt | 34455|34381|2017-10-27 15:50:55|opuspaul|Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?|After reading about them being lost at sea for months and seeing a sail furled on the mast, I wouldn't believe anything they say.  They are either crazy or stupid.....I suspect a bit of both.  People like that give all sailors a bad name.Anyway, Bill King suspected his boat was hit by a great white shark off South Africa in the Golden Globe Round the World race in his yacht Galway Blazer II.  It put a large hole in the yacht.   There are a few videos of him on youtube.  Interesting guy.  His book "Adventure in Depth" is a good read.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_King_(Royal_Navy_officer)| 34456|34381|2017-10-27 16:12:18|Matt Malone|Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?| Yeah, I had questions about certain aspects of the story too.  There seemed both plenty of mast and sail to do something with. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 27, 15:51 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sharks Attack Hull ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   After reading about them being lost at sea for months and seeing a sail furled on the mast, I wouldn't believe anything they say.  They are either crazy or stupid.....I suspect a bit of both.  People like that give all sailors a bad name. Anyway, Bill King suspected his boat was hit by a great white shark off South Africa in the Golden Globe Round the World race in his yacht Galway Blazer II.  It put a large hole in the yacht.   There are a few videos of him on youtube.  Interesting guy.  His book "Adventure in Depth" is a good read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_King_(Royal_Navy_officer) | 34457|34381|2017-10-28 18:14:19|opuspaul|Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?|They are absolutely full of sh@t....their story is so bad they must not know anything about sailing or even know that there is such a thing as the internet and people can check their story.   Force 11 storm the first night leaving Hawaii?   Maybe 11 knots.   10 knot currents?   Attacked by tiger sharks who were watching them for days?  Devil's triangle?  There is a video where they talk of 40 to 50 foot sharks that broke up another boat and they sailed through the wreckage.  Give me a break.  Maybe instead of a years supply of food they had a year's supply of drugs?   They should be ashamed of themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZaa5hJSJIo&feature=youtu.behttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMJI6e60RswAnyway, if you look at the photos here you see a guy up the mast and there are mast steps.  Not putting sails up is really inexcusable.  The growth half way up the topsides means they were rolling a lot so I suspect they spent most of their time drifting with little or no sail up.  They were found 900 miles SE of Japan yet they had headed for Tahiti arrive in Kiribati and then had got almost to the cook islands???   Does not compute.   Even if the mast track was broken and they couldn't sail to windward, they could still fly a sail from the rigging.  There are heaps of islands where they went.  A boat that big should make 2 or 3 knots with only a small handkerchief of a sail up yet they drifted for 98 days towards Japan?   In trade winds, you would probably make 4 knots.   2 knots for 98 days would probably get you to Australia.  This whole thing is probably a scam to get attention.  They will probably sell their story for tens of thousands of dollars now, appear on "Ellen" or "The View" and be hailed as heroes and end up on a book tour.  Netflix movie coming soon.   What a gong show.   Is there an award for worst sailor of the year?http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/36694284/after-months-lost-at-sea-a-pair-of-hawaii-women-and-their-dogs-are-finally-rescuedhttps://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-sailors-and-their-dogs-rescued-after-months-adrift-at-sea/For those with the stomach for it, there are some amusing comments here:http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/194198-two-sailors-and-dogs-rescued-after-5-months/| 34458|34381|2017-10-28 19:22:34|brentswain38|Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?|Last time I ran into Terry Jacks, in Haida Gwai, he told me about a great white which hit his power boat, 'Seasons in  the Sun" while crossing Hecate Strait . He said, after hauling her out for  a checkup, he found  the gel coat along her bottom was worn thru in places. Fisheries said his was not the only report of that shark . However, after one bite, and finding it was not soft, nor tasty, I doubt any shark would try a second bite.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :After reading about them being lost at sea for months and seeing a sail furled on the mast, I wouldn't believe anything they say.  They are either crazy or stupid.....I suspect a bit of both.  People like that give all sailors a bad name.Anyway, Bill King suspected his boat was hit by a great white shark off South Africa in the Golden Globe Round the World race in his yacht Galway Blazer II.  It put a large hole in the yacht.   There are a few videos of him on youtube.  Interesting guy.  His book "Adventure in Depth" is a good read.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_King_(Royal_Navy_officer)| 34459|34459|2017-10-30 15:58:28|prairiemaidca|Dual Alternators?|Has anyone had any experience with running dual alternators on their engines.  With the dry exhaust I don't use the exhaust cooling water pump that was on my Isuzu 4LE1 and was kicking around the idea of having a second alt. in that space to shorten run time for charging.      I had a good look at the video of the adrift sailors and their dogs, I agree that looks very strange in deed.  A boat with rigging and sails still upright and not able to set something up to propel the boat, even if it was only a sail using a third of the rig.  Something smells there!  Martin..  Prairie Maid.  | 34460|34459|2017-10-30 16:40:12|opuspaul|Re: Dual Alternators?|I run dual alternators.  One alternator is only 20 amps.  It is a small Hitachi alternator with internal regulator that came with the engine.  All it does is charge a small automotive start battery and the engine instruments so you don't need much.  The other alternator is ex junk yard 100 amps and used for the much larger house batteries with an external regulator.   There is no connection between the two electrical systems other than a ground.  It is a simple system that works well without using any high amp battery master switches.  I can't accidently run the start battery down since it is totally isolated from the rest of the boat.  If it ever went dead, I can just use regular jumper cables to the house battery to start the engine.  In over 20 years, I have never had to do it. You can run two alternators into one battery bank but I wouldn't recommend it unless you use alternator regulators with a dual feature.  These kind of special regulators can be very expensive.http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289948%7C2289953&id=2680099---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has anyone had any experience with running dual alternators on their engines.  With the dry exhaust I don't use the exhaust cooling water pump that was on my Isuzu 4LE1 and was kicking around the idea of having a second alt. in that space to shorten run time for charging.      I had a good look at the video of the adrift sailors and their dogs, I agree that looks very strange in deed.  A boat with rigging and sails still upright and not able to set something up to propel the boat, even if it was only a sail using a third of the rig.  Something smells there!  Martin..  Prairie Maid.  | 34461|34381|2017-10-30 17:35:39|Matt Malone|Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?| I watched the longer interview, and call-in radio interview. She hired a rigger, the rig, in particular a spreader broke.  This loosened the rug and she did not know how to repair it.  They did sail, everywhere, kiribati, next island down, cook islands, turned around. So the floating adrift for 5 months part of the story was inaccurate.  Not everyone can be a rig specialist I guess, but ones failings in one area have to be made up for by strengths in another area.   She seem to have no strengths, particularly in strategy and navigation with a boat that could sail at 4-5 knots she said and with working electronics and food and water. Her companion had never been in a boat before, ever. The lady who owned the boat may have been afraid to climb the mast for a number of reasons, perhaps including that an accident would leave her companion with no one to sail the boat, and two hungry dogs.  Again, many possible solutions, each requiring a little more that the boat owner had.    A fully trained companion would have been a big help.  At least a few more mastered skills I think would be required too. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 6:14:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?     They are absolutely full of sh@t....their story is so bad they must not know anything about sailing or even know that there is such a thing as the internet and people can check their story.   Force 11 storm the first night leaving Hawaii?   Maybe 11 knots.   10 knot currents?   Attacked by tiger sharks who were watching them for days?  Devil's triangle?  There is a video where they talk of 40 to 50 foot sharks that broke up another boat and they sailed through the wreckage.  Give me a break.  Maybe instead of a years supply of food they had a year's supply of drugs?   They should be ashamed of themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZaa5hJSJIo&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMJI6e60Rsw Anyway, if you look at the photos here you see a guy up the mast and there are mast steps.  Not putting sails up is really inexcusable.  The growth half way up the topsides means they were rolling a lot so I suspect they spent most of their time drifting with little or no sail up.  They were found 900 miles SE of Japan yet they had headed for Tahiti arrive in Kiribati and then had got almost to the cook islands???   Does not compute.   Even if the mast track was broken and they couldn't sail to windward, they could still fly a sail from the rigging.  There are heaps of islands where they went.  A boat that big should make 2 or 3 knots with only a small handkerchief of a sail up yet they drifted for 98 days towards Japan?   In trade winds, you would probably make 4 knots.   2 knots for 98 days would probably get you to Australia.  This whole thing is probably a scam to get attention.  They will probably sell their story for tens of thousands of dollars now, appear on "Ellen" or "The View" and be hailed as heroes and end up on a book tour.  Netflix movie coming soon.   What a gong show.   Is there an award for worst sailor of the year? http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/36694284/after-months-lost-at-sea-a-pair-of-hawaii-women-and-their-dogs-are-finally-rescued https://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-sailors-and-their-dogs-rescued-after-months-adrift-at-sea/ For those with the stomach for it, there are some amusing comments here: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/194198-two-sailors-and-dogs-rescued-after-5-months/ | 34462|34381|2017-10-30 20:34:22|opuspaul|Re: Sharks Attack Hull ?|You are much more diplomatic than me.  Many people sail offshore with little or no experience.  I think the real problem is that neither one of them had any common sense.    I think a fully trained crew after a few minutes of conversation with the skipper would have been smart enough not to go with such a space cadet.  I think they were probably a matched pair of lunatics who fed off each others stupidity.   Listening to the skipper talk gives me shivers.  I don't think she should really drive a car, let alone a boat.  I bet they spent most of their time meditating and thinking positive thoughts, wishing for unicorns to bring them unobtainium or fairy dust from the skies to save them rather than actually trying to fix the boat.| 34463|34459|2017-10-31 10:31:20|prairiemaidca|Re: Dual Alternators?|How large is your house battery?  I'm using 2 6volt golf cart batteries and a standard start battery for a diesel pick up truck with Isolation between them.  System works good for my power needs.  Alternator is a 105 amp.  Anything bigger would require a change in the belt system to accommodate it.  Martin... Prairie Maid.| 34464|34459|2017-10-31 14:48:08|opuspaul|Re: Dual Alternators?|I have 4 gold cart batteries.   The alternator is an old Mopar (Chrysler) 100A double belt model which are very robust.   I got mine from a junk yard for $25 and rebuilt it but I think they are getting harder to find.   The pulley is worn so I have to used a matched set of belts and keep them tight or they will start slipping and quickly burn up.  I have a custom pulley on the front of the engine which was made by Klassen Diesel when I bought the engine.  https://www.ebay.com/p/Mopar-100-Amp-Alternator-1974-82-4091460-CHRYSLER-Dodge-Plymouth-Worked-Well/1111271754---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How large is your house battery?  I'm using 2 6volt golf cart batteries and a standard start battery for a diesel pick up truck with Isolation between them.  System works good for my power needs.  Alternator is a 105 amp.  Anything bigger would require a change in the belt system to accommodate it.  Martin... Prairie Maid. | 34465|34459|2017-11-01 01:38:47|haidan|Re: Dual Alternators?|What kind of engine do you have paul, isuzu c240 4le1 ? And youve got a triple pulley on the crankshaft to run the two alternators? Or off a PTO| 34466|34459|2017-11-01 01:54:48|haidan|Re: Dual Alternators?|Martin I believe the 4LE1s have PTO fitting around and under where your regular alternator is mounted, theres a small 3-4" square plate and a splined socket inside, do a search for PTO 4LE1 isuzu and a bunch offittings come up you might be able to run a second alternator of that without changing much otherwise| 34467|34459|2017-11-01 14:05:31|opuspaul|Re: Dual Alternators?|Not that big.   I run a 35 hp Isuzu 3kr1 (otherwise known as QT-35).   I don't have a PTO....everything is off the front of the engine.  There are actually 4 belts possible on the stack of pulleys.   The first belt is for the 20A alternator.   The second is salt pump, the next two the 100A alternator and the last one is for a hydraulic pump which is intermittent use and gets flipped on and off when needed.  They are not all on one side of the engine so the belts pull against each other and don't side the crank too much.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What kind of engine do you have paul, isuzu c240 4le1 ? And youve got a triple pulley on the crankshaft to run the two alternators? Or off a PTO| 34468|34459|2017-11-02 15:48:56|brentswain38|Re: Dual Alternators?|I run an 80 amp alternator to my starting battery, which I  can  use a big Mexican  knife switch on , to connect to my house battery, a standard #27 RV battery. Using only LEDs and an AM radio, my power consumption is tiny.I rig a 100 amp car alternator outside my engine box, for welding and running power tools.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I run dual alternators.  One alternator is only 20 amps.  It is a small Hitachi alternator with internal regulator that came with the engine.  All it does is charge a small automotive start battery and the engine instruments so you don't need much.  The other alternator is ex junk yard 100 amps and used for the much larger house batteries with an external regulator.   There is no connection between the two electrical systems other than a ground.  It is a simple system that works well without using any high amp battery master switches.  I can't accidently run the start battery down since it is totally isolated from the rest of the boat.  If it ever went dead, I can just use regular jumper cables to the house battery to start the engine.  In over 20 years, I have never had to do it. You can run two alternators into one battery bank but I wouldn't recommend it unless you use alternator regulators with a dual feature.  These kind of special regulators can be very expensive.http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289948%7C2289953&id=2680099---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has anyone had any experience with running dual alternators on their engines.  With the dry exhaust I don't use the exhaust cooling water pump that was on my Isuzu 4LE1 and was kicking around the idea of having a second alt. in that space to shorten run time for charging.      I had a good look at the video of the adrift sailors and their dogs, I agree that looks very strange in deed.  A boat with rigging and sails still upright and not able to set something up to propel the boat, even if it was only a sail using a third of the rig.  Something smells there!  Martin..  Prairie Maid.  | 34469|34459|2017-11-04 19:34:18|rockrothwell|Re: Howdy Haiden|Hi Haiden, Don't know if you have had a chance to chat with Brent lately, but I bought Dove 2. She fell into my lap. She's up on the hard in Lund (Exellent yard, people, situation, everything!) If you are interested I have some work for you over the winter building a woodstove, Swain vane & a dunny base. In the spring I'd like to hire you for 3 to 4 weeks for some real fun, 90% being building of Swain gear. You will have a deck slave (me) & another bloke as needed to move things along. If your interested please either call me on 250 947 5178 or email at rockrothwell@... Thanks, Shane| 34470|34349|2017-11-10 17:01:38|brentswain38|Re: Anchorages/mooring fields|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When I asked the govt agent for a map of mooring bouy water leases, they said 'We don;t give water  leases for private mooring buoys!"No, local govt doesn't have any  legal jurisdiction over water leases.Without a water, lease you are free to use any one you please. Give it a full shot of full throttle, to make sure it is strong enough  to survive any wind you could motor into. A  friend used to  row around at night and cut them loose, which is what would probably happen, should they become confrontational about anyone using them.It's been years since I went sailing, but after finally getting my 36'BS finished (enough to go sailing). We headed out for the summer! After a month of sailing around the sunshine coast, we headed for the gulf islands and sailed into Silva Bay. Although Silva Bay was always a crowded anchorage, now it was jammed full of private mooring buoys. Seems the local government was able to evict the "derelict" live-aboards, and replace them with private mooring buoys for the local's "derelict" boats. Are they all legal mooring buoys? They certainly appeared to be, with names and permit numbers painted on the sides. Does the ministry just approve all requests? I can not understand how filling up a good anchorage with private mooring buoys can possibly be in the public interest. Tom    | 34471|34471|2017-11-13 11:32:37|prairiemaidca|Fire Port|     I was recently told I needed to have a fire port into my engine box.  I was wondering how many others have one.  I looked them up on line and they are basically a cheap looking plastic opening.  The other item I'm supposed to change is the type of fuel line I have inside the engine box.  I have just regular fuel line going from my filters/valves to steel nipples that enter the box and then more lines continuing to the engine.  Apparently the line in the engine box is supposed to be a more heat resistant one.  Anyone else doing that???  My other faux pas was that I used white teflon tape on my propane regulator out at the bottles, not the "special" yellow stuff.  Martin (Prairie Maid)| 34472|34471|2017-11-13 14:07:01|Larry Bishop|Re: Fire Port|Propane should also have a solenoid. -------- Original message -------- From: "losforsters@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-13-2017 10:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Fire Port I was recently told I needed to have a fire port into my engine box. I was wondering how many others have one. I looked them up on line and they are basically a cheap looking plastic opening. The other item I'm supposed to change is the type of fuel line I have inside the engine box. I have just regular fuel line going from my filters/valves to steel nipples that enter the box and then more lines continuing to the engine. Apparently the line in the engine box is supposed to be a more heat resistant one. Anyone else doing that??? My other faux pas was that I used white teflon tape on my propane regulator out at the bottles, not the "special" yellow stuff. Martin (Prairie Maid) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34473|34473|2017-11-13 19:39:17|Larry Bishop|Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Have been up and down the coast, checking out sailboats.Steel sailboats are of interest, despite potential corrosion problems.Ran across an advertisement in Craigslist for a Roberts 44:https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.htmlA knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to finish the sailboat.Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct?Surprised to see 60' steel sailboats, on par with concrete sailboat sizes.Origami sailboats also have better lines than the 50' steel sailboats around.Surprised and disappointed that aluminum is more expensive than steel, since aluminum should be more malleable, easier to shape, and although zinc would not protect aluminum from corrosion.What would be the cost of a 44' origami sailboat in steel or aluminum?| 34474|34471|2017-11-13 19:43:56|brentswain38|Re: Fire Port|Never heard of it. Let us  know what you find out.Heat resistant fuel  line sounds a good idea,Should be cheap ,as you wont need much.I  have found out that sealing a boat  airtight, puts any fire out  quickly.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :     I was recently told I needed to have a fire port into my engine box.  I was wondering how many others have one.  I looked them up on line and they are basically a cheap looking plastic opening.  The other item I'm supposed to change is the type of fuel line I have inside the engine box.  I have just regular fuel line going from my filters/valves to steel nipples that enter the box and then more lines continuing to the engine.  Apparently the line in the engine box is supposed to be a more heat resistant one.  Anyone else doing that???  My other faux pas was that I used white teflon tape on my propane regulator out at the bottles, not the "special" yellow stuff.  Martin (Prairie Maid)| 34475|34473|2017-11-13 19:46:35|brentswain38|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Couldn't open it for a look ,but for a resourceful builder-  scrounger , $70 K sounds high, given how much used gear is available these days.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Have been up and down the coast, checking out sailboats.Steel sailboats are of interest, despite potential corrosion problems.Ran across an advertisement in Craigslist for a Roberts 44:https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.htmlA knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to finish the sailboat.Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct?Surprised to see 60' steel sailboats, on par with concrete sailboat sizes.Origami sailboats also have better lines than the 50' steel sailboats around.Surprised and disappointed that aluminum is more expensive than steel, since aluminum should be more malleable, easier to shape, and although zinc would not protect aluminum from corrosion.What would be the cost of a 44' origami sailboat in steel or aluminum?| 34476|34471|2017-11-13 20:25:28|Alan Boucher|Re: Fire Port|As far as I know the fire port is just a way to enable shooting a fire extinguishing media into the engine compartment without opening a hatch which would introduce more air into the fire.  Obviously an automatic fire system is still a much better approach. On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Never heard of it. Let us  know what you find out.Heat resistant fuel  line sounds a good idea,Should be cheap ,as you wont need much.I  have found out that sealing a boat  airtight, puts any fire out  quickly.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :     I was recently told I needed to have a fire port into my engine box.  I was wondering how many others have one.  I looked them up on line and they are basically a cheap looking plastic opening.  The other item I'm supposed to change is the type of fuel line I have inside the engine box.  I have just regular fuel line going from my filters/valves to steel nipples that enter the box and then more lines continuing to the engine.  Apparently the line in the engine box is supposed to be a more heat resistant one.  Anyone else doing that???  My other faux pas was that I used white teflon tape on my propane regulator out at the bottles, not the "special" yellow stuff.  Martin (Prairie Maid) -- Al Boucher | 34477|34471|2017-11-13 20:37:10|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Never would have thought of a fire port.  That is a really good idea.  I would have one on the battery box too.  Sounds like a black iron pipe cap, close nipple and floor plate would be better.   It would be air tight and at least as fireproof as plywood box - quite good if reasonably sealed.  Just keep a work glove handy. Matt From: Alan Boucher alsthe1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 13, 20:25 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   As far as I know the fire port is just a way to enable shooting a fire extinguishing media into the engine compartment without opening a hatch which would introduce more air into the fire.  Obviously an automatic fire system is still a much better approach. On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Never heard of it. Let us  know what you find out. Heat resistant fuel  line sounds a good idea,Should be cheap ,as you wont need much. I  have found out that sealing a boat  airtight, puts any fire out  quickly. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :      I was recently told I needed to have a fire port into my engine box.  I was wondering how many others have one.  I looked them up on line and they are basically a cheap looking plastic opening.  The other item I'm supposed to change is the type of fuel line I have inside the engine box.  I have just regular fuel line going from my filters/valves to steel nipples that enter the box and then more lines continuing to the engine.  Apparently the line in the engine box is supposed to be a more heat resistant one.  Anyone else doing that???  My other faux pas was that I used white teflon tape on my propane regulator out at the bottles, not the "special" yellow stuff.   Martin (Prairie Maid) -- Al Boucher | 34478|34471|2017-11-14 12:09:37|rockrothwell|Re: Fire Port|Just got a solenoid, but if you leave that on it's the same differance isn't it. The gas man....it's still on. In looking at timers there is of course the high teck digital godsend from amarica but for $17 from home hardware a sping wound 110v manual biffy fan timer is more my style Just add a good bright red 12v LED in line as another reminder and for another couplabux an in line pressure guage is real cheap insurane. One of my earliest memories is of being held by the ankles by my Dad into the bildge of whatever boat he was working on. He was a marine broker so this happened quite a bit. They'd chuck him in the slammer these days, He also showed me through a boat that exploded. I was just little but damnit it stuck The inline pressure guage wasnt a sale, it's a given.| 34479|34473|2017-11-14 12:30:26|rockrothwell|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Brent's book would be a good start it'll simplify matters for you. Look at pretty much any tupperware, or anything else for that matter. Compare that to steel. So damned solid, it's stupid. Smug? Damned right. Lucky? Unbelievably so. But fact of the matter is that if your gonna spend that kind of money you can get sucked into the market bullshit & run around for the Yacht club chandlers & the bob perrys of this world. Or you can build or buy something simple that is so gawd damed solid there is just no question.None. And it's bone dry down below. with a fireplace. The call 'em Brentboats| 34480|34471|2017-11-14 13:09:06|prairiemaidca|Re: Fire Port|    On Prairie Maid we have the solenoid with the breaker in arms reach of the stove.  We also have the pressure gauge out at the bottles.  I also ran both the lines to the fireplace and the other to the stove separately from the bottles as per the yachting recommendations.  Unless an appliance is being used we always turn off the breaker, the same being for the pressure water as well.   When leaving the boat the bottle valve is also shut off.  I too have seen the aftermath of a gas explosion in a Tupperware boat.  It separated the coach roof from the deck.  Amazingly the owner who was inside survived the experience with very minor injuries.  Because of that I installed a propane detector and a CO2 as well.  So far the only bad experience on board our boat with propane has been the gumming up of the solenoid by a thick emulsion of smelly what ever they put in propane fuel.  I'm not an experienced mariner like some on this site but I do have a great respect for certain things.  1- the power of water and wind2- the danger of electricity3- the danger of any volatile material, especially in confined spaces.  Martin.... (Prairie Maid)| 34481|34471|2017-11-14 23:00:11|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| A fire port is a good idea, but do yourself a favor and make it big enough to accept the nozzle of a CO2 fire extinguisher, which is usually much larger than the nozzle on the more common powder-based dry-chemical fire extinguishers.  Then, also make sure you get a CO2 extinguisher and keep it near by.  If you discharge a powder fire extinguisher into the engine compartment with the engine running, the engine is going to be out of commission for a good long while.  However, if you have a diesel engine, there is fair chance you could get things working again even in a remote location after extinguishing the fire with a CO2 extinguisher. We also keep a fire blanket in the galley as another way to avoid needing to use a powder extinguisher.  A powder extinguisher discharged in an enclosed space will fill the air with fine powder that makes breathing all but impossible.  It will force you to retreat even if the fire doesn't.  Even after the fire is out, everything will be covered in corrosive powder (not ideal for a metal boat).  It is worth thinking about your fire fighting strategy. Darren On 17-11-13 05:37 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Never would have thought of a fire port.  That is a really good idea.  I would have one on the battery box too.  Sounds like a black iron pipe cap, close nipple and floor plate would be better.   It would be air tight and at least as fireproof as plywood box - quite good if reasonably sealed.  Just keep a work glove handy. Matt | 34482|34473|2017-11-15 07:28:04|Hannu Venermo|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Yes. No. It depends on real state vs ad. It depends on what You want to do, will You also work on it or hire it all out. 60 ft is very big in volume .. this means vastly more area for sandblasting, painting, insulation, firring. Longer wire runs, conduits, etc. Much bigger winches, blocks, tackle, etc. Much more expensive rigging. The offer is very attractive at 20k .. all the extra cost is already out of it. If the steel is sound and not rusted .. the hull is excellent value. I suspect that I might be able to make it run for 30k-50k parts cost with *no* interior or systems or rigging. This would be with sound through-hulls, driveline + engine, tackle and anchor and winch, very basic electricals, zero electronics. But sandblasted in/out, primed, painted, insulated, firred, all portlights fixed, all hatches fixed. Engine, transmission, tankage etc. Using all second hand bits and pieces and off-tint industrial marine paint. About 6 months work. Endless caveats and risks of high cost. Thrust bearings, mooring bitts, anchor chain, anchor, anchor winch etc. If portlights are bad, new ones are 10k+. Second-hand ones hard to find in the size, lots of work hours. On 13/11/2017 10:16, Larry Bishop larrybishop279@... [origamiboats] wrote: > A knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to > finish the sailboat. > Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct? -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 34483|34473|2017-11-15 08:02:35|rockrothwell|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|If your lookinng at steel boats one thing that threw me for a bit was Folkboats. There are a coupla different styles & sizes in steel some with nice lines, well appointed & fitted out beautifuly cheap too, mid 20's all looks lovely, but its a time bomb as they were not coated properly & justfoamed over, just like the man said also, rode stowage is below...salt stays after it's soaked in through the foam. attracts h2o & it stays wet right down the length of her breast. on others, the c'pit sole was not insulated so it sweats,, but the bildges below it (aft of the stuffing box) were foamed. so same effect aft with just a dribble of rust that ran out under the foam just above the stuffing box..... But it ain't no Brentboat| 34484|34471|2017-11-15 09:12:46|Alan Boucher|Re: Fire Port|Good point.  I seized a VW engine with a dry powder extinguisher.  Still better than burning the car and the shop. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:00 PM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   A fire port is a good idea, but do yourself a favor and make it big enough to accept the nozzle of a CO2 fire extinguisher, which is usually much larger than the nozzle on the more common powder-based dry-chemical fire extinguishers.  Then, also make sure you get a CO2 extinguisher and keep it near by.  If you discharge a powder fire extinguisher into the engine compartment with the engine running, the engine is going to be out of commission for a good long while.  However, if you have a diesel engine, there is fair chance you could get things working again even in a remote location after extinguishing the fire with a CO2 extinguisher. We also keep a fire blanket in the galley as another way to avoid needing to use a powder extinguisher.  A powder extinguisher discharged in an enclosed space will fill the air with fine powder that makes breathing all but impossible.  It will force you to retreat even if the fire doesn't.  Even after the fire is out, everything will be covered in corrosive powder (not ideal for a metal boat).  It is worth thinking about your fire fighting strategy. Darren On 17-11-13 05:37 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Never would have thought of a fire port.  That is a really good idea.  I would have one on the battery box too.  Sounds like a black iron pipe cap, close nipple and floor plate would be better.   It would be air tight and at least as fireproof as plywood box - quite good if reasonably sealed.  Just keep a work glove handy. Matt -- Al Boucher | 34485|34471|2017-11-15 09:30:52|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Absolutely agree with a CO2 extinguisher and a CO2 extinguisher-sized fire port.   I would not have thought of this either, thank you Darren.   With CO2, kill the power, hit it with the extinguisher.   It can be very effective and leave no residue at all.   CO2 removes the air and removes the heat from a fire.   The removing the air aspect might be extraordinarily effective in a relatively closed engine box.   Remember, too much extinguisher and the relatively closed box of the entire cabin might be filled with CO2 -- keep this in mind for safety and for next steps.   CO2 is not completely inert with respect to fire.   There is a reaction in carbonaceous (wood, paper) fires for sure, maybe oil and fuel fires too, I do not know of the top of my head: C + CO2 = 2 CO   - that produces carbon monoxide.   Fires not in completely open spaces, and not in stoves designed for complete burn also produce carbon monoxide because of the oxygen-poor environment: 2 C + O2 = 2 CO Water does the same thing: C +  H2O = CO + H2   -- both hydrogen and carbon monoxide Then if the fire is hot, the carbon monoxide (and hydrogen) moves out and burns in contact with the air: 2 CO + O2 = 2 CO2 2 H2 + O2 =  2 H2O Because carbon monoxide is a combustible gas.  That is the reaction going on in a catalytic converter, a high efficiency catalytic wood stove, or a high efficiency stove with a contact reburner.   That is also part of the reason one might see flames on a charcoal-only fire.    That means nearly all loss-fires produce carbon monoxide and worse chemicals too.   Spraying it with CO2 can increase the carbon monoxide.  This also means the air above a fire one is in the process of extinguishing / recently-extinguished may contain combustible gases.  This is part of the reason fires are so hard to extinguish -- these gases find a way to re-ignite where the extinguisher is not pointing.  One has to keep the seat of the fire smothered until it cannot reignite the gases.   The average extinguisher is generally good on a fire 1 foot in diameter, and is generally out-classed by a fire one meter in diameter.   Keep all of this in mind in extinguishing, and for safety and next steps.   Dry chemical is mono-ammonium phosphate, mainly.   It is slightly corrosive, I would not wait more than a day to clean it up from steel, an hour would be better.   I have no idea what it might do to all of the important and fancy coatings in a boat -- maybe nothing -- maybe it would stick and stain.   Machinery with air vents, like electric motors, alternators and electronics are the biggest problem.   I have seen things like this cleaned, but it is not easy. Provided the power is off, even a flooding fresh water hose with a fire sprayer might cause less immediate damage than dry chemical would, by the time you can get it out of everything.   Obviously electrical items cannot be re-energized while they are wet.    Once they are wet, flooding them with more clean fresh water cannot harm them, and it may help them.   Really. Household dust, even in-land, contain salts -- it is these salts along with moisture in the air that limits the life of electrical equipment by corrosion.   For typical residential conditions, this is typically not a problem for decades.  There are salt crystals in the air in a "salt-water" environment, and the salts build up in equipment -- everywhere the air goes.   A marine environment is always high-humidity, so, this is the reason nothing lasts as long in the marine environment than it does in-land.   It corrodes from the inside out at an accelerated rate.     Smoke from a fire also contains acids and corrosive chemicals.   Even if equipment does not get much smoke, you have to keep in mind all the salts it has absorbed over the years.  Once electrical equipment gets a little wet, it can start to corrode much faster from the inside out from these accumulations.   The solution, if there is one, is to get it really wet with clean fresh water to wash out all of the salts, acids and corrosive chemicals.   Really.   Professional restorers use fancy industrial soaps too and little scrub brushes on all the internal parts, but really all they are doing is washing it really thoroughly.   Then they dry the equipment thoroughly.   There is such a high success rate in such a process, in saving equipment from floods from water, sewage, and fire and extinguishing, that there is such a thing as a successful business in professional equipment restoration.   Insurance companies use it all the time.   When it works, it works well.   For an easily replaced thing like a $100 alternator, I would not bother, I would replace it.   If my entire VHF/SSB/sailmail/internet radio deck was exposed -- many thousands -- I would sure consider it.   My laptop, I would probably get the data off it, and buy a new one, because I probably need a new one anyway. I sure am considering a sealed box with a heat management system for all my expensive radio parts, to protect them from the ordinary marine environment.  ... note to self... have a fire port in that too.   Dry chemical is really good at what it does, putting out fires.    If all one has to do is replace the alternator, and scrub off the engine after a fire, that is not so bad when one considers the alternatives.    I would not hesitate to use a dry chemical extinguisher -- hesitation might end up costing a lot more.    Having a CO2 fire extinguisher might save even the alternator -- provided it was not what caught fire.   A fire blanket is another excellent reminder Darren.   Thank you, Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     A fire port is a good idea, but do yourself a favor and make it big enough to accept the nozzle of a CO2 fire extinguisher, which is usually much larger than the nozzle on the more common powder-based dry-chemical fire extinguishers.  Then, also make sure you get a CO2 extinguisher and keep it near by.  If you discharge a powder fire extinguisher into the engine compartment with the engine running, the engine is going to be out of commission for a good long while.  However, if you have a diesel engine, there is fair chance you could get things working again even in a remote location after extinguishing the fire with a CO2 extinguisher. We also keep a fire blanket in the galley as another way to avoid needing to use a powder extinguisher.  A powder extinguisher discharged in an enclosed space will fill the air with fine powder that makes breathing all but impossible.  It will force you to retreat even if the fire doesn't.  Even after the fire is out, everything will be covered in corrosive powder (not ideal for a metal boat).  It is worth thinking about your fire fighting strategy. Darren On 17-11-13 05:37 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Never would have thought of a fire port.  That is a really good idea.  I would have one on the battery box too.  Sounds like a black iron pipe cap, close nipple and floor plate would be better.   It would be air tight and at least as fireproof as plywood box - quite good if reasonably sealed.  Just keep a work glove handy. Matt | 34486|34471|2017-11-15 12:55:43|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| I think with virtually any fire and any extinguisher you are going to have to abandon the cabin for a period of time.  The question is how long it will be until you can go back in the cabin and what will things be like when you go back in.  I know of one case where folks who deployed a powder extinguisher in the cabin were still finding remains of the powder years after a very extensive cleanup.  More importantly, if you are at sea or the outside temps are very cold, you are going to want to get back into the cabin as quickly as possible.  A fine powder in the air and then coating every surface is a pretty significant impediment to returning to the cabin and resuming the necessities to keeping life aboard safe. If you have powder extinguishers on board they might be made to work, just be aware that you may not be able to breath after you trigger them.  As it only takes about twenty seconds to completely discharge an extinguisher, this may be manageable......  You will of course still have a very big cleanup after. As I refit my boat, I'm considering ditching my powder extinguishers and getting several more CO2 extinguishers.  I currently have a 5lb CO2 extinguisher.  If I were to add two 10lb ones they would all together create about 7 cubic meters of CO2 when discharged.  The volume of my 39' boat is around 32 cubic meters.  After I've discharged all the extinguishers and made sure the battery switch is off, my remaining tactic is to close up the boat entirely including all the dorade vents and then wait for the fire to consume the last of the oxygen.  One caveat with this strategy is that you have to wait long enough for things to cool down before you re-enter because the hot gases can reignite fairly dramatically.  You also need a boat that you can seal up tight fairly quickly.  I was once on a lifeboat that had fire dampers on all the air inlets/outlets, that seemed really nice, but for now I'm going to have to keep the caps for my dorade vents handy.  My firefighting strategy is not ideal, but after weighing the options it was the one I was most satisfied with.  I don't recommend this strategy for anyone else and provide it here for information only (disclaimer because I think we each have to make our own decisions about safety).  Thinking through a fire strategy makes you sure that you never want to have a fire.  It provides good incentive to check wiring, fuel connections etc. Darren On 17-11-15 06:30 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   That means nearly all loss-fires produce carbon monoxide and worse chemicals too.   Spraying it with CO2 can increase the carbon monoxide.  This also means the air above a fire one is in the process of extinguishing / recently-extinguished may contain combustible gases.  This is part of the reason fires are so hard to extinguish -- these gases find a way to re-ignite where the extinguisher is not pointing.  One has to keep the seat of the fire smothered until it cannot reignite the gases.   The average extinguisher is generally good on a fire 1 foot in diameter, and is generally out-classed by a fire one meter in diameter.   Keep all of this in mind in extinguishing, and for safety and next steps.   Dry chemical is mono-ammonium phosphate, mainly.   It is slightly corrosive, I would not wait more than a day to clean it up from steel, an hour would be better.   | 34487|34471|2017-11-15 14:52:13|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Thank you Darren, Yes, you are absolutely right on total volume and I found this surprising.   It is only about 7 m^3 total volume for about 25 pounds  (I calculated 28.6 pounds).... so that is far from displacing all air a cabin.   I somehow imagined there would be more volume in a tank.   I am not saying it is safe to stay in the cabin, 25% CO2 will mess with your breathing reflexes, and still reduces oxygen to levels to 3/4 of normal.   The most important point is, hoping to flood the cabin with CO2 is not going to work to put out a fire in the cabin.  Fires can burn down to 20% of normal oxygen with no trouble at all, and smouldering can continue even at lower oxygen levels.   Certainly if one partitioned up the interior of the boat with bulkheads, it would be far more effective on one section of the boat, like a berth cabin maybe. I calculated maybe 7 pounds of combustibles would have to burn to use up the air in Darren's boat.   That is a lot of firewood.   That is a lot of dinner.  That is a lot of diesel fuel.   That is a lot of mattress.   That could take a really long time as the fire burns lower and lower.   Absolutely right, one has to wait for the fire area to cool down.   Both a fire and cooling down involve a tremendous amount of volume expansion and contraction to the gases in the boat -- if one has a boat that is so well-sealed, it will hold pressure or vacuum, leave one hatch loose to allow pressure to escape or break the vacuum.   If the boat has not started sucking air into it, it is not cool yet.   Yes, general cooling of the boat can suck air into the boat and feed oxygen to a smouldering fire, keeping a small fire going a lot longer than you might expect.  If conditions outside are not conducive to long-term survival, I would not recommend re-entering the boat with a scuba tank and mask.  Too much risk of letting in air and having the fire flame up, on top of all the other ways that is a dangerous and bad idea.   Much better to grab a survival suit (wet suit/dry suit) on the way out while blocking the vents, then close up the hatch and then get dressed outside and stay outside.    If one can stand to stay outside for several hours, better than then to open the hatch and start the waiting all over again.   Lastly, I forgot to mention... Powder extinguishers can "settle" and compact and not work very well.   You have to turn them upside down and shake them from time to time to keep them loose inside.   No such problem with CO2.    Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 12:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I think with virtually any fire and any extinguisher you are going to have to abandon the cabin for a period of time.  The question is how long it will be until you can go back in the cabin and what will things be like when you go back in.  I know of one case where folks who deployed a powder extinguisher in the cabin were still finding remains of the powder years after a very extensive cleanup.  More importantly, if you are at sea or the outside temps are very cold, you are going to want to get back into the cabin as quickly as possible.  A fine powder in the air and then coating every surface is a pretty significant impediment to returning to the cabin and resuming the necessities to keeping life aboard safe. If you have powder extinguishers on board they might be made to work, just be aware that you may not be able to breath after you trigger them.  As it only takes about twenty seconds to completely discharge an extinguisher, this may be manageable......  You will of course still have a very big cleanup after. As I refit my boat, I'm considering ditching my powder extinguishers and getting several more CO2 extinguishers.  I currently have a 5lb CO2 extinguisher.  If I were to add two 10lb ones they would all together create about 7 cubic meters of CO2 when discharged.  The volume of my 39' boat is around 32 cubic meters.  After I've discharged all the extinguishers and made sure the battery switch is off, my remaining tactic is to close up the boat entirely including all the dorade vents and then wait for the fire to consume the last of the oxygen.  One caveat with this strategy is that you have to wait long enough for things to cool down before you re-enter because the hot gases can reignite fairly dramatically.  You also need a boat that you can seal up tight fairly quickly.  I was once on a lifeboat that had fire dampers on all the air inlets/outlets, that seemed really nice, but for now I'm going to have to keep the caps for my dorade vents handy.  My firefighting strategy is not ideal, but after weighing the options it was the one I was most satisfied with.  I don't recommend this strategy for anyone else and provide it here for information only (disclaimer because I think we each have to make our own decisions about safety).  Thinking through a fire strategy makes you sure that you never want to have a fire.  It provides good incentive to check wiring, fuel connections etc. Darren On 17-11-15 06:30 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   That means nearly all loss-fires produce carbon monoxide and worse chemicals too.   Spraying it with CO2 can increase the carbon monoxide.  This also means the air above a fire one is in the process of extinguishing / recently-extinguished may contain combustible gases.  This is part of the reason fires are so hard to extinguish -- these gases find a way to re-ignite where the extinguisher is not pointing.  One has to keep the seat of the fire smothered until it cannot reignite the gases.   The average extinguisher is generally good on a fire 1 foot in diameter, and is generally out-classed by a fire one meter in diameter.   Keep all of this in mind in extinguishing, and for safety and next steps.   Dry chemical is mono-ammonium phosphate, mainly.   It is slightly corrosive, I would not wait more than a day to clean it up from steel, an hour would be better.   | 34488|34473|2017-11-15 16:11:11|opuspaul|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|I would keep looking.  I have seen fully found and fully equipped steel boats for less than 50K.  If you are willing to travel, then there are some incredible deals.   The prices keep coming down.https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/adams-40-steel-cutter-serious-offshore-vessel/209787FWIW, an Adams will sail rings around a Roberts or a Folkes.Here is an old but sturdy Joshua class for far less. 30K NZD is about 21K USD.https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-774451254.htm| 34489|34471|2017-11-15 16:23:32|opuspaul|Re: Fire Port|I like the idea of a fireport.  One thing to consider is that CO2 is very cold when it comes out.  I was told that blowing it right onto a hot engine block could cause it to crack.Halon extinguishers were awesome.    They were extremely effective with no residue.  I think they were banned because they damaged the ozone layer but maybe you could get an old one or explore one of the alternatives.http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_10.htm| 34490|34471|2017-11-15 17:06:01|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| I sure would not point a CO2 fire extinguisher at a window that had yet to break from the fire, because the combination of hot and cold would break it.   But an engine block?   One does not point a fire extinguisher at one spot from close-up and put out a steady sustained stream -- that would get one spot really cold.   When extinguishing a fire, one moves the stream around to cover the fire area, and one stops when the fire appears to be out -- no one spot gets cyrogenically cold.   One may spray a little more where it is still burning.   Short bursts.  It seems this distribution of spray is unlikely to be able to make metal cold enough to break it.   The production of halon stopped in 1994.  There is a limited supply left.   It will only get more costly with time, and in price competition, one is up against installations with deep pockets, protecting really expensive equipment.   Right now it looks like it might be 5-8 times more expensive than CO2.   It will only get worse.  I think there are other ways to spend the additional money to achieve a better outcome than CO2 alone, or just not spend the extra money and consider procedures that reduce the chance of fire.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 4:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I like the idea of a fireport.  One thing to consider is that CO2 is very cold when it comes out.  I was told that blowing it right onto a hot engine block could cause it to crack. Halon extinguishers were awesome.    They were extremely effective with no residue.  I think they were banned because they damaged the ozone layer but maybe you could get an old one or explore one of the alternatives. http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_10.htm What are Halon Alternatives? Comparing Halon Alternatives ... www.h3rcleanagents.com H3R Clean Agents FAQs: What Halon Alternatives Are There? How Do the Alternatives Compare to Halon? Halocarbon-Based Agents and Inert Gas Agents | 34491|34473|2017-11-15 17:48:26|Matt Malone|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise| I think that is always the case now... one can buy a fully loaded boat for less than the price of building it and fully loading it, no matter what type of boat.   Yes, I am hearing Brent on the unpainted interiors hidden by foam and the hull slowly rotting though.   Yes, doing it yourself, you are always more sure of the quality.   But there must be a few boats that were done right before foaming, and they cannot all be expensive. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 4:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise     I would keep looking.  I have seen fully found and fully equipped steel boats for less than 50K.  If you are willing to travel, then there are some incredible deals.   The prices keep coming down. https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/adams-40-steel-cutter-serious-offshore-vessel/209787 Adams 40 Steel Cutter, Serious Offshore Vessel,: Sailing Boats | Boats Online for Sale | Steel | Tasmania (Tas) - Hobart Tas www.boatsonline.com.au WOW, A Great opportunty to purchase a ROUND THE WORLD CRUISING YACHT ( recent circumnavigation) at a BARGAIN PRICE!! Great FWIW, an Adams will sail rings around a Roberts or a Folkes. Here is an old but sturdy Joshua class for far less. 30K NZD is about 21K USD. https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-774451254.htm joshua 40ft steelketch | Trade Me www.trademe.co.nz joshua 40ft steelketch - Trade Me Motors. New cars and used cars, motorbikes, boats and more for sale on trademe.co.nz | 34492|34471|2017-11-16 12:14:50|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| Given the small volume of the engine compartment you could still use one of the halon replacements FM-200 (HFC-227) at a cost comparable to most other "clean" extinguishers.  50 cubic feet should be enough for most engine boxes if they are reasonably sealed.  It's got me thinking and if I'm buying more extinguishers anyway this might be worth considering.  If you're around somewhere where boats are being scrapped, I've seen halon-based dedicated-engine-compartment extinguishers on older boats. Thermal shock of the engine block with a CO2 extinguisher is worth considering.  It wouldn't be a great idea to put the nozzle of the CO2 extinguisher right against the hot engine block, but depending on the location of your fire port I think this isn't too much of a risk.  The cold plume from the extinguisher spreads and dissipates pretty quickly as it leaves the extinguisher.  Also, a CO2 extinguisher works fairly well to cool a six pack of beer in plain glass bottles, which are pretty sensitive to thermal shock themselves.  Good ideas. On 17-11-15 01:23 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I like the idea of a fireport.  One thing to consider is that CO2 is very cold when it comes out.  I was told that blowing it right onto a hot engine block could cause it to crack. Halon extinguishers were awesome.    They were extremely effective with no residue.  I think they were banned because they damaged the ozone layer but maybe you could get an old one or explore one of the alternatives. http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_10.htm | 34493|34471|2017-11-16 12:27:14|Darren Bos|furring strips|As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren| 34494|34471|2017-11-16 13:47:31|Alan Boucher|Re: Fire Port|Since there would be a fire in there, that would also limit thermal shock. On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Given the small volume of the engine compartment you could still use one of the halon replacements FM-200 (HFC-227) at a cost comparable to most other "clean" extinguishers.  50 cubic feet should be enough for most engine boxes if they are reasonably sealed.  It's got me thinking and if I'm buying more extinguishers anyway this might be worth considering.  If you're around somewhere where boats are being scrapped, I've seen halon-based dedicated-engine-compartment extinguishers on older boats. Thermal shock of the engine block with a CO2 extinguisher is worth considering.  It wouldn't be a great idea to put the nozzle of the CO2 extinguisher right against the hot engine block, but depending on the location of your fire port I think this isn't too much of a risk.  The cold plume from the extinguisher spreads and dissipates pretty quickly as it leaves the extinguisher.  Also, a CO2 extinguisher works fairly well to cool a six pack of beer in plain glass bottles, which are pretty sensitive to thermal shock themselves.  Good ideas. On 17-11-15 01:23 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I like the idea of a fireport.  One thing to consider is that CO2 is very cold when it comes out.  I was told that blowing it right onto a hot engine block could cause it to crack. Halon extinguishers were awesome.    They were extremely effective with no residue.  I think they were banned because they damaged the ozone layer but maybe you could get an old one or explore one of the alternatives. http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/ support_faq_10.htm -- Al Boucher | 34495|34471|2017-11-16 23:59:28|Brian Stannard|Re: furring strips|I would coat them totally with epoxy. Virus-free. www.avast.com On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren -- CheersBrian | 34496|34471|2017-11-18 10:21:50|don bourgeois|Re: furring strips| I always coat any wood exposed to wet conditions with fiberglass resin. Stinky when applying though, but it works well.   Don B.   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] furring strips     I would coat them totally with epoxy.   Virus-free. www.avast.com   On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren   -- Cheers Brian | 34497|34471|2017-11-18 16:41:36|Darren Bos|Re: furring strips| Thanks Brian and Doug, my desire to make faster progress had me looking for shortcuts.  Unfortunately, there really aren't many. Darren On 17-11-16 08:58 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I would coat them totally with epoxy. On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren . | 34498|34471|2017-11-18 16:49:30|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| Thanks for that calc Matt, I hadn't thought of calculating just how much material would be lost after closing up the boat.  At the point where I'm out of fire extinguishers and have to close up the boat, losing only an additional 7lbs of material doesn't seem that bad.  That would be one gallon of diesel or a single 8' 2x4 worth of lumber.  Of course a fire will make a big mess and ruin all sorts of things, but at 7lbs worth of material it would seem the losses might still be manageable. On 17-11-15 11:52 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I calculated maybe 7 pounds of combustibles would have to burn to use up the air in Darren's boat.   That is a lot of firewood.   That is a lot of dinner.  That is a lot of diesel fuel.   That is a lot of mattress.   That could take a really long time as the fire burns lower and lower.   Matt  | 34499|34471|2017-11-19 12:03:48|jpronk1|Re: Fire Port|I started think (so often this lands me in trouble) but could you not build your own fire suppression system using a small tank of MIG or TIG welding gas? Could you not plumb a bottle of CO2, argon or even MIG mix into your engine room? With the addition of a heat sensitivity switch or valve like in a sprinkler system, it could be made automatic?A regulator on the tank could reduce pressure to 100 psi. What do y’all think?Thank you,JamesP.S. check out my son’s video on how we lived for a year on a 27’ sailboat https://youtu.be/TSwsB4VLp7ASent from my iPhone| 34500|34471|2017-11-19 12:12:33|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Darren, Never thought of it from the strictly minimal, out of options point of view.  You are right.   BTW, 7 pounds of fibreglass is a really big vent in the side of a fibreglass boat.   I am not saying that closing up a fibreglass boat and waiting for the fire to go out cannot work, but, I would be ready to spray seawater in, anything to get the fire out a little faster because, there are no guarantees that the fire will go out before sinking the boat.   One could easily end up with nothing, not even a big floaty thing to sit on until help arrives. Now that is not to say, the fire might not open another vent in a metal boat -- those ports and hatches -- are any of them plastic?   Those windows -- any of them likely to break from thermal shock?    These might be hitches in the button-it-up approach to fire fighting.   C + H2O ==> CO  +  H2        is an endothermic reaction -- it removes heat from the fire.     30 kg of water turned to vapour will also displace all of the air in the cabin, choking out the availability of air.  Any "burning" from that point on would be an energy losing affair.   The fire would put itself out.  All cautions remain in effect about the atmosphere in the boat afterward.     But that is not much water sinking-wise, it is just a matter of getting it onto the fire while the cabin is closed.   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Turn the right valve, put the bilge intake overboard, connect the outflow to the fitting, and pump.   A small, extra, hand bilge-pump is never a bad idea on a boat -- some people may have a spare already for who knows what, pumping out the chain locker when bottom-snot clogs the drain line?    Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. I do not like the idea of being completely out of options.   What does everyone else think? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 4:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     Thanks for that calc Matt, I hadn't thought of calculating just how much material would be lost after closing up the boat.  At the point where I'm out of fire extinguishers and have to close up the boat, losing only an additional 7lbs of material doesn't seem that bad.  That would be one gallon of diesel or a single 8' 2x4 worth of lumber.  Of course a fire will make a big mess and ruin all sorts of things, but at 7lbs worth of material it would seem the losses might still be manageable. On 17-11-15 11:52 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I calculated maybe 7 pounds of combustibles would have to burn to use up the air in Darren's boat.   That is a lot of firewood.   That is a lot of dinner.  That is a lot of diesel fuel.   That is a lot of mattress.   That could take a really long time as the fire burns lower and lower.   Matt  | 34501|34471|2017-11-19 12:21:40|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Your problem in firefighting gases is, how do you get a large volume in a small tank.   CO2 is about the best one will get cheaply.   Argon is twice as heavy per unit volume in the cabin as CO2...  So 25 pounds of CO2 will go as far as 50 pounds of Argon.    Helium -- yes, 5 pounds of helium will fill the same volume as 25 pounds of CO2, but, have you ever seen a 5 pound helium tank?   One of those large high pressure tanks, about 4.5 feet tall, they have only about 6 pounds / 9 m^3 of helium in them and the tank weighs 160 pounds.    And you have to have another bomb on board.   CO2 is the best choice for common gases.   It can be hard-plumbed in, and it can be on an auto-release system.   So your idea is a good one, just use CO2.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 12:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I started think (so often this lands me in trouble) but could you not build your own fire suppression system using a small tank of MIG or TIG welding gas? Could you not plumb a bottle of CO2, argon or even MIG mix into your engine room? With the addition of a heat sensitivity switch or valve like in a sprinkler system, it could be made automatic? A regulator on the tank could reduce pressure to 100 psi.  What do y’all think? Thank you, James P.S. check out my son’s video on how we lived for a year on a 27’ sailboat  https://youtu.be/TSwsB4VLp7A How my family is living on a 27 foot sailboat for a year youtu.be My family is travelling on America's Great Loop for a year. I did a video showing a speech I wrote on America's Great Loop. I have had some people asking how... Sent from my iPhone | 34502|34471|2017-11-19 13:20:30|Victor Giraud|Re: furring strips| What about using composite decking cutting into strips, It won’t rot, bends easy,  and holds screws well. Usually can find left overs cheap. Lot easier that trying to epoxy wood strips.   Can’t nail to it, but I think nails and boats don’t mix.   Vic       Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 1:41:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] furring strips     Thanks Brian and Doug, my desire to make faster progress had me looking for shortcuts.  Unfortunately, there really aren't many. Darren On 17-11-16 08:58 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I would coat them totally with epoxy. On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren . | 34503|34471|2017-11-19 14:13:55|Aaron|Re: furring strips|Vic What brand were you looking at?I had considered using Trex composite for the furring strips and found that the screws pulled out to easily.Aaron On Sunday, November 19, 2017, 9:20:37 AM AKST, Victor Giraud vtbgiraud@... [origamiboats] wrote:   What about using composite decking cutting into strips, It won’t rot, bends easy,  and holds screws well. Usually can find left overs cheap. Lot easier that trying to epoxy wood strips.   Can’t nail to it, but I think nails and boats don’t mix.   Vic       Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 1:41:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] furring strips     Thanks Brian and Doug, my desire to make faster progress had me looking for shortcuts.  Unfortunately, there really aren't many. Darren On 17-11-16 08:58 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I would coat them totally with epoxy. On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren . | 34504|34471|2017-11-19 14:32:19|Victor Giraud|Re: furring strips| Not sure what brand it was. I found some at a second hand store and used it for furring out my concrete basement walls. It held plated drywall screws well. Was cheaper than pressure treated 1 X 4.   Found this on the internet :   “Test results! Kreg pocket hole screws hold just fine driven into solid 1“ composite decking. Can't pull 'em out even with a short pry bar.”     Vic   Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 11:13:45 AM To: Victor Giraud vtbgiraud@... [origamiboats] Subject: Re: RE: [origamiboats] furring strips     Vic What brand were you looking at? I had considered using Trex composite for the furring strips and found that the screws pulled out to easily. Aaron On Sunday, November 19, 2017, 9:20:37 AM AKST, Victor Giraud vtbgiraud@... [origamiboats] wrote:   What about using composite decking cutting into strips, It won’t rot, bends easy,  and holds screws well. Usually can find left overs cheap. Lot easier that trying to epoxy wood strips.   Can’t nail to it, but I think nails and boats don’t mix.   Vic       Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 1:41:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] furring strips     Thanks Brian and Doug, my desire to make faster progress had me looking for shortcuts.  Unfortunately, there really aren't many. Darren On 17-11-16 08:58 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I would coat them totally with epoxy. On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As I add the furring strips to my aluminum hull, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to give them a coat of epoxy before they go in. Depending on the location I'm using Douglass fir, cedar or outdoor plywood.  In a lot of places the furring strips and their fasteners will end up partly embedded in the polyurethane spray foam.  I plan on giving the foam of coat of latex paint after it is in place. Darren . | 34505|34471|2017-11-20 03:42:30|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. Matt | 34506|34471|2017-11-20 08:43:30|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. Matt | 34507|34471|2017-11-20 08:55:58|Alan Boucher|Re: Fire Port|On a larger scale the World Calisa, a CTV carrying wind tower workers off Helgoland suffered an engine room fire.  They locked down the engine room and flooded it with CO2 which put out the fire. On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:42 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. Matt -- Al Boucher | 34508|34471|2017-11-20 11:26:06|Aaron|Re: Fire Port|I'm not so sure water is going to put out a diesel fuel fire.  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. 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#ygrps-yiv-1044298234yiv4407841647ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1044298234 #ygrps-yiv-1044298234yiv4407841647 #ygrps-yiv-1044298234yiv4407841647ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1044298234 | 34509|34471|2017-11-20 17:52:15|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| You are right Aaron, there are challenges to putting out a diesel fire.   And you are making me think about the weaknesses of the idea. Certainly professional fire fighters use foam sometimes on burning liquid fires, however most of the time they use water on everything -- electrical, fuel, chemical, everything.   Yes, pouring a pot of water on a burning liquid is a capitally BAD idea, it will just spread the fire.   So how to fire fighters do it?   They set their nozzle to a fog spray that does not push the burning fluid around.  They fill the air around the fire with little droplets of water.   Make the fire eat fog, heat water, make steam, robbing it of heat and displacing air.   They choke the fire and cool the fire.  They do not try to drown it with volumes of water.   It will seem to go out by itself.    I think the calculation I did, it takes only 30 pounds, 3 gallons of water to fill the boat with steam. So yes, I should have said, set the nozzles to spray small droplets that fill the air, do not set it to gush or shoot big drops.  Even if the flow is just causing the fire to boil water and fill the boat with steam, with every stroke of the hand pump, it is still pushing out the air and eventually the fire will choke out.   I am wondering now if a bilge pump is the right pump for making fog in a boat -- too low a pressure, and too high a flow rate.   Probably better to have a higher pressure hand pump and tiny nozzles -- say 4 ounces per stoke, for 100-150 strokes to fog the boat.   What else was one going to do after buttoning up the boat?   If one cannot fog the fire inside a closed boat where you have the upper hand by eventual steam suffocation, then you are right, best that an amateur not attempt to put water on burning fuel. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I'm not so sure water is going to put out a diesel fuel fire.   Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. Matt | 34510|34471|2017-11-20 20:10:40|Aaron|Re: Fire Port|The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly. Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires.Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   You are right Aaron, there are challenges to putting out a diesel fire.   And you are making me think about the weaknesses of the idea. Certainly professional fire fighters use foam sometimes on burning liquid fires, however most of the time they use water on everything -- electrical, fuel, chemical, everything.   Yes, pouring a pot of water on a burning liquid is a capitally BAD idea, it will just spread the fire.   So how to fire fighters do it?   They set their nozzle to a fog spray that does not push the burning fluid around.  They fill the air around the fire with little droplets of water.   Make the fire eat fog, heat water, make steam, robbing it of heat and displacing air.   They choke the fire and cool the fire.  They do not try to drown it with volumes of water.   It will seem to go out by itself.    I think the calculation I did, it takes only 30 pounds, 3 gallons of water to fill the boat with steam. So yes, I should have said, set the nozzles to spray small droplets that fill the air, do not set it to gush or shoot big drops.  Even if the flow is just causing the fire to boil water and fill the boat with steam, with every stroke of the hand pump, it is still pushing out the air and eventually the fire will choke out.   I am wondering now if a bilge pump is the right pump for making fog in a boat -- too low a pressure, and too high a flow rate.   Probably better to have a higher pressure hand pump and tiny nozzles -- say 4 ounces per stoke, for 100-150 strokes to fog the boat.   What else was one going to do after buttoning up the boat?   If one cannot fog the fire inside a closed boat where you have the upper hand by eventual steam suffocation, then you are right, best that an amateur not attempt to put water on burning fuel. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I'm not so sure water is going to put out a diesel fuel fire.   Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. 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#ygrps-yiv-1467092021yiv2823103280ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1467092021 #ygrps-yiv-1467092021yiv2823103280 #ygrps-yiv-1467092021yiv2823103280ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1467092021 | 34511|34471|2017-11-20 20:23:31|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Absolutely Aaron that is basic fire extinguishers.    When buying extinguishers, absolutely, get the right one.  Darren proposed what to do after using up all extinguishers was to seal up the boat.  I proposed one more possibility. Matt From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 20:10 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   You are right Aaron, there are challenges to putting out a diesel fire.   And you are making me think about the weaknesses of the idea. Certainly professional fire fighters use foam sometimes on burning liquid fires, however most of the time they use water on everything -- electrical, fuel, chemical, everything.   Yes, pouring a pot of water on a burning liquid is a capitally BAD idea, it will just spread the fire.   So how to fire fighters do it?   They set their nozzle to a fog spray that does not push the burning fluid around.  They fill the air around the fire with little droplets of water.   Make the fire eat fog, heat water, make steam, robbing it of heat and displacing air.   They choke the fire and cool the fire.  They do not try to drown it with volumes of water.   It will seem to go out by itself.    I think the calculation I did, it takes only 30 pounds, 3 gallons of water to fill the boat with steam. So yes, I should have said, set the nozzles to spray small droplets that fill the air, do not set it to gush or shoot big drops.  Even if the flow is just causing the fire to boil water and fill the boat with steam, with every stroke of the hand pump, it is still pushing out the air and eventually the fire will choke out.   I am wondering now if a bilge pump is the right pump for making fog in a boat -- too low a pressure, and too high a flow rate.   Probably better to have a higher pressure hand pump and tiny nozzles -- say 4 ounces per stoke, for 100-150 strokes to fog the boat.   What else was one going to do after buttoning up the boat?   If one cannot fog the fire inside a closed boat where you have the upper hand by eventual steam suffocation, then you are right, best that an amateur not attempt to put water on burning fuel. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I'm not so sure water is going to put out a diesel fuel fire.   Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. Matt | 34512|34471|2017-11-20 22:08:58|Aaron|Re: Fire Port|How one seals up a boat depends on how many vents were open and can they be closed from outside. If you have to close from inside you could easily be overcome by fumes and smoke Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Absolutely Aaron that is basic fire extinguishers.    When buying extinguishers, absolutely, get the right one.  Darren proposed what to do after using up all extinguishers was to seal up the boat.  I proposed one more possibility. Matt From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 20:10 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   You are right Aaron, there are challenges to putting out a diesel fire.   And you are making me think about the weaknesses of the idea. Certainly professional fire fighters use foam sometimes on burning liquid fires, however most of the time they use water on everything -- electrical, fuel, chemical, everything.   Yes, pouring a pot of water on a burning liquid is a capitally BAD idea, it will just spread the fire.   So how to fire fighters do it?   They set their nozzle to a fog spray that does not push the burning fluid around.  They fill the air around the fire with little droplets of water.   Make the fire eat fog, heat water, make steam, robbing it of heat and displacing air.   They choke the fire and cool the fire.  They do not try to drown it with volumes of water.   It will seem to go out by itself.    I think the calculation I did, it takes only 30 pounds, 3 gallons of water to fill the boat with steam. So yes, I should have said, set the nozzles to spray small droplets that fill the air, do not set it to gush or shoot big drops.  Even if the flow is just causing the fire to boil water and fill the boat with steam, with every stroke of the hand pump, it is still pushing out the air and eventually the fire will choke out.   I am wondering now if a bilge pump is the right pump for making fog in a boat -- too low a pressure, and too high a flow rate.   Probably better to have a higher pressure hand pump and tiny nozzles -- say 4 ounces per stoke, for 100-150 strokes to fog the boat.   What else was one going to do after buttoning up the boat?   If one cannot fog the fire inside a closed boat where you have the upper hand by eventual steam suffocation, then you are right, best that an amateur not attempt to put water on burning fuel. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I'm not so sure water is going to put out a diesel fuel fire.   Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. 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#ygrps-yiv-1088680086yiv8308514536ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1088680086 #ygrps-yiv-1088680086yiv8308514536 #ygrps-yiv-1088680086yiv8308514536ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1088680086 | 34513|34471|2017-11-20 22:20:17|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Absolutely Aaron, if a fire cannot be knocked down with an extinguisher, it will poison the air in seconds. My alcohol stove has gone out, spewing unburned methanol fumes and very quickly they are choking.   A fire could easily output 10 times the fumes of a single burner. Matt From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 22:09 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   How one seals up a boat depends on how many vents were open and can they be closed from outside.  If you have to close from inside you could easily be overcome by fumes and smoke  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Absolutely Aaron that is basic fire extinguishers.    When buying extinguishers, absolutely, get the right one.  Darren proposed what to do after using up all extinguishers was to seal up the boat.  I proposed one more possibility. Matt From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 20:10 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   You are right Aaron, there are challenges to putting out a diesel fire.   And you are making me think about the weaknesses of the idea. Certainly professional fire fighters use foam sometimes on burning liquid fires, however most of the time they use water on everything -- electrical, fuel, chemical, everything.   Yes, pouring a pot of water on a burning liquid is a capitally BAD idea, it will just spread the fire.   So how to fire fighters do it?   They set their nozzle to a fog spray that does not push the burning fluid around.  They fill the air around the fire with little droplets of water.   Make the fire eat fog, heat water, make steam, robbing it of heat and displacing air.   They choke the fire and cool the fire.  They do not try to drown it with volumes of water.   It will seem to go out by itself.    I think the calculation I did, it takes only 30 pounds, 3 gallons of water to fill the boat with steam. So yes, I should have said, set the nozzles to spray small droplets that fill the air, do not set it to gush or shoot big drops.  Even if the flow is just causing the fire to boil water and fill the boat with steam, with every stroke of the hand pump, it is still pushing out the air and eventually the fire will choke out.   I am wondering now if a bilge pump is the right pump for making fog in a boat -- too low a pressure, and too high a flow rate.   Probably better to have a higher pressure hand pump and tiny nozzles -- say 4 ounces per stoke, for 100-150 strokes to fog the boat.   What else was one going to do after buttoning up the boat?   If one cannot fog the fire inside a closed boat where you have the upper hand by eventual steam suffocation, then you are right, best that an amateur not attempt to put water on burning fuel. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I'm not so sure water is going to put out a diesel fuel fire.   Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Empty pipes or hoses, nozzle on the business end, valve and fitting on the end in the propane locker.   No freeze-thaw problems.  On my boat, that is 10-12 feet x2 for galley and engine.   It does not seem like a lot of weight.   It was just a thought on how to get extra extinguishing in after the boat is closed up. Flex copper would work too. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, November 20, 03:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Built in sprinklers sound like a fair bit of trouble, and you end up with more weight at deck level.  However, it does have the advantage that you could just throw a switch and run out on deck and not have to fight the fire in difficult conditions.  I think black pipe would need epoxy coating or you'd end up with a rusty mess.  Couldn't you use pex pipe instead?  It shouldn't melt as long as it is filled with water?  It feels like a bit too much complication to me.  I'd be tempted just to keep a water filled extinguisher nearby, see details on how to improve the water below. Years ago I watched a show were a company had a corn-starch based additive that greatly improved the efficacy of water for fighting fires, it was marketed by the drum to firefighters and forestry crews.  You can now buy a product called Cold Fire that looks remarkably similar (biodegradable additive that is not only a good fire suppressant but also provides an effective heat barrier).  The  little spray cans (video) are attractive as they are so simple that no one is intimidated about using it at the first signs of fire.  However, you can also buy the bulk concentrate to add to any water-based extinguisher.  I have no affiliation with the company, I just think it's a cool product.  It looks especially attractive for grease or diesel fires, which can be a bit trickier with regular fire extinguishers.  Darren On 17-11-19 09:12 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Who says a boat cannot have a sprinkler system?  Spraying seawater is better than having it burn.  Not a real sprinkler system, but a few nozzles on the inside over likely fire areas maybe attached to 1/2 inch pipe, with a water connection and shutoff on the outside, maybe with a fitting compatible with a bilge-style pump accessible from the cockpit.   Since my boat is fibreglass, I am going to give that some serious thought.    7 pounds is a lot of stuff to burn.     Engine, galley, that is two nozzles, 10 feet of black iron pipe, that is not much work.   I could go high temperature silicon hose ($$) to make it easier to pull through -- if it gets so hot I loose that hose, then windows would be breaking anyway.   I could have the hoses come out in the propane tank locker, out of sight, no clutter on deck.   Once on deck I would be going to that locker anyway to shut off the valve on the tank, and get ready to chuck it overboard if the deck starts getting warm near it.   That would be my firefighting station on deck.   It could work. Matt | 34514|34471|2017-11-21 16:31:18|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| Aaron, the problem I see with most firefighting sites, including extinguishers 101 is that they end up recommending dry chemical extinguishers for many kinds of fire.  I don't think most folks realize how difficult these are to use in the confined space of a boat.  Check out some youtube videos, or better yet, try using a dry chemical extinguisher.  They send out a very impressive plume of powder.  In an enclosed space the suspended powder swirls around and is choking and irritating to your eyes.  One of my powder extinguishers recommends wearing a respirator to avoid breathing the dust!!! You can actually use water on a fuel fire if it has that Cold Fire additive I linked to earlier, here is an example of fighting a fuel/tire fire.  You can find other videos of it being used on grease fires.  This thread has been useful in thinking through my own fire fighting strategy.  In the end I'm going to add another CO2 extinguisher and and a 1 or 2.5 gallon water extinguisher filled with cold fire.  In the end I'll have a 10BC CO2  in the pilothouse, a 5lb CO2 besides the engine fire port, the Cold Fire extinguisher in the galley, and a fire blanket in the galley.  Matt, this sprinkler seems overpriced, but you're a creative guy so maybe you could come up with your own implementation. Darren On 17-11-20 05:10 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use. | 34515|34471|2017-11-21 16:51:49|Aaron|Re: Fire Port|DarrenThis has been a good learning thread.I will be building my engine compartment this winter with so much more to think aboutSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Aaron, the problem I see with most firefighting sites, including extinguishers 101 is that they end up recommending dry chemical extinguishers for many kinds of fire.  I don't think most folks realize how difficult these are to use in the confined space of a boat.  Check out some youtube videos, or better yet, try using a dry chemical extinguisher.  They send out a very impressive plume of powder.  In an enclosed space the suspended powder swirls around and is choking and irritating to your eyes.  One of my powder extinguishers recommends wearing a respirator to avoid breathing the dust!!! You can actually use water on a fuel fire if it has that Cold Fire additive I linked to earlier, here is an example of fighting a fuel/tire fire.  You can find other videos of it being used on grease fires.  This thread has been useful in thinking through my own fire fighting strategy.  In the end I'm going to add another CO2 extinguisher and and a 1 or 2.5 gallon water extinguisher filled with cold fire.  In the end I'll have a 10BC CO2  in the pilothouse, a 5lb CO2 besides the engine fire port, the Cold Fire extinguisher in the galley, and a fire blanket in the galley.  Matt, this sprinkler seems overpriced, but you're a creative guy so maybe you could come up with your own implementation. Darren On 17-11-20 05:10 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. 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Despite the foam having caught fire, I sealed  the boat airtight, and it went out very quickly. Trying to fight it any other way would have  been a huge mistake.My brother, a lifetime fireman, agreed strongly.| 34517|34471|2017-11-21 21:45:04|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| Darren, That coldfire seems interesting, especially that it works on class D fires -- metal fires.   I say interesting because class D fires are extraordinarily hard to put out and my practical experience in tests is, no class D extinguisher really works as well as say an A or B on their types of fires.   Sand seems to work as well as anything else on a metal fire.  Fortunately, I doubt this is a hazard in a boat.  If you get one, ignore the extinguisher, grab the go bag.    I see it is not listed for class C, electrical.   Sort of a problem....  I would still use it on unpowered bulk wiring, after I have cut the battery switch.  I would not use it on the batteries or cables leading from them to the switch or any electronics -- cable cutters and CO2 are the only thing there.   I see that one can mix winterized mixtures, good down to -65F.   I was a little concerned about the potential of freezing until I read that.   There must be a way to store the powder so that you pump water through it and out comes coldfire.   Yes, that extinguisher is pricey.   Fascinating though, and far less than automatic extinguishing systems I have seen in engine compartments.   My issue would be, I would want to make sure the engine was off before using my extinguisher... automatic takes away that option.  CO2 is less likely to cause engine damage if inhaled.   Powder would be a mess, maybe the engine would be toast.  Water, forgetaboutit.   I might buy the powder and test it. Thank you, Very interesting links Darren, Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     Aaron, the problem I see with most firefighting sites, including extinguishers 101 is that they end up recommending dry chemical extinguishers for many kinds of fire.  I don't think most folks realize how difficult these are to use in the confined space of a boat.  Check out some youtube videos, or better yet, try using a dry chemical extinguisher.  They send out a very impressive plume of powder.  In an enclosed space the suspended powder swirls around and is choking and irritating to your eyes.  One of my powder extinguishers recommends wearing a respirator to avoid breathing the dust!!! You can actually use water on a fuel fire if it has that Cold Fire additive I linked to earlier, here is an example of fighting a fuel/tire fire.  You can find other videos of it being used on grease fires.  This thread has been useful in thinking through my own fire fighting strategy.  In the end I'm going to add another CO2 extinguisher and and a 1 or 2.5 gallon water extinguisher filled with cold fire.  In the end I'll have a 10BC CO2  in the pilothouse, a 5lb CO2 besides the engine fire port, the Cold Fire extinguisher in the galley, and a fire blanket in the galley.  Matt, this sprinkler seems overpriced, but you're a creative guy so maybe you could come up with your own implementation. Darren On 17-11-20 05:10 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use. | 34518|34471|2017-11-21 21:49:30|Matt Malone|Re: Fire Port| There you have it, first hand experience.   Thank you Brent.   Were you at the pier or out on the water when it happened?   It changes the risk profile and options list.  What was the cause?  Might as well learn some more about fires on boats. Was it a fuel fire eventually, or just rubber or grease? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 7:48 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     I had a fire in my engine compartment a couple of years ago. Despite the foam having caught fire, I sealed  the boat airtight, and it went out very quickly. Trying to fight it any other way would have  been a huge mistake. My brother, a lifetime fireman, agreed strongly. | 34519|34471|2017-11-22 12:13:49|Darren Bos|Re: Fire Port| Agreed, and every boat is going to need a different firefighting strategy.  My boat mostly uses 12V DC with very little use of an inverter for 110V.  The inverter is only switched on for occasional use and could be depowered immediately by throwing a switch.  So, I'm less concerned about the water with coldfire and electricity mixing than some would/should be. I'm going to buy the coldfire stuff and give it a try.  If you have a pressurized-water fire extinguisher it looks like you can refill it with the concentrate yourself.  I've had some experience with CO2 and dry chemical extinguishers and the cold-fire stuff looks really impressive, especially on liquid fires like ethanol and diesel.  Putting out a kitchen grease fire with a short burst from a spray-can sized extinguisher, or putting out a car fire with 10L of rather than 1000 litres of water is not a trivial increase in performance, especially on a boat where your firefighting capacity is limited.  I've used every kind of extinguisher I own.  Most of my training was paid for by companies/schools, but it really doesn't cost all that much to have an extinguisher refilled yourself.  I'd rather not be learning how to use an extinguisher or the quirks of any particular kind when I actually have to fight a fire.  If you're not POSITIVE you could test an extinguisher safely yourself, you could always go to the local fire hall and ask about wanting to try the different kinds of fire extinguishers, I suspect it could be done for relatively little cost. Electrical fires are the most common source of fire on boats (example).  A lot of us are in Canada, where the coast guard mandates type B-C extinguishers, but the US actually only mandates type B extinguishers.  I wonder if this is because it should be be easy to cut off the electricity in a properly wired boat?  Also, if you want to avoid a boat fire, then giving your electrical system some attention is the best way to do it.  Electrical fires seem to be caused primarily by chafed insulation, improper fusing or too small a gauge wire.  The first one is easy to understand, but the second two can be a bit more insidious.  For example, solar panels are sometimes wired without a fuse to prevent voltage drop, or they use smaller gauge wire and are only protected by the large fuse that serves the main distribution block.  Even trickier, is a locked rotor on a bilge pump.  Because the windings in the bilge pump motor are smaller gauge than the supply wire, they are current limiting and may prevent the fuse from blowing.  However, if the supply wire is sized marginally, it can still heat up enough to melt its insulation and create even worse problems.  With a bilge pump the only option to prevent nuisance tripping of the fuse is to use over-sized wire.  With solar panels, oversized wire makes them more efficient and lets you put in a fuse large enough to prevent significant voltage drop.  I've seen far more boats with horrible wiring than I have with really good wiring.  I suspect the numbers from the Boat US example would be very different if boat wiring was done to a higher standard.  When I gutted my boat I found numerous unfused wires and high resistance connections that were asking for trouble. Darren On 17-11-21 06:45 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, That coldfire seems interesting, especially that it works on class D fires -- metal fires.   I say interesting because class D fires are extraordinarily hard to put out and my practical experience in tests is, no class D extinguisher really works as well as say an A or B on their types of fires.   Sand seems to work as well as anything else on a metal fire.  Fortunately, I doubt this is a hazard in a boat.  If you get one, ignore the extinguisher, grab the go bag.    I see it is not listed for class C, electrical.   Sort of a problem....  I would still use it on unpowered bulk wiring, after I have cut the battery switch.  I would not use it on the batteries or cables leading from them to the switch or any electronics -- cable cutters and CO2 are the only thing there.   Thank you, Very interesting links Darren, Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fire Port     Aaron, the problem I see with most firefighting sites, including extinguishers 101 is that they end up recommending dry chemical extinguishers for many kinds of fire.  I don't think most folks realize how difficult these are to use in the confined space of a boat.  Check out some youtube videos, or better yet, try using a dry chemical extinguisher.  They send out a very impressive plume of powder.  In an enclosed space the suspended powder swirls around and is choking and irritating to your eyes.  One of my powder extinguishers recommends wearing a respirator to avoid breathing the dust!!! You can actually use water on a fuel fire if it has that Cold Fire additive I linked to earlier, here is an example of fighting a fuel/tire fire.  You can find other videos of it being used on grease fires.  This thread has been useful in thinking through my own fire fighting strategy.  In the end I'm going to add another CO2 extinguisher and and a 1 or 2.5 gallon water extinguisher filled with cold fire.  In the end I'll have a 10BC CO2  in the pilothouse, a 5lb CO2 besides the engine fire port, the Cold Fire extinguisher in the galley, and a fire blanket in the galley.  Matt, this sprinkler seems overpriced, but you're a creative guy so maybe you could come up with your own implementation. Darren On 17-11-20 05:10 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The problem is fuel will float on the water and spread rapidly.  Water on electrical fire is also not a wise idea if it's more than 48 volts AC or DC  Carbon dioxide Co2 extinguishers ate used for class B and C fires. Look up fire extinguishers 101 it is an excellent primer for what to use. | 34520|34473|2017-11-22 15:52:18|Larry Bishop|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.html ROBERTS 44 , professionally built in 94, launched and lived on for 15 years, then taken out and located in present location, OUTSIDE Victoria in fenced yard where it can remain and be worked on, or launch and take to your marina. This b oat comes with a new 6 cyl PERKINS, GEAR, SHAFT PROP ETC, .these are installed but have never been hooked up.Hull is in fantastic condition, but needs a full interior, and mast and sails if that s what you want, WOULD MAKE A PERFECT LIVEABOARD POWER BOAT. Design is Roberts most famous, over 2,000 built, most in steel. Will look at most trades, cash also works, go figure.I don t do the text thing, phone show contact info for info.  -------- Original message -------- From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-13-2017 6:46 PM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise Couldn't open it for a look ,but for a resourceful builder- scrounger , $70 K sounds high, given how much used gear is available these days. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Have been up and down the coast, checking out sailboats. Steel sailboats are of interest, despite potential corrosion problems. Ran across an advertisement in Craigslist for a Roberts 44: https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.html A knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to finish the sailboat. Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct? Surprised to see 60' steel sailboats, on par with concrete sailboat sizes. Origami sailboats also have better lines than the 50' steel sailboats around. Surprised and disappointed that aluminum is more expensive than steel, since aluminum should be more malleable, easier to shape, and although zinc would not protect aluminum from corrosion. What would be the cost of a 44' origami sailboat in steel or aluminum? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 34521|34473|2017-11-22 15:52:42|Larry Bishop|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Thankyou for responding, and your estimates.The first step would be to check the condition of the hull.15 years can do horrid things, pitting, perforations, etc...No substitute for maintenance, zincs and paint.It might be midway of 30 years, halflife.However, drydocked, mast off, gutted, indicate a retired hull.-------- Original message --------From: "Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-15-2017 6:28 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise   Yes. No. It depends on real state vs ad. It depends on what You want to do, will You also work on it or hire it all out. 60 ft is very big in volume .. this means vastly more area for sandblasting, painting, insulation, firring. Longer wire runs, conduits, etc. Much bigger winches, blocks, tackle, etc. Much more expensive rigging. The offer is very attractive at 20k .. all the extra cost is already out of it. If the steel is sound and not rusted .. the hull is excellent value. I suspect that I might be able to make it run for 30k-50k parts cost with *no* interior or systems or rigging. This would be with sound through-hulls, driveline + engine, tackle and anchor and winch, very basic electricals, zero electronics. But sandblasted in/out, primed, painted, insulated, firred, all portlights fixed, all hatches fixed. Engine, transmission, tankage etc. Using all second hand bits and pieces and off-tint industrial marine paint. About 6 months work. Endless caveats and risks of high cost. Thrust bearings, mooring bitts, anchor chain, anchor, anchor winch etc. If portlights are bad, new ones are 10k+. Second-hand ones hard to find in the size, lots of work hours. On 13/11/2017 10:16, Larry Bishop larrybishop279@... [origamiboats] wrote: > A knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to > finish the sailboat. > Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34522|34473|2017-11-22 15:53:03|Larry Bishop|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Corrosion from within can be unanticipated...One reason for seeking a simplified interior is to provide access to the hull.Inspections and patchwork have to be accessible.-------- Original message --------From: "rockrothwell@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-15-2017 7:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise   If your lookinng at steel boats one thing that threw me for a bit was Folkboats. There are a coupla different styles & sizes in steel some with nice lines, well appointed & fitted out beautifuly cheap too, mid 20's all looks lovely, but its a time bomb as they were not coated properly & justfoamed over, just like the man said also, rode stowage is below...salt stays after it's soaked in through the foam. attracts h2o & it stays wet right down the length of her breast. on others, the c'pit sole was not insulated so it sweats,, but the bildges below it (aft of the stuffing box) were foamed. so same effect aft with just a dribble of rust that ran out under the foam just above the stuffing box..... But it ain't no Brentboat | 34523|34473|2017-11-22 15:53:30|Larry Bishop|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Fe fo fum and a bottle o rum.Concrete hulls were a fad...  large and cheap.Doing away with framing means thicker material, increasing weight.Arced surfaces increase rigidity, but require uniform, consistent, pressure.-------- Original message --------From: "rockrothwell@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-14-2017 11:30 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise   Brent's book would be a good start it'll simplify matters for you. Look at pretty much any tupperware, or anything else for that matter. Compare that to steel. So damned solid, it's stupid. Smug? Damned right. Lucky? Unbelievably so. But fact of the matter is that if your gonna spend that kind of money you can get sucked into the market bullshit & run around for the Yacht club chandlers & the bob perrys of this world. Or you can build or buy something simple that is so gawd damed solid there is just no question.None. And it's bone dry down below. with a fireplace. The call 'em Brentboats | 34524|34471|2017-11-22 15:54:21|Larry Bishop|Re: Fire Port|Everyone should read this twice.-------- Original message --------From: "losforsters@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-14-2017 12:09 PM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fire Port       On Prairie Maid we have the solenoid with the breaker in arms reach of the stove.  We also have the pressure gauge out at the bottles.  I also ran both the lines to the fireplace and the other to the stove separately from the bottles as per the yachting recommendations.  Unless an appliance is being used we always turn off the breaker, the same being for the pressure water as well.   When leaving the boat the bottle valve is also shut off.  I too have seen the aftermath of a gas explosion in a Tupperware boat.  It separated the coach roof from the deck.  Amazingly the owner who was inside survived the experience with very minor injuries.  Because of that I installed a propane detector and a CO2 as well.  So far the only bad experience on board our boat with propane has been the gumming up of the solenoid by a thick emulsion of smelly what ever they put in propane fuel.  I'm not an experienced mariner like some on this site but I do have a great respect for certain things.  1- the power of water and wind2- the danger of electricity3- the danger of any volatile material, especially in confined spaces.  Martin.... (Prairie Maid) | 34525|34473|2017-11-22 16:12:13|brentswain38|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|Concrete hulls are often sold for less than the cost of gear on them.(which can easily be moved to a new steel hull.) You don't  have to live on them long to be money ahead of what you would have spent on rent.Thin plates and framing are a recipe for holing at the frames, if you hit something in the night . Thicker plate just springs back, undented and undamaged. I have seen many thin hulled boats rust thru, which could have had many more decades use, had the plate been 3/16th instead of 1/8th. That is something numbers  crunchers don't comprehend, without having been in that situation, or known  someone in that situation. Bob Perry's do everything possible  to increase the cost and complexity of a boat, while ridiculing any attempt at  resourcefulness, and discouraging anyone who is not rich from cruising, while offering absolutely no solutions to the biggest problems facing wannabe cruisers, time and money.He spent decades sponging off a disabled person, conning him out of up to $175 an hour for "Consulting fees" on things he has never done; long term cruising. He is the definition of an elitist , arrogant, snobby, total asshole.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Fe fo fum and a bottle o rum.Concrete hulls were a fad...  large and cheap.Doing away with framing means thicker material, increasing weight.Arced surfaces increase rigidity, but require uniform, consistent, pressure.-------- Original message --------From: "rockrothwell@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-14-2017 11:30 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise  Brent's book would be a good start it'll simplify matters for you. Look at pretty much any tupperware, or anything else for that matter. Compare that to steel. So damned solid, it's stupid. Smug? Damned right. Lucky? Unbelievably so. But fact of the matter is that if your gonna spend that kind of money you can get sucked into the market bullshit & run around for the Yacht club chandlers & the bob perrys of this world. Or you can build or buy something simple that is so gawd damed solid there is just no question.None. And it's bone dry down below. with a fireplace. The call 'em Brentboats| 34526|34473|2017-11-22 16:21:06|brentswain38|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|A  thick buildup of epoxy inside can eliminate that problem, as time and experience has shown. The problem with Foulkes, Fehr and and Amazons is they made absolutely no attempt to paint the inside, knowing full well that the boats  would rust under the foam ,quickly.How do you plan to access and regularly inspect the hull behind the foam?No foam?You obviously haven't lived aboard in cold climes.Sounds like abstract theory, devoid of actual experience---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Corrosion from within can be unanticipated...One reason for seeking a simplified interior is to provide access to the hull.Inspections and patchwork have to be accessible.-------- Original message --------From: "rockrothwell@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-15-2017 7:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise  If your lookinng at steel boats one thing that threw me for a bit was Folkboats. There are a coupla different styles & sizes in steel some with nice lines, well appointed & fitted out beautifuly cheap too, mid 20's all looks lovely, but its a time bomb as they were not coated properly & justfoamed over, just like the man said also, rode stowage is below...salt stays after it's soaked in through the foam. attracts h2o & it stays wet right down the length of her breast. on others, the c'pit sole was not insulated so it sweats,, but the bildges below it (aft of the stuffing box) were foamed. so same effect aft with just a dribble of rust that ran out under the foam just above the stuffing box..... But it ain't no Brentboat | 34527|34473|2017-11-22 22:51:47|Larry Dale|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|If this is a Roberts Spray series sailboat; Don't buy it. They take half a gale to come about. Conversely they are very directionally stable. I bought plans for a steel Spray decades ago and I was talking to Larry Paradey who said don't build it because he had seen a number of them in his travels that couldn't manoeuvre properly. From: "Larry Bishop larrybishop279@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.htmlROBERTS 44 , professionally built in 94, launched and lived on for 15 years, then taken out and located in present location, OUTSIDE Victoria in fenced yard where it can remain and be worked on, or launch and take to your marina. This b oat comes with a new 6 cyl PERKINS, GEAR, SHAFT PROP ETC, .these are installed but have never been hooked up.Hull is in fantastic condition, but needs a full interior, and mast and sails if that s what you want, WOULD MAKE A PERFECT LIVEABOARD POWER BOAT. Design is Roberts most famous, over 2,000 built, most in steel. Will look at most trades, cash also works, go figure.I don t do the text thing, phone show contact info for info. -------- Original message --------From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-13-2017  6:46 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 ..  Please advise Couldn't open it for a look ,but for a resourceful builder-  scrounger , $70 K sounds high, given how much used gear is available these days.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Have been up and down the coast, checking out sailboats.Steel sailboats are of interest, despite potential corrosion problems.Ran across an advertisement in Craigslist for a Roberts 44:https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.htmlA knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to finish the sailboat.Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct?Surprised to see 60' steel sailboats, on par with concrete sailboat sizes.Origami sailboats also have better lines than the 50' steel sailboats around.Surprised and disappointed that aluminum is more expensive than steel, since aluminum should be more malleable, easier to shape, and although zinc would not protect aluminum from corrosion.What would be the cost of a 44' origami sailboat in steel or aluminum?[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]------------------------------------Posted by: Larry Bishop ------------------------------------To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com------------------------------------Yahoo Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    origamiboats-digest@yahoogroups.com     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:    https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ | 34528|34471|2017-11-26 22:04:10|aguysailing|Re: Fire Port|Brent... was that a fair size fire?  I had a battery wire chafe on the engine mount with thick choking smoke.  The fire was at the point of chafe so I just smothered it with rags.  Could not believe the amount of smoke.  Good advice previous post was to check all your wires.  I ended up putting bilge house around the wires.| 34529|34471|2017-11-27 14:42:12|opuspaul|Re: Fire Port|Plastic insulation on burning wires can make a huge amount of smoke.   I had a similar problem but it wasn't on an electrical conductor.   The heavy  ground wire broke off my alternator so all the charge current (100A) found the easiest path to ground which happened to be through the shift cable.   The insulation burned and the cable welded itself in one place so that I could no longer shift the engine.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent... was that a fair size fire?  I had a battery wire chafe on the engine mount with thick choking smoke.  The fire was at the point of chafe so I just smothered it with rags.  Could not believe the amount of smoke.  Good advice previous post was to check all your wires.  I ended up putting bilge house around the wires.| 34530|34471|2017-11-28 17:08:48|Darren Bos|AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger|As I get ready to insulate my boat, I've been running conduit and planning my wiring.  Given concerns about corrosion when hooked up to AC shore power, an isolation transformer seems like a good idea, except that it is expensive and bulky.  My AC needs are very modest and they could all be easily met with an inverter which I plan to have aboard.  Therefore, I've been wondering.  Since proper marine battery chargers are isolated (no connection between the AC (live, neutral or ground) and the DC (positive and negative) sides of the charger, would it not be possible to protect the boat from corrosion through the AC ground wire by having the only AC connection within the boat be the battery charger?  My googling has turned up relatively little information, but it seems simple, reliable and less expensive.  In other words, origamiboats style. Darren| 34531|34471|2017-11-28 17:54:40|Matt Malone|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger| Hi Darren, you would have to look carefully at your transformer and make sure that it does not in fact share the ground wire with the metal case of the battery charger-- bolting that case to the boat, connects the ground to the boat.   Bolting it to a plastic cutting board might work, but, a little moisture and you are again getting leakage. It is convenient to have more access to share power than the battery charger is typically capable of putting out -- a 20Amp 12V charger, only gives you 240Watts, more than that and you are drawing from the batteries.   Consider a commercial isolation transformer with no air ventilation holes, and marine-izing it. Consider also a 220V Euro to 120V North America transformer, sometimes those can be cheaply had for 800-1200 Watts.   Connect the 220V side to the two phases of the 220V split-phase shore power found in North America, and use 120V output on the other side. Next to that, your battery charger idea, but a huge consumer battery charger, like 50 Amps.  I am concerned about anything in a metal case meant to plug into a North American wall outlet -- the case will always be grounded.    Other than that, I can think of no good way around it.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 5:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger     As I get ready to insulate my boat, I've been running conduit and planning my wiring.  Given concerns about corrosion when hooked up to AC shore power, an isolation transformer seems like a good idea, except that it is expensive and bulky.  My AC needs are very modest and they could all be easily met with an inverter which I plan to have aboard.  Therefore, I've been wondering.  Since proper marine battery chargers are isolated (no connection between the AC (live, neutral or ground) and the DC (positive and negative) sides of the charger, would it not be possible to protect the boat from corrosion through the AC ground wire by having the only AC connection within the boat be the battery charger?  My googling has turned up relatively little information, but it seems simple, reliable and less expensive.  In other words, origamiboats style. Darren | 34532|34471|2017-12-01 11:39:53|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger| Thanks for the feedback Matt, I'd hoped to reply having found a solution, but I'm still working on it.  I think I could make do with the power just from a battery charger, although it would be nice to have a luxury like an electric heater.  Electric heater aside, having 240 watts 24/7 would be fairly luxurious compared to making my own power when on the hook.  I was also thinking of a 40A charger, so that would be a truly extravagant 480 watts :-) The main problem is finding a charger that can act like an isolation transformer.  The two main issues are finding out if the charger has an internal transformer that is shielded in such a way that an internal fault is led back to the shoreside ground and one that does not have the case grounded in such a way that the boat does not end up grounded when attached to the case.  I'm looking for such a charger but haven't found it yet.  Something like the Promariner 1240P would likely meet all my needs, but I think it would only work as an isolation transformer if the ground post was not connected to the hull.  Depending on how the charger is built, this leaves the small chance that an internal fault could lead to the boats DC system becoming energized with AC.  For reference I'm also building a completely floating DC system without any connection of the DC neg to the hull. Darren On 17-11-28 02:54 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Hi Darren, you would have to look carefully at your transformer and make sure that it does not in fact share the ground wire with the metal case of the battery charger-- bolting that case to the boat, connects the ground to the boat.   Bolting it to a plastic cutting board might work, but, a little moisture and you are again getting leakage. It is convenient to have more access to share power than the battery charger is typically capable of putting out -- a 20Amp 12V charger, only gives you 240Watts, more than that and you are drawing from the batteries.   Consider a commercial isolation transformer with no air ventilation holes, and marine-izing it. Consider also a 220V Euro to 120V North America transformer, sometimes those can be cheaply had for 800-1200 Watts.   Connect the 220V side to the two phases of the 220V split-phase shore power found in North America, and use 120V output on the other side. Next to that, your battery charger idea, but a huge consumer battery charger, like 50 Amps.  I am concerned about anything in a metal case meant to plug into a North American wall outlet -- the case will always be grounded.    Other than that, I can think of no good way around it.   Matt | 34533|34471|2017-12-01 13:39:19|Brian Stannard|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger|The Promariner 1240P only connects to Dc positive and negative. its chassis ground also connects to DC negative. There would only be a connection to the hull if the DC system is grounded to it . If the Dc system is floating there would be no connection to the hull.Not sure how it could act as an isolation transformer though as its output is DC only.A better choice would be a Victron isolation transformer on the incoming AC. This allows you to choose either 120 or 240 volts output regardless of input as well as offering total AC isolation from shore power. Virus-free. www.avast.com On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Thanks for the feedback Matt, I'd hoped to reply having found a solution, but I'm still working on it.  I think I could make do with the power just from a battery charger, although it would be nice to have a luxury like an electric heater.  Electric heater aside, having 240 watts 24/7 would be fairly luxurious compared to making my own power when on the hook.  I was also thinking of a 40A charger, so that would be a truly extravagant 480 watts :-) The main problem is finding a charger that can act like an isolation transformer.  The two main issues are finding out if the charger has an internal transformer that is shielded in such a way that an internal fault is led back to the shoreside ground and one that does not have the case grounded in such a way that the boat does not end up grounded when attached to the case.  I'm looking for such a charger but haven't found it yet.  Something like the Promariner 1240P would likely meet all my needs, but I think it would only work as an isolation transformer if the ground post was not connected to the hull.  Depending on how the charger is built, this leaves the small chance that an internal fault could lead to the boats DC system becoming energized with AC.  For reference I'm also building a completely floating DC system without any connection of the DC neg to the hull. Darren On 17-11-28 02:54 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Hi Darren, you would have to look carefully at your transformer and make sure that it does not in fact share the ground wire with the metal case of the battery charger-- bolting that case to the boat, connects the ground to the boat.   Bolting it to a plastic cutting board might work, but, a little moisture and you are again getting leakage. It is convenient to have more access to share power than the battery charger is typically capable of putting out -- a 20Amp 12V charger, only gives you 240Watts, more than that and you are drawing from the batteries.   Consider a commercial isolation transformer with no air ventilation holes, and marine-izing it. Consider also a 220V Euro to 120V North America transformer, sometimes those can be cheaply had for 800-1200 Watts.   Connect the 220V side to the two phases of the 220V split-phase shore power found in North America, and use 120V output on the other side. Next to that, your battery charger idea, but a huge consumer battery charger, like 50 Amps.  I am concerned about anything in a metal case meant to plug into a North American wall outlet -- the case will always be grounded.    Other than that, I can think of no good way around it.   Matt -- CheersBrian | 34534|34471|2017-12-01 15:49:36|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger| Thanks Brian, that's useful.  If the Promariner Chassis ground only connects to DC negative and is not connected to the incoming shoreside ground then it could work. My logic is like this:  Any metal boat should have the incoming AC ground isolated from the hull for corrosion reasons.  This can be achieved by an isolation transformer, but you could also do it with a marine battery charger where the AC ground is isolated from the DC negative (some shore-based chargers do not do this).  If your incoming AC only goes to a battery charger and you only use AC aboard that is from an inverter, then you eliminate the corrosion problems associated with a shore-based ground.  You still ground the inverter to the hull and thus maintain AC safety.  This system has the limitation that the momentary AC load is limited by the inverter and the long-term AC load is limited by your battery charger.   However, this would be more than enough to do all the things we normally do at anchor and even some other luxuries we don't normally have (e.g. electric kettle). As we refit our boat I've worked towards low current consumption and mostly 12V devices.  The only real desire for AC comes from an easy way to keep the batteries fully charged during a cloudy BC winter.  Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts 120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen. Darren On 17-12-01 10:38 AM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The Promariner 1240P only connects to Dc positive and negative. its chassis ground also connects to DC negative. There would only be a connection to the hull if the DC system is grounded to it . If the Dc system is floating there would be no connection to the hull. Not sure how it could act as an isolation transformer though as its output is DC only. A better choice would be a Victron isolation transformer on the incoming AC. This allows you to choose either 120 or 240 volts output regardless of input as well as offering total AC isolation from shore power. | 34535|34471|2017-12-01 16:31:04|Matt Malone|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger| Hi Darren, >Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the >world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of >shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts >120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always >deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen. I found some good plastic case, double insulated, switching power supply battery chargers (no massive transformer) at Canadian Tire, took one apart, and the first element after the AC hookup is a bridge rectifier.   This suggests they might also run from 130-250V DC.    I created a variable DC power supply, good for 10Amps and 100-180VDC, and I have been using it test hand tools (universal motors with brushes) and high efficiency lightbulbs to see which ones are happy on DC.   I have not tested the chargers yet.  BTW, no flames yet, but some tools did not turn -- disconnect quickly no damage -- and one worked fine but the trigger burned and it would not stop.     It adds one more possibility if your charger likes DC also.    If they do have a bridge rectifier first, then they will probably like 400Hz also which comes in handy if you come across some military/aerospace salvage -- high quality for cheap.   The charger might also run from your weldernator, giving you an option if the alternator is pooched.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 3:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger     Thanks Brian, that's useful.  If the Promariner Chassis ground only connects to DC negative and is not connected to the incoming shoreside ground then it could work. My logic is like this:  Any metal boat should have the incoming AC ground isolated from the hull for corrosion reasons.  This can be achieved by an isolation transformer, but you could also do it with a marine battery charger where the AC ground is isolated from the DC negative (some shore-based chargers do not do this).  If your incoming AC only goes to a battery charger and you only use AC aboard that is from an inverter, then you eliminate the corrosion problems associated with a shore-based ground.  You still ground the inverter to the hull and thus maintain AC safety.  This system has the limitation that the momentary AC load is limited by the inverter and the long-term AC load is limited by your battery charger.   However, this would be more than enough to do all the things we normally do at anchor and even some other luxuries we don't normally have (e.g. electric kettle). As we refit our boat I've worked towards low current consumption and mostly 12V devices.  The only real desire for AC comes from an easy way to keep the batteries fully charged during a cloudy BC winter.  Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts 120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen. Darren On 17-12-01 10:38 AM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The Promariner 1240P only connects to Dc positive and negative. its chassis ground also connects to DC negative. There would only be a connection to the hull if the DC system is grounded to it . If the Dc system is floating there would be no connection to the hull. Not sure how it could act as an isolation transformer though as its output is DC only. A better choice would be a Victron isolation transformer on the incoming AC. This allows you to choose either 120 or 240 volts output regardless of input as well as offering total AC isolation from shore power. | 34536|34471|2017-12-01 17:12:59|Brian Stannard|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger|All marine battery chargers or inverters connect the chassis ground to DC negative. As I posted the connection of AC ground (green) to DC negative is at the main panel typically and is mandated by ABYC. I wouldn't do this on a metal boat.All marine battery chargers separate the AC section from the DC section internally. The chassis ground to DC negative does make the connection though.The inexpensive way if going overseas is a modern charger (90-250 volt) and an inverter as you suggested. Virus-free. www.avast.com On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Thanks Brian, that's useful.  If the Promariner Chassis ground only connects to DC negative and is not connected to the incoming shoreside ground then it could work. My logic is like this:  Any metal boat should have the incoming AC ground isolated from the hull for corrosion reasons.  This can be achieved by an isolation transformer, but you could also do it with a marine battery charger where the AC ground is isolated from the DC negative (some shore-based chargers do not do this).  If your incoming AC only goes to a battery charger and you only use AC aboard that is from an inverter, then you eliminate the corrosion problems associated with a shore-based ground.  You still ground the inverter to the hull and thus maintain AC safety.  This system has the limitation that the momentary AC load is limited by the inverter and the long-term AC load is limited by your battery charger.   However, this would be more than enough to do all the things we normally do at anchor and even some other luxuries we don't normally have (e.g. electric kettle). As we refit our boat I've worked towards low current consumption and mostly 12V devices.  The only real desire for AC comes from an easy way to keep the batteries fully charged during a cloudy BC winter.  Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts 120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen. Darren On 17-12-01 10:38 AM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The Promariner 1240P only connects to Dc positive and negative. its chassis ground also connects to DC negative. There would only be a connection to the hull if the DC system is grounded to it . If the Dc system is floating there would be no connection to the hull. Not sure how it could act as an isolation transformer though as its output is DC only. A better choice would be a Victron isolation transformer on the incoming AC. This allows you to choose either 120 or 240 volts output regardless of input as well as offering total AC isolation from shore power. -- CheersBrian | 34537|34471|2017-12-01 20:48:17|Larry Bishop|Re: Fire Port|A normally closed solenoid provides a margin of safety.-------- Original message --------From: "rockrothwell@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-14-2017 11:09 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fire Port   Just got a solenoid, but if you leave that on it's the same differance isn't it. The gas man....it's still on. In looking at timers there is of course the high teck digital godsend from amarica but for $17 from home hardware a sping wound 110v manual biffy fan timer is more my style Just add a good bright red 12v LED in line as another reminder and for another couplabux an in line pressure guage is real cheap insurane. One of my earliest memories is of being held by the ankles by my Dad into the bildge of whatever boat he was working on. He was a marine broker so this happened quite a bit. They'd chuck him in the slammer these days, He also showed me through a boat that exploded. I was just little but damnit it stuck The inline pressure guage wasnt a sale, it's a given. | 34538|34471|2017-12-02 00:12:38|Gordon Schnell|Re: Fire Port|On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Larry Bishop larrybishop279@... [origamiboats] wrote:A normally closed solenoid provides a margin of safety.-------- Original message --------From: "rockrothwell@... [origamiboats]"  Date:11-14-2017 11:09 AM (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fire Port  Just got a solenoid, but if you leave that on it's the same differance isn't it. The gas man....it's still on.In looking at timers there is of course the high teck digital godsend from amaricabut for $17 from home hardware a sping wound 110v manual biffy fan timer is more my styleJust add a good bright red 12v LED in line as another reminderand for another couplabux an in line pressure guage is real cheap insurane.One of my earliest memories is of being held by the ankles by my Dad into the bildge of whatever boat he was working on. He was a marine broker so this happened quite a bit.They'd chuck him in the slammer these days,He also showed me through a boat that exploded. I was just little but damnit it stuckThe inline pressure guage wasnt a sale, it's a given.| 34539|34471|2017-12-02 10:07:46|garyhlucas|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger| All the older corded power tools had compound brushed motors and would run on AC or DC.  Many welders had a 120vdc outlet for running a grinder.  With the advent of trigger speed controls DC is longer usable as the speed controllers use a chopper circuit to trim off part of the sine wave from AC to get speed control.   Switching power supplies and VFDs too rectify the AC to DC as the first step, so you can power them with DC no problem.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger       Hi Darren,   >Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the >world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of >shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts >120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always >deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen.   I found some good plastic case, double insulated, switching power supply battery chargers (no massive transformer) at Canadian Tire, took one apart, and the first element after the AC hookup is a bridge rectifier.   This suggests they might also run from 130-250V DC.      I created a variable DC power supply, good for 10Amps and 100-180VDC, and I have been using it test hand tools (universal motors with brushes) and high efficiency lightbulbs to see which ones are happy on DC.   I have not tested the chargers yet.  BTW, no flames yet, but some tools did not turn -- disconnect quickly no damage -- and one worked fine but the trigger burned and it would not stop.     It adds one more possibility if your charger likes DC also.    If they do have a bridge rectifier first, then they will probably like 400Hz also which comes in handy if you come across some military/aerospace salvage -- high quality for cheap.   The charger might also run from your weldernator, giving you an option if the alternator is pooched.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 3:49 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger     Thanks Brian, that's useful.  If the Promariner Chassis ground only connects to DC negative and is not connected to the incoming shoreside ground then it could work. My logic is like this:  Any metal boat should have the incoming AC ground isolated from the hull for corrosion reasons.  This can be achieved by an isolation transformer, but you could also do it with a marine battery charger where the AC ground is isolated from the DC negative (some shore-based chargers do not do this).  If your incoming AC only goes to a battery charger and you only use AC aboard that is from an inverter, then you eliminate the corrosion problems associated with a shore-based ground.  You still ground the inverter to the hull and thus maintain AC safety.  This system has the limitation that the momentary AC load is limited by the inverter and the long-term AC load is limited by your battery charger.   However, this would be more than enough to do all the things we normally do at anchor and even some other luxuries we don't normally have (e.g. electric kettle). As we refit our boat I've worked towards low current consumption and mostly 12V devices.  The only real desire for AC comes from an easy way to keep the batteries fully charged during a cloudy BC winter.  Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts 120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen. Darren On 17-12-01 10:38 AM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The Promariner 1240P only connects to Dc positive and negative. its chassis ground also connects to DC negative. There would only be a connection to the hull if the DC system is grounded to it . If the Dc system is floating there would be no connection to the hull.   Not sure how it could act as an isolation transformer though as its output is DC only.   A better choice would be a Victron isolation transformer on the incoming AC. This allows you to choose either 120 or 240 volts output regardless of input as well as offering total AC isolation from shore power.   | 34540|34471|2017-12-02 13:01:28|Matt Malone|AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for prac| >With the advent of trigger speed controls DC is longer usable as the speed >controllers use a chopper circuit to trim off part of the sine wave from AC to >get speed control. Gary is absolutely right.  Do not attempt to run any variable speed drills or like tools on DC.   Common dimmer switches work the same way, just in case anyone was thinking of using a dimmer switch on a DC source as a substitute for speed control or any other use.    AC makes things like the contacts that break circuits, dimming control and speed control really easy because within at most 8 ms and on average within 4ms, the AC wave will be crossing through zero volts again.   That can be exploited with an SCR / thyristor and a really simple circuit with inexpensive parts.   With contacts parting, arcs in AC are more prone to self-quench than on DC, so there are less demands on switches.   For instance, a simple 120V wall light switch like is used in North America for light fixtures, as far as I can tell, there is nothing inexpensive, in that form factor rated for 120VDC and even 10Amps.   There are plenty of industrial contactors, but, they are far more then the approximately $1 per unit for a 120VAC/15Amp light switch.   Because of potential wear and tear on built-in power tool on-off switches when used on DC, I considered a foot-pedal control -- if the foot pedal switch goes, it can be replaced more easily.   One thing cheaply available in DC are DC-rated fuses, so no excuse not to have a few to help prevent fires.    I would recommend considering a 24V hotel load battery string.   In a boat, a 24V hotel load battery system and a 24V to 120V inverter -- easily found -- makes the rest of the hotel wiring easy using common AC components.   Now common AC stuff works by just plugging it in.   (Note, I have not tested any inverters to see what their energy efficiency is.   When doing total energy calculations when sizing solar or a wind generator, I would not bet on better than 80% useful efficiency from an inverter.)    Essential systems like nav lights, radio and nav system should be directly fed from a separate 12V system.   So in this system, the electrical would have 4 batteries:  1 starting, one boat systems 12V, and 2 to make the 24V for hotel loads.  The 12V starting and house can be on the usual battery switch, both chargable from the engine alternator.    One can double-up 12V loads with a double-pole-single-throw switch to, for instance, turn on two 12V lights from each of the batteries in the 24V string at the same time to keep the draw on the two batteries in the 24V string equal.   Just use even numbers of loads, and pair them, and 12V stuff runs from the two 12V batteries in the 24V system with no problem.     The 24V would be chargable from shore, or from wind/solar.   A 120V AC to 12V DC charger can be used from shore or the 24V-sourced, inverter-driven 120V to balance the hotel batteries or charge the starting battery.   In an emergency a couple of jumper cables from either of the 24V hotel batteries can be jumped to the starting battery to get things running -- same thing with the radio.   Two good 12V / 100Ah batteries in the hotel string makes 2.4kW hours of power -- naturally to keep the battery health, one does not want to go more than 30% into that capacity or 0.7kW-hours.   Yes, that is probably $400 in batteries to store less than 11 cents worth of usable grid power, but an industrial solar panel rated at 315W, in warmer climates may give one 200W for 6 hours without reorienting it to catch more sun.  That is about 19 cents of electricity.  So one could use all 11 cents of electricity at night, or with planning, 19 cents, during the day on most days.  That is enough for most-day use of:    - a small microwave on high for 20 minutes/day or minimal use of a water maker for 2 people (8gal/day) plus  - and electric water pressure pump plus  - a modest LED TV/display screen for 2 hours plus,  - a modest laptop, turned off when not used plus,  - some modest interior LED lights.  A wind generator rated at 1000W might give as a lower average 120W for 8 hours, up to an average of 250W for 24 hours in a constantly breezy anchorage.   That is between 16 cents and $1 per day.  Regular use of a DC-powered water maker is within reach on that power budget.  On surplus energy days, one can charge the starting and boat systems batteries up without running the engine at all.   If one is planning to use the boat for years, the cost of electricity on the boat can make the investment in the 24V house batteries worth it.  Why the bother with 24V?   Because mass-produced, lowest $/Watt industrial solar panels, available up to 315 Watts in a panel now, are typically maximum power point around 30-33V, which is idea for a high performance maximum power point 24V charge controller.   Why make a system decision based on inexpensive solar?  Because though wind is a better total average in a year source of power than solar, the sun comes up every day, and the wind might not blow for several days.   Now, ideally, a 30-33V panel can be hooked into a very expensive maximum power point 12V charge controller, but, if you look at the efficiency graphs, I have yet to see a charge controller with the same energy delivery efficiency at 12V as it has at 24V.   Secondly, some MPP chargers for 12V systems simply use a model for a 17V solar system as their operating characteristic -- they do not actually measure the MPP of the actual system, so, if one feeds 30-33V volts into a modestly priced 12V charge controller, one might find very low efficiencies.  Remember, a 24V battery system will float up to 28V when in charge, so, the voltage of the panels and batteries nearly match, making the MPP task of the buck/boost circuit much more efficient. One might consider group D batteries (+$400 to make a 24V string) and double storage to bridge days that are both low-wind and overcast, and that is the recommendation for land-based systems, invest in batteries over generation.   On the water with more reliable wind closer to the water surface (as opposed to 200 feet above ground on land).  I would consider more wind or a taft rail water turbine to use when sailing: https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/29_4/features/Towed-Water-Generator_4784-1.html I am convinced there is an origami-way to do this for less than $400 that involves three pieces of metal welded onto a hub, a section of stainless tube, and a big water pump pulley to drive a car alternator at higher RPMs than the prop.       Circling back to isolation, a 120V to 24V battery charger puts out double the power for the same Amps, and they might be more industrial grade, like used for commercial vehicles, and less consumer grade.    It would up the output of the charger-inverter combination to act as an isolator. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger     All the older corded power tools had compound brushed motors and would run on AC or DC.  Many welders had a 120vdc outlet for running a grinder.  With the advent of trigger speed controls DC is longer usable as the speed controllers use a chopper circuit to trim off part of the sine wave from AC to get speed control.   Switching power supplies and VFDs too rectify the AC to DC as the first step, so you can power them with DC no problem.   Gary H. Lucas   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger       Hi Darren,   >Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the >world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of >shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts >120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always >deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen.   I found some good plastic case, double insulated, switching power supply battery chargers (no massive transformer) at Canadian Tire, took one apart, and the first element after the AC hookup is a bridge rectifier.   This suggests they might also run from 130-250V DC.      I created a variable DC power supply, good for 10Amps and 100-180VDC, and I have been using it test hand tools (universal motors with brushes) and high efficiency lightbulbs to see which ones are happy on DC.   I have not tested the chargers yet.  BTW, no flames yet, but some tools did not turn -- disconnect quickly no damage -- and one worked fine but the trigger burned and it would not stop.     It adds one more possibility if your charger likes DC also.    If they do have a bridge rectifier first, then they will probably like 400Hz also which comes in handy if you come across some military/aerospace salvage -- high quality for cheap.   The charger might also run from your weldernator, giving you an option if the alternator is pooched.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 3:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger     Thanks Brian, that's useful.  If the Promariner Chassis ground only connects to DC negative and is not connected to the incoming shoreside ground then it could work. My logic is like this:  Any metal boat should have the incoming AC ground isolated from the hull for corrosion reasons.  This can be achieved by an isolation transformer, but you could also do it with a marine battery charger where the AC ground is isolated from the DC negative (some shore-based chargers do not do this).  If your incoming AC only goes to a battery charger and you only use AC aboard that is from an inverter, then you eliminate the corrosion problems associated with a shore-based ground.  You still ground the inverter to the hull and thus maintain AC safety.  This system has the limitation that the momentary AC load is limited by the inverter and the long-term AC load is limited by your battery charger.   However, this would be more than enough to do all the things we normally do at anchor and even some other luxuries we don't normally have (e.g. electric kettle). As we refit our boat I've worked towards low current consumption and mostly 12V devices.  The only real desire for AC comes from an easy way to keep the batteries fully charged during a cloudy BC winter.  Running all AC loads through the inverter also means that anywhere in the world you go, you don't need to worry about the voltage and frequency of shoreside AC.  The Promariner 1240P charger automatically accepts 120/230 VAC at 50 or 60Hz from shoreside and your inverter will always deliver the voltage/frequency you've chosen. Darren On 17-12-01 10:38 AM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The Promariner 1240P only connects to Dc positive and negative. its chassis ground also connects to DC negative. There would only be a connection to the hull if the DC system is grounded to it . If the Dc system is floating there would be no connection to the hull.   Not sure how it could act as an isolation transformer though as its output is DC only.   A better choice would be a Victron isolation transformer on the incoming AC. This allows you to choose either 120 or 240 volts output regardless of input as well as offering total AC isolation from shore power.   | 34541|34471|2017-12-02 18:05:46|brentswain38|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for |I ran my  variable speed skill 12 volt drill on DC for a couple of decades, before it crapped out; from old age, I presume.No problem.Saw a story on Discovery Channel about an airliner being brought down from lithium batteries catching fire, which they sometimes do, spontaneously.Started storing my drill battery on a  stainless counter top.| 34542|34471|2017-12-02 18:11:55|brentswain38|Re: Fire Port|It burned a couple sq feet of foam, and right thru a 2x4, a fire which would have taken off, had it had air.I just met another client who had corrosion around a bilge pump. He filled the deep pit it caused with weld, ground it smooth, epoxied it, and insulated the bilge pump wire. No further problems.| 34543|34473|2017-12-02 18:25:02|brentswain38|Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :They are as slow as bureaucrat's brain. If capsized, they will stay capsized. After  finishing his circumnavigation  Slocum said that some would conclude that his boat was the best for the job, but he said there were plenty of other boats which would have been far better suited for his circumnavigation.Spray was simply what he had.No one paid any attention to  his advice, and missed the point completely.I once hitched a ride with a guy who had started one. After 3 years building the framework, he calculated how many feet  of weld the plating required.He then put the framework on a trailer , drove it to the dump, took the plates off the trailer, and left it there. He considered that the wisest move he ever made on that boat. That is typical  of what you get when you have a steel boat designed by someone with zero hands on steel boat building experience.If this is a Roberts Spray series sailboat; Don't buy it. They take half a gale to come about. Conversely they are very directionally stable. I bought plans for a steel Spray decades ago and I was talking to Larry Paradey who said don't build it because he had seen a number of them in his travels that couldn't manoeuvre properly. From: "Larry Bishop larrybishop279@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 .. Please advise https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.htmlROBERTS 44 , professionally built in 94, launched and lived on for 15 years, then taken out and located in present location, OUTSIDE Victoria in fenced yard where it can remain and be worked on, or launch and take to your marina. This b oat comes with a new 6 cyl PERKINS, GEAR, SHAFT PROP ETC, .these are installed but have never been hooked up.Hull is in fantastic condition, but needs a full interior, and mast and sails if that s what you want, WOULD MAKE A PERFECT LIVEABOARD POWER BOAT. Design is Roberts most famous, over 2,000 built, most in steel. Will look at most trades, cash also works, go figure.I don t do the text thing, phone show contact info for info. -------- Original message --------From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" Date:11-13-2017  6:46 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Craigslist Roberts 44 ..  Please advise Couldn't open it for a look ,but for a resourceful builder-  scrounger , $70 K sounds high, given how much used gear is available these days.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Have been up and down the coast, checking out sailboats.Steel sailboats are of interest, despite potential corrosion problems.Ran across an advertisement in Craigslist for a Roberts 44:https://victoria.craigslist.ca/boa/d/roberts-44-steel-maruitius/6333124025.htmlA knowledgeable welder friend (MG) has indicated it would cost $70k to finish the sailboat.Not looking for teak, more of a workshop feel... Is this estimate correct?Surprised to see 60' steel sailboats, on par with concrete sailboat sizes.Origami sailboats also have better lines than the 50' steel sailboats around.Surprised and disappointed that aluminum is more expensive than steel, since aluminum should be more malleable, easier to shape, and although zinc would not protect aluminum from corrosion.What would be the cost of a 44' origami sailboat in steel or aluminum?| 34544|34471|2017-12-02 18:57:26|Matt Malone|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | I am assuming you mean 120V, because a 12V variable speed might be of a completely different technology of speed control. 120V variable speed on DC might not work, might become on/off only, might work, might fail.  Best not to try DC on any variable speed tool one is really attached to.  I bought a single speed drill just for DC. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 2, 18:05 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I ran my  variable speed skill 12 volt drill on DC for a couple of decades, before it crapped out; from old age, I presume. No problem. Saw a story on Discovery Channel about an airliner being brought down from lithium batteries catching fire, which they sometimes do, spontaneously. Started storing my drill battery on a  stainless counter top. | 34545|34471|2017-12-03 15:03:03|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | My approach to running power tools on 12V is a bit different.  I convert old battery-based tools to use the 12v shipboard power.  There are tons of old NiCd power tools around that can be had for next to nothing because the batteries are dead.  You can remove the batteries, add a appropriately sized DC power cord and you are good to go.  You don't need to worry about the AC switches and you get all the speed control features that were built into the tool. I've only converted tools made for 10V and 12V battery packs, but I suspect anything between 8 and 18V would probably be fine (8v running faster than normal and 18V running slower than normal).  I've yet to take apart a lithium based tool, so that would be experiment that would depend on whether the battery management system is built into the battery pack or the tool, or whether both have some electronics that would cause trouble.  Things like a circular saw will need more power than can be easily had in 12V, so in those cases I would still use an large inverter. There are benefits to a 24V house bank, but you can still end up needing a DC-DC converter for all your 12V loads.  You may have quite a few 12V loads, as there are a lot of boat bits that only come in 12V, not 24V.  That DC-DC converter is going to eat up some of your efficiency, and if you have your navigational instruments setup through it, then you've added another failure point to critical system (rigging you nav instruments to your start battery is one way around this).  There is a lot less choice in 24V equipment and it is often more expensive than the equivalent 12V unit. In terms of efficiency, I think a permanent magnet motor is likely a better choice than an alternator for a towed generator.  If I were to start experimenting I would start with low KV motor hooked to a cheap pwm solar controller.  A recycled treadmill could be the source of the motor and there are a lot of choices of solar controllers.  Another option might be a brushless motor (such as a bicycle hub motor) with a bridge rectifier to convert 3-phase AC into a DC output.  This could then be run to a DC-DC converter.  Both of these DC motors would be more efficient than the alternator.  Given that the power produced isn't going to be that great, efficiency matters.  Remember that your propeller cannot be a boat propeller just run backwards, as this is really inefficient, you would need a prop with the blades rotated 180 degrees from a regular propulsion prop.  Darren On 17-12-02 10:01 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Gary is absolutely right.  Do not attempt to run any variable speed drills or like tools on DC.   I would recommend considering a 24V hotel load battery string.   Why the bother with 24V?   Because mass-produced, lowest $/Watt industrial solar panels, available up to 315 Watts in a panel now, are typically maximum power point around 30-33V, which is idea for a high performance maximum power point 24V charge controller.   Why make a system decision based on inexpensive solar?  Because though wind is a better total average in a year source of power than solar, the sun comes up every day, and the wind might not blow for several days.   One might consider group D batteries (+$400 to make a 24V string) and double storage to bridge days that are both low-wind and overcast, and that is the recommendation for land-based systems, invest in batteries over generation.   On the water with more reliable wind closer to the water surface (as opposed to 200 feet above ground on land).  I would consider more wind or a taft rail water turbine to use when sailing: https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/29_4/features/Towed-Water-Generator_4784-1.html I am convinced there is an origami-way to do this for less than $400 that involves three pieces of metal welded onto a hub, a section of stainless tube, and a big water pump pulley to drive a car alternator at higher RPMs than the prop.       Circling back to isolation, a 120V to 24V battery charger puts out double the power for the same Amps, and they might be more industrial grade, like used for commercial vehicles, and less consumer grade.    It would up the output of the charger-inverter combination to act as an isolator. Matt | 34546|34471|2017-12-03 15:27:56|Matt Malone|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | All those are good ideas Darren, I have converted 15V and 18V from battery to 12V.  In fact one drill is slated for an auto helm. If your 24v is two 12V batteries, there is no problem.  Have 2 voltmeters and a dpdt swapper switch to switch single 12V loads between the two halves of 24V --- no DC grounding to the hull allowed, either the 24V batteries float, or better, all loads float or even better, everything floats.   If you use jumpers to start, cut all loads first so as not to short a battery through the hull and starter case and engine and the swapper switch.   Switch the dpdt switch when one 12V is higher than current one to maintain balance in the 24V string. Again, identical pairs of loads, just put them on opposite batteries and leave them there.  Half the nav lights on one aide, half the cabin lights etc and use all 12V loads. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 3:03:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     My approach to running power tools on 12V is a bit different.  I convert old battery-based tools to use the 12v shipboard power.  There are tons of old NiCd power tools around that can be had for next to nothing because the batteries are dead.  You can remove the batteries, add a appropriately sized DC power cord and you are good to go.  You don't need to worry about the AC switches and you get all the speed control features that were built into the tool. I've only converted tools made for 10V and 12V battery packs, but I suspect anything between 8 and 18V would probably be fine (8v running faster than normal and 18V running slower than normal).  I've yet to take apart a lithium based tool, so that would be experiment that would depend on whether the battery management system is built into the battery pack or the tool, or whether both have some electronics that would cause trouble.  Things like a circular saw will need more power than can be easily had in 12V, so in those cases I would still use an large inverter. There are benefits to a 24V house bank, but you can still end up needing a DC-DC converter for all your 12V loads.  You may have quite a few 12V loads, as there are a lot of boat bits that only come in 12V, not 24V.  That DC-DC converter is going to eat up some of your efficiency, and if you have your navigational instruments setup through it, then you've added another failure point to critical system (rigging you nav instruments to your start battery is one way around this).  There is a lot less choice in 24V equipment and it is often more expensive than the equivalent 12V unit. In terms of efficiency, I think a permanent magnet motor is likely a better choice than an alternator for a towed generator.  If I were to start experimenting I would start with low KV motor hooked to a cheap pwm solar controller.  A recycled treadmill could be the source of the motor and there are a lot of choices of solar controllers.  Another option might be a brushless motor (such as a bicycle hub motor) with a bridge rectifier to convert 3-phase AC into a DC output.  This could then be run to a DC-DC converter.  Both of these DC motors would be more efficient than the alternator.  Given that the power produced isn't going to be that great, efficiency matters.  Remember that your propeller cannot be a boat propeller just run backwards, as this is really inefficient, you would need a prop with the blades rotated 180 degrees from a regular propulsion prop.  Darren On 17-12-02 10:01 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Gary is absolutely right.  Do not attempt to run any variable speed drills or like tools on DC.   I would recommend considering a 24V hotel load battery string.   Why the bother with 24V?   Because mass-produced, lowest $/Watt industrial solar panels, available up to 315 Watts in a panel now, are typically maximum power point around 30-33V, which is idea for a high performance maximum power point 24V charge controller.   Why make a system decision based on inexpensive solar?  Because though wind is a better total average in a year source of power than solar, the sun comes up every day, and the wind might not blow for several days.   One might consider group D batteries (+$400 to make a 24V string) and double storage to bridge days that are both low-wind and overcast, and that is the recommendation for land-based systems, invest in batteries over generation.   On the water with more reliable wind closer to the water surface (as opposed to 200 feet above ground on land).  I would consider more wind or a taft rail water turbine to use when sailing: https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/29_4/features/Towed-Water-Generator_4784-1.html I am convinced there is an origami-way to do this for less than $400 that involves three pieces of metal welded onto a hub, a section of stainless tube, and a big water pump pulley to drive a car alternator at higher RPMs than the prop.       Circling back to isolation, a 120V to 24V battery charger puts out double the power for the same Amps, and they might be more industrial grade, like used for commercial vehicles, and less consumer grade.    It would up the output of the charger-inverter combination to act as an isolator. Matt | 34547|34471|2017-12-04 14:45:28|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? | 34548|34471|2017-12-04 18:53:16|brentswain38|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for |A friend ran his 8 volt drill on 12 volts. No problem, but it ran super fast.| 34549|34471|2017-12-05 21:18:14|garyhlucas|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me?| 34550|34471|2017-12-05 21:47:50|Aaron|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for |Will a standard house GFCI (AC) work with DC Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:18 PM, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 -- #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 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#ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871 #ygrps-yiv-2125749312yiv9560533871ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2125749312 | 34551|34471|2017-12-05 22:37:55|Matt Malone|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | I will bet no GFCI will work on DC.  They must detect a current difference between hot and neutral return and it is far easier to detect AC current with a winding on a core.  Certainly not every GFCI can work on DC. Matt From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 21:47 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Will a standard house GFCI (AC) work with DC  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:18 PM, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? | 34552|34471|2017-12-05 22:43:19|Matt Malone|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | A GFCI breaker on the inverter output, and a GFCI outlet in the cabin will certainly reduce the chance of problems and shocks. Matt From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 21:18 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? | 34553|34471|2017-12-05 22:48:30|Aaron|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for |Back to the main issue of AC shore power an industrial  GFCI on a cord would be a perfect solution to tell if you have a stray AC ground current in the area you are plugged into. If your GFCI trips then move to a different place or don't plug in for chargingSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:43 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   A GFCI breaker on the inverter output, and a GFCI outlet in the cabin will certainly reduce the chance of problems and shocks. Matt From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 21:18 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 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do with corrosion on a metal boat, or any boat. A GFCI cares not if there is a small current on the ground wire. It only cares that there is less than 5mV (typically) difference between the hot and neutral wires. Corrosion is not caused by AC, but by DC current that enters the boat  by travelling along the AC ground wire. Without a galvanic isolator, or ideally isolation transformer, it will exist as you are connected to every boat on the same circuit through the ground.  On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Back to the main issue of AC shore power an industrial  GFCI on a cord would be a perfect solution to tell if you have a stray AC ground current in the area you are plugged into. If your GFCI trips then move to a different place or don't plug in for chargingSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:43 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   A GFCI breaker on the inverter output, and a GFCI outlet in the cabin will certainly reduce the chance of problems and shocks. Matt From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 21:18 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? -- CheersBrian | 34555|34471|2017-12-05 23:19:58|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | Gary, the concern was that the circuit has a 30amp breaker and if you use the 12ga extension cord or and the commercially available 30 to 15 amp pigtail you are introducing 15amp components into a 30amp circuit.  I had another member contact me offline and confirm that the correct way to protect the circuit would be to add your own breaker box just after you plug into the pedestal.  However, lots of marinas won't like an unknown box plugged into their pedestal and that may prove to be more trouble than it's worth. It may be simpler just to stick with the 30 amp cord. I've looked at ELCI (basically a whole boat marine version of a GFCI that trips at 30ma rather than 5ma that is common for GFCI), and think it is a good idea.  Actually, I think it would be even better to have the ELCI/GFCI at the plug end of your cord so you protect yourself from failed insulation in the cord that have a small chance of energizing the boat and the wire around it.  On 17-12-05 06:16 PM, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? | 34556|34471|2017-12-05 23:34:15|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | GFCI won't work with DC, but would work with incoming AC.  However, it is better to look for something labelled ELCI as this trips at 30ma instead of the 5ma more common on a GFCI.  30ma is still considered sufficient to protect life and would limit nuisance trips.  In Europe they call the same thing an RCD and I think they use 30ma everywhere, but I'm not sure about that.  There are industrial ELCI available really inexpensively in the 15A range, but a bit more if you want something that will do 30A.  I like the idea of having the ELCI at the pedestal if you got the kind that attaches inline with your power cord.  An ABYC surveyor might not like the ELCI on the end of the cord because if someone switched the power cord on the boat you could remove the protection.  Either way you still need breakers in the boat.  All of this is only AC and is only looking at protecting life from AC. On 17-12-05 06:47 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Will a standard house GFCI (AC) work with DC  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:18 PM, gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, No different than at home.  Most circuits have a 15 amp breaker, some a 20.  You plug in a TV, lamp, cell phone charger, etc, none of which draw more than a fraction of that.  Safe products have an internal fuse that protects the device and the cord from overload, but not from a short circuit in the cord.  A short circuit in the cord will trip the 15 amp breaker in your panel with no problem.  However short circuits are what everyone talks about, but they seldom cause a fire.  What causes a fire is a high resistance fault.  A high resistance fault, like a loose connection, can draw a current up to the breaker rating without tripping it ever.  But that is a lot of power generating heat and that starts a fire.  Of course everyone says “ The breaker or fuse failed!” That simply isn’t the case.  There are devices now that are similar to a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) called a AFCI (arc fault interrupter) that can detect the unique characteristics of arcing and open the circuit.  Put a fuse right at the cord connection on your boat and you’ll be as well protected as is feasible using a fuse or circuit breaker.  A GFCI on circuits in a boat would detect grounds that could damage the hull or be dangerous. An arc fault breaker could detect anything arcing as well.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for practical power and inexpensive components     As I continue down the path to run all the AC for my boat through a battery charger to isolate the ground and then to an inverter for AC, I've got as far as the shorepower cord.  It seems like there is no good reason to carry our old bulky 30A shorepower cord if all I want is about 7amps AC @ 120V to power the 40 amp battery charger.  A 50' 12-gauge cord would be easier to stow and more practical than the common 25' 10-gauge cord for the usual 30amp service.  However, 30amp dock power is the most common available.  It seems like an adapter might solve this, but despite the fact that they are commercially available, this seems inherently unsafe.  If you take a 30amp male to 15amp female pigtail like this one and plug in a 12 gauge cord with 15 amp plugs into it aren't you asking for trouble?  The circuit is protected by the 30amp breaker at the dock pedestal and it seems like a fault or load of less than 30 amps could still end up with a fire hazard on the 15amp plugs and cord.  Or, is it assumed that there is a 15amp breaker in the boat and it protects most of the circuit (except for a fault in the power cord)??  I feel like I've overlooked something given that the pigtails are commercially available with the regular approval agency stamps.  Can someone enlighten me? | 34557|34471|2017-12-05 23:44:09|Darren Bos|Re: AC Isolation Transformer Battery Charger and using DC or AC for | Agreed, the GFCI only deals with live and neutral whereas it is the DC coming over the ground wire that is causing corrosion.  In terms of preventing injury, the one thing I'd add is that it would be nice to have a GFCI/ELCI at the dockside power pedestal.  Some regions apparently mandate that marinas have GFCI (or ELCI or RCD) protection at the dockside pedestal.  However, I've plugged in lots of places in BC with no such protection.  With a metal boat is seems like worn insulation on the shorepower cord could energize the boat sufficiently to give a shock or kill a swimmer in the water without ever tripping a breaker.  The standard ABYC ELCI located on the boats AC panel also wouldn't protect against this. On 17-12-05 08:02 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote:   A GFCI is a safety item that can prevent injury but has nothing to do with corrosion on a metal boat, or any boat. A GFCI cares not if there is a small current on the ground wire. It only cares that there is less than 5mV (typically) difference between the hot and neutral wires. Corrosion is not caused by AC, but by DC current that enters the boat  by travelling along the AC ground wire. Without a galvanic isolator, or ideally isolation transformer, it will exist as you are connected to every boat on the same circuit through the ground.  | 34558|34558|2017-12-13 16:29:44|cuencopatagonia|BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Dear Brent SwainI found a BS26 half built in a turnery in the industrial park of my City Puerto Madryn (Peninsula Valdez) Chubut Argentina.I intend to buy it to finish it and put it to surf !!the hull is complete, the interiors are missing, it has an R12 naphtero engine, which I want to change, what features should have an adequate engine for this boat?Is there a drawing of how to make the interiors of the ship? I mean beds and tables, stoves, etc.GreetingsJuan Antognini| 34559|34558|2017-12-13 16:33:24|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|7 1/2 to 10 hp diesel should work well for that boat.Send my your postal address ( at brentswain38@...) and I will send you  some drawings.Dear Brent SwainI found a BS26 half built in a turnery in the industrial park of my City Puerto Madryn (Peninsula Valdez) Chubut Argentina.I intend to buy it to finish it and put it to surf !!the hull is complete, the interiors are missing, it has an R12 naphtero engine, which I want to change, what features should have an adequate engine for this boat?Is there a drawing of how to make the interiors of the ship? I mean beds and tables, stoves, etc.GreetingsJuan Antognini| 34560|34558|2017-12-13 16:36:28|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My book has the drawings for the wood stove, anchor winch,  windvane,  etc etc. The English version is $20 the Spanish version $25, along with $20 for overseas airmail postage, to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V07 1/2 to 10 hp diesel should work well for that boat.Send my your postal address ( at brentswain38@...) and I will send you  some drawings.Dear Brent SwainI found a BS26 half built in a turnery in the industrial park of my City Puerto Madryn (Peninsula Valdez) Chubut Argentina.I intend to buy it to finish it and put it to surf !!the hull is complete, the interiors are missing, it has an R12 naphtero engine, which I want to change, what features should have an adequate engine for this boat?Is there a drawing of how to make the interiors of the ship? I mean beds and tables, stoves, etc.GreetingsJuan Antognini| 34561|34558|2017-12-14 15:30:22|Matt Malone|Rescued Sailors| This is just entertainment now.   This is a story from late October, but I was curious to see what had become of the incident as it seemed to be descending into less and less credibility as it was fading from the news.   I never would have guessed this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5063707/Bungling-yachtswoman-kinky-sailor-dominatrix.html Bungling yachtswomen who was lost at sea worked as a dominatrix www.dailymail.co.uk It has been uncovered that one of the women rescued at sea, Jennifer Appel, worked as a dominatrix.Appel 48, and Tasha Fuiava, 27, say they were lost at sea for ... But it goes on: http://www.crazyontap.com/topic.php?TopicId=330743 The smallest question that circles back out of this is, if she can do the things in those photographs, how the heck could she be unable to climb the mast on at least one day to do something about the rigging?   You would think she would have some competence with knots.   Matt | 34562|34562|2017-12-15 08:13:05|Alex Bar|Hull lines|Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising?| 34563|34562|2017-12-15 08:17:47|mountain man|Re: Hull lines| I have difficulty to believe that flat bottom yachts are comfortable in rough seas On Dec 15, 2017, at 8:13 AM, "Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast. Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34564|34562|2017-12-15 09:32:43|J Fisher|Re: Hull lines|Imho it is a bad design direction for cruising yachts.  The wide stern really only works when sailed flat.  Since movable ballast is not an option they tend to sail bow down when going upwind.  Not well balanced and heel angle influences trim.  Fine off the wind, but not as good into the wind. I think it is designers following a trend more than good design.  For reference, look at the designs in the iom model class.  First skinny, then wide stern, now back to a narrower boat.  Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:13, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34565|34562|2017-12-15 10:46:35|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| One should read "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by C J  Marchaj.   Really.  It is a tough read but the author gives plenty of examples.  The part of race-inspired boats that makes me  nervous is the vertical bow and very little shear leaving a relatively low bow.   I think it was Moitessier who wrote, the ends of the boat should stay out of the water - speaking to shear as essential.  Every design is a compromise between factors.  The mix of compromise that is best suited to long term cruising is not unknown. Marchaj has lots to say that is worth reading because it is not just opinion, it is based on good mathematical analysis. The wide flat sterns seem like the handle on the lever that buries the bow and pitch-poles the boat that suffers from insufficient shear.  It is an unlikely event, but a small but greater chance of catastrophe resulting from variations from accepted and scientifically recognized design principles one has to ask, what is the upside to balance this. Speed is nice but one cannot outrun everything, long term.  If one were sailing from island to island 2-3 days max with perfect knowledge of weather because the hops are short, and one can choose departures, then it might be a very nice boat. If one choses a different hull line, one more conservative, it is not because one intends to ignore weather forecasts.  It might be because one wants to be cautious, knowing 5-6 days out, the forecast is often badly wrong in some areas owing to unequal quality in base weather data.  Then there are all the other unknowns that also only grow larger as time from shore increases. Matt From: J Fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 15, 09:32 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Imho it is a bad design direction for cruising yachts.  The wide stern really only works when sailed flat.  Since movable ballast is not an option they tend to sail bow down when going upwind.  Not well balanced and heel angle influences trim.  Fine off the wind, but not as good into the wind.  I think it is designers following a trend more than good design.   For reference, look at the designs in the iom model class.  First skinny, then wide stern, now back to a narrower boat.   Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:13, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast. Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34566|34562|2017-12-15 11:24:00|prairiemaidca|Re: Hull lines|To understand just how well a Swain 36 behaves in rough water you really have to experience it.  I've had Prairie Maid out in the straight in some really bad short steep crap and the ride is remarkable.  Apart from the occasional waves breaking over the bow and down the decks the hull works as well as anyone could expect.  I've been in large swells off the stern quarter in a 40ft. French production boat that carried it's beam all the way aft and the girl kept lifting her butt and swaying like a call girl walking down the street on a pay night.  A couple of my crew were turning green and not very happy.  I ran the numbers from a formula that I found one time to calculate how well a boat should ride and the Swain 36 was right up there with the best of the best.  Martin  (Prairie Maid)| 34567|34562|2017-12-15 11:26:34|mountain man|Re: Hull lines| Could you give us that formula?? Martin On Dec 15, 2017, at 11:24 AM, "losforsters@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   To understand just how well a Swain 36 behaves in rough water you really have to experience it.  I've had Prairie Maid out in the straight in some really bad short steep crap and the ride is remarkable.  Apart from the occasional waves breaking over the bow and down the decks the hull works as well as anyone could expect.  I've been in large swells off the stern quarter in a 40ft. French production boat that carried it's beam all the way aft and the girl kept lifting her butt and swaying like a call girl walking down the street on a pay night.  A couple of my crew were turning green and not very happy.  I ran the numbers from a formula that I found one time to calculate how well a boat should ride and the Swain 36 was right up there with the best of the best.   Martin  (Prairie Maid) | 34568|34562|2017-12-15 11:28:55|Jfisher|Re: Hull lines|Different design choices for different uses is very true.  As mostly a model sailer and now free sail models, one of the main criteria is good balance.  So we want the boat to go straight no matter the heel angle.  When talking to the designer of my day sailer I commented that it was well balanced until it really started to heel, then it rounds up.  He replied, that's what I designed it to do.  He wants his designs to round up when really pressed to help the boat save itself.  Not needed or desired in our models as they have huge ballast ratios and will fully recover, unlike a centerboarder where the crew is ballast.  Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2017, at 08:46, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   One should read "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by C J  Marchaj.   Really.  It is a tough read but the author gives plenty of examples.  The part of race-inspired boats that makes me  nervous is the vertical bow and very little shear leaving a relatively low bow.   I think it was Moitessier who wrote, the ends of the boat should stay out of the water - speaking to shear as essential.  Every design is a compromise between factors.  The mix of compromise that is best suited to long term cruising is not unknown. Marchaj has lots to say that is worth reading because it is not just opinion, it is based on good mathematical analysis. The wide flat sterns seem like the handle on the lever that buries the bow and pitch-poles the boat that suffers from insufficient shear.  It is an unlikely event, but a small but greater chance of catastrophe resulting from variations from accepted and scientifically recognized design principles one has to ask, what is the upside to balance this. Speed is nice but one cannot outrun everything, long term.  If one were sailing from island to island 2-3 days max with perfect knowledge of weather because the hops are short, and one can choose departures, then it might be a very nice boat. If one choses a different hull line, one more conservative, it is not because one intends to ignore weather forecasts.  It might be because one wants to be cautious, knowing 5-6 days out, the forecast is often badly wrong in some areas owing to unequal quality in base weather data.  Then there are all the other unknowns that also only grow larger as time from shore increases. Matt From: J Fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 15, 09:32 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Imho it is a bad design direction for cruising yachts.  The wide stern really only works when sailed flat.  Since movable ballast is not an option they tend to sail bow down when going upwind.  Not well balanced and heel angle influences trim.  Fine off the wind, but not as good into the wind.  I think it is designers following a trend more than good design.   For reference, look at the designs in the iom model class.  First skinny, then wide stern, now back to a narrower boat.   Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:13, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast. Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34569|34562|2017-12-15 12:54:12|prairiemaidca|Re: Hull lines|I found and run that formula about 20 years ago.  I just came across it somewhere on the net and plugged in the numbers from a Swain 36 and it spit out a number that was in the range of Swans and Hinkleys etc.  I just tried a search for it but I'm not finding it.  I'm sure one of the more computer literate in the group will come up with it.  I'm not much into the academic side of the world I just know it works from experience.  My sail maker was on board the day we tried the boat for the first time under sail and he was very impressed with how balanced the boat was.  Even with bulwark pipe under water she was fine.  Having seen that I knew right away why Brent has that lovely piece across the deck to divert the water from being a river into the cockpit.  It did it's job nicely.  Martin  (Prairie Maid)| 34570|34562|2017-12-15 14:52:44|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising?| 34571|34562|2017-12-16 04:29:03|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Ok, thanks, but let me imagine there is a compromise between 40/50 years ago hull shapes and nowdays trend large sterns.Think also about advantages of large sterns like confort, trade winds speed, large increment of inside volume and maybe not so bad aesthetics.Last but not least a very functional cockpit with many possible pragmatic options.Mini transat small yachts cross the ocean, open 60 do the same around the world. Ok, speed is the first goal to them and not safety, but do they really soffer underwater bows?As an example, Ovni alluminium yachts, although quite large sterns, are a sort of compromise?Maybe is also a matter of underwater hull lines...2017-12-15 16:46 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   One should read "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by C J  Marchaj.   Really.  It is a tough read but the author gives plenty of examples.  The part of race-inspired boats that makes me  nervous is the vertical bow and very little shear leaving a relatively low bow.   I think it was Moitessier who wrote, the ends of the boat should stay out of the water - speaking to shear as essential.  Every design is a compromise between factors.  The mix of compromise that is best suited to long term cruising is not unknown. Marchaj has lots to say that is worth reading because it is not just opinion, it is based on good mathematical analysis. The wide flat sterns seem like the handle on the lever that buries the bow and pitch-poles the boat that suffers from insufficient shear.  It is an unlikely event, but a small but greater chance of catastrophe resulting from variations from accepted and scientifically recognized design principles one has to ask, what is the upside to balance this. Speed is nice but one cannot outrun everything, long term.  If one were sailing from island to island 2-3 days max with perfect knowledge of weather because the hops are short, and one can choose departures, then it might be a very nice boat. If one choses a different hull line, one more conservative, it is not because one intends to ignore weather forecasts.  It might be because one wants to be cautious, knowing 5-6 days out, the forecast is often badly wrong in some areas owing to unequal quality in base weather data.  Then there are all the other unknowns that also only grow larger as time from shore increases. Matt From: J Fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 15, 09:32 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Imho it is a bad design direction for cruising yachts.  The wide stern really only works when sailed flat.  Since movable ballast is not an option they tend to sail bow down when going upwind.  Not well balanced and heel angle influences trim.  Fine off the wind, but not as good into the wind.  I think it is designers following a trend more than good design.   For reference, look at the designs in the iom model class.  First skinny, then wide stern, now back to a narrower boat.   Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:13, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast. Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34572|34562|2017-12-16 04:30:08|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Where can we see a Greg Janes yacht building pictures?2017-12-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34573|34562|2017-12-16 09:56:44|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| Alex, The open 60 boats are nearly empty inside and therefore float high.    They are not made 60 feet long to carry the volume personal cargo and conveniences that would require a 60 foot boat, like a cruising boat would.    No doubt they carry an anchor, and some aircraft cable, not tons of chain.   Yes, they have a fresh water tank, likely sized or underfilled so as to accommodate one person.   They also spend $50,000+ per race just on weather data to be in the best place they can.   And in every race it seems there are several capsizes and even a pitch-pole or two, even with ridiculously deep canting keels with tungsten bulbs.  It is more of a surf board, with a density far lower than a typical cruiser would have.   If one took an Open 60 and loaded it would an interior that suits a 60, several cabins for instance, a full bathroom in addition to a head, and other conveniences, plus all the extra gear one would have as a live-aboard cruiser -- that would be tons of stuff.   Of course the first thing one would do is shorten that keel to half its length or less meaning doubling the weight of the ballast, and to keep costs under control, it would be lead not tungsten, so either even more weight, or less stability.  Without the $50,000 a year for weather data looking ahead, one can see how it would be a very different boat from the one that was light and stripped down and already prone to planting its bow from time to time.   I have imagined such a boat as a cruiser, the advantage of an expansive flat interior deck, even if there were not a lot of head room everywhere.   The cockpits have to be essentially open in the back so that the boat does not become a giant wallowing jacuzzi whenever swamped at the rear by a wave.   That open back feels like something I would really like in the Caribbean, but something undesired to me, at night in steep waves. I have glanced at some photos of the Ovni aluminium yachts.  They look like very nice boats.   They are sort of a cross between the Open 60 look, and the slightly wider-stern cruising yachts from the 1980s.   They do have some shear lifting the bow slightly.     Some have a retractable keel, and believe me, I have considered that too, so I am not dismissing any boat simply for having a retractable keel.   It would be a very nice movable cottage where the waves are gentle so one can come in very shallow, say in some favourable cove in the Caribbean.   In the sun, in the right spot, I am sure it is the optimal boat.    I do not want to feel so constrained by a boat though.   It seems to me in a BS, and you could get really close to shore and even intentionally ground on the twin keels, even with some rocks around.  If a hundred extra square feet of deck space is really important -- and it may not even be that -- and that favourable cove has no regulations against tents, then a very large tent and awning or tarp, and over-sized cots fold up really small and would fit in the BS and one could set up a campsite of over 1000 square feet on the beach.   If 100 extra square feet of deck is so important, make the boat 10 feet longer and consider a center cockpit design.  http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2451 That looks like an eminently origami-able layout.   One might make the entire rear deck flat and raised, not like a doghouse (flush deck) so that it becomes a multi-use area.  It might become a place for deck chairs and drinks, with a removable awning and table for that favourable cove, while retaining the more traditional and secure center cockpit.  When under way, it is an expansive area to secure-down deployable gear, like the dingy, or kayaks.  Below, there is room for a luxurious aft cabin or a fabrication shop for the truly independent-minded cruiser.   Or instead, one could even have removable, canting solar panels on the aft deck (a mutli-use area), to more efficiently catch power, instead of or in addition to having them cantilevered off the stern above the davits.      Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 4:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     Ok, thanks, but let me imagine there is a compromise between 40/50 years ago hull shapes and nowdays trend large sterns. Think also about advantages of large sterns like confort, trade winds speed, large increment of inside volume and maybe not so bad aesthetics.Last but not least a very functional cockpit with many possible pragmatic options. Mini transat small yachts cross the ocean, open 60 do the same around the world. Ok, speed is the first goal to them and not safety, but do they really soffer underwater bows? As an example, Ovni alluminium yachts, although quite large sterns, are a sort of compromise? Maybe is also a matter of underwater hull lines... 2017-12-15 16:46 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   One should read "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by C J  Marchaj.   Really.  It is a tough read but the author gives plenty of examples.  The part of race-inspired boats that makes me  nervous is the vertical bow and very little shear leaving a relatively low bow.   I think it was Moitessier who wrote, the ends of the boat should stay out of the water - speaking to shear as essential.  Every design is a compromise between factors.  The mix of compromise that is best suited to long term cruising is not unknown. Marchaj has lots to say that is worth reading because it is not just opinion, it is based on good mathematical analysis. The wide flat sterns seem like the handle on the lever that buries the bow and pitch-poles the boat that suffers from insufficient shear.  It is an unlikely event, but a small but greater chance of catastrophe resulting from variations from accepted and scientifically recognized design principles one has to ask, what is the upside to balance this. Speed is nice but one cannot outrun everything, long term.  If one were sailing from island to island 2-3 days max with perfect knowledge of weather because the hops are short, and one can choose departures, then it might be a very nice boat. If one choses a different hull line, one more conservative, it is not because one intends to ignore weather forecasts.  It might be because one wants to be cautious, knowing 5-6 days out, the forecast is often badly wrong in some areas owing to unequal quality in base weather data.  Then there are all the other unknowns that also only grow larger as time from shore increases. Matt From: J Fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 15, 09:32 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Imho it is a bad design direction for cruising yachts.  The wide stern really only works when sailed flat.  Since movable ballast is not an option they tend to sail bow down when going upwind.  Not well balanced and heel angle influences trim.  Fine off the wind, but not as good into the wind.  I think it is designers following a trend more than good design.   For reference, look at the designs in the iom model class.  First skinny, then wide stern, now back to a narrower boat.   Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:13, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast. Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34574|34562|2017-12-16 10:33:13|prairiemaidca|Re: Hull lines|Lets not forget that the majority of sailboats built never go off shore, they have very reliable engines now and with the ability of the modern sailor to receive good quality weather information, along with highly accurate navigation systems, means there is little reason to be caught out in a bad situation.  People who operate their boats under those situations can have all the luxury accommodations the builders can squeeze in and not give much thought as to what it'd be like to be subjected to high seas and a boat with a poor ride for long periods of time.  I always wondered about the open transom on those open ocean 70 race boats till I started watching some of their race footage and saw just how how often the boats are completely awash.  All that water has to go somewhere.   Martin...(Prairie Maid) | 34575|34562|2017-12-16 11:01:52|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| >means there is little reason to be caught out in a bad situation I have to disagree.   If one is building a metal boat, it is damaging its resale value to make it unsuitable for any offshore transit.   There are too many beautiful plastic boats that swamp the market that is unsuitable for offshore.   Once one considers that a future buyer might dream of an off-shore passage, like to Hawaii, Polynesia, or Southeast Asia, one has to consider possible transits of a week or more each, possibly with one transit of 3-4 weeks.   Weather data will never be as good 2,000 miles from any city as it is within a day of the coast of North America or Europe.   If you are out in the part of the ocean only transited by large ships and a handful of cruisers, the poorer weather data is not free.   Therefore the design of  the boat should allow for more robust stability if only to allow for less fatigue of the crew.   An hour of very adverse conditions is no worse than a week of conditions where one's boat does not allow one to sleep or eat because it is threatening to take on an unfavourable orientation to a unfavourable sea -- for its design.  (Every boat has a sea that will be unfavourable to it, where other boats around it will seem to do better, it is not a bad design.)  When offshore, there is every reason to steer 400 miles further south or north off the straight-line path from start to destination, to catch more regular and favourable winds.   There is every reason to modify one's plan to suit the conditions, and there is every reason to believe from time to time, a weather system far beyond the horizon, that is nothing when one makes a decision, will not be a problem a week from now, after one is 3 or 4 days sail into that decision.   If one goes off shore, there is every reason to believe at some time, one will be caught out in a situation that is not what one would have chosen, even if one does not go so far as to call it an imminently bad situation, a survival situation etc.   So circling back to design, it seems if one is building a metal boat, it is good for the builder to consider that it may go offshore, 2000 miles from the nearest city, and through a series of choices that appear good at the time, may find itself in an unfavourable situation a few days after those decisions.   In that case, it is the job of the boat design to make that situation as easy on the crew as possible so they can continue to rest between shifts, and eat and sleep, and maintain otherwise good condition.   No one said survival situation.  No one said super storms or freak conditions.  I am just talking about heavy conditions that may last for days, that on a well-designed boat are manageable without depleting the crew, and on a poorly designed boat deplete the crew's endurance and health and safety then fall to luck that the conditions abate before exhaustion is reached.   Matt  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:33 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     Lets not forget that the majority of sailboats built never go off shore, they have very reliable engines now and with the ability of the modern sailor to receive good quality weather information, along with highly accurate navigation systems, means there is little reason to be caught out in a bad situation.  People who operate their boats under those situations can have all the luxury accommodations the builders can squeeze in and not give much thought as to what it'd be like to be subjected to high seas and a boat with a poor ride for long periods of time.  I always wondered about the open transom on those open ocean 70 race boats till I started watching some of their race footage and saw just how how often the boats are completely awash.   All that water has to go somewhere.    Martin...(Prairie Maid)  | 34576|34562|2017-12-16 11:36:01|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Ok, an open 60 was an extreme example, not so extreme if you think to mini transat. They are very small (20 feet?) and they have to carry a huge amount of staff. Let say they probabily don't have such big sponsors, as open 60, for very expensive weather forecast system.Anyway, I'm just trying to understand, I don't have a precise opinion about that.Maybe an Ovni with no retractable keel would be the best, for me.I just would like to know how they sail. Anyway, some of them are travelling around the world, which is a fact.I've been sailing quite a lot and difficult sea situations I met are a very small percentage compare to all the rest wich is normally what I expect from (enjoy nature).What make me feel safe first is "metal hull", the strenght of the boat.Then I'm looking for the right compromise between: the beauty to stay like a cottage in a wanderfull cove, as you said, in a confortable cockpit with my family and children taking a swimm, and a seriuos yacht (not more then 35 feet, everything would be out of budget to me) where I can sail with comfort and safety.I agree 95% with you, but I can't belive there is no half way between a small narrow (well balanced) BS and a large same size racing yacht made to run, or make you belive it (see large scale yachts)I like central cockpit on bigger yachts.2017-12-16 15:56 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Alex, The open 60 boats are nearly empty inside and therefore float high.    They are not made 60 feet long to carry the volume personal cargo and conveniences that would require a 60 foot boat, like a cruising boat would.    No doubt they carry an anchor, and some aircraft cable, not tons of chain.   Yes, they have a fresh water tank, likely sized or underfilled so as to accommodate one person.   They also spend $50,000+ per race just on weather data to be in the best place they can.   And in every race it seems there are several capsizes and even a pitch-pole or two, even with ridiculously deep canting keels with tungsten bulbs.  It is more of a surf board, with a density far lower than a typical cruiser would have.   If one took an Open 60 and loaded it would an interior that suits a 60, several cabins for instance, a full bathroom in addition to a head, and other conveniences, plus all the extra gear one would have as a live-aboard cruiser -- that would be tons of stuff.   Of course the first thing one would do is shorten that keel to half its length or less meaning doubling the weight of the ballast, and to keep costs under control, it would be lead not tungsten, so either even more weight, or less stability.  Without the $50,000 a year for weather data looking ahead, one can see how it would be a very different boat from the one that was light and stripped down and already prone to planting its bow from time to time.   I have imagined such a boat as a cruiser, the advantage of an expansive flat interior deck, even if there were not a lot of head room everywhere.   The cockpits have to be essentially open in the back so that the boat does not become a giant wallowing jacuzzi whenever swamped at the rear by a wave.   That open back feels like something I would really like in the Caribbean, but something undesired to me, at night in steep waves. I have glanced at some photos of the Ovni aluminium yachts.  They look like very nice boats.   They are sort of a cross between the Open 60 look, and the slightly wider-stern cruising yachts from the 1980s.   They do have some shear lifting the bow slightly.     Some have a retractable keel, and believe me, I have considered that too, so I am not dismissing any boat simply for having a retractable keel.   It would be a very nice movable cottage where the waves are gentle so one can come in very shallow, say in some favourable cove in the Caribbean.   In the sun, in the right spot, I am sure it is the optimal boat.    I do not want to feel so constrained by a boat though.   It seems to me in a BS, and you could get really close to shore and even intentionally ground on the twin keels, even with some rocks around.  If a hundred extra square feet of deck space is really important -- and it may not even be that -- and that favourable cove has no regulations against tents, then a very large tent and awning or tarp, and over-sized cots fold up really small and would fit in the BS and one could set up a campsite of over 1000 square feet on the beach.   If 100 extra square feet of deck is so important, make the boat 10 feet longer and consider a center cockpit design.  http://sailboatdata.com/ viewrecord.asp?class_id=2451 That looks like an eminently origami-able layout.   One might make the entire rear deck flat and raised, not like a doghouse (flush deck) so that it becomes a multi-use area.  It might become a place for deck chairs and drinks, with a removable awning and table for that favourable cove, while retaining the more traditional and secure center cockpit.  When under way, it is an expansive area to secure-down deployable gear, like the dingy, or kayaks.  Below, there is room for a luxurious aft cabin or a fabrication shop for the truly independent-minded cruiser.   Or instead, one could even have removable, canting solar panels on the aft deck (a mutli-use area), to more efficiently catch power, instead of or in addition to having them cantilevered off the stern above the davits.      Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 4:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     Ok, thanks, but let me imagine there is a compromise between 40/50 years ago hull shapes and nowdays trend large sterns. Think also about advantages of large sterns like confort, trade winds speed, large increment of inside volume and maybe not so bad aesthetics.Last but not least a very functional cockpit with many possible pragmatic options. Mini transat small yachts cross the ocean, open 60 do the same around the world. Ok, speed is the first goal to them and not safety, but do they really soffer underwater bows? As an example, Ovni alluminium yachts, although quite large sterns, are a sort of compromise? Maybe is also a matter of underwater hull lines... 2017-12-15 16:46 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   One should read "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by C J  Marchaj.   Really.  It is a tough read but the author gives plenty of examples.  The part of race-inspired boats that makes me  nervous is the vertical bow and very little shear leaving a relatively low bow.   I think it was Moitessier who wrote, the ends of the boat should stay out of the water - speaking to shear as essential.  Every design is a compromise between factors.  The mix of compromise that is best suited to long term cruising is not unknown. Marchaj has lots to say that is worth reading because it is not just opinion, it is based on good mathematical analysis. The wide flat sterns seem like the handle on the lever that buries the bow and pitch-poles the boat that suffers from insufficient shear.  It is an unlikely event, but a small but greater chance of catastrophe resulting from variations from accepted and scientifically recognized design principles one has to ask, what is the upside to balance this. Speed is nice but one cannot outrun everything, long term.  If one were sailing from island to island 2-3 days max with perfect knowledge of weather because the hops are short, and one can choose departures, then it might be a very nice boat. If one choses a different hull line, one more conservative, it is not because one intends to ignore weather forecasts.  It might be because one wants to be cautious, knowing 5-6 days out, the forecast is often badly wrong in some areas owing to unequal quality in base weather data.  Then there are all the other unknowns that also only grow larger as time from shore increases. Matt From: J Fisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 15, 09:32 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Imho it is a bad design direction for cruising yachts.  The wide stern really only works when sailed flat.  Since movable ballast is not an option they tend to sail bow down when going upwind.  Not well balanced and heel angle influences trim.  Fine off the wind, but not as good into the wind.  I think it is designers following a trend more than good design.   For reference, look at the designs in the iom model class.  First skinny, then wide stern, now back to a narrower boat.   Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:13, Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast. Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34577|34562|2017-12-16 11:36:34|prairiemaidca|Re: Hull lines|   I'm not sure my statement was clear, my error.  I'm saying that the boats that are not going out to sea (the majority)  are the ones that do not get subjected to long periods of open ocean and all it's various weather and sea states.  They can simply look at the weather and head to the next marina.  Hence the builders will build to suit what is going to sell.  Should they design and sell all boats to be safe and comfortable on long passages, oh course but they are in the business of selling as much of their product as possible.  I guess that is why some of us built our own and can take some solitude that our well built and functional hulls will not let us down or make our journeys so adverse that we wouldn't want to go anywhere, coastal or blue water.  Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 34578|34562|2017-12-16 19:42:11|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| Not your error, reading it now you were just giving the excuse why most boats are built unsuitably for anything but the most popular use.  Next they will make party/pontoon boats in the shape of a sailboat, with a circle of big couches in the oversized cockpit to be better for sitting around at the dock and drinking.   Really, there are a fraction of sailboat owners who do not know how to sail, they just motor everywhere.  One marina I was in, there were several boats that were often visited, but they never moved. Matt From: losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 11:36 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      I'm not sure my statement was clear, my error.  I'm saying that the boats that are not going out to sea (the majority)  are the ones that do not get subjected to long periods of open ocean and all it's various weather and sea states.  They can simply look at the weather and head to the next marina.  Hence the builders will build to suit what is going to sell.  Should they design and sell all boats to be safe and comfortable on long passages, oh course but they are in the business of selling as much of their product as possible.  I guess that is why some of us built our own and can take some solitude that our well built and functional hulls will not let us down or make our journeys so adverse that we wouldn't want to go anywhere, coastal or blue water.   Martin... (Prairie Maid) | 34579|34355|2017-12-16 23:06:17|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Hi Brent, If I stretch my boat of 4 feet longer, from 37 feet to 41 feet long, do you think the 8 feet long bilge keels will still be long enough of should I make them a bit longer? Thanks, Martin On Oct 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   8 feet long on top. | 34580|34562|2017-12-17 03:12:13|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Can you suggest me a sailing yacht around 35' "large" (or small) scale production and professionaly builded that you think is suitable for sailing? No matter the cost.2017-12-17 1:42 GMT+01:00 Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] :   Not your error, reading it now you were just giving the excuse why most boats are built unsuitably for anything but the most popular use.  Next they will make party/pontoon boats in the shape of a sailboat, with a circle of big couches in the oversized cockpit to be better for sitting around at the dock and drinking.   Really, there are a fraction of sailboat owners who do not know how to sail, they just motor everywhere.  One marina I was in, there were several boats that were often visited, but they never moved. Matt From: losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 11:36 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      I'm not sure my statement was clear, my error.  I'm saying that the boats that are not going out to sea (the majority)  are the ones that do not get subjected to long periods of open ocean and all it's various weather and sea states.  They can simply look at the weather and head to the next marina.  Hence the builders will build to suit what is going to sell.  Should they design and sell all boats to be safe and comfortable on long passages, oh course but they are in the business of selling as much of their product as possible.  I guess that is why some of us built our own and can take some solitude that our well built and functional hulls will not let us down or make our journeys so adverse that we wouldn't want to go anywhere, coastal or blue water.   Martin... (Prairie Maid) | 34581|34562|2017-12-17 13:26:45|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| This list is from  http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/motion-comfort-ratio-114288.html Ted Brewster came up with this formula: To calculate Brewer’s comfort ratio, you need to run the following formula: Comfort ratio = D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam↑1.33), where displacement is expressed in pounds, and length is expressed in feet. (from http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gear/281-crunching-numbers-brewer-comfort-ratio ) or: D                                                                                                                                                =  CR -------------------------------------------------------------- 0.65 * ( 0.7 LWL + 0.3 LOA ) * Beam ^ 1.33 This factor only attempts to measure heaving motion of the boat, but since this is the most forceful of the motions a boat can have, pitting its entire mass against its entire buoyancy, a sharp motion here puts the most accelerations on a person near the center of mass, i.e. the point on the boat that should experience the least accelerations -- the last refuge of acceleration-comfort.  (Yes, yes, being on deck looking at the horizon is more comfortable for most people when conditions permit.)     First, the factor of 0.65 only changes the scale of the factor so that all the numbers are in a particular range -- it is an aesthetic factor only.   The CR factor is not actually measuring hull shape, it is measuring weight divided by plan-form water area with an added factor of Beam ^ .33 .   Basically the heavier the boat for its plan form area, the better the rating.   This factor generally favours larger boats of the same shape because the larger boat rides proportionately deeper -- it is common experience I think that bigger boats of the same shape have a more gentle ride.   This factor directly and proportionally favours heavier boats for the same plan-form area, and favours the same boat with more cargo added.   Provided cargo is well secured, it is obvious that people will have a better ride if the boat has to apply forces to more cargo, and by this way is forced into less extreme motions.   The factor favours boats that are tall and thin when looked at from the end.  The wine-glass-shaped/deep draft boats come out good on this factor.   The double-enders with a long straight keel tend to do better on this factor as they tend to be really heavy boats.      Speaking of double-enders, and long straight keels and deep braft and other "old" designs...  If one were to sum up Marchaj in one sentence -- a lot of the old serviceable designs, like the sailing lifeboats that went out in adverse conditions to save people on other boats that foundered -- they can be shown by scientific analysis to have been good stable boats.   Some of the boats that rate highly on this list have a reputation as submarines, spending a lot of time awash in heavy weather -- the Contessa 32 is an exception, rating lower yet being one of the most famous submarines.   I think this is where a center cockpit shows obvious advantage.   I have highlighted some boats.   Note that the steel boats tend to rate more highly -- I bet when one looks them up, they will not be the beamy ones with flat bottoms, but at least the very heavy ones.   A lot of Bruce Roberts boats are high in the list.   The CSY boats are also high on the list -- Caribbean Sailing Yacht, made specifically for the charter boat business, to be durable (solid fibreglass all around) and comfortable.   A lot of the early 1960's solid fibreglass boats rate well too, including mine.   Mine is the Bounty II - 41', which has the lines of an old off-shore wood racing boat, with high, significant overhangs both fore and aft and more shear than is seen in newer boats.   http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2006 One could criticize the design for being excessive in its overhangs for aesthetic reasons, like excessive fins on 1950s cars, even if the overhangs have a use.   It was based on this design: https://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/rhodes29.htm Overhangs put flotation above the water line fore and aft so as the bow or stern is forced under, there is a much-increased restoring pitching torque that would tend to work against burying the bow or stern.   Yes, this can lead to less comfort in short, steep, but not-dangerous seas when burying the bow on a different boat might lead to no particular negative outcome -- so the deck is more awash, who cares -- and lead to a gentler ride.   This design became the Pearson Rhodes 41: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3744 There are plenty of those ones around, close to 60 years old, made entirely of solid fibreglass.     I have long been a proponent of the well-built old (early 1960s), solid, fibreglass boats as an option (just an option) for the following reasons:   - chances are the bad boats are sunk or junked by now, it has been over 50 years.     - they are cheap   - they often come loaded with gear, ready to go   - gear that carries forces is often over-designed   - they are tough, not as tough as steel, but, they are cheap   - well coated, and kept away from rocks they are forever boats, literally.     - a one-time forceful encounter with a rock or otherwise is going to be work to repair, but, fibreglass is far tougher when solid and thick than most people think.   Yes repeated rubbing, even with modest forces can slowly cut through fibreglass, so, you are not getting the boat that can survive the repeated force of waves against rocks, or get squeezed between two larger boats in a choppy commercial port and come off with just paint damage or a dint that you can hydraulic-jack out.     - they were made in an era before GPS, satellite phone, satellite weather, before deep ocean search and rescue was a  thing,  when cruising was young, before anyone had sailed all the way around the world non-stop.  They were made with more priority put on keeping their crew safe without intervention and assistance.   They put more priority on crew comfort for motion.  Their designs were based more on the boats that returned to harbour, and less on the dreams and whims and spacious cabins of modern boats.    With the old boats, think longer boat to get the cabin you might get on a newer boat.   But there is plenty of advantage to a well-built steel boat and more than enough to justify passing on solid plastic and breaking out the welder.   With a steel boat, you will never have to wonder how you are going to fasten something down -- just weld it, grind the burnt paint and put on a bit more paint.   If you make a mistake, the boat produces an orange streak to show you where the problem is.   This list completely ignores all the good input Brent has made on what makes a good steel boat, that is faster to build, and all his input on how to build it so it lasts.   I seem to remember him saying something about Bruce Roberts boats are often not painted properly on the inside and all rusty -- one should give every consideration all Brent's input, as well as an actual  survey etc.   Down near the bottom of the list, one finds the light beamy boats with lots of cabin space.   Hummm. I include the list not because you would necessarily want these exact boats, but, that you could compare the shape of a candidate boat to a boat on this list to get an idea where it lays in the list.   Boats ordered with the best to worst Motion Comfort Ratio: 54.75 Herreshoff Walrus 54.69 Herreshoff Joann 54.67 Colin Archer 37 Pilot Cutter 53.47 Reliance 53.28 Formosa 51 52.8 Buehler Archimedes 52.49 Shamrock III 51.95 Herreshoff Persephone 51.8 Herreshoff Unicorn 51.36 CT 54 51.33 Tayana Vancouver 460 51.22 Alpa A42 (S&S) Half-loaded 50.99 Fantasia 35 MK II 50.7 CT50 50.35 Herreshoff Block Island Boat 50.33 Herreshoff Mobjack 49.97 Columbia 56 49.97 Columbia 56 MS 49.97 Sailmaster 56 MS 49.91 Gartside Cutter 30 Ft 49.81 Herreshoff Manana 49.77 Columbia 57 49.38 Tahitiana 32 49.29 Hustu 70 48.98 Roberts 55 Cutter 48.88 Buehler Dragonfly 50 48.71 Vagabond 47 48.61 Talbot 48 48.48 Zinnia 48.23 New York 46 (Roberts) 48.17 Hartley 36 47.97 Herreshoff Santee 47.94 CSY 44 Pilothouse Ketch 47.75 Herreshoff Diddikai 47.6 Irwin 52 47.54 Cape George 36 47.49 Dreadnought 32 47.35 Spray 45 Centennial (Roberts) 47.22 Mariner 40 46.91 Laurent Guiles Vertue 46.75 Irwin 65 Ketch 46.72 Hillyard 9 Ton 46.66 CSY 44 46.64 Columbia 50 (Tripp) 46.46 Hans Christian 41T 46.39 Spray 38 Centennial (Roberts) 46.38 Pearson 43 (1968-72) 46.27 South Coast One Design (C&N) 46.24 Herreshoff Bounty 46.05 Brewer Sunshine 45.93 Buehler Juna 45.92 True North 34 45.55 Mariner 47 (Cruising Version) 45.4 Downeast 45 Ketch 45.35 Tayana V-42 MKII 45.23 Brewer Orca 45.16 Hartley Fijian 43 Cutter 44.99 Antigua 44.95 Rhodes Reliant 44.91 Hinckley Sou Wester 51 Sloop 44.85 Alpa A42 (S&S) 44.69 Cape George 34 44.6 Westsail 42 Cutter 44.6 Westsail 42 Ketch 44.32 Brewer Thursday's Child 44.19 Herreshoff Lifeboat Ketch 43.95 Buginese Schooner 43.85 Ohlson 41 Steel 43.84 Souwester 51 43.82 Morgan 512 43.71 Duncanson 40 43.69 Nauticat 44 43.61 Westsail 32 43.52 Camper Nicholson 32 43.52 Hans Christian 38 43.51 Cheoy Lee Offshore 50 43.45 Fuji Ketch 45 43.44 Mariner Ketch 36 43.43 Vagabond 42 43.38 Sovereign 30 43.36 Hardin 45 Ketch 43.33 Tayana V-42 43.22 Skye 51 43.13 Young Sun 43 PH 43.07 Liberty 49 42.98 Herreshoff Wagon Box 42.97 Bristol 45.5 42.83 Roberts 58 42.7 Corbin 39 42.55 MacNaughton Passagemaker 42.43 Little Harbor 44 42.3 Mariner 35 42.16 Cape George 31 42.16 Swan 48 42.14 Landfall 39 (Sino Amer.) 42.05 Cherubini 44 42.04 Morgan 462(1979) 42 Vagabond 39PH 41.94 Baba 35 41.87 Mason 44 41.86 Folkes 39 Cutter (Steel) 41.76 Chatam 330 41.43 FISHER 30 41.28 Roberts 420 (cat-ketch) 41.25 Tashiba 40 41.15 UWB 333 41.14 Waterline 50 41.08 Westsail 28 41.04 Herreshoff Leeboard Ketch 41 Cherubini 48 40.8 Rhodes Bounty II 40.78 Giles 38 40.78 Tayana 37 Cutter 40.77 Roberts 53 Steel Ketch 40.74 Fuji 35 40.71 Stellar 53 40.32 Columbia 45 40.29 Herreshoff Double-ended Sloop 40.27 Willard 8-ton Cutter 40.23 Herreshoff Nereia 40.15 Amphitrite MS45 40.12 Rawson 30 40.08 Pearson Invicta Mark II 40.06 Union Polaris 36 39.97 Rossiter Pintail (27 F) 39.9 Duncanson 29 39.76 Spencer 44 39.72 Cal 2-46 39.69 Allied Seawind 39.65 Roberts 45 Pilothouse C. C. 39.62 Navy 44 39.57 Gulf 32 Pilothouse 39.56 Islander 44 39.54 Endeavour 43 Ketch 39.53 Irwin 46 Ketch 39.42 Swan 57 CB Sloop 39.38 Kettenburg PCC 39.34 Creala 40 39.34 Crealock 40 Twin Stay 39.33 Golden Hind 31 MKll 39.3 Alberg 37 39.23 Cabo Rico Tiburon 36 38.99 Concordia Yawl 38.98 Quoddy Pilot 38.96 Cabo Rico 38 38.89 Hughes Columbia 391 38.8 Southern Cross 31 38.79 Hylas 54 38.72 Fast Passage 39 38.72 Nicholson 31 38.59 Cheoy Lee Clipper 42 38.56 Gulfstar 50ft Ketch 38.51 Caliber 47LRC 38.46 Mariner 39 C-cockpit 38.41 Van De Stadt 40 (1954) 38.34 Tanton 43 38.29 Columbia 40 38.21 Columbia 41 Shoal Sloop 38.21 Roberts 35 Cutter 38.19 Endeavor 37 38.18 Kelly Peterson 46 38.14 Wauqiez Hood 38 38.13 Herreshoff Restricted Sail Area Cruiser 38.13 Malo 41 38.08 Bolger Leeboard Catboat 37.97 Hout Bay 30 Gaff Cutter 37.95 Coronado 41 37.95 Valiant 50 37.92 Peterson 44 37.9 Hinckley 38 37.85 Bolger Barnowl 37.85 Bristol 41.1 37.84 Passport 47+3 37.83 Dickerson 41 37.83 Heritage 35 By McCurdy & Rhodes 37.8 Formosa 46 37.77 Cheoy Lee Robb 35 Yawl 37.77 Gilbert Scarper Flo 37.73 Slocum 43 Cutter 37.68 CT 34 37.67 Amphitrite 43 37.66 Roberts 28 - Steel 37.66 Tayana 55 37.64 Swan 36 37.61 Rossiter Curlew 37.55 Buehler Emily 37.49 Roberts 470 37.41 Cheoy Lee Clipper 36 37.36 Brolga 33 37.32 Chris Craft Sail Yacht 35 37.3 Dix Hout Bay 30 37.27 Seafarer 38 Ketch 37.23 Crealock 40 37.22 Pearson 385 37.16 Stevens Custom 40 37.1 Hood No Compromise 54 (sloop) 37.08 Seafarer 34 36.93 Irwin 37 Mk V 36.89 Allied Seawind II 36.89 Bristol Channel Cutter 36.87 Swallowcraft Scylla 36.84 Morgan 37OI MKII Sloop 36.78 Herreshoff Araminta 36.77 Cabo Rico 42 36.69 Rafiki 35 36.61 Cabo Rico 37 36.59 Endeavour 40 Sloop 36.59 Nicholson 33 36.58 Hinckley Pilot 35 Sloop 36.58 Watkins 36 36.57 Bristol 40 36.48 Alberg 35 Sloop 36.28 Tashiba 36 36.21 Bolger Ataraxia 36.21 Hinckley Sou'wester 42 Yawl 36.14 Nicholson 35 36.13 Grampian Classic 31 36.12 Lecomte Northeast 38 36.09 Young Sun 35 36.06 Cal 48 36.05 Amel Maramu 36.01 Coronado 35 Ketch (SK) 36.01 Coronado 35 Sloop (SK) 35.88 Rustler 36 35.86 Lord Nelson 35 35.83 Bolger Schuyt Houseboat 35.82 Columbia 45 Sloop 35.77 Tayana 48' Deck Saloon 35.74 Knutson 35 35.73 Fuji 32 Ketch 35.73 Pearson 40 35.7 Hallberg Rassy HR39 35.62 Allied Mistress 39 35.61 Norseman 447 35.6 Island Packet 485 35.59 Sea Trader 35.57 CSY 37 35.57 Ericson 41 35.57 Gibbons 42 35.57 Hinckley Bermuda 40 35.57 Roberts 53 Aluminum 35.57 Tayana 52 35.56 Cambria 44 35.55 Lord Nelson 33 35.54 Passoa 47 35.5 Brewer Sandingo 35.5 Cape Dory 36 35.5 Gail Storm (Exp. Design) 35.45 Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 35.37 Cornish Crabber Pilot 30 35.36 Nauticat 331 35.31 Spencer 53 35.29 Colvin Saugeen Witch 35.29 Island Packet 45 35.26 Bayfield 40 35.26 Lyle Hess 32 35.25 Ericson 39 35.23 Bristol 35.5 35.19 Morgan 45 Ketch 35.18 Freedom 45 35.16 Island Trader 36 35.15 Morgan 462 Sloop (1981) 35.09 Seafarer 31 Yawl 35.03 Jason 35 35.01 Columbia 38 29.9 Morgan 43 (N-M Design) 29.89 Airturbine 1967 Model 009 29.89 Ericson 31i 29.89 Island Packet 350 29.87 Cascade 36 29.84 Pearson Coaster 29.77 Nautilus 40 29.72 Hunter 49 29.67 Alberg 29 29.66 Seafarer Meridian 29.64 Morgan 44 29.61 Pearson Coaster 29.59 Halcyon 27 29.59 Pacific Seacraft 24 29.52 C&C 39 29.51 Cal 40 29.51 Kalik 44 29.49 Hallberg-Rassy 36 29.48 Chance 32/28 29.46 Morgan Classic 41(1987) 29.43 Hunter 450 29.43 LM Glasfiber 32 29.36 Columbia 34 29.32 Pearson 390 29.29 Beneteau First 405(1986) 29.28 Bristol 31.1 29.23 CS36T (deep Keel) 29.23 CS36T (shoal) 29.23 Passoa 54 29.22 LM Glasfiber 30 29.2 Hallberg Rassy Rasmus 35 29.2 Islander 37 29.17 C&C Landfall 35 29.17 Moody 38 29.17 Pearson Coaster 29.14 Ericson 35 II 29.14 Paine Sarah 32 29.13 Brewer Murray 33 29.12 Columbia 30 29.12 Hallberg Rassy 35 29.1 Morris 36 29.09 Catalina 470 Wing/Std 29.09 Hunter HS470 29.06 Glen-L Delphin 36 29.05 Pearson 424 29.05 Rival-Bowman 40 29.03 J/42 29.03 Westerly Berwick 31 29.01 Islander P40 29.01 Terrapin 34 28.99 Shannon 28 28.97 Tartan 37 (K/CB) 28.96 C&C 35 MK II 28.93 Morgan 30 OI 28.92 C&C Frigate 36 28.87 Bristol 27 28.84 Brewer Morgane Le Fay 28.84 Morris 40 28.83 Grampian 2-34 28.82 Columbia 10.7 28.76 Cascade 44 28.74 Colvic Countess 33 28.7 Hunter 466 28.68 Morris 38 28.64 Glen-L Francis Drake 28.64 Warrior 35 28.63 Cape Dory 270 28.63 Sea Sprite 27 28.62 Bolger AS29 No Reacher 28.62 Bolger AS29 With Reacher 28.62 Wauquiez Pilot 40 28.59 Contest 36 28.58 Heritage West Indies 36 28.57 Nordica 30 28.55 Westerly Pentland 28.54 Allegra 24 28.52 Yankee 30 MK II 28.48 Hanse 350 28.47 Contest 33 28.47 Yankee 30 MK I 28.45 Glen-L 30 28.43 Hallberg-Rassy 37 28.43 Pearson 39-2 1986-1991 28.42 Bristol 29 (1968 ) 28.42 Centurion 36 28.41 Morgan 33 OI 28.4 Beneteau First 345 28.39 Bristol 24/Sailstar Corsair 28.38 Morris 32 28.36 Valiant 32 28.35 Hoyt 28 28.33 Morgan 38 28.3 Bristol 33 28.21 Garcia CC 48 28.2 Chris Craft Cherokee 32 28.2 Ericson 36C 28.18 Aloha 34 [Shoal] 28.18 MacGregor 65 28.17 Hunter 42 28.15 Columbia 9.6 28.14 Hughes 38 28.13 Tartan 34c 28.13 Tartan 34c E13 28.13 Watkins 33 28.12 Bandholm 26 28.11 Hunter Legend 45 DK 28.09 Ericson 29 28.08 Catalina 38 (S&S Design) 28.07 Freedom Ph39 28.06 Allmand 35 Pilothouse (1981) 28.06 Jeanneau Sunkiss 45 28.06 Morris 26 28.06 Saga 409 28.06 Wibo 945 28.04 Ranger 33 28.02 Saga 43 28.01 C&C Corvette 28.01 Vancouver 25 28 Cal Cruising 36 27.99 Sailmaster 22c 27.98 Bolger Presto Cruiser 27.97 Pearson Triton 28 27.96 Bandholm 35 27.96 Bolger Jessie Cooper 27.96 Pearson 33 (1969-80) 27.9 Express 35 27.88 Pearson 39 C/B 27.86 Kettenberg 32 27.85 Sabre 42 27.85 Tartan 27 27.85 Tartan 27 (Mark Two) 27.84 Contessa 32 27.84 Radford 14 27.83 Bengel (lm32) 27.83 Tartan 5100 27.82 Gulfstar 44 27.81 Sabre 38 II 27.79 Dickerson 35 27.79 Nordic 40 27.79 S2 11 27.77 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40.3 27.75 Nimble Wanderer MS 27.73 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 49 27.72 Hallberg-Rassy 37 27.7 Harstad 32 Motorsailor 27.64 C&C 40 C/B 27.64 Tartan 41 27.61 Islander 29 (1969) 27.59 Hunter 430 27.54 Cal 39 27.51 Beneteau First 44.7 27.49 Sabre 34 27.47 Rutu(custom) 27.42 Ovni 345 27.38 Southerly 110 27.37 Morgan 45 (N-M Design) 27.32 Tartan 40 Shoal 27.31 S2 35C 27.29 C&C Landfall 38 27.29 LT36 (Andersen Lateen Sloop) 27.28 W-46 27.27 Morris Leigh 30 27.27 W-46 27.25 Beneteau First 44.7 (corrected) 27.22 Columbia Sabre 27.2 Bristol 34 27.19 Sabre 38 MK I 27.18 Aloha 34 [198*] 27.15 Morris 34 27.14 Pearson 37-2 27.13 Dufour 45 Classic 27.13 Westerly Longbow 27.11 Islander 36 27.1 Tartan 40 27.08 Sadler 34 27.07 Bristol 30 27.05 Laurin 28 27.02 Morris 28 26.99 Bolger Volunteer 26.98 Cascade Sloop 26.97 Cape Dory 30 MKII 26.97 Seacracker 33 26.95 Island Packet 32 26.95 Voyager 26 26.93 Island Packet 320 26.91 Sirena 38 26.84 Allmand 31 26.83 New Horizon 26.82 Compromis 36 26.82 Hylas 44 26.82 ODay 39 26.8 Northsea 34 Pilothouse 26.8 Tom Thumb 24 26.79 Sabre 34 MK I 26.76 Hunter 36 (1980-82) 26.75 ODay 37 26.74 C&C 41 26.71 Hallberg Rassy 94 Kutter 26.68 C&C 37 (1985) 26.68 Hallberg-Rassy Monsun 31 26.68 Westerly Sealord 26.62 Top Hat 25 26.6 Contest 31 HTB 26.59 Ericson (Pacific Seacraft) 26.59 Ericson 38-200 26.59 ODay 40 26.57 Dufour 39 CC 26.56 Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 26.56 Watkins 32 26.54 Bolger Whalewatcher 26.54 Farallon 29 26.52 Irwin 30 26.49 Irwin Mk 2 26.46 Hunter 54 26.43 Pearson 10M 26.41 Bavaria Ocean 42 (CC Furling) 26.41 Bavaria Ocean 42 (CC) 26.41 Hanse 461 26.37 Columbia 36 26.36 Bodega 30 26.35 Peterson 35 26.34 Wauquiez 40 Standard 26.33 Genzel Phantom 30 26.31 C&C 30 Mega 26.28 Challenger 32 26.27 ELAN IMPRESSION 344 26.27 HR 28 26.26 Bavaria 35 26.24 Hunter 38 26.23 Hunter 40.5 Bulb Wing Keel 26.21 Westerly Centaur 26 26.19 Northshore 46 26.16 Najad 355 26.15 X-442 MKII 26.12 Van De Stadt 40 26.11 Compass 29 26.11 Coronado 28 26.11 Ericson 32 26.1 Sabre 362 (CB) 26.09 Beneteau 45f5 (tall Rig) 26.09 Catalina 27 Tall Rig DK OB 26.09 Fortune 30 26.07 Beneteau 42CC 26.06 Tanzer 10.5 26.04 Bolger Scow Schooner 26.02 Beneteau Oceanis 510 26.02 C&C Redwing 30 26.02 Gozzard 31 26.01 Benford 36 Donna 25.98 Freedom 35 25.98 Hunter Mystery 35 25.96 Bayfield 32c 25.93 Albin 85 Cumulus 25.92 Beneteau Idylle 11.50 25.92 Morgan 35 25.92 Sabre 28 Series III 25.91 Cal 35 MkII 25.9 C&C 40 25.89 Dufour 44 25.89 Hallberg-Rassy 29 25.89 Temptress 34 25.87 Kenner Privateer 26 25.86 Oceanis 49 25.85 Caliber 33 25.85 Westerly 36 Corsair 25.84 Miura 30 25.84 Sabre 28 25.84 Sabre 32 (K/CB) 25.82 Aerodyne 47 25.82 Grand Soleil 46.3 25.81 J/40 25.8 Oday 32 Center Cockpit 25.79 Hunter Vision 36 25.79 Wauquiez Centurion 45s (std) 25.77 Beneteau Oceanis 40 CC 25.77 Catalina 400 Mk II 25.77 Ericson 35 MKIII 25.76 C&C 38 MK II (1976) 25.76 Dufour 31 25.75 Hunter 426 25.72 C&C 121 Cruise Ed. Shoal Dr. 25.72 C&C 121 Cruise Edition Shoal Draft 25.72 Nonsuch 36 25.71 Tanton 43 Cat Ketch 25.7 Tartan 372 Scheel 25.69 Pearson 36-2 25.65 Bavaria 47 25.65 Benford 37.5 25.65 Pearson 38 25.65 Shields 25.64 Hunter 33 25.62 Cal 3-30 25.62 Columbia 28 MKII 25.61 Ericson 27 25.58 Sadler 29 25.57 Ericson 34 25.57 Hunter 41 25.56 Bayliner Buccaneer 27 25.56 CS 40 25.56 Ericson 38 (80-83?) 25.55 Columbia 26 MKII Shoal Keel 25.55 S2 9.2A 25.5 Columbia 31 25.45 Sabre 362 (WK) 25.44 Cornish Crabber Piper 24 25.43 C & C 33 Mk II Keel / Centreboard 25.39 Hunter 30 (early) 25.38 Arion By Sid Herreshoff 25.35 C&C 37+ 25.33 Contessa 26 25.25 Tom Thumb 26 25.24 Hullmaster 27 25.21 Westerly Storm 33' Cruiser 25.2 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40 25.16 Morgan 28 OI 25.12 Sabre 32 25.09 Hunter 37.5 25.08 J/44 25.06 C&C 32 25.06 Caliber 35 25.06 Northwest 28 25.06 Sabre 386 25.04 Morgan 45 (N-M Design) 25.02 Morgan 28 24.99 Albacore 960 24.97 Catalina 30TRBS 24.97 Hunter 40 | 34582|34562|2017-12-17 13:54:13|opuspaul|Re: Hull lines|I remember when the Comfort Ratio first came out.  It never really caught on.   I understand what it is trying to do but coming up with a comfort figure is next to impossible.   Everyone will have a different opinion but I don't think it takes overall length in to account as much as it should.  I think it also favors longer overhangs without taking in account hull shape in the ends.  There are plenty of modern, long waterline yachts with a good motion.If I was using the Comfort Ratio, I would only use it to compare similar length boats.   A good example.   A Passoa 47 has almost an identical Comfort Ratios as an Cape Dory 36.   I know what boat I would want to be on offshore.    Hands down it would be the longer and more modern 47.  It would be much more comfortable offshore. | 34583|34562|2017-12-17 14:25:49|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| BTW, the CT-54, that is a Robert Perry boat.  Note it gains the advantage of being huge, and heavy, so, its design does not need to be wonderful to get higher on this list.   I was going to write about this earlier because of Brent and Robert Perry's previous disagreements but then decided not to stir the head.  Now it seems appropriate.   Marchaj seems to take a solid shot at Perry (by name) and other designers implying, to my reading, that they do not know what is important.    I am not certain what Marchaj would say about Brent's boats because he never speaks of build material (steel), build simplicity (origami) or the specific shapes that come out of origami.  Fairly, many others have commented are not the best in their opinion, many citing aesthetic reasons only.   As for performance:  It is self-evident that if one constrains the design to be mainly single curvature to make it easier to pull together, it cannot be as perfect as something of entirely double curvature, but, it can still be very serviceable.   Then there are the issues of build irregularity -- shape deviations brought on by welding plates to frames that reduces actual performance from ideal drawing performance, something absent in Brent boats.   As all boats are compromise, this criticism of origami hull shape seems like a nit in comparison to the benefit offered by origami to the build-it-yourself-er.    All Robert Perry's appearance high in this list proves is one can make a boat that rates well by making it traditional-looking and really heavy (29 tons).    There are some pictures of those boats, so, they do exist, and apparently about 100 of them.   If a particular boat were well-built, in good condition, and not expensive, I might buy it.        Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     This list is from  http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/motion-comfort-ratio-114288.html Ted Brewster came up with this formula: To calculate Brewer’s comfort ratio, you need to run the following formula: Comfort ratio = D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam↑1.33), where displacement is expressed in pounds, and length is expressed in feet. (from http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gear/281-crunching-numbers-brewer-comfort-ratio ) or: D                                                                                                                                                =  CR -------------------------------------------------------------- 0.65 * ( 0.7 LWL + 0.3 LOA ) * Beam ^ 1.33 This factor only attempts to measure heaving motion of the boat, but since this is the most forceful of the motions a boat can have, pitting its entire mass against its entire buoyancy, a sharp motion here puts the most accelerations on a person near the center of mass, i.e. the point on the boat that should experience the least accelerations -- the last refuge of acceleration-comfort.  (Yes, yes, being on deck looking at the horizon is more comfortable for most people when conditions permit.)     First, the factor of 0.65 only changes the scale of the factor so that all the numbers are in a particular range -- it is an aesthetic factor only.   The CR factor is not actually measuring hull shape, it is measuring weight divided by plan-form water area with an added factor of Beam ^ .33 .   Basically the heavier the boat for its plan form area, the better the rating.   This factor generally favours larger boats of the same shape because the larger boat rides proportionately deeper -- it is common experience I think that bigger boats of the same shape have a more gentle ride.   This factor directly and proportionally favours heavier boats for the same plan-form area, and favours the same boat with more cargo added.   Provided cargo is well secured, it is obvious that people will have a better ride if the boat has to apply forces to more cargo, and by this way is forced into less extreme motions.   The factor favours boats that are tall and thin when looked at from the end.  The wine-glass-shaped/deep draft boats come out good on this factor.   The double-enders with a long straight keel tend to do better on this factor as they tend to be really heavy boats.      Speaking of double-enders, and long straight keels and deep braft and other "old" designs...  If one were to sum up Marchaj in one sentence -- a lot of the old serviceable designs, like the sailing lifeboats that went out in adverse conditions to save people on other boats that foundered -- they can be shown by scientific analysis to have been good stable boats.   Some of the boats that rate highly on this list have a reputation as submarines, spending a lot of time awash in heavy weather -- the Contessa 32 is an exception, rating lower yet being one of the most famous submarines.   I think this is where a center cockpit shows obvious advantage.   I have highlighted some boats.   Note that the steel boats tend to rate more highly -- I bet when one looks them up, they will not be the beamy ones with flat bottoms, but at least the very heavy ones.   A lot of Bruce Roberts boats are high in the list.   The CSY boats are also high on the list -- Caribbean Sailing Yacht, made specifically for the charter boat business, to be durable (solid fibreglass all around) and comfortable.   A lot of the early 1960's solid fibreglass boats rate well too, including mine.   Mine is the Bounty II - 41', which has the lines of an old off-shore wood racing boat, with high, significant overhangs both fore and aft and more shear than is seen in newer boats.   http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2006 One could criticize the design for being excessive in its overhangs for aesthetic reasons, like excessive fins on 1950s cars, even if the overhangs have a use.   It was based on this design: https://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/rhodes29.htm Overhangs put flotation above the water line fore and aft so as the bow or stern is forced under, there is a much-increased restoring pitching torque that would tend to work against burying the bow or stern.   Yes, this can lead to less comfort in short, steep, but not-dangerous seas when burying the bow on a different boat might lead to no particular negative outcome -- so the deck is more awash, who cares -- and lead to a gentler ride.   This design became the Pearson Rhodes 41: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3744 There are plenty of those ones around, close to 60 years old, made entirely of solid fibreglass.     I have long been a proponent of the well-built old (early 1960s), solid, fibreglass boats as an option (just an option) for the following reasons:   - chances are the bad boats are sunk or junked by now, it has been over 50 years.     - they are cheap   - they often come loaded with gear, ready to go   - gear that carries forces is often over-designed   - they are tough, not as tough as steel, but, they are cheap   - well coated, and kept away from rocks they are forever boats, literally.     - a one-time forceful encounter with a rock or otherwise is going to be work to repair, but, fibreglass is far tougher when solid and thick than most people think.   Yes repeated rubbing, even with modest forces can slowly cut through fibreglass, so, you are not getting the boat that can survive the repeated force of waves against rocks, or get squeezed between two larger boats in a choppy commercial port and come off with just paint damage or a dint that you can hydraulic-jack out.     - they were made in an era before GPS, satellite phone, satellite weather, before deep ocean search and rescue was a  thing,  when cruising was young, before anyone had sailed all the way around the world non-stop.  They were made with more priority put on keeping their crew safe without intervention and assistance.   They put more priority on crew comfort for motion.  Their designs were based more on the boats that returned to harbour, and less on the dreams and whims and spacious cabins of modern boats.    With the old boats, think longer boat to get the cabin you might get on a newer boat.   But there is plenty of advantage to a well-built steel boat and more than enough to justify passing on solid plastic and breaking out the welder.   With a steel boat, you will never have to wonder how you are going to fasten something down -- just weld it, grind the burnt paint and put on a bit more paint.   If you make a mistake, the boat produces an orange streak to show you where the problem is.   This list completely ignores all the good input Brent has made on what makes a good steel boat, that is faster to build, and all his input on how to build it so it lasts.   I seem to remember him saying something about Bruce Roberts boats are often not painted properly on the inside and all rusty -- one should give every consideration all Brent's input, as well as an actual  survey etc.   Down near the bottom of the list, one finds the light beamy boats with lots of cabin space.   Hummm. I include the list not because you would necessarily want these exact boats, but, that you could compare the shape of a candidate boat to a boat on this list to get an idea where it lays in the list.   Boats ordered with the best to worst Motion Comfort Ratio: 54.75 Herreshoff Walrus 54.69 Herreshoff Joann 54.67 Colin Archer 37 Pilot Cutter 53.47 Reliance 53.28 Formosa 51 52.8 Buehler Archimedes 52.49 Shamrock III 51.95 Herreshoff Persephone 51.8 Herreshoff Unicorn 51.36 CT 54 51.33 Tayana Vancouver 460 51.22 Alpa A42 (S&S) Half-loaded 50.99 Fantasia 35 MK II 50.7 CT50 50.35 Herreshoff Block Island Boat 50.33 Herreshoff Mobjack 49.97 Columbia 56 49.97 Columbia 56 MS 49.97 Sailmaster 56 MS 49.91 Gartside Cutter 30 Ft 49.81 Herreshoff Manana 49.77 Columbia 57 49.38 Tahitiana 32 49.29 Hustu 70 48.98 Roberts 55 Cutter 48.88 Buehler Dragonfly 50 48.71 Vagabond 47 48.61 Talbot 48 48.48 Zinnia 48.23 New York 46 (Roberts) 48.17 Hartley 36 47.97 Herreshoff Santee 47.94 CSY 44 Pilothouse Ketch 47.75 Herreshoff Diddikai 47.6 Irwin 52 47.54 Cape George 36 47.49 Dreadnought 32 47.35 Spray 45 Centennial (Roberts) 47.22 Mariner 40 46.91 Laurent Guiles Vertue 46.75 Irwin 65 Ketch 46.72 Hillyard 9 Ton 46.66 CSY 44 46.64 Columbia 50 (Tripp) 46.46 Hans Christian 41T 46.39 Spray 38 Centennial (Roberts) 46.38 Pearson 43 (1968-72) 46.27 South Coast One Design (C&N) 46.24 Herreshoff Bounty 46.05 Brewer Sunshine 45.93 Buehler Juna 45.92 True North 34 45.55 Mariner 47 (Cruising Version) 45.4 Downeast 45 Ketch 45.35 Tayana V-42 MKII 45.23 Brewer Orca 45.16 Hartley Fijian 43 Cutter 44.99 Antigua 44.95 Rhodes Reliant 44.91 Hinckley Sou Wester 51 Sloop 44.85 Alpa A42 (S&S) 44.69 Cape George 34 44.6 Westsail 42 Cutter 44.6 Westsail 42 Ketch 44.32 Brewer Thursday's Child 44.19 Herreshoff Lifeboat Ketch 43.95 Buginese Schooner 43.85 Ohlson 41 Steel 43.84 Souwester 51 43.82 Morgan 512 43.71 Duncanson 40 43.69 Nauticat 44 43.61 Westsail 32 43.52 Camper Nicholson 32 43.52 Hans Christian 38 43.51 Cheoy Lee Offshore 50 43.45 Fuji Ketch 45 43.44 Mariner Ketch 36 43.43 Vagabond 42 43.38 Sovereign 30 43.36 Hardin 45 Ketch 43.33 Tayana V-42 43.22 Skye 51 43.13 Young Sun 43 PH 43.07 Liberty 49 42.98 Herreshoff Wagon Box 42.97 Bristol 45.5 42.83 Roberts 58 42.7 Corbin 39 42.55 MacNaughton Passagemaker 42.43 Little Harbor 44 42.3 Mariner 35 42.16 Cape George 31 42.16 Swan 48 42.14 Landfall 39 (Sino Amer.) 42.05 Cherubini 44 42.04 Morgan 462(1979) 42 Vagabond 39PH 41.94 Baba 35 41.87 Mason 44 41.86 Folkes 39 Cutter (Steel) 41.76 Chatam 330 41.43 FISHER 30 41.28 Roberts 420 (cat-ketch) 41.25 Tashiba 40 41.15 UWB 333 41.14 Waterline 50 41.08 Westsail 28 41.04 Herreshoff Leeboard Ketch 41 Cherubini 48 40.8 Rhodes Bounty II 40.78 Giles 38 40.78 Tayana 37 Cutter 40.77 Roberts 53 Steel Ketch 40.74 Fuji 35 40.71 Stellar 53 40.32 Columbia 45 40.29 Herreshoff Double-ended Sloop 40.27 Willard 8-ton Cutter 40.23 Herreshoff Nereia 40.15 Amphitrite MS45 40.12 Rawson 30 40.08 Pearson Invicta Mark II 40.06 Union Polaris 36 39.97 Rossiter Pintail (27 F) 39.9 Duncanson 29 39.76 Spencer 44 39.72 Cal 2-46 39.69 Allied Seawind 39.65 Roberts 45 Pilothouse C. C. 39.62 Navy 44 39.57 Gulf 32 Pilothouse 39.56 Islander 44 39.54 Endeavour 43 Ketch 39.53 Irwin 46 Ketch 39.42 Swan 57 CB Sloop 39.38 Kettenburg PCC 39.34 Creala 40 39.34 Crealock 40 Twin Stay 39.33 Golden Hind 31 MKll 39.3 Alberg 37 39.23 Cabo Rico Tiburon 36 38.99 Concordia Yawl 38.98 Quoddy Pilot 38.96 Cabo Rico 38 38.89 Hughes Columbia 391 38.8 Southern Cross 31 38.79 Hylas 54 38.72 Fast Passage 39 38.72 Nicholson 31 38.59 Cheoy Lee Clipper 42 38.56 Gulfstar 50ft Ketch 38.51 Caliber 47LRC 38.46 Mariner 39 C-cockpit 38.41 Van De Stadt 40 (1954) 38.34 Tanton 43 38.29 Columbia 40 38.21 Columbia 41 Shoal Sloop 38.21 Roberts 35 Cutter 38.19 Endeavor 37 38.18 Kelly Peterson 46 38.14 Wauqiez Hood 38 38.13 Herreshoff Restricted Sail Area Cruiser 38.13 Malo 41 38.08 Bolger Leeboard Catboat 37.97 Hout Bay 30 Gaff Cutter 37.95 Coronado 41 37.95 Valiant 50 37.92 Peterson 44 37.9 Hinckley 38 37.85 Bolger Barnowl 37.85 Bristol 41.1 37.84 Passport 47+3 37.83 Dickerson 41 37.83 Heritage 35 By McCurdy & Rhodes 37.8 Formosa 46 37.77 Cheoy Lee Robb 35 Yawl 37.77 Gilbert Scarper Flo 37.73 Slocum 43 Cutter 37.68 CT 34 37.67 Amphitrite 43 37.66 Roberts 28 - Steel 37.66 Tayana 55 37.64 Swan 36 37.61 Rossiter Curlew 37.55 Buehler Emily 37.49 Roberts 470 37.41 Cheoy Lee Clipper 36 37.36 Brolga 33 37.32 Chris Craft Sail Yacht 35 37.3 Dix Hout Bay 30 37.27 Seafarer 38 Ketch 37.23 Crealock 40 37.22 Pearson 385 37.16 Stevens Custom 40 37.1 Hood No Compromise 54 (sloop) 37.08 Seafarer 34 36.93 Irwin 37 Mk V 36.89 Allied Seawind II 36.89 Bristol Channel Cutter 36.87 Swallowcraft Scylla 36.84 Morgan 37OI MKII Sloop 36.78 Herreshoff Araminta 36.77 Cabo Rico 42 36.69 Rafiki 35 36.61 Cabo Rico 37 36.59 Endeavour 40 Sloop 36.59 Nicholson 33 36.58 Hinckley Pilot 35 Sloop 36.58 Watkins 36 36.57 Bristol 40 36.48 Alberg 35 Sloop 36.28 Tashiba 36 36.21 Bolger Ataraxia 36.21 Hinckley Sou'wester 42 Yawl 36.14 Nicholson 35 36.13 Grampian Classic 31 36.12 Lecomte Northeast 38 36.09 Young Sun 35 36.06 Cal 48 36.05 Amel Maramu 36.01 Coronado 35 Ketch (SK) 36.01 Coronado 35 Sloop (SK) 35.88 Rustler 36 35.86 Lord Nelson 35 35.83 Bolger Schuyt Houseboat 35.82 Columbia 45 Sloop 35.77 Tayana 48' Deck Saloon 35.74 Knutson 35 35.73 Fuji 32 Ketch 35.73 Pearson 40 35.7 Hallberg Rassy HR39 35.62 Allied Mistress 39 35.61 Norseman 447 35.6 Island Packet 485 35.59 Sea Trader 35.57 CSY 37 35.57 Ericson 41 35.57 Gibbons 42 35.57 Hinckley Bermuda 40 35.57 Roberts 53 Aluminum 35.57 Tayana 52 35.56 Cambria 44 35.55 Lord Nelson 33 35.54 Passoa 47 35.5 Brewer Sandingo 35.5 Cape Dory 36 35.5 Gail Storm (Exp. Design) 35.45 Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 35.37 Cornish Crabber Pilot 30 35.36 Nauticat 331 35.31 Spencer 53 35.29 Colvin Saugeen Witch 35.29 Island Packet 45 35.26 Bayfield 40 35.26 Lyle Hess 32 35.25 Ericson 39 35.23 Bristol 35.5 35.19 Morgan 45 Ketch 35.18 Freedom 45 35.16 Island Trader 36 35.15 Morgan 462 Sloop (1981) 35.09 Seafarer 31 Yawl 35.03 Jason 35 35.01 Columbia 38 29.9 Morgan 43 (N-M Design) 29.89 Airturbine 1967 Model 009 29.89 Ericson 31i 29.89 Island Packet 350 29.87 Cascade 36 29.84 Pearson Coaster 29.77 Nautilus 40 29.72 Hunter 49 29.67 Alberg 29 29.66 Seafarer Meridian 29.64 Morgan 44 29.61 Pearson Coaster 29.59 Halcyon 27 29.59 Pacific Seacraft 24 29.52 C&C 39 29.51 Cal 40 29.51 Kalik 44 29.49 Hallberg-Rassy 36 29.48 Chance 32/28 29.46 Morgan Classic 41(1987) 29.43 Hunter 450 29.43 LM Glasfiber 32 29.36 Columbia 34 29.32 Pearson 390 29.29 Beneteau First 405(1986) 29.28 Bristol 31.1 29.23 CS36T (deep Keel) 29.23 CS36T (shoal) 29.23 Passoa 54 29.22 LM Glasfiber 30 29.2 Hallberg Rassy Rasmus 35 29.2 Islander 37 29.17 C&C Landfall 35 29.17 Moody 38 29.17 Pearson Coaster 29.14 Ericson 35 II 29.14 Paine Sarah 32 29.13 Brewer Murray 33 29.12 Columbia 30 29.12 Hallberg Rassy 35 29.1 Morris 36 29.09 Catalina 470 Wing/Std 29.09 Hunter HS470 29.06 Glen-L Delphin 36 29.05 Pearson 424 29.05 Rival-Bowman 40 29.03 J/42 29.03 Westerly Berwick 31 29.01 Islander P40 29.01 Terrapin 34 28.99 Shannon 28 28.97 Tartan 37 (K/CB) 28.96 C&C 35 MK II 28.93 Morgan 30 OI 28.92 C&C Frigate 36 28.87 Bristol 27 28.84 Brewer Morgane Le Fay 28.84 Morris 40 28.83 Grampian 2-34 28.82 Columbia 10.7 28.76 Cascade 44 28.74 Colvic Countess 33 28.7 Hunter 466 28.68 Morris 38 28.64 Glen-L Francis Drake 28.64 Warrior 35 28.63 Cape Dory 270 28.63 Sea Sprite 27 28.62 Bolger AS29 No Reacher 28.62 Bolger AS29 With Reacher 28.62 Wauquiez Pilot 40 28.59 Contest 36 28.58 Heritage West Indies 36 28.57 Nordica 30 28.55 Westerly Pentland 28.54 Allegra 24 28.52 Yankee 30 MK II 28.48 Hanse 350 28.47 Contest 33 28.47 Yankee 30 MK I 28.45 Glen-L 30 28.43 Hallberg-Rassy 37 28.43 Pearson 39-2 1986-1991 28.42 Bristol 29 (1968 ) 28.42 Centurion 36 28.41 Morgan 33 OI 28.4 Beneteau First 345 28.39 Bristol 24/Sailstar Corsair 28.38 Morris 32 28.36 Valiant 32 28.35 Hoyt 28 28.33 Morgan 38 28.3 Bristol 33 28.21 Garcia CC 48 28.2 Chris Craft Cherokee 32 28.2 Ericson 36C 28.18 Aloha 34 [Shoal] 28.18 MacGregor 65 28.17 Hunter 42 28.15 Columbia 9.6 28.14 Hughes 38 28.13 Tartan 34c 28.13 Tartan 34c E13 28.13 Watkins 33 28.12 Bandholm 26 28.11 Hunter Legend 45 DK 28.09 Ericson 29 28.08 Catalina 38 (S&S Design) 28.07 Freedom Ph39 28.06 Allmand 35 Pilothouse (1981) 28.06 Jeanneau Sunkiss 45 28.06 Morris 26 28.06 Saga 409 28.06 Wibo 945 28.04 Ranger 33 28.02 Saga 43 28.01 C&C Corvette 28.01 Vancouver 25 28 Cal Cruising 36 27.99 Sailmaster 22c 27.98 Bolger Presto Cruiser 27.97 Pearson Triton 28 27.96 Bandholm 35 27.96 Bolger Jessie Cooper 27.96 Pearson 33 (1969-80) 27.9 Express 35 27.88 Pearson 39 C/B 27.86 Kettenberg 32 27.85 Sabre 42 27.85 Tartan 27 27.85 Tartan 27 (Mark Two) 27.84 Contessa 32 27.84 Radford 14 27.83 Bengel (lm32) 27.83 Tartan 5100 27.82 Gulfstar 44 27.81 Sabre 38 II 27.79 Dickerson 35 27.79 Nordic 40 27.79 S2 11 27.77 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40.3 27.75 Nimble Wanderer MS 27.73 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 49 27.72 Hallberg-Rassy 37 27.7 Harstad 32 Motorsailor 27.64 C&C 40 C/B 27.64 Tartan 41 27.61 Islander 29 (1969) 27.59 Hunter 430 27.54 Cal 39 27.51 Beneteau First 44.7 27.49 Sabre 34 27.47 Rutu(custom) 27.42 Ovni 345 27.38 Southerly 110 27.37 Morgan 45 (N-M Design) 27.32 Tartan 40 Shoal 27.31 S2 35C 27.29 C&C Landfall 38 27.29 LT36 (Andersen Lateen Sloop) 27.28 W-46 27.27 Morris Leigh 30 27.27 W-46 27.25 Beneteau First 44.7 (corrected) 27.22 Columbia Sabre 27.2 Bristol 34 27.19 Sabre 38 MK I 27.18 Aloha 34 [198*] 27.15 Morris 34 27.14 Pearson 37-2 27.13 Dufour 45 Classic 27.13 Westerly Longbow 27.11 Islander 36 27.1 Tartan 40 27.08 Sadler 34 27.07 Bristol 30 27.05 Laurin 28 27.02 Morris 28 26.99 Bolger Volunteer 26.98 Cascade Sloop 26.97 Cape Dory 30 MKII 26.97 Seacracker 33 26.95 Island Packet 32 26.95 Voyager 26 26.93 Island Packet 320 26.91 Sirena 38 26.84 Allmand 31 26.83 New Horizon 26.82 Compromis 36 26.82 Hylas 44 26.82 ODay 39 26.8 Northsea 34 Pilothouse 26.8 Tom Thumb 24 26.79 Sabre 34 MK I 26.76 Hunter 36 (1980-82) 26.75 ODay 37 26.74 C&C 41 26.71 Hallberg Rassy 94 Kutter 26.68 C&C 37 (1985) 26.68 Hallberg-Rassy Monsun 31 26.68 Westerly Sealord 26.62 Top Hat 25 26.6 Contest 31 HTB 26.59 Ericson (Pacific Seacraft) 26.59 Ericson 38-200 26.59 ODay 40 26.57 Dufour 39 CC 26.56 Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 26.56 Watkins 32 26.54 Bolger Whalewatcher 26.54 Farallon 29 26.52 Irwin 30 26.49 Irwin Mk 2 26.46 Hunter 54 26.43 Pearson 10M 26.41 Bavaria Ocean 42 (CC Furling) 26.41 Bavaria Ocean 42 (CC) 26.41 Hanse 461 26.37 Columbia 36 26.36 Bodega 30 26.35 Peterson 35 26.34 Wauquiez 40 Standard 26.33 Genzel Phantom 30 26.31 C&C 30 Mega 26.28 Challenger 32 26.27 ELAN IMPRESSION 344 26.27 HR 28 26.26 Bavaria 35 26.24 Hunter 38 26.23 Hunter 40.5 Bulb Wing Keel 26.21 Westerly Centaur 26 26.19 Northshore 46 26.16 Najad 355 26.15 X-442 MKII 26.12 Van De Stadt 40 26.11 Compass 29 26.11 Coronado 28 26.11 Ericson 32 26.1 Sabre 362 (CB) 26.09 Beneteau 45f5 (tall Rig) 26.09 Catalina 27 Tall Rig DK OB 26.09 Fortune 30 26.07 Beneteau 42CC 26.06 Tanzer 10.5 26.04 Bolger Scow Schooner 26.02 Beneteau Oceanis 510 26.02 C&C Redwing 30 26.02 Gozzard 31 26.01 Benford 36 Donna 25.98 Freedom 35 25.98 Hunter Mystery 35 25.96 Bayfield 32c 25.93 Albin 85 Cumulus 25.92 Beneteau Idylle 11.50 25.92 Morgan 35 25.92 Sabre 28 Series III 25.91 Cal 35 MkII 25.9 C&C 40 25.89 Dufour 44 25.89 Hallberg-Rassy 29 25.89 Temptress 34 25.87 Kenner Privateer 26 25.86 Oceanis 49 25.85 Caliber 33 25.85 Westerly 36 Corsair 25.84 Miura 30 25.84 Sabre 28 25.84 Sabre 32 (K/CB) 25.82 Aerodyne 47 25.82 Grand Soleil 46.3 25.81 J/40 25.8 Oday 32 Center Cockpit 25.79 Hunter Vision 36 25.79 Wauquiez Centurion 45s (std) 25.77 Beneteau Oceanis 40 CC 25.77 Catalina 400 Mk II 25.77 Ericson 35 MKIII 25.76 C&C 38 MK II (1976) 25.76 Dufour 31 25.75 Hunter 426 25.72 C&C 121 Cruise Ed. Shoal Dr. 25.72 C&C 121 Cruise Edition Shoal Draft 25.72 Nonsuch 36 25.71 Tanton 43 Cat Ketch 25.7 Tartan 372 Scheel 25.69 Pearson 36-2 25.65 Bavaria 47 25.65 Benford 37.5 25.65 Pearson 38 25.65 Shields | 34584|34562|2017-12-17 14:34:04|opuspaul|Re: Hull lines|>>>>>Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath. I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Modern designs try to pack as much room as they can into a fixed length marina slip.   If a 40 foot boat of a particular volume and displacement, had the same volume and displacement stretched out to 50 feet, my bet is that it would be a better and faster overall boat.  It would also be more forgiving.  It is harder to keep a wide sterned boat sailing well since they are more cranky when heeled so it is harder to keep it "in the groove".The exception is if you get it up on a plane.   This seldom happens with loaded down cruising boats.  My friends have a 45 footer that has hit 18 knots but it is too hard on people when they sail it that fast.  The noise pounding and and banging at that speed is just too much.   Normal comfortable speed for them is about 8 knots.   I love following the latest offshore racers.  These very fast and wide round the world or mini transat boats use either sophisticated and very expensive gyro stabilized autopilots or full crews.  The sails can cost as much as my whole boat.  Their sailors are superstars and the equivalent of Olympic athletes who never seem to sleep and live on granola bars.  I prefer more moderate designs....they are more real world and will take care of you and keep going when you are sick or don't have the sails trimmed quite right.  The difference in speed is all relative.   Look at an older round the world racer compared to a newer one.  The older design may not be as fast but it will sail with a windvane.  I would rather be on it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpmF7m5onxUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKT2JdbTE98| 34585|34562|2017-12-17 14:46:50|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| Absolutely.   It is just one measure.   It completely ignores actual shape.  After reading hundreds of pages of Marchaj, it is clear it is a very tough problem, first to define, and then to compute.   What is comfort, precisely.   Then how many hours would it take on a super computer, or how many hours in the wave tank, or on the ocean would it take to fairly measure a design.    Some day, the computational ability to analyze boats will hit the desktop... but then will a layman be able to understand the output?   Will we be arguing that what the software defines as comfort is not what someone else would define as comfort?    It is an unanswerable problem.   I was asked a question, I gave a list and my reasons.   To me CR just seems to be a way to sort.   It reminds us, density is good.   Small, light and tossy is not as good.   The Passoa 47 is a pretty heavy boat, and a nice big one.     >I think it also favors longer overhangs Yes, by the 70/30 mix between LWL and LOA.    But still, many bluff-end double-enders are favoured with no overhang at all.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     I remember when the Comfort Ratio first came out.  It never really caught on.   I understand what it is trying to do but coming up with a comfort figure is next to impossible.   Everyone will have a different opinion but I don't think it takes overall length in to account as much as it should.  I think it also favors longer overhangs without taking in account hull shape in the ends.  There are plenty of modern, long waterline yachts with a good motion. If I was using the Comfort Ratio, I would only use it to compare similar length boats.   A good example.   A Passoa 47 has almost an identical Comfort Ratios as an Cape Dory 36.   I know what boat I would want to be on offshore.    Hands down it would be the longer and more modern 47.  It would be much more comfortable offshore.  | 34586|34562|2017-12-17 14:51:29|opuspaul|Re: Hull lines|This is another good example of why I don't like the Comfort Ratio.  The CT-54 is a big fat and broad clipper bowed pirate ship.  It's heavy weight and long keel may be comfortable on some points of sail but going to windward it would be a bear.  I sailed on a similar boat for 19 days pounding into the short and steep chop of the  trade winds from Tahiti to Hawaii.  It would have scored very high on the Comfort Ratio but you felt every single wave hitting the bow.  The bigger waves would just stop the boat dead.  As soon as the boat got going again, the next wave would just stop it again.  It was a horrible trip.   A finer bowed boat like my Origami 36 may be bit wetter but it would just keep driving, point much higher and be much more comfortable even though it would have a much lower score.| 34587|34562|2017-12-17 15:07:12|prairiemaidca|Re: Hull lines|Were not the original large overhangs on sailboats a way to reduce the measured water line for racing only to have it restored when the vessel was in a more healed over position?  I definitely agree that one's man comfort on a boat or anything else in life is not always going to be something that will be agreed upon.  I can only imagine the discomfort of having a boat that stalls going into every large wave.  I know that mine sure doesn't even when the anchor on the bow disappears under the water.  I also know that with 10 to 20 knts of wind I can set it on course and walk around it on most points of sail with out even using the self steering.  One comment was that some didn't find them visually appealing, one again that is in the eye of the beholder.  It was the look of the Swain 36 that first caught my eye in a Pacific Sailor magazine article and got the ball rolling on me wanting and then making one.  Based on the number of people that have rowed over or stopped on the docks to comment on how much they like her look I'd say we aren't alone in our thinking that our boats have a certain appeal.  Martin.. (Prairie Maid)| 34588|34562|2017-12-17 15:56:29|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My first boat had a too large stern and too fine bow. Running in the trades,  I had to shorten sail a long way to keep her self steering. Altho she could bash off 160 miles  days to windward, her lack of directional stability meant 90 mile runs downwind ,were exceptional, and rare , for her.  More directional stability would have let me carry enough sail to  make more reasonable runs. My second boat had a similar problem, but not as bad. On my current boat I filled  the bow lines of my second boat out about 3 inches and reduced the stern waterlines similar amount.The improvement in directional stability was huge. allowing her to self steer directly  downwind, with no wind vane and no one at the helm. The ability to drive a cruising boat hard is largely porportionate to how much sail the boat can carry, without  getting out of control. That means hull balance, on a cruising boatOn racing boats, it means changing helmsmen  every 30 minutes, not an option on most cruising boats.Ok, thanks, but let me imagine there is a compromise between 40/50 years ago hull shapes and nowdays trend large sterns.Think also about advantages of large sterns like confort, trade winds speed, large increment of inside volume and maybe not so bad aesthetics.Last but not least a very functional cockpit with many possible pragmatic options.Mini transat small yachts cross the ocean, open 60 do the same around the world. Ok, speed is the first goal to them and not safety, but do they really soffer underwater bows?As an example, Ovni alluminium yachts, although quite large sterns, are a sort of compromise?Maybe is also a matter of underwater hull lines...| 34589|34562|2017-12-17 15:57:50|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| That brings up an important point.  What is the score for a custom-build boat?   What if one decided to invest more muscle in the pulling it together, and decided to make the hull a little thicker?   Or decided to make the keels just a bit deeper?  Or one person fitted it out with a bare hull, food and candles (Moistessier) where another loaded it down with far more interior, gear and cargo?    Most every boat that scores in the 20s could be overloaded with gear and weighed down to the point that is scored well into the 30s.   This would have a genuine impact on comfort (good) and maneuverability (bad) and speed (bad) -- so long as the added weight was well fixed and low.   So worst-case, a BS boat would certainly be right up on the list if heavily loaded and ballasted.    I have heard people talk about modifying the BS designs all the way from a double-ender to a wide-stern junk shape.   One has the options to modify a BS as they are building it to make it what they want.   If one wanted a sharper bow, it seems one need only pull the gunwales a little closer together about 5-8 feet from the bow as one is tacking the bow, before putting in the deck -- remember a little linear change goes a long way on 3D shape.   This could have significant effects with the loss of only a few percent in the volume of the fore cabin.   As for shear and overhangs, just buy sheets a little longer and first draw the proper curves on the sheets.   Then smoothly modify the bow curve and shear curve by just a few inches -- again, a little goes a long way.  Together, the new intersection of these two curves could be a foot or more beyond the bow of the standard design -- an added foot of overhang is a lot.  Further, the intersection point of the bow might be 8-10 inches further off the water.   Step back 50 feet and it will make a large noticeable difference when it is pulled together.   I am not saying for sure any of this will make the design better in any way at all -- I am just giving examples of how one might modify an origami pretty easily when it is still not yet a closed shape.   With a design that has proven serviceable when unmodified, and the option to modify, how can it be better?   Yes, more compound curvature for more arbitrary hull shapes  (supposing that one found one that was actually and not just supposedly better)  but then one gives up the build advantage of origami.   I doubt the gains would be worth the time. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 2:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     This is another good example of why I don't like the Comfort Ratio.  The CT-54 is a big fat and broad clipper bowed pirate ship.  It's heavy weight and long keel may be comfortable on some points of sail but going to windward it would be a bear.  I sailed on a similar boat for 19 days pounding into the short and steep chop of the  trade winds from Tahiti to Hawaii.  It would have scored very high on the Comfort Ratio but you felt every single wave hitting the bow.  The bigger waves would just stop the boat dead.  As soon as the boat got going again, the next wave would just stop it again.  It was a horrible trip.   A finer bowed boat like my Origami 36 may be bit wetter but it would just keep driving, point much higher and be much more comfortable even though it would have a much lower score. | 34590|34562|2017-12-17 16:10:30|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| Brent wrote: >On my current boat I filled  the bow lines of my second boat out about 3 inches and reduced the stern waterlines similar amount. >The improvement in directional stability was huge. allowing her to self steer directly  downwind, with no wind vane and no one at the helm. >The ability to drive a cruising boat hard is largely porportionate to how much sail the boat can carry, without  getting out of control. >That means hull balance, on a cruising boat And there is an example of how inches count, and refinement of a design really works.   I wonder how many commercial boats went through 3 complete builds and years of testing for each?   Obviously some, long-standing favourites from companies in contiguous production, and some from the most prolific designers who had many attempts to refine their designs.   It is good company for Brent.   No doubt while cooking meals and standing watches Brent the builder put a lot of thought into how he would modify his next boat.   That is not something that can be written in a shake-down report and communicated with the same fidelity to a design office.  Brent is by far not the first designer to actually extensively sail his own designs, but again, that puts Brent in good company.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 3:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My first boat had a too large stern and too fine bow. Running in the trades,  I had to shorten sail a long way to keep her self steering. Altho she could bash off 160 miles  days to windward, her lack of directional stability meant 90 mile runs downwind ,were exceptional, and rare , for her.  More directional stability would have let me carry enough sail to  make more reasonable runs. My second boat had a similar problem, but not as bad. On my current boat I filled  the bow lines of my second boat out about 3 inches and reduced the stern waterlines similar amount. The improvement in directional stability was huge. allowing her to self steer directly  downwind, with no wind vane and no one at the helm. The ability to drive a cruising boat hard is largely porportionate to how much sail the boat can carry, without  getting out of control. That means hull balance, on a cruising boat On racing boats, it means changing helmsmen  every 30 minutes, not an option on most cruising boats. Ok, thanks, but let me imagine there is a compromise between 40/50 years ago hull shapes and nowdays trend large sterns. Think also about advantages of large sterns like confort, trade winds speed, large increment of inside volume and maybe not so bad aesthetics.Last but not least a very functional cockpit with many possible pragmatic options. Mini transat small yachts cross the ocean, open 60 do the same around the world. Ok, speed is the first goal to them and not safety, but do they really soffer underwater bows? As an example, Ovni alluminium yachts, although quite large sterns, are a sort of compromise? Maybe is also a matter of underwater hull lines... | 34591|34562|2017-12-17 16:10:30|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : If 95% of the boats don't go offshore and that 95% are happy, then the builder is off the hook for those who do ,and are not happy. I have always refused to design or build anything which is not suited for offshore,  regardless of what the owner 's plans are.Puts me at disadvantage to those  designers who's only interest  is their personal bank accounts,and don't give  a rat's ass about the safety of their  clients ( Like Bob Perry ,etc.) , those who simply cater  to the mass market majority. I have some some responsibility for the next owner, who may well go offshore. No predicting that.  I'm not sure my statement was clear, my error.  I'm saying that the boats that are not going out to sea (the majority)  are the ones that do not get subjected to long periods of open ocean and all it's various weather and sea states.  They can simply look at the weather and head to the next marina.  Hence the builders will build to suit what is going to sell.  Should they design and sell all boats to be safe and comfortable on long passages, oh course but they are in the business of selling as much of their product as possible.  I guess that is why some of us built our own and can take some solitude that our well built and functional hulls will not let us down or make our journeys so adverse that we wouldn't want to go anywhere, coastal or blue water.  Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 34592|34562|2017-12-17 19:13:07|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for| >Were not the original large overhangs on sailboats a way to reduce the >measured water line for racing only to have it restored when the vessel >was in a more healed over position? This is partially true, however it is mistaken belief to think that overhangs serve no other useful purpose.   First, overhangs serve no useful purpose in a modern racing boat that is designed to operate exclusively in planing, in excess of the hull speed one would calculate from the LWL.   If one has such a cruiser, and a canting keel to get it back upright when it flips, then you do not need overhangs, ever.  See the video recently posted to this thread that shows a Hugo Boss racer near the Kerguelen seeming to experience less pitch angle motion in the same sea as a navy boat that is far larger.    If however, your boat travels at displacement speeds most of the time, then read on.   Yes, overhangs have that effect of increasing LWL when heeled.  Particularly forward overhangs were accentuated for that purpose when sailing class rules favoured it, but, both aft and foreward overhangs existed long before sailing class rules penalized flat-water, no heel length of water line and encouraged overhangs.  Overhangs were favoured in work boats where simple performance and reliability was the criterion.   Proper clipper ship passenger transports of the 1800s were not designed to race rules, but designed for performance in waves.  That is where a proper clipper-bow came from, however a modern clipper bow included for aesthetics and everything we see pictures of now, is not necessarily a proper clipper bow and may have a net detrimental effect on performance.   I am struggling to find photographs that pre-date racing rules, or of vessels built before any racing rules, as photography of things that were moving was really hard before say 1910.   Here is a picture of a harbour in 1880 -- note the clipper bows had a vertical entry into the water that curved forward into an overhang.   https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e7/9d/a7/e79da7b59dbeba6e91b3dcd91cfda171.jpg The sailing fishing schooners of the early 1900s serve as an example too. The Delawana built originally as a fishing schooner only, before the first 1920 fishing boat races, competed in the first fishing boat races in 1920 ultimately finishing second.   Note the aft overhang, but less front overhang. https://novascotia.ca/archives/images/MacAskill/200311872.jpg The Esperanto built originally as a fishing schooner only, beat the Delawana in the first 1920 fishing boat race.  It also has a rear overhang, but less forward overhang.  https://goodmorninggloucester.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/elsie-1.jpg A Grand Banks fishing schooner, the Margaret K. Smith built after the 1920 racing rules, but also used as a working fishing boat.  It has both fore and aft overhangs. https://novascotia.ca/archives/schooners/archives.asp?ID=107 The Bluenose, also built after the 1920 racing rules, but also used as a working fishing boat.   It has both fore and aft overhangs.   http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q0x50zc8HUM/UI0LryOS2VI/AAAAAAAAA8A/gbv4V3cZXBo/s1600/bluenose_plano.jpg http://avhs2.ednet.ns.ca/staff/wile/Bluennose%20Wall%20Model.jpg Despite the last two being perhaps influenced by race rules, these were still real working boats.  The overhangs are not extreme and not beyond usefulness in ordinary work.   The CCA rules which eventually became the IOR rules and encouraged poor yacht design and separately huge overhangs, those started in 1933 long after all these boats were built.   The result was the "dish", a short, wide boat with huge overhangs that sat on top of the water.   They had very poor stability beyond a certain heel angle, but much higher initial stability. >The IOR rule encouraged wide short boats with limited stability.  (Wikipedia) That is not a description of the Bluenose, it was a very long slender boat.    Mine is a 41 foot boat with a beam of 10 feet, 4 inches -- that is a narrow boat.   The overhangs were not specifically the problem, though that aspect of design shows best in the still photographs taken beam-on.   The problem is the D/L ratio was falling below 200.   Normally over 300 is favoured for off-shore work.   (Mine is 380)  Yes, a boat with huge overhangs with a tiny waterline, that has a D/L = (D/2240)/(L/100)^3 of less than 200 is a really light boat of maybe 5 tons for an overall length of 40 feet.    That was decades ago, nearly all those silly boats have sunk.  From Cruising World Feb 1988: (Nearly a decade after Fastnet/79 catastrophe and the correction to thinking it brought.) And what kind of boat would Olin Stephens choose if he were asked to sail trans-Atlantic this spring? "A big boat," was his immediate reply.  Pressed to think in smaller terms, he decided on a 40-footer.  He said he would he would want at least 30 feet on the waterline and a boat "not too terribly beamy" -- at most, 10 feet, 9 inches and balanced on the ends.  It could be made of wood, aluminium or fibreglass, as long as it was built well.  It would be yawl rigged with a small mizzen. That is a narrow boat he is describing.  30 feet LWL on a 40 foot LOA boat is 10 feet of overhangs....  why would he want any overhangs if overhangs at all in 1988 if they were of no use or worse yet, dangerous?   Why would he for instance not want a brand new 1987 Hunter 40 Legend with only 7 feet of overhangs and 13.42' beam ?    It has a luxurious aft state room with a double bed and space to walk on both sides of the bed.    The boat he describes might be just a bit smaller than his 1929 Dorade, but the same sail plan and proportions.  Or his 1935 New York Yacht Club 32: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2119 Which coincidentally looks very similar to to the Rhodes Altair, Bounty II and Pearson 41.  Maybe he was just a sucker for nostalgia and knew nothing about boats.    Overhangs tend to create a tender heeling either side of vertical with an increasing stiffness as one approaches 45 degrees.    At 45 degrees the sail forces drop rapidly with increasing heel angle as the projected area of the wind onto the sail goes down and more wind is spilled off the top of the sail without contributing to forces.   This is how overhangs assist with heeling stability.    An aft overhang with shear helps with a following sea, giving the leverage to lift the stern when overtaken by a wave, but, without so much back there that it helps push the boat laterally when overtaken on a rear quarter to pivot the boat beam-to the wave.   When speaking of the tendency to pivot, one should look at the overhang distance from the trailing edge of the keel.   The longer the keel, the more aft one can have without being pivoted.   This is a stability problem Marchaj gets into with fin keels.   To put it simply, a fat aft and fin keel = trouble in a following/aft quartering sea.   Front overhangs and shear to lift the bow well above the water helps when one wants to keep the bow from planting.   Yes, the effect might be the boat slows down, and that can be irritating.   In smaller waves, for a given water line length, it makes the deck larger, and tends to keep the deck drier.   In larger waves, it reduces the chance of a pitch-pole. After the silly overhangs of some very light, very wide boats ("dishes") that served little purpose beyond the CCA/IOR rules, and marinas charging per foot of overall length, and people wanting family-sized cabins, overhangs went out of style.  That is not to say they are not of some real use.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 3:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines     Were not the original large overhangs on sailboats a way to reduce the measured water line for racing only to have it restored when the vessel was in a more healed over position?  I definitely agree that one's man comfort on a boat or anything else in life is not always going to be something that will be agreed upon.  I can only imagine the discomfort of having a boat that stalls going into every large wave.  I know that mine sure doesn't even when the anchor on the bow disappears under the water.  I also know that with 10 to 20 knts of wind I can set it on course and walk around it on most points of sail with out even using the self steering.  One comment was that some didn't find them visually appealing, one again that is in the eye of the beholder.  It was the look of the Swain 36 that first caught my eye in a Pacific Sailor magazine article and got the ball rolling on me wanting and then making one.  Based on the number of people that have rowed over or stopped on the docks to comment on how much they like her look I'd say we aren't alone in our thinking that our boats have a certain appeal.   Martin.. (Prairie Maid) | 34593|34562|2017-12-17 20:18:48|opuspaul|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for|All other things equal, for a given length of boat, it has been proven again and again that the longer length of waterline, the faster the top speed of the boat.  The exception is in very light winds where wave action means little and the shorter length waterline boat may have less surface area.The racing rules have screwed up many good boat designs over the years as designers tried to get around the rules.     I think that a lot of the long ended boats were made specifically to get over the penalties and meant little to speed or comfort.   On some of the extreme designs of the late 1800s or early 1900s, the bow overhangs were so long and so slender, they are almost part of the bowsprit.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene_Herreshoff#/media/File:NY_30.jpgI think these designs were so narrow and deep that they started penalizing ballast in an effort to get stronger, wider and more wholesome boats.  There have been many attempts to get better boats over the years but in each case, the racing seems to drive it.  Boats eventually became quite shallow and lightly ballasted.  It became so extreme that the rule died out in favor of others.  http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/design-1054-finisterre.htmlhttp://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_services/articles/ratingrules.phpThe old designers, when not designing to a rule, almost always went for a long waterline.  Ticonderoga is a great example.  She was very fast and even though she had a clipper bow, her bow was fairly fine and didn't slam too hard into the waves.  She broke many records that held for many years.  What a beaut.....http://classicyachtinfo.com/yachts/ticonderoga/If I was designing a cruising boat from scratch and wanted the best all round design, I would go for the most vertical stem I could where the anchor didn't bang against the bow while you retrieve it.  The transom would just kiss the water.  Funny enough, Brent's designs are much like this.....a 32 foot waterline on a 36 foot boat is quite long.   Compare his 36 to a Crealock 37 or Cape Dory 36 which are similar proportions but  have waterlines about 5 feet shorter.   If funds were unlimited, I would get something like this :).http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn064/dsn064.htmlhttp://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/kiwiroa.php| 34594|34562|2017-12-17 21:07:04|opuspaul|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for|>Were not the original large overhangs on sailboats a way to reduce the >measured water line for racing only to have it restored when the vessel >was in a more healed over position? Maybe as a rule cheat but I never really got that idea for practical reasons.   The way I think of it is the short waterline boat (whether healed over or not) is just making a bigger hole in the water at speed,  much like a boat with a very low prismatic coefficient.  It sits lower down into this hole until the bow and stern sections are immersed in the larger bow and stern wave and taking the weight.  This to me is a consequence, not an advantage.   I really think the only advantage of a short waterline is performance in light airs due to less wetted surface area.   Don't get me wrong,  this can be quite significant since most of the hull drag comes from skin friction.    A very fast boat moving at speed has small bow and stern waves, not large ones.  http://www.setsail.com/hull-shape-displacement-and-boat-speed/https://www.sailboat-cruising.com/hull-drag.html| 34595|34562|2017-12-18 00:39:15|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for| Thank you for the detailed post.   I think people are thinking the wrong way in this sense.  I am not taking a long boat and imagining it with a shorter water line.   That is the penalizing way of thinking about it and it is well ... backwards thinking.   Take all the crap and gear (including fuel tank, engine, head, batteries, water tank) and supplies you are going to bring on a boat and pile it on the dock, crew, dunnage, all in.   Weigh it and determine its volume.   It has to fit in the boat, and the boat has to carry it.   The water line length, water line width and the draft better determine the total displacement of the boat than anything to do with LOA.   The pile of crap on the dock has more to do with what volume of boat that is under the water.   The actual weight of the structure under the water, just consider it a weight tax on the crap on the dock.   Now imagine the sides of the boat raise straight from the water line, and provide zero overhangs -- apply another weight tax to the crap on the dock.   Add on the decks, and consider these all part of the weight tax.   Add a rig, and for argument sake, a bowsprit and sprits to the beam and aft to get the spread needed to support the rig, all of this minimal structure to allow whatever rig one figures works with that amount of hull under the water.   Again, add a tax to the weight on the dock. The total weight of the boat is the mass of the crap on the dock, times a factor.   And this has to be equal to buoyancy which is equal to displaced water which is proportional to LWL, WWL (width at water line), and draft.    Now climb inside.  Humm, there are no goofy sloped walls, I can stand up everywhere, but, there just are not as many corners and ends to stow things.  I have these foolish standing lockers taking up floor space to put all the gear in.   I can stack people in bunks, three bunks high, but there is not as much space to walk between bunks.  Really, when I think about it, there is not much space inside.   I want more space.   I have two options. Option A:  More floor area, more interior deck area at the water line.   So, do I make the depth of the bilge more shallow, and maybe put a fine fin keel on it, and maybe puff out the beam and lengthen the water line?   Now I have a boat mainly sitting on top of the water, with a lot of interior volume because it has a large water footprint.   The plunge restoring force is sharp, like hitting a wall.  If I lift the boat from the water, the shallow bilges mean the volume of water displaced by the boat under water drops very rapidly over the course of maybe a foot.   Going the other way, pushing the boat down into the water, I am displacing the previous footprint of water which is wide and flat -- that is a lot of force.   With straight sides, the force increases in direct proportion to the depth I push the boat down, until water washes the deck, then the force is constant from that point.   At its neutral position, the boat is like a ball bearing resting on stiff rubber, lift it just a little, the force nearly disappears.   Press it down the force is large and grows constantly.   Name a vehicle suspension system that is like that and comfortable.   It is like a perhaps a giant dump truck with hard springs.   On a bumpy road, it pounds.  The chine near the water line is the cause.   The sharper the chine, up to the limit of 90 degrees, the stronger the pounding.    If one has a multi-chine boat or a shear-bent banana chine boat, the total force diagram will be more gradual as in the transition as more or less of the chine is in the water.   For a real boat, it is not as sharp as a hammer blow.   I have however seen production boats (no names) where there is a chine between the freeboard and the bilge that is near the water line and close to level to the water line all the way from front to back.   Planing racing boats are like this.   I imagine when they are not moving fast, pounding and planing along the tops of the waves, they are standing still pounding at a lower frequency with every heave of the waves.   or Option B: Slope out the sides and the end of the boat to make the topside deck bigger, and add volume, but keep the water line dimensions close to the same. Lets keep the deep bilge of our old style boat, that maybe goes down into a keel in one body (as opposed to a fin stuck onto a round-bottomed body) and keep the water line and the beam water line and ask myself: How much more weight I am really adding if I make the deck a little longer and have it slope down to the water line? Lets look at adding some deck on either side in the beam direction b.    This consider incrementing the width of the deck by of b = sqrt (SS^2 + F^2) on each side -- where SS is the side slope length from the water to the deck, and F is the freeboard, the perpendicular distance from the water to the deck.  The added length of material needed to make the sides esw = SS - F = sqrt(b^2 + F^2).   Play with the math, until one makes a dish that flairs out a lot above the water line, esw is small.   Now, b will interfere with roll stability, so, we want to keep it smaller so, in all cases esw is small.   So the cost is 2*(b + esw)*LWL + 2 vertical triangles to keep the hull closed at the front and back of 2*(1/2*2*b*F).  But b is small, so esw is really small, so, we seem to have gained both deck and volume for mostly just the cost of deck.   That seems like a really fair trade to me.    Now lets consider adding deck length, d , that is, overhangs at either end.     The extra deck is length at one end is d = sqrt(S^2 - F^2) -- where S is the slope length from the water to the deck at the bow or stern (consider a double-ender for now) and F is the freeboard, the vertical distance from the water to the deck.   The extra length of material to make the prow of the boat slope up to the deck esl =  S - F = sqrt(d^2 + F^2) - F.   Play with the math, esl is very small until one gets to some large overhangs, which we might consider having.   So lets put the boat back together.   The total increase in area of the deck is about 1) 2*d*WWL + 2*b*LWL + 2*d*b where b/WWL is small compared to d/LWL.   The cost was about: 2) 2*d*WWL + 2*b*LWL + 2*d*b + 2*esw*LWL + 2*sqrt(d^2+b^2)* (F + esw) But esw is really small so, the cost is pretty close to: 3) 2*d*WWL + 2*b*LWL + 2*d*b + 2*sqrt(d^2+b^2) * F In summary, we have taken the underwater part of the boat and deck in the beam direction to slope the sides of the boat out in the beam direction and added deck in the fore-aft direction to create overhangs.  The cost minus the deck gained leaves: 4) 2*sqrt(d^s+b^2) * F.   So lets stick in some numbers, which coincidentally is my boat.   WWL is 8 feet.   LWL is 28 feet.... humm, neither of these figure into the extra cost -- not in a large way, no, not after allocating the part of the cost to gaining deck space.   So lets say F is 5 feet b is 1 foot and d is 6 feet of overhang at each end.   The extra deck gained is about (from 1): 2*6*8 + 2*1*28 + 2*1*6 = 138 square feet.   The surplus cost is about (from 4): 2*sqrt(6^2+1^2) * 5 = 60 square feet  --- about 43% extra in material beyond the payoff in just deck area.    But now I have gained a volume of about: 5) b*LWL + d*WWL + 2*1/3 d*2*b*F =    116 cubic feet over the vertical-sided boat, and all of that is lockers, and room to push bunks out of the passage ways.   That is 116 lockers about the size of a milk crate.  Imaging lining up 116 milk crates on a dock.  Take the first 5 make them fuel tank, the next 8 make them water tank, take 8 and made them a propane locker....  Sure you can fill them all very fast, no problem, but that is not the point.   Think how more air space you have in the cabin not taken up by lockers intruding into the standing floor area -- air space has no weight and that is what your overhangs are buying you.   Not to mention the added deck space, enough to seat 8 people, for dinner.   That is a lot of extra out-of-the-way stowage.... all for an additional penalty of 60 square feet more hull material, after discounting the costs one-for-one for valuable added deck space.  What the heck, how is that possible?  Because the up the slope sides of the boat only get bigger by a factor of sqrt(S^2-F^2) -- geometry is your friend here.  On a 28 foot LWL boat, one more inch of hull sides slope length on 5 feet of freeboard gives you 11 more inches of deck for a total of 51.33 square feet more deck (that pays for itself one-for-one as added topside deck space is gold), and 25.6 more milk crates of storage for the surtax of 1"x28'x2 = 4.6 more square feet of steel on the sides.    It is crazy how the non-linearity really pays off to have some side and fore and aft overhang over none at all.    The equivalent of the mass of a little more than one 5x10 sheet of hull steel in the sides, or about two more sheets of plywood in fibreglass or wood in exchange for 116 milk crates of stowage inside, in addition to the gain and cost of the added deck space -- that is the surtax to turn a 28 footer LWL into a 40 footer LOA.   What fool would not take that bargain ?    Naturally the real $ building cost and the real weight cost to changing the location of the water line is the area of added deck PLUS this surtax of 60 square feet to turn a 28 foot LWL/ 28 foot LOA into a 28 foot LWL / 40 foot LOA.   I am just assuming that one is happy to pay the direct cost for each square foot of deck as the gain is obvious and useful. Overhangs are therefore a flipping bargain over having a vertical sided boat rising from the waterline !   Now lets think about lifting it out of the water and plunging it into the water.   There is no big flat bottom -- the hull narrows smoothly in both dimensions to the keel.  As I lift it out, the force drops parabolically to almost nothing over about 3 feet of rise.   If I plunge it into the water, the force rises, again parabolically for about 5 feet, giving more incremental resistance for each increment I push it down.   Because the tangent across the water line is contiguous, because there is no chine near the water line, the curve between rising and plunging is completely contiguous, and I get a softer effective suspension with a travel of probably 4 feet in the majority of cases -- plunging or rising no more than 2 feet from the nominal water line.   There is no pounding or impact.   Can you think of a vehicle that has such a suspension?  A silly big Monster truck maybe with long-travel springs?   Which truck would you prefer running over a chop the size of cars?  The truck with hard suspension, or the one with more travel ? So in summary, take the part of the boat under the water, and put vertical sides, a deck and a rig on the boat -- the displacement is just the total cargo times a factor.    Choose a LWL, WWL, and draft to float that.   Then imagine adding overhangs and side deck and it is a bargain, and one gets a softer ride as a bonus, plus all the other stability reasons that overhangs are good.   That is the right way to look at overhangs -- an addition that provides how much added deck space, and how much added volume, at what cost of weight of hull material.   It is backwards to think of overhangs as a reduction of LWL from some arbitrarily chosen LOA.     The marina wants you to think backwards.   The people who make flat bottom boats with chines near the water line and stick a fin keel on them want you to think backwards.   The physics does not.   Working up from the water line really had nothing to do with racing, it was simply the proper way to think about boats.   Thinking down from the deck is backwards. That is why old boats were always had dimensions in their names that were the LWL not the LOA.   The New York 30, the New York 35, the Altair 28 ....    That is what is important, not LOA.    The amount that LOA is larger than LWL is a gift, a bonus, a gain.      Look of overhangs like a present that keeps on giving a minimal surplus cost. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for     All other things equal, for a given length of boat, it has been proven again and again that the longer length of waterline, the faster the top speed of the boat.  The exception is in very light winds where wave action means little and the shorter length waterline boat may have less surface area. The racing rules have screwed up many good boat designs over the years as designers tried to get around the rules.     I think that a lot of the long ended boats were made specifically to get over the penalties and meant little to speed or comfort.   On some of the extreme designs of the late 1800s or early 1900s, the bow overhangs were so long and so slender, they are almost part of the bowsprit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene_Herreshoff#/media/File:NY_30.jpg I think these designs were so narrow and deep that they started penalizing ballast in an effort to get stronger, wider and more wholesome boats.  There have been many attempts to get better boats over the years but in each case, the racing seems to drive it.  Boats eventually became quite shallow and lightly ballasted.  It became so extreme that the rule died out in favor of others.  http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/design-1054-finisterre.html http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_services/articles/ratingrules.php Good Old Boat - No feasr mast stepping article www.goodoldboat.com Rating rules shaped our boats. By Ted Brewer. Article taken from Good Old Boat magazine: Volume 3, Number 3, May/June 2000. Universal Rule… International Offshore ... The old designers, when not designing to a rule, almost always went for a long waterline.  Ticonderoga is a great example.  She was very fast and even though she had a clipper bow, her bow was fairly fine and didn't slam too hard into the waves.  She broke many records that held for many years.  What a beaut..... http://classicyachtinfo.com/yachts/ticonderoga/ Ticonderoga - Classic Yacht Info classicyachtinfo.com A legendary classic sailboat designed by L. Francis Herreshoff for the intrepid yachtsman Harry Noyes, the 72-foot, clipper-bowed ketch was originally named Tioga II ... If I was designing a cruising boat from scratch and wanted the best all round design, I would go for the most vertical stem I could where the anchor didn't bang against the bow while you retrieve it.  The transom would just kiss the water.  Funny enough, Brent's designs are much like this.....a 32 foot waterline on a 36 foot boat is quite long.   Compare his 36 to a Crealock 37 or Cape Dory 36 which are similar proportions but  have waterlines about 5 feet shorter.   If funds were unlimited, I would get something like this :). http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn064/dsn064.html RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - R460 Steel Kit Cruising Yacht www.radford-yacht.com The R460 is another of the Radford 1000 Series steel cruising yachts - designed as a long distance, live aboard cruising yacht with the emphasis on safety ... http://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/kiwiroa.php About Kiwi Roa - PeterSmith.net.nz www.petersmith.net.nz About Peter’s yacht: 15 m aluminium cruising sailboat designed for all conditions and destinations; cumulation of decades of boat-building and world cruising ... | 34596|34562|2017-12-18 00:51:04|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for| Two formula errors: corrected below: Thank you for the detailed post.   I think people are thinking the wrong way in this sense.  I am not taking a long boat and imagining it with a shorter water line.   That is the penalizing way of thinking about it and it is well ... backwards thinking.   Take all the crap and gear (including fuel tank, engine, head, batteries, water tank) and supplies you are going to bring on a boat and pile it on the dock, crew, dunnage, all in.   Weigh it and determine its volume.   It has to fit in the boat, and the boat has to carry it.   The water line length, water line width and the draft better determine the total displacement of the boat than anything to do with LOA.   The pile of crap on the dock has more to do with what volume of boat that is under the water.   The actual weight of the structure under the water, just consider it a weight tax on the crap on the dock.   Now imagine the sides of the boat raise straight from the water line, and provide zero overhangs -- apply another weight tax to the crap on the dock.   Add on the decks, and consider these all part of the weight tax.   Add a rig, and for argument sake, a bowsprit and sprits to the beam and aft to get the spread needed to support the rig, all of this minimal structure to allow whatever rig one figures works with that amount of hull under the water.   Again, add a tax to the weight on the dock. The total weight of the boat is the mass of the crap on the dock, times a factor.   And this has to be equal to buoyancy which is equal to displaced water which is proportional to LWL, WWL (width at water line), and draft.    Now climb inside.  Humm, there are no goofy sloped walls, I can stand up everywhere, but, there just are not as many corners and ends to stow things.  I have these foolish standing lockers taking up floor space to put all the gear in.   I can stack people in bunks, three bunks high, but there is not as much space to walk between bunks.  Really, when I think about it, there is not much space inside.   I want more space.   I have two options. Option A:  More floor area, more interior deck area at the water line.   So, do I make the depth of the bilge more shallow, and maybe put a fine fin keel on it, and maybe puff out the beam and lengthen the water line?   Now I have a boat mainly sitting on top of the water, with a lot of interior volume because it has a large water footprint.   The plunge restoring force is sharp, like hitting a wall.  If I lift the boat from the water, the shallow bilges mean the volume of water displaced by the boat under water drops very rapidly over the course of maybe a foot.   Going the other way, pushing the boat down into the water, I am displacing the previous footprint of water which is wide and flat -- that is a lot of force.   With straight sides, the force increases in direct proportion to the depth I push the boat down, until water washes the deck, then the force is constant from that point.   At its neutral position, the boat is like a ball bearing resting on stiff rubber, lift it just a little, the force nearly disappears.   Press it down the force is large and grows constantly.   Name a vehicle suspension system that is like that and comfortable.   It is like a perhaps a giant dump truck with hard springs.   On a bumpy road, it pounds.  The chine near the water line is the cause.   The sharper the chine, up to the limit of 90 degrees, the stronger the pounding.    If one has a multi-chine boat or a shear-bent banana chine boat, the total force diagram will be more gradual as in the transition as more or less of the chine is in the water.   For a real boat, it is not as sharp as a hammer blow.   I have however seen production boats (no names) where there is a chine between the freeboard and the bilge that is near the water line and close to level to the water line all the way from front to back.   Planing racing boats are like this.   I imagine when they are not moving fast, pounding and planing along the tops of the waves, they are standing still pounding at a lower frequency with every heave of the waves.   or Option B: Slope out the sides and the end of the boat to make the topside deck bigger, and add volume, but keep the water line dimensions close to the same. Lets keep the deep bilge of our old style boat, that maybe goes down into a keel in one body (as opposed to a fin stuck onto a round-bottomed body) and keep the water line and the beam water line and ask myself: How much more weight I am really adding if I make the deck a little longer and have it slope down to the water line? Lets look at adding some deck on either side in the beam direction b.    This consider incrementing the width of the deck by of b = sqrt (SS^2 + F^2) on each side -- where SS is the side slope length from the water to the deck, and F is the freeboard, the perpendicular distance from the water to the deck.  The added length of material needed to make the sides esw = SS - F = sqrt(b^2 + F^2) - F .   Play with the math, until one makes a dish that flairs out a lot above the water line, esw is small.   Now, b will interfere with roll stability, so, we want to keep it smaller so, in all cases esw is small.   So the cost is 2*(b + esw)*LWL + 2 vertical triangles to keep the hull closed at the front and back of 2*(1/2*2*b*F).  But b is small, so esw is really small, so, we seem to have gained both deck and volume for mostly just the cost of deck.   That seems like a really fair trade to me.    Now lets consider adding deck length, d , that is, overhangs at either end.     The extra deck is length at one end is d = sqrt(S^2 - F^2) -- where S is the slope length from the water to the deck at the bow or stern (consider a double-ender for now) and F is the freeboard, the vertical distance from the water to the deck.   The extra length of material to make the prow of the boat slope up to the deck esl =  S - F = sqrt(d^2 + F^2) - F.   Play with the math, esl is very small until one gets to some large overhangs, which we might consider having.   So lets put the boat back together.   The total increase in area of the deck is about 1) 2*d*WWL + 2*b*LWL + 2*d*b where b/WWL is small compared to d/LWL.   The cost was about: 2) 2*d*WWL + 2*b*LWL + 2*d*b + 2*esw*LWL + 2*sqrt(d^2+b^2)* (F + esw) But esw is really small so, the cost is pretty close to: 3) 2*d*WWL + 2*b*LWL + 2*d*b + 2*sqrt(d^2+b^2) * F In summary, we have taken the underwater part of the boat and deck in the beam direction to slope the sides of the boat out in the beam direction and added deck in the fore-aft direction to create overhangs.  The cost minus the deck gained leaves: 4) 2*sqrt(d^s+b^2) * F.   So lets stick in some numbers, which coincidentally is my boat.   WWL is 8 feet.   LWL is 28 feet.... humm, neither of these figure into the extra cost -- not in a large way, no, not after allocating the part of the cost to gaining deck space.   So lets say F is 5 feet b is 1 foot and d is 6 feet of overhang at each end.   The extra deck gained is about (from 1): 2*6*8 + 2*1*28 + 2*1*6 = 138 square feet.   The surplus cost is about (from 4): 2*sqrt(6^2+1^2) * 5 = 60 square feet  --- about 43% extra in material beyond the payoff in just deck area.    But now I have gained a volume of about: 5) b*LWL + d*WWL + 2*1/3 d*2*b*F =    116 cubic feet over the vertical-sided boat, and all of that is lockers, and room to push bunks out of the passage ways.   That is 116 lockers about the size of a milk crate.  Imaging lining up 116 milk crates on a dock.  Take the first 5 make them fuel tank, the next 8 make them water tank, take 8 and made them a propane locker....  Sure you can fill them all very fast, no problem, but that is not the point.   Think how more air space you have in the cabin not taken up by lockers intruding into the standing floor area -- air space has no weight and that is what your overhangs are buying you.   Not to mention the added deck space, enough to seat 8 people, for dinner.   That is a lot of extra out-of-the-way stowage.... all for an additional penalty of 60 square feet more hull material, after discounting the costs one-for-one for valuable added deck space.  What the heck, how is that possible?  Because the up the slope sides of the boat only get bigger by a factor of SS - F or esw = sqrt(b^2 + F^2) - F -- geometry is your friend here.  On a 28 foot LWL boat, one more inch (esw) of hull sides slope length on 5 feet of freeboard gives you 11 more inches of deck on each side (b) for a total of 51.33 square feet more deck (that pays for itself one-for-one as added topside deck space is gold), and 25.6 more milk crates of storage for the surtax of 1"x28'x2 = 4.6 more square feet of steel on the sides.    It is crazy how the non-linearity really pays off to have some side and fore and aft overhang over none at all.    The equivalent of the mass of a little more than one 5x10 sheet of hull steel in the sides, or about two more sheets of plywood in fibreglass or wood in exchange for 116 milk crates of stowage inside, in addition to the gain and cost of the added deck space -- that is the surtax to turn a 28 footer LWL into a 40 footer LOA.   What fool would not take that bargain ?    Naturally the real $ building cost and the real weight cost to changing the location of the water line is the area of added deck PLUS this surtax of 60 square feet to turn a 28 foot LWL/ 28 foot LOA into a 28 foot LWL / 40 foot LOA.   I am just assuming that one is happy to pay the direct cost for each square foot of deck as the gain is obvious and useful. Overhangs are therefore a flipping bargain over having a vertical sided boat rising from the waterline !   Now lets think about lifting it out of the water and plunging it into the water.   There is no big flat bottom -- the hull narrows smoothly in both dimensions to the keel.  As I lift it out, the force drops parabolically to almost nothing over about 3 feet of rise.   If I plunge it into the water, the force rises, again parabolically for about 5 feet, giving more incremental resistance for each increment I push it down.   Because the tangent across the water line is contiguous, because there is no chine near the water line, the curve between rising and plunging is completely contiguous, and I get a softer effective suspension with a travel of probably 4 feet in the majority of cases -- plunging or rising no more than 2 feet from the nominal water line.   There is no pounding or impact.   Can you think of a vehicle that has such a suspension?  A silly big Monster truck maybe with long-travel springs?   Which truck would you prefer running over a chop the size of cars?  The truck with hard suspension, or the one with more travel ? So in summary, take the part of the boat under the water, and put vertical sides, a deck and a rig on the boat -- the displacement is just the total cargo times a factor.    Choose a LWL, WWL, and draft to float that.   Then imagine adding overhangs and side deck and it is a bargain, and one gets a softer ride as a bonus, plus all the other stability reasons that overhangs are good.   That is the right way to look at overhangs -- an addition that provides how much added deck space, and how much added volume, at what cost of weight of hull material.   It is backwards to think of overhangs as a reduction of LWL from some arbitrarily chosen LOA.     The marina wants you to think backwards.   The people who make flat bottom boats with chines near the water line and stick a fin keel on them want you to think backwards.   The physics does not.   Working up from the water line really had nothing to do with racing, it was simply the proper way to think about boats.   Thinking down from the deck is backwards. That is why old boats were always had dimensions in their names that were the LWL not the LOA.   The New York 30, the New York 35, the Altair 28 ....    That is what is important, not LOA.    The amount that LOA is larger than LWL is a gift, a bonus, a gain.      Look of overhangs like a present that keeps on giving a minimal surplus cost. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for     All other things equal, for a given length of boat, it has been proven again and again that the longer length of waterline, the faster the top speed of the boat.  The exception is in very light winds where wave action means little and the shorter length waterline boat may have less surface area. The racing rules have screwed up many good boat designs over the years as designers tried to get around the rules.     I think that a lot of the long ended boats were made specifically to get over the penalties and meant little to speed or comfort.   On some of the extreme designs of the late 1800s or early 1900s, the bow overhangs were so long and so slender, they are almost part of the bowsprit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene_Herreshoff#/media/File:NY_30.jpg I think these designs were so narrow and deep that they started penalizing ballast in an effort to get stronger, wider and more wholesome boats.  There have been many attempts to get better boats over the years but in each case, the racing seems to drive it.  Boats eventually became quite shallow and lightly ballasted.  It became so extreme that the rule died out in favor of others.  http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/design-1054-finisterre.html http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_services/articles/ratingrules.php Good Old Boat - No feasr mast stepping article www.goodoldboat.com Rating rules shaped our boats. By Ted Brewer. Article taken from Good Old Boat magazine: Volume 3, Number 3, May/June 2000. Universal Rule… International Offshore ... The old designers, when not designing to a rule, almost always went for a long waterline.  Ticonderoga is a great example.  She was very fast and even though she had a clipper bow, her bow was fairly fine and didn't slam too hard into the waves.  She broke many records that held for many years.  What a beaut..... http://classicyachtinfo.com/yachts/ticonderoga/ Ticonderoga - Classic Yacht Info classicyachtinfo.com A legendary classic sailboat designed by L. Francis Herreshoff for the intrepid yachtsman Harry Noyes, the 72-foot, clipper-bowed ketch was originally named Tioga II ... If I was designing a cruising boat from scratch and wanted the best all round design, I would go for the most vertical stem I could where the anchor didn't bang against the bow while you retrieve it.  The transom would just kiss the water.  Funny enough, Brent's designs are much like this.....a 32 foot waterline on a 36 foot boat is quite long.   Compare his 36 to a Crealock 37 or Cape Dory 36 which are similar proportions but  have waterlines about 5 feet shorter.   If funds were unlimited, I would get something like this :). http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn064/dsn064.html RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - R460 Steel Kit Cruising Yacht www.radford-yacht.com The R460 is another of the Radford 1000 Series steel cruising yachts - designed as a long distance, live aboard cruising yacht with the emphasis on safety ... http://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/kiwiroa.php About Kiwi Roa - PeterSmith.net.nz www.petersmith.net.nz About Peter’s yacht: 15 m aluminium cruising sailboat designed for all conditions and destinations; cumulation of decades of boat-building and world cruising ... | 34597|34562|2017-12-18 11:01:39|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for| Again thank you for the detailed response.  Yes, all of those are nice boats.   After looking at the design of a boat from the waterline down, and from the waterline up, looking at the profile diagram, and knowing what low costs there are to having more LOA and more deck with just a bit more overhang, in a way I am a little sad to see a more bluff bow, bluff stern boat -- bluff at the waterline -- what it could have been.   It could have been so much more, and prettier boat, a smoother boat, with some more overhang. In the end, my boat is a lot smaller with a lot less capacity for dunnage in it with only a 28 feet LWL, I just want more overhang on my small boat.   In a more bluff boat, you would want to compare it to a 34-35 foot LOA boat.  But I get a lot more deck length, my rig can stand taller and catch more of the light breeze without a bow sprit.    Naturally, I reef and furl the sails smaller when it blows more stiffly, never carrying more sail than a 34-35 foot bluff boat when it would be dangerous to, even though I have more overhangs to keep the bow and stern out of the water that might allow me to use my taller mast more aggressively, if I had a fill crew and were racing.   And it looks really long, low and beautiful doing it. So what is my truly ideal boat, if money were no object?  What would I recommend to others, build for others ? I so recognize the value of steel, and Brent's bottomless cleverness in construction, that I have toyed with the costs of making a giant forge, forms, and press to take two 1/4" steel plates and wham, drop forge two 35 foot LWL half-hulls in the hull form of the Bluenose, or New York 35 or that sailing schooner Esperanto and deliver them on a flat bed transport to do-it-yourselfers.  Not convinced that the more nimble shape of the old fishing schooners made for work performance is not the safest possible shape of hull, try the "Oskar Tybring" shape by Colin Archer (Marchaj, page 12): It could be remarked in defence of the Colin Archer type of boat, that they were deliberately built as rescue craft "to contend wind and sea in any weather ... and to be able to carry out safely any manoevre necessary ... rendering assistance to those in distress."   For instance 'the Oskar Tybring, designed and built in 1895 by Colin Archer, was credited with assisting 102 craft and saving 329 men's lives."   These vessels "when properly canvased and handled, have shown themselves capable of beating off a lee shore in the strongest blow.  One of their remarkable features was the ability to tow four or five smaller fishing boats off a lee shore under sail in bad weather."   Historical evidence appears to indicate that Colin Archer boats were in fact exceptionally seaworthy.  However, one may argue that this view does not disprove another view, namely that contemporary boats built to the IOR requirement (or fancy computer designs etc) may not be even better in this respect....  What follows in Marchaj is hundreds of pages of a little of this, and little of that, pluses and minuses, in different circumstances.   The fact is, Marchaj never clearly says any modern design has proven to be more unconditionally, unarguably more robustly seaworthy than the Oskar Tybring.   If one plugs the Oskar Tybring into a super computer and iterates on the design exposing it to every type of sea and wind, no doubt one would get something a little different, and maybe a tiny fraction better.   It seems though, of the hundreds of thousands of actual boats that were built and tried in 150 years, one cannot go far wrong in choosing the very best we know of (by one criteria), or a design that has not been unarguably surpassed in robust seaworthiness since.    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b5/78/27/b57827519b78b7bdc123200713c8f818--sailing-yachts--on.jpg Show the do it yourselfer how to trim the steel sheets and use a modified Brent method to pull and tack the halves together in their driveway, put on a deck etc, everything else the Brent way.   The sole of the keel would be a 12"x1" or 3/4" flat bar (a flat shoe on the sailing schooner backed up by poured ballast, on edge on the Colin Archer), so one does not care about scraping the bottom on coral trying that atoll entry channel.  For the schooner, the forging (and final boat) is relieved of the most highly curved part of the hull shape (and forging) in its most ideal form.   Origami is really clever, but with hot forging there are more shape options -- the downside it one boat per set of 4 half forms.    The other downside is, the forms would have to be hot-work ready, not like fibreglass forms.   $$$ in investment, but then wham-wham, wham-wham, that is another boat.   A boat a day would be no problem with a couple of guys to fire the furnace, work the equipment to pull the sheet into place and trigger the drop-forge.              The schooner Esperanto would look at lot like my boat, but bigger LOA, like 50-53 feet and have the capacity for a small family's dunnage.  They would love the trade winds, and slice through the chop of the North Atlantic at a steady, easy, displacement rate, and look stunning doing it.   Yes, they would take up a lot more space at the dock, but they are steel and more durable, suitable to be left moored further out on a big chain with the 60-80 foot metal fishing boats.   They would love rocky outports that see ice and weather.   They would have build-in brackets in the hull for beach legs made of 4 inch pipes for drying on the tide.   That would be a beautiful boat, the one I would like, and the one I would build for others.     Yes, everyone will think your more bluff boat is really spiffy and roomy and would never turn down a ride or a weekend, but no one would ever forget a ride in my boat.   Horribly expensive to make the forging plant, but, have I hooked you yet?   No?   I guess we will just stick to the cleverness of origami to get the steel, and toughness of the boat, and set those ideal shapes aside.  Or one could do frame and plate with a lot more work and get a similar but slightly different bluff-at-the-waterline shape.   Or one could buy an expensive production fibreglass boat and get a bluff-at-the-waterline shape.   Of the three, origami seems best.   The more-bluff-at-the-waterline shape is not all bad, it will get one all the way, anywhere one wants to go, to Antarctica if one wants, and it docks more cheaply, and has more space in it for a given docking fee.  And the ocean has the capacity for all types of waves, so, no matter what the shape of the small yacht, one will be wearing the crash helmet and ear plugs some of the time in any case as the boat tosses around.   But lets not pretend more-bluff-at-the-waterline with a fin is the shape the ocean and physics likes more. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for     All other things equal, for a given length of boat, it has been proven again and again that the longer length of waterline, the faster the top speed of the boat.  The exception is in very light winds where wave action means little and the shorter length waterline boat may have less surface area. The racing rules have screwed up many good boat designs over the years as designers tried to get around the rules.     I think that a lot of the long ended boats were made specifically to get over the penalties and meant little to speed or comfort.   On some of the extreme designs of the late 1800s or early 1900s, the bow overhangs were so long and so slender, they are almost part of the bowsprit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene_Herreshoff#/media/File:NY_30.jpg I think these designs were so narrow and deep that they started penalizing ballast in an effort to get stronger, wider and more wholesome boats.  There have been many attempts to get better boats over the years but in each case, the racing seems to drive it.  Boats eventually became quite shallow and lightly ballasted.  It became so extreme that the rule died out in favor of others.  http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/design-1054-finisterre.html Design 1054 - Finisterre sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.nz Here is the somewhat unlikely legend, Finisterre. Responding to the C.C.A. ( Cruising Club of America ) Rule at the time of her design, wh... http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_services/articles/ratingrules.php Good Old Boat - No feasr mast stepping article www.goodoldboat.com Rating rules shaped our boats. By Ted Brewer. Article taken from Good Old Boat magazine: Volume 3, Number 3, May/June 2000. Universal Rule… International Offshore ... The old designers, when not designing to a rule, almost always went for a long waterline.  Ticonderoga is a great example.  She was very fast and even though she had a clipper bow, her bow was fairly fine and didn't slam too hard into the waves.  She broke many records that held for many years.  What a beaut..... http://classicyachtinfo.com/yachts/ticonderoga/ Ticonderoga - Classic Yacht Info classicyachtinfo.com A legendary classic sailboat designed by L. Francis Herreshoff for the intrepid yachtsman Harry Noyes, the 72-foot, clipper-bowed ketch was originally named Tioga II ... If I was designing a cruising boat from scratch and wanted the best all round design, I would go for the most vertical stem I could where the anchor didn't bang against the bow while you retrieve it.  The transom would just kiss the water.  Funny enough, Brent's designs are much like this.....a 32 foot waterline on a 36 foot boat is quite long.   Compare his 36 to a Crealock 37 or Cape Dory 36 which are similar proportions but  have waterlines about 5 feet shorter.   If funds were unlimited, I would get something like this :). http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn064/dsn064.html RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - R460 Steel Kit Cruising Yacht www.radford-yacht.com The R460 is another of the Radford 1000 Series steel cruising yachts - designed as a long distance, live aboard cruising yacht with the emphasis on safety ... http://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/kiwiroa.php About Kiwi Roa - PeterSmith.net.nz www.petersmith.net.nz About Peter’s yacht: 15 m aluminium cruising sailboat designed for all conditions and destinations; cumulation of decades of boat-building and world cruising ... | 34598|34562|2017-12-18 12:09:03|Darren Bos|Re: Hull lines| One of the things that has not been said explicitly in this thread is that there is a difference on how fast boats sail on paper and how fast they sail on the water with short handed crew.  You will often hear folks talk about extra boat speed helping them avoid bad weather etc....  However, more often than not if you are sailing short handed, you are not sailing the boat anywhere near its potential.  A single-hander, or a couple on a boat aren't going to sail it to the same level as a full-blown racing crew.  When you have one or two crew you need the boats motion to be reasonable so that when you are off watch you can actually rest.  One example is that lots of couples reduce sail at night so if the wind pipes up they are not busy reefing in the middle of the night.  If you plan your boat to have a racing crew, or maybe even do charter work where you'll have a decent complement of crew for big passages, then you can likely squeeze more out of a modern design.  However, if you are short on crew, a more traditional boat that is more forgiving will keep you better rested and get you there almost as fast as a modern design whose performance is underutilized by a short handed crew. On 17-12-17 11:34 AM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I prefer more moderate designs....they are more real world and will take care of you and keep going when you are sick or don't have the sails trimmed quite right.  The difference in speed is all relative.   Look at an older round the world racer compared to a newer one.  The older design may not be as fast but it will sail with a windvane.  I would rather be on it. | 34599|34562|2017-12-18 12:31:10|Matt Malone|Re: Hull lines| Darren, I completely agree with you and Opusnz on this point.    The design has to be sailable passably well by one person alone and on a windvane with no one at the helm.   If one habitually takes it easy on both the crew and the boat, the destination is what, one or two days further away?   The crew lasts longer, the gear lasts longer.  People are happier.   It is one or two more days of a good thing.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull lines     One of the things that has not been said explicitly in this thread is that there is a difference on how fast boats sail on paper and how fast they sail on the water with short handed crew.  You will often hear folks talk about extra boat speed helping them avoid bad weather etc....  However, more often than not if you are sailing short handed, you are not sailing the boat anywhere near its potential.  A single-hander, or a couple on a boat aren't going to sail it to the same level as a full-blown racing crew.  When you have one or two crew you need the boats motion to be reasonable so that when you are off watch you can actually rest.  One example is that lots of couples reduce sail at night so if the wind pipes up they are not busy reefing in the middle of the night.  If you plan your boat to have a racing crew, or maybe even do charter work where you'll have a decent complement of crew for big passages, then you can likely squeeze more out of a modern design.  However, if you are short on crew, a more traditional boat that is more forgiving will keep you better rested and get you there almost as fast as a modern design whose performance is underutilized by a short handed crew. On 17-12-17 11:34 AM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I prefer more moderate designs....they are more real world and will take care of you and keep going when you are sick or don't have the sails trimmed quite right.  The difference in speed is all relative.   Look at an older round the world racer compared to a newer one.  The older design may not be as fast but it will sail with a windvane.  I would rather be on it. | 34600|34562|2017-12-18 12:37:57|prairiemaidca|Re: Hull lines|     Now we go round and round with the age old problem, how to accommodate the desire to go faster.  Bigger faster boat, now we need more bodies on board.  More bodies, more space required to house them and more space for the extra food/water etc that will be needed.  Then comes the added expense for the larger equipment, as we all know that expands exponentially as the boats get bigger.  As it's been stated before this is all well and good on a properly funded boat, and motivated sailors (Paid) to endure what ever to make that fast passage.  Don't know about the rest of you but I'm certainly not in that genre of sailors.  I made a very good and proven design (thank-you Brent) that was within my means and abilities.  For the most part I enjoyed the process of building it and take some pride in what it can do.  Would I like more space and a faster boat, who wouldn't but that is not my reality.  In the overall scheme of things is it necessary to have to enjoy some quality time on the ocean, not really.   I think if I get too caught up in the boat I loose sight of the reason I go out on the water.  Let's keep up the great discussions as that's how things improve and we improve.   Martin...  (Prairie Maid)| 34601|34558|2017-12-18 14:20:19|cuencopatagonia|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Gracias Brent Si consigo comprar el barco, compro el manual para terminarlo. Saludos| 34602|34562|2017-12-18 14:30:54|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines -- Overhangs What Are they really good for|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1478222747 #ygrps-yiv-1478222747ygrps-yiv-1083742314 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}If the distance between bow and stern wave are the same, then it makes no difference if the stern wave is kissing the hull or not. Hull speed is determined  by the distance between them, kissing an overhang ,or not.Overhangs do reduce transom drag in a stern wave. Overhangs also mean a shorter actual waterline length. Which offers the  greatest benefit,  more waterline or more overhang and less  transom drag? Given that the fastest racing boats these days all have more transom drag and not much overhang ,it seems waterline length  is more important. >Were not the original large overhangs on sailboats a way to reduce the >measured water line for racing only to have it restored when the vessel >was in a more healed over position? This is partially true, however it is mistaken belief to think that overhangs serve no other useful purpose.   First, overhangs serve no useful purpose in a modern racing boat that is designed to operate exclusively in planing, in excess of the hull speed one would calculate from the LWL.   If one has such a cruiser, and a canting keel to get it back upright when it flips, then you do not need overhangs, ever.  See the video recently posted to this thread that shows a Hugo Boss racer near the Kerguelen seeming to experience less pitch angle motion in the same sea as a navy boat that is far larger.    If however, your boat travels at displacement speeds most of the time, then read on.   Yes, overhangs have that effect of increasing LWL when heeled.  Particularly forward overhangs were accentuated for that purpose when sailing class rules favoured it, but, both aft and foreward overhangs existed long before sailing class rules penalized flat-water, no heel length of water line and encouraged overhangs.  Overhangs were favoured in work boats where simple performance and reliability was the criterion.   Proper clipper ship passenger transports of the 1800s were not designed to race rules, but designed for performance in waves.  That is where a proper clipper-bow came from, however a modern clipper bow included for aesthetics and everything we see pictures of now, is not necessarily a proper clipper bow and may have a net detrimental effect on performance.   I am struggling to find photographs that pre-date racing rules, or of vessels built before any racing rules, as photography of things that were moving was really hard before say 1910.   Here is a picture of a harbour in 1880 -- note the clipper bows had a vertical entry into the water that curved forward into an overhang.   | 34603|34562|2017-12-18 15:49:44|opuspaul|Re: Hull lines|Good points.   I have always done relatively fast passage times and I sometimes think it has as much to do with the balance of the boat and the steering under windvane and autopilot as outright boat speed.  I can trim up the sails and the windvane will keep the boat on a rail with the tell-tales hardly flickering.  Keeping everything in trim takes very little effort.  Contrast this with a guy on a boat I met in Samoa.  He was absolutely exhausted and in tears on arrival.   He couldn't get his boat to steer downwind with it constantly yawing 20 degrees or more either way.  There is no doubt that he covered a much larger distance to get across the ocean.I crewed on a boat once from Malaysia to India.  The owners of the boat liked to hand steer at night to the stars.  For some reason, they thought they could steer better than the autopilot could to a compass course.    When I showed them how many extra miles they did every night with the gps track, they were shocked.  The track was all over the place.   At times, they were almost 30 degrees off course with the sails drawing poorly.   Under power, you just end up eating up more fuel. | 34604|34558|2017-12-18 17:37:35|jalborey|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Juan, Brent's book contains a wealth of information on of metal boat construction, and then some in many aspects of boating in general. It could spare you a lot of money, time and hassles of any sort even if you don´t buy now the BS 26 in Puerto Madryn.  I had the pleasure of being asssociated with the publication of its Spanish edition years ago, but I haven´t the least monetary interest in it. Greetings,Jesús| 34605|34605|2017-12-21 12:53:03|prairiemaidca|Boat insurance/ the survey|     Just wondering how many countries require boat insurance around the world to sail in their waters and how many marinas require it as well.  It seems that most Canadian marinas want proof of insurance to get a slip..  And of course that brings up the rip off of the boat survey, and what it involves and it's validity other than a person making money off the system.  What are others experiences around the world with this practice? Martin.. (Prairie Maid) | 34606|34605|2017-12-21 14:48:24|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| An excellent question I would like to hear the answer to Martin.  Particularly those who have done customs clearance in foreign countries -- have you ever been asked for proof of insurance before even entering a marina, just entering the country? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 12:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey          Just wondering how many countries require boat insurance around the world to sail in their waters and how many marinas require it as well.  It seems that most Canadian marinas want proof of insurance to get a slip. .  And of course that brings up the rip off of the boat survey, and what it involves and it's validity other than a person making money off the system.  What are others experiences around the world with this practice?  Martin.. (Prairie Maid)  | 34607|34605|2017-12-21 20:09:37|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|I haven't encountered it , but I don't tie up in Marinas.I hear Mexico requires it only if you tie up in marinas there.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :     Just wondering how many countries require boat insurance around the world to sail in their waters and how many marinas require it as well.  It seems that most Canadian marinas want proof of insurance to get a slip..  And of course that brings up the rip off of the boat survey, and what it involves and it's validity other than a person making money off the system.  What are others experiences around the world with this practice? Martin.. (Prairie Maid) | 34608|34605|2017-12-21 22:34:16|Brian Stannard|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Pretty common in Europe as far as I know. On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 5:09 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I haven't encountered it , but I don't tie up in Marinas.I hear Mexico requires it only if you tie up in marinas there.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :     Just wondering how many countries require boat insurance around the world to sail in their waters and how many marinas require it as well.  It seems that most Canadian marinas want proof of insurance to get a slip..  And of course that brings up the rip off of the boat survey, and what it involves and it's validity other than a person making money off the system.  What are others experiences around the world with this practice? Martin.. (Prairie Maid)  -- CheersBrian | 34609|34605|2017-12-22 03:17:31|Aethiopicus|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|My favorite was last year, when some friends of mine sold their wooden boat. After the Comox Harbour Authority wouldn't let them tie up at the marina and they had to anchor out while working on bunch of wooden fish boats in the same marina, as they were uninsured and no one would insure it (being a 1927 wooden boat). A few weeks later they sold their boat, the new owner had to get it insured and so had it "surveyed". This guy Ted Banister, nice guy but clearly no idea about wooden boats did the survey, and after looking over the boat, clueless obviously, asked my friend to write a detailed list of all the things done to the boat for the insurance underwriters - Basically they wanted my friend to do his own survey on his past boat that he had re-built from ground up after they had refused to give them insurance on the boat previously. He said fuck that and the new owner had to come hat in hand and plead for their cooperation to satisfy the underwritters, cause no one had any idea what they were doing. I don't even know who or how much money exchanged hands for this survey, but I can guess someone got hosed.| 34610|34605|2017-12-22 10:43:58|prairiemaidca|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|My experience with the survey was sad as well.  First off the insurance co. called me to say it needed to be surveyed.  I said why?  They said was supposed to be done before it was first launched.  I pointed out to them that they have already renewed the policy twice without mention of this detail.  "Long Pause followed by I'm not sure how that happened"  So the boat gets a survey.  The errors in the report were ridiculous.  - I pointed out at time of survey all rails etc. are polished 316 Pipe,  the survey says tubing- the anchor rode is 5/8, the survey says 1/2- I need a fire port,  I ask every sail boat owner I can and not many even know what it is let alone have one- I used the white teflon tape out at my propane bottles instead of the yellow- I used regular fuel line in the engine box instead of the higher SAE standard for high heat- And the best of all;  the survey indicates a dry stack exhaust which is correct,  The recommendations of the survey is for me to have a "water" monitor at each helm station, TO what?? monitor the water in a dry exhaust???    What a JOKE, expensive but a joke.  I sent a detailed letter to the insurance co. telling them to make the proper entires in the report.  That was my survey experience.    I can definitely see the advantage of liability insurance these days, as it could easily ruin your life if you damage one the the expensive tupperware boats and got sued for it.  Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 34611|34562|2017-12-22 11:52:54|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Does anybody know how can I get in touch with Greg Janes to see what is he building in Comox?2017-12-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34612|34605|2017-12-22 17:01:46|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I only insured a boat once my first boat while building her.When I launched her ,I asked about more insurance. The broker came back with a policy which stated insurance against lightning ( we only  get a lightning storm every  ten years here) fire ( I had no stove or fire causing implement of any kind aboard at the time) and  theft of entire vessel (No rig, only an outboard in a well at the time).  That was it . I told them to shove it where the  sun don't shineAfter losing that boat in Fiji years later, it cost less to replace  it than  I would  have spent on insurance.I only once made a claim for health insurance, after falling off a boat and breaking some bones. The insurance company called "Travel Underwriters Worldwide Mediclaim," sold by credit unions,refused to pay because I didn't have a  credit  card for them to put my expenses on, and force me to go to court for a  settlement. I  threatened  to sue the hospital for a screwup, and they backed off.The insurance outfit has changed names several times since then, to escape their track record and reputation. Last I heard ,it was called "To Go".My brother had similar problems with them. I don't trust any insurance company to pay up if I make a claim.Yes, I expect boat surveyors to make some incredibly stupid  assumptions. A friend had to do a lot of hunting to find an insurance company which would insure her boat, because it had a wood stove board ,the safest fuel choice for any heat source on a boat, other than electric.My experience with the survey was sad as well.  First off the insurance co. called me to say it needed to be surveyed.  I said why?  They said was supposed to be done before it was first launched.  I pointed out to them that they have already renewed the policy twice without mention of this detail.  "Long Pause followed by I'm not sure how that happened"  So the boat gets a survey.  The errors in the report were ridiculous.  - I pointed out at time of survey all rails etc. are polished 316 Pipe,  the survey says tubing- the anchor rode is 5/8, the survey says 1/2- I need a fire port,  I ask every sail boat owner I can and not many even know what it is let alone have one- I used the white teflon tape out at my propane bottles instead of the yellow- I used regular fuel line in the engine box instead of the higher SAE standard for high heat- And the best of all;  the survey indicates a dry stack exhaust which is correct,  The recommendations of the survey is for me to have a "water" monitor at each helm station, TO what?? monitor the water in a dry exhaust???    What a JOKE, expensive but a joke.  I sent a detailed letter to the insurance co. telling them to make the proper entires in the report.  That was my survey experience.    I can definitely see the advantage of liability insurance these days, as it could easily ruin your life if you damage one the the expensive tupperware boats and got sued for it.  Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 34613|34562|2017-12-22 17:03:09|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines|I'll ask around, as I am in Comox until the 28th of December.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know how can I get in touch with Greg Janes to see what is he building in Comox?2017-12-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising?| 34614|34605|2017-12-22 17:09:12|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Yes ,I have heard of money being passed under the table  for a good survey around here,  to overlook some things. A Dutch surveyor named De Groot, on my last boat, said 5/16tth rigging and 5/8th turnbuckles are not strong enough for a   29 footer. I later found he rates boats by their "snob appeal," rather than how well put together they are.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My favorite was last year, when some friends of mine sold their wooden boat. After the Comox Harbour Authority wouldn't let them tie up at the marina and they had to anchor out while working on bunch of wooden fish boats in the same marina, as they were uninsured and no one would insure it (being a 1927 wooden boat). A few weeks later they sold their boat, the new owner had to get it insured and so had it "surveyed". This guy Ted Banister, nice guy but clearly no idea about wooden boats did the survey, and after looking over the boat, clueless obviously, asked my friend to write a detailed list of all the things done to the boat for the insurance underwriters - Basically they wanted my friend to do his own survey on his past boat that he had re-built from ground up after they had refused to give them insurance on the boat previously. He said fuck that and the new owner had to come hat in hand and plead for their cooperation to satisfy the underwritters, cause no one had any idea what they were doing. I don't even know who or how much money exchanged hands for this survey, but I can guess someone got hosed.| 34615|34605|2017-12-22 17:54:17|opuspaul|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|I haven't had general boat insurance since I left Canada in 1997.   I did have to buy liability insurance to go into a  marina and boatyard in NZ.   The liability insurance was relatively cheap.   Normally you have to get a electrical certificate of fitness to be allowed to plug into the dock.  This is the same for camper vans in holiday parks.I don't miss having insurance.   The money I would have spent over the years would have really added up.  When I left Canada, I had very little  money and any funds I had were better spent on safety gear, lines or anchors.   With insurance, your premiums are paying for others stupid mistakes.  When I lived on my boat in Canada, my neighbor got new sails when he blew them out after refusing to reef in a squall and got a new engine when he forgot to add oil after maintenance.  I couldn't believe he got away with it.  No wonder my rates kept going up.Even if I wanted or could afford insurance when cruising, it would have been impossible.  The insurance companies at the time required you to have 3 people on board (autopilots didn't count) and they did not allow you to sail anywhere in cyclone season.  I heard of people who got hammered sailing to NZ from Fiji when they would have been better off staying where they were.  I know of one boat lost on a reef on the way to Fiji.  Rather than save the boat, the owner spent all his time talking to the insurance company trying to get approval to get a tow.  By the time the insurance company made the decision, it was too late.| 34616|34605|2017-12-22 17:58:17|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| What about 3rd party liability insurance?  It would seem a steel boat could cause some real damage to a crap fibreglass boat. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 22, 17:54 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I haven't had general boat insurance since I left Canada in 1997.   I did have to buy liability insurance to go into a  marina and boatyard in NZ.   The liability insurance was relatively cheap.   Normally you have to get a electrical certificate of fitness to be allowed to plug into the dock.  This is the same for camper vans in holiday parks. I don't miss having insurance.   The money I would have spent over the years would have really added up.  When I left Canada, I had very little  money and any funds I had were better spent on safety gear, lines or anchors.   With insurance, your premiums are paying for others stupid mistakes.  When I lived on my boat in Canada, my neighbor got new sails when he blew them out after refusing to reef in a squall and got a new engine when he forgot to add oil after maintenance.  I couldn't believe he got away with it.  No wonder my rates kept going up. Even if I wanted or could afford insurance when cruising, it would have been impossible.  The insurance companies at the time required you to have 3 people on board (autopilots didn't count) and they did not allow you to sail anywhere in cyclone season.  I heard of people who got hammered sailing to NZ from Fiji when they would have been better off staying where they were.  I know of one boat lost on a reef on the way to Fiji.  Rather than save the boat, the owner spent all his time talking to the insurance company trying to get approval to get a tow.  By the time the insurance company made the decision, it was too late. | 34617|34605|2017-12-22 18:21:16|opuspaul|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|I should probably look into it.  When I was cruising offshore, most people had the attitude of  sh#t happens and cut each other a lot of slack.   It seems to me that the unreasonable morons are growing in number and outnumbering the real world sailors.  They are also the ones who spend far too much money on high gloss paint jobs.  Last summer, I heard of a boat that dragged anchor into another boat and then tried to claim against the others insurance.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : What about 3rd party liability insurance?  It would seem a steel boat could cause some real damage to a crap fibreglass boat. Matt | 34618|34605|2017-12-23 14:27:06|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| >It seems to me that the unreasonable morons are growing in number and outnumbering the real world sailors. There are entire marinas full of them I am certain.   Also, there is a long history of a little extra claim on insurance claims.  That is the biggest reason to get 3rd party insurance.   When the "guilty" party is a transient cruiser, I would not bet against the transient cruiser's insurance company having to deal with a lot of little extras if their boat should come free one night and scratch a few others.    I would not want to be without 3rd party insurance anywhere within 200 yards of other boats.   I would not want to be uninsured and have all the locals lining up to me for a handout.  Without insurance I am afraid it might occur to someone that my boat should be seized until I made good to everyone.   Insurance companies might be hard to deal with as a policy holder, but try getting money out of them if one is a third party making up BS.   Though it may be a real hassle, in the end, you are better off with a policy number.   My plan would be to just smile, and give the policy number to everyone who asks.   I would contact my insurance company, make my statement, provide a list of real damages and as many photographs as possible -- 300 is not too many, 1,000 is not too many.  Anyone who takes the policy number, I take a photo of their boat from a dozen angles, minimum.  Take close photos, far photos.   I would maintain the same smile and take photos of BS that I had nothing to do with (do not dispute it on the dock), just take a photo and tell the insurance company later. Very important:  Take pictures of the other side with "no damage" -- that is the biggest gap through which crap will come up.    Get it all to the insurance company with notes.     Be the detailed, insurance works a lot better that way. Depending on the country, it may be time to make a passage, before the insurance company starts saying "no" to all the BS claims.   The ones with real damage will get paid, eventually.   One would not be skipping out on anything, one paid in advance through premiums.   And every day that I do not scratch someone else's boat, is a day knowing it is all taken care of, should it ever happen.   As for insuring a steel boat itself, why bother?   Keep it from sinking for silly reasons, like a broken fitting on a through-hull, keep it from catching fire, carry paint and spares, and be prepared to make do.   That seems a lot cheaper in the long run.  One has paid most of their insurance premium already by investing in a steel boat.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     I should probably look into it.  When I was cruising offshore, most people had the attitude of  sh#t happens and cut each other a lot of slack.   It seems to me that the unreasonable morons are growing in number and outnumbering the real world sailors.  They are also the ones who spend far too much money on high gloss paint jobs.  Last summer, I heard of a boat that dragged anchor into another boat and then tried to claim against the others insurance.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : What about 3rd party liability insurance?  It would seem a steel boat could cause some real damage to a crap fibreglass boat. Matt | 34619|34562|2017-12-24 05:41:11|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Thank you Brent, even an e-mail address would be fine.2017-12-22 23:03 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   I'll ask around, as I am in Comox until the 28th of December.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know how can I get in touch with Greg Janes to see what is he building in Comox?2017-12-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34620|34562|2017-12-26 17:01:43|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I see only one Greg Janes in the Comox phone book , at Williams Beach road. Don't have it here, but will post it tomorrow.Jean Mark has an aluminium origami boat in the 50 ft range, as does Harvey.You could leave  a message for him at Shearwater Marine in Shearwater. I built Mark  and Jean, the CEO and first  lady of Shearwater marine a 36  , so they will know Jean Mark well.He can probably help  you connect with Harvey, who hangs around Tofino BC.Theirs are well l tested boats, cruising Hecate strait in winter, and one run from BC to Christmas Island and back again to Hecate Strait in November. Thank you Brent, even an e-mail address would be fine.2017-12-22 23:03 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  I'll ask around, as I am in Comox until the 28th of December.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know how can I get in touch with Greg Janes to see what is he building in Comox?2017-12-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising?| 34621|34605|2017-12-26 17:10:00|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|The  problem here in Canada is US based  companies,etc, assuming we are the same as yanks, when it comes to ligitigiousness.Laws here discourage frivilous law suits in a big way, making hem fare more rare here. The complainant, if he loses, gets to pay all his victims legal bills,and court costs, making such lawsuits extremely rare here , compared to  in the US.That has given us a completely different culture, when it comes to law suits.| 34622|34605|2017-12-26 18:23:20|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| >The complainant, if he loses, gets to pay all his victims legal >bills,and court costs, making such lawsuits extremely rare >here , compared to  in the US. Sometimes, not all the time is the complainant required to pay in Canada, but it is a danger that weighs on the mind of complainants and lawyers when they choose what cases to push to trial, instead of settling. The big difference is juries in Canada tend not to make punishingly high judgments against the guilty party, making the complainant well incentivized to push any case to trial for a huge win-fall.   Also, for a long time, lawyers in Canada were prohibited from working on contingency, that is, 30% of the winnings for instance, so, there was no personal incentive for the lawyer to push for the big win and invest firm money like gambling.   Lawyers in Ontario at least are now allowed to work on contingency.   There are a lot of settlements in Canada before the trial.   Settlements offer certainty.  As far as insurance, I am not concerned about the $5M claim, I am concerned about the 4 claims for $20,000 when my boat scratches a few new ones in a few minutes.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 5:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     The  problem here in Canada is US based  companies,etc, assuming we are the same as yanks, when it comes to ligitigiousness.Laws here discourage frivilous law suits in a big way, making hem fare more rare here. The complainant, if he loses, gets to pay all his victims legal bills,and court costs, making such lawsuits extremely rare here , compared to  in the US. That has given us a completely different culture, when it comes to law suits. | 34623|34562|2017-12-27 10:52:45|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Thank you very much Brent. I made a research on internet, the Shearwater Marine you mean is the one in Campbell Island or the one in Richmond?2017-12-26 23:01 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I see only one Greg Janes in the Comox phone book , at Williams Beach road. Don't have it here, but will post it tomorrow.Jean Mark has an aluminium origami boat in the 50 ft range, as does Harvey.You could leave  a message for him at Shearwater Marine in Shearwater. I built Mark  and Jean, the CEO and first  lady of Shearwater marine a 36  , so they will know Jean Mark well.He can probably help  you connect with Harvey, who hangs around Tofino BC.Theirs are well l tested boats, cruising Hecate strait in winter, and one run from BC to Christmas Island and back again to Hecate Strait in November. Thank you Brent, even an e-mail address would be fine.2017-12-22 23:03 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  I'll ask around, as I am in Comox until the 28th of December.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Does anybody know how can I get in touch with Greg Janes to see what is he building in Comox?2017-12-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :No problem whatsoever ,stucturally. Greg Janes is building one like that in aluminium in Comox.Wide sterns and sharp bows usually mean abysmally poor  directional stability, which double rudders tend to help control ,but they still have no inherent directional stability,and need constant course corrections, as they continually fight to wander.Having singlehanded a boat with such abysmally poor directional stability(a   Kinny designed Pipe dream) from BC to New Zealand, I would much prefer to give up a tiny bit of speed for more directional stability. Moving the rudder 6 feet further aft in New Zealand gave me far more control ,but the fight was still on against her tendency to wander, just more ability to control it. I prefer a boat which controls herself, with  good hull balance.Nowdays most of big production yachts are made with very large flat stern, double wheels, double rudders. Mostly flat underneath.I've never tryed to sail on that kind of yachts but it seems they are very confortable (inside and outside) and fast.Can you imagine an origami 35' alluminium one to have the right strenght? Would it be suitable for long distance cruising? | 34624|34562|2017-12-27 20:36:03|brentswain38|Re: Hull lines|Campbell Island, near  Bella BellaThe number in the phone book for Greg Janes is 250-337-5455Good luck Brent| 34625|34625|2017-12-28 14:59:43|brentswain38|Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations|Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too.$175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster?Ya sure!Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face.| 34626|34625|2017-12-28 17:29:06|mountain man|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations| It seems it happened before, probably a hoax Oh, Brent by the way did you read my post about stretching my boat? Martin On Dec 28, 2017, at 3:48 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too. $175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster? Ya sure! Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face. | 34627|34625|2017-12-28 18:24:56|Matt Malone|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations| Coincidentally, I did read sailing anarchy lately.   There was a thread, shit that Brent says.   This is a case that will only provide ammunition for the detractors.   First, as far as I can see, Sailing Anarchy is still on-line.   There is a very low likelihood anyone is going to jail.   More likely, there was some scam being run off the same computer by hackers, and it appears to be fixed already.   Potentially, it was simply an FBI mistake, they saw "anarchy" and jumped the gun.   Or perhaps "anarchy" attracted some real anarchists or jihadis in some subthread that escaped the moderator's attention, and the FBI sent them a notification and shut them down until the thread was deleted.   In any case, all the cruel, unfair, stupid and mistaken posts, and all the other ones, are again completely accessible.   Nothing Robert Perry has said, not matter how unfair, cruel, stupid, or mistaken, is going to get him in jail. Haters are going to hate.   Just let it go.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 2:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations     Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too. $175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster? Ya sure! Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face. | 34628|34625|2017-12-28 18:27:23|Matt Malone|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations| >convicted fraudster This is a very specific assertion.  Is it true?  Please provide the reference for the conviction.  If it is not true, then it is false, and well, that is more than just cruel, unfair.... etc.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 5:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations     It seems it happened before, probably a hoax Oh, Brent by the way did you read my post about stretching my boat? Martin On Dec 28, 2017, at 3:48 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too. $175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster? Ya sure! Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face. | 34629|34625|2017-12-28 19:00:25|opuspaul|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations|Your message sounds like a scam.   Sailing Anarchy is up and running. | 34630|34625|2017-12-28 19:05:44|opuspaul|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations|Good advice.   Trolls on forums are just that...trolls.  All they want to do is fight.   The truth mean nothing and just gets in the way.   If you don't feed them, they will eventually die.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2127827682 #ygrps-yiv-2127827682ygrps-yiv-1915188227 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}GHaters are going to hate.   Just let it go.   Matt| 34631|34625|2017-12-28 19:30:56|Brian Stannard|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations|BrentSailing Anarchy is up and running as usual.  On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:59 AM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too.$175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster?Ya sure!Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face. -- CheersBrian | 34632|34562|2017-12-29 10:29:12|Alex Bar|Re: Hull lines|Great Brent. Thanks a lot2017-12-28 2:36 GMT+01:00 brentswain38@... [origamiboats] :   Campbell Island, near  Bella BellaThe number in the phone book for Greg Janes is 250-337-5455Good luck Brent | 34633|34625|2017-12-29 18:56:50|brentswain38|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations|I  :Just did  a search under Sailing Anarchy and it showed up near the top of the list. No I didn't see your post on stretching the 36Which post, what date.It seems it happened before, probably a hoaxOh, Brent by the way did you read my post about stretching my boat?Martin On Dec 28, 2017, at 3:48 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:  Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too. $175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster? Ya sure! Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face. | 34634|34355|2017-12-29 23:43:52|mountain man|Fwd: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Hi Brent, This is the message I sent you; Begin forwarded message: From: "mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]" Date: December 16, 2017 at 11:06:15 PM GMT-5 To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Hi Brent, If I stretch my boat of 4 feet longer, from 37 feet to 41 feet long, do you think the 8 feet long bilge keels will still be long enough of should I make them a bit longer? Thanks, Martin On Oct 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   8 feet long on top. | 34635|34625|2017-12-29 23:58:54|mountain man|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations| Brent, It was a post of the 16 dec, under bilge keels in winter ice Martin On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:57 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I  :Just did  a search under Sailing Anarchy and it showed up near the top of the list. No I didn't see your post on stretching the 36 Which post, what date. It seems it happened before, probably a hoax Oh, Brent by the way did you read my post about stretching my boat? Martin On Dec 28, 2017, at 3:48 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Good news. I checked the attack site, " Sailing Anarchy", and got a message that the  site has been siezed by the FBI ,Homeland Security and DEA, for ongoing criminal investigations. Hopefully, the moderators, who made it nothing  more than a  Bob Perry suckathon, ( mandatory sucking , for all participants, or get banned and your posts deleted) , will be looking at serious jail time. Bob Perry could also be looking at serious jail time, for uttering  threats , counseling to commit assault, fraud , criminal harassment, etc. Maybe one for Smackdaddy too. $175 an hour, for advice form a convicted fraudster? Ya sure! Maybe they will be dense and arrogant  enough to try their bullying tactics inside the joint. The thought of that, and the consequences,brings a smile to  my face. | 34636|34355|2017-12-30 15:31:54|brentswain38|Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge keels in winter ice|I would  increase their length the same percentage as the increase in boat size.| 34637|34625|2017-12-30 15:38:19|brentswain38|Re: Sailing anarchy siezed for criminal investgations|MartinI checked all your Dec 16th posts and couldnt find it. What number was the post?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent,It was a post of the 16 dec, under bilge keels in winter iceMartin On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:57 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I  :Just did  a search under Sailing Anarchy and it showed up near the top of the list. No I didn't see your post on stretching the 36Which post, what date.It seems it happened before, probably a hoaxOh, Brent by the way did you read my post about stretching my boat?Martin | 34638|34355|2017-12-30 16:20:22|mountain man|Re: Bilge keels in winter ice| Ok , good,  Thank you On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:32 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I would  increase their length the same percentage as the increase in boat size. | 34639|34639|2018-01-01 10:26:56|prairiemaidca|Steel Sail boat U tube|Has anyone seen this video on U tube?  Comments please.  My initial thoughts were, with all the welds the hull is very rough looking and there don't appear to be any side decks at all.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Z4G5OwMq0Martin... (Prairie Maid)   Happy boat building and sailing in 2018 to All....| 34640|34640|2018-01-01 17:20:28|brentswain38|scrap yard rejuvenation?|I remember when we used to go into scrap yards with a long list, and get almost everything we needed. That was a long time ago,and lately, everything has  been getting shipped to  China immediately. That may be about to change, as China, as of today, has banned the import of recycling materials.I wonder if that includes stainless. That could mean finding all we need in scrapyards again ,until they catch on to how much such a crazy move will cost them. Its a huge industry there, and estimates of a 300% increase in the cost of raw materials have been made.Many manufacturing companies have been moving to Mexico for much faster delivery times, and lower wage and shipping costs.What goes up must come down, and China is no exception.The excuse was " We don't want to be the worlds garbage dump any more".Kinda like the low income cruiser letting snobbery rob him of the money needed to go anywhere in his boat (Bob Perry style! "A teak deck will sure impress your landlubber neighbours, while  snobbery free people  cruising, and you go to work to pay for it.)I heard a great scrapyard in Powell River shut down, and that another new scrapyard got the contract there for the pulp mill stainless.Maybe we wont take months to find a stainless stovepipe anymore.| 34641|34639|2018-01-01 17:24:33|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|Makes me wonder if he was one of the gullible suckers who believed the origami critics, who told him to forget about my methods, and go for frames,  and the advice of my jeering hecklers.Maybe he was one of them .The thought gives me a feeling  of "schadenfreude"!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Has anyone seen this video on U tube?  Comments please.  My initial thoughts were, with all the welds the hull is very rough looking and there don't appear to be any side decks at all.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Z4G5OwMq0Martin... (Prairie Maid)   Happy boat building and sailing in 2018 to All....| 34642|34558|2018-01-01 17:30:54|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Lo siento ,pero mis Espanol es muy limitado, y no puede esrcirbo mis libro en Espanol, sin la assistancia de Jesus""Un guia des Herejes, para Jesus ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Gracias Brent Si consigo comprar el barco, compro el manual para terminarlo. Saludos| 34643|34639|2018-01-01 18:04:45|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|I watched the series a few days ago.  I like his attitude but he would be 100% better off building to Brent's methods.  It is like watching a car crash.   >>>Has anyone seen this video on U tube?  Comments please.  My initial thoughts were, with all the welds the hull is very rough looking and there don't appear to be any side decks at all.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Z4G5OwMq0Martin... (Prairie Maid)   Happy boat building and sailing in 2018 to All....| 34644|34639|2018-01-01 21:19:57|jpronk1|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|I started watching but could not keep it up. I feel bad for him, I think with less effort he could have built a Brent Boat that didn’t look like it had been run through a demolition derby! To each there own? James Sent from my iPhone| 34645|34639|2018-01-01 23:51:26|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|He has a lot of relatively flat sections in the hull and deck.  I don't think he is building it nearly strong enough.   I really question the thin hull framing with the thin plate but the size of the deck beams are just crazy.  If they can be so easily bent by hand, they are not nearly strong enough to be at sea.  If it doesn't fold up or crack somewhere, my bet is it will end up looking like a zebra after a few years with dents all over.   He would have been farther ahead by now with a far superior product if he used Brent's methods.....even using his own design and patterns.| 34646|34639|2018-01-02 06:00:28|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| Frames, ribs, stringers are a way to use less weight of metal on large structures.   It is absolutely essential to control the cost of large ships, in addition to making them more constructible by workers -- same reason historical sailing ships used a lot of small sails.  It is like truss bridges instead of plate steel bridges -- some railway bridges over 2 and 4 lane roads are more plate-beams than trusses.   They have a prefabricated and dropped in place look to me.  For small boats, it makes much more sense to use thicker plate and less internal structure that serves the function of frames - like origami.   I have read in the detractors forums an admission that the BS26 probably meets scantling requirements.   Even for those who are logical and agree that on smaller boats thicker plate and no frames is ok, there will be disagreement about  at what size the transition will be, when frame-based stiffness is better over all.  It is more than just when less $ of steel are used, as Brent has demonstrated, it is about cut and fit complexity too. Yes his boat looks rough, and abused, and one could go on about the hull shape, feeling sorry for the builder, doubts about is safety without a close inspection,  but then this thread would bear a lot of resemblance to detractor threads  on other forums.   He could not have gotten his hull shape with the origami patterns that exist.  It is his boat, his way.  Certainly in THIS forum that should gain him some respect - words I read about Brent's boats in on of the fairer posts on the detractor forums. I note lately on detractor forums, Robert Perry is just posting photos of boats, I assume boats he designed.  It appears to let the readers contrast particular commercial built boats of his to particular owner-built BS design boats.   Based on those photos, I can see his boats being more appealing to more people, and that has to translate into resale value.  No doubt the BS owner/builders who took less aesthetic photos of their boats, while they were still in process might feel such reposting and implicit comparisons are unfair.  One is forced to ask, is this fair. If one wanted to make this owner feel bad on might begin posting more photos showing the  relative ease of origami hull construction. After tough reflection I have decided that I think this thread is mainly fair in that it raises valid issues for discussion (not conclusions).  If one is fair then one is forced to admit, apart from the cruelty and absolute statements that are just unfounded, there are some issues raised in origami detractor threads that are worthy of fair discussion. People conflate stiffness and strength, saying his boat does not look strong.  Flexible is not-stiff.   Weak is not-strong. They are different. Certainly a boat that flexes so.much that it fatigues owing to repeated loadings (like from waves) and cracks is said to have broken, so from an end analysis, it is "weak", though strictly, it was too flexible.  At the same time some flexibility greatly increases toughness vs impact.   If one defines "safe" as coming out of a collision dented but not leaking, his boat might suffer a larger impact and remain safe owing to flexibility.  Just because the components can be bent by hand is not proof the assembled structure lacks either stiffness or strength -- that is one of the flaws in thinking that disables some origami detractors. I admit, I share some uncertainty about this particular boat based on my impressions from the video.  For fair contrast, the video of a BS26 being dragged through a field by a truck left a different impression. "Uncertainty" is not the same as judging it too weak, unsafe or unseaworthy, which would be unfounded conclusions,  based just on pictures or video.   If the Brent detractor threads were more fair, authors would stick to expressing personal uncertainty.  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 11:51:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     He has a lot of relatively flat sections in the hull and deck.  I don't think he is building it nearly strong enough.   I really question the thin hull framing with the thin plate but the size of the deck beams are just crazy.  If they can be so easily bent by hand, they are not nearly strong enough to be at sea.  If it doesn't fold up or crack somewhere, my bet is it will end up looking like a zebra after a few years with dents all over.   He would have been farther ahead by now with a far superior product if he used Brent's methods.....even using his own design and patterns. | 34647|34639|2018-01-02 10:18:16|prairiemaidca|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|I think as a group we should always applaud those who give boat building a go no matter the out come and refrain from improper comments.  To do so puts us all in the same light as the others that make outrageous claims with no proof just to put someone else down.  If we constructively analyze what we see and back it up with our own reasons and let others do the same to our comments we should all gain insight and ideas as the posts flow on our sight.  It is always hard to understand when some like to continue in an attack like mode even when the opposite of their comments is out on the water and functioning in a very satisfactory manor.  With this fellows boat I too think the hull shape could be an issue when it comes to getting it to sail properly and as for it flexing that will all come to play if it ever ends up in a rough water situation for a few days or more.  A properly constructed BS 36 has no detectible flex.   Will be interesting to see if we get more video of this fellows creation once it's on the water. Martin...  (Prairie Maid) | 34648|34639|2018-01-02 14:37:52|Matt Malone|Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.     Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time. Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34649|34639|2018-01-02 17:08:30|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|If you think I attacked him, that wasn't my intention.  I  made a point of saying that I liked his attitude.  I do think he is misguided in his approach. Most of his comments on youtube are nothing but encouragment with only a few naysayers from (it sounds) like knowledgeable people.   I am not sure why we should encourage him.   If he spends a few years building a boat that never works and has zero resale value, encouraging him isn't doing him any favors.   Don't forget that it may not be just him that goes sailing on the boat.  I had a friend go missing along with 6 others on an unsound boat.  They have never found any wreckage or any bodies.  It was very hard on the families.  Maybe this makes me sensitive.  Cheers, Paul| 34650|34639|2018-01-02 18:27:30|prairiemaidca|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|No I certainly didn't think you were attacking anyone, sorry it sounded that way.  I was just making a general comment of how we should conduct ourselves here and not how many out there seem to behave.  I totally agree that he is misguided in his project and I hope that him or anyone else is not put in peril because of it.  Unfortunately we all do what we do and some chose to wade in and the consequences can sometimes be serious.  On the other hand many new and great things throughout time have been created or discovered in a very haphazard way.  I look at all the welding he had to do on that patchwork approach to a hull and then look back at how few actual pieces are in my 36ft hull and just shake my head.  Especially when you see the results.   My hull is far from anywhere near perfect but compared to the boat behind him in the video I feel like I have mirror perfect race ready creation.  Looks like it must have taken a lot of hours and welding and yet he still ended up with a very "interesting" hull.  I would love to sit down with him and chat about where and how he came to do what he did.  I've looked at quite a few BS boats and wondered the how and why of what some have done but I never judged their choice and until I launched and sailed my own, I always said at least they are in the water and sailing and accomplished their dream.  Martin...(Prairie Maid)| 34651|34639|2018-01-02 19:28:03|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| Hi Paul, I was not certain you had been unfair, I was just starting to see similarities in this thread to origami detractor threads.  Its hard to read the detractor threads and sort through what is fair, unfair, wrong, and just cruel.   It is hard not to post.   It is too easy to throw out everything said, but I think one should read them and see where there is a factor worth considering.   I would hope the builder of the boat might read our thread, and find nothing unfair, wrong or cruel, and while it may be tough to read, I would hope he sees things worth considering.   I do not really like his approach that he will just try it and see, particularly when it comes to structural questions.   Strictly speaking, when Brent made his first boat and voyage, there had to be some of the same element.  Just because it worked out and Brent was right that the method was sufficient, it is not a good model to follow:  a never-before tried specific design, and a never before tried specific technique, with a little-understood method.   The same recipe for someone else could have very unfortunate results.   Somehow it seems that Brent had to have started out with a far better appreciation of the limits of steel than this builder.   My specific problem with the structural questions is, virtually everything in loads on a boat hull go by something squared -- a quantity of something results in loads that are OK, a little more can result in much higher loads.   More wind, more wave height, more wave steepness leading to harder breaks, higher surface flow speeds.   I think it is everyone's experience that forces on a boat can apparently double simply by rounding a point and entering more exposed water and this is 10 steps short of his goal of world cruising.    Today was the first time I watched his first video on a large screen.   The part where he is standing in the open aft, and one can see the structure in cross-section, and he puts his hand near it, one gets a distinct impression that it is awfully thin and flat and the stiffeners are small maybe 1/4 x 1/2" flat bar.   I have to say, I am very uncomfortable.     The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.    If someone were to change his mind, convince him to give up this hull and start again before going to the time and expense of fitting the interior and systems, I think they would be doing him a great favour.   Alternately, he might be convinced that his interior had to be very structural, like wood frames added to the inside of a steel skin boat, but I think that would be the trying to save a steel hull by basically building a wood boat inside it.   All his interior volume would disappear in thick beams. Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements. Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?           Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 4:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     If you think I attacked him, that wasn't my intention.  I  made a point of saying that I liked his attitude.  I do think he is misguided in his approach. Most of his comments on youtube are nothing but encouragment with only a few naysayers from (it sounds) like knowledgeable people.   I am not sure why we should encourage him.   If he spends a few years building a boat that never works and has zero resale value, encouraging him isn't doing him any favors.   Don't forget that it may not be just him that goes sailing on the boat.  I had a friend go missing along with 6 others on an unsound boat.  They have never found any wreckage or any bodies.  It was very hard on the families.  Maybe this makes me sensitive.  Cheers, Paul | 34652|34640|2018-01-02 19:40:06|Larry Dale|Re: scrap yard rejuvenation?|Here in Southern Ontario there are 3 scrap steel yards in my small city and none of them will allow anyone in. The one had corrugated steel as a fence and I saw a pile of 2" sch40 pipe sticking up over the fence and they wouldn't sell me 50' to weld up a swing set for my kid. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] scrap yard rejuvenation? I remember when we used to go into scrap yards with a long list, and get almost everything we needed. That was a long time ago,and lately, everything has  been getting shipped to  China immediately. That may be about to change, as China, as of today, has banned the import of recycling materials.I wonder if that includes stainless. That could mean finding all we need in scrapyards again ,until they catch on to how much such a crazy move will cost them. Its a huge industry there, and estimates of a 300% increase in the cost of raw materials have been made.Many manufacturing companies have been moving to Mexico for much faster delivery times, and lower wage and shipping costs.What goes up must come down, and China is no exception.The excuse was " We don't want to be the worlds garbage dump any more".Kinda like the low income cruiser letting snobbery rob him of the money needed to go anywhere in his boat (Bob Perry style! "A teak deck will sure impress your landlubber neighbours, while  snobbery free people  cruising, and you go to work to pay for it.)I heard a great scrapyard in Powell River shut down, and that another new scrapyard got the contract there for the pulp mill stainless.Maybe we wont take months to find a stainless stovepipe anymore. | 34653|34640|2018-01-02 21:11:14|Matt Malone|Re: scrap yard rejuvenation?| The one near Central Parkway and Mavis in Mississauga is the same.   They might as well post a Chinese flag over the gate and apply for embassy status.  Once the steel is inside it might as well be in China.  Yes, I asked.  Their controlling company forbids any type of purchase at any price. Don Mills Steel at Woodbine and Stoufville sideroad north of Toronto is open to purchasers, lots of scrap, some stacks of stock like pipe. There is another near the Queenstown/Lewiston exit off the qew, opposite exit direction, like two sideroads away, mainly cars but some scrap at the back. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Larry Dale roboman3234@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 7:40:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] scrap yard rejuvenation?     Here in Southern Ontario there are 3 scrap steel yards in my small city and none of them will allow anyone in. The one had corrugated steel as a fence and I saw a pile of 2" sch40 pipe sticking up over the fence and they wouldn't sell me 50' to weld up a swing set for my kid. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] scrap yard rejuvenation? I remember when we used to go into scrap yards with a long list, and get almost everything we needed. That was a long time ago,and lately, everything has  been getting shipped to  China immediately. That may be about to change, as China, as of today, has banned the import of recycling materials. I wonder if that includes stainless. That could mean finding all we need in scrapyards again ,until they catch on to how much such a crazy move will cost them. Its a huge industry there, and estimates of a 300% increase in the cost of raw materials have been made. Many manufacturing companies have been moving to Mexico for much faster delivery times, and lower wage and shipping costs. What goes up must come down, and China is no exception. The excuse was " We don't want to be the worlds garbage dump any more". Kinda like the low income cruiser letting snobbery rob him of the money needed to go anywhere in his boat (Bob Perry style! "A teak deck will sure impress your landlubber neighbours, while  snobbery free people  cruising, and you go to work to pay for it.) I heard a great scrapyard in Powell River shut down, and that another new scrapyard got the contract there for the pulp mill stainless.Maybe we wont take months to find a stainless stovepipe anymore. | 34654|34640|2018-01-02 21:37:36|mountain man|Re: scrap yard rejuvenation?| Thanks for the info, Always good to know, Martin On Jan 2, 2018, at 9:12 PM, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   The one near Central Parkway and Mavis in Mississauga is the same.   They might as well post a Chinese flag over the gate and apply for embassy status.  Once the steel is inside it might as well be in China.  Yes, I asked.  Their controlling company forbids any type of purchase at any price. Don Mills Steel at Woodbine and Stoufville sideroad north of Toronto is open to purchasers, lots of scrap, some stacks of stock like pipe. There is another near the Queenstown/Lewiston exit off the qew, opposite exit direction, like two sideroads away, mainly cars but some scrap at the back. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Larry Dale roboman3234@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 7:40:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] scrap yard rejuvenation?     Here in Southern Ontario there are 3 scrap steel yards in my small city and none of them will allow anyone in. The one had corrugated steel as a fence and I saw a pile of 2" sch40 pipe sticking up over the fence and they wouldn't sell me 50' to weld up a swing set for my kid. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] scrap yard rejuvenation? I remember when we used to go into scrap yards with a long list, and get almost everything we needed. That was a long time ago,and lately, everything has  been getting shipped to  China immediately. That may be about to change, as China, as of today, has banned the import of recycling materials. I wonder if that includes stainless. That could mean finding all we need in scrapyards again ,until they catch on to how much such a crazy move will cost them. Its a huge industry there, and estimates of a 300% increase in the cost of raw materials have been made. Many manufacturing companies have been moving to Mexico for much faster delivery times, and lower wage and shipping costs. What goes up must come down, and China is no exception. The excuse was " We don't want to be the worlds garbage dump any more". Kinda like the low income cruiser letting snobbery rob him of the money needed to go anywhere in his boat (Bob Perry style! "A teak deck will sure impress your landlubber neighbours, while  snobbery free people  cruising, and you go to work to pay for it.) I heard a great scrapyard in Powell River shut down, and that another new scrapyard got the contract there for the pulp mill stainless.Maybe we wont take months to find a stainless stovepipe anymore. | 34655|34639|2018-01-04 09:28:16|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/foreign-imports-boom-as-solar-tariff-deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms-position/ Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.     Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time. Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34656|34639|2018-01-04 09:36:33|mountain man|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| Until Mitt Romney get elected...lol On Jan 4, 2018, at 9:28 AM, "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/foreign-imports-boom-as-solar-tariff-deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms-position/ Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.     Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time. Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34657|34639|2018-01-05 19:27:22|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| I know this was the 6th choice I gave below, but, I found a boat for this guy.   A classic plastic.  As far as I know all CSY 44s are solid glass hull and solid glass topsides and decks -- no core anywhere.  It has managed to not sink in close to 40 years, including at least one hurricane.   It comes with an engine.  Its mast is damaged from the hurricane.    Compared to building a boat, this is a virtually finished boat.   A new mast, bare would be about $1,200, fitted with rigging, $5,000.  These boats are so heavy do-it-yourself mast options are an option.  Replacement pulpits he could bend up and weld-up himself.   The mast broke it looks like above the spreaders/lower shrouds.   That looks like something that could be jury rigged pretty easily to get it somewhere else with better facilities and more competitive pricing for the replacement mast if the BVI guys want too much for a new mast.   If the guy was considering putting to sea in the steel boat he built, with equivalent seamanship, he is safer in this one.   This is is a boat that in good condition is worth $50,000-$80,000 as they have such a good reputation.   At $10,000 to start, with some work and maybe one other major system in addition to the mast (not going all-out crazy on expensive systems) he may not lose a cent on this boat when he re-sells it.    That is a pretty good prospect for any boat.    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Csy-44-Walkover-3159910/Nanny-Cay/British-Virgin-Islands#.WlAKz_ZOnq4 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com www.yachtworld.com 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail boat for sale, located in British Virgin Islands, NANNY CAY Yes, he would be better in a good steel boat, but find me a steel boat even a project with an engine and no interior, that is primed, and not rusted out for $10,000 -- and then he would still have to buy everything, perhaps even ballast to make it go.   The CSY 44 was designed to be a Caribbean near-idiot-proof boat -- they were built specifically to be chartered to idiots.  With some good seamanship it could be a tropical world cruiser.  It may well be a little cold and damp for Europe or BC in the winter (solid glass, no foam) but heck, at less than the price of a car, take a great big hole saw to the deck, put in a stainless plate with a smaller hole for the flue, and put in a wood stove in the cabin.  So it eats more firewood than a good foamed Brent boat -- who cares?   Miss the logs and the rocks, and one will not spend any tedious time fixing the gouges in inches of solid fibreglass.    It is just silly what capability of boats are available now for less than the price of the steel of a comparable sized steel boat.    If I did not already have a comparable boat now, or a steel boat, I would sure consider this one.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 7:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Hi Paul, I was not certain you had been unfair, I was just starting to see similarities in this thread to origami detractor threads.  Its hard to read the detractor threads and sort through what is fair, unfair, wrong, and just cruel.   It is hard not to post.   It is too easy to throw out everything said, but I think one should read them and see where there is a factor worth considering.   I would hope the builder of the boat might read our thread, and find nothing unfair, wrong or cruel, and while it may be tough to read, I would hope he sees things worth considering.   I do not really like his approach that he will just try it and see, particularly when it comes to structural questions.   Strictly speaking, when Brent made his first boat and voyage, there had to be some of the same element.  Just because it worked out and Brent was right that the method was sufficient, it is not a good model to follow:  a never-before tried specific design, and a never before tried specific technique, with a little-understood method.   The same recipe for someone else could have very unfortunate results.   Somehow it seems that Brent had to have started out with a far better appreciation of the limits of steel than this builder.   My specific problem with the structural questions is, virtually everything in loads on a boat hull go by something squared -- a quantity of something results in loads that are OK, a little more can result in much higher loads.   More wind, more wave height, more wave steepness leading to harder breaks, higher surface flow speeds.   I think it is everyone's experience that forces on a boat can apparently double simply by rounding a point and entering more exposed water and this is 10 steps short of his goal of world cruising.    Today was the first time I watched his first video on a large screen.   The part where he is standing in the open aft, and one can see the structure in cross-section, and he puts his hand near it, one gets a distinct impression that it is awfully thin and flat and the stiffeners are small maybe 1/4 x 1/2" flat bar.   I have to say, I am very uncomfortable.     The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.    If someone were to change his mind, convince him to give up this hull and start again before going to the time and expense of fitting the interior and systems, I think they would be doing him a great favour.   Alternately, he might be convinced that his interior had to be very structural, like wood frames added to the inside of a steel skin boat, but I think that would be the trying to save a steel hull by basically building a wood boat inside it.   All his interior volume would disappear in thick beams. Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements. Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?           Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 4:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     If you think I attacked him, that wasn't my intention.  I  made a point of saying that I liked his attitude.  I do think he is misguided in his approach. Most of his comments on youtube are nothing but encouragment with only a few naysayers from (it sounds) like knowledgeable people.   I am not sure why we should encourage him.   If he spends a few years building a boat that never works and has zero resale value, encouraging him isn't doing him any favors.   Don't forget that it may not be just him that goes sailing on the boat.  I had a friend go missing along with 6 others on an unsound boat.  They have never found any wreckage or any bodies.  It was very hard on the families.  Maybe this makes me sensitive.  Cheers, Paul | 34658|34639|2018-01-05 23:01:07|Brian Stannard|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|MatI very much doubt that the decks are glass without core. Very few boats, especially that size, had solid glass decks, especially in North America. Some early UK built boats didn't have cored decks but beams below running athwartships. The first version of the Spencer 35 had solid decks - the MkII was cored. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I know this was the 6th choice I gave below, but, I found a boat for this guy.   A classic plastic.  As far as I know all CSY 44s are solid glass hull and solid glass topsides and decks -- no core anywhere.  It has managed to not sink in close to 40 years, including at least one hurricane.   It comes with an engine.  Its mast is damaged from the hurricane.    Compared to building a boat, this is a virtually finished boat.   A new mast, bare would be about $1,200, fitted with rigging, $5,000.  These boats are so heavy do-it-yourself mast options are an option.  Replacement pulpits he could bend up and weld-up himself.   The mast broke it looks like above the spreaders/lower shrouds.   That looks like something that could be jury rigged pretty easily to get it somewhere else with better facilities and more competitive pricing for the replacement mast if the BVI guys want too much for a new mast.   If the guy was considering putting to sea in the steel boat he built, with equivalent seamanship, he is safer in this one.   This is is a boat that in good condition is worth $50,000-$80,000 as they have such a good reputation.   At $10,000 to start, with some work and maybe one other major system in addition to the mast (not going all-out crazy on expensive systems) he may not lose a cent on this boat when he re-sells it.    That is a pretty good prospect for any boat.    http://www.yachtworld.com/ boats/1979/Csy-44-Walkover- 3159910/Nanny-Cay/British- Virgin-Islands#.WlAKz_ZOnq4 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com www.yachtworld.com 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail boat for sale, located in British Virgin Islands, NANNY CAY Yes, he would be better in a good steel boat, but find me a steel boat even a project with an engine and no interior, that is primed, and not rusted out for $10,000 -- and then he would still have to buy everything, perhaps even ballast to make it go.   The CSY 44 was designed to be a Caribbean near-idiot-proof boat -- they were built specifically to be chartered to idiots.  With some good seamanship it could be a tropical world cruiser.  It may well be a little cold and damp for Europe or BC in the winter (solid glass, no foam) but heck, at less than the price of a car, take a great big hole saw to the deck, put in a stainless plate with a smaller hole for the flue, and put in a wood stove in the cabin.  So it eats more firewood than a good foamed Brent boat -- who cares?   Miss the logs and the rocks, and one will not spend any tedious time fixing the gouges in inches of solid fibreglass.    It is just silly what capability of boats are available now for less than the price of the steel of a comparable sized steel boat.    If I did not already have a comparable boat now, or a steel boat, I would sure consider this one.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 7:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Hi Paul, I was not certain you had been unfair, I was just starting to see similarities in this thread to origami detractor threads.  Its hard to read the detractor threads and sort through what is fair, unfair, wrong, and just cruel.   It is hard not to post.   It is too easy to throw out everything said, but I think one should read them and see where there is a factor worth considering.   I would hope the builder of the boat might read our thread, and find nothing unfair, wrong or cruel, and while it may be tough to read, I would hope he sees things worth considering.   I do not really like his approach that he will just try it and see, particularly when it comes to structural questions.   Strictly speaking, when Brent made his first boat and voyage, there had to be some of the same element.  Just because it worked out and Brent was right that the method was sufficient, it is not a good model to follow:  a never-before tried specific design, and a never before tried specific technique, with a little-understood method.   The same recipe for someone else could have very unfortunate results.   Somehow it seems that Brent had to have started out with a far better appreciation of the limits of steel than this builder.   My specific problem with the structural questions is, virtually everything in loads on a boat hull go by something squared -- a quantity of something results in loads that are OK, a little more can result in much higher loads.   More wind, more wave height, more wave steepness leading to harder breaks, higher surface flow speeds.   I think it is everyone's experience that forces on a boat can apparently double simply by rounding a point and entering more exposed water and this is 10 steps short of his goal of world cruising.    Today was the first time I watched his first video on a large screen.   The part where he is standing in the open aft, and one can see the structure in cross-section, and he puts his hand near it, one gets a distinct impression that it is awfully thin and flat and the stiffeners are small maybe 1/4 x 1/2" flat bar.   I have to say, I am very uncomfortable.     The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.    If someone were to change his mind, convince him to give up this hull and start again before going to the time and expense of fitting the interior and systems, I think they would be doing him a great favour.   Alternately, he might be convinced that his interior had to be very structural, like wood frames added to the inside of a steel skin boat, but I think that would be the trying to save a steel hull by basically building a wood boat inside it.   All his interior volume would disappear in thick beams. Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements. Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?           Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 4:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     If you think I attacked him, that wasn't my intention.  I  made a point of saying that I liked his attitude.  I do think he is misguided in his approach. Most of his comments on youtube are nothing but encouragment with only a few naysayers from (it sounds) like knowledgeable people.   I am not sure why we should encourage him.   If he spends a few years building a boat that never works and has zero resale value, encouraging him isn't doing him any favors.   Don't forget that it may not be just him that goes sailing on the boat.  I had a friend go missing along with 6 others on an unsound boat.  They have never found any wreckage or any bodies.  It was very hard on the families.  Maybe this makes me sensitive.  Cheers, Paul -- CheersBrian | 34659|34639|2018-01-06 00:26:06|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| Hi Brian, I completely understand.   If this were an earlier model CSY, I would be more confident, but, 1979, there is a chance that someone at CSY decided to put some core somewhere, you are right.   However solid decks are not as uncommon as you think in older boats.   My 1957 Rhodes Bounty, the deck is solid.  When the boat mover stepped on the front deck, and felt it flex, he said I had bad core.  I said, there is no core and jumped up and down to demonstrate it was not squishing under my feet, it was flexing slightly from gunwale to gunwale, like a bow, or stiff fishing rod.  The springs in my 1/2 ton truck were made of about 3/4" strips of fibreglass, same effect, but much more flex when I jumped in the truck bed than the deck for my weight.   My research had indicated CSY was the only other company that produced now-affordable boats in quantity to consistently stick to no core, but again, 1979 is quite late, after resin prices increased sharply with oil price, so, it is possible you are right. Here is another ad this time for a 1978 CSY 44 walkover: http://www.edwardsyachtsales.com/boat/1978/csy/walkover-center-cockpit/2154/ 1978 CSY Walkover Center Cockpit www.edwardsyachtsales.com View a large selection of CSY boats for sale at Edwards Yacht Sales, the source of brokerage boats and yachts on the web. "The CSY hull is up to 1.5" of solid fiberglass reinforced plastic resin with 14 dual layers (one sheet of fiberglass mat and one sheet of fiberglass weave = one layer). The avoidance of wood cores extends to the deck, which is also solid fiberglass. The only wood used in the construction of these boats are heavy laminated structural stringers, bulkheads and interior furniture."    I am not saying that salesmen are always honest, but, if they put it in writing, and one can unbolt one winch and see that there is spongy core, they stand the risk of being sued.   So I think the text is accurate and at least some from 1978 including this one were still no-core in the deck.      As-is, where is, for $45K.   That is a lower price for a CSY.   The boat I gave the link for below was $14K, I misread the ad.    It has a damaged mast, rub rails and pulpits....  Perhaps there is more wrong with it.  Maybe it stinks of mould and all the cushions will have to be trashed.   The engine may have seen some water owing to partial flooding, but there is no sign the boat went down or got blown ashore.  The engine likely has a ton of hours on it, maybe it has been stripped of sails, but, it still seems worth considering over the metal boat the guy had built.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 11:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Mat I very much doubt that the decks are glass without core. Very few boats, especially that size, had solid glass decks, especially in North America. Some early UK built boats didn't have cored decks but beams below running athwartships. The first version of the Spencer 35 had solid decks - the MkII was cored. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I know this was the 6th choice I gave below, but, I found a boat for this guy.   A classic plastic.  As far as I know all CSY 44s are solid glass hull and solid glass topsides and decks -- no core anywhere.  It has managed to not sink in close to 40 years, including at least one hurricane.   It comes with an engine.  Its mast is damaged from the hurricane.    Compared to building a boat, this is a virtually finished boat.   A new mast, bare would be about $1,200, fitted with rigging, $5,000.  These boats are so heavy do-it-yourself mast options are an option.  Replacement pulpits he could bend up and weld-up himself.   The mast broke it looks like above the spreaders/lower shrouds.   That looks like something that could be jury rigged pretty easily to get it somewhere else with better facilities and more competitive pricing for the replacement mast if the BVI guys want too much for a new mast.   If the guy was considering putting to sea in the steel boat he built, with equivalent seamanship, he is safer in this one.   This is is a boat that in good condition is worth $50,000-$80,000 as they have such a good reputation.   At $10,000 to start, with some work and maybe one other major system in addition to the mast (not going all-out crazy on expensive systems) he may not lose a cent on this boat when he re-sells it.    That is a pretty good prospect for any boat.    http://www.yachtworld.com/ boats/1979/Csy-44-Walkover- 3159910/Nanny-Cay/British- Virgin-Islands#.WlAKz_ZOnq4 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com www.yachtworld.com 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail boat for sale, located in British Virgin Islands, NANNY CAY Yes, he would be better in a good steel boat, but find me a steel boat even a project with an engine and no interior, that is primed, and not rusted out for $10,000 -- and then he would still have to buy everything, perhaps even ballast to make it go.   The CSY 44 was designed to be a Caribbean near-idiot-proof boat -- they were built specifically to be chartered to idiots.  With some good seamanship it could be a tropical world cruiser.  It may well be a little cold and damp for Europe or BC in the winter (solid glass, no foam) but heck, at less than the price of a car, take a great big hole saw to the deck, put in a stainless plate with a smaller hole for the flue, and put in a wood stove in the cabin.  So it eats more firewood than a good foamed Brent boat -- who cares?   Miss the logs and the rocks, and one will not spend any tedious time fixing the gouges in inches of solid fibreglass.    It is just silly what capability of boats are available now for less than the price of the steel of a comparable sized steel boat.    If I did not already have a comparable boat now, or a steel boat, I would sure consider this one.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 7:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Hi Paul, I was not certain you had been unfair, I was just starting to see similarities in this thread to origami detractor threads.  Its hard to read the detractor threads and sort through what is fair, unfair, wrong, and just cruel.   It is hard not to post.   It is too easy to throw out everything said, but I think one should read them and see where there is a factor worth considering.   I would hope the builder of the boat might read our thread, and find nothing unfair, wrong or cruel, and while it may be tough to read, I would hope he sees things worth considering.   I do not really like his approach that he will just try it and see, particularly when it comes to structural questions.   Strictly speaking, when Brent made his first boat and voyage, there had to be some of the same element.  Just because it worked out and Brent was right that the method was sufficient, it is not a good model to follow:  a never-before tried specific design, and a never before tried specific technique, with a little-understood method.   The same recipe for someone else could have very unfortunate results.   Somehow it seems that Brent had to have started out with a far better appreciation of the limits of steel than this builder.   My specific problem with the structural questions is, virtually everything in loads on a boat hull go by something squared -- a quantity of something results in loads that are OK, a little more can result in much higher loads.   More wind, more wave height, more wave steepness leading to harder breaks, higher surface flow speeds.   I think it is everyone's experience that forces on a boat can apparently double simply by rounding a point and entering more exposed water and this is 10 steps short of his goal of world cruising.    Today was the first time I watched his first video on a large screen.   The part where he is standing in the open aft, and one can see the structure in cross-section, and he puts his hand near it, one gets a distinct impression that it is awfully thin and flat and the stiffeners are small maybe 1/4 x 1/2" flat bar.   I have to say, I am very uncomfortable.     The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.    If someone were to change his mind, convince him to give up this hull and start again before going to the time and expense of fitting the interior and systems, I think they would be doing him a great favour.   Alternately, he might be convinced that his interior had to be very structural, like wood frames added to the inside of a steel skin boat, but I think that would be the trying to save a steel hull by basically building a wood boat inside it.   All his interior volume would disappear in thick beams. Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements. Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?           Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 4:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     If you think I attacked him, that wasn't my intention.  I  made a point of saying that I liked his attitude.  I do think he is misguided in his approach. Most of his comments on youtube are nothing but encouragment with only a few naysayers from (it sounds) like knowledgeable people.   I am not sure why we should encourage him.   If he spends a few years building a boat that never works and has zero resale value, encouraging him isn't doing him any favors.   Don't forget that it may not be just him that goes sailing on the boat.  I had a friend go missing along with 6 others on an unsound boat.  They have never found any wreckage or any bodies.  It was very hard on the families.  Maybe this makes me sensitive.  Cheers, Paul -- Cheers Brian | 34660|34639|2018-01-06 01:47:15|Brian Stannard|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|MattLooks like you were correct - at least as far as the early ones.Most any boat would be an improvement over the steel boat in the video. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 9:26 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Hi Brian, I completely understand.   If this were an earlier model CSY, I would be more confident, but, 1979, there is a chance that someone at CSY decided to put some core somewhere, you are right.   However solid decks are not as uncommon as you think in older boats.   My 1957 Rhodes Bounty, the deck is solid.  When the boat mover stepped on the front deck, and felt it flex, he said I had bad core.  I said, there is no core and jumped up and down to demonstrate it was not squishing under my feet, it was flexing slightly from gunwale to gunwale, like a bow, or stiff fishing rod.  The springs in my 1/2 ton truck were made of about 3/4" strips of fibreglass, same effect, but much more flex when I jumped in the truck bed than the deck for my weight.   My research had indicated CSY was the only other company that produced now-affordable boats in quantity to consistently stick to no core, but again, 1979 is quite late, after resin prices increased sharply with oil price, so, it is possible you are right. Here is another ad this time for a 1978 CSY 44 walkover: http://www.edwardsyachtsales. com/boat/1978/csy/walkover- center-cockpit/2154/ 1978 CSY Walkover Center Cockpit www.edwardsyachtsales.com View a large selection of CSY boats for sale at Edwards Yacht Sales, the source of brokerage boats and yachts on the web. "The CSY hull is up to 1.5" of solid fiberglass reinforced plastic resin with 14 dual layers (one sheet of fiberglass mat and one sheet of fiberglass weave = one layer). The avoidance of wood cores extends to the deck, which is also solid fiberglass. The only wood used in the construction of these boats are heavy laminated structural stringers, bulkheads and interior furniture."    I am not saying that salesmen are always honest, but, if they put it in writing, and one can unbolt one winch and see that there is spongy core, they stand the risk of being sued.   So I think the text is accurate and at least some from 1978 including this one were still no-core in the deck.      As-is, where is, for $45K.   That is a lower price for a CSY.   The boat I gave the link for below was $14K, I misread the ad.    It has a damaged mast, rub rails and pulpits....  Perhaps there is more wrong with it.  Maybe it stinks of mould and all the cushions will have to be trashed.   The engine may have seen some water owing to partial flooding, but there is no sign the boat went down or got blown ashore.  The engine likely has a ton of hours on it, maybe it has been stripped of sails, but, it still seems worth considering over the metal boat the guy had built.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 11:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Mat I very much doubt that the decks are glass without core. Very few boats, especially that size, had solid glass decks, especially in North America. Some early UK built boats didn't have cored decks but beams below running athwartships. The first version of the Spencer 35 had solid decks - the MkII was cored. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I know this was the 6th choice I gave below, but, I found a boat for this guy.   A classic plastic.  As far as I know all CSY 44s are solid glass hull and solid glass topsides and decks -- no core anywhere.  It has managed to not sink in close to 40 years, including at least one hurricane.   It comes with an engine.  Its mast is damaged from the hurricane.    Compared to building a boat, this is a virtually finished boat.   A new mast, bare would be about $1,200, fitted with rigging, $5,000.  These boats are so heavy do-it-yourself mast options are an option.  Replacement pulpits he could bend up and weld-up himself.   The mast broke it looks like above the spreaders/lower shrouds.   That looks like something that could be jury rigged pretty easily to get it somewhere else with better facilities and more competitive pricing for the replacement mast if the BVI guys want too much for a new mast.   If the guy was considering putting to sea in the steel boat he built, with equivalent seamanship, he is safer in this one.   This is is a boat that in good condition is worth $50,000-$80,000 as they have such a good reputation.   At $10,000 to start, with some work and maybe one other major system in addition to the mast (not going all-out crazy on expensive systems) he may not lose a cent on this boat when he re-sells it.    That is a pretty good prospect for any boat.    http://www.yachtworld.com/boat s/1979/Csy-44-Walkover-3159910 /Nanny-Cay/British-Virgin- Islands#.WlAKz_ZOnq4 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com www.yachtworld.com 1979 CSY 44 Walkover Sail boat for sale, located in British Virgin Islands, NANNY CAY Yes, he would be better in a good steel boat, but find me a steel boat even a project with an engine and no interior, that is primed, and not rusted out for $10,000 -- and then he would still have to buy everything, perhaps even ballast to make it go.   The CSY 44 was designed to be a Caribbean near-idiot-proof boat -- they were built specifically to be chartered to idiots.  With some good seamanship it could be a tropical world cruiser.  It may well be a little cold and damp for Europe or BC in the winter (solid glass, no foam) but heck, at less than the price of a car, take a great big hole saw to the deck, put in a stainless plate with a smaller hole for the flue, and put in a wood stove in the cabin.  So it eats more firewood than a good foamed Brent boat -- who cares?   Miss the logs and the rocks, and one will not spend any tedious time fixing the gouges in inches of solid fibreglass.    It is just silly what capability of boats are available now for less than the price of the steel of a comparable sized steel boat.    If I did not already have a comparable boat now, or a steel boat, I would sure consider this one.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 7:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Hi Paul, I was not certain you had been unfair, I was just starting to see similarities in this thread to origami detractor threads.  Its hard to read the detractor threads and sort through what is fair, unfair, wrong, and just cruel.   It is hard not to post.   It is too easy to throw out everything said, but I think one should read them and see where there is a factor worth considering.   I would hope the builder of the boat might read our thread, and find nothing unfair, wrong or cruel, and while it may be tough to read, I would hope he sees things worth considering.   I do not really like his approach that he will just try it and see, particularly when it comes to structural questions.   Strictly speaking, when Brent made his first boat and voyage, there had to be some of the same element.  Just because it worked out and Brent was right that the method was sufficient, it is not a good model to follow:  a never-before tried specific design, and a never before tried specific technique, with a little-understood method.   The same recipe for someone else could have very unfortunate results.   Somehow it seems that Brent had to have started out with a far better appreciation of the limits of steel than this builder.   My specific problem with the structural questions is, virtually everything in loads on a boat hull go by something squared -- a quantity of something results in loads that are OK, a little more can result in much higher loads.   More wind, more wave height, more wave steepness leading to harder breaks, higher surface flow speeds.   I think it is everyone's experience that forces on a boat can apparently double simply by rounding a point and entering more exposed water and this is 10 steps short of his goal of world cruising.    Today was the first time I watched his first video on a large screen.   The part where he is standing in the open aft, and one can see the structure in cross-section, and he puts his hand near it, one gets a distinct impression that it is awfully thin and flat and the stiffeners are small maybe 1/4 x 1/2" flat bar.   I have to say, I am very uncomfortable.     The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.    If someone were to change his mind, convince him to give up this hull and start again before going to the time and expense of fitting the interior and systems, I think they would be doing him a great favour.   Alternately, he might be convinced that his interior had to be very structural, like wood frames added to the inside of a steel skin boat, but I think that would be the trying to save a steel hull by basically building a wood boat inside it.   All his interior volume would disappear in thick beams. Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements. Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?           Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 4:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     If you think I attacked him, that wasn't my intention.  I  made a point of saying that I liked his attitude.  I do think he is misguided in his approach. Most of his comments on youtube are nothing but encouragment with only a few naysayers from (it sounds) like knowledgeable people.   I am not sure why we should encourage him.   If he spends a few years building a boat that never works and has zero resale value, encouraging him isn't doing him any favors.   Don't forget that it may not be just him that goes sailing on the boat.  I had a friend go missing along with 6 others on an unsound boat.  They have never found any wreckage or any bodies.  It was very hard on the families.  Maybe this makes me sensitive.  Cheers, Paul -- Cheers Brian -- CheersBrian | 34661|34639|2018-01-06 17:40:48|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|You have to really watch these "too good to be true" deals.  I know of one CSY that was full of termites and wood rot in the interior.  The whole inside needed stripping out.  Sometime the pictures they put up in the advertisements are old.  You need to go look yourself or get a reputable surveyor who is willing to send you new photos.  I did a delivery of a catamaran where the owner bought it sight unseen based on the brokerage photos.  It turned out the photos were 12 years old.   Almost everything was badly sun damaged or corroded and needed replacing.  It turned out he paid for a surveyor but the surveyor couldn't find a key and never went inside the boat.  He tapped all over the hull with a hammer, mapped it out and claimed that there were soft spots.   If he had got inside, he would have seen that some of the hull was cored but other spots around the machinery were single skin glass.  The surveyor charged  a lot of money and claimed to know what he was doing but in my opinion he was a total waste of skin.  I am not saying not to buy something....there are some incredible deals but you need to be careful.| 34662|34639|2018-01-06 18:01:23|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| Yup, absolutely you can never be sure what is going on.   The photos are at least relatively recent as the one with hurricane damage has to be from after the hurricane.   Everything else though, you never know, you are right.  A boat with hurricane damage and a broken mast generally goes cheap, so one could invest the money in a survey and hope that was the worst of it.   Most crap glass boats, a little hurricane damage and they end up with massive infiltration of moisture into the core that is unrecoverable.  With so many crap glass boats out there in sad condition, an old glass boat with hurricane damage is near unsellable.      Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 5:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     You have to really watch these "too good to be true" deals.  I know of one CSY that was full of termites and wood rot in the interior.  The whole inside needed stripping out.  Sometime the pictures they put up in the advertisements are old.  You need to go look yourself or get a reputable surveyor who is willing to send you new photos.  I did a delivery of a catamaran where the owner bought it sight unseen based on the brokerage photos.  It turned out the photos were 12 years old.   Almost everything was badly sun damaged or corroded and needed replacing.  It turned out he paid for a surveyor but the surveyor couldn't find a key and never went inside the boat.  He tapped all over the hull with a hammer, mapped it out and claimed that there were soft spots.   If he had got inside, he would have seen that some of the hull was cored but other spots around the machinery were single skin glass.  The surveyor charged  a lot of money and claimed to know what he was doing but in my opinion he was a total waste of skin.  I am not saying not to buy something....there are some incredible deals but you need to be careful. | 34663|34639|2018-01-06 21:29:02|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|For fair contrast, the video of a BS26 being dragged through a field by a truck left a different impression. "Uncertainty" is not the same as judging it too weak, unsafe or unseaworthy, which would be unfounded conclusions,  based just on pictures or video.   Quote)That was a36 ft brentboat ,not a 26. Try that with the average plastic 36.| 34664|34558|2018-01-06 23:21:43|juan antognini|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Thanks Brent for answeringJust today I bought the helmet of the "sailboat Julian" BS26They have to give me some things from the boat and with them a manual that they acquired before starting to build it.When I can I will upload photos to the group and with them a thousand queries of doubts that will come to me as I move forward with this project!Thanks againregardsJuan Ing. Juan E. Antognini Cerámica Cuenco (0280)154354047 El Lunes, 1 de enero, 2018 19:31:06, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" escribió:   Lo siento ,pero mis Espanol es muy limitado, y no puede esrcirbo mis libro en Espanol, sin la assistancia de Jesus""Un guia des Herejes, para Jesus ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Gracias Brent Si consigo comprar el barco, compro el manual para terminarlo. 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Keep me posted.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks Brent for answeringJust today I bought the helmet of the "sailboat Julian" BS26They have to give me some things from the boat and with them a manual that they acquired before starting to build it.When I can I will upload photos to the group and with them a thousand queries of doubts that will come to me as I move forward with this project!Thanks againregardsJuan Ing. Juan E. Antognini Cerámica Cuenco (0280)154354047 El Lunes, 1 de enero, 2018 19:31:06, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" escribió:  Lo siento ,pero mis Espanol es muy limitado, y no puede esrcirbo mis libro en Espanol, sin la assistancia de Jesus""Un guia des Herejes, para Jesus ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Gracias Brent Si consigo comprar el barco, compro el manual para terminarlo. 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#ygrps-yiv-2077791349ygrps-yiv-1756420660yiv2688247889 #ygrps-yiv-2077791349ygrps-yiv-1756420660yiv2688247889ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2077791349 #ygrps-yiv-2077791349ygrps-yiv-1756420660 #ygrps-yiv-2077791349ygrps-yiv-1756420660yiv2688247889 #ygrps-yiv-2077791349ygrps-yiv-1756420660yiv2688247889ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 34666|34640|2018-01-07 18:30:43|brentswain38|Re: scrap yard rejuvenation?|As Paul mentioned ,when the Chinese stop buying ,and they are threatened with getting stuck with the stuff, they will suck up to anyone, quickly, to make a sale.They are just not desperate enough.... yet.| 34667|34558|2018-01-07 18:43:51|juan antognini|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Hola JesusCompre el casco del BS26 aquí en Puerto Madryn Chubut Argentina, dentro de la comarca de Peninsula Valdes.Estoy interesado en el libro en español de Brent. ya que faltan resolver un montón de cosas y mi ingles es casi nulo.Me recordarías cual es el valor y cuales los medios de pago!Saludos Juan Ing. Juan E. Antognini Cerámica Cuenco (0280)154354047 El Lunes, 18 de diciembre, 2017 19:37:37, "jalborey@... [origamiboats]" escribió:   Juan, Brent's book contains a wealth of information on of metal boat construction, and then some in many aspects of boating in general. It could spare you a lot of money, time and hassles of any sort even if you don´t buy now the BS 26 in Puerto Madryn.  I had the pleasure of being asssociated with the publication of its Spanish edition years ago, but I haven´t the least monetary interest in it. 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#ygrps-yiv-1110435227yiv5382935004ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1110435227 #ygrps-yiv-1110435227yiv5382935004 #ygrps-yiv-1110435227yiv5382935004ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1110435227 | 34668|34639|2018-01-07 19:27:51|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1268496847 #ygrps-yiv-1268496847ygrps-yiv-618676393 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}       The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.     Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements.Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?         Matt(quote)2 inch fibreglass is heavier than 3/8th inch steel plate, stringers included. I believe 2 inch fibreglass  is almost non existent in boats under 40 feet. When they give the strength of a fibreglass hull, they give the tensile strength of glass ALONG  the direction of unidirectional fibres. Very few fibres run in any one direction ,and fibreglass is bonded by avery weak bonding agent; polyester . Across the grain of the fibres , fibreglass is very weak.Ditto cold molded wood.If, as most do, you run two diagonal layers ,and one horizontal, only one can run along the direction of any load. For the rest of the veneers,  the load is across the grain, which is very weak.In the  case of chainplates, all loads are across the grain of all three. Then there is joining  them at the bow and stern. No method gives 100% of the strength  of wood longitudinally, as steel  welding gives one anywhere.The same applies to fibreglass, in which very few fibres run in any one direction . Thus, the ultimate strength of fibreglass longitudinaly, along the direction of unidirectional fibres, is irrelevant. Only metals have equal strength in all directions, with 100% strength on any joints.When Parick had his Joshua style 39 footer "Trismus" blow on the reef at Rangiroa, she filled with  water thru an engine vent. He abandoned her, and went back to Belgium . He was lost at sea without  a trace, while   crossing the Atlantic in a plastic boat . After ten years of pounding on the reef ,the locals refloated her,  with  very little work, and used her for shipping coconuts across the lagoon . She was roughly 3/16 plate , like my 36. No plastic boat ever built would have survived more than an hour in those conditions , let alone ten years .Ditto the first 36 ft  brentboat surviving  16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, and being pulled off  1/4 mile thru 12 ft surf ,on the west coast  of Baja. Dito Viski pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral in big surf, then being dragged back over it by a tug, with minimal damage, then surviving a collision with  a freighter in  Gibraltar.It is this  extreme ductility which makes such a huge diference in survivability of steel, over plastic. What it takes to  break fibreglass would be energy absorbed by only denting  steel .  The survival of Joshua,  while a plastic boat disintegrated by landing on top of her at Cabo, is a clear demonstrastion of this.Hal Roth had his 1960s Spencer 35 holed quickly, in limited fetch near Cape Horn ,in conditions whic would have only dented steel, maybe. That was when they built them thick .  I can tie a knot in steel without breaking it. I have, as a brake operator, many times,  bent a sheet of steel,  in a sharp bend , 90 degrees, flattened it out, then bent it a sharp 90 degrees the opposite direction,  without  breaking it. No way can you do that with fibreglass. That is the type of ductility which gives steel such high survivability . Fibreglass doesn't even come remotely close.Yes, Bob Perry's modus operandi is to leave a client so broke, he cant go anywhere. That is why  so few of his designs leave the marina all that often. While some try to reduce the expense to clients, he does everything he can  to increase them. At $175 an hour, the more complicated and expensive he can make them, the more he gets paid. The longer he keeps them in a marina ,the more money he and his harem get paid . That is why he ridicules, and attacks  any suggestion of keeping costs down for cruisers.  | 34669|34639|2018-01-07 19:43:50|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|Some keep saying that Lloyds is the final test of a construction method.When I mentioned  on Cruisers Forum, that Lloyds advocates stainless keel bolts in soggy wood, a huge mistake , undermining their credibility, someone pouinted out that Lloyds 100A1 rating, their top rating , in plastic boats,  was dependent on hull thickness, regardless of what that thickness is made up of. It could be all matt or chopper gun layup, mostly resin, with very little in the way of glass fibres, the real source of strength. As long as it has the required thickness, it will get Lloyds top rating.One can assume this is the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to similar screwups, and probably similar with ABYC rules ,both of which some designers love , because it eliminates the need for  them to think, be logical , responsible for their decisions, or have any hands on experience | 34670|34558|2018-01-07 19:47:25|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Mis libro en Espanol es $25 ,y $20 por correos international,hasta Brent Swain3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 Gracias Brent| 34671|34671|2018-01-08 08:36:55|jpronk1|Alex’s Boat being towed|I was looking on YouTube for the video of the 36’ Brent Boat being towed across a field by a tow truck? Can’t find it? Help, anyone? James Sent from my iPhone| 34672|34639|2018-01-08 11:31:04|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| >2 inch fibreglass is heavier than 3/8th inch steel plate, stringers included. Absolutely.   And more expensive, it one were making it from scratch with new materials.   These old solid glass boats are only worth looking at because they are so inexpensive.   >When they give the strength of a fibreglass hull, they give the tensile strength of >glass ALONG  the direction of unidirectional fibres. Very few fibres run in any >one direction ,and fibreglass is bonded by avery weak bonding agent; polyester . >Across the grain of the fibres , fibreglass is very weak. Real engineers know the difference and will not quote unrealistic strengths.   https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/engineering-materials-properties-d_1225.html https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html First, ordinary glass fibres are stronger in one direction than all but the most exotic steels, like experimental, like, you will never be able to buy more than enough to make a wrench or tool bit out of. Take "ordinary" structural steel rod ASTM-A36 with a strength of 250 MPa to yield (bent), 400 MPa to failure versus a glass stringer anyone can make of 870 MPa for 45% fibre fraction.  Stronger in the direction it is going to be used, and it springs back to shape completely undamaged.   Why do they make fishing rods out of fibreglass and not steel?   They made them out of steel but they kept getting bent, and it was a pain to straighten them and decided, for that particular loading, fibreglass was better.    How about hockey sticks.   Most "Graphite" and "carbon" sticks are in fact mostly fiberglass.   Where is the steel hockey stick?  Same reason as fishing rods.   What Brent is getting at is ultimate strain before failure and he energy involved.   Glass it is generally about 2%.   A36 steel, it is 20%.     The energy to break good glass is about 1/2 (870MPa) * (0.02) = 8.7 whereas the energy required to completely liquorice a steel stringer into two pieces is about 1/2 (250+400)MPa * 0.2 = 65.   Therefore the total toughness of steel over fibreglass is about 7.5 times higher.   For the same amount of unidirectional glass rod vs. steel.   But what would a steel boat have to look like to gain that energy advantage?   Even crumpled into a car-crusher-compact ball, it still would have absorbed only a fraction of that energy.   The fact is, for a boat to remain looking remotely like something with an airspace in it, one can only use a tiny fraction of that toughness over all.    Since glass flexes and pops back to original shape over its entire energy absorbing range, good glass, well designed glass, like aerospace glass is not to be underestimated.  I have made such glass with my own hands, it is not impossible to get such quality in a layup with a little thought and about double the care in making it.   This is within reach of boat builders.  I have high speed video of glass laminates that are stiff as hell, exposed to blasts, flapping and rippling like a sheet in the wind absolutely unbelieveable deflections, and they pop right back to original shape with no damage afterward.   Until one has actually taken a sledge or an axe to good fibreglass where the flexibility drains energy from you like running in sand, one has no appreciation for its toughness.   One will get the impression that beating a hole in good fibreglass has a little more similarity to trying to beating a hole in a blasting mat than one might expect.   Yes, steel is 8 or more times tougher.   Chopper-gun fibreglass is dry spaghetti in comparison -- weak and brittle -- steel is at least 100 times better, hands down. Now when one makes a plate or shell laminate one has to vary the fibre direction.   0/90/+45/-45/-45/90/0 degrees x N layers is a common military one.    0/+60/-60/-60/+60/0 degrees * N layers is a common pressure-vessel one.   Taking the most pessimistic view of the ability of the matrix (epoxy) to transfer loads and allow off-axis layers to contribute to strength the first one is something better than 1/4 the strength of unidirection rod, the second something better than 1/3 the strength of unidirectional rod.   So 870MPa becomes >217MPa and > 290MPa.   which compares nicely to A36 steel at 250MPa before it takes on a permanent bend.   That is 3/8" of steel vs. 3/8" of well laid glass, glass I could make, and virtually no boats are made of.   The Open 60s and other offshore racers are no doubt made with aerospace-level (and tennis racket and fishing-rod and hockey stick) attention to detail. Now, 2" of glass vs. 3/8" of steel, the steel is not winning on any raw static properties.  But abrasion resistance is the downfall of glass and the strength of steel.   Here Brent illustrates this point: >After ten years of pounding on the reef, the locals refloated her (small steel boat),  >with  very little work, and used her for shipping coconuts across >the lagoon . She was roughly 3/16 plate , like my 36. No plastic >boat ever built would have survived more than an hour in those >conditions , let alone ten years .  I won't bet that a good glass boat would last more than 20-30 minutes, but I will not bet against it lasting an hour either.   It really depends on specifics.   If one cannot get off a reef in 20-30 minutes, chances are, the boat is staying and one is leaving the boat, at least temporarily.   If the locals pull it off the reef years later, is that a benefit to me?   There is only a narrow window of practical advantage to the owner of a steel boat over a good glass boat in this circumstance.   I would choose the steel boat, all other things being equal, but, they are not equal and a good glass boat is not an awful choice.   If someone gave me a 3/8" steel boat for the same price and the same amount of work as a 2" glass boat, I would take the steel boat.   The point I was making in my last post was, they are not giving away 3/8" steel boats for even 4 or 5 times what one can get a thick glass boat for, if one is years-patient, and does their research.    When one brings cost and work and maintenance into it, some people will prefer the thick glass, over steel.   By its very nature the material that gives strength to the boat is more resistant to degradation in seawater.   Steel boats are going to be many times more work in coatings to get decades of life out of them.   Get in a scrape and lose some coatings on a steel boat and the clock is ticking faster to get that taken care of over a solid glass boat.    Good glass is not an awful choice.  A good glass boat is not as abrasion resistant as a small steel, but, it is better than the vast majority of boats on the ocean.    Do you think a steel freighter can rub on a reef for more than an hour without a hole?    Small steel boats are just ridiculously tough.   There is merit in taking advantage of that.   If one has a good glass boat, then perhaps one should be as cautious as the vast majority of boat pilots on the ocean.   It is not unreasonable to ask. Now, a bilge-keel, tough steel boat, maybe the owner tries that dicey lagoon entry they should not have, and they bounce across a reef, and then spend a week drying and painting scrapes.   The BS design is self-compensating and clever.   That does not make the good glass boat that sails on to the proper entry, maybe into a different lagoon an awful boat.   Yes there is the potential that small steel boats are more idiot proof than any other boat out there.   I am not going to mock the people who have had accidents in steel boats, like the detractor forums will.  As part of their business model, origami detractors have to mock seamanship errors, first to protect themselves from being sued.  Secondly, if foolishness causes their customer to buy another boat from them, then the detractors have made twice as much money from that customer.  Their interest in boats is in making money from boats.  One will get nowhere saying they are doing something wrong because 99% of all boat building depends on these motivations and approaches.   One can say they have a better way that is well suited to a certain fraction of the market without saying the rest is bad, because without it, we would not have modern commerce.   An individual can choose a way that is better for them. Brent mentioned sinking a boat before he built his first origami.   I can only guess it was a crap glass boat, and this made quite an impression on him and motivated him to do something better.   It is clear he has achieved that.     But that is not the issue here.    - The proposal I made was good glass (a specific CSY) over bad steel (the boat he is building).    - Brent argues good steel (origami) over bad fibreglass (chopper and foam).    It is an entirely different discussion, and not relevant to the man with the thin steel boat. The more important question is, does Brent think this man's boat would be safer than a specific 1.5" glass boat that has managed not to sink in nearly 40 years?   Brent might: 1) Tell him his boat is good, 2) Tell him his boat is bad, he is at best wasting his time, and at worst risking his life, he should start an origami now and cut up that boat for cabinets and ventilators and maybe a 7 foot tender.   3) Tell him he should do anything else but that boat. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :       The thing that worried me the most was at the beginning when he was reading the strengths of steel and fibreglass.   He said pounds per square inch.  That is like for a bar of 1"x1" material in a testing machine.   At 0.125" 11 gauge plates are completely different from bars.   The proper units for membrane stresses would be pounds per linear inch of plate.   That is how thickness comes into it, and how one would see that 10 gauge plate is stronger than 11 gauge plate in membrane stress.   If he had gotten this right, I would at least think he knew the first thing about structural strength.   I really am trying to be as polite as possible, but this is really basic stuff, and Paul is right, it is not just him, it is his passengers and everyone who comes to save them and potentially everyone left behind.   The designer, which he is in this case, should be better.   I vote with Paul in his implication of safety by citing the case of his lost friend.   I am concerned. Going one step further on structural stuff, plate out-of-plane stiffness goes as thickness cubed.   This is where the steel to fibreglass really makes a difference.   Even crap no-core plastic boats, which I have two, neither one is anywhere near as thin as 0.125".     A typical fibreglass boat is going to be 0.25" or greater, which leads to a factor of 2 on thickness, and a factor of 8 contribution to plate stiffness from the geometry aspects, before taking into account material property differences.   In reality, most modern glass boats are two layers of 0.25" each separated by foam.   The plate stiffness versus distributed loads is increased by foam thickness squared.   The puncture resistance verses a fist or sledge-hammer-head sized contact, comparable to the dimension of the foam thickness, is still aided by the thickness of the foam absorbing energy and the loading on the inner skin of fibreglass being spread out to a much larger diameter -- by a certain measure, there is toughness there.   Though a good swing might fail the outer layer of fibreglass, the inner layer is protected.   I say might, because, until you have swung a sledge at a section of good hull on a cored boat, you really have no idea how tough it is.   Not many people realize the thickness of the foam in newer boats really is a structural thing and makes them stiffer, stronger and tougher than one might think.  They may come out of it looking chewed to pieces, but still floating.   Naturally, something more like a knife edge forcefully pushed in is something different.   That is crap glass.   Real glass boats, of inches of thickness, hands down, there is no direction in which 11 gauge steel is stronger.   It seems to me even a repeated rub on a sharp edge is going to can-opener 0.125" steel before getting all the way through 2" of solid glass.     Alternately, he could be acquainted with the empirical frames-assuming scantling design rules, which a traditional naval architect would be familiar with so that he might measure his design oranges to or oranges with the likes of Robert Perry.   Yes, there is the danger someone like Robert Perry might start "soaking" him for huge sums of money to make a "proper" boat, but at least there would not be as much concern about him ever making it out onto the water, and if he does, the boat would have to have met SOME minimum requirements. Alternately, someone might encourage him to build an BS26, or buy a project in a similar level of completion. One might encourage him to do a test:  Buy an old tank, something that has the same wall thickness to length ratio as his boat (I do not know any application were a tank would be so flimsy).    Weld stringers to the outside, something proportionately smaller, and take it down to the ocean and let the sea judge it.  No this is not a fair test, boats do not scale hydrodynamically, and membrane stresses and plate bending stresses all at the same time.    But if the model gets beat to crap, and he considers he wants something safer, and this saves him a ton of money, to start, I think it is fair.   Lastly, and I do not think this is some joke -- encourage him to buy a really old inches-thick solid fibreglass boat, one that when one slaps it, it sounds like concrete like there is no cabin inside -- and just go sailing.   I really think one is safer in a boat that has managed not to sink for over 4 decades than the one I see in the video.     Yes, Paul, I believe I have been most harsh but ultimately fair.  I was not criticizing you, I was considering the parallel of what we, and in particular I, might write about him, and what others write about Brent.   Some of the posters on the detractor forums must be entirely convinced that unlike other designs, a miniscule fraction of BS boats ever leave protected waters, and that the boats are actually completely unsafe.   Really, if they have never received a proper analytical, but instead an empirical education in structural design, and a design does not follow the patterns they are familiar with and have learned empirical formulas for, you can't blame them for saying look, it is not the same as the accepted patterns (frames), therefore it is unsafe.   It would be like asking an empirical barn designer (post and beam) to say a concrete shell structure is safe.   He would naturally say, look there are no posts or beams, it can't be safe.   One concrete cooling tower collapses somewhere in the world, and they are unmovably convinced that shells for boats can't work.          How are we to appear different than Brent's detractors when we express harsh doubts about his design?           Matt (quote) 2 inch fibreglass is heavier than 3/8th inch steel plate, stringers included. I believe 2 inch fibreglass  is almost non existent in boats under 40 feet.  When they give the strength of a fibreglass hull, they give the tensile strength of glass ALONG  the direction of unidirectional fibres. Very few fibres run in any one direction ,and fibreglass is bonded by avery weak bonding agent; polyester . Across the grain of the fibres , fibreglass is very weak. Ditto cold molded wood. If, as most do, you run two diagonal layers ,and one horizontal, only one can run along the direction of any load. For the rest of the veneers,  the load is across the grain, which is very weak.In the  case of chainplates, all loads are across the grain of all three. Then there is joining  them at the bow and stern. No method gives 100% of the strength  of wood longitudinally, as steel  welding gives one anywhere. The same applies to fibreglass, in which very few fibres run in any one direction . Thus, the ultimate strength of fibreglass longitudinaly, along the direction of unidirectional fibres, is irrelevant. Only metals have equal strength in all directions, with 100% strength on any joints. When Parick had his Joshua style 39 footer "Trismus" blow on the reef at Rangiroa, she filled with  water thru an engine vent. He abandoned her, and went back to Belgium . He was lost at sea without  a trace, while   crossing the Atlantic in a plastic boat . After ten years of pounding on the reef ,the locals refloated her,  with  very little work, and used her for shipping coconuts across the lagoon . She was roughly 3/16 plate , like my 36. No plastic boat ever built would have survived more than an hour in those conditions , let alone ten years . Ditto the first 36 ft  brentboat surviving  16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, and being pulled off  1/4 mile thru 12 ft surf ,on the west coast  of Baja. Dito Viski pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral in big surf, then being dragged back over it by a tug, with minimal damage, then surviving a collision with  a freighter in  Gibraltar. It is this  extreme ductility which makes such a huge diference in survivability of steel, over plastic. What it takes to  break fibreglass would be energy absorbed by only denting  steel .  The survival of Joshua,  while a plastic boat disintegrated by landing on top of her at Cabo, is a clear demonstrastion of this. Hal Roth had his 1960s Spencer 35 holed quickly, in limited fetch near Cape Horn ,in conditions whic would have only dented steel, maybe. That was when they built them thick .   I can tie a knot in steel without breaking it. I have, as a brake operator, many times,  bent a sheet of steel,  in a sharp bend , 90 degrees, flattened it out, then bent it a sharp 90 degrees the opposite direction,  without  breaking it. No way can you do that with fibreglass. That is the type of ductility which gives steel such high survivability . Fibreglass doesn't even come remotely close. Yes, Bob Perry's modus operandi is to leave a client so broke, he cant go anywhere. That is why  so few of his designs leave the marina all that often. While some try to reduce the expense to clients, he does everything he can  to increase them. At $175 an hour, the more complicated and expensive he can make them, the more he gets paid. The longer he keeps them in a marina ,the more money he and his harem get paid . That is why he ridicules, and attacks  any suggestion of keeping costs down for cruisers.   | 34675|34671|2018-01-08 13:33:01|t.staes|Re: Alex’s Boat being towed|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9JYXMxa0o| 34676|34671|2018-01-08 13:39:25|opuspaul|Re: Alex’s Boat being towed|Here ya go...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9JYXMxa0o---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I was looking on YouTube for the video of the 36’ Brent Boat being towed across a field by a tow truck? Can’t find it? Help, anyone? James Sent from my iPhone| 34677|34639|2018-01-08 14:17:15|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|You can crush a steel can flat without making a hole in it. Try that with fibreglass.Any hockey parent will tell you that carbon fibre hockey sticks have very high (and expensive) breakage rate.Given carbon's high tensile strength, and the fact that the strength of the compresion side of the stick is entirley dependent on the resin to hold the fibres in column, it would be interesting to see if the breakage is mainly buckling on the compression side. I suspect it all is.Had Patrick tried to salvage the Trismus from Rangiroa, he wouldn't have gone missing in a plastic boat . The first  36, after 16 days of pounding on a Baja beach, was salvaged with no serious dammage, and sailed on,  as did "Viski "after pounding across 300 yards of  Fiji reef in big surf, and coliding with a freighter ,and Nuthin Wong, after many days on a Balerics rock pile and months on a Panama reef.So much for the theory that a boat agound is inevitable lost! The ability to survive made all the difference. Any plastic boat would have broken up quickly. Pays back for a lot of maintenance time.Pays even better if it keeps you alive in mid ocean. The Sleavin family would have probably survived  in a steel boat ,as would many more like them. That justifies a lot of maintenance, altho there is not much, if you keep on top of it ( couple of hours a year, a fraction of the time the pretentious  waste on varnish, which is funtionally, totally useless!)I once raced on a Cal 48 , a heavily built plastic boat ,creaking, flexing and groaning the whole time.When a friend suggested he buy one of my boats, he said "Those brent boats are only good for hiting rocks":One of my 36 footers had already sailed  circles around him in a race. I recently heard of the time he was sailing, and one of his crew asked  "What is that blue thing  back there?"Turned out it was their rudder!Deck leaks are extremely common on plastic boats, something you dont get with welded down fittings.Sail magazine recently published a story about a guy doing a nonstop circumnavigation in a ( Little boys) BobPerry design. The guy was soaking wet the whole way, constanly pumping for his life.   Read Web Chiles' story about his circumnavigation on an Ericson 37 ,a book called "Storm Passage. Same thing, constanly pumping for his life, and  soaking wet the whole way.Now read Moitesiers books  "The Long Way" and "Cape Horn the Logical Route". Dust in his bilges and dry, easy, worry free voyages, a total contrast which couldn't have spelt out more clearly the contrast  between going in steel, and going in plastic.Stock plastic boats? Most of my clients have been there, done that, and are sick of plastic's problems , and end up upgrading to something better, when they go steel. Few would even consider going back to plastic.You say an hour would grind thru a ships plating?  Not a chance! The above examples demonstrate what a bullshit, old wives tale that is.Would an hour grind thru plastic ?Definitely! | 34678|34639|2018-01-08 15:32:40|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| >You say an hour would grind thru a ships plating?  Not a chance! >The above examples demonstrate what a bullshit, old wives tale that is. A metal shear is steel, and it cuts steel by using the steel's own stiffness against it, allowing one to concentrate force.   Steel can rip steel.   That is how one breaks coat hanger wire bending it back and forward.  One uses geometrical leverage, and the strength of the steel on one side against the strength of the steel on the other.   One does not press the coat hanger against a rock and magically separate it, or rub it a few times on a rock and have it come apart.   Forces originating from another part of the boat cause a rip in the steel in a small adjacent part.   Incompatible displacement between ships frames can leave the steel plating between two frames, now very different shapes, under loads that exceed the skin's strength.  There may be no direct external load on the part of the steel that rips, it is just in the wrong spot relative to how the over all structure changes.   Brent said one can crush a can flat without making holes in it.   This is again relying on the ultimate strain of the material being more than 2%, of it being ductile, which fibreglass is not.   Yes, sometimes one can crush a can without making holes.   Sometimes however where the folds and creases meet as a corner, you will find a little hole there.   Did one press directly on the spot with the hole? -- no.   The strength and stiffness of the rest of the can, coupled with the displacement forced on the can as a whole caused the hole.    So yes, freighters that hit reefs can and do rip, take on water and occasionally sink, not because they rub through.  The steel rips somewhere, and not because the rock ripped the hole, but the rock caused such deflections that the stiffness of the steel itself and incompatible deflection overloaded an adjacent section of steel.   The structure develops a little hole and now this is a stress concentration that the rest of the steel of the ship can transfer load to, and rip more.   I did research on ship structures.   My recollection was, the outer plate on our test piece was only 3/8".   Put that on a ship over 300 feet long (it would be like a 30' origami made of 20 gauge steel), especially one with frames, and then ram the thing into a rock and change the shape of some frames, and yes, some part of the plate can find itself unable to make up the displacement of the ship around it and it can rip.  I have ripped 20 gauge steel before.  It should not be at all surprising if it is the skin of a ship between frames, it can be ripped.  Steel rips steel.   Rocks need not directly rip steel to make a hole.   Rocks need not rub through steel for there to be a hole.      If the guy with this boat had used stiffer frames, it might hold the forces of the sea better, but, when the forces overcome the frames, and some change shape sharply then the frames might have the strength needed to rip holes in the 11 gauge skin.   As it is, the entire thing seems pretty uniformly flimsy, its hard to say what it will do when it crumples, whether it will stay a sealed can, or whether it will be a can that rips holes in itself. The more important question is, does Brent think this man's boat would be safer than a specific 1.5" glass boat that has managed not to sink in nearly 40 years?   Brent might: 1) Tell him his boat is good, 2) Tell him his boat is bad, he is at best wasting his time, and at worst risking his life, he should start an origami now and cut up that boat for cabinets and ventilators and maybe a 7 foot tender.   3) Tell him he should do anything else but that boat. >Now read Moitesiers books  "The Long Way" and "Cape Horn the Logical Route". >Dust in his bilges and dry, easy, worry free voyages, a total contrast which couldn't >have spelt out more clearly the contrast  between going in steel, and going in plastic. Sailing to the Reefs is good too.   It describes how he decides on steel after cracking up two boats on reefs.  Not all plastic boats are pump-for-your-life wet.   Yes, welding things down is a huge advantage in steel, provided you weld everything you will ever weld down before coating and foaming the inside, afterward it is a lot more work.    Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 2:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     You can crush a steel can flat without making a hole in it. Try that with fibreglass. Any hockey parent will tell you that carbon fibre hockey sticks have very high (and expensive) breakage rate. Given carbon's high tensile strength, and the fact that the strength of the compresion side of the stick is entirley dependent on the resin to hold the fibres in column, it would be interesting to see if the breakage is mainly buckling on the compression side. I suspect it all is. Had Patrick tried to salvage the Trismus from Rangiroa, he wouldn't have gone missing in a plastic boat . The first  36, after 16 days of pounding on a Baja beach, was salvaged with no serious dammage, and sailed on,  as did "Viski "after pounding across 300 yards of  Fiji reef in big surf, and coliding with a freighter ,and Nuthin Wong, after many days on a Balerics rock pile and months on a Panama reef. So much for the theory that a boat agound is inevitable lost! The ability to survive made all the difference. Any plastic boat would have broken up quickly. Pays back for a lot of maintenance time. Pays even better if it keeps you alive in mid ocean. The Sleavin family would have probably survived  in a steel boat ,as would many more like them. That justifies a lot of maintenance, altho there is not much, if you keep on top of it ( couple of hours a year, a fraction of the time the pretentious  waste on varnish, which is funtionally, totally useless!) I once raced on a Cal 48 , a heavily built plastic boat ,creaking, flexing and groaning the whole time. When a friend suggested he buy one of my boats, he said "Those brent boats are only good for hiting rocks": One of my 36 footers had already sailed  circles around him in a race. I recently heard of the time he was sailing, and one of his crew asked  "What is that blue thing  back there?" Turned out it was their rudder! Deck leaks are extremely common on plastic boats, something you dont get with welded down fittings.Sail magazine recently published a story about a guy doing a nonstop circumnavigation in a ( Little boys) BobPerry design. The guy was soaking wet the whole way, constanly pumping for his life.    Read Web Chiles' story about his circumnavigation on an Ericson 37 ,a book called "Storm Passage. Same thing, constanly pumping for his life, and  soaking wet the whole way. Now read Moitesiers books  "The Long Way" and "Cape Horn the Logical Route". Dust in his bilges and dry, easy, worry free voyages, a total contrast which couldn't have spelt out more clearly the contrast  between going in steel, and going in plastic. Stock plastic boats? Most of my clients have been there, done that, and are sick of plastic's problems , and end up upgrading to something better, when they go steel. Few would even consider going back to plastic. You say an hour would grind thru a ships plating?  Not a chance! The above examples demonstrate what a bullshit, old wives tale that is. Would an hour grind thru plastic ?Definitely! | 34679|34671|2018-01-08 16:36:05|prairiemaidca|Re: Alex’s Boat being towed|I've always told people my Swain boat is a tank of the sea, well now I know that a BS boat if given a gun turret could actually double as a tank.  Testimony to one real tuff design of a boat.  Try dragging a multimillion dollar carbon high end boat across a field with a truck.  That's real piece of mind when the going gets tough....Martin...(Prairie Maid)| 34680|34671|2018-01-08 16:43:02|Matt Malone|Re: [origamiboats] Re: Alex’s Boat being towed| A loop of that video should be the animated GIF used in the poster's identity for posting on detractor threads, so every post, there is the video under their identity.   Sort of the honey badger don't care video of a steel boat being run aground.   Aground?  Don't care.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 4:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex’s Boat being towed     I've always told people my Swain boat is a tank of the sea, well now I know that a BS boat if given a gun turret could actually double as a tank.  Testimony to one real tuff design of a boat.  Try dragging a multimillion dollar carbon high end boat across a field with a truck.  That's real piece of mind when the going gets tough.... Martin...(Prairie Maid) | 34681|34639|2018-01-08 19:04:03|jpronk1|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone| 34682|34639|2018-01-09 10:18:24|Matt Malone|Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| James wrote: >We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even >after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. After your experience, what do you attribute the leaks to? If hardware sat perfectly still then modern sealants should have been completely effective.   So I am guessing that the hardware might have been moving.   I can think of several possible reasons:  - the holes through the deck were bigger than the fasteners, or  - the fasteners were chewing a larger hole through the deck when loaded, possibly because  - the deck was locally weak from rot in core or something. I have yet to experience a repeat in leaks after giving a piece of deck hardware my full attention.   In my case I would attribute that to two main factors:  That the boat has not spent a continuous year in the water and use since the work was done.   I used massive backing and fronting plates, 3/16" stainless, 10 times the area of the base of the hardware (the original design was dumb).   I also solid-filled the deck with glass.   I used an L-shaped scraper I made to remove bad core far back between the glass layers.  I cleaned the cavity.  I stuffed in wads of glass mat soaked in epoxy to replace the core material.   I used packing tape to temporarily seal it, and to make a form.  I used plasticine volcanos as funnels to fill the remaining void space not occupied by glass mat.   This made the area of deck solid fibreglass.    I explain the procedure in detail in an earlier post, plasticine volcano might be a useful search term.)   One thing that helped me was the original design was really dumb, and there was end-grain balsa core in the areas I was fixing -- easily scooped out from between fibreglass layers with an L shaped scraper.  Most cored-deck boats use squares of marine plywood where there is load, and even rotten, these would be way harder to scrape out without removing at least one layer of glass.  The core area I was replacing was larger than the hole in the deck glass -- that is what the L-shaped scraper was for, to reach between the inner and outer glass around the repair.   After doing this, I used a thick later of silicone to stick down the backing and fronting plates, so, when loaded, the fasteners were digging into the sides of the stainless holes, load was transferred from the stainless to the deck in a larger area than the hardware.    Now, the hardware I was sealing down was not a winch or a cleat, so, yours might well have been under more lateral load.   If I were to imagine extending the method for heavy lateral loads, I might sleeve the holes in the now solidified deck with short lengths of 1/4 or 3/8" schedule 80 pipe and epoxy the sleeves in for no lateral movement.   Next step up from that, I might weld the sleeves to the fronting plate before putting it down -- essentially putting roots on my winch or cleat mounting plate.   If that does not work, it seems to me that area of the deck was just not made strong enough for that piece of hardware.     I hate glass work.  I far prefer to weld.  The idea of welding down deck hardware is very attractive.   But all my boats are glass.         I would like to learn from your experience James.  Can you offer any suggestions what caused the leaks?  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone | 34683|34639|2018-01-09 10:59:20|jpronk1|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|The main reason it leaked was wear and tear. The average bowed in Ontario gets used about 40 hours a season. We did that every single week for a year. We would have had to re-bed the hardware every two months which we ended up doing to stop the leaking. That would not have happened if all the hardware had been welded to a non-pervious skin like well painted steel. We travel Quite often with two other boats,one was steel the other was aluminum. The steel Boat had no leaks and the aluminum boat only leaked where hardware had been born in bedded and bolted down. They were doing the same thing as us removing hardware reselling it and bolting it back down every two months!Just my experience,JamesYou can say anything, and you can choose to listen to people that say anything, or you can figure it out yourself. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 9, 2018, at 10:18 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   James wrote: >We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even >after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. After your experience, what do you attribute the leaks to? If hardware sat perfectly still then modern sealants should have been completely effective.   So I am guessing that the hardware might have been moving.   I can think of several possible reasons:  - the holes through the deck were bigger than the fasteners, or  - the fasteners were chewing a larger hole through the deck when loaded, possibly because  - the deck was locally weak from rot in core or something. I have yet to experience a repeat in leaks after giving a piece of deck hardware my full attention.   In my case I would attribute that to two main factors:  That the boat has not spent a continuous year in the water and use since the work was done.   I used massive backing and fronting plates, 3/16" stainless, 10 times the area of the base of the hardware (the original design was dumb).   I also solid-filled the deck with glass.   I used an L-shaped scraper I made to remove bad core far back between the glass layers.  I cleaned the cavity.  I stuffed in wads of glass mat soaked in epoxy to replace the core material.   I used packing tape to temporarily seal it, and to make a form.  I used plasticine volcanos as funnels to fill the remaining void space not occupied by glass mat.   This made the area of deck solid fibreglass.    I explain the procedure in detail in an earlier post, plasticine volcano might be a useful search term.)   One thing that helped me was the original design was really dumb, and there was end-grain balsa core in the areas I was fixing -- easily scooped out from between fibreglass layers with an L shaped scraper.  Most cored-deck boats use squares of marine plywood where there is load, and even rotten, these would be way harder to scrape out without removing at least one layer of glass.  The core area I was replacing was larger than the hole in the deck glass -- that is what the L-shaped scraper was for, to reach between the inner and outer glass around the repair.   After doing this, I used a thick later of silicone to stick down the backing and fronting plates, so, when loaded, the fasteners were digging into the sides of the stainless holes, load was transferred from the stainless to the deck in a larger area than the hardware.    Now, the hardware I was sealing down was not a winch or a cleat, so, yours might well have been under more lateral load.   If I were to imagine extending the method for heavy lateral loads, I might sleeve the holes in the now solidified deck with short lengths of 1/4 or 3/8" schedule 80 pipe and epoxy the sleeves in for no lateral movement.   Next step up from that, I might weld the sleeves to the fronting plate before putting it down -- essentially putting roots on my winch or cleat mounting plate.   If that does not work, it seems to me that area of the deck was just not made strong enough for that piece of hardware.     I hate glass work.  I far prefer to weld.  The idea of welding down deck hardware is very attractive.   But all my boats are glass.         I would like to learn from your experience James.  Can you offer any suggestions what caused the leaks?  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone | 34684|34639|2018-01-09 11:23:11|Matt Malone|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| Thank you James, This was an aspect I had not considered, serial re-bedding of hardware.   Yours is a true experience and it underlines this must be a much harder problem than I think it is.   Still it seems to me there should be some solution to be found that would at least make the period 2 years and not 2 months.   2 months with a minimum of 4 winches and 8 cleats, not to mention stantion posts, and chain plates, that is two a week.   That is just excessive.  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 10:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     The main reason it leaked was wear and tear. The average bowed in Ontario gets used about 40 hours a season. We did that every single week for a year. We would have had to re-bed the hardware every two months which we ended up doing to stop the leaking. That would not have happened if all the hardware had been welded to a non-pervious skin like well painted steel.  We travel Quite often with two other boats,one was steel the other was aluminum. The steel Boat had no leaks and the aluminum boat only leaked where hardware had been born in bedded and bolted down. They were doing the same thing as us removing hardware reselling it and bolting it back down every two months! Just my experience, James You can say anything, and you can choose to listen to people that say anything, or you can figure it out yourself.  Sent from my iPhone On Jan 9, 2018, at 10:18 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   James wrote: >We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even >after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. After your experience, what do you attribute the leaks to? If hardware sat perfectly still then modern sealants should have been completely effective.   So I am guessing that the hardware might have been moving.   I can think of several possible reasons:  - the holes through the deck were bigger than the fasteners, or  - the fasteners were chewing a larger hole through the deck when loaded, possibly because  - the deck was locally weak from rot in core or something. I have yet to experience a repeat in leaks after giving a piece of deck hardware my full attention.   In my case I would attribute that to two main factors:  That the boat has not spent a continuous year in the water and use since the work was done.   I used massive backing and fronting plates, 3/16" stainless, 10 times the area of the base of the hardware (the original design was dumb).   I also solid-filled the deck with glass.   I used an L-shaped scraper I made to remove bad core far back between the glass layers.  I cleaned the cavity.  I stuffed in wads of glass mat soaked in epoxy to replace the core material.   I used packing tape to temporarily seal it, and to make a form.  I used plasticine volcanos as funnels to fill the remaining void space not occupied by glass mat.   This made the area of deck solid fibreglass.    I explain the procedure in detail in an earlier post, plasticine volcano might be a useful search term.)   One thing that helped me was the original design was really dumb, and there was end-grain balsa core in the areas I was fixing -- easily scooped out from between fibreglass layers with an L shaped scraper.  Most cored-deck boats use squares of marine plywood where there is load, and even rotten, these would be way harder to scrape out without removing at least one layer of glass.  The core area I was replacing was larger than the hole in the deck glass -- that is what the L-shaped scraper was for, to reach between the inner and outer glass around the repair.   After doing this, I used a thick later of silicone to stick down the backing and fronting plates, so, when loaded, the fasteners were digging into the sides of the stainless holes, load was transferred from the stainless to the deck in a larger area than the hardware.    Now, the hardware I was sealing down was not a winch or a cleat, so, yours might well have been under more lateral load.   If I were to imagine extending the method for heavy lateral loads, I might sleeve the holes in the now solidified deck with short lengths of 1/4 or 3/8" schedule 80 pipe and epoxy the sleeves in for no lateral movement.   Next step up from that, I might weld the sleeves to the fronting plate before putting it down -- essentially putting roots on my winch or cleat mounting plate.   If that does not work, it seems to me that area of the deck was just not made strong enough for that piece of hardware.     I hate glass work.  I far prefer to weld.  The idea of welding down deck hardware is very attractive.   But all my boats are glass.         I would like to learn from your experience James.  Can you offer any suggestions what caused the leaks?  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone | 34685|34639|2018-01-09 12:56:37|garyhlucas|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| Probably the greatest single threat to long distance cruisers are steel shipping containers floating inches out of the water, with massive steel corners exposed.  Something like 100,000 containers are lost overboard every year, until you realize there are more a billion of them in circulation!   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat.We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water!My $.02JamesSent from my iPhone| 34686|34639|2018-01-09 13:20:52|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|This is a good description of how frames increase the chance of holing, and tearing the hull plate,especially if the plating is made lighter, to compensate for the extra weight of frames.The place where shear is most likely is at the chine in  a single keeler, which is why I use doubler plates there, making the plate there just under  a half inch thick.When the guy with  te 1 1/2 inch thick plastic hull has cruised long enough ,he may start looking for  a steel boat on his own advanced wisdom.I dont discourage anyone from simply going cruising with what they have, unless it is extremly unfit for the job . I just list the advantages of steel . Eventually it sinks in o iots own.| 34687|34639|2018-01-09 13:22:25|bilgekeeldave|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|It's more like 10,000 shipping containers lost over the side each year, but when you consider that at any moment there are about six million containers at sea on ships, that is not too bad. Most sink to the bottom when they go over the side.I was a merchant mariner for 27 years, and I never saw a container go over the side, I've seen them break open, but I was never on a ship that lost one. The broken containers I saw had boring stuff inside,like onions or hides. A friend was on a ship that had a container torn open by the sea that was full of Heineken beer, I was never so lucky.| 34688|34639|2018-01-09 13:25:09|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| It only takes one, but a billion is an exaggeration.  There are about 17 million shipping containers.   https://www.billiebox.co.uk/facts-about-shipping-containers/ It is not just hitting the container that concerns me, it is it hitting me, in rough conditions, at night or with low visibility, propelled by the force of a wave, like a battering ram.   And shipping containers are silly-tough steel at least the one I own.   Apparently they are all some grade of Corten Steel.  I tried to drill a hole in it and it was really slow in comparison to even much thicker plates of A36 structural steel.    A small, thick-skinned steel boat has really high point strength compared to its mass driving the impact forces.  A small steel boat also has a really high point-wise strength compared to its area that the force of water might push on to increase impact forces.   Still the toughness of my shipping container and it solid steel corners gives me the impression even such a boat is still not entirely safe in the wrong incident.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 12:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Probably the greatest single threat to long distance cruisers are steel shipping containers floating inches out of the water, with massive steel corners exposed.  Something like 100,000 containers are lost overboard every year, until you realize there are more a billion of them in circulation!   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone | 34689|34671|2018-01-09 13:26:38|brentswain38|Re: [origamiboats] Re: Alex’s Boat being towed|Witsh one of you would do that.I cant because I am banned, for stating the obvious.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2070796360 #ygrps-yiv-2070796360ygrps-yiv-9521591 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}A loop of that video should be the animated GIF used in the poster's identity for posting on detractor threads, so every post, there is the video under their identity.   Sort of the honey badger don't care video of a steel boat being run aground.   Aground?  Don't care.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 4:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex’s Boat being towed  I've always told people my Swain boat is a tank of the sea, well now I know that a BS boat if given a gun turret could actually double as a tank.  Testimony to one real tuff design of a boat.  Try dragging a multimillion dollar carbon high end boat across a field with a truck.  That's real piece of mind when the going gets tough....Martin...(Prairie Maid)| 34690|34639|2018-01-09 13:45:29|brentswain38|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|After helping a friend do all that work, just to bed  down fittings on a plastic boat, Haidan said "I will never complain again about having to weld fittings down!"Welding fitings down can sometimes be done in under a minute.One way the British have reduced deck leaks on plastic boats, for decades, is to raise the fibereglas under stanchion bases, cleats ,handrails,  etc, so that water flowing past doesn't sit on the seals. You can  do this with an existing plastic boat, by cutting out fibreglass doublers from the many which litter our beaches, and glass epoxy them down on the outside, then bed your fittings on top of them. The epoxy glass connection  is far less likely to break away and leak, than the bedding on top of them,which the water can no longer sit against, as they are raised about a quarter inch . On a new boat ,one could easily and quickly use a router to recess the spots in the mold where fittings go on, leaving raised fibregals at those points.On this side of the pond , plastic boat builders have always been too lazy to do that.An allen wrench in a drill makes a good versionof the L shape you describe.How many years have your fittings been leak proof, Matt? I met a plastic boater on Read Island who said he always had to rebed all his every 3 years.  This is a rainy place.!---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2018567475 #ygrps-yiv-2018567475ygrps-yiv-1419409141 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}James wrote: >We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even >after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. After your experience, what do you attribute the leaks to? If hardware sat perfectly still then modern sealants should have been completely effective.   So I am guessing that the hardware might have been moving.   I can think of several possible reasons: - the holes through the deck were bigger than the fasteners, or - the fasteners were chewing a larger hole through the deck when loaded, possibly because - the deck was locally weak from rot in core or something.I have yet to experience a repeat in leaks after giving a piece of deck hardware my full attention.   In my case I would attribute that to two main factors:  That the boat has not spent a continuous year in the water and use since the work was done.   I used massive backing and fronting plates, 3/16" stainless, 10 times the area of the base of the hardware (the original design was dumb).   I also solid-filled the deck with glass.   I used an L-shaped scraper I made to remove bad core far back between the glass layers.  I cleaned the cavity.  I stuffed in wads of glass mat soaked in epoxy to replace the core material.   I used packing tape to temporarily seal it, and to make a form.  I used plasticine volcanos as funnels to fill the remaining void space not occupied by glass mat.   This made the area of deck solid fibreglass.    I explain the procedure in detail in an earlier post, plasticine volcano might be a useful search term.)   One thing that helped me was the original design was really dumb, and there was end-grain balsa core in the areas I was fixing -- easily scooped out from between fibreglass layers with an L shaped scraper.  Most cored-deck boats use squares of marine plywood where there is load, and even rotten, these would be way harder to scrape out without removing at least one layer of glass.  The core area I was replacing was larger than the hole in the deck glass -- that is what the L-shaped scraper was for, to reach between the inner and outer glass around the repair.   After doing this, I used a thick later of silicone to stick down the backing and fronting plates, so, when loaded, the fasteners were digging into the sides of the stainless holes, load was transferred from the stainless to the deck in a larger area than the hardware.    Now, the hardware I was sealing down was not a winch or a cleat, so, yours might well have been under more lateral load.  If I were to imagine extending the method for heavy lateral loads, I might sleeve the holes in the now solidified deck with short lengths of 1/4 or 3/8" schedule 80 pipe and epoxy the sleeves in for no lateral movement.   Next step up from that, I might weld the sleeves to the fronting plate before putting it down -- essentially putting roots on my winch or cleat mounting plate.   If that does not work, it seems to me that area of the deck was just not made strong enough for that piece of hardware.    I hate glass work.  I far prefer to weld.  The idea of welding down deck hardware is very attractive.   But all my boats are glass.         I would like to learn from your experience James.  Can you offer any suggestions what caused the leaks? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube  I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone| 34691|34639|2018-01-09 13:55:29|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|With so many electronic gadgets beng packed in styrofoam, I imagine they woud float a long time.Ditto a lot of other consumer goods.A couple from Conneticut I was rafted along side of  in Comox in 1983, while I was building a boat, had a 40 ft plastic boat.I invited them to come watch me pull the 36 together . They were not interested. After hitting a floating container off Costa Rica, and sinking quickly from a 4 ft hole in their hull, they suddenly took a keen interst in origami steel . Their boat was one of the much older, much thicker plastic hulls.I heard about one container breaking open and leaving the Washington and Oregon coasts littered  in sneakers. The radio talk shows were flooded with calls like"I have three size 12 lefts, if someone has a couple of size 10 rights."---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It's more like 10,000 shipping containers lost over the side each year, but when you consider that at any moment there are about six million containers at sea on ships, that is not too bad. Most sink to the bottom when they go over the side.I was a merchant mariner for 27 years, and I never saw a container go over the side, I've seen them break open, but I was never on a ship that lost one. The broken containers I saw had boring stuff inside,like onions or hides. A friend was on a ship that had a container torn open by the sea that was full of Heineken beer, I was never so lucky.| 34692|34639|2018-01-09 13:59:27|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|One of my 36 footers (Island Breeze) hit a sharp corner of  sunken barge at hull speed. It hit on the bow, about 6 inchers off the centreline. It only scratched the paint, no dents.Would have probably holed a 1/8th inch hull with frames.| 34693|34639|2018-01-09 14:18:37|Matt Malone|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| >An allen wrench in a drill makes a good version of the L shape you describe. I used something like that to get rid of foam fill in a boat.   Really effective.   For between deck-layer work, I made the tool with a squarer and sharper end like a wood chisel, or slick, to make scraping the underside of the glass easier, but you get the idea.   If I were to do it again for rotten plywood, I would make it like a tire iron above deck, and the same shape between the deck layers to get a better bite on tougher stuff.   A blacksmith's forge is really useful for making unique tools.   >How many years have your fittings been leak proof, Matt? >I met a plastic boater on Read Island who said he always had to rebed all his every 3 years.  >This is a rainy place.! About 10 years sitting on its trailer and occasional use some years, like most boats in Ontario, and a few years with 3 or 4 times typical Ontario use. Ontario gets about 30-34 inches of precipitation a year, including 5-8 feet of snow where it is stored, which invariably turns to ice on the deck no matter how well tarped. The bilge has been dust dry for more than a decade, on a 1971 boat.   I agree having a thickness of fibreglass on the outside elevating the hardware is a good approach.   I also used a thick later on silicone, like 3/16", and let it set before bolting anything down.  I feel the same lateral displacement on a greater thickness of silicone allows less shear stress on the silicone, and therefore it is less likely to debond from the deck or fronting plate, leaving nowhere for water to get in.   Elevating fibreglass is better, but I would still use thick silicone as well.   I left the fronting plate siliconed to the deck for a week in the hot sun to make sure it was cured through before bolting anything. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 1:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     After helping a friend do all that work, just to bed  down fittings on a plastic boat, Haidan said "I will never complain again about having to weld fittings down!" Welding fitings down can sometimes be done in under a minute. One way the British have reduced deck leaks on plastic boats, for decades, is to raise the fibereglas under stanchion bases, cleats ,handrails,  etc, so that water flowing past doesn't sit on the seals.  You can  do this with an existing plastic boat, by cutting out fibreglass doublers from the many which litter our beaches, and glass epoxy them down on the outside, then bed your fittings on top of them. The epoxy glass connection  is far less likely to break away and leak, than the bedding on top of them,which the water can no longer sit against, as they are raised about a quarter inch . On a new boat ,one could easily and quickly use a router to recess the spots in the mold where fittings go on, leaving raised fibregals at those points. On this side of the pond , plastic boat builders have always been too lazy to do that. An allen wrench in a drill makes a good versionof the L shape you describe. How many years have your fittings been leak proof, Matt? I met a plastic boater on Read Island who said he always had to rebed all his every 3 years.   This is a rainy place.! ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : James wrote: >We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even >after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. After your experience, what do you attribute the leaks to? If hardware sat perfectly still then modern sealants should have been completely effective.   So I am guessing that the hardware might have been moving.   I can think of several possible reasons:  - the holes through the deck were bigger than the fasteners, or  - the fasteners were chewing a larger hole through the deck when loaded, possibly because  - the deck was locally weak from rot in core or something. I have yet to experience a repeat in leaks after giving a piece of deck hardware my full attention.   In my case I would attribute that to two main factors:  That the boat has not spent a continuous year in the water and use since the work was done.   I used massive backing and fronting plates, 3/16" stainless, 10 times the area of the base of the hardware (the original design was dumb).   I also solid-filled the deck with glass.   I used an L-shaped scraper I made to remove bad core far back between the glass layers.  I cleaned the cavity.  I stuffed in wads of glass mat soaked in epoxy to replace the core material.   I used packing tape to temporarily seal it, and to make a form.  I used plasticine volcanos as funnels to fill the remaining void space not occupied by glass mat.   This made the area of deck solid fibreglass.    I explain the procedure in detail in an earlier post, plasticine volcano might be a useful search term.)   One thing that helped me was the original design was really dumb, and there was end-grain balsa core in the areas I was fixing -- easily scooped out from between fibreglass layers with an L shaped scraper.  Most cored-deck boats use squares of marine plywood where there is load, and even rotten, these would be way harder to scrape out without removing at least one layer of glass.  The core area I was replacing was larger than the hole in the deck glass -- that is what the L-shaped scraper was for, to reach between the inner and outer glass around the repair.   After doing this, I used a thick later of silicone to stick down the backing and fronting plates, so, when loaded, the fasteners were digging into the sides of the stainless holes, load was transferred from the stainless to the deck in a larger area than the hardware.    Now, the hardware I was sealing down was not a winch or a cleat, so, yours might well have been under more lateral load.   If I were to imagine extending the method for heavy lateral loads, I might sleeve the holes in the now solidified deck with short lengths of 1/4 or 3/8" schedule 80 pipe and epoxy the sleeves in for no lateral movement.   Next step up from that, I might weld the sleeves to the fronting plate before putting it down -- essentially putting roots on my winch or cleat mounting plate.   If that does not work, it seems to me that area of the deck was just not made strong enough for that piece of hardware.     I hate glass work.  I far prefer to weld.  The idea of welding down deck hardware is very attractive.   But all my boats are glass.         I would like to learn from your experience James.  Can you offer any suggestions what caused the leaks?  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone | 34694|34639|2018-01-09 14:36:09|bilgekeeldave|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|Not all containers are made of all steel, many have fiberglass sides and top, though they all have steel frames.| 34695|34639|2018-01-09 15:39:52|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|In my opinion, the biggest single threat to a boat is not what happens in the middle of the ocean.  It is dragging anchor and ending up on the rocks one night.| 34696|34639|2018-01-09 15:48:29|opuspaul|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate.| 34697|34639|2018-01-09 18:07:23|mountain man|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| Do you think it would be( the butyl sealant) better than Sikaflex to seal a fiberglass cabin top/pilothouse wich is bolted to a steel deck On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate. | 34698|34639|2018-01-09 18:45:41|Maxime Camirand|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|If you have a steel hull, I can't imagine that container making such a big hole that you'd sink immediately. You're aboard, and you can presumably do something about it. Maybe if the hole was completely inaccessible from the inside, and the weather was so bad that you couldn't do anything from the outside, not even slip a tarp over it with lines running under the hull... On 10 January 2018 at 02:25, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   It only takes one, but a billion is an exaggeration.  There are about 17 million shipping containers.   https://www.billiebox.co.uk/ facts-about-shipping- containers/ It is not just hitting the container that concerns me, it is it hitting me, in rough conditions, at night or with low visibility, propelled by the force of a wave, like a battering ram.   And shipping containers are silly-tough steel at least the one I own.   Apparently they are all some grade of Corten Steel.  I tried to drill a hole in it and it was really slow in comparison to even much thicker plates of A36 structural steel.    A small, thick-skinned steel boat has really high point strength compared to its mass driving the impact forces.  A small steel boat also has a really high point-wise strength compared to its area that the force of water might push on to increase impact forces.   Still the toughness of my shipping container and it solid steel corners gives me the impression even such a boat is still not entirely safe in the wrong incident.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 12:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     Probably the greatest single threat to long distance cruisers are steel shipping containers floating inches out of the water, with massive steel corners exposed.  Something like 100,000 containers are lost overboard every year, until you realize there are more a billion of them in circulation!   From: mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     I would not touch another old plastic boat to rebuild and take cruising! We just did a year on a Catalina 27 with the longest crossing being 18 hours. We did it with 3 other boats and would not have done it on our own even after the major rebuild that I did on the boat. We were constantly dealing with leaking deck hardware even after doing a textbook re-sealing job on all deck hardware. While sailing up the Chesapeake Bay I noticed something funny in the water ahead. The water was dead calm and thank god it was! Over a 5 mile distance we counted 8-45gallon Steel drums floating with only an inch out of the water. That would not have been fun to hit. I would sooner do the maintenance to a steel boat then bail water or tread water! My $.02 James Sent from my iPhone | 34699|34639|2018-01-10 00:57:24|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|Spray foam makes an already made in place, gasket, altho, as Island Breeze and other steel boats  have demostrated, even at hull speed ,there is very little chance of a container punching any leak in 3/16th plate.| 34700|34639|2018-01-10 10:53:51|bilgekeeldave|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all. A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed.| 34701|34639|2018-01-10 18:05:52|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|It is bloody hard to put a hole through kevlar with a one off impact.   That is why they use it in bullet proof vests.  The problem is that with repeated blows, any underlying structure delaminates and eventually breaks apart. Kevlar is not used as often as it should because it is very expensive.  If it is added to a boat, they tend to go with fewer layers of something else.  I had a friend sink in a Hunter Vision.  It had a layer of Kevlar but it was so lightly built in all other respects I likened it to a plastic bag propped open with cardboard.  It went on a reef and twisted around so much that it's keel eventually fell off.  It reminds me of this.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqMTo be fair, there have been some great fiberglass boats.  I know of a 36 yr old Airex cored fiberglass boat in NZ that has done 3 circumnavigations and still looks like new.   Great Britain II is probably one of the most traveled yachts in history.  I believe it has done seven circumnavigations with at least 50 transatlantic crossings.  It was also built many years ago using low tech foam core with regular fiberglass.  http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Volvo-Legends--Great-Britain-II---Her-builders-story/-90648You can't say that these boats haven't got the job done and haven't been a success.   Having said that, if they ground repeatedly for a month on a reef,  I don't think there would be much left.   With gps/satellite epirbs, most people don't care.   If something goes wrong, they just ask for rescue and then try to claim the insurance.    For amateur boat builders, building to a high standard/strength with composite construction would cost a fortune.   A lot of one-off boats in NZ are built very lightly using three layers of cold molded wood with a thin layer of glass on top.   They normally don't do very well when they hit the rocks.   For one off construction, you can't beat steel or aluminum.  I would only go composite if I was building a light weight multihull but I am not that crazy just yet.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all. A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed.| 34702|34639|2018-01-11 09:21:18|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| Kevlar is more prone to osmosis than glass fibers.   Yes, kevlar resists cutting, but, its matrix material can completely fail.   Where one might had a hole, instead one might have something between a large rapidly-weeping wound and an ordinary cloth covering a hole -- water pouring through.    It can still completely fail too and leave a hole.  Kevlar is really good where lighter weight is desired, like personal ballistic vests and knife armor.   Its layup complexity and the mold are two things that one avoids in steel, particularly with origami.   Its cost is just prohibitive compared to steel.   While it would be much better against bullets -- which has use in landing craft -- I think for repeatedly bumping into rocks, with a construct-from-new boat, steel is your better choice.   Yes, many cored fibreglass boats have gone far.  Yes, the EPIRB has changed many things.  There are few places in the world where one can expect to be in a lift raft for more than 24 hours without at least a supplies drop.    It is a contradiction of the commons problem.   People choosing more robust boats is not keeping other people from choosing fibreglass and pulling their EPIRB when they get in trouble.   Search and rescue is expensive.   At present, I know of no regulation that would prevent one from getting in a boat and heading off-shore, provided one did not take paying passengers.   Do we really want that to change?   It would be better if people kept to areas where their boats were better suited, and exercised more caution, and if they had more robust boats, and sailed them better.   Because if not there might be pay-from-the-first rescue policies (back country helicopter rescues I believe are pay from the second rescue) or regulations and hassle just to go beyond a few miles off shore.   It is a cost countries may become unwilling to put on their residents who look at going out in a boat as stupid, selfish and unnecessary.   The EPIRB and its ubiquitous use might eventually cause all sailors more hassle every day.   The only safety use of a cored hull boat is if the core is so thick as to make the boat unsinkable. Matt  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     It is bloody hard to put a hole through kevlar with a one off impact.   That is why they use it in bullet proof vests.  The problem is that with repeated blows, any underlying structure delaminates and eventually breaks apart. Kevlar is not used as often as it should because it is very expensive.  If it is added to a boat, they tend to go with fewer layers of something else.  I had a friend sink in a Hunter Vision.  It had a layer of Kevlar but it was so lightly built in all other respects I likened it to a plastic bag propped open with cardboard.  It went on a reef and twisted around so much that it's keel eventually fell off.  It reminds me of this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM Clarke and Dawe - The Front Fell Off www.youtube.com http://www.mrjohnclarke.com "Bob Collins, Australian Senator" Air date: 26/07/1991 Can be purchased on "Clarke & Dawe -The Full Catastrophe DVD Boxed Set" Personally ... To be fair, there have been some great fiberglass boats.  I know of a 36 yr old Airex cored fiberglass boat in NZ that has done 3 circumnavigations and still looks like new.   Great Britain II is probably one of the most traveled yachts in history.  I believe it has done seven circumnavigations with at least 50 transatlantic crossings.  It was also built many years ago using low tech foam core with regular fiberglass.  http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Volvo-Legends--Great-Britain-II---Her-builders-story/-90648 Volvo Legends- Great Britain II - Her builder's story www.sail-world.com The ketch rigged Great Britain II was the first boat to finish in the first Whitbread Round the World Race which started in September 1973. Derek Kelsall was the builder of the 78ft maxi designed by Alan Gurney and skippered by Chay Blyth writes to give his perspective of how the foam sandwich ketch was constructed. She went on to compete in five round the world races: You can't say that these boats haven't got the job done and haven't been a success.   Having said that, if they ground repeatedly for a month on a reef,  I don't think there would be much left.   With gps/satellite epirbs, most people don't care.   If something goes wrong, they just ask for rescue and then try to claim the insurance.    For amateur boat builders, building to a high standard/strength with composite construction would cost a fortune.   A lot of one-off boats in NZ are built very lightly using three layers of cold molded wood with a thin layer of glass on top.   They normally don't do very well when they hit the rocks.   For one off construction, you can't beat steel or aluminum.  I would only go composite if I was building a light weight multihull but I am not that crazy just yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all.  A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed. | 34703|34639|2018-01-11 17:06:08|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|In vast areas of the South Pacific one can't expect outside help for many days, maybe weeks.Helicoters don't fly anywhere near that far.When the steel for a 36 was around $3 K the fibreglass materials for such a hull and decks was around $25KThe gap is much wider now ,not counting the mold, which Perry said was $300K.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Kevlar is more prone to osmosis than glass fibers.   Yes, kevlar resists cutting, but, its matrix material can completely fail.   Where one might had a hole, instead one might have something between a large rapidly-weeping wound and an ordinary cloth covering a hole -- water pouring through.    It can still completely fail too and leave a hole.  Kevlar is really good where lighter weight is desired, like personal ballistic vests and knife armor.   Its layup complexity and the mold are two things that one avoids in steel, particularly with origami.   Its cost is just prohibitive compared to steel.   While it would be much better against bullets -- which has use in landing craft -- I think for repeatedly bumping into rocks, with a construct-from-new boat, steel is your better choice.   Yes, many cored fibreglass boats have gone far.  Yes, the EPIRB has changed many things.  There are few places in the world where one can expect to be in a lift raft for more than 24 hours without at least a supplies drop.    It is a contradiction of the commons problem.   People choosing more robust boats is not keeping other people from choosing fibreglass and pulling their EPIRB when they get in trouble.   Search and rescue is expensive.   At present, I know of no regulation that would prevent one from getting in a boat and heading off-shore, provided one did not take paying passengers.   Do we really want that to change?   It would be better if people kept to areas where their boats were better suited, and exercised more caution, and if they had more robust boats, and sailed them better.   Because if not there might be pay-from-the-first rescue policies (back country helicopter rescues I believe are pay from the second rescue) or regulations and hassle just to go beyond a few miles off shore.   It is a cost countries may become unwilling to put on their residents who look at going out in a boat as stupid, selfish and unnecessary.   The EPIRB and its ubiquitous use might eventually cause all sailors more hassle every day.   The only safety use of a cored hull boat is if the core is so thick as to make the boat unsinkable. Matt  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     It is bloody hard to put a hole through kevlar with a one off impact.   That is why they use it in bullet proof vests.  The problem is that with repeated blows, any underlying structure delaminates and eventually breaks apart. Kevlar is not used as often as it should because it is very expensive.  If it is added to a boat, they tend to go with fewer layers of something else.  I had a friend sink in a Hunter Vision.  It had a layer of Kevlar but it was so lightly built in all other respects I likened it to a plastic bag propped open with cardboard.  It went on a reef and twisted around so much that it's keel eventually fell off.  It reminds me of this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM Clarke and Dawe - The Front Fell Off www.youtube.com http://www.mrjohnclarke.com "Bob Collins, Australian Senator" Air date: 26/07/1991 Can be purchased on "Clarke & Dawe -The Full Catastrophe DVD Boxed Set" Personally ... To be fair, there have been some great fiberglass boats.  I know of a 36 yr old Airex cored fiberglass boat in NZ that has done 3 circumnavigations and still looks like new.   Great Britain II is probably one of the most traveled yachts in history.  I believe it has done seven circumnavigations with at least 50 transatlantic crossings.  It was also built many years ago using low tech foam core with regular fiberglass.  http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Volvo-Legends--Great-Britain-II---Her-builders-story/-90648 Volvo Legends- Great Britain II - Her builder's story www.sail-world.com The ketch rigged Great Britain II was the first boat to finish in the first Whitbread Round the World Race which started in September 1973. Derek Kelsall was the builder of the 78ft maxi designed by Alan Gurney and skippered by Chay Blyth writes to give his perspective of how the foam sandwich ketch was constructed. She went on to compete in five round the world races: You can't say that these boats haven't got the job done and haven't been a success.   Having said that, if they ground repeatedly for a month on a reef,  I don't think there would be much left.   With gps/satellite epirbs, most people don't care.   If something goes wrong, they just ask for rescue and then try to claim the insurance.    For amateur boat builders, building to a high standard/strength with composite construction would cost a fortune.   A lot of one-off boats in NZ are built very lightly using three layers of cold molded wood with a thin layer of glass on top.   They normally don't do very well when they hit the rocks.   For one off construction, you can't beat steel or aluminum.  I would only go composite if I was building a light weight multihull but I am not that crazy just yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all.  A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed. | 34704|34639|2018-01-11 17:25:08|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| This is true, however, my impression is after the EPIRB is triggered, local shipping is contacted to try to find someone who will divert.   Please correct me if I am wrong on that.   Not withstanding a reluctance to cooperate, 24 hours is quite a distance for even a small freighter or medium sized fishing boat -- maybe 300 or 350 miles.   It would be challenging to be 24 hours away from everyone.   One could find a more remote spot, but it is unlikely one would AND one runs into entirely unexpected trouble at the same time.   Most dangerous floating cargo is likely to have sunk or pulled into a gyre before getting too far off the shipping lanes.  Weather probabilities are recorded in the pilot charts.  Everything else is either charted, or there are specific warnings on the charts about unsurveyed areas.   Ordinary prudent seamanship should weigh all risks including the risk of waiting a week for help should anything go wrong on the planned route.  Last I heard $50-75K as the estimate for a new, bare solid hull in the 40-50 foot range and $500K+ for the completed boat.  I have only ever once found a company in the EU making production solid glass hull motor-sailers recently, and I have completely forgotten their name and everything about them.   Their boats look like Antarctica boats, completely enclosed bridge with back-angled windows with lots of wipers.   I quickly decided I could subcontract the bulk of the work on an origami more cheaply than that.      Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 5:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     In vast areas of the South Pacific one can't expect outside help for many days, maybe weeks. Helicoters don't fly anywhere near that far. When the steel for a 36 was around $3 K the fibreglass materials for such a hull and decks was around $25K The gap is much wider now ,not counting the mold, which Perry said was $300K. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Kevlar is more prone to osmosis than glass fibers.   Yes, kevlar resists cutting, but, its matrix material can completely fail.   Where one might had a hole, instead one might have something between a large rapidly-weeping wound and an ordinary cloth covering a hole -- water pouring through.    It can still completely fail too and leave a hole.  Kevlar is really good where lighter weight is desired, like personal ballistic vests and knife armor.   Its layup complexity and the mold are two things that one avoids in steel, particularly with origami.   Its cost is just prohibitive compared to steel.   While it would be much better against bullets -- which has use in landing craft -- I think for repeatedly bumping into rocks, with a construct-from-new boat, steel is your better choice.   Yes, many cored fibreglass boats have gone far.  Yes, the EPIRB has changed many things.  There are few places in the world where one can expect to be in a lift raft for more than 24 hours without at least a supplies drop.    It is a contradiction of the commons problem.   People choosing more robust boats is not keeping other people from choosing fibreglass and pulling their EPIRB when they get in trouble.   Search and rescue is expensive.   At present, I know of no regulation that would prevent one from getting in a boat and heading off-shore, provided one did not take paying passengers.   Do we really want that to change?   It would be better if people kept to areas where their boats were better suited, and exercised more caution, and if they had more robust boats, and sailed them better.   Because if not there might be pay-from-the-first rescue policies (back country helicopter rescues I believe are pay from the second rescue) or regulations and hassle just to go beyond a few miles off shore.   It is a cost countries may become unwilling to put on their residents who look at going out in a boat as stupid, selfish and unnecessary.   The EPIRB and its ubiquitous use might eventually cause all sailors more hassle every day.   The only safety use of a cored hull boat is if the core is so thick as to make the boat unsinkable. Matt  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     It is bloody hard to put a hole through kevlar with a one off impact.   That is why they use it in bullet proof vests.  The problem is that with repeated blows, any underlying structure delaminates and eventually breaks apart. Kevlar is not used as often as it should because it is very expensive.  If it is added to a boat, they tend to go with fewer layers of something else.  I had a friend sink in a Hunter Vision.  It had a layer of Kevlar but it was so lightly built in all other respects I likened it to a plastic bag propped open with cardboard.  It went on a reef and twisted around so much that it's keel eventually fell off.  It reminds me of this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM Clarke and Dawe - The Front Fell Off www.youtube.com http://www.mrjohnclarke.com "Bob Collins, Australian Senator" Air date: 26/07/1991 Can be purchased on "Clarke & Dawe -The Full Catastrophe DVD Boxed Set" Personally ... Clarke and Dawe - The Front Fell Off www.youtube.com http://www.mrjohnclarke.com "Bob Collins, Australian Senator" Air date: 26/07/1991 Can be purchased on "Clarke & Dawe -The Full Catastrophe DVD Boxed Set" Personally ... To be fair, there have been some great fiberglass boats.  I know of a 36 yr old Airex cored fiberglass boat in NZ that has done 3 circumnavigations and still looks like new.   Great Britain II is probably one of the most traveled yachts in history.  I believe it has done seven circumnavigations with at least 50 transatlantic crossings.  It was also built many years ago using low tech foam core with regular fiberglass.  http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Volvo-Legends--Great-Britain-II---Her-builders-story/-90648 Volvo Legends- Great Britain II - Her builder's story www.sail-world.com The ketch rigged Great Britain II was the first boat to finish in the first Whitbread Round the World Race which started in September 1973. Derek Kelsall was the builder of the 78ft maxi designed by Alan Gurney and skippered by Chay Blyth writes to give his perspective of how the foam sandwich ketch was constructed. She went on to compete in five round the world races: You can't say that these boats haven't got the job done and haven't been a success.   Having said that, if they ground repeatedly for a month on a reef,  I don't think there would be much left.   With gps/satellite epirbs, most people don't care.   If something goes wrong, they just ask for rescue and then try to claim the insurance.    For amateur boat builders, building to a high standard/strength with composite construction would cost a fortune.   A lot of one-off boats in NZ are built very lightly using three layers of cold molded wood with a thin layer of glass on top.   They normally don't do very well when they hit the rocks.   For one off construction, you can't beat steel or aluminum.  I would only go composite if I was building a light weight multihull but I am not that crazy just yet. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all.  A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed. | 34705|34639|2018-01-11 19:29:18|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 5:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     In vast areas of the South Pacific one can't expect outside help for many days, maybe weeks. Helicoters don't fly anywhere near that far. When the steel for a 36 was around $3 K the fibreglass materials for such a hull and decks was around $25K The gap is much wider now ,not counting the mold, which Perry said was $300K. much that it's keel eventually fell off.  It reminds me of this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM Clarke and Dawe - The Front Fell Off www.youtube.com http://www.mrjohnclarke.com "Bob Collins, Australian Senator" Air date: 26/07/1991 Can be purchased on "Clarke & Dawe -The Full Catastrophe DVD Boxed Set" Personally ... Clarke and Dawe - The Front Fell Off www.youtube.com http://www.mrjohnclarke.com "Bob Collins, Australian Senator" Air date: 26/07/1991 Can be purchased on "Clarke & Dawe -The Full Catastrophe DVD Boxed Set" Personally ... We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all.  A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed. | 34706|34639|2018-01-11 19:53:43|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|It is interesting to go to www.marinetraffic.com to see where the ships are really traveling.    If you trigger an epirb in the SW Pacific, chances are you will get an Orion reconnaissance airplane from the NZ Airforce over your position as soon as possible.  They will coordinate and do what necessary to get a ship to divert to your position.  In popular cruising grounds with regular shipping routes (NZ, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji) it should be less than a day or two.  I have heard of them flying as far north as Kiribas to search for small island fishing boats. RCCNZ covers a huge area.   See page 9.https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/about/what-we-do/safety-and-response/RCCNZ/documents/Rescue-Coordination-Centre-New-Zealand-information-leaflet.pdfIf you are really in trouble and there is no ship close by, they will drop you a life raft.   Once you call them or trigger an epirb, they will do everything possible to convince you to abandon your boat.  They are not there to help you keep your boat afloat or render assistance.  All they want to do is pluck you off as soon as possible.   | 34707|34639|2018-01-11 19:54:20|Matt Malone|The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping cont| There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing.   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34708|34639|2018-01-11 20:27:35|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube| I saw some experiments where a 3/4" thick solid fibreglass plate was being tested as a form of armor where it was subjected to a blast in a military experiment.   It was really tough.   It just bounced back with no damage at all.   Naturally, 3/4" of steel would do better, but, would 3/16" steel?    The following is not exactly the same test, but, the mere fact that solid fiberglass panels are used for bullet-proofing should give one cause to reconsider the toughness of a solid glass boat.   http://www.bulldogdirect.com/fiberglass-armor-panels/ Fiberglass Armor Panels | Bulldog Direct Protective Systems www.bulldogdirect.com Our Fiberglass Ballistic Armor panels are manufactured using multiple layers of fiberglass cloth or woven roving that are bonded together with a resin 1.375 inches is good against a 30-06 round or 3 shots from an AK-47.   Wow, I would not have expected that.    My gut says 3/16" of ordinary steel would not stop a 30-06.    It is not immediately clear to me what would happen if a really thick, solid boat had an impact or various types.   I can easily image an ugly gouge, and work to fix it, but, I am not so sure about it making a hole requiring any particular response immediately in as many cases as you imagine.   If there were a hole, it seems there is still a likelihood the hole would be small enough to do something temporary with -- as it, it is likely to be recoverable.   It would be nothing like the extensive essentially unrepairable core damage one would get in a crap cored-glass boat, whether it was holed or not.    I can confidently say an 11 gauge boat would not pass any of these tests, the rock, the military experiment I saw, or a bullet.   In fact, I have a body-alignment hammer that I am quite sure I could put the pointy end well through an 11 gauge plate: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pQo4zdxFoUY/maxresdefault.jpg I think there is even a chance I could put a hole in 11 gauge plate with a hatchet.   And that is what we are talking about, the man's 11-gauge boat.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of bilgekeeldave@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 10:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Sail boat U tube     We ran Quaranta y Dos ( 30 ft BS, twin keels) into a rock right at the center of the bow about two feet below the waterline.We came to a dead stop from 5 knots. It made a fist sized dent in the hull, That was all.  A boat made of anything but steel, would have been holed. | 34709|34709|2018-01-11 20:31:26|opuspaul|Marine traffic|www.marinetraffic.com is a very good resource.   I would take a screen shot of my sailing area before I head offshore.  It is surprising where boats are located.  I would have thought that the eastern Pacific was empty but the area east of Tahiti seems to be widely littered with fishing boats.  I can't see anything on a chart but the area around  2 deg 47 south and 111 deg 47 west has an incredibly dense cluster of fishing boats.  If you were sailing near or through that area, you surely would want to avoid it.  The fish must not have a chance.http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-112.1/centery:-3.2/zoom:8I crewed on a boat from Malaysia to Cochin, India.   The shipping traffic around the tip of Sri Lanka and India was a nightmare even though we had 4 people on board to look out.   Other places like the west side of  the Philippines and the north west coast of Australia get far more shipping than I ever would have expected.     Sailing the area around Singapore and the straights of Malacca is supposed to be nerve racking.   You can see why.  I love having an AIS system but in some of these areas you would have to turn the audible alarm off.  I think it would be constantly going off.| 34710|34639|2018-01-11 20:46:39|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|One of the big problems with fiberglass on a boat that is grounded is not the initial impact but the constant grinding and scrubbing action of a boat working back and forth in the waves.  If each scrub of the boat breaks or sands through one small strand of glass, it won't take very many hours for it to wear through. | 34711|34709|2018-01-11 20:55:04|Matt Malone|Re: Marine traffic| That is an excellent site and your suggestion to check it before planning a route is an excellent one.   The map might also be good for giving one an idea how far one might have to divert off-shore to get less traffic in certain areas.  Note the big empty area off the coast of Somalia.   Note the neat line that ships form going toward and away from the Gulf of Aden.   It is odd, even near North America, there are holes with no ships -- between Tampa and Pensacola for instance.   There has to be a spot there where one is 100 miles from the nearest AIS ship.   Another huge hole at N43, W164... One would be closer to ships where MH370 went down.   This is a really fascinating website, thank you for linking it.   That cluster of boats you point out seems to be just east of a ridge on the ocean floor, where the equatorial current is west to east.   There might be an upwelling of deep ocean water there.  Squid? if I am been paying attention to my nature documentaries. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 8:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Marine traffic     www.marinetraffic.com is a very good resource.   I would take a screen shot of my sailing area before I head offshore.  It is surprising where boats are located.  I would have thought that the eastern Pacific was empty but the area east of Tahiti seems to be widely littered with fishing boats.  I can't see anything on a chart but the area around  2 deg 47 south and 111 deg 47 west has an incredibly dense cluster of fishing boats.  If you were sailing near or through that area, you surely would want to avoid it.  The fish must not have a chance. http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-112.1/centery:-3.2/zoom:8 MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic www.marinetraffic.com MarineTraffic Live Ships Map. Discover information and vessel positions for vessels around the world. Search the MarineTraffic ships database of more than 550000 active and decommissioned vessels. Search for popular ships globally. Find locations of ports and ships using the near Real Time ships map. View vessel details and ship photos. I crewed on a boat from Malaysia to Cochin, India.   The shipping traffic around the tip of Sri Lanka and India was a nightmare even though we had 4 people on board to look out.   Other places like the west side of  the Philippines and the north west coast of Australia get far more shipping than I ever would have expected.     Sailing the area around Singapore and the straights of Malacca is supposed to be nerve racking.   You can see why.  I love having an AIS system but in some of these areas you would have to turn the audible alarm off.  I think it would be constantly going off. | 34712|34709|2018-01-11 21:57:24|opuspaul|Re: Marine traffic|I have noticed over the last year or two that a lot of the ships are now being picked up direct to satellite.   Having said that, a lot of the smaller boats don't have AIS.   When I sailed into Cochin, I could see probably 100 different lights at any one time.  Most of them were local fishing boats.    It was a very long night crawling through them all at about 3 to 5 knots.   We almost T-boned and  ran over one that only had small lantern.  I only saw them because one of the guys on board decided to light a cigarette.  I think in the future, they will make us all have an AIS tranceiver.   Their excuse will be drugs/homeland security/safety etc.    Big brother keeps getting bigger.   Places like Australia require you to call or email 24 hours before approaching a coast.  If you tell them you don't have a radio or email on board, they will just look at you with a blank stare.  It is beyond their comprehension.   My friends were sailing there and a safety inspector came on board and insisted they see the anchor.  When they told him to look at the two up on the bow rollers, he was happy and able to check his box on his sheet.   It makes me insane to think that somebody with such a small brain could have the authority to tell me if my boat is safe or not.   The world is being run by mental midgets.| 34713|34639|2018-01-12 00:12:40|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|Plucking you off can be extremely dangeous, far more so than sticking with a boat which is still useable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It is interesting to go to www.marinetraffic.com to see where the ships are really traveling.    If you trigger an epirb in the SW Pacific, chances are you will get an Orion reconnaissance airplane from the NZ Airforce over your position as soon as possible.  They will coordinate and do what necessary to get a ship to divert to your position.  In popular cruising grounds with regular shipping routes (NZ, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji) it should be less than a day or two.  I have heard of them flying as far north as Kiribas to search for small island fishing boats. RCCNZ covers a huge area.   See page 9.https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/about/what-we-do/safety-and-response/RCCNZ/documents/Rescue-Coordination-Centre-New-Zealand-information-leaflet.pdfIf you are really in trouble and there is no ship close by, they will drop you a life raft.   Once you call them or trigger an epirb, they will do everything possible to convince you to abandon your boat.  They are not there to help you keep your boat afloat or render assistance.  All they want to do is pluck you off as soon as possible.   | 34714|34639|2018-01-12 00:27:28|brentswain38|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would.Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside.Reality is far more accurate than theory.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-552137862 #ygrps-yiv-552137862ygrps-yiv-1580171123 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.   So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.   It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing.   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt| 34715|34639|2018-01-12 00:34:10|brentswain38|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|As you have pointed out the high impact, concentrated in a very tiny area of impact is very different from a low speed heavy impact ,spread over a bigger area. 3/4 inch plastic boats dont survive 16 days pounding in big surf on a Baja lee shore ,nor pounding  accross 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, then being dragged back accross it in the same surf, by a tug.Nor do they remain intact and floatable afer ten years on a Tuamotu reef as Trismus did. Usually they break up in minutes in those conditions, which completely disproves all theories to the contrary| 34716|34709|2018-01-12 00:35:21|brentswain38|Re: Marine traffic|I wonder if you could pick that up at sea witha ham radio and winlink.| 34717|34717|2018-01-12 00:46:46|brentswain38|Night vision|I just did some interesting research on night vision.Seems gen2 is a huge improvement  over  gen1Gen3 is only a slight improvement on  gen2.Then, they mentioned digital, almost as god as gen2 ,but much cheaper ,and immune from having anything fried by a flash of bright light. Lots of really cheap ones from China on Ebay .Sure glad I didn't buy the FLIR Scout!The image they showed for the Scout was shapeless blobs; terrible optics, and far more expensive than digital IR, which are as low as $100US compared to $800CDN for their bottom of the line "Scout. FLIR"The flir Scout uses a USB charger on an internal battery ,which, when it quits ,makes the unit useless.I have had too many electronic gadgets rendered useles that way .Give me AA batteries any time!| 34718|34639|2018-01-12 08:53:33|Matt Malone|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | I was supposing a shipping container with a few large pieces of cast industrial machinery, half full of water, half ullage. Absolutely correct, if it is a shipping container full of toys in sealed plastic, that average less dense than water, and one would have to assume the rest of the container is nearly full of water, almost no ullage, then there is virtually no slosh effect - the 4th effect I talked about.   Sure there is a lot of cargo from toys to cabbages that would fit this category. Hitting a mostly submerged shipping container full of cabbages or toys would still be like running a dump truck into a fully loaded railway grain car.  I think that is a useful mental image to keep in mind to encourage prudence, no matter the boat's construction. The maximum cargo weight in a container is controlled by the strength of the floor.  It varies with the container, but it is 25-30 tons, much less than 74 tons of water displacement.  So, to sink low in the water, a container must be at least half full of water. Virtually every container filled to max weight with iron products, be it CNC equipment, driveshafts, or machine screws will be in this category. That is far from just theory, but it is only a fraction of containers.   Is it Russian roulette?   Will it be like a railway grain car, or two oil tanker cars? I think the dump truck vs two oil tanker rail cars is a useful mental image for a cruiser to keep in mind if they are inclined to believe any boat is unsinkable.  Boats vs rock is like dump truck vs bridge abutment, only, one can be pretty sure the speed of the rock is zero, so the closing speed is all about boat speed over which the pilot has more direct control.  Prudence is rewarded. I am not running down origamis vs framed boats with thinner skin.  I am just trying to keep expectations realistic no matter how thick the steel.  Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 00:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would. Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside. Reality is far more accurate than theory. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing.   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34719|34639|2018-01-12 09:40:32|Maxime Camirand|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. On 12 January 2018 at 21:53, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I was supposing a shipping container with a few large pieces of cast industrial machinery, half full of water, half ullage. Absolutely correct, if it is a shipping container full of toys in sealed plastic, that average less dense than water, and one would have to assume the rest of the container is nearly full of water, almost no ullage, then there is virtually no slosh effect - the 4th effect I talked about.   Sure there is a lot of cargo from toys to cabbages that would fit this category. Hitting a mostly submerged shipping container full of cabbages or toys would still be like running a dump truck into a fully loaded railway grain car.  I think that is a useful mental image to keep in mind to encourage prudence, no matter the boat's construction. The maximum cargo weight in a container is controlled by the strength of the floor.  It varies with the container, but it is 25-30 tons, much less than 74 tons of water displacement.  So, to sink low in the water, a container must be at least half full of water. Virtually every container filled to max weight with iron products, be it CNC equipment, driveshafts, or machine screws will be in this category. That is far from just theory, but it is only a fraction of containers.   Is it Russian roulette?   Will it be like a railway grain car, or two oil tanker cars? I think the dump truck vs two oil tanker rail cars is a useful mental image for a cruiser to keep in mind if they are inclined to believe any boat is unsinkable.  Boats vs rock is like dump truck vs bridge abutment, only, one can be pretty sure the speed of the rock is zero, so the closing speed is all about boat speed over which the pilot has more direct control.  Prudence is rewarded. I am not running down origamis vs framed boats with thinner skin.  I am just trying to keep expectations realistic no matter how thick the steel.  Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 00:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would. Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside. Reality is far more accurate than theory. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing.   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34720|34639|2018-01-12 10:29:35|prairiemaidca|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |    What does the average 40ft non ref. shipping container weigh empty?Martin...(Prairie Maid)| 34721|34639|2018-01-12 10:49:15|brentswain38|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |A container full of machinery would sink instantly.To float, it would have to be crammed with the light stuff.| 34722|34639|2018-01-12 10:59:02|Matt Malone|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | >Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. Maxime you are right.   I was thinking about this and thinking, that it will float level with the vents are near the top.  If the load is dense and low, and strapped down, the container can float upright, vents high out of the water I was thinking for quite a long time.   But that is actually quite improbable for this reason.   Containers do not get into the water gently.   If one imagines a container of anything falling 60 feet to the water, smack, all the internal straps, if there were any, are broken, and  if it is anything dense, that means probably all the cargo is in one end of the container, it is floating on end, and the lower vents are under 20 feet and counting of water, leaking as fast as they can.   I would not bet either for or against it taking an hour to sink, but in the grand scheme of things, that is fast.  In a sailboat, you were almost certainly in sight of the ship when the container fell in.  Conversely, if one is out of sight of, 20 miles outside of shipping lanes, one can consider the chance a container of steel parts or machinery will still be floating as quite low.   For the relatively short time it floats, it is almost certainly floating end-up, 15, then 10, then 5 feet out of the water, so, it is more visible.   If one hits it just before it sinks, one is more pivoting it, not pushing it, so the impact will be lower.   So the 4th factor is a small risk.        So the dangerous containers are filled with cabbage, or worse, sealed products that will individually float.  If one has 25 tons float-able stuff in a container, with an average density of 0.8 (including shipping boxes etc), then the cargo will provide enough buoyancy to float an empty container which weighs 5 tons.   Such a container might float indefinitely.   I wonder if there is a regulation about how a container is loaded to prevent this?   Further these products that are close to, or less than the density of water, they will not all go to one end, and even if they do, the container will go more level as it fills, and will tend to make the container float near level just before going down.  If it ever does orient end up, bobbing 20 feet in the air, it will not do it for very long as it fills and the product redistributes again.  So you are right Maxime (and now Brent) the container of iron cargo is relatively a tiny fraction of the total container risk to a sailboat.  Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. On 12 January 2018 at 21:53, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I was supposing a shipping container with a few large pieces of cast industrial machinery, half full of water, half ullage. Absolutely correct, if it is a shipping container full of toys in sealed plastic, that average less dense than water, and one would have to assume the rest of the container is nearly full of water, almost no ullage, then there is virtually no slosh effect - the 4th effect I talked about.   Sure there is a lot of cargo from toys to cabbages that would fit this category. Hitting a mostly submerged shipping container full of cabbages or toys would still be like running a dump truck into a fully loaded railway grain car.  I think that is a useful mental image to keep in mind to encourage prudence, no matter the boat's construction. The maximum cargo weight in a container is controlled by the strength of the floor.  It varies with the container, but it is 25-30 tons, much less than 74 tons of water displacement.  So, to sink low in the water, a container must be at least half full of water. Virtually every container filled to max weight with iron products, be it CNC equipment, driveshafts, or machine screws will be in this category. That is far from just theory, but it is only a fraction of containers.   Is it Russian roulette?   Will it be like a railway grain car, or two oil tanker cars? I think the dump truck vs two oil tanker rail cars is a useful mental image for a cruiser to keep in mind if they are inclined to believe any boat is unsinkable.  Boats vs rock is like dump truck vs bridge abutment, only, one can be pretty sure the speed of the rock is zero, so the closing speed is all about boat speed over which the pilot has more direct control.  Prudence is rewarded. I am not running down origamis vs framed boats with thinner skin.  I am just trying to keep expectations realistic no matter how thick the steel.  Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 00:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would. Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside. Reality is far more accurate than theory. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing..   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34723|34639|2018-01-12 10:59:54|Matt Malone|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | Just under 5 tons.   9,900 pounds for mine.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 10:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container         What does the average 40ft non ref. shipping container weigh empty? Martin...(Prairie Maid) | 34724|34639|2018-01-12 11:14:53|Matt Malone|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | This article was interesting.   Turns out origamis are not the only boats that have hit things and remained floating.   That does not challenge Brent's assertions that origamis are better.        http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/ A legendary offshore danger - Ocean Navigator - March ... www.oceannavigator.com Colliding with a water-logged shipping container in the middle of a gale is a sailor’s worst nightmare, but that’s exactly what happened to Capt. Andrew Segal one ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     >Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. Maxime you are right.   I was thinking about this and thinking, that it will float level with the vents are near the top.  If the load is dense and low, and strapped down, the container can float upright, vents high out of the water I was thinking for quite a long time.   But that is actually quite improbable for this reason.   Containers do not get into the water gently.   If one imagines a container of anything falling 60 feet to the water, smack, all the internal straps, if there were any, are broken, and  if it is anything dense, that means probably all the cargo is in one end of the container, it is floating on end, and the lower vents are under 20 feet and counting of water, leaking as fast as they can.   I would not bet either for or against it taking an hour to sink, but in the grand scheme of things, that is fast.  In a sailboat, you were almost certainly in sight of the ship when the container fell in.  Conversely, if one is out of sight of, 20 miles outside of shipping lanes, one can consider the chance a container of steel parts or machinery will still be floating as quite low.   For the relatively short time it floats, it is almost certainly floating end-up, 15, then 10, then 5 feet out of the water, so, it is more visible.   If one hits it just before it sinks, one is more pivoting it, not pushing it, so the impact will be lower.   So the 4th factor is a small risk.        So the dangerous containers are filled with cabbage, or worse, sealed products that will individually float.  If one has 25 tons float-able stuff in a container, with an average density of 0.8 (including shipping boxes etc), then the cargo will provide enough buoyancy to float an empty container which weighs 5 tons.   Such a container might float indefinitely.   I wonder if there is a regulation about how a container is loaded to prevent this?   Further these products that are close to, or less than the density of water, they will not all go to one end, and even if they do, the container will go more level as it fills, and will tend to make the container float near level just before going down.  If it ever does orient end up, bobbing 20 feet in the air, it will not do it for very long as it fills and the product redistributes again.  So you are right Maxime (and now Brent) the container of iron cargo is relatively a tiny fraction of the total container risk to a sailboat.  Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. On 12 January 2018 at 21:53, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I was supposing a shipping container with a few large pieces of cast industrial machinery, half full of water, half ullage. Absolutely correct, if it is a shipping container full of toys in sealed plastic, that average less dense than water, and one would have to assume the rest of the container is nearly full of water, almost no ullage, then there is virtually no slosh effect - the 4th effect I talked about.   Sure there is a lot of cargo from toys to cabbages that would fit this category. Hitting a mostly submerged shipping container full of cabbages or toys would still be like running a dump truck into a fully loaded railway grain car.  I think that is a useful mental image to keep in mind to encourage prudence, no matter the boat's construction. The maximum cargo weight in a container is controlled by the strength of the floor.  It varies with the container, but it is 25-30 tons, much less than 74 tons of water displacement.  So, to sink low in the water, a container must be at least half full of water. Virtually every container filled to max weight with iron products, be it CNC equipment, driveshafts, or machine screws will be in this category. That is far from just theory, but it is only a fraction of containers.   Is it Russian roulette?   Will it be like a railway grain car, or two oil tanker cars? I think the dump truck vs two oil tanker rail cars is a useful mental image for a cruiser to keep in mind if they are inclined to believe any boat is unsinkable.  Boats vs rock is like dump truck vs bridge abutment, only, one can be pretty sure the speed of the rock is zero, so the closing speed is all about boat speed over which the pilot has more direct control.  Prudence is rewarded. I am not running down origamis vs framed boats with thinner skin.  I am just trying to keep expectations realistic no matter how thick the steel.  Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 00:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would. Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside. Reality is far more accurate than theory. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing..   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34725|34639|2018-01-12 11:35:34|Matt Malone|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | Yes another story: http://gcaptain.com/vendee-globe-sailor-in-trouble-after-boat-hits-shipping-container-off-new-zealand/ Vendée Globe Sailor in Trouble After Boat Hits Shipping ... gcaptain.com Vendée Globe Sailor in Trouble After Boat Hits Shipping Container Off New Zealand – UPDATE. December 19, 2016 by Mike Schuler Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 11:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This article was interesting.   Turns out origamis are not the only boats that have hit things and remained floating.   That does not challenge Brent's assertions that origamis are better.        http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/ A legendary offshore danger - Ocean Navigator - March ... www.oceannavigator.com Colliding with a water-logged shipping container in the middle of a gale is a sailor’s worst nightmare, but that’s exactly what happened to Capt. Andrew Segal one ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     >Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage.. Most do not. Maxime you are right.   I was thinking about this and thinking, that it will float level with the vents are near the top.  If the load is dense and low, and strapped down, the container can float upright, vents high out of the water I was thinking for quite a long time.   But that is actually quite improbable for this reason.   Containers do not get into the water gently.   If one imagines a container of anything falling 60 feet to the water, smack, all the internal straps, if there were any, are broken, and  if it is anything dense, that means probably all the cargo is in one end of the container, it is floating on end, and the lower vents are under 20 feet and counting of water, leaking as fast as they can.   I would not bet either for or against it taking an hour to sink, but in the grand scheme of things, that is fast.  In a sailboat, you were almost certainly in sight of the ship when the container fell in.  Conversely, if one is out of sight of, 20 miles outside of shipping lanes, one can consider the chance a container of steel parts or machinery will still be floating as quite low.   For the relatively short time it floats, it is almost certainly floating end-up, 15, then 10, then 5 feet out of the water, so, it is more visible.   If one hits it just before it sinks, one is more pivoting it, not pushing it, so the impact will be lower.   So the 4th factor is a small risk.        So the dangerous containers are filled with cabbage, or worse, sealed products that will individually float.  If one has 25 tons float-able stuff in a container, with an average density of 0.8 (including shipping boxes etc), then the cargo will provide enough buoyancy to float an empty container which weighs 5 tons.   Such a container might float indefinitely.   I wonder if there is a regulation about how a container is loaded to prevent this?   Further these products that are close to, or less than the density of water, they will not all go to one end, and even if they do, the container will go more level as it fills, and will tend to make the container float near level just before going down.  If it ever does orient end up, bobbing 20 feet in the air, it will not do it for very long as it fills and the product redistributes again.  So you are right Maxime (and now Brent) the container of iron cargo is relatively a tiny fraction of the total container risk to a sailboat.  Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. On 12 January 2018 at 21:53, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I was supposing a shipping container with a few large pieces of cast industrial machinery, half full of water, half ullage. Absolutely correct, if it is a shipping container full of toys in sealed plastic, that average less dense than water, and one would have to assume the rest of the container is nearly full of water, almost no ullage, then there is virtually no slosh effect - the 4th effect I talked about.   Sure there is a lot of cargo from toys to cabbages that would fit this category. Hitting a mostly submerged shipping container full of cabbages or toys would still be like running a dump truck into a fully loaded railway grain car.  I think that is a useful mental image to keep in mind to encourage prudence, no matter the boat's construction. The maximum cargo weight in a container is controlled by the strength of the floor.  It varies with the container, but it is 25-30 tons, much less than 74 tons of water displacement.  So, to sink low in the water, a container must be at least half full of water. Virtually every container filled to max weight with iron products, be it CNC equipment, driveshafts, or machine screws will be in this category. That is far from just theory, but it is only a fraction of containers.   Is it Russian roulette?   Will it be like a railway grain car, or two oil tanker cars? I think the dump truck vs two oil tanker rail cars is a useful mental image for a cruiser to keep in mind if they are inclined to believe any boat is unsinkable.  Boats vs rock is like dump truck vs bridge abutment, only, one can be pretty sure the speed of the rock is zero, so the closing speed is all about boat speed over which the pilot has more direct control.  Prudence is rewarded. I am not running down origamis vs framed boats with thinner skin.  I am just trying to keep expectations realistic no matter how thick the steel.  Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 00:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would. Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside. Reality is far more accurate than theory. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing...   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34726|34639|2018-01-12 12:03:37|Jfisher|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |The interesting note was that 5 boats had hit something on that leg of the race and retired. There are either more containers out there than people think or they are really unlucky.  Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2018, at 09:35, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes another story: http://gcaptain.com/vendee-globe-sailor-in-trouble-after-boat-hits-shipping-container-off-new-zealand/ Vendée Globe Sailor in Trouble After Boat Hits Shipping ... gcaptain.com Vendée Globe Sailor in Trouble After Boat Hits Shipping Container Off New Zealand – UPDATE. December 19, 2016 by Mike Schuler Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 11:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This article was interesting.   Turns out origamis are not the only boats that have hit things and remained floating.   That does not challenge Brent's assertions that origamis are better.        http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/ A legendary offshore danger - Ocean Navigator - March ... www.oceannavigator.com Colliding with a water-logged shipping container in the middle of a gale is a sailor’s worst nightmare, but that’s exactly what happened to Capt. Andrew Segal one ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     >Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage... Most do not. Maxime you are right.   I was thinking about this and thinking, that it will float level with the vents are near the top.  If the load is dense and low, and strapped down, the container can float upright, vents high out of the water I was thinking for quite a long time.   But that is actually quite improbable for this reason.   Containers do not get into the water gently.   If one imagines a container of anything falling 60 feet to the water, smack, all the internal straps, if there were any, are broken, and  if it is anything dense, that means probably all the cargo is in one end of the container, it is floating on end, and the lower vents are under 20 feet and counting of water, leaking as fast as they can.   I would not bet either for or against it taking an hour to sink, but in the grand scheme of things, that is fast.  In a sailboat, you were almost certainly in sight of the ship when the container fell in.  Conversely, if one is out of sight of, 20 miles outside of shipping lanes, one can consider the chance a container of steel parts or machinery will still be floating as quite low.   For the relatively short time it floats, it is almost certainly floating end-up, 15, then 10, then 5 feet out of the water, so, it is more visible.   If one hits it just before it sinks, one is more pivoting it, not pushing it, so the impact will be lower.   So the 4th factor is a small risk.        So the dangerous containers are filled with cabbage, or worse, sealed products that will individually float.  If one has 25 tons float-able stuff in a container, with an average density of 0.8 (including shipping boxes etc), then the cargo will provide enough buoyancy to float an empty container which weighs 5 tons.   Such a container might float indefinitely.   I wonder if there is a regulation about how a container is loaded to prevent this?   Further these products that are close to, or less than the density of water, they will not all go to one end, and even if they do, the container will go more level as it fills, and will tend to make the container float near level just before going down.  If it ever does orient end up, bobbing 20 feet in the air, it will not do it for very long as it fills and the product redistributes again.  So you are right Maxime (and now Brent) the container of iron cargo is relatively a tiny fraction of the total container risk to a sailboat.  Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     Containers filled with big pieces of machinery will sink unless they are using inflated bags as dunnage. Most do not. On 12 January 2018 at 21:53, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I was supposing a shipping container with a few large pieces of cast industrial machinery, half full of water, half ullage. Absolutely correct, if it is a shipping container full of toys in sealed plastic, that average less dense than water, and one would have to assume the rest of the container is nearly full of water, almost no ullage, then there is virtually no slosh effect - the 4th effect I talked about.   Sure there is a lot of cargo from toys to cabbages that would fit this category. Hitting a mostly submerged shipping container full of cabbages or toys would still be like running a dump truck into a fully loaded railway grain car.  I think that is a useful mental image to keep in mind to encourage prudence, no matter the boat's construction. The maximum cargo weight in a container is controlled by the strength of the floor.  It varies with the container, but it is 25-30 tons, much less than 74 tons of water displacement.  So, to sink low in the water, a container must be at least half full of water. Virtually every container filled to max weight with iron products, be it CNC equipment, driveshafts, or machine screws will be in this category. That is far from just theory, but it is only a fraction of containers.   Is it Russian roulette?   Will it be like a railway grain car, or two oil tanker cars? I think the dump truck vs two oil tanker rail cars is a useful mental image for a cruiser to keep in mind if they are inclined to believe any boat is unsinkable.  Boats vs rock is like dump truck vs bridge abutment, only, one can be pretty sure the speed of the rock is zero, so the closing speed is all about boat speed over which the pilot has more direct control.  Prudence is rewarded. I am not running down origamis vs framed boats with thinner skin.  I am just trying to keep expectations realistic no matter how thick the steel.  Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 00:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To slosh,there has to be some free space around the water.Fill a jar mostly with water, and the last inch with oil, completely full, screw the lid on tight, then shake it.The two remain separate. Draina quarter inch of oil out ,screw the lid back on, and try again.Now the two mix in little globlets. A barely breaking the surgface container would have little sloshing, but a partly full one would. Dave and others hitting a rocks as fast as they are likely to go in steel boats, with so little dammage proves the chance of thems doing serious damage in such a collision, to be extremely unlikely, theory aside. Reality is far more accurate than theory. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There are two components of the momentum for floating stuff like boats and partially submerged shipping containers.   The first momentum is that associated with the mass of the thing that is floating -- that is obvious.   The second is associated with the movement of the hole in the water created by the thing.   It is a hydrodynamic artifact.   But you say, hold on, in buoyancy equilibrium, they are the same thing right, the hole in the water weighs only what the object does.   No, not in acceleration and impact, they are not.  This second component of momentum is the one I want to talk about.  Lets imagines a styrofoam paddle, that is a paddle that is very light, but lets imagine it to be very stiff.  Lets imagine one forces it into the water to the depth one would normally paddle.   The paddle is not in buoyancy equilibrium with the water.  The total mass of the paddle is less than the water displaced, but, that is not uncommon with a paddle, one holds the blade of it down to keep it under water.   It is common experience that there is a force associated with  changing the speed of a paddle in water.   There is a force involved in creating a new flow of water around the paddle, and this has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.  Similarly, once one has the paddle moving there is a force associated with stopping the paddle that has nothing to do with the mass of styrofoam.   When one takes this force and divides by the acceleration or deceleration one is applying to the paddle, F/a = m, one gets a fictitious mass which has nothing to do with the mass of the styrofoam.   This fictitious mass is in fact equivalent to the mass of the water that would have filled the hole that the paddle is making in the water.    So lets imagine a paddle with its blade made out of ice that is the same density as water, and its shaft made out of an imaginary material with zero mass.   The paddle would be at buoyancy equilibrium in the water, it would float without being forced into the water.   The effort required to accelerate the paddle in the water is equivalent to the effort to accelerate the mass of ice plus the mass of the water that would have filled the hole.   It is not hard to see, with the paddle in the water, it is about twice as hard to change its speed, and therefore it is like it is twice as massive. This is true of all floating things in buoyant equilibrium.     Therefore a nearly submerged shipping container container of 40x8x8.5 feet, floating with 6" out of the water, has a mass of 74 tons but in impacts, the forces between it and a boat would the the same as if the shipping container weighed 148 tons -- twice as much.   Likewise the boat, if it weighs 8 tons, behaves as though it weighs 16 tons in impacts when floating in water.   The collision between a boat and a floating shipping container would be like an empty dump truck hitting a fully loaded grain railway car, at whatever closing speed is occurring between the boat and shipping container.   If it is rough waves, the closing speed might easily be 10 miles per hour.   Also the hydrodynamic forces that induce the forces of the virtual mass behave like a dead-blow hammer, continuing to push and better transfer impact energy.   Further, part of the weight in the shipping container might be water, and its slosh just after the impact can lead to a second impact.   A tanker truck that brakes feels a slosh impact in the tank.  If a tanker truck hits a car, the car feels two impacts.  An impact with a water filled shipping container would therefore act like driving a dump truck into two oil-tanker railway cars that are each 2/3rds full of oil.  In conclusion, it is like getting hit 4 times.  Double for the first impact, plus the dead-blow effect for half the first impact, followed by yet another impact if there is sloshing water.   Hitting a floating thing may be better than hitting a rock, but not if it is moving toward you accelerated by the force of a wave behind it.    It is no wonder crap cored-glass boats, even ones with a kevlar layer can be holed so easily from "one" impact with a massive floating thing....   It is not just the weight of it, it is not an ordinary impact, and it is not just one hit.   Matt | 34727|34639|2018-01-12 15:12:54|Darren Bos|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | This Yachting World article suggests that not all the reported strikes of hard objects in race events may actually be strikes.  Apparently, it is much easier to get an insurance claim paid for hitting an object than for a boat that suffers damage as a result of being very lightly built.  The same article describes a Pacific Seacraft that survived a likely collision with a container. The Ocean Navigator Article Matt provided a link to stated that British scallop trawler, Solway Harvester had hit a container and sunk.  I went to find out more as this would have been a case of a metal boat sunk by a container.  The accident report reveals that it didn't strike a container and that poor maintenance by the owner was a the heart of the sinking (Wiki link). I suspect that the number of shipping containers that are lost is much higher than the industry reports, but the ocean is also huge.  If you look at it from a statistical perspective, the chance of striking a container at sea is not a great reason to have a metal boat (other than the psychological benefit).  You are more likely to die ashore going to get groceries with a maniac of a cab driver.  There are however lots of other reasons why a metal boat is great (drier, surviving a grounding etc.) and you get the happy benefit that should you lose the lottery you're likely to bounce off the container.  Really, the greatest risk to anyone in the first world is sitting around on a couch.  If you have a boat of any material and you are out cruising you have likely increased your lifespan and quality of life appreciably.  Metal boats likely increase your quality of life and lifespan a bit further compared to a fiberglass boat, but I think that additional gain is small compared to remaining sitting on the couch.  Darren, who is refitting his aluminum boat. On 18-01-12 09:03 AM, Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The interesting note was that 5 boats had hit something on that leg of the race and retired. There are either more containers out there than people think or they are really unlucky.   Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2018, at 09:35, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes another story: http://gcaptain.com/vendee-globe-sailor-in-trouble-after-boat-hits-shipping-container-off-new-zealand/ Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 11:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This article was interesting.   Turns out origamis are not the only boats that have hit things and remained floating.   That does not challenge Brent's assertions that origamis are better.        http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/ | 34728|34709|2018-01-12 15:26:40|opuspaul|Re: Marine traffic|I am out of touch with the latest sailmail or winlink but I believe the latest Pactor modems are able to download simple webpages and photos.  It is definitely possible with satellite but it is still expensive, slow and bandwidth limited so you need will and the budget.  It is best to subscribe to a specialized service that compresses and strips out the extra data that is useless like advertising.  There is a lot to this and it keeps changing.   Here are a couple of videos that show more.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cpbh_ixpDAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IPyvgyzepc---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wonder if you could pick that up at sea witha ham radio and winlink.| 34729|34639|2018-01-12 15:30:12|opuspaul|Re: Steel Sail boat U tube|Having worked on helicopters and worked on their hoists, I agree with you 100%.  The problem is that the boys and girls flying them are trained to use them and they want to play (or practice) with their toys.   They don't have the budget to hang around and wait for a situation to improve and won't want to return if the situation actually gets worse so they will yank you off your boat as soon as possible.  A lot of the skippers on yachts in trouble are usually exhausted (and seasick) after a series of mishaps but not really in danger of sinking.   Sometimes it is only rigging or sail damage and they aren't in any real danger at all.  Those two idiots from Hawaii with the two dogs "rescued" 900 miles from Japan being a good example.  Most of them would be far better off if they were talked to for awhile, given advice and re-assured.   It is amazing how much better things look after a good nights sleep.  What can seem like and impossible situation suddenly becomes manageable.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Plucking you off can be extremely dangeous, far more so than sticking with a boat which is still useable.| 34730|34639|2018-01-12 17:49:00|Matt Malone|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | >The Ocean Navigator Article Matt provided a link to stated that British scallop >trawler, Solway Harvester had hit a container and sunk.  I went to find out more >as this would have been a case of a metal boat sunk by a container.  The accident >report reveals that it didn't strike a container and that poor maintenance by the >owner was a the heart of the sinking (Wiki link). Thank you for taking interest and researching more.   Size is not always a benefit.  Small prey animals hide in thorn bushes because larger animals suffer more from the thorns.  Large steel boats have two things working against them increased forces and proportionately thinner skin, and one one working for them.   With an increase in size, there is an increase in mass (length cubed) increasing impact forces, increase in area on which the seas can exert forces (length squared) increasing impact forces and probably do not compare well to a Brent boat when skin thickness is scaled linearly with length.  The factor working with larger steel commercial ships, is they have a tremendous volume compared to the probable size of a hole from hitting/being hit by a shipping container, so, it is a very slowly developing problem, before considering that they might simply close bulkheads and isolate the area.   The steel boat in most danger would be the largest thin-skinned, framed yacht of maybe 75 tons that has insufficient watertight bulkheads where the corner of a container collides with the center of a skin panel.   Such a boat might routinely travel at twice the speed of a Brent boat too, further exacerbating the collision. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This Yachting World article suggests that not all the reported strikes of hard objects in race events may actually be strikes.  Apparently, it is much easier to get an insurance claim paid for hitting an object than for a boat that suffers damage as a result of being very lightly built.  The same article describes a Pacific Seacraft that survived a likely collision with a container. The Ocean Navigator Article Matt provided a link to stated that British scallop trawler, Solway Harvester had hit a container and sunk.  I went to find out more as this would have been a case of a metal boat sunk by a container.  The accident report reveals that it didn't strike a container and that poor maintenance by the owner was a the heart of the sinking (Wiki link). I suspect that the number of shipping containers that are lost is much higher than the industry reports, but the ocean is also huge.  If you look at it from a statistical perspective, the chance of striking a container at sea is not a great reason to have a metal boat (other than the psychological benefit).  You are more likely to die ashore going to get groceries with a maniac of a cab driver.  There are however lots of other reasons why a metal boat is great (drier, surviving a grounding etc.) and you get the happy benefit that should you lose the lottery you're likely to bounce off the container.  Really, the greatest risk to anyone in the first world is sitting around on a couch.  If you have a boat of any material and you are out cruising you have likely increased your lifespan and quality of life appreciably.  Metal boats likely increase your quality of life and lifespan a bit further compared to a fiberglass boat, but I think that additional gain is small compared to remaining sitting on the couch.  Darren, who is refitting his aluminum boat. On 18-01-12 09:03 AM, Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The interesting note was that 5 boats had hit something on that leg of the race and retired. There are either more containers out there than people think or they are really unlucky.   Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2018, at 09:35, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes another story: http://gcaptain.com/vendee-globe-sailor-in-trouble-after-boat-hits-shipping-container-off-new-zealand/ Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 11:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This article was interesting.   Turns out origamis are not the only boats that have hit things and remained floating.   That does not challenge Brent's assertions that origamis are better.        http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/ | 34731|34639|2018-01-12 17:56:00|brentswain38|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |I know several cruisers  with 3/16th hull plate, two of them in my boats,  which have hit sunken or moored barges at hull speed, two of them hitting a sharp corner of the barge, with only minor paint scrapes.Kinda makes any claim that they might sink,  a bit silly. | 34732|34639|2018-01-12 18:09:28|brentswain38|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |Thanks. Great article!3 inch thick 31 footer sounds like total bullshit,tho. Sounds like he is still believing the broker, unquestioningly. Yes, some plastic boats can survive some collisions ,but good seamanship means leaving as little as possible to chance.| 34733|34639|2018-01-12 18:18:34|brentswain38|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping |Boy ,that's a lot of collisions, for something claimed to be extremely rare and unlikely.I see the deck broken up.Metal would have buckled at the worst,  but probably would not have leaked.| 34734|34734|2018-01-12 18:37:27|brentswain38|Trimtab|The trimtab photo recently posted, looks like it may have a bit too much balance, and may freely swing hard over, throwing the helm hard over.If that turns  out to be the case, the balance can be easily reduced from the top and  bottom ends.| 34735|34639|2018-01-12 18:48:15|mountain man|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | If a 32 feet fiberglass sailboat with 3/8 in. thick hull weigh at 12000 lbs, how much would weigh a 3 in. thick hull??? It would sink!! On Jan 12, 2018, at 6:09 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Thanks. Great article! 3 inch thick 31 footer sounds like total bullshit,tho. Sounds like he is still believing the broker, unquestioningly. Yes, some plastic boats can survive some collisions ,but good seamanship means leaving as little as possible to chance. | 34736|34639|2018-01-12 20:53:32|Darren Bos|Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping | Agreed Matt, although for a first order approximation a 70 foot trawler sinking after hitting a container would have been worth further thought.  However, that wasn't the case.  When reading about containers and container ships I came across a reference that you need to be careful loading them because if the weight isn't distributed properly they can literally break in half as they span waves!  I think the Swain 36 is right in the sweet spot when it comes to metal boats.  It is just large enough to be built out of steel without being overly heavy, yet is also light enough that it is more likely to bounce off things than managing to generate enough force to breach the steel shell.  To keep up the biological analogy, a Swain 36 it is a humming bird egg, not an ostrich egg.  On 18-01-12 02:47 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   >The Ocean Navigator Article Matt provided a link to stated that British scallop >trawler, Solway Harvester had hit a container and sunk.  I went to find out more >as this would have been a case of a metal boat sunk by a container.  The accident >report reveals that it didn't strike a container and that poor maintenance by the >owner was a the heart of the sinking (Wiki link). Thank you for taking interest and researching more.   Size is not always a benefit.  Small prey animals hide in thorn bushes because larger animals suffer more from the thorns.  Large steel boats have two things working against them increased forces and proportionately thinner skin, and one one working for them.   With an increase in size, there is an increase in mass (length cubed) increasing impact forces, increase in area on which the seas can exert forces (length squared) increasing impact forces and probably do not compare well to a Brent boat when skin thickness is scaled linearly with length.  The factor working with larger steel commercial ships, is they have a tremendous volume compared to the probable size of a hole from hitting/being hit by a shipping container, so, it is a very slowly developing problem, before considering that they might simply close bulkheads and isolate the area.   The steel boat in most danger would be the largest thin-skinned, framed yacht of maybe 75 tons that has insufficient watertight bulkheads where the corner of a container collides with the center of a skin panel.   Such a boat might routinely travel at twice the speed of a Brent boat too, further exacerbating the collision. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This Yachting World article suggests that not all the reported strikes of hard objects in race events may actually be strikes.  Apparently, it is much easier to get an insurance claim paid for hitting an object than for a boat that suffers damage as a result of being very lightly built.  The same article describes a Pacific Seacraft that survived a likely collision with a container. The Ocean Navigator Article Matt provided a link to stated that British scallop trawler, Solway Harvester had hit a container and sunk.  I went to find out more as this would have been a case of a metal boat sunk by a container.  The accident report reveals that it didn't strike a container and that poor maintenance by the owner was a the heart of the sinking (Wiki link). I suspect that the number of shipping containers that are lost is much higher than the industry reports, but the ocean is also huge.  If you look at it from a statistical perspective, the chance of striking a container at sea is not a great reason to have a metal boat (other than the psychological benefit).  You are more likely to die ashore going to get groceries with a maniac of a cab driver.  There are however lots of other reasons why a metal boat is great (drier, surviving a grounding etc.) and you get the happy benefit that should you lose the lottery you're likely to bounce off the container.  Really, the greatest risk to anyone in the first world is sitting around on a couch.  If you have a boat of any material and you are out cruising you have likely increased your lifespan and quality of life appreciably.  Metal boats likely increase your quality of life and lifespan a bit further compared to a fiberglass boat, but I think that additional gain is small compared to remaining sitting on the couch.  Darren, who is refitting his aluminum boat. On 18-01-12 09:03 AM, Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The interesting note was that 5 boats had hit something on that leg of the race and retired. There are either more containers out there than people think or they are really unlucky.   Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2018, at 09:35, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes another story: http://gcaptain.com/vendee-globe-sailor-in-trouble-after-boat-hits-shipping-container-off-new-zealand/ Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 11:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The "Momentum" of Floating stuff -- Hitting a floating shipping container     This article was interesting.   Turns out origamis are not the only boats that have hit things and remained floating.   That does not challenge Brent's assertions that origamis are better.        http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/ | 34737|34737|2018-01-16 19:04:44|brentswain38|Shot blasting|We get our steel, steel shot blasted and primed from the source, saving a lot of time, money and dirty work.Cleaning the few occasional rust spots as clean as shot blasted metal is not as easy as one would hope.I just thought of an extremely easy way to do it, in a fraction of a second.For many years now, the use of lead shot for duck hunting has been illegal, making steel shot shells easy to find. A point blank shot with steel shot would clean those spots instantly  , as clean as a wheelabrader .The smaller the shot, the better. One would have to shoot at a 45 degree angle, so it wouldn't bounce right back at you. Hose clamping a 3/8th rod , of the right length ,to the barrel will take care of aiming. Just rest the rod on the plate. One would have to experiment with different distances,and different steel thicknesses,  to find how close you can get without denting the  steel. One even could go down to  a 410 shotgun.As most steel boat owners know, the cleaner you get it, the longer it lasts. This should drastically reduce maintenance time. All I need now is summer painting  weather, to try it out."Duck Dynasty" steel boat maintenance anyone?| 34738|34734|2018-01-16 19:08:52|brentswain38|Re: Trimtab|A guy building servo pendulum rigs in Auckland in the 70s said a 24% lead is a perfect balance.Any more, and  it swings hard over and stays there. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The trimtab photo recently posted, looks like it may have a bit too much balance, and may freely swing hard over, throwing the helm hard over.If that turns  out to be the case, the balance can be easily reduced from the top and  bottom ends.| 34739|34734|2018-01-16 19:48:14|opuspaul|Re: Trimtab|I read 20 to 23% is a good range to shoot for in John Letcher's most excellent book, "Self Steering for Sailing Craft".   You can now dowload it for free.  http://www.jesterinfo.org/selfsteeringforsailingcraft.htmlClose to 20 is more stable and forgiving, 23 is more powerful for a given input and more sensitive.   24% may be too close to the edge of being overbalanced but we are really splitting hairs.   These figures assume an airfoil shaped tab.   The leading edge of the tab should be rounded.   Having a sharp or flat paddle tab may cause the tab to stall out, create turbulence and lose drive.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A guy building servo pendulum rigs in Auckland in the 70s said a 24% lead is a perfect balance.Any more, and  it swings hard over and stays there. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The trimtab photo recently posted, looks like it may have a bit too much balance, and may freely swing hard over, throwing the helm hard over.If that turns  out to be the case, the balance can be easily reduced from the top and  bottom ends.| 34740|34737|2018-01-16 19:57:52|opuspaul|Re: Shot blasting|Doug at SV Seeker has had some success with wet blasting using a high pressure water blaster.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYtbPG1RKgYHe also has a pretty good wet rig using a large air compressor.http://www.svseeker.com/wp/sv-seeker-2/sailboat/sand-blasting/| 34741|34737|2018-01-16 22:22:50|Matt Malone|Re: Shot blasting| Hi Brent, Can one re-use steel shot that has been used for rust removal once?   I can think of a number of ways to separate it from the debris, and catching it does not seem all that hard.    Naturally there will be a fraction of loss, and a limited lifetime, but shooting it 4 times means buying 1/4th of the shot.   General question, what is the recyclability of other blast media ?   I read an ad for glass blasting media, it was cheap, but some are not so cheap.   Separating it might be harder but, an infrasizer would work well.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Shot blasting     We get our steel, steel shot blasted and primed from the source, saving a lot of time, money and dirty work. Cleaning the few occasional rust spots as clean as shot blasted metal is not as easy as one would hope.I just thought of an extremely easy way to do it, in a fraction of a second. For many years now, the use of lead shot for duck hunting has been illegal, making steel shot shells easy to find. A point blank shot with steel shot would clean those spots instantly  , as clean as a wheelabrader .The smaller the shot, the better. One would have to shoot at a 45 degree angle, so it wouldn't bounce right back at you. Hose clamping a 3/8th rod , of the right length ,to the barrel will take care of aiming. Just rest the rod on the plate. One would have to experiment with different distances,and different steel thicknesses,  to find how close you can get without denting the  steel. One even could go down to  a 410 shotgun. As most steel boat owners know, the cleaner you get it, the longer it lasts. This should drastically reduce maintenance time. All I need now is summer painting  weather, to try it out. "Duck Dynasty" steel boat maintenance anyone? | 34742|34734|2018-01-16 22:53:22|Matt Malone|Re: Trimtab| It is a fundamental principle of fluid mechanics, that the center of pressure is at the 1/4 cord point, one quarter of the way from the leading edge of an aerodynamic blade/wing to the trailing edge.   However, when the blade/wing experiences flow separation/stall, for instance at too great an angle of attack, then the center of pressure can change, shifting aft, and shifting erratically.  This is good because if the axis of rotation is at the 1/4 chord point, then the blade/wing will tend not turn sideways to the flow.   Throw a styrofoam strip -- the center of mass is in line with the center, the 1/2 chord, so in free motion, it will flip around and around its intermediate dimension, the chord dimension for a wing.   If the leading edge is not perpendicular to the flow, or not parallel to the axis of rotation, then very complicated things can happen to either stabilize or destabilize the system.   A swept wing is more stable. Further, flexibility is something that can cause divergence and turning sideways to the flow.  Do not underestimate the strength of a water flow on a good foil design.   Foils can lift boats out of the water.  A self-steering foil is not much smaller.   A trim tab may be mounted top and bottom unlike a servo-pendulum rig, but, if it is not stiff enough, or too long, it can warp outward.   Also, trim tabs are really famously bad for causing flutter on aircraft wings.   Make the drive mechanism for the trim tab as stiff as possible, to drive up flutter frequency (it wastes more energy) and drive down flutter amplitude.  This will help make the structure more immune to flutter.    Flutter in a water flow can be very serious.  I made a transom hung rudder once that was not sufficiently restrained laterally and at a certain speed, it would start to flutter.   One would swear there was a industrial reciprocating saw cutting through the hull.   The vibration in the tiller told me where it was coming from.   I was afraid it would rip out the pintle and gudgeon.   I slowed down until I got it back to the launch and took it apart and modified it so it was tighter.   Same can happen if the stern tube and rudder stock do not fit reasonably tightly, or the pintle and gudgeon have play in a transom-hung rudder.        24% provides just 1%  stabilization torque to the hydrodynamic blade, which is overcome by the wind vane.   A very optimal balanced design that can lead to very high amplification of the force from the wind vane.   In funny flow situations around the tab, it may do odd things.   A slightly larger margin, and a bigger wind vane would be less efficient, more sluggish, but more robust in not doing funny things.   The difference can be a matter of a 1/64 of an inch -- tabs are very delicate to balance -- gentle touch with a belt sander can make a difference.    I would make it as Brent recommends, and then take the belt sander to it if it is a bit too "lively" / "twitchy".   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trimtab     A guy building servo pendulum rigs in Auckland in the 70s said a 24% lead is a perfect balance.Any more, and  it swings hard over and stays there. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The trimtab photo recently posted, looks like it may have a bit too much balance, and may freely swing hard over, throwing the helm hard over. If that turns  out to be the case, the balance can be easily reduced from the top and  bottom ends. | 34743|34734|2018-01-17 15:52:58|brentswain38|Re: Trimtab|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The same problem with stalling also applies to keels. I have an article from Latitude 48, which describes how speed in some racing boats was greatly improved by rounding off the leading edges of the keels, even when broad reaching in rough  water. Roberts designs have leading edges on their keels which are way too sharp, easily rectified in the building process. Some have said a  6 inch pipe leading edge on my single keeler is too blunt.It definitely would be; if it were vertical. Cut it parallel to the waterline, and you get a beautiful elipse, equivalent to a 3 inch pipe run vertically.Sch 40 is too light for the leading edge of a single keeler. Anything less than half inch wall thickness will squash in, if you hit anything, even if  filled with  lead.I read 20 to 23% is a good range to shoot for in John Letcher's most excellent book, "Self Steering for Sailing Craft".   You can now dowload it for free.  http://www.jesterinfo.org/selfsteeringforsailingcraft.htmlClose to 20 is more stable and forgiving, 23 is more powerful for a given input and more sensitive.   24% may be too close to the edge of being overbalanced but we are really splitting hairs.   These figures assume an airfoil shaped tab.   The leading edge of the tab should be rounded.   Having a sharp or flat paddle tab may cause the tab to stall out, create turbulence and lose drive.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A guy building servo pendulum rigs in Auckland in the 70s said a 24% lead is a perfect balance.Any more, and  it swings hard over and stays there. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The trimtab photo recently posted, looks like it may have a bit too much balance, and may freely swing hard over, throwing the helm hard over.If that turns  out to be the case, the balance can be easily reduced from the top and  bottom ends.| 34744|34737|2018-01-17 15:53:48|brentswain38|Re: Shot blasting|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One would have to   be very careful about ricochets.On the hull there would be no problem ,but in complicated deck areas it would be dangerous, and those areas should be avoided with this method. We get our steel, steel shot blasted and primed from the source, saving a lot of time, money and dirty work.Cleaning the few occasional rust spots as clean as shot blasted metal is not as easy as one would hope.I just thought of an extremely easy way to do it, in a fraction of a second.For many years now, the use of lead shot for duck hunting has been illegal, making steel shot shells easy to find. A point blank shot with steel shot would clean those spots instantly  , as clean as a wheelabrader .The smaller the shot, the better. One would have to shoot at a 45 degree angle, so it wouldn't bounce right back at you. Hose clamping a 3/8th rod , of the right length ,to the barrel will take care of aiming. Just rest the rod on the plate. One would have to experiment with different distances,and different steel thicknesses,  to find how close you can get without denting the  steel. One even could go down to  a 410 shotgun.As most steel boat owners know, the cleaner you get it, the longer it lasts. This should drastically reduce maintenance time. All I need now is summer painting  weather, to try it out."Duck Dynasty" steel boat maintenance anyone?| 34745|34737|2018-01-17 16:12:55|brentswain38|Re: Shot blasting|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, I worked in several  shops with wheelabraders,and they kept reusing the steel shot for a long time,over and over again.After bouncing off the  steel,  it drops into the hopper, which runs it thru, over and over again. Don't think sand or glass would survive long, but its cheap,or free. #ygrps-yiv-568687383 #ygrps-yiv-568687383ygrps-yiv-1612256636 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Hi Brent, Can one re-use steel shot that has been used for rust removal once?   I can think of a number of ways to separate it from the debris, and catching it does not seem all that hard.    Naturally there will be a fraction of loss, and a limited lifetime, but shooting it 4 times means buying 1/4th of the shot.   General question, what is the recyclability of other blast media ?   I read an ad for glass blasting media, it was cheap, but some are not so cheap.   Separating it might be harder but, an infrasizer would work well.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Shot blasting  We get our steel, steel shot blasted and primed from the source, saving a lot of time, money and dirty work. Cleaning the few occasional rust spots as clean as shot blasted metal is not as easy as one would hope.I just thought of an extremely easy way to do it, in a fraction of a second. For many years now, the use of lead shot for duck hunting has been illegal, making steel shot shells easy to find. A point blank shot with steel shot would clean those spots instantly  , as clean as a wheelabrader .The smaller the shot, the better. One would have to shoot at a 45 degree angle, so it wouldn't bounce right back at you. Hose clamping a 3/8th rod , of the right length ,to the barrel will take care of aiming. Just rest the rod on the plate. One would have to experiment with different distances,and different steel thicknesses,  to find how close you can get without denting the  steel. One even could go down to  a 410 shotgun. As most steel boat owners know, the cleaner you get it, the longer it lasts. This should drastically reduce maintenance time. All I need now is summer painting  weather, to try it out. "Duck Dynasty" steel boat maintenance anyone?| 34746|34737|2018-01-17 16:13:40|brentswain38|Re: Shot blasting|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One of my 36 footers was hauled out in Texas, where blasting was forbidden.After  dark, on a hot, dry Texas night, he went in with  a wet blaster, blasted the whole bottom,  wiped it dry with rags and kicked the  sand over the evidence,no problem. It worked out well.Another couple, on one of my 31s, hauled out in California on a hot, dry day, wet blasted and wiped her dry with  rags ,let her dry a bit more, then epoxy tarred her ,no problems for years after.Perhaps a bit of baking soda in the water may reduce the flash rust.Princess Auto sometimes sells the  wet blaster attachment for around $100.Doug at SV Seeker has had some success with wet blasting using a high pressure water blaster.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYtbPG1RKgYHe also has a pretty good wet rig using a large air compressor.http://www.svseeker.com/wp/sv-seeker-2/sailboat/sand-blasting/| 34747|34734|2018-01-17 16:25:53|opuspaul|Re: Trimtab|I have no idea why they build keels, skegs or rudders with sharp or blunt edges.   With your methods it is so easy to build using the split pipe method.  If I remember correctly, it only took a few days to cut out and assemble my keel.I saw a fiberglass boat building a new rudder in Fiji after they wrecked the one they had on a reef.  They got some hardwood timber, laminated it, faired it and then glassed it.  It weighed a ton, cost a fortune and took weeks to build.  I was trying to convince them to build a new rudder using your origami methods out of steel but they  thought it would be far too heavy.   In reality, the steel one would have weighed a fraction of what the wood and glass one did and would have been stronger as well.  It probably would also have had a better shape and I am sure it would have cost much less.   I could also have probably done the whole thing to completion in 3 or 4 days.  It was really frustrating to watch people on a budget waste so much time, money and effort but what can you do.....| 34748|34734|2018-01-17 16:26:52|brentswain38|Re: Trimtab|This is why I don't like Evan's habit of leaving the centre pintle out of trimtabs . That, and overall  structural weakness.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-294171047 #ygrps-yiv-294171047ygrps-yiv-437183100 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}It is a fundamental principle of fluid mechanics, that the center of pressure is at the 1/4 cord point, one quarter of the way from the leading edge of an aerodynamic blade/wing to the trailing edge.   However, when the blade/wing experiences flow separation/stall, for instance at too great an angle of attack, then the center of pressure can change, shifting aft, and shifting erratically.  This is good because if the axis of rotation is at the 1/4 chord point, then the blade/wing will tend not turn sideways to the flow.   Throw a styrofoam strip -- the center of mass is in line with the center, the 1/2 chord, so in free motion, it will flip around and around its intermediate dimension, the chord dimension for a wing.   If the leading edge is not perpendicular to the flow, or not parallel to the axis of rotation, then very complicated things can happen to either stabilize or destabilize the system.   A swept wing is more stable.Further, flexibility is something that can cause divergence and turning sideways to the flow.  Do not underestimate the strength of a water flow on a good foil design.   Foils can lift boats out of the water.  A self-steering foil is not much smaller.   A trim tab may be mounted top and bottom unlike a servo-pendulum rig, but, if it is not stiff enough, or too long, it can warp outward.   Also, trim tabs are really famously bad for causing flutter on aircraft wings.   Make the drive mechanism for the trim tab as stiff as possible, to drive up flutter frequency (it wastes more energy) and drive down flutter amplitude.  This will help make the structure more immune to flutter.    Flutter in a water flow can be very serious.  I made a transom hung rudder once that was not sufficiently restrained laterally and at a certain speed, it would start to flutter.   One would swear there was a industrial reciprocating saw cutting through the hull.   The vibration in the tiller told me where it was coming from.   I was afraid it would rip out the pintle and gudgeon.   I slowed down until I got it back to the launch and took it apart and modified it so it was tighter.   Same can happen if the stern tube and rudder stock do not fit reasonably tightly, or the pintle and gudgeon have play in a transom-hung rudder.        24% provides just 1%  stabilization torque to the hydrodynamic blade, which is overcome by the wind vane.   A very optimal balanced design that can lead to very high amplification of the force from the wind vane.   In funny flow situations around the tab, it may do odd things.   A slightly larger margin, and a bigger wind vane would be less efficient, more sluggish, but more robust in not doing funny things.   The difference can be a matter of a 1/64 of an inch -- tabs are very delicate to balance -- gentle touch with a belt sander can make a difference.    I would make it as Brent recommends, and then take the belt sander to it if it is a bit too "lively" / "twitchy".   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trimtab   A guy building servo pendulum rigs in Auckland in the 70s said a 24% lead is a perfect balance.Any more, and  it swings hard over and stays there. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The trimtab photo recently posted, looks like it may have a bit too much balance, and may freely swing hard over, throwing the helm hard over. If that turns  out to be the case, the balance can be easily reduced from the top and  bottom ends. | 34749|34734|2018-01-18 14:40:56|brentswain38|Re: Trimtab|Yes, and when you try to help them, the people you are trying to help, for no personal gain, join in the  pile on, in the subsequent attacks on you.That's what is so special on this site. People here appreciate the help offered, free of charge, with no $175 an hour consulting  fees, and it comes from people with  actual hands on experience.New ideas and innovations are welcome, and discussed with logic, without being instantly attacked and piled on, by people with little or no hands on experience. No  wonder the latter (Like Perry) have tried to sabotage this site.It undermines their scam.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have no idea why they build keels, skegs or rudders with sharp or blunt edges.   With your methods it is so easy to build using the split pipe method.  If I remember correctly, it only took a few days to cut out and assemble my keel.I saw a fiberglass boat building a new rudder in Fiji after they wrecked the one they had on a reef.  They got some hardwood timber, laminated it, faired it and then glassed it.  It weighed a ton, cost a fortune and took weeks to build.  I was trying to convince them to build a new rudder using your origami methods out of steel but they  thought it would be far too heavy.   In reality, the steel one would have weighed a fraction of what the wood and glass one did and would have been stronger as well.  It probably would also have had a better shape and I am sure it would have cost much less.   I could also have probably done the whole thing to completion in 3 or 4 days.  It was really frustrating to watch people on a budget waste so much time, money and effort but what can you do.....| 34750|34750|2018-01-22 13:20:03|brentswain38|Fore and aft trim|Some have made major modifications to my 36, without asking me about them,  which caused the boat to sit low in the stern .Anytime you are building a boat, and want to make modifications which will result in a major weight shift, there is a simple way to eliminate the  chance of it drastically changing the trim. Just  jack it up and put a big piece of shaft under keel at the LCB, and put a couple of sheerlegs at that point. Then, when ballasting  ,put all your ballast inside the hull, but not necessarily in the keel, and shift it around,  until the boat rocks on the shaft. If it balances on the shaft , it will sit level when you launch it.That will tell you where your ballast should end up. A bit low in the bow is no problem, as most of your storage is aft, and when you load them up, most boats will sink in the stern first.Some consider saving some for trim ballast, a waste of time, as where you decide to put heavy gear like  scuba , spare anchors, tools ,water tanks ,etc will give you all the trim control you need.| 34751|34639|2018-01-23 09:48:56|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| Following up on this... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/trump-puts-30-tariff-on-imported-solar-cells-and-modules/ The 30% tariff on solar panels has gone ahead.    It is still yet to be seen how this will affect the market, and whether the tariff will remain. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 9:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/foreign-imports-boom-as-solar-tariff-deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms-position/ Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.     Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time. Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34752|34639|2018-01-23 18:57:35|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I suspect yanks going home from Canada, and elsewhere this fall,  will be going with a lot of new solar panels. Hard to tell apart  from older ones.I think this is part of his delusion that coal can be brought back. Don't underestimate how dense this guy , and his disciples can be.#ygrps-yiv-619036730 #ygrps-yiv-619036730ygrps-yiv-304726611 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Following up on this...https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/trump-puts-30-tariff-on-imported-solar-cells-and-modules/The 30% tariff on solar panels has gone ahead.    It is still yet to be seen how this will affect the market, and whether the tariff will remain.Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 9:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels  >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now:https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/foreign-imports-boom-as-solar-tariff-deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms-position/Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels  I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.    Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time.Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34753|34639|2018-01-23 19:51:44|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time.  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 18:57 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I suspect yanks going home from Canada, and elsewhere this fall,  will be going with a lot of new solar panels. Hard to tell apart  from older ones. I think this is part of his delusion that coal can be brought back. Don't underestimate how dense this guy , and his disciples can be. Following up on this... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/trump-puts-30-tariff-on-imported-solar-cells-and-modules/ The 30% tariff on solar panels has gone ahead.    It is still yet to be seen how this will affect the market, and whether the tariff will remain. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 9:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/foreign-imports-boom-as-solar-tariff-deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms-position/ Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.     Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time. Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34754|34639|2018-01-23 22:55:01|Brian Stannard|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|Remember there is already a tariff on Chinese panels over 100 watts coming into Canada. Has been in effect for 2 years as I recall. On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 3:57 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I suspect yanks going home from Canada, and elsewhere this fall,  will be going with a lot of new solar panels. Hard to tell apart  from older ones.I think this is part of his delusion that coal can be brought back. Don't underestimate how dense this guy , and his disciples can be.Following up on this...https://arstechnica.com/tech- policy/2018/01/trump-puts-30- tariff-on-imported-solar- cells-and-modules/The 30% tariff on solar panels has gone ahead.    It is still yet to be seen how this will affect the market, and whether the tariff will remain.Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 9:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels  >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now:https://arstechnica.com/tech- policy/2018/01/foreign- imports-boom-as-solar-tariff- deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms- position/Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels  I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.    Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time.Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt -- CheersBrian | 34755|34639|2018-01-24 06:42:37|jpronk1|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|I remember reading about Australia making a big announcement about its huge solar installations over a year and how proud they were about it. China had installed more in one month and 10 times as much over the same year. James Sent from my iPhone| 34756|34639|2018-01-24 08:10:03|jpronk1|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|We found the best way to deal with electrical demand was to reduce our consumption. Our big demands from our house bank were our Engel freezer, VHF radio and charging our IPad. We had two old 100 amp panels and our 9.8 had an alternator that would charge the house bank. Being old, we had to aim the panels to the sun for maximum charge. We tried our best to keep it simple. James Sent from my iPhone| 34757|34639|2018-01-24 08:32:30|mountain man|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| Do vhfs and tablets draw that much to drain your battery fast? Martin On Jan 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, "jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   We found the best way to deal with electrical demand was to reduce our consumption. Our big demands from our house bank were our Engel freezer, VHF radio and charging our IPad. We had two old 100 amp panels and our 9.8 had an alternator that would charge the house bank. Being old, we had to aim the panels to the sun for maximum charge. We tried our best to keep it simple. James Sent from my iPhone | 34758|34639|2018-01-24 08:59:55|jpronk1|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|We only had to worry about drainage we were at anchor and it was overcast. Would have loved a small wind turbine for those days Sent from my iPhone| 34759|34639|2018-01-24 11:26:21|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| If one uses a tablet constantly, I have seen them approach 100 Wh / day, assuming a perfectly efficient voltage converting charger, say from 12V to 5V.   I would imagine using a tablet as a chart plotter in top of other more normal tablet uses would reach these levels.   Tablets are really good at energy conservation when idle, so, power saving depends most on letting it idle and sleep.  At this usage level, one would not think of it as a tablet but as an always-on display and computer.   The lowest power commercial laptops I have read about are 15W -- read about that on a sailing forum 10+ years ago and seem to remember it was a very particular Toshiba with an adapter voltage of 12V -- unheard of today.   In reality, 60-75W+ is far more common in laptops.    At 15W, that is 360 Wh/day.  A tablet at 100Wh is a bargain.       100Wh/day is not a lot compared to a 12V/100Ah storage battery - 1,200 Wh - until one starts to consider depth of discharge and aging.   If one aims to keep depth of discharge below 30%, a tablet at as much as 8% can be significant fraction of the budget even on a new battery.   Conversely, If one uses the tablet for a few minutes of WiFi at a time, occasionally throughout the day, like indispensible checks of the weather forecast or such light use, total consumption can be more like 20 Wh/day, which is the small load that people would think of.   I have heard that 1Amp is common on vhf radios that do not have any sort of low power idle state.   Mine draws an amp.  That is 12Ah a day or again, about 8% of a 12V/100Ah storage battery.    More than half of the 30% budget is gone just from an idle radio, and an always-on tablet.   The other large power draw might be refrigeration, but at least there, if one is building the box of the cooler and using a holding plate, one can design more insulation into the cabinet -- there are engineering solutions and tradeoffs.   If one thinks of the outer dimensions of the refrigeration box being limited, thicker insulation means smaller internal capacity.   When one builds it themselves, one can also take greater pains to make sure the insulation does not build up condensation and become less insulating, increasing power consumption to maintain a thermostatic temperature setting.    I once got a freezer made in 1962 for the labour of getting it out of a basement.   It was enormously heavy and a struggle for 2 average sized guys.  After getting it out and on the truck, I left it in my driveway for a week in the sun.   It dripped water from the insulation for a week straight and I swear it weighed less than half as much by the end.  It worked OK for years but I noticed it started running more and more, despite ordinary, thorough, regular defrostings.  I became convinced that another week in the sun was needed and at that point it was just time for a new freezer.  It took 3 professional appliance movers, enormous guys, to get it out of my basement when I finally junked it.  I think of this every time I consider refrigeration in a boat.        Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 8:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     Do vhfs and tablets draw that much to drain your battery fast? Martin On Jan 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, "jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   We found the best way to deal with electrical demand was to reduce our consumption. Our big demands from our house bank were our Engel freezer, VHF radio and charging our IPad. We had two old 100 amp panels and our 9.8 had an alternator that would charge the house bank. Being old, we had to aim the panels to the sun for maximum charge. We tried our best to keep it simple. James Sent from my iPhone | 34760|34639|2018-01-24 14:32:02|jpronk1|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|It’s funny, we never left our IPad on all the time. When we were in channels we followed the channel markers and when we were in open water we would sail to compass bearings. We only checked the iPad every half hour to an hour or as needed when we were in a tricky spot. James Sent from my iPhone| 34761|34639|2018-01-24 14:36:08|jpronk1|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|Here is a link to my son’s YouTube video on our trip last year and how we lived on our boathttps://youtu.be/XmYGFY27VGIhttps://youtu.be/TSwsB4VLp7AHope you enjoy JamesSent from my iPhone| 34762|34639|2018-01-24 14:49:50|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The most practical place for alternatives is stationary energy production, and that is where efforts should be concentrated , for the best results.No way can battery storage  compete with the energy output of  combustion. It will be a long time before it can.Conservation of energy, in ways like public transport, insulation, etc, can accomplish  a lot more At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time.  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 18:57 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I suspect yanks going home from Canada, and elsewhere this fall,  will be going with a lot of new solar panels. Hard to tell apart  from older ones. I think this is part of his delusion that coal can be brought back. Don't underestimate how dense this guy , and his disciples can be. Following up on this... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/trump-puts-30-tariff-on-imported-solar-cells-and-modules/ The 30% tariff on solar panels has gone ahead.    It is still yet to be seen how this will affect the market, and whether the tariff will remain. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 9:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     >Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    As for why there are deals on solar panels now: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/foreign-imports-boom-as-solar-tariff-deadline-looms-itc-reaffirms-position/ Apparently Trump has tariffs planned and a lot of panels are being shipped in before the tariffs start.    If one wants to read something into that, it might be that panel prices will not be this low again for some time.   Then again maybe not, one can predict little lately.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     I am on the promotion mailing list for ML Solar because I bought from them once.   From time to time they have a good sale worth posting about.   This time is it Canadian Solar brand panels, CS6X310P -- 310 Watt panels for USD$160 / $170 each for full skids, 25+ / smaller orders respectively.     Yes, it is bizarre that one can buy "Canadian Solar" panels from an American bulk seller cheaper than one can by Canadian Solar panels in Canada.    I once met the president at a presentation and pinned him down on this point.   His answer was vague but could be interpreted to mean, they price them to get a bigger slice of the microFIT profits (government subsidies to panel owners) in Canada, so Canadians are charged more for the same thing.     Yes, these are about half the normal price.   Yes, I am cautious why this might be the case.    You cannot find their emailed promotion sales on their website, you have to call and ask them about them.   You can get on their promotion mailing list very easily if something like this is of interest to you maybe another time. Yes, one enters the territory of commercial shipping for any solar panel order.   Anyone who has done a commercial-sized purchase before has dealt with it, and knows the shipping / pickup / delivery / loading / customs / customs broker (look it up, this will be the biggest shock) costs or getting it shipped to a depot in the States and then carrying it back through customs oneself -- just pay the Canadian tax is my experience.   Always buy shipping insurance on the order.   If one is building an entire boat and sailing to foreign countries this should be child's play.    If one has not done a commercial-sized purchase before, it will be more complex than ordering something from Amazon, but as long as one remains realistic (have a truck, trailer, all the paperwork and all your PPE at the pickup point), it is not hard to do.  One can save a lot of money and have a very capable solar power system, with panels left over for the boat.   Remember, in the driest part of the New Mexico desert, on a dark-blue sky day, in the middle of summer, they will produce about 310 Watts for a few hours.   Even in Florida (humidity-haze turns the sky light blue) they will produce less power.   Best case, one is looking at about $0.20-$0.50 cents of electricity per panel per day, at grid-costs, in the summer.   This is not a ticket to energy independence in a house without a lot of calculations, a lot of panels and a lot of batteries.   But if one is clever about it, at $160, they might pay forth themselves in a few years without a government subsidy plan and from that point on, any power one does get from them is free.   A couple of panels like this on a boat would cover modest necessities, with a good charge controller.    Again I will say, a 24V house battery system would be an efficiency benefit when operating from 30-35 Volt panels -- 30V to 12V MPPT controllers are not as efficient as 24V ones.    Two identical 12V loads paired together in series (they both activate at the same time with one switch) can be run from 24V.   The only issue then is unique 12V loads that cannot be paired and for that one needs an independent 12V system.  One needs that to start the engine anyway.    Matt | 34763|34639|2018-01-24 17:50:57|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| Your boat looks very similar in layout and internal finishings, and even fittings to my 1971 Grampian 23.   I know they made a 26, but I do not know about a 27.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels     Here is a link to my son’s YouTube video on our trip last year and how we lived on our boat https://youtu.be/XmYGFY27VGI https://youtu.be/TSwsB4VLp7A How my family is living on a 27 foot sailboat for a year youtu.be My family is travelling on America's Great Loop for a year. I did a video showing a speech I wrote on America's Great Loop. I have had some people asking how... Hope you enjoy  James Sent from my iPhone | 34764|34639|2018-01-25 08:24:38|mountain man|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate. | 34765|34639|2018-01-25 16:07:02|Matt Malone|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| No rush to answer, so, I will say I have used it on eaves-troughs.  It is a sticky slimy mess.  Wiping it from hands and tools just seems to coat more surfaces with it.  I threw out rag after rag and still had it all over my hands and tools, no headway seems could be made.   By the end of it, it was all over my clothes.   It seemed to stick and smear on everything.  I hated every moment of getting it applied.  It took forever to "skin over" until the surface was not sticky.   I have no doubt, if I cut the sealing surfaces apart today, the inside would still be a gooey mess.   It has remained sealed outdoors in an exposed area, despite freezing and thawing and running water and scraping out leaves with a hockey stick.  In a sufficient geometry, I get the impression it would be a very long-lasting seal against water under no particular pressure in thick gaps, and quite good against water under moderate pressure in very tight-fitting stable interfaces like mating surfaces and threads. One can buy a tube of eaves-trough butyl seal and try it on something leaky around the house or farm, as a $8 experiment of the concept, before buying the marine seal.       Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate. | 34766|34639|2018-01-25 18:34:01|brentswain38|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|One trick the Brits use for deck fittings on plastic boats, is raising the fibreglass under deck fittings, so that the water doesn't sit against your bedding. On existing boats, you an cut fibreglass rounds out of old abandoned boats ,and put them down in epoxy soaked  fibreglass matt, then bed your stanchion bases, cleats , handrails, etc on top of  them .There is no way the epoxy  fibreglass to deck seal will  flex before the bedding compound does,and  water  wont sit against that  which is 1/4 inch above the deck level.| 34767|34639|2018-01-25 19:07:56|Darren Bos|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| I think you guys are talking about different products??  The butyl I know for sealing windows and ports is butyl tape and it is one of the greatest things going on boats.  As long as what you're sealing has a strong mechanical connection, like many aluminum/bronze framed ports, then it is much nicer to use and longer lasting than any of the products that come out of a caulking tube.  I think of it as the "anti-5200".  It doesn't offer any bond strength, but stays watertight almost indefinitely and if it does fail it is easy and quick to remove and replace (I once spent days removing ports that had been bedded in 5200).  It is also very neat to work with.  It is tacking, but not gooey or sticky, which makes installation very clean.  To apply, you just unroll it onto the frame, bolt the frame into place, let it slowly extrude any extra and finally trim around the frame with a knife and pull away excess.  If you don't need your sealant to provide a mechanical bond this is the best stuff going.  I haven't used the stuff in the link above, I've got mine from a local RV place.  There are a couple of different varieties to watch for.  There is grey putty or a putty-butyl hybrid compound and you DO NOT want that stuff, it eventually dries and cracks.  Also available in grey, is 100% butyl tape, this is the good stuff, it costs a little more but lasts so long that the amortized cost is trivial. Darren On 18-01-25 01:07 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   No rush to answer, so, I will say I have used it on eaves-troughs.  It is a sticky slimy mess.  Wiping it from hands and tools just seems to coat more surfaces with it.  I threw out rag after rag and still had it all over my hands and tools, no headway seems could be made.   By the end of it, it was all over my clothes.   It seemed to stick and smear on everything.  I hated every moment of getting it applied.  It took forever to "skin over" until the surface was not sticky.   I have no doubt, if I cut the sealing surfaces apart today, the inside would still be a gooey mess.   It has remained sealed outdoors in an exposed area, despite freezing and thawing and running water and scraping out leaves with a hockey stick.  In a sufficient geometry, I get the impression it would be a very long-lasting seal against water under no particular pressure in thick gaps, and quite good against water under moderate pressure in very tight-fitting stable interfaces like mating surfaces and threads. One can buy a tube of eaves-trough butyl seal and try it on something leaky around the house or farm, as a $8 experiment of the concept, before buying the marine seal.       Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate. | 34768|34639|2018-01-25 19:08:22|Neil Ramsey|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|Check out www.marinehowto.comThere is a tutorial on how to use butyl tape.  This guy really knows his stuff.I've been using it for the last 10 years with perfect results.sent via Samsung Galaxy.  Blame android autotext for mistakes    On Jan 25, 2018 3:37 PM, "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   One trick the Brits use for deck fittings on plastic boats, is raising the fibreglass under deck fittings, so that the water doesn't sit against your bedding. On existing boats, you an cut fibreglass rounds out of old abandoned boats ,and put them down in epoxy soaked  fibreglass matt, then bed your stanchion bases, cleats , handrails, etc on top of  them .There is no way the epoxy  fibreglass to deck seal will  flex before the bedding compound does,and  water  wont sit against that  which is 1/4 inch above the deck level. | 34769|34639|2018-01-25 22:26:32|Brian Stannard|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|Butyl is a very good sealant for deck fittings. The proper butyl does not come in a tube but in a roll with paper on one side so it doesn't stick to itself. It never skins over. A good marine store should have it, costs about 8 or 10 dollars a roll and since it never dries out the leftover butyl will last for years, unlike Sika or other sealants. My boat - a CS27 - was built with butyl under all deck fittings and the hull/deck joint. No problem in 40 years and if I pull a small piece off what has squeezed out from the hull/deck join it is as pliable as new. Best used where there are bolts for pressure, not screws.Here's a link to using it for deck fittings.  http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 1:07 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   No rush to answer, so, I will say I have used it on eaves-troughs.  It is a sticky slimy mess.  Wiping it from hands and tools just seems to coat more surfaces with it.  I threw out rag after rag and still had it all over my hands and tools, no headway seems could be made.   By the end of it, it was all over my clothes.   It seemed to stick and smear on everything.  I hated every moment of getting it applied.  It took forever to "skin over" until the surface was not sticky.   I have no doubt, if I cut the sealing surfaces apart today, the inside would still be a gooey mess.   It has remained sealed outdoors in an exposed area, despite freezing and thawing and running water and scraping out leaves with a hockey stick.  In a sufficient geometry, I get the impression it would be a very long-lasting seal against water under no particular pressure in thick gaps, and quite good against water under moderate pressure in very tight-fitting stable interfaces like mating surfaces and threads. One can buy a tube of eaves-trough butyl seal and try it on something leaky around the house or farm, as a $8 experiment of the concept, before buying the marine seal.       Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate. -- CheersBrian | 34770|34639|2018-01-26 11:11:38|Matt Malone|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| Yes, different products. I have also used butyl tape, in vacuum bagging in composite layups.  It is an excellent material.  I have never used it cold and wet.  After the composite cure cycle at 350F, it was still tough and sealing. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 20:48 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I think you guys are talking about different products??  The butyl I know for sealing windows and ports is butyl tape and it is one of the greatest things going on boats.  As long as what you're sealing has a strong mechanical connection, like many aluminum/bronze framed ports, then it is much nicer to use and longer lasting than any of the products that come out of a caulking tube.  I think of it as the "anti-5200".  It doesn't offer any bond strength, but stays watertight almost indefinitely and if it does fail it is easy and quick to remove and replace (I once spent days removing ports that had been bedded in 5200).  It is also very neat to work with.  It is tacking, but not gooey or sticky, which makes installation very clean.  To apply, you just unroll it onto the frame, bolt the frame into place, let it slowly extrude any extra and finally trim around the frame with a knife and pull away excess.  If you don't need your sealant to provide a mechanical bond this is the best stuff going.  I haven't used the stuff in the link above, I've got mine from a local RV place.  There are a couple of different varieties to watch for.  There is grey putty or a putty-butyl hybrid compound and you DO NOT want that stuff, it eventually dries and cracks.  Also available in grey, is 100% butyl tape, this is the good stuff, it costs a little more but lasts so long that the amortized cost is trivial. Darren On 18-01-25 01:07 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   No rush to answer, so, I will say I have used it on eaves-troughs.  It is a sticky slimy mess.  Wiping it from hands and tools just seems to coat more surfaces with it.  I threw out rag after rag and still had it all over my hands and tools, no headway seems could be made.   By the end of it, it was all over my clothes.   It seemed to stick and smear on everything.  I hated every moment of getting it applied.  It took forever to "skin over" until the surface was not sticky.   I have no doubt, if I cut the sealing surfaces apart today, the inside would still be a gooey mess.   It has remained sealed outdoors in an exposed area, despite freezing and thawing and running water and scraping out leaves with a hockey stick.  In a sufficient geometry, I get the impression it would be a very long-lasting seal against water under no particular pressure in thick gaps, and quite good against water under moderate pressure in very tight-fitting stable interfaces like mating surfaces and threads. One can buy a tube of eaves-trough butyl seal and try it on something leaky around the house or farm, as a $8 experiment of the concept, before buying the marine seal.       Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate. | 34771|34639|2018-01-28 13:18:29|garyhlucas|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| The real problem with deck leaks on all kinds of boats comes from bad joint design.  Chainplates plates on fiberglass boats move, on ALL boats, and a lot!  Every type of sealant has a range of motion it can tolerate without debonding from the substrate.  In the case of silicones for instance they can compress to half their thickness, stretch to twice their thickness, or move laterally equal to their thickness.  Window glass in buildings move like crazy, and you see a really wide bead between panes to allow expansion and contraction and wind motion from breaking it loose. Then on a boat they screw down a stainess cover plate that looks nice and shears the sealant right off as the chainplate moves up and down.  On stanchions and other fittings the sealant gets squeezed down to a few thousands of thickness, meaning any motion in any direction breaks the seal.  I install large pipe flanges, up to 19” diameter in polyethyene tanks at my job.  Essentially boats inside out.  We cut the face of the flanges to match the curvature of the tank inside and out.  We then have have to carefully check the wall thickness around the hole, and if practical use a gasket whose thickness is at least twice the variation of the wall thickness.  Otherwise we have to carefully cut down the bumps on the wall until they are less than 1/2 the gasket thickness.  For bolts we use partially threaded bolts with a washer under the head and a tight fitting O-ring around the bolt.  However the face of the flange gets chamfered according to the Parker O-ring handbook dimensions so it is deflected but not overstressed which causing cracking.  Doing it this way we never gets leaks in tanks that 14 feet of water in them.   So nearly every sealant can work perfectly in a joint properly designed for it.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 11:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware   Yes, different products. I have also used butyl tape, in vacuum bagging in composite layups.  It is an excellent material.  I have never used it cold and wet.  After the composite cure cycle at 350F, it was still tough and sealing. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 20:48 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I think you guys are talking about different products??  The butyl I know for sealing windows and ports is butyl tape and it is one of the greatest things going on boats.  As long as what you're sealing has a strong mechanical connection, like many aluminum/bronze framed ports, then it is much nicer to use and longer lasting than any of the products that come out of a caulking tube.  I think of it as the "anti-5200".  It doesn't offer any bond strength, but stays watertight almost indefinitely and if it does fail it is easy and quick to remove and replace (I once spent days removing ports that had been bedded in 5200).  It is also very neat to work with.  It is tacking, but not gooey or sticky, which makes installation very clean.  To apply, you just unroll it onto the frame, bolt the frame into place, let it slowly extrude any extra and finally trim around the frame with a knife and pull away excess.  If you don't need your sealant to provide a mechanical bond this is the best stuff going.  I haven't used the stuff in the link above, I've got mine from a local RV place.  There are a couple of different varieties to watch for.  There is grey putty or a putty-butyl hybrid compound and you DO NOT want that stuff, it eventually dries and cracks.  Also available in grey, is 100% butyl tape, this is the good stuff, it costs a little more but lasts so long that the amortized cost is trivial. Darren On 18-01-25 01:07 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: No rush to answer, so, I will say I have used it on eaves-troughs.  It is a sticky slimy mess.  Wiping it from hands and tools just seems to coat more surfaces with it.  I threw out rag after rag and still had it all over my hands and tools, no headway seems could be made.   By the end of it, it was all over my clothes.   It seemed to stick and smear on everything.  I hated every moment of getting it applied.  It took forever to "skin over" until the surface was not sticky.   I have no doubt, if I cut the sealing surfaces apart today, the inside would still be a gooey mess.   It has remained sealed outdoors in an exposed area, despite freezing and thawing and running water and scraping out leaves with a hockey stick.  In a sufficient geometry, I get the impression it would be a very long-lasting seal against water under no particular pressure in thick gaps, and quite good against water under moderate pressure in very tight-fitting stable interfaces like mating surfaces and threads. One can buy a tube of eaves-trough butyl seal and try it on something leaky around the house or farm, as a $8 experiment of the concept, before buying the marine seal.       Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate.   | 34772|34639|2018-01-28 14:11:10|Matt Malone|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware| Gary has it absolutely right.  Thick joints are not for strength, they are to accommodate some displacement.   The same displacement spread over a thicker bead is less shear strain.  Less shear strain means the sealant lasts longer.   I can only imagine people who are having serial or constant leak problems, in their frustration must be torquing down the thing to be mounted and squeezing the bead to nothing, actually counter to what is better for the sealant.   I can appreciate the frustration.   I was in a foul mood the entire time I was fixing and sealing my deck up.  I was alternately cursing the designers, and the cursing the mess of the materials because my introduction to composites was not syrupy epoxy and fibres and a squeegee, but aerospace pre-pregs and vacuum bagging and autoclaving.   It took quite some practice self-taught with the squeegee to get to a state where I am reasonably happy with my composites the next day.   I am still in a foul mood on the day I am doing the wet-work with them or sealants.   By contrast, I am invariably happy when I weld.   A poor weld does not make me curse.   Typically, I care so little, I rarely grind out a bad spot in a weld.  I just get the 6011 slag off, put in the thick 7018AC rod, crank the amps, start the arc pool, and then using the heat of the high amps, I force the rod in to deeper penetration and viciously remelt all the metal in the entire bad spot, stirring it up and making it smooth.   7018AC seems to penetrate and remelt bad 6011 better than it penetrates the raw steel.  My buzz box welder groans satisfyingly, like it is really accomplishing something.  Structurally, that quarter or half inch spot of weld is probably not as good as it could be, but welding really does not bother me like working with epoxy and sealants.   So I fully understand how a problem at a troublesome epoxy/sealant joint might seem very disheartening, and unsolvable.          Again, I used top grade silicon from a regular hardware store, in thick beads under backing and fronting plates, and let those cure thoroughly in the hot sun, for a week, before bolting down the hardware -- bolting down the hardware did not squeeze any silicon out.   Butyl tape is likely to be a far better material, as would virtually any other sealant designed for a long lifetime on boats.  Butyl caulk, because of its forever snotty/greasy consistency, could just fill the cracks in the same sense as toilet wax or grease and for that reason maintain a seal.  The commercial/industrial sealants used to hold windows into large buildings have to be really good stuff too -- water blown by 40-60 mph winds is not uncommon on the upper stories.  If every one of them leaked, that would be pretty awful in a building with hundreds of windows.   Apart from all the marine and non-marine high-quality sealant options, plain Jane hardware store silicon of good quality can work too.   I cannot remember what the tube said, but I think it was exterior and commercial bathroom or something like that.   I think it cost 50% more than budget silicon on the next shelf.  It certainly was not twice the price. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2018 1:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     The real problem with deck leaks on all kinds of boats comes from bad joint design.  Chainplates plates on fiberglass boats move, on ALL boats, and a lot!  Every type of sealant has a range of motion it can tolerate without debonding from the substrate.  In the case of silicones for instance they can compress to half their thickness, stretch to twice their thickness, or move laterally equal to their thickness.  Window glass in buildings move like crazy, and you see a really wide bead between panes to allow expansion and contraction and wind motion from breaking it loose. Then on a boat they screw down a stainess cover plate that looks nice and shears the sealant right off as the chainplate moves up and down.  On stanchions and other fittings the sealant gets squeezed down to a few thousands of thickness, meaning any motion in any direction breaks the seal.  I install large pipe flanges, up to 19” diameter in polyethyene tanks at my job.  Essentially boats inside out.  We cut the face of the flanges to match the curvature of the tank inside and out.  We then have have to carefully check the wall thickness around the hole, and if practical use a gasket whose thickness is at least twice the variation of the wall thickness.  Otherwise we have to carefully cut down the bumps on the wall until they are less than 1/2 the gasket thickness.  For bolts we use partially threaded bolts with a washer under the head and a tight fitting O-ring around the bolt.  However the face of the flange gets chamfered according to the Parker O-ring handbook dimensions so it is deflected but not overstressed which causing cracking.  Doing it this way we never gets leaks in tanks that 14 feet of water in them.   So nearly every sealant can work perfectly in a joint properly designed for it.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 11:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware   Yes, different products. I have also used butyl tape, in vacuum bagging in composite layups.  It is an excellent material.  I have never used it cold and wet.  After the composite cure cycle at 350F, it was still tough and sealing. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 20:48 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I think you guys are talking about different products??  The butyl I know for sealing windows and ports is butyl tape and it is one of the greatest things going on boats.  As long as what you're sealing has a strong mechanical connection, like many aluminum/bronze framed ports, then it is much nicer to use and longer lasting than any of the products that come out of a caulking tube.  I think of it as the "anti-5200".  It doesn't offer any bond strength, but stays watertight almost indefinitely and if it does fail it is easy and quick to remove and replace (I once spent days removing ports that had been bedded in 5200).  It is also very neat to work with.  It is tacking, but not gooey or sticky, which makes installation very clean.  To apply, you just unroll it onto the frame, bolt the frame into place, let it slowly extrude any extra and finally trim around the frame with a knife and pull away excess.  If you don't need your sealant to provide a mechanical bond this is the best stuff going.  I haven't used the stuff in the link above, I've got mine from a local RV place.  There are a couple of different varieties to watch for.  There is grey putty or a putty-butyl hybrid compound and you DO NOT want that stuff, it eventually dries and cracks.  Also available in grey, is 100% butyl tape, this is the good stuff, it costs a little more but lasts so long that the amortized cost is trivial. Darren On 18-01-25 01:07 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: No rush to answer, so, I will say I have used it on eaves-troughs.  It is a sticky slimy mess.  Wiping it from hands and tools just seems to coat more surfaces with it.  I threw out rag after rag and still had it all over my hands and tools, no headway seems could be made.   By the end of it, it was all over my clothes.   It seemed to stick and smear on everything.  I hated every moment of getting it applied.  It took forever to "skin over" until the surface was not sticky.   I have no doubt, if I cut the sealing surfaces apart today, the inside would still be a gooey mess.   It has remained sealed outdoors in an exposed area, despite freezing and thawing and running water and scraping out leaves with a hockey stick.  In a sufficient geometry, I get the impression it would be a very long-lasting seal against water under no particular pressure in thick gaps, and quite good against water under moderate pressure in very tight-fitting stable interfaces like mating surfaces and threads. One can buy a tube of eaves-trough butyl seal and try it on something leaky around the house or farm, as a $8 experiment of the concept, before buying the marine seal.       Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware     Does anyone have experience with that butyl sealant for cabin top and pilothouse? Martin On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:04 PM, "opusnz@yahoo..ca [origamiboats]" wrote:   I have never had any hardware leak that was bedded down with soft non-hardening butyl sealant on a cork gasket.  It offers no mechanical strength so you still need good sound fasteners but you can take the hardware up 20 years later and still have a sticky gooey mess that water won't be able to penetrate.   | 34773|34639|2018-01-28 17:49:04|brentswain38|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|This clearly demonstrates the huge advantage in metal boats, when it comes to eliminating leaks. ZERO such problems with welded down cleats, stanchions , chain plates, pad eyes, mooring bits,   handrails ,etc. Nothing  which can be welded down should be bolted down on a steel boat, except sheet winches.I once installed a stainless opening port in a wheelhouse. I took the lens out and welded the frame, corner to corner in the opening. No hidden spaces under flanges , for rust to accumulate unseen. Everything open for the epoxy.It had a sloped down frame to shed water from the seal. That matched perfectly the forward slope of the front of the wheelhouse. So I switched the hinges for the  tie downs, etc. and it gave the perfect slope for the wheelhouse front.I have a plexi port set in flush in my bow.  Leaks a bit.. Next time I get the plexi out, I  will cut a groove all around the outside of it to take an O ring. That O ring should  give  a long lasting  seal against the stainless frame. That trick should work well for any plexi set in stainless frame.| 34774|34639|2018-01-28 18:19:31|brentswain38|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|I guess on e could simply spread a 1/8th inch layer of silicone on, with nothing  on top ,let it harden, then bed the fitting on top of that. Zero chance of forcing all the silicone out.| 34775|34639|2018-01-28 20:24:51|Neil Ramsey|Re: Sealing Leaking Deck Hardware|The problem with silicone is that, if it skins over, it will not stick to the surface and it makes a lousy gasket.  To work properly it has to be applied to clean surfaces, tightened carefully to leave a relatively thick bed of silicone, then allowed to cure without movement.  Then, unless the forces trying to move it are small, it must be mechanically held so it virtually can't move.Butyl tape makes an incredibly good gasket because it stays flexible and sticks to itself even better than it sticks to any clean surface.  Unfortunately it won't work where it is in contact with diesel or gasoline. On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 2:52 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I guess on e could simply spread a 1/8th inch layer of silicone on, with nothing  on top ,let it harden, then bed the fitting on top of that. Zero chance of forcing all the silicone out. | 34776|34639|2018-01-30 23:46:20|Hannu Venermo|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| I used to sell CNC machines to guys who make industrially car gearboxes and engines. Like Nissan, and gearbox, madrid, employing 50 guys. A current medium sedan engine costs == 3000€, 120-150 bhp. In qty 200k / yr. The gearbox == same. An electrical engine in a Tesla, 28 kg mass, == 500 $ marginal cost, for 500 hp peak. Or from fushiba japan who made them. The sindle-stage reversing gear == 500$ marginal cost as well for a high-mass high power tesla of 2000 kg / 400 hp++. Fossil fuels are already irrelevant, and the only gating factor is commercially-available lion battery energy density vs cost. Vs global availability in the short term of precursor materials, mostly cadmium (nickel). At 20 Mj/kg theoretical, diesel engines deliver about == same range as 100 kWh lion batteries in a Tesla S, today. The diesel == 5-8x less efficient. On 24/01/2018 01:51, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time.  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34777|34777|2018-01-31 01:06:37|inter4905|Origami hull thickness|Hi Brent, How long can we build an origami sailboat hull using 3/16 thick steel before having to increase to 1/4 thick? Martin| 34778|34778|2018-01-31 03:51:05|aguysailing|Gilligans Island|This is about as close to Gilligans Island adventure as it gets in real life.  Lots of laughs in this one and some impressive ocean sailing scenes.   Great bit of video for a long evening, shorebound on the wet coast of BC.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr7MWxADnko| 34779|34558|2018-01-31 04:10:26|jalborey|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Hola Juan,Me alegro de tu compra, y te envidio. Creo que Brent ha comentado en un mensaje anterior que vende su libro en español a 25 dólares. Su dirección es Brent Swain3798 Laurel DrRoyston BCCanadaV0R2V0 Lo que ignoro es qué medio de pago utiliza ahora. Si quieres comunicarte con él pero tienes problemas de idioma, encantado de echarte una mano. Brent siempre está dispuesto a resolver cualquier duda que tengas con los diseños o la construcción de sus barcos.Un saludo muy cordial y suerte con tu proyecto!| 34780|34558|2018-01-31 04:17:17|jalborey|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Hola, Juan. Llevo un tiempo sin entrar en el grupo y no había leído tu mensaje. Creo que los datos de envío y pago ya te los ha recordado Brent. Brent está siempre dispuesto a resolver las dudas que te surjan en la construcción o acastillaje del barco y sus consejos son impagables. Si tienes dificultades con el idioma, yo te echo una mano encantado. Google Translator y similares no son precisos y a veces juegan muy malas pasadas. Mucho ánimo con tu proyecto, mantennos informados!Jesús| 34781|34639|2018-01-31 04:43:53|Jfisher|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|Cobalt is the big driver in lipo battery supply and cost.  Ice engines are about 3x less efficient under heavy load as electric.   In cars you can improve on that due to increased aerodynamics.  Not so in sailing boat that is motoring.  The epa assumes 33.7 kWh equals the energy of one gallon of gas, diesel is about 10% higher. So about 36 kWh per gallon of diesel.  That makes a 100kwh battery contain about the energy of 3 gallons of diesel.   Luckily with 3 X the efficiency you can go about the distance of 9 gallons.  Not very far or very long for an engine that consumes a couple of gallon per hour. Then you have weight, size, and cost of the battery to overcome.  Even if we get to the magical point of $100/kWh which they assume is cost parity for auto's a 100kwh pack is still $10k.  Today it's almost $20k.  Add to that a dc/ac controller and you are not talking $500 to power a boat.  I like electric power and own an electric car, but it is not ready and IMHO will never be ready to replace ice technology completely until there is another breakthrough in batteries that allows higher energy density. Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2018, at 10:32, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I used to sell CNC machines to guys who make industrially car gearboxes and engines. Like Nissan, and gearbox, madrid, employing 50 guys. A current medium sedan engine costs == 3000€, 120-150 bhp. In qty 200k / yr. The gearbox == same. An electrical engine in a Tesla, 28 kg mass, == 500 $ marginal cost, for 500 hp peak. Or from fushiba japan who made them. The sindle-stage reversing gear == 500$ marginal cost as well for a high-mass high power tesla of 2000 kg / 400 hp++. Fossil fuels are already irrelevant, and the only gating factor is commercially-available lion battery energy density vs cost. Vs global availability in the short term of precursor materials, mostly cadmium (nickel). At 20 Mj/kg theoretical, diesel engines deliver about == same range as 100 kWh lion batteries in a Tesla S, today. The diesel == 5-8x less efficient. On 24/01/2018 01:51, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time.  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34782|34639|2018-01-31 07:25:20|mountain man|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| Cant you have a smaller battery bank as a buffer in addition to a diesel generator and acheive good performance? On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:05 AM, "Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Cobalt is the big driver in lipo battery supply and cost.  Ice engines are about 3x less efficient under heavy load as electric.   In cars you can improve on that due to increased aerodynamics.  Not so in sailing boat that is motoring.  The epa assumes 33.7 kWh equals the energy of one gallon of gas, diesel is about 10% higher. So about 36 kWh per gallon of diesel.  That makes a 100kwh battery contain about the energy of 3 gallons of diesel.   Luckily with 3 X the efficiency you can go about the distance of 9 gallons.  Not very far or very long for an engine that consumes a couple of gallon per hour.  Then you have weight, size, and cost of the battery to overcome.  Even if we get to the magical point of $100/kWh which they assume is cost parity for auto's a 100kwh pack is still $10k.  Today it's almost $20k.  Add to that a dc/ac controller and you are not talking $500 to power a boat.   I like electric power and own an electric car, but it is not ready and IMHO will never be ready to replace ice technology completely until there is another breakthrough in batteries that allows higher energy density.  Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2018, at 10:32, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I used to sell CNC machines to guys who make industrially car gearboxes and engines. Like Nissan, and gearbox, madrid, employing 50 guys. A current medium sedan engine costs == 3000€, 120-150 bhp. In qty 200k / yr. The gearbox == same. An electrical engine in a Tesla, 28 kg mass, == 500 $ marginal cost, for 500 hp peak. Or from fushiba japan who made them. The sindle-stage reversing gear == 500$ marginal cost as well for a high-mass high power tesla of 2000 kg / 400 hp++. Fossil fuels are already irrelevant, and the only gating factor is commercially-available lion battery energy density vs cost. Vs global availability in the short term of precursor materials, mostly cadmium (nickel). At 20 Mj/kg theoretical, diesel engines deliver about == same range as 100 kWh lion batteries in a Tesla S, today. The diesel == 5-8x less efficient. On 24/01/2018 01:51, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time.  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34783|34639|2018-01-31 08:09:19|Jfisher|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|You can, but they are quickly depleted and then you run the diesel anyway.  I know someone who bought such a system and then redid it to be diesel only.  They found that the generator ran all the time as the battery was small, so why deal with the batteries at all.  The crux of the issue is batteries only hold a small amount of energy compared to a gallon of diesel.   If you do the math the other way, a gallon of diesel holds 36kwh of energy, so that means you can get ~ 12kwh usable power from every gallon.  A 12kwh pack is pretty big and would cost ~$2400 today.  To simply hold a milk jug worth of diesel energy.  How far can you go on a gallon?Sent from my iPad On Jan 31, 2018, at 05:25, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Cant you have a smaller battery bank as a buffer in addition to a diesel generator and acheive good performance? On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:05 AM, "Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Cobalt is the big driver in lipo battery supply and cost.  Ice engines are about 3x less efficient under heavy load as electric.   In cars you can improve on that due to increased aerodynamics.  Not so in sailing boat that is motoring.  The epa assumes 33.7 kWh equals the energy of one gallon of gas, diesel is about 10% higher. So about 36 kWh per gallon of diesel.  That makes a 100kwh battery contain about the energy of 3 gallons of diesel.   Luckily with 3 X the efficiency you can go about the distance of 9 gallons.  Not very far or very long for an engine that consumes a couple of gallon per hour.  Then you have weight, size, and cost of the battery to overcome.  Even if we get to the magical point of $100/kWh which they assume is cost parity for auto's a 100kwh pack is still $10k.  Today it's almost $20k.  Add to that a dc/ac controller and you are not talking $500 to power a boat.   I like electric power and own an electric car, but it is not ready and IMHO will never be ready to replace ice technology completely until there is another breakthrough in batteries that allows higher energy density.  Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2018, at 10:32, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I used to sell CNC machines to guys who make industrially car gearboxes and engines. Like Nissan, and gearbox, madrid, employing 50 guys. A current medium sedan engine costs == 3000€, 120-150 bhp. In qty 200k / yr. The gearbox == same. An electrical engine in a Tesla, 28 kg mass, == 500 $ marginal cost, for 500 hp peak. Or from fushiba japan who made them. The sindle-stage reversing gear == 500$ marginal cost as well for a high-mass high power tesla of 2000 kg / 400 hp++. Fossil fuels are already irrelevant, and the only gating factor is commercially-available lion battery energy density vs cost. Vs global availability in the short term of precursor materials, mostly cadmium (nickel). At 20 Mj/kg theoretical, diesel engines deliver about == same range as 100 kWh lion batteries in a Tesla S, today. The diesel == 5-8x less efficient. On 24/01/2018 01:51, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time.  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34784|34639|2018-01-31 10:29:06|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| Small diesel and batteries and electric is a linear hybrid, and more complex.  If diesel is the only way to get power in the batteries then  it is a surge advantage, or slip away from a dock quietly advantage.  By surge advantage I mean the electric motor can be higher hp than the diesel giving a short time at high hp, with the diesel running, also running down the batteries.  This is an advantage with transit  buses pulling away from a stop 30-60 times per hour.  Not so much on a boat. If one has another source of electricity into the battery, that is different.  Lets get real, that is a beefy taft rail turbine, 4+ solar panels and two windmills together far exceeding normal electrical loads.  Further on has to enforce energy austerity in the presence of surplus -- it is easy to have one more electrical appliance when one has extra electricity.  In that situation, one can trickle "fuel" into the tank in the middle of nowhere.  Great for 20 minutes to an hour getting in or out of ports.  A zero diesel boat, with a diesel backup.   That would be pretty brilliant.   Might work better on a cat with more deck area for solar, with one diesel and two electric motors. Matt From: Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 08:52 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   You can, but they are quickly depleted and then you run the diesel anyway.  I know someone who bought such a system and then redid it to be diesel only.  They found that the generator ran all the time as the battery was small, so why deal with the batteries at all.   The crux of the issue is batteries only hold a small amount of energy compared to a gallon of diesel.   If you do the math the other way, a gallon of diesel holds 36kwh of energy, so that means you can get ~ 12kwh usable power from every gallon.  A 12kwh pack is pretty big and would cost ~$2400 today.  To simply hold a milk jug worth of diesel energy.  How far can you go on a gallon? Sent from my iPad On Jan 31, 2018, at 05:25, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Cant you have a smaller battery bank as a buffer in addition to a diesel generator and acheive good performance? On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:05 AM, "Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Cobalt is the big driver in lipo battery supply and cost.  Ice engines are about 3x less efficient under heavy load as electric.   In cars you can improve on that due to increased aerodynamics.  Not so in sailing boat that is motoring.  The epa assumes 33.7 kWh equals the energy of one gallon of gas, diesel is about 10% higher. So about 36 kWh per gallon of diesel.  That makes a 100kwh battery contain about the energy of 3 gallons of diesel.   Luckily with 3 X the efficiency you can go about the distance of 9 gallons.  Not very far or very long for an engine that consumes a couple of gallon per hour.  Then you have weight, size, and cost of the battery to overcome.  Even if we get to the magical point of $100/kWh which they assume is cost parity for auto's a 100kwh pack is still $10k.  Today it's almost $20k..  Add to that a dc/ac controller and you are not talking $500 to power a boat.   I like electric power and own an electric car, but it is not ready and IMHO will never be ready to replace ice technology completely until there is another breakthrough in batteries that allows higher energy density.  Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2018, at 10:32, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I used to sell CNC machines to guys who make industrially car gearboxes and engines. Like Nissan, and gearbox, madrid, employing 50 guys. A current medium sedan engine costs == 3000€, 120-150 bhp. In qty 200k / yr. The gearbox == same. An electrical engine in a Tesla, 28 kg mass, == 500 $ marginal cost, for 500 hp peak. Or from fushiba japan who made them. The sindle-stage reversing gear == 500$ marginal cost as well for a high-mass high power tesla of 2000 kg / 400 hp++. Fossil fuels are already irrelevant, and the only gating factor is commercially-available lion battery energy density vs cost. Vs global availability in the short term of precursor materials, mostly cadmium (nickel). At 20 Mj/kg theoretical, diesel engines deliver about == same range as 100 kWh lion batteries in a Tesla S, today. The diesel == 5-8x less efficient. On 24/01/2018 01:51, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: At 40 MJ/kg and engines of 20 lbs per hp or better, it will be very hard to make all fossil fuels completely irrelevant.   Coal is still indispensable in bulk steel production and likely will remain so for some time..  The viable options drop off sharply from there. Electrical generation projects already price out to favour alternative power.   It is doubtful any fossil electrical plants will ever be built again. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34785|34777|2018-01-31 17:35:45|brentswain38|Re: Origami hull thickness|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote I'd switch at around 45 feet:Hi Brent, How long can we build an origami sailboat hull using 3/16 thick steel before having to increase to 1/4 thick? Martin| 34786|34639|2018-01-31 18:03:18|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|In areas of steady 20 knot trade winds, you could get away with electric,and have lots of wind generator , and solar power to recharge, but in windless areas like BC, you would not get very far on a charge.An old Finn in Nanaimo had a dillema when he had a month with no wind or sun , a not  uncommon occurrence here. Burning fuel to generate power means a big efficiency loss in the engine, then the generator, followed by an even bigger loss inefficiency in the battery,then another in the motor, with only a fraction of the original fuel energy  you began with.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :In areas of steady reliable 20 knot trade winds one cpuld getaway witjelec Small diesel and batteries and electric is a linear hybrid, and more complex.  If diesel is the only way to get power in the batteries then  it is a surge advantage, or slip away from a dock quietly advantage.  By surge advantage I mean the electric motor can be higher hp than the diesel giving a short time at high hp, with the diesel running, also running down the batteries.  This is an advantage with transit  buses pulling away from a stop 30-60 times per hour.  Not so much on a boat. If one has another source of electricity into the battery, that is different.  Lets get real, that is a beefy taft rail turbine, 4+ solar panels and two windmills together far exceeding normal electrical loads.  Further on has to enforce energy austerity in the presence of surplus -- it is easy to have one more electrical appliance when one has extra electricity.  In that situation, one can trickle "fuel" into the tank in the middle of nowhere.  Great for 20 minutes to an hour getting in or out of ports.  A zero diesel boat, with a diesel backup.   That would be pretty brilliant.   Might work better on a cat with more deck area for solar, with one diesel and two electric motors. Matt | 34787|34787|2018-02-01 16:28:47|brentswain38|Epoxy inside|A friend just tried to save yet another commercially built steel boat ( Foulkes), with no epoxy inside,  under the foam. Wherever he tried to  weld  a patch on, he found the steel beyond the patch super thin. The epoxy on the  outside was just fine. Sad to see boat after boat lost that way, for lack of a few days work and a  bit of epoxy, a tiny portion of the time and money spent on such boats.With adequate epoxy inside, the boat could  have gone on for decades with  no such problems.| 34788|34639|2018-02-01 16:34:57|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels|Last night  I attended a University of Quadra  forum on clean energy for boaters. Very  interesting. The guy mentioned carbon foam batteries, which sound very interesting. He said one was  left absolutely dead for  a year, yet had no problem taking a charge and holding it  a year later.Given all the problems I have had with batteries left low for too long , and the cost of replacing them, at less than double the cost of a standard deep cycle, lead acid battery ,they may be well worth the price.| 34789|34789|2018-02-01 16:49:25|brentswain38|Double paned glas windows|I have heard of some spending exorbitant amounts of money on double paned glass for their ports.In over 45 years of living aboard, mostly  in BC, I haven't ever seen the need , nor any benefit of going for such an expense.Condensation on ports has not been a problem. In the morning, when I stoke the wood  stove  a bit, it only lasts a few minutes, then my ports are dry. | 34790|34789|2018-02-01 17:16:49|prairiemaidca|Re: Double paned glas windows|     I've not been bothered by a little condensation on my ports either Brent,  but I did think that if I was to live aboard on the west coast all winter I'd just go to the hardware store and cover all of Prairie Maids ports with that plastic that you take a hair dryer to and it forms a perfect inside cover.   I've used those on one of our basement windows out here and it works very well in -35 and it's very inexpensive.  Martin..  (Prairie Maid)| 34791|34639|2018-02-01 17:32:25|Matt Malone|Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels| I thought carbon foam was just a storage medium for lithium ions, in the anode, but it looks like this is being applied to lead acid too.  $500 for a starting/marine battery good for 3,600 cycles to 50% depth of discharge.  That is 10 years of 600Wh/day or about $0.10 of electricity at daily average grid costs for a house, or about $360 worth of electricity over its lifetime.  On a boat that is really good.   On a farm, with lots of generating options, and some effort to use power as it is generated, that could easily come out cheaper than the grid.  There is a huge upfront investment in dozens of batteries and generation of course instead of unending mortgage payments to utility. That is impressive without going to lithium and fancy chargers. Thanks Brent. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 1, 16:35 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive, New, Solar Panels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Last night  I attended a University of Quadra  forum on clean energy for boaters. Very  interesting. The guy mentioned carbon foam batteries, which sound very interesting. He said one was  left absolutely dead for  a year, yet had no problem taking a charge and holding it  a year later. Given all the problems I have had with batteries left low for too long , and the cost of replacing them, at less than double the cost of a standard deep cycle, lead acid battery ,they may be well worth the price. | 34792|34789|2018-02-03 12:37:22|rockrothwell|Re: Double paned glas windows|The Dove has opening ports with a bit of corrosion round em on the inside.Don't yet have the luxury of a woodstove yet, but it's job one in spring,get a good bit of condensation & am planning on going with 1/4" acrylic basically glued down with lexel from the outside.The strength already there with the existing ports, the exterior glazing should stop condensation & can just open the port to clean| 34793|34789|2018-02-03 13:40:01|Matt Malone|Woodstove| Consider including a 12V computer case fan - very low power, quiet, high flow - blowing on/through the heat exchanger.  Consider a CPU fan to maintain positive secondary combustion ventilation and mixing.  Think of it like a shower head spraying air into the secondary combustion volume - entering from pressure and with speed is better mixing. Also, a fan can make air flow counter to convection, in a counterflow heat exchanger, making room air warmer, chimney air cooler for the heat exchanger fan.  The combustion air fan can make the chimney air cooler, and secondary combustion air hotter, making a more efficient burn, particularly at low firing rates.  This improves efficiency and makes the exhaust cleaner.  This is a recipe for very miserly wood use and a toasty cabin.  If a secondary combustion fan is used, the combustion chamber might go to positive pressure more frequently than say wind down the chimney might on an ordinary stove.  In that case the combustion chamber has to be more air tight so combustion gases do not enter the cabin.  Ordinarily it is the draft that keeps a negative pressure on average most of the time.  For sealing Rona and Home Hardware sell fibreglass stove door beading in 1/4 inch to 3/8" sizes.  I used 1/8" x 3/4" cold rolled steel on edge to make two concentric shapes around the perimeter of the door that hold the bead firmly.   A third strip on the mating frame fits between the two strips, interfacing firmly on the bead.  A substantial door sealing pressure with multiple dogs is useful. Yes, now the stove works best as an electric appliance, consuming a trickle of current, but it can still work satisfactorily on draft with no power if one has a good chimney or turbine. Matt From: rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, February 3, 12:38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Double paned glas windows To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   The Dove has opening ports with a bit of corrosion round em on the inside. Don't yet have the luxury of a woodstove yet, but it's job one in spring, get a good bit of condensation & am planning on going with 1/4" acrylic basically glued down with lexel from the outside. The strength already there with the existing ports, the exterior glazing should stop condensation & can just open the port to clean | 34794|34789|2018-02-03 18:47:11|brentswain38|Re: Double paned glas windows|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Tight  fitting Ethafoam gives you plenty of insulation , and light.     I've not been bothered by a little condensation on my ports either Brent,  but I did think that if I was to live aboard on the west coast all winter I'd just go to the hardware store and cover all of Prairie Maids ports with that plastic that you take a hair dryer to and it forms a perfect inside cover.   I've used those on one of our basement windows out here and it works very well in -35 and it's very inexpensive.  Martin..  (Prairie Maid)| 34795|34789|2018-02-03 18:55:01|brentswain38|Re: Woodstove|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :With colder stovepipe temperatures, you would have to  make sure all creosote is completely burned, or that could lead  to more condensation( creosote) in the stove pipe.Using rod instead of flat bar around the gasket holds it in better.I have used roiled up aluminium foil in silicone for a gasket. Works just as well. Consider including a 12V computer case fan - very low power, quiet, high flow - blowing on/through the heat exchanger.  Consider a CPU fan to maintain positive secondary combustion ventilation and mixing.  Think of it like a shower head spraying air into the secondary combustion volume - entering from pressure and with speed is better mixing. Also, a fan can make air flow counter to convection, in a counterflow heat exchanger, making room air warmer, chimney air cooler for the heat exchanger fan.  The combustion air fan can make the chimney air cooler, and secondary combustion air hotter, making a more efficient burn, particularly at low firing rates.  This improves efficiency and makes the exhaust cleaner.  This is a recipe for very miserly wood use and a toasty cabin.  If a secondary combustion fan is used, the combustion chamber might go to positive pressure more frequently than say wind down the chimney might on an ordinary stove.  In that case the combustion chamber has to be more air tight so combustion gases do not enter the cabin.  Ordinarily it is the draft that keeps a negative pressure on average most of the time.  For sealing Rona and Home Hardware sell fibreglass stove door beading in 1/4 inch to 3/8" sizes.  I used 1/8" x 3/4" cold rolled steel on edge to make two concentric shapes around the perimeter of the door that hold the bead firmly.   A third strip on the mating frame fits between the two strips, interfacing firmly on the bead.  A substantial door sealing pressure with multiple dogs is useful. Yes, now the stove works best as an electric appliance, consuming a trickle of current, but it can still work satisfactorily on draft with no power if one has a good chimney or turbine. Matt From: rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, February 3, 12:38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Double paned glas windows To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   The Dove has opening ports with a bit of corrosion round em on the inside. Don't yet have the luxury of a woodstove yet, but it's job one in spring, get a good bit of condensation & am planning on going with 1/4" acrylic basically glued down with lexel from the outside. The strength already there with the existing ports, the exterior glazing should stop condensation & can just open the port to clean | 34796|34789|2018-02-04 13:58:32|Matt Malone|Re: Woodstove| Aluminum foil and (high temperature) silicon, very cool Brent. Brent wrote: >With colder stovepipe temperatures, you would have to  make sure >all creosote is completely burned, or that could lead  to more >condensation( creosote) in the stove pipe. Absolutely.  The entire idea of a stove with a secondary combustion zone and secondary air source is to have far better combustion.   This is done by having three zones in the stove: - the insulated firebox receiving pre-heated primary combustion air to assure good burning at very low fuel consumption rates -- this means the stove can really be throttled down. - the secondary combustion zone with separate, pre-heated secondard combustion air -- either very high temperatures and a red hot metal baffle providing for hot-surface combustion or high temperatures (just below detectable dull red) and a catalytic combuster are need here to assure near-complete combustion. - the uninsulated, large contact surface area radiator/heat exchanger to get the heat out of the the exhaust gases and into the heated space.   The point is, before the heat exchanger, the temperature is kept high to get good combustion, and after the heat exchanger, the exhaust is as cool as possible to get as much heat out of the combustion of the wood as possible.   In a regular one-zone combustion stove without insulation of the combustion zone, the more heat one gets from the outside of the firebox, the lower the temperature in the firebox combustion zone, and the more creosote and other partially burned materials one creates.  This not only builds up in the flue, it results in dirty sooty smoke that is incompatible with keeping things like sails clean.   Yes, there is a start-up state, before the firebox is hot, before the tubing that preheats the combustion air has been heated, when a 3-zone stove will create dirtier smoke, and creosote, if one burns material which contains creosote.   I start my fire with newspapers and clean low-sap white wood (as opposed to wood from parts of the tree that are darker from having more sap) with no bark at all.   This makes a sooty smoke, but very little creosote.   With good insulation of the firebox, it gets red hot in there in a short time.   I leave my heat exchanger fan off during start up so that there is no increased tendency to build up creosote in the heat exchanger.   This results in no useful heat being put into the room but maximizes the speed with which the stove transitions to proper catalytic or secondary burning.   If one wanted to get really neat about it, one could put a propane burner in the wood stove, pre-heat it on propane (intake air dampers wide open to guarantee propane burns at the burner and the stove does not fill with propane), and then throw in wood, and use the propane for a few minutes longer to get the wood lit.   When one is making it themselves, they have latitude for such experimental things.   It would not take too much imagination to change the design of the firebox just a bit, and have the option to skip the wood and use the firebox on propane-only as a crude oven to cook food.  I do not use propane in my wood stove but I have learned how to cook food inside the firebox and it works very well, especially in the summer and shoulder seasons when one does not want a roaring fire to get the top of the stove/heat exchanger hot enough to cook outside the stove.     That brings up another option.  The shape of the heat exchanger can be optimized for any purpose, but, cooking is one useful use of the heat coming off the heat exchanger.  One of my stoves has an alcove (a cavity open at the front) in the heat exchanger and I can tell you, it is quite suitable for cooking.   If one had a box as the lower part of the heat exchanger with a 6" pipe pierced clear through it, with doors on either end, one could cook inside the pipe.   Look at all the different shapes of kitchen wood stoves, and imagine all of the shapes one could make a heat exchanger to get the most heat from it.   When one is imagining all these things, one might also imagine heel angles in the design -- orient the piercing cooking tube for-aft is one thing.   The bottom would be just as round inside heeled over as it would be upright.    >Using rod instead of flat bar around the gasket holds it in better. I am not picturing that.   I will better describe what I am talking about and maybe we will close in on the same picture. Imagine the door starts as a metal plate of 3/8" cut as a circular disk.   The seal will be a circle.   The steel flat I spoke of is, stood on edge and makes two circular ribbons on the inside near the perimeter of the door, that when placed on the inside of the door are concentric circles that make a C-channel-like gap between them that the gasket goes into.   The gasket is now trapped between two high walls of its c-channel canyon.   It is easy to do a seal weld around the outside of the outer ring and inside of the inner ring.   For a round door, the hole into the stove would be round and a little smaller.  One would make a 3rd ring half way between the sizes of the inner and outer door ring, and weld this third ring to the stove around the hole -- call this ring on the stove, the stove port.      Single pin hinges make the seal on the hinge side of the door conditional on very tight tolerances on welding down hinges.   Instead use "double hatch hinges", where each hinge has two pivot pins with a bar between them to attach the door to the stove.  This is a single hatch hinge: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0710/6599/products/AA52507_large.jpeg?v=1426285069 Imagine something like that but where both sides of the hinge look like the upper pad.   The bar between them is then jointed in two places.   A regular hinge has one pivot.  A double hatch hinge has two pivots and one bar between them.  The pins hold the linkage to pivot only in one plane, like a motorcycle chain bends in only one plane.   Two pins and one bar fixes the distance between the two pads, however, one pad can be slightly higher or lower than the other.   This allows sealing pressure to be exerted on the hinge side of the door separate from the swinging of the door, guaranteeing a seal no matter how the seal compresses with time.   A hinge of this sort is always the best sort of hinge for a water-tight door for the same reason.  One then welds on at least 3 rotating dogs and wedges (like this example for a water-tight door on a ship, but obviously, no handles inside the firebox): http://engineeringtraining.tpub.com/14057/1405700059im.jpg around the door so that when the door is closed, it can be uniformly held against the seal, even if the seal changes with time.    Now, think about a motorcycle or industrial chain.  It is flexible in one direction, not in the other.  The double hatch hinge is like two pivots and three plate sets -- one and a half full links a motorcycle chain.   The reason why the door hinges in a plane is the same as why a motorcycle chain only bends one way.  Imagine triple rank chain, like one sees in industrial applications running a gang of three sprockets, and use 4 pivots and 5 plate sets of that chain, with no rollers.  One would get something that is 2 plate-sets shorter than this photo: http://octaforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/PIV-Chain-300x174.jpg Hinge the 5 plate-sets (of all of the hinges) so that they form a (the identical) semi-circular arc and weld the left end plates to the stove, and the right end plates to the door.   Now the door can approach the sealing surface in an arbitrary approach.  The door cannot get away, but, it has both lateral and angular slop, so that it can be positioned perfectly for a seal.  The laminated nature, with the pins through it operate like a flat joint, like a motorcycle chain, so the door can only swing in one plane.  If one has access to a punch and cold-rolled strip, it is easy to make this sort of laminated hinge.   Or one can literally use a segment of industrial chain from a scrap yard.   Note that, if one uses more than a double hinge, then the door may be displaced right or left as it approaches the seal.  With the door in place, one welds guide tangs to the stove face tight around the door, so, when the door is against the stove face, it can only be in one position.  These tangs act as guides to position the door on the seal as one brings the door to mate with the face of the stove.   With a good door seal, and high temperature silicon sealing every other joint, the stove should not leak combustion gases.   In theory, one could have wood heat that does not give a wood-heated smell to the cabin.   Because you know that smell comes from leaks in joints and seals right?  My garage woodstove is really well sealed, with secondary combustion, and heat exchanger.  When it starts there is a little bit of wood-heated smell near the stove, but there is no lasting permeating smell in the garage.   My cabin woodstove is an early baffle design that routinely operates below its optimum temperature, and it is not well sealed, so the cabin smells like it is wood heated.   There are tremendous opportunities for wood stoves if one is making it themselves. Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 6:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Woodstove     With colder stovepipe temperatures, you would have to  make sure all creosote is completely burned, or that could lead  to more condensation( creosote) in the stove pipe. Using rod instead of flat bar around the gasket holds it in better. I have used roiled up aluminium foil in silicone for a gasket. Works just as well. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Consider including a 12V computer case fan - very low power, quiet, high flow - blowing on/through the heat exchanger.  Consider a CPU fan to maintain positive secondary combustion ventilation and mixing.  Think of it like a shower head spraying air into the secondary combustion volume - entering from pressure and with speed is better mixing. Also, a fan can make air flow counter to convection, in a counterflow heat exchanger, making room air warmer, chimney air cooler for the heat exchanger fan.  The combustion air fan can make the chimney air cooler, and secondary combustion air hotter, making a more efficient burn, particularly at low firing rates.  This improves efficiency and makes the exhaust cleaner.  This is a recipe for very miserly wood use and a toasty cabin.  If a secondary combustion fan is used, the combustion chamber might go to positive pressure more frequently than say wind down the chimney might on an ordinary stove.  In that case the combustion chamber has to be more air tight so combustion gases do not enter the cabin.  Ordinarily it is the draft that keeps a negative pressure on average most of the time.  For sealing Rona and Home Hardware sell fibreglass stove door beading in 1/4 inch to 3/8" sizes.  I used 1/8" x 3/4" cold rolled steel on edge to make two concentric shapes around the perimeter of the door that hold the bead firmly.   A third strip on the mating frame fits between the two strips, interfacing firmly on the bead.  A substantial door sealing pressure with multiple dogs is useful. Yes, now the stove works best as an electric appliance, consuming a trickle of current, but it can still work satisfactorily on draft with no power if one has a good chimney or turbine. Matt From: rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, February 3, 12:38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Double paned glas windows To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   The Dove has opening ports with a bit of corrosion round em on the inside. Don't yet have the luxury of a woodstove yet, but it's job one in spring, get a good bit of condensation & am planning on going with 1/4" acrylic basically glued down with lexel from the outside. The strength already there with the existing ports, the exterior glazing should stop condensation & can just open the port to clean | 34797|34789|2018-02-05 17:39:37|brentswain38|Re: Woodstove|Great post Matt! Thanks.For wood burners, I have discovered a far better way of sharpening chain  saws than filing. Dremel makes chainsaw stones ,which in a Dremel tool, sharpen a chain very quickly. You have to be careful not to overheat and take the temper out. Sharpening so quickly and easily means you  are likely to go thru chains much more quickly. I also see cordless Dremel tools, which can be put in your  back pack , and taken to the beach, to resharpen your chainsaw, quickly,  anytime, anywhere.| 34798|34798|2018-02-05 17:40:45|wanderingwilson|Update on Nomadic and some questions|Two years ago i purchased Nomadic on the hard in Guaymas Mexico. I havent been back until about two weeks ago. Next winter i hope to spend a few months on her and get her in the water. This trip i am just patching up rust that has develpoed after almost ten years of sitting. After digging trough Nomadic thoroughly I have figured out a lot but i still have a lot of questions. So here is what I am asking.I found that the skeg has pipe stubs for cooling but the engine is plumbed to a through hull. could i use the skeg as an extra fuel tank?I removed all the old diesel and the bottome of the tank has some kind of membrane coating. there is a big bubble that has diesel on the wrong side of it. does it matter? can i just cut a big access from the outside in the keel and scrape out the tank? should it just be bare steel? Nomadic has no water tanks! where does everyone else have their water tanks. is under the v birth all the way forward a good spot? my rudder was leaking oil through a cracked weld. what kind of oil is in the rudder and why is oil filled? The traveler tracks for the headsail are bolted to the side decks which creates about 100 holes in the deck and does not seem like the best placement anyway for sheeting. i would like to fill all those holes and relocate the track but it seems like to do that i would have to reconfigure the whole toe rail/ stanchion arrangement. what is everyone else doing. Thats all for now but i will have more. thanks| 34800|34798|2018-02-05 18:03:56|brentswain38|Re: Update on Nomadic and some questions|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :You could use the skeg for fuel ,but you would be far better off to use it  as intended, for a keel cooler, eliminating such problem prone areas like a salt water intake, strainers ,heat exchanger, salt water pump, etc.The front pipe is your pickup from the bottom of the skeg, the back one the outlet for the hot water from the engine. As one Port Townsend diesel mechanic was quoted as saying: "If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, us diesel; mechanics  would all be out of work".You could get away with bare steel ,many do, but the top of the tank could corrode from condensation, as would the bottom.Yes, you can cut an access from outside, and weld it shut when done. I have done that  for sandblasting the inside of a tank.No problem.I have one water tank under my steering seat and another under the galley.Under the forepeak bunk a has worked well for some.I have no idea what kind of oil is in the rudder. With it sealed airtight , I have found no need for oil of any kind .The bulwark pipe makes all the sheet lead you need, using the sheet lead bulwark clamp in my book. Tracks are a foolish  attempt to imitate plastic boat Yottie foolishness .Yours is not the only brentboat to suffer from one. I saw one welded (Tacked) down, with no way to maintain the space under them,and rust drooling out from under them.Very hard to remove as well.What is a  good idea on plastic is sometimes big screwup on steel.Get  rid of the track, fill the holes with weld, and use the bulwark(Quote)Two years ago i purchased Nomadic on the hard in Guaymas Mexico. I havent been back until about two weeks ago. Next winter i hope to spend a few months on her and get her in the water. This trip i am just patching up rust that has develpoed after almost ten years of sitting. After digging trough Nomadic thoroughly I have figured out a lot but i still have a lot of questions. So here is what I am asking.I found that the skeg has pipe stubs for cooling but the engine is plumbed to a through hull. could i use the skeg as an extra fuel tank?I removed all the old diesel and the bottome of the tank has some kind of membrane coating. there is a big bubble that has diesel on the wrong side of it. does it matter? can i just cut a big access from the outside in the keel and scrape out the tank? should it just be bare steel? Nomadic has no water tanks! where does everyone else have their water tanks. is under the v birth all the way forward a good spot? my rudder was leaking oil through a cracked weld. what kind of oil is in the rudder and why is oil filled? The traveler tracks for the headsail are bolted to the side decks which creates about 100 holes in the deck and does not seem like the best placement anyway for sheeting. i would like to fill all those holes and relocate the track but it seems like to do that i would have to reconfigure the whole toe rail/ stanchion arrangement. what is everyone else doing. Thats all for now but i will have more. thanks| 34801|34558|2018-02-06 16:59:49|juan antognini|Re: BS 26 in Puerto Madryn Patagonia Argentina|Muchas Gracias Jesus en cuantome organice un poco lo voy a comprar como material de consulta.Saludos Ing. Juan E. Antognini Cerámica Cuenco (0280)154354047 El Miércoles, 31 de enero, 2018 7:54:39, "jalborey@... [origamiboats]" escribió:   Hola, Juan. Llevo un tiempo sin entrar en el grupo y no había leído tu mensaje. Creo que los datos de envío y pago ya te los ha recordado Brent. Brent está siempre dispuesto a resolver las dudas que te surjan en la construcción o acastillaje del barco y sus consejos son impagables. Si tienes dificultades con el idioma, yo te echo una mano encantado. Google Translator y similares no son precisos y a veces juegan muy malas pasadas. Mucho ánimo con tu proyecto, mantennos informados!Jesús #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 -- #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639 #ygrps-yiv-1899622808yiv0519357639ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1899622808 | 34802|34798|2018-02-07 16:42:36|brentswain38|Re: Update on Nomadic and some questions|Did Rob put enough epoxy on the inside  before foaming? Is there epoxy under the foam?If you are in Alaska, you definitely want epoxy right down to the  floor boards, but not in the bilge , after coating it with a lot of epoxy.| 34803|34605|2018-02-08 10:31:25|Hannu Venermo|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|In my limited experience you can go/arrive most anywhere with any minimal insurance, often none is ok, if you have some official looking documents of any kind. The bigger the boat and the more fancy the marina and more upscale in the oecd countries, the more likely they are to want you to fulfill various requirements for the marina and legal stuff like holding tanks. The upscale oecd marinas want some insurance for third party liability, mostly. They don´t expect to need it, or use it, or collect from it. Imo. Ime. But their own insurer has this as a requirement so they need to tick a box. This is understandable. A small 10 m steel (frp) boat can make a major dent / damage in a 15 m long 1M$ yacht nearby or in the next slip. I once saw a strong impact in the bcn marina villa olimpica on == 11 m / 13 m yachts (frp). Lots of people came running. I am not a fan of excessive regulation and overpriced, especially mandatory, paperwork and inspections and licenses. But I think it is reasonable some minimal liability coverage and standards like holding tanks may be required. Minimal insurance is cheap. Like 200$ /yr. I understand both sides of the issue. It is silly and unfair to ask cruisers to pay a 200$ yearly fee for useless insurance. But an unconsciencious cruiser can do 50-100k$ ++ damage to coral reefs, fishing installations, other boats, in a few minutes, due to laziness. Or incompetence, etc. Even minimal insurance makes a boat owner more reachable, registered, "known" so they can be contacted in the event of an issue. Many small boat owners will/do/would try to avoid responsibility, if they bang someone elses expensive boat. (Or fishing thingy). Likewise many owners of expensive boats or commercial fishing/etc thingies will immediately claim 20.000$ in damages from a small mostly cosmetic dent. Where the actual value is 300$ or so. Fwiw.. Spain mostly does not need insurance, france may (usually wants it), finland does not, mexico varies, tunisia varies (mostly not), malta varies (mostly not) sicilia does not. Size of port/boat has huge impact. On 21/12/2017 18:52, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote: > >      Just wondering how many countries require boat insurance around > the world to sail in their waters and how many marinas require it as > well.  It seems that most Canadian marinas want proof of insurance to > get a slip. > > .  And of course that brings up the rip off of the boat survey, and > what it involves and it's validity other than a person making money > off the system.  What are others experiences around the world with > this practice? > > Martin.. (Prairie Maid) > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34804|34789|2018-02-08 10:44:16|a.sobriquet|sharpen chainsaw|This is the method I use to sharpen a chainsaw. It uses a conventional chainsaw file and an electric drill. Fast and cheap. Be sure an spin the file counter-clockwise (that is, put the drill in reverse), and chuck the file from the tang end. Using a cordless drill allows you to sharpen the chainsaw in the field.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6di3joo6Tw---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Great post Matt! Thanks.For wood burners, I have discovered a far better way of sharpening chain  saws than filing. Dremel makes chainsaw stones ,which in a Dremel tool, sharpen a chain very quickly. You have to be careful not to overheat and take the temper out. Sharpening so quickly and easily means you  are likely to go thru chains much more quickly. I also see cordless Dremel tools, which can be put in your  back pack , and taken to the beach, to resharpen your chainsaw, quickly,  anytime, anywhere.| 34805|34605|2018-02-08 10:57:51|Maxime Camirand|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited voyages for a few hundred dollars per year?  On 8 February 2018 at 10:31, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   In my limited experience you can go/arrive most anywhere with any minimal insurance, often none is ok, if you have some official looking documents of any kind. The bigger the boat and the more fancy the marina and more upscale in the oecd countries, the more likely they are to want you to fulfill various requirements for the marina and legal stuff like holding tanks. The upscale oecd marinas want some insurance for third party liability, mostly. They don´t expect to need it, or use it, or collect from it. Imo. Ime. But their own insurer has this as a requirement so they need to tick a box. This is understandable. A small 10 m steel (frp) boat can make a major dent / damage in a 15 m long 1M$ yacht nearby or in the next slip. I once saw a strong impact in the bcn marina villa olimpica on == 11 m / 13 m yachts (frp). Lots of people came running. I am not a fan of excessive regulation and overpriced, especially mandatory, paperwork and inspections and licenses. But I think it is reasonable some minimal liability coverage and standards like holding tanks may be required. Minimal insurance is cheap. Like 200$ /yr. I understand both sides of the issue. It is silly and unfair to ask cruisers to pay a 200$ yearly fee for useless insurance. But an unconsciencious cruiser can do 50-100k$ ++ damage to coral reefs, fishing installations, other boats, in a few minutes, due to laziness. Or incompetence, etc. Even minimal insurance makes a boat owner more reachable, registered, "known" so they can be contacted in the event of an issue. Many small boat owners will/do/would try to avoid responsibility, if they bang someone elses expensive boat. (Or fishing thingy). Likewise many owners of expensive boats or commercial fishing/etc thingies will immediately claim 20.000$ in damages from a small mostly cosmetic dent. Where the actual value is 300$ or so. Fwiw.. Spain mostly does not need insurance, france may (usually wants it), finland does not, mexico varies, tunisia varies (mostly not), malta varies (mostly not) sicilia does not. Size of port/boat has huge impact. On 21/12/2017 18:52, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote: > >      Just wondering how many countries require boat insurance around > the world to sail in their waters and how many marinas require it as > well.  It seems that most Canadian marinas want proof of insurance to > get a slip. > > .  And of course that brings up the rip off of the boat survey, and > what it involves and it's validity other than a person making money > off the system.  What are others experiences around the world with > this practice? > > Martin.. (Prairie Maid) > -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34806|34605|2018-02-08 12:26:48|Hannu Venermo|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 34807|34605|2018-02-08 14:01:42|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| I am not doubting Hannu, but, that sounds awfully cheap.   Every policy has limitations.  Does that price assume any huge limitation?   Like, it does not cover "environmental" damage -- that might mean spills, discharge, or physical damage to natural features either through collision or anchoring.   That can be a big expensive hole in coverage, depending on where one is. There are a lot of other potential limitations and clauses that might tend to be used to deny coverage -- like "collision damage caused by the boat when not under way is covered provided the boat was adequately secured".  But the lawyer asks, if it was "adequately" secured, how can it cause any damage ?  Did the marina mooring chain break? -- Ah, ok, you are covered, and then they sue the marina, otherwise, denied.   Such clauses may sound stupid, but, what it is really saying is, if the boat was secured, and it was someone else's fault it came loose, insurance covers the damage caused by the boat, and then insurance sues the party that caused the boat to come loose.   This is instead of, in the broken mooring chain case, the boat owner having to separately sue the marina, before the boat owner is bankrupted by the owner of the damaged yacht next door.  These clauses are about a shield and cash-flow and covering lawyer's fees for the innocent insured party -- people who are at fault are on their own.   If you know what you are signing and paying for, there is still value in that, and incentive to be diligent.     If it is just boat on boat and boat on infrastructure collision damage, however caused, that is still worth it.    Still I would read the contract carefully once to make sure it did not contain any clauses that would effectively nullify coverage contrary to my expectation.   Perhaps Hannu you can suggest where to look to find this inexpensive insurance? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34808|34605|2018-02-08 15:06:26|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Right on Matt!  The only insurance claim I ever made was denied because I didn't have a credit card for them to put my expenses on and force me to go to court.At that  time they were called "Travel Underwriters,Worldwide Mediclaim" sold in BC Credit Unions.Since then, they have changed names every time their reputation began to catch up with them . Thiei main  goal was not to do what they promised , but too find away to weasel out of paying. The last name was "To Go." Travel insurance.I have no confidence in them ever paying up, and any refusal incurs costs I could never cover.Insurance means having a surveyor tell you ho wot fit your boat out, a surveyor who often doesn't have a clueA friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  all around. At that point, would be hard to resist the urge to throw him overboard.I would never put myself at the mercy of such halfwits.I have never had insurance while cruising, as it would demand that I put up with at least 3 other people on board, eliminating the pleasure of going cruising in the first place.If marinas demand it, then they can stuff their moorage where the sun don't shine. Haven't needed it and simply don't go where I will need it.#ygrps-yiv-883368405 #ygrps-yiv-883368405ygrps-yiv-1097707026 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I am not doubting Hannu, but, that sounds awfully cheap.   Every policy has limitations.  Does that price assume any huge limitation?   Like, it does not cover "environmental" damage -- that might mean spills, discharge, or physical damage to natural features either through collision or anchoring.   That can be a big expensive hole in coverage, depending on where one is.There are a lot of other potential limitations and clauses that might tend to be used to deny coverage -- like "collision damage caused by the boat when not under way is covered provided the boat was adequately secured".  But the lawyer asks, if it was "adequately" secured, how can it cause any damage ?  Did the marina mooring chain break? -- Ah, ok, you are covered, and then they sue the marina, otherwise, denied.   Such clauses may sound stupid, but, what it is really saying is, if the boat was secured, and it was someone else's fault it came loose, insurance covers the damage caused by the boat, and then insurance sues the party that caused the boat to come loose.   This is instead of, in the broken mooring chain case, the boat owner having to separately sue the marina, before the boat owner is bankrupted by the owner of the damaged yacht next door.  These clauses are about a shield and cash-flow and covering lawyer's fees for the innocent insured party -- people who are at fault are on their own.   If you know what you are signing and paying for, there is still value in that, and incentive to be diligent.    If it is just boat on boat and boat on infrastructure collision damage, however caused, that is still worth it.   Still I would read the contract carefully once to make sure it did not contain any clauses that would effectively nullify coverage contrary to my expectation.  Perhaps Hannu you can suggest where to look to find this inexpensive insurance? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey  yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34809|34605|2018-02-08 16:55:34|Matt Malone|Re: Wood Stove Design 3| >A friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would >approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest >heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow >like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  >a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor >stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  >all around. Wood stoves in boats are complex.   I will address only two concerns: Clearance to Combustibles This is a serious issue.   If one looks at industrial-produced heating appliances that have been certified for reduced clearance to combustibles, there are two common elements:   air gaps between metal baffle plates, and insulation -- yes, insulation so that the heat does not get out on sides of the appliance one does not want it getting out of.   Baffles are easy.   Metal sheet surrounds the hot parts of the stove on narrow rod-like stand-offs with enough gap that convection carries away the heat of the stove and keeps the baffle substantially cooler.   It is entirely acceptable to have a second baffle around the first one, also on stand offs, not in line with the stand-offs holding the first baffle.   With two baffles, I would not be surprised if one could place their hand on the outside of the outer baffle at full heat.   Industrial-produced stoves which burn different fuels often make use of these means to have reduced, or even zero clearance to combustibles.   Flash-back of combustible vapours First, I am a fan of large plumbing ball valves for the intake air valves on wood burners.   When shut, the air intake is completely cut.   They are brass and durable, and most are good for hot water if not atmospheric (<15psi overpressure) boiler temperatures.   If one has occasion to work with a flammable, one can shut off the stove entirely and make sure that flammable vapours from the air cannot be ingested into the stove, lit, and allow the flame front to escape the stove.   When the vent is open and the stove is running, there is no such protection from this alone.   Look to intake air flash-back arresters on marine gasoline engines -- consider installing one on the intake to the woodstove.   There are a lot of regulations about heating and fuel vapours in different applications.  In an automotive garage, one regulation might be the air intake of a heating appliance must be more than 36 inches from the floor.   This however considers there is a great big garage door to outside at floor level, allowing heavier-than-air vapours to leak out.   In a boat, down in the hull, there is no such thing.   Therefore, even if one mounts their stove high, if there is no flash-back suppressor, the vapours might build up deep enough in the hull to reach the intake, flash back and woof.    Propane, natural gas, stove oil, any fuel, the stove has the same issue.  What one may not have noticed is the air screen that seems to be keeping dust bunnys from being sucked into the intake air, is actually a design of flashback arrestor.   Where stoves for these other fuels have been designed to prevent flashback, most wood stoves have not.   In summary, though there is nothing inherently bad about wood heat in a boat, what one might be overlooking is that industrial-produced heating appliances that run on other fuels and are designed to be used in a boat are designed to mitigate some of the hazards that one might encounter in clearance to combustibles or flash back arrestors.   Unfortunately, with respect to these things, there are standards and tests required to meet those standards before a product gains a certification for a certain use.   The best designed home-built wood burning appliances simply do not have the certifications.   If it is certifications that are the problem, one's only hope may be to buy a certified, probably a propane heating appliance.   If it is actual safety that one is interested in, then careful design might be exercised by a home builder of wood stoves.   Note I have only touched on two concerns.   One can run the stove in tests outdoors (not in the boat) and read the temperature of outside surfaces, compare to the standards, and err on the side of caution.   Doing flash-back tests is very dangerous.   I am not going to even describe the most safe method that comes to mind for fear even that might blow up someone.   I will say that doing flashback tests in a boat or in a building is a capitally bad idea, and doing them with any quantity of flammable, or any volume of pre-mixed air and vapour is incredibly dangerous.   I will also point out that things that were tested and proven safe, if they have even the slightest deterioration of the flashback preventer with time can become completely unsafe:   Read this article entirely to appreciate the engineering challenge to a good flashback arrestor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_lamp Davy lamp - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org The Davy lamp is a safety lamp for use in flammable atmospheres, invented in 1815 by Sir Humphry Davy. It consists of a wick lamp with the flame enclosed inside a ... Now one says, but there is never any flammable gas in their boat, for a number of provided reasons.   OK, but still, if it happens, the first sound I want to hear is my flammable gas alarm, not followed by a woof. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Right on Matt!  The only insurance claim I ever made was denied because I didn't have a credit card for them to put my expenses on and force me to go to court. At that  time they were called "Travel Underwriters,Worldwide Mediclaim" sold in BC Credit Unions.Since then, they have changed names every time their reputation began to catch up with them . Thiei main  goal was not to do what they promised , but too find away to weasel out of paying. The last name was "To Go." Travel insurance. I have no confidence in them ever paying up, and any refusal incurs costs I could never cover. Insurance means having a surveyor tell you ho wot fit your boat out, a surveyor who often doesn't have a clue A friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  all around. At that point, would be hard to resist the urge to throw him overboard.I would never put myself at the mercy of such halfwits. I have never had insurance while cruising, as it would demand that I put up with at least 3 other people on board, eliminating the pleasure of going cruising in the first place. If marinas demand it, then they can stuff their moorage where the sun don't shine. Haven't needed it and simply don't go where I will need it. I am not doubting Hannu, but, that sounds awfully cheap.   Every policy has limitations.  Does that price assume any huge limitation?   Like, it does not cover "environmental" damage -- that might mean spills, discharge, or physical damage to natural features either through collision or anchoring.   That can be a big expensive hole in coverage, depending on where one is. There are a lot of other potential limitations and clauses that might tend to be used to deny coverage -- like "collision damage caused by the boat when not under way is covered provided the boat was adequately secured".  But the lawyer asks, if it was "adequately" secured, how can it cause any damage ?  Did the marina mooring chain break? -- Ah, ok, you are covered, and then they sue the marina, otherwise, denied.   Such clauses may sound stupid, but, what it is really saying is, if the boat was secured, and it was someone else's fault it came loose, insurance covers the damage caused by the boat, and then insurance sues the party that caused the boat to come loose.   This is instead of, in the broken mooring chain case, the boat owner having to separately sue the marina, before the boat owner is bankrupted by the owner of the damaged yacht next door.  These clauses are about a shield and cash-flow and covering lawyer's fees for the innocent insured party -- people who are at fault are on their own.   If you know what you are signing and paying for, there is still value in that, and incentive to be diligent.     If it is just boat on boat and boat on infrastructure collision damage, however caused, that is still worth it.    Still I would read the contract carefully once to make sure it did not contain any clauses that would effectively nullify coverage contrary to my expectation.   Perhaps Hannu you can suggest where to look to find this inexpensive insurance? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34810|34605|2018-02-09 00:21:22|Darren Bos|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| I'd really like to know the name of the insurance companies that offer worldwide 3rd party liability coverage on the scale of a couple hundred dollars per year. On 18-02-08 09:26 AM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34811|34605|2018-02-09 00:36:03|Jim Phillips|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Try Edward William. Costing me about $500 a year for third party coverage up to $10 million. On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 at 3:21 pm, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I'd really like to know the name of the insurance companies that offer worldwide 3rd party liability coverage on the scale of a couple hundred dollars per year. On 18-02-08 09:26 AM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote:   yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... 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As I said, they are not worth much. Expensive insurance is not necessarily better .. and any contract insurance or other can be disputed. We own a law office with 16 lawyers, fwiw.. We don´t do litigation. Typical rates are 1-n% of cost of boat. A 100k BS steel sailboat would be around 200$, liability alone with maybe a deductible. For another example, we insure for health travel and dental full coverage, no deductible, me at 49, wife at 43, our kid at 4. About 1900$ all-in, yearly, alliance, billion $+ company. I would look for local insurance brokers first, and international next. Sometimes international is much better, like my health insurance example- I think. A us cost is like 10k+ per year for same. Perhaps more or double. Ours covers the us. On 08/02/2018 20:01, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Perhaps Hannu you can suggest where to look to find this inexpensive insurance? Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34813|34605|2018-02-09 12:01:14|Hannu Venermo|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Exactly. And for 500k$, probably a bit less. As I indicated, I don´t expect them to pay .. but neither do the big/best policies on major issues, mostly. On 09/02/2018 06:35, Jim Phillips jim_cl@... [origamiboats] wrote: Try Edward William.  Costing me about $500 a year for third party coverage up to $10 million. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34814|34605|2018-02-11 17:18:39|brentswain38|Re: Wood Stove Design 3|I have found an inch of fibreglass house insulation to be exponentialy better than an inch of air space.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : >A friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would >approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest >heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow >like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  >a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor >stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  >all around. Wood stoves in boats are complex.   I will address only two concerns: Clearance to Combustibles This is a serious issue.   If one looks at industrial-produced heating appliances that have been certified for reduced clearance to combustibles, there are two common elements:   air gaps between metal baffle plates, and insulation -- yes, insulation so that the heat does not get out on sides of the appliance one does not want it getting out of.   Baffles are easy.   Metal sheet surrounds the hot parts of the stove on narrow rod-like stand-offs with enough gap that convection carries away the heat of the stove and keeps the baffle substantially cooler.   It is entirely acceptable to have a second baffle around the first one, also on stand offs, not in line with the stand-offs holding the first baffle.   With two baffles, I would not be surprised if one could place their hand on the outside of the outer baffle at full heat.   Industrial-produced stoves which burn different fuels often make use of these means to have reduced, or even zero clearance to combustibles.   Flash-back of combustible vapours First, I am a fan of large plumbing ball valves for the intake air valves on wood burners.   When shut, the air intake is completely cut.   They are brass and durable, and most are good for hot water if not atmospheric (<15psi overpressure) boiler temperatures.   If one has occasion to work with a flammable, one can shut off the stove entirely and make sure that flammable vapours from the air cannot be ingested into the stove, lit, and allow the flame front to escape the stove.   When the vent is open and the stove is running, there is no such protection from this alone.   Look to intake air flash-back arresters on marine gasoline engines -- consider installing one on the intake to the woodstove.   There are a lot of regulations about heating and fuel vapours in different applications.  In an automotive garage, one regulation might be the air intake of a heating appliance must be more than 36 inches from the floor.   This however considers there is a great big garage door to outside at floor level, allowing heavier-than-air vapours to leak out.   In a boat, down in the hull, there is no such thing.   Therefore, even if one mounts their stove high, if there is no flash-back suppressor, the vapours might build up deep enough in the hull to reach the intake, flash back and woof.    Propane, natural gas, stove oil, any fuel, the stove has the same issue.  What one may not have noticed is the air screen that seems to be keeping dust bunnys from being sucked into the intake air, is actually a design of flashback arrestor.   Where stoves for these other fuels have been designed to prevent flashback, most wood stoves have not.   In summary, though there is nothing inherently bad about wood heat in a boat, what one might be overlooking is that industrial-produced heating appliances that run on other fuels and are designed to be used in a boat are designed to mitigate some of the hazards that one might encounter in clearance to combustibles or flash back arrestors.   Unfortunately, with respect to these things, there are standards and tests required to meet those standards before a product gains a certification for a certain use.   The best designed home-built wood burning appliances simply do not have the certifications.   If it is certifications that are the problem, one's only hope may be to buy a certified, probably a propane heating appliance.   If it is actual safety that one is interested in, then careful design might be exercised by a home builder of wood stoves.   Note I have only touched on two concerns.   One can run the stove in tests outdoors (not in the boat) and read the temperature of outside surfaces, compare to the standards, and err on the side of caution.   Doing flash-back tests is very dangerous.   I am not going to even describe the most safe method that comes to mind for fear even that might blow up someone.   I will say that doing flashback tests in a boat or in a building is a capitally bad idea, and doing them with any quantity of flammable, or any volume of pre-mixed air and vapour is incredibly dangerous.   I will also point out that things that were tested and proven safe, if they have even the slightest deterioration of the flashback preventer with time can become completely unsafe:   Read this article entirely to appreciate the engineering challenge to a good flashback arrestor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_lamp Davy lamp - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org The Davy lamp is a safety lamp for use in flammable atmospheres, invented in 1815 by Sir Humphry Davy. It consists of a wick lamp with the flame enclosed inside a ... Now one says, but there is never any flammable gas in their boat, for a number of provided reasons.   OK, but still, if it happens, the first sound I want to hear is my flammable gas alarm, not followed by a woof. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Right on Matt!  The only insurance claim I ever made was denied because I didn't have a credit card for them to put my expenses on and force me to go to court. At that  time they were called "Travel Underwriters,Worldwide Mediclaim" sold in BC Credit Unions.Since then, they have changed names every time their reputation began to catch up with them . Thiei main  goal was not to do what they promised , but too find away to weasel out of paying. The last name was "To Go." Travel insurance. I have no confidence in them ever paying up, and any refusal incurs costs I could never cover. Insurance means having a surveyor tell you ho wot fit your boat out, a surveyor who often doesn't have a clue A friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  all around. At that point, would be hard to resist the urge to throw him overboard.I would never put myself at the mercy of such halfwits. I have never had insurance while cruising, as it would demand that I put up with at least 3 other people on board, eliminating the pleasure of going cruising in the first place. If marinas demand it, then they can stuff their moorage where the sun don't shine. Haven't needed it and simply don't go where I will need it. I am not doubting Hannu, but, that sounds awfully cheap.   Every policy has limitations.  Does that price assume any huge limitation?   Like, it does not cover "environmental" damage -- that might mean spills, discharge, or physical damage to natural features either through collision or anchoring.   That can be a big expensive hole in coverage, depending on where one is. There are a lot of other potential limitations and clauses that might tend to be used to deny coverage -- like "collision damage caused by the boat when not under way is covered provided the boat was adequately secured".  But the lawyer asks, if it was "adequately" secured, how can it cause any damage ?  Did the marina mooring chain break? -- Ah, ok, you are covered, and then they sue the marina, otherwise, denied.   Such clauses may sound stupid, but, what it is really saying is, if the boat was secured, and it was someone else's fault it came loose, insurance covers the damage caused by the boat, and then insurance sues the party that caused the boat to come loose.   This is instead of, in the broken mooring chain case, the boat owner having to separately sue the marina, before the boat owner is bankrupted by the owner of the damaged yacht next door.  These clauses are about a shield and cash-flow and covering lawyer's fees for the innocent insured party -- people who are at fault are on their own.   If you know what you are signing and paying for, there is still value in that, and incentive to be diligent.     If it is just boat on boat and boat on infrastructure collision damage, however caused, that is still worth it.    Still I would read the contract carefully once to make sure it did not contain any clauses that would effectively nullify coverage contrary to my expectation.   Perhaps Hannu you can suggest where to look to find this inexpensive insurance? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34815|34605|2018-02-11 17:22:26|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Makes me glad I am Canadian.My health insurance costs me $zero.| 34816|34605|2018-02-11 17:25:27|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|My travel health  insurance let me get out of the hospital and out of  the US .Once I got back in Canada, they could go screw  themselves.| 34817|34605|2018-02-11 18:34:49|Matt Malone|Re: Wood Stove Design 3| Absolutely.  It works even better with an airgap, then a baffle, then the inch of insulation.   It allows heat to escape where you want it to, and keeps the outside cooler than just insulation.  An electric stove, with an oven - its outside is suitable to be right up against the lower cabinets in a kitchen.  If the hot air escaping the heat exchanger is over 350F / 450F (typical oven temperatures) that would generally be too hot to heat a small space, or more airflow through the heat exchanger is desirable for a large space. One pattern of design would have hot air circulating in a hot core, and a portion mixing with cooler air that escapes.  There are too many heat exchanger patterns possible, but this might be a good perspective:  google images "Russian woodstove heat exchanger"  None can be directly copied, but combined with other elements, it can make a wood-miserly, clean burning stove that does not light nearby woodwork on fire. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, February 11, 17:18 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wood Stove Design 3 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I have found an inch of fibreglass house insulation to be exponentialy better than an inch of air space. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : >A friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would >approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest >heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow >like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  >a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor >stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  >all around. Wood stoves in boats are complex.   I will address only two concerns: Clearance to Combustibles This is a serious issue.   If one looks at industrial-produced heating appliances that have been certified for reduced clearance to combustibles, there are two common elements:   air gaps between metal baffle plates, and insulation -- yes, insulation so that the heat does not get out on sides of the appliance one does not want it getting out of.   Baffles are easy.   Metal sheet surrounds the hot parts of the stove on narrow rod-like stand-offs with enough gap that convection carries away the heat of the stove and keeps the baffle substantially cooler.   It is entirely acceptable to have a second baffle around the first one, also on stand offs, not in line with the stand-offs holding the first baffle.   With two baffles, I would not be surprised if one could place their hand on the outside of the outer baffle at full heat.   Industrial-produced stoves which burn different fuels often make use of these means to have reduced, or even zero clearance to combustibles.   Flash-back of combustible vapours First, I am a fan of large plumbing ball valves for the intake air valves on wood burners.   When shut, the air intake is completely cut.   They are brass and durable, and most are good for hot water if not atmospheric (<15psi overpressure) boiler temperatures.   If one has occasion to work with a flammable, one can shut off the stove entirely and make sure that flammable vapours from the air cannot be ingested into the stove, lit, and allow the flame front to escape the stove.   When the vent is open and the stove is running, there is no such protection from this alone.   Look to intake air flash-back arresters on marine gasoline engines -- consider installing one on the intake to the woodstove.   There are a lot of regulations about heating and fuel vapours in different applications.  In an automotive garage, one regulation might be the air intake of a heating appliance must be more than 36 inches from the floor.   This however considers there is a great big garage door to outside at floor level, allowing heavier-than-air vapours to leak out.   In a boat, down in the hull, there is no such thing.   Therefore, even if one mounts their stove high, if there is no flash-back suppressor, the vapours might build up deep enough in the hull to reach the intake, flash back and woof.    Propane, natural gas, stove oil, any fuel, the stove has the same issue.  What one may not have noticed is the air screen that seems to be keeping dust bunnys from being sucked into the intake air, is actually a design of flashback arrestor.   Where stoves for these other fuels have been designed to prevent flashback, most wood stoves have not.   In summary, though there is nothing inherently bad about wood heat in a boat, what one might be overlooking is that industrial-produced heating appliances that run on other fuels and are designed to be used in a boat are designed to mitigate some of the hazards that one might encounter in clearance to combustibles or flash back arrestors.   Unfortunately, with respect to these things, there are standards and tests required to meet those standards before a product gains a certification for a certain use.   The best designed home-built wood burning appliances simply do not have the certifications.   If it is certifications that are the problem, one's only hope may be to buy a certified, probably a propane heating appliance.   If it is actual safety that one is interested in, then careful design might be exercised by a home builder of wood stoves.   Note I have only touched on two concerns.   One can run the stove in tests outdoors (not in the boat) and read the temperature of outside surfaces, compare to the standards, and err on the side of caution.   Doing flash-back tests is very dangerous.   I am not going to even describe the most safe method that comes to mind for fear even that might blow up someone.   I will say that doing flashback tests in a boat or in a building is a capitally bad idea, and doing them with any quantity of flammable, or any volume of pre-mixed air and vapour is incredibly dangerous.   I will also point out that things that were tested and proven safe, if they have even the slightest deterioration of the flashback preventer with time can become completely unsafe:   Read this article entirely to appreciate the engineering challenge to a good flashback arrestor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_lamp Davy lamp - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org The Davy lamp is a safety lamp for use in flammable atmospheres, invented in 1815 by Sir Humphry Davy. It consists of a wick lamp with the flame enclosed inside a ... Now one says, but there is never any flammable gas in their boat, for a number of provided reasons.   OK, but still, if it happens, the first sound I want to hear is my flammable gas alarm, not followed by a woof. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Right on Matt!  The only insurance claim I ever made was denied because I didn't have a credit card for them to put my expenses on and force me to go to court. At that  time they were called "Travel Underwriters,Worldwide Mediclaim" sold in BC Credit Unions.Since then, they have changed names every time their reputation began to catch up with them . Thiei main  goal was not to do what they promised , but too find away to weasel out of paying. The last name was "To Go." Travel insurance. I have no confidence in them ever paying up, and any refusal incurs costs I could never cover. Insurance means having a surveyor tell you ho wot fit your boat out, a surveyor who often doesn't have a clue A friend had a hard time finding a surveyor who would approve of any wood stove on her  boat , one of the safest heating methods you can put on a boat.It wont overflow like an oil stove, or blow up like propane,and you can put  a wood fire out with water. I can just imagine a surveyor stating that they must have at least 3 feet of clearance  all around. At that point, would be hard to resist the urge to throw him overboard.I would never put myself at the mercy of such halfwits. I have never had insurance while cruising, as it would demand that I put up with at least 3 other people on board, eliminating the pleasure of going cruising in the first place. If marinas demand it, then they can stuff their moorage where the sun don't shine. Haven't needed it and simply don't go where I will need it. I am not doubting Hannu, but, that sounds awfully cheap.   Every policy has limitations.  Does that price assume any huge limitation?   Like, it does not cover "environmental" damage -- that might mean spills, discharge, or physical damage to natural features either through collision or anchoring.   That can be a big expensive hole in coverage, depending on where one is. There are a lot of other potential limitations and clauses that might tend to be used to deny coverage -- like "collision damage caused by the boat when not under way is covered provided the boat was adequately secured".  But the lawyer asks, if it was "adequately" secured, how can it cause any damage ?  Did the marina mooring chain break? -- Ah, ok, you are covered, and then they sue the marina, otherwise, denied.   Such clauses may sound stupid, but, what it is really saying is, if the boat was secured, and it was someone else's fault it came loose, insurance covers the damage caused by the boat, and then insurance sues the party that caused the boat to come loose.   This is instead of, in the broken mooring chain case, the boat owner having to separately sue the marina, before the boat owner is bankrupted by the owner of the damaged yacht next door.  These clauses are about a shield and cash-flow and covering lawyer's fees for the innocent insured party -- people who are at fault are on their own.   If you know what you are signing and paying for, there is still value in that, and incentive to be diligent.     If it is just boat on boat and boat on infrastructure collision damage, however caused, that is still worth it.    Still I would read the contract carefully once to make sure it did not contain any clauses that would effectively nullify coverage contrary to my expectation.   Perhaps Hannu you can suggest where to look to find this inexpensive insurance? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boat insurance/ the survey     yes On 08/02/2018 16:57, Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Can one get 3rd party liability insurance for worldwide, unlimited > voyages for a few hundred dollars per year? -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 34818|34605|2018-02-12 15:02:16|brentswain38|Re: Wood Stove Design 3|Next to the stove pipe on my stove, I have welded in an SS pipe nipple, which lets me squirt  a bit of alcohol down there, and light it ,to get  the draft started in the right direction,  before lighting the front. Helps a lot , if it is late at at night and the stove pipe is less than clean, and I don't want to clean it right away.| 34819|34605|2018-02-12 15:05:08|brentswain38|Re: Wood Stove Design 3|Lately ,it has been so cold across the Canadian prairies, that teenagers have actually been seen  going around with their pants pulled all the way up.In that kind of cold, you wouldn't try insulate a house with  a single air gap between two surfaces.| 34820|34605|2018-02-12 18:10:15|Matt Malone|Re: Wood Stove Design 3| >Lately ,it has been so cold across the  >Canadian prairies, that teenagers have  >actually been seen  going around with  >their pants pulled all the way up. Good one ! >In that kind of cold, you wouldn't try  >insulate a house with  a single air gap  >between two surfaces. OK, just so we are clear, there are 6 zones/layers: - metal -  insulation - metal -  The convective air gap -- there must be air flow or it will not work very well.  There must be both a large hole low on the stove heat exchanger shroud where cool air can enter, and a hole high on the shroud where very hot air can escape and circulate.   One might even use an electric blower fan to force air into the heat exchanger to get the most out of the woodstove fuel and encourage mixing of the hot air and room air because the air exits as a jet.    - metal -  flue gases of the heat exchanger Think of one's heaviest winter parka.   How does that compare to an 8" thick R25 bat of pink insulation ?   A hint -- no where close.   In fact, if one is in a survival situation try taking the bat insulation out of the wall of a building and wrapping yourself in it -- a layer of plastic on the inside to keep condensation out of the insulation, and a layer of plastic on the outside as a wind break.   Within no time, one will feel overheated.   The reason is, a small insulated back-woods cabin with no heat, just body heat, is what, 400 square feet of insulated surface area?   And a mummy shape of insulation is maybe 24 square feet of surface area?   Q = A delta T/R -- 16 times less area, same R, means delta T is 16 times greater.   It would be like packing 16 people in a little cabin, standing room only.  Within hours it would become too hot from just body heat.   Buildings are entirely different than a jacket.  I little jacket goes a long way. Is that why the insulation layer on hot things is often called a jacket?   Maybe.        Think back to a big old canvas parka.   Say it is -25C outside, and the parka starts off at -10C (because it was hanging it in the porch) before one puts it on.  After a while, what is the temperature of the outside of the parka?  At -25C will snow melt against a properly cooled parka?  No, that is the entire purpose of hanging one's really cold weather clothes in the porch (after drying them).  The outside starts and stays below freezing, so the insulation of the parka stays dry, and one stays warm even with an old canvas parka.   In falling and blowing snow, the snow just falls off like dust.   The key to a parka is to keep the insulation on the parka thin enough that one does not overheat and sweat and soak the insulation from the inside, and then get cold.      That is how one has to think about ovens and stoves -- the purpose is to keep the outside cool ENOUGH that is it not problematic.  One is not actually trying to keep heat in entirely.  If a large fraction of the heat output of a stove leaks out of the insulation to a "cool" surface at 115 F, well, no problem -- 115F will not start fires or burn people to the touch, at least not instantly.   The insulation in the shrouding metal is just there to keep people and things from getting burned.    I have yet to see an electric kitchen stove with more than an inch or so of insulation in it.   At the hottest, after cooking a big meal, my recollection is, I can put my hand on the outside of an electric stove down on the side, beside the oven, and I will not be burnt.   Is it warm ?  Absolutely, but not so hot as to be a problem. Note, ovens only go up to 500F normally, and woodstoves are potentially much hotter, so, more insulation will be needed for the same outcome.   By conductive heat transfer theory, the thickness of the insulation must be proporational to the maximum temperature difference to achieve the same outcome from one case to another.  Say one measures an outside temperature on an electric stove at 115F, when the stove has been cooking at 500F for some time.  Say the stove has one inch of insulation between the oven and the outside wall.   How much insulation do we need for a wood stove at 1270F so the outside is still only 115F?  If Electric Stove: 500F - 115F = 385F uses only 1 inch of insulation, then  Woodstove: 1270F - 115F = 1155F requires 3 inches of insulation because it has 3 times the temperature difference across the insulation.   1270F as a for-instance, for illustration, to make the math easier, don't use my numbers to calculate anything.    Note, do not wrap the outside of the outer shroud in insulation !   Do not screw the outer shroud to a wall with zero air gap.   Heat can build up.  Think, if one wrapped a kitchen stove in insulation and set the oven on 500F, how hot would the outside metal of the stove get inside the insulation ? -- the answer is very hot.  A small air gap around the stove is needed to move heat away from the outer surface.   The convection in the airgap has to be superior at moving heat than the insulation is at leaking it, so that the outside of the stove shroud remains closer to room temperature.    One might also put a coil of copper pipe against the inside of the hottest shroud metal layer for hot water on demand. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wood Stove Design 3     Lately ,it has been so cold across the Canadian prairies, that teenagers have actually been seen  going around with their pants pulled all the way up. In that kind of cold, you wouldn't try insulate a house with  a single air gap between two surfaces. | 34821|34605|2018-02-13 16:43:22|brentswain38|Re: Wood Stove Design 3|On my last boat it was metal ,insulation,metal. As the last metal never got warm , I now have no problem with metal ,insulation, wood.I have found aluminium is a far better metal as it disipates heat over its entire surface ,whereas stainless gets a hot spot and wont disipate it.I have seen a very hot stove right next to a big sheet of aluminium, and the aluminium was not even warm.I have thought about a piece of stovepipe right up against a hot stove, from floor to cabin top, to suck the cold air off the floor and lift it up to the cabin top ,to suck the hot air down. May be an electricity free heat redistribution system| 34822|34605|2018-02-15 01:00:59|Aaron|Re: Wood Stove Design 3|I found this small wood stove picture I attached it so maybe others can see it. On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, 12:43:37 PM AKST, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   On my last boat it was metal ,insulation,metal. As the last metal never got warm , I now have no problem with metal ,insulation, wood. I have found aluminium is a far better metal as it disipates heat over its entire surface ,whereas stainless gets a hot spot and wont disipate it. I have seen a very hot stove right next to a big sheet of aluminium, and the aluminium was not even warm. I have thought about a piece of stovepipe right up against a hot stove, from floor to cabin top, to suck the cold air off the floor and lift it up to the cabin top ,to suck the hot air down. May be an electricity free heat redistribution system [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 34823|34605|2018-02-16 11:50:24|Darren Bos|Upload photos|Can anyone else upload photos to the Origamiboats photos section?  I tried last night and this morning and keep getting the error message "Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content".  I did some googling and it looks like it could be a general Yahoo problem??| 34824|34605|2018-02-16 13:58:03|Aaron|Re: Upload photos|I tried to upload a picture of a mini wood stove and was unable and Yahoo strips the attachments on group emails On Friday, February 16, 2018, 7:50:28 AM AKST, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Can anyone else upload photos to the Origamiboats photos section?  I tried last night and this morning and keep getting the error message "Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content".  I did some googling and it looks like it could be a general Yahoo problem?? | 34825|22723|2018-02-16 15:01:34|aguysailing|Main hatch|Finally decided to get some visibility and light in the main hatch (entrance).  Thinking of a port or plexiglass.   I looked through the list of pic file names, no reference to this.  I would prefer not to open all the folders to find some pics of a port in the main hatch.  If you know of a folder name or could email some pics of yours (aguysailing at yahoo dot ca)   ... thanksBrent:  I am not looking to launch surface to surface missiles out of it just some light and a look out.   Gary| 34826|34605|2018-02-16 15:43:28|Darren Bos|Dry Exhaust details| I'm finally getting around to installing the exhaust system in my boat.  I'd wavered between wet and dry exhaust for a while and had put off the decision while I worked on other things.  However, the interior is going in and I've had to make a decision.  There are surprisingly few resources, other than this forum and Brents book, to figure out dry exhaust for a sailboat.  The few reference sources I have are geared to the typical drystack exhaust found on larger powerboats like Nordhavens.  So, I'd appreciate some critique here before I proceed.  My only options are to run the exhaust straight out the starboard side from the engine or to run the exhaust aft.  Aft seems like it would have fewer risks for getting water into the exhaust when sailing, particularly healed over on a starboard tack.  However, things are a bit cramped to run the exhaust aft.  I can't get the photos section on Yahoo to work so I've uploaded the photos to dropbox, I've also included the full URLs below in case yahoo strips the hyperlinks from the text.  I've put a diagram of what I'm considering is here.  The red outline runs the exhaust straight aft from the engine and only has a gooseneck above the through hull.  The green outline runs the exhaust up to deck height first and then would continue aft just like the red line.  I've also uploaded a few pics of the boat showing the day tank over the engine, the potential run of the exhaust under piltohouse sole, the old exhaust outlet I'd replace with a stainless bolt-on and the already completed keel cooling tanks.  My concern is that the gooseneck above the throughull alone might not be enough to keep water from getting back into the engine?  Perhaps a flapper on the exhaust outlet could also be used to help stop the surge of waves working their way back into the exhaust?  I'd just as soon not run the exhaust to deck level right at the engine (shown in green on diagram), as I think I'd have to move my diesel day tank to make some space.  However, moving the day-tank would be much better than risking water-locking the engine. I've done some back-of-the-envelope calcs and it looks like my 50hp Kubota would give temps of 47C (117F) at cruise and 60C (140F) at full power with 2" of rockwool insulation on 1.5" pipe.  So, it looks like a few inches of extra airspace under the cabin sole and beside the diesel keel-tank might be OK.  Brents observed even lower temps on his install, so I hope all will be well. My questions are: 1)  Do you think the gooseneck just above the through hull (shown in red on the diagram) be enough to protect the engine from water or should I also send the exhaust up to the deck right at the engine (shown in green in the diagram)? 2)  Brents experience and my calcs suggest that 2" clearance airspace around the 2" insulation should be enough (cabin sole and diesel tank).  Any thoughts based on experience would be great. All comments are appreciated, Darren https://www.dropbox.com/s/6x9kh6pd9jlji3e/DryExhaustIdeas2.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tgtouqme5reis1/IMG_8323lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/y8ymc3hkk965pay/IMG_8325lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/jrft66xmdiq33vb/IMG_8324lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2aeescg1blt6h1/IMG_8330lowres2.jpg?dl=0 | 34827|34605|2018-02-16 16:19:19|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Wow Darren, that is some detailed work.   I cannot answer either of your questions directly, however, I would consider both the green and the red goosenecks, and a valve at the low point in the red U shape to drain it should a splash of water get in or combustion condensation accumulate.   I would also be inclined to run two coils of pipe around the green pipes before wrapping it with insulation, and including a steam pressure relief valve in your coolant system -- same idea as a relief rad cap and overflow tank in a car.   The coils around the pipes can be left dry or one can be connected to the coolant circulation between the engine outflow and internal keel cooling tanks, or as part of the domestic water system for hot water to the sink and shower or one for each.   The point is, 100 feet of pipe is not that expensive, and once coiled and wrapped with insulation, one can make up their mind whether or how to use it later.   One could get the exhaust very cool while it still remaining dry.   One might consider making the pipe on the green section 1/2" oversized and then put a swirl baffle down the middle like one finds on gas water heaters -- they can be so cool as to condense the exhaust moisture before considering any insulation.          http://thoughtexpansion.net/water-heater-diagrams/gas-hot-water-heater-parts-diagram-automotive-images-at-diagrams/ It is an efficient way to get heat out of air and into water.   Heat in water is potentially useful, or you can dump it to the keel cooler, so long as one has a pressure relief in place.   Just ideas to increase flexibility later.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 3:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details     I'm finally getting around to installing the exhaust system in my boat.  I'd wavered between wet and dry exhaust for a while and had put off the decision while I worked on other things.  However, the interior is going in and I've had to make a decision.  There are surprisingly few resources, other than this forum and Brents book, to figure out dry exhaust for a sailboat.  The few reference sources I have are geared to the typical drystack exhaust found on larger powerboats like Nordhavens.  So, I'd appreciate some critique here before I proceed.  My only options are to run the exhaust straight out the starboard side from the engine or to run the exhaust aft.  Aft seems like it would have fewer risks for getting water into the exhaust when sailing, particularly healed over on a starboard tack.  However, things are a bit cramped to run the exhaust aft.  I can't get the photos section on Yahoo to work so I've uploaded the photos to dropbox, I've also included the full URLs below in case yahoo strips the hyperlinks from the text.  I've put a diagram of what I'm considering is here.  The red outline runs the exhaust straight aft from the engine and only has a gooseneck above the through hull.  The green outline runs the exhaust up to deck height first and then would continue aft just like the red line.  I've also uploaded a few pics of the boat showing the day tank over the engine, the potential run of the exhaust under piltohouse sole, the old exhaust outlet I'd replace with a stainless bolt-on and the already completed keel cooling tanks.  My concern is that the gooseneck above the throughull alone might not be enough to keep water from getting back into the engine?  Perhaps a flapper on the exhaust outlet could also be used to help stop the surge of waves working their way back into the exhaust?  I'd just as soon not run the exhaust to deck level right at the engine (shown in green on diagram), as I think I'd have to move my diesel day tank to make some space.  However, moving the day-tank would be much better than risking water-locking the engine. I've done some back-of-the-envelope calcs and it looks like my 50hp Kubota would give temps of 47C (117F) at cruise and 60C (140F) at full power with 2" of rockwool insulation on 1.5" pipe.  So, it looks like a few inches of extra airspace under the cabin sole and beside the diesel keel-tank might be OK.  Brents observed even lower temps on his install, so I hope all will be well. My questions are: 1)  Do you think the gooseneck just above the through hull (shown in red on the diagram) be enough to protect the engine from water or should I also send the exhaust up to the deck right at the engine (shown in green in the diagram)? 2)  Brents experience and my calcs suggest that 2" clearance airspace around the 2" insulation should be enough (cabin sole and diesel tank).  Any thoughts based on experience would be great. All comments are appreciated, Darren https://www.dropbox.com/s/6x9kh6pd9jlji3e/DryExhaustIdeas2.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tgtouqme5reis1/IMG_8323lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/y8ymc3hkk965pay/IMG_8325lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/jrft66xmdiq33vb/IMG_8324lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2aeescg1blt6h1/IMG_8330lowres2.jpg?dl=0 | 34828|34605|2018-02-16 19:06:20|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details|Looks like you have plenty of rise in that loop, as long as it is within 16 inches of the centreline.2 inches of fibreglass insulation is plenty. I use a rubber flap on the outside,which,being below the waterline, doesn't burn. A silicone one would probably work above the waterline, as the exhaust has cooled a lot by the time it has gone that far.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I'm finally getting around to installing the exhaust system in my boat.  I'd wavered between wet and dry exhaust for a while and had put off the decision while I worked on other things.  However, the interior is going in and I've had to make a decision.  There are surprisingly few resources, other than this forum and Brents book, to figure out dry exhaust for a sailboat.  The few reference sources I have are geared to the typical drystack exhaust found on larger powerboats like Nordhavens.  So, I'd appreciate some critique here before I proceed.  My only options are to run the exhaust straight out the starboard side from the engine or to run the exhaust aft.  Aft seems like it would have fewer risks for getting water into the exhaust when sailing, particularly healed over on a starboard tack.  However, things are a bit cramped to run the exhaust aft.  I can't get the photos section on Yahoo to work so I've uploaded the photos to dropbox, I've also included the full URLs below in case yahoo strips the hyperlinks from the text.  I've put a diagram of what I'm considering is here.  The red outline runs the exhaust straight aft from the engine and only has a gooseneck above the through hull.  The green outline runs the exhaust up to deck height first and then would continue aft just like the red line.  I've also uploaded a few pics of the boat showing the day tank over the engine, the potential run of the exhaust under piltohouse sole, the old exhaust outlet I'd replace with a stainless bolt-on and the already completed keel cooling tanks.  My concern is that the gooseneck above the throughull alone might not be enough to keep water from getting back into the engine?  Perhaps a flapper on the exhaust outlet could also be used to help stop the surge of waves working their way back into the exhaust?  I'd just as soon not run the exhaust to deck level right at the engine (shown in green on diagram), as I think I'd have to move my diesel day tank to make some space.  However, moving the day-tank would be much better than risking water-locking the engine. I've done some back-of-the-envelope calcs and it looks like my 50hp Kubota would give temps of 47C (117F) at cruise and 60C (140F) at full power with 2" of rockwool insulation on 1.5" pipe.  So, it looks like a few inches of extra airspace under the cabin sole and beside the diesel keel-tank might be OK.  Brents observed even lower temps on his install, so I hope all will be well. My questions are: 1)  Do you think the gooseneck just above the through hull (shown in red on the diagram) be enough to protect the engine from water or should I also send the exhaust up to the deck right at the engine (shown in green in the diagram)? 2)  Brents experience and my calcs suggest that 2" clearance airspace around the 2" insulation should be enough (cabin sole and diesel tank).  Any thoughts based on experience would be great. All comments are appreciated, Darren https://www.dropbox.com/s/6x9kh6pd9jlji3e/DryExhaustIdeas2.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tgtouqme5reis1/IMG_8323lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/y8ymc3hkk965pay/IMG_8325lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/jrft66xmdiq33vb/IMG_8324lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2aeescg1blt6h1/IMG_8330lowres2.jpg?dl=0 | 34829|34605|2018-02-17 12:34:45|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Thanks Brent, that's reassuring.  I have some Chinese ebay Silpat mat (fiberglass reinforced silicone) lying around that I had considered for a flapper.  It is rated for 480F or 280C, so I wondered if it would hold up.  My understanding is that silicone will tolerate some overtemp, but the longer you are at those temps the less flexible it becomes.  I'll try putting the heat gun to some in a well ventilated area to see what happens.  I already keep it on board to use a good replacement for flapper valves in manual diaphragm pumps. I think you've said you use Schedule 40 stainless pipe for the exhaust.  How did you assemble it?  Did you thread the ends and use regular pipe fittings for the bends or did you put larger radius bends in the pipe and weld the sections together?  Also what grade stainless and where it the best place to source it?  I think folks had reported that it is getting harder and harder to find as scrap.  Does anyone know of anything near Vancouver? Thanks, Darren On 18-02-16 03:49 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Looks like you have plenty of rise in that loop, as long as it is within 16 inches of the centreline. 2 inches of fibreglass insulation is plenty. I use a rubber flap on the outside,which,being below the waterline, doesn't burn. A silicone one would probably work above the waterline, as the exhaust has cooled a lot by the time it has gone that far. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I'm finally getting around to installing the exhaust system in my boat.  I'd wavered between wet and dry exhaust for a while and had put off the decision while I worked on other things.  However, the interior is going in and I've had to make a decision.  There are surprisingly few resources, other than this forum and Brents book, to figure out dry exhaust for a sailboat.  The few reference sources I have are geared to the typical drystack exhaust found on larger powerboats like Nordhavens.  So, I'd appreciate some critique here before I proceed.  My only options are to run the exhaust straight out the starboard side from the engine or to run the exhaust aft.  Aft seems like it would have fewer risks for getting water into the exhaust when sailing, particularly healed over on a starboard tack.  However, things are a bit cramped to run the exhaust aft.  I can't get the photos section on Yahoo to work so I've uploaded the photos to dropbox, I've also included the full URLs below in case yahoo strips the hyperlinks from the text.  I've put a diagram of what I'm considering is here.  The red outline runs the exhaust straight aft from the engine and only has a gooseneck above the through hull.  The green outline runs the exhaust up to deck height first and then would continue aft just like the red line.  I've also uploaded a few pics of the boat showing the day tank over the engine, the potential run of the exhaust under piltohouse sole, the old exhaust outlet I'd replace with a stainless bolt-on and the already completed keel cooling tanks.  My concern is that the gooseneck above the throughull alone might not be enough to keep water from getting back into the engine?  Perhaps a flapper on the exhaust outlet could also be used to help stop the surge of waves working their way back into the exhaust?  I'd just as soon not run the exhaust to deck level right at the engine (shown in green on diagram), as I think I'd have to move my diesel day tank to make some space.  However, moving the day-tank would be much better than risking water-locking the engine. I've done some back-of-the-envelope calcs and it looks like my 50hp Kubota would give temps of 47C (117F) at cruise and 60C (140F) at full power with 2" of rockwool insulation on 1.5" pipe.  So, it looks like a few inches of extra airspace under the cabin sole and beside the diesel keel-tank might be OK.  Brents observed even lower temps on his install, so I hope all will be well. My questions are: 1)  Do you think the gooseneck just above the through hull (shown in red on the diagram) be enough to protect the engine from water or should I also send the exhaust up to the deck right at the engine (shown in green in the diagram)? 2)  Brents experience and my calcs suggest that 2" clearance airspace around the 2" insulation should be enough (cabin sole and diesel tank).  Any thoughts based on experience would be great. All comments are appreciated, Darren https://www.dropbox.com/s/6x9kh6pd9jlji3e/DryExhaustIdeas2.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tgtouqme5reis1/IMG_8323lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/y8ymc3hkk965pay/IMG_8325lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/jrft66xmdiq33vb/IMG_8324lowres.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2aeescg1blt6h1/IMG_8330lowres2.jpg?dl=0 | 34830|34605|2018-02-17 12:47:41|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details| I think I'm going to keep it simple for now Matt, there is a lot to do yet to get this boat in the water.  I am tempted to try and use the heat for desalinization, which would also help lower exhaust temps.  Maybe someday. What kind of tubing were you thinking about using to make the coils?  I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable wrapping stainless pipe with copper tubing. What do you have in mind for a valve at the low point of the condensation trap?  I figured the only thing that would stand up to the high temps would be a threaded pipe plug. Darren On 18-02-16 01:19 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Wow Darren, that is some detailed work.   I cannot answer either of your questions directly, however, I would consider both the green and the red goosenecks, and a valve at the low point in the red U shape to drain it should a splash of water get in or combustion condensation accumulate.   I would also be inclined to run two coils of pipe around the green pipes before wrapping it with insulation, and including a steam pressure relief valve in your coolant system -- same idea as a relief rad cap and overflow tank in a car.   The coils around the pipes can be left dry or one can be connected to the coolant circulation between the engine outflow and internal keel cooling tanks, or as part of the domestic water system for hot water to the sink and shower or one for each.   The point is, 100 feet of pipe is not that expensive, and once coiled and wrapped with insulation, one can make up their mind whether or how to use it later.   One could get the exhaust very cool while it still remaining dry.   One might consider making the pipe on the green section 1/2" oversized and then put a swirl baffle down the middle like one finds on gas water heaters -- they can be so cool as to condense the exhaust moisture before considering any insulation.          http://thoughtexpansion.net/water-heater-diagrams/gas-hot-water-heater-parts-diagram-automotive-images-at-diagrams/ It is an efficient way to get heat out of air and into water.   Heat in water is potentially useful, or you can dump it to the keel cooler, so long as one has a pressure relief in place.   Just ideas to increase flexibility later.    Matt | 34831|34605|2018-02-17 14:27:56|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Yes, keeping it simple is a fine alternative. Have a look into the grade of stainless for the heat-desalination of water.   I worked on a salt crystalizer pressure vessel and I recall it had to use a rare grade of stainless to stand up to the temperature and concentration of the salt solution.   Yes, perhaps your temperatures are a little lower, and a lower grade is what the chart shows.   As you do not have great control or measurement of temperature, I would go with the higher concentration/temperature grade, just to avoid problems. Maintaining a uniform temperature profile would be something -- you might end up with crystals forming somewhere.  Yes, copper and stainless, good point.  How about copper and copper?  Copper and Monel?  I can't remember the high salinity and temperatures limits for Monel.   But Monel is rare.   Perhaps a stainless jacket on a stainless pipe?   That is simpler, a pipe an inch larger, and two rings of square stock, welded to the outside, the jacket slipped on and seal-welded.    Do not overlook the counter-flow heat exchanger opportunities that would arise from convection up around the downward travelling section of the green pipe, if it was jacketed.   You are right though, that is not keeping it as simple as just a pipe wrapped with insulation.    Yes, you are right, if you avoid actively cooling the green loop, then the red path will be exhaust temperature, and you are right, a plug is the simplest valve.   You can get plugs in stainless. Yes, you are right to try and reuse the heat energy of diesel.   One might get 40% of the heat out of the diesel this way.   Diesel is 48 MJ/kg, water to vapour is about 2.2MJ/kg... so at best one can get, assuming 100% efficient counterflow heat exchangers on the exhaust and dead cold water going to the keel coolers is about 7 liters of water for each liter of diesel before considering the efficiency of heat recovery both from the hot brine and the vapor.  Say that is 80% efficient, that is 28 liters of water per liter of diesel.   That is not a good trade.   Wood/dunnage to water, or solar to water is a far better trade if one is using heat desalination.    Efficient membrane pressure desalinators are about 35kJ/kg of water: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Choosing-a-Watermaker 9Ah for 4 (US) gallons, or 486kJ for 15.1 liters -- remember battery charging is closer to 15V. .... so about 60 times less energy than vapourizing water.   The problem is, then the energy has to be electricity, and it is not waste the engine would produce anyway.   I am just thinking about the mass of piping and heat exchangers to get something even 98% efficient in heat recovery to make heat-desalination even comparable to electricity and pressure desalination.   If the electricity is coming from a 50% efficient diesel engine, and 80% efficient alternator, the cost of water is about 550 liters of water per litre of diesel, as in, plenty of water, if one is running the engine anyway for other reasons.   If diesel is $2/liter, that is 0.36 cents / liter for water, plus the costs of membrane and filter changes.   It uses equipment you already have, and the desalinator is compact, but expensive.    I suspect Brent's water maker is more likely the budget route, and the less complexity route, all things considered.   I have not seen Brent's design but I bet it is brutally simple, fool-proof, and has no pressure recovery from the brine stream.  If so, then a modification of Brent's design to better recover pressure from the brine flow to better match commercial unit efficiencies might be a better design project.  I would put the money and complexity into water and wind turbines, and solar panels, so some water is diesel-free water.    For a huge plant doing heat deslaination, where one is burning anything, 100% of the energy goes to heat and near 100% of the heat can be recycled in huge heat exchangers, so one can get close to electrical to pressure desalination efficiencies, maybe better, if one considers the inefficiency of fuel to electricity.        Matt    From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details     I think I'm going to keep it simple for now Matt, there is a lot to do yet to get this boat in the water.  I am tempted to try and use the heat for desalinization, which would also help lower exhaust temps.  Maybe someday. What kind of tubing were you thinking about using to make the coils?  I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable wrapping stainless pipe with copper tubing. What do you have in mind for a valve at the low point of the condensation trap?  I figured the only thing that would stand up to the high temps would be a threaded pipe plug. Darren On 18-02-16 01:19 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Wow Darren, that is some detailed work.   I cannot answer either of your questions directly, however, I would consider both the green and the red goosenecks, and a valve at the low point in the red U shape to drain it should a splash of water get in or combustion condensation accumulate.   I would also be inclined to run two coils of pipe around the green pipes before wrapping it with insulation, and including a steam pressure relief valve in your coolant system -- same idea as a relief rad cap and overflow tank in a car.   The coils around the pipes can be left dry or one can be connected to the coolant circulation between the engine outflow and internal keel cooling tanks, or as part of the domestic water system for hot water to the sink and shower or one for each.   The point is, 100 feet of pipe is not that expensive, and once coiled and wrapped with insulation, one can make up their mind whether or how to use it later.   One could get the exhaust very cool while it still remaining dry.   One might consider making the pipe on the green section 1/2" oversized and then put a swirl baffle down the middle like one finds on gas water heaters -- they can be so cool as to condense the exhaust moisture before considering any insulation.          http://thoughtexpansion.net/water-heater-diagrams/gas-hot-water-heater-parts-diagram-automotive-images-at-diagrams/ It is an efficient way to get heat out of air and into water.   Heat in water is potentially useful, or you can dump it to the keel cooler, so long as one has a pressure relief in place.   Just ideas to increase flexibility later.    Matt | 34832|34832|2018-02-17 16:04:35|Mario Jorge Andrade|Scrounging a cheap boat|Hello.I found this interesting article:https://www.cruisingworld.com/finding-good-cheap-boat| 34833|34605|2018-02-17 18:38:41|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details|Yes, I use sch 40 stainless pipe, with large radius bends,  bent on a hydraulic pipe bender. I try weld as much as possible full length, and use SS pipe unions where necessary. You can bend up a piece of conduit to use as a pattern, or make a pattern out of ABS pipe and fittings .You can also find thin walled SS tubing which is a tight fit over sch 40, , and use muffler clamps and silicone. Much  easier to find SS pipe nipples, cut them in half, and weld them on, rather than thread the pipe. I have been told of  a great scrapyard in Delta BC, which sells scrap stainless type 316 for $1.25 a pound. ABC Scrap is also a good source. I use all type 316 stainless, which has lasted me over 3 decades as an exhaust pipe. Doesn't  work for wet exhaust, as it corrodes badly where sea water is injected. No such problem with  a dry exhaust.    ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks Brent, that's reassuring.  I have some Chinese ebay Silpat mat (fiberglass reinforced silicone) lying around that I had considered for a flapper.  It is rated for 480F or 280C, so I wondered if it would hold up.  My understanding is that silicone will tolerate some overtemp, but the longer you are at those temps the less flexible it becomes.  I'll try putting the heat gun to some in a well ventilated area to see what happens.  I already keep it on board to use a good replacement for flapper valves in manual diaphragm pumps.I think you've said you use Schedule 40 stainless pipe for the exhaust.  How did you assemble it?  Did you thread the ends and use regular pipe fittings for the bends or did you put larger radius bends in the pipe and weld the sections together?  Also what grade stainless and where it the best place to source it?  I think folks had reported that it is getting harder and harder to find as scrap.  Does anyone know of anything near Vancouver?Thanks,Darren | 34834|34832|2018-02-17 18:49:54|brentswain38|Re: Scrounging a cheap boat|Great article!Check out a recent November issue of Sail Magazine, which contained an article titled " Dream Boat or Derelict " for what to look for  in a used boat. I believe similar articles have come out lately. If the hull ends up having too many problems, you still have a rig , sails, winches and enough  gear to outfit a new hull, saving  a fortune. He made a good point about a new boat not always being better than a used one. Older boats are often far better built than any new builder could afford to build, and stay in business today. A friend, and Cape Horn and Southern Ocean veteran once bought  a Crealock 37, "Built like a brick shithouse!" Years later, she went to visit their shop, and was horrified by  how much they had reduced the scantlings. When she asked " Aren't you concerned about safety?"They said "No way! Our only concern is profit margin!"Most here are mainly interested in the supreme safety of  a metal boat, but I have often suggested that clients who are boatless, should buy a super cheap  plastic one,  for the experience, a place to  live while building, and the gear.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hello.I found this interesting article:https://www.cruisingworld.com/finding-good-cheap-boat| 34835|34832|2018-02-17 19:11:58|Matt Malone|Re: Scrounging a cheap boat| The old boats that were not well built sunk, or were the first ones abandoned by insurance companies after hurricanes, or were scrapped decades ago for their gear.   Old boats can still be money pits, should still be surveyed closely, and can still suffer major failures during the years a particular owner owns them.  Still if it has floated/worked for 30, 40 years, its not likely to pack it in completely in the next year, not with regular inspections and maintenence.  If one stays coastal, not far from a port at any time, I would not even be inclined to replace too much, so long as it kept checking-out, inspecting as OK.  The chance of two major failures before reaching port are very low.   Most everything on a sailboat has redundancy. The article just sounds to me like what salesmen have been doing for years.  If you are a buyer, run down the product.  If you are a seller, promote it.  It is the difference they live on. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, February 17, 18:50 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Scrounging a cheap boat To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Great article! Check out a recent November issue of Sail Magazine, which contained an article titled " Dream Boat or Derelict " for what to look for  in a used boat. I believe similar articles have come out lately. If the hull ends up having too many problems, you still have a rig , sails, winches and enough  gear to outfit a new hull, saving  a fortune.  He made a good point about a new boat not always being better than a used one. Older boats are often far better built than any new builder could afford to build, and stay in business today. A friend, and Cape Horn and Southern Ocean veteran once bought  a Crealock 37, "Built like a brick shithouse!"  Years later, she went to visit their shop, and was horrified by  how much they had reduced the scantlings. When she asked " Aren't you concerned about safety?" They said "No way! Our only concern is profit margin!" Most here are mainly interested in the supreme safety of  a metal boat, but I have often suggested that clients who are boatless, should buy a super cheap  plastic one,  for the experience, a place to  live while building, and the gear. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hello. I found this interesting article: https://www.cruisingworld.com/finding-good-cheap-boat | 34836|34605|2018-02-19 00:55:38|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Agreed Matt, it was more about the benefit of cooling the exhaust.  However, for the reasons you state, and the fact the Brent has observed a cool exhaust without the additional complication, it is an idea probably best left on the shelf. I have had a look at the Spectra watermakers and the pressure recovery they employ is pretty clever.  Apparently the design idea dates back to steam engines.  I spoke with one boat who managed DC refrigeration, a spectra watermaker along with all their other DC loads on 400 watts solar.  However, a spectra is a lot more expensive than the brute force approach of the engine driven pressure washer pump-home build.  The pressure washer pump can have much higher output, so if you are motoring on a semi regular basis that is a much less expensive way to go.  Darren On 18-02-17 11:27 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, keeping it simple is a fine alternative. Have a look into the grade of stainless for the heat-desalination of water.   I worked on a salt crystalizer pressure vessel and I recall it had to use a rare grade of stainless to stand up to the temperature and concentration of the salt solution.   Yes, perhaps your temperatures are a little lower, and a lower grade is what the chart shows.   As you do not have great control or measurement of temperature, I would go with the higher concentration/temperature grade, just to avoid problems. Maintaining a uniform temperature profile would be something -- you might end up with crystals forming somewhere.  Yes, copper and stainless, good point.  How about copper and copper?  Copper and Monel?  I can't remember the high salinity and temperatures limits for Monel.   But Monel is rare.   Perhaps a stainless jacket on a stainless pipe?   That is simpler, a pipe an inch larger, and two rings of square stock, welded to the outside, the jacket slipped on and seal-welded.    Do not overlook the counter-flow heat exchanger opportunities that would arise from convection up around the downward travelling section of the green pipe, if it was jacketed.   You are right though, that is not keeping it as simple as just a pipe wrapped with insulation.    Yes, you are right, if you avoid actively cooling the green loop, then the red path will be exhaust temperature, and you are right, a plug is the simplest valve.   You can get plugs in stainless. Yes, you are right to try and reuse the heat energy of diesel.   One might get 40% of the heat out of the diesel this way.   Diesel is 48 MJ/kg, water to vapour is about 2.2MJ/kg... so at best one can get, assuming 100% efficient counterflow heat exchangers on the exhaust and dead cold water going to the keel coolers is about 7 liters of water for each liter of diesel before considering the efficiency of heat recovery both from the hot brine and the vapor.  Say that is 80% efficient, that is 28 liters of water per liter of diesel.   That is not a good trade.   Wood/dunnage to water, or solar to water is a far better trade if one is using heat desalination.    Efficient membrane pressure desalinators are about 35kJ/kg of water: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Choosing-a-Watermaker 9Ah for 4 (US) gallons, or 486kJ for 15.1 liters -- remember battery charging is closer to 15V. .... so about 60 times less energy than vapourizing water.   The problem is, then the energy has to be electricity, and it is not waste the engine would produce anyway.   I am just thinking about the mass of piping and heat exchangers to get something even 98% efficient in heat recovery to make heat-desalination even comparable to electricity and pressure desalination.   If the electricity is coming from a 50% efficient diesel engine, and 80% efficient alternator, the cost of water is about 550 liters of water per litre of diesel, as in, plenty of water, if one is running the engine anyway for other reasons.   If diesel is $2/liter, that is 0.36 cents / liter for water, plus the costs of membrane and filter changes.   It uses equipment you already have, and the desalinator is compact, but expensive.    I suspect Brent's water maker is more likely the budget route, and the less complexity route, all things considered.   I have not seen Brent's design but I bet it is brutally simple, fool-proof, and has no pressure recovery from the brine stream.  If so, then a modification of Brent's design to better recover pressure from the brine flow to better match commercial unit efficiencies might be a better design project.  I would put the money and complexity into water and wind turbines, and solar panels, so some water is diesel-free water.    For a huge plant doing heat deslaination, where one is burning anything, 100% of the energy goes to heat and near 100% of the heat can be recycled in huge heat exchangers, so one can get close to electrical to pressure desalination efficiencies, maybe better, if one considers the inefficiency of fuel to electricity.        Matt    | 34837|34605|2018-02-19 01:00:36|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Thanks Brent, you saved me from trying to thread stainless pipe.  Is there a trick to doing a 180 degre bend on a hydraulic bender?  I did some aluminum guards for my dorades, but gave in and welded two 90s after trying to do a 180.  It would be nice to do the 180 gooseneck above the exhaust exit in one piece. On 18-02-17 03:29 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, I use sch 40 stainless pipe, with large radius bends,  bent on a hydraulic pipe bender. I try weld as much as possible full length, and use SS pipe unions where necessary. You can bend up a piece of conduit to use as a pattern, or make a pattern out of ABS pipe and fittings .You can also find thin walled SS tubing which is a tight fit over sch 40, , and use muffler clamps and silicone.  Much  easier to find SS pipe nipples, cut them in half, and weld them on, rather than thread the pipe.  I have been told of  a great scrapyard in Delta BC, which sells scrap stainless type 316 for $1.25 a pound. ABC Scrap is also a good source. I use all type 316 stainless, which has lasted me over 3 decades as an exhaust pipe. Doesn't  work for wet exhaust, as it corrodes badly where sea water is injected. No such problem with  a dry exhaust.    | 34838|34605|2018-02-19 11:15:26|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Darren, I suspect they use one symmetrically-machined, shuttling, free-piston that is machined to different diameters fitting into sleeves of different diameters, and the ratio of diameters and differences in area lead to a particular ratio of seawater to waste brine.   I am wondering if there is any way to implement this with inexpensively produced industrial products.   I wonder if there is such a thing as stainless and teflon hydraulic oil cylinders that will serve for salt water.     The challenge is, the bulk modulus of water is so high that very tight machining is required to get pressure recovery -- little leak/bypass flow is zero recovery.  When one considers the costs of that, and the pump and the valves used to cycle the system a commercial water maker might not be that expensive compared to quality buying parts.   Also, a commercial water maker runs from electricity, which you point out you may have other sources of than the engine and diesel.    Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details     Agreed Matt, it was more about the benefit of cooling the exhaust.  However, for the reasons you state, and the fact the Brent has observed a cool exhaust without the additional complication, it is an idea probably best left on the shelf. I have had a look at the Spectra watermakers and the pressure recovery they employ is pretty clever.  Apparently the design idea dates back to steam engines.  I spoke with one boat who managed DC refrigeration, a spectra watermaker along with all their other DC loads on 400 watts solar.  However, a spectra is a lot more expensive than the brute force approach of the engine driven pressure washer pump-home build.  The pressure washer pump can have much higher output, so if you are motoring on a semi regular basis that is a much less expensive way to go.  Darren On 18-02-17 11:27 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, keeping it simple is a fine alternative. Have a look into the grade of stainless for the heat-desalination of water.   I worked on a salt crystalizer pressure vessel and I recall it had to use a rare grade of stainless to stand up to the temperature and concentration of the salt solution.   Yes, perhaps your temperatures are a little lower, and a lower grade is what the chart shows.   As you do not have great control or measurement of temperature, I would go with the higher concentration/temperature grade, just to avoid problems. Maintaining a uniform temperature profile would be something -- you might end up with crystals forming somewhere.  Yes, copper and stainless, good point.  How about copper and copper?  Copper and Monel?  I can't remember the high salinity and temperatures limits for Monel.   But Monel is rare.   Perhaps a stainless jacket on a stainless pipe?   That is simpler, a pipe an inch larger, and two rings of square stock, welded to the outside, the jacket slipped on and seal-welded.    Do not overlook the counter-flow heat exchanger opportunities that would arise from convection up around the downward travelling section of the green pipe, if it was jacketed.   You are right though, that is not keeping it as simple as just a pipe wrapped with insulation.    Yes, you are right, if you avoid actively cooling the green loop, then the red path will be exhaust temperature, and you are right, a plug is the simplest valve.   You can get plugs in stainless. Yes, you are right to try and reuse the heat energy of diesel.   One might get 40% of the heat out of the diesel this way.   Diesel is 48 MJ/kg, water to vapour is about 2.2MJ/kg... so at best one can get, assuming 100% efficient counterflow heat exchangers on the exhaust and dead cold water going to the keel coolers is about 7 liters of water for each liter of diesel before considering the efficiency of heat recovery both from the hot brine and the vapor.  Say that is 80% efficient, that is 28 liters of water per liter of diesel.   That is not a good trade.   Wood/dunnage to water, or solar to water is a far better trade if one is using heat desalination.    Efficient membrane pressure desalinators are about 35kJ/kg of water: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Choosing-a-Watermaker 9Ah for 4 (US) gallons, or 486kJ for 15.1 liters -- remember battery charging is closer to 15V. .... so about 60 times less energy than vapourizing water.   The problem is, then the energy has to be electricity, and it is not waste the engine would produce anyway.   I am just thinking about the mass of piping and heat exchangers to get something even 98% efficient in heat recovery to make heat-desalination even comparable to electricity and pressure desalination.   If the electricity is coming from a 50% efficient diesel engine, and 80% efficient alternator, the cost of water is about 550 liters of water per litre of diesel, as in, plenty of water, if one is running the engine anyway for other reasons.   If diesel is $2/liter, that is 0.36 cents / liter for water, plus the costs of membrane and filter changes.   It uses equipment you already have, and the desalinator is compact, but expensive.    I suspect Brent's water maker is more likely the budget route, and the less complexity route, all things considered.   I have not seen Brent's design but I bet it is brutally simple, fool-proof, and has no pressure recovery from the brine stream.  If so, then a modification of Brent's design to better recover pressure from the brine flow to better match commercial unit efficiencies might be a better design project.  I would put the money and complexity into water and wind turbines, and solar panels, so some water is diesel-free water.    For a huge plant doing heat deslaination, where one is burning anything, 100% of the energy goes to heat and near 100% of the heat can be recycled in huge heat exchangers, so one can get close to electrical to pressure desalination efficiencies, maybe better, if one considers the inefficiency of fuel to electricity.        Matt    | 34839|34605|2018-02-19 12:28:13|garyhlucas|Re: Dry Exhaust details| There is another interesting energy recovery method out there.  It uses a round ceramic rotor with with multiple holes through from end to end.  The feed water and the reject water come in from opposite ends and the water moves back and forth as it rotates transferring the pressure from the reject to the feed water as if there were pistons in the holes but it is just water against water. The units I saw pictures of were not large enough for municipal desal plants so maybe they have a boat sized version.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 11:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details       Darren,   I suspect they use one symmetrically-machined, shuttling, free-piston that is machined to different diameters fitting into sleeves of different diameters, and the ratio of diameters and differences in area lead to a particular ratio of seawater to waste brine.    I am wondering if there is any way to implement this with inexpensively produced industrial products.   I wonder if there is such a thing as stainless and teflon hydraulic oil cylinders that will serve for salt water.    The challenge is, the bulk modulus of water is so high that very tight machining is required to get pressure recovery -- little leak/bypass flow is zero recovery.  When one considers the costs of that, and the pump and the valves used to cycle the system a commercial water maker might not be that expensive compared to quality buying parts.   Also, a commercial water maker runs from electricity, which you point out you may have other sources of than the engine and diesel.     Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:55 AMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details     Agreed Matt, it was more about the benefit of cooling the exhaust.  However, for the reasons you state, and the fact the Brent has observed a cool exhaust without the additional complication, it is an idea probably best left on the shelf. I have had a look at the Spectra watermakers and the pressure recovery they employ is pretty clever.  Apparently the design idea dates back to steam engines.  I spoke with one boat who managed DC refrigeration, a spectra watermaker along with all their other DC loads on 400 watts solar.  However, a spectra is a lot more expensive than the brute force approach of the engine driven pressure washer pump-home build.  The pressure washer pump can have much higher output, so if you are motoring on a semi regular basis that is a much less expensive way to go.  Darren On 18-02-17 11:27 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:     Yes, keeping it simple is a fine alternative.   Have a look into the grade of stainless for the heat-desalination of water.   I worked on a salt crystalizer pressure vessel and I recall it had to use a rare grade of stainless to stand up to the temperature and concentration of the salt solution.   Yes, perhaps your temperatures are a little lower, and a lower grade is what the chart shows.   As you do not have great control or measurement of temperature, I would go with the higher concentration/temperature grade, just to avoid problems.   Maintaining a uniform temperature profile would be something -- you might end up with crystals forming somewhere.   Yes, copper and stainless, good point.  How about copper and copper?  Copper and Monel?  I can't remember the high salinity and temperatures limits for Monel.   But Monel is rare.   Perhaps a stainless jacket on a stainless pipe?   That is simpler, a pipe an inch larger, and two rings of square stock, welded to the outside, the jacket slipped on and seal-welded.     Do not overlook the counter-flow heat exchanger opportunities that would arise from convection up around the downward travelling section of the green pipe, if it was jacketed.    You are right though, that is not keeping it as simple as just a pipe wrapped with insulation.     Yes, you are right, if you avoid actively cooling the green loop, then the red path will be exhaust temperature, and you are right, a plug is the simplest valve.   You can get plugs in stainless.   Yes, you are right to try and reuse the heat energy of diesel.   One might get 40% of the heat out of the diesel this way.   Diesel is 48 MJ/kg, water to vapour is about 2.2MJ/kg... so at best one can get, assuming 100% efficient counterflow heat exchangers on the exhaust and dead cold water going to the keel coolers is about 7 liters of water for each liter of diesel before considering the efficiency of heat recovery both from the hot brine and the vapor.  Say that is 80% efficient, that is 28 liters of water per liter of diesel.   That is not a good trade.   Wood/dunnage to water, or solar to water is a far better trade if one is using heat desalination.     Efficient membrane pressure desalinators are about 35kJ/kg of water: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Choosing-a-Watermaker   9Ah for 4 (US) gallons, or 486kJ for 15.1 liters -- remember battery charging is closer to 15V.   .... so about 60 times less energy than vapourizing water.   The problem is, then the energy has to be electricity, and it is not waste the engine would produce anyway.  I am just thinking about the mass of piping and heat exchangers to get something even 98% efficient in heat recovery to make heat-desalination even comparable to electricity and pressure desalination.  If the electricity is coming from a 50% efficient diesel engine, and 80% efficient alternator, the cost of water is about 550 liters of water per litre of diesel, as in, plenty of water, if one is running the engine anyway for other reasons.   If diesel is $2/liter, that is 0.36 cents / liter for water, plus the costs of membrane and filter changes.   It uses equipment you already have, and the desalinator is compact, but expensive.   I suspect Brent's water maker is more likely the budget route, and the less complexity route, all things considered.   I have not seen Brent's design but I bet it is brutally simple, fool-proof, and has no pressure recovery from the brine stream.  If so, then a modification of Brent's design to better recover pressure from the brine flow to better match commercial unit efficiencies might be a better design project.  I would put the money and complexity into water and wind turbines, and solar panels, so some water is diesel-free water.   For a huge plant doing heat deslaination, where one is burning anything, 100% of the energy goes to heat and near 100% of the heat can be recycled in huge heat exchangers, so one can get close to electrical to pressure desalination efficiencies, maybe better, if one considers the inefficiency of fuel to electricity.         Matt   | 34840|34605|2018-02-19 13:46:33|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details|You can stick a cooking thermometer under the insulation, at the back of the exhaust pipe, to see what the temperature is back there. It wont be all that high.| 34841|34605|2018-02-19 13:47:22|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details|Yes, I think welding two 90s is the best you can do.| 34842|34605|2018-02-19 13:52:55|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details|I found that  a General TT911 3GPM pressure washer pump works well for a water maker pump. Price, around $300. A friend has been using one since the 90's, no problem. Any 3GPM pump with ceramic plungers will work.| 34843|34605|2018-02-19 19:19:18|opuspaul|Watermaker|Spectra watermakes are extremely expensive.   The cost of parts to make your own engine or electric unit has really come down.   Cruise RO is a good source for the membranes and they have a good series of videos.   Other parts like guages/etc can be sourced through China from aliexpress or from amazon.https://www.youtube.com/user/CruiseROWater/videosThe sailing vessel Soggy Paws has done a very good write up on building your own watermaker.  Scroll down.http://www.svsoggypaws.com/presentations.htm| 34844|34832|2018-02-20 16:30:39|brentswain38|Re: Scrounging a cheap boat|The latest issue of Pacific Yachting has a good article on how to recognize if a boat has had major repairs.| 34845|34605|2018-02-20 17:11:15|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details| Amazing Gary, The tolerances must be insane.  With a pump, 1% leak is still 99% output.  With this 0.01% leak could be zero recovery.  I wonder how long it lasts.  Very cool though. Matt From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, February 19, 12:30 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   There is another interesting energy recovery method out there.  It uses a round ceramic rotor with with multiple holes through from end to end.  The feed water and the reject water come in from opposite ends and the water moves back and forth as it rotates transferring the pressure from the reject to the feed water as if there were pistons in the holes but it is just water against water. The units I saw pictures of were not large enough for municipal desal plants so maybe they have a boat sized version.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 11:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details       Darren,   I suspect they use one symmetrically-machined, shuttling, free-piston that is machined to different diameters fitting into sleeves of different diameters, and the ratio of diameters and differences in area lead to a particular ratio of seawater to waste brine.    I am wondering if there is any way to implement this with inexpensively produced industrial products.   I wonder if there is such a thing as stainless and teflon hydraulic oil cylinders that will serve for salt water.    The challenge is, the bulk modulus of water is so high that very tight machining is required to get pressure recovery -- little leak/bypass flow is zero recovery.  When one considers the costs of that, and the pump and the valves used to cycle the system a commercial water maker might not be that expensive compared to quality buying parts.   Also, a commercial water maker runs from electricity, which you point out you may have other sources of than the engine and diesel.     Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details     Agreed Matt, it was more about the benefit of cooling the exhaust.  However, for the reasons you state, and the fact the Brent has observed a cool exhaust without the additional complication, it is an idea probably best left on the shelf. I have had a look at the Spectra watermakers and the pressure recovery they employ is pretty clever.  Apparently the design idea dates back to steam engines.  I spoke with one boat who managed DC refrigeration, a spectra watermaker along with all their other DC loads on 400 watts solar.  However, a spectra is a lot more expensive than the brute force approach of the engine driven pressure washer pump-home build.  The pressure washer pump can have much higher output, so if you are motoring on a semi regular basis that is a much less expensive way to go.  Darren On 18-02-17 11:27 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:     Yes, keeping it simple is a fine alternative.   Have a look into the grade of stainless for the heat-desalination of water.   I worked on a salt crystalizer pressure vessel and I recall it had to use a rare grade of stainless to stand up to the temperature and concentration of the salt solution.   Yes, perhaps your temperatures are a little lower, and a lower grade is what the chart shows.   As you do not have great control or measurement of temperature, I would go with the higher concentration/temperature grade, just to avoid problems.   Maintaining a uniform temperature profile would be something -- you might end up with crystals forming somewhere.   Yes, copper and stainless, good point.  How about copper and copper?  Copper and Monel?  I can't remember the high salinity and temperatures limits for Monel.   But Monel is rare.   Perhaps a stainless jacket on a stainless pipe?   That is simpler, a pipe an inch larger, and two rings of square stock, welded to the outside, the jacket slipped on and seal-welded.     Do not overlook the counter-flow heat exchanger opportunities that would arise from convection up around the downward travelling section of the green pipe, if it was jacketed.    You are right though, that is not keeping it as simple as just a pipe wrapped with insulation.     Yes, you are right, if you avoid actively cooling the green loop, then the red path will be exhaust temperature, and you are right, a plug is the simplest valve.   You can get plugs in stainless.   Yes, you are right to try and reuse the heat energy of diesel.   One might get 40% of the heat out of the diesel this way.   Diesel is 48 MJ/kg, water to vapour is about 2.2MJ/kg... so at best one can get, assuming 100% efficient counterflow heat exchangers on the exhaust and dead cold water going to the keel coolers is about 7 liters of water for each liter of diesel before considering the efficiency of heat recovery both from the hot brine and the vapor.  Say that is 80% efficient, that is 28 liters of water per liter of diesel.   That is not a good trade.   Wood/dunnage to water, or solar to water is a far better trade if one is using heat desalination.     Efficient membrane pressure desalinators are about 35kJ/kg of water: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Choosing-a-Watermaker   9Ah for 4 (US) gallons, or 486kJ for 15.1 liters -- remember battery charging is closer to 15V.   .... so about 60 times less energy than vapourizing water.   The problem is, then the energy has to be electricity, and it is not waste the engine would produce anyway.  I am just thinking about the mass of piping and heat exchangers to get something even 98% efficient in heat recovery to make heat-desalination even comparable to electricity and pressure desalination.  If the electricity is coming from a 50% efficient diesel engine, and 80% efficient alternator, the cost of water is about 550 liters of water per litre of diesel, as in, plenty of water, if one is running the engine anyway for other reasons.   If diesel is $2/liter, that is 0.36 cents / liter for water, plus the costs of membrane and filter changes.   It uses equipment you already have, and the desalinator is compact, but expensive.   I suspect Brent's water maker is more likely the budget route, and the less complexity route, all things considered.   I have not seen Brent's design but I bet it is brutally simple, fool-proof, and has no pressure recovery from the brine stream.  If so, then a modification of Brent's design to better recover pressure from the brine flow to better match commercial unit efficiencies might be a better design project.  I would put the money and complexity into water and wind turbines, and solar panels, so some water is diesel-free water.   For a huge plant doing heat deslaination, where one is burning anything, 100% of the energy goes to heat and near 100% of the heat can be recycled in huge heat exchangers, so one can get close to electrical to pressure desalination efficiencies, maybe better, if one considers the inefficiency of fuel to electricity.         Matt   | 34846|34605|2018-02-20 17:11:50|brentswain38|Re: Watermaker|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My book has the instructions for building your own 540 gallon per day watermaker. Mine cost me just over $700 to build, and has worked fine for many years. Wolf ,who told me how, said electric dives are the main source of problems.My belt drive off the main engine is the simplest and most reliable.Running the engine a bit every few days is a good idea anyway, for  the benefit of the engine.In most harbours, people go for  a day trip outside the harbour, to get into cleaner water, to convert to fresh.Spectra watermakers are extremely expensive.   The cost of parts to make your own engine or electric unit has really come down.   Cruise RO is a good source for the membranes and they have a good series of videos.   Other parts like guages/etc can be sourced through China from ali express or from amazon.https://www.youtube.com/user/CruiseROWater/videosThe sailing vessel Soggy Paws has done a very good write up on building your own watermaker.  Scroll down.http://www.svsoggypaws.com/presentations.htm| 34847|34605|2018-02-21 15:09:50|opuspaul|Re: Watermaker|I  have an early version of your book.  It doesn't have the later items like the watermaker in it.  I didn't realize you build them so cheap.  Is that with all new or some used parts?I agree about keeping it simple and going belt drive.  I have a hydraulic pump belted off the main engine.  It drives either the anchor winch motor or the watermaker motor via a selector valve.  It took my awhile to get the bugs out but I have now been using this system with relatively few problems for close to 20 years.  The hydraulic drive cost a few dollars to put in but I love having a powered anchor winch.   I think it is has saved my boat from being on the beach a couple of times.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My book has the instructions for building your own 540 gallon per day watermaker. Mine cost me just over $700 to build, and has worked fine for many years. Wolf ,who told me how, said electric dives are the main source of problems.My belt drive off the main engine is the simplest and most reliable.Running the engine a bit every few days is a good idea anyway, for  the benefit of the engine.In most harbours, people go for  a day trip outside the harbour, to get into cleaner water, to convert to fresh.| 34848|34605|2018-02-21 18:37:59|brentswain38|Re: Watermaker|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, the water maker was added in around 2003. Couldn't add it until I built one.  I have added a lot since the early editions.The pump is new , as are the hoses, membrane, pre-filtre,etc. The pressure housing is 2/1/2 inch SS sch 40 pipe, at scrap prices , which is a perfect fit for the standard membranes. The needle valve is from the scrapyard . The pressure gauge and relief valve are new. I  have an early version of your book.  It doesn't have the later items like the watermaker in it.  I didn't realize you build them so cheap.  Is that with all new or some used parts?I agree about keeping it simple and going belt drive.  I have a hydraulic pump belted off the main engine.  It drives either the anchor winch motor or the watermaker motor via a selector valve.  It took my awhile to get the bugs out but I have now been using this system with relatively few problems for close to 20 years.  The hydraulic drive cost a few dollars to put in but I love having a powered anchor winch.   I think it is has saved my boat from being on the beach a couple of times.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My book has the instructions for building your own 540 gallon per day watermaker. Mine cost me just over $700 to build, and has worked fine for many years. Wolf ,who told me how, said electric dives are the main source of problems.My belt drive off the main engine is the simplest and most reliable.Running the engine a bit every few days is a good idea anyway, for  the benefit of the engine.In most harbours, people go for  a day trip outside the harbour, to get into cleaner water, to convert to fresh.| 34849|34849|2018-03-04 18:38:42|brentswain38|36 for sale|There is a well finished 36 for sale in Hawaii, at the Alawai boat basin, in Honolulu.| 34850|34605|2018-03-06 08:52:50|mkriley48|Re: Watermaker|have  a link?MK| 34851|34605|2018-03-06 17:19:50|brentswain38|Re: Watermaker|Link to what?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :have  a link?MK| 34852|34605|2018-03-06 17:22:16|Matt Malone|Re: Watermaker| Perhaps the pressure pump, 911 or something.  I searched it, it seemed to be the an old model.   All I found were other models. Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 5:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Watermaker     Link to what? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : have  a link? MK | 34853|34605|2018-03-06 17:34:13|brentswain38|Re: Watermaker|Yes, I bought mine in 99.Model TT911. Any 3 GPM  pressure washer pump with ceramic plungers will work---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1103344337 #ygrps-yiv-1103344337ygrps-yiv-70210566 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Perhaps the pressure pump, 911 or something.  I searched it, it seemed to be the an old model.   All I found were other models. Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 5:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Watermaker   Link to what? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : have  a link? MK| 34854|34605|2018-03-06 22:53:24|Darren Bos|Re: Watermaker| Brent, your book says TT9111 rather than TT911.  I found the TT9111 is still available online. On 18-03-06 02:34 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, I bought mine in 99.Model TT911. Any 3 GPM  pressure washer pump with ceramic plungers will work ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Perhaps the pressure pump, 911 or something.  I searched it, it seemed to be the an old model.   All I found were other models. Matt  | 34855|34855|2018-03-07 15:40:01|arthur saftlas|Contact for the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?|Do you have info on the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?Thx! "The cure for anything is salt water; sweat, tears, or the sea." - Karen Blixen | 34856|34605|2018-03-07 17:32:43|brentswain38|Re: Watermaker|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Typo. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll change it.If I waited to get all the typos out, the book would have taken forever. Every time I pointed one out ,it would get corrected, and another would be made elsewhere, so I just  gave up  trying.Brent, your book says TT9111 rather than TT911.  I found the TT9111 is still available online. On 18-03-06 02:34 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes, I bought mine in 99.Model TT911. Any 3 GPM  pressure washer pump with ceramic plungers will work ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Perhaps the pressure pump, 911 or something.  I searched it, it seemed to be the an old model.   All I found were other models. Matt  | 34857|34855|2018-03-07 18:47:07|brentswain38|Re: Contact for the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry, I lost the email address of the current owner, but the guy who sold her to him can be reached at ;Edward.Krahenbuhl@...He will know where  to find him.Or you could ask the Alawai Boat Harbor in Honolulu where to find the owner of Makena ,or leave a message for him to contact you.Makena is a single keel 36, stretched slightly ,with a wheelhouse. Very well built and finished, and well kept.Do you have info on the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?Thx!"The cure for anything is salt water; sweat, tears, or the sea." - Karen Blixen| 34858|34855|2018-03-07 21:04:27|Matt Malone|Re: Contact for the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?| Hi Brent, Can you say where you saw the ad?  I was curious before, but now with the boat's name, I have tried: Hawaii Steel Sailboat Ala Wai Alawai Makena Honolulu In several combinations in Google and specifically in boat listings and I have come up with nothing.   He may be selling it privately, but there are no blog, nothing to give any clue about the boat, let alone an internet listing I can find.   Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 6:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Contact for the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?     ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sorry, I lost the email address of the current owner, but the guy who sold her to him can be reached at ; Edward.Krahenbuhl@... He will know where  to find him.Or you could ask the Alawai Boat Harbor in Honolulu where to find the owner of Makena ,or leave a message for him to contact you. Makena is a single keel 36, stretched slightly ,with a wheelhouse. Very well built and finished, and well kept. Do you have info on the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu? Thx! "The cure for anything is salt water; sweat, tears, or the sea." - Karen Blixen | 34859|34855|2018-03-07 21:21:42|opuspaul|Re: Contact for the 36 in Ala Wai, Honolulu?|It is on yachtworld.http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/Custom-Swain-Steel-Cutter-3139715/Honolulu/HI/United-States#.WqCdx3xrypo| 34860|34605|2018-03-08 11:05:15|Darren Bos|Re: Watermaker| Brent, I think it is the other way around, I can find the TT9111 listed in your book, however the TT911 you mentioned here doesn't seem to exist.  The book is great.  I've collected quite a few metal boat building books and yours is one of my favorites for clear, concise and practical ideas. Do you find that you run your engine just to run the watermaker, or does it mostly get used when otherwise motoring?  The reason I ask is that I was considering a 5.5 GPM pump like T1321 or EZ2555S and two membranes to shorten engine run times or fit watermaker usage into the shorter hops in and out of harbors.  A single membrane could produce a maximum of 22-30gph under ideal conditions, and less as it ages or outside the ideal water temperature/salinity.  It would also help put a bit more load on the engine when, in those hopefully rare cases, it is just charging batteries and making water. On 18-03-07 02:32 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Typo. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll change it.If I waited to get all the typos out, the book would have taken forever. Every time I pointed one out ,it would get corrected, and another would be made elsewhere, so I just  gave up  trying. Brent, your book says TT9111 rather than TT911.  I found the TT9111 is still available online. | 34861|34605|2018-03-09 12:05:31|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details|Does anyone have a recommendation on where to get flex-pipe for a dry exhaust system.  The local autoparts stores only seem to have inferior grades of stainless.  It seems like it should be at least 304 stainless?| 34863|34605|2018-03-10 00:20:35|Darren Bos|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34864|34605|2018-03-10 17:55:40|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working.I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist.Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:  i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304?http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34865|34605|2018-03-10 18:56:04|opuspaul|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working.I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist.Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:  i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304?http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34866|34605|2018-03-10 19:46:19|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34867|34605|2018-03-11 18:56:39|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-752057326 #ygrps-yiv-752057326ygrps-yiv-1293643639 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}The further from the engine it gets, the cooler ,by a wide margin.My last exhaust had no flex, but ran thru enough corners to make the inside end  flexible enough for a   solid mounted engine . It lasted for 20 years of mostly full time cruising.The book Marine Conversions mentions this option.I have been thinking about a mechanical way to allow enough flex, with a 2 inch pipe over  a 1 1/2 inch, with  a ground smooth weld bead to close the gap. An exhaust fan in the engine compartment will evacuate any tiny amount of leakage. I asked my father a lifetime steam engineer, how much difference in temperature one would get by going from a 1 1/2 inch pipe to  a 2 inch.He said "A huge difference!"There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey  Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:  i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304?http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34868|34605|2018-03-11 19:24:46|Matt Malone|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| A longer pipe to make it cooler just means more engine heat in the cabin.   If one is always in 5C water from the Alaska current ok, but, anywhere the water gets over 15C and the air gets even hotter, not so good.   Two long runs of pipe and 3 elbows can get you flexibility but there are vibration loads on the exhaust manifold casting.  It is better to have a lighter sprung weight (bellows), or an actively cooled exhaust and rubber. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 18:56 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The further from the engine it gets, the cooler ,by a wide margin. My last exhaust had no flex, but ran thru enough corners to make the inside end  flexible enough for a   solid mounted engine . It lasted for 20 years of mostly full time cruising. The book Marine Conversions mentions this option. I have been thinking about a mechanical way to allow enough flex, with a 2 inch pipe over  a 1 1/2 inch, with  a ground smooth weld bead to close the gap. An exhaust fan in the engine compartment will evacuate any tiny amount of leakage. I asked my father a lifetime steam engineer, how much difference in temperature one would get by going from a 1 1/2 inch pipe to  a 2 inch. He said "A huge difference!" There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34869|34605|2018-03-12 11:34:00|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34870|34605|2018-03-12 14:32:05|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| If you wrap thick aluminium foil outside the insulation, and seal it well with high temperature silicon, it will limit exhaust gas leakage from the auto flex pipe (something it always seems to do despite tight connections) improving air quality in the cabin.  But if is cool enough that silicon will not degrade rapidly, then why not silicon exhaust hose?  I can find hoses good to 570F with a google search for "high temperature silicon exhaust hose"  2205 stainless is not good for higher temperatures than 530F, though 304 and 316 are.  Marine blue wet exhaust hose is typically only good to 350F. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 11:34 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34871|34605|2018-03-12 15:50:02|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Matt, I think the problem with silicone is that the temps could get over the upper limit in some conditions leading to failure accompanied by copious and noxious gases.  Also, my understanding is that silicone ages and becomes less flexible with higher temperatures.  Usually the temperature rating is the max transient temperature allowable, but even below that temperature the aging of the silicone is accelerated.  So, using the silicone you are back to the point where you could expect your flex joint to fail with age.  Most of the examples I could find of high temperature silicone hose were the kind meant to extract exhaust fumes, like when you are idling a car in a garage/dyno test.  These were pretty thin wall hoses with fabric reinforcement and I think they are even used under vacuum rather than pressure.  Have I overlooked something? Are the auto flex pipes your talking about leaking the lined or unlined kind?  In the lined ones, the weld from the seamless corrugated bellows to the end caps is obscured by the woven liner and I had wondered if they were perfectly tight.  In the unlined bellows, you can see a continuous weld to the end caps, so I'm not sure how these would leak until they fail. On 18-03-12 11:32 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   If you wrap thick aluminium foil outside the insulation, and seal it well with high temperature silicon, it will limit exhaust gas leakage from the auto flex pipe (something it always seems to do despite tight connections) improving air quality in the cabin.  But if is cool enough that silicon will not degrade rapidly, then why not silicon exhaust hose?  I can find hoses good to 570F with a google search for "high temperature silicon exhaust hose"  2205 stainless is not good for higher temperatures than 530F, though 304 and 316 are.  Marine blue wet exhaust hose is typically only good to 350F. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 11:34 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34872|34605|2018-03-12 16:49:42|Aaron|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|MattWhat is the average discharge temperature of a 4 cylinder diesel? I have a Mitsubishi 37hp from Klassen marine Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:32 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   If you wrap thick aluminium foil outside the insulation, and seal it well with high temperature silicon, it will limit exhaust gas leakage from the auto flex pipe (something it always seems to do despite tight connections) improving air quality in the cabin.  But if is cool enough that silicon will not degrade rapidly, then why not silicon exhaust hose?  I can find hoses good to 570F with a google search for "high temperature silicon exhaust hose"  2205 stainless is not good for higher temperatures than 530F, though 304 and 316 are.  Marine blue wet exhaust hose is typically only good to 350F. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 11:34 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... 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#ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-2019329385 #ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890 #ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2019329385 #ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890 #ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2019329385 #ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890 #ygrps-yiv-2019329385yiv5299853890ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2019329385 | 34873|34605|2018-03-12 19:12:18|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| After a water cooled exhaust manifold, no idea, it could still be quite high, if the manifold is not very efficient.   EGT gauge on normal diesels with non-cooled exhaust manifolds is way higher, 1000F - 1200F. If the water cooled manifold has good energy transfer, the lowest possible is 100C/212F.  With water spray into a wet exhaust, certainly 100C/212F is the highest possible, that is why wet exhaust is a thing. Matt From: Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 16:49 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Matt What is the average discharge temperature of a 4 cylinder diesel?  I have a Mitsubishi 37hp from Klassen marine  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:32 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   If you wrap thick aluminium foil outside the insulation, and seal it well with high temperature silicon, it will limit exhaust gas leakage from the auto flex pipe (something it always seems to do despite tight connections) improving air quality in the cabin.  But if is cool enough that silicon will not degrade rapidly, then why not silicon exhaust hose?  I can find hoses good to 570F with a google search for "high temperature silicon exhaust hose"  2205 stainless is not good for higher temperatures than 530F, though 304 and 316 are.  Marine blue wet exhaust hose is typically only good to 350F. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 11:34 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34874|34605|2018-03-12 19:26:14|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Yes you are right, silicone depends on an efficient water cooled exhaust manifold. I think we are talking about 2 different things with flexible auto exhaust pipes.  The ones I see are spiral interlocking metal, like armored electrical cable, but tighter in the spiral sliding prizmatic interface.  They are always sooty on the outside from leaks.  Most of the exhaust goes out the proper way, but never all of it.   If the one you are thinking about has a bellows inside or a gas-tight weave, I would be interested in seeing a link.  I do not know of any gas tight weaves that do not rely on a polymer, even silicone based, to seal it. The only continuous bellows I have ever used have been naked stainless, no weave outside or inside, for use in vibration isolation in vacuum systems. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 17:00 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Matt, I think the problem with silicone is that the temps could get over the upper limit in some conditions leading to failure accompanied by copious and noxious gases.  Also, my understanding is that silicone ages and becomes less flexible with higher temperatures.  Usually the temperature rating is the max transient temperature allowable, but even below that temperature the aging of the silicone is accelerated.  So, using the silicone you are back to the point where you could expect your flex joint to fail with age.  Most of the examples I could find of high temperature silicone hose were the kind meant to extract exhaust fumes, like when you are idling a car in a garage/dyno test.  These were pretty thin wall hoses with fabric reinforcement and I think they are even used under vacuum rather than pressure.  Have I overlooked something? Are the auto flex pipes your talking about leaking the lined or unlined kind?  In the lined ones, the weld from the seamless corrugated bellows to the end caps is obscured by the woven liner and I had wondered if they were perfectly tight.  In the unlined bellows, you can see a continuous weld to the end caps, so I'm not sure how these would leak until they fail. On 18-03-12 11:32 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   If you wrap thick aluminium foil outside the insulation, and seal it well with high temperature silicon, it will limit exhaust gas leakage from the auto flex pipe (something it always seems to do despite tight connections) improving air quality in the cabin.  But if is cool enough that silicon will not degrade rapidly, then why not silicon exhaust hose?  I can find hoses good to 570F with a google search for "high temperature silicon exhaust hose"  2205 stainless is not good for higher temperatures than 530F, though 304 and 316 are.  Marine blue wet exhaust hose is typically only good to 350F. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 11:34 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34875|34605|2018-03-12 21:02:45|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| https://www.flexiducting.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/P1020600-600x600.jpg That is what the spiral sliding prizmatic ones look like. I did see some bellows ones in looking for the photo.  There are no photos I saw that make it clear what layers are there, or what they are made of. Matt From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 19:26 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Yes you are right, silicone depends on an efficient water cooled exhaust manifold. I think we are talking about 2 different things with flexible auto exhaust pipes.  The ones I see are spiral interlocking metal, like armored electrical cable, but tighter in the spiral sliding prizmatic interface.  They are always sooty on the outside from leaks.  Most of the exhaust goes out the proper way, but never all of it.   If the one you are thinking about has a bellows inside or a gas-tight weave, I would be interested in seeing a link.  I do not know of any gas tight weaves that do not rely on a polymer, even silicone based, to seal it. The only continuous bellows I have ever used have been naked stainless, no weave outside or inside, for use in vibration isolation in vacuum systems. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 17:00 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Matt, I think the problem with silicone is that the temps could get over the upper limit in some conditions leading to failure accompanied by copious and noxious gases.  Also, my understanding is that silicone ages and becomes less flexible with higher temperatures.  Usually the temperature rating is the max transient temperature allowable, but even below that temperature the aging of the silicone is accelerated.  So, using the silicone you are back to the point where you could expect your flex joint to fail with age.  Most of the examples I could find of high temperature silicone hose were the kind meant to extract exhaust fumes, like when you are idling a car in a garage/dyno test.  These were pretty thin wall hoses with fabric reinforcement and I think they are even used under vacuum rather than pressure.  Have I overlooked something? Are the auto flex pipes your talking about leaking the lined or unlined kind?  In the lined ones, the weld from the seamless corrugated bellows to the end caps is obscured by the woven liner and I had wondered if they were perfectly tight.  In the unlined bellows, you can see a continuous weld to the end caps, so I'm not sure how these would leak until they fail. On 18-03-12 11:32 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   If you wrap thick aluminium foil outside the insulation, and seal it well with high temperature silicon, it will limit exhaust gas leakage from the auto flex pipe (something it always seems to do despite tight connections) improving air quality in the cabin.  But if is cool enough that silicon will not degrade rapidly, then why not silicon exhaust hose?  I can find hoses good to 570F with a google search for "high temperature silicon exhaust hose"  2205 stainless is not good for higher temperatures than 530F, though 304 and 316 are.  Marine blue wet exhaust hose is typically only good to 350F. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, March 12, 11:34 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I wasn't aware of the ferritic (magnetic) grades of stainless that had corrossion resistance equal to or better than 316.  The reason that I mentioned 304 is that bellows just don't seem to come in 316.  Maybe it is a material properties thing and that 304 does a better job than 316 when you need really thin material that is required to repeatedly flex?  Maybe it is just a manufacturing economics thing?  Anyway, the common situation in bellows seems to be that you can find the actual bellows in 304, but the woven liners (outer and or inner) (if present), end caps (that hold the liners), and tube extensions are often not stainless or are or an inferior grade of stainless.  Unlike the better grades of magnetic stainless you linked to, in this case if you find magnetic ends on a flex-pipe or bellows they are most likely to be aluminized steel or 409 stainless.  I think this is a case where the MBAs have figured out how to make millions by saving pennies per part..... I don't want to get into the complexities of cooling exhaust beyond what already happens in my water-cooled-manifold.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  The flex pipe is going to be thoroughly wrapped and insulated, so it really shouldn't see much salt air from the outside and if I get saltwater that far into the exhaust, I've got bigger problems.  The longest 2" diameter flex pipe commonly available in the auto world is 10" overall, which is 8" of actual flex plus two 1" end caps.  I would have liked longer because using longer flex pipe reduces stress and increases life, but this size is available almost everywhere. Thanks for the help everyone, Darren On 18-03-10 04:46 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   There are grades with generally better corrosion resistance than 304, for instance 316, and 2205.   http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ One might consider an exhaust gas cooler made out of a good grade, then consider a high temperature silicon rubber hose to make the flexible connection.   If one is using keel or skeg cooling and 100% water (not glycol) then one might consider using the outflow from the engine block counterflow in the exhaust gas cooler to make the exhaust cool enough for a non-metal flexible joint.   A swirl vane in the exhaust flow would help too.     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 6:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Maybe it is OK for a dry exhaust but just about everything 304 that is exposed to salt water or spray on my boat has ended up being replaced.  I would only use it for low stress non-critical fasteners.  It corrodes and cracks. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My cheapie began leaking ,so I wrapped it in fibreglass cloth and siliconed it heavily. That seems to be working. I have seen good ones in pulp mill scrap, so I do believe they exist. Unfortunately not.  It seems that many manufacturers have the corrugated bellows themselves in 304, but the rest is stuff like 409 or aluminized steel.  On the walker ones the end caps are highly magnetic, as are the inner and outer woven liners. On 18-03-09 06:59 PM, jaybeecherbay@... [origamiboats] wrote:   i thought the walker exhaust stainless was 304? http://www.walkerexhaust.com/assets/downloads/english/Walker_Hardware_Accessories.pdf | 34876|34605|2018-03-13 12:10:55|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Matt, Yes, we were talking across products.  This is the kind of bellows/flex pipe/flex coupling I was talking about.  All four examples in the link have solid, corrugated, air-tight stainless steel bellows like the kind you have used in vacuum systems.   The four examples show the various inner or outer liners that can also be added to improve durability of the bellows or the flow of exhaust gases.  The version on the far left of the page has the spiral interlocking material you had been thinking about added inside the bellows to help keep the exhaust flow less turbulent.  It is fairly easy to find flex couplings where the bellows themselves are304 stainless, but the inner/outer braid, or the end caps are often aluminized steel, 204 or 409 stainless, or even just plain carbon steel. Darren On 18-03-12 04:26 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes you are right, silicone depends on an efficient water cooled exhaust manifold. I think we are talking about 2 different things with flexible auto exhaust pipes.  The ones I see are spiral interlocking metal, like armored electrical cable, but tighter in the spiral sliding prizmatic interface.  They are always sooty on the outside from leaks.  Most of the exhaust goes out the proper way, but never all of it.   If the one you are thinking about has a bellows inside or a gas-tight weave, I would be interested in seeing a link.  I do not know of any gas tight weaves that do not rely on a polymer, even silicone based, to seal it. The only continuous bellows I have ever used have been naked stainless, no weave outside or inside, for use in vibration isolation in vacuum systems. Matt | 34877|34605|2018-03-13 12:13:23|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| It is too bad this version of flexpipe isn't air tight at exhaust temperatures, it would be as easy as running wet exhaust hose. On 18-03-12 06:02 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   https://www.flexiducting.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/P1020600-600x600.jpg That is what the spiral sliding prizmatic ones look like. I did see some bellows ones in looking for the photo.  There are no photos I saw that make it clear what layers are there, or what they are made of. Matt | 34878|34605|2018-03-13 12:40:00|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| https://www.larsonelectronicglass.com/type-stainless-steel-bellows-p-1221-l-en.html Type 321 Stainless Steel Bellows - Larson Electronic Glass www.larsonelectronicglass.com Larson Electronic Glass offers a large number of fractional size SS bellows in addition to our glass to metal sealed adaptors. Features: 23 standard fractional sizes ... You might look at these intended for vacuum use.   I was able to get a vacuum bellows a foot long and 1" inside, not from this company.   321 is apparently good for reasonably high temperatures, above 800F and in some references up to 1650F, and is regularly used in exhaust systems.   321 is no better than 304 relative to chloride corrosion but, note this particular company offers: *316L bellows by special order*. I do not think you will find better than 316L in a bellows for your exhaust.   I would favour at least twice the diameter for the length of the bellows section, to reduce strains and increase the life of the bellows.   It will make a big difference.   Also, going oversized in diameter will greatly improve flow properties, more than a liner.    I would buy two, so as to have a spare.   If one has to install the spare in less than 3 years, at least you know how long you probably have before having to find another solution. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Matt, Yes, we were talking across products.  This is the kind of bellows/flex pipe/flex coupling I was talking about.  All four examples in the link have solid, corrugated, air-tight stainless steel bellows like the kind you have used in vacuum systems.   The four examples show the various inner or outer liners that can also be added to improve durability of the bellows or the flow of exhaust gases.  The version on the far left of the page has the spiral interlocking material you had been thinking about added inside the bellows to help keep the exhaust flow less turbulent.  It is fairly easy to find flex couplings where the bellows themselves are304 stainless, but the inner/outer braid, or the end caps are often aluminized steel, 204 or 409 stainless, or even just plain carbon steel. Darren On 18-03-12 04:26 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Yes you are right, silicone depends on an efficient water cooled exhaust manifold. I think we are talking about 2 different things with flexible auto exhaust pipes.  The ones I see are spiral interlocking metal, like armored electrical cable, but tighter in the spiral sliding prizmatic interface.  They are always sooty on the outside from leaks.  Most of the exhaust goes out the proper way, but never all of it.   If the one you are thinking about has a bellows inside or a gas-tight weave, I would be interested in seeing a link.  I do not know of any gas tight weaves that do not rely on a polymer, even silicone based, to seal it. The only continuous bellows I have ever used have been naked stainless, no weave outside or inside, for use in vibration isolation in vacuum systems. Matt | 34879|34605|2018-03-13 17:57:46|brentswain38|Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :With a layer of common house fibreglass insulation over a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe, wrapped with 3 inch muffler tape, coated with silicone, my exhaust pipe was cool to the touch after days of  motoring in the tropics.You cant get  much cooler than that. In Tonga I met a couple with a water cooled exhaust which  had corroded out two engine since the 90s, from condensation on their valves. A diesel mechanic in Port Townsend was quoted as saying."If everyone went for dry exhaust and keel  cooling, us mechanics would all be out of work."A couple of clients fought with wet exhaust for several  years, before going dry exhaust, and cruising happily ever after. Wet exhaust is a big mistake. I bolted my exhaust  to my bell housing, before the flex part, so there would be no load on the manifold, only on one bell housing bolt. No problem, in 20 years. A longer pipe to make it cooler just means more engine heat in the cabin.   If one is always in 5C water from the Alaska current ok, but, anywhere the water gets over 15C and the air gets even hotter, not so good.   Two long runs of pipe and 3 elbows can get you flexibility but there are vibration loads on the exhaust manifold casting.  It is better to have a lighter sprung weight (bellows), or an actively cooled exhaust and rubber. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 18:56 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The further from the engine it gets, the cooler ,by a wide margin. My last exhaust had no flex, but ran thru enough corners to make the inside end  flexible enough for a   solid mounted engine . It lasted for 20 years of mostly full time cruising. The book Marine Conversions mentions this option. I have been thinking about a mechanical way to allow enough flex, with a 2 inch pipe over  a 1 1/2 inch, with  a ground smooth weld bead to close the gap. An exhaust fan in the engine compartment will evacuate any tiny amount of leakage. I asked my father a lifetime steam engineer, how much difference in temperature one would get by going from a 1 1/2 inch pipe to  a 2 inch. He said "A huge difference!" | 34880|34605|2018-03-13 18:01:57|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.   woven liners. | 34881|34605|2018-03-13 18:11:39|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :.  In this case, I think the answer is going to be to choose a size of flex pipe that is commonly available for auto use and weld pipe unions on either side of it.  That way, replacing it is quick and painless.  Use lots of never seize and teflon on your pipe unions. I find they set up, pretty hard to undo ,over time. | 34882|34605|2018-03-14 10:02:24|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|A friend who made stainless steel exhaust pipes for Vincent motorcycles said that they would eventually turn a straw colour bcause repeated heating and cooling caused migration of iron to the crystal boundaries of the metal where it was more prone to corrosio - hence the straw colour.Eventually they would fall apart but I don't think this would happen in the short termyours etcAndrew Airey| 34883|34605|2018-03-14 12:55:40|rockrothwell|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Winston built an all pipe exhaust on the Dove. Ä¢gotta check the size but exited the yanmar 20hp going up 180 and a long drop another 180 up to about 2/3 of available room and then about a 90 to getcha back to the loop just fwd of the transom. Loose and floppy with the engine out. Gotta toe it off. No fancy flex fittings but wrapped in wot looks like fiberglass. ....with polyester resin which seems odd to me but it worked well. Also had a jacket of 1 1/2 inch insulation atop that all laced up tight with monel Lovely work Lasted 30 years thus far & looks fine| 34884|34605|2018-03-15 12:35:34|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| The fact the exhaust hung limp when the engine was removed tells me that the exhaust was placing forces on the engine.  If there was any heaving and slamming in waves, though the exhaust may not appear to be moving, it is putting impact loads on the engine.   I really like Brent's idea of bolting the exhaust by a bracket elsewhere on the engine to reduce the loads on the exhaust manifold.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Winston built an all pipe exhaust on the Dove. Ä¢gotta check the size but exited the yanmar 20hp going up 180 and a long drop another 180 up to about 2/3 of available room and then about a 90 to getcha back to the loop just fwd of the transom. Loose and floppy with the engine out. Gotta toe it off. No fancy flex fittings but wrapped in wot looks like fiberglass. ....with polyester resin which seems odd to me but it worked well. Also had a jacket of 1 1/2 inch insulation atop that all laced up tight with monel Lovely work Lasted 30 years thus far & looks fine | 34885|34605|2018-03-15 16:34:45|opuspaul|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Make sure you use relatively stiff engine mounts.  Using soft mounts like they use on Yanmar engines will shake it to bits at low rpms and be deadly to a flexible exhaust bellows.   I have learned to hate these mounts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3CwAEIYsvY---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-565836322 #ygrps-yiv-565836322ygrps-yiv-198501860 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}The fact the exhaust hung limp when the engine was removed tells me that the exhaust was placing forces on the engine.  If there was any heaving and slamming in waves, though the exhaust may not appear to be moving, it is putting impact loads on the engine.   I really like Brent's idea of bolting the exhaust by a bracket elsewhere on the engine to reduce the loads on the exhaust manifold.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey  Winston built an all pipe exhaust on the Dove. Ä¢gotta check the size but exited the yanmar 20hp going up 180 and a long drop another 180 up to about 2/3 of available room and then about a 90 to getcha back to the loop just fwd of the transom. Loose and floppy with the engine out. Gotta toe it off. No fancy flex fittings but wrapped in wot looks like fiberglass. ....with polyester resin which seems odd to me but it worked well. Also had a jacket of 1 1/2 inch insulation atop that all laced up tight with monel Lovely work Lasted 30 years thus far & looks fine| 34886|34605|2018-03-15 17:01:49|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Absolutely, engine vibrations too can cause loading.  As much as I would like nothing to fail, I think I would sooner loose a bellows/flex exhaust rather than an exhaust manifold because worst case I can wrap it in tinfoil and insulation, and run the engine long enough to charge batteries, run running lights, and make radio calls. So yes, consider Brent's method of bolting off the exhaust by a bracket to a strong point on the engine, use harder motor mounts where allowed, as suggested, but better to have the weakest point be the cheapest point and have a backup (same idea as a shear bolt) then to make everything perfect and need a backup to everything. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 16:44 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Make sure you use relatively stiff engine mounts.  Using soft mounts like they use on Yanmar engines will shake it to bits at low rpms and be deadly to a flexible exhaust bellows.   I have learned to hate these mounts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3CwAEIYsvY ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The fact the exhaust hung limp when the engine was removed tells me that the exhaust was placing forces on the engine.  If there was any heaving and slamming in waves, though the exhaust may not appear to be moving, it is putting impact loads on the engine.   I really like Brent's idea of bolting the exhaust by a bracket elsewhere on the engine to reduce the loads on the exhaust manifold.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Winston built an all pipe exhaust on the Dove. Ä¢gotta check the size but exited the yanmar 20hp going up 180 and a long drop another 180 up to about 2/3 of available room and then about a 90 to getcha back to the loop just fwd of the transom. Loose and floppy with the engine out. Gotta toe it off. No fancy flex fittings but wrapped in wot looks like fiberglass. ....with polyester resin which seems odd to me but it worked well. Also had a jacket of 1 1/2 inch insulation atop that all laced up tight with monel Lovely work Lasted 30 years thus far & looks fine | 34887|34605|2018-03-15 17:05:49|opuspaul|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Note that in the second video, the mounts are replaced and remounted but because they are so soft, the engine movement is still far too much.  Not only is it hard on exhausts, it is hard on couplings, hard on seals and hard on shafts.   I was on a catamaran delivery where we had to replace all of the above for the owner and it cost thousands.  I know they are popular but if I had a boat with the soft Yanmar mounts, I would seriously think of getting rid of them.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Make sure you use relatively stiff engine mounts.  Using soft mounts like they use on Yanmar engines will shake it to bits at low rpms and be deadly to a flexible exhaust bellows.   I have learned to hate these mounts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3CwAEIYsvY| 34888|34605|2018-03-15 18:11:31|Matt Malone|Prioritizing gear| There was an unfortunate case in the news lately where a Canadian couple with Great Lakes experience went out into the North Atlantic in July 2017: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/wife-swept-away-sailing-accident-off-newfoundland-1.4569319 It turns out she did not get swept away, he was tethered for some time, but the husband could not get her back in the boat and she slipped out of her harness.   Very sad story.   But, the article highlighted that the boat had no satellite radio, no life raft, no radar, 2 paragraphs before mentioning there were no survival suits.   Now I know there is a list of safety equipment, and being missing equipment when inspected is going to be a problem whatever it is.   What I am pointing out here is order of priority.   In the first minutes of any real problem, one's harness, PFD and survival suit get one past the first few minutes.   Brent, as someone who sails year-round, in BC coastal waters, which I can attest are never warm, certainly in any sort of weather, you would have a survival suit, right?   Following that:  - A way to get back in the boat, no matter what -- personal experience being out of a boat was enough, this story a sharp reminder. - The presence of a life raft that affords shelter, even if not used immediately.   - First aid. - A means of communication suitable to where one is.   - water, food - navigation, position location, and communication that works in the raft. After that, one is looking at options for prolonging the boat for the reason that it is a superior shelter with more options than a raft.   Beyond that we are talking about longer timelines, from emergency repair to more extensive, serviceable repairs.   Beyond that are efficiencies and conveniences that would have a factor in crew fatigue and morale, which plays a factor in survival. Beyond that are luxuries that no doubt are really useful sometimes, but, not direct survival gear. A lack of radar it seems is not worth mentioning in the same article as survival suits.  Particularly not in this article, where they were out in the Atlantic far from shore, and the subject wave may not have shown on radar, it likely developed so quickly and so close to the boat.    Sure radar with range warnings would help keep them out of collision with a ship, but, there were two of them, so, it is theoretically possible to stand watches 24/7, perhaps with the aid of a kitchen timer to make sure the person on watch never went below for too long.   And then there is satellite radio -- wow how much for that?   I do not think that had a factor in this case either.   So as far as electronics....  OK, VHF s a given, as is DSC these days.   What of short wave, an AIS receiver, or AIS transceiver, Weather Fax, GPS-integrated chart plotting, all the other things?  All of these things are just money, and there are some cool combo units and apps for computers and tablets.  Which would you leave off the list?   Not wish list, practical list, which would be close to the minimum list. Matt | 34889|34605|2018-03-15 19:04:08|opuspaul|Re: Prioritizing gear|I have never heard of anyone wearing a survival suit on a sailboat.   I only know of a few that own them.   You would only put one on if you knew you were going in the water or abandoning ship.  Seriously, who would want to wear one of these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3pHNCCFVJwThat story is a tragedy but I am not sure if they did anything wrong.  I not a fan of automatic PFDs since they tend to go off when not wanted.  Normally I prefer no PFD if I am wearing a harness since I prefer to keep the harness on all the time.  Not wearing a PFD type harness allows me to be more mobile and wear it under jackets or coats with the tether hanging out.  I can wear a light harness while sleeping and I can clip on at a moments notice.   Maybe a better lifesling arrangement close at hand would have helped him get his wife back on board sooner.   I have said it before but if people want to go across the Atlantic or Pacific and kill themselves in an ill prepared boat, let them.   I don't care if they go in a bathtub as long as they don't hurt anyone else.   If the authorities didn't rescue or search for them it soon wouldn't be a problem.   I love having GPS, AIS, radar and the ability to get weather reports but when arm chair experts (or stupid reporters)  start deciding what is safe and what is required we are all in big trouble.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-437276048 #ygrps-yiv-437276048ygrps-yiv-569986577 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}There was an unfortunate case in the news lately where a Canadian couple with Great Lakes experience went out into the North Atlantic in July 2017:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/wife-swept-away-sailing-accident-off-newfoundland-1.4569319| 34890|34605|2018-03-15 19:07:14|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have heard of several cases  of Yanmar mounts all breaking and leaving he engine rolling around in the boat. One guy in a Spencer 35, had his engine punch a hole in the hull,  and had to be helicopter rescued off the Great Barrier Reef. The boat sank, and last I heard he was missing at sea en route from Hawaii top BC  in another Spencer 35. Wonder if it too had the same mounts, and the same problemMake sure you use relatively stiff engine mounts.  Using soft mounts like they use on Yanmar engines will shake it to bits at low rpms and be deadly to a flexible exhaust bellows.   I have learned to hate these mounts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3CwAEIYsvY Matt | 34891|34605|2018-03-15 19:13:11|opuspaul|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|My exhaust riser from the engine is made from common 1 1/2 inch galv pipe fittings.  It is easy to replace and dirt cheap to carry spares in case anything cracks or breaks.  It comes out of the manifold, goes up, goes across and then down and like Brent recommends, is supported by a bracket to the bell housing.      Paul So yes, consider Brent's method of bolting off the exhaust by a bracket to a strong point on the engine, use harder motor mounts where allowed, as suggested, but better to have the weakest point be the cheapest point and have a backup (same idea as a shear bolt) then to make everything perfect and need a backup to everything. Matt | 34892|34605|2018-03-15 19:31:46|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have never owned a liferaft, satelite phone,or survival suit.I have always had a good wetsuit aboard and had ham radio only on my last trip home form Tonga.Bought my first VHF after 17 years of cruising and several Pacific  crossings.In BC in bad weather I spend 95% of my time in my wheelhouse, with zero chance of going overboard. On deck I have solid lifelines 3 ft high,and decks wide enough  that I don't have to climb on the cabin top going forward.  At sea I rig an extra lifeline on the shrouds ,chest high. I tow a floating man overboard line rigged to my tiller, which would pull the helm hard over should I grab it from the water.Extra man overboard gear is foolish  when combined with  knee high plastic coated lifelines ( trip wires)  on super thin walled tubing stanchions,and decks so narrow that you have to  climb on the cabin  top going foreward. Life slings are of no use to a singlehander overboard.Then there  is the 'Yottie" solution; Bright yellow high visibility sea  boots, so rescuers can see your feet when you are chest  deep  in sea water (The kind of thinking armchair expert bureaucrats would impose on us ,(if we let them)I have never heard of anyone wearing a survival suit on a sailboat.   I only know of a few that own them.   You would only put one on if you knew you were going in the water or abandoning ship.  Seriously, who would want to wear one of these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3pHNCCFVJwThat story is a tragedy but I am not sure if they did anything wrong.  I not a fan of automatic PFDs since they tend to go off when not wanted.  Normally I prefer no PFD if I am wearing a harness since I prefer to keep the harness on all the time.  Not wearing a PFD type harness allows me to be more mobile and wear it under jackets or coats with the tether hanging out.  I can wear a light harness while sleeping and I can clip on at a moments notice.   Maybe a better lifesling arrangement close at hand would have helped him get his wife back on board sooner.   I have said it before but if people want to go across the Atlantic or Pacific and kill themselves in an ill prepared boat, let them.   I don't care if they go in a bathtub as long as they don't hurt anyone else.   If the authorities didn't rescue or search for them it soon wouldn't be a problem.   I love having GPS, AIS, radar and the ability to get weather reports but when arm chair experts (or stupid reporters)  start deciding what is safe and what is required we are all in big trouble.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2015464309 #ygrps-yiv-2015464309ygrps-yiv-1260070710 #ygrps-yiv-2015464309ygrps-yiv-1260070710ygrps-yiv-569986577 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}There was an unfortunate case in the news lately where a Canadian couple with Great Lakes experience went out into the North Atlantic in July 2017:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/wife-swept-away-sailing-accident-off-newfoundland-1.4569319| 34893|34605|2018-03-15 20:02:26|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|A couple sailing from Comox to Bowel River had the guy fall overboard. Despite her being able to  get a line on him ,he died , as she was unable to  get him back aboard, up the boat's excessive freeboard. Now they  have made a means of getting  back aboard, mandatory, required by law.I always like to  weld SS climbing rungs on the transom, and on the sides of the skeg. Nice on a twin keeler when you  come back late at night , at low tide, and forgot to lower the ladder.Amazing seeing people build twin keelers, and not bother with  a proper  boarding ladder .| 34894|34605|2018-03-15 20:05:09|Matt Malone|Re: Prioritizing gear| Well, I own a survival suit, and I have worn it.   It is a no gloves, no feet lower-rated, higher water temperature, shorter protection one that is still 10 times better than no suit.   There are other grades.  The ones they were showing are intermediate grade and probably what is recommended for open ocean.  There is yet another type that fits very snuggly about the face like a diving dry suit that is for ice conditions.    I may change my mind and buy another, but, if I cannot get back in the boat in 15-30 minutes, I am not getting help for a good part of a day, and no suit is going to save me if the water is really cold.   Mine is a Mustang, and as comfortable to wear as a snowmobile suit, and contains flotation.  It is not an unconcious-person lifesaving level of flotation, that really only a key-hole PFD gives, but I would put such a PFD on if I really thought I might go in.   Once you have one like mine on, it is really comfortable and waterproof vs. spray.   I see no reason not to wear it when the water is 5 C.  Yes, the ones in those videos, with the gumby gloves and built-in boots will keep you going twice as long at least, but, then you are wearing gumby gloves all the time while trying to use my hands and I am not ready for that just yet.  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 7:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prioritizing gear     I have never heard of anyone wearing a survival suit on a sailboat.   I only know of a few that own them.   You would only put one on if you knew you were going in the water or abandoning ship.  Seriously, who would want to wear one of these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3pHNCCFVJw That story is a tragedy but I am not sure if they did anything wrong.  I not a fan of automatic PFDs since they tend to go off when not wanted.  Normally I prefer no PFD if I am wearing a harness since I prefer to keep the harness on all the time.  Not wearing a PFD type harness allows me to be more mobile and wear it under jackets or coats with the tether hanging out.  I can wear a light harness while sleeping and I can clip on at a moments notice.   Maybe a better lifesling arrangement close at hand would have helped him get his wife back on board sooner.   I have said it before but if people want to go across the Atlantic or Pacific and kill themselves in an ill prepared boat, let them.   I don't care if they go in a bathtub as long as they don't hurt anyone else.   If the authorities didn't rescue or search for them it soon wouldn't be a problem.   I love having GPS, AIS, radar and the ability to get weather reports but when arm chair experts (or stupid reporters)  start deciding what is safe and what is required we are all in big trouble. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There was an unfortunate case in the news lately where a Canadian couple with Great Lakes experience went out into the North Atlantic in July 2017: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/wife-swept-away-sailing-accident-off-newfoundland-1.4569319 | 34895|34605|2018-03-15 20:06:16|Darren Bos|Re: Prioritizing gear| If you are wiling to wear a harness and have jacklines, then ensuring that the harness has leg straps and that the tether and jacklines are short enough that you cannot go overboard is one solution.  This limits mobility, and can make it slower to get things done.  I don't have a problem with folks who don't wear a harness, seems analogous to freeclimbing to me.  I think the problem is when you have long tethers and jacklines too far outboard that give a false sense of security.  There are unfortunately examples where folks drown right next to the boat, even with a full racing crew.  On 18-03-15 04:03 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have never heard of anyone wearing a survival suit on a sailboat.   I only know of a few that own them.   You would only put one on if you knew you were going in the water or abandoning ship.  Seriously, who would want to wear one of these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3pHNCCFVJw That story is a tragedy but I am not sure if they did anything wrong.  I not a fan of automatic PFDs since they tend to go off when not wanted.  Normally I prefer no PFD if I am wearing a harness since I prefer to keep the harness on all the time.  Not wearing a PFD type harness allows me to be more mobile and wear it under jackets or coats with the tether hanging out.  I can wear a light harness while sleeping and I can clip on at a moments notice.   Maybe a better lifesling arrangement close at hand would have helped him get his wife back on board sooner.   I have said it before but if people want to go across the Atlantic or Pacific and kill themselves in an ill prepared boat, let them.   I don't care if they go in a bathtub as long as they don't hurt anyone else.   If the authorities didn't rescue or search for them it soon wouldn't be a problem.   I love having GPS, AIS, radar and the ability to get weather reports but when arm chair experts (or stupid reporters)  start deciding what is safe and what is required we are all in big trouble. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There was an unfortunate case in the news lately where a Canadian couple with Great Lakes experience went out into the North Atlantic in July 2017: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/wife-swept-away-sailing-accident-off-newfoundland-1.4569319 | 34896|34605|2018-03-16 11:58:02|rockrothwell|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|That makes sense. But Winston did a major Pacific cruise in her. High latitude etc. With a 2 banger Yamny to give it a good shake. Then a couple owners with no clue who I'm sure we're gentle. It works. Is proven. Is in good shape. Why complicate it?| 34897|34605|2018-03-16 14:50:58|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Thanks for the reminder of the soft mounts Paul, I'll have to take a close look once the engine is running and how hard the flex pipe is being made to work. Some flexible mounts are designed so they can't fail completely like the Spencer example.  For example, these ones have the mounting pillar-bolt captive such that even if the rubber part fails the engine is still held in place.  It will probably bounce around enough to cause a flexible prop-shaft coupling to fail though.  You could still cause the engine mounting studs to fail if you have the weight unequally spread between the mounts. I lived with the other end of the spectrum, a completely rigidly mounted engine, bolted directly to the engine bearers.  The noise transmitted through the hull was terrible and I would never want to go back to that.  As with all boat things, it's a compromise and you have to think of the whole system together.  Soft mounts can be used with something like and aquadrive/python drive and a flexible wet exhaust assembly to help provide a nice quiet system, but you pay with expense, complexity and more points for failure.  A hard mounted engine is cheap and simple, but brutally noisy.  It seems that with a dry exhaust you have to go with more rigid mounts, I'm hoping my flex mounts are going to stiff enough to be OK for the flex pipe, time will tell and I'm making the flex pipe easy to replace. On 18-03-15 04:07 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I have heard of several cases  of Yanmar mounts all breaking and leaving he engine rolling around in the boat. One guy in a Spencer 35, had his engine punch a hole in the hull,  and had to be helicopter rescued off the Great Barrier Reef. The boat sank, and last I heard he was missing at sea en route from Hawaii top BC  in another Spencer 35. Wonder if it too had the same mounts, and the same problem Make sure you use relatively stiff engine mounts.  Using soft mounts like they use on Yanmar engines will shake it to bits at low rpms and be deadly to a flexible exhaust bellows.   I have learned to hate these mounts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3CwAEIYsvY Matt | 34898|34605|2018-03-16 15:16:24|Matt Malone|Making your comment clear in context| This comes up a lot.  People reply but do not contain any hint to which of the divergent messages in the topic they are responding to.   I appreciate some might be on sailmail or something so including the entire text might not be a good idea, but, saying something about what you are replying to would be a good idea.   In this case I can only guess it was me who said something that Shane(? rockrothwell) was replying to, but even if I assume that, (based on "complicate") I cannot guess which post of mine it was.    I do float a lot of ideas, some sink quickly for good reasons that I overlooked, others are simply not seen as very useful given their cost/effort.   All this feedback and reading all the other ideas on origami boats is useful to me.  Sorry I am really awful with names if people do not type them. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 11:57 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     That makes sense. But Winston did a major Pacific cruise in her. High latitude etc. With a 2 banger Yamny to give it a good shake. Then a couple owners with no clue who I'm sure we're gentle. It works. Is proven. Is in good shape. Why complicate it? | 34899|34605|2018-03-16 15:41:53|opuspaul|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|I use the DF-100 engine mounts made by Bushings Inc with my Isuzu 35hp diesel.   They are relatively cheap and widely available.   I wonder if Winston changed to something else from the standard Yanmar mounts on Dove.   They are extremely expensive and wouldn't be his style.https://www.bushingsinc.com/images/bushing_inc/PDF_DOCS/DF-100.pdf---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks for the reminder of the soft mounts Paul, I'll have to take a close look once the engine is running and how hard the flex pipe is being made to work.Some flexible mounts are designed so they can't fail completely like the Spencer example.  For example, these ones have the mounting pillar-bolt captive such that even if the rubber part fails the engine is still held in place.  It will probably bounce around enough to cause a flexible prop-shaft coupling to fail though.  You could still cause the engine mounting studs to fail if you have the weight unequally spread between the mounts.I lived with the other end of the spectrum, a completely rigidly mounted engine, bolted directly to the engine bearers.  The noise transmitted through the hull was terrible and I would never want to go back to that.  As with all boat things, it's a compromise and you have to think of the whole system together.  Soft mounts can be used with something like and aquadrive/python drive and a flexible wet exhaust assembly to help provide a nice quiet system, but you pay with expense, complexity and more points for failure.  A hard mounted engine is cheap and simple, but brutally noisy.  It seems that with a dry exhaust you have to go with more rigid mounts, I'm hoping my flex mounts are going to stiff enough to be OK for the flex pipe, time will tell and I'm making the flex pipe easy to replace. | 34900|34605|2018-03-16 15:51:53|mountain man|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|I would like to read Brent's opinion about the noise of rigid mounts Martin ________________________________________ De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Envoyé : 16 mars 2018 14:50:54 À : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey Thanks for the reminder of the soft mounts Paul, I'll have to take a close look once the engine is running and how hard the flex pipe is being made to work. Some flexible mounts are designed so they can't fail completely like the Spencer example. For example, these ones have the mounting pillar-bolt captive such that even if the rubber part fails the engine is still held in place. It will probably bounce around enough to cause a flexible prop-shaft coupling to fail though. You could still cause the engine mounting studs to fail if you have the weight unequally spread between the mounts. I lived with the other end of the spectrum, a completely rigidly mounted engine, bolted directly to the engine bearers. The noise transmitted through the hull was terrible and I would never want to go back to that. As with all boat things, it's a compromise and you have to think of the whole system together. Soft mounts can be used with something like and aquadrive/python drive and a flexible wet exhaust assembly to help provide a nice quiet system, but you pay with expense, complexity and more points for failure. A hard mounted engine is cheap and simple, but brutally noisy. It seems that with a dry exhaust you have to go with more rigid mounts, I'm hoping my flex mounts are going to stiff enough to be OK for the flex pipe, time will tell and I'm making the flex pipe easy to replace. On 18-03-15 04:07 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I have heard of several cases of Yanmar mounts all breaking and leaving he engine rolling around in the boat. One guy in a Spencer 35, had his engine punch a hole in the hull, and had to be helicopter rescued off the Great Barrier Reef. The boat sank, and last I heard he was missing at sea en route from Hawaii top BC in another Spencer 35. Wonder if it too had the same mounts, and the same problem Make sure you use relatively stiff engine mounts. Using soft mounts like they use on Yanmar engines will shake it to bits at low rpms and be deadly to a flexible exhaust bellows. I have learned to hate these mounts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdOGWk-GV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3CwAEIYsvY Matt | 34901|34605|2018-03-16 16:28:30|Aethiopicus|Re: Prioritizing gear|No dispute as to all that list, although no matter your connectivity someone in the water dies from exposure if they can't get back on board in short order. As to regard to survival suits I wouldn't bother too much with them at least not the the booty and Gumby hands version which are the actual "survival suits" that prolong life for a longer time but I just don't see when you'd actually wear it unless you know you're about to jump into the water, like the boat's sinking in which case I'm sure they're great. I've got one of those suits that doesn't have the boots or gloves and it's great, it's warm clothing thats nearly waterproof, keeps the wind off you and is a full body lifejacket that I where anytime but the warmest of days and I can still do anything I need while sailing. Highly recommend one of those as necessary gear.| 34902|34605|2018-03-16 16:39:19|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|The less comfortable, the less likely  you are to put it on in  time.| 34903|34605|2018-03-16 16:53:16|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|What drowns people right next to the boat is the common mistake of attaching it to the centre of the chest. A British magazine ran an article on such tests , which  found that with the chest attachment ,the body built up a huge bow wave, which kept the head buried in solid water, even at 4 knots. With the attachment at the centre of the back ,they were comfortable, but could not reach the tether to pull themselves in. With it attached to the top of the shoulder, they could breath, and also pull themselves in. With webbing for the tether, it also lets you sleep in the harness, comfortably,  without it digging into you. I have heard of other incidents of the chest attachment drowning people who's crew could  not get the boat stopped, or get them aboard quickly enough. It would  take only one big, successful law suit against the manufacturer of such screw ups to wake them up, and change the way they are made.Until then, they will keep doing the same, without  ever trying one out, or doing any kind of testing of what they are selling.| 34904|34605|2018-03-16 16:59:49|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Leonardo Da Vinci said;"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Einstein said;" Any fool can complicate things, but it takes true genius to simplify."Despite experienced cruisers constantly advocating simplicity, there seems a common cultural thread in cruising discussions, that "The more complicated and expensive you can make something , the better job you are doing." The opposite is closer to the truth.I have been attacked constantly for offering much simpler solutions, on many sites.| 34905|34605|2018-03-16 17:07:03|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| :Those are great mounts. A friend had th e bolt fail on one, but just had to  thread another thru it.Best carry an extra, right sized bolt or ready rod aboard. No way the engine can break completely free with that kind of mount.I use the DF-100 engine mounts made by Bushings Inc with my Isuzu 35hp diesel.   They are relatively cheap and widely available.   I wonder if Winston changed to something else from the standard Yanmar mounts on Dove.   They are extremely expensive and wouldn't be his style.https://www.bushingsinc.com/images/bushing_inc/PDF_DOCS/DF-100.pdf| 34906|34605|2018-03-16 17:08:08|Aaron|Re: Prioritizing gear|Gumby suits are for abandon ship protection and cold water survival. When you know the boats going down grab the suit if you have time put it on otherwise put it on once in the water. A good suit can keep you alive for several hours or days depending on the circumstances. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Aethiopicus haidan@... [origamiboats] wrote:   No dispute as to all that list, although no matter your connectivity someone in the water dies from exposure if they can't get back on board in short order. As to regard to survival suits I wouldn't bother too much with them at least not the the booty and Gumby hands version which are the actual "survival suits" that prolong life for a longer time but I just don't see when you'd actually wear it unless you know you're about to jump into the water, like the boat's sinking in which case I'm sure they're great. I've got one of those suits that doesn't have the boots or gloves and it's great, it's warm clothing thats nearly waterproof, keeps the wind off you and is a full body lifejacket that I where anytime but the warmest of days and I can still do anything I need while sailing. Highly recommend one of those as necessary gear. #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 -- #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594 #ygrps-yiv-1971200986yiv4024675594ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1971200986 | 34907|34605|2018-03-16 17:09:18|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Yes rigid mounts are much noisier ,but super reliable. I prefer noisy and reliable over quite and doubtful, any time. To each his own.| 34908|34605|2018-03-16 17:18:41|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|I would probably have one, if  I were not in a steel boat. I found a dry suit in brand new condition in a Sally Am  thrift store, for a young lady who sails extensively in  a plastic boat.It had three price tags on. One said $450, the second said $95 and the  red sale price tag said $9.95. Fit her like a custom made one. Wrist and neck  seals let her wear wet suit gloves and hood ,but solid boots, with not a single scuff mark on the soles. Definitely useable for sailing in extreme weather.Meanwhile ,my wheelhouse makes a great dry suit.None dryer, or warmer!| 34909|34605|2018-03-16 18:37:33|rockrothwell|Re: Making your comment clear in context|Sorry, not very adept at this computer stuff.I was referring to someone's comment about the floppyness in my exhaust system being an indication of undue stress on the exhaut manifoldand my responce is...3p plus years undamaged not enough?| 34910|34605|2018-03-17 09:51:58|jpronk1|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|We cruised for a year on a very simple boat with minimal electronics a two burner alcohol stove an Engel fridge/freezer and a 9.8hp outboard. Are whole setup cost less then $6000. We met lots of boats that had spent that on electronics alone. James Sent from my iPhone| 34911|34605|2018-03-17 17:37:52|garyhlucas|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Just a a notice here for anyone looking for a diesel engine.  Fazzio Metals in Glassboro NJ has a Kubota 3 cylinder turbocharges diesel engine sitting there on a skid.  Asking $4000 I think and it appears to be brand new based on the skid and packaging.  They advertise on Ebay.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 9:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     We cruised for a year on a very simple boat with minimal electronics a two burner alcohol stove an Engel fridge/freezer and a 9.8hp outboard. Are whole setup cost less then $6000. We met lots of boats that had spent that on electronics alone. JamesSent from my iPhone| 34912|34605|2018-03-17 18:19:36|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Is a turbo charger a good idea on a small sailboat?   Certainly on a larger boat, a commercial boat, with lots of hotel loads, or where, for any reason, the engine is running a large fraction of the time, then, yes, the fuel and power efficiency boost of a turbo is good.   I would be even more concerned about water ingress into the exhaust with a turbocharger.   It is an expensive complication.   I also see oil seal and bearing failures that can feed oil into the intake and case engine runaways.   I would favour simpler in this case, even if it means buying more diesel and getting less power.    Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 5:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     Just a a notice here for anyone looking for a diesel engine.  Fazzio Metals in Glassboro NJ has a Kubota 3 cylinder turbocharges diesel engine sitting there on a skid.  Asking $4000 I think and it appears to be brand new based on the skid and packaging.  They advertise on Ebay.   From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 9:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey     We cruised for a year on a very simple boat with minimal electronics a two burner alcohol stove an Engel fridge/freezer and a 9.8hp outboard. Are whole setup cost less then $6000. We met lots of boats that had spent that on electronics alone. James Sent from my iPhone | 34913|34605|2018-03-17 18:46:13|brentswain38|Re: Making your comment clear in context|Just like  (fake news) Perry and his sucking groupies, claiming that an origami boat design which has  cruised with no serious structural problems at sea for over 40 years, surviving for weeks, on end , torture tests which would  have disintegrated their beloved plastic boats in minutes, "Are not strong enough."I heard  an interesting point on CBC radio today. Stephen Hawkings could not  do math in his condition, but was very good at visualizing things, which was the basis for most of his scientific breakthrus. When he wrote his most popular book, he was told he would lose half his audience with every formula he included, so he included none, and it was a best seller.He relied on logic and common sense.Seems there are two kinds of people, those who visualize, and those who calculate. Both are equally effective, some for one purpose, and some for others. Seems the problem the later have with origami they  seeing it as a collection of stand alone cross sections, rather than visualizing it, and the  forces on it as on a three dimensional object.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sorry, not very adept at this computer stuff.I was referring to someone's comment about the floppyness in my exhaust system being an indication of undue stress on the exhaut manifoldand my response is...30 plus years undamaged not enough?| 34914|34605|2018-03-17 18:51:31|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1069783614 #ygrps-yiv-1069783614ygrps-yiv-1138466559 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I think you can take the turbo off, and they run just fine without it ,with less HP. A dry exhaust eliminates the water ingress problem.My Isuzu has a leaf damper in the air intake for a shutoff, a good idea for anyone worried about runaway diesels.Is a turbo charger a good idea on a small sailboat?   Certainly on a larger boat, a commercial boat, with lots of hotel loads, or where, for any reason, the engine is running a large fraction of the time, then, yes, the fuel and power efficiency boost of a turbo is good.   I would be even more concerned about water ingress into the exhaust with a turbocharger.   It is an expensive complication.   I also see oil seal and bearing failures that can feed oil into the intake and case engine runaways.   I would favour simpler in this case, even if it means buying more diesel and getting less power.    Matt | 34915|34605|2018-03-18 23:24:32|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey| Could you post a pic or two of this exhaust setup.  Or, if it is difficult to post them, e-mail them to my personal address and I'll post them.  It sounds like it works, but it would be nice to look at some pics to figure out why.   10' of stainless pipe is going to want to expand about an inch as it transients from cold to running temps.  Similarly, that engine vibration would have to be absorbed somewhere.  That first loop after the manifold must be supported by a hanger or something?? On 18-03-14 09:28 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Winston built an all pipe exhaust on the Dove. Ä¢gotta check the size but exited the yanmar 20hp going up 180 and a long drop another 180 up to about 2/3 of available room and then about a 90 to getcha back to the loop just fwd of the transom. Loose and floppy with the engine out. Gotta toe it off. No fancy flex fittings but wrapped in wot looks like fiberglass. ....with polyester resin which seems odd to me but it worked well. Also had a jacket of 1 1/2 inch insulation atop that all laced up tight with monel Lovely work Lasted 30 years thus far & looks fine | 34916|34916|2018-03-19 15:59:53|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Digest Number 5243| The leaf damper sounds a good idea.Although I don't think that it is a common problem a failed oil seal on a turbo can make life interesting on the road and could be lethal  on a boat.Basically any oil sucked into the turbo past a failed seal will be burnt in the engine which makes the engine uncontrollable and produces a vast amount of black smoke.I'd just stopped the truck when the fire brigade and police turned up.Very embarrassing.Any pointers about adapting a car diesel for boat use much appreciated.There are a lot of 1.9 to 2.2 diesels over here in Europe - Peugeot/Citroen being fairly bullet proofcheersAndrew Airey On Sunday 18 March 2018, 19:27:58 GMT, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 4 Messages Digest #5243 1.1 Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey by garyhlucas 1.2 Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey by "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone 1.3 Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey by brentswain38 2.1 Re: Making your comment clear in context by brentswain38 Messages 1.1 Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:37 pm (PDT) . Posted by: garyhlucas Just a a notice here for anyone looking for a diesel engine. Fazzio Metals in Glassboro NJ has a Kubota 3 cylinder turbocharges diesel engine sitting there on a skid. Asking $4000 I think and it appears to be brand new based on the skid and packaging. They advertise on Ebay. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 9:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey We cruised for a year on a very simple boat with minimal electronics a two burner alcohol stove an Engel fridge/freezer and a 9.8hp outboard. Are whole setup cost less then $6000. We met lots of boats that had spent that on electronics alone. James Sent from my iPhone Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (114) . Top ^ 1.2 Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:19 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone Is a turbo charger a good idea on a small sailboat? Certainly on a larger boat, a commercial boat, with lots of hotel loads, or where, for any reason, the engine is running a large fraction of the time, then, yes, the fuel and power efficiency boost of a turbo is good. I would be even more concerned about water ingress into the exhaust with a turbocharger. It is an expensive complication. I also see oil seal and bearing failures that can feed oil into the intake and case engine runaways. I would favour simpler in this case, even if it means buying more diesel and getting less power. Matt ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 5:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey Just a a notice here for anyone looking for a diesel engine. Fazzio Metals in Glassboro NJ has a Kubota 3 cylinder turbocharges diesel engine sitting there on a skid. Asking $4000 I think and it appears to be brand new based on the skid and packaging. They advertise on Ebay. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 9:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey We cruised for a year on a very simple boat with minimal electronics a two burner alcohol stove an Engel fridge/freezer and a 9.8hp outboard. Are whole setup cost less then $6000. We met lots of boats that had spent that on electronics alone. James Sent from my iPhone Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (114) . Top ^ 1.3 Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I think you can take the turbo off, and they run just fine without it ,with less HP. A dry exhaust eliminates the water ingress problem. My Isuzu has a leaf damper in the air intake for a shutoff, a good idea for anyone worried about runaway diesels. Is a turbo charger a good idea on a small sailboat? Certainly on a larger boat, a commercial boat, with lots of hotel loads, or where, for any reason, the engine is running a large fraction of the time, then, yes, the fuel and power efficiency boost of a turbo is good. I would be even more concerned about water ingress into the exhaust with a turbocharger. It is an expensive complication. I also see oil seal and bearing failures that can feed oil into the intake and case engine runaways. I would favour simpler in this case, even if it means buying more diesel and getting less power. Matt Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (114) . Top ^ 2.1 Re: Making your comment clear in context Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:46 pm (PDT) . Posted by: brentswain38 Just like (fake news) Perry and his sucking groupies, claiming that an origami boat design which has cruised with no serious structural problems at sea for over 40 years, surviving for weeks, on end , torture tests which would have disintegrated their beloved plastic boats in minutes, "Are not strong enough." I heard an interesting point on CBC radio today. Stephen Hawkings could not do math in his condition, but was very good at visualizing things, which was the basis for most of his scientific breakthrus. When he wrote his most popular book, he was told he would lose half his audience with every formula he included, so he included none, and it was a best seller. He relied on logic and common sense. Seems there are two kinds of people, those who visualize, and those who calculate. Both are equally effective, some for one purpose, and some for others. Seems the problem the later have with origami they seeing it as a collection of stand alone cross sections, rather than visualizing it, and the forces on it as on a three dimensional object. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sorry, not very adept at this computer stuff. I was referring to someone' s comment about the floppyness in my exhaust system being an indication of undue stress on the exhaut manifold and my response is...30 plus years undamaged not enough? Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (114) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use | 34917|34605|2018-03-19 17:32:26|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust details, Re: Boat insurance/ the survey|Support the part after the manifold from a bell housing bolt.I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, how much expansion you would get on a pipe at 1100 degrees F. He said "1/4 inch in  15 feet."| 34918|34916|2018-03-19 17:34:14|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 5243|Shutting of the air with a Leaf damper would stop the fire quickly, fuel or no fuel .| 34919|34605|2018-03-20 13:44:51|rockrothwell|Re: dry exhaust details|Hey Darren,Your offer to forward photos much appreciated.Frusrtates 5he hell outta mart, and this fucking machine says" mart" for every word that beginsvwith the letter "m". Literally can not spell 2 of my families names.. Every update seems a shifting of the goalposts or a new format you have to re figureEnd of rant. Yes, I do appreciate your help, but please understand i have only a touch screen keyboard as both of my blootooth keyboards died.My email is rockrothwell@....Will send a coupla pickies within 24 hrs. of exhaust system.You mart also be interested in a little tank cleaning experiment usung electrolysis to remove rust. Only been going 5 hours & not running it overnight as i wanna keepna close ete on it, but that little sucker just humms. Got it on 6 amp at 12v, it's taking 9.38volts  at about 4amp,Its like a little perkolator, hydrogen so bloody wa5ch it, ventilation and ignitn source (the hindenberg was hydrogen wasn't it?)This am firing it up with everything clear having settled overnight could see begings of buildup of the iron oxide from rust in the tank starting to build up on the Annodes What i dont get is the current flows pos = annode = sacrificial to negative =ground = cathode = that which you are cleaning, but the debris which i figure is iron oxide, wot else could it be? The debris collects on the annode, but that's what is giving away the electrons.Ass backwards to my thinking but it seems to work. Apparently Needs 36 maybe 48 hours...Will send happy snapsShane| 34920|34920|2018-03-20 18:05:14|Richard Payne|Steel Hull Available Australia|Hi,For anyone interested there is a steel Pape design 36 ft yacht hull at Woy Woy Industrial Park. Well built and fair. Bare hull primed only.The price would be very reasonable. Phone John 0422134144I have no financial or otherwise interest.Cheers,Richard.| 34921|34920|2018-03-20 18:27:02|mountain man|Re: Steel Hull Available Australia|is it an Ebbtide or saga Pape model. ________________________________________ De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Richard Payne richard.payne36233@... [origamiboats] Envoyé : 20 mars 2018 17:58:41 À : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Steel Hull Available Australia Hi, For anyone interested there is a steel Pape design 36 ft yacht hull at Woy Woy Industrial Park. Well built and fair. Bare hull primed only. The price would be very reasonable. Phone John 0422134144 I have no financial or otherwise interest. Cheers, Richard.| 34922|34922|2018-03-20 19:21:10|smallboatvoyaguer|Star Route BS 31 For Sale| Greetings friends, After ongoing issues with carpal tunnel, tenosynovitis, and trigger finger in multiple digits, I'm departing with my dear project. Even if I teamed up with people and finished it, I can no longer sail displacement sailboats without having inflammatory flair ups.  I started in the fall of 2014. You can see Star Route in the photos section under the album BS 31' Star Route. Almost all of the welding is completed. The boat was sandblasted by a professional, and coated with Wasser weld thru zinc primer, two coats, immediately after sandblasting. Bilt in a freshwater, salt-less environment.$30,000or make an offer, or trade+money, etc etc. but please, be reasonable. I can't give it away. I literally spent almost everyday for three years on this, plus 5 years planning beforehand.I know this it's a crapshoot to estimate but I'd say if one was really motivated, they could have it in the water within a year.More photos here: https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/Boat is located in Bayfield, WI.Almost everything is here to complete the boat: Engine - low hour working Yanmar 3hm35f (need to double check this)boatall steel to complete boat, including extra sheets/scraps of stainless2 35 pound CQR anchors1 35 pound bruce anchor1 danforth anchor1 folding rock anchor1 grappeling hookApprox 1/2 of the wood for the interior (walnut/maple)Cedar tongue and Groovegimbaled propane stove top2 propane tanksall wiring and electrical (including isolators, switchboard, etc)radioradarSSB Radiowind generator + extra wind genny for parts (ampair 100 watt)Composting toiletspeakersprop shaftchain and rode x2many extra linesfenderslead for keelextra primercoal tar epoxy (wasser)mastboomsailsblockshardwaremanual bilge pumpsgalley pumpsfuel tankodds and endsplus many things I'm forgetting | 34923|34922|2018-03-20 19:49:50|Matt Malone|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale| Would this photo show something close to its current state? https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/#jp-carousel-176 The photographs in the wordpress website are in apparent random order, and there are photographs of a 36' that I am guessing is not yours too, so, just to reduce confusion, perhaps can you point out the most recent photo? Thanks, Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 7:14 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Star Route BS 31 For Sale      Greetings friends,  After ongoing issues with carpal tunnel, tenosynovitis, and trigger finger in multiple digits, I'm departing with my dear project. Even if I teamed up with people and finished it, I can no longer sail displacement sailboats without having inflammatory flair ups.  I started in the fall of 2014. You can see Star Route in the photos section under the album BS 31' Star Route.  Almost all of the welding is completed. The boat was sandblasted by a professional, and coated with Wasser weld thru zinc primer, two coats, immediately after sandblasting. Bilt in a freshwater, salt-less environment. $30,000 or make an offer, or trade+money, etc etc. but please, be reasonable. I can't give it away. I literally spent almost everyday for three years on this, plus 5 years planning beforehand. I know this it's a crapshoot to estimate but I'd say if one was really motivated, they could have it in the water within a year. More photos here: https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/ Boat is located in Bayfield, WI. Almost everything is here to complete the boat:   Engine - low hour working Yanmar 3hm35f (need to double check this) boatall steel to complete boat, including extra sheets/scraps of stainless 2 35 pound CQR anchors1 35 pound bruce anchor1 danforth anchor1 folding rock anchor 1 grappeling hookApprox 1/2 of the wood for the interior (walnut/maple)Cedar tongue and Groovegimbaled propane stove top2 propane tanksall wiring and electrical (including isolators, switchboard, etc) radioradarSSB Radio wind generator + extra wind genny for parts (ampair 100 watt) Composting toiletspeakersprop shaftchain and rode x2 many extra linesfenderslead for keelextra primercoal tar epoxy (wasser)mastboomsailsblockshardwaremanual bilge pumpsgalley pumpsfuel tankodds and endsplus many things I'm forgetting   | 34924|34922|2018-03-20 19:54:10|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|See the photos on this forum for the most current state. I just uploaded some recently.BS 31' Star Route| 34925|34605|2018-03-20 20:28:58|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Sounds good Shane, I built an alkaline electrolytic cleaning tank a while back when I was restoring a car.  In this case I think the cleaned part is negative because you need to give an electron to the oxygen in the rust (Fe2O3), to break the rust free and convert some of it to magnetite (Fe3O4).  The electron source is the battery charger, so there is an abundant supply.  Given that you are forcing electrons into the system, things are reversed from battery (galvanic cell). I've been using a similar process with reversed polarity to clean my stainless welds.  With the positive lead connected to the part you want to clean and using an acidic solution, you can electropolish the part.  The only rust I had on the older stainless on my boat was around the welds.  Electropolishing with a brush works brilliantly to clean up welds and other small areas.  I use a carbon fiber brush (made from carbon fiber woven roving), 10% citric acid solution (slower) or Surfox-T (faster).  12V is a bit on the low side for this process, but I found I could get good results if the current was high enough (I put an old car battery in parallel with my charger).  I intend to invest in a proper power supply given that the results are so nice.  For a few small touchups on a boat, it wouldn't be hard to cobble something together at anchor.  The Surfox-T is fairly nasty stuff, the citric acid less so.  Anyone, contemplating this should do a bit of research and assess safety.  I wear nitrile gloves, a full face shield, a respirator and work in a well ventilated area.  Whatever you do, don't use pickling paste for this (contains very nasty hydroflouric acid), or something else you're not sure of.   The nice thing about electropolishing is that it cleans (removes free iron), passivates and smooths the stainless part.  On a microscopic scale you are literally eroding away the peaks of the metal (microscopic roughness) to leave a passive, more corrosion resistant, chromium rich surface.  Note, I'm not advocating setting up big toxic baths for electropolishing entire parts, I'm talking about a small brush 1cm (0.5") across, and you only use a about 20-40ml (a wee dram) or so of cleaning solution per cleaning session. On 18-03-20 08:38 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Hey Darren, Your offer to forward photos much appreciated. Frusrtates 5he hell outta mart, and this fucking machine says" mart" for every word that beginsvwith the letter "m". Literally can not spell 2 of my families names. . Every update seems a shifting of the goalposts or a new format you have to re figure End of rant. Yes, I do appreciate your help, but please understand i have only a touch screen keyboard as both of my blootooth keyboards died. My email is rockrothwell@.... Will send a coupla pickies within 24 hrs. of exhaust system. You mart also be interested in a little tank cleaning experiment usung electrolysis to remove rust. Only been going 5 hours & not running it overnight as i wanna keepna close ete on it, but that little sucker just humms. Got it on 6 amp at 12v, it's taking 9.38volts  at about 4amp, Its like a little perkolator, hydrogen so bloody wa5ch it, ventilation and ignitn source (the hindenberg was hydrogen wasn't it?) This am firing it up with everything clear having settled overnight could see begings of buildup of the iron oxide from rust in the tank starting to build up on the Annodes  What i dont get is the current flows pos = annode = sacrificial to negative =ground = cathode = that which you are cleaning, but the debris which i figure is iron oxide, wot else could it be? The debris collects on the annode, but that's what is giving away the electrons. Ass backwards to my thinking but it seems to work. Apparently Needs 36 maybe 48 hours... Will send happy snaps Shane | 34926|34605|2018-03-21 17:07:46|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :As, once the brush is soaked in acid,any brush becomes a good conductor , I am wondering how relevant using a carbon brush is.Sounds good Shane,I built an alkaline electrolytic cleaning tank a while back when I was restoring a car.  In this case I think the cleaned part is negative because you need to give an electron to the oxygen in the rust (Fe2O3), to break the rust free and convert some of it to magnetite (Fe3O4).  The electron source is the battery charger, so there is an abundant supply.  Given that you are forcing electrons into the system, things are reversed from battery (galvanic cell).I've been using a similar process with reversed polarity to clean my stainless welds.  With the positive lead connected to the part you want to clean and using an acidic solution, you can electropolish the part.  The only rust I had on the older stainless on my boat was around the welds.  Electropolishing with a brush works brilliantly to clean up welds and other small areas.  I use a carbon fiber brush (made from carbon fiber woven roving), 10% citric acid solution (slower) or Surfox-T (faster).  12V is a bit on the low side for this process, but I found I could get good results if the current was high enough (I put an old car battery in parallel with my charger).  I intend to invest in a proper power supply given that the results are so nice.  For a few small touchups on a boat, it wouldn't be hard to cobble something together at anchor.  The Surfox-T is fairly nasty stuff, the citric acid less so.  Anyone, contemplating this should do a bit of research and assess safety.  I wear nitrile gloves, a full face shield, a respirator and work in a well ventilated area.  Whatever you do, don't use pickling paste for this (contains very nasty hydroflouric acid), or something else you're not sure of.   The nice thing about electropolishing is that it cleans (removes free iron), passivates and smooths the stainless part.  On a microscopic scale you are literally eroding away the peaks of the metal (microscopic roughness) to leave a passive, more corrosion resistant, chromium rich surface.  Note, I'm not advocating setting up big toxic baths for electropolishing entire parts, I'm talking about a small brush 1cm (0.5") across, and you only use a about 20-40ml (a wee dram) or so of cleaning solution per cleaning session. On 18-03-20 08:38 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:  Hey Darren,Your offer to forward photos much appreciated.Frusrtates 5he hell outta mart, and this fucking machine says" mart" for every word that beginsvwith the letter "m". Literally can not spell 2 of my families names.. Every update seems a shifting of the goalposts or a new format you have to re figureEnd of rant. Yes, I do appreciate your help, but please understand i have only a touch screen keyboard as both of my blootooth keyboards died.My email is rockrothwell@....Will send a coupla pickies within 24 hrs. of exhaust system.You mart also be interested in a little tank cleaning experiment usung electrolysis to remove rust. Only been going 5 hours & not running it overnight as i wanna keepna close ete on it, but that little sucker just humms. Got it on 6 amp at 12v, it's taking 9.38volts  at about 4amp,Its like a little perkolator, hydrogen so bloody wa5ch it, ventilation and ignitn source (the hindenberg was hydrogen wasn't it?)This am firing it up with everything clear having settled overnight could see begings of buildup of the iron oxide from rust in the tank starting to build up on the Annodes What i dont get is the current flows pos = annode = sacrificial to negative =ground = cathode = that which you are cleaning, but the debris which i figure is iron oxide, wot else could it be? The debris collects on the annode, but that's what is giving away the electrons.Ass backwards to my thinking but it seems to work. Apparently Needs 36 maybe 48 hours...Will send happy snapsShane | 34927|34927|2018-03-21 17:37:19|Richard Payne|Steel Hull Australia|I think it is an Ebbtide - multi chine, long keel, transom hung rudder about 36 ft.| 34928|34605|2018-03-21 20:54:25|rockrothwell|Re: dry exhaust details|Darren, Very very dangerous shit you are doing with cromeates. This is what Erin Brokovitch was all about. To hell with parts per million. Think perbillion and it's ad nasty as it gets. I hope your ok and I'd check onto it mate. Kayrrrist I hope I'm wrong.| 34929|34605|2018-03-22 11:46:37|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| I'm not sure, looks like some folks make homemade brushes with a stainless plate wrapped in foam and covered with fiberglass.  You just have to make sure the current density is high enough, otherwise you end up etching rather than electropolishing.  So, the larger your brush, the higher current levels you need to work at.  If there is steam and bubbles, and the part is getting shinier, rather than duller, you are probably in the right range.  For a small brush (1/2" dia), something like 5amps is probably a reasonable starting point.  You can find citric acid in most grocery stores during the canning season, and all year round in most health food stores.  I used a 10% solution weight for weight (10g citric acid powder in 100g water).  On 18-03-21 01:49 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   As, once the brush is soaked in acid,any brush becomes a good conductor , I am wondering how relevant using a carbon brush is. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I've been using a similar process with reversed polarity to clean my stainless welds.  With the positive lead connected to the part you want to clean and using an acidic solution, you can electropolish the part.  The only rust I had on the older stainless on my boat was around the welds.  Electropolishing with a brush works brilliantly to clean up welds and other small areas.  I use a carbon fiber brush (made from carbon fiber woven roving), 10% citric acid solution (slower) or Surfox-T (faster).  12V is a bit on the low side for this process, but I found I could get good results if the current was high enough (I put an old car battery in parallel with my charger).  I intend to invest in a proper power supply given that the results are so nice.  For a few small touchups on a boat, it wouldn't be hard to cobble something together at anchor.  The Surfox-T is fairly nasty stuff, the citric acid less so.  Anyone, contemplating this should do a bit of research and assess safety.  I wear nitrile gloves, a full face shield, a respirator and work in a well ventilated area.  Whatever you do, don't use pickling paste for this (contains very nasty hydroflouric acid), or something else you're not sure of.   The nice thing about electropolishing is that it cleans (removes free iron), passivates and smooths the stainless part.  On a microscopic scale you are literally eroding away the peaks of the metal (microscopic roughness) to leave a passive, more corrosion resistant, chromium rich surface.  Note, I'm not advocating setting up big toxic baths for electropolishing entire parts, I'm talking about a small brush 1cm (0.5") across, and you only use a about 20-40ml (a wee dram) or so of cleaning solution per cleaning session. | 34930|34605|2018-03-22 12:49:03|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Hey Shane, That's hexavalent chromium you're thinking about and I think it is mostly related to plating chromium.  I admit that I hadn't thought of it, given that these electropolishing rigs are commercially available and widely sold to welders for this exact purpose.  The commercial literature around them talks about removing iron while leaving a chromium rich surface.  I agree it is worth caution.  I think even just welding stainless can produce a bit of hexavalent chromium (you make hexavalent chromium by oxidizing chromium at high temperatures) so it may also be a question of quantity.  If you look at this commercial video, they have fume extraction, but no respirator etc.  and although they sell a neutralizing solution, the only disposal guides are to comply with local regulations without a specified hazardous waste disposal. In the end, I think I may have an even better solution.  When I started putting my exhaust together I did a test piece that I left partially submerged in saltwater.  I tested 304 stainless as it is easier and quicker to see the corrosion on it.  I tested, plain bar, bar scrubbed with a scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid, and electropolishing.  After reading your email I went out and grabbed the test piece.  It hasn't really been long enough for major corrosion, but under the microscope I can see corrosion starting on the untreated part of the stainless, but also on the electropolished.  The bit scrubbed with the scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid is the only bit free of corrosion.  This isn't what I expected, and I'd made the piece largely just to prove to myself how nice the electropolished pieces are.  Since Oxalic acid is available cheaply and easily as Barkeeper's Friend, that may be the wiser way to go.  Use just enough water to make a paste and then scrub with the scotchbrite pad. On 18-03-21 05:54 PM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, Very very dangerous shit you are doing with cromeates. This is what Erin Brokovitch was all about. To hell with parts per million. Think perbillion and it's ad nasty as it gets. I hope your ok and I'd check onto it mate. Kayrrrist I hope I'm wrong. | 34931|34605|2018-03-22 13:05:44|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| I have been reading this home brew chemical and electricity method.  I am not saying for sure it is a bad idea, but I am very nervous.   4-6 Volts is sufficient to overcome all possible chemistry, and make any reaction run backwards.   "Stainless" steel is not even all stainless in salt water at 20C, let alone pure acids (some of the strongest chemical reactions), and they potentially (ha ha) have nothing on undesirable chemistry driven by 12 Volts.   I sure would not want to walk away from it while it is working because I might come back to find my part "gone".  One thing I am sure of, the procedure and all safeguards and cautions has not been described clearly enough in this thread that I would risk duplicating the procedure for concern of making something unexpected happen.   I am not saying CLR or Oxalic Acid are "safe" but it seems to me it would be harder to get into trouble with those than it would be with an unregulated battery charger. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 12:48 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     Hey Shane, That's hexavalent chromium you're thinking about and I think it is mostly related to plating chromium.  I admit that I hadn't thought of it, given that these electropolishing rigs are commercially available and widely sold to welders for this exact purpose.  The commercial literature around them talks about removing iron while leaving a chromium rich surface.  I agree it is worth caution.  I think even just welding stainless can produce a bit of hexavalent chromium (you make hexavalent chromium by oxidizing chromium at high temperatures) so it may also be a question of quantity.  If you look at this commercial video, they have fume extraction, but no respirator etc.  and although they sell a neutralizing solution, the only disposal guides are to comply with local regulations without a specified hazardous waste disposal. In the end, I think I may have an even better solution.  When I started putting my exhaust together I did a test piece that I left partially submerged in saltwater.  I tested 304 stainless as it is easier and quicker to see the corrosion on it.  I tested, plain bar, bar scrubbed with a scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid, and electropolishing.  After reading your email I went out and grabbed the test piece.  It hasn't really been long enough for major corrosion, but under the microscope I can see corrosion starting on the untreated part of the stainless, but also on the electropolished.  The bit scrubbed with the scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid is the only bit free of corrosion.  This isn't what I expected, and I'd made the piece largely just to prove to myself how nice the electropolished pieces are.  Since Oxalic acid is available cheaply and easily as Barkeeper's Friend, that may be the wiser way to go.  Use just enough water to make a paste and then scrub with the scotchbrite pad. On 18-03-21 05:54 PM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, Very very dangerous shit you are doing with cromeates. This is what Erin Brokovitch was all about. To hell with parts per million. Think perbillion and it's ad nasty as it gets. I hope your ok and I'd check onto it mate. Kayrrrist I hope I'm wrong. | 34932|34605|2018-03-22 14:42:48|garyhlucas|Re: dry exhaust details| Worrying too much.  I built an electropolishing setup for a customer that put out 200 amps of DC because they electropolished every part they used and they didn’t want to spend days doing it.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 1:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details       I have been reading this home brew chemical and electricity method.  I am not saying for sure it is a bad idea, but I am very nervous.   4-6 Volts is sufficient to overcome all possible chemistry, and make any reaction run backwards.   "Stainless" steel is not even all stainless in salt water at 20C, let alone pure acids (some of the strongest chemical reactions), and they potentially (ha ha) have nothing on undesirable chemistry driven by 12 Volts.   I sure would not want to walk away from it while it is working because I might come back to find my part "gone".   One thing I am sure of, the procedure and all safeguards and cautions has not been described clearly enough in this thread that I would risk duplicating the procedure for concern of making something unexpected happen.     I am not saying CLR or Oxalic Acid are "safe" but it seems to me it would be harder to get into trouble with those than it would be with an unregulated battery charger.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 12:48 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     Hey Shane, That's hexavalent chromium you're thinking about and I think it is mostly related to plating chromium.  I admit that I hadn't thought of it, given that these electropolishing rigs are commercially available and widely sold to welders for this exact purpose.  The commercial literature around them talks about removing iron while leaving a chromium rich surface.  I agree it is worth caution.  I think even just welding stainless can produce a bit of hexavalent chromium (you make hexavalent chromium by oxidizing chromium at high temperatures) so it may also be a question of quantity.  If you look at this commercial video, they have fume extraction, but no respirator etc.  and although they sell a neutralizing solution, the only disposal guides are to comply with local regulations without a specified hazardous waste disposal. In the end, I think I may have an even better solution.  When I started putting my exhaust together I did a test piece that I left partially submerged in saltwater.  I tested 304 stainless as it is easier and quicker to see the corrosion on it.  I tested, plain bar, bar scrubbed with a scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid, and electropolishing.  After reading your email I went out and grabbed the test piece.  It hasn't really been long enough for major corrosion, but under the microscope I can see corrosion starting on the untreated part of the stainless, but also on the electropolished.  The bit scrubbed with the scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid is the only bit free of corrosion.  This isn't what I expected, and I'd made the piece largely just to prove to myself how nice the electropolished pieces are.  Since Oxalic acid is available cheaply and easily as Barkeeper's Friend, that may be the wiser way to go.  Use just enough water to make a paste and then scrub with the scotchbrite pad. On 18-03-21 05:54 PM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren,Very very dangerous shit you are doing with cromeates. This is what Erin Brokovitch was all about. To hell with parts per million. Think perbillion and it's ad nasty as it gets.I hope your ok and I'd check onto it mate.Kayrrrist I hope I'm wrong. | 34933|34605|2018-03-22 15:13:49|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| Ok Gary I will accept that you can do it and others can do it, and after looking at the photographs of results on the internet, I think I might try it on scrap to see if I can get it right.   Still, I am not yet ready to do it to anything costly to replace, or where it would be hazardous if it broke.  An amateur using an unfamiliar method to polish safety gear is just ... asking for it, on many levels. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 2:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     Worrying too much.  I built an electropolishing setup for a customer that put out 200 amps of DC because they electropolished every part they used and they didn’t want to spend days doing it.     From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 1:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details       I have been reading this home brew chemical and electricity method.  I am not saying for sure it is a bad idea, but I am very nervous.   4-6 Volts is sufficient to overcome all possible chemistry, and make any reaction run backwards.   "Stainless" steel is not even all stainless in salt water at 20C, let alone pure acids (some of the strongest chemical reactions), and they potentially (ha ha) have nothing on undesirable chemistry driven by 12 Volts.   I sure would not want to walk away from it while it is working because I might come back to find my part "gone".   One thing I am sure of, the procedure and all safeguards and cautions has not been described clearly enough in this thread that I would risk duplicating the procedure for concern of making something unexpected happen.     I am not saying CLR or Oxalic Acid are "safe" but it seems to me it would be harder to get into trouble with those than it would be with an unregulated battery charger.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 12:48 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     Hey Shane, That's hexavalent chromium you're thinking about and I think it is mostly related to plating chromium.  I admit that I hadn't thought of it, given that these electropolishing rigs are commercially available and widely sold to welders for this exact purpose.  The commercial literature around them talks about removing iron while leaving a chromium rich surface.  I agree it is worth caution.  I think even just welding stainless can produce a bit of hexavalent chromium (you make hexavalent chromium by oxidizing chromium at high temperatures) so it may also be a question of quantity.  If you look at this commercial video, they have fume extraction, but no respirator etc.  and although they sell a neutralizing solution, the only disposal guides are to comply with local regulations without a specified hazardous waste disposal. In the end, I think I may have an even better solution.  When I started putting my exhaust together I did a test piece that I left partially submerged in saltwater.  I tested 304 stainless as it is easier and quicker to see the corrosion on it.  I tested, plain bar, bar scrubbed with a scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid, and electropolishing.  After reading your email I went out and grabbed the test piece.  It hasn't really been long enough for major corrosion, but under the microscope I can see corrosion starting on the untreated part of the stainless, but also on the electropolished.  The bit scrubbed with the scotchbrite pad and oxalic acid is the only bit free of corrosion.  This isn't what I expected, and I'd made the piece largely just to prove to myself how nice the electropolished pieces are.  Since Oxalic acid is available cheaply and easily as Barkeeper's Friend, that may be the wiser way to go.  Use just enough water to make a paste and then scrub with the scotchbrite pad. On 18-03-21 05:54 PM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Darren, Very very dangerous shit you are doing with cromeates. This is what Erin Brokovitch was all about. To hell with parts per million. Think perbillion and it's ad nasty as it gets. I hope your ok and I'd check onto it mate. Kayrrrist I hope I'm wrong. | 34934|34605|2018-03-22 17:29:26|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| On the flip side Matt, you have to do something.  With stainless if you don't post treat the weld in some way, then you have a guaranteed recipe for corrosion.  Mechanical methods really aren't great because on a microscopic scale you're really just smearing things around and this creates an opportunity for corrosion to start.  Standard issue pickling paste contains hydroflouric acid, which is enough to make any of the other chemicals were talking about look downright friendly.  So, what is the alternative? Darren On 18-03-22 12:07 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Ok Gary I will accept that you can do it and others can do it, and after looking at the photographs of results on the internet, I think I might try it on scrap to see if I can get it right.   Still, I am not yet ready to do it to anything costly to replace, or where it would be hazardous if it broke.  An amateur using an unfamiliar method to polish safety gear is just ... asking for it, on many levels. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 2:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     Worrying too much.  I built an electropolishing setup for a customer that put out 200 amps of DC because they electropolished every part they used and they didn’t want to spend days doing it.     | 34935|34605|2018-03-23 15:26:50|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below.| 34936|34605|2018-03-23 15:55:37|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| So Brent, are you meaning to say that electropolishing has not seemed to be necessary in your opinion, that welding stainless to stainless using 316L or stainless to mild steel using 309L rod and ordinary cleaning was sufficient in your experience to avoid corrosion problems ?   I have only once welded a stainless fitting for a boat, a daysailor that has seen only fresh water.  I used a 7018 rod (because I do not stock 309L r 316L, and it is really expensive near me) to weld a stainless ring to a stainless track car, cleaned and ground it and painted it and in 15 years of weather and fresh water, there has been no problem.   I never imagined that would be OK for salt water, I was certain I would have to invest in stainless rod.  But electropolishing does look nice and yachty.   Is the carbon fibre brush attached to an electrode or it is just the used to rub the part ?     Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 3:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below. | 34937|34605|2018-03-24 11:15:35|rockrothwell|Re: dry exhaust details|And I've been welding stainless 316 & 309 for all of an hour and a half. Brent's methods got it hands down.I wanna go sailing| 34938|34605|2018-03-24 13:06:07|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| This is the kind of rust I'm talking about (dropbox folder link because Yahoo still won't allow photo upload).  This is part of our pulpit, I can't get a rare earth magnet to stick to it, so I suspect it's 316.  The rust is almost entirely confined to the areas around the welds.  I'm not sure why you don't have it on your boat Brent, but we looked at a lot of metal boats including Origami and the problem seems pretty widespread.   Here and here and here are examples from the Origamiboats photos section. Aren't your below waterline welds painted with epoxy, same with those where you've welded stainless to mild?  Still, you probably still have a lot of stainless welds exposed.  With stick welding you must be at least doing some post weld cleanup for the slag.  Are you doing nothing other than a wire brush and no kind of maintenance cleaning of the stainless?  What welding rod are you using?  You've done a lot of this, and I believe you have something that is working, what I'm trying to do is deal with the problems I have and prevent future ones. Darren On 18-03-23 12:21 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below. | 34939|34605|2018-03-24 13:27:47|don bourgeois|Re: dry exhaust details| One can also easily do zinc plating with common chemicals for above water applications. I do home plating for my diy car parts.   Don B   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 2:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below. | 34940|34605|2018-03-24 13:34:21|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| Hi Darren, Can you get the magnet to feel any attraction near the welds?   Separately, if you take a hand compass and pass it close to the welds, does the needle twitch?    The "stainless" result in certain alloys of metals is a delicate result of a lot of things, uniformity is important, and no residual stress and uniform heating and cooling can be among those things too.   A stress induced by the weld or the heat gradient in the heat affected zone may be making it not stainless locally, even though the alloy is unchanged.    If one does find some noticeable effect with either the magnet or the compass needle, one might do an experiment with stainless scrap.   Weld it in the same way, test it with the magnet and compass, see that you get the same results, then try heating it gently and widely with an oxy-acetylene torch. The goal is a smooth temperature profile, with a hot zone at least an inch on either side of the weld and see what the magnet and compass say after it is allowed to air cool.   If it is stress or the the result of the sharp heat gradient in the weld's heat affected zone, then either the problem will be way wider (in the scrap piece) and less severe, or, relatively, gone. Or you could just clean it and either wax it or clear-coat the area.   It works on cars to make not-a- all-stainless steel into relatively rust free steel.   It should work on a little section of stainless to bump it up to being stainless again.   Or you could use the electro polish method, but it seems that an oxy-acetylene torch applied gently is taking it back to when the stainless tube was made in the first place.   Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details     This is the kind of rust I'm talking about (dropbox folder link because Yahoo still won't allow photo upload).  This is part of our pulpit, I can't get a rare earth magnet to stick to it, so I suspect it's 316.  The rust is almost entirely confined to the areas around the welds.  I'm not sure why you don't have it on your boat Brent, but we looked at a lot of metal boats including Origami and the problem seems pretty widespread.   Here and here and here are examples from the Origamiboats photos section. Aren't your below waterline welds painted with epoxy, same with those where you've welded stainless to mild?  Still, you probably still have a lot of stainless welds exposed.  With stick welding you must be at least doing some post weld cleanup for the slag.  Are you doing nothing other than a wire brush and no kind of maintenance cleaning of the stainless?  What welding rod are you using?  You've done a lot of this, and I believe you have something that is working, what I'm trying to do is deal with the problems I have and prevent future ones. Darren On 18-03-23 12:21 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below. | 34941|34605|2018-03-24 13:46:41|Stephen Wandling|Re: dry exhaust details|I commonly had rust in 316 welds before I was informed I was causing it by using grinding, cutting disks, and especially lap disks, that had previously been used on mild steel. On Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 10:07 AM Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats], wrote:   This is the kind of rust I'm talking about (dropbox folder link because Yahoo still won't allow photo upload).  This is part of our pulpit, I can't get a rare earth magnet to stick to it, so I suspect it's 316.  The rust is almost entirely confined to the areas around the welds.  I'm not sure why you don't have it on your boat Brent, but we looked at a lot of metal boats including Origami and the problem seems pretty widespread.   Here and here and here are examples from the Origamiboats photos section. Aren't your below waterline welds painted with epoxy, same with those where you've welded stainless to mild?  Still, you probably still have a lot of stainless welds exposed.  With stick welding you must be at least doing some post weld cleanup for the slag.  Are you doing nothing other than a wire brush and no kind of maintenance cleaning of the stainless?  What welding rod are you using?  You've done a lot of this, and I believe you have something that is working, what I'm trying to do is deal with the problems I have and prevent future ones. Darren On 18-03-23 12:21 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below. | 34942|34605|2018-03-24 15:36:39|Aaron|Re: dry exhaust details|A carbon steel hand brush or wire wheel will cause rust to form on any grade of stainless steel or duplex. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Stephen Wandling swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I commonly had rust in 316 welds before I was informed I was causing it by using grinding, cutting disks, and especially lap disks, that had previously been used on mild steel.On Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 10:07 AM Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats], wrote:   This is the kind of rust I'm talking about (dropbox folder link because Yahoo still won't allow photo upload).  This is part of our pulpit, I can't get a rare earth magnet to stick to it, so I suspect it's 316.  The rust is almost entirely confined to the areas around the welds.  I'm not sure why you don't have it on your boat Brent, but we looked at a lot of metal boats including Origami and the problem seems pretty widespread.   Here and here and here are examples from the Origamiboats photos section. Aren't your below waterline welds painted with epoxy, same with those where you've welded stainless to mild?  Still, you probably still have a lot of stainless welds exposed.  With stick welding you must be at least doing some post weld cleanup for the slag.  Are you doing nothing other than a wire brush and no kind of maintenance cleaning of the stainless?  What welding rod are you using?  You've done a lot of this, and I believe you have something that is working, what I'm trying to do is deal with the problems I have and prevent future ones. Darren On 18-03-23 12:21 PM, brentswain38@... 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cosmetics.With  a sanding disc followed by the brillo pad type polishing disc on an angle grinder,you can get it super shiny.Yes, never use a disk already used  for mild steel , on stainless, for your final polishing. Fine for preliminary grinding ,but not for final grinding.| 34945|34605|2018-03-24 18:59:42|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What these pictures show is welding smoke ,not corrosion. Brush them off with a sanding disc and brillo pad on an angle grinder or die grinder, and they wont come back.Some of my underwater stainless welds are epoxied, some are not. Doesn't make any difference, at least not in the last 40 years. Bare stainless only grows more barnackles.The only cleanup I have done on most is simply chipping the slag off.There is a cultural quirk in boat building which is the belief that "If you can find a way to make things more tedious, time consuming and expensive,  then you MUST  be doing a better job. That is the kind of thinking which pointlessly turns a one year project into a ten year project, with no benefits in the long run.  It is the far more important  decisions which differentiate  a good boat from  a bad one..As Haidan has pointed out "You are not building a nuclear submarine. So just build the damned thing and go cruising!"This is the kind of rust I'm talking about (dropbox folder link because Yahoo still won't allow photo upload).  This is part of our pulpit, I can't get a rare earth magnet to stick to it, so I suspect it's 316.  The rust is almost entirely confined to the areas around the welds.  I'm not sure why you don't have it on your boat Brent, but we looked at a lot of metal boats including Origami and the problem seems pretty widespread.   Here and here and here are examples from the Origamiboats photos section.Aren't your below waterline welds painted with epoxy, same with those where you've welded stainless to mild?  Still, you probably still have a lot of stainless welds exposed.  With stick welding you must be at least doing some post weld cleanup for the slag.  Are you doing nothing other than a wire brush and no kind of maintenance cleaning of the stainless?  What welding rod are you using?  You've done a lot of this, and I believe you have something that is working, what I'm trying to do is deal with the problems I have and prevent future ones.Darren On 18-03-23 12:21 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have been stick welding stainless for decades,have done nothing more, some I left and some I ground with the angle grinder, and have had zero corrosion problems , above the waterline or below. | 34946|34605|2018-03-24 20:56:19|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|I was once given a bit of 400 series magnetic stainless for my wood stove.It rusted thru in 30 years,  while the 316 next to it was in perfect  condition.That is why, when you go to a scrapyard to  buy your stainless galley sink,you should  take along a magnet. The magnetic ones corrode in the tropics, but not the non magnetic ones  .Ditto strainers, pots . spoons and forks. Made in Asia pots spoons and forks are all magnetic and will rust .Made in India stuff is non magnetic, and wont rust.I haven't been able to find a non magnetic table knife.May have to make my own.The new are earth magnets in hardware stores are a lot more powerful, and effective.| 34947|34605|2018-03-24 21:18:26|opuspaul|Re: dry exhaust details|My local hardware store is now stocking 302 SS screws and hardware.   I thought 304 was bad but compared to 304 it is absolute crap.  Exposed to the weather and to salt, it rusts quickly.  I really don't think it lasts any longer than galv hardware.  When you ask for 316, they just shrug their shoulders.  They don't really care because there is more profit in the 302 and there are many people still happy to buy it.   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I was once given a bit of 400 series magnetic stainless for my wood stove.It rusted thru in 30 years,  while the 316 next to it was in perfect  condition.That is why, when you go to a scrapyard to  buy your stainless galley sink,you should  take along a magnet. The magnetic ones corrode in the tropics, but not the non magnetic ones  .Ditto strainers, pots . spoons and forks. Made in Asia pots spoons and forks are all magnetic and will rust .Made in India stuff is non magnetic, and wont rust.I haven't been able to find a non magnetic table knife.May have to make my own.The new are earth magnets in hardware stores are a lot more powerful, and effective.| 34948|34605|2018-03-24 21:23:14|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| The magnet trick does not determine alloy.  It determines if a particular section of a part is magnetic.  Brent is right, there is some correlation between magnetism and a particular alloy being less stainless.  But with sinks a non magnetic alloy may be stamped and stressed and sections will become magnetic.   Check your double kitchen sink in different places and you will find various levels of magnetism.   A non magnetic part may be the same alloy, just it was post processed to recover raw properties. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 24, 20:57 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I was once given a bit of 400 series magnetic stainless for my wood stove.It rusted thru in 30 years,  while the 316 next to it was in perfect  condition. That is why, when you go to a scrapyard to  buy your stainless galley sink,you should  take along a magnet. The magnetic ones corrode in the tropics, but not the non magnetic ones  .Ditto strainers, pots . spoons and forks. Made in Asia pots spoons and forks are all magnetic and will rust .Made in India stuff is non magnetic, and wont rust. I haven't been able to find a non magnetic table knife.May have to make my own. The new are earth magnets in hardware stores are a lot more powerful, and effective. | 34949|34605|2018-03-25 13:37:17|aguysailing|Re: Prioritizing gear|I use a typical climbing harness which has leg straps and then attach a short rope via a stainless snap connector to taught non-stretch rope jacklines.   The climbing harness (around waist) allows for one of those short kayak life jackets, the ones with pockets which contain my floating vhf radio and 6 flares just in off chance I unclip for a moment or 2.   | 34950|34605|2018-03-25 13:49:06|aguysailing|Re: Prioritizing gear|I have never heard of a Swain boat sinking.   Interesting to know that there is actually a suit that can save you for days if you end up in the water.| 34951|34605|2018-03-25 14:34:06|Stephen Wandling|Re: Prioritizing gear|Brent will probably have a comment on your harness. I have a similar harness, but only use it as a bosun chair. I was an avid rock climber for years and even on rock, I recommend adding a chest harness as well. This can be as simple as a loop of rope twisted into a figure 8 and put on like a coat with a locking carrininer holding it together in the front. The rope from the sit harness will pass through the chest carribiner.You might want to test your harness, by itself, by jumping off your boat, sailed (motored is probably best) by a friend, and trying to get back aboard, on your own. Good luck On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 10:37 AM aguysailing@... [origamiboats], wrote:   I use a typical climbing harness which has leg straps and then attach a short rope via a stainless snap connector to taught non-stretch rope jacklines.   The climbing harness (around waist) allows for one of those short kayak life jackets, the ones with pockets which contain my floating vhf radio and 6 flares just in off chance I unclip for a moment or 2.    | 34952|34605|2018-03-25 15:52:38|Matt Malone|Re: Prioritizing gear| Is it possible that someone might fall off a Swain boat for a few minutes ?  No suit that I have seen has been rated for days, though if the water temperature is a relatively warm like 15C, perhaps the polar suits will keep a person going for days.   But who wears their Polar suit on a sunny day off Northern California ?  Who even has a polar suit there? SOLAS standards: http://www.oshsi.nl.ca/userfiles/files/P00074.pdf Immersion Suit Systems - oshsi.nl.ca www.oshsi.nl.ca NATIONAL STANDARD OF CANADA CAN/CGSB-65.16-2005 Supersedes CAN/CGSB-65.16-99 IMMERSION SUIT SYSTEMS Prepared by the Approved by the Canadian General Standards Board ... For Canada are 6 hours survival time in 0C to 2C water, where the definition of survival is core body temperature does not drop below 35C, extremity body temperature never to drop below 10C. That is survival time, not conscious time and not "capable of doing things" time.  Even after one survives for 6 hours and is pulled out, post-exposure collapse of bodily functions is still possible and medical attention may be required.   There are "polar" rated suits for any temperature of liquid sea water (which might be as low as -4C) some are rated for 25 hours -- no guarantee what state one would be in after 25 hours.  As with cold weather gear for use inland, there are options to don layers -- diver's thermal underwear, then a dry suit, then the survival suit, and this can provide a longer duration, but, one would really have to be planning their immersion ahead of time to do that.  Perhaps with the best of everything and as many layers as one could stand, one might survive for 2 days.  For the small cruiser, I see the survival suit more for extending one's useful time to save oneself.  In regular clothing one has a very small number of useful minutes, perhaps as little as 2 minutes if the water is near freezing, after that one is useless, not thinking clearly, lacking strength and must be lifted out by someone else.   With a survival suit, I hope that would be 30+ minutes of completely lucid, full strength time to get out of the water and expect not to require medical attention after getting out.      Taking one's survival suit to a shallow beach at a freshwater lake in the fall and trying it is worth it to appreciate what it provides.  Because water transfers heat out about 25 times faster than air at the same temperature, it really does not take long laying in the water to appreciate, the suit is not going to keep the cold of the water away near-indefinitely in the same way that dry winter clothes do in cold air.   The body will loose this race, one just has more time. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 1:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Prioritizing gear     I have never heard of a Swain boat sinking.   Interesting to know that there is actually a suit that can save you for days if you end up in the water. | 34953|34605|2018-03-25 16:45:18|Aaron|Re: Prioritizing gear|Of as you say whose is gonna be wearing one on a normal day.Mandatory equipment on commercial crab boats fishing in the Bearing SeaThe suits main purpose is if one has to abandon ship. Your best chance of survival is with a suit on and a life raft. The oil companies like BP, ConocoPhillips make it mandatory training and you must wear one for Helicopter travel over water on the North Slope Alaska.Travel by boat or hovercraft they had the suits on board but you did not have to have it on.I carry 4 on my 22' power boat fishing in Lower Cook Inlet to the Gulf of Alaska. Not if I fall overboard but if I hit something and the boat start to sink. we can put them on. Hopefully someone close will be on the way when the mayday goes out.When I get my BS36 in the water I will have the suits on board as long as I am sailing in Arctic waters. Not that I should ever need one.Survival Suits / Immersion Suits for cold water survivalSurvival Suits / Immersion Suits for cold water survivalChoose your Survival Suit / Immersion Suit for cold water arctic conditionsAaron On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 11:52:44 AM AKDT, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Is it possible that someone might fall off a Swain boat for a few minutes ?  No suit that I have seen has been rated for days, though if the water temperature is a relatively warm like 15C, perhaps the polar suits will keep a person going for days.   But who wears their Polar suit on a sunny day off Northern California ?  Who even has a polar suit there? SOLAS standards: http://www.oshsi.nl.ca/userfiles/files/P00074.pdf Immersion Suit Systems - oshsi.nl.ca www.oshsi.nl.ca NATIONAL STANDARD OF CANADA CAN/CGSB-65.16-2005 Supersedes CAN/CGSB-65.16-99 IMMERSION SUIT SYSTEMS Prepared by the Approved by the Canadian General Standards Board ... For Canada are 6 hours survival time in 0C to 2C water, where the definition of survival is core body temperature does not drop below 35C, extremity body temperature never to drop below 10C. That is survival time, not conscious time and not "capable of doing things" time.  Even after one survives for 6 hours and is pulled out, post-exposure collapse of bodily functions is still possible and medical attention may be required.   There are "polar" rated suits for any temperature of liquid sea water (which might be as low as -4C) some are rated for 25 hours -- no guarantee what state one would be in after 25 hours.  As with cold weather gear for use inland, there are options to don layers -- diver's thermal underwear, then a dry suit, then the survival suit, and this can provide a longer duration, but, one would really have to be planning their immersion ahead of time to do that.  Perhaps with the best of everything and as many layers as one could stand, one might survive for 2 days.  For the small cruiser, I see the survival suit more for extending one's useful time to save oneself.  In regular clothing one has a very small number of useful minutes, perhaps as little as 2 minutes if the water is near freezing, after that one is useless, not thinking clearly, lacking strength and must be lifted out by someone else.   With a survival suit, I hope that would be 30+ minutes of completely lucid, full strength time to get out of the water and expect not to require medical attention after getting out.      Taking one's survival suit to a shallow beach at a freshwater lake in the fall and trying it is worth it to appreciate what it provides.  Because water transfers heat out about 25 times faster than air at the same temperature, it really does not take long laying in the water to appreciate, the suit is not going to keep the cold of the water away near-indefinitely in the same way that dry winter clothes do in cold air.   The body will loose this race, one just has more time. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 1:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Prioritizing gear     I have never heard of a Swain boat sinking.   Interesting to know that there is actually a suit that can save you for days if you end up in the water. | 34954|34605|2018-03-25 16:53:20|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I have always had far less corrosion  with non magnetic SS.The magnet trick does not determine alloy.  It determines if a particular section of a part is magnetic.  Brent is right, there is some correlation between magnetism and a particular alloy being less stainless.  But with sinks a non magnetic alloy may be stamped and stressed and sections will become magnetic.   Check your double kitchen sink in different places and you will find various levels of magnetism.   A non magnetic part may be the same alloy, just it was post processed to recover raw properties. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, March 24, 20:57 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I was once given a bit of 400 series magnetic stainless for my wood stove.It rusted thru in 30 years,  while the 316 next to it was in perfect  condition. That is why, when you go to a scrapyard to  buy your stainless galley sink,you should  take along a magnet. The magnetic ones corrode in the tropics, but not the non magnetic ones  .Ditto strainers, pots . spoons and forks. Made in Asia pots spoons and forks are all magnetic and will rust .Made in India stuff is non magnetic, and wont rust. I haven't been able to find a non magnetic table knife.May have to make my own. The new are earth magnets in hardware stores are a lot more powerful, and effective. | 34955|34605|2018-03-25 16:59:58|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I recently found a dry suit in new condition, in a thrift store, for a friend.It had three price tags on.one said $450,another said $95. The sale price tag on the front said $9.99.It fit her like it was custom made, and can be sailed in in rough conditions.As some have been learning the hard way the only safe place for a safety harness tether attachment is the top of the shoulder.I have never heard of a Swain boat sinking.   Interesting to know that there is actually a suit that can save you for days if you end up in the water.| 34956|34605|2018-03-25 17:03:24|brentswain38|Re: Prioritizing gear|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1424059648 #ygrps-yiv-1424059648ygrps-yiv-1652644706 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}3ft high solid lifelines and 2 ft wide side decks drastically reduce the odds of that happening, altho it  is always a risk.| 34957|34605|2018-03-25 18:10:08|rockrothwell|Re: dry exhaust details|I thought that as long as you are totally anal about the separation of grinding  & zip disks you'd not have any cross contamination .But the same is true of stainless steel hand and wire wheel brushes??| 34958|34605|2018-03-25 18:20:45|Aaron|Re: dry exhaust details|Absolutely true with wire brushes On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 2:10:13 PM AKDT, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I thought that as long as you are totally anal about the separation of grinding  & zip disks you'd not have any cross contamination .But the same is true of stainless steel hand and wire wheel brushes?? | 34959|34605|2018-03-25 23:27:46|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Matt, I think this is the same rabbit hole that had me doing electrocleaning of the welds.  From what has been shared here, my own experience and a bit more research, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the discussion around the weld effected zone and other transformations of stainless has more to do with grades other than 316.  I think where I went off course and why others have different experiences is that 316 is a lot better than the other commonly available grades.  It looks to me like post-weld treatment matters a fair bit with commonly used 304 and other lesser grades, whereas the folks here who are careful just to use 316 are able to get away with much less in terms of post weld treatment.  I'm going to touch up my pulpit and pushpit with a scotch brite pad and some barkeepers friend.  It is fast and simple and has the advantage of removing any free iron from other tools and such.  If it doesn't work, then I will once again head down the rabbit hole. Thanks Matt and everyone else for the discussion, Darren On 18-03-24 10:34 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Hi Darren, Can you get the magnet to feel any attraction near the welds?   Separately, if you take a hand compass and pass it close to the welds, does the needle twitch?    The "stainless" result in certain alloys of metals is a delicate result of a lot of things, uniformity is important, and no residual stress and uniform heating and cooling can be among those things too.   A stress induced by the weld or the heat gradient in the heat affected zone may be making it not stainless locally, even though the alloy is unchanged.    If one does find some noticeable effect with either the magnet or the compass needle, one might do an experiment with stainless scrap.   Weld it in the same way, test it with the magnet and compass, see that you get the same results, then try heating it gently and widely with an oxy-acetylene torch. The goal is a smooth temperature profile, with a hot zone at least an inch on either side of the weld and see what the magnet and compass say after it is allowed to air cool.   If it is stress or the the result of the sharp heat gradient in the weld's heat affected zone, then either the problem will be way wider (in the scrap piece) and less severe, or, relatively, gone. Or you could just clean it and either wax it or clear-coat the area.   It works on cars to make not-a- all-stainless steel into relatively rust free steel.   It should work on a little section of stainless to bump it up to being stainless again.   Or you could use the electro polish method, but it seems that an oxy-acetylene torch applied gently is taking it back to when the stainless tube was made in the first place.   Matt | 34960|34605|2018-03-25 23:32:20|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Thanks for this reminder, with an aluminum boat I keep three separate sets of brushes/discs for aluminum, stainless and plain steel.  However, it is a good point, I have no idea what the previous owner might have done to those welds.  If anyone else has the same problem, my understanding is that you need to remove the free iron on the surface to stop further corrosion.  A scotch brite pad alone might do this.  Just as easy is to add some Barkeeper's Friend (oxalic acid) while you scrub. Thanks for the help, Darren On 18-03-24 12:36 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote:   A carbon steel hand brush or wire wheel will cause rust to form on any grade of stainless steel or duplex.  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Stephen Wandling swandling@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I commonly had rust in 316 welds before I was informed I was causing it by using grinding, cutting disks, and especially lap disks, that had previously been used on mild steel. | 34961|34605|2018-03-25 23:57:25|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| I think this is a bit of a go, no-go test Matt.  If you find stainless that is completely non-magnetic, it is most likely 316 and is as good as your going to do for available stainless.  However, you may find some "good" stainless that has some weak magnetism.  I have a bit of 316 stainless pipe that is completely non-magnetic along its sides, however if you attach a very strong rare-earth-magnet to the end of cut piece you can just barely get it to stick without falling off.  This is a magnet that is powerful enough that it takes a bit of effort to pry off of a piece of mild steel.  This same magnet will stick to 304 in most orientations, although some bits of 304 are less magnetic than others. So, if you find some scrap (or a sink, or utensils) and the magnet will not stick to it, you are probably good to go.  If it sticks in some places, but not others, you may be OK as long it as it is a bend, end, or some other stressed bit.  If it is a weld, it is harder to tell.  It could be the weld is OK, or that less corrosion resistant filler was used.  For low-tech, it seems the best you can do with stainless is to use a magnet, if it sticks with any real tenacity you are likely to get rust.  If it mostly won't stick to the part, except at some junctions, then it is probably 316 and you are probably OK.  If it sticks weakly to the part in all sorts of positions then you probably have 304 and it is prone to corrosion in a chloride rich (seawater) environment.  The price of Nickel (for 304 and 316) and even more so Molybdenum (316), means that there is a lot of stainless out there right now that won't do much for what we oceanic folk would like to do.  Thankfully, the common alloys with low nickel and without molybdenum are highly magnetic, even compared to 304. For those who haven't tried this, as Brent has mentioned, you need fairly strong magnets to make it easy to differentiate between 316 and 304.  Here is an example of some.  Don't store them near your credit card or compass. Darren On 18-03-24 06:16 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The magnet trick does not determine alloy.  It determines if a particular section of a part is magnetic.  Brent is right, there is some correlation between magnetism and a particular alloy being less stainless.  But with sinks a non magnetic alloy may be stamped and stressed and sections will become magnetic.   Check your double kitchen sink in different places and you will find various levels of magnetism.   A non magnetic part may be the same alloy, just it was post processed to recover raw properties. Matt | 34962|34605|2018-03-26 08:36:40|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| Excellent summary so far Darren, use a good magnet a lot and think about where you put it on a part and you may be able to tell 316 from 304, most of the time.   Preferring 316 will lead to less corrosion in a marine environment.  But then there is 2205, which is better than 316 but will be rejected quickly if one uses a magnet. http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ So the magnet and some thinking will result in preferring 316 over 304.  That is as far as a magnet can get you. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 23:57 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   I think this is a bit of a go, no-go test Matt.  If you find stainless that is completely non-magnetic, it is most likely 316 and is as good as your going to do for available stainless.  However, you may find some "good" stainless that has some weak magnetism.  I have a bit of 316 stainless pipe that is completely non-magnetic along its sides, however if you attach a very strong rare-earth-magnet to the end of cut piece you can just barely get it to stick without falling off.  This is a magnet that is powerful enough that it takes a bit of effort to pry off of a piece of mild steel.  This same magnet will stick to 304 in most orientations, although some bits of 304 are less magnetic than others. So, if you find some scrap (or a sink, or utensils) and the magnet will not stick to it, you are probably good to go.  If it sticks in some places, but not others, you may be OK as long it as it is a bend, end, or some other stressed bit.  If it is a weld, it is harder to tell.  It could be the weld is OK, or that less corrosion resistant filler was used.  For low-tech, it seems the best you can do with stainless is to use a magnet, if it sticks with any real tenacity you are likely to get rust.  If it mostly won't stick to the part, except at some junctions, then it is probably 316 and you are probably OK.  If it sticks weakly to the part in all sorts of positions then you probably have 304 and it is prone to corrosion in a chloride rich (seawater) environment.  The price of Nickel (for 304 and 316) and even more so Molybdenum (316), means that there is a lot of stainless out there right now that won't do much for what we oceanic folk would like to do.  Thankfully, the common alloys with low nickel and without molybdenum are highly magnetic, even compared to 304. For those who haven't tried this, as Brent has mentioned, you need fairly strong magnets to make it easy to differentiate between 316 and 304.  Here is an example of some.  Don't store them near your credit card or compass. Darren On 18-03-24 06:16 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   The magnet trick does not determine alloy.  It determines if a particular section of a part is magnetic.  Brent is right, there is some correlation between magnetism and a particular alloy being less stainless.  But with sinks a non magnetic alloy may be stamped and stressed and sections will become magnetic.   Check your double kitchen sink in different places and you will find various levels of magnetism.   A non magnetic part may be the same alloy, just it was post processed to recover raw properties. Matt | 34963|34605|2018-03-26 11:38:34|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Agreed, but I don't think we're likely ton encounter 2205.  I think that with the grades we are likely to encounter, a magnet is about is good as you are going to do.  Here is a link to the grades available from Alaskan Copper, which is a pretty big supplier that happens to be near my house.  They don't sell anything fancy like 2205.  I think if you were looking at pipe, bar or plate in the scrap yard, or sinks in a big box store, you aren't going to find 2205. On 18-03-26 05:36 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Excellent summary so far Darren, use a good magnet a lot and think about where you put it on a part and you may be able to tell 316 from 304, most of the time.   Preferring 316 will lead to less corrosion in a marine environment.  But then there is 2205, which is better than 316 but will be rejected quickly if one uses a magnet. http://www.australwright.com.au/stainless-steel-magnetism-corrosion-resistance/ So the magnet and some thinking will result in preferring 316 over 304.  That is as far as a magnet can get you. Matt | 34964|34605|2018-03-26 12:06:38|ANDREW AIREY|Re: dry exhaust details|I've not come across 302 stainless before.When I had a machine shop 303 was the basic,reasonably machineable stuff with 316 for food grade work. My brother,who used to sell the stuff,had a fund of horror stories about stainless steels in salt water. A friend who wholesales and retails hydraulic couplings and fittings says that the chinese are ridiculously competitive on stainless fittings but not on the ordinary leaded mild items,which doesn't really make sense.I suppose that if you keep the stuff out of the water then it should be okcheersAndy Airey| 34965|34922|2018-03-26 12:25:20|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|I listed my boat on sailboat listings today. Once again, I am open to offers. I know this price seems high, but make an offer. I really just want to see it completed. 80% of the welding is complete, and almost everything is here to complete the boat, including mast, engine, and 9 gallons of Wasser Coal Tar.http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/71663| 34966|34605|2018-03-26 16:23:35|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|If I let it rust a bit , so it will disolve easily in acid, then wash it with acid, to eliminate the rust, then fresh water, it seems to give no further problems.Something other than hydrochloric acid works  best.| 34967|34922|2018-03-26 16:47:30|brentswain38|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|Tell any critics to go get  a quote on a new build, from commercial builders, with  all new material, to that stage.That should clarify things a bit.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I listed my boat on sailboat listings today. Once again, I am open to offers. I know this price seems high, but make an offer. I really just want to see it completed. 80% of the welding is complete, and almost everything is here to complete the boat, including mast, engine, and 9 gallons of Wasser Coal Tar.http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/71663| 34968|34922|2018-03-26 16:57:01|Aaron|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|US steel prices just went up 25%Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:47 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Tell any critics to go get  a quote on a new build, from commercial builders, with  all new material, to that stage.That should clarify things a bit.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I listed my boat on sailboat listings today. Once again, I am open to offers. I know this price seems high, but make an offer. 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#ygrps-yiv-744567540 #ygrps-yiv-744567540yiv9652116316 #ygrps-yiv-744567540yiv9652116316ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-744567540 #ygrps-yiv-744567540yiv9652116316 #ygrps-yiv-744567540yiv9652116316ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-744567540 | 34969|34922|2018-03-27 17:09:01|bilgekeeldave|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|I built a 250 ft floating dock out of 3x4x 1/4" aluminum last year. The cheapest aluminum I could find was U.S. made and believe me, I shopped.| 34970|34970|2018-03-28 17:59:32|thomas lee|Dry exhaust details|                " Amigos"         Ran a 20ft crab boat for 8yrs/w&s-good money without the snakes      -had a battery blow up on me -luckily wearing glasses and full skins     -my right hand was 2ft away from the battery as I withdrew away from       a terminal fire-my arm was completely numb up to the elbow but still      intact-wouldn't have a gas battery or propane for all the tea in China| 34971|34970|2018-03-28 18:20:14|thomas lee|Fw: Re:Dry exhaust details| ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: thomas lee To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 2:53:34 PM PDTSubject: Re:Dry exhaust details                 " Amigos"         Ran a 20ft crab boat for 8yrs/w&s-good money without the snakes      -had a battery blow up on me -luckily wearing glasses and full skins     -my right hand was 2ft away from the battery as I withdrew away from       a terminal fire-my arm was completely numb up to the elbow but still      intact-wouldn't have a gas battery or propane for all the tea in China | 34972|34922|2018-03-29 17:06:46|brentswain38|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :So much for the theory that other countries are dumping metal in the  US!Puts the lie to that myth!I built a 250 ft floating dock out of 3x4x 1/4" aluminum last year. The cheapest aluminum I could find was U.S. made and believe me, I shopped.| 34973|34973|2018-03-29 17:20:37|brentswain38|Low cost priorities|On other sites, people have posted pictures of expensive, elaborate interiors, which obviously have not been lived in for long, if ever, along with the suggestion that, that  is what my interior "should" look like.I say "Go ahead .If it is that important to you, then you are welcome to come and rebuild my interior for me. Bring your own tools and materials and,oh ya, your own money. "You say I should provide that? Why should I waste my money and cruising time on someone else's priorities? I have noticed that those who do so,  get a lot less playtime, and a lot more " tied to the dock and working ",time, having volunteered as slaves to someone else's priorities.For what?To be judged "Fashionably  crazy".Sounds like  'Consumerism "which is defined as "working like  a slave, to spend money you don't have, to buy things you don't need to impress people you don't like." I'd rather spend my freedom chips on cruising and play time, which is what I thought it was all about.("Oh my ,he is a Bolshevik." I can almost hear them saying )Friends who built their interiors with all new material, then went cruising, have said "Next time, I would use salvaged material, and spend the difference in cost on cruising priorities." Reply Delete Reply to this message...See more posts from brentswain38| 34974|34974|2018-04-01 10:54:54|gerard.laverty|27' BS Wyvern|Hi Brent, there is a 27' called Wyvern, built by Dean Sevold for sale. Are you familiar with it, how the inside of the hull was coated etc.Thanks,Gerard.| 34975|34974|2018-04-01 18:34:57|brentswain38|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am unaware of that boat.Where was it built? Where is "down here" at?Any pictures?Hi Brent, there is a 27' called Wyvern, built by Dean Sevold for sale. Are you familiar with it, how the inside of the hull was coated etc.Thanks,Gerard.| 34976|34974|2018-04-02 19:20:34|a.sobriquet|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/62972---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am unaware of that boat.Where was it built? Where is "down here" at?Any pictures?| 34977|34974|2018-04-02 19:30:40|Matt Malone|Re: 27' BS Wyvern| That is a nice boat.  Trailerable too. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 7:20:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 27' BS Wyvern     http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/62972 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I am unaware of that boat.Where was it built? Where is "down here" at? Any pictures? | 34978|34974|2018-04-02 19:54:20|opuspaul|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|Are those full length chines I see?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : That is a nice boat.  Trailerable too. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 7:20:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 27' BS Wyvern  http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/62972 ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am unaware of that boat.Where was it built? Where is "down here" at? 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{font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-143907833 #ygrps-yiv-143907833ygrps-yiv-830147704 #ygrps-yiv-143907833ygrps-yiv-830147704ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-143907833 #ygrps-yiv-143907833ygrps-yiv-830147704 #ygrps-yiv-143907833ygrps-yiv-830147704ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-143907833 #ygrps-yiv-143907833ygrps-yiv-830147704 #ygrps-yiv-143907833ygrps-yiv-830147704ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 34979|34974|2018-04-03 16:22:45|hsfphpaodjlss3coyclzr6p6wydv72p4dfwainml|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|It’s on Saltspring. I had not noticed the full chine. I guess it’s a modified BS. Does anyone know the builder?Dean Sevold.If I look at it next weekend where should I be looking for trouble?Thanks, Gerard| 34980|34974|2018-04-04 00:24:49|brentswain38|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Yes, on the first one, I did full length chines. I thought that was the first  origami boat I built, but I may be mistaken. The beam lets you trailer it anywhere, Sea of Cortes,  Florida, etc ,and still  cross oceans at the end of the road trip . One has cruised to Australia ( Brisbane) and is still there, as far  as I know. It is the same basic design as the one Winston sailed thru the NW Passage,but with twin keels. Great boat, balances beautifully and sails well. Takes  Soling mainsail, which are plentiful. Looks extremely well equipped, and maintained.What you should look for on any steel  boat is enough epoxy inside, under the foam,and in the bilges. No foam in the bilges.That would be a big mistake. wrote :It’s on Saltspring. I had not noticed the full chine. I guess it’s a modified BS. Does anyone know the builder?Dean Sevold.If I look at it next weekend where should I be looking for trouble?Thanks, Gerard| 34981|34974|2018-04-04 01:25:23|gerard.laverty|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|Thanks Brent. I read the account of the trip through the Passage many years ago while living in P.G. Made me a fan right there and then. Fingers crossed that it's as good as it looks.Gerard.| 34982|34974|2018-04-04 08:49:20|rockrothwell|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|She's owned  by a guy named Phil on Saltspring.Very solid. Very. Newly repowered.. has a trailer. Was asking $19k plus 4k for the trailer.I also asked about painting systems used and Phil said the bigger the hype and the higher the price the greater the dissapointment in results.Recommended tremclad. I saw NO rust.The most capable pocket rocket I've ever seen,but if you are taller than about 5' 6" its gonna be painful.Exellent value otherwise.| 34983|34974|2018-04-06 00:08:41|gerard.laverty|Re: 27' BS Wyvern|Thanks for checking on it for me. I was hoping to look at it this weekend but he has changed his mind about selling it for now.Gerard.| 34984|34984|2018-04-06 17:12:24|aguysailing|3 Way rocker switch|I have a single 3 prong SeaDog mini rocker illuminated switch which I want to attach to a 12v computer fan for my airhead toilet.   The fan has a pos and neg wire.   Power source is of course the pos/neg wires of the boat.  Switch diagram says 1) Ground for light...     2) Individual Circuit.... 3) +12Volt battery.    That makes 4 wires (fan pos/neg and boat pos/neg) for a 3 pronged switch.   Seems to me there is a wire left out.... anyone know how to wire this plug?| 34985|34984|2018-04-06 17:40:59|Matt Malone|Re: 3 Way rocker switch| Assuming your boat/engine block/alternator is negative-ground:  That switch cannot be fully utilized on a positive ground boat or you risk the fan running if a wire shorts to the hull.  Further on a negative hull boat, switching that switch off (if it is placed in the positive wire so the light works), will not prevent current flow and the fuse blowing if the negative wire shorts to the hull and will not stop the fan if the positive wire shorts to the hull.   You are stringing a two-wire cable from the area of the fuse block/power distribution block to the area of the switch to the area of the fan -- this cable will be assumed to have a black and a red wire. One end of the black wire attaches to the negative on the battery/fuse panel/power distribution block.   The other end of the black wire attaches to the negative for the fan.   At the switch, you have to tap into the black wire and attach it to 1-terminal on the switch.  This is just so the illumination of the switch can flow current from positive to negative and light.  Usually, switches have no connection to the negative in a negative-ground system. One end of the red wire connects to a fused positive on the back of the fuse panel / or a fused power distribution block -- never connect a wire directly to the positive of the battery, it is a serious fire hazard.  Yes, I know alternator and starter wires connect directly to the positive of a battery.  They are fire hazards.  Keep them short, well secured, and in excellent condition.  Check them carefully as part of your regular preventative maintenance to make sure nothing is abrading them, they are not loose or frayed, or, you guessed it, you can have a fire.   The other end of the red wire attaches to the positive for the fan -- the fan should be running now, if the fuse is in/reset is turned on.  If the fan is not running, check with a voltmeter to see there is power where the red wire attaches, etc, to find where the power is not present.    Now that the fan is running, temporarily remove the fuse or turn off the reset so the fan stops.   Verify it stopped.   Go to the area of the switch, and without shorting your cutters to boat (yes, there should be no power there now, but, better to be careful than sorry), cut the red wire.   The end closer to the battery attaches to terminal 3 of the switch, and the end closer to the fan attaches to terminal 2.   Replace the fuse or turn on the reset and verify the fan works when switched on, and the switch is properly illuminated.   Seal all your connections, and you are done.  Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 5:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] 3 Way rocker switch     I have a single 3 prong SeaDog mini rocker illuminated switch which I want to attach to a 12v computer fan for my airhead toilet.   The fan has a pos and neg wire.   Power source is of course the pos/neg wires of the boat.  Switch diagram says 1) Ground for light...     2) Individual Circuit.... 3) +12Volt battery.    That makes 4 wires (fan pos/neg and boat pos/neg) for a 3 pronged switch.   Seems to me there is a wire left out.... anyone know how to wire this plug? | 34986|34984|2018-04-06 17:49:59|Matt Malone|Re: 3 Way rocker switch| CORRECTION Assuming your boat/engine block/alternator is negative-ground:  (That switch cannot be fully utilized on a positive ground boat or you risk the fan running if a wire shorts to the hull.  Further on a POSITIVE hull boat, switching that switch off (if it is placed in the positive wire so the light works), will not prevent current flow and the fuse blowing if the negative wire shorts to the hull and will not stop the fan if the positive wire shorts to the hull.)  You are stringing a two-wire cable from the area of the fuse block/power distribution block to the area of the switch to the area of the fan -- this cable will be assumed to have a black and a red wire. One end of the black wire attaches to the negative on the battery/fuse panel/power distribution block.   The other end of the black wire attaches to the negative for the fan.   At the switch, you have to tap into the black wire and attach it to 1-terminal on the switch.  This is just so the illumination of the switch can flow current from positive to negative and light.  Usually, switches have no connection to the negative in a negative-ground system. One end of the red wire connects to a fused positive on the back of the fuse panel / or a fused power distribution block -- never connect a wire directly to the positive of the battery, it is a serious fire hazard.  Yes, I know alternator and starter wires connect directly to the positive of a battery.  They are fire hazards.  Keep them short, well secured, and in excellent condition.  Check them carefully as part of your regular preventative maintenance to make sure nothing is abrading them, they are not loose or frayed, or, you guessed it, you can have a fire.   The other end of the red wire attaches to the positive for the fan -- the fan should be running now, if the fuse is in/reset is turned on.  If the fan is not running, check with a voltmeter to see there is power where the red wire attaches, etc, to find where the power is not present.    Now that the fan is running, temporarily remove the fuse or turn off the reset so the fan stops.   Verify it stopped.   Go to the area of the switch, and without shorting your cutters to boat (yes, there should be no power there now, but, better to be careful than sorry), cut the red wire.   The end closer to the battery attaches to terminal 3 of the switch, and the end closer to the fan attaches to terminal 2.   Replace the fuse or turn on the reset and verify the fan works when switched on, and the switch is properly illuminated.   Seal all your connections, and you are done.  Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 5:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 3 Way rocker switch     Assuming your boat/engine block/alternator is negative-ground:  That switch cannot be fully utilized on a positive ground boat or you risk the fan running if a wire shorts to the hull.  Further on a negative hull boat, switching that switch off (if it is placed in the positive wire so the light works), will not prevent current flow and the fuse blowing if the negative wire shorts to the hull and will not stop the fan if the positive wire shorts to the hull.   You are stringing a two-wire cable from the area of the fuse block/power distribution block to the area of the switch to the area of the fan -- this cable will be assumed to have a black and a red wire. One end of the black wire attaches to the negative on the battery/fuse panel/power distribution block.   The other end of the black wire attaches to the negative for the fan.   At the switch, you have to tap into the black wire and attach it to 1-terminal on the switch.  This is just so the illumination of the switch can flow current from positive to negative and light.  Usually, switches have no connection to the negative in a negative-ground system. One end of the red wire connects to a fused positive on the back of the fuse panel / or a fused power distribution block -- never connect a wire directly to the positive of the battery, it is a serious fire hazard.  Yes, I know alternator and starter wires connect directly to the positive of a battery.  They are fire hazards.  Keep them short, well secured, and in excellent condition.  Check them carefully as part of your regular preventative maintenance to make sure nothing is abrading them, they are not loose or frayed, or, you guessed it, you can have a fire.   The other end of the red wire attaches to the positive for the fan -- the fan should be running now, if the fuse is in/reset is turned on.  If the fan is not running, check with a voltmeter to see there is power where the red wire attaches, etc, to find where the power is not present.    Now that the fan is running, temporarily remove the fuse or turn off the reset so the fan stops.   Verify it stopped.   Go to the area of the switch, and without shorting your cutters to boat (yes, there should be no power there now, but, better to be careful than sorry), cut the red wire.   The end closer to the battery attaches to terminal 3 of the switch, and the end closer to the fan attaches to terminal 2.   Replace the fuse or turn on the reset and verify the fan works when switched on, and the switch is properly illuminated.   Seal all your connections, and you are done.  Matt   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 5:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] 3 Way rocker switch     I have a single 3 prong SeaDog mini rocker illuminated switch which I want to attach to a 12v computer fan for my airhead toilet.   The fan has a pos and neg wire.   Power source is of course the pos/neg wires of the boat.  Switch diagram says 1) Ground for light...     2) Individual Circuit.... 3) +12Volt battery.    That makes 4 wires (fan pos/neg and boat pos/neg) for a 3 pronged switch.   Seems to me there is a wire left out.... anyone know how to wire this plug? | 34987|34922|2018-04-08 18:16:39|brentswain38|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|In his 20's Stephen Hawking was given 2 years to live, by doctors. He just died recently , lived a lot longer than 2 years.My grandfather  was in a car accident, and was paralized from the waist down.Doctors gave him 2 years to live .He lived for several more decades.Don't believe everything doctors tell you. They have been up to 40% wrong.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Greetings friends, After ongoing issues with carpal tunnel, tenosynovitis, and trigger finger in multiple digits, I'm departing with my dear project. Even if I teamed up with people and finished it, I can no longer sail displacement sailboats without having inflammatory flair ups.  I started in the fall of 2014. You can see Star Route in the photos section under the album BS 31' Star Route. Almost all of the welding is completed. The boat was sandblasted by a professional, and coated with Wasser weld thru zinc primer, two coats, immediately after sandblasting. Bilt in a freshwater, salt-less environment.$30,000or make an offer, or trade+money, etc etc. but please, be reasonable. I can't give it away. I literally spent almost everyday for three years on this, plus 5 years planning beforehand.I know this it's a crapshoot to estimate but I'd say if one was really motivated, they could have it in the water within a year.More photos here: https://marlinbuildsaboat.wordpress.com/Boat is located in Bayfield, WI.Almost everything is here to complete the boat: Engine - low hour working Yanmar 3hm35f (need to double check this)boatall steel to complete boat, including extra sheets/scraps of stainless2 35 pound CQR anchors1 35 pound bruce anchor1 danforth anchor1 folding rock anchor1 grappeling hookApprox 1/2 of the wood for the interior (walnut/maple)Cedar tongue and Groovegimbaled propane stove top2 propane tanksall wiring and electrical (including isolators, switchboard, etc)radioradarSSB Radiowind generator + extra wind genny for parts (ampair 100 watt)Composting toiletspeakersprop shaftchain and rode x2many extra linesfenderslead for keelextra primercoal tar epoxy (wasser)mastboomsailsblockshardwaremanual bilge pumpsgalley pumpsfuel tankodds and endsplus many things I'm forgetting | 34988|34984|2018-04-09 00:06:08|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Hey guys I found an Isuzu C221 with a velvet drive on it. It's a Susie putt together by klausen diesel. Runs real sweet oil pressure 60 psi once warmed, 80 psi revved up. It's set up for a 1.25" shaft which just works as my stern tube is 1.5" sched 40. What I'm concerned about is if it is a reasonable proposition to enlarge the prop aperture, up and down only into the deadwood and would also have to cut into the rudder to make it fit. The prop it was setup and running with is a huge at 21 x 17. Do not remember the size of the aperture at present but I think it's bout 18inch top to botm. It is 2.2 litres so a bit big.... too big? But it is such a lovely runner. Tight as a drum. Is this overkill?| 34989|34984|2018-04-09 08:48:28|Matt Malone|Re: Isizu C221| Probably about 70 hp.  I think the question is, if you put a prop on that was suitable to drive the boat at hull speed, using what maybe 30-35 hp peak.  Then what?   You cant make the boat go significantly faster with a bigger prop to put more horsepower to the water.  That is just wasting power and complicating life.  And you are dragging the larger prop through the water when sailing.# So I do not think the question is enlarging the prop window, the question is can you fit a big truck alternator into the engine space that could, at its peak, use 40 hp.  Then, what would you do with all the electricity -- a washing machine?   That is just an example of a hotel load that it might be practical to run the engine while running the load.  A commercial load might be a commercial ice maker, to make ice to sell.   A workshop?  You rarely use more that 1,500 watts at a time, and then only intermittently, that will not use that much power.   A gigantic electric bow thruster to make the boat dance on a dime?   Or a hybrid drive, with enough batteries for 20 minutes of silent running? Or to you just give the engine a nice retirement and never demand more than half horsepower from it?   Is that good for the engine? Or you could build a bigger boat.... Matt From: rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 9, 00:06 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Hey guys I found an Isuzu C221 with a velvet drive on it. It's a Susie putt together by klausen diesel. Runs real sweet oil pressure 60 psi once warmed, 80 psi revved up. It's set up for a 1.25" shaft which just works as my stern tube is 1.5" sched 40. What I'm concerned about is if it is a reasonable proposition to enlarge the prop aperture, up and down only into the deadwood and would also have to cut into the rudder to make it fit. The prop it was setup and running with is a huge at 21 x 17. Do not remember the size of the aperture at present but I think it's bout 18inch top to botm. It is 2.2 litres so a bit big.... too big? But it is such a lovely runner. Tight as a drum. Is this overkill? | 34990|34984|2018-04-09 10:47:53|prairiemaidca|Re: Isizu C221|I have the Isuzu 4LE1 at just over 50hp and it works great.  It is a little heavy, and definitely has more power than needed,  so if a C221 is even heavier I would be concerned about it making your stern low in the water.  I run a 2.71 reduction into a big Campbell sailor three blade and it pushes me along at hull speed at 2000rpm.  If I had a do over I would move my engine forward close to 12inches just to make getting at the rear of the gear easier.  We just spent the entire month of March on the water doing 415.5 NM and almost all of it was motoring (no Wind) and everything worked as it always does, just fine.   Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 34991|34984|2018-04-09 11:15:31|jpronk1|Re: Isizu C221|My Kubota V1903 has a capacity of 34HP at 2800RPM. It’s a 1.857 litre 4 cylinder can’t see the 2.2 litre being more then 50 hp?JamesSent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Probably about 70 hp.  I think the question is, if you put a prop on that was suitable to drive the boat at hull speed, using what maybe 30-35 hp peak.  Then what?   You cant make the boat go significantly faster with a bigger prop to put more horsepower to the water.  That is just wasting power and complicating life.  And you are dragging the larger prop through the water when sailing.# So I do not think the question is enlarging the prop window, the question is can you fit a big truck alternator into the engine space that could, at its peak, use 40 hp.  Then, what would you do with all the electricity -- a washing machine?   That is just an example of a hotel load that it might be practical to run the engine while running the load.  A commercial load might be a commercial ice maker, to make ice to sell.   A workshop?  You rarely use more that 1,500 watts at a time, and then only intermittently, that will not use that much power.   A gigantic electric bow thruster to make the boat dance on a dime?   Or a hybrid drive, with enough batteries for 20 minutes of silent running? Or to you just give the engine a nice retirement and never demand more than half horsepower from it?   Is that good for the engine? Or you could build a bigger boat.... Matt From: rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 9, 00:06 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Hey guys I found an Isuzu C221 with a velvet drive on it. It's a Susie putt together by klausen diesel. Runs real sweet oil pressure 60 psi once warmed, 80 psi revved up. It's set up for a 1.25" shaft which just works as my stern tube is 1.5" sched 40. What I'm concerned about is if it is a reasonable proposition to enlarge the prop aperture, up and down only into the deadwood and would also have to cut into the rudder to make it fit. The prop it was setup and running with is a huge at 21 x 17. Do not remember the size of the aperture at present but I think it's bout 18inch top to botm. It is 2.2 litres so a bit big.... too big? But it is such a lovely runner. Tight as a drum. Is this overkill? | 34992|34984|2018-04-09 11:16:49|Darren Bos|Re: Isizu C221| There are advantages to the larger prop.  It is more efficient than a smaller one, and if you get into a situation like towing or punching into steep waves and very high winds, the larger prop provides better thrust at low boat speed.  This still depends on proper gearing and matching the prop to the hull.  However, you pretty much need to have a folding or feathering prop in order to avoid adversely affecting sailng performance. As to whether or not this is appropriate for the boat (I think we are taking about a 36' Swain?), I'll let someone with more diesel experience answer.  It looks like this engine is the bored-out version that started as a 50hp engine.  Continuous duty engines are often the same block set up for lower hp than the intermediate duty engine.  However, in those cases I think there is more to it than just having the governer and fuel injection changed? On 18-04-09 05:48 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Probably about 70 hp.  I think the question is, if you put a prop on that was suitable to drive the boat at hull speed, using what maybe 30-35 hp peak.  Then what?   You cant make the boat go significantly faster with a bigger prop to put more horsepower to the water.  That is just wasting power and complicating life.  And you are dragging the larger prop through the water when sailing.# So I do not think the question is enlarging the prop window, the question is can you fit a big truck alternator into the engine space that could, at its peak, use 40 hp.  Then, what would you do with all the electricity -- a washing machine?   That is just an example of a hotel load that it might be practical to run the engine while running the load.  A commercial load might be a commercial ice maker, to make ice to sell.   A workshop?  You rarely use more that 1,500 watts at a time, and then only intermittently, that will not use that much power.   A gigantic electric bow thruster to make the boat dance on a dime?   Or a hybrid drive, with enough batteries for 20 minutes of silent running? Or to you just give the engine a nice retirement and never demand more than half horsepower from it?   Is that good for the engine? Or you could build a bigger boat.... Matt From: rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 9, 00:06 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Hey guys I found an Isuzu C221 with a velvet drive on it. It's a Susie putt together by klausen diesel. Runs real sweet oil pressure 60 psi once warmed, 80 psi revved up. It's set up for a 1.25" shaft which just works as my stern tube is 1.5" sched 40. What I'm concerned about is if it is a reasonable proposition to enlarge the prop aperture, up and down only into the deadwood and would also have to cut into the rudder to make it fit. The prop it was setup and running with is a huge at 21 x 17. Do not remember the size of the aperture at present but I think it's bout 18inch top to botm. It is 2.2 litres so a bit big.... too big? But it is such a lovely runner. Tight as a drum. Is this overkill? | 34993|34984|2018-04-09 11:27:20|jpronk1|Re: Isizu C221|The Isuzu C240 capacity is 41.8HP at 3000RPM. I can’t see the C221 being more then 40HP? I like the newer Velvet drives that are all cast iron and not an aluminum housing. James Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 9, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Isuzu C221 | 34994|34984|2018-04-09 16:38:48|opuspaul|Re: Isizu C221|My friends have an Isuzu C240 in their 45 footer.   You might want to read the following thread.   The C221 appears to be an older version of the C240?    I have an Isuzu 35 hp (3KR1) in my 36 footer.   I have always thought it is about right...not too big and not too small.   I would try to find something smaller rather than commit to an engine that is too large and possibly too old.http://www.isuzupup.com/viewtopic.php?t=14198---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The Isuzu C240 capacity is 41.8HP at 3000RPM. I can’t see the C221 being more then 40HP? I like the newer Velvet drives that are all cast iron and not an aluminum housing. James Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 9, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Isuzu C221 | 34995|34984|2018-04-09 17:12:58|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If it will fit , you can run it below its max RPM and HP, and it will run forever.Nice to have the extra when  bucking a head sea in Johnston Strait.Enlarging the aperture should be no problem.What is the reduction, and HP. Hey guys I found an Isuzu C221 with a velvet drive on it. It's a Susie putt together by klausen diesel. Runs real sweet oil pressure 60 psi once warmed, 80 psi revved up. It's set up for a 1.25" shaft which just works as my stern tube is 1.5" sched 40. What I'm concerned about is if it is a reasonable proposition to enlarge the prop aperture, up and down only into the deadwood and would also have to cut into the rudder to make it fit. The prop it was setup and running with is a huge at 21 x 17. Do not remember the size of the aperture at present but I think it's bout 18inch top to botm. It is 2.2 litres so a bit big.... too big? But it is such a lovely runner. Tight as a drum. Is this overkill?| 34996|34984|2018-04-09 17:22:45|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|Another  option is going for a smaller reduction, to get more out of  smaller prop. Not as efficient as slow with a big prop  ,but much better than slow with a small prop.Get it right, and you probably wouldn't notice the difference.| 34997|34984|2018-04-11 10:49:33|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Forgot to mention. Mechanic said it was 58 horse power.| 34998|34984|2018-04-12 09:46:06|Gordon Schnell|Re: Isizu C221|58 HP is ample! On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:42 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:Forgot to mention. Mechanic said it was 58 horse power.| 34999|34984|2018-04-12 11:19:45|Matt Malone|Re: Isizu C221| Test...  I responded 3 times over the last few days where the list did not send my response out over the mailing list or store it on the Yahoo Groups.  I am trying to diagnose the problem. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gordon Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 9:46 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221     58 HP is ample! On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:42 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Forgot to mention. Mechanic said it was 58 horse power. | 35000|34984|2018-04-12 11:24:13|Matt Malone|Re: Isizu C221| First, I did look up the engine horsepower, and the first link I found said 73 hp, and I posted based on that a few days ago -- that went through.   After the feedback on HP from everyone, I looked it up again, and all other references agree -- 58 hp.   So Shane had it right from the start, but my post of that did not go through. Secondly, I entirely forgot about other uses of horsepower other than speed and electricity....  Darren had a really good post that I answered... it never came through.   I am reposting as a test: Darren has a good point with towing -- double the engine and prop can pull two boats of the same size at hull speed, that is really useful.   Then there is motoring into a very strong wind. Then there is motoring into a wind while towing. Then there is rapidly recovering speed between waves when motoring into waves strong enough to stop forward motion of the boat over ground for a moment - the bigger prop will result in a higher acceleration and higher average speed over ground -- sort of like accelerating sharply between stop signs with a car -- it is the fastest way through a series of stop signs.   With a boat though, one can actually, net, be swept backwards if one does not have enough horsepower to accelerate between waves.   This might make the difference getting out of surf, or maintaining more control (water speed over the rudder) when crossing the bar into or out of a channel in heavier waves. Thanks Darren. It would also help in setting larger anchors. It would also help in the docking or dock departure maneuvers that involve vectoring the prop wash with the rudder to result in lateral forces at the stern to hold against or push away from the dock in an unfavourable wind situation. Thinking about what Darren said I am convinced that yes, a bigger engine and prop might come in very handy.   I would still put a truck alternator on it, and a bigger diesel tank and have happier passengers with capacity for greater hotel loads. Come to think about it, incredible high power lighting like a set of halogen car headlights pointed all around from the mast head, might also be something I might add, on an auxiliary switch, so that everyone in 20 miles knows where I am -- for crossing shipping lanes when they are not paying attention. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gordon Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 9:46 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221     58 HP is ample! On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:42 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Forgot to mention. Mechanic said it was 58 horse power. |