35001|34984|2018-04-12 11:40:55|mountain man|Re: Isizu C221| Matt, The same thing happened to me on the Wylo 2 group Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 12 avril 2018 11:19:43 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 Test... I responded 3 times over the last few days where the list did not send my response out over the mailing list or store it on the Yahoo Groups. I am trying to diagnose the problem. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gordon Schnell gschnell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 9:46 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 58 HP is ample! On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:42 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Forgot to mention. Mechanic said it was 58 horse power. | 35002|34984|2018-04-12 14:26:30|Darren Bos|Re: Isizu C221| Like all boat things it is a tradeoff.Â I was hoping with someone with more diesel experience than me would comment on how oversized you can go before you run into problems with the engine (extra weight aside).Â My understanding is that one of the common demises of marine diesel engines is carbon buildup on the piston rings which fouls them, causes a loss of compression and blow-by into the crankcase.Â I know enough to know that charging your batteries with the main engine while at anchor doesn't put enough load on the engine and creates this type of fouling.Â At some point an engine must be enough oversized that you run into the same problem motoring around at 5 or 6 knots, unless you add extra loads to the engine. It would seem like an oversized engine like this would be a natural match for something like the new Firefly carbon tech lead acid batteries or LiPO4 batteries that could accept really high charge rates from a massive alternator(s). On 18-04-12 08:24 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â First, I did look up the engine horsepower, and the first link I found said 73 hp, and I posted based on that a few days ago -- that went through. Â After the feedback on HP from everyone, I looked it up again, and all other references agree -- 58 hp. Â So Shane had it right from the start, but my post of that did not go through. Secondly, I entirely forgot about other uses of horsepower other than speed and electricity....Â Darren had a really good post that I answered... it never came through. Â I am reposting as a test: Darren has a good point with towing -- double the engine and prop can pull two boats of the same size at hull speed, that is really useful.Â Â Then there is motoring into a very strong wind. Then there is motoring into a wind while towing. Then there is rapidly recovering speed between waves when motoring into waves strong enough to stop forward motion of the boat over ground for a moment - the bigger prop will result in a higher acceleration and higher average speed over ground -- sort of like accelerating sharply between stop signs with a car -- it is the fastest way through a series of stop signs. Â With a boat though, one can actually, net, be swept backwards if one does not have enough horsepower to accelerate between waves.Â Â This might make the difference getting out of surf, or maintaining more control (water speed over the rudder) when crossing the bar into or out of a channel in heavier waves. Thanks Darren. It would also help in setting larger anchors. It would also help in the docking or dock departure maneuvers that involve vectoring the prop wash with the rudder to result in lateral forces at the stern to hold against or push away from the dock in an unfavourable wind situation. Thinking about what Darren said I am convinced that yes, a bigger engine and prop might come in very handy.Â Â I would still put a truck alternator on it, and a bigger diesel tank and have happier passengers with capacity for greater hotel loads. Come to think about it, incredible high power lighting like a set of halogen car headlights pointed all around from the mast head, might also be something I might add, on an auxiliary switch, so that everyone in 20 miles knows where I am -- for crossing shipping lanes when they are not paying attention. Matt | 35003|34984|2018-04-12 18:01:03|opuspaul|Re: Isizu C221|FWIW, I have had a post not make it through over the last few days.The problem of having a large engine is you need a large prop or you are just wasting horsepower. A large prop creates a huge amount of drag under sail unless you go to a fully feathering prop. These are extremely expensive and can be troublesome. I had a Gori folding prop and ended up getting rid of it. Maxprops are good but extremely expensive. I wouldn't want to hit a log with one. I have motored into large wind and waves many times with my 35 hp Isuzu 3KR1 which is about 1.4 liter displacement. I turn a small 14 x 10 2 blade prop with a 2 to 1 gearbox. The small prop and ratio isn't ideal for motoring but it gets me there with little drag under sail. I think a smaller engine like the smaller Isuzu 23 hp (2KR1) may not do what I want into a headsea without a struggle but the 35hp is enough, even when charging with a large alternator which can draw off 3 or 4 hp. Larger diesels are very heavy and take up a lot of room so can really screw up an interior. It is just my opinion but there is no way I would have a 58 or 70 hp diesel in a 36 foot boat unless it was a very good deal and I motored most of the time. As an aside, Vic Klassen (long gone now but who started Klassen Diesel) told me to ignore hp ratings and just go by displacement. This has always made sense to me since some of the manufacturers play with their numbers giving hp ratings at rpms the motors will never run. Diesels are often given hp ratings at a high rpm and then derated. Yanmar is great at this. You need to look at the torque curve and hp at the rpm you are going to be using and then compare engines for your application. Click the link below and you will see that the hp rating vary widely depending on their use. Nobody will run a boat diesel at 3500 rpm or higher so who cares what the hp is there? The max I have ever run my engine is about 2500 rpm. With my small prop and 2 to 1 gearbox, I normally cruise at about 2100. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Isuzu_enginesIsuzu 3KR1 is 1.4 liter and rated at about 30 hp at 2800 rpm when used in a boat. 150kg.Isuzu C240 is 2.4 liter and rated at about 50 hp at 3000 rpm but it varies. 220kg. Isuzu C221 is about the same size as the C249 but puts out more HP. Older?There were heaps of C240s put in boats. I believe it used Bosch fuel injection and the fishermen on the west coast loved them. I have never heard of C221s in boats but I am certainly no expert. I would talk to Klassen Diesel and see what they think before buying anything.| 35004|34984|2018-04-12 18:01:14|opuspaul|Re: Isizu C221|You are right. You need to load diesels up and really make them work. A lot of people screw up their engines by using them to charge batteries only. I know of one couple who totally screwed their engine by running it for hour after hour just so they could play video games. It blew black smoke everywhere and had no get up and go. Just crazy.....---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Like all boat things it is a tradeoff. I was hoping with someone with more diesel experience than me would comment on how oversized you can go before you run into problems with the engine (extra weight aside). My understanding is that one of the common demises of marine diesel engines is carbon buildup on the piston rings which fouls them, causes a loss of compression and blow-by into the crankcase. | 35005|34984|2018-04-12 18:27:05|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|You could drag most anchors for boat that size with that kind off HP, even if it has set properly.I remember heading into Dodd narrows one dark night, and encountering a fishboat coming thru, heading my way, with a super bright halogen flood light pointing right at my eyeballs, blinding me. I gave a blast of 2 million candle power spotlight at their eyeballs, and they got the message.| 35006|34984|2018-04-12 18:27:13|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Answered ass this yesterday but it seems the system dumped it..?Anyway, its a 58 hp naturally aspirated isuzu c221 with a borg warner velvet drive 2.9:1 reduction. Its 2.2 litresSort of flying by the seat of me pants and just bought it and brought it to the isuzu geek in Duncan.Really solid unit with mounts for the gearbox as well. Gearbox casing is cast iron. The wheel that it came with and it was set up for is 21 x 17 = huge.It is however rather older than i thought. Solid as can be but will not have all info for about a week. At this point biggest concern, altho it runs beaut, is the injectn pump. We will see.Also, Does anyone know a good transmission/gearbox mechanic I can get to give the gearbox a thourough going over.. Mid island area?| 35007|34984|2018-04-12 18:45:42|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|A diver I know, had problem starting hookah engine. A mechanic found he was running it on low speed, then shutting it down ,never reving it up.The mechanic said "When you have been running it for along time on low speed ,give it a blast of high speed, no load, until the exhaust smoke clears, before shutting it down." He started doing that, and had no further problems. I do that all the time.Tom Norhtcott, at a diesel course, was warned about not running his fishboat engine on low speed for too long. The teacher said "On a dark windy night with no one around rev her up, full speed, until the smoke clears. When he went back, fired it up and reved it all the way up, the marina was filled with smoke, until it cleared ,and she ran clean after that .| 35008|34984|2018-04-12 19:08:23|Matt Malone|Re: Isizu C221| Depends on the anchor whether you want to give only one good tug, or purposely pull it 5 feet so it really burrows in and buries itself. I was getting at, with extra horsepower, one has the tools to do it the best way for the anchor you choose, not to pull until the boat stops moving. Yes, really bright lights can be ignorant, that is why they would be on a switch -- there when you need them. I was out once and I heard a big speed boat coming at me at night, with no lights. I had proper lighting but I was close to shore, so, I was concerned the lights of houses, cottages and businesses might be confusing them. The boat stopped some distance away from me, maybe half a mile, and I lost its location when the engine shut down. A couple minutes later it started back up and I perceived it was coming straight at me at high speed -- I was in a converging bay that became a channel, so, no doubt they were going to pass very close in any case. Out came the 1/1.5 million candle-power spot light. First I illuminated my sails, then when there was no change in pitch on the engine after a couple of seconds, I hit the approaching boat. Why go that fast with no running lights at all? It seemed madness. As soon as the light hit them, they immediately pulled a wide circle around me careful not to get close enough for me to read the registration. Still no lights. The million / 2 million candle spotlight is a must in the cockpit. In my case, from the time the boat started up again, until the time he passed, it was maybe 35-40 seconds, not time to find a spot light in a locker when the other boat is going at least 45 knots, maybe 60. I swear his bow was so high out of the water, with no fly deck, he could not see any of my nav lights, only my masthead. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 You could drag most anchors for boat that size with that kind off HP, even if it has set properly. I remember heading into Dodd narrows one dark night, and encountering a fishboat coming thru, heading my way, with a super bright halogen flood light pointing right at my eyeballs, blinding me. I gave a blast of 2 million candle power spotlight at their eyeballs, and they got the message. | 35009|34984|2018-04-12 21:24:51|Brian Stannard|Re: Isizu C221|DarrenWhen sizing a propeller for an engine the ideal is one that allows max engine rpm but not more and not less. For a diesel you would typically cruise at about 80% of full rpm. This would apply to any engine - more horsepower and torque = larger pitch and/or diameter prop. As the engine horsepower increases you reach a point where there is not room for the propeller that it should match to - either in diameter or pitch.Â On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Like all boat things it is a tradeoff.Â I was hoping with someone with more diesel experience than me would comment on how oversized you can go before you run into problems with the engine (extra weight aside).Â My understanding is that one of the common demises of marine diesel engines is carbon buildup on the piston rings which fouls them, causes a loss of compression and blow-by into the crankcase.Â I know enough to know that charging your batteries with the main engine while at anchor doesn't put enough load on the engine and creates this type of fouling.Â At some point an engine must be enough oversized that you run into the same problem motoring around at 5 or 6 knots, unless you add extra loads to the engine. It would seem like an oversized engine like this would be a natural match for something like the new Firefly carbon tech lead acid batteries or LiPO4 batteries that could accept really high charge rates from a massive alternator(s). On 18-04-12 08:24 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â First, I did look up the engine horsepower, and the first link I found said 73 hp, and I posted based on that a few days ago -- that went through. Â After the feedback on HP from everyone, I looked it up again, and all other references agree -- 58 hp. Â So Shane had it right from the start, but my post of that did not go through. Secondly, I entirely forgot about other uses of horsepower other than speed and electricity....Â Darren had a really good post that I answered... it never came through. Â I am reposting as a test: Darren has a good point with towing -- double the engine and prop can pull two boats of the same size at hull speed, that is really useful.Â Â Then there is motoring into a very strong wind. Then there is motoring into a wind while towing. Then there is rapidly recovering speed between waves when motoring into waves strong enough to stop forward motion of the boat over ground for a moment - the bigger prop will result in a higher acceleration and higher average speed over ground -- sort of like accelerating sharply between stop signs with a car -- it is the fastest way through a series of stop signs. Â With a boat though, one can actually, net, be swept backwards if one does not have enough horsepower to accelerate between waves.Â Â This might make the difference getting out of surf, or maintaining more control (water speed over the rudder) when crossing the bar into or out of a channel in heavier waves. Thanks Darren. It would also help in setting larger anchors. It would also help in the docking or dock departure maneuvers that involve vectoring the prop wash with the rudder to result in lateral forces at the stern to hold against or push away from the dock in an unfavourable wind situation. Thinking about what Darren said I am convinced that yes, a bigger engine and prop might come in very handy.Â Â I would still put a truck alternator on it, and a bigger diesel tank and have happier passengers with capacity for greater hotel loads. Come to think about it, incredible high power lighting like a set of halogen car headlights pointed all around from the mast head, might also be something I might add, on an auxiliary switch, so that everyone in 20 miles knows where I am -- for crossing shipping lanes when they are not paying attention. Matt -- CheersBrian | 35010|34984|2018-04-12 22:26:41|bargemaster24|Re: Isizu C221| I live on a narrowboat and the argument that you should put a load on a diesel engine is a topic that comes up quiet often among boaters. The engine is made to take high loads but i fail to see why light loads would create problems. Whilst cruising the waterways the engine as to power the boat ,charge the batteries and provide hot water. While moored it is used to charge the batteries and heat water normally an hour each morning Some boaters put the boat in gear to load the engine but in my opinion the wash just erodes the bank. My own engine is a BMC 1500cc and is 50 odd years old ,In the sixties i worked on these engines as part of my apprenticeship .The dirty injectors can cause loss of power and produce black smoke. mikeafloat -----Original Message----- From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] To: origamiboats Sent: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:01 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 #ygrps-yiv-782125151 #ygrps-yiv-782125151AOLMsgPart_2_67d3aeb6-3364-4bd8-ac70-66faa544a79f td{color:black;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-row {clear:both;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-row div {float:left;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-file {width:30px;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody div.ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 #ygrps-yiv-782125151AOLMsgPart_2_67d3aeb6-3364-4bd8-ac70-66faa544a79f td{color:black;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ad p {margin:0;}#ygrps-yiv-782125151 .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-782125151aolmail_ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} You are right. You need to load diesels up and really make them work. A lot of people screw up their engines by using them to charge batteries only. I know of one couple who totally screwed their engine by running it for hour after hour just so they could play video games. It blew black smoke everywhere and had no get up and go. Just crazy..... ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Like all boat things it is a tradeoff. I was hoping with someone with more diesel experience than me would comment on how oversized you can go before you run into problems with the engine (extra weight aside). My understanding is that one of the common demises of marine diesel engines is carbon buildup on the piston rings which fouls them, causes a loss of compression and blow-by into the crankcase. | 35011|34984|2018-04-13 13:29:09|Darren Bos|Re: Isizu C221| I agree that you need to match the engine and prop for max engine rpm.Â However, if you set 80% of full rpm for cruising, then with a 50hp engine, you use roughly 40hp and you are running around at hull speed (7.3 knots for a Swain 36) all the time, with the accordingly high fuel consumption.Â Coming down about 1 knot in speed yields a large fuel savings.Â However, at 6 knots you'd only be using about 20hp.Â My question really was, at less than half the rated horsepower are you at risk of carbon build up on the rings?Â It seems that running at high load high rpm at least some of the time is important to prevent this. I tried to answer this question myself and came across this thesis, which was a good as info as I found anywhere.Â However, it looks like buildup on the rings and cylinders is not a straightforward process and there may not be an neat answer to just how low the load can go before you run into problems.Â The thesis is pretty dense, but Table 2-1 on page 16 really has most of the info. With 50hp in a 36 footer, it seems like one or several large alternators, along with an engine driven watermaker would be a good idea. Time to go finish welding up the exhaust for my boat, Darren On 18-04-12 06:24 PM, Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Darren When sizing a propeller for an engine the ideal is one that allows max engine rpm but not more and not less. For a diesel you would typically cruise at about 80% of full rpm.. This would apply to any engine - more horsepower and torque = larger pitch and/or diameter prop. As the engine horsepower increases you reach a point where there is not room for the propeller that it should match to - either in diameter or pitch.Â On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Like all boat things it is a tradeoff.Â I was hoping with someone with more diesel experience than me would comment on how oversized you can go before you run into problems with the engine (extra weight aside).Â My understanding is that one of the common demises of marine diesel engines is carbon buildup on the piston rings which fouls them, causes a loss of compression and blow-by into the crankcase.Â I know enough to know that charging your batteries with the main engine while at anchor doesn't put enough load on the engine and creates this type of fouling.Â At some point an engine must be enough oversized that you run into the same problem motoring around at 5 or 6 knots, unless you add extra loads to the engine. It would seem like an oversized engine like this would be a natural match for something like the new Firefly carbon tech lead acid batteries or LiPO4 batteries that could accept really high charge rates from a massive alternator(s). | 35012|34984|2018-04-13 14:51:47|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|If you can rev your engine up full throttle,then back it down slightly, and she slows down a bit, you are not over propped.If you have to throttle back a long way, before you hear her slow down ,you are definitely over propped, or over pitched.| 35013|34984|2018-04-13 15:55:26|opuspaul|Re: Isizu C221|The big problem as I understand it is really with the rings and cylinder glazing.http://www.fischerpanda.com.sg/uploads/4/3/5/6/43569463/carbon_build-up_and_cylinder_glazing.pdfhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine_problems#Internal_glazing_and_carbon_build-up| 35014|34984|2018-04-13 20:21:17|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Thank you everyone for pitching in. Exellent.The engine and gearbox I bought came with a 21 x 17 prop and is a ""Suzie" put together by klassen diesel.Now have it at the isuzu geek in duncan. It is rather long in the tooth, is going to be a pain in the ass to get it in, gonna bugger up the galley and heads. But the plan is to completely rebuild it.At the same time, even if it was in a commercial trawler, wot maybe 150 hours a year, for 20 year is inly 6,000 hr. They go for 30, hell, even if it was omly 15-18,ooo that still leaves min 9,000 hrs service left in it or about 15 year. I'll be dead by then.And yes I got it cheap, $2500 and got another few bucks into it.A complete rebuild of the engine would about another $4k.The geek is reseaching and will get back to me next week.But that does not include the gearbpx. Anyone knoe a good gearbox mechanic. It seems fine all but for the rear seal, but best to have it all checked out and put right now and not later| 35015|35015|2018-04-15 13:46:57|inter4905|Inflatable sail iws|inflatedwingsails.com/en/cAnyone heard about that?I wonder what it would do in a force 10!Martin| 35016|35015|2018-04-15 16:21:55|Matt Malone|Re: Inflatable sail iws| Martin, Those sails are really interesting, and entirely new dimension. The actual shape they take on can potentially be far better than "flat" sails. There are important differences between these and airplane wings and the differences might prevent them from achieving the efficiency of airfoil shapes on a more rigid structure. Still, if one is just try to do better than a sail, they might be what one is looking for. Inflated foil designs are great for paramotors and parachutes because their flight regime is narrow, resulting from a quickly-established equilibrium between forces. With a parachute, one's downward and forward speed quickly settle into an equilibrium, and barring heavy turbulence, remains in a similar flow condition until one lands. The foil remains inflated, and in a design shape, for the entire trip. The equivalent in sailing might be trade wind sailing where the wind varies little over the course of days. The net benefit gained with a good design might accumulate substantially over days of sailing making any added complication certainly worth it. Unfortunately, sailboats are more firmly rooted to the water than the air, and the air is fickle so an equilibrium between the sail and the wind might be more transitory. One can experience large changes in wind speed and direction. It is true a simple sail will luff back and forward and tighten sharply and cannot be counted on for performance during these transitions. Once a sail snaps to shape, its performance, as poor as it might be compared to a 2-surface foil, is realized more instantly. If the wind speed or direction change has at all deflated, or distorted the foil in a way that requires more time to re-establish shape, this is additional time that the full performance is not realized. The sails must have drip-holes / vents, or the inflated parts might stow water, making the sail progressively heavier in rain. These vents are how turbulence might partially collapse /change the foil shape. The obvious response to wet weather / strong and changeable wind would be to have a different design which would be smaller, and stiffer in the sense of, it would take a greater air disturbance to cause the same deformation of the foil and the same the same fractional performance loss. It is just a question of engineering and it might always be better than single surface-sails in raw numbers. At some level of strong weather, the sailor's shift in priorities from performance to simplicity might make them favour a simple sail, even if the 2-surface foil might still be better in some measure. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 1:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Inflatable sail iws inflatedwingsails.com/en/c Anyone heard about that? I wonder what it would do in a force 10! Martin | 35017|35015|2018-04-15 18:21:29|opuspaul|Re: Inflatable sail iws|I have never seen it but the junk rig guys experiment a lot and have tried just about anything. I bet they have discussed it on their groups. The retractable mast is the thing that seems to me to be the biggest risk for failure but there are few details about how it is done other than that it is in five sections and pneumatic. If the inflated pressure on the sail gives it strength and rigidity, how is there any strength or rigidity when it is deflated and lowered in heavy winds? Lowered down it looks like a floppy mess.I like how people experiment so don't want to criticize too much but I would give it ten years and see where they get with the concept :). I have never been much of a fan of traditional junk rigs but I really respect what David Tyler has done with them. He has experimented a lot while also doing heaps of miles offshore. Despite his success (the wing sail really improves performance) it still seems far too complex (and expensive) to me.http://www.junkrigassociation.org/resources/Documents/Hall%20of%20Fame/Hall%20of%20Fame%20-%20David%20Tyler.pdfhttps://avoid.rocks/blog/soft-wing-sails-evolutionary-leap-towards-sailing-bliss-part/---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :inflatedwingsails.com/en/cAnyone heard about that?I wonder what it would do in a force 10!Martin| 35018|34605|2018-04-15 23:59:59|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Thanks to everyone who gave advice about dry exhaust.Â I suspect my final result was more complicated than some would do, but there are few details of my boat that I thought justified the complexity.Â Given that I have an aluminum boat, I have to bolt the exhaust through-hull and rely on silicone to seal it, so I flexibly mounted the exhaust so that any expansion can work its way forward to the flex pipe rather than working at the bolts and silicone and maybe lead to a leak.Â My situation is also different from those with a rigidly mounted engine.Â I hated the noise from our old rigidly mounted engine, but the complexity of flexible motor mounts led me to include the flex pipe after the exhaust and to make sure the pipe-mounts could allow a little movement. Starting at the engine and moving backward, the first highlight is a bushing to check back-pressure at commissioning and then to house a pyrometer to keep an eye on exhaust temps when the boat is in use.Â This first section of exhaust is supported by a strut that leads to the transmission. Â After that, is the flex pipe, or bellows, that absorbs motor vibration and that can also compress to absorb the expanding exhaust as it heats up.Â I used V-clamps with interlocking male/female flanges to make the flex-pipe easy to replace should it fail.Â The inner liner of the flex pipe is super thin, even just my tacks were enough to melt it back and the whole thing required a bit of delicate welding.Â After the flex pipe is semi flexible silicone mounts to hold the exhaust in place, but also allow a little movement as it expands with heat.Â Â The green exhaust wrap between the pipe clamp and the pipe is to slow the movement of heat out of the muffler and into the mounts.Â I made the silicone bushings for the mounts with a simple mold.Â Adding 5% (by weight) cornstarch to the silicone helps it cure rapidly in the mold.Â The silicone bushings may also help cut down on vibration noise transmitted from the exhaust to the mounts.Â Aft, there is a loop upward almost to deck height.Â Before the loop is a resonator (small straight flow muffler with stainless steel packing).Â After the loop is a spiral muffler that I made.Â The exhaust enters from the top, goes around a sealed spiral 3.5 times and then exits out the bottom.Â Thus, any water that splashes up as far as the muffler has to go three times around the spiral and find its way out the top.Â Hopefully that is unlikely and it won't find its way through the rest of the exhaust.Â The last bit is the through hull.Â It is a tube, within a tube design, that limits the transfer of heat to the hull and will hopefully help keep the epoxy coat of the hull in good condition.Â I added a spring-loaded flapper to the exhaust to further ensure that water isn't going to find its way into the exhaust.Â The flapper may get a coat of silicone if it proves to be noisy.Â The yellow bits under the through hull flange are just scraps of foam to act as a temporary spacer.Â Once the weather improves I'll repair the epoxy underneath and then use high temperature silicone to seal the exhaust fitting to the hull. Thanks again to everyone who provided advice, Darren | 35019|34984|2018-04-16 13:46:24|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Hey Darren, Winston clearly used threaded fittings for the 360 coming off the exhaust for 2 reasons I figure. Cheap &easy, but also, it moves eventually it's gonna break, this way you only have to replace the busted bit, again, cheap & easy.I avent ripped it apart to look, but would figure only welding would be through transom n perhaps joining straight bits.Might have to upsize the exhaust meself.Re loading up the engine.Collectively you guys pretty much nailed my understanding of diesels.They want to work, but only when warm. The will work cold, but grudgingly, expensively.Chang the oil. Change 5he oil. .............. Glazing cylinders by underloading, yes, but I'm hoping to avoid that by mounting a hydraulic pump straight out the front of the engineon one of those 3 rubber fingered drive mounts. No side load on fwd crank pulley & dead simple. Max power your gonna get outta the engine for accessories with the least stress on it. Friend who had a fishpacker sed it saved & solved lotsa problems.Then just run everything off hydraulics, 100amp alternator 4 welder & another to charge(??), watermaker, winlass, sternroller & the ability to add more & freedom to put em where you like. Save heaps of hasstle. About $250 per device with hose.But also good to give it a good hard run for 10 minutes every 10 hours.5 knotts is comfy for crusing, but the ability to do over 7 could be useful I'm hoping that it will be enough to do 7 in pretty much any conditions (that I'd want to be out in anyway)Size & shape another factor.Most, including my friend with the packer, seem to believe the only way to mount an engine is perfectly in line with the prop shaft.Aside from the fact that access below would be availabe only by assuming the prenatal position if the engine were mounted that way,I think the very concept is abolutely perfectly suited for the "Yottie" ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thank you everyone for pitching in. Exellent.The engine and gearbox I bought came with a 21 x 17 prop and is a ""Suzie" put together by klassen diesel.Now have it at the isuzu geek in duncan. It is rather long in the tooth, is going to be a pain in the ass to get it in, gonna bugger up the galley and heads. But the plan is to completely rebuild it.At the same time, even if it was in a commercial trawler, wot maybe 150 hours a year, for 20 year is inly 6,000 hr. They go for 30, hell, even if it was omly 15-18,ooo that still leaves min 9,000 hrs service left in it or about 15 year. I'll be dead by then.And yes I got it cheap, $2500 and got another few bucks into it.A complete rebuild of the engine would about another $4k.The geek is reseaching and will get back to me next week.But that does not include the gearbpx. Anyone knoe a good gearbox mechanic. It seems fine all but for the rear seal, but best to have it all checked out and put right now and not later| 35020|34984|2018-04-16 17:07:33|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|I was ranting on about the engine, got distracted. Hit send.Anyway, was saying that the practice of ligning up an engine perfectly with the shaft is a lotta bullshit that does nothing but keep the marine industry types whos specialty is wet exhausts and raw water cooling so very happyPut the engine anywhere you want it and use cv joints and shorten or extend the drive shaft as needed. Use cv's, not universals as i have b4, cv's are more rugged, thanks Brent).Same concept exactly. You can safely go 15 degrees outta wack with a universal so would immagine similar with a cv jernt.And get a plumbers block for the end load.This way we can make almost all of little Suzie disappear, the rest we can hide ubder the dining table, have stowage above and exellent all round access should it be needed. Also gain heaps of room aft from it's old home.At least the engine bearers are simple....straight on top of the keel, the strongest part of the whole strucure isn't it?| 35021|34984|2018-04-16 20:02:27|opuspaul|Re: Isizu C221|I have a hydraulic system belted off the front of my engine running an anchor winch and a hydraulic motor for watermaker. Before you commit to hydraulics, price out the cost of all the hoses, control valves and fittings. It might surprise you how much it will cost. Matching flow rates, pressures and hp rating is critical. Hydraulic motors and pumps are also surprisingly noisy, often giving out a high pitched and annoying whine.| 35022|34984|2018-04-17 08:49:24|garyhlucas|Re: Isizu C221| I used to joke that â€˜hydraulicâ€™ is a French word, that means leak! Brent advocates simplicity, no way hydraulics are simple. Not very efficient either, unless tremendous reduction ratios are needed which is where they excel. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 7:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 I have a hydraulic system belted off the front of my engine running an anchor winch and a hydraulic motor for watermaker. Before you commit to hydraulics, price out the cost of all the hoses, control valves and fittings. It might surprise you how much it will cost. Matching flow rates, pressures and hp rating is critical. Hydraulic motors and pumps are also surprisingly noisy, often giving out a high pitched and annoying whine.| 35023|34984|2018-04-17 10:02:27|Matt Malone|Re: Isizu C221| About the annoying whine of hydraulics.... Does yours make this whine when running accessories like the anchor winch or water maker or when you are not using the accessories, just running the engine? Does the hydraulic circuit to the water maker have a valve, or its it always active? Do you have a hydraulic accumulator anywhere in the system? If the whine is caused by high frequency pressure variations coming off the pump, it may be possible to damp them down so they are not as annoying. http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/other-technologies/getting-root-hydraulic-noise-problems They say putting an accumulator on the branch of a T fitting is not very effective. It seems to me that the poor man's solution might be instead of having the accumulator T-off the pump supply line, reverse the accumulator and appliance feed hoses on the T so that the pump flow enters one side of the T, and the accumulator is in line on the other side of the T. The bulk flow takes a turn, the vibrations head mainly straight to the accumulator. This should be more effective in proportion to how much less effective having the accumulator on the branch part of the T is. The reverse would be used at the hydraulic motor -- flow enters from the branch part of the T, with the accumulator to one side and the motor to the other. If the motor is generating pulses back on the supply line, these should preferentially go to the accumulator. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 7:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Isizu C221 I have a hydraulic system belted off the front of my engine running an anchor winch and a hydraulic motor for watermaker. Before you commit to hydraulics, price out the cost of all the hoses, control valves and fittings. It might surprise you how much it will cost. Matching flow rates, pressures and hp rating is critical. Hydraulic motors and pumps are also surprisingly noisy, often giving out a high pitched and annoying whine. | 35024|34984|2018-04-17 10:53:33|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Thanks Paul for the heads up re hydraulic motor sound.Planning on a "least resistance ""system. No filter but a about a 10" long cylindrical screen in the tank. Real fine.Pump runs continious off harmonic equalizer directly and is plummed to pump directly back into the tank in a closed loop, but plumbed to a gallery of valves for your various devices.Have the tank setup and a single drive motor, coulpa valves & was figuring on $2k all in for hydraulics.I guess what you gain in effiency with the hydraulic pump direct off the front of hormonic equalizer, you lose in the inneffiency of hydraulic lines.But if you belt it, how much do you lose? 20%?And what about the side load on fwd main bearing? Any simple way to mitigate sideload?If it's gotta be out the side I'd be inclined to go chain drive, (mayhaps with a double sprocket out front to ballance the load) Getting complex. Hydraulics sounding cheaper all the time n just insulate heaps....?| 35025|34605|2018-04-17 11:04:14|rockrothwell|Re: dry exhaust details|Hey Darren,That silicon gonna cost you mateI have no idea what it does to aluminum but being so acidic, I wonder.I have nothing but horror stories. Expensive nightmare.It eats copper, on fiberglass after about 2 year it leaks.Absolute crap.but really well advertized!If you are into castings, check out a company called "smooth on" in north delta, or they were.| 35026|34605|2018-04-17 14:14:38|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| It is during the cure that you get the acetic acid from some one-part silicones.Â However, my parts were cured in mold, then washed and mounted.Â I suspect it will be fine, but I will keep an eye on them.Â Normally, I'd rather not use silicone on a boat, mostly because it is almost impossible to get all the residue off and not even silicone will bond to the old silicone residue. However, even with the tube-in-tube design of my exhaust exit, the sealant around the opening is going to see higher temps and silicone seems like a good choice for this application.Â I intend to make the sealant about 1/4 thick.Â Most sealants on boats fail because they are squeezed too thin and there isn't enough material to flex with expansion and contraction.Â In the past I've used those clear little 3M rubber feet stuck to the back of portholes or window frames before adding the sealant to act as an in situ spacer.Â None of those ports ever leaked.Â The 3M feet are only about 3mm thick, so I'll have to figure something else out for the exhaust exit.Â I'd be happy to hear of any other high-temp sealant options. On 18-04-17 08:03 AM, rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Hey Darren, That silicon gonna cost you mate I have no idea what it does to aluminum but being so acidic, I wonder. I have nothing but horror stories. Expensive nightmare. It eats copper, on fiberglass after about 2 year it leaks. Absolute crap.but really well advertized! If you are into castings, check out a company called "smooth on" in north delta, or they were. | 35027|34605|2018-04-17 22:20:21|opuspaul|Re: dry exhaust details|There are two basic kinds of silicon. They are normally labeled either neutral cure and acetic cure. The acetic cure is the common one (it smells like vinegar) and it will corrode metals like aluminum. The neutral cure one should be safe.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hey Darren,That silicon gonna cost you mateI have no idea what it does to aluminum but being so acidic, I wonder.I have nothing but horror stories. Expensive nightmare.It eats copper, on fiberglass after about 2 year it leaks.Absolute crap.but really well advertized!If you are into castings, check out a company called "smooth on" in north delta, or they were.| 35028|34984|2018-04-17 22:47:49|opuspaul|Re: Isizu C221|A simple hydraulic gear pump not much larger than your fist can deliver about 3 hp. This is OK to belt off the front of the engine but any larger than that and you will get belt slippage. On my setup, the hydraulic pump belt comes on and off when I need it. You can use electric clutches but it is just something else to fail. I use a lever arm and it only takes about 30 seconds to flip the belt on or off. I would go direct drive if I was going to a full time system or wanted more horsepower. Space can be a problem. I don't think I would want hydraulic drive for my main propulsion system. Nothing is really simpler than a gearbox like a Hurth (ZF) direct to a shaft.I have a screen filter in the tank pickup and a 20 micron spin on filter in the low pressure return line to the tank. Without the 20 micron filter, you are asking for trouble. Most likely you will have premature wear on the pump and motor or outright failure since it only takes a small bit to stuff them up, even with a gear pump.I love having a hydraulic anchor winch. It is very fast, reliable and much more powerful than an electric system. I had one horrible night when I am sure that without it I would have ended up on the beach. The only problem I have had once I got the bugs worked out was after 15 years I started blowing seals in the motor. I couldn't figure out what the problem was but it turned out being a collapsing hose in the return line. So keep in mind that the hoses don't last forever and will have to be replaced. I would use re-usable fittings and wrap them in Denso (petrolatum) tape rather trying to keep paint on them. It is much easier and properly wrapped, they won't rust and will last forever. I bought almost everything from either Princess Auto or Northern Tool.Hydraulics is not rocket science but it must be designed properly to work properly. I designed my system using the hydraulic books available from Princess Auto. I don't know if they are still available but I would read as much as you can before putting a system together.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks Paul for the heads up re hydraulic motor sound.Planning on a "least resistance ""system. No filter but a about a 10" long cylindrical screen in the tank. Real fine.Pump runs continious off harmonic equalizer directly and is plummed to pump directly back into the tank in a closed loop, but plumbed to a gallery of valves for your various devices.Have the tank setup and a single drive motor, coulpa valves & was figuring on $2k all in for hydraulics.I guess what you gain in effiency with the hydraulic pump direct off the front of hormonic equalizer, you lose in the inneffiency of hydraulic lines.But if you belt it, how much do you lose? 20%?And what about the side load on fwd main bearing? Any simple way to mitigate sideload?If it's gotta be out the side I'd be inclined to go chain drive, (mayhaps with a double sprocket out front to ballance the load) Getting complex. Hydraulics sounding cheaper all the time n just insulate heaps....?| 35029|34605|2018-04-18 08:54:56|garyhlucas|Re: dry exhaust details| Years ago I did some extensive research on silicones in trying to get a reliable seal on aluminum to concrete. What I learned is that silicones get a bad rap primarily from being used wrong. Every building with large glass panes use silicone to seal between the panes with huge expansion and very few problems. There are two things you must have for a good seal using silicone. The first is a gap large enough to allow the silicone to move from half its thickness to twice its thickness. A 1/16â€ gap means motion must be restricted to 1/32â€ compression or 1/16â€ stretch. I work with plastic tanks where the wall thickness varies a lot and weâ€™ve found that gaskets twice the thickness variation on large flanges never leak or fail. The second thing is shear. That little tightfitting stainless cover plate to dress up the large gap needed for the silicone or any sealant just shears it right off. Leave a large gap and use a foam backer deigned for this purpose so you can fill the gap easily. Yes there are different curing systems for silicones and the ones designed for metals are not acidic. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details There are two basic kinds of silicon. They are normally labeled either neutral cure and acetic cure. The acetic cure is the common one (it smells like vinegar) and it will corrode metals like aluminum. The neutral cure one should be safe. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hey Darren, That silicon gonna cost you mate I have no idea what it does to aluminum but being so acidic, I wonder. I have nothing but horror stories. Expensive nightmare. It eats copper, on fiberglass after about 2 year it leaks. Absolute crap.but really well advertized! If you are into castings, check out a company called &qu ot;smooth on" in north delta, or they were.| 35030|34605|2018-04-18 09:44:45|Matt Malone|Re: dry exhaust details| Good discussion on silicones, and using the right one, and using it properly. I second that gap and silicone thickness is very important. When I bed anything, I get it really clean, with a sanded finish, then apply a thick layer of silicon as a squat pyramid. Then I lower my object onto it carefully so the silicone pyramid progressively squishes, providing no (fewer) air bubbles. I let the silicone fully cure as a thick layer before torquing the bolts. I have yet to have to bed something a second time. I have had good experience with even premium hardware store silicone (acidic). I have used red high temperature silicone too, same pointers. Matt From: gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 08:57 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Years ago I did some extensive research on silicones in trying to get a reliable seal on aluminum to concrete. What I learned is that silicones get a bad rap primarily from being used wrong. Every building with large glass panes use silicone to seal between the panes with huge expansion and very few problems. There are two things you must have for a good seal using silicone. The first is a gap large enough to allow the silicone to move from half its thickness to twice its thickness. A 1/16â€ gap means motion must be restricted to 1/32â€ compression or 1/16â€ stretch. I work with plastic tanks where the wall thickness varies a lot and weâ€™ve found that gaskets twice the thickness variation on large flanges never leak or fail. The second thing is shear. That little tightfitting stainless cover plate to dress up the large gap needed for the silicone or any sealant just shears it right off. Leave a large gap and use a foam backer deigned for this purpose so you can fill the gap easily. Yes there are different curing systems for silicones and the ones designed for metals are not acidic. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dry exhaust details There are two basic kinds of silicon. They are normally labeled either neutral cure and acetic cure. The acetic cure is the common one (it smells like vinegar) and it will corrode metals like aluminum. The neutral cure one should be safe. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hey Darren, That silicon gonna cost you mate I have no idea what it does to aluminum but being so acidic, I wonder. I have nothing but horror stories. Expensive nightmare. It eats copper, on fiberglass after about 2 year it leaks. Absolute crap.but really well advertized! If you are into castings, check out a company called &qu ot;smooth on" in north delta, or they were. | 35031|34605|2018-04-18 11:20:13|rockrothwell|Re: dry exhaust details|Clearly you know much more than I re silicon. Good luck| 35032|34984|2018-04-19 11:49:43|rockrothwell|Re: Isizu C221|Thank you Paul for yet anothet exellent disertation.Was it you who said that hydraulics are not simple (which kinda works cross purposes to the Brentboat mentality). Not in design perhaps but they sure simplify things when it picks up.That little Suzie is sweet. Got a call from the mechanic whilst he's still researching who raved. Confirmed it was the same donk used by the squillion in Thermocool reefeer units that go 30k between service and that parts still available. Got a buyer waiting...But it's 47" all up, plus the hydraulic pump...... under the companionway steps & goodbye galley, heads & access on the stb'd side, under the dining table (it doesnt collapse into a bunk so not a setee) and it's a complete refigue down below having to not quite gut the lot.Mechanic said I'd have no problem selling it as is, or rebuilt, thankfully, as I'm reconsidering my options. Got a line on kubota in good nick....Even if it's only the winlass fwd, I'm going hydraulic. Got most of the bits for that anyway, it's all the other add ons that are gonna add cost & add complexity- got the book from princess Assholes (screwed me properly once, cheap but LAST choice) and sourcing a hydraulics geek.I try to avoid belts if I can, direct or chain drive is worth the extra. Can get more power with less strain/wearb & more dependable. But the room available, etc... Any idea how much power can be drawn for accessories off the pully fwd if it's direct drive off the front?Have been told no need for external filter, but a 20 mic on the return is gonna cost nothing in power to run & doubt there'd be any whine with no device running. Cheap insurance. water maker is the device that'd be run longest, but you got the engine running anyway, that's what ear protection is for.Gonna go with metal plumbing as much as possible & reusable fittings & denso. Thanx.| 35033|34984|2018-04-20 14:40:16|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|One can resolve the space and access to the engine problem by redoing the interior around the engine, with removable panels. Quite simple !| 35034|34984|2018-04-20 14:43:40|Aethiopicus|Re: Isizu C221| That engine is the smaller bore version of the engine I've in my boat the c240 that one however also has the advantage of being used in 1981â€“1982 Chevy Luv and the 1981-1987 Isuzu Pups, quarter ton diesel pickups that you rarely see in canada but are in the states, so in theory you should be able to go to any car parts store and order parts for it, you just have to lie and tell them it's for a 1987 isuzu pup and don't tell them it's for a boat otherwise they'll say they can't help you As for driving off the crankshaft pulleys I don't really know how much load you can put on it but I doubt a hydraulic pump would be too much. As i couldn't find an Eight inch pulley (for the weldernator) that was made to fit the existing one on it I had a 1" keyed stub shaft made up and on that I attached a Browning taper-loc pulley to. | 35035|34984|2018-04-20 14:51:19|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|Main bearings take huge side loads with pistons banging away on them thousands of times per minute. By comparison, belts are very small change.| 35036|34984|2018-04-20 14:55:59|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|I have all the parts to go hydraulic on my anchor winch, have had for years. What makes me reluctant is hydraulics make it extremely easy to seriously injure yourself , in remote areas.Last summer a friend lost finger to a hydraulic anchor winch. Very little chance of that with a hand winch. Not making things too easy, saves yuppies a fortune in gym fees.| 35037|34605|2018-04-20 15:15:12|brentswain38|Re: dry exhaust details|One could weld an aluminium 2 inch sch 40 pipe at the right angle, thru the transom, then run a 1 1//2 inch sch 40 thru it, for the exhaust pipe, with the space between them filled with silicone, pumped thru holes in the sch 40 pipe, drilled in for that purpose. That would also give you some flex at that point.| 35038|34984|2018-04-20 15:24:46|brentswain38|Re: Isizu C221|The hydraulic drives on Vancouver Harbour Sea Buses make a constant annoying whine whenever they are underway. If they had a solution they would have used it by now.| 35039|35039|2018-04-22 19:05:18|aguysailing|Mainsail wanted used|Used mainsail wanted. I am looking to replace my old mainsail 41'luff, 15' foot, 43'7" leech. The sail had plastic insert sliders 1 5/8 x 15/16 inches and 2 reef points.I did find a used sail off a racing boat that has a bolt rope at the luff and no reef points. It is located in Sydney at a used sail shop. Just wondering if a grommet set to put in grommets beside the bolt rope would be strong enough for sliders? And as for making reef points ... I have the old rings but not the sewing kit unless something else may suit. .... thanks| 35040|35039|2018-04-23 11:35:57|rockrothwell|Re: Mainsail wanted used|What is the name of the used sail sshop in Sydney?The small gromets might work if you re-enfoce the hell outta it, but a big honkin' gromet that a sailmaker would use hydraulic press would be best.Got a helluva deal on a hand crank Singer sewing machine from a guy in south surry, a sewing machine geek. Who'd a thunk?Steve @ 778 317 5543 & he got me all sorted with info, manuals, wot needles & specifically wot thread for $100. | 35041|35039|2018-04-23 19:06:17|brentswain38|Re: Mainsail wanted used|usedsailloft.com was , I believe, the name.One can make a frame up to take a hydraulic jack, and make up dies to press in gromets---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :What is the name of the used sail sshop in Sydney?The small gromets might work if you re-enfoce the hell outta it, but a big honkin' gromet that a sailmaker would use hydraulic press would be best.Got a helluva deal on a hand crank Singer sewing machine from a guy in south surry, a sewing machine geek. Who'd a thunk?Steve @ 778 317 5543 & he got me all sorted with info, manuals, wot needles & specifically wot thread for $100. | 35042|34605|2018-04-27 12:17:14|rockrothwell|Re: Making your comment clear in context|Hi Mat,Guilt as charged, though not intentionally.As mmentioned in earlier posts, big brother will not allow me to spell names of family.Had to enter your name 4 times until it was not " corrected" on the 5th go.Same sorta bullshit with yahoo. In the email, in the origami group. Dropping messages, needing multiple repeats of keystokes & prompts.The only compensation is you guys. Your comment, help, contacts. Tremendous.But I have issues with the method of communication. Sorry to rant, will persevereCheers,Shane| 35043|35043|2018-04-29 18:25:15|brentswain38|36 single keeler for sale|Here is one of my 36 footers for sale. The owner, an Alaskan, has cruised to Australia and back in her. Now he wants to build a twin keel version, for Alaska cruising and fishing. https://anchorage.craigslist.org/boa/d/brent-swain-36-pilothouse/6560698726.html| 35044|35044|2018-04-30 17:48:43|jhess314|Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|Seeing Brent's post for someone wanting to sell their single-keel boat so they could make a twin-keel boat got me to wondering. I like the idea of being able to dry out level, but I seldom see twin-keeled boats for sale. How big of a headache would it be to cut off a fin keel on a metal boat (not necessarily a BS) and replace it with a twin or bilge keel? How much of a discount on the cost of a used metal boat would be needed to pay for the necessary changes?| 35045|35044|2018-04-30 19:29:15|mountain man|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?| There were some threads since a year about that kind of conversion De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de j.hess@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 30 avril 2018 17:26:56 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? Seeing Brent's post for someone wanting to sell their single-keel boat so they could make a twin-keel boat got me to wondering. I like the idea of being able to dry out level, but I seldom see twin-keeled boats for sale. How big of a headache would it be to cut off a fin keel on a metal boat (not necessarily a BS) and replace it with a twin or bilge keel? How much of a discount on the cost of a used metal boat would be needed to pay for the necessary changes? | 35046|34605|2018-04-30 20:34:09|Darren Bos|Re: dry exhaust details| Brent, my understanding is that the insulation for your dry exaust goes 1.5" fiberglass batting, aluminum foil, fiberglass tape, silicone coating.Â What is the purpose of the aluminum foil?Â Thanks in advance, Darren | 35047|35044|2018-04-30 20:41:44|opuspaul|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|I wouldn't go to the expense, time or effort. Just make up some sheer legs. You could probably get away with one but I would have two on each side. I made some that clamp to the scuppers. I haven't used them in the mud yet on a tide but they have worked well when hauled out or moving the boat with a crane.http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/improvement-projects/261-giving-your-boat-some-legs.html---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There were some threads since a year about that kind of conversionDe : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de j.hess@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 30 avril 2018 17:26:56 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? Seeing Brent's post for someone wanting to sell their single-keel boat so they could make a twin-keel boat got me to wondering. I like the idea of being able to dry out level, but I seldom see twin-keeled boats for sale. How big of a headache would it be to cut off a fin keel on a metal boat (not necessarily a BS) and replace it with a twin or bilge keel? 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ul li:x_last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 35048|35044|2018-04-30 20:46:33|opuspaul|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|My sheer legs are made from heavy angle iron welded to all thread rod. They bolt to fence posts. You could carry the brackets with you and then just get some fence posts when you want to haul out. There are some photos here:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/photos/albums/1756648977---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I wouldn't go to the expense, time or effort. Just make up some sheer legs. You could probably get away with one but I would have two on each side. I made some that clamp to the scuppers. I haven't used them in the mud yet on a tide but they have worked well when hauled out or moving the boat with a crane.http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/improvement-projects/261-giving-your-boat-some-legs.html---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There were some threads since a year about that kind of conversionDe : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de j.hess@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 30 avril 2018 17:26:56 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? Seeing Brent's post for someone wanting to sell their single-keel boat so they could make a twin-keel boat got me to wondering. I like the idea of being able to dry out level, but I seldom see twin-keeled boats for sale. How big of a headache would it be to cut off a fin keel on a metal boat (not necessarily a BS) and replace it with a twin or bilge keel? 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#ygrps-yiv-1131376149ygrps-yiv-1394172492ygrps-yiv-1382628083 #ygrps-yiv-1131376149ygrps-yiv-1394172492ygrps-yiv-1382628083x_ygrp-vital ul li:x_last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 35049|35044|2018-04-30 21:02:34|Matt Malone|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?| Why would you cut off the fin and put on bilge keels? If you are just looking to dry out level, you just need to support the boat. Yes bilge keels are more robust than spindly beach legs, but if you are into hull welding the sockets or brackets for far stronger legs are a lot less work. Say you put a 150 pound budget to two legs. 75 pounds of steel say 5 feet long bolted near the waterline with braces. That is potentially very strong. Alternately it could be like a 2 D craddle that clamps beam-wise on the boat so your boat has a cross-shaped footing on the bottom - the keel fore-aft, the frame beamwise. 150 pounds would go a long way on that too. You could assemble it at the bow. Using sealed tubes it could be 40 pounds in the water. It could be form-fitted to fit two spots on the boat, one just ahead and one just behind the greatest beam, grasping the keel. Lower it in, walk it back to its station and transport-truck cargo strap it up against the hull and keel with the strap going over the cabin. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 30, 17:48 Subject: [origamiboats] Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Seeing Brent's post for someone wanting to sell their single-keel boat so they could make a twin-keel boat got me to wondering. I like the idea of being able to dry out level, but I seldom see twin-keeled boats for sale. How big of a headache would it be to cut off a fin keel on a metal boat (not necessarily a BS) and replace it with a twin or bilge keel? How much of a discount on the cost of a used metal boat would be needed to pay for the necessary changes? | 35050|35044|2018-04-30 21:21:48|jhess314|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|Thanks for all the sheer legs ideas. They certainly could be good idea for occasional use, under controlled conditions. But I prefer the stability of twin keels under adverse conditions, and so was wondering how much trouble it would be to retrofit twin keels. Here is one reason I'm less than enthusiastic about sheer legs. :)https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_Far_Back.jpg https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_F... View on s7.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo | 35051|35044|2018-04-30 21:34:14|opuspaul|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|They didn't know what they are doing. If I was only using two legs, I would put them forward of the leading edge of the keel about where the mast is located or add a prop under the bow. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks for all the sheer legs ideas. They certainly could be good idea for occasional use, under controlled conditions. But I prefer the stability of twin keels under adverse conditions, and so was wondering how much trouble it would be to retrofit twin keels. Here is one reason I'm less than enthusiastic about sheer legs. :)https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_Far_Back.jpg https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_F... View on s7.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo | 35052|35044|2018-04-30 21:39:08|opuspaul|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|Looking at the picture again, think about it as a tripod. They don't have enough spread fore and aft. The center of gravity is further forward than people think. With such a short keel, I would feel much safer with 4 legs. | 35053|35043|2018-05-01 07:08:45|Maxime Camirand|Re: 36 single keeler for sale|For some reason, Craigslist is telling me the post has been flagged for removal. On 30 April 2018 at 06:25, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Here is one of my 36 footers for sale. The owner, an Alaskan, has cruisedÂ to Australia and back in her. Now he wants to build a twin keel version, forÂ Alaska cruising and fishing. https://anchorage.craigslist. org/boa/d/brent-swain-36- pilothouse/6560698726.html | 35054|35044|2018-05-01 07:24:53|Matt Malone|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?| Consider that the boat floats, all of the weight is above the bottom of the twin keels, and the separation between the keels is small in comparison to every other dimension of the boat. It is not hard to see that in the wrong conditions one could end up on one side even with twin keels. One big wave at the wrong moment, and some trip hazard on the bottom. It is probable one would have to be more careful with shear legs, depending on the design. But again, depending on design, they might provide far wider footing and more stability. There is no limit to ingenuity for something that does not have to be part of the hull form at all times. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 30, 21:21 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Thanks for all the sheer legs ideas. They certainly could be good idea for occasional use, under controlled conditions. But I prefer the stability of twin keels under adverse conditions, and so was wondering how much trouble it would be to retrofit twin keels. Here is one reason I'm less than enthusiastic about sheer legs. :) https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_Far_Back.jpg https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_F... View on s7.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo | 35055|35044|2018-05-01 07:32:54|Matt Malone|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?| Certainly with that keel shape in the photo. Leg design depends on the boat. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 9:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? They didn't know what they are doing. If I was only using two legs, I would put them forward of the leading edge of the keel about where the mast is located or add a prop under the bow. Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thanks for all the sheer legs ideas. They certainly could be good idea for occasional use, under controlled conditions. But I prefer the stability of twin keels under adverse conditions, and so was wondering how much trouble it would be to retrofit twin keels. Here is one reason I'm less than enthusiastic about sheer legs. :) https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_Far_Back.jpg https://s7.postimg.cc/voir5q0jf/Boat_Leg_with_Keel_Too_F... View on s7.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo | 35056|35044|2018-05-01 07:38:12|Matt Malone|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?| With such a small footing area, I would be concerned about yawing instability: the whole boat yaws around the keel contact, all the legs lean over and down she goes. Particularly when the tide is washing and exposing the material the keel is standing on. I would be inclined to have at least one leg as a bipod, possibly at the bow (bipod oriented beam-wise), to prevent yawing, and then 2 legs that are just columns. A structure that locks into a longer keel than the one in the photo (boat tipped on its bow on a cut-away keel) would prevent yawing because it was locked to the keel. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? Looking at the picture again, think about it as a tripod. They don't have enough spread fore and aft. The center of gravity is further forward than people think. With such a short keel, I would feel much safer with 4 legs. | 35057|35043|2018-05-01 07:38:49|Matt Malone|Re: 36 single keeler for sale| Me too. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Maxime Camirand maxcamirand@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 7:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36 single keeler for sale For some reason, Craigslist is telling me the post has been flagged for removal. On 30 April 2018 at 06:25, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Here is one of my 36 footers for sale. The owner, an Alaskan, has cruised to Australia and back in her. Now he wants to build a twin keel version, for Alaska cruising and fishing. https://anchorage.craigslist. org/boa/d/brent-swain-36- pilothouse/6560698726.html | 35058|35044|2018-05-01 09:29:48|jhess314|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|Matt,Your points are well taken, but if I had to leave a boat unattended for a number of tide cycles, or if bottom conditions were gnarly, I still think that twin keels would be preferable. I suppose one could go with a belt-and-suspenders approach and go both with twin keels AND sheer legs. 8-)I'm hoping Brent will weigh in on the topic, both the value of twin keels over single keels, as well as the viability of converting a fin keeler to a twin/bilge keeler.For what it's worth, here is an argument someone has made regarding the hydrodynamics of bilge keels.http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.htmlJohn---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Consider that the boat floats, all of the weight is above the bottom of the twin keels, and the separation between the keels is small in comparison to every other dimension of the boat. It is not hard to see that in the wrong conditions one could end up on one side even with twin keels. One big wave at the wrong moment, and some trip hazard on the bottom. It is probable one would have to be more careful with shear legs, depending on the design. But again, depending on design, they might provide far wider footing and more stability. There is no limit to ingenuity for something that does not have to be part of the hull form at all times. Matt | 35059|35044|2018-05-01 11:19:51|Matt Malone|Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers| John, The article is definitely interesting and raised many points, many pluses, that are new to me. John's link again is here: http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html I recall the bilge keeler that was entered into the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race was judged to be entirely unsuitable as an actively sailing open ocean racer in the expected conditions even by modern commentators by virtue of the fact that it was a bilge keeler alone. They must have been seeing something about that boat in particular, that was not representative of the class of boats, or some aspect that outweighed the efficiency gains possible according to this article. I note that one of the photos in the article looks like a Colin Archer deep hull/keel, with an over-sized fin/small bilge keel sticking out. So that would be a tri-keel ? If this qualifies as a bilge keel, instead of a "bilge fin" then it is less surprising that possibly different designs can have the list of benefits given in the article ... but then it is still possible that no one design can have all of the listed advantages. I did not see anything about robustness against gusts. A single keel boat loses both sail effectiveness and keel effectiveness as it heels. This will make an-already heeled single keeler in equilibrium with average conditions less responsive to sudden gusts, and this may be a good thing. This allows the excessive energy of the gust to spill away with less affect on the boat. It sounds more comfortable to me both in the reassurance sense that there is robustness, and in the literal comfort sense. On the other hand, the twin bilge keeler, whose one keel has yet to reach vertical, experiences increased effectiveness in a gust. One would have to trim the boat differently and perhaps reef more to compensate. If one sailed a twin keeler in the same way as a single keeler in highly variable gusts, it would be easier to catch one that tested the boat's stability margin to a greater extent. On the other hand, the bilge keeler may be able to harness more of the energy of these gusts into sailing, instead of letting it wastefully spill away. A plus and a minus... which to choose... I did not see anything about tripping to capsize, heavy seas etc, certainly a tiny fraction of the time for a boat, but something that usually enters discussions about design differences. If these are not the minuses of the design (all designs have pluses and minuses) that some might imagine, then I would like to hear what the truth is. It would be fair to address these points in a comprehensive article. The article also talked of bilge boards (retractable) instead of bilge keels. The catamaran defense to unpredictable conditions of retracting keel boards and allowing the boat to skate sideways across the water in unexpected high lateral loads is one approach allowed by a variable form boat. A boat with fixed bilge keels does not have that option. The large single deep keel, with wineglass cross-section across the beam makes a boat that can lay 60 degrees over and lose effective grip on both the air and the water and give way on its side when overwhelmed. Yes, if the lower rail goes under, one can get tremendous tripping forces, putting it the rest of the way. Really heavy cruising motorcycles have all sorts of low side projections that seem really handily placed to act as a series of fulcrums -- intermediate contact points -- so that one does not have to be Hercules to lift them from a dropped position. All the benefits of a bilge keel also seem, in the wrong conditions, to be assistive devices to make it easier for the wind and sea to roll the boat. Further, if it were ever to fall over on a beach, these devices become greater impediments to righting the boat. Worst case, if a single keeler lays over on its side, on a beach, if its companionway is centrally located, it is possible it might be floated vertical again without taking water, particularly if it is reoriented keel down-slope on a sloping beach. Even if not, I can see a use for heavy plastic sheeting and rolls of really sticky tape, like Tuck tape, to seal all of the topside openings for a couple of hours until the boat regained enough flotation to start to right itself. If a bilge keeler goes over, which is admittedly harder, but if it does, one better start digging a hole for one keel, or it seems far less likely it might be re-floated without flooding. The plastic sheet and Tuck tape solution is still an option. Bilge keelers and the advantage to beach them on remote beaches reminds me of a saying about 4x4 vehicles -- they are the best way to get stuck really badly, really far out, when things go wrong. However, all that aside, I find the claimed 15-20% performance boost, combined with the ability to beach in favourable conditions with a great deal less preparation, might be the pluses that make me reconsider bilge keelers as a class. A bilge board boat -- if one is building from scratch and has the opportunity to include innovative features -- seems a far easier way to gain the hydrodynamic and performance advantages (like Open 60s do). If the bilge boards are robust enough, they could be beach legs, providing that advantage of a bilge keeler too. When the bilge boards are a liability, retract them. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 9:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? Matt, Your points are well taken, but if I had to leave a boat unattended for a number of tide cycles, or if bottom conditions were gnarly, I still think that twin keels would be preferable. I suppose one could go with a belt-and-suspenders approach and go both with twin keels AND sheer legs. 8-) I'm hoping Brent will weigh in on the topic, both the value of twin keels over single keels, as well as the viability of converting a fin keeler to a twin/bilge keeler. For what it's worth, here is an argument someone has made regarding the hydrodynamics of bilge keels. http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Consider that the boat floats, all of the weight is above the bottom of the twin keels, and the separation between the keels is small in comparison to every other dimension of the boat. It is not hard to see that in the wrong conditions one could end up on one side even with twin keels. One big wave at the wrong moment, and some trip hazard on the bottom. It is probable one would have to be more careful with shear legs, depending on the design. But again, depending on design, they might provide far wider footing and more stability. There is no limit to ingenuity for something that does not have to be part of the hull form at all times. Matt | 35060|35044|2018-05-01 11:48:26|Jfisher|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|I personally think the idea of a twin keel boat tipping over on the beach is pretty unlikely. Consider Alex's boat was pulled across a field on the keels they are quite stable. The only real downside I can see with twin keels is that you can't deal with ice as well. Being frozen in may damage the hull from the forces trying to crush the two keels. I think the reason twin keels are not developed more at least on the model scale is the racing rules prohibit them. The classes that do allow development, just jumped straight to water ballast or movable keels. John Sent from my iPad On May 1, 2018, at 09:19, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: John, The article is definitely interesting and raised many points, many pluses, that are new to me. John's link again is here: http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html I recall the bilge keeler that was entered into the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race was judged to be entirely unsuitable as an actively sailing open ocean racer in the expected conditions even by modern commentators by virtue of the fact that it was a bilge keeler alone. They must have been seeing something about that boat in particular, that was not representative of the class of boats, or some aspect that outweighed the efficiency gains possible according to this article. I note that one of the photos in the article looks like a Colin Archer deep hull/keel, with an over-sized fin/small bilge keel sticking out. So that would be a tri-keel ? If this qualifies as a bilge keel, instead of a "bilge fin" then it is less surprising that possibly different designs can have the list of benefits given in the article ... but then it is still possible that no one design can have all of the listed advantages. I did not see anything about robustness against gusts. A single keel boat loses both sail effectiveness and keel effectiveness as it heels. This will make an-already heeled single keeler in equilibrium with average conditions less responsive to sudden gusts, and this may be a good thing. This allows the excessive energy of the gust to spill away with less affect on the boat. It sounds more comfortable to me both in the reassurance sense that there is robustness, and in the literal comfort sense. On the other hand, the twin bilge keeler, whose one keel has yet to reach vertical, experiences increased effectiveness in a gust. One would have to trim the boat differently and perhaps reef more to compensate. If one sailed a twin keeler in the same way as a single keeler in highly variable gusts, it would be easier to catch one that tested the boat's stability margin to a greater extent. On the other hand, the bilge keeler may be able to harness more of the energy of these gusts into sailing, instead of letting it wastefully spill away. A plus and a minus... which to choose... I did not see anything about tripping to capsize, heavy seas etc, certainly a tiny fraction of the time for a boat, but something that usually enters discussions about design differences. If these are not the minuses of the design (all designs have pluses and minuses) that some might imagine, then I would like to hear what the truth is. It would be fair to address these points in a comprehensive article. The article also talked of bilge boards (retractable) instead of bilge keels. The catamaran defense to unpredictable conditions of retracting keel boards and allowing the boat to skate sideways across the water in unexpected high lateral loads is one approach allowed by a variable form boat. A boat with fixed bilge keels does not have that option. The large single deep keel, with wineglass cross-section across the beam makes a boat that can lay 60 degrees over and lose effective grip on both the air and the water and give way on its side when overwhelmed. Yes, if the lower rail goes under, one can get tremendous tripping forces, putting it the rest of the way. Really heavy cruising motorcycles have all sorts of low side projections that seem really handily placed to act as a series of fulcrums -- intermediate contact points -- so that one does not have to be Hercules to lift them from a dropped position. All the benefits of a bilge keel also seem, in the wrong conditions, to be assistive devices to make it easier for the wind and sea to roll the boat. Further, if it were ever to fall over on a beach, these devices become greater impediments to righting the boat. Worst case, if a single keeler lays over on its side, on a beach, if its companionway is centrally located, it is possible it might be floated vertical again without taking water, particularly if it is reoriented keel down-slope on a sloping beach. Even if not, I can see a use for heavy plastic sheeting and rolls of really sticky tape, like Tuck tape, to seal all of the topside openings for a couple of hours until the boat regained enough flotation to start to right itself. If a bilge keeler goes over, which is admittedly harder, but if it does, one better start digging a hole for one keel, or it seems far less likely it might be re-floated without flooding. The plastic sheet and Tuck tape solution is still an option. Bilge keelers and the advantage to beach them on remote beaches reminds me of a saying about 4x4 vehicles -- they are the best way to get stuck really badly, really far out, when things go wrong. However, all that aside, I find the claimed 15-20% performance boost, combined with the ability to beach in favourable conditions with a great deal less preparation, might be the pluses that make me reconsider bilge keelers as a class. A bilge board boat -- if one is building from scratch and has the opportunity to include innovative features -- seems a far easier way to gain the hydrodynamic and performance advantages (like Open 60s do). If the bilge boards are robust enough, they could be beach legs, providing that advantage of a bilge keeler too. When the bilge boards are a liability, retract them. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 9:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel? Matt, Your points are well taken, but if I had to leave a boat unattended for a number of tide cycles, or if bottom conditions were gnarly, I still think that twin keels would be preferable. I suppose one could go with a belt-and-suspenders approach and go both with twin keels AND sheer legs. 8-) I'm hoping Brent will weigh in on the topic, both the value of twin keels over single keels, as well as the viability of converting a fin keeler to a twin/bilge keeler. For what it's worth, here is an argument someone has made regarding the hydrodynamics of bilge keels. http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Consider that the boat floats, all of the weight is above the bottom of the twin keels, and the separation between the keels is small in comparison to every other dimension of the boat. It is not hard to see that in the wrong conditions one could end up on one side even with twin keels. One big wave at the wrong moment, and some trip hazard on the bottom. It is probable one would have to be more careful with shear legs, depending on the design. But again, depending on design, they might provide far wider footing and more stability. There is no limit to ingenuity for something that does not have to be part of the hull form at all times. Matt | 35061|35044|2018-05-01 12:53:52|rockrothwell|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|I put together a desugn for single leg with 2" cargo straps too..... but where do you put it? That's what killed it 4 me. Stowage. If you can just find a grid.......| 35062|35044|2018-05-01 17:35:07|Darren Bos|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers| Matt, I had a twin keeler for many years.Â I prefer the term bilge keel to refer to the earliest versions of the design concept which had stubbier keels placed laterally, often in addition to a keel on the centreline, while the term twin keel refers the the later evolution of the the design where you see higher aspect ratio keels with only two keels spread and oriented so that they don't suffer the hydrodynamic interference suffered by many bilge keelers. There are lots of twin keel boats that take to ground at anchor, or at moorings, every tidal cycle regardless of conditions.Â Tipping over is not much of a risk as long as you are on a suitable bottom.Â I did once unintentionally get the bow of my boat to tip down by carelessly stacking a great deal of stuff on the bow and then walking forward myself.Â Walking aft restored it to it more dignified pose without any damage. On 18-05-01 08:19 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â John, The article is definitely interesting and raised many points, many pluses, that are new to me. Â Â Â John's link again is here: http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html I recall the bilge keeler that was entered into the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race was judged to be entirely unsuitable as an actively sailing open ocean racer in the expected conditions even by modern commentators by virtue of the fact that it was a bilge keeler alone.Â They must have been seeing something about that boat in particular, that was not representative of the class of boats, or some aspect that outweighed the efficiency gains possible according to this article. Â Â I note that one of the photos in the article looks like a Colin Archer deep hull/keel, with an over-sized fin/small bilge keel sticking out. Â So that would be a tri-keel ? Â If this qualifies as a bilge keel, instead of a "bilge fin" then it is less surprising that possibly different designs can have the list of benefits given in the article ... but then it is still possible that no one design can have all of the listed advantages. Â I did not see anything about robustness against gusts.Â A single keel boat loses both sail effectiveness and keel effectiveness as it heels. Â This will make an-already heeled single keeler in equilibrium with average conditions less responsive to sudden gusts, and this may be a good thing.Â Â This allows the excessive energy of the gust to spill away with less affect on the boat.Â It sounds more comfortable to me both in the reassurance sense that there is robustness, and in the literal comfort sense. On the other hand, the twin bilge keeler, whose one keel has yet to reach vertical, experiences increased effectiveness in a gust. Â One would have to trim the boat differently and perhaps reef more to compensate. Â If one sailed a twin keeler in the same way as a single keeler in highly variable gusts, it would be easier to catch one that tested the boat's stability margin to a greater extent.Â On the other hand, the bilge keeler may be able toÂ harness more of the energy of these gusts into sailing, instead of letting it wastefully spill away. Â A plus and a minus... which to choose... Â I did not see anything about tripping to capsize, heavy seas etc, certainly a tiny fraction of the time for a boat, but something that usually enters discussions about design differences.Â Â If these are not the minuses of the design (all designs have pluses and minuses) that some might imagine, then I would like to hear what the truth is. Â It would be fair to address these points in a comprehensive article. Â Â The article also talked of bilge boards (retractable) instead of bilge keels. Â The catamaran defense to unpredictable conditions of retracting keel boards and allowing the boat to skate sideways across the water in unexpected high lateral loads is one approach allowed by a variable form boat. Â A boat with fixed bilge keels does not have that option. Â The large single deep keel, with wineglass cross-section across the beam makes a boat that can lay 60 degrees over and lose effective grip on both the air and the water and give way on its side when overwhelmed. Â Yes, if the lower rail goes under, one can get tremendous tripping forces, putting it the rest of the way.Â Really heavy cruising motorcycles have all sorts of low side projections that seem really handily placed to act as a series of fulcrums -- intermediate contact points -- so that one does not have to be Hercules to lift them from a dropped position. Â All the benefits of a bilge keel also seem, in the wrong conditions, to be assistive devices to make it easier for the wind and sea to roll the boat. Â Further, if it were ever to fall over on a beach, these devices become greater impediments to righting the boat. Â Worst case, if a single keeler lays over on its side, on a beach, if its companionway is centrally located, it is possible it might be floated vertical again without taking water, particularly if it is reoriented keel down-slope on a sloping beach.Â Even if not, I can see a use for heavy plastic sheeting and rolls of really sticky tape, like Tuck tape, to seal all of the topside openings for a couple of hours until the boat regained enough flotation to start to right itself.Â If a bilge keeler goes over, which is admittedly harder, but if it does, one better start digging a hole for one keel, or it seems far less likely it might be re-floated without flooding. Â The plastic sheet and Tuck tape solution is still an option. Â Bilge keelers and the advantage to beach them on remote beaches reminds me of a saying about 4x4 vehicles -- they are the best way to get stuck really badly, really far out, when things go wrong. Â However, all that aside, I find the claimed 15-20% performance boost, combined with the ability to beach in favourable conditions with a great deal less preparation, might be the pluses that make me reconsider bilge keelers as a class. Â A bilge board boat -- if one is building from scratch and has the opportunity to include innovative features -- seems a far easier way to gain the hydrodynamic and performance advantages (like Open 60s do). Â If the bilge boards are robust enough, they could be beach legs, providing that advantage of a bilge keeler too. Â When the bilge boards are a liability, retract them. Â Matt | 35063|35044|2018-05-02 09:26:54|Matt Malone|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers| Thanks Darren, I had in mind not people who ground their bilge keelers on familiar ground, but those who might want to use that ability as they cruise. Most boats stick close to home, so, the ability to dry on familiar ground is the largest fraction of the advantage. By freeing owners from the services of a marina or drying grid the bilge keeler delivers substantial savings. It is like owning a 4x4 so you do not have to pay someone to plow the snow from your driveway. That is likely to keep it out of mud holes far from home. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 5:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers Matt, I had a twin keeler for many years. I prefer the term bilge keel to refer to the earliest versions of the design concept which had stubbier keels placed laterally, often in addition to a keel on the centreline, while the term twin keel refers the the later evolution of the the design where you see higher aspect ratio keels with only two keels spread and oriented so that they don't suffer the hydrodynamic interference suffered by many bilge keelers. There are lots of twin keel boats that take to ground at anchor, or at moorings, every tidal cycle regardless of conditions. Tipping over is not much of a risk as long as you are on a suitable bottom. I did once unintentionally get the bow of my boat to tip down by carelessly stacking a great deal of stuff on the bow and then walking forward myself. Walking aft restored it to it more dignified pose without any damage. On 18-05-01 08:19 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: John, The article is definitely interesting and raised many points, many pluses, that are new to me. John's link again is here: http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html I recall the bilge keeler that was entered into the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race was judged to be entirely unsuitable as an actively sailing open ocean racer in the expected conditions even by modern commentators by virtue of the fact that it was a bilge keeler alone. They must have been seeing something about that boat in particular, that was not representative of the class of boats, or some aspect that outweighed the efficiency gains possible according to this article. I note that one of the photos in the article looks like a Colin Archer deep hull/keel, with an over-sized fin/small bilge keel sticking out. So that would be a tri-keel ? If this qualifies as a bilge keel, instead of a "bilge fin" then it is less surprising that possibly different designs can have the list of benefits given in the article ... but then it is still possible that no one design can have all of the listed advantages. I did not see anything about robustness against gusts. A single keel boat loses both sail effectiveness and keel effectiveness as it heels. This will make an-already heeled single keeler in equilibrium with average conditions less responsive to sudden gusts, and this may be a good thing. This allows the excessive energy of the gust to spill away with less affect on the boat. It sounds more comfortable to me both in the reassurance sense that there is robustness, and in the literal comfort sense. On the other hand, the twin bilge keeler, whose one keel has yet to reach vertical, experiences increased effectiveness in a gust. One would have to trim the boat differently and perhaps reef more to compensate. If one sailed a twin keeler in the same way as a single keeler in highly variable gusts, it would be easier to catch one that tested the boat's stability margin to a greater extent. On the other hand, the bilge keeler may be able to harness more of the energy of these gusts into sailing, instead of letting it wastefully spill away. A plus and a minus... which to choose... I did not see anything about tripping to capsize, heavy seas etc, certainly a tiny fraction of the time for a boat, but something that usually enters discussions about design differences. If these are not the minuses of the design (all designs have pluses and minuses) that some might imagine, then I would like to hear what the truth is. It would be fair to address these points in a comprehensive article. The article also talked of bilge boards (retractable) instead of bilge keels. The catamaran defense to unpredictable conditions of retracting keel boards and allowing the boat to skate sideways across the water in unexpected high lateral loads is one approach allowed by a variable form boat. A boat with fixed bilge keels does not have that option. The large single deep keel, with wineglass cross-section across the beam makes a boat that can lay 60 degrees over and lose effective grip on both the air and the water and give way on its side when overwhelmed. Yes, if the lower rail goes under, one can get tremendous tripping forces, putting it the rest of the way. Really heavy cruising motorcycles have all sorts of low side projections that seem really handily placed to act as a series of fulcrums -- intermediate contact points -- so that one does not have to be Hercules to lift them from a dropped position. All the benefits of a bilge keel also seem, in the wrong conditions, to be assistive devices to make it easier for the wind and sea to roll the boat. Further, if it were ever to fall over on a beach, these devices become greater impediments to righting the boat. Worst case, if a single keeler lays over on its side, on a beach, if its companionway is centrally located, it is possible it might be floated vertical again without taking water, particularly if it is reoriented keel down-slope on a sloping beach. Even if not, I can see a use for heavy plastic sheeting and rolls of really sticky tape, like Tuck tape, to seal all of the topside openings for a couple of hours until the boat regained enough flotation to start to right itself. If a bilge keeler goes over, which is admittedly harder, but if it does, one better start digging a hole for one keel, or it seems far less likely it might be re-floated without flooding. The plastic sheet and Tuck tape solution is still an option. Bilge keelers and the advantage to beach them on remote beaches reminds me of a saying about 4x4 vehicles -- they are the best way to get stuck really badly, really far out, when things go wrong. However, all that aside, I find the claimed 15-20% performance boost, combined with the ability to beach in favourable conditions with a great deal less preparation, might be the pluses that make me reconsider bilge keelers as a class. A bilge board boat -- if one is building from scratch and has the opportunity to include innovative features -- seems a far easier way to gain the hydrodynamic and performance advantages (like Open 60s do). If the bilge boards are robust enough, they could be beach legs, providing that advantage of a bilge keeler too. When the bilge boards are a liability, retract them. Matt | 35064|35044|2018-05-02 10:36:48|Darren Bos|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers| We took to shore with our twin keel in more than a few different spots.Â If you scope out the area at the previous low tide, I don't think things are much different if you are out cruising than if you are close to home. On 18-05-02 06:25 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Thanks Darren, I had in mind not people who ground their bilge keelers on familiar ground, but those who might want to use that ability as they cruise. Â Most boats stick close to home, so, the ability to dry on familiar ground is the largest fraction of the advantage.Â By freeing owners from the services of a marina or drying grid the bilge keeler delivers substantial savings. Â It is like owning a 4x4 so you do not have to pay someone to plow the snow from your driveway. Â That is likely to keep it out of mud holes far from home. Â Matt | 35065|35043|2018-05-02 14:07:57|jason wilson|Re: 36 single keeler for sale|That listing says it was flagged for removal. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 2:25 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Here is one of my 36 footers for sale. The owner, an Alaskan, has cruised to Australia and back in her. Now he wants to build a twin keel version, for Alaska cruising and fishing. https://anchorage.craigslist.org/boa/d/brent-swain-36-pilothouse/6560698726.html #ygrps-yiv-1307377623 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331 -- #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1307377623 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1307377623 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1307377623 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1307377623 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1307377623yiv0994729331ygrp-mkp 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Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 2:25 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Here is one of my 36 footers for sale. The owner, an Alaskan, has cruised to Australia and back in her. 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#ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725yiv0994729331ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1692301139 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725yiv0994729331ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1692301139 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725yiv0994729331 #ygrps-yiv-1692301139ygrps-yiv-1478835725yiv0994729331ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 35067|35044|2018-05-02 14:37:29|brentswain38|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|Allen Farrell scoped out 20 anchorages in one area alone, which are off limits to boats which cant dry out. People have told me that most of the Queensland coast's fully protected anchorages are up rivers, usable only to boats which can dry out . Ditto most of the east coast of South Africa. Having not had to pay moorage on my current boat for 34 years, is largely due to my ability to dry out. I put in sockets at the chine on single keelers, for sheerlegs. They are about 8 inches long, stainless sch 40 pipe, capped with stainless. The inside is gusseted to the hull for strength. I weld in flush ,half inch stainless acorn nuts, 2 1/2 ft ahead of the socket, and more , 2 1/2 ft towards the centreline, so I can bolt braces on the sheerlegs, if one is staying longer ,over several tides. That triangulates things , much stronger.Such sheerlegs are shorter, and thus easier to stow. They also don't need lines to hold them in place, as the tide goes out. For occasional use, they can be aluminium . Oval feet on the bottom can have holes in them, to nail planks to for softer bottoms. Run them verticaly, as that is the direction of the load on them .Don't flare them out at the bottom. I put them well ahead of the longitudinal centre of gravity, at the front of the chines. No chance of the bow going down ,that way. With 8 ft of keel in the mud ,not much chance of her turning. Still better to scout out harder bottoms. Gravel is best.However, for long term dry moorage, nothing beats twin keels.I have left my twin keeler in drying anchorages, while flying to another country to build boats, no worries, something I wouldn't feel comfortable with, with sheerlegs . When a bit of swell runs in, pounding a bit at the right tide , I wouldn't feel to comfortable with sheerlegs. Changing from a single keel to twins would not be all that hard; for a bare hull, but once foamed ,it would n be a nightmare. You would have to scrape out a lot of foam and paint, and interior ,including where the transverse webs go , do your cutting and welding breathing the burning fumes of what was left , trying not to set things on fire, then put it all back.| 35068|35044|2018-05-02 14:41:05|brentswain38|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|I took the ballasted model and checked to see how far over she had to go, before tipping. Had to go a very long way ,past 45 degrees.| 35069|35044|2018-05-02 14:55:18|brentswain38|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|The first boat in the article ( the model) has badly designed twin keels, from a cruising standpoint. Get your anchor rode snagged between the keels and hooked on the back of one ,in strong winds, and getting it free can be extremely difficult; and dangerous if off a lee shore.Mr Bray had pictures of one in a Pacific Yachting article years ago, with the ballast bulbs continuing well aft, far beyond the keels,. I phoned him up, pointing out the dangers, and the keels in the second picture was the result, a huge improvement. Putting keels on board and trying to free a line fouled between them, makes it clear what works and what doesn't. A vertical one angled out at 25 degrees works ,more aft slope on the trailing edge helps more , but slope it forward, at the same slope as the leading edge and you have a problem.| 35070|35044|2018-05-02 17:50:18|opuspaul|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|Brent, I am curious about something. If I careened my single keeler, how high does the water come up the side or deck on my boat when laying/floating on it's side? I assume the water doesn't come anywhere near the portholes. Have you seen it done? Thanks, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I took the ballasted model and checked to see how far over she had to go, before tipping. Had to go a very long way ,past 45 degrees.| 35071|35044|2018-05-02 19:08:41|jhess314|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|Brent,Thanks for your comments regarding converting a single keel to a twin keel. I'm glad to know that structurally it would work, but I'm not surprised that removing part of the interior would be a huge job.John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Allen Farrell scoped out 20 anchorages in one area alone, which are off limits to boats which cant dry out. People have told me that most of the Queensland coast's fully protected anchorages are up rivers, usable only to boats which can dry out . Ditto most of the east coast of South Africa. Having not had to pay moorage on my current boat for 34 years, is largely due to my ability to dry out... Changing from a single keel to twins would not be all that hard; for a bare hull, but once foamed ,it would n be a nightmare. You would have to scrape out a lot of foam and paint, and interior ,including where the transverse webs go , do your cutting and welding breathing the burning fumes of what was left , trying not to set things on fire, then put it all back.| 35072|35044|2018-05-02 21:59:58|brentswain38|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|No chance of it reaching the port holes . However far it comes up going down, it comes up the same on a rising tide. Draw a line showing the angle you would reach on a flat surface at low tide ,on a drawing of your midships section. If you take a knock down to that angle, however far the water comes is how far the water would come when rising off a beach.| 35073|35044|2018-05-02 22:01:59|brentswain38|Re: Converting Fin Keel to Twin Keel?|Mike on Shinola stored sheer legs under the seat at his stern.| 35074|35044|2018-05-02 22:44:39|brentswain38|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1336222901 #ygrps-yiv-1336222901ygrps-yiv-66736979 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Theoretically bilge keels can trip ,but are higher up the deadrise, and shallower , more than compensating for that. The reason they didn't want a bilge keeler in the race was probably the same reason baboons automatically attack any tribe member who tries anything different from what has always been done. We are not as evolved as we pretend we are. Having done many Pacific crossings in mine, I see no disadvantage in seaworthiness. The motion is definitely far more comfortable, and the rolling far less.Two keels can be as fast as one, on most points of sail Steve raced Silas Crosby against , Exit a single keel 36 . They were matched on all points of sail ,except to windward, where the single keeler had about a 5% advantage over the twin keeler.Not worth giving up the advantages of twin keels for , in a cruising boat.Twin keels can be fast, tri keels are almost inevitably slow . Too much interaction between them. This can be avoided with twin keels by angling them out at 25 degrees. Those with twin vertical keels seem almost invariably slow, due to the huge interaction between them. Keels are best kept in the water. When the windward one breaks the surface, it gets noisy,and the drag increases drastically . The occasional breaking the surface doesn't matter much ,but you wouldn't want it to stay that way.Bluebird of Thorne drawings show asymetrical keels toed out slightly . It was tank tested, pushing it thru a tank from a fixed pin t,unlike a hull driven by sails, which is a completely different dynamic.Tank tests on keels toed in or out are completely irrelevant. Under sail ,if you want them toed in, just sheet her in a bit and point higher. Same thing! Toed out? Just ease the sheets and point her lower. Same thing! With toed in keesl , the deeper ,upright one would tend to round her up, screwing up balance and directional stability. I tried asymetricla keels on my first twin keelers, then went to symetrical, parallel ones . No noticeable difference under sail. Deridder's boat "Magic Dragon"began with asymetrical keels ,which was a disaster , until they converted them to symetrical . An aluminium Brewer design here is rumoured to have the same problem with asymetrical keels.Twin keelers like to be sailed upright. Beating home from Tonga thru the trades, tying a reef in the main would some times give me an extra 2 knots to windward. Felt slower, but was going much faster.Bilge boards are moving parts, ie. problems.John,The article is definitely interesting and raised many points, many pluses, that are new to me. John's link again is here: http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.htmlI recall the bilge keeler that was entered into the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race was judged to be entirely unsuitable as an actively sailing open ocean racer in the expected conditions even by modern commentators by virtue of the fact that it was a bilge keeler alone. They must have been seeing something about that boat in particular, that was not representative of the class of boats, or some aspect that outweighed the efficiency gains possible according to this article. I note that one of the photos in the article looks like a Colin Archer deep hull/keel, with an over-sized fin/small bilge keel sticking out. So that would be a tri-keel ? If this qualifies as a bilge keel, instead of a "bilge fin" then it is less surprising that possibly different designs can have the list of benefits given in the article ... but then it is still possible that no one design can have all of the listed advantages. I did not see anything about robustness against gusts. A single keel boat loses both sail effectiveness and keel effectiveness as it heels. This will make an-already heeled single keeler in equilibrium with average conditions less responsive to sudden gusts, and this may be a good thing. This allows the excessive energy of the gust to spill away with less affect on the boat. It sounds more comfortable to me both in the reassurance sense that there is robustness, and in the literal comfort sense.On the other hand, the twin bilge keeler, whose one keel has yet to reach vertical, experiences increased effectiveness in a gust. One would have to trim the boat differently and perhaps reef more to compensate. If one sailed a twin keeler in the same way as a single keeler in highly variable gusts, it would be easier to catch one that tested the boat's stability margin to a greater extent. On the other hand, the bilge keeler may be able to harness more of the energy of these gusts into sailing, instead of letting it wastefully spill away. A plus and a minus... which to choose... I did not see anything about tripping to capsize, heavy seas etc, certainly a tiny fraction of the time for a boat, but something that usually enters discussions about design differences. If these are not the minuses of the design (all designs have pluses and minuses) that some might imagine, then I would like to hear what the truth is. It would be fair to address these points in a comprehensive article. The article also talked of bilge boards (retractable) instead of bilge keels. The catamaran defense to unpredictable conditions of retracting keel boards and allowing the boat to skate sideways across the water in unexpected high lateral loads is one approach allowed by a variable form boat. A boat with fixed bilge keels does not have that option. The large single deep keel, with wineglass cross-section across the beam makes a boat that can lay 60 degrees over and lose effective grip on both the air and the water and give way on its side when overwhelmed. Yes, if the lower rail goes under, one can get tremendous tripping forces, putting it the rest of the way. Really heavy cruising motorcycles have all sorts of low side projections that seem really handily placed to act as a series of fulcrums -- intermediate contact points -- so that one does not have to be Hercules to lift them from a dropped position. All the benefits of a bilge keel also seem, in the wrong conditions, to be assistive devices to make it easier for the wind and sea to roll the boat. Further, if it were ever to fall over on a beach, these devices become greater impediments to righting the boat. Worst case, if a single keeler lays over on its side, on a beach, if its companionway is centrally located, it is possible it might be floated vertical again without taking water, particularly if it is reoriented keel down-slope on a sloping beach. Even if not, I can see a use for heavy plastic sheeting and rolls of really sticky tape, like Tuck tape, to seal all of the topside openings for a couple of hours until the boat regained enough flotation to start to right itself. If a bilge keeler goes over, which is admittedly harder, but if it does, one better start digging a hole for one keel, or it seems far less likely it might be re-floated without flooding. The plastic sheet and Tuck tape solution is still an option. Bilge keelers and the advantage to beach them on remote beaches reminds me of a saying about 4x4 vehicles -- they are the best way to get stuck really badly, really far out, when things go wrong. However, all that aside, I find the claimed 15-20% performance boost, combined with the ability to beach in favourable conditions with a great deal less preparation, might be the pluses that make me reconsider bilge keelers as a class. A bilge board boat -- if one is building from scratch and has the opportunity to include innovative features -- seems a far easier way to gain the hydrodynamic and performance advantages (like Open 60s do). If the bilge boards are robust enough, they could be beach legs, providing that advantage of a bilge keeler too. When the bilge boards are a liability, retract them. Matt | 35075|35044|2018-05-03 00:18:34|opuspaul|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|Good summary. I like my single keeler but not for any of the reasons you stated. I like it for the extra tankage I can carry deep and low in the single keel. My keel was 6 inches longer than the plans. I carry 90 gallons of fuel and over 120 gallons of water. This gives me a long range under power and enough water to have a shower and wash with fresh water without worrying too much about running a watermaker. All the weight is kept central and low. Most of the bilge keel boats I have been on have tanks under the seats or under the cockpit which in my mind ruins some of the best places for storage. If I was to build again, I would probably go single keel again unless it was a very big boat (>44 feet?) in which case I would consider bilge keels or a retractable keel. On smaller boats, you have more options but with bigger boats it becomes more limited. Saving haulout fees on a boat 45 or 50 feet long can be a huge advantage on a big boat. Tankage is not much of a problem. I would consider a telescoping dagger board with a weighted bulb or a ballasted centerboard. Engineering is a challenge but it can be done. You can then still beach your boat easily but retain good performance with a low wetted surface area and a deep keel for going to windward. It wouldn't be these boats below but these give you and idea of the configurations I like.....http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Mq4oVQRZwFWIW, racing two boats against each other doesn't prove much unless all other factors are identical....sails, trim, mast, and having a clean bottom mean a lot. When I did club racing many years ago, there were a few identical C & C 35's racing. One of them was always much faster than the other due to the helming by the skipper. It had nothing to do with the boat. Having said that, a clean bottom on the boat makes a huge difference...as much as 2 or 3 knots with a badly fouled hull. I think being able to clean the bottom easily is one of the biggest advantage in performance of bilge keel boats.| 35076|35044|2018-05-03 15:35:51|brentswain38|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|Yes, you do get a lot of tankage in a single keeler. Most 36 ft bilge keelers I've built had a nearly 100 gallon water tank between the keels, and a fuel tank under the wheelhouse floor. You need a wheelhouse, to put a good sized fuel tank under the wheelhouse floor, which more than offsets the weight of the wheelhouse. Both drastically improve the AVS angle.| 35077|35044|2018-05-05 17:03:19|brentswain38|Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers|One important thing one should not under estimate, is how much reinforcing one should put at the aft end of the keels, where they meet the hull.Any impact on the keels in a collision with a rock, will put a huge impact on that area, forcing it upwards into the hull.| 35078|35044|2018-05-10 08:59:38|Matt Malone|Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 12:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers Good summary. I like my single keeler but not for any of the reasons you stated. I like it for the extra tankage I can carry deep and low in the single keel. My keel was 6 inches longer than the plans. I carry 90 gallons of fuel and over 120 gallons of water. This gives me a long range under power and enough water to have a shower and wash with fresh water without worrying too much about running a watermaker. All the weight is kept central and low. Most of the bilge keel boats I have been on have tanks under the seats or under the cockpit which in my mind ruins some of the best places for storage. If I was to build again, I would probably go single keel again unless it was a very big boat (>44 feet?) in which case I would consider bilge keels or a retractable keel. On smaller boats, you have more options but with bigger boats it becomes more limited. Saving haulout fees on a boat 45 or 50 feet long can be a huge advantage on a big boat. Tankage is not much of a problem. I would consider a telescoping dagger board with a weighted bulb or a ballasted centerboard. Engineering is a challenge but it can be done. You can then still beach your boat easily but retain good performance with a low wetted surface area and a deep keel for going to windward. It wouldn't be these boats below but these give you and idea of the configurations I like..... http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Mq4oVQRZw FWIW, racing two boats against each other doesn't prove much unless all other factors are identical....sails, trim, mast, and having a clean bottom mean a lot. When I did club racing many years ago, there were a few identical C & C 35's racing. One of them was always much faster than the other due to the helming by the skipper. It had nothing to do with the boat. Having said that, a clean bottom on the boat makes a huge difference...as much as 2 or 3 knots with a badly fouled hull. I think being able to clean the bottom easily is one of the biggest advantage in performance of bilge keel boats. | 35079|35044|2018-05-10 09:07:44|garyhlucas|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. LucasHave you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 12:18 AMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers Good summary. I like my single keeler but not for any of the reasons you stated. I like it for the extra tankage I can carry deep and low in the single keel. My keel was 6 inches longer than the plans. I carry 90 gallons of fuel and over 120 gallons of water. This gives me a long range under power and enough water to have a shower and wash with fresh water without worrying too much about running a watermaker. All the weight is kept central and low. Most of the bilge keel boats I have been on have tanks under the seats or under the cockpit which in my mind ruins some of the best places for storage. If I was to build again, I would probably go single keel again unless it was a very big boat (>44 feet?) in which case I would consider bilge keels or a retractable keel. On smaller boats, you have more options but with bigger boats it becomes more limited. Saving haulout fees on a boat 45 or 50 feet long can be a huge advantage on a big boat. Tankage is not much of a problem. I would consider a telescoping dagger board with a weighted bulb or a ballasted centerboard. Engineering is a challenge but it can be done. You can then still beach your boat easily but retain good performance with a low wetted surface area and a deep keel for going to windward. It wouldn't be these boats below but these give you and idea of the configurations I like.....http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Mq4oVQRZwFWIW, racing two boats against each other doesn't prove much unless all other factors are identical....sails, trim, mast, and having a clean bottom mean a lot. When I did club racing many years ago, there were a few identical C & C 35's racing. One of them was always much faster than the other due to the helming by the skipper. It had nothing to do with the boat. Having said that, a clean bottom on the boat makes a huge difference...as much as 2 or 3 knots with a badly fouled hull. I think being able to clean the bottom easily is one of the biggest advantage in performance of bilge keel boats. | 35080|35044|2018-05-10 13:17:57|Matt Malone|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| Gary, in general you are correct. Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 12:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hydrodynamics of bilge keelers Good summary. I like my single keeler but not for any of the reasons you stated. I like it for the extra tankage I can carry deep and low in the single keel. My keel was 6 inches longer than the plans. I carry 90 gallons of fuel and over 120 gallons of water. This gives me a long range under power and enough water to have a shower and wash with fresh water without worrying too much about running a watermaker. All the weight is kept central and low. Most of the bilge keel boats I have been on have tanks under the seats or under the cockpit which in my mind ruins some of the best places for storage. If I was to build again, I would probably go single keel again unless it was a very big boat (>44 feet?) in which case I would consider bilge keels or a retractable keel. On smaller boats, you have more options but with bigger boats it becomes more limited. Saving haulout fees on a boat 45 or 50 feet long can be a huge advantage on a big boat. Tankage is not much of a problem. I would consider a telescoping dagger board with a weighted bulb or a ballasted centerboard. Engineering is a challenge but it can be done. You can then still beach your boat easily but retain good performance with a low wetted surface area and a deep keel for going to windward. It wouldn't be these boats below but these give you and idea of the configurations I like..... http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Mq4oVQRZw FWIW, racing two boats against each other doesn't prove much unless all other factors are identical....sails, trim, mast, and having a clean bottom mean a lot. When I did club racing many years ago, there were a few identical C & C 35's racing. One of them was always much faster than the other due to the helming by the skipper. It had nothing to do with the boat. Having said that, a clean bottom on the boat makes a huge difference...as much as 2 or 3 knots with a badly fouled hull. I think being able to clean the bottom easily is one of the biggest advantage in performance of bilge keel boats. | 35081|35044|2018-05-10 21:39:35|opuspaul|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2015304941 #ygrps-yiv-2015304941ygrps-yiv-762848690 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Gary, in general you are correct. Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35082|35044|2018-05-11 11:01:30|Matt Malone|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| I guess I was unclear... I understood the BS26 to be made from 3/16" sheet. It is unclear why 3/16" would be OK for a BS26, but distort if it was formed into a smaller boat. I am not asking about 22 gauge sheet here. Yes, as Gary pointed out going with thick steel, the boat would be heavy, but so long as it sails reliably, can be carried on the trailer and towed easily, and confers the benefit of steel, I accept that penalty. I do not know of any used steel sailboats with a closed cabin in the range of 16-18 feet. I do not have either the experience or equipment to weld aluminium. Even aluminium scrap is really expensive and I have yet to see it in a stack of big sheets in a scrap yard. In contrast, a pile of scrap steel sheets going cheap has been located, hence my question. I was asking the question here to avoid the use of a fibreglass boat of any sort if possible. In this size there are three types of fibreglass boats: - thin boats made of woven mat -- I have on old one -- and for its weight it is strongish. Unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock, no thank you. - thick boats that are mostly resin because it is a chopper gun boat -- no thank you. - thick solid woven mat boats -- The only ones I have seen are shaped like tiny offshore racing boats that one sits on. They have a fixed keel with only sail lockers below, i.e., no cabin at all -- no thank you. Now if I could find a thick solid woven mat fibreglass sailboat boat (built heavy like a modern commercial lifeboat) that could hit a few point rocks (not too hard), and probably not sink, if I could find one for less than the cost of a pile of scrap steel sheet, I sure would consider it. These are rare and appreciated boats and $1,500 is already more than the cost of the steel. On the point of one can buy a used anything for less than the cost of materials -- equally true for most owner-built boats, and many capable solid robust older fibreglass production boats that have become a burden to someone else. This is less true of small boats that go easily on trailers in someone's backyard. There is no yearly marina fee driving down the asking price. One can get a robust solid glass boat of 30-40 feet for substantially less than $10,000 and it will weigh 8-10 tonnes. A 16-18 foot crap-glass trailer boat will go for more than $1,000 and weigh less than 0.5 tonnes. The trailer boat is just sitting on a trailer in the back yard, not costing them a dime, no pressure to sell. Why would they sell for $500, they would sooner see it rot on the trailer -- I know I do. Then there is plywood... Fibreglass is literally 10 times stronger when it is done correctly -- I know there are plywood boats, and very thin ones but, unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock -- no thank you. I really want the benefit of steel if it is possible. Again, I thought it was a fair question to Brent, and if the answer is no, then, it is no. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Gary, in general you are correct. Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35083|35044|2018-05-11 12:41:01|mountain man|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| The Tom Thumb is 24 feet and in steel De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 11 mai 2018 11:01:27 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I guess I was unclear... I understood the BS26 to be made from 3/16" sheet. It is unclear why 3/16" would be OK for a BS26, but distort if it was formed into a smaller boat. I am not asking about 22 gauge sheet here. Yes, as Gary pointed out going with thick steel, the boat would be heavy, but so long as it sails reliably, can be carried on the trailer and towed easily, and confers the benefit of steel, I accept that penalty. I do not know of any used steel sailboats with a closed cabin in the range of 16-18 feet. I do not have either the experience or equipment to weld aluminium. Even aluminium scrap is really expensive and I have yet to see it in a stack of big sheets in a scrap yard. In contrast, a pile of scrap steel sheets going cheap has been located, hence my question. I was asking the question here to avoid the use of a fibreglass boat of any sort if possible. In this size there are three types of fibreglass boats: - thin boats made of woven mat -- I have on old one -- and for its weight it is strongish. Unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock, no thank you. - thick boats that are mostly resin because it is a chopper gun boat -- no thank you. - thick solid woven mat boats -- The only ones I have seen are shaped like tiny offshore racing boats that one sits on. They have a fixed keel with only sail lockers below, i.e., no cabin at all -- no thank you. Now if I could find a thick solid woven mat fibreglass sailboat boat (built heavy like a modern commercial lifeboat) that could hit a few point rocks (not too hard), and probably not sink, if I could find one for less than the cost of a pile of scrap steel sheet, I sure would consider it. These are rare and appreciated boats and $1,500 is already more than the cost of the steel. On the point of one can buy a used anything for less than the cost of materials -- equally true for most owner-built boats, and many capable solid robust older fibreglass production boats that have become a burden to someone else. This is less true of small boats that go easily on trailers in someone's backyard. There is no yearly marina fee driving down the asking price. One can get a robust solid glass boat of 30-40 feet for substantially less than $10,000 and it will weigh 8-10 tonnes. A 16-18 foot crap-glass trailer boat will go for more than $1,000 and weigh less than 0.5 tonnes. The trailer boat is just sitting on a trailer in the back yard, not costing them a dime, no pressure to sell. Why would they sell for $500, they would sooner see it rot on the trailer -- I know I do. Then there is plywood... Fibreglass is literally 10 times stronger when it is done correctly -- I know there are plywood boats, and very thin ones but, unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock -- no thank you. I really want the benefit of steel if it is possible. Again, I thought it was a fair question to Brent, and if the answer is no, then, it is no. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Gary, in general you are correct. Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35084|35044|2018-05-11 13:00:43|rockrothwell|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|26 feet is fine for offshore work. I have seen Thunderbird's in Manila and Sydney.| 35085|35044|2018-05-11 14:26:39|Matt Malone|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| The Tom Thumb is 24' LWL, 26' LOA: https://www.finelineboatplans.com/bruce-roberts-tom-thumb-26-boat-plan It is also 9,000 pounds, plus another 1,000 pounds for a trailer and that is at the very limit for a 3/4 ton pickup, complicated brakes, etc. Not exactly a casual vacation tow. At this moment, given the choice between a Tom Thumb 26 and a BS 26, I would choose a BS26 that Brent said was well built. The question was for a much smaller and lighter boat built in steel shaped like this: Similar to the Hunter 490 (1,000 lbs, likely cored fibreglass), but with more cabin, less cockpit... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5949 Like this (1,350 lbs unknown fibreglass) but steel... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5716 I have this one (480 pounds, much thinner single layer but woven fiberglass) with only a cuddy, not an enclosed cabin: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7784 To use like this (1,600 lbs, constructed of 1" of plywood): http://www.microcruising.com/lc1.htm If a smaller origami design exists anywhere in Brent's papers, and maybe not as well known as his others, I would like to hear about it. A steel boat like this could be built entirely within a single-car garage in the suburbs in any town in North America... No outdoor work yard is needed. So what if it weighs 2,000-3,000 pounds (16-18 feet), all fitted out, in steel, it will still float. At scrap prices, that is $1,000 in steel. Try buying a trailerable P.O.S. fibreglass boat, let alone a good one, for $1,000. So what if it is not a year round live-aboard like Brent's bigger boats. With a retractable bulb or delta wing keel, it would go on a trailer very easily, launch shallow, sail fearlessly, beach it anywhere, go for a week at a time. Any story Brent can tell about a BS26 pounding across a reef, by the physics of scaling, assuming the same metal thickness is used in this boat, this smaller, lighter, tougher little boat could laugh at the same reef. Try that with plywood or fibreglass. Certainly people can see a niche for that ? Certainly people who only get a North American 2-3 week vacation can understand that ? Yes, the "real" cruisers of 26' and larger are way better, but they are a different class of boat. I am starting to wonder, have I finally found an anarchist boating concept that is too far out there to be acceptable on Origamiboats, which is itself apparently too far out there for a site called Cruising Anarchy ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 12:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? The Tom Thumb is 24 feet and in steel De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 11 mai 2018 11:01:27 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I guess I was unclear... I understood the BS26 to be made from 3/16" sheet. It is unclear why 3/16" would be OK for a BS26, but distort if it was formed into a smaller boat. I am not asking about 22 gauge sheet here. Yes, as Gary pointed out going with thick steel, the boat would be heavy, but so long as it sails reliably, can be carried on the trailer and towed easily, and confers the benefit of steel, I accept that penalty. I do not know of any used steel sailboats with a closed cabin in the range of 16-18 feet. I do not have either the experience or equipment to weld aluminium. Even aluminium scrap is really expensive and I have yet to see it in a stack of big sheets in a scrap yard. In contrast, a pile of scrap steel sheets going cheap has been located, hence my question. I was asking the question here to avoid the use of a fibreglass boat of any sort if possible. In this size there are three types of fibreglass boats: - thin boats made of woven mat -- I have on old one -- and for its weight it is strongish. Unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock, no thank you. - thick boats that are mostly resin because it is a chopper gun boat -- no thank you. - thick solid woven mat boats -- The only ones I have seen are shaped like tiny offshore racing boats that one sits on. They have a fixed keel with only sail lockers below, i.e., no cabin at all -- no thank you. Now if I could find a thick solid woven mat fibreglass sailboat boat (built heavy like a modern commercial lifeboat) that could hit a few point rocks (not too hard), and probably not sink, if I could find one for less than the cost of a pile of scrap steel sheet, I sure would consider it. These are rare and appreciated boats and $1,500 is already more than the cost of the steel. On the point of one can buy a used anything for less than the cost of materials -- equally true for most owner-built boats, and many capable solid robust older fibreglass production boats that have become a burden to someone else. This is less true of small boats that go easily on trailers in someone's backyard. There is no yearly marina fee driving down the asking price. One can get a robust solid glass boat of 30-40 feet for substantially less than $10,000 and it will weigh 8-10 tonnes. A 16-18 foot crap-glass trailer boat will go for more than $1,000 and weigh less than 0.5 tonnes. The trailer boat is just sitting on a trailer in the back yard, not costing them a dime, no pressure to sell. Why would they sell for $500, they would sooner see it rot on the trailer -- I know I do. Then there is plywood... Fibreglass is literally 10 times stronger when it is done correctly -- I know there are plywood boats, and very thin ones but, unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock -- no thank you. I really want the benefit of steel if it is possible. Again, I thought it was a fair question to Brent, and if the answer is no, then, it is no. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Gary, in general you are correct.. Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35086|35044|2018-05-11 14:40:13|Jfisher|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|Matt,I know of one welsford sweet pea that was welded up from aluminum. It's a 17 ft small cabin cruiser. Not sure what it weighed or how it sailed. I think there are quite a few small ply boats that might be suitable to weld up in aluminum. Have you looked at Jim michalaks catalog of designs? I think steel gets too heavy in a thickness that will hold it shape. JohnSent from my iPad On May 11, 2018, at 12:26, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: The Tom Thumb is 24' LWL, 26' LOA: https://www.finelineboatplans.com/bruce-roberts-tom-thumb-26-boat-plan It is also 9,000 pounds, plus another 1,000 pounds for a trailer and that is at the very limit for a 3/4 ton pickup, complicated brakes, etc. Not exactly a casual vacation tow. At this moment, given the choice between a Tom Thumb 26 and a BS 26, I would choose a BS26 that Brent said was well built. The question was for a much smaller and lighter boat built in steel shaped like this: Similar to the Hunter 490 (1,000 lbs, likely cored fibreglass), but with more cabin, less cockpit... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5949 Like this (1,350 lbs unknown fibreglass) but steel... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5716 I have this one (480 pounds, much thinner single layer but woven fiberglass) with only a cuddy, not an enclosed cabin: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7784 To use like this (1,600 lbs, constructed of 1" of plywood): http://www.microcruising.com/lc1.htm If a smaller origami design exists anywhere in Brent's papers, and maybe not as well known as his others, I would like to hear about it. A steel boat like this could be built entirely within a single-car garage in the suburbs in any town in North America... No outdoor work yard is needed. So what if it weighs 2,000-3,000 pounds (16-18 feet), all fitted out, in steel, it will still float. At scrap prices, that is $1,000 in steel. Try buying a trailerable P.O.S. fibreglass boat, let alone a good one, for $1,000. So what if it is not a year round live-aboard like Brent's bigger boats. With a retractable bulb or delta wing keel, it would go on a trailer very easily, launch shallow, sail fearlessly, beach it anywhere, go for a week at a time. Any story Brent can tell about a BS26 pounding across a reef, by the physics of scaling, assuming the same metal thickness is used in this boat, this smaller, lighter, tougher little boat could laugh at the same reef. Try that with plywood or fibreglass. Certainly people can see a niche for that ? Certainly people who only get a North American 2-3 week vacation can understand that ? Yes, the "real" cruisers of 26' and larger are way better, but they are a different class of boat. I am starting to wonder, have I finally found an anarchist boating concept that is too far out there to be acceptable on Origamiboats, which is itself apparently too far out there for a site called Cruising Anarchy ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 12:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? The Tom Thumb is 24 feet and in steel De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 11 mai 2018 11:01:27 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I guess I was unclear... I understood the BS26 to be made from 3/16" sheet. It is unclear why 3/16" would be OK for a BS26, but distort if it was formed into a smaller boat. I am not asking about 22 gauge sheet here. Yes, as Gary pointed out going with thick steel, the boat would be heavy, but so long as it sails reliably, can be carried on the trailer and towed easily, and confers the benefit of steel, I accept that penalty. I do not know of any used steel sailboats with a closed cabin in the range of 16-18 feet. I do not have either the experience or equipment to weld aluminium. Even aluminium scrap is really expensive and I have yet to see it in a stack of big sheets in a scrap yard. In contrast, a pile of scrap steel sheets going cheap has been located, hence my question. I was asking the question here to avoid the use of a fibreglass boat of any sort if possible. In this size there are three types of fibreglass boats: - thin boats made of woven mat -- I have on old one -- and for its weight it is strongish. Unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock, no thank you. - thick boats that are mostly resin because it is a chopper gun boat -- no thank you. - thick solid woven mat boats -- The only ones I have seen are shaped like tiny offshore racing boats that one sits on. They have a fixed keel with only sail lockers below, i.e., no cabin at all -- no thank you. Now if I could find a thick solid woven mat fibreglass sailboat boat (built heavy like a modern commercial lifeboat) that could hit a few point rocks (not too hard), and probably not sink, if I could find one for less than the cost of a pile of scrap steel sheet, I sure would consider it. These are rare and appreciated boats and $1,500 is already more than the cost of the steel. On the point of one can buy a used anything for less than the cost of materials -- equally true for most owner-built boats, and many capable solid robust older fibreglass production boats that have become a burden to someone else. This is less true of small boats that go easily on trailers in someone's backyard. There is no yearly marina fee driving down the asking price. One can get a robust solid glass boat of 30-40 feet for substantially less than $10,000 and it will weigh 8-10 tonnes. A 16-18 foot crap-glass trailer boat will go for more than $1,000 and weigh less than 0.5 tonnes. The trailer boat is just sitting on a trailer in the back yard, not costing them a dime, no pressure to sell. Why would they sell for $500, they would sooner see it rot on the trailer -- I know I do. Then there is plywood... Fibreglass is literally 10 times stronger when it is done correctly -- I know there are plywood boats, and very thin ones but, unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock -- no thank you. I really want the benefit of steel if it is possible. Again, I thought it was a fair question to Brent, and if the answer is no, then, it is no. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@yahoo..ca [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Gary, in general you are correct... Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35087|35044|2018-05-11 14:56:04|brentswain38|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-175134714 #ygrps-yiv-175134714ygrps-yiv-527436642 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}The smallest I have is 26 feet. She can be trailered anywhere , on a highway. She is the one Winston sailed thru the NW passage . One did the trip from BC to Australia ,no problems. She uses 6 ft by 27 ft 10 gauge plate, altho 11 gauge would work OK. For anything smaller, aluminium would be a better bet. I don't think I would go 1/4 inch on anything under 45 feet. My designs only go up to 40 feet. Don't see the point in anything bigger.Brent,Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ?Matt | 35088|35044|2018-05-11 18:36:30|Matt Malone|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| Thank you John, Those looks simple to build and interesting and the plans are cheap. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Matt, I know of one welsford sweet pea that was welded up from aluminum. It's a 17 ft small cabin cruiser. Not sure what it weighed or how it sailed. I think there are quite a few small ply boats that might be suitable to weld up in aluminum. Have you looked at Jim michalaks catalog of designs? I think steel gets too heavy in a thickness that will hold it shape. John Sent from my iPad On May 11, 2018, at 12:26, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: The Tom Thumb is 24' LWL, 26' LOA: https://www.finelineboatplans.com/bruce-roberts-tom-thumb-26-boat-plan It is also 9,000 pounds, plus another 1,000 pounds for a trailer and that is at the very limit for a 3/4 ton pickup, complicated brakes, etc. Not exactly a casual vacation tow. At this moment, given the choice between a Tom Thumb 26 and a BS 26, I would choose a BS26 that Brent said was well built. The question was for a much smaller and lighter boat built in steel shaped like this: Similar to the Hunter 490 (1,000 lbs, likely cored fibreglass), but with more cabin, less cockpit... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5949 Like this (1,350 lbs unknown fibreglass) but steel... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5716 I have this one (480 pounds, much thinner single layer but woven fiberglass) with only a cuddy, not an enclosed cabin: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7784 To use like this (1,600 lbs, constructed of 1" of plywood): http://www.microcruising.com/lc1.htm If a smaller origami design exists anywhere in Brent's papers, and maybe not as well known as his others, I would like to hear about it. A steel boat like this could be built entirely within a single-car garage in the suburbs in any town in North America... No outdoor work yard is needed. So what if it weighs 2,000-3,000 pounds (16-18 feet), all fitted out, in steel, it will still float. At scrap prices, that is $1,000 in steel. Try buying a trailerable P.O.S. fibreglass boat, let alone a good one, for $1,000. So what if it is not a year round live-aboard like Brent's bigger boats. With a retractable bulb or delta wing keel, it would go on a trailer very easily, launch shallow, sail fearlessly, beach it anywhere, go for a week at a time. Any story Brent can tell about a BS26 pounding across a reef, by the physics of scaling, assuming the same metal thickness is used in this boat, this smaller, lighter, tougher little boat could laugh at the same reef. Try that with plywood or fibreglass. Certainly people can see a niche for that ? Certainly people who only get a North American 2-3 week vacation can understand that ? Yes, the "real" cruisers of 26' and larger are way better, but they are a different class of boat. I am starting to wonder, have I finally found an anarchist boating concept that is too far out there to be acceptable on Origamiboats, which is itself apparently too far out there for a site called Cruising Anarchy ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 12:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? The Tom Thumb is 24 feet and in steel De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 11 mai 2018 11:01:27 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I guess I was unclear... I understood the BS26 to be made from 3/16" sheet. It is unclear why 3/16" would be OK for a BS26, but distort if it was formed into a smaller boat. I am not asking about 22 gauge sheet here. Yes, as Gary pointed out going with thick steel, the boat would be heavy, but so long as it sails reliably, can be carried on the trailer and towed easily, and confers the benefit of steel, I accept that penalty. I do not know of any used steel sailboats with a closed cabin in the range of 16-18 feet. I do not have either the experience or equipment to weld aluminium. Even aluminium scrap is really expensive and I have yet to see it in a stack of big sheets in a scrap yard. In contrast, a pile of scrap steel sheets going cheap has been located, hence my question. I was asking the question here to avoid the use of a fibreglass boat of any sort if possible. In this size there are three types of fibreglass boats: - thin boats made of woven mat -- I have on old one -- and for its weight it is strongish. Unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock, no thank you. - thick boats that are mostly resin because it is a chopper gun boat -- no thank you. - thick solid woven mat boats -- The only ones I have seen are shaped like tiny offshore racing boats that one sits on. They have a fixed keel with only sail lockers below, i.e., no cabin at all -- no thank you. Now if I could find a thick solid woven mat fibreglass sailboat boat (built heavy like a modern commercial lifeboat) that could hit a few point rocks (not too hard), and probably not sink, if I could find one for less than the cost of a pile of scrap steel sheet, I sure would consider it. These are rare and appreciated boats and $1,500 is already more than the cost of the steel. On the point of one can buy a used anything for less than the cost of materials -- equally true for most owner-built boats, and many capable solid robust older fibreglass production boats that have become a burden to someone else. This is less true of small boats that go easily on trailers in someone's backyard. There is no yearly marina fee driving down the asking price. One can get a robust solid glass boat of 30-40 feet for substantially less than $10,000 and it will weigh 8-10 tonnes. A 16-18 foot crap-glass trailer boat will go for more than $1,000 and weigh less than 0.5 tonnes. The trailer boat is just sitting on a trailer in the back yard, not costing them a dime, no pressure to sell. Why would they sell for $500, they would sooner see it rot on the trailer -- I know I do. Then there is plywood... Fibreglass is literally 10 times stronger when it is done correctly -- I know there are plywood boats, and very thin ones but, unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock -- no thank you. I really want the benefit of steel if it is possible. Again, I thought it was a fair question to Brent, and if the answer is no, then, it is no. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@yahoo..ca [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Gary, in general you are correct.... Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35089|35044|2018-05-11 18:52:08|Matt Malone|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?| Thank you Brent, the BS26 is far from the small project I was considering and more than I would want to tow further than the nearest launch that will get me to a seaway. For me that is between 50 and 100 miles. I appreciate it would also be far cheaper to pay someone to ship it cross-country because it would easily go on a gooseneck flatbed trailer one often sees a 1-ton pickup towing construction equipment on. It would not require a special boat moving trailer and a semitruck $$$. The BS26 hits the small-boat, standing headroom unbounded cruising niche very well. I followed Kim's construction with great interest. The extent of a 26 is beyond my time budget, and casual expenditure pocket book. It is not to be my big boat. I am going to look at some home built, hard-chine retractable keel designs. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The smallest I have is 26 feet. She can be trailered anywhere , on a highway. She is the one Winston sailed thru the NW passage . One did the trip from BC to Australia ,no problems. She uses 6 ft by 27 ft 10 gauge plate, altho 11 gauge would work OK. For anything smaller, aluminium would be a better bet. I don't think I would go 1/4 inch on anything under 45 feet. My designs only go up to 40 feet. Don't see the point in anything bigger. Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35090|35044|2018-05-11 19:03:52|Jfisher|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|I have plans for the toon 19. I have thought it might work for conversion to origami and maybe aluminum. If not I might just make it in ply for really shallow water cruising. Sent from my iPad On May 11, 2018, at 16:36, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Thank you John, Those looks simple to build and interesting and the plans are cheap. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jfisher jfisher577@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Matt, I know of one welsford sweet pea that was welded up from aluminum. It's a 17 ft small cabin cruiser. Not sure what it weighed or how it sailed. I think there are quite a few small ply boats that might be suitable to weld up in aluminum. Have you looked at Jim michalaks catalog of designs? I think steel gets too heavy in a thickness that will hold it shape. John Sent from my iPad On May 11, 2018, at 12:26, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: The Tom Thumb is 24' LWL, 26' LOA: https://www.finelineboatplans.com/bruce-roberts-tom-thumb-26-boat-plan It is also 9,000 pounds, plus another 1,000 pounds for a trailer and that is at the very limit for a 3/4 ton pickup, complicated brakes, etc. Not exactly a casual vacation tow. At this moment, given the choice between a Tom Thumb 26 and a BS 26, I would choose a BS26 that Brent said was well built. The question was for a much smaller and lighter boat built in steel shaped like this: Similar to the Hunter 490 (1,000 lbs, likely cored fibreglass), but with more cabin, less cockpit... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5949 Like this (1,350 lbs unknown fibreglass) but steel... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5716 I have this one (480 pounds, much thinner single layer but woven fiberglass) with only a cuddy, not an enclosed cabin: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7784 To use like this (1,600 lbs, constructed of 1" of plywood): http://www.microcruising.com/lc1.htm If a smaller origami design exists anywhere in Brent's papers, and maybe not as well known as his others, I would like to hear about it. A steel boat like this could be built entirely within a single-car garage in the suburbs in any town in North America... No outdoor work yard is needed. So what if it weighs 2,000-3,000 pounds (16-18 feet), all fitted out, in steel, it will still float. At scrap prices, that is $1,000 in steel. Try buying a trailerable P.O.S. fibreglass boat, let alone a good one, for $1,000. So what if it is not a year round live-aboard like Brent's bigger boats. With a retractable bulb or delta wing keel, it would go on a trailer very easily, launch shallow, sail fearlessly, beach it anywhere, go for a week at a time. Any story Brent can tell about a BS26 pounding across a reef, by the physics of scaling, assuming the same metal thickness is used in this boat, this smaller, lighter, tougher little boat could laugh at the same reef. Try that with plywood or fibreglass. Certainly people can see a niche for that ? Certainly people who only get a North American 2-3 week vacation can understand that ? Yes, the "real" cruisers of 26' and larger are way better, but they are a different class of boat. I am starting to wonder, have I finally found an anarchist boating concept that is too far out there to be acceptable on Origamiboats, which is itself apparently too far out there for a site called Cruising Anarchy ... Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 12:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? The Tom Thumb is 24 feet and in steel De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 11 mai 2018 11:01:27 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I guess I was unclear... I understood the BS26 to be made from 3/16" sheet. It is unclear why 3/16" would be OK for a BS26, but distort if it was formed into a smaller boat. I am not asking about 22 gauge sheet here. Yes, as Gary pointed out going with thick steel, the boat would be heavy, but so long as it sails reliably, can be carried on the trailer and towed easily, and confers the benefit of steel, I accept that penalty. I do not know of any used steel sailboats with a closed cabin in the range of 16-18 feet. I do not have either the experience or equipment to weld aluminium. Even aluminium scrap is really expensive and I have yet to see it in a stack of big sheets in a scrap yard. In contrast, a pile of scrap steel sheets going cheap has been located, hence my question. I was asking the question here to avoid the use of a fibreglass boat of any sort if possible. In this size there are three types of fibreglass boats: - thin boats made of woven mat -- I have on old one -- and for its weight it is strongish. Unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock, no thank you. - thick boats that are mostly resin because it is a chopper gun boat -- no thank you. - thick solid woven mat boats -- The only ones I have seen are shaped like tiny offshore racing boats that one sits on. They have a fixed keel with only sail lockers below, i.e., no cabin at all -- no thank you. Now if I could find a thick solid woven mat fibreglass sailboat boat (built heavy like a modern commercial lifeboat) that could hit a few point rocks (not too hard), and probably not sink, if I could find one for less than the cost of a pile of scrap steel sheet, I sure would consider it. These are rare and appreciated boats and $1,500 is already more than the cost of the steel. On the point of one can buy a used anything for less than the cost of materials -- equally true for most owner-built boats, and many capable solid robust older fibreglass production boats that have become a burden to someone else. This is less true of small boats that go easily on trailers in someone's backyard. There is no yearly marina fee driving down the asking price. One can get a robust solid glass boat of 30-40 feet for substantially less than $10,000 and it will weigh 8-10 tonnes. A 16-18 foot crap-glass trailer boat will go for more than $1,000 and weigh less than 0.5 tonnes. The trailer boat is just sitting on a trailer in the back yard, not costing them a dime, no pressure to sell. Why would they sell for $500, they would sooner see it rot on the trailer -- I know I do. Then there is plywood... Fibreglass is literally 10 times stronger when it is done correctly -- I know there are plywood boats, and very thin ones but, unfamiliar waters, one pointy rock -- no thank you. I really want the benefit of steel if it is possible. Again, I thought it was a fair question to Brent, and if the answer is no, then, it is no. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@yahoo..ca [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Gary is right. Thin steel sheet distorts too much when welded and is not stiff enough. It will need a lot of bracing and you still have to line it with something which adds a lot of weight on a small boat. Plywood (or possibly welded aluminum) construction is ideal for what you wish to do. I can honestly say though that if all you want is a trailer boat to use for a few weeks a year, you are much better off to buy something used. You will get it for less than the cost of materials to build something. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Gary, in general you are correct..... Yes, a boat that floats maybe a little lower than a solid glass hull -- the only hull worth comparing to a metal one -- will have different performance. However, if a solid glass hull with hardware and lines but no cargo in the 16-18 foot range weights 1-2 tons, that is potentially a lot of steel that is not that thin. Building in steel, one gains the advantage of steel. Lets consider 3/16" / 7 gauge. It is 3.4 kg / square foot. A tonne is 295 square feet. That is believably a 16 foot boat with a enclosed cabin and a 6 foot beam. I have a thin flimsy fibreglass boat that is that size and it weighs one quarter of that. Which would you rather tow on a vacation and launch into new-to-you coastal waters ? The 26 ft is a fine size, and has been demonstrated to be towable, but, not take it on-a-road-vacation-towable. What could one do with a 16-18 foot boat? Tow it on vacation. Where? Look at a map of North America and put a pin on any spot on the coast. After deducting for the road portion of the trip, one could easily go a couple hundred miles on the water in a week in a 16-18 foot boat. That puts a chunk of islands off the BC coast in range, the intercoastal on the east coast of the US, even the Bahamas from Florida. Yes, it might be heavy, or one could call it durable. And how many people can say they have visited half these places -- yes a lot of people here, but what fraction of 30 foot boat owners can say that? Why? They just did not have the time to sail their boat there, or the thousands to have it shipped there, and thousands to have it shipped back. Also, reducing the boat to 16-18 feet, with a sail duration of a week in mind, one can dispense with a lot of the complication that makes a 26 footer a project that is not finished. Outboard with pull-start, transom-hung rudder, no integrated tankage, one through-hull for the sink. A propane tank strap-down area, a quality ice cooler that starts with a block of ice, 3 cube-shaped 20L camping water jugs, strapped down. One solar panel, one AGM battery, and LED lighting. Stow a 12V trolling motor for emergencies under the cockpit. Everything is smaller, cheaper, less complicated. A 16-18 foot boat with some type of retractable keel also looks substantially smaller to border people, not like a ship. Of course it is coming back with us, we are not importing it -- an answer that is less convincing for a much larger boat. Brent has said a 26 will get one to Tahiti... a lot of us just don't have time for that right now. We may have a larger boat closer to home already. A smaller steel boat will get some people sailing further from home, sooner. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gary.lucas@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? I think the problem is that scale factor becomes a problem going much smaller with steel. As you get smaller the relative mass of the steel increases very fast until you wind up with either a very weak structure or a very heavy boat. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 8:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Smaller / Lighter than 26 ? Brent, Do you have a design smaller/lighter than 26 feet, and, what dimensions of steel sheets does it start with for the hull halves ? My scrap yard has a pile of steel sheet going cheap. I am hoping you will say 16 to 18 feet. I am hoping for something made with maybe 1 tonne of steel. Separately, what is the smallest size of your origami designs would be appropriate to build in 1/4 inch plate ? Matt | 35091|35044|2018-05-11 20:15:06|opuspaul|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|It sounds to me like a Tiki 21 would fit the bill. People have crossed oceans in them.https://www.wharram.com/site/self-build-boats/tiki21-design-competition-winnerI really think that you could find a used boat online for almost nothing but if I was building, I would also consider a ply flat bottom sailing dory or sharpie. There are many different designs. They are a very fast and easy build and still capable of going places with the right sailor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cuHFK8HXxI| 35092|35044|2018-05-11 20:45:34|opuspaul|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|The Core Sound 17 adn 20 are other very good designs. Core Sound designs are popular with some of the long coastal races like the Everglades (Watertribe) Challenge and the Race to Alaska. They can use water ballast which is a great idea for a trailer boat. I don't see why you couldn't do this with one of the other dory designs.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zUbj8M178Qhttp://bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17mk3/| 35093|35044|2018-05-12 13:59:44|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|An interesting design for a single handed ocean crosser is the Bolger designed "Colonel Hasler" .This is 20ft long and made from 1/8th plate.I'd love to build one but am probably too old.It is designed to be sailed from inside the boat as much as possible in accordance with Haslers principles for ocean crossing - minimal exposure to the elements.He won the original OSTAR using a norwegian folkboat and was an enthusiast for the junkrig - which I don't think that Brent is.If Brents 26 footer is readily trailable then that would probably be the way to go.CheersAndy Airey| 35094|35044|2018-05-12 21:51:25|Brian Stannard|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|Actually Chichester won the 1960 Ostar. Hasler was second out of 5 boats on Jester.Â On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 10:59 AM, ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â An interesting design for a single handed ocean crosser is the Bolger designed "Colonel Hasler" .This is 20ft long and made from 1/8th plate.I'd love to build one but am probably too old.It is designed to be sailed from inside the boat as much as possible in accordance with Haslers principles for ocean crossing - minimal exposure to the elements.He won the original OSTAR using a norwegian folkboat and was an enthusiast for the junkrig - which I don't think that Brent is.If Brents 26 footer is readily trailable then that would probably be the way to go.CheersAndy Airey -- CheersBrian | 35095|35044|2018-05-13 08:17:01|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|Insufficient research on my partapologiesAndrew Airey| 35096|35044|2018-05-13 11:04:59|brentswain38|Re: Smaller / Lighter than 26 ?|Weston Farmer's "Cherub" is the smallest stock steel boat I have seen, at 23 feet.She draws a lot of water, at nearly 4 feet, but that could be changed for a centreboarder or scheel keel . Like most of those designs, it is grossly overframed ,but could easily be done origami style. In the library yesterday, I found amagazine called "Small Craft Advisory" which has a lot of boats in the small size range you would be interested in.| 35097|35097|2018-05-15 22:06:30|aguysailing|3m vhb tape or butyl tape|My windows 12 yrs ago plexiglass fastened with screws onto sika flex have discoloured badly. I watched some utube vids on 3m vhb tape and butyl tape. Just wondering if anyone has used these to fasten their windows and specifically what version of the tape as 3m offers a variety. I searched some threads but would like a bit of more recent advice ... thanksGary| 35098|35097|2018-05-15 23:04:52|opuspaul|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|I have never used the VHB tape but I have heard good reports. It would certainly be easier and probably much cheaper. Most adhesives are damaged by UV. The same might be true of the VHB tape so be careful and read the data sheets. FWIW, Sika recommends shielding from UV in their 295 application guide. I masked and painted a flat black border around the edge of mine and have had no problems. Sika is a very good product if done correctly with the right thickness and primer but I probably wouldn't use Sika again. The shelf life is low and the cost is too high, especially when you add in the price of the primer which is absolutely outrageous. Dow Corning is supposed to make an RTV based product that is supposed to be quite good but I can't remember the name. I have no idea what it costs but I doubt it would be more than the Sika. If you rely on plenty of mechanical fasteners and don't need an adhesive, then there is nothing wrong with Brent's tried and true method of using butyl sealant and a gasket. I did some portholes many years ago with butyl and cork and they have been zero trouble.https://usa.sika.com/.../Bonding%20and%20Sealing%20Plastic%20Windows.pdf---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My windows 12 yrs ago plexiglass fastened with screws onto sika flex have discoloured badly. I watched some utube vids on 3m vhb tape and butyl tape. Just wondering if anyone has used these to fasten their windows and specifically what version of the tape as 3m offers a variety. I searched some threads but would like a bit of more recent advice ... thanksGary| 35099|35097|2018-05-16 00:08:05|bcboomer1948|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|I used this method last year and they look terrific and don't leak:https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/replacing-fixed-portlightsDefinitely need the thicker tape and the Dow 795 is very easy to use.I just took the old plexi to my favorite plastics shop and they used them as patterns.Neil| 35100|35097|2018-05-16 00:45:58|Brian Stannard|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|The Dow product is 795. It is not expensive. VHB tape is excellent for adhering the plexiglas and it leaves a gap for sealant. Sealant is still needed as the VHB tape will not guaranteer the water is kept out. Do not use fasteners - they is the cause of failure with cracks radiating out from them. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:04 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I have never used the VHB tape but I have heard good reports.Â It would certainly be easier and probably much cheaper.Â Most adhesives are damaged by UV.Â The same might be true of the VHB tape so be careful and read the data sheets.Â Â FWIW, Sika recommends shielding from UV in their 295 application guide.Â I masked and painted aÂ flat black border around the edge of mine and have had no problems.Â Sika is a very good product if done correctlyÂ with the right thickness and primer but I probably wouldn't use Sika again.Â Â The shelf life is low and the cost is too high, especially when you add in the price of the primer which is absolutely outrageous. Â Dow Corning is supposed to make an RTV based product that is supposed to be quite good but I can't remember the name.Â I have no idea what it costs but I doubt it would be more than the Sika.Â If you rely on plenty of mechanical fasteners and don't need an adhesive, then there is nothing wrong with Brent's tried and true method of using butyl sealant and a gasket.Â I did some portholes many years ago with butyl and cork and they have been zero trouble.https://usa.sika.com/.../ Bonding%20and%20Sealing% 20Plastic%20Windows.pdf---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My windows 12 yrs ago plexiglass fastened with screws onto sika flex have discoloured badly.Â I watched some utube vids on 3m vhb tape and butyl tape.Â Just wondering if anyone has used these to fasten their windows and specifically what version of the tape as 3m offers a variety.Â I searched some threads but would like a bit of more recent advice ... thanksGary -- CheersBrian | 35101|35097|2018-05-16 04:12:19|Brian Stannard|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|Here's a good article on installing ports. Scroll to the bottom to "surface mounting". Covers sealant and VHB tape.https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/replacing-fixed-portlights On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Stannard wrote:The Dow product is 795. It is not expensive. VHB tape is excellent for adhering the plexiglas and it leaves a gap for sealant. Sealant is still needed as the VHB tape will not guaranteer the water is kept out. Do not use fasteners - they is the cause of failure with cracks radiating out from them.On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:04 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I have never used the VHB tape but I have heard good reports.Â It would certainly be easier and probably much cheaper.Â Most adhesives are damaged by UV.Â The same might be true of the VHB tape so be careful and read the data sheets.Â Â FWIW, Sika recommends shielding from UV in their 295 application guide.Â I masked and painted aÂ flat black border around the edge of mine and have had no problems.Â Sika is a very good product if done correctlyÂ with the right thickness and primer but I probably wouldn't use Sika again.Â Â The shelf life is low and the cost is too high, especially when you add in the price of the primer which is absolutely outrageous. Â Dow Corning is supposed to make an RTV based product that is supposed to be quite good but I can't remember the name.Â I have no idea what it costs but I doubt it would be more than the Sika.Â If you rely on plenty of mechanical fasteners and don't need an adhesive, then there is nothing wrong with Brent's tried and true method of using butyl sealant and a gasket.Â I did some portholes many years ago with butyl and cork and they have been zero trouble.https://usa.sika.com/.../Bondi ng%20and%20Sealing%20Plastic% 20Windows.pdf---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My windows 12 yrs ago plexiglass fastened with screws onto sika flex have discoloured badly.Â I watched some utube vids on 3m vhb tape and butyl tape.Â Just wondering if anyone has used these to fasten their windows and specifically what version of the tape as 3m offers a variety.Â I searched some threads but would like a bit of more recent advice ... thanksGary -- CheersBrian -- CheersBrian | 35102|35097|2018-05-16 15:01:12|aguysailing|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|"Scroll to the bottom to "surface mounting". Covers sealant and VHB tape."... thanks for the link Brian. I think I give the tape a go on one window. Just wondering if the tape is hard to take off if not suitable?Gary| 35103|35103|2018-05-16 15:04:04|aguysailing|Radar dome|Now that I have my radar dome down; installed 12 yrs ago, never looked at since. Just wondering if there is any maintenance to the inside electronics like a spray or etc...I have a JRC 1500 Mk 2| 35104|35097|2018-05-16 17:48:41|Brian Stannard|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|Impossible to remove the tape - the plexi will break first. Make sure the plexi is positioned correctly - there is no second chance. On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:59 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â "Scroll to the bottom to "surface mounting". Covers sealant and VHB tape."... thanks for the link Brian.Â I think I give the tape a go on one window.Â Â Just wondering if the tape is hard to take off if not suitable?Gary -- CheersBrian | 35105|35097|2018-05-16 19:34:38|brentswain38|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|Painting the plexi over the bedding helps keep the UV out.| 35106|35097|2018-05-16 19:37:33|brentswain38|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|Any thinner will take butyl off.| 35107|35103|2018-05-17 10:02:50|Matt Malone|Re: Radar dome| I would never do anything to electronics as a general rule. If I were to consider doing anything, I would consider the following: First you need to have a reason to do something. If the dome is in fact not well closed at all, then it is possible that over time contaminants like ocean salt from the air might accumulate. This combined with condensation creates a salt solution in tiny droplets all over the board and this might reduce its service life. Removing this salt accumulation might be a reason to do something. Second, appraise vulnerabilities: If I were considering doing anything, it would be look carefully at it and make sure there are no components that might hold a liquid or water -- this is not a complete list: old style paper capacitors like are found in old tube radios, old style transistor radio inductors contained in a can that is not sealed and very difficult to remove liquid from, any sort of LCD/LED/plasma display made of closely spaced layers -- the functionality of these items is destroyed by liquids, even if they do not "dissolve". If ever in doubt, do nothing. I am going to guess as outdoor electronics in a dome that is not hermetically sealed (otherwise you would not be talking about taking it apart) it is made to handle condensation. None of the water-vulnerable types of electronic components can handle condensation. I am going to guess that none of the components in the dome would hold water, and water in the form of condensation will not harm them. Condensation is distilled water. If one has determined that water would cause no harm, and there is a need to do something, then depowering it (and waiting for capacitors to discharge), washing it with DISTILLED water and fully drying in a low humidity environment before using it again is the only possible action. That is not to say that washing it with water is advisable, it is just saying that using any other liquid is probably completely unsuitable. Many petroleum-based solvents might mechanically remove salt (like a clean, oil-free air blast might), but they cannot dissolve salt, so they are not going to be as effective as distilled water. Further, many important coatings on the electronics board, like those intended to reduce condensation or to protect conductors from the effects of salt, might be washed off by a petroleum-based solvent. "Aggressive" solvents ranging from alcohols to acetone, and chlorinated and fluorinated solvents and beyond may or may not dissolve the salt and may be more destructive to the coatings on the board. Therefore I recommend considering the need, the potential for damage, the potential of using distilled water as a wash medium, and a means to thoroughly dry the electronics again after washing them, before taking any action. That said, my GPS and cell phone went into a fresh water lake and stayed under for 20 minutes. Both had their batteries in them at the time, the phone was certainly powered. Knowing that exposure to distilled water could not cause more damage than the lake already had*, I disassembled and thoroughly washed the subassemblies for each in distilled water and put them into a convection dryer overnight. A purpose-built convection dryer uses forced air at about 40C (in an ambient 20C environment)** to aggressively dry electronics. It might be comparable to a food dryer used to create dried fruit and jerky. Obviously leaving raw meat and sliced fruit laying about to dry just anywhere is not a reliable way to make jerky or dried fruit so, a dryer is more aggressive drying than one might typically experience by just leaving something out to dry. (Yes, jerky is raw meat, that is just soaked overnight in a sweet and spiced pickling solution. It is easy to make, if you have a dryer.) The outcome for the GPS and cell phone was, the cell phone worked, for a couple more years. The GPS did not work, but I sent it in to the manufacturer for repairs and it came back working -- I do not know if they just replaced the board or something. *More water cannot hurt: I have used this same principle when I have spilled juice on electronics -- washed it with clean water in the sink -- and recommended washing with water to people who have had electronics exposed to other forms of impure water, including sewage. More water cannot hurt. ** Obviously, if one uses a 40C dryer in a tropical 35C ambient environment with 100% humidity, the dryer will not remove water as fast. In such an environment, an active dehumidifier is required to treat the incoming air to remove water so that when heated, it aggressively removes water from the electronics. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Radar dome Now that I have my radar dome down; installed 12 yrs ago, never looked at since. Just wondering if there is any maintenance to the inside electronics like a spray or etc... I have a JRC 1500 Mk 2 | 35108|35103|2018-05-17 14:02:02|aguysailing|Re: Radar dome|Very good post Matt... thanks. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" as you pointed out. .... Gary| 35109|35103|2018-05-17 15:01:06|Matt Malone|Washing to remove salt residue| On the other hand, if we are just talking about the inside of the boat in service areas: wiring, plumbing, engine and bilges, no electronics, I would not hesitate to spray clean fresh water in there to wash out all the salt residues that are slowly corroding all of my electrical connections, pipes, clamps and fittings. I would do it every chance I got, at least twice a year, especially in conditions with hot sun and cool, dry air conditions when I could beach the boat. It would not take too much to make the boat get quite warm inside -- either run up the wood stove in an insulated boat, or spread dark coloured tarps on the deck of an uninsulated boat -- and it would dry itself over the course of a few hours. The bilge pump would remove the salt. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 10:02 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radar dome I would never do anything to electronics as a general rule. If I were to consider doing anything, I would consider the following: First you need to have a reason to do something. If the dome is in fact not well closed at all, then it is possible that over time contaminants like ocean salt from the air might accumulate. This combined with condensation creates a salt solution in tiny droplets all over the board and this might reduce its service life. Removing this salt accumulation might be a reason to do something. Second, appraise vulnerabilities: If I were considering doing anything, it would be look carefully at it and make sure there are no components that might hold a liquid or water -- this is not a complete list: old style paper capacitors like are found in old tube radios, old style transistor radio inductors contained in a can that is not sealed and very difficult to remove liquid from, any sort of LCD/LED/plasma display made of closely spaced layers -- the functionality of these items is destroyed by liquids, even if they do not "dissolve". If ever in doubt, do nothing. I am going to guess as outdoor electronics in a dome that is not hermetically sealed (otherwise you would not be talking about taking it apart) it is made to handle condensation. None of the water-vulnerable types of electronic components can handle condensation. I am going to guess that none of the components in the dome would hold water, and water in the form of condensation will not harm them. Condensation is distilled water. If one has determined that water would cause no harm, and there is a need to do something, then depowering it (and waiting for capacitors to discharge), washing it with DISTILLED water and fully drying in a low humidity environment before using it again is the only possible action. That is not to say that washing it with water is advisable, it is just saying that using any other liquid is probably completely unsuitable. Many petroleum-based solvents might mechanically remove salt (like a clean, oil-free air blast might), but they cannot dissolve salt, so they are not going to be as effective as distilled water. Further, many important coatings on the electronics board, like those intended to reduce condensation or to protect conductors from the effects of salt, might be washed off by a petroleum-based solvent. "Aggressive" solvents ranging from alcohols to acetone, and chlorinated and fluorinated solvents and beyond may or may not dissolve the salt and may be more destructive to the coatings on the board. Therefore I recommend considering the need, the potential for damage, the potential of using distilled water as a wash medium, and a means to thoroughly dry the electronics again after washing them, before taking any action. That said, my GPS and cell phone went into a fresh water lake and stayed under for 20 minutes. Both had their batteries in them at the time, the phone was certainly powered. Knowing that exposure to distilled water could not cause more damage than the lake already had*, I disassembled and thoroughly washed the subassemblies for each in distilled water and put them into a convection dryer overnight. A purpose-built convection dryer uses forced air at about 40C (in an ambient 20C environment)** to aggressively dry electronics. It might be comparable to a food dryer used to create dried fruit and jerky. Obviously leaving raw meat and sliced fruit laying about to dry just anywhere is not a reliable way to make jerky or dried fruit so, a dryer is more aggressive drying than one might typically experience by just leaving something out to dry. (Yes, jerky is raw meat, that is just soaked overnight in a sweet and spiced pickling solution. It is easy to make, if you have a dryer.) The outcome for the GPS and cell phone was, the cell phone worked, for a couple more years. The GPS did not work, but I sent it in to the manufacturer for repairs and it came back working -- I do not know if they just replaced the board or something. *More water cannot hurt: I have used this same principle when I have spilled juice on electronics -- washed it with clean water in the sink -- and recommended washing with water to people who have had electronics exposed to other forms of impure water, including sewage. More water cannot hurt. ** Obviously, if one uses a 40C dryer in a tropical 35C ambient environment with 100% humidity, the dryer will not remove water as fast. In such an environment, an active dehumidifier is required to treat the incoming air to remove water so that when heated, it aggressively removes water from the electronics. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Radar dome Now that I have my radar dome down; installed 12 yrs ago, never looked at since. Just wondering if there is any maintenance to the inside electronics like a spray or etc... I have a JRC 1500 Mk 2 | 35110|35097|2018-05-17 20:19:25|brentswain38|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|I wonder if one can get o ring material off a roll.One could possibly run a piece of O ring around your window bolts before bedding them down in butyl. That would give you an O ring to a back up the butyl.I have one port in the bow which is set inside a stainless 6 inch pipe. Next time I have to bed it, I will router an O ring grove in the edge of the plexi, and put an O ring in it ,for an O ring seal between the plexi and the stainless .| 35111|35111|2018-05-17 21:07:59|bilgekeeldave|Hull repairs|I hauled my 35 year old Brent Swain 30 twin keel boat last fall. Now that the weather is nice, I am getting ready to strip off the coatings on the bottom and re apply it. About 50% of the epoxy tar is already gone, I think I will use a sandblasting attachment for a pressure washer to remove the layers of old bottom paint and epoxy.I am looking for recommendations for an epoxy coating to re apply to the hull.I noticed that there is an area about eight feet long and a foot wide on the port side of the hull, right near the centerline and aft of the keels, that has dime sized deep pits in the hull. My plan is to weld up the pits and grind the welds flush with the hull surface, there are a eleven pits in all. A couple of these pits penetrated the hull. I was thinking about welding a back up plates in the bilge over these holes and then weld up the hole and grind it flush from the outside. I have been removing all the spray foam from the bilge, in the area of the pits and holes. Brent, does this sound like a good plan? I have a 240 volt inverter MIG welder that can weld up to 1/4" steel, it is small enough to get it inside the boat to weld backing plates over the holes. Dave| 35112|35111|2018-05-21 16:22:52|brentswain38|Re: Hull repairs|Sounds like a good plan. You can measure the depth of the pits by putting a straight edge across them and sliding a dial caliper across it, measuring the change in depth as you go.Welding the hols is the best plan, plate can tap water behind them, unless set in flush. Be ready to very quickly seal the boat airtight, if the remaining foam should catch fire. Sealing the boat airtight will put it out quickly, fighting the fire with he boat open,after the fire begins raging, is not a good idea . Have a hose handy and ready to go all the time you are welding.Have someone in the cockpit hose in hand, ready for action the whole time.There used to be a great military surplus place just south of Port Townsend which I got my epoxy from .(Devoe Bar rust 235) Don't know if it is still there.That ha worked well for many ,but in the the indies they mostly use Ameron.I dove a boat which was painted there with Ameron,and it was immaculate. The glass platelets they use can be purchased separately and added to any epoxy. That makes any moisture take the scenic route around them, and the glass is impervious to moisture . I would probably not be a good idea on any epoxy which is not high in solids, as they may entrap thinner.Make sure you give her lots of dry time, to avoid thinner entrapment.Bilges should never be foamed, a common ,big mistake.Just a good, heavy buildup of epoxy ,below the floor boards.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I hauled my 35 year old Brent Swain 30 twin keel boat last fall. Now that the weather is nice, I am getting ready to strip off the coatings on the bottom and re apply it. About 50% of the epoxy tar is already gone, I think I will use a sandblasting attachment for a pressure washer to remove the layers of old bottom paint and epoxy.I am looking for recommendations for an epoxy coating to re apply to the hull.I noticed that there is an area about eight feet long and a foot wide on the port side of the hull, right near the centerline and aft of the keels, that has dime sized deep pits in the hull. My plan is to weld up the pits and grind the welds flush with the hull surface, there are a eleven pits in all. A couple of these pits penetrated the hull. I was thinking about welding a back up plates in the bilge over these holes and then weld up the hole and grind it flush from the outside. I have been removing all the spray foam from the bilge, in the area of the pits and holes. Brent, does this sound like a good plan? I have a 240 volt inverter MIG welder that can weld up to 1/4" steel, it is small enough to get it inside the boat to weld backing plates over the holes. Dave| 35113|35097|2018-05-21 16:26:30|aguysailing|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|Dow 795 seems to be the go to sealant as far as the info fromsurfing boat forums. I could not find a source in Canada ... ??| 35114|35097|2018-05-21 16:51:16|Neil Ramsey|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|Cascade Aqua-Tech in Burnaby is where I bought mine at a really good price.Neil On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 1:12 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Dow 795 seems to be the go to sealant as far as the info fromsurfing boat forums.Â I could not find a source in Canada ... ?? | 35115|35097|2018-05-21 17:05:24|Brian Stannard|Re: 3m vhb tape or butyl tape|795 is readily available in Canada, in Victoria and Vancouver that I know of. Try plastic fabrication shops. On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 1:12 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Dow 795 seems to be the go to sealant as far as the info fromsurfing boat forums.Â I could not find a source in Canada ... ?? -- CheersBrian | 35116|35103|2018-05-21 18:19:31|opuspaul|Re: Radar dome|I worked repairing radars and electronics for about 20 years. A lot of electronics and motors gets ruined by spraying chemicals like WD-40 on boards. WD-40 and carbon brushes in motors don't go well together and it can damage some plastics yet I am amazed how people seem to want to spray it and similar chemicals everywhere. I wouldn't spray anything on a board, even electrical contact cleaner since some of them can damage plastics with their propellants. Bottom line is it is normally best to just leave things alone. If something is really bad/salty or even sunk, you can rinse the boards with fresh water to reclaim them but you must be absolutly sure it is dry before powering up again. It will take many days for everything to dry out under a gentle heat source like a lamp. There are special conformal/hysol coatings for circuit boards but if you apply them, you must be assured you don't get anything on the contact pins. Unless you are comfortable with electronics, I wouldn't do it. Marine electronics should have them on the boards anyway. Silicone (dielectric) grease is safe with plastics and can be good on connectors. Don't use too much of it can trap drops of water and moisture. I am amazed how badly made marine electronics can be. Aircraft electronics use gold contacts on their pins which never corrode. Cheap marine electronics often have crappy pins and connectors using tin flashing on the contacts which can be troublesome. Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Now that I have my radar dome down; installed 12 yrs ago, never looked at since. Just wondering if there is any maintenance to the inside electronics like a spray or etc...I have a JRC 1500 Mk 2| 35117|35103|2018-05-21 20:44:46|Matt Malone|Re: Radar dome| Paul's post was excellent and detailed. Contact cleaner is the best way to destroy electronics, plastics and weld together all delicate plastic moving parts. A person who knew this handed me a can and told me to spray in into expensive and delicate machinery so that I would destroy it andbbe blamed. When 5 seconds later, all the plastic melded and stuck together, I said its melting, and he said in a "you are so stupid" tone that I should not have used so much. Seems he made few friends, he got fired less than a year later. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, May 21, 18:19 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Radar dome To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I worked repairing radars and electronics for about 20 years. A lot of electronics and motors gets ruined by spraying chemicals like WD-40 on boards. WD-40 and carbon brushes in motors don't go well together and it can damage some plastics yet I am amazed how people seem to want to spray it and similar chemicals everywhere. I wouldn't spray anything on a board, even electrical contact cleaner since some of them can damage plastics with their propellants. Bottom line is it is normally best to just leave things alone. If something is really bad/salty or even sunk, you can rinse the boards with fresh water to reclaim them but you must be absolutly sure it is dry before powering up again. It will take many days for everything to dry out under a gentle heat source like a lamp. There are special conformal/hysol coatings for circuit boards but if you apply them, you must be assured you don't get anything on the contact pins. Unless you are comfortable with electronics, I wouldn't do it. Marine electronics should have them on the boards anyway. Silicone (dielectric) grease is safe with plastics and can be good on connectors. Don't use too much of it can trap drops of water and moisture. I am amazed how badly made marine electronics can be. Aircraft electronics use gold contacts on their pins which never corrode. Cheap marine electronics often have crappy pins and connectors using tin flashing on the contacts which can be troublesome. Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Now that I have my radar dome down; installed 12 yrs ago, never looked at since. Just wondering if there is any maintenance to the inside electronics like a spray or etc... I have a JRC 1500 Mk 2 | 35118|35103|2018-05-22 09:23:46|a.sobriquet|Re: Radar dome|You can remove moisture from LCDs by placing the item inside of a vacuum chamber. The higher the vacuum the better. Afterwards, seal the edges with epoxy.AS---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-112834320 #ygrps-yiv-112834320ygrps-yiv-1513911402 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}... any sort of LCD/LED/plasma display made of closely spaced layers -- the functionality of these items is destroyed by liquids, even if they do not "dissolve".... | 35119|35103|2018-05-22 11:06:46|Matt Malone|Re: Radar dome| Absolutely true, a vacuum chamber will remove water, but I am unsure of its effect on Liquid Crystal Displays (LCD) . My comment is on "good vacuum" and practical vacuum because I have had bitter experience trying to get water out of things with a vacuum. At 20C, the vapour pressure of water is about 18mmHg, about 2% of an atmosphere. The average roughing pump can get down to 10^-2 - 10^3 mmHg with no problem. That is 200-2000 times lower pressure. At 10^-2 mmHg, that is about 20 times lower than needed to make further decreases in pressure less than 10% improvement on the pumping rate. Reaching for that 10% is all one can get by pumping harder, and any roughing pump will give you 9.5% of that 10%, minimum anyway. Best case, better vacuum will see a 0.5% improvement. But the problem is, one can old back 2% of an atmosphere with one's little finger -- that is peanuts in the way of driving pressure to get the water out. A lot of materials simply resist the escape of water with pressures greater than that making pumping very slow. At the same time, the electricity consumed is raising that pressure by 98% of an atmosphere. A hugely ineffective "lever". So one is pumping a long time to remove a tiny amount of water. Maybe on a small one or two-line LCD, this might take only a couple days. If this is a $2,000 gyrocompass display, oh yes for sure I would try it. Vacuum pumping sure was completely useless and a waste of electricity to try to get dozens of pounds of water out of hull material -- I got an ounce or two after a day. Temperature is the key: http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch14/tvsvp.html Temperature vs. Vapor Pressure - Purdue University chemed.chem.purdue.edu A plot of the vapor pressure of water versus the water's temperature Looking back at the graph, if one increases the temperature to 32C, the vapour pressure of water doubles, a 100% increase. That doubles the driving pressure and the removal rate of water. Low humidity and elevated temperature at atmospheric pressure is actually very effective, and easier to produce, and what an electronics dryer does. But I have no idea about LCD. All LCD displays were classified as un-dry-able by the company I worked for, that did electronics cleaning. I sure will give vacuum a try on an a little calculator or 2-line LCD sometime, but I will warm it to increase the pumping rate by 100% or more. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radar dome You can remove moisture from LCDs by placing the item inside of a vacuum chamber. The higher the vacuum the better. Afterwards, seal the edges with epoxy. AS ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ... any sort of LCD/LED/plasma display made of closely spaced layers -- the functionality of these items is destroyed by liquids, even if they do not "dissolve".... | 35120|35103|2018-05-22 13:30:35|a.sobriquet|Re: Radar dome|My vicarious experience using a vacuum was with a small LCD display. The initial, lower vacuum didn't work. It took a higher vacuum.You may be correct that larger displays would be more problematical.AS---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-561623379 #ygrps-yiv-561623379ygrps-yiv-144015509 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}...So one is pumping a long time to remove a tiny amount of water. Maybe on a small one or two-line LCD, this might take only a couple days. If this is a $2,000 gyrocompass display, oh yes for sure I would try it. Vacuum pumping sure was completely useless and a waste of electricity to try to get dozens of pounds of water out of hull material -- I got an ounce or two after a day... | 35121|35111|2018-05-23 19:25:11|brentswain38|Re: Hull repairs|Sorry for all the typos.My computer was very slow and acting strange. A wet blanket inside, over the area you are welding, will help drastically reduce the fire hazzard. Scraping the foam will give you some idea how much epoxy Phil put in before foaming.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sounds like a good plan. You can measure the depth of the pits by putting a straight edge across them and sliding a dial caliper across it, measuring the change in depth as you go.Welding the hols is the best plan, plate can tap water behind them, unless set in flush. Be ready to very quickly seal the boat airtight, if the remaining foam should catch fire. Sealing the boat airtight will put it out quickly, fighting the fire with he boat open,after the fire begins raging, is not a good idea . Have a hose handy and ready to go all the time you are welding.Have someone in the cockpit hose in hand, ready for action the whole time.There used to be a great military surplus place just south of Port Townsend which I got my epoxy from .(Devoe Bar rust 235) Don't know if it is still there.That ha worked well for many ,but in the the indies they mostly use Ameron.I dove a boat which was painted there with Ameron,and it was immaculate. The glass platelets they use can be purchased separately and added to any epoxy. That makes any moisture take the scenic route around them, and the glass is impervious to moisture . I would probably not be a good idea on any epoxy which is not high in solids, as they may entrap thinner.Make sure you give her lots of dry time, to avoid thinner entrapment.Bilges should never be foamed, a common ,big mistake.Just a good, heavy buildup of epoxy ,below the floor boards.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I hauled my 35 year old Brent Swain 30 twin keel boat last fall. Now that the weather is nice, I am getting ready to strip off the coatings on the bottom and re apply it. About 50% of the epoxy tar is already gone, I think I will use a sandblasting attachment for a pressure washer to remove the layers of old bottom paint and epoxy.I am looking for recommendations for an epoxy coating to re apply to the hull.I noticed that there is an area about eight feet long and a foot wide on the port side of the hull, right near the centerline and aft of the keels, that has dime sized deep pits in the hull. My plan is to weld up the pits and grind the welds flush with the hull surface, there are a eleven pits in all. A couple of these pits penetrated the hull. I was thinking about welding a back up plates in the bilge over these holes and then weld up the hole and grind it flush from the outside. I have been removing all the spray foam from the bilge, in the area of the pits and holes. Brent, does this sound like a good plan? I have a 240 volt inverter MIG welder that can weld up to 1/4" steel, it is small enough to get it inside the boat to weld backing plates over the holes. Dave| 35122|35103|2018-05-24 00:51:28|rockrothwell|Re: Radar dome|Having drowned electonics, er,.... memorably,Found the back shelf of the wood stove, about the 32 degrees mentioned, in a ziplock bag, with rice to burry it. Bag has condensation on it overnight. Change rice 2 - 3 times till no condenation on the bag over night & bake it a bit longer to make sure sure it's dry. Then fire it up, bout a 50:50 chanceBut if you give it power b4 its good & dry you'll fry it.A radar dome might be interesting.Try rice in big black plastic bag? In the sun?Any salt? If it's already seen water in watever form, clean is not gonna hurt. Your drying it anyway & salt is the killer.If everything was working right, is it sealed? Can you have at the bearings to lube em?Do you need to? If it works, don't fix it....?I am asking here as "twiddle the knobs till you get a clear immage & don't screw up on range" was bout as far as I got.Someone else paying for it, worked well for meBut plan on buying used. What should I be looking for?Have heard that some people use dessicant in radar dome in the tropics, but then you must have access to change or dry the dessicant.And my gut feeling is that a sweep arm is pretty exposed so a dome or 'sealed' unit probaby safer | 35123|35103|2018-05-24 14:34:10|jnhs@protonmail.com|Re: Radar dome|If you get water inside of an LCD display you can get it out if you can place it inside of a vacuum chamber -- the higher the vacuum the better. After the water is removed you may be able to seal the edges with epoxy to prevent moisture getting in again.For drying purposes, vacuum chambers are less common than ovens, but they are less likely to damage sensitive components than the heat of an oven.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1052746477 #ygrps-yiv-1052746477ygrps-yiv-788379076 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} any sort of LCD/LED/plasma display made of closely spaced layers -- the functionality of these items is destroyed by liquids, even if they do not "dissolve". If ever in doubt, do nothing. | 35124|35103|2018-05-24 14:34:25|jnhs@protonmail.com|Re: Radar dome|Moisture that gets into LCD displays can be removed by placing the unit into a vacuum chamber, the higher the vacuum the better. You don't have to worry about overheating in an oven that way.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-926624181 #ygrps-yiv-926624181ygrps-yiv-1295746320 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} any sort of LCD/LED/plasma display made of closely spaced layers -- the functionality of these items is destroyed by liquids, even if they do not "dissolve". If ever in doubt, do nothing. | 35125|35103|2018-05-24 15:26:19|Darren Bos|Re: Radar dome| If all you have to work with is an oven, you can get the temp safe by preheating the oven on its lowest setting, then turning it off.Â When the oven has cooled to the temp where you can just hold your hand on the grill indefinitely, put the phone/electronics in.Â Then leave the oven to slowly cool.Â Two or three cycles like this seems to do the trick.Â If you are doing a phone, don't put the battery in the oven.Â I usually throw a bit of rice in a tray into the oven at the same time.Â When I go to bed, I take the phone and rice out of the oven, place them together in a plastic container and seal them in there together overnight.Â Two evening cycles in the oven, plus an overnight in rice has brought my phone back from lake dunk and being run through the washing machine.Â I also fixed another phone this way after an ocean dunk.Â That one required a bunch of freshwater rinsing first, and although it worked it had reliability issues after. On 18-05-18 02:18 PM, jnhs@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â For drying purposes, vacuum chambers are less common than ovens, but they are less likely to damage sensitive components than the heat of an oven. | 35126|35103|2018-05-24 15:51:10|brentswain38|Re: Radar dome| If it works, don't fix it....? If it aint broke , don't fix it.Then there is the government version.If it aint broke , fix it until it is broke!| 35127|35127|2018-05-27 17:08:59|jhess314|1/4" plate for hull and deck?|I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not?John| 35128|35127|2018-05-27 17:32:18|mountain man|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| When I bought my 37 ft sailboat, the seller garanteed me that it was 3/16 in thick plate until I placed my measuring tape in a thrue hull hole wich confirmed what I thought in the first place wichwas 1/8in ... On May 27, 2018, at 5:17 PM, "j.hess@... [origamiboats]" wrote: I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not? John | 35129|35127|2018-05-27 19:04:35|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| 1/4" steel or 2" of wood. 1/4" on a 12' beam in a barge hull cross-section draws about 12" water. It is going to float and have a huge reserve buoyancy. I see no reason from the point of view of floatation that 1/4" is "too much". In precisely the same hull shape as a thinner boat it sure will draw more water, by maybe 6". Yes, that 6" will be important not every single day, and not virtually never, but from time to time. If one assumes it is well welded and well designed from a structural point of view then the BENEFIT of 1/4" over 7 gauge will give one more confidence every single day that there is less to worry about as one wonders how much water is under the keel. Now 1/4" sure is far more expensive than it needs to be, if one is building it and buying new steel. I would agree all day long with Brent when he argues need and cost. I also recognise that 1/4 is far harder to work with and bend like Brent bends it, with the tools he recommends. A 1/4" boat built with more extensive hydraulic tools, by different methods, no build issue. But it would be way more expensive to build. But this is an already built, used boat, so none of this matters. I would consider buying it at an appropriate price. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 17:17 Subject: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not? John | 35130|35127|2018-05-27 19:22:31|jhess314|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|I can sort of understand why a 1/4" hull would make it more bomb proof, but why would they use 1/4" plate for the deck? That would just make it more top-heavy. In fact, one of my questions was whether the 1/4" topsides would also make the boat top-heavy? Seems you would need more ballast to counter the heavy topsides/deck. Does 4200 lbs ballast (in a fin keel; 6'2" draft; 11' beam) seem sufficient?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 1/4" steel or 2" of wood. 1/4" on a 12' beam in a barge hull cross-section draws about 12" water. It is going to float and have a huge reserve buoyancy. I see no reason from the point of view of floatation that 1/4" is "too much". In precisely the same hull shape as a thinner boat it sure will draw more water, by maybe 6". Yes, that 6" will be important not every single day, and not virtually never, but from time to time. If one assumes it is well welded and well designed from a structural point of view then the BENEFIT of 1/4" over 7 gauge will give one more confidence every single day that there is less to worry about as one wonders how much water is under the keel. Now 1/4" sure is far more expensive than it needs to be, if one is building it and buying new steel. I would agree all day long with Brent when he argues need and cost. I also recognise that 1/4 is far harder to work with and bend like Brent bends it, with the tools he recommends. A 1/4" boat built with more extensive hydraulic tools, by different methods, no build issue. But it would be way more expensive to build. But this is an already built, used boat, so none of this matters. I would consider buying it at an appropriate price. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 17:17 Subject: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not? John | 35131|35127|2018-05-27 20:35:42|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| Hello John, If the boat is in the water, I would ask to sail it. If the deck makes a big difference, one would notice it. Yes, the deck is more mass above the cg. It raises the cg. But the heavier boat sinks lower, raising the center of buoyancy. All of the additional buoyancy is at the waterline. It is the difference in distance between the two that determines stability. So it is not at all clear it would make a big difference. One would need to know the nature of the ballast (poured lead? Blocks of lead? Etc), and some idea of the freeboard and deck shape -- double ended? A picture looking down at the ballast will inform where the top ballast is and its relative usefulness at 4,200 pounds. If one sees the long (fore-aft), low aspect ratio fin keel is only half full of poured lead, that is a really useful 4,200 pounds because it is a longer distance below the cg. I would buy that boat in a heartbeat because I could pour in another ton of lead in if I came to feel 4,200 pounds was not enough. If the ballast is steel scrap and concrete, and overflows the top of a high aspect ratio fin keel, I would be inclined to be more doubtful of its effectiveness. I would know I would have to increase the fin draft and bolt on a lead shoe -- a lot more work -- should I find 4,200 pounds insufficient. If the freeboard is relatively low, like a Contessa 32, that is different than a flat, high deck Columbia 35. The extra deck weight, if it is low, is not as important. The data given so far is not yet certainly enough to be sure one way or the other. 4,200/15,000 is not small. One might take the data one has and look for similar shape and weight boats among the solid glass boats -- 2" of glass is heavier that 1/4" steel, but of the solid deck boats, I am not sure any are more than an inch in the deck -- still an inch might be comparable in mass to 1/4" steel. Based on these comparisons one might get ideas. I also agree with mountainman, it may not be 1/4" everywhere, or even anywhere. An ultrasonic thickness gauge would be really handy if you could borrow one. One does not need anything super complex if one had samples of 1/4 to 10 gauge in hand to do comparisons. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 19:22 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I can sort of understand why a 1/4" hull would make it more bomb proof, but why would they use 1/4" plate for the deck? That would just make it more top-heavy. In fact, one of my questions was whether the 1/4" topsides would also make the boat top-heavy? Seems you would need more ballast to counter the heavy topsides/deck. Does 4200 lbs ballast (in a fin keel; 6'2" draft; 11' beam) seem sufficient? John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 1/4" steel or 2" of wood. 1/4" on a 12' beam in a barge hull cross-section draws about 12" water. It is going to float and have a huge reserve buoyancy. I see no reason from the point of view of floatation that 1/4" is "too much". In precisely the same hull shape as a thinner boat it sure will draw more water, by maybe 6". Yes, that 6" will be important not every single day, and not virtually never, but from time to time. If one assumes it is well welded and well designed from a structural point of view then the BENEFIT of 1/4" over 7 gauge will give one more confidence every single day that there is less to worry about as one wonders how much water is under the keel. Now 1/4" sure is far more expensive than it needs to be, if one is building it and buying new steel. I would agree all day long with Brent when he argues need and cost. I also recognise that 1/4 is far harder to work with and bend like Brent bends it, with the tools he recommends. A 1/4" boat built with more extensive hydraulic tools, by different methods, no build issue. But it would be way more expensive to build. But this is an already built, used boat, so none of this matters. I would consider buying it at an appropriate price. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 17:17 Subject: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not? John | 35132|35132|2018-05-28 04:41:05|ANDREW AIREY|Re: 1|1/4 plate used to be the standard for barge and narrow boat construction but modern narrow boats tend to be heavier plate nowWhy is it up for sale and who is the. designer. If ifs a Nick Scaife designed Wylo 2 snatch his hand off because this design bas a good cruising reputation. Cheers Andy AireySent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 35133|35127|2018-05-28 09:29:31|Darren Bos|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| 1/4" plate sounds too thick for the deck and could negatively effect stability.Â There is a chance the seller is wrong, as the displacement and ballast are not far off other boats built of thinner scantlings.Â Do you know the displacement and ballast that the design is supposed to have, heavier displacement or lighter ballast might point to heavier plate having been used.Â I have one of those inexpensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that can be found on ebay or princess auto.Â It works well, but it has to be used on bare metal, it won't work through paint.Â If, you can't remove some paint or remove a fitting, a marine surveyor that works with metal boats is likely to have one of the more expensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that will work through coatings. On 18-05-27 02:32 PM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â When I bought my 37 ft sailboat, the seller garanteed me that it was 3/16 in thick plate until I placed my measuring tape in a thrue hull hole wich confirmed what I thought in the first place wichwas 1/8in ... On May 27, 2018, at 5:17 PM, "j.hess@... [origamiboats]" wrote: Â I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not? John | 35134|35127|2018-05-28 11:44:35|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| The correct Princess Auto link: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/ultrasonic-thickness-gauge/A-p8601205e $160 is pricey especially if there it no way for it to work through paint. Perhaps some ultrasonic gel ? Perhaps the machine can only handle one speed of sound discontinuity to allow it to work dry, but with gel it might work through paint... Just a thought. I would rather have a greasy spot on the paint, than chip through paint. I just looked at ebay for A-Scan -- depth only at one spot -- NDT units like mine. I saw none. FYI, B-scan shows a depth profile over a line -- most side-scrolling fish-finders are like B-scan devices. C-scan is depth over an area, so full 3D. The Opthalmic (to measure eyes) A and B scan units are really expensive but some show the result on a oscilloscope screen so one could compare any material of an unknown thickness to a sample of the same material of a known thickness. I have never tried this but, it seems it works on thin steel and it falls into the category of an in the pocket, cheap option. Steel can only carry so much magnetic field before it saturates. Super-strong magnets, ones strong enough to fully permeate a thickness of mild steel with a magnetic field, will stick harder on thicker steel -- you may have noticed this. One might judge how hard they stick to guess the thickness, up to the thickness where they cannot produce a field to fully permeate the steel. Then compare the boat to mild steel samples of various thickness to guess which it is most similar too. This would work with 20 gauge, not sure about 1/4". I cannot think of any other pocket solutions right off the top of my head. I guess the next thing would be to ask to remove a fitting or bolt and measure the plate in the hole -- there might be something on the topsides that might be removed easily. If it is a keel stepped mast, there has to be a hole in the deck for the mast to pass through? Perhaps they were not very careful with their plate sizing and seams around the top edge of the doghouse. Perhaps what should have been a butt-weld on an outside corner of the doghouse became more like a T-weld where the thickness of the top plate is visible. Perhaps on the area of the hatch or companionway, one can get a thickness inspection caliper on the plate thickness: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/3-pc-8-in-divider-and-caliper-set/A-p2940260e 3 pc 8 in. Divider and Caliper Set | Princess Auto www.princessauto.com Parts associated with this item We have not associated any parts with this item. There may be parts available - please call us toll free for more information: 1-800-665-8685 Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? 1/4" plate sounds too thick for the deck and could negatively effect stability. There is a chance the seller is wrong, as the displacement and ballast are not far off other boats built of thinner scantlings. Do you know the displacement and ballast that the design is supposed to have, heavier displacement or lighter ballast might point to heavier plate having been used. I have one of those inexpensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that can be found on ebay or princess auto. It works well, but it has to be used on bare metal, it won't work through paint. If, you can't remove some paint or remove a fitting, a marine surveyor that works with metal boats is likely to have one of the more expensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that will work through coatings. On 18-05-27 02:32 PM, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: When I bought my 37 ft sailboat, the seller garanteed me that it was 3/16 in thick plate until I placed my measuring tape in a thrue hull hole wich confirmed what I thought in the first place wichwas 1/8in ... On May 27, 2018, at 5:17 PM, "j.hess@... [origamiboats]" wrote: I'm looking at an advertisement for a 33' steel-hulled sailboat (not origami). 15,000 lbs displacement, 4200 lbs ballast. They claim that both the hull and the deck are made of 1/4" plate. That seems unusually heavy to me. Can any of you with more steel boat experience than I assure me that this is a reasonable scantling, or not? John | 35135|35127|2018-05-28 16:16:31|Darren Bos|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| Matt, You do need to use ultrasonic gel with the cheap ebay meter.Â I'd always assumed that the more expensive meters were using more sophisticated filtering to deal with the component of reflection that you get as you pass from paint to metal.Â I had a couple of pieces I cut out from my hull handy so here is an example of what the cheap meter is capable of.Â With 0.25" (6.6mm) thick aluminum it reads 6.6 for clean bare metal.Â For a piece with several layers of Brightsides polyurethane it reads 7.1 mm from the painted side, 6.6 from the non painted side and the paint plus aluminum measures 6.7 mm with vernier calipers.Â So, with a relatively thin coat of paint it would be good enough to tell you the difference between 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4" decks.Â I also had a piece of hull with many layers of epoxy and bottom paint.Â From the rough slightly corroded side, it read 7.1mm, cleaning that up with 180 grit sandpaper yielded 6.6 mm, from the painted side it read 10.1 mm while the paint plus aluminum measured 8mm with vernier calipers.Â Measurements taken from a painted surface are also much more variable than those from clean metal. When we were boat shopping a few years back, I bought mine on ebay for something like $60CAN, I see there are ones that can be had for $77CAN now.Â For that price it has been useful enough.Â When we were boat shopping I could usually find a place to check things like the nominal thickness of the hull and decks.Â I had thought it might be useful to search for corrosion as well, but no longer think so.Â Both this unit and the ones used by surveyors have pretty limited utility when searching for corrosion.Â The area you look at with the meter is less than a square centimeter, you can only look at so many spots on the hull and the chances of you finding a small spot of corrosion with a random pattern are almost nil.Â Large patches of corrosion are likely to be discovered with the meter, but the standard issue eyeball is also pretty good for that.Â I suppose the meter does have value in that it tells you how much material is left in the corroded area, sometimes corrosion looks worse than it is. Darren On 18-05-28 08:44 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â The correct Princess Auto link: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/ultrasonic-thickness-gauge/A-p8601205e $160 is pricey especially if there it no way for it to work through paint.Â Perhaps some ultrasonic gel ?Â Perhaps the machine can only handle one speed of sound discontinuity to allow it to work dry, but with gel it might work through paint... Â Just a thought. Â I would rather have a greasy spot on the paint, than chip through paint. Â I just looked at ebay for A-Scan -- depth only at one spot -- NDT units like mine. Â I saw none.Â FYI,Â B-scan shows a depth profile over a line -- most side-scrolling fish-finders are like B-scan devices.Â C-scan is depth over an area, so full 3D. Â The Opthalmic (to measure eyes) A and B scan units are really expensive but some show the result on a oscilloscope screen so one could compare any material of an unknown thickness to a sample of the same material of a known thickness. Â | 35136|35127|2018-05-28 16:56:21|Aaron|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|As long as the paint or coatings are firmly attached no air or delamination of coating any of the ultrasound type units for spot thickness reading will work plus or minus there rated accuracy and the coating thickness on the tested side only. The tester will not tell you the is or is not any coating on the other side.If you want 100% accuracy then one must buff sand or blast the coating and or corrosion away from test area.UT level 1 basic information AaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Matt, You do need to use ultrasonic gel with the cheap ebay meter. I'd always assumed that the more expensive meters were using more sophisticated filtering to deal with the component of reflection that you get as you pass from paint to metal. I had a couple of pieces I cut out from my hull handy so here is an example of what the cheap meter is capable of. With 0.25" (6.6mm) thick aluminum it reads 6.6 for clean bare metal. For a piece with several layers of Brightsides polyurethane it reads 7.1 mm from the painted side, 6.6 from the non painted side and the paint plus aluminum measures 6.7 mm with vernier calipers. So, with a relatively thin coat of paint it would be good enough to tell you the difference between 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4" decks. I also had a piece of hull with many layers of epoxy and bottom paint. From the rough slightly corroded side, it read 7.1mm, cleaning that up with 180 grit sandpaper yielded 6.6 mm, from the painted side it read 10.1 mm while the paint plus aluminum measured 8mm with vernier calipers. Measurements taken from a painted surface are also much more variable than those from clean metal. When we were boat shopping a few years back, I bought mine on ebay for something like $60CAN, I see there are ones that can be had for $77CAN now. For that price it has been useful enough. When we were boat shopping I could usually find a place to check things like the nominal thickness of the hull and decks. I had thought it might be useful to search for corrosion as well, but no longer think so. Both this unit and the ones used by surveyors have pretty limited utility when searching for corrosion. The area you look at with the meter is less than a square centimeter, you can only look at so many spots on the hull and the chances of you finding a small spot of corrosion with a random pattern are almost nil. Large patches of corrosion are likely to be discovered with the meter, but the standard issue eyeball is also pretty good for that. I suppose the meter does have value in that it tells you how much material is left in the corroded area, sometimes corrosion looks worse than it is. Darren On 18-05-28 08:44 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: The correct Princess Auto link: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/ultrasonic-thickness-gauge/A-p8601205e $160 is pricey especially if there it no way for it to work through paint. Perhaps some ultrasonic gel ? Perhaps the machine can only handle one speed of sound discontinuity to allow it to work dry, but with gel it might work through paint... Just a thought. I would rather have a greasy spot on the paint, than chip through paint. I just looked at ebay for A-Scan -- depth only at one spot -- NDT units like mine. I saw none. FYI, B-scan shows a depth profile over a line -- most side-scrolling fish-finders are like B-scan devices. C-scan is depth over an area, so full 3D. The Opthalmic (to measure eyes) A and B scan units are really expensive but some show the result on a oscilloscope screen so one could compare any material of an unknown thickness to a sample of the same material of a known thickness. #ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 -- #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 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#ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-479334526 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463 #ygrps-yiv-479334526yiv5591805463ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-479334526 | 35137|35127|2018-05-28 18:16:18|brentswain38|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|The common weight of most ferro cement hulls is the same as for 1/4 plate, or more. If the hull and decks are 1/4 inch plate , that would be over 2,000 lbs over 3/16th on the travel lift scale. I doubt very much that it is that thick . 1/4 inch would definitely be too heavy for decks cabin, cockpit and skeg , and that boat would be far more than 15,000 lbs on the travel lift scale. Matt's suggestions will give you a good idea on how thick it really is. Where the keel joins the hull is another spot where you may find a plate edge to measure.| 35138|35127|2018-05-28 19:22:32|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| I have no idea if gel can be used on the ebay meters. The transducer might not be liquid tight, not really, not industrial spec. I cant answer if it must be used, that the manual might say. The meters must do some signal processing and make assumptions about reflections to decide what a valid signal is. There is always some internal reflection at the measurement face of the transducer. The machine must be programmed to eliminate that return signal from consideration, likely by using a valid window. Then there would be a return signal from the bottom of the paint/top of the metal. All these reflections cut down the amplitude and energy reaching the metal. The reflection from the far side of the metal would be a fraction of this power, then it loses power again at the paint/metal interface, then again at the paint/transducer interface. The gel will not change the fact that the paint may be in the valid window, however, it will reduce energy loss at the transducer/paint interface, twice, making the return signal from the far side of the metal stronger. Fingers crossed, the stronger signal is selected as the most relevant and displayed. Now, return signals are proportional to the magnitude of the mismatch of acoustic impedance. (See google for clever experiments with heavy and light springs in sequence for an illustration.) Steel to air is a bad match, so good reflections from the inside of the metal is bare on the inside. Spots with foam, or wood cabinets, not so good. Your observations and data from metal in various states illustrates the quirks and usefulness, after one has gotten used to a particular instrument on samples similar to the target structure. I am used to looking at an oscilloscope screen where human eyes see the full set of reflections and one can move the cursor to measure between the reflections -- paint, rust, entirely unimportant if enough power penetrates to get a large enough echo recognize by eye. My Dad always complained of "idiot lights" on the dashboard of cars without gauges. He preferred gauges, as I think most of us do because you can see how hot, nit just hotter than some arbitrary number. Well a scope screen is another step above a gauge. I was showing my bias to see the forest of reflections. With a scope screen on could find and measure internal structure, even if covered with foam or behind cabinets. Your measurements prove the usefulness of the thickness meter you have Darren. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, May 28, 18:13 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Matt, You do need to use ultrasonic gel with the cheap ebay meter. I'd always assumed that the more expensive meters were using more sophisticated filtering to deal with the component of reflection that you get as you pass from paint to metal. I had a couple of pieces I cut out from my hull handy so here is an example of what the cheap meter is capable of. With 0.25" (6.6mm) thick aluminum it reads 6.6 for clean bare metal. For a piece with several layers of Brightsides polyurethane it reads 7.1 mm from the painted side, 6.6 from the non painted side and the paint plus aluminum measures 6.7 mm with vernier calipers. So, with a relatively thin coat of paint it would be good enough to tell you the difference between 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4" decks. I also had a piece of hull with many layers of epoxy and bottom paint. From the rough slightly corroded side, it read 7.1mm, cleaning that up with 180 grit sandpaper yielded 6.6 mm, from the painted side it read 10.1 mm while the paint plus aluminum measured 8mm with vernier calipers. Measurements taken from a painted surface are also much more variable than those from clean metal. When we were boat shopping a few years back, I bought mine on ebay for something like $60CAN, I see there are ones that can be had for $77CAN now. For that price it has been useful enough. When we were boat shopping I could usually find a place to check things like the nominal thickness of the hull and decks. I had thought it might be useful to search for corrosion as well, but no longer think so. Both this unit and the ones used by surveyors have pretty limited utility when searching for corrosion. The area you look at with the meter is less than a square centimeter, you can only look at so many spots on the hull and the chances of you finding a small spot of corrosion with a random pattern are almost nil. Large patches of corrosion are likely to be discovered with the meter, but the standard issue eyeball is also pretty good for that. I suppose the meter does have value in that it tells you how much material is left in the corroded area, sometimes corrosion looks worse than it is. Darren On 18-05-28 08:44 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: The correct Princess Auto link: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/ultrasonic-thickness-gauge/A-p8601205e $160 is pricey especially if there it no way for it to work through paint. Perhaps some ultrasonic gel ? Perhaps the machine can only handle one speed of sound discontinuity to allow it to work dry, but with gel it might work through paint... Just a thought. I would rather have a greasy spot on the paint, than chip through paint. I just looked at ebay for A-Scan -- depth only at one spot -- NDT units like mine. I saw none. FYI, B-scan shows a depth profile over a line -- most side-scrolling fish-finders are like B-scan devices. C-scan is depth over an area, so full 3D. The Opthalmic (to measure eyes) A and B scan units are really expensive but some show the result on a oscilloscope screen so one could compare any material of an unknown thickness to a sample of the same material of a known thickness. | 35139|35127|2018-05-29 10:00:01|jhess314|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??|Thanks to Darren, Matt and Aaron for your discussion of ultrasonic thickness meters. I've learned about 1000% more than I previously knew.I've received a 2010 survey via the boat broker. The surveyor claims that both the hull and the deck are 1/4" plate. The hull configuration is flush-deck, with a very low pilot house, plus a cockpit. Headroom is 5'8" in the salon.The boat was designed by Gilbert Caroff, of France. I understand that he designed a number of boats for high latitude use. So maybe the 1/4" hull makes sense, for iceberg bashing. But still not so sure why a 1/4" deck?One of my concerns is that if the boat is too top-heavy then it might not right from a knockdown or roll-over. That capability is important to me. Not sure how I'd assess that characteristic without either the assurance of the designer, or the on-the-water experience of a user?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :1/4" plate sounds too thick for the deck and could negatively effect stability. There is a chance the seller is wrong, as the displacement and ballast are not far off other boats built of thinner scantlings. Do you know the displacement and ballast that the design is supposed to have, heavier displacement or lighter ballast might point to heavier plate having been used. I have one of those inexpensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that can be found on ebay or princess auto. It works well, but it has to be used on bare metal, it won't work through paint. If, you can't remove some paint or remove a fitting, a marine surveyor that works with metal boats is likely to have one of the more expensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that will work through coatings. | 35140|35127|2018-05-29 10:01:54|jhess314|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck|I know the gaff-rigged ferro-cement boat Hannah has been sailed extensively at high latitudes. I suppose that speaks well of her ability to handle gnarly water, in spite of her weight.http://gafferhannah.blogspot.com/---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The common weight of most ferro cement hulls is the same as for 1/4 plate, or more.If the hull and decks are 1/4 inch plate , that would be over 2,000 lbs over 3/16th on the travel lift scale. I doubt very much that it is that thick . 1/4 inch would definitely be too heavy for decks cabin, cockpit and skeg , and that boat would be far more than 15,000 lbs on the travel lift scale. Matt's suggestions will give you a good idea on how thick it really is. Where the keel joins the hull is another spot where you may find a plate edge to measure.| 35141|35127|2018-05-29 10:31:53|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??| 5'8" is low headroom, that is probably how the designer compensated for 1/4" plate in the deck. Falling ice is a hazard in the high arctic. The boat is stiffest in the plunge direction, tons per inch, so ice falling is like hitting an anvil. Why does ice fall? You are sailing one day, the little growlers are nicely spaced, anchor and go to bed, wind shifts, they pack up around you and before you know it, ramping and falling ice. Also flush thick deck provides far more beam-wise squeeze strength reinforcing to the hull over a thinner arched deck structure with a high doghouse. If one leaves the boat anchored and ice blows in and out it is less to worry about. Besides someone said the narrow boats that play bumper cars in the English canals are 1/4". There you can step out onto the bank. Would you want less with 5 ton growlers yards away and the next port 30 miles down the coast? Remember, solid glass and solid wood decks can be very heavy too, so comparison to thin steel is not convicting of poor stability. My 1958 solid glass boat has over 6' of headroom everywhere, close to 7' near the hatch and it weighs 19,000 pounds, more than might think of that is the solid glass deck. That sounds like a boat I would look at for the right price. Matt From: j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 10:02 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Thanks to Darren, Matt and Aaron for your discussion of ultrasonic thickness meters. I've learned about 1000% more than I previously knew. I've received a 2010 survey via the boat broker. The surveyor claims that both the hull and the deck are 1/4" plate. The hull configuration is flush-deck, with a very low pilot house, plus a cockpit. Headroom is 5'8" in the salon. The boat was designed by Gilbert Caroff, of France. I understand that he designed a number of boats for high latitude use. So maybe the 1/4" hull makes sense, for iceberg bashing. But still not so sure why a 1/4" deck? One of my concerns is that if the boat is too top-heavy then it might not right from a knockdown or roll-over. That capability is important to me. Not sure how I'd assess that characteristic without either the assurance of the designer, or the on-the-water experience of a user? John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 1/4" plate sounds too thick for the deck and could negatively effect stability. There is a chance the seller is wrong, as the displacement and ballast are not far off other boats built of thinner scantlings. Do you know the displacement and ballast that the design is supposed to have, heavier displacement or lighter ballast might point to heavier plate having been used. I have one of those inexpensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that can be found on ebay or princess auto. It works well, but it has to be used on bare metal, it won't work through paint. If, you can't remove some paint or remove a fitting, a marine surveyor that works with metal boats is likely to have one of the more expensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that will work through coatings. | 35142|35127|2018-05-29 12:29:43|Darren Bos|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| In theory, yes Aaron, but for those without formal ultrasound training thinking of getting one of the ebay ultrasound units, the actual function has nuance.Â The numbers I gave show the ebay meters are not returning paint plus plate thickness when used through thick layers of paint on the outside of the hull. I think most users would be most interested in below-the-waterline measurements where most problems tend to occur.Â Here you are going to have a layer of epoxy or paint on the inside of a steel boat, and epoxy plus probably many layers of antifouling paint on the outside.Â Given the many layers of paint, and the way that bottom paint is applied (entrained air) you are unlikely to get reliable readings from the outside of the boat.Â In my test example the ultrasound meter measured 10.1mm for a plate that was actually 6.6mm with 1.4mm of paint.Â So the meter reads 10.1 mm when the actual combined thickness is 8mm.Â Because you inevitably have air in bottom paint as you roll it on, and often there are bonding problems between the many layers, ultrasound readings with the ebay meter are so variable and inaccurate from the outside of a hull they are useless.Â However, if you want to use the meter inside the hull with fewer layers of paint, or if you want to measure the thickness or remaining plate in an area that you have found corrosion, then the tool has some merit. On 18-05-28 01:56 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â As long as the paint or coatings are firmly attached no air or delamination of coating any of the ultrasound type units for spot thickness reading will work plus or minus there rated accuracy and the coating thickness on the tested side only. The tester will not tell you the is or is not any coating on the other side. If you want 100% accuracy then one must buff sand or blast the coating and or corrosion away from test area. UT level 1 basic informationÂ Aaron | 35143|35127|2018-05-29 13:44:55|Darren Bos|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??| John, Given some survey reports I've seen, I'm not sure that info is any better than a best guess from the owner.Â I've seen survey reports with glaring errors that were obviously just copied over from previous errors without ever actually checking what was in/on the boat. Taking a quick look at Gilbert Caroff's website I have the following thoughts.Â If it was drawn with 1/4" plate on the deck then the stability is likely to be fine given the designer's credentials and high altitude sailing experience.Â However, a lot of his boats look to be amateur built (not a bad thing) and if someone substituted 1/4" plate because that is what they had on hand, or just to "make it stronger", then the stability would be negatively effected, especially if the ballast was not modified at the same time.Â If you are remote from the boat, I would try contacting Caroff's office (if someone is still maintaining it) and see if study plans are available, they are sometimes inexpensive and should include the scantlings.Â If you have access to the boat and it is in the water, then a roll test can give you a beginning of an idea if the ballast is sufficient to offset the heavier decks.Â I think one of Dave Gerr's books (maybe The Nature of Boats) goes into more details on the roll test, but I don't have access to my copies right now to check. Good Luck on your search. On 18-05-29 06:54 AM, j.hess@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Thanks to Darren, Matt and Aaron for your discussion of ultrasonic thickness meters. I've learned about 1000% more than I previously knew. I've received a 2010 survey via the boat broker. The surveyor claims that both the hull and the deck are 1/4" plate. The hull configuration is flush-deck, with a very low pilot house, plus a cockpit. Headroom is 5'8" in the salon. The boat was designed by Gilbert Caroff, of France. I understand that he designed a number of boats for high latitude use. So maybe the 1/4" hull makes sense, for iceberg bashing. But still not so sure why a 1/4" deck? One of my concerns is that if the boat is too top-heavy then it might not right from a knockdown or roll-over. That capability is important to me. Not sure how I'd assess that characteristic without either the assurance of the designer, or the on-the-water experience of a user? John | 35144|35127|2018-05-29 14:10:34|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??| 5'8" is low headroom, that is probably how the designer compensated for 1/4" plate in the deck. Falling ice is a hazard in the high arctic. The boat is stiffest in the plunge direction, tons per inch, so ice falling is like hitting an anvil. Why does ice fall? You are sailing one day, the little growlers are nicely spaced, anchor and go to bed, wind shifts, they pack up around you and before you know it, ramping and falling ice. Also flush thick deck provides far more beam-wise squeeze strength reinforcing to the hull over a thinner arched deck structure with a high doghouse. If one leaves the boat anchored and ice blows in and out it is less to worry about. Besides someone said the narrow boats that play bumper cars in the English canals are 1/4". There you can step out onto the bank. Would you want less with 5 ton growlers yards away and the next port 30 miles down the coast? Remember, solid glass and solid wood decks can be very heavy too, so comparison to thin steel is not convicting of poor stability. My 1958 solid glass boat has over 6' of headroom everywhere, close to 7' near the hatch and it weighs 19,000 pounds, more than might think of that is the solid glass deck. That sounds like a boat I would look at for the right price. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 9:54 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?? Thanks to Darren, Matt and Aaron for your discussion of ultrasonic thickness meters. I've learned about 1000% more than I previously knew. I've received a 2010 survey via the boat broker. The surveyor claims that both the hull and the deck are 1/4" plate. The hull configuration is flush-deck, with a very low pilot house, plus a cockpit. Headroom is 5'8" in the salon. The boat was designed by Gilbert Caroff, of France. I understand that he designed a number of boats for high latitude use. So maybe the 1/4" hull makes sense, for iceberg bashing. But still not so sure why a 1/4" deck? One of my concerns is that if the boat is too top-heavy then it might not right from a knockdown or roll-over. That capability is important to me. Not sure how I'd assess that characteristic without either the assurance of the designer, or the on-the-water experience of a user? John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 1/4" plate sounds too thick for the deck and could negatively effect stability. There is a chance the seller is wrong, as the displacement and ballast are not far off other boats built of thinner scantlings. Do you know the displacement and ballast that the design is supposed to have, heavier displacement or lighter ballast might point to heavier plate having been used. I have one of those inexpensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that can be found on ebay or princess auto. It works well, but it has to be used on bare metal, it won't work through paint. If, you can't remove some paint or remove a fitting, a marine surveyor that works with metal boats is likely to have one of the more expensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that will work through coatings. | 35145|35127|2018-05-29 22:41:52|Brian Stannard|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??|If there is an item of hardware bolted to the deck it could be removed and the thickness measured through the bolt hole.I agree that 1/4" is too thick. Framed many steel boats of that size and larger have decks 1/8" thick. On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 6:54 AM, j.hess@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Thanks to Darren, Matt and Aaron for your discussion of ultrasonic thickness meters. I've learned about 1000% more than I previously knew.I've received a 2010 survey via the boat broker. The surveyor claims that both the hull and the deck are 1/4" plate. The hull configuration is flush-deck, with a very low pilot house, plus a cockpit. Headroom is 5'8" in the salon.The boat was designed by Gilbert Caroff, of France. I understand that he designed a number of boats for high latitude use. So maybe the 1/4" hull makes sense, for iceberg bashing. But still not so sure why a 1/4" deck?One of my concerns is that if the boat is too top-heavy then it might not right from a knockdown or roll-over. That capability is important to me. Not sure how I'd assess that characteristic without either the assurance of the designer, or the on-the-water experience of a user?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :1/4" plate sounds too thick for the deck and could negatively effect stability.Â There is a chance the seller is wrong, as the displacement and ballast are not far off other boats built of thinner scantlings.Â Do you know the displacement and ballast that the design is supposed to have, heavier displacement or lighter ballast might point to heavier plate having been used.Â I have one of those inexpensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that can be found on ebay or princess auto.Â It works well, but it has to be used on bare metal, it won't work through paint.Â If, you can't remove some paint or remove a fitting, a marine surveyor that works with metal boats is likely to have one of the more expensive ultrasonic thickness gauges that will work through coatings. -- CheersBrian | 35146|35127|2018-05-31 02:03:06|Aaron|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|DarrenI agree with you 99%Ultrasound works by direct contact so in order to create that contact you must use a couplant of some type because the sound wave created will not cross the air gap barrier. The types of gels very depending on temperature and applications but the purpose for theit use is the same.One would have to be able calibrate the meter to the expected thickness of the steel. Then depending on the quality of the coating you would be able tell the steels relative thickness.If you want to know the coating thickness that's a different type of test meter.Like you said you get to many variations with cheep equipment some variable is the imperfections in steel coating and meters. Also it take a few hours of hands on instruction to learn how to use most UT meters where more advanced shearwave tech can take years to master interpretation of the anomalies that can be found.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: In theory, yes Aaron, but for those without formal ultrasound training thinking of getting one of the ebay ultrasound units, the actual function has nuance. The numbers I gave show the ebay meters are not returning paint plus plate thickness when used through thick layers of paint on the outside of the hull. I think most users would be most interested in below-the-waterline measurements where most problems tend to occur. Here you are going to have a layer of epoxy or paint on the inside of a steel boat, and epoxy plus probably many layers of antifouling paint on the outside. Given the many layers of paint, and the way that bottom paint is applied (entrained air) you are unlikely to get reliable readings from the outside of the boat. In my test example the ultrasound meter measured 10.1mm for a plate that was actually 6.6mm with 1.4mm of paint. So the meter reads 10.1 mm when the actual combined thickness is 8mm. Because you inevitably have air in bottom paint as you roll it on, and often there are bonding problems between the many layers, ultrasound readings with the ebay meter are so variable and inaccurate from the outside of a hull they are useless. However, if you want to use the meter inside the hull with fewer layers of paint, or if you want to measure the thickness or remaining plate in an area that you have found corrosion, then the tool has some merit. On 18-05-28 01:56 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: As long as the paint or coatings are firmly attached no air or delamination of coating any of the ultrasound type units for spot thickness reading will work plus or minus there rated accuracy and the coating thickness on the tested side only. The tester will not tell you the is or is not any coating on the other side. If you want 100% accuracy then one must buff sand or blast the coating and or corrosion away from test area. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1375161902 #ygrps-yiv-1375161902yiv4076135679 #ygrps-yiv-1375161902yiv4076135679ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1375161902 #ygrps-yiv-1375161902yiv4076135679 #ygrps-yiv-1375161902yiv4076135679ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1375161902 | 35147|35127|2018-05-31 10:11:14|jhess314|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??|Darren,Thanks for the roll test article. It provides an easy, if crude, way to get an idea of whether a boat is top-heavy or not. Sadly, the boat I'm interested in is on the hard, and I am 700 miles away from it.When I first tried to access the article I was blocked by a paywall. Eventually I used Google to search for the article title (Use This Sailboat Stability Secret for Safer Sailing), and found that some of the time Google returned a link that bypassed the paywall, and sometimes not. So if someone wants to read the article but gets blocked by the paywall, keep trying with Google, perhaps using slightly different search terms.It's a good idea to try and get a study plan from the Caroff office. I'm also going to try and contact the owner, rather than rely on the broker for information.The survey said the boat was built by Robert Fleury, maybe of Canada. Does anyone recognize the name as a reputable builder?Here's a link to a poor photo from the 2010 survey showing rust in the bilges. From the photo can anyone assess whether the rust is significant or not?https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg View on s15.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo Thanks,John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :John, Given some survey reports I've seen, I'm not sure that info is any better than a best guess from the owner. I've seen survey reports with glaring errors that were obviously just copied over from previous errors without ever actually checking what was in/on the boat.Taking a quick look at Gilbert Caroff's website I have the following thoughts. If it was drawn with 1/4" plate on the deck then the stability is likely to be fine given the designer's credentials and high altitude sailing experience. However, a lot of his boats look to be amateur built (not a bad thing) and if someone substituted 1/4" plate because that is what they had on hand, or just to "make it stronger", then the stability would be negatively effected, especially if the ballast was not modified at the same time. If you are remote from the boat, I would try contacting Caroff's office (if someone is still maintaining it) and see if study plans are available, they are sometimes inexpensive and should include the scantlings. If you have access to the boat and it is in the water, then a roll test can give you a beginning of an idea if the ballast is sufficient to offset the heavier decks. I think one of Dave Gerr's books (maybe The Nature of Boats) goes into more details on the roll test, but I don't have access to my copies right now to check.Good Luck on your search. | 35148|35127|2018-05-31 12:00:59|Darren Bos|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| Agreed, There is clearly a lot to be learned with ultrasound, and a well trained professional with an expensive machine could do more than can be done with a $70 ebay unit.Â I do think trying to shoot through thick bottom paint stacks the odds against even a well trained individual and a good quality machine.Â If you are working from the inside of the hull then a guy could get reasonable results from the ebay unit with some care. Just to make sure I haven't missed something.Â You are talking about setting the velocity appropriate to steel (or whatever you are measuring) and then calibrating it on an appropriate piece of the material, and then taking your actual measurements through paint to get the thickness of the steel.Â You're not talking about messing around with the velocity parameter to compensate for the presence of paint or calibrating on a piece that has paint, are you? Thanks, Darren On 18-05-30 10:48 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Darren I agree with you 99% Ultrasound works by direct contact so in order to create that contact you must use a couplant of some type because the sound wave created will not cross the air gap barrier.Â The types of gels very depending on temperature and applications but the purpose for theit use is the same. One would have to be able calibrate the meter to the expected thickness of the steel. Then depending on the quality of the coating you would be able tell the steels relative thickness. If you want to know the coating thickness that's a different type of test meter. Like you said you get to many variations with cheep equipment some variable is the imperfections in steel coating and meters. Also it take a few hours of hands on instruction to learn how to use most UT meters where more advanced shearwave tech can take years to master interpretation of the anomalies that can be found. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â In theory, yes Aaron, but for those without formal ultrasound training thinking of getting one of the ebay ultrasound units, the actual function has nuance.Â The numbers I gave show the ebay meters are not returning paint plus plate thickness when used through thick layers of paint on the outside of the hull. I think most users would be most interested in below-the-waterline measurements where most problems tend to occur.Â Here you are going to have a layer of epoxy or paint on the inside of a steel boat, and epoxy plus probably many layers of antifouling paint on the outside.Â Given the many layers of paint, and the way that bottom paint is applied (entrained air) you are unlikely to get reliable readings from the outside of the boat.Â In my test example the ultrasound meter measured 10.1mm for a plate that was actually 6.6mm with 1.4mm of paint.Â So the meter reads 10.1 mm when the actual combined thickness is 8mm.Â Because you inevitably have air in bottom paint as you roll it on, and often there are bonding problems between the many layers, ultrasound readings with the ebay meter are so variable and inaccurate from the outside of a hull they are useless.Â However, if you want to use the meter inside the hull with fewer layers of paint, or if you want to measure the thickness or remaining plate in an area that you have found corrosion, then the tool has some merit. | 35149|35127|2018-05-31 14:27:43|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??| Hello John, Origami boats has not been taking my posts lately, but I will try again... I believe I found the boat listing. That boat has very little freeboard, and a lot of the body is deep in the water, judging from the water line. There is no doubt a BS would float more on top of the water, and this is firmly buried into it. The deck would not be very far above the center of buoyancy, therefore it is not nearly as destabilizing as one might think if one did not see the boat with the high water line on the side. As you said it is a flush deck, and I can see the low headroom below. The 1/4" steel decks would not bother me at all. I am still remembering that a solid glass deck could be heavier, and solid wood decks on an arctic boat could be heavier too. The 1/4" steel decks would not bother me at all, in fact, on a flush deck boat they would provide a lot of beamwise stiffness to the boat versus being packed in ice because of a change in wind one day, or squished between a big ship and the inside of a lock. I am not going to talk uselessly about a case that would leave a thinner steel boat dented and this one not because the window in energy between what would not dent a thinner boat, and the upper limit where this boat would survive might be 1/10th what a freighter could do -- maybe in 10% of cases one would see a difference in outcome. Suffice it to say, on a flush-deck boat, there are good structural reasons to go thick on the deck plate. I really think far too much importance is being put on the 1/4" deck. Suffice it to say, I think it is an asset. I am more interested in what I do not see in the photos. - where is the photo of the cockpit ? - where is the photo taken from the back of the cockpit looking toward the companionway ? - where is the photo standing in the cockpit at the top of the companionway looking down into the boat. - where is the photo from inside the boat looking out those windows all around the raised deck area near the companionway ? I would be more interested what is behind that white wood on the inside -- insulation ? , and how does one get better access to the engine. The next thing I would consider is the low freeboard, and the shallow cockpit (it has to be shallow because the water line on the side is so high and it is still self-draining) and going into waves. People called the Contessa 32 a wet boat, even a submarine, with waves sweeping unbroken over it. Long before one would actually observe the 1/4" decks influencing an actual reduction in roll recovery moment (which I am not saying is at all a major concern, nor am I dismissing), if one were merely in weather where roll recovery is a though at all, then it seems one would already be standing in a constantly full swimming pool while considering it. Before worrying about the 1/4" decks, I would consider any sort of cockpit protection, leeboards, that angled flange one sees on the deck just aft of the maximum beam that directs water racing down the deck toward the cockpit and redirects it over the side, even a wind-screen like deflection barrier if not a cuddy at the front of the cockpit. Is inside steering a possibility ? If anything concerned me (and not saying it does) I would compute the reserve buoyancy of the boat assuming the top of the black is the water line, and take a very close look at the hatches / companionway to make sure it seals quite tightly -- not drip proof but far slower to let water in than a casual manual pumping can keep ahead of. I would look at the lowest opening that I could not keep water from leaking into at a 5 gallons/minute or more rate (about what one gets from a garden hose faucet) and figure out how much water would have to be in the boat before that opening is underwater. I am not being alarmist, but, boats that float more on top of the water, like a giant piece of styrofoam, they have such a ridiculous amount of reserve buoyancy I would not be as concerned with how tightly it was possible to seal them. It seems to me for every day one might spend actually observing the 1/4" deck have any observable impact, one would be spending a month knee deep in a cold swimming pool. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?? Darren, Thanks for the roll test article. It provides an easy, if crude, way to get an idea of whether a boat is top-heavy or not. Sadly, the boat I'm interested in is on the hard, and I am 700 miles away from it. When I first tried to access the article I was blocked by a paywall. Eventually I used Google to search for the article title (Use This Sailboat Stability Secret for Safer Sailing), and found that some of the time Google returned a link that bypassed the paywall, and sometimes not. So if someone wants to read the article but gets blocked by the paywall, keep trying with Google, perhaps using slightly different search terms. It's a good idea to try and get a study plan from the Caroff office. I'm also going to try and contact the owner, rather than rely on the broker for information. The survey said the boat was built by Robert Fleury, maybe of Canada. Does anyone recognize the name as a reputable builder? Here's a link to a poor photo from the 2010 survey showing rust in the bilges. From the photo can anyone assess whether the rust is significant or not? https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg View on s15.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo Thanks, John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : John, Given some survey reports I've seen, I'm not sure that info is any better than a best guess from the owner. I've seen survey reports with glaring errors that were obviously just copied over from previous errors without ever actually checking what was in/on the boat. Taking a quick look at Gilbert Caroff's website I have the following thoughts. If it was drawn with 1/4" plate on the deck then the stability is likely to be fine given the designer's credentials and high altitude sailing experience. However, a lot of his boats look to be amateur built (not a bad thing) and if someone substituted 1/4" plate because that is what they had on hand, or just to "make it stronger", then the stability would be negatively effected, especially if the ballast was not modified at the same time. If you are remote from the boat, I would try contacting Caroff's office (if someone is still maintaining it) and see if study plans are available, they are sometimes inexpensive and should include the scantlings. If you have access to the boat and it is in the water, then a roll test can give you a beginning of an idea if the ballast is sufficient to offset the heavier decks. I think one of Dave Gerr's books (maybe The Nature of Boats) goes into more details on the roll test, but I don't have access to my copies right now to check. Good Luck on your search. | 35150|35127|2018-05-31 15:18:59|brentswain38|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|Any thick grease to eliminate the air space works. I have used lard effectively .| 35151|35127|2018-05-31 15:27:56|brentswain38|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??|Looking at the shape of the midship section will give you an idea of self righting ability. A beach ball with a tiny amount of ballast is completely self righting., A raft with a 70% ballast ratio is not. So the closer your midships section is to a ball( rounder), narrow beam and high camber cabintop or deck ,and the less it resembles a raft ( wide beam and flat, flush deck) the more self righting it will be.| 35152|35127|2018-05-31 15:33:51|brentswain38|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??|When considering "Squeeze strength " one should consider a steel deck to be a longitudinal ,fully welded steel bulkhead, with a tensile strength along it's inside edge of around 7,000 lbs per linear inch. No lack of 'Squeeze strength" there---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 5'8" is low headroom, that is probably how the designer compensated for 1/4" plate in the deck. Falling ice is a hazard in the high arctic. The boat is stiffest in the plunge direction, tons per inch, so ice falling is like hitting an anvil. Why does ice fall? You are sailing one day, the little growlers are nicely spaced, anchor and go to bed, wind shifts, they pack up around you and before you know it, ramping and falling ice. Also flush thick deck provides far more beam-wise squeeze strength reinforcing to the hull over a thinner arched deck structure with a high doghouse. If one leaves the boat anchored and ice blows in and out it is less to worry about. | 35153|35127|2018-05-31 18:04:55|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| I like the idea of lard for ultrasonic gel. It is nontoxic, and I doubt it affects paint or plastics. The same may not be said of some petroleum based greases or gels. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 17:09 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 1/4" plate for hull and deck? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Any thick grease to eliminate the air space works. I have used lard effectively . | 35154|35127|2018-05-31 23:37:45|Aaron|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?| Yes steel for steel. I have not met anyone that could calibrate for the coatings yet, but I know a few that tried. On Thursday, May 31, 2018, 8:01:07 AM AKDT, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Agreed, There is clearly a lot to be learned with ultrasound, and a well trained professional with an expensive machine could do more than can be done with a $70 ebay unit. I do think trying to shoot through thick bottom paint stacks the odds against even a well trained individual and a good quality machine. If you are working from the inside of the hull then a guy could get reasonable results from the ebay unit with some care. Just to make sure I haven't missed something. You are talking about setting the velocity appropriate to steel (or whatever you are measuring) and then calibrating it on an appropriate piece of the material, and then taking your actual measurements through paint to get the thickness of the steel. You're not talking about messing around with the velocity parameter to compensate for the presence of paint or calibrating on a piece that has paint, are you? Thanks, Darren On 18-05-30 10:48 PM, Aaron akenai@... [origamiboats] wrote: Darren I agree with you 99% Ultrasound works by direct contact so in order to create that contact you must use a couplant of some type because the sound wave created will not cross the air gap barrier. The types of gels very depending on temperature and applications but the purpose for theit use is the same. One would have to be able calibrate the meter to the expected thickness of the steel. Then depending on the quality of the coating you would be able tell the steels relative thickness. If you want to know the coating thickness that's a different type of test meter. Like you said you get to many variations with cheep equipment some variable is the imperfections in steel coating and meters. Also it take a few hours of hands on instruction to learn how to use most UT meters where more advanced shearwave tech can take years to master interpretation of the anomalies that can be found. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: In theory, yes Aaron, but for those without formal ultrasound training thinking of getting one of the ebay ultrasound units, the actual function has nuance. The numbers I gave show the ebay meters are not returning paint plus plate thickness when used through thick layers of paint on the outside of the hull. I think most users would be most interested in below-the-waterline measurements where most problems tend to occur. Here you are going to have a layer of epoxy or paint on the inside of a steel boat, and epoxy plus probably many layers of antifouling paint on the outside. Given the many layers of paint, and the way that bottom paint is applied (entrained air) you are unlikely to get reliable readings from the outside of the boat. In my test example the ultrasound meter measured 10.1mm for a plate that was actually 6.6mm with 1.4mm of paint. So the meter reads 10.1 mm when the actual combined thickness is 8mm. Because you inevitably have air in bottom paint as you roll it on, and often there are bonding problems between the many layers, ultrasound readings with the ebay meter are so variable and inaccurate from the outside of a hull they are useless. However, if you want to use the meter inside the hull with fewer layers of paint, or if you want to measure the thickness or remaining plate in an area that you have found corrosion, then the tool has some merit. | 35155|35127|2018-06-01 10:37:42|Matt Malone|Light Steel| I was encouraged to post this in light of the recent posts with regard to a 1/4" steel boat, when viewed in the context of the historic mass of boats. https://assets.heart.co.uk/2015/36/hoegh-target-worlds-biggest-car-carrier-ship-1441689395-large-article-0.jpg This is a boat undoubtly made of steel, and look at it. A piece of styrofoam would not float as high out of the water. That hull could be 90% full of water and it would still not sink. Incredible reserve buoyancies while retaining strength and stiffness are possible when working in steel. One may get spoiled very easily and forget that such reserve buoyancies were not possible with wood or solid glass for instance. The materials were either weak (wood) or not very stiff (glass) requiring a lot more material to get acceptable results. The great strength and stiffness of steel allow for much more slender construction that works out to far less mass for a given footprint in the water, and greater reserve buoyancy but potentially less grip on the water for going to wind etc -- in the sense that some old boats had a good grip on the water by having 2/3 to 3/4 of their hull under water. Here are some examples of boats following the Colin Archer type designs. They are firmly in the water. http://www.kastenmarine.com/fantom.htm The 36' Double Ended Cutter "FANTOM" - Kasten Marine www.kastenmarine.com The 36' double-ended sailing yacht FANTOM. A rounded hull in steel for high latitude sailing. https://www.devalk.nl/images/thumbnails/website/ver-hoek-styled-colin-archer-250240_2e.jpg I will remind the reader that it was only this type of boat which received an unqualified positive evaluation in C.J.Marchaj's Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor -- many other designs were examined and both strengths and weaknesses were discussed. Without knowing the exact thickness of the deck, I think we can all look at the waterline and say these are darn heavy boats for their size. It is not at all unreasonable to ask about roll moment in a heavy-built boat, but, lets be reasonable, some very seaworthy boats were far heavier using more traditional designs and other materials, so, there is really no way for anyone to be certain that a heavy built boat will not be seaworthy without an actual test, like a roll moment test, or a great deal of detailed dimensional data and computations. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 2:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?? Hello John, Origami boats has not been taking my posts lately, but I will try again... I believe I found the boat listing. That boat has very little freeboard, and a lot of the body is deep in the water, judging from the water line. There is no doubt a BS would float more on top of the water, and this is firmly buried into it. The deck would not be very far above the center of buoyancy, therefore it is not nearly as destabilizing as one might think if one did not see the boat with the high water line on the side. As you said it is a flush deck, and I can see the low headroom below. The 1/4" steel decks would not bother me at all. I am still remembering that a solid glass deck could be heavier, and solid wood decks on an arctic boat could be heavier too. The 1/4" steel decks would not bother me at all, in fact, on a flush deck boat they would provide a lot of beamwise stiffness to the boat versus being packed in ice because of a change in wind one day, or squished between a big ship and the inside of a lock. I am not going to talk uselessly about a case that would leave a thinner steel boat dented and this one not because the window in energy between what would not dent a thinner boat, and the upper limit where this boat would survive might be 1/10th what a freighter could do -- maybe in 10% of cases one would see a difference in outcome. Suffice it to say, on a flush-deck boat, there are good structural reasons to go thick on the deck plate. I really think far too much importance is being put on the 1/4" deck. Suffice it to say, I think it is an asset. I am more interested in what I do not see in the photos. - where is the photo of the cockpit ? - where is the photo taken from the back of the cockpit looking toward the companionway ? - where is the photo standing in the cockpit at the top of the companionway looking down into the boat. - where is the photo from inside the boat looking out those windows all around the raised deck area near the companionway ? I would be more interested what is behind that white wood on the inside -- insulation ? , and how does one get better access to the engine. The next thing I would consider is the low freeboard, and the shallow cockpit (it has to be shallow because the water line on the side is so high and it is still self-draining) and going into waves. People called the Contessa 32 a wet boat, even a submarine, with waves sweeping unbroken over it. Long before one would actually observe the 1/4" decks influencing an actual reduction in roll recovery moment (which I am not saying is at all a major concern, nor am I dismissing), if one were merely in weather where roll recovery is a though at all, then it seems one would already be standing in a constantly full swimming pool while considering it. Before worrying about the 1/4" decks, I would consider any sort of cockpit protection, leeboards, that angled flange one sees on the deck just aft of the maximum beam that directs water racing down the deck toward the cockpit and redirects it over the side, even a wind-screen like deflection barrier if not a cuddy at the front of the cockpit. Is inside steering a possibility ? If anything concerned me (and not saying it does) I would compute the reserve buoyancy of the boat assuming the top of the black is the water line, and take a very close look at the hatches / companionway to make sure it seals quite tightly -- not drip proof but far slower to let water in than a casual manual pumping can keep ahead of. I would look at the lowest opening that I could not keep water from leaking into at a 5 gallons/minute or more rate (about what one gets from a garden hose faucet) and figure out how much water would have to be in the boat before that opening is underwater. I am not being alarmist, but, boats that float more on top of the water, like a giant piece of styrofoam, they have such a ridiculous amount of reserve buoyancy I would not be as concerned with how tightly it was possible to seal them. It seems to me for every day one might spend actually observing the 1/4" deck have any observable impact, one would be spending a month knee deep in a cold swimming pool. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?? Darren, Thanks for the roll test article. It provides an easy, if crude, way to get an idea of whether a boat is top-heavy or not. Sadly, the boat I'm interested in is on the hard, and I am 700 miles away from it. When I first tried to access the article I was blocked by a paywall. Eventually I used Google to search for the article title (Use This Sailboat Stability Secret for Safer Sailing), and found that some of the time Google returned a link that bypassed the paywall, and sometimes not. So if someone wants to read the article but gets blocked by the paywall, keep trying with Google, perhaps using slightly different search terms. It's a good idea to try and get a study plan from the Caroff office. I'm also going to try and contact the owner, rather than rely on the broker for information. The survey said the boat was built by Robert Fleury, maybe of Canada. Does anyone recognize the name as a reputable builder? Here's a link to a poor photo from the 2010 survey showing rust in the bilges. From the photo can anyone assess whether the rust is significant or not? https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg View on s15.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo Thanks, John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : John, Given some survey reports I've seen, I'm not sure that info is any better than a best guess from the owner. I've seen survey reports with glaring errors that were obviously just copied over from previous errors without ever actually checking what was in/on the boat. Taking a quick look at Gilbert Caroff's website I have the following thoughts. If it was drawn with 1/4" plate on the deck then the stability is likely to be fine given the designer's credentials and high altitude sailing experience. However, a lot of his boats look to be amateur built (not a bad thing) and if someone substituted 1/4" plate because that is what they had on hand, or just to "make it stronger", then the stability would be negatively effected, especially if the ballast was not modified at the same time. If you are remote from the boat, I would try contacting Caroff's office (if someone is still maintaining it) and see if study plans are available, they are sometimes inexpensive and should include the scantlings. If you have access to the boat and it is in the water, then a roll test can give you a beginning of an idea if the ballast is sufficient to offset the heavier decks. I think one of Dave Gerr's books (maybe The Nature of Boats) goes into more details on the roll test, but I don't have access to my copies right now to check. Good Luck on your search. | 35156|35127|2018-06-01 10:52:37|Matt Malone|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??| John, I look at that photo, and what I seem to be seeing is the keel coming up into the bilge of the boat, and the keel seems to be filled completely with some material. It looks to be painted, but, its flatness gives me the feeling of concrete, likely with steel scrap in it. Low density concrete ballast is far less effective pound-for-pound in the same keel because it fills the keel taller, and the top surface of the ballast is closer to the center of buoyancy. The center of mass of the ballast is not as deep, therefore one sees less righting moment per pound of ballast. The 4,500 pounds you were concerned about, may be reduced in its effectiveness because of what it is. I would ask clearly, what is the ballast made out of. Poured lead will be far more effective than concrete-anything, even for the exact same weight of ballast. This is likely to be a far larger factor it its roll-recovery moment. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of j.hess@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:11 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?? Darren, Thanks for the roll test article. It provides an easy, if crude, way to get an idea of whether a boat is top-heavy or not. Sadly, the boat I'm interested in is on the hard, and I am 700 miles away from it. When I first tried to access the article I was blocked by a paywall. Eventually I used Google to search for the article title (Use This Sailboat Stability Secret for Safer Sailing), and found that some of the time Google returned a link that bypassed the paywall, and sometimes not. So if someone wants to read the article but gets blocked by the paywall, keep trying with Google, perhaps using slightly different search terms. It's a good idea to try and get a study plan from the Caroff office. I'm also going to try and contact the owner, rather than rely on the broker for information. The survey said the boat was built by Robert Fleury, maybe of Canada. Does anyone recognize the name as a reputable builder? Here's a link to a poor photo from the 2010 survey showing rust in the bilges. From the photo can anyone assess whether the rust is significant or not? https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg https://s15.postimg.cc/punub5x17/bilge_rust.jpg View on s15.postimg.cc Preview by Yahoo Thanks, John ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : John, Given some survey reports I've seen, I'm not sure that info is any better than a best guess from the owner. I've seen survey reports with glaring errors that were obviously just copied over from previous errors without ever actually checking what was in/on the boat. Taking a quick look at Gilbert Caroff's website I have the following thoughts. If it was drawn with 1/4" plate on the deck then the stability is likely to be fine given the designer's credentials and high altitude sailing experience. However, a lot of his boats look to be amateur built (not a bad thing) and if someone substituted 1/4" plate because that is what they had on hand, or just to "make it stronger", then the stability would be negatively effected, especially if the ballast was not modified at the same time. If you are remote from the boat, I would try contacting Caroff's office (if someone is still maintaining it) and see if study plans are available, they are sometimes inexpensive and should include the scantlings. If you have access to the boat and it is in the water, then a roll test can give you a beginning of an idea if the ballast is sufficient to offset the heavier decks. I think one of Dave Gerr's books (maybe The Nature of Boats) goes into more details on the roll test, but I don't have access to my copies right now to check. Good Luck on your search. | 35157|35127|2018-06-01 16:04:02|brentswain38|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck??|The keel coming into the boat is good place to measure thickness.| 35158|35127|2018-06-01 16:06:57|brentswain38|Re: Light Steel|Given that Kasten has repeatedly claimed that origami can not be used for decks, cabins, wheelhouses, keels, rudders and skegs,something anyone here can see being done in the photos section and the video, something we have been doing since the outset ( which Kasten has been told, long ago) he is definitely not a reliable source of truth or judgement, nor worth paying for judgement or advice. When asked if he would attend the metal; boat festival, he responded with "Not if Brent Swain might be there!"One problem I have seen with full length keels is the inaccessibility in the back of them for maintenance. One could use it for tankage, but that puts a lot of weigh in the stern, where you need it least.You could cap it, and leave it empty, and airtight. It still constitutes about 300 to 400 lbs of steel dead weight in the stern.It also constitutes lot of extra work.With steel being as strong as it is, it is easy to build a skeg and keel massively over strength, strong enough to not be any worry about strength.Long fin keels and skegs on well balanced hulls have proven themselves for decades,and steel well done eliminates the structural worries, so why go backwards. Unless, you think like Bob Perry has said "I fit doesn't break, its overbuilt."I guess that is why the Perry boat recently mentioned in Sail Magazine went thru 3 goose necks just getting past Cape Horn. One didn't even make it past Mexico. The guy was pumping for his life the whole way around, despite Moitessier having proved that totally unnecessary over a half century earlier, if one chooses a good steel boat. | 35159|35159|2018-06-01 17:45:39|brentswain38|Painting wood inside lockers|Back in the 70s, an Aussie friend used to work on old wooden fishboats. He said if he saw a bulkhead which was painted both sides,he could stand back and throw a screwdriver thru it.( rotten). If it was painted one side only ,and could breath, it was usually in good shape . Paint inside lockers is not a preservative , and may encourage rot, by sealing moisture in. My Sitka spruce mast has not had paint on it in nearly 30 years, and is as solid as the day I stepped her. The rain goes in, and the rain dries out in summer. Bare wood inside lockers is not a problem, and may be a liability. The only justification for painting there is to make it look pretty when you plan to sell the boat.The surveyor will then find only solid, rot free wood there. My boat is 34 years old , wood has never been painted inside lockers, and it is fine. Spend your time and money on things which actually matter.| 35160|35127|2018-06-01 18:06:13|Matt Malone|Re: Light Steel| I was not meaning to re-ignite old arguments with Kasten or Perry. I wish I had chosen a different picture that simply illustrates, the water line is very high on heavy boats. At the same time, it is possible with steel to make a boat with huge reserve buoyancy, and a very low water line. The center of buoyancy is literally the volume-center of the part of the boat that is below the water. Therefore with a high reserve buoyancy and a low water line, one has a low center of buoyancy. Equally try, when one has a very low center of buoyancy, the deck is a very long distance from the center of buoyancy and can therefore be proportionately more destabilizing in proportion to its added weight, height, and the mass of the rest of the boat. Conversely, it is possible to make a very heavy steel boat that rides low in the water with a very high water line, low reserve buoyancy, and a high center of buoyancy. On these boats, a little added weight at deck level is not as far above the center of buoyancy and therefore has a smaller negative affect on stability. Remember, when boats sink they ALWAYS orient keel down once under water (assuming the keel is still there). A boat with very little reserve buoyancy is a boat much closer to sinking and therefore it is more likely to orient keel down, all other things being equal. In general, it is a boat that has very high reserve buoyancy that one has to be more concerned about it being very stable floating upside down and having undesirable roll recovery moments and a poor angle of vanishing stability. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 3:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Light Steel Given that Kasten has repeatedly claimed that origami can not be used for decks, cabins, wheelhouses, keels, rudders and skegs,something anyone here can see being done in the photos section and the video, something we have been doing since the outset ( which Kasten has been told, long ago) he is definitely not a reliable source of truth or judgement, nor worth paying for judgement or advice. When asked if he would attend the metal; boat festival, he responded with "Not if Brent Swain might be there!" One problem I have seen with full length keels is the inaccessibility in the back of them for maintenance. One could use it for tankage, but that puts a lot of weigh in the stern, where you need it least.You could cap it, and leave it empty, and airtight. It still constitutes about 300 to 400 lbs of steel dead weight in the stern.It also constitutes lot of extra work. With steel being as strong as it is, it is easy to build a skeg and keel massively over strength, strong enough to not be any worry about strength. Long fin keels and skegs on well balanced hulls have proven themselves for decades,and steel well done eliminates the structural worries, so why go backwards. Unless, you think like Bob Perry has said "I fit doesn't break, its overbuilt." I guess that is why the Perry boat recently mentioned in Sail Magazine went thru 3 goose necks just getting past Cape Horn. One didn't even make it past Mexico. The guy was pumping for his life the whole way around, despite Moitessier having proved that totally unnecessary over a half century earlier, if one chooses a good steel boat. | 35161|35159|2018-06-01 18:09:20|Matt Malone|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent, How to you keep surface mould from growing in lockers (painted or otherwise)? And how do you get mould out of a boat, particularly lockers and other closed-in areas? Any chemical secrets or treatments you recommend ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers Back in the 70s, an Aussie friend used to work on old wooden fishboats. He said if he saw a bulkhead which was painted both sides,he could stand back and throw a screwdriver thru it.( rotten). If it was painted one side only ,and could breath, it was usually in good shape . Paint inside lockers is not a preservative , and may encourage rot, by sealing moisture in. My Sitka spruce mast has not had paint on it in nearly 30 years, and is as solid as the day I stepped her. The rain goes in, and the rain dries out in summer. Bare wood inside lockers is not a problem, and may be a liability. The only justification for painting there is to make it look pretty when you plan to sell the boat.The surveyor will then find only solid, rot free wood there. My boat is 34 years old , wood has never been painted inside lockers, and it is fine. Spend your time and money on things which actually matter. | 35162|35159|2018-06-01 20:40:38|mountain man|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent, Is your spruce mast solid? Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 1 juin 2018 17:45:37 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers Back in the 70s, an Aussie friend used to work on old wooden fishboats. He said if he saw a bulkhead which was painted both sides,he could stand back and throw a screwdriver thru it.( rotten). If it was painted one side only ,and could breath, it was usually in good shape . Paint inside lockers is not a preservative , and may encourage rot, by sealing moisture in. My Sitka spruce mast has not had paint on it in nearly 30 years, and is as solid as the day I stepped her. The rain goes in, and the rain dries out in summer. Bare wood inside lockers is not a problem, and may be a liability. The only justification for painting there is to make it look pretty when you plan to sell the boat.The surveyor will then find only solid, rot free wood there. My boat is 34 years old , wood has never been painted inside lockers, and it is fine. Spend your time and money on things which actually matter. | 35163|35159|2018-06-02 11:17:06|a.sobriquet|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|I've heard that a mix of water and boric acid works. More toxic is to coat the wood with common antifreeze.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-824876934 #ygrps-yiv-824876934ygrps-yiv-456406808 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Brent, How to you keep surface mould from growing in lockers (painted or otherwise)? And how do you get mould out of a boat, particularly lockers and other closed-in areas? Any chemical secrets or treatments you recommend ? Matt| 35164|35127|2018-06-02 18:25:49|brentswain38|Re: Light Steel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One should bear in mind that a 2 inch layer of water weighs almost the same as 1/4 inch plate, slightly more. So an extra 2 inches of free board compensates for the weight of 1/4 inch plate, on a boat in the inverted position.It will decrease stability when above the water ,but when immersed, every inch of extra freeboard improves AVS ,by buoyancy on deck trying to right her. The same is true of watertight cabins and wheelhouses.The buoyancy of my wheelhouse is the equivalent of adding 3,000lbs of ballast, when the boat is in the inverted position. In many ways, that which adds to stability when upright, wide beam, flush decks, etc, detracts from it when inverted. #ygrps-yiv-1443367374 #ygrps-yiv-1443367374ygrps-yiv-1094636229 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I was not meaning to re-ignite old arguments with Kasten or Perry. I wish I had chosen a different picture that simply illustrates, the water line is very high on heavy boats. At the same time, it is possible with steel to make a boat with huge reserve buoyancy, and a very low water line. The center of buoyancy is literally the volume-center of the part of the boat that is below the water. Therefore with a high reserve buoyancy and a low water line, one has a low center of buoyancy. Equally try, when one has a very low center of buoyancy, the deck is a very long distance from the center of buoyancy and can therefore be proportionately more destabilizing in proportion to its added weight, height, and the mass of the rest of the boat. Conversely, it is possible to make a very heavy steel boat that rides low in the water with a very high water line, low reserve buoyancy, and a high center of buoyancy. On these boats, a little added weight at deck level is not as far above the center of buoyancy and therefore has a smaller negative affect on stability. Remember, when boats sink they ALWAYS orient keel down once under water (assuming the keel is still there). A boat with very little reserve buoyancy is a boat much closer to sinking and therefore it is more likely to orient keel down, all other things being equal. In general, it is a boat that has very high reserve buoyancy that one has to be more concerned about it being very stable floating upside down and having undesirable roll recovery moments and a poor angle of vanishing stability. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 3:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Light Steel Given that Kasten has repeatedly claimed that origami can not be used for decks, cabins, wheelhouses, keels, rudders and skegs,something anyone here can see being done in the photos section and the video, something we have been doing since the outset ( which Kasten has been told, long ago) he is definitely not a reliable source of truth or judgement, nor worth paying for judgement or advice. When asked if he would attend the metal; boat festival, he responded with "Not if Brent Swain might be there!"One problem I have seen with full length keels is the inaccessibility in the back of them for maintenance. One could use it for tankage, but that puts a lot of weigh in the stern, where you need it least.You could cap it, and leave it empty, and airtight. It still constitutes about 300 to 400 lbs of steel dead weight in the stern.It also constitutes lot of extra work.With steel being as strong as it is, it is easy to build a skeg and keel massively over strength, strong enough to not be any worry about strength.Long fin keels and skegs on well balanced hulls have proven themselves for decades,and steel well done eliminates the structural worries, so why go backwards. Unless, you think like Bob Perry has said "I fit doesn't break, its overbuilt."I guess that is why the Perry boat recently mentioned in Sail Magazine went thru 3 goose necks just getting past Cape Horn. One didn't even make it past Mexico. The guy was pumping for his life the whole way around, despite Moitessier having proved that totally unnecessary over a half century earlier, if one chooses a good steel boat. | 35165|35159|2018-06-02 18:46:00|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1622962365 #ygrps-yiv-1622962365ygrps-yiv-2010765089 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}In the tropics, I pained my hull white, to keep it cool . When I got back to BC, the cooler hull allowed the inside of lockers to get musty.So I painted the hull dark green, and in cold arctic outflows ,when it is usually sunny around here ,my dark hull felt warm to the touch when frozen in, in ice at minus 12 degrees C. The lockers dried out and the mustiness disappeared. Well insulated with spray foam, and a good woodstove also help, in fact are almost mandatory for comfort in these lattitudes. People who have gone from sheet foam to spray foam and wood stoves are amazed how much more comfortable their boats become.Going to the tropics , I put all my clothes, BC charts and books in plastic bags (Contractor clean up bags are far more heavy duty) with moth balls, eliminating any chance of them going moldy. When I get back, an hour or two out in the wind evaporates any smell.If I were concerned about mold behind paneling, I would drill one inch holes in the top of the paneling and drop moth balls in. If there was no smell, I would drop a few more in.I have heard that washing a surface with a borax and water mix, and letting it dry, eliminates the chance of it going moldy. If I were building again, I would do that with all hidden paneling and foam surfaces. Brent, How to you keep surface mould from growing in lockers (painted or otherwise)? And how do you get mould out of a boat, particularly lockers and other closed-in areas? Any chemical secrets or treatments you recommend ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers Back in the 70s, an Aussie friend used to work on old wooden fishboats. He said if he saw a bulkhead which was painted both sides,he could stand back and throw a screwdriver thru it.( rotten). If it was painted one side only ,and could breath, it was usually in good shape . Paint inside lockers is not a preservative , and may encourage rot, by sealing moisture in. My Sitka spruce mast has not had paint on it in nearly 30 years, and is as solid as the day I stepped her. The rain goes in, and the rain dries out in summer. Bare wood inside lockers is not a problem, and may be a liability. The only justification for painting there is to make it look pretty when you plan to sell the boat.The surveyor will then find only solid, rot free wood there. My boat is 34 years old , wood has never been painted inside lockers, and it is fine. Spend your time and money on things which actually matter.| 35166|35159|2018-06-02 18:49:08|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, 6 inch by 4 inch, quarter sawn air dried sitka spruce ,No glue lines,one piece. About 3- 1/4 inch knots in the whole mast Brent, Is your spruce mast solid? MartinDe : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 1 juin 2018 17:45:37 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers Back in the 70s, an Aussie friend used to work on old wooden fishboats. He said if he saw a bulkhead which was painted both sides,he could stand back and throw a screwdriver thru it.( rotten). If it was painted one side only ,and could breath, it was usually in good shape . Paint inside lockers is not a preservative , and may encourage rot, by sealing moisture in. My Sitka spruce mast has not had paint on it in nearly 30 years, and is as solid as the day I stepped her. The rain goes in, and the rain dries out in summer. Bare wood inside lockers is not a problem, and may be a liability. The only justification for painting there is to make it look pretty when you plan to sell the boat.The surveyor will then find only solid, rot free wood there. My boat is 34 years old , wood has never been painted inside lockers, and it is fine. 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ul li:x_last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 35167|35127|2018-06-03 03:44:21|opuspaul|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|A 33 foot boat that weighs 15,000 tons with 1/4 inch steel decks makes no sense. If it really is true, the builder (or designer) had no idea what he was doing. it will be top heavy and is probably a pig of a boat.| 35168|35159|2018-06-03 08:46:45|mountain man|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent, And how long is your spruce mast? Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 2 juin 2018 18:49:03 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Yes, 6 inch by 4 inch, quarter sawn air dried sitka spruce ,No glue lines,one piece. About 3- 1/4 inch knots in the whole mast Brent, Is your spruce mast solid? Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 1 juin 2018 17:45:37 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers Back in the 70s, an Aussie friend used to work on old wooden fishboats. He said if he saw a bulkhead which was painted both sides,he could stand back and throw a screwdriver thru it.( rotten). If it was painted one side only ,and could breath, it was usually in good shape . Paint inside lockers is not a preservative , and may encourage rot, by sealing moisture in. My Sitka spruce mast has not had paint on it in nearly 30 years, and is as solid as the day I stepped her. The rain goes in, and the rain dries out in summer. Bare wood inside lockers is not a problem, and may be a liability. The only justification for painting there is to make it look pretty when you plan to sell the boat.The surveyor will then find only solid, rot free wood there. My boat is 34 years old , wood has never been painted inside lockers, and it is fine. Spend your time and money on things which actually matter. | 35169|35127|2018-06-03 11:06:07|Brian Stannard|Re: 1/4" plate for hull and deck?|I assume you mean 15,000 lbs, not tons.Â The Westsail 32 weighs 19,500 lbs. Whether it is a pig or not is a matter of opinion. On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 12:44 AM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â A 33 foot boat that weighs 15,000 tons with 1/4 inch steel decks makes no sense.Â If it really is true, the builder (or designer) had no idea what he was doing. Â it will be top heavy and is probably a pig of a boat. -- CheersBrian | 35170|35159|2018-06-03 17:35:40|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :39 ft 6 inches.Perfect, when the boat was empty.I out sailed plenty of boats I was not supposed to stand a chance against.No more, since I accumulated 34 years of living board junk .Now, I could use an extra 4 feet of mast Brent, And how long is your spruce mast? 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past, which commonly carried 1,000 sq feet of working sail.They put the sail area of modern, much lighter boat on them. I heard of one guy who stepped a 49 ft mast on the deck of one, and outsailed many boats he was not supposed to outsail.Its not displacement alone which is important, but sail area to displacement ratio. The 36 ft Herreschoff Neria is in the same weight ,and sails just fine.This doesn't solve the double ender's habit of hobby horsing, tho.| 35172|35159|2018-06-03 18:07:44|Matt Malone|Brent's Sikta Spruce Mast| So it it 6x4 inch quarter sawn, 40 feet long. Did you buy it from a logger/sawmill or from a special mast place? How much does it weigh? How many spreaders? Please remind me, what is the length of the boat ? Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, June 3, 17:56 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 39 ft 6 inches.Perfect, when the boat was empty.I out sailed plenty of boats I was not supposed to stand a chance against.No more, since I accumulated 34 years of living board junk .Now, I could use an extra 4 feet of mast Brent, And how long is your spruce mast? Martin which actually matter. | 35173|35159|2018-06-04 15:53:29|mountain man|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent, I was sure you had a steel mast , on your boat ,like in your book Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 3 juin 2018 17:34:26 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 39 ft 6 inches.Perfect, when the boat was empty.I out sailed plenty of boats I was not supposed to stand a chance against.No more, since I accumulated 34 years of living board junk .Now, I could use an extra 4 feet of mast Brent, And how long is your spruce mast? Martin which actually matter. | 35174|35159|2018-06-04 17:53:21|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Sikta Spruce Mast|A friend working in a sawmil wanted a set of plans, and had no money.SoI told him "I'll trade you a set of plans for apiece of spruce.He walked in on day shift, and saw a 3 ft diameter spruce log about to be cut.He held up the sawyer for an hour ,turning and cutting to get two masts the same. He took all his lunch an coffee breaks alongside the masts, as if he walked away, someone would come by and cut them in half . by quitting time he had arranged a truck to take them to my parents place for storage .Luckily ,I was there that day. He paid $75 each for them Evan got one, I the other.A couple of weeks earlier, while hitchiking north, I got picked up by a logger, who said he had some beautiful, air dried standing, sitka spruce out of the Nimpkish valley.I got this number ,but he could only do 30 ft lengths. Luckily, I found 40 ft lengths, and didn't need those.Several friends on 36 footers went from steel masts to aluminium. The difference was minimal, to unnoticeable.Bob Perry once mentioned doing a carbon fibre mast, at great expense, for a 35 footer. After circumnavigating Vancouver Island , Perry asked him how much difference the much lighter mast made.The answer? Barely noticeable!| 35175|35159|2018-06-04 17:58:00|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|I thought steel was a bit heavy for a 31, but not for a 36.Maybe not .One 31 here has a steel mast(5 inch OD 11 gauge wall) and it works out fine.6X4 sitka spruce is 4.5 lbs per ft| 35176|35159|2018-06-04 19:28:14|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|Years ago I found an aluminum mastin a scrap yard and replaced our steel mast, thinking I'd get betterperformance with less weight aloft. We made a trip around the Pacificwith each mast and it turns out we couldn't tell any difference! Istill have the original steel mast and will use that on the new boat.| 35177|35159|2018-06-05 16:43:02|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|This is a quote from a friend who, after years of cruising the Pacific in a 36 ft single keel brentboat, sold his single keel 36, to build the twin keel version, for Alaska cruising.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Years ago I found an aluminum mastin a scrap yard and replaced our steel mast, thinking I'd get betterperformance with less weight aloft. We made a trip around the Pacificwith each mast and it turns out we couldn't tell any difference! Istill have the original steel mast and will use that on the new boat.| 35178|35159|2018-06-06 16:23:56|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|I stand corrected, The lady said they used clove oil in Hawaii, to stop mold. Just put it on a rag and wipe the surface with it.| 35179|35159|2018-06-06 18:41:36|Matt Malone|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Does clove oil smell of cloves? Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 18:18 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I stand corrected, The lady said they used clove oil in Hawaii, to stop mold. Just put it on a rag and wipe the surface with it. | 35180|35159|2018-06-07 22:54:11|mountain man|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent, Was your spruce mast tried and tested in storms and rough seas? De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 4 juin 2018 17:56:19 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers I thought steel was a bit heavy for a 31, but not for a 36.Maybe not .One 31 here has a steel mast(5 inch OD 11 gauge wall) and it works out fine. 6X4 sitka spruce is 4.5 lbs per ft | 35181|35159|2018-06-08 14:59:21|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|Yes, 34 years of mostly full time cruising , including ten trips to Haida Gwai, two to Tonga and back, and one to Mexico and back. Crossed Hecate Strait when it was blowing 50 knots and gusting, according to the lighthouses.No problems .Never had a single rigging failure. origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Was your spruce mast tried and tested in storms and rough seas?#ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ads {margin-bottom:10px;} 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#ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-205014765 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391 #ygrps-yiv-205014765ygrps-yiv-823593391x_ygrp-vital ul li:x_last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 35182|35159|2018-06-09 16:49:35|mountain man|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent, Regarding painting the mast, I always tought that epoxy, paint and varnish would protect a wooden mast against making small and big cracks when dryi ng Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de brentswain38@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 8 juin 2018 14:58:25 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers Yes, 34 years of mostly full time cruising , including ten trips to Haida Gwai, two to Tonga and back, and one to Mexico and back. Crossed Hecate Strait when it was blowing 50 knots and gusting, according to the lighthouses. No problems . Never had a single rigging failure. origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, Was your spruce mast tried and tested in storms and rough seas? | 35183|35159|2018-06-09 17:21:08|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|It was once believed that sealing balsa core in fibreglass would prevent any rot from entering.The result is, most balsa cored older boats having thoroughly rotted out cores.Theory and reality have way of turning out to be completely different things, something the armchair experts at drawing boards and computers, have trouble comprehending. You can never guarantee that epoxy will permanently keep water out, indefinitely . Once in, it cant get out thru epoxy. | 35184|35159|2018-06-10 17:11:10|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|Some friends have had zero rot, after decades, in an epoxy sealed mast.On others it has been a disaster,. You don't know which you will get.| 35185|35159|2018-06-10 21:39:58|a.sobriquet|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|I could speculate that tree trunks will unavoidably check as they dry. This will let water in, and if the mast is encapsulated, could result in rot. On the other hand, a hollow laminated mast will likely not check, and so if covered and sealed with fiberglass/epoxy, it probably will last for a long time with no rot.A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Some friends have had zero rot, after decades, in an epoxy sealed mast.On others it has been a disaster,. You don't know which you will get.| 35186|35159|2018-06-10 22:38:37|Matt Malone|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Depends on the climate too. Matt From: a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 21:40 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I could speculate that tree trunks will unavoidably check as they dry. This will let water in, and if the mast is encapsulated, could result in rot. On the other hand, a hollow laminated mast will likely not check, and so if covered and sealed with fiberglass/epoxy, it probably will last for a long time with no rot. A.S. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Some friends have had zero rot, after decades, in an epoxy sealed mast.On others it has been a disaster,. You don't know which you will get. | 35187|35159|2018-06-11 17:19:01|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|Tree trunks have heartwood, which shrinks far less than the outside, causing checking. Quarter sawn, with no heart wood, thus checks far less. Spruce checks far less than fir, or other woods.Mine was cut from the side of the log ,not the centre.One way of reducing checking on a grown , one tree mast, is to make a full length saw cut along one side, and let it open ,as the tree dries. When the tree has fully dried ,glue a spline in the check. This is also a good time to put wiring in the mast. You can put your sail track on the spline.Some have used such grown masts on my boats, but have made the common mistake of a full length taper, making the top quite spindly. On a Bermuda sloop, the taper should only start 70% above the deck.Water coming in thru bolt and screw holes can also feed rot. Bronze fastenings can help reduce this problem.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I could speculate that tree trunks will unavoidably check as they dry. This will let water in, and if the mast is encapsulated, could result in rot. On the other hand, a hollow laminated mast will likely not check, and so if covered and sealed with fiberglass/epoxy, it probably will last for a long time with no rot.A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Some friends have had zero rot, after decades, in an epoxy sealed mast.On others it has been a disaster,. You don't know which you will get.| 35188|35159|2018-06-11 18:11:33|Matt Malone|Re: Painting wood inside lockers| Brent has it right on quarter sawed wood. Heart wood is unpredictable. Next time you are in the lumber yard or Home Despot, take a look at the cut ends of boards. Count what fraction contain the center of the tree - nearly all of them right? The sawmills know it is of low quality but the trees are so small when they harvest them now, they are lucky to get two 2x4s out of each tree. This is why I asked Brent where he got the mast. A quarter sawed 4x6, 40 feet long is a rare. A sawmill with access to 40 foot logs greater than 2 feet in diameter at the small end is rare. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, June 11, 17:46 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Painting wood inside lockers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Tree trunks have heartwood, which shrinks far less than the outside, causing checking. Quarter sawn, with no heart wood, thus checks far less. Spruce checks far less than fir, or other woods. Mine was cut from the side of the log ,not the centre. One way of reducing checking on a grown , one tree mast, is to make a full length saw cut along one side, and let it open ,as the tree dries. When the tree has fully dried ,glue a spline in the check. This is also a good time to put wiring in the mast. You can put your sail track on the spline. Some have used such grown masts on my boats, but have made the common mistake of a full length taper, making the top quite spindly. On a Bermuda sloop, the taper should only start 70% above the deck. Water coming in thru bolt and screw holes can also feed rot. Bronze fastenings can help reduce this problem. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I could speculate that tree trunks will unavoidably check as they dry. This will let water in, and if the mast is encapsulated, could result in rot. On the other hand, a hollow laminated mast will likely not check, and so if covered and sealed with fiberglass/epoxy, it probably will last for a long time with no rot. A.S. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Some friends have had zero rot, after decades, in an epoxy sealed mast.On others it has been a disaster,. You don't know which you will get. | 35189|35159|2018-06-11 18:38:52|opuspaul|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|It is also very hard to find old growth wood. I got some old growth fir that was quarter sawn and about 20 rings per inch. It is beautiful stuff. It is very stable, hard and much much stronger than the 4 rings per inch crap you see in lumber yards today. You might find a specialty mill but the best timber I find lately is from demolitions. Unfortunately is is often full of nail holes. Having said that, I would rather have old growth with a few nail holes than new soft and punky lumber with only 3 or 4 grains per inch. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent has it right on quarter sawed wood. Heart wood is unpredictable. Next time you are in the lumber yard or Home Despot, take a look at the cut ends of boards. Count what fraction contain the center of the tree - nearly all of them right? The sawmills know it is of low quality but the trees are so small when they harvest them now, they are lucky to get two 2x4s out of each tree. This is why I asked Brent where he got the mast. A quarter sawed 4x6, 40 feet long is a rare. A sawmill with access to 40 foot logs greater than 2 feet in diameter at the small end is rare. Matt | 35190|35159|2018-06-13 16:20:54|brentswain38|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Does clove oil smell of cloves? Matt Yes , strong smell of cloves. You can dilute it with water, with a bit of liquid detergent in it.Maybe a drop, giving only the smell of cloves, is enough to stop mold.| 35191|35191|2018-06-14 13:58:33|SHANE ROTHWELL|: Propellers|Hi Guys This little 2.2 litre Isuzu came with a 21 x 17 prop but it's rather mangled & I'd have to trim off about 30 or more % of it. If we have the power I want access to it. What I need is a method of comparing 2 props as I am looking at what appears to be very similar in it's ""grip/traction/friction" on the water. This other prop is 18 x 19 My thinking is to multiply the dimemtions of each and compate the results. 21 x 17 = 357 18 x 19 = 342 which is 95.798% of 357. If my math & methodology is right, there is less than 5% differance which to my mond is good enuf. Ya? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/13/18,Â wrote: Subject: [origamiboats] Digest Number 5304 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, June 13, 2018, 7:03 PM Â Â Â Â Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachtsÂ Â GroupÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â MessageÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Digest #5304Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 1.1 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Re: PaintingÂ wood inside lockers Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â by Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â brentswain38Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â MessageÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 1.1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Re: PaintingÂ wood inside lockersÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Wed JunÂ 13,Â 2018 1:20Â pmÂ Â Â Â (PDT) Â Â Â Â . Posted by:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â brentswain38Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Â Does clove oil smell of cloves? Â Â Matt Â Yes , strong smell of cloves. You can dilute it with water, withÂ a bit of liquid detergent in it. Â Maybe a drop, giving only the smell of cloves, is enough to stop mold. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Reply to senderÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Reply to groupÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ReplyÂ via Web Post Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â All MessagesÂ Â Â Â Â (27) Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Top ^ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â To Post a message, send it to:Â Â origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Visit Your Group Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â New Members Â Â Â Â 3 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â â€¢ Privacy â€¢ Unsubscribe â€¢ Terms of Use Â Â | 35192|35191|2018-06-14 15:43:22|Darren Bos|Re: : Propellers| It's not like that.Â The power absorbed by the prop is much more strongly affected by diameter than it is by pitch.Â Very rough rules of thumb are something like an inch of diameter is equal to 2.5 inches pitch.Â The number of blades also affects the amount of power the prop can transmit to the water before the blade loading starts to get too high.Â If you want a detailed way to figure things out, Dave Gerr has a great book on props, otherwise an online calculator is probably the way to go. I wouldn't cut away 30% of the prop.Â A prop place can often do repairs and props that look surprisingly bad. Darren On 18-06-14 10:58 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Hi Guys This little 2.2 litre Isuzu came with a 21 x 17 prop but it's rather mangled & I'd have to trim off about 30 or more % of it. If we have the power I want access to it. What I need is a method of comparing 2 props as I am looking at what appears to be very similar in it's ""grip/traction/friction" on the water. This other prop is 18 x 19 My thinking is to multiply the dimemtions of each and compate the results. 21 x 17 = 357 18 x 19 = 342 which is 95.798% of 357. If my math & methodology is right, there is less than 5% differance which to my mond is good enuf. Ya? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/13/18,Â wrote: Subject: [origamiboats] Digest Number 5304 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, June 13, 2018, 7:03 PM Â Â Â Â Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachtsÂ Â GroupÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â MessageÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Digest #5304Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 1.1 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Re: PaintingÂ wood inside lockers Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â by Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â brentswain38Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â MessageÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 1.1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Re: PaintingÂ wood inside lockersÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Wed JunÂ 13,Â 2018 1:20Â pmÂ Â Â Â (PDT) Â Â Â Â . Posted by:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â brentswain38Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Â Does clove oil smell of cloves? Â Â Matt Â Yes , strong smell of cloves. You can dilute it with water, withÂ a bit of liquid detergent in it. Â Maybe a drop, giving only the smell of cloves, is enough to stop mold. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Reply to senderÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Reply to groupÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ReplyÂ via Web Post Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â All MessagesÂ Â Â Â Â (27) Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Top ^ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â To Post a message, send it to:Â Â origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Visit Your Group Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â New Members Â Â Â Â 3 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â â€¢ Privacy â€¢ Unsubscribe â€¢ Terms of Use Â Â | 35193|35191|2018-06-14 17:31:40|brentswain38|Re: : Propellers|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :My book gives a simple way to calculate pitch, and balance. Simple math. A prop can be pitched up or down up to 4 inches, before you risk breaking the blade off. Any more than 2 inches and you should warm the blade with a torch. For cutting down, I'd make a pattern and trace it with an awl on each blade, being careful to get it in the same position on all blades.Balance it on your finger and tap it. If you hear a clear ring ,it doesn't have an electrolysis problem. A dull thunk means you do.Less than perfect balance means quicker wear on your stern bearing. If that doesn't happen, you got her right.One shop I once worked in had a prop shop. Noting mysterious about it, just mechanical common sense.It's not like that. The power absorbed by the prop is much more strongly affected by diameter than it is by pitch. Very rough rules of thumb are something like an inch of diameter is equal to 2.5 inches pitch. The number of blades also affects the amount of power the prop can transmit to the water before the blade loading starts to get too high. If you want a detailed way to figure things out, Dave Gerr has a great book on props, otherwise an online calculator is probably the way to go.I wouldn't cut away 30% of the prop. A prop place can often do repairs and props that look surprisingly bad.Darren On 18-06-14 10:58 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Hi Guys This little 2.2 litre Isuzu came with a 21 x 17 prop but it's rather mangled & I'd have to trim off about 30 or more % of it. If we have the power I want access to it. What I need is a method of comparing 2 props as I am looking at what appears to be very similar in it's ""grip/traction/friction" on the water. This other prop is 18 x 19 My thinking is to multiply the dimemtions of each and compate the results. 21 x 17 = 357 18 x 19 = 342 which is 95.798% of 357. If my math & methodology is right, there is less than 5% differance which to my mond is good enuf. Ya? | 35194|35191|2018-06-15 10:26:25|rockrothwell|Re: : Propellers|Exellent. Many thanks. Must admit I am rather lÃ¨ery of taking it to a prop shop. Last choice only as I have an inborn revulsion for premadonna's & bullshit Any one got a 21 x 17 for a 1.25" shaft for sale? Cuz if I can't repair will be looking for a replacement| 35195|35191|2018-06-16 18:01:25|brentswain38|Re: : Propellers|The more you do for yourself, the less a prop shop can justify billing you for.and the fewer "trial and error" expenses involved.| 35196|35159|2018-06-17 13:53:22|aguysailing|Re: Painting wood inside lockers|Straight white vinegar worked for me .. spray it on.Google up cloves for mold... seems to be a "wives tale" as some have said. Not my opinion because I have not tried it. As an oil ... I would like the idea as it clove oil would last and if, as has been said here will discourage further mold...great.| 35197|35197|2018-06-21 12:02:26|aguysailing|Heat insulation|I am replacing a gear shifter cable which melted and seized because it rested against several wraps of foil backed insulation material covering the dry exhaust pipe. I thought of wrapping with aluminum foil where it rests against this pipe. (There is no other way to route this cable...it must rest against the covered pipe). Just wondering if anyone knows of some kind of insulating hose that I could fit over the gear shifter cable to prevent this happening againthanks...| 35198|35197|2018-06-21 13:11:11|Matt Malone|Re: Heat insulation| The solution to high temperatures outside the source is to insulate the source and improve the heat loss for the thing you want to protect. So a thin puck of compressed glass fibre insulation between them, and then a circular heat sink to stand off the cable and allow airflow around it. http://www.qualitekengineers.com/index_files/pro9/vlb_images1/rlsh15.jpg Feed the cable through the heatsink, or, cut the heatsink in half and wire it back together. If only 3 or 4 of the fins are in contact with the fibreglass puck, the cable will be far closer to the temperature of the other fins. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 12:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Heat insulation I am replacing a gear shifter cable which melted and seized because it rested against several wraps of foil backed insulation material covering the dry exhaust pipe. I thought of wrapping with aluminum foil where it rests against this pipe. (There is no other way to route this cable...it must rest against the covered pipe). Just wondering if anyone knows of some kind of insulating hose that I could fit over the gear shifter cable to prevent this happening again thanks... | 35199|35197|2018-06-21 14:04:44|aguysailing|Re: Heat insulation|Thanks Matt.... Good idea but not available to me ... so looks like several wrappings of aluminum foil for now.| 35200|35197|2018-06-21 15:18:50|Matt Malone|Re: Heat insulation| If you could throw even a layer of dry sheet structural fibreglass cloth under the aluminium foil, it would really help. Aluminium is actually a good conductor, it is only the crinkling and lack of contact that helps. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 2:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Heat insulation Thanks Matt.... Good idea but not available to me ... so looks like several wrappings of aluminum foil for now. | 35201|35197|2018-06-21 17:13:34|don bourgeois|Re: Heat insulation| Go down to the car wrecker and get the aluminum foil type insulation (they come in sandwiched varieties) which cars use between the exhaust pipe and the car body. Should be cheap or free. Premium brands (BMW etc) use better materials for this. Don B. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 2:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Heat insulation If you could throw even a layer of dry sheet structural fibreglass cloth under the aluminium foil, it would really help. Aluminium is actually a good conductor, it is only the crinkling and lack of contact that helps. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] < origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 2:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Heat insulation Thanks Matt.... Good idea but not available to me ... so looks like several wrappings of aluminum foil for now. | 35202|35197|2018-06-24 14:55:15|Zoa Scott|Re: Heat insulation|I am a heavy duty mechanicÂ There is hose used for things like compressor discharge and turbo oil lines that has a heavy flex steel outer casing .Running shift cable through a section of that hose might be a cheap solutioÂ ZoaÂ On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 11:04 AM aguysailing@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â Thanks Matt....Â Â Good idea but not available to me ... so looks like several wrappings of aluminum foil for now. | 35203|35197|2018-06-24 15:01:50|brentswain38|Re: Heat insulation|My dry exhaust is insulated with fibreglass house insulation , covered with foam, then wrapped with 3 inch muffler tape, covered with silicone. It doesn't even get warm, in days of motoring in the tropics.| 35204|35197|2018-06-25 08:33:12|rockrothwell|Re: Heat insulation|How about rockwool insulation... Does not burn.| 35205|35197|2018-06-25 16:36:57|brentswain38|Re: Heat insulation|Rockwool works fine.| 35206|35197|2018-06-26 18:31:15|aguysailing|Re: Heat insulation|How do you contain rockwool to use it? On my my exhaust pipe, I have some kind of wrapping that had foil on one side and some kind of fibreglass insulation on the other. Problem is after 3 years the fibreglass parts are dissolving if you rub against them and creates little pieces of very itchy bits.... very hard to get out of clothing. I want to take it all out and try something else. I can see Brent's because he is at anchor nearby but sounds like a big effort with insulation and foam etc... Rockwool sounds good because apparently it is slag spun into a wool like sustance... just how would one use it. .. thanks| 35207|35197|2018-06-26 20:15:26|brentswain38|Re: Heat insulation|I wrap any such fibreglass with foil, then 3 inch wide muffler tape. That, I cover with cheap silicone calking, which should stop any fibres from coming thru,if well covered.| 35208|35043|2018-06-28 19:26:10|brentswain38|36 single keeler for sale|Bill Lornie's 36 ft single keel brentboat "Coracle" is for sale. She is in good shape, except for a bit of corrosion around the cockpit. You can phone him at 250-285-3519. She is on Quadra Island BC.| 35209|35197|2018-06-29 17:21:19|Matt Malone|Local BC Story| Brent, I know that you are mainly on the other side of Vancouver Island as are many other origamis, but... Does anyone have any insight here ? https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/deaths-of-two-in-bc-sailors-was-homicide/ar-AAzlF4z Deaths of two in B.C. sailors was homicide www.msn.com Investigators on Vancouver Island are treating the deaths of two sailors reported missing last month as homicides. Matt | 35210|35197|2018-07-03 15:02:02|brentswain38|Re: Local BC Story|A guy, who said he knew them well, told me their backpacks often looked like they were full of square ,solid lumps. Draw you own conclusions.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Brent, I know that you are mainly on the other side of Vancouver Island as are many other origamis, but... Does anyone have any insight here ? https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/deaths-of-two-in-bc-sailors-was-homicide/ar-AAzlF4z Deaths of two in B.C. sailors was homicide www.msn.com Investigators on Vancouver Island are treating the deaths of two sailors reported missing last month as homicides. Matt | 35211|35211|2018-07-21 18:20:28|brentswain38|Interior salvage|I just found some beautifully made oak drawers and doors, in a burn pile. They looked just made, and the fronts were solid oak, with 7 ply 3/8th inch sides. Pointed them others, who couldn't be bothered saving them so I picked them up and installed one today. No point in building what is already built, and going to waste Habitat for humanity has all kinds of ready made drawers and doors very cheap,often less than the cost of materials. Worth slightly changing ones interior plans to accommodate them.If you get restaurant parts, you can get the same things in all stainless, for scrap prices. Gets you beautiful interior with a fraction the cost ,and much more quickly.| 35212|35211|2018-07-21 19:13:10|opuspaul|Re: Interior salvage|I used red oak for the interior of my boat. I looked really nice, wasn't too dark and was relatively cheap at the time. 25 years later, I really wish I never used it. It is all black and stained. You can try using wood bleach on it but the effect is temporary, it just goes black again, even when you think you have it all sealed. White oak is an awesome wood but red oak has the wrong kind of grain for use on boats.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6t2AZubF8U&---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I just found some beautifully made oak drawers and doors, in a burn pile. They looked just made, and the fronts were solid oak, with 7 ply 3/8th inch sides. Pointed them others, who couldn't be bothered saving them so I picked them up and installed one today. No point in building what is already built, and going to waste Habitat for humanity has all kinds of ready made drawers and doors very cheap,often less than the cost of materials. Worth slightly changing ones interior plans to accommodate them.If you get restaurant parts, you can get the same things in all stainless, for scrap prices. Gets you beautiful interior with a fraction the cost ,and much more quickly.| 35213|35211|2018-07-21 19:47:49|Matt Malone|Re: Interior salvage| Red oak has straws between the grain fibres. One can (slowly) suck water through a foot-long stick. It should plasticize well. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 19:13 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interior salvage To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I used red oak for the interior of my boat. I looked really nice, wasn't too dark and was relatively cheap at the time. 25 years later, I really wish I never used it. It is all black and stained. You can try using wood bleach on it but the effect is temporary, it just goes black again, even when you think you have it all sealed. White oak is an awesome wood but red oak has the wrong kind of grain for use on boats. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6t2AZubF8U& ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I just found some beautifully made oak drawers and doors, in a burn pile. They looked just made, and the fronts were solid oak, with 7 ply 3/8th inch sides. Pointed them others, who couldn't be bothered saving them so I picked them up and installed one today. No point in building what is already built, and going to waste Habitat for humanity has all kinds of ready made drawers and doors very cheap,often less than the cost of materials. Worth slightly changing ones interior plans to accommodate them.If you get restaurant parts, you can get the same things in all stainless, for scrap prices. Gets you beautiful interior with a fraction the cost ,and much more quickly. | 35214|35211|2018-07-23 17:07:42|brentswain38|Re: Interior salvage|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have used some on my boat which has kept well.Must have got it completely sealed. A friend, who used it on a floor, saw it turn black the whole way thru. Mine is on drawers, which don't get walked on. No way of sealing it on something which takes a lot of wear.It should soak up epoxy sealer well. Red oak has straws between the grain fibres. One can (slowly) suck water through a foot-long stick. It should plasticize well. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 19:13 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interior salvage To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I used red oak for the interior of my boat. I looked really nice, wasn't too dark and was relatively cheap at the time. 25 years later, I really wish I never used it. It is all black and stained. You can try using wood bleach on it but the effect is temporary, it just goes black again, even when you think you have it all sealed. White oak is an awesome wood but red oak has the wrong kind of grain for use on boats. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6t2AZubF8U& ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I just found some beautifully made oak drawers and doors, in a burn pile. They looked just made, and the fronts were solid oak, with 7 ply 3/8th inch sides. Pointed them others, who couldn't be bothered saving them so I picked them up and installed one today. No point in building what is already built, and going to waste Habitat for humanity has all kinds of ready made drawers and doors very cheap,often less than the cost of materials. Worth slightly changing ones interior plans to accommodate them.If you get restaurant parts, you can get the same things in all stainless, for scrap prices. Gets you beautiful interior with a fraction the cost ,and much more quickly. | 35215|35211|2018-07-24 16:28:54|brentswain38|Re: Interior salvage|I heard an interesting item on CBC radio a while back, about how much trouble people were having getting rid of old stand up pianos. Appearantly they get so old, they become increasingly impossible to tune anymore, and no one wants them.Older ones have some solid ,extremely beautiful, tropical hard woods to salvage, and some even have ivory and ebony keys, if one can think of a place to use them. I think an ad requesting them .would bring lots of interest. No point in telling them what you intend to use them for. What you don't use makes good firewood.| 35216|35211|2018-07-24 16:38:47|Alan Boucher|Re: Interior salvage|Good Idea, Good wood.Â Heavy!Â A tenant left a baby grand in one of my apartments.Â It was distressed beyond easy reclaim of the wood.Â I had to pay to get it out of there.Â Luckily the tenant's employer was involved and picked up the tab.Â BesidesÂ the wood and the ivory, the steel frames make good garden sculpture.Â That in itself could be a good salable item. On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:28 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I heard anÂ interestingÂ item on CBC radio a while back, about how much trouble people were having getting rid of old stand up pianos. Appearantly they get so old, they become increasingly impossible to tune anymore, and no one wants them.Older ones have some solid ,extremely beautiful, tropicalÂ hard woods to salvage, and some even have ivory and ebonyÂ keys, if one can think ofÂ a place toÂ use them. I think an ad requesting them .would bring lots of interest. No point in telling them what you intend to use them for. What you don't use makes good firewood. -- Al Boucher | 35217|34922|2018-08-02 17:21:43|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|Hey ya'll, I decided to keep my boat, Star Route, and finish it. I've been having friends help often, and I've found that if I weld for less than 2 hours a day and don't run the grinder or cutting wheels, I don't have much of a problem. This has added up to getting quite a but done. Most of the grinding is complete anyway. I'll finish this afterall, Marlin| 35218|34922|2018-08-02 21:48:09|Matt Malone|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale| #ygrps-yiv-2118601695 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I am very happy to hear that Marlin, all the best. Doug seems to have been very successful in getting people to help, that might lighten the load a bit for you too. http://www.svseeker.com/wp/ You might consider a Patreon or something where, instead of asking for money, you ask for donations of time. Some people will throw a few bucks at you instead, but that is OK. For Patreon, you just have to make the people who might decide to help feel they get some satisfaction from it, and it could be as simple as entertainment. You might also find people who want to practice by helping you before deciding to do an origami themselves. An afternoon of boat work on someone else's boat is way less commitment than buying all the steel and starting their own project from scratch. I am sure they would appreciate the learning opportunity. Now that your boat is more complete-looking, it might be very satisfying for people to help and look to see how it went together. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of musicasrevolution@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2018 5:14 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale Hey ya'll, I decided to keep my boat, Star Route, and finish it. I've been having friends help often, and I've found that if I weld for less than 2 hours a day and don't run the grinder or cutting wheels, I don't have much of a problem. This has added up to getting quite a but done. Most of the grinding is complete anyway. I'll finish this afterall, Marlin | 35219|34922|2018-08-03 14:45:15|brentswain38|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|Good choice.! I have seen boat projects , which haven't been touched for years at a time, eventually get finished. You are young enough to have the time. Take your time, and enjoy the project, at any pace you enjoy. Time also gives you more time to scrounge mast, sails, rigging, engine, and other materials. The more time you have, the cheaper they will be.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hey ya'll, I decided to keep my boat, Star Route, and finish it. I've been having friends help often, and I've found that if I weld for less than 2 hours a day and don't run the grinder or cutting wheels, I don't have much of a problem. This has added up to getting quite a but done. Most of the grinding is complete anyway. I'll finish this afterall, Marlin| 35220|34922|2018-08-04 16:09:12|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Star Route BS 31 For Sale|If anyone here uses Instagram, you can follow my progress at @starroutesail| 35221|34922|2018-08-08 12:21:53|Matt Malone|Solar Sale| #ygrps-yiv-957787980 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I have posted before when ML Solar has had a fire sale price for panels: SANYO 195 Watt Used Solar Panel Special... ONLY US$40 each! Was the subject line. 68 V Open circuit, 55.3V maximum power point, 3.53A maximum power point, from a photo of the tag on the back, however, the ad misprinted the isc as 2.73A instead of 3.73A as it says on the back. These are used panels ! They are selling them in skids only, a skid is 20 panels. Their contact information is: 408-583-8101, www.mlsolar.com, sales@... ML Solar Online Solar Panel Store | Jeff Long If you need solar panel supplies, Jeff Long can help! Visit our site or contact us today for all of your solar panel related needs. www.mlsolar.com Ok, my commentary: These panels are well matched for a "48V" solar system, though modern (expensive) MPPT charge controllers may be able to take them without incurring a large efficiency penalty. I have seen cheap controllers that claim to be MPPT, but they have simply been pre-made to take 17V panels and charge 12V batteries -- they have no smarts in them at all, they do not track the actual voltage. You need a good MPPT, or a "48V" system to use these panels. 48V systems are not uncommon. For instance the telephone system runs on 48V DC in most places. These panels would not be my first choice for a boat, both for the reason of the voltage, and also, new panels of exactly the same physical size are rated at 350W+ -- that is 70% more power for the same area of panel. With boat space at a premium (unless I had some giant cat), I would pay a lot more for higher power density panels. These panels would be very interesting for a back-woods installation. Buy way more than you need, for less than higher power density panels, and they cover a larger fraction of the acreage -- who cares -- and you have oodles of power, and redundancy. If these panels are like the ones I got, they were in service in a large solar farm, and then put on skids for resale. Mine had grime and algae on them -- they needed to be washed -- dish detergent and a gentle scrub -- no big deal. I had mine shipped to a UPS depot in the US, and crossed them myself. I just paid HST on the way back. No brokerage fees required. UPS shipping costs for a skid to a UPS depot with a loading dock are not bad. I bought 32 used panels from MLSOLAR. The bottom 4 were smashed both because the pallet they were on was poor, but also poorly handled. UPS stuck a second pallet under the stack and wrapped over the MLSOLAR shipping labels with more plastic wrap to try to hide what had happened, and tried to pretend that there was no problem in shipment. I took photos, both at the UPS depot and later. I had bought shipping insurance, so, I contacted MLSOLAR and I got a refund on those. For fun I measured the power output of the smashed panels. Smashed, they still produced 15-30W at odd voltages. Then I leaned them up against a tree, MLSOLAR never asked for these 4 panels back. When I went to test the remaining 28 (weeks later, after the refund for the 4 smashed ones was processed), I discovered one panel, one of the wires was pulled out of the back and "trash" was hand written in marker on the back. My impression was, some solar farm field worker spent the entire day in the hot sun trying to find the problem, and when he found it, he yanked one wire out to make sure it would never get reattached again and wrote trash on it. So, I paid for 28, got 27. They were used panels, and at $40, you cannot be picky. Buy shipping insurance, get used to the idea that there may be a defective panel. As for power output, watch "Better Call Saul" and look at the scenes where they show the New Mexico sky -- it is a very dark blue, in full sun. That is because the total humidity between the ground and the sun is very low -- more humidity leads to more scattering of sunlight and a lighter hue to the clear sky. You just do not see that kind of sky in Canada. It is even worse in Florida -- the sky looks a very light blue even on a completely cloudless day. Flying in, on a completely cloudless day, you sometimes cannot see the ground clearly because it is so hazy and sunlight is scattering back up at you from the *air* below. In contrast, flying across the American southwest, the air is so clear, you can make out minuscule details on the ground from cruising altitude. The reality is, panel specs are given for sky and sun conditions that would be more like the New Mexico desert in summer. Everywhere else a panel produces less power than the specs. Get used to that idea before buying any panels to use anywhere. In Canada, in March (perihelion, maximum sun intensity), on a reasonably cloudless day, I was measuring more than 100W output from used "150W" panels using a variable resistor bank to find find the maximum power point. Brand new Canadian Tire panels, I was getting about 70% of their rating. On reasonably sunny days, with panels oriented directly to the sun, in the middle half of the day (not the first and last quarter), one might be able to bet on 50% of ratings, though on good days one might hope for more. *Your mileage will vary* Reorienting panels is expensive. If you do not reorient, if you just lean for the season, you will get less power out of the panel in each day. Solution: Buy more panels. At these prices, the panel is the cheapest piece of the system. Even buying pressure-treated 2x4s and posts and bolts and washers to make the racks to hold them is going to be a reasonably fraction of the panel cost before considering power cables, the MPPT good to 70+V, batteries, a wacking big inverter, and an isolating transfer switch to meet code for interconnection with the grid power in the house.... etc etc. So do not take 195W and multiply by 20 and think all your power needs are met. On the best day of the year, you will get a fraction of that. Do not take USD$40 times 20 and think that is the system cost either, it is the tip of the iceberg. But at US$40 each, and likely 2,000W of actual delivered power from a skid, how can you resist if you were ever considering solar ? Even buying a cheap ebay MPPT, unless it catches fire from wasted power, it still has to deliver at least 1,000W. Matt | 35222|35222|2018-08-10 11:22:43|gerard.laverty|Shaft seal|I have a friend who is cruising in Alaska. The dripless shaft seal has an oil line to it, (the boat is a french aluminum ketch), the oil has turned a milkey colour. Water in the oil? Is this a big problem or can he continue to use the engine without doing serious damage to the shaft?Gerard.| 35223|35222|2018-08-11 05:31:03|brentswain38|Re: Shaft seal|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Oil and water mixed naturally turns a milky colour. You can see that with water soluable machine oil, used for machining. Don't worry about it, it will give you no problems. Water and the oil will naturally try to mix ,unavoidably. I have a friend who is cruising in Alaska. The dripless shaft seal has an oil line to it, (the boat is a french aluminum ketch), the oil has turned a milkey colour. Water in the oil? Is this a big problem or can he continue to use the engine without doing serious damage to the shaft?Gerard.| 35224|35222|2018-08-11 07:39:02|Matt Malone|Re: Shaft seal| It is water in the oil. Every petroleum product turns milky looking when it gets water in it, even wheel bearing grease. Everything depends on whether the seal has its own oil system and pump or whether the oil comes from the engine and returns to the engine. If it were fresh water, I would be far less concerned. Engines contain water coolant and produce water in combustion. There will be traces of water. But if salt water gets in the lubricant for an engine, and there is heat, like in an engine, particularly with a turbo with engine oil lubrication and cooling of the center bearing, the water can slowly evaporate from the crankcase leaving via the crankcase ventilation port, leading to a higher and higher salt content left behind. Metals that are stainless versus a certain salt concentration may not be stainless verses a higher salt concentration at elevated temperatures. If this oil only serves the shaft seal, and has its own reservoir and pump, that is different. A trace of water is probably unavoidable. More than your typical trace of water may be unavoidable for this particular seal or it may be old and in need of maintenance. I would be inclined to look for a long term solution. An oil-free graphite seal like the Dripless (trade name) seals provide no route for salt to enter the engine. They also eliminate the seal lubrication system, if it is separate. My apologies if it is obvious these lubrication systems will always be separate or are separate on this particular French aluminium ketch. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, August 11, 05:31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shaft seal To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Oil and water mixed naturally turns a milky colour. You can see that with water soluable machine oil, used for machining. Don't worry about it, it will give you no problems. Water and the oil will naturally try to mix ,unavoidably. I have a friend who is cruising in Alaska. The dripless shaft seal has an oil line to it, (the boat is a french aluminum ketch), the oil has turned a milkey colour. Water in the oil? Is this a big problem or can he continue to use the engine without doing serious damage to the shaft? Gerard. | 35225|35222|2018-08-12 10:57:04|Aaron|Re: Shaft seal|It would help to know the brand name of his dripless seal. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 9:40 PM, gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] wrote: I have a friend who is cruising in Alaska. The dripless shaft seal has an oil line to it, (the boat is a french aluminum ketch), the oil has turned a milkey colour. Water in the oil? 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#ygrps-yiv-888601882yiv1029008800ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-888601882 | 35226|35222|2018-08-12 12:26:24|gerard.laverty|Re: Shaft seal|He's out of communication range right now and I don't know the make. I've posted a few pictures of the part and one of the boat. It's a bilge keel design by Joubert for a trip he did through the NW passage a few years ago. It has twin 110 Mann diesels so it should not be too much of an issue. Thanks for the advice and any other thoughts would be appreciated. I think the oil supply is independent of the engine, that's what one photo shows, and I suspect the water is salt water.Gerard.| 35227|35222|2018-08-12 12:51:02|gerard.laverty|Re: Shaft seal|Looking at the Joubert-Nivelt website this boat is the Marguerite. I spent two weeks cruising up the coast of Alaska this past July on it.Gerard.| 35228|35222|2018-08-13 09:03:06|Matt Malone|Re: Shaft seal| #ygrps-yiv-379234506 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Gerard, I see the photos on the group now. The shaft is misaligned right at the seal, with a universal joint. I would avoid this in building whenever possible because this is a simple universal joint which induces vibration owing to variations in angular speed as the shafts go through a rotation. If it could be replaced with constant velocity (CV) joint, that would be better. This would reduce the torque variation on the engine and likely the vibration on the seal. It might seal better. 2 weeks on the Alaska coast sounds like a wonderful trip. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 12:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal Looking at the Joubert-Nivelt website this boat is the Marguerite. I spent two weeks cruising up the coast of Alaska this past July on it. Gerard. | 35229|35222|2018-08-15 19:02:34|brentswain38|Re: Shaft seal|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1277659115 #ygrps-yiv-1277659115ygrps-yiv-340841923 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I used a U joint on my last engine ,but it was extremely well lined up before the U joint went in. Worked well for over 10 years. Gerard, I see the photos on the group now. The shaft is misaligned right at the seal, with a universal joint. I would avoid this in building whenever possible because this is a simple universal joint which induces vibration owing to variations in angular speed as the shafts go through a rotation. If it could be replaced with constant velocity (CV) joint, that would be better. This would reduce the torque variation on the engine and likely the vibration on the seal. It might seal better. 2 weeks on the Alaska coast sounds like a wonderful trip. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 12:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal Looking at the Joubert-Nivelt website this boat is the Marguerite. I spent two weeks cruising up the coast of Alaska this past July on it.Gerard.| 35230|35222|2018-08-15 19:36:45|Matt Malone|Re: Shaft seal| It is true, regular universal joints are quite good in a lot of applications. When they are perfectly aligned they are perfectly linear and constant velocity. Since vibrational distances are a small fraction of an inch, vibrations in a well-aligned linkage do not change the geometry enough to really affect linearity, so a regular universal joint can be an excellent choice in a driveline without going to more complex constant velocity joints. If there is a misalignment, but the engine and final shafts are parallel, two properly aligned universal joints with a short diagonal shaft between them, because of the equal angle, can be a constant velocity driveline. The short shaft between them will undergo rhythmic acceleration and deceleration as the engine and prop turn at constant velocity. If the intermediate shaft is light, it probably will not cause too much vibration. In the photos there is an angle visible at the universal joint. If there were no issues with the seal, I would not mention the misalignment and the possibility of changing to a CV joint to reduce shaft vibration. Even with a kink in the driveline, in a robust system, universal joints can be serviceable. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 19:02 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I used a U joint on my last engine ,but it was extremely well lined up before the U joint went in. Worked well for over 10 years. Gerard, I see the photos on the group now. The shaft is misaligned right at the seal, with a universal joint. I would avoid this in building whenever possible because this is a simple universal joint which induces vibration owing to variations in angular speed as the shafts go through a rotation. If it could be replaced with constant velocity (CV) joint, that would be better. This would reduce the torque variation on the engine and likely the vibration on the seal. It might seal better. 2 weeks on the Alaska coast sounds like a wonderful trip. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 12:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal Looking at the Joubert-Nivelt website this boat is the Marguerite. I spent two weeks cruising up the coast of Alaska this past July on it. Gerard. | 35231|35222|2018-08-16 18:01:18|brentswain38|Re: Shaft seal|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A couple of u joints in a shaft on a wooden boat can be a bad idea.I was told of one such arrangement on a wooden boat, on which one U joint broke, and made a flail out of the short connecting shaft, which smacked a hole in the hull. It is true, regular universal joints are quite good in a lot of applications. When they are perfectly aligned they are perfectly linear and constant velocity. Since vibrational distances are a small fraction of an inch, vibrations in a well-aligned linkage do not change the geometry enough to really affect linearity, so a regular universal joint can be an excellent choice in a driveline without going to more complex constant velocity joints. If there is a misalignment, but the engine and final shafts are parallel, two properly aligned universal joints with a short diagonal shaft between them, because of the equal angle, can be a constant velocity driveline. The short shaft between them will undergo rhythmic acceleration and deceleration as the engine and prop turn at constant velocity. If the intermediate shaft is light, it probably will not cause too much vibration. In the photos there is an angle visible at the universal joint. If there were no issues with the seal, I would not mention the misalignment and the possibility of changing to a CV joint to reduce shaft vibration. Even with a kink in the driveline, in a robust system, universal joints can be serviceable. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 19:02 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I used a U joint on my last engine ,but it was extremely well lined up before the U joint went in. Worked well for over 10 years. Gerard, I see the photos on the group now. The shaft is misaligned right at the seal, with a universal joint. I would avoid this in building whenever possible because this is a simple universal joint which induces vibration owing to variations in angular speed as the shafts go through a rotation. If it could be replaced with constant velocity (CV) joint, that would be better. This would reduce the torque variation on the engine and likely the vibration on the seal. It might seal better. 2 weeks on the Alaska coast sounds like a wonderful trip. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 12:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal Looking at the Joubert-Nivelt website this boat is the Marguerite. I spent two weeks cruising up the coast of Alaska this past July on it. Gerard. | 35232|35222|2018-08-16 18:11:35|Matt Malone|Re: Shaft seal| #ygrps-yiv-1351244140 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Brent, absolutely correct. Come to think of it, I have seen it happen, not on a boat. But what a mess it would make on a boat. You are right. On a steel boat it could catch like a breaker bar against the hull and liquorice drive components quite badly as the engine came to a halt in a fraction of a turn. How does one account for engine vibration that is not pivoting the engine around the U-joint ? For instance, side to side or up and down vibration would lead to slight misalignment, and in a single U-joint system, that motion is transmitted through the U-joint. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 6:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : A couple of u joints in a shaft on a wooden boat can be a bad idea.I was told of one such arrangement on a wooden boat, on which one U joint broke, and made a flail out of the short connecting shaft, which smacked a hole in the hull. It is true, regular universal joints are quite good in a lot of applications. When they are perfectly aligned they are perfectly linear and constant velocity. Since vibrational distances are a small fraction of an inch, vibrations in a well-aligned linkage do not change the geometry enough to really affect linearity, so a regular universal joint can be an excellent choice in a driveline without going to more complex constant velocity joints. If there is a misalignment, but the engine and final shafts are parallel, two properly aligned universal joints with a short diagonal shaft between them, because of the equal angle, can be a constant velocity driveline. The short shaft between them will undergo rhythmic acceleration and deceleration as the engine and prop turn at constant velocity. If the intermediate shaft is light, it probably will not cause too much vibration. In the photos there is an angle visible at the universal joint. If there were no issues with the seal, I would not mention the misalignment and the possibility of changing to a CV joint to reduce shaft vibration. Even with a kink in the driveline, in a robust system, universal joints can be serviceable. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 19:02 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I used a U joint on my last engine ,but it was extremely well lined up before the U joint went in. Worked well for over 10 years. Gerard, I see the photos on the group now. The shaft is misaligned right at the seal, with a universal joint. I would avoid this in building whenever possible because this is a simple universal joint which induces vibration owing to variations in angular speed as the shafts go through a rotation. If it could be replaced with constant velocity (CV) joint, that would be better. This would reduce the torque variation on the engine and likely the vibration on the seal. It might seal better. 2 weeks on the Alaska coast sounds like a wonderful trip. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of gerard.laverty@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 12:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft seal Looking at the Joubert-Nivelt website this boat is the Marguerite. I spent two weeks cruising up the coast of Alaska this past July on it. Gerard. | 35233|35222|2018-08-17 18:11:41|brentswain38|Re: Shaft seal|I have always used solid mounts, minimizing such movement. I used single U joint. I never liked rubber soft mounts, for that reason. A plastic Spencer 35 was off the Great Barrier Reef a few years ago, and her super soft Yanmar mounts all sheered off, leaving the engine flopping around inside the hull, where it quickly punched a hole in the hull. The guy was lifted off by a helicopter as the boat sank under him. Not the first time I heard of that happening.He later disappeared without a trace on another Spencer 35,while sailing back to BC from Hawaii.| 35234|35234|2018-08-18 10:43:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Foam Options|Hi Guys,I'm ripping out foam , quite a bit, to weld on all sorts and need a heads up re foam products available.Titan foam was mentioned, but what kind... they make a wide variety. Aparently only available over the internet...Also mentioned years ago I think, a 2 part kit (bottles?) , spray on, about $600?? Contained a reasonable amount....???Any info much appriciated as I gotta get this together before the weather turnsThanx | 35235|9744|2018-08-18 10:50:55|SHANE ROTHWELL|Foam|These computers... or my system, is getting the better of meAm ripping out heaps of foam and scrambling to get things welded, coated and foamed.Titan foam was mentioned, only available over the net apparently, but what kind? They make a wide selection.Also mentioned coupla years back, a 2 part system, spray-on, about$600?Thanks| 35236|35234|2018-08-18 15:35:31|Darren Bos|Re: Foam Options| Tiger foam is one option.Â I think you're on the West Coast Shane?Â If so, it is available in Burnaby, BC, although more expensive than shown online. Because there are Canadian distributors I couldn't the Americans to ship it here.Â I haven't used my kits yet, but decided on it after talking to someone who had done their whole boat with it and was happy with the result.Â The foam is closed cell and fire retardant.Â Â I think it was the Fast Rise Class 1 fire retardant formula I went with. On 18-08-18 07:43 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Hi Guys, I'm ripping out foam , quite a bit, to weld on all sorts and need a heads up re foam products available. Titan foam was mentioned, but what kind... they make a wide variety. Aparently only available over the internet... Also mentioned years ago I think, a 2 part kit (bottles?) , spray on, about $600?? Contained a reasonable amount....??? Any info much appriciated as I gotta get this together before the weather turns ThanxÂ | 35237|35234|2018-08-18 15:40:40|Maxime Camirand|Re: Foam Options|If you can't get an American company to ship you something to a Canadian address, you can use reship.com. I use it a lot. On 18 August 2018 at 15:35, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Tiger foam is one option.Â I think you're on the West Coast Shane?Â If so, it is available in Burnaby, BC, although more expensive than shown online. Because there are Canadian distributors I couldn't the Americans to ship it here.Â I haven't used my kits yet, but decided on it after talking to someone who had done their whole boat with it and was happy with the result.Â The foam is closed cell and fire retardant.Â Â I think it was the Fast Rise Class 1 fire retardant formula I went with. On 18-08-18 07:43 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Hi Guys, I'm ripping out foam , quite a bit, to weld on all sorts and need a heads up re foam products available. Titan foam was mentioned, but what kind... they make a wide variety. Aparently only available over the internet... Also mentioned years ago I think, a 2 part kit (bottles?) , spray on, about $600?? Contained a reasonable amount....??? Any info much appriciated as I gotta get this together before the weather turns ThanxÂ | 35238|35238|2018-08-18 16:33:18|m44um44u|Blue Water Navigation|The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut. It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228.https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvhPlease pass it on.| 35239|35234|2018-08-18 18:12:44|brentswain38|Re: Foam Options|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Angi just spray foamed her boat with a kit. 650 board feet for $720. Make sure you get closed cell. Open cell is a disaster, but is half the price. Open cell is not worth any price. I believe she said she got it at Home Despot, but she said check for it on EbayI mentioned to another young lady living aboard here, that $720 is far less than a month's rent ashore , but will give you the most comfortable home you will ever live in.Hi Guys,I'm ripping out foam , quite a bit, to weld on all sorts and need a heads up re foam products available.Titan foam was mentioned, but what kind... they make a wide variety. Aparently only available over the internet...Also mentioned years ago I think, a 2 part kit (bottles?) , spray on, about $600?? Contained a reasonable amount....???Any info much appriciated as I gotta get this together before the weather turnsThanx | 35240|35238|2018-08-18 18:20:43|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Navigation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Just signed it.I hear navies around the world are starting to teach celestial navigation again, after realizing how easily satellite systems can be hacked, and rendered useless,leaving navies "lost at sea." That will become the new warfare.For them to not realize this, makes them as dense as a smoker in a forest fire .The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut. It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228.https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvhPlease pass it on.| 35241|35238|2018-08-19 12:49:48|Darren Bos|Re: Blue Water Navigation| I usually try not to speak when I know very little about what's going on, but with the hope of getting educated, is WWV/WWVH really necessary?Â In the era where you didn't have cheap, but very accurate timepieces it was really useful.Â However, nowadays even a sailor with a very restricted budget could afford a dozen quartz watches with which to compare the time.Â While the GPS constellation is functioning normally it provides accurate time, and I think it would be delightfully ironic just to use only the time from GPS for navigation.Â Also, should the GPS satellite array ever go down, you still have your watches that you have observed over the years and thus know their rate of deviation.Â With a small collection of quartz watches you'd have time-keeping good enough to make Cook or Vancouver green with envy.Â So what have I missed that makes WWV/WWVH necessary? On 18-08-18 11:58 AM, m44um44u@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut.Â Â It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh Please pass it on. | 35242|35238|2018-08-19 14:41:03|Matt Malone|Re: Blue Water Navigation| #ygrps-yiv-1028032841 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Darren, I agree. I have read all that WWV/WWVH does on the petition. All of it has some convenience and purpose. It is convenient they are all available through the same all-band radio as many other sources of information and it is audible so one can hear variations in reception. With digital-straight-to-the-receiver antennas, like GPS or AIS, you either see output or not. There is no feedback as to whether you are close to getting adequate reception. Almost getting reception looks exactly the same as a dead something, or broken antenna wire, or.... However, I cannot pull in the stations. Well I can tell there is a station on 15MHz, but I cannot understand what is being said. There was a service out of Ottawa, CHU Canada broadcast by the NRC, but same story. 250 miles away, we could barely get it in the 1970s and now, I cannot pick it up anymore for all the static. The radio seems to pick up local and international broadcasts on other frequencies, so I doubt it is my radio. I think these are just low power stations that need to boost their signal to stay relevant. If GPS, GLONASS, BeiDou and Galileo are all lost globally (as opposed to being jammed locally), that would be apocalyptic, like an anti-satellite weapon war at the least. If one is planning for such a situation, I would recommend a table of lunars generated for the next few centuries. Right now, before the apocalypse, it would not be hard to download the data and print it, and copy a guide for the lunar method from an old copy of Bowditch. The information would make a tiny booklet that needs no batteries or tending all the way to the apocalypse, because, no one would announce, "GPS going down in 10 minutes, set your clocks." It would be paper. Just seal it up and put it away. I am not making fun, I am just pointing out something far more liable, and long lived, accessible and maintainable than a collection of quartz clocks, even if lunars are not as accurate. Alternately, sunrise or sunset at known locations can also be used to set the time with corrections for season, known longitude etc. If the apocalypse happens I think there will be some smart people in most ports who will have a collection of quartz clocks or something from which to set your boat's clock. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation I usually try not to speak when I know very little about what's going on, but with the hope of getting educated, is WWV/WWVH really necessary? In the era where you didn't have cheap, but very accurate timepieces it was really useful. However, nowadays even a sailor with a very restricted budget could afford a dozen quartz watches with which to compare the time. While the GPS constellation is functioning normally it provides accurate time, and I think it would be delightfully ironic just to use only the time from GPS for navigation. Also, should the GPS satellite array ever go down, you still have your watches that you have observed over the years and thus know their rate of deviation. With a small collection of quartz watches you'd have time-keeping good enough to make Cook or Vancouver green with envy. So what have I missed that makes WWV/WWVH necessary? On 18-08-18 11:58 AM, m44um44u@... [origamiboats] wrote: The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut. It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh Please pass it on. | 35243|35238|2018-08-19 18:25:07|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Navigation|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Given that I can talk around the world on a cheap ham or SSB , I doubt if WWV is all that expensive to run.I received it on one frequency or another all over the S Pacific.Their weather forecasts were extremely useful, saving me a lot of trouble ,for a tiny fraction of the cost of a computer version, far simpler, and far less prone to problems, with a tiny fraction the power draw. #ygrps-yiv-1494139392 #ygrps-yiv-1494139392ygrps-yiv-338452127 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Darren, I agree. I have read all that WWV/WWVH does on the petition. All of it has some convenience and purpose. It is convenient they are all available through the same all-band radio as many other sources of information and it is audible so one can hear variations in reception. With digital-straight-to-the-receiver antennas, like GPS or AIS, you either see output or not. There is no feedback as to whether you are close to getting adequate reception. Almost getting reception looks exactly the same as a dead something, or broken antenna wire, or.... However, I cannot pull in the stations. Well I can tell there is a station on 15MHz, but I cannot understand what is being said. There was a service out of Ottawa, CHU Canada broadcast by the NRC, but same story. 250 miles away, we could barely get it in the 1970s and now, I cannot pick it up anymore for all the static. The radio seems to pick up local and international broadcasts on other frequencies, so I doubt it is my radio. I think these are just low power stations that need to boost their signal to stay relevant. If GPS, GLONASS, BeiDou and Galileo are all lost globally (as opposed to being jammed locally), that would be apocalyptic, like an anti-satellite weapon war at the least. If one is planning for such a situation, I would recommend a table of lunars generated for the next few centuries. Right now, before the apocalypse, it would not be hard to download the data and print it, and copy a guide for the lunar method from an old copy of Bowditch. The information would make a tiny booklet that needs no batteries or tending all the way to the apocalypse, because, no one would announce, "GPS going down in 10 minutes, set your clocks." It would be paper. Just seal it up and put it away. I am not making fun, I am just pointing out something far more liable, and long lived, accessible and maintainable than a collection of quartz clocks, even if lunars are not as accurate. Alternately, sunrise or sunset at known locations can also be used to set the time with corrections for season, known longitude etc. If the apocalypse happens I think there will be some smart people in most ports who will have a collection of quartz clocks or something from which to set your boat's clock. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation I usually try not to speak when I know very little about what's going on, but with the hope of getting educated, is WWV/WWVH really necessary? In the era where you didn't have cheap, but very accurate timepieces it was really useful. However, nowadays even a sailor with a very restricted budget could afford a dozen quartz watches with which to compare the time. While the GPS constellation is functioning normally it provides accurate time, and I think it would be delightfully ironic just to use only the time from GPS for navigation. Also, should the GPS satellite array ever go down, you still have your watches that you have observed over the years and thus know their rate of deviation. With a small collection of quartz watches you'd have time-keeping good enough to make Cook or Vancouver green with envy. So what have I missed that makes WWV/WWVH necessary? On 18-08-18 11:58 AM, m44um44u@... [origamiboats] wrote: The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut. It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228.https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvhPlease pass it on. | 35244|35238|2018-08-20 09:50:30|Matt Malone|Re: Blue Water Navigation| #ygrps-yiv-1521370378 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Brent, Right now the K-index of the sun's radio interference activity is at a 4, which is just below "minor storm": https://www.qrparci.org/resource/FDIM81.pdf But I am surprised that you report such good reception of WWVH in the Pacific when (today, in daylight) I cannot hear WWV Denver (2200 km) on 2.5, 5, 15 or 20 MHz, and can only make out there is a station on 10MHz. Similarly, CHU Canada, at 370km away, is only slightly more detectable on 3330 kHz, and 7850 and 14670kHz are completely undetectable. I am getting very intermittent reception. I get it, hold position, and after a few seconds it turns completely to static only to come back a little later. Can others pull in these stations today, in daylight? Separately, can you reliably pull in these stations? Reliable enough to make them useful sources of information ? Can you get them only with a boat-sized antenna ? Or can you get them with a table-top radio ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 6:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Given that I can talk around the world on a cheap ham or SSB , I doubt if WWV is all that expensive to run.I received it on one frequency or another all over the S Pacific.Their weather forecasts were extremely useful, saving me a lot of trouble ,for a tiny fraction of the cost of a computer version, far simpler, and far less prone to problems, with a tiny fraction the power draw. Darren, I agree. I have read all that WWV/WWVH does on the petition. All of it has some convenience and purpose. It is convenient they are all available through the same all-band radio as many other sources of information and it is audible so one can hear variations in reception. With digital-straight-to-the-receiver antennas, like GPS or AIS, you either see output or not. There is no feedback as to whether you are close to getting adequate reception. Almost getting reception looks exactly the same as a dead something, or broken antenna wire, or.... However, I cannot pull in the stations. Well I can tell there is a station on 15MHz, but I cannot understand what is being said. There was a service out of Ottawa, CHU Canada broadcast by the NRC, but same story. 250 miles away, we could barely get it in the 1970s and now, I cannot pick it up anymore for all the static. The radio seems to pick up local and international broadcasts on other frequencies, so I doubt it is my radio. I think these are just low power stations that need to boost their signal to stay relevant. If GPS, GLONASS, BeiDou and Galileo are all lost globally (as opposed to being jammed locally), that would be apocalyptic, like an anti-satellite weapon war at the least. If one is planning for such a situation, I would recommend a table of lunars generated for the next few centuries. Right now, before the apocalypse, it would not be hard to download the data and print it, and copy a guide for the lunar method from an old copy of Bowditch. The information would make a tiny booklet that needs no batteries or tending all the way to the apocalypse, because, no one would announce, "GPS going down in 10 minutes, set your clocks." It would be paper. Just seal it up and put it away. I am not making fun, I am just pointing out something far more liable, and long lived, accessible and maintainable than a collection of quartz clocks, even if lunars are not as accurate. Alternately, sunrise or sunset at known locations can also be used to set the time with corrections for season, known longitude etc. If the apocalypse happens I think there will be some smart people in most ports who will have a collection of quartz clocks or something from which to set your boat's clock. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation I usually try not to speak when I know very little about what's going on, but with the hope of getting educated, is WWV/WWVH really necessary? In the era where you didn't have cheap, but very accurate timepieces it was really useful. However, nowadays even a sailor with a very restricted budget could afford a dozen quartz watches with which to compare the time. While the GPS constellation is functioning normally it provides accurate time, and I think it would be delightfully ironic just to use only the time from GPS for navigation. Also, should the GPS satellite array ever go down, you still have your watches that you have observed over the years and thus know their rate of deviation. With a small collection of quartz watches you'd have time-keeping good enough to make Cook or Vancouver green with envy. So what have I missed that makes WWV/WWVH necessary? On 18-08-18 11:58 AM, m44um44u@... [origamiboats] wrote: The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut. It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh Please pass it on. | 35245|35238|2018-08-20 12:11:19|Darren Bos|Re: Blue Water Navigation| According to the NIST budget, dropping WWV and WWHV would reduce their budget by 6.3 million dollars.Â I'd missed the fact that they had a some weather information.Â On 18-08-19 03:25 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Given that I can talk around the world on a cheap ham or SSB , I doubt if WWV is all thatÂ expensive to run.I received it on one frequency or another all over the S Pacific.Their weather forecasts were extremely useful, saving me a lot of trouble ,for a tiny fraction of the cost of a computer version, far simpler,Â andÂ far less prone toÂ problems, with a tiny fraction the power draw. Darren, I agree.Â I have read all that WWV/WWVH does on the petition.Â Â All of it has some convenience and purpose.Â Â Â It is convenient they are all available through the same all-band radio as many other sources of information and it is audible so one can hear variations in reception.Â Â With digital-straight-to-the-receiver antennas, like GPS or AIS, you either see output or not.Â There is no feedback as to whether you are close to getting adequate reception. Â Almost getting reception looks exactly the same as a dead something, or broken antenna wire, or....Â However, I cannot pull in the stations.Â Â Well I can tell there is a station on 15MHz, but I cannot understand what is being said.Â There was a service out of Ottawa, CHU Canada broadcast by the NRC, but same story.Â Â 250 miles away, we could barely get it in the 1970s and now, I cannot pick it up anymore for all the static.Â Â The radio seems to pick up local and international broadcasts on other frequencies, so I doubt it is my radio.Â I think these are just low power stations that need to boost their signal to stay relevant. If GPS, GLONASS, BeiDou and Galileo are all lost globally (as opposed to being jammed locally), that would be apocalyptic, like an anti-satellite weapon war at the least. Â Â If one is planning for such a situation, I would recommend a table of lunars generated for the next few centuries.Â Right now, before the apocalypse, it would not be hard to download the data and print it, and copy a guide for the lunar method from an old copy of Bowditch. Â The information would make a tiny booklet that needs no batteries or tending all the way to the apocalypse, because, no one would announce, "GPS going down in 10 minutes, set your clocks." Â It would be paper.Â Just seal it up and put it away.Â Â I am not making fun, I am just pointing out something far more liable, and long lived, accessible and maintainable than a collection of quartz clocks, even if lunars are not as accurate.Â Alternately, sunrise or sunset at known locations can also be used to set the time with corrections for season, known longitude etc. If the apocalypse happens I think there will be some smart people in most ports who will have a collection of quartz clocks or something from which to set your boat's clock. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation Â Â I usually try not to speak when I know very little about what's going on, but with the hope of getting educated, is WWV/WWVH really necessary?Â In the era where you didn't have cheap, but very accurate timepieces it was really useful.Â However, nowadays even a sailor with a very restricted budget could afford a dozen quartz watches with which to compare the time.Â While the GPS constellation is functioning normally it provides accurate time, and I think it would be delightfully ironic just to use only the time from GPS for navigation.Â Also, should the GPS satellite array ever go down, you still have your watches that you have observed over the years and thus know their rate of deviation.Â With a small collection of quartz watches you'd have time-keeping good enough to make Cook or Vancouver green with envy.Â So what have I missed that makes WWV/WWVH necessary? On 18-08-18 11:58 AM, m44um44u@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut.Â Â It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh Please pass it on. | 35246|35238|2018-08-20 12:35:26|Darren Bos|Re: Blue Water Navigation| I tried this morning in Vancouver, BC.Â I can just barely get useful info on 10MHz and nothing on the others.Â I was using the built in antenna on my Sony tabletop radio.Â I get both WWV and WWHV as judged by the presence of both male and female voices.Â I'm not a HAM, but given the short antenna and being so near so many sources of interference in the city, that doesn't seem so bad.Â If you switched off electronics/engine on a boat I suspect things would be better, even with just the stock antenna. On 18-08-20 06:50 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Brent, Right now the K-index of the sun's radio interference activity is at a 4, which is just below "minor storm": https://www.qrparci.org/resource/FDIM81.pdf But I am surprised that you report such good reception of WWVH in the Pacific when (today, in daylight) I cannot hear WWV Denver (2200 km) on 2.5, 5, 15 or 20 MHz, and can only make out there is a station on 10MHz.Â Â Similarly, CHU Canada, at 370km away, is only slightly more detectable on 3330 kHz, and 7850 and 14670kHz are completely undetectable.Â Â I am getting very intermittent reception.Â I get it, hold position, and after a few seconds it turns completely to static only to come back a little later. Can others pull in these stations today, in daylight? Â Separately, can you reliably pull in these stations?Â Reliable enough to make them useful sources of information ?Â Â Can you get them only with a boat-sized antenna ? Â Or can you get them with a table-top radio ?Â Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 6:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation Â Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Given that I can talk around the world on a cheap ham or SSB , I doubt if WWV is all thatÂ expensive to run.I received it on one frequency or another all over the S Pacific.Their weather forecasts were extremely useful, saving me a lot of trouble ,for a tiny fraction of the cost of a computer version, far simpler,Â andÂ far less prone toÂ problems, with a tiny fraction the power draw. Darren, I agree.Â I have read all that WWV/WWVH does on the petition.Â Â All of it has some convenience and purpose.Â Â Â It is convenient they are all available through the same all-band radio as many other sources of information and it is audible so one can hear variations in reception.Â Â With digital-straight-to-the-receiver antennas, like GPS or AIS, you either see output or not.Â There is no feedback as to whether you are close to getting adequate reception. Â Almost getting reception looks exactly the same as a dead something, or broken antenna wire, or....Â However, I cannot pull in the stations.Â Â Well I can tell there is a station on 15MHz, but I cannot understand what is being said.Â There was a service out of Ottawa, CHU Canada broadcast by the NRC, but same story.Â Â 250 miles away, we could barely get it in the 1970s and now, I cannot pick it up anymore for all the static.Â Â The radio seems to pick up local and international broadcasts on other frequencies, so I doubt it is my radio.Â I think these are just low power stations that need to boost their signal to stay relevant. If GPS, GLONASS, BeiDou and Galileo are all lost globally (as opposed to being jammed locally), that would be apocalyptic, like an anti-satellite weapon war at the least. Â Â If one is planning for such a situation, I would recommend a table of lunars generated for the next few centuries.Â Right now, before the apocalypse, it would not be hard to download the data and print it, and copy a guide for the lunar method from an old copy of Bowditch. Â The information would make a tiny booklet that needs no batteries or tending all the way to the apocalypse, because, no one would announce, "GPS going down in 10 minutes, set your clocks." Â It would be paper.Â Just seal it up and put it away.Â Â I am not making fun, I am just pointing out something far more liable, and long lived, accessible and maintainable than a collection of quartz clocks, even if lunars are not as accurate.Â Alternately, sunrise or sunset at known locations can also be used to set the time with corrections for season, known longitude etc. If the apocalypse happens I think there will be some smart people in most ports who will have a collection of quartz clocks or something from which to set your boat's clock. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Navigation Â Â I usually try not to speak when I know very little about what's going on, but with the hope of getting educated, is WWV/WWVH really necessary?Â In the era where you didn't have cheap, but very accurate timepieces it was really useful.Â However, nowadays even a sailor with a very restricted budget could afford a dozen quartz watches with which to compare the time.Â While the GPS constellation is functioning normally it provides accurate time, and I think it would be delightfully ironic just to use only the time from GPS for navigation.Â Also, should the GPS satellite array ever go down, you still have your watches that you have observed over the years and thus know their rate of deviation.Â With a small collection of quartz watches you'd have time-keeping good enough to make Cook or Vancouver green with envy.Â So what have I missed that makes WWV/WWVH necessary? On 18-08-18 11:58 AM, m44um44u@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â The latest budget proposal to Congress includes the shutting down go WWV / WWVH. It is important for those who actually navigate, and for those who go to sea, it is of vital importance. Check out the link below and let's hope it doesn't get cut.Â Â It needs 100,000 signatures by September 15th to insure a response by the White House and to date there are just 228. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh Please pass it on. | 35247|35238|2018-08-20 16:38:54|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Navigation|My backstay, insulted both ends, makes a great short wave antenna. With it I have got Vancouver AM radio,clearly , for a short time, from Bora Bora.I get radio New Zealand on short wave, very clearly, every night.I also get Radio Havanna.Add a lot of external, wire antenna.For time and weather checks ,night reception is all you need.#ygrps-yiv-891342599 #ygrps-yiv-891342599ygrps-yiv-191254117 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Brent, Right now the K-index of the sun's radio interference activity is at a 4, which is just below "minor storm": https://www.qrparci.org/resource/FDIM81.pdf But I am surprised that you report such good reception of WWVH in the Pacific when (today, in daylight) I cannot hear WWV Denver (2200 km) on 2.5, 5, 15 or 20 MHz, and can only make out there is a station on 10MHz. Similarly, CHU Canada, at 370km away, is only slightly more detectable on 3330 kHz, and 7850 and 14670kHz are completely undetectable. I am getting very intermittent reception. I get it, hold position, and after a few seconds it turns completely to static only to come back a little later. Can others pull in these stations today, in daylight? Separately, can you reliably pull in these stations? Reliable enough to make them useful sources of information ? Can you get them only with a boat-sized antenna ? Or can you get them with a table-top radio ? Matt | 35248|35238|2018-08-20 16:42:34|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Navigation|I wonder how much of that budget is totally useless bureaucrats who we could get long much better without . The key to being a successful parasite, is to not kill your host.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :According to the NIST budget, dropping WWV and WWHV would reduce their budget by 6.3 million dollars. I'd missed the fact that they had a some weather information. On 18-08-19 03:25 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: | 35249|35238|2018-08-20 17:59:38|opuspaul|Re: Blue Water Navigation|The further you get away from cities and electrical noise, the better the reception of radio signals. The world is awash with electrical noise now. I used to be able to get the HF radios regularly from the yachts in Fiji and Tonga from NZ but gave up a few years ago. It could just be a coincidence but the reception problems seemed to start when they started putting up wireless internet everywhere.I remember getting FM and AM signals from Washington, California and BC when I was in Fanning Island. There were almost no generators and no power on the island. I just clipped the antenna lead to a wire halyard. The same kind of thing would work for shortwave receivers. If you want maximum reception, you need to experiment and turn everything else off. Things like LED lights, chargers, regulators or refridgerators can create a lot of background noise.| 35250|35238|2018-08-21 16:43:09|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Navigation|I got radio New Zealand here in Heriot Bay loud and clear last night, along with WWV 10. No problem.| 35251|35251|2018-08-28 18:01:36|brentswain38|Anchor well|I just did a bit of maintenance on my anchor well, for the first time in 34 years. I recon it is good for that many more years now, but if I were doing it again, I would use stainless for the back and bottom, or 1/4" plate. It is such a tiny piece that the extra weight of 1/4 inch plate, or the cost of stainless would be insignificant.| 35252|35251|2018-08-28 20:49:00|Aaron|Re: Anchor well|I almost did use SS on mine and decided not to, thinking that truck bed liner would last a long time Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 2:01 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: I just did a bit of maintenance on my anchor well, for the first time in 34 years. I recon it is good for that many more years now, but if I were doing it again, I would use stainless for the back and bottom, or 1/4" plate. 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#ygrps-yiv-695071076yiv0045833709ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-695071076 | 35253|35251|2018-08-29 18:29:36|opuspaul|Re: Anchor well|I never put in an anchor well and I have never missed it.| 35254|35251|2018-08-29 18:33:33|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor well| What do you do with anchor chain? Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 18:29 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor well To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I never put in an anchor well and I have never missed it. | 35255|35251|2018-08-29 19:17:26|opuspaul|Re: Anchor well|The cable and chain for my primary anchor lives right on the drum which is slightly bigger than Brent's plans. I keep an emergency 22 pound Danforth anchor with nylon rode and about 25 feet of 5/16 chain stored at the stern on a hose reel. My primary anchor is now a 55 pound Excel. It is awesome, digging fast and digging deep. My old primary anchor was a 45 pound plow which let me down more than once despite best practice. Plows will often just lay on their side and not dig in properly while merrily skipping along the bottom. Having said that, I used one for many 20 years. After a few bad experiences, I learned to sometimes add the Danforth to it in series. I never dragged using this setup and it was quick and easy to rig up. I am a firm believer in tandem anchoring and would rather have one large bow roller for a massive anchor and chain setup than have two anchors going off the bow on separate but smaller rollers. https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.phpAll anchor rollers should spin freely or they will chafe or burn up lines in a surge. I had almost no wear at all on the nylon mooring line when I rode out cyclone Ami in Fiji. Other boats that relied on lines through anchor chocks or had poor rollers were in real trouble. Anyway, I digress. My other anchors (rarely used) store down below. Extra chain is stored under the floor in the bilge where the weight is kept low or in a small plastic barrel or jerry can with some vegetable oil. I keep a few 40 or 50 foot lengths of old wire cable. I could dive down and shackle them around a coral head if needed in a cyclone or use them for emergency rigging. Paul| 35256|35251|2018-08-30 21:07:57|aguysailing|Re: Anchor well|Massive anchor and all chain... does that affect bow being low in the water?| 35257|35251|2018-08-30 23:25:07|opuspaul|Re: Anchor well|I use steel cable with about 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain. When I am sailing on a long trip offshore, I normally take the anchor off the bow roller and put either on the cockpit floor or below. I don't do this for weight but because it will slam and make a racket if you end up pounding into waves. On shorter trips I have used a ratchet strap or lashing to hold it tightly in place.The weight of steel cable is much less than chain and it is normally on the drum which is set back from the bow. This is one of the drums big advantages. Some boats who use all chain end up going to high test chain to save weight in the bow but it costs a fortune, especially when you consider you should have about 300 feet or 100 meters. Using nylon rope isn't really an option in the tropics. Having got used to cable, I am not sure I will ever use nylon rope again.| 35258|35251|2018-08-31 11:25:12|Shawn Green|Re: Anchor well|I also welded my foredeck shut. Just didn't like the well at all. The storage space is not significant in my mind.| 35259|35251|2018-08-31 12:29:52|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor well| #ygrps-yiv-675340796 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I have a question about the options to an anchor well. What are the thoughts on a chain well deep by the keel, fed by a pipe where the diameter of the pipe does not allow a doubled section of chain to pass? The pipe carries chain at two times -- lowering the anchor and raising the anchor. If the gypsy feeds smoothly to a flared pipe, it seems that no snags can happen in raising the anchor if there is nothing stuck to the chain. I have read reports that chain in a chain well that is being withdrawn to lower the anchor can tangle on the way to the pipe, possibly owing to shifting of the chain while underway. Never the less, I have been considering this to eliminate the chain locker. Brent will no doubt have strong feelings, he always does. At present my boat has a very large chain well in the bow. My chain well is large enough for me to lay down in and sit up in (not comfortably), with all of my chain in it. It has a significant length of chain in it -- a decent load in a wheelbarrow or shopping cart amount of chain. I would not be surprised if there is 300 feet and over 300 pounds of weight high in the bow. The well takes the first 5 or 6 feet of the bow of the boat. The chain itself may well be replaced, it is far down the list of to-dos, it just gives me a sense of how over-large this well is. There is a huge amount of open space in this well that is not being used. I could hang stuff from the walls of the well, leaving a large gap in the middle for chain to fall from the gypsy to the bottom of the well. This well is not sealed in any sense from the interior of the boat -- it is behind a cute set of louvered doors in the fore-peak as was fashionable at the time. To my mind these doors serve no purpose. They do not prevent the smell of the chain from entering the cabin, nor would they hold back water. The well is no completely sealed from outside either because of the open hole to feed the chain to the gyspy -- there is currently no cap to cover the hole, but hammering in a wooden dowel would effectively seal it. The scupper leading to the the bilge is more than adequate to carry away any leakage into this locker, leaving pumping to be done. I have been following Roger Taylor and his single handed journeys in Mingming and Mingming II. He really had no intention of anchoring anywhere so his boat is not set up to make anchoring easy. As far as I can tell, he has no anchor well, or anything at the bow, he has in fact closed it behind a bulkhead and filled it with foam. He does a similar thing to the aft of the boat so that his boat is unsinkable. After being in a major wreck, his logic is simple, knowing your boat is unsinkable is reassuring. I know Brent has much the same feeling about steel, I believe for the same reasons, and both are warranted. A re-purposed and sealed up anchor well or chain well is not by itself enough volume to keep a boat afloat in any reasonable design, but this is a huge poorly-used volume that might be better sealed off, and holding lighter stowage than chain, remaining dry and sealed. At this point, no part of my boat is sealed from any other. There are what I would call 3/4 bulkheads -- five of them -- that cover 3/4 of a section through the boat, but not the remainder. The chain well is the forward-most, begging for an interior hatch, and to be sealed at the deck leaving my chain to be stored elsewhere, lower, in a space that is not so excessive. But to do that, I really need to use a chain pipe and chain well, so, what are the thoughts on this ? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Shawn Green greenseaboats@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, August 31, 2018 11:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well I also welded my foredeck shut. Just didn't like the well at all. The storage space is not significant in my mind. | 35260|35251|2018-08-31 13:18:42|Zoa Scott|Re: Anchor well|My boat has a fiberglassed plywood bin that fits in for chainÂ Works wellÂ On Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 8:25 AM Shawn Green greenseaboats@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â I also welded my foredeck shut. Just didn't like the well at all. The storage space is not significant in my mind. | 35261|35251|2018-08-31 23:02:50|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I find that turning my anchor upside down in the bow roller eliminates slamming. I used to cat my anchor on deck for long passages. In coral free higher latitude waters, I find that nylon and 15 feet of chain is all I have ever needed . I have a litre of lead, about 30 lbs, as a kellet.I only use wire in the tropics.I use steel cable with about 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain. When I am sailing on a long trip offshore, I normally take the anchor off the bow roller and put either on the cockpit floor or below. I don't do this for weight but because it will slam and make a racket if you end up pounding into waves. On shorter trips I have used a ratchet strap or lashing to hold it tightly in place.The weight of steel cable is much less than chain and it is normally on the drum which is set back from the bow. This is one of the drums big advantages. Some boats who use all chain end up going to high test chain to save weight in the bow but it costs a fortune, especially when you consider you should have about 300 feet or 100 meters. Using nylon rope isn't really an option in the tropics. Having got used to cable, I am not sure I will ever use nylon rope again.| 35262|35251|2018-08-31 23:18:55|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well| I find my well extremely useful for 160 feet of 3/4 inch braid, two 30 lb kellets an extension handle for the winch, etc., all of which you have to haul from the cockpit, if you don't have the well. I wouldn't be without it.I remember dragging anchor in the entrance to Whangarei one morning. My chain jammed in the hawse pipe, so I piled it on deck, just to get underway before hitting the rocks. Forgot about it all the way to Cape Brett, a nice broad reach, with offshore winds. Turning into the Bay of Islands, the works went overboard, and I had to hand pull it all in, beating into a 25 knot SW wind. Resolved then and there to always have someplace to put things down forward of the cockpit, with no fear of it going overboard.Without it, everything has to be packed from the cockpit, potentially dangerous, if it means having to quickly set another anchor. I always have a second one on the bow, ready to go instantly, thanks to the well.| 35263|35251|2018-09-01 02:35:25|opuspaul|Re: Anchor well|I am not sure I follow you. Does your chain go through a hawse pipe or over a roller or do you mean a hawse pipe to chain stored below? Do you keep the chain on the drum like I do? If so, it should be instantly available and only take a minute to roll on the drum if you happened to pull it on deck first.I am really surpised you use so little chain and nylon line. I would be worried it might get cut on a sharp rock or bit of debris on the bottom. I have some big lead kellets on board but found with 50 or 75 feet of chain, I never felt the need for them. I have hydraulic drive to my anchor winch so don't worry about how easy or hard it is to haul it up. As I said before, for a spare anchor for instant use, I use my stern anchor. It has come in really handy a few times and also makes a good towing line. I find hose reels for very long lines really handy. They are just about the only thing guaranteed to self feed if you are alone and towing out a line or anchor with a dinghy.I remember one nasty night where I was dragging with no room to go on the north coast of Maui. I just turned the engine and the hydraulic winch on and let it haul while I drove the boat out of the bay from the cockpit. This was probably the worst experience I ever had on the boat. I just ran out of the bay at the end of it but I had actually dragged earlier and then had to change my anchor after it got bent it in the storm and swells. I was alone and the wind and spray was so bad I could hardly see with 100 mph gusts coming off the mountains against the waves wrapping into the bay. Without the hydraulic winch I am pretty sure I would have ended up on the beach. The storm lasted over 2 days from beginning to end with little to no sleep. The waves so high and the chop so steep that the steel anchor cable kept jumping out of the bow roller. The winter storms I had in Hawaii with their big swells and unprotected anchorages are just crazy. Worse than any cyclones I have been in. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I find my well extremely useful for 160 feet of 3/4 inch braid, two 30 lb kellets an extension handle for the winch, etc., all of which you have to haul from the cockpit, if you don't have the well. I wouldn't be without it.I remember dragging anchor in the entrance to Whangarei one morning. My chain jammed in the hawse pipe, so I piled it on deck, just to get underway before hitting the rocks. Forgot about it all the way to Cape Brett, a nice broad reach, with offshore winds. Turning into the Bay of Islands, the works went overboard, and I had to hand pull it all in, beating into a 25 knot SW wind. Resolved then and there to always have someplace to put things down forward of the cockpit, with no fear of it going overboard.Without it, everything has to be packed from the cockpit, potentially dangerous, if it means having to quickly set another anchor. I always have a second one on the bow, ready to go instantly, thanks to the well.| 35264|35251|2018-09-01 08:53:50|a.sobriquet|Re: Anchor well|Paul,What do you mean by a hose reel? Surely not a garden hose reel. Maybe a firehose reel? Where do you find such?Thank you,A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :... I find hose reels for very long lines really handy. They are just about the only thing guaranteed to self feed if you are alone and towing out a line or anchor with a dinghy.... Paul| 35265|35251|2018-09-01 11:29:10|Darren Bos|Re: Anchor well| Matt, While it is attractive to get the weight down really low, the chain piled in a short wide locker will eventually fall over on itself and make a tangle.Â To convince yourself, just pile your chain from a single point and watch it pile.Â Left to its own devices, it makes a surprisingly high pyramid that is just waiting to fall-over or slide-over and create an opportunity for a tangle.Â When you go to re-deploy the anchor, that tangle is going to hit the pipe with a fair bit of force as the chain is being let out, leading to further problems (a plastic pipe will likely break, the chain might jam itself into a thin-walled metal pipe and a thick walled metal pipe is going to transfer the force somewhere you don't want). Since we're refitting our boat, I already had chain and a windlass so keeping them made that option inexpensive.Â I think the ideal chain locker is tall and narrow.Â To store enough chain you are probably going to need to pile it from the top of the keel to near deck height, but that still probably puts the centre of mass lower than it would be in the average triangular-bow-chain-locker.Â I built my chain locker out of a piece of 10" ID PVC pipe.Â I'd had the idea in the back of my mind, and after a bunch of looking (just as a matter of keeping an eye out), I found a scrap piece of PVC pipe for free (I'd make the pipe out of fiberglass instead of buying new PVC pipe).Â At 10" ID the pipe is narrow enough that the chain can't pull its trick of piling high and falling over on itself.Â My chain locker comfortably holds our 250' of 5/16" chain.Â Because the pipe is completely sealed it can be moved aft in the boat and abut a living space without problems of water and smell.Â I've mounted a manual diaphragm pump to empty the pipe of water/sludge.Â I used G-flex to glue the PVC.Â I might use a hot-air plastic welder if I were to do it again. So, wherever you were going to run your chain pipe, why not just upgrade the pipe size quite a few sizes and make it into a self-tending vertically oriented chain well? On 18-08-31 09:29 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I have a question about the options to an anchor well.Â Â What are the thoughts on a chain well deep by the keel, fed by a pipe where the diameter of the pipe does not allow a doubled section of chain to pass? Â The pipe carries chain at two times -- lowering the anchor and raising the anchor.Â Â If the gypsy feeds smoothly to a flared pipe, it seems that no snags can happen in raising the anchor if there is nothing stuck to the chain.Â Â I have read reports that chain in a chain well that is being withdrawn to lower the anchor can tangle on the way to the pipe, possibly owing to shifting of the chain while underway. Â Â Never the less, I have been considering this to eliminate the chain locker. Â Â Brent will no doubt have strong feelings, he always does. Â ..... But to do that, I really need to use a chain pipe and chain well, so, what are the thoughts on this ? Matt | 35266|35251|2018-09-01 18:33:43|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Back then, I had no drum. Now, I roll it all on the drum. I never had the rope cut, in over 40 years of cruising, mostly full time.Sometimes, getting out of a narrow bay against the wind, I have run the rode down the sided deck to the cockpit, so I can pull it in without leaving the helm. I roll it on the drum after reaching open water. I have suggested this to those who don't have an anchor winch, yet. Lets them use their sheet winches. Easy to do, if you don't have too much chain on. The nice thing about kellets intsead of chain, is you get to lift them separately. With chain, you lift the weigh of chain and anchor simultaneously. Most rope comes on beautiful plastic reels, which get thrown out after use ( freebees from the dumpster).The black ones don't break down in UV. I remember someone on some "Yottie" site asking if a stern reel was worth the $400 they cost! I informed them of free options ( which probably helped get me banned from that site, by their sponsors).I am not sure I follow you. Does your chain go through a hawse pipe or over a roller or do you mean a hawse pipe to chain stored below? Do you keep the chain on the drum like I do? If so, it should be instantly available and only take a minute to roll on the drum if you happened to pull it on deck first.I am really surpised you use so little chain and nylon line. I would be worried it might get cut on a sharp rock or bit of debris on the bottom. I have some big lead kellets on board but found with 50 or 75 feet of chain, I never felt the need for them. I have hydraulic drive to my anchor winch so don't worry about how easy or hard it is to haul it up. As I said before, for a spare anchor for instant use, I use my stern anchor. It has come in really handy a few times and also makes a good towing line. I find hose reels for very long lines really handy. They are just about the only thing guaranteed to self feed if you are alone and towing out a line or anchor with a dinghy.I remember one nasty night where I was dragging with no room to go on the north coast of Maui. I just turned the engine and the hydraulic winch on and let it haul while I drove the boat out of the bay from the cockpit. This was probably the worst experience I ever had on the boat. I just ran out of the bay at the end of it but I had actually dragged earlier and then had to change my anchor after it got bent it in the storm and swells. I was alone and the wind and spray was so bad I could hardly see with 100 mph gusts coming off the mountains against the waves wrapping into the bay. Without the hydraulic winch I am pretty sure I would have ended up on the beach. The storm lasted over 2 days from beginning to end with little to no sleep. The waves so high and the chop so steep that the steel anchor cable kept jumping out of the bow roller. The winter storms I had in Hawaii with their big swells and unprotected anchorages are just crazy. Worse than any cyclones I have been in. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I find my well extremely useful for 160 feet of 3/4 inch braid, two 30 lb kellets an extension handle for the winch, etc., all of which you have to haul from the cockpit, if you don't have the well. I wouldn't be without it.I remember dragging anchor in the entrance to Whangarei one morning. My chain jammed in the hawse pipe, so I piled it on deck, just to get underway before hitting the rocks. Forgot about it all the way to Cape Brett, a nice broad reach, with offshore winds. Turning into the Bay of Islands, the works went overboard, and I had to hand pull it all in, beating into a 25 knot SW wind. Resolved then and there to always have someplace to put things down forward of the cockpit, with no fear of it going overboard.Without it, everything has to be packed from the cockpit, potentially dangerous, if it means having to quickly set another anchor. I always have a second one on the bow, ready to go instantly, thanks to the well.| 35267|35251|2018-09-01 18:44:58|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well| Any cone shape with the point directly under the hawse pipe will prevent chain from piling up. Traffic cones have the right shape ,but will collapse under the weight of chain. Building up the inside of the cone with lots of fibreglass, solves that problem. A plastic 45 gallon drum makes a good chain locker ,if it will fit.You can cut the top off, and cut the top down enough to fit inside, then bolt the cone to it at the right place . Slots near the top, to take turnbuckles to hold it down, eliminates the need for bolt holes near the bottom; so it won't leak. You can put a thru hull and ball valve on the bottom to drain it at your leisure. Used poly plastic water tanks also work as chain lockers.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Matt,While it is attractive to get the weight down really low, the chain piled in a short wide locker will eventually fall over on itself and make a tangle. To convince yourself, just pile your chain from a single point and watch it pile. Left to its own devices, it makes a surprisingly high pyramid that is just waiting to fall-over or slide-over and create an opportunity for a tangle. When you go to re-deploy the anchor, that tangle is going to hit the pipe with a fair bit of force as the chain is being let out, leading to further problems (a plastic pipe will likely break, the chain might jam itself into a thin-walled metal pipe and a thick walled metal pipe is going to transfer the force somewhere you don't want).| 35268|35251|2018-09-01 19:22:54|opuspaul|Re: Anchor well|It is just is a plastic garden hose reel. The kind that fits flat on a wall and is mounted to some plywood and then lashed to the rail. It may not seem very robust but it has lasted many years. You can see it a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8NEnluSA9IExcuse the mess....I had some projects going on.If I was going to Fiordland or the south tip of NZ I would probably get more lines and want something more robust. You should see what Skip Novak uses here: Go to the 5 min mark. I have a friend who runs charters to the Subantarctic Islands and he has a similar arrangement. Serious stuff.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L23OJOrOez4| 35269|35251|2018-09-02 07:18:19|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor well| Excellent suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.) Some details to work out: - how and where to connect the bitter end of the hawser that keeps all the chain from paying out. - a grating at the bottom to.keep the chain from laying in the sludge that is washed off. - a two-hand sized inspection hatch near the top to deal with the unimaginable tangle. - a wash spray nossle built in at the top for rinses of the chain with non-stinky water from outside the harbour/rainwater finish. - a 2" pipe, connected to the side, below the grate, above the pump out, with a 90 pointed up, pipe up the outside of the locker, a valve, and a little computer fan to blow warm air down the pipe and up through the stack of chain and out the hawse pipe, as a vent, to dry the chain and vent the locker. - also serves to warm the chain in cold water sailing to reduce the un-foamed locker's tendency to gather condensation like a toilet tank right after pulling in 100 pounds of cold chain. Any condensation would form on the chain, more rapidly heating it, dripping down into the pump out. If one takes steps to keep the chain clean and dry, it will stink a lot less and last a lot longer. If one has their chain in a sealed plastic pipe why not make the pipe into a washer-dryer, or at least an aerobic composter, like the head. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 1, 11:29 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Matt, While it is attractive to get the weight down really low, the chain piled in a short wide locker will eventually fall over on itself and make a tangle. To convince yourself, just pile your chain from a single point and watch it pile. Left to its own devices, it makes a surprisingly high pyramid that is just waiting to fall-over or slide-over and create an opportunity for a tangle. When you go to re-deploy the anchor, that tangle is going to hit the pipe with a fair bit of force as the chain is being let out, leading to further problems (a plastic pipe will likely break, the chain might jam itself into a thin-walled metal pipe and a thick walled metal pipe is going to transfer the force somewhere you don't want). Since we're refitting our boat, I already had chain and a windlass so keeping them made that option inexpensive. I think the ideal chain locker is tall and narrow. To store enough chain you are probably going to need to pile it from the top of the keel to near deck height, but that still probably puts the centre of mass lower than it would be in the average triangular-bow-chain-locker. I built my chain locker out of a piece of 10" ID PVC pipe. I'd had the idea in the back of my mind, and after a bunch of looking (just as a matter of keeping an eye out), I found a scrap piece of PVC pipe for free (I'd make the pipe out of fiberglass instead of buying new PVC pipe). At 10" ID the pipe is narrow enough that the chain can't pull its trick of piling high and falling over on itself. My chain locker comfortably holds our 250' of 5/16" chain. Because the pipe is completely sealed it can be moved aft in the boat and abut a living space without problems of water and smell. I've mounted a manual diaphragm pump to empty the pipe of water/sludge. I used G-flex to glue the PVC. I might use a hot-air plastic welder if I were to do it again. So, wherever you were going to run your chain pipe, why not just upgrade the pipe size quite a few sizes and make it into a self-tending vertically oriented chain well? On 18-08-31 09:29 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: I have a question about the options to an anchor well. What are the thoughts on a chain well deep by the keel, fed by a pipe where the diameter of the pipe does not allow a doubled section of chain to pass? The pipe carries chain at two times -- lowering the anchor and raising the anchor. If the gypsy feeds smoothly to a flared pipe, it seems that no snags can happen in raising the anchor if there is nothing stuck to the chain. I have read reports that chain in a chain well that is being withdrawn to lower the anchor can tangle on the way to the pipe, possibly owing to shifting of the chain while underway. Never the less, I have been considering this to eliminate the chain locker. Brent will no doubt have strong feelings, he always does. ..... But to do that, I really need to use a chain pipe and chain well, so, what are the thoughts on this ? Matt | 35270|35251|2018-09-02 07:50:00|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor well| Yes, a drum makes sense. I like the ones where the lid can come off and be clamped back on with the bevel-ring and bead style closure. 45 gallons might be too large a volume, too large diameter. I am liking the thick plastic watermain pipe idea that Darren suggested. Thicker, more rust resistant than either a drum or plastic barrel. Easier to find a spot for it inside the boat... I wonder if I could have it inside a compression column structure that is just a little wider than my mast, to change to a deck-stepped mast.... chain filling an otherwise unused volume. Until now i had considered that i might make a water system pressure tank based on a thick-wall stainless pipe that doubles as the compression column. It would be way easier to weld up a square truss that a watermain pipe fits inside. But worst case that creates a combined failure where the chain rips the support of from under my mast. It would be way easier to find space for two vertical pipes side by side than a barrel, particularly if the two pipes are both watermain pipe. If I had a 60 foot monster like SVSeeker, I sure would consider a 45 gallon stainless drum ($350), or two, for chain. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 1, 18:45 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Any cone shape with the point directly under the hawse pipe will prevent chain from piling up. Traffic cones have the right shape ,but will collapse under the weight of chain. Building up the inside of the cone with lots of fibreglass, solves that problem. A plastic 45 gallon drum makes a good chain locker ,if it will fit.You can cut the top off, and cut the top down enough to fit inside, then bolt the cone to it at the right place . Slots near the top, to take turnbuckles to hold it down, eliminates the need for bolt holes near the bottom; so it won't leak. You can put a thru hull and ball valve on the bottom to drain it at your leisure. Used poly plastic water tanks also work as chain lockers. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Matt, While it is attractive to get the weight down really low, the chain piled in a short wide locker will eventually fall over on itself and make a tangle. To convince yourself, just pile your chain from a single point and watch it pile. Left to its own devices, it makes a surprisingly high pyramid that is just waiting to fall-over or slide-over and create an opportunity for a tangle. When you go to re-deploy the anchor, that tangle is going to hit the pipe with a fair bit of force as the chain is being let out, leading to further problems (a plastic pipe will likely break, the chain might jam itself into a thin-walled metal pipe and a thick walled metal pipe is going to transfer the force somewhere you don't want). | 35271|35251|2018-09-02 10:37:12|a.sobriquet|Re: Anchor well|Thanks for the suggestions. It's always nice when inexpensive everyday items work well in a marine environment.A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It is just is a plastic garden hose reel. The kind that fits flat on a wall and is mounted to some plywood and then lashed to the rail. It may not seem very robust but it has lasted many years. You can see it a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8NEnluSA9IExcuse the mess....I had some projects going on.If I was going to Fiordland or the south tip of NZ I would probably get more lines and want something more robust. You should see what Skip Novak uses here: Go to the 5 min mark. I have a friend who runs charters to the Subantarctic Islands and he has a similar arrangement. Serious stuff.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L23OJOrOez4| 35272|35251|2018-09-02 12:28:51|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor well| Not sure why this did not go before... Excellent suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.) Some details to work out: - how and where to connect the bitter end of the hawser that keeps all the chain from paying out. - a grating at the bottom to.keep the chain from laying in the sludge that is washed off. - a two-hand sized inspection hatch near the top to deal with the unimaginable tangle. - a wash spray nossle built in at the top for rinses of the chain with non-stinky water from outside the harbour/rainwater finish. - a 2" pipe, connected to the side, below the grate, above the pump out, with a 90 pointed up, pipe up the outside of the locker, a valve, and a little computer fan to blow warm air down the pipe and up through the stack of chain and out the hawse pipe, as a vent, to dry the chain and vent the locker. - also serves to warm the chain in cold water sailing to reduce the un-foamed locker's tendency to gather condensation like a toilet tank right after pulling in 100 pounds of cold chain. Any condensation would form on the chain, more rapidly heating it, dripping down into the pump out. If one takes steps to keep the chain clean and dry, it will stink a lot less and last a lot longer. If one has their chain in a sealed plastic pipe why not make the pipe into a washer-dryer, or at least an aerobic composter, like the head. Matt From: Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 1, 11:29 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Matt, While it is attractive to get the weight down really low, the chain piled in a short wide locker will eventually fall over on itself and make a tangle. To convince yourself, just pile your chain from a single point and watch it pile. Left to its own devices, it makes a surprisingly high pyramid that is just waiting to fall-over or slide-over and create an opportunity for a tangle. When you go to re-deploy the anchor, that tangle is going to hit the pipe with a fair bit of force as the chain is being let out, leading to further problems (a plastic pipe will likely break, the chain might jam itself into a thin-walled metal pipe and a thick walled metal pipe is going to transfer the force somewhere you don't want). Since we're refitting our boat, I already had chain and a windlass so keeping them made that option inexpensive. I think the ideal chain locker is tall and narrow. To store enough chain you are probably going to need to pile it from the top of the keel to near deck height, but that still probably puts the centre of mass lower than it would be in the average triangular-bow-chain-locker. I built my chain locker out of a piece of 10" ID PVC pipe. I'd had the idea in the back of my mind, and after a bunch of looking (just as a matter of keeping an eye out), I found a scrap piece of PVC pipe for free (I'd make the pipe out of fiberglass instead of buying new PVC pipe). At 10" ID the pipe is narrow enough that the chain can't pull its trick of piling high and falling over on itself. My chain locker comfortably holds our 250' of 5/16" chain. Because the pipe is completely sealed it can be moved aft in the boat and abut a living space without problems of water and smell. I've mounted a manual diaphragm pump to empty the pipe of water/sludge. I used G-flex to glue the PVC. I might use a hot-air plastic welder if I were to do it again. So, wherever you were going to run your chain pipe, why not just upgrade the pipe size quite a few sizes and make it into a self-tending vertically oriented chain well? On 18-08-31 09:29 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: I have a question about the options to an anchor well. What are the thoughts on a chain well deep by the keel, fed by a pipe where the diameter of the pipe does not allow a doubled section of chain to pass? The pipe carries chain at two times -- lowering the anchor and raising the anchor. If the gypsy feeds smoothly to a flared pipe, it seems that no snags can happen in raising the anchor if there is nothing stuck to the chain. I have read reports that chain in a chain well that is being withdrawn to lower the anchor can tangle on the way to the pipe, possibly owing to shifting of the chain while underway. Never the less, I have been considering this to eliminate the chain locker. Brent will no doubt have strong feelings, he always does. ..... But to do that, I really need to use a chain pipe and chain well, so, what are the thoughts on this ? Matt | 35273|35251|2018-09-02 15:05:45|Matt Malone|Re: Anchor well| #ygrps-yiv-239990918 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Twice now the list has failed to post this post, but it took a different one I sent minutes later.... Sending it for the 3rd time Excellent suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.) Some details to work out: - how and where to connect the bitter end of the hawser that keeps all the chain from paying out. - a grating at the bottom to.keep the chain from laying in the sludge that is washed off. - a two-hand sized inspection hatch near the top to deal with the unimaginable tangle. - a wash spray nossle built in at the top for rinses of the chain with non-stinky water from outside the harbour/rainwater finish. - a 2" pipe, connected to the side, below the grate, above the pump out, with a 90 pointed up, pipe up the outside of the locker, a valve, and a little computer fan to blow warm air down the pipe and up through the stack of chain and out the hawse pipe, as a vent, to dry the chain and vent the locker. - also serves to warm the chain in cold water sailing to reduce the un-foamed locker's tendency to gather condensation like a toilet tank right after pulling in 100 pounds of cold chain. Any condensation would form on the chain, more rapidly heating it, dripping down into the pump out. If one takes steps to keep the chain clean and dry, it will stink a lot less and last a lot longer. If one has their chain in a sealed plastic pipe why not make the pipe into a washer-dryer, or at least an aerobic composter, like the head. Matt | 35274|35251|2018-09-02 18:09:17|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well|Suggesting inexpensive ,everyday items, as alternatives to what the marine industry sells for exorbitant prices, will get you banned from many sites ,in response to demands from their sponsors.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks for the suggestions. It's always nice when inexpensive everyday items work well in a marine environment.A.S.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :It is just is a plastic garden hose reel. The kind that fits flat on a wall and is mounted to some plywood and then lashed to the rail. It may not seem very robust but it has lasted many years. You can see it a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8NEnluSA9IExcuse the mess....I had some projects going on.If I was going to Fiordland or the south tip of NZ I would probably get more lines and want something more robust. You should see what Skip Novak uses here: Go to the 5 min mark. I have a friend who runs charters to the Subantarctic Islands and he has a similar arrangement. Serious stuff.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L23OJOrOez4| 35275|35251|2018-09-02 19:24:46|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well|A cone solves the diameter problem.You can cut the height down. The lid inside, on the bottom, keeps the chain off the bottom.That lets you spray the chain with light oil, if you're not going to use it for while,or baking soda and water,to slow down corrosion.It only works on big boats. Bar tenders tell me they pay a $35 deposit on stainless beer kegs. You could probably buy one off a bar owner, for the deposit, Scrap yards also have them. Makes a quick and easy 'hippy killer " wood stove, or tanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Yes, a drum makes sense. I like the ones where the lid can come off and be clamped back on with the bevel-ring and bead style closure. 45 gallons might be too large a volume, too large diameter. If I had a 60 foot monster like SVSeeker, I sure would consider a 45 gallon stainless drum ($350), or two, for chain. Matt | 35276|35251|2018-09-03 00:37:38|Darren Bos|Re: Anchor well| Hey Matt, I've sent some pics to you directly as I haven't been able to post any to the Origamiboats photos/files section for some time.Â Comments on your questions inserted below in bold. On 18-09-02 12:05 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Twice now the list has failed to post this post, but it took a different one I sent minutes later....Â Â Sending it for the 3rd time Excellent suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.) Some details to work out: - how and where to connect the bitter end of the hawser that keeps all the chain from paying out. I attached a line to then end of my chain long enough for the chain to run out on deck where it could be cut in an emergency.Â The line is strong enough to hold chain and anchor pulled to length, but weak enough that it couldn't pull out the reinforced deck in the area of the windlass.Â The end of the rope has a shackle on it that is too large to fit through the hole under the windlass. - a grating at the bottom to.keep the chain from laying in the sludge that is washed off. Sent a pic of this to you.Â I made a grate and a support for the bottom of the tube using the material from the tub itself.Â PVC pipe flattens to sheet stock really nicely if you cut a chunk lengthwise, heat it in an oven to just enough to soften it and then clamp it between some pieces of 3/4" plywood.Â With this flat stock I made a raised grate inside the tube, a support for the great, and a piece to seal the bottom of the tube. - a two-hand sized inspection hatch near the top to deal with the unimaginable tangle. I cut a window out of the pipe near deck level.Â Glued another section of pipe inside to make a lip inside the cutout opening for the cutout section to rest against, then reinstalled cutout window with some spring loaded over-centre latches.Â Before glueing it into place the I made a groove on the inside lip that accepts some round foam gasket that seems to seal well. - a wash spray nossle built in at the top for rinses of the chain with non-stinky water from outside the harbour/rainwater finish. I can spray the chain as it comesin.Â I also put a nozzle right on the bow roller, but I haven't had a chance to use it yet.Â There is no reason you can't spray water down the hawse-pipe from the windlass as well, just remember to pump it out before the water level reaches the inspection port. - a 2" pipe, connected to the side, below the grate, above the pump out, with a 90 pointed up, pipe up the outside of the locker, a valve, and a little computer fan to blow warm air down the pipe and up through the stack of chain and out the hawse pipe, as a vent, to dry the chain and vent the locker. I used 1" pipe as my pumpout, but I haven't made any allowances for drying. - also serves to warm the chain in cold water sailing to reduce the un-foamed locker's tendency to gather condensation like a toilet tank right after pulling in 100 pounds of cold chain.Â Any condensation would form on the chain, more rapidly heating it, dripping down intoÂ the pump out. If one takes steps to keep the chain clean and dry, it will stink a lot less and last a lot longer.Â Â If one has their chain in a sealed plastic pipe why not make the pipe into a washer-dryer, or at least an aerobic composter, like the head. The tube that makes my chain locker is sealed well enough from the rest of the boat that the chain can get pretty smelly without affecting the interiour.Â I'm sure keeping it dry would make it last much longer though. Darren | 35277|35251|2018-09-03 05:25:08|rockrothwell|Stern Roller|Hi Guys, To keep things simple & solid, whilst I'm at it am building a roller exactly the same as the winlass forward. Mounted at mid level cross braÃ§e of the pullpit, port quarter, braced down to the bullworks. All the 5/8 braid-on rode from the winlass fwd 4-500 feet will go on it and the bit of chain & a hook for immediate deployment. Line for prawn traps atop the rode to haul with a separate cheepie spool to store Hydraulicly powered, but with no gear & rachet/paul on it, fteewheel hand crank roller or hydraulic. Working from the Heretics Guide it's pretty much paint by numbers, just with grinder & stick. With the exeptio of sailing, about the most fun you can have with your cloths on| 35278|35251|2018-09-03 06:29:34|brentswain38|Re: Anchor well|A great rundown of all the problems one avoids by using a drum winch. The bitter end should always have rope on it so, you can cut it free if you drag, and don't have time to get it back up. In the Cabo disaster, people were on the foredeck, buried in green water, trying to hack saw thru their chain. Floating rope makes it easier to recover later .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Excellent suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.) Some details to work out: - how and where to connect the bitter end of the hawser that keeps all the chain from paying out. - a grating at the bottom to.keep the chain from laying in the sludge that is washed off. - a two-hand sized inspection hatch near the top to deal with the unimaginable tangle. - a wash spray nossle built in at the top for rinses of the chain with non-stinky water from outside the harbour/rainwater finish. - a 2" pipe, connected to the side, below the grate, above the pump out, with a 90 pointed up, pipe up the outside of the locker, a valve, and a little computer fan to blow warm air down the pipe and up through the stack of chain and out the hawse pipe, as a vent, to dry the chain and vent the locker. - also serves to warm the chain in cold water sailing to reduce the un-foamed locker's tendency to gather condensation like a toilet tank right after pulling in 100 pounds of cold chain. Any condensation would form on the chain, more rapidly heating it, dripping down into the pump out. If one takes steps to keep the chain clean and dry, it will stink a lot less and last a lot longer. If one has their chain in a sealed plastic pipe why not make the pipe into a washer-dryer, or at least an aerobic composter, like the head. Matt | 35279|35251|2018-09-03 09:44:03|Matt Malone|"Cabo disaster"| #ygrps-yiv-697160542 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Do you mean hurricane Odile in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico in 2014 ? You have mentioned Cabo before, but I can never find any boat-related news about it. There is this: https://globalnews.ca/news/1569753/photo-gallery-canadians-in-cabo-san-lucas-begin-returning-home-share-images-of-destruction/ But no images of the harbour / anchorages. I was sure you mentioned Cabo years ago, if so, it was not 2014. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2018 5:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well A great rundown of all the problems one avoids by using a drum winch. The bitter end should always have rope on it so, you can cut it free if you drag, and don't have time to get it back up. In the Cabo disaster, people were on the foredeck, buried in green water, trying to hack saw thru their chain. Floating rope makes it easier to recover later . | 35280|35251|2018-09-03 13:30:08|Brian Stannard|Re: "Cabo disaster"|I am sure Brent is referring to the Cabo disaster that occurred around 1980. Many boats hit the beach including Motessier's Joshua. Most were caught totally unprepared. On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 10:09 AM Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Do you mean hurricane Odile in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico in 2014 ?Â Â You have mentioned Cabo before, but I can never find any boat-related news about it.Â Â There is this: https://globalnews.ca/news/1569753/photo-gallery-canadians-in-cabo-san-lucas-begin-returning-home-share-images-of-destruction/ But no images of the harbour / anchorages.Â Â I was sure you mentioned Cabo years ago, if so, it was not 2014. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2018 5:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well Â Â A great rundown of all the problems one avoids by using a drum winch. The bitter end should always have rope on it so, you can cut it free if you drag, and don't have time to get it back up. In the Cabo disaster, people were on the foredeck, buried in green water,Â trying toÂ hackÂ saw thru their chain. Floating rope makes it easier to recover later . -- CheersBrian | 35281|35251|2018-09-03 15:19:24|Matt Malone|Re: "Cabo disaster"| #ygrps-yiv-737492397 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} https://www.boatbuilding.xyz/seamanship-skills/cabo-san-lucas-1.html Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Brian Stannard brianstannard@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, September 3, 2018 1:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] "Cabo disaster" I am sure Brent is referring to the Cabo disaster that occurred around 1980. Many boats hit the beach including Motessier's Joshua. Most were caught totally unprepared. On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 10:09 AM Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Do you mean hurricane Odile in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico in 2014 ? You have mentioned Cabo before, but I can never find any boat-related news about it. There is this: https://globalnews.ca/news/1569753/photo-gallery-canadians-in-cabo-san-lucas-begin-returning-home-share-images-of-destruction/ But no images of the harbour / anchorages. I was sure you mentioned Cabo years ago, if so, it was not 2014. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2018 5:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well A great rundown of all the problems one avoids by using a drum winch. The bitter end should always have rope on it so, you can cut it free if you drag, and don't have time to get it back up. In the Cabo disaster, people were on the foredeck, buried in green water, trying to hack saw thru their chain. Floating rope makes it easier to recover later . -- Cheers Brian | 35282|35251|2018-09-03 19:24:51|brentswain38|Re: "Cabo disaster"|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes late in1982I am sure Brent is referring to the Cabo disaster that occurred around 1980. Many boats hit the beach including Motessier's Joshua. Most were caught totally unprepared. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2018 5:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well A great rundown of all the problems one avoids by using a drum winch. The bitter end should always have rope on it so, you can cut it free if you drag, and don't have time to get it back up. In the Cabo disaster, people were on the foredeck, buried in green water, trying to hack saw thru their chain. Floating rope makes it easier to recover later . | 35283|35251|2018-09-03 19:59:06|opuspaul|Re: Anchor well|I don't normally like the stuff since it is not as nice to handle and seems to be more effected by UV damage but it is a good idea to use a floating polypropylene line for your stern anchor or tow line. A lot of boats with nylon stern lines end up getting them tangled in their prop. The same thing goes for your dinghy painter. A good friend of mine almost put his 45 footer on a reef one night after he got his dinghy painter caught in the prop. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A great rundown of all the problems one avoids by using a drum winch. The bitter end should always have rope on it so, you can cut it free if you drag, and don't have time to get it back up. In the Cabo disaster, people were on the foredeck, buried in green water, trying to hack saw thru their chain. Floating rope makes it easier to recover later .| 35284|35251|2018-09-05 09:51:42|Matt Malone|Posting oddities| #ygrps-yiv-1241795701 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} QUESTION: ------------------ I am trying to diagnose oddities with the origamiboats@yahoogroups.com email list. If others could please check their inbox and check to see, if their email records are close to the same as these dates and times for these two messages, or days different, then please reply with when you received these messages: - Matt Malone, September 4 at 11:31pm (EDT) "Not sure why this did not go before..." - Darren Bos, September 5 at 5:10am (EDT) "Hey Matt, I've sent some pics to you directly as I haven't been able to post any to the Origamiboats photos/files section for some time." According to my records, these two messages were delayed by days from when they were actually sent. Background: ------------------ From time to time, there is something wrong with the mailing list. In the past, I send a message, and it refuses to send it back out by the mailing list. It happened twice before that I remember. This time something different happened. These are my email records for 3 attempts to send the same message, and the 3 eventual receipts of the attempts. Sunday 7:18am (EDT) - Sent "Excellent Suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.)" the first time Sunday 7:49am - Sent "Yes, a drum makes sense." in response to Brent. Sunday 7:50am - Received "Yes, a drum makes sense." --- The turn around of this message was prompt, as usual, so I decided that the list was working but that it had somehow lost the 7:18am message. This had happened like twice before, months ago, and about 2 months apart. This time I waited to see if the first message would come. Sunday 12:28pm - Resent "Excellent Suggestion Darren." this time with the first line "Not sure why this did not go before..." I figured, after 5 hours, it was not coming, so I just sent it again. I changed nothing about the message, it still had a long chain of messages back and forth below it. Sunday 3:05pm - Resent "Excellent Suggestion Darren." this time with the first line "Twice now the list has failed to pose this post...." -- the difference was, I trimmed off the chain of back and forth messages below it. I guessed the chain of back and forth messages might have been the problem. Sunday 3:06pm - Received the third attempt: "Twice now the list has failed to pose this post...." -- On the third attempt, the list put out the message in 1 minute. That leaves two copies of the message apparently lost. Monday 3:07am - Received the first attempt: "Excellent Suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.)" The first attempt to send the message, 20 hours after it was sent. Never have I had messages delayed this long. Tuesday 11:31pm - Received the second attempt: "Not sure why this did not go before..." -- that is 59 hours after I sent it to the list. I have just now checked the Origami boats group on the web -- I almost never look there, I rely on the mailing list. The chronology is totally different. The first message was posted to the web group on September 2 4:18am (PDT), the moment I posted it. The second message was posted to the web group on September 2 9:28am (PDT), the moment I posted it. The third message was posted to the web group on September 2 12:05pm (PDT), the moment I posted it. Therefore the web group is getting updated immediately, but the mailing list is not, or there is just a problem at my end. Only hearing if you see the same thing in your email records will tell me if the list messed up, or if it is my email.
Darren responded to my third posting on September 2 at 9:37pm (PST), "Hey Matt, I've sent some pics to you directly as I haven't been able to post any to the Origamiboats photos/files section for some time." The time is what the web group has recorded for that, I have no idea when Darren sent the message, however, it did not reach my inbox via the mailing list until September 5 at 5:10am (EDT) --- that is a delay of 52.5 hours. The private email Darren sent directly to my email, with the photos, it arrived to me September 3 14:46am (EDT) -- just 9 minutes after Darren's post appeared on the Origami web group. So to me it looks like the web group is updating immediately, however messages are coming through the mailing list with 20-59 hours delay, from time to time. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, September 3, 2018 12:37 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor well Hey Matt, I've sent some pics to you directly as I haven't been able to post any to the Origamiboats photos/files section for some time. Comments on your questions inserted below in bold. On 18-09-02 12:05 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Twice now the list has failed to post this post, but it took a different one I sent minutes later.... Sending it for the 3rd time Excellent suggestion Darren. (A piece of thick plastic watermain/sewer pipe as a chain locker, mounted vertically.) Some details to work out: - how and where to connect the bitter end of the hawser that keeps all the chain from paying out. I attached a line to then end of my chain long enough for the chain to run out on deck where it could be cut in an emergency. The line is strong enough to hold chain and anchor pulled to length, but weak enough that it couldn't pull out the reinforced deck in the area of the windlass. The end of the rope has a shackle on it that is too large to fit through the hole under the windlass. - a grating at the bottom to.keep the chain from laying in the sludge that is washed off. Sent a pic of this to you. I made a grate and a support for the bottom of the tube using the material from the tub itself. PVC pipe flattens to sheet stock really nicely if you cut a chunk lengthwise, heat it in an oven to just enough to soften it and then clamp it between some pieces of 3/4" plywood. With this flat stock I made a raised grate inside the tube, a support for the great, and a piece to seal the bottom of the tube. - a two-hand sized inspection hatch near the top to deal with the unimaginable tangle. I cut a window out of the pipe near deck level. Glued another section of pipe inside to make a lip inside the cutout opening for the cutout section to rest against, then reinstalled cutout window with some spring loaded over-centre latches. Before glueing it into place the I made a groove on the inside lip that accepts some round foam gasket that seems to seal well. - a wash spray nossle built in at the top for rinses of the chain with non-stinky water from outside the harbour/rainwater finish. I can spray the chain as it comesin. I also put a nozzle right on the bow roller, but I haven't had a chance to use it yet. There is no reason you can't spray water down the hawse-pipe from the windlass as well, just remember to pump it out before the water level reaches the inspection port. - a 2" pipe, connected to the side, below the grate, above the pump out, with a 90 pointed up, pipe up the outside of the locker, a valve, and a little computer fan to blow warm air down the pipe and up through the stack of chain and out the hawse pipe, as a vent, to dry the chain and vent the locker. I used 1" pipe as my pumpout, but I haven't made any allowances for drying. - also serves to warm the chain in cold water sailing to reduce the un-foamed locker's tendency to gather condensation like a toilet tank right after pulling in 100 pounds of cold chain. Any condensation would form on the chain, more rapidly heating it, dripping down into the pump out. If one takes steps to keep the chain clean and dry, it will stink a lot less and last a lot longer. If one has their chain in a sealed plastic pipe why not make the pipe into a washer-dryer, or at least an aerobic composter, like the head. The tube that makes my chain locker is sealed well enough from the rest of the boat that the chain can get pretty smelly without affecting the interiour. I'm sure keeping it dry would make it last much longer though. Darren | 35285|35251|2018-09-08 10:39:28|Darren Bos|Helical anchors| Matt and I have been talking offline and we thought some of you might be interested in the helical anchors we were discussing.Â For the amount of material they use, they offer very high holding power.Â For anyone who can build an Origami boat they would be simple and cheap to make.Â Here is a commercial example that gives you all the info you wouldÂ need to make your own.Â There are times when a smaller round-shaft version can make a handy point for a shore line, an handful in bilge might be used to tie into a mangrove when there is a storm coming.Â The larger versions would make an inexpensive mooring.Â | 35286|35251|2018-09-08 18:13:56|brentswain38|Re: Helical anchors|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :An Alberta farmer, who had built on of my 36 twin keelers, had a drying moorage. After having his boat drag a few times, he took a section of grain auger, welded a loop on top, and simply screwed it into the hard sand and mud. That was years ago, and he never dragged again. Matt and I have been talking offline and we thought some of you might be interested in the helical anchors we were discussing. For the amount of material they use, they offer very high holding power. For anyone who can build an Origami boat they would be simple and cheap to make. Here is a commercial example that gives you all the info you would need to make your own. There are times when a smaller round-shaft version can make a handy point for a shore line, an handful in bilge might be used to tie into a mangrove when there is a storm coming. The larger versions would make an inexpensive mooring. | 35287|35251|2018-09-09 00:35:51|opuspaul|Re: Helical anchors|They put helical moorings in Savusavu. They are great and really hold but not foolproof since they are only as good as the attachment/shackles at the top. If I remember right, one of them failed when a swivel or shackle got twisted and bent at the top. They will still need to be removed and checked once in awhile and need inspection. I know of one boat that kept one in their bilge to use as a cyclone mooring/anchor. The plan was to screw it in by hand while diving using a long T bar but I don't know if they ever used it. I don't think one size fits all. You need to match the number of screws and the length or depth to the type of bottom. Putting one in might be tricky but if I was in a place with few hurricane holes like Tonga for the cyclone season I might put one in while the weather is good so it would be ready when needed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxNIZ10L_J4You don't normally need special anchors if nestled in the mangroves. The roots of the larger trees are good enough. Just tie a bunch of lines in to them to spread the load. A large fluke anchor like a Danforth or fortress will really dig deep into the mud. You won't be swinging around so you can really crank them in deep. In a dense mangrove, you are very sheltered and won't feel much wind at deck level. The following videos show the process. In Fiji, the mangroves are great, you can get in really deep, but you need to get in early to get your spot before the bigger cruise boats come in and close it off with their large lines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4PdWV9T1jIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ZXROtzlyA| 35288|35288|2018-09-09 18:35:18|aguysailing|zincs|Local supplier advertises zincs with aluminum tabs or steel tabs.. the latter more $. Any probs with going with aluminum tabs? As for the main body of the zinc is the preference now for aluminum or zinc?.... thanks| 35289|35288|2018-09-09 20:09:44|aguysailing|Re: zincs|... saw this on line."Many sailors mistakenly perceive these especially â€œlong-livedâ€ zincs as effective. In reality, theyâ€™re anything but; even where anodes are still present, they provide no anodic protection at all. An anode that lasts for an inordinately long time probably isnâ€™t working for any number of reasons, calcareous coating or otherwise. Aluminum anodes, alternatively, offer several advantages. Theyâ€™re immune to the calcareous coating menace and are therefore well suited for use in seawater, as well as brackish and fresh water. Aluminum anodes also pack more of a punch; they either last longer than zinc anodes of the same weight, or provide the same protection as zinc in a lighter package. Surprisingly, aluminum anodes are often no more costly than zinc ones. Also, because most are cadmium-free, aluminum anodes are less of a hazard to the marine environment. So, regardless of what a diver, boatyard manager or other industry pro tells you, there are several advantages, and no drawbacks, to switching to aluminum anodes".| 35290|35288|2018-09-10 12:01:11|Matt Malone|Re: zincs| Except the issue of maintaining electrical contact with aluminium. This is nearly solved technology in electrical distribution, and in home wiring in ideal circumstances with appropriate preparation and paste to protect contacts. The marine environment is different, more harsh. Provided there is good contact, and anode remaining, there will be protection. Someone mentioned a meter, a measurement device, that measures the adequacy of protection. http://www.caltechindia.com/Digital-CP-Multimeter.htm I am guessing something like an orp meter should work as well. I would sooner trust an objective measurement than sales literature or word of mouth, the the later will help you test a far smaller set of things, and probably spend less money getting something that checks out. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 8:09:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zincs ... saw this on line. "Many sailors mistakenly perceive these especially â€œlong-livedâ€ zincs as effective. In reality, theyâ€™re anything but; even where anodes are still present, they provide no anodic protection at all. An anode that lasts for an inordinately long time probably isnâ€™t working for any number of reasons, calcareous coating or otherwise. Aluminum anodes, alternatively, offer several advantages. Theyâ€™re immune to the calcareous coating menace and are therefore well suited for use in seawater, as well as brackish and fresh water. Aluminum anodes also pack more of a punch; they either last longer than zinc anodes of the same weight, or provide the same protection as zinc in a lighter package. Surprisingly, aluminum anodes are often no more costly than zinc ones. Also, because most are cadmium-free, aluminum anodes are less of a hazard to the marine environment. So, regardless of what a diver, boatyard manager or other industry pro tells you, there are several advantages, and no drawbacks, to switching to aluminum anodes". | 35291|35288|2018-09-10 17:05:27|brentswain38|Re: zincs|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I have used zincs until they fell off the straps, and they gave good protection until they did. It is when they don't corrode at all, that you have no connection. That is why I put a bit of stainless weld bead around the bolt holes, and tack one corner of the strap on, when the opportunity arrives. Nice when some throw them away, for us too cheap to buy new ones, when they still have years of life in them. I have been told that, if you go aluminium you have to go all aluminium. I don't necessarily buy that, as the zinc should protect both the aluminium and steel, and the zinc will simply go a bit faster, protecting the auluminium, and the steel, at the same time, until the zinc is gone.No ham done.If I were buying all new anodes, I would definitely go aluminium.... saw this on line."Many sailors mistakenly perceive these especially â€œlong-livedâ€ zincs as effective. In reality, theyâ€™re anything but; even where anodes are still present, they provide no anodic protection at all. An anode that lasts for an inordinately long time probably isnâ€™t working for any number of reasons, calcareous coating or otherwise.Aluminum anodes, alternatively, offer several advantages. Theyâ€™re immune to the calcareous coating menace and are therefore well suited for use in seawater, as well as brackish and fresh water. Aluminum anodes also pack more of a punch; they either last longer than zinc anodes of the same weight, or provide the same protection as zinc in a lighter package.Surprisingly, aluminum anodes are often no more costly than zinc ones. Also, because most are cadmium-free, aluminum anodes are less of a hazard to the marine environment. So, regardless of what a diver, boatyard manager or other industry pro tells you, there are several advantages, and no drawbacks, to switching to aluminum anodes".| 35292|35288|2018-09-10 17:38:36|opuspaul|Re: zincs|I would use steel. I mount mine with bolts. It is probably not necessary but if I can, I place a small tack with the welder on the head nut to ensure a good electrical bond. If you need to change them later and don't have access to a welder, you can still file or grind off the tack and back the nuts off.We will see if this message makes it through....Yahoo is eating my posts lately.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Local supplier advertises zincs with aluminum tabs or steel tabs.. the latter more $. Any probs with going with aluminum tabs? As for the main body of the zinc is the preference now for aluminum or zinc?.... thanks| 35293|35288|2018-09-10 18:28:56|Matt Malone|Re: zincs| I really like 7018 to tack nuts on. It is hard but does not penetrate. Less trouble to file later. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, September 10, 18:19 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zincs To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I would use steel. I mount mine with bolts. It is probably not necessary but if I can, I place a small tack with the welder on the head nut to ensure a good electrical bond. If you need to change them later and don't have access to a welder, you can still file or grind off the tack and back the nuts off. We will see if this message makes it through....Yahoo is eating my posts lately. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Local supplier advertises zincs with aluminum tabs or steel tabs.. the latter more $. Any probs with going with aluminum tabs? As for the main body of the zinc is the preference now for aluminum or zinc? .... thanks | 35294|35288|2018-09-10 21:42:06|brentswain38|Re: zincs|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Like discussing metal boats on general cruising sites, a huge amount of what is online is totally made up bullshit,by people who know very little about the subject, but simply swarm and outnumber those who do. Except the issue of maintaining electrical contact with aluminium. This is nearly solved technology in electrical distribution, and in home wiring in ideal circumstances with appropriate preparation and paste to protect contacts. The marine environment is different, more harsh. Provided there is good contact, and anode remaining, there will be protection. Someone mentioned a meter, a measurement device, that measures the adequacy of protection. http://www.caltechindia.com/Digital-CP-Multimeter.htm I am guessing something like an orp meter should work as well. I would sooner trust an objective measurement than sales literature or word of mouth, the the later will help you test a far smaller set of things, and probably spend less money getting something that checks out. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 8:09:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zincs ... saw this on line."Many sailors mistakenly perceive these especially â€œlong-livedâ€ zincs as effective. In reality, theyâ€™re anything but; even where anodes are still present, they provide no anodic protection at all. An anode that lasts for an inordinately long time probably isnâ€™t working for any number of reasons, calcareous coating or otherwise.Aluminum anodes, alternatively, offer several advantages. Theyâ€™re immune to the calcareous coating menace and are therefore well suited for use in seawater, as well as brackish and fresh water. Aluminum anodes also pack more of a punch; they either last longer than zinc anodes of the same weight, or provide the same protection as zinc in a lighter package.Surprisingly, aluminum anodes are often no more costly than zinc ones. Also, because most are cadmium-free, aluminum anodes are less of a hazard to the marine environment. So, regardless of what a diver, boatyard manager or other industry pro tells you, there are several advantages, and no drawbacks, to switching to aluminum anodes".#ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ads {margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 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#ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-974966406 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003 #ygrps-yiv-974966406ygrps-yiv-1633789003ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 35295|35288|2018-09-10 23:07:48|Shawn Green|Re: zincs|I just assume that the steel tabbed onesÂ are intended for steel boats, and that the aluminum ones are intended for Alu boats. Im not certain it would make any difference in the world. they all started as weld on zincs before someone drilled a hole in them.As an aside, is anyone interested in moving this group somewhere else?, such as facebook or even reddit? this yahoo thing is cumbersome and often just plain doesn't work properly.| 35296|35288|2018-09-11 08:22:30|brentswain38|Re: zincs|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I am about to find out, as I have an aluminium tab one to bolt on my rudder. Cant see it doing any harm, as the aluminium will protect steel a bit, when the zinc ifs gone. A poor electrical connection could be the only negative,but with our twin keelers dry much of the time, it is easy to keep an eye on it, and make changes if necessary. Makes it up to us to do the experimenting.Local supplier advertises zincs with aluminum tabs or steel tabs.. the latter more $. Any probs with going with aluminum tabs? As for the main body of the zinc is the preference now for aluminum or zinc?.... thanks| 35297|35251|2018-09-11 09:18:13|Matt Malone|Re: Helical anchors| #ygrps-yiv-271989388 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I had not seen that video of how the helical anchor was driven. - two parts driven separately. - power unit with some sort of jack leg and scuba gear used... possibly just to show people what is happening underwater. - not driven below the surface of the bottom. - rope all the way to the head of the anchor, no chain. Mooring to mangroves with lots of ropes is a proven method. The process is very tedious but as the video explains, the second best thing to being on land. After seeing some 30' boats tossed around in parking lots by hurricanes (right across the road from where sand washed into the second story of building by waves and storm surge) I am convinced that not just *any* place on land is more secure than a well-planned mooring. The best way to spread the load over many points is to use many long stretchy ropes, tightened equally. Their springiness keeps the load reasonably balanced between tie-offs despite small variations in how they are tied off. This way all the tie-off points share the load, making an extremely secure mooring. Worst case (like another boat drifts into your steel boat) either all your lines hold, or possibly, the weakest tie-off point breaks, putting more load on the rest, and possibly another breaks, and you get a zipper effect -- very unlikely but a possible outcome of assuring all tie-offs are equally loaded. Still this is the strongest mooring because the strength of the tie off points add most effectively. The way the video shows, they are using fewer long ropes and then multiple tie-offs with what look like short stiff ropes. The springiness of the mangrove roots themselves is now the important load balance between the short ropes to get the strongest moor. Tying one rope a few millimeters tighter can leave that root carrying a lot more load, and now the strengths of the tie-offs are not adding as effectively. Worst case, the moor is weaker (lower maximum load), but more robust (if we assume the total number of roots tied-off to is greater) as one would have to break a lot more roots to come completely free. Tedious to get something secure, and much depends on the details of equalizing the rope tightening that was not well documented in the video. I am looking at his secondary anchor in the video. In another video, he lifts his secondary anchor effortlessly with one hand. I see great value in a light, easily-deployed anchor as a key element in some situations (like his video of the Bahamian mooring vs a predictable current), but not in mangrove mooring for a storm. The Ronca is his primary anchor, and everyone will use their primary, that is a given, likely to start the process. When it comes time to pull a secondary anchor out, sorry, but the way that helical anchor went into the bottom, that was "convincing". One spends all day climbing tediously through mangroves tying ropes and for the other half of the mooring, a secondary anchor one can lift with one hand is a credible part? If I understood correctly, he had one Ronca and 2 light secondary anchors at one end, and more than a dozen mangrove roots at the other. It seems unbalanced, the anchor side seems far inferior in rootedness. It is the anchor side that keeps one out of the mangroves. I would be inclined to invest the sweat and hours in screwing in a helical anchor if I am tying off to so many mangroves. I may have a light secondary anchor in the bilge, and I would set it, after screwing in the helical which I will definitely have in the bilge. The video shows he was successful. The video shows, but does not explain why, others were not successful. The video did not make clear, if the wind had been stronger, would he have been successful? On the mangrove side, no doubt he had more little ropes and a thousand more roots to tie off to -- there was room for expansion. On the anchor side, it is not at all clear he had any anchors left undeployed. A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it". Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 01:18 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Helical anchors To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com They put helical moorings in Savusavu. They are great and really hold but not foolproof since they are only as good as the attachment/shackles at the top. If I remember right, one of them failed when a swivel or shackle got twisted and bent at the top. They will still need to be removed and checked once in awhile and need inspection. I know of one boat that kept one in their bilge to use as a cyclone mooring/anchor. The plan was to screw it in by hand while diving using a long T bar but I don't know if they ever used it. I don't think one size fits all. You need to match the number of screws and the length or depth to the type of bottom. Putting one in might be tricky but if I was in a place with few hurricane holes like Tonga for the cyclone season I might put one in while the weather is good so it would be ready when needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxNIZ10L_J4 You don't normally need special anchors if nestled in the mangroves. The roots of the larger trees are good enough. Just tie a bunch of lines in to them to spread the load. A large fluke anchor like a Danforth or fortress will really dig deep into the mud. You won't be swinging around so you can really crank them in deep. In a dense mangrove, you are very sheltered and won't feel much wind at deck level. The following videos show the process. In Fiji, the mangroves are great, you can get in really deep, but you need to get in early to get your spot before the bigger cruise boats come in and close it off with their large lines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4PdWV9T1jI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ZXROtzlyA | 35298|35288|2018-09-11 10:29:48|Darren Bos|Re: zincs| The aluminum anodes look attractive and I've considered upgrading to them.Â In a place like coastal BC where you can often have a bunch of fresh/brackish water floating on the salt, the lack of calcareous fouling seems to be an advantage.Â Aluminum anodes are more reactive than zinc anodes, so if you were close to being overprotected with zinc, switching to aluminum might push you over the limit.Â A lot of epoxy-coated metal boats successfully use levels of zinc that are at or below traditional recommendations.Â In this case, switching to aluminum is unlikely to cause trouble.Â In places where there are a lot of boats in marinas, the aluminum anodes also have the benefit of not having the toxic cadmium found in zinc anodes.Â Because most boats are found in crowded marinas, I suspect that zinc anodes will eventually go the way of tin-based antifouling.Â I think the reason you can't mix zinc and aluminum anodes is that the zinc is more noble than the aluminum anode (aluminum anodes are actually an aluminum indium alloy and are thus more reactive than marine aluminum alloys and zinc anodes).Â So, if you have a mix underwater your aluminum anodes would get eaten first (and faster than ifÂ you had only aluminum anodes) and you would have a small current running through the hull.Â Depending on the placement of your anodes you could end up with some areas of the hull under protected if you mix anodes. On 18-09-10 02:04 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I have used zincs until they fell off the straps, and theyÂ gave good protection until they did. ItÂ is when they don't corrode at all, that you have no connection. That is why I put a bit of stainless weld bead around the bolt holes, and tack one corner of theÂ strap on, when the opportunity arrives. Nice whenÂ some throw them away, for us too cheap to buy new ones, when they stillÂ have years of life in them. I have been told that, if you go aluminium you have to go all aluminium. I don't necessarily buy that,Â as the zinc shouldÂ protectÂ both the aluminium and steel,Â and the zinc will simply go a bit faster, protecting the auluminium, and the steel, at the same time, until the zinc is gone.No ham done .If I were buying all new anodes, I would definitely go aluminium. ... saw this on line. "Many sailors mistakenly perceive these especially â€œlong-livedâ€ zincs as effective. In reality, theyâ€™re anything but; even where anodes are still present, they provide no anodic protection at all. An anode that lasts for an inordinately long time probably isnâ€™t working for any number of reasons, calcareous coating or otherwise. Aluminum anodes, alternatively, offer several advantages. Theyâ€™re immune to the calcareous coating menace and are therefore well suited for use in seawater, as well as brackish and fresh water. Aluminum anodes also pack more of a punch; they either last longer than zinc anodes of the same weight, or provide the same protection as zinc in a lighter package. Surprisingly, aluminum anodes are often no more costly than zinc ones. Also, because most are cadmium-free, aluminum anodes are less of a hazard to the marine environment. So, regardless of what a diver, boatyard manager or other industry pro tells you, there are several advantages, and no drawbacks, to switching to aluminum anodes". | 35299|35251|2018-09-11 14:27:11|a.sobriquet|Re: Helical anchors|How would you brace yourself to screw in a helical anchor by hand? You can't do if from a dinghy -- the dinghy would just spin around. And I think you couldn't do it as a (free? snorkel? scuba?) diver either, as you wouldn't "weigh" enough to hold you firmly to the sea floor?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it". Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt | 35300|35251|2018-09-11 15:45:57|Darren Bos|Re: Helical anchors| A smaller helical anchor could be put in a by a diver.Â You'd need scuba or a hookah diving rig to do this.Â You'd start it by hand with a shorter lever and then switch to a much longer lever to drive it home.Â Matt and I were also talking about how to drive the larger helical anchors.Â For that you would need at least three anchors to hold the boat in place.Â Then, you also need enough sections of rigid tube to connect to the anchor.Â The company I linked to uses hydraulics to drive in the helical anchors.Â But, for a single one you could likely get by with a ratcheting T-head, long levers and a couple of guys.Â While you're driving-in the helical anchor, the forces on the three anchors holding the boat in place are fairly low, so you don't need big anchors to hold the boat in place.Â However, the sections of pipe required to connect to the helical anchor would be a pain to carry along.Â So, if your boat is under 30ft then you could probably set up a mooring or storm anchor fairly quickly by diving.Â For boats over 40', it might still be worth the trouble if you were setting up mooring and could get the tube/pipe needed to drive the anchor locally. On 18-09-11 11:11 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â How would you brace yourself to screw in a helical anchor by hand? You can't do if from a dinghy -- the dinghy would just spin around. And I think you couldn't do it as a (free? snorkel? scuba?) diver either, as you wouldn't "weigh" enough to hold you firmly to the sea floor? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it".Â Â Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt | 35301|35251|2018-09-11 16:04:40|Matt Malone|Re: Helical anchors| Darren and I discussed that. 4 ropes on the boat: - one bow line to a regular anchor straight forward - one bow line to starboard to a regular anchor, - one very long line straight off the stern to a mangrove - very long so eventual location of boat is closer to mangroves, - one line from the aft straight to port to an anchor, another boat already moored, or mangrove. On a 40 foot boat, 30 pounds load on the aft-port and bow-starboard lines gives you 1,200 foot pounds of torque on your anchor driver somewhere amidships. That is enough to liquorice the steel stem of the anchor and is nothing for load on either the lines or even lunch anchors for a 40 foot boat. That is 1,200 foot pounds reacted (equal and opposite) using the mechanical advantage of the length of the boat. How is 1,200 foot pounds applied? Hydraulics or a very long lever. I like a home made ratchetting box wrench with the box in the middle. 2 men heaving 100 pounds on either end of a 12 foot wrench is 1,200 foot pounds. I suspect these anchors are much easier to drive than that. 2 men can hold a post hole auger. Imagine driving the anchor amid-ships on the starboard side. A single man might tie a bowline around the steel square section used to drive the anchor run back to the stern (to react 100 pounds) and some smaller breast lines to keep it from falling away from the boat, then walk a 12 foot lever from aft forward to give the torque, like an old ships capstan. Walk back to ratchet. Or if one already had hydraulics, use the engine and a spare hydraulic motor. Yes it requires thinking ahead, and some pieces of steel made and stowed, but imagine the value. One has to stow a couple 6 foot sections of drive tube and one or two 6 foot sections of lever bar. The box ratchet would be a little welding job. Why not stow only one auger anchor? I think a chain one could swim down to tie a loop around a boulder is the only more-compact mooring-level anchor, if one can find a single boulder. Matt From: a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 14:30 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Helical anchors To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com How would you brace yourself to screw in a helical anchor by hand? You can't do if from a dinghy -- the dinghy would just spin around. And I think you couldn't do it as a (free? snorkel? scuba?) diver either, as you wouldn't "weigh" enough to hold you firmly to the sea floor? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it". Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt | 35302|35288|2018-09-11 16:21:03|a.sobriquet|Yahoo, Facebook, Reddit|I'll pass on Facebook. Facebook may be more stable then Yahoo, but I don't like their mining of personal data. Though I suppose Yahoo does the same, though perhaps on a smaller scale.Don't know much about Reddit. Why do you think it's better than Yahoo for this group?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :...As an aside, is anyone interested in moving this group somewhere else?, such as facebook or even reddit? this yahoo thing is cumbersome and often just plain doesn't work properly.| 35303|35251|2018-09-11 17:45:45|jpronk1|Re: Helical anchors|I was thinking the same thing! How would you do that under water? I have a hard enough time retrieving dishes, pot lids and BBQ parts free diving! I tried once to free our snagged anchor in brackish water once, I couldnâ€™t see my hand in front of my face! Then my wife started yelling at me to get out of the water. Seams the guide book said it was a great spot to see alligators! If you had SCUBA gear could you brace your self against something or use a very heavy weight belt? Could you put out a bow and stern anchor and do it with a long handle? I have not been able to look at or post photos for over two years now? Canâ€™t access the page as a member anymore? Trying to start back at my build! James Pronk Sent from my iPhone| 35304|35251|2018-09-11 18:12:23|opuspaul|Re: Helical anchors|I don't think you could ever do it free diving. I know people have done it with scuba and a T bar but it is not easy. You need to be able to brace yourself on the bottom and it is probably easier with two people. The hydraulic drive they use for installation must vibrate/hammer the helix around since the diver in the video doesn't seem to use much effort to hold it. http://www.alphamarineinstallations.com/index.html White coral sand is probably easiest when it comes to visibility.......mud would get stirred up and be by feel.Compared to putting in a helical anchor, putting a long steel cable with a couple of shackles around a large rock or coral head is relatively easy. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I was thinking the same thing! How would you do that under water? I have a hard enough time retrieving dishes, pot lids and BBQ parts free diving! I tried once to free our snagged anchor in brackish water once, I couldnâ€™t see my hand in front of my face! Then my wife started yelling at me to get out of the water. Seams the guide book said it was a great spot to see alligators! If you had SCUBA gear could you brace your self against something or use a very heavy weight belt? Could you put out a bow and stern anchor and do it with a long handle? I have not been able to look at or post photos for over two years now? Canâ€™t access the page as a member anymore? Trying to start back at my build! James Pronk Sent from my iPhone| 35305|35251|2018-09-11 20:42:31|Matt Malone|Re: Helical anchors| Well, I answered in detail. Lets see if the message comes through. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 20:27 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Helical anchors To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I don't think you could ever do it free diving. I know people have done it with scuba and a T bar but it is not easy. You need to be able to brace yourself on the bottom and it is probably easier with two people. The hydraulic drive they use for installation must vibrate/hammer the helix around since the diver in the video doesn't seem to use much effort to hold it. http://www.alphamarineinstallations.com/index.html White coral sand is probably easiest when it comes to visibility.......mud would get stirred up and be by feel. Compared to putting in a helical anchor, putting a long steel cable with a couple of shackles around a large rock or coral head is relatively easy. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I was thinking the same thing! How would you do that under water? I have a hard enough time retrieving dishes, pot lids and BBQ parts free diving! I tried once to free our snagged anchor in brackish water once, I couldnâ€™t see my hand in front of my face! Then my wife started yelling at me to get out of the water. Seams the guide book said it was a great spot to see alligators! If you had SCUBA gear could you brace your self against something or use a very heavy weight belt? Could you put out a bow and stern anchor and do it with a long handle? I have not been able to look at or post photos for over two years now? Canâ€™t access the page as a member anymore? Trying to start back at my build! James Pronk Sent from my iPhone | 35306|35251|2018-09-11 20:43:34|Matt Malone|Re: Helical anchors| Trying again... From: Matt Malone Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 16:04 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Helical anchors To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Darren and I discussed that. 4 ropes on the boat: - one bow line to a regular anchor straight forward - one bow line to starboard to a regular anchor, - one very long line straight off the stern to a mangrove - very long so eventual location of boat is closer to mangroves, - one line from the aft straight to port to an anchor, another boat already moored, or mangrove. On a 40 foot boat, 30 pounds load on the aft-port and bow-starboard lines gives you 1,200 foot pounds of torque on your anchor driver somewhere amidships. That is enough to liquorice the steel stem of the anchor and is nothing for load on either the lines or even lunch anchors for a 40 foot boat. That is 1,200 foot pounds reacted (equal and opposite) using the mechanical advantage of the length of the boat. How is 1,200 foot pounds applied? Hydraulics or a very long lever. I like a home made ratchetting box wrench with the box in the middle. 2 men heaving 100 pounds on either end of a 12 foot wrench is 1,200 foot pounds. I suspect these anchors are much easier to drive than that. 2 men can hold a post hole auger. Imagine driving the anchor amid-ships on the starboard side. A single man might tie a bowline around the steel square section used to drive the anchor run back to the stern (to react 100 pounds) and some smaller breast lines to keep it from falling away from the boat, then walk a 12 foot lever from aft forward to give the torque, like an old ships capstan. Walk back to ratchet. Or if one already had hydraulics, use the engine and a spare hydraulic motor. Yes it requires thinking ahead, and some pieces of steel made and stowed, but imagine the value. One has to stow a couple 6 foot sections of drive tube and one or two 6 foot sections of lever bar. The box ratchet would be a little welding job. Why not stow only one auger anchor? I think a chain one could swim down to tie a loop around a boulder is the only more-compact mooring-level anchor, if one can find a single boulder. Matt From: a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 14:30 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Helical anchors To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com How would you brace yourself to screw in a helical anchor by hand? You can't do if from a dinghy -- the dinghy would just spin around. And I think you couldn't do it as a (free? snorkel? scuba?) diver either, as you wouldn't "weigh" enough to hold you firmly to the sea floor? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it". Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt | 35307|35288|2018-09-12 15:58:07|aguysailing|Re: zincs|I phoned the Cdn manufacturer of anodes... said exactly that... aluminum straps for alum boats and steel for steel..Apparently zince anodes have been banned in many US states and soon here.| 35308|35288|2018-09-12 16:12:44|Matt Malone|Re: zincs| #ygrps-yiv-1821757214 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I have read about magnesium anodes as being the least noble, most quickly dissolved, best protecting anodes there are. Given that magnesium is: - a significant, naturally-occurring part of seawater and therefore there is no environmental concern at all in seawater, and - magnesium can be extracted from sea water and should not be too expensive for lumps of it, anywhere, https://www.westmarine.com/buy/martyr--bolt-on-magnesium-medium-hull-anode-2-65-x-5-75-x-0-75--17306325?recordNum=29 This one is bolt on. It seems that welding a couple of stubby stainless steel bolts head-first onto the hull would be very simple -- just tighten the nuts from time to time to make sure they bite the anode. I have to ask myself, what is the downside of magnesium "zincs" for a boat ? Is there any adverse effect to protection that is too good? It would seem in a tidal area, the Swain twin keelers would be ideal for magnesium because, even if they corrode away quickly, they could be replaced easily. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 2:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zincs I phoned the Cdn manufacturer of anodes... said exactly that... aluminum straps for alum boats and steel for steel.. Apparently zince anodes have been banned in many US states and soon here. | 35309|35288|2018-09-12 17:56:36|opuspaul|Re: zincs|I wouldn't overthink it. Zinc, Aluminum, Magnesium....I really wouldn't care as long as they are electrically bonded to the hull.| 35310|35288|2018-09-12 19:37:19|Brian Stannard|Re: zincs|Magnesium is an anode for fresh water, not salt or brackish water. Would only last a week or 2 in salt water and may cause adjacent paint to bubble as they are so active. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:25 PM Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I have read about magnesium anodes as being the least noble, most quickly dissolved, best protecting anodes there are.Â Â Given that magnesium is: Â - a significant, naturally-occurring part of seawater and therefore there is no environmental concern at all in seawater, and Â - magnesium can be extracted from sea water and should not be too expensive for lumps of it, anywhere, https://www.westmarine.com/buy/martyr--bolt-on-magnesium-medium-hull-anode-2-65-x-5-75-x-0-75--17306325?recordNum=29 This one is bolt on.Â It seems that welding a couple of stubby stainless steel bolts head-first onto the hull would be very simple -- just tighten the nuts from time to time to make sure they bite the anode.Â Â I have to ask myself, what is the downside of magnesium "zincs" for a boat ? Â Is there any adverse effect to protection that is too good?Â Â It would seem in a tidal area, the Swain twin keelers would be ideal for magnesium because, even if they corrode away quickly, they could be replaced easily.Â Â Matt Â From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 2:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zincs Â Â I phoned the Cdn manufacturer of anodes... said exactly that... aluminum straps for alum boats and steel for steel.. Apparently zince anodes have been banned in many US states and soon here. -- CheersBrian | 35311|35251|2018-09-13 02:42:06|brentswain38|Re: Helical anchors|Us twin keelers in drying anchorages can simply do it at low tide.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A smaller helical anchor could be put in a by a diver. You'd need scuba or a hookah diving rig to do this. You'd start it by hand with a shorter lever and then switch to a much longer lever to drive it home. Matt and I were also talking about how to drive the larger helical anchors. For that you would need at least three anchors to hold the boat in place. Then, you also need enough sections of rigid tube to connect to the anchor. The company I linked to uses hydraulics to drive in the helical anchors. But, for a single one you could likely get by with a ratcheting T-head, long levers and a couple of guys. While you're driving-in the helical anchor, the forces on the three anchors holding the boat in place are fairly low, so you don't need big anchors to hold the boat in place. However, the sections of pipe required to connect to the helical anchor would be a pain to carry along. So, if your boat is under 30ft then you could probably set up a mooring or storm anchor fairly quickly by diving. For boats over 40', it might still be worth the trouble if you were setting up mooring and could get the tube/pipe needed to drive the anchor locally. On 18-09-11 11:11 AM, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote: How would you brace yourself to screw in a helical anchor by hand? You can't do if from a dinghy -- the dinghy would just spin around. And I think you couldn't do it as a (free? snorkel? scuba?) diver either, as you wouldn't "weigh" enough to hold you firmly to the sea floor? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it". Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make.Matt #ygrps-yiv-1456005070 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1456005070 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1456005070 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1456005070 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1456005070 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658 #ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ad { padding:0 0;} 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#ygrps-yiv-1456005070ygrps-yiv-37417658ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 35312|35251|2018-09-13 10:09:27|Hannu Venermo|Re: Helical anchors| I like the idea conceptually. As I See It .. It is a hard-pile fixed pilon, for anchoring against. For normal moorage, why bother ? For hurricanes .. It seems an excellent solution technically one can implement with scuba and time and only a few $$ in stuff. But a 40 foot boat in such conditions (hurricane, typhoon) exerts tremendous peak impact loads, jerks, via heavy wind pressure, ongoing water/current/air pressure, and swell. Imho 99% of the envisioned use cases have 10-50x higher loads than envisioned in real life in/at such conditions. A 10 metric ton yacht can easily have 40 tons of peak loads due to waves, surge, and storm effects. On 11/09/2018 20:11, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote: ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it".Â Â Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 35313|35288|2018-09-13 11:06:29|Darren Bos|Re: zincs| As I understand it, magnesium anodes could lead to over-protection of the hull in salt water.Â Effectively this means that too much current is created by the anode system.Â For a metal boat this can mean loss of your underwater epoxy/paint coatings though hydrogen or alkali production.Â If you go to this boatdesign.net forum thread and scroll partway down the page you'll find a link to "Galvanics.doc",Â this was one of the better resources I found when trying to decide how many and what type of anodes to put on my hull.Â It also seems like a silver-silver/chloride reference cell would be a good investment to check you have the anodes right to start and as an easy way to check that all is well in the future.Â It seems to me it might be possible to make your own half cell reference electrode.Â The problem with regular electrodes is that they're filled with their own electrolyte and thus have a limited lifespan.Â I've wondered if you couldn't just hang a bit of titanium from some stainless fishing leader and have your own reference electrode.Â As I haven't launched my boat yet, I haven't got around to trying it.Â I think the two disadvantages are that you would need to calculate the voltage potential you want rather than just relying on the tables that are made for silver-silver chloride electrodes.Â Also, the "electrolyte" your electrode would be using is seawater and that will change as you move from brackish coastal to saltwater, or from the poles to the equator.Â Maybe someone with more chemistry knowledge can set me straight.Â The advantage of this DIY electrode would be that it is cheap to make and last forever. Darren On 18-09-12 01:12 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I have read about magnesium anodes as being the least noble, most quickly dissolved, best protecting anodes there are.Â Â Given that magnesium is: Â - a significant, naturally-occurring part of seawater and therefore there is no environmental concern at all in seawater, and Â - magnesium can be extracted from sea water and should not be too expensive for lumps of it, anywhere, https://www.westmarine.com/buy/martyr--bolt-on-magnesium-medium-hull-anode-2-65-x-5-75-x-0-75--17306325?recordNum=29 This one is bolt on.Â It seems that welding a couple of stubby stainless steel bolts head-first onto the hull would be very simple -- just tighten the nuts from time to time to make sure they bite the anode.Â Â I have to ask myself, what is the downside of magnesium "zincs" for a boat ? Â Is there any adverse effect to protection that is too good?Â Â It would seem in a tidal area, the Swain twin keelers would be ideal for magnesium because, even if they corrode away quickly, they could be replaced easily.Â Â Matt | 35314|35251|2018-09-13 18:48:53|brentswain38|Re: Helical anchors|At Fanning Island, with a strong trade wind across the lagoon, and me tied to a sunken tug, with 3/4 inc polyester braid , the line was snubbing hard. I put one 30 lb kellet on,and it still snubbed . A second 30 lb kellet helped a bit , but a big orange scotsman buoy between the last one and my boat ,stopped the snubbing completely.| 35315|35288|2018-09-13 18:56:14|brentswain38|Re: zincs|Years ago, there was an article in Metal Boat Quarterly, on how to build your own measurement device. It consisted of a one volt, volt meter hooked up to the hull on one side, and to a 3/8th inch bronze bolt, running thru, but insulated from the hull, just the head exposed, outside, below the waterline.It was suggested that a reading of 3/4 of a volt was about right.Sounds simple enough. It will, at any rate, give you some measurement of how electrically hot your mooring spot is.| 35316|35251|2018-09-13 19:44:50|Matt Malone|Re: Helical anchors| Shock loading seems like a problem with all moorings. Brent mentioned kettles and buoys. I have heard of hydrodynamic objects on the line to create drag and absorb boat energy before it hits the end of the line. The shock loads are inversely proportional to the stiffness of the line and proportional to the square of boat velocity when it hits the end. Step one is a heavy nylon rode for its stretchiness. I prefer to mention novel things though I would certainly try tried and proven methods first. The most novel one is a 16" to 2 foot square of inch-thick plywood. It is weighted to sink easily in an edge-on orientation. When pulled upward, the plywood is unstable, turns flat to the force, wasting energy being dragged up from the bottom, stirring water all the way. Located like a kettle, or with a kettle to sink the plywood plate, the geometry as the rope straightens is non-linear. The differential movement of the plate is infinite as the rope comes straight. If unlimited energy were available, the plywood will be accelerated so quickly at the end to cavitate the water, a load of over 14 psi. On a 16 by 16 plate, that is about 2.75 tons. Imagine a 2.75 ton kettle, or a buoy 5 feet in diameter. Still, this is like a naturally stiffening snubber, very effective at reducing the final shock speed of the boat. But realistically, if the plate is in 20 feet of water and is hauled to the surface, it is going to slow the boat long before cavitating. I have to believe that moorings are safer than anchors in a hurricane hole without breaking waves, and there are ways to deal with shock loads. I would like to hear any other proven methods. Matt From: Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 13:39 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Helical anchors To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com I like the idea conceptually. As I See It .. It is a hard-pile fixed pilon, for anchoring against. For normal moorage, why bother ? For hurricanes .. It seems an excellent solution technically one can implement with scuba and time and only a few $$ in stuff. But a 40 foot boat in such conditions (hurricane, typhoon) exerts tremendous peak impact loads, jerks, via heavy wind pressure, ongoing water/current/air pressure, and swell. Imho 99% of the envisioned use cases have 10-50x higher loads than envisioned in real life in/at such conditions. A 10 metric ton yacht can easily have 40 tons of peak loads due to waves, surge, and storm effects. On 11/09/2018 20:11, a.sobriquet@... [origamiboats] wrote: ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ...A helical anchor in the bilge, and a T wrench and pipe to drive it just seems "worth it". Particularly since it appears a helical anchor might not be that hard to make. Matt -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 35317|35288|2018-09-13 22:17:25|brentswain38|Re: Yahoo, Facebook, Reddit|If it aint broke don't fix it.Then there is the govt versionIf it aint broke ,fix it until it is broke. Metal boat society sold their site to facebook,and it went off line for a long time, arbitrarily ,until the efforts and lobbying of many people, got them around to putting it back online , with lots of work from a lot of people. They can shut us down on a whim, any time. They can also allow it to be swamped by extremely ignorant people, like the Bob Perry troll gang who scour the internet, to kill any suggestion of innovation, and swamp any site Perry doesn't like, with made up lies and distortion , to block any passing on of of more affordable, innovative ways of doing things,as they have done on many sites,attacking any suggestion of steel boats for ocean cruising.Don't change it !---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'll pass on Facebook. Facebook may be more stable then Yahoo, but I don't like their mining of personal data. Though I suppose Yahoo does the same, though perhaps on a smaller scale.Don't know much about Reddit. Why do you think it's better than Yahoo for this group?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :...As an aside, is anyone interested in moving this group somewhere else?, such as facebook or even reddit? this yahoo thing is cumbersome and often just plain doesn't work properly.| 35318|35288|2018-09-14 18:28:21|Murat Ergun|Re: Yahoo, Facebook, Reddit|Hello,I'm new here. I would like to know where can I find the plan file (dxf, dwg, igs etc). And I would like to Is this have a fixed geometry and it's scaling for boat length?Thanks for your valuable help.brentswain38@... [origamiboats] , 14 Eyl 2018 Cum, 10:30 tarihinde ÅŸunu yazdÄ±: Â If it aint broke don't fix it.Then there is the govt versionIf it aint broke ,fix it until it is broke. Metal boat society sold their site to facebook,and it went offÂ line for a long time, arbitrarily ,until the efforts and lobbying of many people, got them around to putting it back online , with lots of work from a lot of people. They can shut us down on a whim, any time.Â They can also allow it to be swamped by extremely ignorant people, like the Bob Perry trollÂ gang who scour the internet, to kill any suggestion ofÂ innovation, and swamp any site Perry doesn't like, with made up lies and distortion , to block any passingÂ on of of more affordable, innovative ways of doing things,as they have done on many sites,attacking any suggestion of steel boats for ocean cruising.Don't change it !---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'll pass on Facebook. Facebook may be more stable then Yahoo, but I don't like their mining of personal data. Though I suppose Yahoo does the same, though perhaps on a smaller scale..Don't know much about Reddit. Why do you think it's better than Yahoo for this group?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :...As an aside, is anyone interested in moving this group somewhere else?, such as facebook or even reddit? this yahoo thing is cumbersome and often just plain doesn't work properly. | 35319|35319|2018-09-15 03:37:25|brentswain38|Decreed "Trendy?"|Has anyone noticed that some of the newer plastic boats ( Jeneau, Beneteau, etc) have slab sided topsides with chines, just like the single chine steel hulls they used to call "Ugly!"Sad, when I think of all the trouble , time and expense a lot of metal boat builders have gone to, to make their topsides round, because that was what was decreed "Beautiful" ,and "Stylish"It shows just hows arbritrary, and shallow their decrees can be. Much easier, and more logical , to simply build what you need, what works well, and cruise until a positive decree comes along. Meanwhile, don't give a shit.(A 'Successful" designer, is one who doesn't have to use the death of his son, as an excuse to go asking for handouts).| 35320|35319|2018-09-15 21:51:10|Larry Dale|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|I have noticed and I have also noticed the big plexiglass windows that they put in those topsides - nothing to leak there! ha.ha. I wonder how many times you could fall off a wave and slam down on that topside before the window would start to leak. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 3:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Decreed "Trendy?" Has anyone noticed that some of the newer plastic boats ( Jeneau, Beneteau, etc) have slab sided topsides with chines, just like the single chine steel hulls they used to call "Ugly!"Sad, when I think of all the trouble , time and expense a lot of metal boat builders have gone to, to make their topsides round, because that was what was decreed "Beautiful" ,and "Stylish"It shows just hows arbritrary, and shallow their decrees can be. Much easier, and more logical , to simply build what you need, what works well, and cruise until a positive decree comes along. Meanwhile, don't give a shit.(A 'Successful" designer, is one who doesn't have to use the death of his son, as an excuse to go asking for handouts). | 35321|35319|2018-09-16 17:32:59|brentswain38|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That is an extremely hard place to prevent from leaking, long term, given how much time it spends submerged. I guess one could rout an O ring grove around the edge, for an o ring seal against the frame, but I doubt they would ever accept any suggestion coming from me. They would probably believe in infallibility promises from the goop manufacturers.I have noticed and I have also noticed the big plexiglass windows that they put in those topsides - nothing to leak there! ha.ha. I wonder how many times you could fall off a wave and slam down on that topside before the window would start to leak. From: "brentswain38@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 3:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Decreed "Trendy?" #ygrps-yiv-792506031 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623 .ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623ygrp-photo-title{ clear:both;font-size:smaller;min-height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;} #ygrps-yiv-792506031 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623 div.ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623ygrp-photo{ background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;min-height:62px;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-792506031 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046 #ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623 div.ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-792506031 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.ygrps-yiv-792506031ygrps-yiv-892757046yiv0380597623ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}Has anyone noticed that some of the newer plastic boats ( Jeneau, Beneteau, etc) have slab sided topsides with chines, just like the single chine steel hulls they used to call "Ugly!"Sad, when I think of all the trouble , time and expense a lot of metal boat builders have gone to, to make their topsides round, because that was what was decreed "Beautiful" ,and "Stylish"It shows just hows arbritrary, and shallow their decrees can be. Much easier, and more logical , to simply build what you need, what works well, and cruise until a positive decree comes along. Meanwhile, don't give a shit.(A 'Successful" designer, is one who doesn't have to use the death of his son, as an excuse to go asking for handouts).| 35322|35319|2018-09-16 17:40:45|opuspaul|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|The new fat cruising boats are modeled after the extremely wide round the world race boats. The benefit to their customers is that they maximize volume for a given length. A 40 footer may have the room inside as an older model 50 footer. They also fit a huge amount of people in the cockpit for those cocktail parties so important to the marina crowd ;). Forget about using a simple windwane. You will need a good crew to keep them in the groove or an extremely expensive and power hungry gyro stabilized autopilot if want to sleep at night and keep them moving fast. With no deep bilge, I imagine a few gallons of water in the bilge would soon be splashed all over the inside of the boat when heeled. Most of these newer designs are very thin skinned and use the interior structure bonded to the hull with glue for stiffness. I liken them to a plastic bag propped open by cardboard. Hit a reef and pound a few hours and you are screwed. No thanks. Given a choice, I would rather have a moderate boat that takes care of me rather than an extreme boat where I need to take care of it. | 35323|35323|2018-09-17 15:28:58|zoascott74@gmail.com|Hull beside highway to swartz bay.|Hey im new here ,i have my boat hauled out at canoe cove been working on it this summer . I keep seeing the one tucked away on ocean side of highway in sanich .looks pretty rough but wonder if anyone knows the story ... Thanks Zoa| 35324|35319|2018-09-17 20:54:27|brentswain38|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One such round the world racer had to quit in South Africa because she kept constantly burning out autopilots.Some have all the wiring and plumbing put in, then a solid liner put on top of it all .You have to cut holes in the liners to get at at anything.With such deep keels and narrow keel attachments to the hulls, keels falling off are not uncommon.I once saw a Beneteau hauled out in Nanaimo, with 38 fragile, white plastic thru hulls, just above the waterline, where UV makes them even more fragile.A friend, crewing on one of those boats, said they couldn't leave the helm for a second, without it immediately veering off course.Sad to se designers who used to design good boats, going like sheeple in that direction.The new fat cruising boats are modeled after the extremely wide round the world race boats. The benefit to their customers is that they maximize volume for a given length. A 40 footer may have the room inside as an older model 50 footer. They also fit a huge amount of people in the cockpit for those cocktail parties so important to the marina crowd ;). Forget about using a simple windwane. You will need a good crew to keep them in the groove or an extremely expensive and power hungry gyro stabilized autopilot if want to sleep at night and keep them moving fast. With no deep bilge, I imagine a few gallons of water in the bilge would soon be splashed all over the inside of the boat when heeled. Most of these newer designs are very thin skinned and use the interior structure bonded to the hull with glue for stiffness. I liken them to a plastic bag propped open by cardboard. Hit a reef and pound a few hours and you are screwed. No thanks. Given a choice, I would rather have a moderate boat that takes care of me rather than an extreme boat where I need to take care of it. | 35325|35323|2018-09-17 21:27:35|brentswain38|Re: Hull beside highway to swartz bay.|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sounds like the boat Miles built, named "Avro." a single keel 36 built on Quadra Island , back in the 80's.He went on to be a steel fabricator, working on pulp mills. Building that boat, before I had written the book ,or the video was out, from pictures, plans and taped instructions, was his first steel working experience.Hey im new here ,i have my boat hauled out at canoe cove been working on it this summer . I keep seeing the one tucked away on ocean side of highway in sanich .looks pretty rough but wonder if anyone knows the story ... Thanks Zoa| 35326|35326|2018-09-18 00:15:13|akenai|Skeg plate stiffener|Bret what is recommended for the plate thickness and run lengthof the stiffener plate that is attached from forward of the skeg to the hull?Aaron| 35327|35319|2018-09-18 01:20:46|brentswain38|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|ZERO chance of encountering a kelp bed or net in the nigh,t with the keels and rudders they put on those contraptions, without fouling in a huge pile of stuff ,very hard to get free of.| 35328|35319|2018-09-18 17:50:28|opuspaul|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|The base autopilots for these light wide race boats are very expensive. Add in a few spares, and you are talking real money. NKE seems to be the popular one. There was one on a Class 40 racer in the 2014 Solo Tasman race that had one. If I remember right, he said at the time all up with instruments he had spent well over 20K.The failure rate of marine autopilots are very high. In a past life, I have worked on aircraft autopilots for a living and worked on many marine autopilots and there is no comparison in build quality. Most of the ones built for recreation boating are absolute pieces of shit. Having seen many failures over the years, I wouldn't touch a new Raymarine wheel pilot with a ten foot pole. The plastic gears, plastic parts, tiny motors and belts and crappy connectors are a joke. The engineers should have to hand steer a boat for a week in a rough sea before they ever design something. The setup procedure on the new Raymarine stuff is a real pain in the ass. Trying to reset one at sea if something goes wrong can be next to impossible. Stick to commercial stuff. It may use more power with a bigger motor drive system and heavier parts but at least it will work. My friend had a basic TMQ wheelpilot which was OK. It was a commercial unit designed for hydraulic steering and quite reliable once he finally got a ram that was up to the task. Brent has the right idea. Contrast the above with a home made windvane and cheap electronic tiller pilot running off the vane trim tab on transom hung rudder. My windvane cost less than $200 to build. In 25+ years, it has never let me down. I bought a new tillerpilot for less than $500. Pushing the small tab, it uses very little current and won't burn out. A cheap tillerpilot on the tab will last many years as long as you keep the water out of it and don't bang it around. My original tillerpilot worked over 20 yrs before the flux compass gave out. I bought another one and now carry a (used) spare. Don't assume any tillerpilot is waterproof. None are despite what they say. Quite often they will eventually leak through the buttons and as the ram goes in or out it will suck in moist air through the vent hole on the bottom. So I run mine with goop or sealant around the case seams and run it in a clear plastic bag if it is going to be out in the rain or spray. Hand steering for 2 or 3 days under power when you are short handed is no fun. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One such round the world racer had to quit in South Africa because she kept constantly burning out autopilots.Some have all the wiring and plumbing put in, then a solid liner put on top of it all .You have to cut holes in the liners to get at at anything.With such deep keels and narrow keel attachments to the hulls, keels falling off are not uncommon.I once saw a Beneteau hauled out in Nanaimo, with 38 fragile, white plastic thru hulls, just above the waterline, where UV makes them even more fragile.A friend, crewing on one of those boats, said they couldn't leave the helm for a second, without it immediately veering off course.Sad to se designers who used to design good boats, going like sheeple in that direction.| 35329|35326|2018-09-18 22:19:22|jpronk1|Re: Skeg plate stiffener|Is this a plate welded to the leading edge of the skeg on the exterior of the hull and welded into the centre line? James Sent from my iPhone| 35330|35326|2018-09-19 02:35:14|Aaron|Re: Skeg plate stiffener|Yes that is the location I am working on nextAaronSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:03 PM, jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: Is this a plate welded to the leading edge of the skeg on the exterior of the hull and welded into the centre line? 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I am using yahoo with Thunderbird to collect and download the messages. I have messages that vanish completely after composing them and other messages that vanish and then suddenly appear after time periods of anwhere from 2 hours to 3 days. Other messages come in immediately with no problem and other messages are sent to me repeatedly....up to 4 times.My other yahoo groups seem to be having similar problems. I really think yahoo groups will be gone in the next year or two. Maybe sooner. This sucks. One of my groups, Proafile moved to Reddit. You can see what it looks like here:https://www.reddit.com/r/proasailingI know others have suggested doing something before everything gets locked out or lost. Something to think about.....| 35332|35331|2018-09-19 20:49:40|Matt Malone|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....| Yahoo unilaterally pulled Geocities, and I lost all my web content. It would be a pity if all of origami boats we lost. Is there a backup of the content anywhere? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 6:11:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo is getting worse.... ....and more frustrating. I am using yahoo with Thunderbird to collect and download the messages. I have messages that vanish completely after composing them and other messages that vanish and then suddenly appear after time periods of anwhere from 2 hours to 3 days. Other messages come in immediately with no problem and other messages are sent to me repeatedly....up to 4 times. My other yahoo groups seem to be having similar problems. I really think yahoo groups will be gone in the next year or two. Maybe sooner. This sucks. One of my groups, Proafile moved to Reddit. You can see what it looks like here: https://www.reddit.com/r/proasailing I know others have suggested doing something before everything gets locked out or lost. Something to think about..... | 35333|35331|2018-09-20 09:24:57|Shawn Green|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....|I'm not a fan of yahoo at all.Like I said last week, I would be happy to move, however there was some opposition . Not that I really understood the arguments against it,but heh.Yahoo will be defunct within a few years at most. most likely without much warning. Facebook groups are the easiest way to handle something like this, and the format and ease of use is infinitely better. However i understand that not everyone wants to be a user of Facebook.| 35334|35331|2018-09-20 11:12:24|Darren Bos|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....| I have no idea what the best option is, but it does seem like Origamiboats may need to move if it is to survive.Â For me, if the group moves I'd follow if it were a place that still provided e-mails of the messages.Â It would be great if the location had a good way to search messages.Â Right now, I usually use the search in my email program (I have group messages back to 2005 stored) as it does better than Yahoo's search function.Â I'm not a fan of facebook and probably wouldn't migrate if the group moved there.Â On 18-09-18 03:11 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â ....and more frustrating.Â Â Â I am using yahoo with Thunderbird to collect and download the messages.Â Â I have messages that vanish completely after composing them and other messages that vanish and then suddenly appear after time periods of anwhere from 2 hours to 3 days.Â Other messages come in immediately with no problem and other messagesÂ are sent to me repeatedly....up to 4 times. My other yahoo groups seem to be having similar problems.Â I really think yahoo groups will be gone in the next year or two.Â Maybe sooner.Â Â This sucks.Â Â One of my groups, Proafile moved to Reddit.Â You can see what it looks like here: https://www.reddit.com/r/proasailing I know others have suggested doing something before everything gets locked out or lost.Â Â Something to think about..... | 35335|35323|2018-09-20 14:23:22|Zoa Scott|Re: Hull beside highway to swartz bay.|Wow good for him.Shame seeing it just sit there . On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 11:05 PM brentswain38@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sounds like theÂ boatÂ Miles built, named "Avro." a single keel 36Â built on Quadra Island , back in the 80's.He went on to be a steel fabricator, working on pulp mills. Building thatÂ boat, before I had written the book ,or the video was out,Â from pictures, plans and taped instructions, was his first steelÂ working experience.Hey im new here ,i have my boat hauled out at canoe cove been working on it this summer . I keep seeing the one tucked away on ocean side of highway in sanich .looks pretty rough but wonder if anyone knows the story ... Thanks Zoa | 35336|35326|2018-09-20 14:26:11|brentswain38|Re: Skeg plate stiffener|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I use 1/2 inch plate. and run it into the back of a single keel, or about 3 feet ahead of the skeg, on a single keeler.Bret what is recommended for the plate thickness and run length of the stiffener plate that is attached from forward of the skeg to the hull?Aaron| 35337|35331|2018-09-20 14:37:36|brentswain38|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....|Maybe some one could put it on memory sticks for safeguarding. I have it archived from 2010 back, on an old computer ,if that computer still works. A friend Emails me on something called Protonmail. It is strictly Swiss subject to Swiss privacy laws, encripted on both ends, so not even the server can read your mail. Thinking of going that route for my email address, Trump has zero control over it.| 35338|35326|2018-09-20 14:47:05|Aaron|Re: Skeg plate stiffener|Thanks Brent I am building the twin keel version would the 3 feet forward still be enough? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:26 AM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I use 1/2 inch plate. and run it into the back of a single keel, or about 3 feet ahead of the skeg, on a single keeler.Bret what is recommended for the plate thickness and run length of the stiffener plate that is attached from forward of the skeg to the hull?Aaron #ygrps-yiv-455513357 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 -- #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-455513357 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-455513357 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-455513357 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-mkp 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#ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-455513357 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-455513357 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-455513357yiv8291121293ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-455513357 | 35339|35331|2018-09-20 16:51:23|opuspaul|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....|There is absolutely no way I would move to Facebook. Whatever we use, I would prefer to be able to download messages or have have the option to have them emailed to me so that I could read them offline. Not everybody is on high speed internet all the time.| 35340|35331|2018-09-20 18:14:36|Matt Malone|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....| So, what are the options for - hosting a "group" - that mirrors as a mailing list and - integrates image storage with the group archive, - does the appropriate access control that prevents outright vandalism, but allows posting by non-fans that borders on trolling - and is not linked to a corporation like facebook, google etc. - not dependent on a single person and ongoing labor, - has no cost. ? We were really spoiled by Yahoo. It seems the facebook and google business models are economically more successful than others, suggesting greater longevity. Despite what some people do not like about them, a lot of people are willing to give up many things taken for granted as good things 30 years ago, for a money-less, convenience. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 16:52 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Yahoo is getting worse.... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com There is absolutely no way I would move to Facebook. Whatever we use, I would prefer to be able to download messages or have have the option to have them emailed to me so that I could read them offline. Not everybody is on high speed internet all the time. | 35341|35319|2018-09-21 18:04:11|Zoa Scott|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|Little bit off topic but i have seen hunters,catalinas,hanse,beneteaus and jeanneaus all having to have keels removed this summer from what appears to be fairly minor impact.Its actually kinda mindboggling what overpriced junk they are .Just my opinion . On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 12:54 PM opusnz@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â The base autopilots for these light wide race boats are very expensive.Â Add in a few spares, and you are talking real money. Â NKE seems to be the popular one.Â There was one on a Class 40 racer in the 2014 Solo Tasman race that had one.Â Â If I remember right, he said at the time all up with instruments he had spent well over 20K.The failure rate of marine autopilots are very high.Â Â In a past life, I have worked on aircraft autopilots for a living and worked on many marine autopilots and there is no comparison in build quality.Â Most of the ones built for recreation boating are absolute pieces of shit.Â Having seen many failures over the years, I wouldn't touch a new Raymarine wheel pilot with a ten foot pole.Â Â The plastic gears, plastic parts, tiny motors and belts and crappy connectors are a joke.Â Â The engineers should have to hand steer a boat for a week in a rough sea before they ever design something.Â Â The setup procedure on the new Raymarine stuff is a real pain in the ass.Â Trying to reset one at sea if something goes wrong can be next to impossible.Â Â Stick to commercial stuff.Â Â It may use more power with a bigger motor drive system and heavier parts but at least it will work.Â My friend had a basic TMQ wheelpilot which was OK. Â It was a commercial unit designed for hydraulic steering and quite reliable once he finally got a ram that was up to the task.Â Brent has the right idea.Â Â Contrast the above with a home made windvane and cheap electronic tiller pilot running off the vane trim tab on transom hung rudder.Â Â My windvane cost less than $200 to build.Â Â In 25+ years, it has never let me down.Â Â I bought a new tillerpilot for less than $500.Â Pushing the small tab, it uses very little current and won't burn out.Â Â A cheap tillerpilot on the tab will last many years as long as you keep the water out of it and don't bang it around.Â My original tillerpilot worked over 20 yrs before the flux compass gave out. Â I bought another one and now carry a (used) spare.Â Don't assume any tillerpilot is waterproof.Â None are despite what they say.Â Â Quite often they will eventually leak through the buttons and as the ram goes in or out it will suck in moist air through the vent hole on the bottom.Â Â So I run mine with goop or sealant around the case seams and run it in a clear plastic bag if it is going to be out in the rain or spray.Â Â Hand steering for 2 or 3 days under power when you are short handed is no fun.Â Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One such round the world racer had toÂ quit in South Africa because she kept constantly burning out autopilots.Some have all the wiring and plumbing put in, thenÂ a solidÂ liner put on top of it all .You have toÂ cut holes in the liners toÂ get at at anything.With suchÂ deep keels and narrow keel attachments to the hulls, keels falling off are not uncommon.I once saw a Beneteau hauled out in Nanaimo, withÂ 38 fragile, white plastic thru hulls, just above the waterline,Â where UV makes them even moreÂ fragile.A friend, crewing on one of those boats, said they couldn't leave the helm for a second, without itÂ immediately veering off course.Sad to se designers who used to design good boats,Â going like sheeple in thatÂ direction. | 35342|35326|2018-09-21 18:15:40|brentswain38|Re: Skeg plate stiffener|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes altho bit more wouldn't hurt anything.Thanks Brent I am building the twin keel version would the 3 feet forward still be enough? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:26 AM, brentswain38@... 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0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-644729034 #ygrps-yiv-644729034ygrps-yiv-1940076629 #ygrps-yiv-644729034ygrps-yiv-1940076629yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-644729034ygrps-yiv-1940076629yiv8291121293ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-644729034 #ygrps-yiv-644729034ygrps-yiv-1940076629 #ygrps-yiv-644729034ygrps-yiv-1940076629yiv8291121293 #ygrps-yiv-644729034ygrps-yiv-1940076629yiv8291121293ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 35343|35319|2018-09-21 18:18:30|brentswain38|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|Scantling rules specify an inch of keel bolt cross section for every 1500 lbs of keel weight. That works fine; for shallow, wide keel attachments to the hull. As keels got deeper, and the attachment point to the hull got narrower , the loads on the keel bolts increased exponentially. The original rules didn't make any allowance for this .It has reached the point where, in some boats, it puts a bending,load on the keel bolts, making metal fatigue of those bolts inevitable.The best way to do those keels is the Thunderbird, Haida 26 style, a flange on top, to spread the loads out wider. This has the added advantage of allowing one to remove any bolt, any time ,easily, and check and replace it, if necessary. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Little bit off topic but i have seen hunters,catalinas,hanse,beneteaus and jeanneaus all having to have keels removed this summer from what appears to be fairly minor impact.Its actually kinda mindboggling what overpriced junk they are .Just my opinion . On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 12:54 PM opusnz@... [origamiboats], wrote: The base autopilots for these light wide race boats are very expensive. Add in a few spares, and you are talking real money. NKE seems to be the popular one. There was one on a Class 40 racer in the 2014 Solo Tasman race that had one. If I remember right, he said at the time all up with instruments he had spent well over 20K.The failure rate of marine autopilots are very high. In a past life, I have worked on aircraft autopilots for a living and worked on many marine autopilots and there is no comparison in build quality. Most of the ones built for recreation boating are absolute pieces of shit. Having seen many failures over the years, I wouldn't touch a new Raymarine wheel pilot with a ten foot pole. The plastic gears, plastic parts, tiny motors and belts and crappy connectors are a joke. The engineers should have to hand steer a boat for a week in a rough sea before they ever design something. The setup procedure on the new Raymarine stuff is a real pain in the ass. Trying to reset one at sea if something goes wrong can be next to impossible. Stick to commercial stuff. It may use more power with a bigger motor drive system and heavier parts but at least it will work. My friend had a basic TMQ wheelpilot which was OK. It was a commercial unit designed for hydraulic steering and quite reliable once he finally got a ram that was up to the task. Brent has the right idea. Contrast the above with a home made windvane and cheap electronic tiller pilot running off the vane trim tab on transom hung rudder. My windvane cost less than $200 to build. In 25+ years, it has never let me down. I bought a new tillerpilot for less than $500. Pushing the small tab, it uses very little current and won't burn out. A cheap tillerpilot on the tab will last many years as long as you keep the water out of it and don't bang it around. My original tillerpilot worked over 20 yrs before the flux compass gave out. I bought another one and now carry a (used) spare. Don't assume any tillerpilot is waterproof. None are despite what they say. Quite often they will eventually leak through the buttons and as the ram goes in or out it will suck in moist air through the vent hole on the bottom. So I run mine with goop or sealant around the case seams and run it in a clear plastic bag if it is going to be out in the rain or spray. Hand steering for 2 or 3 days under power when you are short handed is no fun. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :One such round the world racer had to quit in South Africa because she kept constantly burning out autopilots.Some have all the wiring and plumbing put in, then a solid liner put on top of it all .You have to cut holes in the liners to get at at anything.With such deep keels and narrow keel attachments to the hulls, keels falling off are not uncommon.I once saw a Beneteau hauled out in Nanaimo, with 38 fragile, white plastic thru hulls, just above the waterline, where UV makes them even more fragile.A friend, crewing on one of those boats, said they couldn't leave the helm for a second, without it immediately veering off course.Sad to se designers who used to design good boats, going like sheeple in that direction. | 35344|35319|2018-09-21 18:34:08|Matt Malone|Re: Decreed \Trendy?\| Don't forget the increased speed of modern designs with high aspect keels. Higher speed of impact also puts greater loads on bolts. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, September 21, 18:18 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Decreed "Trendy?" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Scantling rules specify an inch of keel bolt cross section for every 1500 lbs of keel weight. That works fine; for shallow, wide keel attachments to the hull. As keels got deeper, and the attachment point to the hull got narrower , the loads on the keel bolts increased exponentially. The original rules didn't make any allowance for this .It has reached the point where, in some boats, it puts a bending,load on the keel bolts, making metal fatigue of those bolts inevitable. The best way to do those keels is the Thunderbird, Haida 26 style, a flange on top, to spread the loads out wider. This has the added advantage of allowing one to remove any bolt, any time ,easily, and check and replace it, if necessary. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Little bit off topic but i have seen hunters,catalinas,hanse,beneteaus and jeanneaus all having to have keels removed this summer from what appears to be fairly minor impact. Its actually kinda mindboggling what overpriced junk they are . Just my opinion . On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 12:54 PM opusnz@... [origamiboats], wrote: The base autopilots for these light wide race boats are very expensive. Add in a few spares, and you are talking real money. NKE seems to be the popular one. There was one on a Class 40 racer in the 2014 Solo Tasman race that had one. If I remember right, he said at the time all up with instruments he had spent well over 20K. The failure rate of marine autopilots are very high. In a past life, I have worked on aircraft autopilots for a living and worked on many marine autopilots and there is no comparison in build quality. Most of the ones built for recreation boating are absolute pieces of shit. Having seen many failures over the years, I wouldn't touch a new Raymarine wheel pilot with a ten foot pole. The plastic gears, plastic parts, tiny motors and belts and crappy connectors are a joke. The engineers should have to hand steer a boat for a week in a rough sea before they ever design something. The setup procedure on the new Raymarine stuff is a real pain in the ass. Trying to reset one at sea if something goes wrong can be next to impossible. Stick to commercial stuff. It may use more power with a bigger motor drive system and heavier parts but at least it will work. My friend had a basic TMQ wheelpilot which was OK. It was a commercial unit designed for hydraulic steering and quite reliable once he finally got a ram that was up to the task. Brent has the right idea. Contrast the above with a home made windvane and cheap electronic tiller pilot running off the vane trim tab on transom hung rudder. My windvane cost less than $200 to build. In 25+ years, it has never let me down. I bought a new tillerpilot for less than $500. Pushing the small tab, it uses very little current and won't burn out. A cheap tillerpilot on the tab will last many years as long as you keep the water out of it and don't bang it around. My original tillerpilot worked over 20 yrs before the flux compass gave out. I bought another one and now carry a (used) spare. Don't assume any tillerpilot is waterproof. None are despite what they say. Quite often they will eventually leak through the buttons and as the ram goes in or out it will suck in moist air through the vent hole on the bottom. So I run mine with goop or sealant around the case seams and run it in a clear plastic bag if it is going to be out in the rain or spray. Hand steering for 2 or 3 days under power when you are short handed is no fun. Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : One such round the world racer had to quit in South Africa because she kept constantly burning out autopilots. Some have all the wiring and plumbing put in, then a solid liner put on top of it all .You have to cut holes in the liners to get at at anything. With such deep keels and narrow keel attachments to the hulls, keels falling off are not uncommon. I once saw a Beneteau hauled out in Nanaimo, with 38 fragile, white plastic thru hulls, just above the waterline, where UV makes them even more fragile. A friend, crewing on one of those boats, said they couldn't leave the helm for a second, without it immediately veering off course. Sad to se designers who used to design good boats, going like sheeple in that direction. | 35345|35319|2018-09-21 20:10:50|opuspaul|Re: Decreed \Trendy?\|Worse than the keel attachment is how the hulls are built. They rely on the interior structure bonded to the hull with high strength glue for stiffness. Once these boats hit a rock or reef or rack a bit from twisting, the interior breaks away from the hull and it is almost impossible to fix. There is little to no access and it is almost impossible to tell if the glue has come unstuck. I know a guy who bought a Hunter 41 for next to nothing in Fiji after it had pounded on the reef. He spent months fixing it up but on the first offshore trip to windward the hull around the keel started cracking as the keel wobbled back and forth. He was taking on water and couldn't make Vavau and couldn't make it back to Fiji so he was forced to sail the boat to Tin Can Island (NiuafoÊ»ou). There were no facilities or anchorage so he was forced to abandon the boat to the villagers as the boat sunk. He lost everything.Rudders also are a joke on some production hulls. It is hard to believe but some of them actually use aluminum rudder posts or thin composite shafts on their spade rudders. Just google your brand (Hanse, Hunter, etc) along with Rudder and you will read about all the failures. There are so many problems that there are companies who specialize in replacements. https://www.newrudders.com/standard-rudders/ Bottom line is that you really need to do a lot of research if you are buying a production hull. Just because a boat has crossed an ocean doesn't mean it is any good for long term cruising. The real test is when you hit something, drag anchor one night and end up on the rocks or get smashed by a large breaking wave offshore. It happens. I prefer older and more robust designs that have thick hulls that you can access and see. Paul| 35346|35319|2018-09-21 20:26:43|opuspaul|Re: Decreed \Trendy?\|Look at how they make a rudder on a Hanse. What a joke. They say this is reliable and won't corrode but reality is different than theory. I know of a brand new Hanse that was being delivered to Nelson from Auckland. The delivery crew came into New Plymouth with the rudder bearings leaking so badly from the rudder flexing and working that they were scared to continue another 24 hrs without talking and getting approval from the dealer and the insurance company. Imagine what the aluminum alloy rudder stock will be like after 10 years in the water with copper bottom paint. These engineers need to go back to school or spend some time offshore. Foam with a thin glass skin and a few internal struts to hold it all together is just not good enough. Paulhttp://www.windcrafthanse.com/hanse-steering/http://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072.html| 35347|35319|2018-09-22 20:22:42|brentswain38|Re: Decreed \Trendy?\|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :In a recent article in Sail magazine, Tom Cunliffe state that skegless, fig leaf rudders have the highest failure rate of any rudder ever invented. Yet Bob Perry said, if he were designing the Valiant 40 today, it would have a fig leaf rudder on a composite shaft, and a deep, high aspect, kelp and net grabber keel. Those are the kind of decisions you get from someone with no offshore cruising experience, who's self promotion is made up entirely of following whatever is deemed "Trendy," and "The latest style."Another area I have seen ignored, with disasterous results, is the area around such a shaft must also be at least as strong as any rudder shaft passing thru it.Look at how they make a rudder on a Hanse. What a joke. They say this is reliable and won't corrode but reality is different than theory. I know of a brand new Hanse that was being delivered to Nelson from Auckland. The delivery crew came into New Plymouth with the rudder bearings leaking so badly from the rudder flexing and working that they were scared to continue another 24 hrs without talking and getting approval from the dealer and the insurance company. Imagine what the aluminum alloy rudder stock will be like after 10 years in the water with copper bottom paint. These engineers need to go back to school or spend some time offshore. Foam with a thin glass skin and a few internal struts to hold it all together is just not good enough. Paulhttp://www.windcrafthanse.com/hanse-steering/http://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072.html| 35348|35319|2018-09-22 20:31:27|brentswain38|Re: Decreed \Trendy?\|Tank tests have shown that raking the rudder post aft any amount, drastically reduces rudder efficiency, by dragging air down it, inducing a stall. Friends who have had that kind of rudder, have confirmed it, in real life situations.Read what Donald Street has to say about it.He asked many designers why they would design a rudder that way , and the only answer he could get, was "It looks fast, and sells boats".Bob Perry has said it is not a good idea or design a boat to withstand collisions, because boats are not supposed to hit things! He ridicules structural strength in a boat.| 35349|35319|2018-09-29 17:57:34|Zoa Scott|Re: Decreed \Trendy?\|There is a Hanse out of the water at boatyard with keel removed from slight impactÂ It actually delamed/seperated hull as well .I could post some interesting pics but not sure howÂ On Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:31 PM brentswain38@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â Tank tests have shown thatÂ raking the rudder post aft any amount, drastically reduces rudder efficiency, byÂ dragging airÂ down it, inducing a stall. Friends who have had that kind of rudder, have confirmed it, in real life situations.Read what Donald Street has to say about it.He asked many designers why they would design a rudder thatÂ way , and the only answer he could get,Â wasÂ "It looks fast, and sells boats".Bob Perry hasÂ saidÂ it is not a good idea or design a boat to withstand collisions, because boats are not supposed to hit things! He ridicules structural strength in a boat. | 35350|35319|2018-10-04 17:16:26|brentswain38|Re: Decreed "Trendy?"|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :lf you tried to built a production, stock plastic boat today ,properly, with the current cost of labour and materials and the glutted small boat market, you would go bankrupt very quickly.Thus the only ones still in the production boat market are those who have skimped on materials to the minimum which will still stay afloat (mostly in marinas) .Little bit off topic but i have seen hunters,catalinas,hanse,beneteaus and jeanneaus all having to have keels removed this summer from what appears to be fairly minor impact.Its actually kinda mindboggling what overpriced junk they are .Just my opinion . With such deep keels and narrow keel attachments to the hulls, keels falling off are not uncommon.I once saw a Beneteau hauled out in Nanaimo, with 38 fragile, white plastic thru hulls, just above the waterline, where UV makes them even more fragile.A friend, crewing on one of those boats, said they couldn't leave the helm for a second, without it immediately veering off course.Sad to se designers who used to design good boats, going like sheeple in that direction. | 35351|35351|2018-10-17 18:23:57|brentswain38|Origamiboat mileage|I just did a rough estimate of how many open ocean miles my boats have put in their wake ,roughly 385,000 miles, enough to stretch to the moon and nearly half way back. That doesn't include over 4 decades of coastal cruising. Mostly 36 footers. ZERO serious structural problems at sea. I wonder how many other steel boat designs have that much proven success..| 35352|35351|2018-10-17 22:39:01|prairiemaidca|Re: Origamiboat mileage| Prairie Maid has over 1100 nm cruising the coast of B.C. for the 2018 season. She has been in the water for 5 years now as of oct. She has proven to be every thing that she was billed as and more in all her abilities and sea keeping. I'm certainly no nautical expert by any means but as far as her hull design I don't have any complaints or changes that I would implement. Of course there are a few things I'd do differently that were strictly of my own doings but that has nothing to do with her overall performance and especially her design. Mr. Swain your boats are solid and sea worthy vessels in design. "Well Done"Martin (Prairie Maid}| 35353|35353|2018-10-19 15:59:00|brentswain38|Deck tracks|Don't tack or plug weld track to the deck of a steel boat. When corrosion begins under it, it is impossible to deal with, without cutting the whole track off, not an easy task. The beam of a brentboat is just right for attaching the jib sheet to the bulwark cap. If you have a boat with greater beam, then a row of flush SS acorn nuts along the deck is much better solution.| 35354|35351|2018-10-19 16:16:40|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat mileage|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thanks Martin . The crew of Shinola, a 36ft brentboat, after sailing her to New Zealand and back to BC, said they didn't see another boat on the whole voyage, that they would rather be in. Mike, the skipper, said he hasn't seen one departure from the original design, which was an improvement. Prairie Maid has over 1100 nm cruising the coast of B.C. for the 2018 season. She has been in the water for 5 years now as of oct. She has proven to be every thing that she was billed as and more in all her abilities and sea keeping. I'm certainly no nautical expert by any means but as far as her hull design I don't have any complaints or changes that I would implement. Of course there are a few things I'd do differently that were strictly of my own doings but that has nothing to do with her overall performance and especially her design. Mr. Swain your boats are solid and sea worthy vessels in design. "Well Done"Martin (Prairie Maid}| 35355|35351|2018-10-19 22:54:13|aguysailing|Re: Origamiboat mileage|Not mentioned but worthy of note. How many jars of venison processed since your launch. I am betting you could come close with a guess....| 35356|35351|2018-10-20 18:57:23|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat mileage|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Not mentioned but worthy of note. How many jars of venison processed since your launch. I am betting you could come close with a guess....Lost track decades ago. Given the possession limit in Haida Gwai is 5, and I have always filled all my jars when up there, and did well most times down here, I have no idea what the total is.| 35357|35357|2018-10-25 16:55:04|brentswain38|Anchor slamming in the bow roller|Before embarking on a long passage, turn the anchors upside down in the bow roller, with the flukes pointed upward, to stop it from slamming in a head sea. This eliminates that problem, while keeping it instantly deployable. Much easier than having to cat the anchors onto the decks.| 35358|35358|2018-10-31 15:45:13|brentswain38|Attaching interiors|Some have said that it takes hundreds of tabs to attach an interior to a steel boat. Gerr has made similar foolish claims.My boat has roughly 35 tabs, 3 or 4 per bulkhead. The rest of my interior is hung off the bulkheads, with longitudinal 2x4s off the bulkheads for bunk faces tops and backs, and counter tops. Not everything has to be attached to the hull, some can be attached to each other| 35359|35358|2018-11-01 14:51:26|Hannu Venermo|Re: Attaching interiors| +1 On 31/10/2018 20:13, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Some have said that it takes hundreds of tabs to attach an interior to a steel boat. Gerr has made similar foolish claims.My boat has roughly 35 tabs, 3 or 4 per bulkhead. The rest of my interior is hung off the bulkheads, with longitudinal 2x4s off the bulkheads for bunk facesÂ tops and backs, and counter tops. Not everything has to be attached to the hull, some can be attached to each other -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 35360|35358|2018-11-01 17:45:18|Aaron|Re: Attaching interiors|Could they be referring to the smaller tabs that you recommended putting at 36" apart for the furring to attachSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats] wrote: +1 On 31/10/2018 20:13, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Some have said that it takes hundreds of tabs to attach an interior to a steel boat. Gerr has made similar foolish claims.My boat has roughly 35 tabs, 3 or 4 per bulkhead. The rest of my interior is hung off the bulkheads, with longitudinal 2x4s off the bulkheads for bunk faces tops and backs, and counter tops. 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[origamiboats] wrote: +1 On 31/10/2018 20:13, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:Some have said that it takes hundreds of tabs to attach an interior to a steel boat. Gerr has made similar foolish claims.My boat has roughly 35 tabs, 3 or 4 per bulkhead. The rest of my interior is hung off the bulkheads, with longitudinal 2x4s off the bulkheads for bunk faces tops and backs, and counter tops. 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#ygrps-yiv-385299817ygrps-yiv-1401324018yiv4872111481 #ygrps-yiv-385299817ygrps-yiv-1401324018yiv4872111481ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 35362|35362|2018-11-02 00:50:40|brentswain38|Functional quality vs cosmetic quality|Some, when referring to 'Quality "in a boat, confuse functional quality with cosmetic quality. Often ,they are polar opposites. A teak deck, hatches, and teak trim are the opposite of functional, as is a huge, wide hardwood floor in a sailing vessel, for the sake of cosmetics. Hiding an engine and equipment out of sight may be great for cosmetic quality, but a poor choice for easy access, and thus the opposite of functional quality. Ditto dangerously low lifelines , teak handrails, excessive complexity in a boat, the list goes on and on. Plastic thru hulls may look pretty, but are dangerously fragile. Ditto a lot of yottie gear. This kind of functional quality doesn't necessarily add much, if anything to the cost of boat ,but can make a boat costing far less, a much better choice, and thus a much better boat overall, than those which favour cosmetic quality over functional quality . Get the logic right, and a good boat can be inexpensive .Get the logic wrong, and you have a piece of crap, no matter how much money you throw at her.| 35363|35363|2018-11-02 01:00:11|Maxime Camirand|Insulating a hull|Hi group,I'm looking at a very nice used steel boat that has lived in fresh water its whole life. However, the inside of the hull does not appear to have been insulated at all, judging from the photos (pending more information).I don't have experience with steel yachts. Would it be impractical to insulate the inside of the hull now? The interior is very nice, and I wouldn't want to gut it completely, so I'm wondering if it's possible to progressively dismantle some parts to expose the hull, insulate, and move on to the next part, while living on the boat.I don't know what type of insulation would be best for this. Some kind of closed-cell foam that can be batch-mixed? Flexible sheets of closed-cell foam I could glue in place?I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences.Max| 35364|35331|2018-11-02 01:22:30|Maxime Camirand|Re: Yahoo is getting worse....|Up until you said "not controlled by Google", I would have suggested Google Groups. They can do emails and so on.Otherwise, there's always Usenet... that doesn't do emails but the format is similar. Zero protection against trolls, though, and it's very outdated.I could also run a Listserv-type server for the group. Then we'd all get emails, but there would be no web platform and no photos. On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 06:14, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â So, what are the options for - hosting a "group" - that mirrors as a mailing list and - integrates image storage with the group archive, - does the appropriate access control that prevents outright vandalism, but allows posting by non-fans that borders on trolling - and is not linked to a corporation like facebook, google etc. - not dependent on a single person and ongoing labor, - has no cost. ? We were really spoiled by Yahoo. It seems the facebook and google business models are economically more successful than others, suggesting greater longevity.Â Despite what some people do not like about them, a lot of people are willing to give up many things taken for granted as good things 30 years ago, for a money-less, convenience. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 16:52 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Yahoo is getting worse.... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Â There is absolutely no way I would move to Facebook.Â Â Whatever we use, I would prefer to be able to download messages or have have the option to have them emailed to me so that I could read them offline.Â Â Â Not everybody is on high speed internet all the time. | 35365|35363|2018-11-02 18:59:43|brentswain38|Re: Insulating a hull|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Make sure you have at least 3 coats of epoxy tar inside ,more is better. before foaming. I tried fibreglass insulation,with a vapour barrier. No matter how meticulous I was with the vapour barrier ,the steel was constantly soaking wet with condensation, which saturated the fibreglass. With sheet foam,the steel was just as wet, which caused tiny paint blisters on it. So I had it sprayfoamed, and ended all such problems. Do it yourself spray foam kits are readily available, and those who have used them say they are easy to use. They are like a couple of propane bottles you hook together, and come in different sizes. I foamed my boat after most of the big stuff in the interior was in. I removed the bunk tops and counter faces. Not all that hard to remove and put them back after foaming. Make sure you cover every speck of steel with at least 1/4 inch or more of foam,as a piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucet.Spray foaming is a huge ,drastic improvement in comfort aboard a boat, well worth the effort and cost. Without it a boat becomes almost unliveable in a cold climate.Hi group,I'm looking at a very nice used steel boat that has lived in fresh water its whole life. However, the inside of the hull does not appear to have been insulated at all, judging from the photos (pending more information).I don't have experience with steel yachts. Would it be impractical to insulate the inside of the hull now? The interior is very nice, and I wouldn't want to gut it completely, so I'm wondering if it's possible to progressively dismantle some parts to expose the hull, insulate, and move on to the next part, while living on the boat.I don't know what type of insulation would be best for this. Some kind of closed-cell foam that can be batch-mixed? Flexible sheets of closed-cell foam I could glue in place?I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences.Max| 35366|35366|2018-11-02 22:22:33|SHANE ROTHWELL|Safety at sea on the Sulu Sea|Hi all,I'm in the small town of Palompon in Leyte province PI which is in the NE quadrant of the Sulu sea not far from where they chopped the Canuck's head off a coupla years ago.Flew here and had pretty much given up the idea of cruising the PI but saw a coupla cruising yachts at anchor & went out to chat.Safety at sea? Got me a responce of "pushaw mate, the Indo's, Maylay's & the PI are running joint patrolls. Made a few examples and if you don't go south of here (basically around the area of Cebu), no worries, none"Dutarte may not have the approval of the west, (especially the yanks after being sick of being shit on forever and says straight out "fuck off yanks") but 2 years ago it was considered insanity to go walking around here at night & that was for the locals. Now...every evening with probably more in my pocket than a my pocket than most earn in a year with absolutely no problems.They love Dutarte for what he has done & he makes no bones about it & says regularly & often "I love my country, don't fuck with me or I WILL KILL YOU".....and he does.They love this guy & having cleaned up a lot of the indemic problems here it's not hard to see why.So looks like the Sulu is safe for the first time in...foreverSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 35367|35363|2018-11-03 02:12:13|rockrothwell|Re: Insulating a hull|I'm assuming these spray foam kits are 2 part closed cell polyeurathane? Is/are any of them easier to apply or in one way or another a superior product? Brent is not kidding re foam coverage. I've been ripping out foam & cleaning up the bildges and on the framing for the bollards down below there were bits fully 6" inboard of the hull that just peed condensation & pretty badly corroded though no structural dammage as it's only been 30 years. Bye the bye, the other area to be careful of re condensation is the bildges. On the Dove no one cleaned the bildges ever. They were also not ventilated and the result was about a quarter inch of perpeyually wet dust & lint over an absolitly horroble rusty mess. No wonder the epoxy failed. So ventilate the bildges throughout and clean em every decade if they need it or not| 35368|35363|2018-11-03 09:31:30|Maxime Camirand|Re: Insulating a hull|Thanks for the replies. It's a relief to know it's a doable job. How far down the hull sides should I insulate? Another member said in an email that down to the waterline is enough.Maybe this is a bit of a blessing, since I can add a few coats of epoxy on top of whatever is already there first (right?), and I can inspect the interior of the hull more completely before purchase.Max On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 07:00, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Make sure you have at least 3 coats of epoxy tar inside ,more isÂ better. before foaming. I tried fibreglass insulation,with a vapour barrier. No matter how meticulous I was with the vapour barrier ,the steelÂ was constantly soaking wet with condensation, which saturated the fibreglass. WithÂ sheet foam,the steel was just asÂ wet, which caused tiny paint blisters on it. So I had it sprayfoamed, and ended all such problems.Â Do it yourself spray foam kits are readily available, and those who have used them say they are easy to use. They are like a couple of propane bottles you hook together, and come in different sizes.Â I foamed my boat after most of the big stuff in the interior was in. I removed the bunk tops and counter faces. Not all thatÂ hard to remove and put them back after foaming. Make sure you cover every speck of steel with atÂ least 1/4 inch or more of foam,as a piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucet.Spray foaming is a huge ,drastic improvement in comfort aboard a boat, well worth the effort andÂ cost. Without itÂ a boat becomes almost unliveable in a cold climate.Hi group,I'm looking at a very nice used steel boat that has lived in fresh water its whole life. However, the inside of the hull does not appear to have been insulated at all, judging from the photos (pending more information).I don't have experience with steel yachts. Would it be impractical to insulate the inside of the hull now? The interior is very nice, and I wouldn't want to gut it completely, so I'm wondering if it's possible to progressively dismantle some parts to expose the hull, insulate, and move on to the next part, while living on the boat.I don't know what type of insulation would be best for this. Some kind of closed-cell foam that can be batch-mixed? Flexible sheets of closed-cell foam I could glue in place?I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences.Max | 35369|35363|2018-11-03 17:42:23|brentswain38|Re: Insulating a hull|Yes, they are 2 part polyurethane. Make sure you get the closed cell type, as open cell is temptingly cheaper, but a big mistake. Don't know about brands ,but people have been happy with whatever they used.________________________________________________________________I'm assuming these spray foam kits are 2 part closed cell polyeurathane? Is/are any of them easier to apply or in one way or another a superior product? Brent is not kidding re foam coverage. I've been ripping out foam & cleaning up the bildges and on the framing for the bollards down below there were bits fully 6" inboard of the hull that just peed condensation & pretty badly corroded though no structural dammage as it's only been 30 years. Bye the bye, the other area to be careful of re condensation is the bildges. On the Dove no one cleaned the bildges ever. They were also not ventilated and the result was about a quarter inch of perpeyually wet dust & lint over an absolitly horroble rusty mess. No wonder the epoxy failed. So ventilate the bildges throughout and clean em every decade if they need it or not| 35370|35363|2018-11-03 17:47:26|brentswain38|Re: Insulating a hull|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com,