36000|35988|2019-06-19 23:08:17|opuspaul|Re: Modern origami design|It is amazing what you can do with a flat sheet. Google "tortured ply boat" and you come up with some interesting designs using thin plywood. I think quite a few Tornado catamarans were built this way. If you saw these hulls with their rounded shape, you would have no idea.https://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/Construction-Methods/Tortured-Plywood-Hulls.htmlI built an outrigger for a proa using similar methods. It was a very quick and easy build. | 36001|35988|2019-06-19 23:31:25|Darren Bos|Re: Modern origami design| Tad Roberts also has a Ragsdale Schooner that is an Origami design On 2019-06-19 2:10 p.m., Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â So,it seems that there are no other origami yachts except Brent Swain one's. Is that possible? Nobody else tried to take advantage of the origami quick method?!? Unbelievable! Why? Il giorno mar 18 giu 2019 alle ore 11:11 Alex Bar ha scritto: Does anybody know about modern origami yacht design? Alex | 36002|35988|2019-06-20 00:41:58|Aaron|Re: Modern origami design|The guy from Origami was not very compatible with this group and seemed to fit more to group that like to say a whole lot about giving them money for their time but never give you anything for their time. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 6:56 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: It definitely borrows from Brent's ideas since each hull side comes from a large flat sheet. For practical reasons, the large flat sheet is pieced together from smaller sheets on the flat. The double chine makes for a lot more welding and complication but it still beats building a conventionally framed boat by a mile. There are a series of construction photos if you click "site map" on the left hand side of the page. Unfortunately, they aren't in order but you get the idea.Maybe Brent knows what happened to the boat.....I am curious.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : That appears to be a hard chine, many-plate without-frame design. I was tempted to assemble a small boat in this way. Note the alignment tabs the hold the abutting plates edge to edge. That is way more welding than a Brent boat, but, the shape can be anything. The photo shows only tension cables and chains holding the shape. One is certain to install something inside... it would be so.much easier to build that and tack plates to it. It is a frame-less build. It does not appear to be an origami in the same sense as Brent's or the designs shown on the Tanton website. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 20:17 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com There was this one, but I never heard what happened to it since the website hasn't been updated for years. http://www.origamimagic.com/ Click the link to designs. 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The construction techniques sound like how our hull was builtRickSent from my iPhone On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: That appears to be a hard chine, many-plate without-frame design. I was tempted to assemble a small boat in this way. Note the alignment tabs the hold the abutting plates edge to edge. That is way more welding than a Brent boat, but, the shape can be anything. The photo shows only tension cables and chains holding the shape. One is certain to install something inside... it would be so.much easier to build that and tack plates to it. It is a frame-less build. It does not appear to be an origami in the same sense as Brent's or the designs shown on the Tanton website. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 20:17 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com There was this one, but I never heard what happened to it since the website hasn't been updated for years. http://www.origamimagic.com/ Click the link to designs. I think a couple of the 50 footers were built. | 36004|35988|2019-06-20 14:31:57|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|3 of his designs have been built in aluminium around here , one for Jean Mark , in Shearwater, one for Harvey,who hangs around Tofino,and one for Greg James recently launched, and at the govt dock in Comox.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :There was this one, but I never heard what happened to it since the website hasn't been updated for years. http://www.origamimagic.com/Click the link to designs. I think a couple of the 50 footers were built.| 36005|35988|2019-06-20 14:41:01|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Cables and chins only have to hold the shape until the final shell is together. Then it becomes extremely rigid, due to the monocoque shape,and simple geometry. No frames necessary. Decades of cruising have proven transverse frames to be completely irrelevant ,structurally. That appears to be a hard chine, many-plate without-frame design. I was tempted to assemble a small boat in this way. Note the alignment tabs the hold the abutting plates edge to edge. That is way more welding than a Brent boat, but, the shape can be anything. The photo shows only tension cables and chains holding the shape. One is certain to install something inside... it would be so.much easier to build that and tack plates to it. It is a frame-less build. It does not appear to be an origami in the same sense as Brent's or the designs shown on the Tanton website. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 20:17 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com There was this one, but I never heard what happened to it since the website hasn't been updated for years. http://www.origamimagic.com/ Click the link to designs. I think a couple of the 50 footers were built. | 36006|35988|2019-06-20 14:49:43|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|That schooner looks like my 36, plagerized.Van de Stadt designs are also a common origami boat. The temporary outside frames are to appease those who cant get their heads around the fact that the plate edges define the hull shape, absolutely .Its amazing how few designers actually learned from the success of his methods, and clung with a white fisted grip on 1950s building methods.Any hard chine hull can be built using origami methods.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Tad Roberts also has a Ragsdale Schooner that is an Origami design On 2019-06-19 2:10 p.m., Alex Bar alebarale33@... [origamiboats] wrote: So,it seems that there are no other origami yachts except Brent Swain one's. Is that possible? Nobody else tried to take advantage of the origami quick method?!? Unbelievable! Why? 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margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1391891081 #ygrps-yiv-1391891081ygrps-yiv-991892659 #ygrps-yiv-1391891081ygrps-yiv-991892659ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1391891081 #ygrps-yiv-1391891081ygrps-yiv-991892659 #ygrps-yiv-1391891081ygrps-yiv-991892659ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 36007|35988|2019-06-20 14:54:21|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|Ya, he was quite the character. I was told he had his young wife doing galley slave duties, mere hours after giving birth. He posted like a used car salesman.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :The guy from Origami was not very compatible with this group and seemed to fit more to group that like to say a whole lot about giving them money for their time but never give you anything for their time. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 6:56 PM, opusnz@... 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#ygrps-yiv-1817405757ygrps-yiv-1764122434yiv4604548723 #ygrps-yiv-1817405757ygrps-yiv-1764122434yiv4604548723ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1817405757 #ygrps-yiv-1817405757ygrps-yiv-1764122434 #ygrps-yiv-1817405757ygrps-yiv-1764122434yiv4604548723 #ygrps-yiv-1817405757ygrps-yiv-1764122434yiv4604548723ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 36008|35988|2019-06-20 14:55:36|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|Who designed your ?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Iâ€™m trying to find the photo your all looking at. The construction techniques sound like how our hull was builtRickSent from my iPhone| 36009|35988|2019-06-20 15:06:18|Matt Malone|Re: Modern origami design| #ygrps-yiv-177659670 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Decades of cruising ON CERTAIN SMALL BOAT DESIGNS WOULD SEEM TO have proven transverse frames to be completely irrelevant, structurally ON CERTAIN SMALL BOAT DESIGNS. This does nothing to disprove that for certain larger boat designs, consistent with centuries of boat design experience, transverse frames ARE essential structurally. Experienced naval architects may have long suspected, for certain small boat designs, including transverse frames is the equivalent of wearing a belt and suspenders, but they would rather err on the side of caution than go down in history as THAT GUY who screwed by up cutting corners on the wrong design, and never work again. Not just any yahoo with a welder, of unknown skill, can make up a boat geometry from scratch, build it in any material, of any thickness, in an arbitrarily large boat, and expect that, contrary to centuries of boat design, they will do as well as Brent has. This is a credit to what Brent has achieved with his designs. But it cannot be generalized without risk of failure. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Cables and chins only have to hold the shape until the final shell is together. Then it becomes extremely rigid, due to the monocoque shape,and simple geometry. No frames necessary. Decades of cruising have proven transverse frames to be completely irrelevant ,structurally. That appears to be a hard chine, many-plate without-frame design. I was tempted to assemble a small boat in this way. Note the alignment tabs the hold the abutting plates edge to edge. That is way more welding than a Brent boat, but, the shape can be anything. The photo shows only tension cables and chains holding the shape. One is certain to install something inside... it would be so.much easier to build that and tack plates to it. It is a frame-less build. It does not appear to be an origami in the same sense as Brent's or the designs shown on the Tanton website. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 20:17 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com There was this one, but I never heard what happened to it since the website hasn't been updated for years. http://www.origamimagic.com/ Click the link to designs. I think a couple of the 50 footers were built. | 36010|36010|2019-06-20 15:20:33|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Before I cut open the Keel|Hi guysI've got a 36 finn keel.There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun.But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job.....Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place...Sounds easy enuf eh?But, .....1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricatedAnd2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixturesIs the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat?Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8".Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shapeOr....Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we?To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater)Your comments much appreciatedGoing to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there...Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36011|35988|2019-06-20 16:38:12|Darren Bos|Re: Modern origami design| In order for something to be plagiarized, it has to be a copy without significant changes.Â Almost all yacht design is derived from those that came before it.Â Is William Crealock's Westsail 32 plagiarized from Colin Archer's pilot boats, or William Atkin's Eric, or is it a design that took what was good from those before it and made something that worked for them.Â I have no idea how Tad's design came about.Â It's worth noting that he cites you as well as others in the development of the origami method.Â Here's the quote from his website: "This construction approach was patented by a Swede, Claes Lundstrom, in 1981. Gary Curtis was licensed to use the method in the US and built several boats, and in Canada Brent Swain has popularized the method." I think folks could be happy with either your or Tad's 36.Â Given one is a schooner and the other is a sloop, they're different right out of the gate.Â I wouldn't want the bowsprit of Tad's boat, but for some that's part of a beautiful boat.Â I've seen Tads interior drawings, which are good, and detailed drawings of the interior make fitting-out much easier, especially for an inexperienced builder.Â Your plans are less expensive, your book is excellent, and a builder can get support for your design through this forum.Â Â I don't think there is much competition between the two designs, they serve different customers.Â Â Given the flack you've taken from some naval architects, I'm surprised you'd accuse one of plagiarism, who supports using the same methods you do, and credits you in the evolution of the methodology. On 2019-06-20 11:49 a.m., brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â That schooner looks like my 36, plagerized. Van de Stadt designs are also a common origami boat. The temporary outside frames are to appease those who cant get their heads around the fact that the plate edgesÂ define the hull shape, absolutely . Its amazing how few designers actually learned from the success of his methods, and clung with a white fisted grip on 1950s building methods. Any hard chine hull can be built using origami methods. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Tad Roberts also has a Ragsdale Schooner that is an Origami design | 36012|35988|2019-06-20 16:47:28|opuspaul|Re: Modern origami design|If there was a patent given in 1981, that is a joke. Origami methods have been around much longer than that.| 36013|35988|2019-06-20 19:58:11|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1557812762 #ygrps-yiv-1557812762ygrps-yiv-810784581 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Yes it requires the curves of a sailing hull. Flat sided power boats need transverse frames. Decades of cruising ON CERTAIN SMALL BOAT DESIGNS WOULD SEEM TO have proven transverse frames to be completely irrelevant, structurally ON CERTAIN SMALL BOAT DESIGNS. This does nothing to disprove that for certain larger boat designs, consistent with centuries of boat design experience, transverse frames ARE essential structurally. Experienced naval architects may have long suspected, for certain small boat designs, including transverse frames is the equivalent of wearing a belt and suspenders, but they would rather err on the side of caution than go down in history as THAT GUY who screwed by up cutting corners on the wrong design, and never work again. Not just any yahoo with a welder, of unknown skill, can make up a boat geometry from scratch, build it in any material, of any thickness, in an arbitrarily large boat, and expect that, contrary to centuries of boat design, they will do as well as Brent has. This is a credit to what Brent has achieved with his designs. But it cannot be generalized without risk of failure. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 2:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Cables and chins only have to hold the shape until the final shell is together. Then it becomes extremely rigid, due to the monocoque shape,and simple geometry. No frames necessary. Decades of cruising have proven transverse frames to be completely irrelevant ,structurally. That appears to be a hard chine, many-plate without-frame design. I was tempted to assemble a small boat in this way. Note the alignment tabs the hold the abutting plates edge to edge. That is way more welding than a Brent boat, but, the shape can be anything. The photo shows only tension cables and chains holding the shape. One is certain to install something inside... it would be so.much easier to build that and tack plates to it. It is a frame-less build. It does not appear to be an origami in the same sense as Brent's or the designs shown on the Tanton website. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 20:17 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Modern origami design To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com There was this one, but I never heard what happened to it since the website hasn't been updated for years. http://www.origamimagic.com/ Click the link to designs. I think a couple of the 50 footers were built. | 36014|35988|2019-06-20 20:01:07|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|It has been standard sheet metal practice since the ancient Egyptians.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If there was a patent given in 1981, that is a joke. Origami methods have been around much longer than that.| 36015|35988|2019-06-21 18:53:27|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes it requires the curves of a sailing hull. Flat sided power boats need transverse frames. Curves eliminate the need for tranverse framing on the type of boats I design, as over 40 years and over 350,000 miles of ocean cruising ,including severe torture tests have proven beyond all reasonable doubt . When you are working with a heavy material like steel , you cant afford to ignore any advantage shape gives you, to eliminate irrelevant parts. A longitudinal curve is far more effective than transverse framing , which only stiffens the plate a few inches either side of the frame , especially when you use longitudinals to maintain the curve.I see complex framing and irrelevant bits and pieces on plenty of steel boat designs, drastically increasing the weight and expense, while contributing nothing. Armchair experts find thin plate and lots of framing, matches their numbers game . Those with many years of steel boat maintenance prefer thicker plate and less framing. It matches their experienced reality.I met a couple with a Bob Perry designed 37 footer, a steel version of a Tayana 37. Bob calculated the weight at 27,000 lbs. ( while claiming my 36 was too heavy ,at under 20,000 lbs) The owners said it was 36,000 lbs,a mistake of 9,000 lbs, probably due to excessive framing.I once saw plans for a 30 footer with 3,000 lbs of framing, and only 1/8th inch hull plate. That is the equivalent of 3/8th plate and no framing!Designing a good boat in steel requires taking a good look, and understanding how things like shape contribute to stiffness and render a lot of other stiffeners irrelevant. I have seen a lot of boats with gussets along the hull . Support the cabin side , an I beam on edge equivalent , at any two points along it's length ,and those gussets become irrelevant, structurally . Apply this kind of logic thruout the design, and you get a much better, simpler , less expensive and s time consuming, easier to maintain, and lighter .It's the kind of engineering which is defined as " a judicious application of logic." Decades of cruising ON CERTAIN SMALL BOAT DESIGNS WOULD SEEM TO have proven transverse frames to be completely irrelevant, structurally ON CERTAIN SMALL BOAT DESIGNS. This does nothing to disprove that for certain larger boat designs, consistent with centuries of boat design experience, transverse frames ARE essential structurally. Experienced naval architects may have long suspected, for certain small boat designs, including transverse frames is the equivalent of wearing a belt and suspenders, but they would rather err on the side of caution than go down in history as THAT GUY who screwed by up cutting corners on the wrong design, and never work again. Not just any yahoo with a welder, of unknown skill, can make up a boat geometry from scratch, build it in any material, of any thickness, in an arbitrarily large boat, and expect that, contrary to centuries of boat design, they will do as well as Brent has. This is a credit to what Brent has achieved with his designs. But it cannot be generalized without risk of failure. Matt | 36016|36010|2019-06-21 19:01:05|brentswain38|Re: Before I cut open the Keel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems.Hi guysI've got a 36 finn keel.There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun.But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job.....Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place...Sounds easy enuf eh?But, .....1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricatedAnd2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixturesIs the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat?Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8".Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shapeOr....Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we?To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater)Your comments much appreciatedGoing to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there...Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36017|35988|2019-06-21 19:08:46|brentswain38|Re: Modern origami design|Yes, Gary Curtis was making a deal with the Swede ,over licensing. Then he came to visit me. I brought aluminium boat builder Bruce Cope along. I told him we had been building origami since 1979. Bruce said High line aluminium had been building small aluminium work boats that way ,hundreds of them, since the 60s. So Gary told the Swede that trying to enforce a patent which was not valid, is a violation of anti trust laws.He basically told the Swede to fuck off, and we heard no more from him.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If there was a patent given in 1981, that is a joke. Origami methods have been around much longer than that.| 36018|35988|2019-06-21 21:52:52|opuspaul|Re: Modern origami design|The Alia fishing catamarans were first built in the 70s. I think the aluminum version came out in 1978 and used origami techniques with each hull side coming from a single large flat sheet. I loved them....cool boats that can go very fast with a small outboard. I saw them being operated many miles offshore in some very nasty weather.https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-western-samoa-apia-fishing-boats-41402432.htmlGo to page 2.http://coastfish.spc.int/Sections/Development/Samoa_superalia_web.pdfhttps://spccfpstore1.blob.core.windows.net/digitallibrary-docs/files/b1/b16bfbd1266fe1a58b68d225b2b74c7d.pdf?sv=2015-12-11&sr=b&sig=hPqjAiMXsERjOOgW9fQcczP470oLUAsO3S0aSQeq1Ck%3D&se=2019-12-19T01%3A52%3A02Z&sp=r&rscc=public%2C%20max-age%3D864000%2C%20max-stale%3D86400&rsct=application%2Fpdf&rscd=inline%3B%20filename%3D%22FishNews84_18_Chapman.pdf%22---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes, Gary Curtis was making a deal with the Swede ,over licensing. Then he came to visit me. I brought aluminium boat builder Bruce Cope along. I told him we had been building origami since 1979. Bruce said High line aluminium had been building small aluminium work boats that way ,hundreds of them, since the 60s. So Gary told the Swede that trying to enforce a patent which was not valid, is a violation of anti trust laws.He basically told the Swede to fuck off, and we heard no more from him.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :If there was a patent given in 1981, that is a joke. Origami methods have been around much longer than that.| 36019|35988|2019-06-21 22:10:23|opuspaul|Re: Modern origami design|For those interested in small boats, I found the plans here:https://coastfish.spc.int/en/publications/technical-manualsThere a quite a few interesting designs. The Samoa catamaran (SAM-10) is here:http://purl.org/spc/digilib/doc/kpid3I was wrong about it being made from a single sheet. 3 sheets are used with a bend put in the bottom of each one before they are stitched together. The plan for this one is dated Jan 1980.| 36020|35988|2019-06-21 22:41:25|opuspaul|Re: Modern origami design|Sorry to get so far off topic but these kind of fast and cheap to build boats make so much sense. I wouldn't recommendt it but this guy sailed one of the KIR outriggers from Tonga to Fiji.http://www.tackingoutrigger.com/robert_gillet.htmlGary Dierking spent about 2 weeks building a proa on the beach near Savusavu. He tries to go up to Fiji for a few weeks each year to tour around and do some fishing. I think he just went there with some gorilla glue and bought the cheap but good plywood there. Neat idea.http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/search/label/Fiji| 36021|36010|2019-06-22 15:42:14|Rick Jackson|Re: Before I cut open the Keel|Im new to this forum thing,,, and the whole picture issue is too much for me to figure outâ€¦ BUT,,, Im doing exactly what you are, and I cut out most of the keel on one side. I cut so if the steel was good, I could replace,,,except a small mistake.. Anyway, steel was good, so all got grounded to a 45 and prepped to put back in after blasting. Using 6010 for a root weld and 7018 with 2 passes on top of thatâ€¦ I wonâ€™t need to weld inside, but I can if I wanted to. â€¦. My blaster said he would run over a thousand pounds of sand inside, so we cut access holes so it will all run out through the holes in the keelâ€¦ When complete, the whole thing goes back together like a jig saw puzzleâ€¦ Email me if you want a bunch of photos.. Pics are easier to understandâ€¦.Im barely able to follow some of the conversations. Im a visual learnerâ€¦svsalmoneyes@...Rick On Jun 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems.Hi guysI've got a 36 finn keel.There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun.But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job.....Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place...Sounds easy enuf eh?But, ......1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricatedAnd2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixturesIs the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat?Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8".Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shapeOr....Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we?To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater)Your comments much appreciatedGoing to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there...Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36022|36010|2019-06-22 15:43:04|Rick Jackson|Re: Before I cut open the Keel|On Jun 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote:---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems.Hi guysI've got a 36 finn keel.There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun.But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job.....Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place...Sounds easy enuf eh?But, .....1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricatedAnd2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixturesIs the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat?Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8"..Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shapeOr....Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we?To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater)Your comments much appreciatedGoing to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there...Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36023|36023|2019-06-23 11:24:13|SHANE ROTHWELL|Before I cut open the keel|Hey Rick,I'm old to this, the ony forum I watch and like you are completely flumoxed by the photo's setup. Bummer.The last guy to do any sandblasting here used a blasting medium that they were dealing with for years. It stuck to yr shoes & ended up absolutely everywhere. Even the mention, they clench.Planning to show the wonders (& potential money) of wetblasting but frankly not hopeful which leaves me needle gun & grinder.Thanks for sending the photo direct. All good. Where you have opened the whole side I need much less. A hole big enuf to climb inside & needlegun the lot. Then concrete wash after pressure testing (pressure washer w/zero point nozl, look see inside) Like you, can only weld from outside & frankly leery of my welding but the plan is to nail on a coupla hinges on the bottom & open her up like a drawbridge.Access to work, work the piece & hold it in position to replace it.All of the work that I have done has been using SS rod. 309 & 316. Plan to use 309 for all of this.Any pic's would be much appreciated thanksHey Brent,Ya sandblasting.. I wish.But you are the guy who would know if my cutout is going to remain in shape it is coming out?Or is it going to want to return to it's origonal shape, flat, as, when it was assembled the sheet was under tension, being sorta sprung into shape. But there are no seams or any welding within 6" of my cutout..so no heat to 'convince it otherwize' & remain in shape...?Should this be braced beore being cut out?Also, is it alright to use 309 SS rod for all of this?And- so you only bevel one side of the weld area, not both?Thanks LadsSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 8:01 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 2 Messages Digest #5485 1a Re: Before I cut open the Keel by "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... 1b Re: Before I cut open the Keel by "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... Messages 1a Re: Before I cut open the Keel Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:42 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... Im new to this forum thing,,, and the whole picture issue is too much for me to figure outâ€¦ BUT,,, Im doing exactly what you are, and I cut out most of the keel on one side. I cut so if the steel was good, I could replace,,,except a small mistake.. Anyway, steel was good, so all got grounded to a 45 and prepped to put back in after blasting. Using 6010 for a root weld and 7018 with 2 passes on top of thatâ€¦ I wonâ€™t need to weld inside, but I can if I wanted to. â€¦. My blaster said he would run over a thousand pounds of sand inside, so we cut access holes so it will all run out through the holes in the keelâ€¦ When complete, the whole thing goes back together like a jig saw puzzleâ€¦ Email me if you want a bunch of photos.. Pics are easier to understandâ€¦.Im barely able to follow some of the conversations.. Im a visual learnerâ€¦ svsalmoneyes@... Rick > On Jun 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > wrote : > > I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems. > > > Hi guys > I've got a 36 finn keel. > There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun. > > But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job..... > > Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place... > > Sounds easy enuf eh? > > But, ..... > 1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricated > And > 2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixtures > > Is the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat? > > Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8". > > Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shape > > Or.... > > Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we? > To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater) > > Your comments much appreciated > > Going to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there.... > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 1b Re: Before I cut open the Keel Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:43 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... > On Jun 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > wrote : > > I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems. > > > Hi guys > I've got a 36 finn keel. > There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun. > > But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job..... > > Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place... > > Sounds easy enuf eh? > > But, ..... > 1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricated > And > 2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixtures > > Is the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat? > > Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8". > > Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shape > > Or.... > > Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we? > To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater) > > Your comments much appreciated > > Going to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there.... > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group â€¢ Privacy â€¢ Unsubscribe â€¢ Terms of Use | 36024|36023|2019-06-23 18:43:26|Rick Jackson|Re: Before I cut open the keel|I have a boilermaker who works on refineries in the marine environment and he swears by the 6010 for a root pass. Says it burns through the impurities that exist from exposure to sea water. He then does 2 passes wit 7018. The way we do it prevents the need from welding inside as the root pass will be full penetration. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2019, at 8:24 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Hey Rick,I'm old to this, the ony forum I watch and like you are completely flumoxed by the photo's setup. Bummer.The last guy to do any sandblasting here used a blasting medium that they were dealing with for years. It stuck to yr shoes & ended up absolutely everywhere. Even the mention, they clench.Planning to show the wonders (& potential money) of wetblasting but frankly not hopeful which leaves me needle gun & grinder.Thanks for sending the photo direct. All good. Where you have opened the whole side I need much less. A hole big enuf to climb inside & needlegun the lot. Then concrete wash after pressure testing (pressure washer w/zero point nozl, look see inside) Like you, can only weld from outside & frankly leery of my welding but the plan is to nail on a coupla hinges on the bottom & open her up like a drawbridge.Access to work, work the piece & hold it in position to replace it.All of the work that I have done has been using SS rod. 309 & 316. Plan to use 309 for all of this.Any pic's would be much appreciated thanksHey Brent,Ya sandblasting.. I wish.But you are the guy who would know if my cutout is going to remain in shape it is coming out?Or is it going to want to return to it's origonal shape, flat, as, when it was assembled the sheet was under tension, being sorta sprung into shape. But there are no seams or any welding within 6" of my cutout..so no heat to 'convince it otherwize' & remain in shape...?Should this be braced beore being cut out?Also, is it alright to use 309 SS rod for all of this?And- so you only bevel one side of the weld area, not both?Thanks LadsSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 8:01 PM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 2 Messages Digest #5485 1a Re: Before I cut open the Keel by "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... 1b Re: Before I cut open the Keel by "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... Messages 1a Re: Before I cut open the Keel Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:42 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... Im new to this forum thing,,, and the whole picture issue is too much for me to figure outâ€¦ BUT,,, Im doing exactly what you are, and I cut out most of the keel on one side. I cut so if the steel was good, I could replace,,,except a small mistake.. Anyway, steel was good, so all got grounded to a 45 and prepped to put back in after blasting. Using 6010 for a root weld and 7018 with 2 passes on top of thatâ€¦ I wonâ€™t need to weld inside, but I can if I wanted to. â€¦. My blaster said he would run over a thousand pounds of sand inside, so we cut access holes so it will all run out through the holes in the keelâ€¦ When complete, the whole thing goes back together like a jig saw puzzleâ€¦ Email me if you want a bunch of photos.. Pics are easier to understandâ€¦.Im barely able to follow some of the conversations... Im a visual learnerâ€¦ svsalmoneyes@... Rick > On Jun 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > wrote : > > I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems. > > > Hi guys > I've got a 36 finn keel. > There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun. > > But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun.......& do a propper prep job..... > > Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place... > > Sounds easy enuf eh? > > But, ..... > 1...as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricated > And > 2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixtures > > Is the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat? > > Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8". > > Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shape > > Or.... > > Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we? > To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater) > > Your comments much appreciated > > Going to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there.... > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ 1b Re: Before I cut open the Keel Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:43 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "Rick Jackson" svsalmoneyes@... > On Jun 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, brentswain38@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > > > > ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > wrote : > > I once had to sand blast a tank like that. I cut out a 6 inch by 12 inch piece out of the back corner of the tank. That let me blast it while blowing the excess sand out the hole. Then, I blasted the cut out piece, ground a 45 degree bevel on the outside edges, for full weld penetration, welded it back in, and blasted the weld. Can't think of any other way I could have done it well .No problems. > > > Hi guys > I've got a 36 finn keel. > There are 2 tanks. The keeltop tank that rides forward atop the ballast, and the maintank which rides aft end of the keel, is about twice the size of the keeltop, goes right to the bottom of the keel and the bummer is, it also has the wet bildge let into it. Yes I know there is no other place to put the wet bildge but when the tank is 55" deep with access from the top only and the tank is 30 year old & has been used for water, but also neglected with small areas of paint failure & erupting rust. Right pig to remove but no choice bit for the needle gun. > > But how do you get at the bottom of the wet buildge on the fresh water side..inside the tank? To needle gun......& do a propper prep job..... > > Only thing I can think of is to cut a hatch out the side of the keel & before I snip the last few little tacks holding it on place, heavily tack a coupla hinges in place to ease re-allignment & hold whilst I tack it back in place.... > > Sounds easy enuf eh? > > But, ..... > 1..as the steel was bent into shape & secured under tension when fabricated > And > 2. I am cutting material that has no framing, seams or fixtures > > Is the plate/section that I cut out going to want to returnto its origonal shape, boinnnnnng & she goes flat? > > Reason being that the hatch I want to cut is 28" high X 20" fore &aft. Put a straight edge to any end of the 20" & can measure curvature of about 1 & 3/8". > > Do I need to tack & shim angle iron to hold shape whilst the hatch is open. To hold the shape > > Or.... > > Cut it all out leaving just very small tangs of material, just enough to hold it in shape & hopefully not transferr too much heat whilst we heat it up with a tiger torch. Recoating both sides of the material anyway. Wouldn't have to heat it too hot would we? > To "relax" any memory? This is annealing isn't it? Hopefully none of this nÃ¨eded but don't need any suprizes. (Daunted enough by welding a big patch underwater) > > Your comments much appreciated > > Going to bring the tanks right back to steel. Clean but not bright. Then use straight Portland cement & plain water about the consistancy of thick soup. Apply to dry steel. Recoat annually. Easy & cheap but getting there.... > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (4) . Top ^ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Visit Your Group â€¢ Privacy â€¢ Unsubscribe â€¢ Terms of Use | 36025|36023|2019-06-23 18:53:02|brentswain38|Re: Before I cut open the keel|No, your keel wont change shape down there. Not much curve or tension.Use 5/32 , 6011 rods. 7018 are hard to weld with, and easy to screw up on.Don't use stainless down there.All of the work that I have done has been using SS rod. 309 & 316. Plan to use 309 for all of this.Hey Brent,Ya sandblasting.. I wish.But you are the guy who would know if my cutout is going to remain in shape it is coming out?Or is it going to want to return to it's origonal shape, flat, as, when it was assembled the sheet was under tension, being sorta sprung into shape. But there are no seams or any welding within 6" of my cutout..so no heat to 'convince it otherwize' & remain in shape...?Should this be braced beore being cut out?Also, is it alright to use 309 SS rod for all of this?And- so you only bevel one side of the weld area, not both?Thanks Lads| 36026|36023|2019-06-23 19:10:04|brentswain38|Re: Before I cut open the keel|6010 is a DC rod , 6011 AC. A friend hired a couple of highly qualified pulp mill welders, who whined and complained about his welder. So he rented a couple of gas driven DC welders, at considerable expense, to keep them happy. Later ,an equally qualified welder used his AC buzzbox, and loved it . The first guys, for all their paper qualifications, simply didn't know that 6010 is a DC rod. 6011 an AC rod, does the same thing ,on AC. When I worked for Great West Steel , AC 7018s weren't invented yet, they insisted we use all 7018. I had only an AC welder to use. So I did as I was told ,cut open one weld, and it looked like an aero bar inside, full of bubbles, but they passed it. Did one in 7024, on mild steel , and they rejected it, even tho it was bubble free, and clean . Numbers were more important than reality.Some say 7018 is stronger. The 70 in both 7018 and 7024 is the tensile strength, the same strength for both, in mild steel. You only get the benefit of 7018 on harder, high carbon steel ( low hydrogen rod )| 36027|36023|2019-06-23 19:30:53|Matt Malone|Re: Before I cut open the keel| How would they qualify for papers as a professional welder and not know that? There are actually exams to pass to get those papers. The purpose of the papers are to distinguish between a goof who can hold a stinger but has big gaps in their knowledge and the people one wants to hire to make consistent quality and consistently competent joints. There was a failure in the testing or someone failed to ask to see their qualification papers relevant to this job. Maybe they were factory piping gas tig welders and never bothered to qualify in stick, and took a job working outside their competence. Maybe the buzzbox welder does nothing but stick, papered or not, he would not get much work if he was bad at the only thing he does. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, June 23, 19:11 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Before I cut open the keel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 6010 is a DC rod , 6011 AC. A friend hired a couple of highly qualified pulp mill welders, who whined and complained about his welder. So he rented a couple of gas driven DC welders, at considerable expense, to keep them happy. Later ,an equally qualified welder used his AC buzzbox, and loved it . The first guys, for all their paper qualifications, simply didn't know that 6010 is a DC rod. 6011 an AC rod, does the same thing ,on AC. When I worked for Great West Steel , AC 7018s weren't invented yet, they insisted we use all 7018. I had only an AC welder to use. So I did as I was told ,cut open one weld, and it looked like an aero bar inside, full of bubbles, but they passed it. Did one in 7024, on mild steel , and they rejected it, even tho it was bubble free, and clean . Numbers were more important than reality. Some say 7018 is stronger. The 70 in both 7018 and 7024 is the tensile strength, the same strength for both, in mild steel. You only get the benefit of 7018 on harder, high carbon steel ( low hydrogen rod ) | 36028|36023|2019-06-23 22:37:57|opuspaul|Re: Before I cut open the keel|You would be amazed. When I worked overseas, I met an avionics engineer that had 3 year degree from a university in Thailand that had no understanding about how a capacitor worked.When I queried him on it, he said (with no shame) that the instructor just told them the answers the day before the tests. On paper, he was qualified up the yin yang but in the real world he was lost.I have also seen people just grandfathered in with their tickets. They are very skilled ant talented at their job but only done one thing their entire lives. Throw anything new at them and they are screwed.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : How would they qualify for papers as a professional welder and not know that? There are actually exams to pass to get those papers. The purpose of the papers are to distinguish between a goof who can hold a stinger but has big gaps in their knowledge and the people one wants to hire to make consistent quality and consistently competent joints. There was a failure in the testing or someone failed to ask to see their qualification papers relevant to this job. Maybe they were factory piping gas tig welders and never bothered to qualify in stick, and took a job working outside their competence. Maybe the buzzbox welder does nothing but stick, papered or not, he would not get much work if he was bad at the only thing he does. Matt | 36029|36023|2019-06-23 23:19:09|Matt Malone|Re: Before I cut open the keel| #ygrps-yiv-993257494 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} How about an electrical engineer who did not know what a BNC connector was -- it is the connector on the front of every oscilloscope that they should have seen in about 50+ labs from 1st year on. Also not western trained. Yes, who knows what passes. I was thinking about western trained who actually passed the tests and got their papers. Then again, I shared a house with a physics grad for a year. He must have taken every bird course he could and avoided all the tough subjects to find a path to a degree. We were sitting outside one night and I pointed out a planet -- he had no idea, never studied astronomy or any celestial mechanics. Talked to him about every field of physics I had studied, and he still had no idea. So I asked him, what physics did he study and he said "general physics". He was working as a paperboy. At least in Canada that is not possible for engineers -- the engineering programs have few electives, and every program has to be accredited by Engineers Canada. Then one must work under a licensed engineer for 4 years (Ontario), pass 2 exams, and have one's work experience evaluated. Only then may one become licenced -- 8 years post-secondary. In the US, the tests are more extensive, the licence is more restrictive. Similarly in the trades, I have known people who take courses for 2-3 years while apprenticing to get a ticket as a journeyman plumber, electrician or a G-3 (residential) gas fitter. Their programs are no joke. But sure, there are people still working who were grandfathered in. I would not assume incompetence when I see a piece of paper though -- the core of every one of Brent's stories. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2019 10:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Before I cut open the keel You would be amazed. When I worked overseas, I met an avionics engineer that had 3 year degree from a university in Thailand that had no understanding about how a capacitor worked. When I queried him on it, he said (with no shame) that the instructor just told them the answers the day before the tests. On paper, he was qualified up the yin yang but in the real world he was lost. I have also seen people just grandfathered in with their tickets. They are very skilled ant talented at their job but only done one thing their entire lives. Throw anything new at them and they are screwed. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : How would they qualify for papers as a professional welder and not know that? There are actually exams to pass to get those papers. The purpose of the papers are to distinguish between a goof who can hold a stinger but has big gaps in their knowledge and the people one wants to hire to make consistent quality and consistently competent joints. There was a failure in the testing or someone failed to ask to see their qualification papers relevant to this job. Maybe they were factory piping gas tig welders and never bothered to qualify in stick, and took a job working outside their competence. Maybe the buzzbox welder does nothing but stick, papered or not, he would not get much work if he was bad at the only thing he does. Matt | 36030|36023|2019-06-24 11:30:25|garyhlucas|Re: Before I cut open the keel|Origamiboats - Frameless steel and aluminum yachts This is what I learned for pipe welding 40 years ago, for the reasons he said. Gary H. Lucas609-647-0450Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2019 2:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Before I cut open the keel I have a boilermaker who works on refineries in the marine environment and he swears by the 6010 for a root pass. Says it burns through the impurities that exist from exposure to sea water. He then does 2 passes wit 7018. The way we do it prevents the need from welding inside as the root pass will be full penetration. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2019, at 8:24 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: | 36031|36023|2019-06-24 16:16:22|Rick Jackson|Re: Before I cut open the keel|In my case, my guy is certified, and works in the marine environment. I have a DC welder so he called out 6010.. I got him much cheaper than normal because I get him a lot of work, and he is using all my equipment which I bought new just for this project.. ( good used equipment will be for sale when we are done)â€¦ Per my guyâ€¦. Metal in the marine environment, especially under water, has many contaminants, and the 6010, for us, 6011 for AC I assume as well, will burn that out and create a base for stronger weldsâ€¦ All of our joints are ground out heavy, and each weld gets 3 passes. 1 root pass with the 6010, and 2 with the 7018.. All the 7018 is stored properly and any broke pieces get chuckedâ€¦ I have been around welders for 40 years and never seen this quality of welding. Then again, never worked with a certified boilermakerâ€¦..As for papersâ€¦. My guy is in his 40s, his dad was a boiler maker, he is a boiler maker, and his kid is right there too (without certification) as he wants to be something else, but he is well trained and can weld better than most welders I knowâ€¦. My general contractor background taught me every situation needs to be looked at without prejudice. The young kid with out his Boilermaker certs would make a great welder when the budget calls for it. In my case,,, he is only doing the prep work, but if his pops couldnâ€™t be there, I would not think twice about letting him weldâ€¦.Rick On Jun 23, 2019, at 4:30 PM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:How would they qualify for papers as a professional welder and not know that? There are actually exams to pass to get those papers. The purpose of the papers are to distinguish between a goof who can hold a stinger but has big gaps in their knowledge and the people one wants to hire to make consistent quality and consistently competent joints. There was a failure in the testing or someone failed to ask to see their qualification papers relevant to this job. Maybe they were factory piping gas tig welders and never bothered to qualify in stick, and took a job working outside their competence. Maybe the buzzbox welder does nothing but stick, papered or not, he would not get much work if he was bad at the only thing he does.MattFrom: brentswain38@... [origamiboats]Sent: Sunday, June 23, 19:11Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Before I cut open the keelTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com6010 is a DC rod , 6011 AC. A friend hired a couple of highly qualified pulp mill welders, who whined and complained about his welder. So he rented a couple of gas driven DC welders, at considerable expense, to keep them happy. Later ,an equally qualified welder used his AC buzzbox, and loved it . The first guys, for all their paper qualifications, simply didn't know that 6010 is a DC rod. 6011 an AC rod, does the same thing ,on AC. When I worked for Great West Steel , AC 7018s weren't invented yet, they insisted we use all 7018. I had only an AC welder to use. So I did as I was told ,cut open one weld, and it looked like an aero bar inside, full of bubbles, but they passed it. Did one in 7024, on mild steel , and they rejected it, even tho it was bubble free, and clean . Numbers were more important than reality.Some say 7018 is stronger. The 70 in both 7018 and 7024 is the tensile strength, the same strength for both, in mild steel. You only get the benefit of 7018 on harder, high carbon steel ( low hydrogen rod )| 36032|36023|2019-06-24 16:19:21|brentswain38|Re: Before I cut open the keel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :When I first began working in BC steel shops, th e guy giving the welding test was not a welder , just a hack, with political connections. How would they qualify for papers as a professional welder and not know that? There are actually exams to pass to get those papers. The purpose of the papers are to distinguish between a goof who can hold a stinger but has big gaps in their knowledge and the people one wants to hire to make consistent quality and consistently competent joints. There was a failure in the testing or someone failed to ask to see their qualification papers relevant to this job. Maybe they were factory piping gas tig welders and never bothered to qualify in stick, and took a job working outside their competence. Maybe the buzzbox welder does nothing but stick, papered or not, he would not get much work if he was bad at the only thing he does. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, June 23, 19:11 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Before I cut open the keel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 6010 is a DC rod , 6011 AC. A friend hired a couple of highly qualified pulp mill welders, who whined and complained about his welder. So he rented a couple of gas driven DC welders, at considerable expense, to keep them happy. Later ,an equally qualified welder used his AC buzzbox, and loved it . The first guys, for all their paper qualifications, simply didn't know that 6010 is a DC rod. 6011 an AC rod, does the same thing ,on AC. When I worked for Great West Steel , AC 7018s weren't invented yet, they insisted we use all 7018. I had only an AC welder to use. So I did as I was told ,cut open one weld, and it looked like an aero bar inside, full of bubbles, but they passed it. Did one in 7024, on mild steel , and they rejected it, even tho it was bubble free, and clean . Numbers were more important than reality. Some say 7018 is stronger. The 70 in both 7018 and 7024 is the tensile strength, the same strength for both, in mild steel. You only get the benefit of 7018 on harder, high carbon steel ( low hydrogen rod ) | 36033|36023|2019-06-24 16:41:54|brentswain38|Re: Before I cut open the keel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :How about the world famous yacht designer, who has never cruised extensively, never cruised offshore, never lived aboard, never maintained a boat long term, never built a boat, and admitted he was totally useless at building anything, who charges $175 an hour for advice on such matters .His steel boat knowledge is zero ,but he claims to have more expertise on the subject, than someone who has put together over 3 dozen, all successful, over 40 years plus,and who has made 9 singlehanded Pacific crossings, and lived aboard and maintained steel boats over 40 years. And people still believe and pay him..When I lost my first boat, I went to work as detail fabricator, Up til then, there were no papers for that ,and they were just starting to do apprenticeships and paper qualifications.I met smart kid, who was just beginning an apprenticeship . Most fitters in the shop had no papers, just knew the job.I told him 'If you cant figure this out in 6 months, you never will .it's extremly simple.Work here for 6 months, hire on elsewhere as a fitter for 3 years , make journeyman's wages of 3 years, then take the test. "He went the cheap labour route, instead.I clued in, that I should have been doing their jobs, for their wages.| 36034|36023|2019-06-24 16:50:00|brentswain38|Re: Before I cut open the keel|:You could tack some flat bars on edge, across the front seam, on the ,outside ,to keep it straight while welding it , then push the back in,. weld it, then break the flat bars off.You really shot yourself in the foot ,by not getting along with your welder helper. Cost you a year.Maybe it's no too late to set that right.No, your keel wont change shape down there. Not much curve or tension.Use 5/32 , 6011 rods. 7018 are hard to weld with, and easy to screw up on.Don't use stainless down there.All of the work that I have done has been using SS rod. 309 & 316. Plan to use 309 for all of this.Hey Brent,Ya sandblasting.. I wish.But you are the guy who would know if my cutout is going to remain in shape it is coming out?Or is it going to want to return to it's origonal shape, flat, as, when it was assembled the sheet was under tension, being sorta sprung into shape. But there are no seams or any welding within 6" of my cutout..so no heat to 'convince it otherwize' & remain in shape...?Should this be braced beore being cut out?Also, is it alright to use 309 SS rod for all of this?And- so you only bevel one side of the weld area, not both?Thanks Lads| 36035|13189|2019-06-26 15:06:37|svsalmoneyes@gmail.com|water tanks|On the fence... Build integral steel water tanks and coat or build removable stainless tanks.... | 36036|36036|2019-06-26 15:07:05|svsalmoneyes@gmail.com|Dry exhaust (again?)|Ok,,, Full transparency,,, I did not want to post this question.... However... Of the many projects we have going, the dry exhaust idea needs my attention soon. If it can be done safely, and functionally, Im all in... The run from the amidship mounted 4BT is 14 to 16 feet more or less, depending on the run, through the main state room. Boat has a raised poop deck so there is room to bury run in the hull with rubber mounts. My questions about the system is how should it be run?Should the run constantly rise to the stern?Does it matter?Can it run out the side with modifications?should it be close to the water?Does that matter?There really is nothing on the net that really unveils those little details. Rick| 36037|13189|2019-06-26 15:21:55|brentswain38|Re: water tanks|A friend with a single keel 36 went for stainless tanks. The problem is, you cant see or deal with the space between the stainless and the steel, until there is a big, unseen problem, suddenly emerging, by surprise.I do built in tanks with a big enough inspection plate to let me stick my head in, and reach, within arms length, every sq inch of the tank inside. A plexi port in the inspection plate lets me see inside the tank any time, by simply lifting a floor board.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On the fence... Build integral steel water tanks and coat or build removable stainless tanks.... | 36038|36036|2019-06-26 15:23:51|brentswain38|Re: Dry exhaust (again?)|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sail boat or power ? Power boats don't heel, so running it out the side is practical, Make a, " high as you can" loop inside, just before running it out.Ditto a transom exit.Wrapping the exhaust with fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then siliconing it with cheap silicone caulking, makes it cool to the ,after days of motoring in the tropics. That gives you a 4 inch OD, for a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe, which you can snap sheet metal stove pipe over, for straight runs. Going one size bigger on the pipe, drastically reduces temperature.Ok,,, Full transparency,,, I did not want to post this question.... However... Of the many projects we have going, the dry exhaust idea needs my attention soon. If it can be done safely, and functionally, Im all in... The run from the amidship mounted 4BT is 14 to 16 feet more or less, depending on the run, through the main state room. Boat has a raised poop deck so there is room to bury run in the hull with rubber mounts. My questions about the system is how should it be run?Should the run constantly rise to the stern?Does it matter?Can it run out the side with modifications?should it be close to the water?Does that matter?There really is nothing on the net that really unveils those little details. Rick| 36039|13189|2019-06-26 16:14:59|opuspaul|Re: water tanks|I am with Brent. I would definitely go with built in tanks. Not only is it much cheaper and easier, the tanks will be larger and they won't give you the problems of SS tanks which often get pin hole leaks or cracks. My friend's wooden boat had 4 SS tanks. After 20 years of cruising, only one was left that didn't leak. This is much more common than people think and trying to remove tanks that have been built in to a boat can be a major job.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A friend with a single keel 36 went for stainless tanks. The problem is, you cant see or deal with the space between the stainless and the steel, until there is a big, unseen problem, suddenly emerging, by surprise.I do built in tanks with a big enough inspection plate to let me stick my head in, and reach, within arms length, every sq inch of the tank inside. A plexi port in the inspection plate lets me see inside the tank any time, by simply lifting a floor board.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :On the fence... Build integral steel water tanks and coat or build removable stainless tanks.... | 36040|36036|2019-06-26 16:19:01|opuspaul|Re: Dry exhaust (again?)|If it is a sailboat, can't you run it to a T and then go out both sides?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sail boat or power ? Power boats don't heel, so running it out the side is practical, Make a, " high as you can" loop inside, just before running it out.Ditto a transom exit.Wrapping the exhaust with fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then siliconing it with cheap silicone caulking, makes it cool to the ,after days of motoring in the tropics. That gives you a 4 inch OD, for a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe, which you can snap sheet metal stove pipe over, for straight runs. Going one size bigger on the pipe, drastically reduces temperature.| 36041|36041|2019-06-27 11:14:10|SHANE ROTHWELL|Water Tanks|Or take Brent's suggestion a bit further & Make the covers as big as possible so you can climb in for full access to work on the tank. Makes a tremendous differance. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36042|36042|2019-06-27 11:55:59|SHANE ROTHWELL|Before I Cut into the Keel...DUH!|Winston did it again.A Brentboat is not exactly a spacious vessel. It took me 3 days to figure how to get into the engine "room", a 3 step contorsion. Awkward, but possible.The spatal immigry in desing impressive as hell. Figuring it out sometime takes a while.....And, when was the last time you saw any of Brent's designs needing sergery for maintainance? Like underside of the wet bildge to properly clean & maintain the keel tank?Yes it is a good thing I am skinny, and you only have to dislocate one hip enter, but it IS possible!!!Saves heaps of bs & hasstle. Thanks for your input gentlemen. I'm feeling pretty good about this one as I'd rather look a bit foolish than do the deed & make it an irrifutable fact.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36043|36042|2019-06-27 22:02:23|opuspaul|Re: Before I Cut into the Keel...DUH!| Shane, I should know this but what boat do you have? Is it one of Winston Bushnell's old boats?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Winston did it again.A Brentboat is not exactly a spacious vessel. It took me 3 days to figure how to get into the engine "room", a 3 step contorsion. Awkward, but possible.The spatal immigry in desing impressive as hell. Figuring it out sometime takes a while.....And, when was the last time you saw any of Brent's designs needing sergery for maintainance? Like underside of the wet bildge to properly clean & maintain the keel tank?Yes it is a good thing I am skinny, and you only have to dislocate one hip enter, but it IS possible!!!Saves heaps of bs & hasstle. Thanks for your input gentlemen. I'm feeling pretty good about this one as I'd rather look a bit foolish than do the deed & make it an irrifutable fact.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36044|36042|2019-06-28 10:21:32|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Before I Cut into the Keel...DUH!|Yes PaulIt's Winston & Carole's Dove II. A 36' Finn keelSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36045|36042|2019-06-28 19:26:53|opuspaul|Re: Before I Cut into the Keel...DUH!|Thanks Shane. I saw Dove II when she was being built in Nanaimo. Winston treated me really well and helped convince me to build one of Brent's boats.Best of luck, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Yes PaulIt's Winston & Carole's Dove II. A 36' Finn keelSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36046|36046|2019-06-28 20:25:44|aguysailing|Hand Held Sand Blaster|Anyone actually use one of these on a Swain yet? They look ideal for touch up jobs but the last thing I want to buy is useless junk. There seems to be a lot of them on the market.| 36047|36046|2019-06-28 20:46:54|opuspaul|Re: Hand Held Sand Blaster|I have one of the following. It is convenient but a bit of a toy. I would only use it on small parts or touch ups. It also only works well when held vertically. https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/18-oz-hopper-gravity-feed-abrasive-spot-blaster-gun/A-p8140709eSand blasters are relatively cheap. But any big job demands a big compressor and that is where the cost come in. Waterblasting with a sand attachment might be a cheaper option.Check out Doug's videos and site if you haven't already. A lot of good information there:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnUim-gNMI&list=PL83F7E1FAE61B9AE4https://www.svseeker.com/wp/sv-seeker-2/sailboat/sand-blasting/| 36048|13189|2019-06-28 21:08:11|aguysailing|Re: water tanks|I am using a Platismo flexible water tank. 44 gals right now at Binnacle for $150. Smaller if you want. Good over 12 yrs now. Simple take out in minutes for cleaning. Keep mine up front under the v birth locker ...| 36049|36046|2019-06-28 21:21:42|aguysailing|Re: Hand Held Sand Blaster|I actually have one but it looks like a toy so I will dig it out and give it a go. Anything extra I need for it such (I do see it needs a hose connector, size?)....and what about the tip reliability? Home Hardware here in BC sells crushed glass pretty cheap... thinking of that route. ... thanksGary| 36050|36046|2019-06-28 21:35:45|opuspaul|Re: Hand Held Sand Blaster|I use mine with a standard garage air compressor. You can only use it for a minute or so since they use so much air. Even then the compressor will get a real workout. I haven't used it enough to worry about any tips...like I said, it is a bit of a toy.| 36051|36046|2019-06-28 22:35:45|aguysailing|Re: Hand Held Sand Blaster|Given this "toy", I think I will wire wheel off as much paint as I can and then go over with the sand blaster using crushed glass to get at missed parts and to roughen up the surface for painting.| 36052|36036|2019-06-30 16:07:41|Rick Jackson|Re: Dry exhaust (again?)|This is an Idea Iâ€™m playing with.. As Brent mentioned, Im sure both sides have to have a loop above the water line... On Jun 26, 2019, at 1:18 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:If it is a sailboat, can't you run it to a T and then go out both sides?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sail boat or power ? Power boats don't heel, so running it out the side is practical, Make a, " high as you can" loop inside, just before running it out.Ditto a transom exit.Wrapping the exhaust with fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then siliconing it with cheap silicone caulking, makes it cool to the ,after days of motoring in the tropics. That gives you a 4 inch OD, for a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe, which you can snap sheet metal stove pipe over, for straight runs. Going one size bigger on the pipe, drastically reduces temperature.| 36053|13189|2019-06-30 16:08:06|Rick Jackson|Re: water tanks|Just got a price from a company to build a custom 120 gallon v shape tank with baffles, and inspection covers. $3200.00.. Going integral steelâ€¦ The tank only needs a top and front in my location and the main engine room bulkhead will serve as part of the tank..Rick On Jun 28, 2019, at 6:08 PM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:I am using a Platismo flexible water tank. 44 gals right now at Binnacle for $150. Smaller if you want. Good over 12 yrs now. Simple take out in minutes for cleaning. Keep mine up front under the v birth locker ...| 36054|36046|2019-06-30 16:11:10|brentswain38|Re: Hand Held Sand Blaster|Several of us in the bay here could chip in for a 5 hp compressor for a week. I have the siphon blaster.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Given this "toy", I think I will wire wheel off as much paint as I can and then go over with the sand blaster using crushed glass to get at missed parts and to roughen up the surface for painting.| 36055|36042|2019-06-30 16:16:06|brentswain38|Re: Before I Cut into the Keel...DUH!|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : A wheelhouse drastically increases interior space on a 36 . .Shane, I should know this but what boat do you have? Is it one of Winston Bushnell's old boats?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Winston did it again.A Brentboat is not exactly a spacious vessel. It took me 3 days to figure how to get into the engine "room", a 3 step contorsion. Awkward, but possible.The spatal immigry in desing impressive as hell. Figuring it out sometime takes a while.....And, when was the last time you saw any of Brent's designs needing sergery for maintainance? Like underside of the wet bildge to properly clean & maintain the keel tank?Yes it is a good thing I am skinny, and you only have to dislocate one hip enter, but it IS possible!!!Saves heaps of bs & hasstle. Thanks for your input gentlemen. I'm feeling pretty good about this one as I'd rather look a bit foolish than do the deed & make it an irrifutable fact.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36056|36056|2019-07-01 16:17:15|svsalmoneyes@gmail.com|Best book for steel boat building|I need to find a book that outlines the finishing parts like best place for winches, genoa tracks, hatches etc. Rick| 36057|36036|2019-07-03 19:27:05|Zoa Scott|Re: Dry exhaust (again?)|As far as your engine is concerned the shorter the run the better.There will be a spec from cummins for exhaust sizing and backpressure allowed .Cummins actually has a great marine installation booklet that is most likely online somewhere .Install a quarter inch pipe port in your elbow so u can easily measure backpressure .Nice thing to have.Good choice on engine . On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 12:09 PM svsalmoneyes@gmail..com [origamiboats], wrote: Â Ok,,, Full transparency,,, I did not want to post this question.... However... Of the many projects we have going, the dry exhaust idea needs my attention soon..Â Â If it can be done safely, and functionally, Im all in...Â The run from the amidship mounted 4BT is 14 to 16 feet more or less, depending on the run, through the main state room.Â Boat has a raised poop deck so there is room to bury run in the hull with rubber mounts.Â My questions about the system is how should it be run?Should the run constantly rise to the stern?Does it matter?Can it run out the side with modifications?should it be close to the water?Does that matter?There really is nothing on the net that really unveils those little details.Â Â Rick | 36058|36056|2019-07-03 19:32:23|brentswain38|Re: Best book for steel boat building|Don't spot weld a genoa track on a steel deck,. a big mistake. Once rust begins under it , it is impossible to deal with.On my boats, the bulwark cap is the genoa track. No need for anything on the deck.Replacing the metal under winches with stainless is a good idea.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I need to find a book that outlines the finishing parts like best place for winches, genoa tracks, hatches etc. Rick| 36059|36056|2019-07-03 20:43:08|opuspaul|Re: Best book for steel boat building|The gunwhale sheet attachments work really well on a relatively narrow boat like the 36. The staysail goes to the edge of the cabin top. This is great since the decks are kept clear with no toe-stubbers.I would buy Brent's book if you haven't already. There are a lot of gems that will more than make up for the cost of the book. I wish it was available when I was building my boat.I also found "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson to be quite good.https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Rigs-Rigging-Richard-Henderson/dp/0071563040The classics from Eric Hiscock and Donald Street are also very good.https://www.amazon.com/Cruising-Under-Sail-Incorporating-Voyaging/dp/0192175998/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=eric+hiscock&qid=1562200850&s=books&sr=1-5https://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Sailing-Yacht-Donald-Street/dp/0393031683/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=donald+street&qid=1562200893&s=books&sr=1-1---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Don't spot weld a genoa track on a steel deck,. a big mistake. Once rust begins under it , it is impossible to deal with.On my boats, the bulwark cap is the genoa track. No need for anything on the deck.Replacing the metal under winches with stainless is a good idea.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I need to find a book that outlines the finishing parts like best place for winches, genoa tracks, hatches etc. Rick| 36060|36056|2019-07-03 21:21:35|opuspaul|Re: Best book for steel boat building|Regarding the Hiscocks....anybody who has gone around the world 3 times should know what works.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_and_Susan_HiscockThe thing I like about the classic books is that they show low tech and common sense solutions that work. The people sailing back then weren't interested in if something was shiny or new. All they cared about was if it worked. They were often on a budget, independent and self sufficient. They knew that they were on their own and that there was no helicopter waiting for them to pick them up as soon as they triggered their EPIRB at the first time something went wrong. Also, most of their voyaging happened before the yachtie magazines became the commercial whores they are now, only interested in marketing shiny and expensive gear.| 36061|36056|2019-07-04 18:49:47|brentswain38|Re: Best book for steel boat building|Bernard Moitessier's books ,"The long Way " and "Cape Horn the Logical Route " make this clear.He had telephone poles for masts, and cable clamps on soft eyes and hounds for rigging. Anything but "yottie,"But in two circumnavigations in high southern latitudes, via Cape Horn, he had zero failures,and was relatively dry and comfortable, a huge contrast to those doing it in "Yottie priority" boats.Industrial style works !People read his books, but that message misses them completely ,and anyone advocating such practicality, gets trolled, piled on, and banned from most sites, catering to the interests of their sponsors, who are selling 'Yottieness."---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Regarding the Hiscocks....anybody who has gone around the world 3 times should know what works.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_and_Susan_HiscockThe thing I like about the classic books is that they show low tech and common sense solutions that work. The people sailing back then weren't interested in if something was shiny or new. All they cared about was if it worked. They were often on a budget, independent and self sufficient. They knew that they were on their own and that there was no helicopter waiting for them to pick them up as soon as they triggered their EPIRB at the first time something went wrong. Also, most of their voyaging happened before the yachtie magazines became the commercial whores they are now, only interested in marketing shiny and expensive gear.| 36062|36056|2019-07-04 20:32:13|opuspaul|Re: Best book for steel boat building|I forgot about Moitessier. The appendix in one of them (I think it was "The Long Way") has a lot of good info, particularly on sail design.Some of the Pardey's books are good too. I thought Storm Tactics was a very good book.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Bernard Moitessier's books ,"The long Way " and "Cape Horn the Logical Route " make this clear.He had telephone poles for masts, and cable clamps on soft eyes and hounds for rigging. Anything but "yottie,"But in two circumnavigations in high southern latitudes, via Cape Horn, he had zero failures,and was relatively dry and comfortable, a huge contrast to those doing it in "Yottie priority" boats.Industrial style works !People read his books, but that message misses them completely ,and anyone advocating such practicality, gets trolled, piled on, and banned from most sites, catering to the interests of their sponsors, who are selling 'Yottieness."| 36063|36056|2019-07-06 03:51:25|dejongralph|Re: Best book for steel boat building|How not to build a boat (A morale tale) by Jill Dicken Schinas"At last, the truth about steel boat building" - Nick Staetes, designer of the Wylo IIISBN 978-0-9560722-2-1After reading every classic and less classic, and eight years back yard boat building my BS36, this book is a treatRalph| 36064|36056|2019-07-06 16:57:10|Rick Jackson|Re: Best book for steel boat building|Brents Book? I will PM himâ€¦â€¦..Thanks On Jul 3, 2019, at 5:43 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:The gunwhale sheet attachments work really well on a relatively narrow boat like the 36. The staysail goes to the edge of the cabin top. This is great since the decks are kept clear with no toe-stubbers.I would buy Brent's book if you haven't already. There are a lot of gems that will more than make up for the cost of the book. I wish it was available when I was building my boat.I also found "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson to be quite good.https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Rigs-Rigging-Richard-Henderson/dp/0071563040The classics from Eric Hiscock and Donald Street are also very good.https://www.amazon.com/Cruising-Under-Sail-Incorporating-Voyaging/dp/0192175998/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=eric+hiscock&qid=1562200850&s=books&sr=1-5https://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Sailing-Yacht-Donald-Street/dp/0393031683/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=donald+street&qid=1562200893&s=books&sr=1-1---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Don't spot weld a genoa track on a steel deck,. a big mistake. Once rust begins under it , it is impossible to deal with.On my boats, the bulwark cap is the genoa track. No need for anything on the deck.Replacing the metal under winches with stainless is a good idea.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I need to find a book that outlines the finishing parts like best place for winches, genoa tracks, hatches etc. Rick| 36065|36056|2019-07-06 16:57:33|Rick Jackson|Re: Best book for steel boat building|Hey Brentâ€¦ I just emailed youâ€¦ But I like your view pointâ€¦ Im a no chrome, just iron kind of guy.. I am realizing that most of what I need to do is just making stuff myself.. Problem is, I have only had one season in the Virgin Islands sailing and was just a deck hand. My knowledge base is very limitedâ€¦..Rick On Jul 3, 2019, at 6:20 PM, opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote:Regarding the Hiscocks....anybody who has gone around the world 3 times should know what works.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_and_Susan_HiscockThe thing I like about the classic books is that they show low tech and common sense solutions that work. The people sailing back then weren't interested in if something was shiny or new. All they cared about was if it worked. They were often on a budget, independent and self sufficient. They knew that they were on their own and that there was no helicopter waiting for them to pick them up as soon as they triggered their EPIRB at the first time something went wrong. Also, most of their voyaging happened before the yachtie magazines became the commercial whores they are now, only interested in marketing shiny and expensive gear.| 36066|36066|2019-07-07 18:16:55|zoascott74@gmail.com|Liferafts|Maybe not appropriate here but Im looking for a liferaft and paper charts for west coast usa /mexico if anyone has any leads ? Any opinions on new liferafts these days ? Thanks Zoa| 36067|36066|2019-07-07 18:22:22|brentswain38|Re: Liferafts|There are a couple of chart atlases for Mexico, one for around $75 goes to the Guatamala border,the $135 one goes all the way to Panama. Get the latter one. I have some charts you could copy ,( many have) if you get to Heriot Bay, and can come up with transport to town.Charlies charts are also a good investment.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Maybe not appropriate here but Im looking for a liferaft and paper charts for west coast usa /mexico if anyone has any leads ? Any opinions on new liferafts these days ? Thanks Zoa| 36068|36066|2019-07-07 18:55:29|opuspaul|Re: Liferafts|It is a bit of work but you can get the NOAA charts for free and then just print them out yourself. I have done this in strip form (using A4 or letter size) and then put them in a book.It is not the best but OK in an emergency if your computer or gps goes down.https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/find-charts.htmlYou can also see if you can get you a copy of the Cmap charts from somebody who has already been cruising. Most yachties have them and unlike the NOAA charts, they covers the whole world. I have printed a lot of charts off Cmap using screen shots from my computer.| 36069|36066|2019-07-07 19:27:37|Zoa Scott|Re: Liferafts|Thanks BrentÂ We are actually planning on being on quadra for a while pretty quick.I will track u down . On Sun, Jul 7, 2019, 3:22 PM brentswain38@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â There are a couple of chart atlases for Mexico, one for around $75 goes to the Guatamala border,the $135 one goes all the way to Panama. Get the latter one. I have some charts you could copy ,( many have) if you get to Heriot Bay, and can come up with transport to town.Charlies charts are also a good investment.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Maybe not appropriate here but Im looking for a liferaft and paper charts for west coast usa /mexico if anyone has any leads ? Any opinions on new liferafts these days ? Thanks Zoa | 36070|36066|2019-07-07 19:27:57|Zoa Scott|Re: Liferafts|Thanks Paul I hadnt thought of making a book.Its just for back upÂ Good cheap idea thank you On Sun, Jul 7, 2019, 3:55 PM opusnz@... [origamiboats], wrote: Â It is a bit of work but you can get the NOAA charts for free and then just print them out yourself.Â I have done this in strip form (using A4 or letter size) and then put them in a book.It is not the best but OK in an emergency if your computer or gps goes down.https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/find-charts.htmlYou can also see if you can get you a copy of the Cmap charts from somebody who has already been cruising.Â Most yachties have them and unlike the NOAA charts, they covers the whole world.Â Â I have printed a lot of charts off Cmap using screen shots from my computer. | 36071|36066|2019-07-10 17:10:47|brentswain38|Re: Liferafts|Sometimes I cruise over to Gorge Harbour, Manson's lagoon, Marina Island, or Robertson Lake. Let me know when you get here.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Thanks Brent We are actually planning on being on quadra for a while pretty quick.I will track u down . Sometimes I cruise over to Gorge harbour , mansons Lagoon , or Robertson lakeOn Sun, Jul 7, 2019, 3:22 PM brentswain38@... [origamiboats], wrote: There are a couple of chart atlases for Mexico, one for around $75 goes to the Guatamala border,the $135 one goes all the way to Panama. Get the latter one. I have some charts you could copy ,( many have) if you get to Heriot Bay, and can come up with transport to town.Charlies charts are also a good investment.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Maybe not appropriate here but Im looking for a liferaft and paper charts for west coast usa /mexico if anyone has any leads ? Any opinions on new liferafts these days ? Thanks Zoa| 36072|36072|2019-07-14 01:22:40|akenai|iDEFIX IV|I found iDEFIX IV for sale on yacht world https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/sailboat-pilothouse-cutter-3556237/Aaron| 36073|36072|2019-07-14 19:03:29|brentswain38|Re: iDEFIX IV|An extremely well built boat. Beautifully done interior.Very practically detailed boat. I believe she had a new engine put in her at the outset , with very few miles on it since. I don't know how well looked after it has been since, but probably no problems.Bill Lornie has a single keel 36 for sale on Quadra Island BC. Well done at the outset ,but needs a bit of work . Engine and sails are fine, a bit old on the sails. Phone 250-285-3619.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I found iDEFIX IV for sale on yacht world https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/sailboat-pilothouse-cutter-3556237/Aaron| 36074|36074|2019-07-30 01:10:01|zoascott74@gmail.com|Anyone need an engine ?|Just pulled a yanmar 4jh te out of a boat in comox . Needs a piston .Block and cylinder head are usable . New injection pump.good exhaust elbow and mounts . Owner just decided to go new . Be a cheap solution if anybody is looking| 36075|36074|2019-07-30 10:04:50|Matt Malone|Re: Anyone need an engine ?| #ygrps-yiv-1091287482 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} That looks like a 75 hp engine ? Here are the specs to save googling them up: https://www.yanmar.com/media/global/com/product/marinepleasure/sailBoatPropulsion/catalog/Yanmar-4JH4-TE-LR.pdf 4JH4-TE Series 4JH4-TE Series - Yanmar USA MARINE DIESEL ENGINES 4JH4-TE Series Configuration 4-stroke, vertical, water-cooled diesel engine Maximum output at crankshaft * 55.2 kW@3200 rpm [75 mhp@3200 rpm] www.yanmar.com Too much hp (prop window limits) and too physically large for me. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of zoascott74@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:16 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? Just pulled a yanmar 4jh te out of a boat in comox . Needs a piston .Block and cylinder head are usable . New injection pump.good exhaust elbow and mounts . Owner just decided to go new . Be a cheap solution if anybody is looking | 36076|36074|2019-07-30 11:48:33|jpronk1|Re: Anyone need an engine ?|The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp. James Sent from my iPhone| 36077|36074|2019-07-30 12:09:58|Matt Malone|Re: Anyone need an engine ?| #ygrps-yiv-1555530595 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} James, I am considering repowering. Can you better explain what you are getting at beyond a simple observation when pointing out the weight is only 60 pounds more than an engine with half the horsepower ? I have heard others speak in terms of "proper" marine engines have a great deal more weight for their horsepower than say terrestrial engines and they make inconclusive connections to reliability. My mechanic in particular pointed out that a particular marine engine was nearly identical to the terrestrial engine, except that the terrestrial engine had a sheet steel oil pan, and the marine engine had a very thick cast iron oil pan that he said was intended to capture the parts of a failing engine so that they did not punch a hole through the bottom of the boat. It makes sense. The obvious power to weight advantage might seem of dominant importance to some. Or is this a Kubota vs. Yanmar thing ? Please help me see what pluses and/or minuses you see as of dominant importance. Thank you. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 11:48 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp. James Sent from my iPhone | 36078|36074|2019-07-31 00:15:16|opuspaul|Re: Anyone need an engine ?|The te version of the Yanmars are turbo charged. That engine would be good for a boat 45 feet or more.| 36079|36074|2019-07-31 00:26:19|opuspaul|Re: Anyone need an engine ?|Yanmar's are lighter weight because they are a higher revving engine for a given horsepower. Yanmar's are good engines but it is almost false advertising when they say something is a certain horsepower for a given rpm that you will never realistically operate. I was told to go via displacement and make use the torque curve when picking engines and I think it was good advice. I never heard the theory of marine engines being cast iron oil pan before. That sounds real old time. I think it has more to do cooling systems, corrosion and the fuel pump (governor) than anything else. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-2128180083 #ygrps-yiv-2128180083ygrps-yiv-1690271083 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} James, I am considering repowering. Can you better explain what you are getting at beyond a simple observation when pointing out the weight is only 60 pounds more than an engine with half the horsepower ? I have heard others speak in terms of "proper" marine engines have a great deal more weight for their horsepower than say terrestrial engines and they make inconclusive connections to reliability. My mechanic in particular pointed out that a particular marine engine was nearly identical to the terrestrial engine, except that the terrestrial engine had a sheet steel oil pan, and the marine engine had a very thick cast iron oil pan that he said was intended to capture the parts of a failing engine so that they did not punch a hole through the bottom of the boat. It makes sense. The obvious power to weight advantage might seem of dominant importance to some. Or is this a Kubota vs. Yanmar thing ? Please help me see what pluses and/or minuses you see as of dominant importance. Thank you. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 11:48 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp. James Sent from my iPhone| 36080|36074|2019-07-31 00:39:47|Rick Jackson|Re: Anyone need an engine ?|Hey MattWe are repowering using an terrestrial cummins 4BT. We learned a few things along the wayâ€¦ First off was the terrestrial came at 105hp from the factory.The marine version comes in a 150hp.The weight of each is the same except for the additional coolers, pump and exhaust manifold that are required for marine use. (Marine version has a better power to weight ratio)To get the extra hp out of the same engine, they put different pistons in it, they ran bigger injectors, pump runs more fuel, and the turbo is bigger.The 150 hp version is not available for use in motor vehicles, which is not the same as saying you can not make a 105hp version into a 150 hp.Many years ago, a friend went to CAT to get a new 3208. He found out they had a 300hp version (compared to his 175hp) and he wanted it. Apparently he already told them it was for a truck, so they would not sell him the 300hp unit since it was for Marine use only. My take away is they can squeeze more power out of an engine for marine use, but I have to assume it comes at the cost of longevity.Rick On Jul 30, 2019, at 9:09 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:James,I am considering repowering. Can you better explain what you are getting at beyond a simple observation when pointing out the weight is only 60 pounds more than an engine with half the horsepower ? I have heard others speak in terms of "proper" marine engines have a great deal more weight for their horsepower than say terrestrial engines and they make inconclusive connections to reliability. My mechanic in particular pointed out that a particular marine engine was nearly identical to the terrestrial engine, except that the terrestrial engine had a sheet steel oil pan, and the marine engine had a very thick cast iron oil pan that he said was intended to capture the parts of a failing engine so that they did not punch a hole through the bottom of the boat. It makes sense.The obvious power to weight advantage might seem of dominant importance to some. Or is this a Kubota vs. Yanmar thing ?Please help me see what pluses and/or minuses you see as of dominant importance. Thank you.Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 11:48 AMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp. JamesSent from my iPhone| 36081|36074|2019-07-31 02:48:41|Matt Malone|Re: Anyone need an engine ?| Or emissions Matt From: Rick Jackson svsalmoneyes@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 00:40 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Hey Matt We are repowering using an terrestrial cummins 4BT. We learned a few things along the wayâ€¦ First off was the terrestrial came at 105hp from the factory. The marine version comes in a 150hp. The weight of each is the same except for the additional coolers, pump and exhaust manifold that are required for marine use. (Marine version has a better power to weight ratio) To get the extra hp out of the same engine, they put different pistons in it, they ran bigger injectors, pump runs more fuel, and the turbo is bigger. The 150 hp version is not available for use in motor vehicles, which is not the same as saying you can not make a 105hp version into a 150 hp. Many years ago, a friend went to CAT to get a new 3208. He found out they had a 300hp version (compared to his 175hp) and he wanted it. Apparently he already told them it was for a truck, so they would not sell him the 300hp unit since it was for Marine use only. My take away is they can squeeze more power out of an engine for marine use, but I have to assume it comes at the cost of longevity. Rick On Jul 30, 2019, at 9:09 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: James, I am considering repowering. Can you better explain what you are getting at beyond a simple observation when pointing out the weight is only 60 pounds more than an engine with half the horsepower ? I have heard others speak in terms of "proper" marine engines have a great deal more weight for their horsepower than say terrestrial engines and they make inconclusive connections to reliability. My mechanic in particular pointed out that a particular marine engine was nearly identical to the terrestrial engine, except that the terrestrial engine had a sheet steel oil pan, and the marine engine had a very thick cast iron oil pan that he said was intended to capture the parts of a failing engine so that they did not punch a hole through the bottom of the boat. It makes sense. The obvious power to weight advantage might seem of dominant importance to some. Or is this a Kubota vs. Yanmar thing ? Please help me see what pluses and/or minuses you see as of dominant importance. Thank you. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 11:48 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp. James Sent from my iPhone | 36082|36074|2019-07-31 03:27:26|opuspaul|Re: Anyone need an engine ?|On my Isuzu 3KR1 it is the marine version that has less hp. I am going by memory but the engines were originally designed for max 3200 rpm genset, refer or skid steer and when they were marinized they were tuned down to 2800 max for added reliablility and longevity.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hey MattWe are repowering using an terrestrial cummins 4BT. We learned a few things along the wayâ€¦ First off was the terrestrial came at 105hp from the factory.The marine version comes in a 150hp.The weight of each is the same except for the additional coolers, pump and exhaust manifold that are required for marine use. (Marine version has a better power to weight ratio)To get the extra hp out of the same engine, they put different pistons in it, they ran bigger injectors, pump runs more fuel, and the turbo is bigger.The 150 hp version is not available for use in motor vehicles, which is not the same as saying you can not make a 105hp version into a 150 hp.Many years ago, a friend went to CAT to get a new 3208. He found out they had a 300hp version (compared to his 175hp) and he wanted it. Apparently he already told them it was for a truck, so they would not sell him the 300hp unit since it was for Marine use only. My take away is they can squeeze more power out of an engine for marine use, but I have to assume it comes at the cost of longevity.Rick On Jul 30, 2019, at 9:09 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:James,I am considering repowering. Can you better explain what you are getting at beyond a simple observation when pointing out the weight is only 60 pounds more than an engine with half the horsepower ? I have heard others speak in terms of "proper" marine engines have a great deal more weight for their horsepower than say terrestrial engines and they make inconclusive connections to reliability. My mechanic in particular pointed out that a particular marine engine was nearly identical to the terrestrial engine, except that the terrestrial engine had a sheet steel oil pan, and the marine engine had a very thick cast iron oil pan that he said was intended to capture the parts of a failing engine so that they did not punch a hole through the bottom of the boat. It makes sense.The obvious power to weight advantage might seem of dominant importance to some. Or is this a Kubota vs. Yanmar thing ?Please help me see what pluses and/or minuses you see as of dominant importance. Thank you.Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jpronk1@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 11:48 AMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp. JamesSent from my iPhone| 36083|36074|2019-07-31 12:00:10|Darren Bos|Re: Anyone need an engine ?| My experience is in line with Paul's.Â Most of the marine engines we looked at were rated at lower hp than the terrestrial equivalent, but there are lots of exceptions, especially if you get into an engine running a turbo.Â What it really comes down to is duty rating.Â Traditionally, marine engines are rated for a higher duty ratings, most people will never drive their car with the pedal floored for hours on end.Â Here is a good description of the duty ratings.Â Â Often you can find the same engine block, rated at a lower hp, but with a higher duty rating.Â Often it is not just the fuel injection and governer that are changed, but also piston size etc.Â I'm not a diesel mechanic, but I think the piston size matters in that most of your time is going to be spent at lower power and you don't want carbon build up from lower temps that a larger cylinder will run at under a lighter load.Â So, taking a higher hp engine and running it at lower rpm probably isn't the best way to get a higher duty rating. Brent has made the point here before, that it is even more important to look at the duty rating of the transmission that you pair to the engine.Â Most transmission sold for 30 to 40 foot sailboats are sized for "pleasure use" and often don't stand up under the demands of cruising.Â Here is an example of the "upgrade" TMC 260 gearbox we paired to our 50 hp engine.Â You can see in the above link that this gearbox has three different ratings depending on use.Â You can see the full description of the rating categories on page 25 of this document.Â Our Kubota 50hp normally comes standard with a TMC 60 gearbox that we didn't feel was up to the job for cruising. On 2019-07-30 10:51 p.m., opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â On my Isuzu 3KR1 it is the marine version that has less hp.Â Â I am going by memory but the engines were originally designed for max 3200 rpm genset, refer or skid steer and when they were marinized they were tuned down to 2800 max for added reliablilityÂ and longevity. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hey Matt We are repowering using an terrestrial cummins 4BT. We learned a few things along the wayâ€¦Â First off was the terrestrial came at 105hp from the factory. The marine version comes in a 150hp. The weight of each is the same except for the additional coolers, pump and exhaust manifold that are required for marine use. (Marine version has a better power to weight ratio) To get the extra hp out of the same engine, they put different pistons in it, they ran bigger injectors, pump runs more fuel, and the turbo is bigger. The 150 hp version is not available for use in motor vehicles, which is not the same as saying you can not make a 105hp version into a 150 hp. Many years ago, a friend went to CAT to get a new 3208. He found out they had a 300hp version (compared to his 175hp) and he wanted it. Apparently he already told them it was for a truck, so they would not sell him the 300hp unit since it was for Marine use only.Â My take away is they can squeeze more power out of an engine for marine use, but I have to assume it comes at the cost of longevity. Rick On Jul 30, 2019, at 9:09 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: James, I am considering repowering.Â Can you better explain what you are getting at beyond a simple observation when pointing out the weight is only 60 pounds more than an engine with half the horsepower ?Â Â Â Â I have heard others speak in terms of "proper" marine engines have a great deal more weight for their horsepower than say terrestrial engines and they make inconclusive connections to reliability.Â Â My mechanic in particular pointed out that a particular marine engine was nearly identical to the terrestrial engine, except that the terrestrial engine had a sheet steel oil pan, and the marine engine had a very thick cast iron oil pan that he said was intended to capture the parts of a failing engine so that they did not punch a hole through the bottom of the boat.Â Â Â It makes sense. The obvious power to weight advantage might seem of dominant importance to some.Â Â Or is this a Kubota vs. Yanmar thing ? Please help me see what pluses and/or minuses you see as of dominant importance.Â Â Thank you. MattÂ From:Â origamiboats@yahoogroups.comÂ on behalf ofÂ jpronk1@...Â [origamiboats] Sent:Â Tuesday, July 30, 2019 11:48 AM To:Â origamiboats@yahoogroups.comÂ Subject:Â Re: [origamiboats] Anyone need an engine ? Â Â The dry weight of that engine is only 60 pounds more (456 lbs) than my Kubota V1903 (396 lbs) which is rated for just under 34 hp.Â James Sent from my iPhone | 36084|36084|2019-08-03 18:02:27|svsalmoneyes@gmail.com|Gluing wood to steel|Our 30 plus year old boat had wood glued in a number of places and we found it was so good that getting the wood off was extremely difficult. Most often the wood splintered leaving wood and the glue which required scraping and chisels. It was black and we want the same stuff for reassemble. Anyone know what it could have been..? We have no way of fining out from original builder... Thanks in advanceRick| 36085|36084|2019-08-03 19:28:48|opuspaul|Re: Gluing wood to steel|I used Sikaflex 291 but 3M 5200 would work well too. It has now been over 25 years. Both of them are polyurethanes and very expensive. Sika products are notorious for a limited shelf life. They work really well but I have learned to hate them. 3M 5200 is a great product (they use it on hull/deck joints) but you almost need a bank loan if you are going to buy a lot of it. There now may be cheaper alternatives. Whatever you use, if it is on painted steel and the product is a polyurethane adhesive/sealant rated for underwater use, it should be OK. Cheers, Paul| 36086|36084|2019-08-03 23:39:56|garyhlucas|Re: Gluing wood to steel| Resorcinol glue, and yes it is absolutely waterproof and holds really well on wood. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 7:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Gluing wood to steel Our 30 plus year old boat had wood glued in a number of places and we found it was so good that getting the wood off was extremely difficult. Most often the wood splintered leaving wood and the glue which required scraping and chisels. It was black and we want the same stuff for reassemble. Anyone know what it could have been..? We have no way of fining out from original builder... Thanks in advance Rick| 36087|36084|2019-08-04 10:11:47|Darren Bos|Re: Gluing wood to steel| I did a bunch of test pieces when deciding what to use where I needed adhesive (usually I also use mechanical fasteners as well when possible).Â I ended up settling on Sika Bond Pro Select Construction Adhesive.Â It can be had for $8Cdn/tube at my local hardware store.Â In peal and shear tests, the Sika actually held better to aluminum freshly roughed with a 40grit flapper disk than did 3M5200.Â It is a polyurethane, and like all polyurethanes you need to check the expiry date on the tube before you buy it.Â I've had trouble with both 5200 and Sika when I wasn't careful checking the dates.Â Like most polyurethanes, it is moisture cured, this means that the cure time is considerably faster with untreated wood, than it is with something like metal to metal.Â However, I've sealed all of our wood with epoxy first and the sika seems to work fine here as well, although Vancouver is not known for low humidity.Â Best to do your own tests.Â I still use 4200 or 4000 UV for things that I might need to remove some day (eg. depth transducer), but I've used a bunch of tubes of the Sika elsewhere. On 2019-08-03 3:19 p.m., opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I used Sikaflex 291 but 3M 5200 would work well too.Â It has now been over 25 years.Â Â Both of them are polyurethanes and very expensive. Â Sika products are notorious for a limited shelf life. Â They work really well but I have learned to hate them. Â Â 3M 5200 is a great product (they use it on hull/deck joints) but you almost need a bank loan if you are going to buy a lot of it. Â There now may be cheaper alternatives.Â Whatever you use, if it is on painted steel and the product is a polyurethane adhesive/sealant rated for underwater use, it should be OK.Â Cheers, Paul | 36088|36084|2019-08-04 10:40:52|mountain man|Re: Gluing wood to steel| Is construction adhesive suited for marine use? The reason I am asking is : I often use Manus bond 25 polyurethane which is used a lot in the transport industry to fastenec 53 ft trailers tops and similar applications... And since it creates a bond almost impossible to detach , I wanted to used it in marine application, I asked the company and they said it was not made for marine application! What do you think? Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 4 aoÃ»t 2019 10:11:43 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Re: Gluing wood to steel I did a bunch of test pieces when deciding what to use where I needed adhesive (usually I also use mechanical fasteners as well when possible). I ended up settling on Sika Bond Pro Select Construction Adhesive. It can be had for $8Cdn/tube at my local hardware store. In peal and shear tests, the Sika actually held better to aluminum freshly roughed with a 40grit flapper disk than did 3M5200. It is a polyurethane, and like all polyurethanes you need to check the expiry date on the tube before you buy it. I've had trouble with both 5200 and Sika when I wasn't careful checking the dates. Like most polyurethanes, it is moisture cured, this means that the cure time is considerably faster with untreated wood, than it is with something like metal to metal. However, I've sealed all of our wood with epoxy first and the sika seems to work fine here as well, although Vancouver is not known for low humidity. Best to do your own tests. I still use 4200 or 4000 UV for things that I might need to remove some day (eg. depth transducer), but I've used a bunch of tubes of the Sika elsewhere. On 2019-08-03 3:19 p.m., opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: I used Sikaflex 291 but 3M 5200 would work well too. It has now been over 25 years. Both of them are polyurethanes and very expensive. Sika products are notorious for a limited shelf life. They work really well but I have learned to hate them. 3M 5200 is a great product (they use it on hull/deck joints) but you almost need a bank loan if you are going to buy a lot of it. There now may be cheaper alternatives. Whatever you use, if it is on painted steel and the product is a polyurethane adhesive/sealant rated for underwater use, it should be OK. Cheers, Paul | 36089|36084|2019-08-04 11:19:28|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Gluing wood to steel|When I bought the Dove she had 5' of flowing weed on her. Bildges & tanks a horrific mess, the worst spot on the hull was on the transom, midships @ water level... looks like hell but still solid, clearly from oxidation in the back eddy. Rudder a mess.On deck the only leaks were from bedding compounds having given it up on ports etc.With one exception that is.The only exterior timber on the vessel is the trim round (that bloody stupid design of a) sliding companionway hatch & pretty little gates. The steel below the pretty timber framing, right at c'pit seat level, is sieve like. The only bit on the boat that the only solution is to hack it out & replace it.Brent's right. If you mount timber of any kind to any steel, stainless or otherwise, that is exposed to the weather, you are knowingly building a future problem.It may look awful if you let it go, but to me, one of the major benefits of steel is that if there is a problem you can see it, rust, even at a distance & see that there is an issue. But under that pretty timber... future suprize guaranteed.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36090|36084|2019-08-04 17:21:08|Darren Bos|Re: Gluing wood to steel| I don't think there is one simple answer to this.Â There are so many different chemistries and substrates that it is impossible to say.Â It also depends on how good of a bond you need.Â My rules are that below the waterline for a through-hull, like a depth transducer, I only used something that is approved for that use. Â Above, the waterline, inside the boat, I don't use just adhesive to attach anything that is structural, although I often use adhesive and a mechanical fastener.Â Things like the portlight and hatch trim bezels often get just adhesive. I'm suspicious of marine labeling, all too often marine just means premium pricing.Â However, there could also be things like "class certified" boats where you have to use marine certified adhesives to qualify.Â No large company would recommend using a product off label, there is no advantage to them and potential liability, and they probably had a fair bit of extra cost to get their marine products certified.Â There is also no one adhesive that glues everything well, so if your not using a product designed for a particular use then you better check for yourself that it is doing what you want.Â If you need a bond that is exposed to the elements, carries structural loads, and involves difficult to bond things, then its probably best to talk to the experts and follow the steps and products they recommend to the letter.Â I'm happy with the Sika Pro Construction Adhesive for non critical bits.Â In my tests (aluminum and bare wood) it did better than 3M 5200 and most here will know what a nightmare it is to get anything off that has been attached with 5200.Â In a steel boat, I'd suspect that often it is going to be the bond between the primer/paint/epoxy and the steel that is going to fail before the adhesive. On 2019-08-04 7:40 a.m., mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Is construction adhesive suited for marine use? The reason I am asking is : I often use Manus bond 25 polyurethane which is used a lot in the transport industry to fastenec 53 ft trailers tops and similar applications... And since it creates a bond almost impossible to detach , I wanted to used it in marine application, I asked the company and they said it was not made for marine application! What do you think? Martin De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 4 aoÃ»t 2019 10:11:43 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [origamiboats] Re: Gluing wood to steel Â Â I did a bunch of test pieces when deciding what to use where I needed adhesive (usually I also use mechanical fasteners as well when possible).Â I ended up settling on Sika Bond Pro Select Construction Adhesive.Â It can be had for $8Cdn/tube at my local hardware store.Â In peal and shear tests, the Sika actually held better to aluminum freshly roughed with a 40grit flapper disk than did 3M5200.Â It is a polyurethane, and like all polyurethanes you need to check the expiry date on the tube before you buy it.Â I've had trouble with both 5200 and Sika when I wasn't careful checking the dates.Â Like most polyurethanes, it is moisture cured, this means that the cure time is considerably faster with untreated wood, than it is with something like metal to metal.Â However, I've sealed all of our wood with epoxy first and the sika seems to work fine here as well, although Vancouver is not known for low humidity.Â Best to do your own tests.Â I still use 4200 or 4000 UV for things that I might need to remove some day (eg. depth transducer), but I've used a bunch of tubes of the Sika elsewhere. On 2019-08-03 3:19 p.m., opusnz@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â I used Sikaflex 291 but 3M 5200 would work well too.Â It has now been over 25 years.Â Â Both of them are polyurethanes and very expensive. Â Sika products are notorious for a limited shelf life. Â They work really well but I have learned to hate them. Â Â 3M 5200 is a great product (they use it on hull/deck joints) but you almost need a bank loan if you are going to buy a lot of it. Â There now may be cheaper alternatives.Â Whatever you use, if it is on painted steel and the product is a polyurethane adhesive/sealant rated for underwater use, it should be OK.Â Cheers, Paul | 36091|36084|2019-08-04 19:11:38|opuspaul|Re: Gluing wood to steel|My teak hatches haven't been any problem against the steel on my boat at all after over 25 years. After cleaning, they look like new. Having said that, I used stainless trim and made sure everything was painted well before bolting the teak on with sikaflex. FWIW, you have to be careful about UV or chemicals with a lot of sealants. I made sure the paint trim line was high enough to cover the caulk. I had a lot of problems using Sika on my portholes. Changing to cheap butyl rubber caulk was a much better result. Butyl is great stuff in any area that doesn't require adhesive strength.| 36092|36084|2019-08-04 19:17:07|opuspaul|Re: Gluing wood to steel|Resorcinol glue is preferred on tight glue joints on wood but it doesn't like gaps. I am not sure I would use it on disimilar materials that expand and contract at different rates. It is normally a purple color.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Resorcinol glue, and yes it is absolutely waterproof and holds really well on wood. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 7:58 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] Gluing wood to steel Our 30 plus year old boat had wood glued in a number of places and we found it was so good that getting the wood off was extremely difficult. Most often the wood splintered leaving wood and the glue which required scraping and chisels. It was black and we want the same stuff for reassemble. Anyone know what it could have been..? We have no way of fining out from original builder... Thanks in advance Rick| 36093|36084|2019-08-05 20:09:25|don bourgeois|Re: Gluing wood to steel| I seldom pipe up on this site but I use the Sika for my freshwater glue work and have not had any problems. It does come in a marine grade. I get it at the local Rona, Home Depot used to carry it but I don't see the marine grade there now. They both stock it in the concrete supply section of their stores so don't bother to look in the regular caulk or glue section. It's about $8/tube. Seriously a good product. I've been using it as sealant in my 67' Scout project. Cheers, Don B From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2019 5:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Gluing wood to steel Resorcinol glue is preferred on tight glue joints on wood but it doesn't like gaps. I am not sure I would use it on disimilar materials that expand and contract at different rates. It is normally a purple color. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote : Resorcinol glue, and yes it is absolutely waterproof and holds really well on wood. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 7:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Gluing wood to steel Our 30 plus year old boat had wood glued in a number of places and we found it was so good that getting the wood off was extremely difficult. Most often the wood splintered leaving wood and the glue which required scraping and chisels. It was black and we want the same stuff for reassemble. Anyone know what it could have been..? We have no way of fining out from original builder... Thanks in advance Rick | 36094|36084|2019-08-05 21:13:06|brentswain38|Re: Gluing wood to steel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Resourcinol is also very temperature finickyNo bedding compound can match a stainless weld, which should always be your first choice on any metal boat .Just because someone got away with using a given bedding compound, for many years , doesn't always mean that its a good idea.Resorcinol glue is preferred on tight glue joints on wood but it doesn't like gaps. I am not sure I would use it on disimilar materials that expand and contract at different rates. It is normally a purple color.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Resorcinol glue, and yes it is absolutely waterproof and holds really well on wood. From: mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 7:58 PMTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] Gluing wood to steel Our 30 plus year old boat had wood glued in a number of places and we found it was so good that getting the wood off was extremely difficult. Most often the wood splintered leaving wood and the glue which required scraping and chisels. It was black and we want the same stuff for reassemble. Anyone know what it could have been..? We have no way of fining out from original builder... Thanks in advance Rick| 36095|36084|2019-08-07 17:35:37|svsalmoneyes@gmail.com|Re: Gluing wood to steel|Sounds like Sikaflex would have been what was used as the boat was built in Sweden. We had wood on the outside but removed all that and will be replacing with stainless.We need to glue wood to the painted hull inside in a few places for interior finish. The boat originally had wood glued in places in the engine room for things to screw to. The fuel tanks were a great place to mount things and the glued on wood was almost impossible to remove...| 36096|36084|2019-08-08 11:15:57|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Gluing wood to steel|Good idea.Just be sure not to mount it on a surface that will sweat when you heat the boat.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36097|36097|2019-08-08 13:02:13|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Water in the Keel|StiÄºl dealing with the water tanks as am only good for couples hours every couples days.But on getting started on keel top tank, found bit of water next day. Chased it down to a small leak coming from a weld side of keel to top plate.Drilled 3/8" hole in top plate & vacuumed out 6-8 liters of water.Drilled 1/2" hole in stb'd side of the bottom of the keel. About 10" aft of the leading edge about 1.5" from the bottom of the Keel. (the bottom plate is 1" isn't it?)From this hole in the bottom of the Keel I caught 35 litres of water that was exactly the color of piss. So best estimate would be 50-55 litres came out.Thought I'd flush till running clear, add a bit of antifreeze as there is no way I can get 100% of the water, then fill it up with cheap vegetable oil. Plug on bottom of keel with a top plug inside the fresh water tank. Then, as I am building 1/2" inspection hatches in top of tank of tank lids, if there is a problem and there is leakage of oil, vegetable oil, it will be easy to see.Also, from a safety perspective, if for some reason there is leakage of oil from keel top into keel top water tank, then worst case you taste a bit of rancid vegetable oil, not, say, a bit of 10:30 which might kill you.However..... theory is one thing, but the reality is that after being left overnight with 3" of water in the tank, it is clear that there is no connection between the two cavities in the Keel that so much bloody water came out of.In all honesty I believe that after a bit of corrosion happened inside the keel, the oxygen would be used up & corrosion would stop. Till next time. But as no metal flaking came out botm of the Keel and Also, as the color of the water was that of piss & not darker.So I figure the damage, the corrosion, would be minimal. Probably cosmetic at worst. And that inside the keel...so what!Just seal up both holes & move on? I mean the boat has been abused for years & in another 20 years I ain't gonna care.I believe, but have no way of confirming, that the water in the Keel originally came from the fresh water in the Keel top tank.This because A) exterior of keel dry as bone & no leeks.B) And also because I tasted a bit, if there is salt it is minimal. There is something in the taste but this water has been sitting in lead for years so just fast taste off fingers, real fast & spit lotsC) the water appeared in the tank only after I had removed epoxy paint from a weld. Maybe 150cc overnight after partial removal of the paint. That same 150cc after only 20 minutes after I had removed all the paint. Could clearly see a wee leak. Welding. but with heaps of epoxy on there any leak woulda been miniscule and with gravity and filling a cavity that is burning up oxygen (creating a wee vacÃ¹um??) with bit of corrosion.Add time. 60 litres over 30 years ain't much & gravity & oxygen as mentioned above....Pouring the Keel not an exact science & although no clear connection between the cavities, even with the tiniest hole of passageway, over 30 years....Seems to explain things.My gut reaction is:- let things dry best you can- repair original weld- put plug in bottom of Keel top water tank down into keel (with another out the bottom of the side so tanks can be drained from the outside)- put another plug on the side of the Keel at the bottom so can pull to inspect next haullout. Am I missing anything here?Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36098|36097|2019-08-13 14:22:42|brentswain38|Re: Water in the Keel|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sounds like good plan. Most use half inch plate for the keel bottom ,but some find heavier stuff.StiÄºl dealing with the water tanks as am only good for couples hours every couples days.But on getting started on keel top tank, found bit of water next day. Chased it down to a small leak coming from a weld side of keel to top plate.Drilled 3/8" hole in top plate & vacuumed out 6-8 liters of water.Drilled 1/2" hole in stb'd side of the bottom of the keel. About 10" aft of the leading edge about 1.5" from the bottom of the Keel. (the bottom plate is 1" isn't it?)From this hole in the bottom of the Keel I caught 35 litres of water that was exactly the color of piss. So best estimate would be 50-55 litres came out.Thought I'd flush till running clear, add a bit of antifreeze as there is no way I can get 100% of the water, then fill it up with cheap vegetable oil. Plug on bottom of keel with a top plug inside the fresh water tank. Then, as I am building 1/2" inspection hatches in top of tank of tank lids, if there is a problem and there is leakage of oil, vegetable oil, it will be easy to see.Also, from a safety perspective, if for some reason there is leakage of oil from keel top into keel top water tank, then worst case you taste a bit of rancid vegetable oil, not, say, a bit of 10:30 which might kill you.However..... theory is one thing, but the reality is that after being left overnight with 3" of water in the tank, it is clear that there is no connection between the two cavities in the Keel that so much bloody water came out of.In all honesty I believe that after a bit of corrosion happened inside the keel, the oxygen would be used up & corrosion would stop. Till next time. But as no metal flaking came out botm of the Keel and Also, as the color of the water was that of piss & not darker.So I figure the damage, the corrosion, would be minimal. Probably cosmetic at worst. And that inside the keel...so what!Just seal up both holes & move on? I mean the boat has been abused for years & in another 20 years I ain't gonna care.I believe, but have no way of confirming, that the water in the Keel originally came from the fresh water in the Keel top tank.This because A) exterior of keel dry as bone & no leeks.B) And also because I tasted a bit, if there is salt it is minimal. There is something in the taste but this water has been sitting in lead for years so just fast taste off fingers, real fast & spit lotsC) the water appeared in the tank only after I had removed epoxy paint from a weld. Maybe 150cc overnight after partial removal of the paint. That same 150cc after only 20 minutes after I had removed all the paint. Could clearly see a wee leak. Welding. but with heaps of epoxy on there any leak woulda been miniscule and with gravity and filling a cavity that is burning up oxygen (creating a wee vacÃ¹um??) with bit of corrosion.Add time. 60 litres over 30 years ain't much & gravity & oxygen as mentioned above....Pouring the Keel not an exact science & although no clear connection between the cavities, even with the tiniest hole of passageway, over 30 years....Seems to explain things.My gut reaction is:- let things dry best you can- repair original weld- put plug in bottom of Keel top water tank down into keel (with another out the bottom of the side so tanks can be drained from the outside)- put another plug on the side of the Keel at the bottom so can pull to inspect next haullout. Am I missing anything here?Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36099|8182|2019-08-14 16:32:48|aguysailing|Stuffing Box|I have had the same stuffing box since launch about 12 years and never really had a close look except for changing packing. I uploaded 2 pics "square bolt stuffing box" and "screw beside grease nipple". I understand the grease nipple part being to add grease to control water drip through the flax stuffing. The screw beside it I have no idea what that is far except guessing it is to release air to allow room for grease?? The square bolt at the left side of the pic does not appear to be part of the rubber "log" so I assuming it is part of the propeller alignment (i.e., set screw)?. Thanks for comments| 36100|8182|2019-08-15 12:32:31|Matt Malone|Re: Stuffing Box| #ygrps-yiv-1332707290 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I have thought about this. It seems unlikely it is an access hole for a set screw. I see no benefit in anything but a solid shaft going through a stuffing box -- it would just make the seals more difficult if there were any sort of coupling in the shaft inside the stuffing box. Also, if the coupling failed, there are many possible negative outcomes. Your guesses seem reasonable, that both the screw beside the grease nipple and the square headed plug are holes to allow air or sea water or aged emulsified grease to escape when adding more. It is possible the square plug accesses a rear grease seal, or somehow retains it. If it were not for that possibility, I would suggest removing it -- if it unthreads easily and is likely to be able to put back in easily -- to see what is there. I would have a piece of mechanics wire handy to probe in the hole if you find there is grease under the plug. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box I have had the same stuffing box since launch about 12 years and never really had a close look except for changing packing. I uploaded 2 pics "square bolt stuffing box" and "screw beside grease nipple". I understand the grease nipple part being to add grease to control water drip through the flax stuffing. The screw beside it I have no idea what that is far except guessing it is to release air to allow room for grease?? The square bolt at the left side of the pic does not appear to be part of the rubber "log" so I assuming it is part of the propeller alignment (i.e., set screw)?. Thanks for comments | 36101|8182|2019-08-15 14:39:26|aguysailing|Re: Stuffing Box|Previously I pumped in lots of marine grease in that nipple . It did not work out for me unlike others who do this. Grease just kept coming out og the stuffing box and ended helluva mess in the bilge. 6 yrs later grease still gets in the stuffing box . I want to rinse out the entire prop shaft tube. I was thinking of warming up some simple green and using a garden sprayer to do it. I hope this stuff will not rust anything in this just wash out the grease so I can start again without getting grease all over the packing.| 36102|8182|2019-08-16 14:26:13|Matt Malone|Re: Stuffing Box| #ygrps-yiv-78890483 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I have not used simple green specifically. To clean out this area and protect it from rust here is a possible squence: - warm water and detergent to wash out not only the grease but salt residues also. A parts-wash solvent might not get the residues. - copious amounts of water to wash away the last traces of detergent -- de-ionized water is idea for parts cleaning, but a gardenhose will probably have to suffice. I would let it run at least 10 minutes longer than you think you need to. \ - you will then need a way to drain out certainly more than 90% of the volume, 99% of the volume would be better. - drain - either repeated small dilutions with alcohol, with draining between, or WD-40. - drain - light oil to make the first coating on all interior parts or dilute and replace the WD-40 that is covering everything It is now days-rust proof. Use heavier oils or greases to make it long-term rust-proof. You would want to replace the stuffing material. Detergent, alcohol or WD-40 may remove the residues or treatments that made it water repellent and effective. It is the same reason one does not wash an old canvas tent with soap and water or chemicals -- one might wash off the water repellent treatment. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of aguysailing@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box Previously I pumped in lots of marine grease in that nipple . It did not work out for me unlike others who do this. Grease just kept coming out og the stuffing box and ended helluva mess in the bilge. 6 yrs later grease still gets in the stuffing box . I want to rinse out the entire prop shaft tube. I was thinking of warming up some simple green and using a garden sprayer to do it. I hope this stuff will not rust anything in this just wash out the grease so I can start again without getting grease all over the packing. | 36103|8182|2019-08-21 16:52:41|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box|How's it working, now that you have changed the packing and realigned her?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Previously I pumped in lots of marine grease in that nipple . It did not work out for me unlike others who do this. Grease just kept coming out og the stuffing box and ended helluva mess in the bilge. 6 yrs later grease still gets in the stuffing box . I want to rinse out the entire prop shaft tube. I was thinking of warming up some simple green and using a garden sprayer to do it. I hope this stuff will not rust anything in this just wash out the grease so I can start again without getting grease all over the packing.| 36104|8182|2019-08-22 16:35:57|aguysailing|Re: Stuffing Box|Brent... ok so far. However in time the grease will flow into the packing which usually starts off the excessive leaking. You would think the grease would be a barrier to leakage.| 36105|8182|2019-08-23 14:28:37|prairiemaidca|Re: Stuffing Box|Can someone help out here on this thread? I was always under the assumption that people that were using a stuffing box did not use grease in their stern tube and those that do use grease use a seal of some sort to contain the grease in the tube. Martin.. (Prairie Maid). | 36106|8182|2019-08-23 15:35:42|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box|I have had a permanently hooked up grease gun on my stern tube for decades, as has Moon raven. No problem . I use a standard stuffing box.I have been told that is more common in Europe. It only works with fairly solid or hard engine mounts. With the ( dangerously ) floppy Yanmar mounts the stuffing box overheats and throws grease around. No such problem with mine. No cruiser should be using Yanmar floppy mounts anyway. Too dangerous.1/8th inch standard pipe thread is common on grease gun hoses. Taping that into your stuffing box,or stern tube , lets you leave the grease gun permanently hooked up ,and eliminates the zirc.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can someone help out here on this thread? I was always under the assumption that people that were using a stuffing box did not use grease in their stern tube and those that do use grease use a seal of some sort to contain the grease in the tube. Martin.. (Prairie Maid). | 36107|8182|2019-08-23 21:02:16|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|To be honest, I know people do it with success and it helps eliminate corrosion but I never understood the idea about using grease in a stern tube. I don't think you can really talk about grease in a stern tube without first talking about the cutlass bearing at the prop end of the shaft. Normal cutlass bearings are designed and supposed to be water lubricated for cooling. Theoretically, the shaft rides on a thin layer of water between it and the rubber. On boats with larger dia shafts or higher shaft speeds, they actually inject water to assure proper water flow. I guess if you have a lip seal or some other kind of seal, you have no water lubricating the shaft so you need something else like grease or oil. I think this was the old school way of doing things. I assume they used a packing or solid bearing on the bottom and never used rubber fluted cutlass bearings. https://citimarinestore.com/citiguide/johnson-cutless-bearings-your-complete-guide/Bottomline is that I don't think I would ever use grease with a shaft using a typical rubber fluted cutlass bearing.On the stuffing box end, normal flax packings are actually designed for water as well. You are supposed to tighten them just enough that a small drip of water comes out when the shaft is turning. I have been told to adjust for one drip every 30 seconds or so. The water helps reduce friction and the helps keeps it cool. If you go too tight, there is no water, more friction, the stuffing box heats up and the shaft will end up scored and then you will ever get a proper seal. Unfortunately, this is common. I guess if you used grease, it will seal OK but I would be worried about overheating. But many people do it so maybe it is a case of it being OK with low speed versus higher speed shaft? I say this because grease has it's limits and you can have too much of a good thing. I once put too much grease in the gearbox of an angle grinder and it got so hot I couldn't touch it. I am guessing but maybe a stuffing box mounted flexibly on the end of hose will have more problems with overheating while a stuffing box mounted directly to shaft tube gets more heat transfer and cooling? Either way, I would think a shaft tube filled with a little bit of water will be cooler than one full of grease. Probably less friction too. Complicating it further, I have seen some larger boats with long shafts that have two cutlass bearings in the stern tube....one on each end of the tube, with a separate shaft seal on a flexible mount at the upper end. Alignment gets very tricky and I think flexible mounts would be a disaster so I think they normally use CV joints and thrust bearings in that situation. I can't see how grease would work very well there. Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Can someone help out here on this thread? I was always under the assumption that people that were using a stuffing box did not use grease in their stern tube and those that do use grease use a seal of some sort to contain the grease in the tube. Martin.. (Prairie Maid). | 36108|8182|2019-08-23 21:11:35|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|Is the shaft scored, damaged or pitted? It should be smooth or no packing will seal it properly, even using grease. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent... ok so far. However in time the grease will flow into the packing which usually starts off the excessive leaking. You would think the grease would be a barrier to leakage.| 36109|8182|2019-08-24 00:53:05|Matt Malone|Re: Stuffing Box| #ygrps-yiv-17093132 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Paul, I found that historical description at the link very informative and I sure see how it works, it is just not the only or best solution it seems to me. My experience in shafts going from where there is liquid (either a standing head or just sprays and splashes) to where there is not liquid is, a proper rubber shaft seal, or two, one at each end, and a petroleum lubricant pressurized so that the pressure difference across the seal is zero or positive. The freshwater seal for the water pump on my boat engine is just such a seal -- with a grease cap that can be tightened a turn or two every now and then to keep it sealed. In the petroleum lubricant side of the seal there is a proper bearing that when properly lubricated produces negligible heat. Most engine applications I see, it is just phosphor bronze or something, but I have seen proper roller bearings too. Just look at the water pump seal on a car engine -- that runs at 15+psi and 200+F. They do not leak at all, until they fail, then they leak only very slowly in the context of filling a boat with wate. I would like to see someone try to sell a cutlass style bearing as shown in that link to any industrial plant with stirred tankage. Water is a lousy lubricant in comparison to a real lubricant. Some solutions are even worse lubricants. Just because some boats may have done cutlass bearings for a long time does not mean that it is the best solution, particularly when the pressure is only a few feet of water. At 1 PSI for about every 2ft of draft down to the prop sfhaft, I do not think anyone's cruising sailboat is running their shaft seal over about 4 PSI. It is easy to counter-pressure that so the lubricant in the middle is at a higher pressure than the water outside and the cabin air inside. https://www.ahpseals.com/rotary-shaft-seals/ Note "marine" is one of their applications for their rotary shaft seals. The higher pressure squeezes the L or herring-bone shaped sealing surfaces down on the shaft, forming the seal from the inside out. Make the seal hold the lubricant in, and that automatically keeps the water outside the very first seal, before the properly lubricated bearing. Pft... seawater. Ha. Ask these guys how much leakage is acceptable from the shaft seal of an acid tank in a process line. Or a reactor containing pressurized toxic solutions, with workers working around the reactor. Pft ... seawater. These seals are good for vacuum systems ! 15psi, and if there is the tiniest leak, it contaminates the vacuum. Just run it +15PSI relative to the water, no lubricant will leak into the water, not water will leak into the lubricant, let alone the boat. But there are plenty of low tech and half-assed ways (i.e. traditional boat ways) to keep a few PSI of water from leaking too much. My understanding of the original stuffing box seals was just grease impregnated fine fibre that when squished tightly forms a composite material. It has the bulk stiffness of a solid, i.e. it does not flow indefinitely under a small force like a liquid, because of the fibres and the viscosity of trying to force the grease to flow between the fibres. The composite material also has the hydrophobic properties of the grease. It forms its shape around the shaft. The two together hold the water out very effectively, if not indefinitely with a proper enclosure that exerts the pressure on the stuffing. But the fibre is not even needed. I saw one submarine where the seal was just a long flexible tube into which the shaft just barely fit. Then there was another tube "T"ed off the side and grease was forced in, forcing grease to exist in the very small clearance between the tube and shaft. The viscosity of the grease, the narrow clearance, and the length of the tube make the leak rate of grease from the water side to the inside, under the water pressure difference was so slow that it was essentially a seal. Also, when the shaft is off-center in the tube, the tube automatically forms a journal bearing forcing the shaft to center in the tube -- bearing and seal in one simple geometry. It just had to be repressured with grease from time to time. Granted, this design very slowly leaked grease into the water and would not pass an environmental inspection. Just a guess, some packings may get water logged, that is the water emulsifies with the grease into a margarine or mayonnaise like consistency, and then water leaks because there is a water-compatible channel through the packing. So, the idea that a petroleum lubricant has no place in any type of shaft seal is just incorrect. I think many industrial suppliers would argue that it is not a proper bearing and seal unless it has a petroleum lubricant. Brent is all for getting industrial-quality, work-boat quality gear on cruising boats. If industrial rigging hardware is good for a boat, why not a possibly superior modern industrial seal and bearing system, something not sold in a yachty store, something certified for more corrosive environments, and higher pressures and zero leaks? Martin, I would find a local marine surveyor / installer / hands-on expert and and have him look at what you have and give you an idea what direction to go. I would not be concerned if he recommends cutlass bearings and everything Paul is saying, I am just saying, it is not the only option or the best option. It might however be the easiest and cheapest option from where you are now. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box To be honest, I know people do it with success and it helps eliminate corrosion but I never understood the idea about using grease in a stern tube. I don't think you can really talk about grease in a stern tube without first talking about the cutlass bearing at the prop end of the shaft. Normal cutlass bearings are designed and supposed to be water lubricated for cooling. Theoretically, the shaft rides on a thin layer of water between it and the rubber. On boats with larger dia shafts or higher shaft speeds, they actually inject water to assure proper water flow. I guess if you have a lip seal or some other kind of seal, you have no water lubricating the shaft so you need something else like grease or oil. I think this was the old school way of doing things. I assume they used a packing or solid bearing on the bottom and never used rubber fluted cutlass bearings. https://citimarinestore.com/citiguide/johnson-cutless-bearings-your-complete-guide/ Bottomline is that I don't think I would ever use grease with a shaft using a typical rubber fluted cutlass bearing. On the stuffing box end, normal flax packings are actually designed for water as well. You are supposed to tighten them just enough that a small drip of water comes out when the shaft is turning. I have been told to adjust for one drip every 30 seconds or so. The water helps reduce friction and the helps keeps it cool. If you go too tight, there is no water, more friction, the stuffing box heats up and the shaft will end up scored and then you will ever get a proper seal. Unfortunately, this is common. I guess if you used grease, it will seal OK but I would be worried about overheating. But many people do it so maybe it is a case of it being OK with low speed versus higher speed shaft? I say this because grease has it's limits and you can have too much of a good thing. I once put too much grease in the gearbox of an angle grinder and it got so hot I couldn't touch it. I am guessing but maybe a stuffing box mounted flexibly on the end of hose will have more problems with overheating while a stuffing box mounted directly to shaft tube gets more heat transfer and cooling? Either way, I would think a shaft tube filled with a little bit of water will be cooler than one full of grease. Probably less friction too. Complicating it further, I have seen some larger boats with long shafts that have two cutlass bearings in the stern tube....one on each end of the tube, with a separate shaft seal on a flexible mount at the upper end. Alignment gets very tricky and I think flexible mounts would be a disaster so I think they normally use CV joints and thrust bearings in that situation. I can't see how grease would work very well there. Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Can someone help out here on this thread? I was always under the assumption that people that were using a stuffing box did not use grease in their stern tube and those that do use grease use a seal of some sort to contain the grease in the tube. Martin.. (Prairie Maid). | 36110|8182|2019-08-24 21:59:40|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|The industrial stuff isn't necessarily cheaper. I like buying commercial versus "yachtie" but some of the stuff priced for industrial is going to customers like oil and gas companies who have big budgets and don't question the price.Whatever you use, it must be tolerant of corrosion. You often get scale on the shaft, particularly on the sea water side. As soon as you get forward or reverse thrust, the whole shaft and engine shifts a bit against the engine mounts. It may only shift a mm but a single thin lip seal can get ripped apart pretty quick on the scale. This is much worse if you don't use your engine often. Maybe that is why long cutlass bearings and multiple packings are used on boats. You can quickly compare prices with these guys....https://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/marine-shafts-sealI used a standard flax packing for many years but switched to a Volvo-Penta seal after I chose to replace my shaft. They use them a lot on charter boats in the Caribbean and are a lot cheaper than other dripless seals. In NZ, I could buy two for the price of one PSS shaft seal. I have been using the Volvo seal for about 6 years now without a hitch and now I have a dry bilge.https://www.generalpropeller.com/Volvo-Shaft-SealA thin layer of water is much lower friction than grease when used in a shaft bearing. Imagine trying to walk or swim in a pool full of grease. There are some higher tech materials now used in cutlass bearings. Thordon is popular in NZ.https://henleyspropellers.com/products/bearings/https://thordonbearings.com/marine/naval-coast-guard/surface-fleet/propeller-shaft-bearing-systemsI think almost all new commercial boats and yachts are using water lubricated bearings. I wouldn't want to be in a modern marina and have oil leaking out through my stern tube. ;). The eco warriors and fun police are vigilant and often act deranged. It takes nothing for them to start whining to authorities and then things get nasty.Paul| 36111|8182|2019-08-24 23:43:09|Matt Malone|Re: Stuffing Box| Thank you Paul. I have to look at my stern seal and having all the information is definitely the way to go. Yes, industrial rotary seals are not cheap and might exceed yachtie prices. Good point on axial movement from forward to reverse. My current motor is bedded in rails solid to the hull but it has no dedicated thrust bearing. The transmission as to react axial.loads and it will inevitably have some axial backlash. My boat is glass, and I am not eager to do large changes to the stern shaft area. I already know It would be prudent to do major work on the rudder. I am considering replacing the entire thing -- I suspect it is a brazed? bronze frame embedded in filler and glass. I would replace it with a Brent style steel welded unit, possibly stainless or marine aluminium. I will need a water tight rotary seal there too. I will see how that goes. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, August 24, 21:59 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com The industrial stuff isn't necessarily cheaper. I like buying commercial versus "yachtie" but some of the stuff priced for industrial is going to customers like oil and gas companies who have big budgets and don't question the price. Whatever you use, it must be tolerant of corrosion. You often get scale on the shaft, particularly on the sea water side. As soon as you get forward or reverse thrust, the whole shaft and engine shifts a bit against the engine mounts. It may only shift a mm but a single thin lip seal can get ripped apart pretty quick on the scale. This is much worse if you don't use your engine often. Maybe that is why long cutlass bearings and multiple packings are used on boats. You can quickly compare prices with these guys.... https://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/marine-shafts-seal I used a standard flax packing for many years but switched to a Volvo-Penta seal after I chose to replace my shaft. They use them a lot on charter boats in the Caribbean and are a lot cheaper than other dripless seals. In NZ, I could buy two for the price of one PSS shaft seal. I have been using the Volvo seal for about 6 years now without a hitch and now I have a dry bilge. https://www.generalpropeller.com/Volvo-Shaft-Seal A thin layer of water is much lower friction than grease when used in a shaft bearing. Imagine trying to walk or swim in a pool full of grease. There are some higher tech materials now used in cutlass bearings. Thordon is popular in NZ. https://henleyspropellers.com/products/bearings/ https://thordonbearings.com/marine/naval-coast-guard/surface-fleet/propeller-shaft-bearing-systems I think almost all new commercial boats and yachts are using water lubricated bearings. I wouldn't want to be in a modern marina and have oil leaking out through my stern tube. ;). The eco warriors and fun police are vigilant and often act deranged. It takes nothing for them to start whining to authorities and then things get nasty. Paul | 36112|8182|2019-08-25 11:28:07|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Stuffing Box|To maintain positive pressure on the propshaft to stop/prevent ingress of water, aside from not using super soft engine mounts,All you have to do is operate the system per design.I pretty much assume you would be tapping the 1/8" (npt?) threads into the stuffing box on the hard (How to do otherwize) so when you install it, pump it full of grease when everything is at ambient pressure.Of course you will have mounted the grease gun in a location where the helmsman can easily operate it & not a pita to get at where it will be forgotten.Just before she go's back in the water before you fire it up, give it a shot or 2 of grease and give it a shot or 2 of grease AT LEAST every hour. More is betterSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36113|8182|2019-08-25 13:08:53|Darren Bos|Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box| Matt, For my rudder I turned bearing and seal holders out of UHMWPE.Â I did this on a 7x14 mini lathe, a tool that has paid for itself many times over.Â The ones I made are similar to Tides Marine Type K.Â The seals (Parker LPDW) are relatively inexpensive from industrial sources.Â The place I found in Vancouver had a minimum order of five, but that was still much less than the cost for two from a marine supplier.Â I placed bearings and seals above and below the rudder port and filled the sealed space with grease through a zerk fitting.Â Part of the motivation for turning my own bearings was that the lower (bottom of full keel) and upper (at hull) rudder supports on my boat had a slight misalignment.Â The original builder had used rubber cutlass bearings, which are too stiff to deal with the misalignment and led to binding.Â I turned the outer bearing surface first, then tilted the bearing in the four-jaw chuck before boring the interior, the result was a perfectly aligned rudder that has no play, but that you can push side to side with a single finger.Â It's also doubly watertight with seals above and below and doesn't leak grease into the water.Â I melted and recycled UHMWPE for the prototype bearings, but had some trouble with voids developing as the plastic cooled, however you could possibly make bearings out of readily available HDPE (eg. milk bottles) this way.Â Â In the end I bought a hunk of UHMWPE to get things done quickly and to the best standard I could. UHMWPE and a lathe are really handy, I also made grooved cutlass bearings this way.Â I was considering replacing the corroded aluminum collar that compressed the packing for my propeller shaft this way as well, but after reading Paul's report on the Volvo dripless shaft seals I'm tempted to turn and adapter and give one of them a try. On 2019-08-24 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Thank you Paul. I have to look at my stern seal and having all the information is definitely the way to go.Â Yes, industrial rotary seals are not cheap and might exceed yachtie prices.Â Good point on axial movement from forward to reverse.Â My current motor is bedded in rails solid to the hull but it has no dedicated thrust bearing.Â The transmission as to react axial.loads and it will inevitably have some axial backlash.Â My boat is glass, and I am not eager to do large changes to the stern shaft area.Â I already know It would be prudent to do major work on the rudder.Â I am considering replacing the entire thing -- I suspect it is a brazed? bronze frame embedded in filler and glass.Â I would replace it with a Brent style steel welded unit, possibly stainless or marine aluminium.Â I will need a water tight rotary seal there too.Â I will see how that goes. Matt | 36114|8182|2019-08-25 17:10:25|opuspaul|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box|UHMWPE would be my choice too. Whatever you do, don't use nylon. It swells in water. My parents had a boat with nylon rudder bearings and after a few years it go so tight that you could hardly move the tiller. We had to take it apart and re-machine the bearings. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Matt, For my rudder I turned bearing and seal holders out of UHMWPE. I did this on a 7x14 mini lathe, a tool that has paid for itself many times over. The ones I made are similar to Tides Marine Type K. The seals (Parker LPDW) are relatively inexpensive from industrial sources. The place I found in Vancouver had a minimum order of five, but that was still much less than the cost for two from a marine supplier. I placed bearings and seals above and below the rudder port and filled the sealed space with grease through a zerk fitting. Part of the motivation for turning my own bearings was that the lower (bottom of full keel) and upper (at hull) rudder supports on my boat had a slight misalignment. The original builder had used rubber cutlass bearings, which are too stiff to deal with the misalignment and led to binding. I turned the outer bearing surface first, then tilted the bearing in the four-jaw chuck before boring the interior, the result was a perfectly aligned rudder that has no play, but that you can push side to side with a single finger. It's also doubly watertight with seals above and below and doesn't leak grease into the water. I melted and recycled UHMWPE for the prototype bearings, but had some trouble with voids developing as the plastic cooled, however you could possibly make bearings out of readily available HDPE (eg. milk bottles) this way. In the end I bought a hunk of UHMWPE to get things done quickly and to the best standard I could. UHMWPE and a lathe are really handy, I also made grooved cutlass bearings this way. I was considering replacing the corroded aluminum collar that compressed the packing for my propeller shaft this way as well, but after reading Paul's report on the Volvo dripless shaft seals I'm tempted to turn and adapter and give one of them a try. | 36115|8182|2019-08-26 17:45:23|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box|Been full of grease for around 30 years, no major leaks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Is the shaft scored, damaged or pitted? It should be smooth or no packing will seal it properly, even using grease. Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Brent... ok so far. However in time the grease will flow into the packing which usually starts off the excessive leaking. You would think the grease would be a barrier to leakage.| 36116|8182|2019-08-26 17:53:35|brentswain38|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I use gray plastic hose barbs for rudder bearings, around $1.39 each. The have survived circumnavigations, and decades of cruising with no sign of wear, A 1 1 /2inch OD hose barb fits a 1 1/4 inch shaft perfectly. Available anywhere. No need to machine anything. Matt, For my rudder I turned bearing and seal holders out of UHMWPE. I did this on a 7x14 mini lathe, a tool that has paid for itself many times over. The ones I made are similar to Tides Marine Type K. The seals (Parker LPDW) are relatively inexpensive from industrial sources. The place I found in Vancouver had a minimum order of five, but that was still much less than the cost for two from a marine supplier. I placed bearings and seals above and below the rudder port and filled the sealed space with grease through a zerk fitting. Part of the motivation for turning my own bearings was that the lower (bottom of full keel) and upper (at hull) rudder supports on my boat had a slight misalignment. The original builder had used rubber cutlass bearings, which are too stiff to deal with the misalignment and led to binding. I turned the outer bearing surface first, then tilted the bearing in the four-jaw chuck before boring the interior, the result was a perfectly aligned rudder that has no play, but that you can push side to side with a single finger. It's also doubly watertight with seals above and below and doesn't leak grease into the water. I melted and recycled UHMWPE for the prototype bearings, but had some trouble with voids developing as the plastic cooled, however you could possibly make bearings out of readily available HDPE (eg. milk bottles) this way. In the end I bought a hunk of UHMWPE to get things done quickly and to the best standard I could. UHMWPE and a lathe are really handy, I also made grooved cutlass bearings this way. I was considering replacing the corroded aluminum collar that compressed the packing for my propeller shaft this way as well, but after reading Paul's report on the Volvo dripless shaft seals I'm tempted to turn and adapter and give one of them a try. | 36117|8182|2019-08-26 17:54:11|Rick Jackson|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box|Darren,,, My rudder shaft is offset a tad as well. The whole thing was built to work well being a bit off. The packing was rock hard and I had to heat the collar to get it off so it melted the plastic bushings in the rudder tube.. I need to remake those and I may have to do as you did. My rudder shaft is a bit dinged up and I was wondering If I should have it turned smooth (..010" to .020â€ maybe) then make those bushings fit the new diameter? Sorry for hijacking this thread,,,, On Aug 25, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote:Matt,For my rudder I turned bearing and seal holders out of UHMWPE. I did this on a 7x14 mini lathe, a tool that has paid for itself many times over. The ones I made are similar to Tides Marine Type K. The seals (Parker LPDW) are relatively inexpensive from industrial sources. The place I found in Vancouver had a minimum order of five, but that was still much less than the cost for two from a marine supplier. I placed bearings and seals above and below the rudder port and filled the sealed space with grease through a zerk fitting. Part of the motivation for turning my own bearings was that the lower (bottom of full keel) and upper (at hull) rudder supports on my boat had a slight misalignment. The original builder had used rubber cutlass bearings, which are too stiff to deal with the misalignment and led to binding. I turned the outer bearing surface first, then tilted the bearing in the four-jaw chuck before boring the interior, the result was a perfectly aligned rudder that has no play, but that you can push side to side with a single finger. It's also doubly watertight with seals above and below and doesn't leak grease into the water. I melted and recycled UHMWPE for the prototype bearings, but had some trouble with voids developing as the plastic cooled, however you could possibly make bearings out of readily available HDPE (eg. milk bottles) this way. In the end I bought a hunk of UHMWPE to get things done quickly and to the best standard I could.UHMWPE and a lathe are really handy, I also made grooved cutlass bearings this way. I was considering replacing the corroded aluminum collar that compressed the packing for my propeller shaft this way as well, but after reading Paul's report on the Volvo dripless shaft seals I'm tempted to turn and adapter and give one of them a try.On 2019-08-24 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Thank you Paul. I have to look at my stern seal and having all the information is definitely the way to go. Yes, industrial rotary seals are not cheap and might exceed yachtie prices. Good point on axial movement from forward to reverse. My current motor is bedded in rails solid to the hull but it has no dedicated thrust bearing. The transmission as to react axial.loads and it will inevitably have some axial backlash. My boat is glass, and I am not eager to do large changes to the stern shaft area. I already know It would be prudent to do major work on the rudder. I am considering replacing the entire thing -- I suspect it is a brazed? bronze frame embedded in filler and glass. I would replace it with a Brent style steel welded unit, possibly stainless or marine aluminium. I will need a water tight rotary seal there too. I will see how that goes.Matt| 36118|8182|2019-08-27 11:45:07|Darren Bos|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box| Rick, A smooth shaft would be better.Â I suspect the bearing would tolerate just bringing the shaft back to its original dimensions (removing the high spots from dings), however the seals require a smooth uniform surface.Â The only problem with turning the shaft down a bit is that you are then stuck with always having to make custom bearings.Â Not a big problem, but something to keep in mind.Â Vesconite has a nice calculator to give you an idea of the dimensions and tolerances you need to work to.Â They also have bunch of other tech info for designing bearings, including the sizing you need for press fit, or freeze fit, or mechanical fit. On 2019-08-25 12:33 p.m., Rick Jackson svsalmoneyes@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Darren,,, Â My rudder shaft is offset a tad as well. The whole thing was built to work well being a bit off. Â The packing was rock hard and I had to heat the collar to get it off so it melted the plastic bushings in the rudder tube.. Â I need to remake those and I may have to do as you did. Â My rudder shaft is a bit dinged up and I was wondering If I should have it turned smooth (..010" to .020â€ maybe) then make those bushings fit the new diameter?Â Sorry for hijacking this thread,,,,Â On Aug 25, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] wrote: Matt, For my rudder I turned bearing and seal holders out of UHMWPE.Â I did this on a 7x14 mini lathe, a tool that has paid for itself many times over.Â The ones I made are similar toÂ Tides Marine Type K.Â The seals (Parker LPDW) are relatively inexpensive from industrial sources.Â The place I found in Vancouver had a minimum order of five, but that was still much less than the cost for two from a marine supplier.Â I placed bearings and seals above and below the rudder port and filled the sealed space with grease through a zerk fitting.Â Part of the motivation for turning my own bearings was that the lower (bottom of full keel) and upper (at hull) rudder supports on my boat had a slight misalignment.Â The original builder had used rubber cutlass bearings, which are too stiff to deal with the misalignment and led to binding.Â I turned the outer bearing surface first, then tilted the bearing in the four-jaw chuck before boring the interior, the result was a perfectly aligned rudder that has no play, but that you can push side to side with a single finger.Â It's also doubly watertight with seals above and below and doesn't leak grease into the water.Â I melted and recycled UHMWPE for the prototype bearings, but had some trouble with voids developing as the plastic cooled, however you could possibly make bearings out of readily available HDPE (eg. milk bottles) this way.Â Â In the end I bought a hunk of UHMWPE to get things done quickly and to the best standard I could. UHMWPE and a lathe are really handy, I also made grooved cutlass bearings this way.Â I was considering replacing the corroded aluminum collar that compressed the packing for my propeller shaft this way as well, but after reading Paul's report on the Volvo dripless shaft seals I'm tempted to turn and adapter and give one of them a try. On 2019-08-24 8:43 p.m., Matt MaloneÂ m_j_malone@...Â [origamiboats] wrote: Â Thank you Paul. I have to look at my stern seal and having all the information is definitely the way to go.Â Yes, industrial rotary seals are not cheap and might exceed yachtie prices.Â Good point on axial movement from forward to reverse.Â My current motor is bedded in rails solid to the hull but it has no dedicated thrust bearing.Â The transmission as to react axial.loads and it will inevitably have some axial backlash.Â My boat is glass, and I am not eager to do large changes to the stern shaft area.Â Â I already know It would be prudent to do major work on the rudder.Â I am considering replacing the entire thing -- I suspect it is a brazed? bronze frame embedded in filler and glass.Â I would replace it with a Brent style steel welded unit, possibly stainless or marine aluminium.Â I will need a water tight rotary seal there too.Â I will see how that goes. Matt | 36119|8182|2019-08-27 16:05:47|brentswain38|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box|If you have the room , go a bit longer on the rubber hose on your stuffing box. That lets you trim a bit off later, and put your packing on new, unscored shaft. On a ruder shaft ,bringing the rudder tube a bit above the waterline ,makes it less dependent on a prefect seal, when at the dock.| 36120|36120|2019-08-28 19:10:55|opuspaul|Abandoned boats.|2300 boats abandoned. Is that possible? Such a shame. What is wrong with people? I would have killed to get some of these boats when I was younger. https://www.ibinews.com/canadian-volunteer-group-approaching-milestone-in-abandoned-vessel-recovery-efforts/34663.article| 36121|36120|2019-08-29 13:31:45|Matt Malone|Re: Abandoned boats.| #ygrps-yiv-1395651696 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} There are 25,725km of BC coastline. That would have to be about one boat every 11 km of coastline. It is not inconceivable if one considers the number of people involved in the water in all of BC's history. If they count every waterlogged skiff, rowboat and canoe that was never a registered "boat", then sure 2,300 would be easy to reach. If they are counting all the boats in boatyards and floating in slips that are no longer being paid for, and therefore "abandoned" then sure, I believe it. Every boatyard and marina I have seen has a few abandoned boats they will give you for free, or virtually for free on the condition that it leaves and never comes back. If they are talking about only once-registered boats sunk along coastlines that seems a little hard to believe. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 7:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Abandoned boats. 2300 boats abandoned. Is that possible? Such a shame. What is wrong with people? I would have killed to get some of these boats when I was younger. https://www.ibinews.com/canadian-volunteer-group-approaching-milestone-in-abandoned-vessel-recovery-efforts/34663.article | 36122|8182|2019-08-29 22:48:29|Rick Jackson|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box|Thanks Brentâ€¦ Mine has a stuffing box built in to the rudder tubeâ€¦ It looks pretty bad. I hate to replace it but my stern tube was cut long so Ill have some extra to build a new oneâ€¦ Since ours was built off set a bit Ill have to try to reproduce it which will take some doing On Aug 27, 2019, at 1:02 PM, brentswain38@hotmail.com [origamiboats] wrote:If you have the room , go a bit longer on the rubber hose on your stuffing box. That lets you trim a bit off later, and put your packing on new, unscored shaft. On a ruder shaft ,bringing the rudder tube a bit above the waterline ,makes it less dependent on a prefect seal, when at the dock.| 36123|1067|2019-08-29 22:49:04|Matt Hixson|Dove 3|Hello metal boat friends, I'm the current owner of Dove 3 of Northwest Passage fame. My wife and I inherited this boat from a friend who recently passed away. While we had intended to work on it and learn the ways of sailing we just haven't found the time and energy to do that. Our interests lie in other hobbies and adventures and I would like to find someone interested in purchasing Dove 3 and getting it out onto the water where it's meant to be. I'm just now beginning to explore what it's going to take as far as official title/insurance and anything else needed for selling her. Does anyone know of a handy guide on how to go about the selling and transfer of ownership of a boat in Washington State? Thanks for reading. Hopefully we can find Dove a happy home. Cheers, -Matt| 36124|36120|2019-08-29 23:01:09|brentswain38|Re: Abandoned boats.|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1527105279 #ygrps-yiv-1527105279ygrps-yiv-840189329 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Yes that number sounds quite far fetched.There a scam afloat by people wanting to scam taxpayers for the removal of boats which represent no real threat.An outfit in Ladysmith scammed taxpayers out of a million dollars for the removal of an old wooden packer. What threat did it pose?Wood pollution, from a wooden hull? Beaches here are piled high with wood. Iron pollution from the engine? 12% of the earths crust is iron ore, including most meteorites which have slam,ed in for billions of yearsOil products? It doesn't take a million dollars to remove the small amount of oil you would find remaining, on a boat formerly belonging to someone who couldn't afford much of the stuff.Removing that would make the boat environmentally inert. No, the disinformation of the scammers ruled the day. There are 25,725km of BC coastline. That would have to be about one boat every 11 km of coastline. It is not inconceivable if one considers the number of people involved in the water in all of BC's history. If they count every waterlogged skiff, rowboat and canoe that was never a registered "boat", then sure 2,300 would be easy to reach. If they are counting all the boats in boatyards and floating in slips that are no longer being paid for, and therefore "abandoned" then sure, I believe it. Every boatyard and marina I have seen has a few abandoned boats they will give you for free, or virtually for free on the condition that it leaves and never comes back. If they are talking about only once-registered boats sunk along coastlines that seems a little hard to believe. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 7:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Abandoned boats. 2300 boats abandoned. Is that possible? Such a shame. What is wrong with people? I would have killed to get some of these boats when I was younger. https://www.ibinews.com/canadian-volunteer-group-approaching-milestone-in-abandoned-vessel-recovery-efforts/34663.article| 36125|8182|2019-08-30 11:30:14|aguysailing|Re: Stuffing Box|Paul... the Penta Shaft tube sounds very good. I am sure my shaft has some scoring by now and but am not enthused about replacing it. I am thinking of going this route but then again I have a stern tube full of grease from trying that out. I have a very wet bilge.Secondly: My engine is vibrating the boat way too much of late (engine is Isuzu 50 hp and 5 yrs from new). The mounts were put in 14 years ago at the launch of my new 36 ..first on a 29 hp Yanmar and then the same mounts for the Isuzu install. I read previous Brent posts and replies about engine mounts so there is a debate here. Much was said about what not to buy but no recommends (unless I missed it) about a set of mounts that have withstood test of time (and would apply to the Isuzu).Thanks.....Gary| 36126|36120|2019-08-30 12:00:31|aguysailing|Re: Abandoned boats.|Abandoned boats seem to be finding new homes. I have noticed increasingly on this coast old docks being tied together and sometimes battered barges/docks together. Older boats are then tied up to what eventually looks like mini marinas floating in harbours here providing at least a home for some people. However, I am thinking that at some time this might also become an issue highlighting the cost of housing in BC. | 36127|8182|2019-08-30 19:45:49|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|The Penta seal won't work on a scored shaft. The only seals that work on a badly scored shaft are ones that use a fixed collar that attaches to the shaft like a PSS shaft seal. I am not a machinist but maybe the shaft could be built up and resurfaced rather than replaced.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43SJakLTA8Why is the engine vibrating? Are one of the existing mounts broken or is it running rough? If it is running rough, you might want to get the injectors checked. If you want adjustable mounts, I like the ones made by Bushings. They are vastly superior to the ones made by Yanmar which I love to hate ;). I used the DF-100s on my 35hp Isuzu. You might need bigger. Maybe the D-216 or 236? They should last you 20 to 25 yrs. You can buy 4 for about half the cost of a single Yanmar mount.https://www.fisheriessupply.com/bushings-inc-5-8-in-stud-low-clearance-dual-flex-engine-mount-df-100https://www.fisheriessupply.com/bushings-inc-3-4-in-stud-dual-flex-engine-mount-low-clearance-df-216https://bushingsinc.com/images/bushing_inc/PDF_DOCS/DF-236-M1-SERIES.pdfhttps://bushingsinc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=143Good luck, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Paul... the Penta Shaft tube sounds very good. I am sure my shaft has some scoring by now and but am not enthused about replacing it. I am thinking of going this route but then again I have a stern tube full of grease from trying that out. I have a very wet bilge.Secondly: My engine is vibrating the boat way too much of late (engine is Isuzu 50 hp and 5 yrs from new). The mounts were put in 14 years ago at the launch of my new 36 ..first on a 29 hp Yanmar and then the same mounts for the Isuzu install. I read previous Brent posts and replies about engine mounts so there is a debate here. Much was said about what not to buy but no recommends (unless I missed it) about a set of mounts that have withstood test of time (and would apply to the Isuzu).Thanks.....Gary| 36128|8182|2019-08-30 19:58:23|Matt Malone|Re: Stuffing Box| #ygrps-yiv-1181325350 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I would be surprised if a hard plastic like epoxy or even nail polish would not be sufficient to smooth out fine scores sufficiently to hold back the pressure of a few feet of water. Adding metal by mig or tig and then grinding it back is two orders of magnitude more work. Yes, it is possible that the shaft might have to be pulled into the boat a centimetre, the seal contact area dried, and a drop of the plastic reapplied from time to time, and sanded with 2000 grit sandpaper, but as it is just plastic filling scores in a metal shaft, that seems like a lot less trouble. It is not like a hair of epoxy in a longitudinal score is suddenly going to fail and gush water. Also, do not underestimate a film of thick grease at the seal point. It is not like the seal can preferrentially dig down into the scores and wear away the epoxy. Sure debris in the water can, in time, but that seems to me to be something that would be very slow. Debris in the water will also cause the seal to sand down a circular wear grove in the shaft. One could always do the mig or tig route later if it becomes a hassle. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 7:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box The Penta seal won't work on a scored shaft. The only seals that work on a badly scored shaft are ones that use a fixed collar that attaches to the shaft like a PSS shaft seal. I am not a machinist but maybe the shaft could be built up and resurfaced rather than replaced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43SJakLTA8 Why is the engine vibrating? Are one of the existing mounts broken or is it running rough? If it is running rough, you might want to get the injectors checked. If you want adjustable mounts, I like the ones made by Bushings. They are vastly superior to the ones made by Yanmar which I love to hate ;). I used the DF-100s on my 35hp Isuzu. You might need bigger. Maybe the D-216 or 236? They should last you 20 to 25 yrs. You can buy 4 for about half the cost of a single Yanmar mount. https://www.fisheriessupply.com/bushings-inc-5-8-in-stud-low-clearance-dual-flex-engine-mount-df-100 https://www.fisheriessupply.com/bushings-inc-3-4-in-stud-dual-flex-engine-mount-low-clearance-df-216 https://bushingsinc.com/images/bushing_inc/PDF_DOCS/DF-236-M1-SERIES.pdf https://bushingsinc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=143 Good luck, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Paul... the Penta Shaft tube sounds very good. I am sure my shaft has some scoring by now and but am not enthused about replacing it. I am thinking of going this route but then again I have a stern tube full of grease from trying that out. I have a very wet bilge. Secondly: My engine is vibrating the boat way too much of late (engine is Isuzu 50 hp and 5 yrs from new). The mounts were put in 14 years ago at the launch of my new 36 ..first on a 29 hp Yanmar and then the same mounts for the Isuzu install. I read previous Brent posts and replies about engine mounts so there is a debate here. Much was said about what not to buy but no recommends (unless I missed it) about a set of mounts that have withstood test of time (and would apply to the Isuzu). Thanks.....Gary | 36129|8182|2019-08-30 20:31:47|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|They use hard, machineable epoxy (like JB Weld) for repairing shafts where bearings mount but I am not sure it is that good where a seal is supposed to run full time. The epoxy surface is fairly rough compared to a SS shaft. You might be better off trying to put something over the shaft like a Redi or Speedi sleeve. Paulhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M75BIjEiCRkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtvnan20XvQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21MUQ8u7nZIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naNeoCwgGQU---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-507624570 #ygrps-yiv-507624570ygrps-yiv-1750673424 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I would be surprised if a hard plastic like epoxy or even nail polish would not be sufficient to smooth out fine scores sufficiently to hold back the pressure of a few feet of water. Adding metal by mig or tig and then grinding it back is two orders of magnitude more work. Yes, it is possible that the shaft might have to be pulled into the boat a centimetre, the seal contact area dried, and a drop of the plastic reapplied from time to time, and sanded with 2000 grit sandpaper, but as it is just plastic filling scores in a metal shaft, that seems like a lot less trouble. It is not like a hair of epoxy in a longitudinal score is suddenly going to fail and gush water. Also, do not underestimate a film of thick grease at the seal point. It is not like the seal can preferrentially dig down into the scores and wear away the epoxy. Sure debris in the water can, in time, but that seems to me to be something that would be very slow. Debris in the water will also cause the seal to sand down a circular wear grove in the shaft. One could always do the mig or tig route later if it becomes a hassle. Matt | 36130|8182|2019-08-30 20:40:18|Matt Malone|Re: Stuffing Box| #ygrps-yiv-1788763967 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Never heard of those. A Speedi sleeve seems both easy and durable. I'd do that before migging or tigging and grinding -- there is always the chance of warping, or changing the temper of the metal and getting weird corrosion whenever one welds higher alloy stuff like shaft material. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 8:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box They use hard, machineable epoxy (like JB Weld) for repairing shafts where bearings mount but I am not sure it is that good where a seal is supposed to run full time. The epoxy surface is fairly rough compared to a SS shaft. You might be better off trying to put something over the shaft like a Redi or Speedi sleeve. Paul https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M75BIjEiCRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtvnan20XvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21MUQ8u7nZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naNeoCwgGQU ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I would be surprised if a hard plastic like epoxy or even nail polish would not be sufficient to smooth out fine scores sufficiently to hold back the pressure of a few feet of water. Adding metal by mig or tig and then grinding it back is two orders of magnitude more work. Yes, it is possible that the shaft might have to be pulled into the boat a centimetre, the seal contact area dried, and a drop of the plastic reapplied from time to time, and sanded with 2000 grit sandpaper, but as it is just plastic filling scores in a metal shaft, that seems like a lot less trouble. It is not like a hair of epoxy in a longitudinal score is suddenly going to fail and gush water. Also, do not underestimate a film of thick grease at the seal point. It is not like the seal can preferrentially dig down into the scores and wear away the epoxy. Sure debris in the water can, in time, but that seems to me to be something that would be very slow. Debris in the water will also cause the seal to sand down a circular wear grove in the shaft. One could always do the mig or tig route later if it becomes a hassle. Matt | 36131|8182|2019-08-30 21:04:46|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|Sometimes you need to push or keep asking questions until you find out about the cheaper alternatives. Machine shops and prop shops want to sell you and machine you a whole new shaft.This is something else they don't want you to know about. A tapered shaft adaptor. It allows you to put a larger bored prop on a smaller shaft. If you happen to have the wrong size prop, it can save you a lot of money.https://www.generalpropeller.com/Nylon-Bore-ReducersPaul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-1616937386 #ygrps-yiv-1616937386ygrps-yiv-393572942 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Never heard of those. A Speedi sleeve seems both easy and durable. I'd do that before migging or tigging and grinding -- there is always the chance of warping, or changing the temper of the metal and getting weird corrosion whenever one welds higher alloy stuff like shaft material. Matt | 36132|8182|2019-08-31 15:21:28|aguysailing|Re: Stuffing Box|Good info.. thanks looks like what I need. So what is the difference between Redi and Speedi sleave and what would be the best bet for my scored OD 1.25" diameter prop shaft....I am also going to look into the engine "running rough" and also the low cost engine mounts.The Brent way of dealing with engine mounts I do wonder about the absorption of the engine vibration which would seem to be the hull and what is that effect?... thanks for the posts...| 36133|8182|2019-09-03 14:25:27|Rick Jackson|Re: Stuffing Box|Hi GaryI purchased new mounts from Seaboard Marine in Oxnard California. They have a range of durometer so you can get super soft or rock hard with a number options in between. They are also rebuildable with parts readily available. We are keeping a kit on board for emergencies.I know you asked about mounts that stood the test of time, so I can not comment on that. Time will tell but these are well built mounts. Rick On Aug 30, 2019, at 8:30 AM, aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote:Paul... the Penta Shaft tube sounds very good. I am sure my shaft has some scoring by now and but am not enthused about replacing it. I am thinking of going this route but then again I have a stern tube full of grease from trying that out. I have a very wet bilge.Secondly: My engine is vibrating the boat way too much of late (engine is Isuzu 50 hp and 5 yrs from new). The mounts were put in 14 years ago at the launch of my new 36 ..first on a 29 hp Yanmar and then the same mounts for the Isuzu install. I read previous Brent posts and replies about engine mounts so there is a debate here. Much was said about what not to buy but no recommends (unless I missed it) about a set of mounts that have withstood test of time (and would apply to the Isuzu).Thanks.....Gary| 36134|36134|2019-09-03 14:27:12|twgconft|Selling (and Buying) a Boat in WA|Re. Dove 3 - Matt Hixson > Does anyone know of a handy guide on how to go about the selling and> transfer of ownership of a boat in Washington State? Short answer - see the WA DOL site, for example https://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/docvessels.html and associated links. Glenn P. here. What I did to buy Jon H.'s BS 36 (twin keel) about 2 years ago. A pretty straightforward process as the boat (was) is in a marina in Ballard, WA (I was able to assume Jon's marina slip). Note marina slips seem a bit hard to come by, esp. if you want to eventually 'upgrade' to a live-aboard - or at least they were when all this happened. 1. Jon had a WA title (and registration) for the boat, so it was as simple as selling a car. Seller signs the title, and the old title becomes a bearer instrument as far as I know. 2. We walked up to the WA title office in Ballard, and I paid him the $, he signed the title, and I got a new title for the boat in my name. Very straightforward, as we were both there I assume - I don't buy many boats...3. WA state whacks you for like 15% of the recorded sale price for what I call an excise tax, and more fees of course for the title and yearly registration. And of course you need your boater education card. 4. WA now requires boats in a marina to have at least liability insurance, with the marina listed as an 'Additional Insured'. That was an issue for me, because: 5. Boat insurance, at least for home built steel pleasure boats that are not new (mine was like 12 yrs old at the time of purchase), require a haul and survey. And the survey report needs to be quite extensive (describing the boat and equipment). I did not pay for a rig or engine survey. Note that the insurance companies I contacted said no haul was required, until I called to get the boat insured - so I could assume the marina slip contract. Fortunately Jon as the PO was patient, and the marina owner was accommodating. FYI - I went with Geico, and the yearly cost for me was not much more than my motorcycle ins. (Coastal and Inland waters of the US and Canada). And they toss in BoatUS towing ! (but not the membership - that's like $10 more). Such a deal!As I had no liability ins, Jon was willing to help me get the boat to and from Canal Boat yard for the haul and survey, and I did a bottom job just because. A bit of a chicken and egg story. Note also the survey report (and now the required more extensive one) took several weeks to produce, so all was in limbo for a while. Typical boat buying frustration it seems. 6. I have not yet decided on pursuing getting a USCG registration for the boat, as WA requires the yearly registration and lettering and decal no matter what. All that means to me is I need to carve the assigned VIN number into the transom (and inside someplace), something not required for documented vessels. Moral of the story ? - Plan on paying for the haul and survey no matter what, or buy a boat on the hard (subject to a sea trial; with the surveyor if you want to pay for it). That would get rather expensive unless you run across a great BS 36 like I did right off the bat. Now off to continue my refit (batts and upgraded Nav, etc.) and then off to live on the good ship Tazzeron. And get sailing. | 36135|8182|2019-09-03 14:33:42|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box|I have wrapped a 16 gauge shim around a 1 inch shaft to convert it for a 1 1/8th inch bore prop,and torqued it on, forming the shape, leaving a gap for the keyway. Worked well. Heated 1/8th inch for a conversion from 1 inch to 1 1/4 inch ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Sometimes you need to push or keep asking questions until you find out about the cheaper alternatives. Machine shops and prop shops want to sell you and machine you a whole new shaft.This is something else they don't want you to know about. A tapered shaft adaptor. It allows you to put a larger bored prop on a smaller shaft. If you happen to have the wrong size prop, it can save you a lot of money.https://www.generalpropeller.com/Nylon-Bore-ReducersPaul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-396994699 #ygrps-yiv-396994699ygrps-yiv-106403233 #ygrps-yiv-396994699ygrps-yiv-106403233ygrps-yiv-393572942 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Never heard of those. A Speedi sleeve seems both easy and durable. I'd do that before migging or tigging and grinding -- there is always the chance of warping, or changing the temper of the metal and getting weird corrosion whenever one welds higher alloy stuff like shaft material. Matt | 36136|8182|2019-09-03 14:45:31|Rick Jackson|Re: Rudder Bearings and Seals was: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box|Thanks Brentâ€¦ Mine has a stuffing box built in to the rudder tubeâ€¦ It looks pretty bad. I hate to replace it but my stern tube was cut long so Ill have some extra to build a new oneâ€¦ Since ours was built off set a bit Ill have to try to reproduce it which will take some doing. On Aug 27, 2019, at 1:02 PM, brentswain38@hotmail.com [origamiboats] wrote:If you have the room , go a bit longer on the rubber hose on your stuffing box. That lets you trim a bit off later, and put your packing on new, unscored shaft. On a ruder shaft ,bringing the rudder tube a bit above the waterline ,makes it less dependent on a prefect seal, when at the dock.| 36137|8182|2019-09-03 20:22:13|opuspaul|Re: Stuffing Box|I haven't personally used them but I have had a hydraulic pump repaired with them. I would assume they are different brands of the same thing.I was thinking about your rough engine. Is is only when in gear? You might want to check and see if the shaft is bent or the coupling not straight on the shaft. Disconnect it and hook up a dial gauge or try with some feeler gauges against the transmission flange and see if there is any wobble when you spin the shaft. I like to get it within 3 thousands of an inch. If it is 10 or 15, that is too much. The coupling should be a very tight fit.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JILP_4GJJH0---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Good info.. thanks looks like what I need. So what is the difference between Redi and Speedi sleave and what would be the best bet for my scored OD 1.25" diameter prop shaft....I am also going to look into the engine "running rough" and also the low cost engine mounts.The Brent way of dealing with engine mounts I do wonder about the absorption of the engine vibration which would seem to be the hull and what is that effect?... thanks for the posts...| 36138|36134|2019-09-03 22:14:46|twgconft|Re: Selling (and Buying) a Boat in WA|Correction. My boat does require a HIN (what I called a VIN). Rules changed here in 2017 ? And the way I read it, had I gone down the path of getting the boat USCG documented, I would not have had to pay what I called a WA excise tax. Don't know. I did see though that you can pay for multiple years ahead to the USCG, so my worry of dealing with a yearly USCG bill while away seems moot. And of course remove the WA registration numbers, but not the yearly WA registration 'tag'. And then there is the dingy WA registration numbers that WA requires. If I change to a documented vessel, does my dingy require the xx-1 WA vessel registration, the one I just removed from the boat? Confusing. I think I will take my chances that foreign countries will accept my WA state title as proof of ownership - but more research needed. At least I am safe traveling up to Canada. Downside of a documented vessel is that the feds can seize it in a time of 'war', as I recall, anywhere in the world. Unlikely in the extreme, but we have a rather strange leader now; and wars (undeclared ?) seem popular again. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Re. Dove 3 - Matt Hixson > Does anyone know of a handy guide on how to go about the selling and> transfer of ownership of a boat in Washington State? Short answer - see the WA DOL site, for example https://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/docvessels.html and associated links. Glenn P. here. What I did to buy Jon H.'s BS 36 (twin keel) about 2 years ago. A pretty straightforward process as the boat (was) is in a marina in Ballard, WA (I was able to assume Jon's marina slip). Note marina slips seem a bit hard to come by, esp. if you want to eventually 'upgrade' to a live-aboard - or at least they were when all this happened. 1. Jon had a WA title (and registration) for the boat, so it was as simple as selling a car. Seller signs the title, and the old title becomes a bearer instrument as far as I know. 2. We walked up to the WA title office in Ballard, and I paid him the $, he signed the title, and I got a new title for the boat in my name. Very straightforward, as we were both there I assume - I don't buy many boats...3. WA state whacks you for like 15% of the recorded sale price for what I call an excise tax, and more fees of course for the title and yearly registration. And of course you need your boater education card. 4. WA now requires boats in a marina to have at least liability insurance, with the marina listed as an 'Additional Insured'. That was an issue for me, because: 5. Boat insurance, at least for home built steel pleasure boats that are not new (mine was like 12 yrs old at the time of purchase), require a haul and survey. And the survey report needs to be quite extensive (describing the boat and equipment). I did not pay for a rig or engine survey. Note that the insurance companies I contacted said no haul was required, until I called to get the boat insured - so I could assume the marina slip contract. Fortunately Jon as the PO was patient, and the marina owner was accommodating. FYI - I went with Geico, and the yearly cost for me was not much more than my motorcycle ins. (Coastal and Inland waters of the US and Canada). And they toss in BoatUS towing ! (but not the membership - that's like $10 more). Such a deal!As I had no liability ins, Jon was willing to help me get the boat to and from Canal Boat yard for the haul and survey, and I did a bottom job just because. A bit of a chicken and egg story. Note also the survey report (and now the required more extensive one) took several weeks to produce, so all was in limbo for a while. Typical boat buying frustration it seems. 6. I have not yet decided on pursuing getting a USCG registration for the boat, as WA requires the yearly registration and lettering and decal no matter what. All that means to me is I need to carve the assigned VIN number into the transom (and inside someplace), something not required for documented vessels. Moral of the story ? - Plan on paying for the haul and survey no matter what, or buy a boat on the hard (subject to a sea trial; with the surveyor if you want to pay for it). That would get rather expensive unless you run across a great BS 36 like I did right off the bat. Now off to continue my refit (batts and upgraded Nav, etc.) and then off to live on the good ship Tazzeron. And get sailing. | 36139|36139|2019-09-04 00:09:05|SHANE ROTHWELL|Lifting Eyes|Was thinking of putting lifting eyes in the bullworks of the Dove.Brent, you mentioned they should be 20'6" from fwd.But Winston put suppers in centred at 19'11" & built em right scookum.I am assuming that that is close enough & any imbalance on a lift can be worked out with a line/wire fore or probably aft??Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36140|36139|2019-09-04 09:47:19|Matt Malone|Re: Lifting Eyes| Would most places have rigging to hook to eyes or just straps on a travel lift frame? I imagine the rigging would be steel cable or chains, and shorter than straps. Short and steel seems less stretchy, and more prone to put unequal loads on the eyes. Eyes would at least make it obvious the proper location of lifting straps. Matt From: SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019, 00:11 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Lifting Eyes Was thinking of putting lifting eyes in the bullworks of the Dove. Brent, you mentioned they should be 20'6" from fwd. But Winston put suppers in centred at 19'11" & built em right scookum. I am assuming that that is close enough & any imbalance on a lift can be worked out with a line/wire fore or probably aft?? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android | 36141|36139|2019-09-05 22:29:20|brentswain38|Re: Lifting Eyes|Yes a comealong aft, from the lifting hook, lightly loaded , will balance her, with very little load on the comealong.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Was thinking of putting lifting eyes in the bullworks of the Dove.Brent, you mentioned they should be 20'6" from fwd.But Winston put suppers in centred at 19'11" & built em right scookum.I am assuming that that is close enough & any imbalance on a lift can be worked out with a line/wire fore or probably aft??Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36142|8182|2019-09-06 10:47:04|aguysailing|Re: Stuffing Box|Nice to hear from you Rick and thanks for the info. Quite a lot of choice available so my next call will be to the dealer of this 50 hp Isuzu and see what they say. I will post what they say.... Gary| 36143|8182|2019-09-06 10:51:35|aguysailing|Re: Stuffing Box|Paul... Good Vibrations are no vibrations (or tolerable) ... I will check that out... interesting vid btw.....Gary| 36144|36139|2019-09-06 10:54:41|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Lifting Eyes|Exellent. Many thanksSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36145|36139|2019-09-06 17:46:05|Matt Hixson|Re: Lifting Eyes|Hi, Shane. Which Dove do you own? Was it built by Winston? I have Dove III. Cheers, -Matt On 9/3/19 9:08 PM, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: > Â > > Was thinking of putting lifting eyes in the bullworks of the Dove. > > Brent, you mentioned they should be 20'6" from fwd. > But Winston put suppers in centred at 19'11" & built em right scookum. > I am assuming that that is close enough & any imbalance on a lift can be > worked out with a line/wire fore or probably aft?? > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > | 36146|36120|2019-09-07 18:01:57|brentswain38|Re: Abandoned boats.| I just wrote an article for the BC Nautical Residents Association,mentioning how a local hotel manager said he couldn't operate without the liveaboards, living on such boats around here. They make up the clear majority of his staff, and without their ability to afford to live here, by living on their boats,they would not be here, and there would be no one to do the work.He said without them he would be screwwd! As it is they are chronically short of staff in summer,some of those youth working to exhaustion. A lot of businesses cant get staff, because they are in an area staff can't afford to live.Many have been formerly homeless, until they discovered boats to live on.Yes Paul, we could have only dreamed of so many boats free, or almost free, back when we were young , and looking for our first boat.Ditto the huge amount of used gear available here now. We had to buy a lot of that stuff new,no alternative back then. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Abandoned boats seem to be finding new homes. I have noticed increasingly on this coast old docks being tied together and sometimes battered barges/docks together. Older boats are then tied up to what eventually looks like mini marinas floating in harbours here providing at least a home for some people. However, I am thinking that at some time this might also become an issue highlighting the cost of housing in BC. | 36147|36147|2019-09-08 11:44:41|SHANE ROTHWELL|Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Navico tp5500Appeared dead as when power applied but nothing looks amiss to my untrained eye.Probably something simple but need someone to test & assess.Does anyone know decent electrogeek?ThanksSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36148|36147|2019-09-10 18:08:28|opuspaul|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|I am not 100% sure but I think the old Navico and Simrad TP series of tillerpilots are almost the same. You can download the manuals and schematics here. It might get a geek started. FWIW, I would buy a used Simrad versus a Raymarine just because I can get the schematics.http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/Simrad_Documents.htm#AP16I still have my original Navico pilot. Don't believe the advertisers BS about marine electronics being waterproof. Common problems are the drive transistors failing, the motor/belt/geartrain failing or the buttons leaking. The circuit boards aren't very well sealed on tillerpilots (especially on the older units) so look for corrosion or burned components. It is a good idea to run any tillerpilot in a plastic bag if it is exposed to salt spray or a lot of rain. The gimbaled fluxgate compass sensors will fail after time on any brand autopilot, especially if they are banged around a lot. Treat any autopilot like eggs. The wires to the sensor are about the size of a human hair so keep in mind when you are moving them around the knocking sound inside is an extremely fragile component. If the wires or the windings are broken, there is not much you can do other than replace it. I tried rewinding one by hand once but it was a real mission...not recommended.Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Navico tp5500Appeared dead as when power applied but nothing looks amiss to my untrained eye.Probably something simple but need someone to test & assess.Does anyone know decent electrogeek?ThanksSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36149|36147|2019-09-12 16:47:55|brentswain38|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I keep mine below decks ,powering a jog stick, hooked to to my trimtab, on the trailing edge of my rudder. It uses a solid rod linkage, but one can make a type of morse cable with a piece of rigging wire inside the right size plastic tubing. That is far less likely to freeze up, and has far more travel than a morse cable. This also gives you an extremely simple inside steering.How does the Navico work on a steel boat? No tendency to lock in? How about the Simrad? Was the Simrad what Winston used? I have heard some brands don't like steel boats , and lock in.Not terribly happy with my Raymarine. Nowhere near as good as the Autohelm they took over. May end up looking for something better, eventually. I am not 100% sure but I think the old Navico and Simrad TP series of tillerpilots are almost the same. You can download the manuals and schematics here. It might get a geek started. FWIW, I would buy a used Simrad versus a Raymarine just because I can get the schematics.http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/Simrad_Documents.htm#AP16I still have my original Navico pilot. Don't believe the advertisers BS about marine electronics being waterproof. Common problems are the drive transistors failing, the motor/belt/geartrain failing or the buttons leaking. The circuit boards aren't very well sealed on tillerpilots (especially on the older units) so look for corrosion or burned components. It is a good idea to run any tillerpilot in a plastic bag if it is exposed to salt spray or a lot of rain. The gimbaled fluxgate compass sensors will fail after time on any brand autopilot, especially if they are banged around a lot. Treat any autopilot like eggs. The wires to the sensor are about the size of a human hair so keep in mind when you are moving them around the knocking sound inside is an extremely fragile component. If the wires or the windings are broken, there is not much you can do other than replace it. I tried rewinding one by hand once but it was a real mission...not recommended.Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Navico tp5500Appeared dead as when power applied but nothing looks amiss to my untrained eye.Probably something simple but need someone to test & assess.Does anyone know decent electrogeek?ThanksSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36150|36147|2019-09-13 15:16:05|prairiemaidca|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|On Prairie Maid we have been using a Raymarine ST1000 inside the pilot house that can be quickly unhooked so that you can steer manually. I made the pivot arm to accommodate the full travel of the pilot. That is connected to a very heavy duty farm implement cable and then onto the trim tab. With the size of the rudder and the massive amount of pressure required to move the tiller at hull speed that little tiller pilot would have crapped out the first day. With it only having to move the trim tab which requires almost no force it's been working just fine now for years steering nicely for as much as six hours at a time in very heavy wave action. With it inside the boat it never gets wet which is a bonus for longevity. Martin.. (Prairie Maid) | 36151|36147|2019-09-13 18:50:50|Matt Malone|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot| You mention the possibility of a morse cable, and driving a tab. I have seen very stiff all-polymer cables used on model aircraft. Before you laugh, think thicker and steel core. It occurs to me that stainless covered with teflon would both slide well and resist corrosion. Combine that into a trim tab on a hydrovane to amplify the force. It would not be hard to combine it with a windvane option. Using a morse-like cable, there need not be a complicated falible mechanism between the vane and the tab to reverse the sense or rotations or change rotation axes. Trim tabs are notoriously sensitive to the stiffness of control cables. The negative potential result is flutter. Hydrodynamic flutter in the worst case can focus tremendous forces and energies in small areas. Aerodynamic flutter has ripped chunks out of bush airplanes much larger than the original tab. Water has 1,000 times greater density, so even at speeds 3% of aircraft speeds one can have the same forces. Forces scale with the square of speed, energy with the cube of speed. At over 10 knots, the forces can be far greater. This is how tiny hydrofoils lift boats out of the water. Still it seems it might be a way to greatly reduce the energy (A-hr) and forces on a pilot. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019, 16:49 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I keep mine below decks ,powering a jog stick, hooked to to my trimtab, on the trailing edge of my rudder. It uses a solid rod linkage, but one can make a type of morse cable with a piece of rigging wire inside the right size plastic tubing. That is far less likely to freeze up, and has far more travel than a morse cable. This also gives you an extremely simple inside steering. How does the Navico work on a steel boat? No tendency to lock in? How about the Simrad? Was the Simrad what Winston used? I have heard some brands don't like steel boats , and lock in. Not terribly happy with my Raymarine. Nowhere near as good as the Autohelm they took over. May end up looking for something better, eventually. I am not 100% sure but I think the old Navico and Simrad TP series of tillerpilots are almost the same. You can download the manuals and schematics here. It might get a geek started. FWIW, I would buy a used Simrad versus a Raymarine just because I can get the schematics. http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/Simrad_Documents.htm#AP16 I still have my original Navico pilot. Don't believe the advertisers BS about marine electronics being waterproof. Common problems are the drive transistors failing, the motor/belt/geartrain failing or the buttons leaking. The circuit boards aren't very well sealed on tillerpilots (especially on the older units) so look for corrosion or burned components. It is a good idea to run any tillerpilot in a plastic bag if it is exposed to salt spray or a lot of rain. The gimbaled fluxgate compass sensors will fail after time on any brand autopilot, especially if they are banged around a lot. Treat any autopilot like eggs. The wires to the sensor are about the size of a human hair so keep in mind when you are moving them around the knocking sound inside is an extremely fragile component. If the wires or the windings are broken, there is not much you can do other than replace it. I tried rewinding one by hand once but it was a real mission...not recommended. Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Navico tp5500 Appeared dead as when power applied but nothing looks amiss to my untrained eye. Probably something simple but need someone to test & assess. Does anyone know decent electrogeek? Thanks Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android | 36152|36147|2019-09-13 20:18:32|prairiemaidca|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|With a hull speed of less than 7 knot. we have never experienced any difficulties with the auto pilot moving the trim tab. When I used to be a pilot I was always amazed at the way one could use the trim tab to relieve the pressure on the control surfaces. We typically never use the tiller pilot when sailing as our very simple Brent Swain wind steering vane seems to do the trick in all but the lightest of winds. As the tiller pilot is only used when motoring the little bit of power it consumes is not a concern. Martin. (Prairie Maid) currently waiting out gale force winds in the rain at Heriot bay B.C. | 36153|36147|2019-09-14 01:25:42|opuspaul|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|I have never run my autopilot down below or in a wheelhouse but run it direct to the tab. I just lift it on or off the tab depending on if I am using the windvane. I have never had flutter from the tab. I think it can be a problem with high speed mulithulls when they go 15 knots or more but not a problem on monohulls. Having said that, it is important to have balanced tab without it being overbalanced if you want good sensitivity in light winds.The original Navico autopilots when they came out used a hall effect sensor for a magnetic sensor. They were not very good since they weren't very sensitive and gave early Navico autopilots a poor reputation but I don't think they have made them for probably 30 years. The software may be slightly different but I don't think the sensor in a Navico/Simrad is now any different than a Raymarine/Autohelm. If you take the autopilot apart, they look the same. Any flux sensor won't work very well if it is too close to the steel. Under power in calms, it might not matter much but with a boat rolling or pitching the magnetic field will shift as the mass of the boat moves in relation to the sensor. If you are mounting direct to the tab, it is a good idea to mount them as far from the transom and as close to the centerline as you can. Up on the rail to a linkage to the tab would be ideal and relatively easy if you already have a windvane. I actually took the flux sensor out of my Navico and mounted it on the rail in an old aluminum housing from an aircraft flux sensor. It was tricky so I wouldn't recommend it unless you have an electronics background and understand what you are doing. You can see it in the video here. It is the half dome looking thingy with the black wire running to it up on the rail. I am sailing under windvane and the autopilot is just laying there, waiting to be put to the tab if I need it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK_JT2HGb3s Brent's system of mounting the autopilot inside through a drive cable is simple and has the added advantage of keeping the autopilot out of the weather. Whatever system you use, whether it is direct to the tab or through a cable, make sure the linkage doesn't get smashed or bent if you go hard over with the rudder. It will happen. Paul| 36154|36147|2019-09-14 10:22:05|Matt Malone|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot| I managed to make a rudder for a daysailer the went into flutter at around 6 knots in the middle of the lake. It sounded like a reciprocating saw run by a lawnmower engine. The part itself was 3/4" plywood, about 3 feet x 16" in extent, so quite stiff vs out of plane flexing or twisting. There was a tiny slop in the commercial pintles and gudgeons and a tiny slop in the rotating rudder vane inside the head box. Slop makes vibration easier, but it is not essential. Elasticity in the element can do it, or elasticity in linkages. The problem is, flutter does not necessarily come on gently. When it starts at a speed it can amplify quickly and latch-in. One must slow the boat substantially below the initial onset speed to get it out of flutter. If it is a flutter that will cause damage, it is too late. I would definitely want to try a morse cable on a balanced trimtab on a hydrovane, but I would want the most breakable spot to be a shear bolt or something, not something essential, like the hull. Matt From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019, 01:25 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot I have never run my autopilot down below or in a wheelhouse but run it direct to the tab. I just lift it on or off the tab depending on if I am using the windvane. I have never had flutter from the tab. I think it can be a problem with high speed mulithulls when they go 15 knots or more but not a problem on monohulls. Having said that, it is important to have balanced tab without it being overbalanced if you want good sensitivity in light winds. The original Navico autopilots when they came out used a hall effect sensor for a magnetic sensor. They were not very good since they weren't very sensitive and gave early Navico autopilots a poor reputation but I don't think they have made them for probably 30 years. The software may be slightly different but I don't think the sensor in a Navico/Simrad is now any different than a Raymarine/Autohelm. If you take the autopilot apart, they look the same. Any flux sensor won't work very well if it is too close to the steel. Under power in calms, it might not matter much but with a boat rolling or pitching the magnetic field will shift as the mass of the boat moves in relation to the sensor. If you are mounting direct to the tab, it is a good idea to mount them as far from the transom and as close to the centerline as you can. Up on the rail to a linkage to the tab would be ideal and relatively easy if you already have a windvane. I actually took the flux sensor out of my Navico and mounted it on the rail in an old aluminum housing from an aircraft flux sensor. It was tricky so I wouldn't recommend it unless you have an electronics background and understand what you are doing. You can see it in the video here. It is the half dome looking thingy with the black wire running to it up on the rail. I am sailing under windvane and the autopilot is just laying there, waiting to be put to the tab if I need it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK_JT2HGb3s Brent's system of mounting the autopilot inside through a drive cable is simple and has the added advantage of keeping the autopilot out of the weather. Whatever system you use, whether it is direct to the tab or through a cable, make sure the linkage doesn't get smashed or bent if you go hard over with the rudder. It will happen. Paul | 36155|36147|2019-09-14 17:58:36|brentswain38|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :A rounded trailing edge naturally flutters, a V shape or square doesn't. I managed to make a rudder for a daysailer the went into flutter at around 6 knots in the middle of the lake. It sounded like a reciprocating saw run by a lawnmower engine. The part itself was 3/4" plywood, about 3 feet x 16" in extent, so quite stiff vs out of plane flexing or twisting. There was a tiny slop in the commercial pintles and gudgeons and a tiny slop in the rotating rudder vane inside the head box. Slop makes vibration easier, but it is not essential. Elasticity in the element can do it, or elasticity in linkages. The problem is, flutter does not necessarily come on gently. When it starts at a speed it can amplify quickly and latch-in. One must slow the boat substantially below the initial onset speed to get it out of flutter. If it is a flutter that will cause damage, it is too late. I would definitely want to try a morse cable on a balanced trimtab on a hydrovane, but I would want the most breakable spot to be a shear bolt or something, not something essential, like the hull. Matt| 36156|36147|2019-09-15 08:47:07|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Thank you gentlemen, all good info Navico or not.Built a Swainvane & linkage running up stb'd side to the nav station which is just aft of midships & plan to mount tillerpilot to the linkage at the nav station below.Once figured will have 6 different ways/stations to con from.Still tinkering with linkage to the tab & thus far have pretty much full over to stb'd the trim tab tiller, about 60 degrees of helm, but only about 30 degrees of helm with the tiller to port.Yes I plan to extend the linkage to accommodate further movement of the TT tiller to port and adjust the linkage & even up the helm at 45deg per side.I can clearly see that linkage could go past the point of no return & lock to one side if left as is. But if centred doesn't cover it then wee lines or bungies to restrict the linkage so it can not lock to one side.This one much appreciated as your comment "and it will" could save heaps of suprize & drama. Must have been interesting..Also, trailing edge of the tab sharp or squared but not rounded or it can go into wobble. Exellent.While we're here, is there anything else re trimtab, windvane, linkage & tiller pilot assembly that I should be aware of?Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36157|36147|2019-09-15 18:00:45|opuspaul|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Sounds good. Everyone should have Brent's book if they don't already have it. For many reasons.Also, I posted it before but I think John Letcher's book is a must read when it comes to rudders, trim tabs and windvanes. I learned a lot from it. The hard copy is good to have but you can get the pdf free.https://jesterchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/self-steering-for-sailing-craft-by-john-s-letcher-jr-small.pdfI haven't read it but this might be good too....https://www.bluemoment.com/downloads/selfsteering.pdf| 36158|36147|2019-09-15 18:16:09|opuspaul|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Shape is very important but I had a 15 foot multihull that had centerboards that would let out a high pitched hum when I hit 12+ knots. The angle of attack didn't seem to matter. I don't think it was flutter of the boards themselves but vortexes/turbulence across the surface of the boards as laminar flow water detached from the surface of the foil. If you look at high speed racing boats, they take great care in making their boards as smooth as possible with no imperfections. They want to keep the flow laminar as long as possible. See page 8.http://www.ikarus342000.com/Boardsandrudders.pdf.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I managed to make a rudder for a daysailer the went into flutter at around 6 knots in the middle of the lake. It sounded like a reciprocating saw run by a lawnmower engine. The part itself was 3/4" plywood, about 3 feet x 16" in extent, so quite stiff vs out of plane flexing or twisting. There was a tiny slop in the commercial pintles and gudgeons and a tiny slop in the rotating rudder vane inside the head box. Slop makes vibration easier, but it is not essential. Elasticity in the element can do it, or elasticity in linkages. The problem is, flutter does not necessarily come on gently. When it starts at a speed it can amplify quickly and latch-in. One must slow the boat substantially below the initial onset speed to get it out of flutter. If it is a flutter that will cause damage, it is too late. I would definitely want to try a morse cable on a balanced trimtab on a hydrovane, but I would want the most breakable spot to be a shear bolt or something, not something essential, like the hull. Matt| 36159|36147|2019-09-16 11:56:18|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Brent's book makes it pretty much paint by numbers & could not be more clear in regard to function, longevity, cost. Basics without the (well, at least not too much) bullshit. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36160|36147|2019-09-23 13:04:11|prairiemaidca|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|I solved the issue of the self steering parts hitting the auto pilot cable by making a small link out of stainless flat bar with two pins. When I wish to use the auto pilot I hook up the pilot to the lever in the pilot house while on stand by then drop the link which is tied by a tether to prevent me dropping it over board into the hole on the end of the cable and the corresponding hole on the trim tab linkage. With the wind vane sail latch locked out so it is not engaging the trim tab, all you do is hit auto on the pilot, sit back in the helm chair and enjoy your coffee as the cold miserable weather passes. So far this simple inexpensive system has worked for us quite well. In Sept. we put on over 300 NM and most of it we were forced to motor and in some very rough and wet conditions. No issues what so ever from pilot or any of it's links. The only thing that does happen occasionally is that when maneuvering in close quarters (docking) back and forth with the rudder being pushed over hard the self steering will want to go to far to one side and jam and you need to release it before continuing your maneuvers. Martin.. (Prairie Maid)| 36161|36147|2019-09-24 16:31:52|brentswain38|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|I just lift the inside steering linkage out of the trim tab tiller, and engage the windvane. I have a little gizmo on the top of my tiller, which lets me lock it, at any angle, with a big wing nut.It lets me lock the trimtab ,or take any helm out when sailing.I could build you one, next time we connect. It's quite simple.[Quote]I solved the issue of the self steering parts hitting the auto pilot cable by making a small link out of stainless flat bar with two pins. When I wish to use the auto pilot I hook up the pilot to the lever in the pilot house while on stand by then drop the link which is tied by a tether to prevent me dropping it over board into the hole on the end of the cable and the corresponding hole on the trim tab linkage. With the wind vane sail latch locked out so it is not engaging the trim tab, all you do is hit auto on the pilot, sit back in the helm chair and enjoy your coffee as the cold miserable weather passes. So far this simple inexpensive system has worked for us quite well. In Sept. we put on over 300 NM and most of it we were forced to motor and in some very rough and wet conditions. No issues what so ever from pilot or any of it's links. The only thing that does happen occasionally is that when maneuvering in close quarters (docking) back and forth with the rudder being pushed over hard the self steering will want to go to far to one side and jam and you need to release it before continuing your maneuvers. Martin.. (Prairie Maid)| 36162|36162|2019-09-26 17:07:08|brentswain38|The Age of lies|I have been trying to pass on steel boat info on the British site . ybw.com. After my time ran out at the library yesterday, they posted a huge pile of libelous lies about me , then closed the thread, before I could get in to correct them. The moderator claimed I have never drawn up a set of lines for my boats , and just made up the plate shapes. The hull lines is how I got the plate shapes back in 1980. Could someone here respond , who has bought set of plans years ago, confirm that they came with a set of hull lines. I believe that site is owned by the magazine"Yachting and Boating world" Could use a bit of backup. Thanks | 36163|36162|2019-09-26 17:12:31|Matt Malone|Re: The Age of lies| #ygrps-yiv-704028211 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Can you help us by indicating which section of the forum, which thread ? Perhaps a link? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 5:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] The Age of lies I have been trying to pass on steel boat info on the British site . ybw.com. After my time ran out at the library yesterday, they posted a huge pile of libelous lies about me , then closed the thread, before I could get in to correct them. The moderator claimed I have never drawn up a set of lines for my boats , and just made up the plate shapes. The hull lines is how I got the plate shapes back in 1980. Could someone here respond , who has bought set of plans years ago, confirm that they came with a set of hull lines. I believe that site is owned by the magazine"Yachting and Boating world" Could use a bit of backup. Thanks | 36164|36162|2019-09-27 16:16:08|brentswain38|Re: The Age of lies|Do a search on Steel boats on that forum. It is the first one the one with about 16 pages.Thanks---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-404201426 #ygrps-yiv-404201426ygrps-yiv-335801543 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Can you help us by indicating which section of the forum, which thread ? Perhaps a link? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 5:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] The Age of lies I have been trying to pass on steel boat info on the British site . ybw.com. After my time ran out at the library yesterday, they posted a huge pile of libelous lies about me , then closed the thread, before I could get in to correct them. The moderator claimed I have never drawn up a set of lines for my boats , and just made up the plate shapes. The hull lines is how I got the plate shapes back in 1980. Could someone here respond , who has bought set of plans years ago, confirm that they came with a set of hull lines. I believe that site is owned by the magazine"Yachting and Boating world" Could use a bit of backup. Thanks | 36165|36162|2019-09-29 19:32:47|ANDREW AIREY|Re: The Age of lies|Had a cursory look but couldn;t see anything.Will have a more targeted look laterCheersAndrew Airey| 36166|36162|2019-09-29 19:38:26|Brian Stannard|Re: The Age of lies|Here's the link here - near the end of the thread.http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?498670-Steelboats&highlight=steel+boatsÂ Â On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 4:32 PM ANDREW AIREY andyairey@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Had a cursory look but couldn;t see anything.Will have a more targeted look laterCheersAndrew Airey -- CheersBrian | 36167|36147|2019-10-01 15:50:36|aguysailing|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Hi PM.... could you send along your settings for the Raymarine 1000. I have the 2000 in a locker because I have given up. I have same set up with attachment to trim tab. The 2000 just is too hyper and no matter my setting tweaking it will not settle down. ThanksFor now I just tie my rudder into position but this requires frequent adjustment. I would like to get this RM 2000 to work.| 36168|36147|2019-10-02 09:24:07|prairiemaidca|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Not sure what you mean by settings. When I first hooked it up I followed the instructions where you make a few circles etc. so it can figure out what to do as far as how much helm to apply based on what it has to work with and the boats ability to turn. Then it went to work and has been doing it's job ever since. I am back home in Alberta at the moment so I don't have access to the manual which is on the boat. Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 36169|36147|2019-10-02 09:27:47|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|To lash the helm works but can be fiddly but it forces you to stand a proper watch or pay the price.I have not used it yet but put together & welded onto the tiller a trim tab tiller per the design (Dia Niel's trim tab tiller in Brents book). It should take most if not all of the helm out of your helm to steady things up till you get the tiller pilot figuredSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36170|36162|2019-10-02 17:32:09|ANDREW AIREY|Re: The Age of lies|Hi allStill not managed to access the thread but I've emailed Practical Boat Owner magazine to recommend this site.PBO is connected with YBW but they haven't done much with seagoing steel boats except Nick Skeat's Wylo2 Holland is the European country with a fradition of building steel boats of all sizes/Will let you know if I get any responsecheersAndy Airey| 36171|36147|2019-10-02 18:35:11|Dan|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|lurker here...TP5500 user manual .PDF On Wednesday, October 2, 2019, 9:12:54 AM CDT, SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: To lash the helm works but can be fiddly but it forces you to stand a proper watch or pay the price.I have not used it yet but put together & welded onto the tiller a trim tab tiller per the design (Dia Niel's trim tab tiller in Brents book). It should take most if not all of the helm out of your helm to steady things up till you get the tiller pilot figuredSent from Yahoo Mail on Android | 36172|36147|2019-10-02 18:39:38|brentswain38|Re: Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot|Found the part where it says hold the button down for 5 seconds, is bullshit, as Steve on Silas Crosby pointed out.You have to hold the button down for a very long time, much longer than 5 seconds.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Not sure what you mean by settings. When I first hooked it up I followed the instructions where you make a few circles etc. so it can figure out what to do as far as how much helm to apply based on what it has to work with and the boats ability to turn. Then it went to work and has been doing it's job ever since. I am back home in Alberta at the moment so I don't have access to the manual which is on the boat. Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 36173|34787|2019-10-13 18:24:41|brentswain38|Epoxy inside|I just heard of a couple more boats with no epoxy under the foam.A sad waste of otherwise good boats, for a few days work and not all that much money. Sad, so many steel boats are being scrapped that way, including those who's builders I have nagged to get an adequate epoxy build up inside ,which fell on deaf ears . Perhaps someone told them ,"Brent has it all wrong"usually someone with minimal steel boat maintaining experience, let alone 4 decades of it.I believed I had emphasized it enough in my book, etc.Sadly I guess not.Sometimes, there is no penetrating the ivory!| 36174|34787|2019-10-13 19:15:25|Matt Malone|Re: Epoxy inside| People motivated to save money or time may heed the advice that reinforces what they are inclined to do. Its not that they ignored your advice so much as they found someone else's was more convenient at a moment of weakness. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019, 18:24 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Epoxy inside I just heard of a couple more boats with no epoxy under the foam. A sad waste of otherwise good boats, for a few days work and not all that much money. Sad, so many steel boats are being scrapped that way, including those who's builders I have nagged to get an adequate epoxy build up inside ,which fell on deaf ears . Perhaps someone told them ,"Brent has it all wrong"usually someone with minimal steel boat maintaining experience, let alone 4 decades of it. I believed I had emphasized it enough in my book, etc. Sadly I guess not. Sometimes, there is no penetrating the ivory! | 36175|36162|2019-10-14 13:44:36|ANDREW AIREY|Re: The Age of lies|Have now had a reply from Practical Boat Owner.They have promised to publish my letter recommending the site in January or February next year. Will update on what happens.cheersAndy Airey| 36176|34787|2019-10-14 18:42:36|brentswain38|Re: Epoxy inside|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Commercial builders around here are notorius for not epoxying the inside. Bank payment due and a boat ready to deliver for the final cheque ." Foam her and get her out the door or the bank shuts us down tomorrow. " Sadly that creates the assumption that all steel bots rusting out from the inside is inevitable, and unavoidable, when avoiding that is so simple.With so many steel boats currently being scrapped fo that reason alone ,before their eyes ,they still foam over bare steel or primer alone, not making the connection between no paint inside ,and rusting out from the inside. People motivated to save money or time may heed the advice that reinforces what they are inclined to do. Its not that they ignored your advice so much as they found someone else's was more convenient at a moment of weakness. MattFrom: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019, 18:24 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Epoxy inside I just heard of a couple more boats with no epoxy under the foam.A sad waste of otherwise good boats, for a few days work and not all that much money. Sad, so many steel boats are being scrapped that way, including those who's builders I have nagged to get an adequate epoxy build up inside ,which fell on deaf ears . Perhaps someone told them ,"Brent has it all wrong"usually someone with minimal steel boat maintaining experience, let alone 4 decades of it.I believed I had emphasized it enough in my book, etc.Sadly I guess not.Sometimes, there is no penetrating the ivory! #ygrps-yiv-858360642 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-858360642 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-858360642 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-858360642 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693 #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-858360642ygrps-yiv-1101249693ads {margin-bottom:10px;} 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YBW forums is strongly against passing on steel boat info from anyone with long term steel boat experience, plastic boaters only allowedI would definitely not recommend that site for anyone seeking experience based steel boat info.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Have now had a reply from Practical Boat Owner.They have promised to publish my letter recommending the site in January or February next year. Will update on what happens.cheersAndy Airey| 36178|36162|2019-10-14 19:28:50|Matt Malone|Re: The Age of lies| I honestly did not read all 1,503 messages on that threat. I did notice Brent starting to post at about post 300, but it could have been earlier. That is not exactly censorship. Yes I read a wad of messages at the end that did not seem fair, but I also saw a lot of strong, accusatory language from Brent, and the thread was left open for hundreds more messages. Brent, if you did not make your point convincingly in hundreds of messages, I doubt a few more would help. If anyone sees the value of Brent's posts they can easily find him here. All those messages are still there, being indexed by google, again free advertisement for origamiboats. I am not saying YBW were completely fair, but one cannot say they were not indulgent. Matt From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019, 18:47 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The Age of lies Which site is that. YBW forums is strongly against passing on steel boat info from anyone with long term steel boat experience, plastic boaters only allowed I would definitely not recommend that site for anyone seeking experience based steel boat info. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Have now had a reply from Practical Boat Owner.They have promised to publish my letter recommending the site in January or February next year. Will update on what happens. cheers Andy Airey | 36179|36162|2019-10-15 08:58:21|ANDREW AIREY|Re: The Age of lies|Hi BrentIt's not a website it's a monthly magazine.Quite popular,it's been going for several decades.Still does the occasional article on self builds and rebuilds although not as much as it did in it's early days which coincided with a boom in home builds.If anyone is in a position to contribute an article - with pictures - I think it would stand a good chance of being published but I can contact them and confirm this if anyone is potentially interested.As I understand it the technique is mainly used for boats in the 25 to 40 ft range which should be of general interestcheersAndrew Airey| 36180|36162|2019-10-15 16:41:05|brentswain38|Re: The Age of lies|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I once offered to write for them ,at their booth a in a boat show, and they said they have no interest in publishing anything about steel boats , only fibreglass or wood boat articles, as no one is interested in steel boats. .Hi BrentIt's not a website it's a monthly magazine.Quite popular,it's been going for several decades.Still does the occasional article on self builds and rebuilds although not as much as it did in it's early days which coincided with a boom in home builds.If anyone is in a position to contribute an article - with pictures - I think it would stand a good chance of being published but I can contact them and confirm this if anyone is potentially interested.As I understand it the technique is mainly used for boats in the 25 to 40 ft range which should be of general interestcheersAndrew Airey| 36181|36162|2019-10-15 17:02:25|brentswain38|Re: The Age of lies|The lies posted on quoting Mcnaughton and the moderator are extremely libelous, especially McNaughtons comments about plate shapes being determined by trial and error. It clearly states in the beginning of the chapter on hulls, that plate shapes are determined by taking them off the lines drawings or a model ,in the book I sent him. Equally libelous was the statement by the moderator, John Morris, that Evan Shaler designed all my boats. I built my first origami boat in 1980, over 3 years before I ever met or heard of Evan, and taught him how to build my boats in 83.He had spent 9 months building a plastic Bristol channel cutter, which project he abandoned ,once I showed him origami steel. His one attempt at designing was a disaster. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I honestly did not read all 1,503 messages on that threat. I did notice Brent starting to post at about post 300, but it could have been earlier. That is not exactly censorship. Yes I read a wad of messages at the end that did not seem fair, but I also saw a lot of strong, accusatory language from Brent, and the thread was left open for hundreds more messages. Brent, if you did not make your point convincingly in hundreds of messages, I doubt a few more would help. If anyone sees the value of Brent's posts they can easily find him here. All those messages are still there, being indexed by google, again free advertisement for origamiboats. I am not saying YBW were completely fair, but one cannot say they were not indulgent. MattFrom: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019, 18:47 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The Age of lies Which site is that. YBW forums is strongly against passing on steel boat info from anyone with long term steel boat experience, plastic boaters only allowedI would definitely not recommend that site for anyone seeking experience based steel boat info.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Have now had a reply from Practical Boat Owner.They have promised to publish my letter recommending the site in January or February next year. Will update on what happens.cheersAndy Airey#ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ads {margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ad {padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 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#ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1065494915 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251 #ygrps-yiv-1065494915ygrps-yiv-71153251ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none!important;}| 36182|36162|2019-10-15 19:48:29|brentswain38|Re: The Age of lies|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I would much appreciate if some of you could take and post these fact corrections on that site.They felt free to post such lies after they blocked my own ability to correct them. Thanks.The lies posted on quoting Mcnaughton and the moderator are extremely libelous, especially McNaughtons comments about plate shapes being determined by trial and error. It clearly states in the beginning of the chapter on hulls, that plate shapes are determined by taking them off the lines drawings or a model ,in the book I sent him. Equally libelous was the statement by the moderator, John Morris, that Evan Shaler designed all my boats. I built my first origami boat in 1980, over 3 years before I ever met or heard of Evan, and taught him how to build my boats in 83.He had spent 9 months building a plastic Bristol channel cutter, which project he abandoned ,once I showed him origami steel. His one attempt at designing was a disaster. | 36183|36162|2019-10-16 15:52:56|ANDREW AIREY|Re: The Age of lies|Hi BrentThey do do do the occasional bit about steel boats including the Wylo2 which is a self build design in the same sort of size range as Brent's boats.I . think that Origami boats would be easier to build. The reality is that after 60 years of plastic there are plenty of boats available in all size and price ranges and this must influence the choice that anyone might make when they want to get a boat and the magazines that cater for them.However he editor has probably changed since you unfortunate experience so I can write to them again to see if we get a better response The potential problem over here is the EU regulations,which I suspect we will be stuck with even when we leave the EU.Basically you would be able to build and use an Origami boat yourself,provided you didn't sell it for 5 years but,if you had one built commercially you would fall foul of all sorts of tests and calculations to prove to the satisfaction of the bureocrats that the vessel would be suitable for blue water sailing.There is a lot of steel boatbuilding experience in the UK but it is mostly in Canal boats,which are relatively uncomplicated and much less heavily regulated.
cheers
Andy Airey| 36184|36162|2019-10-16 18:11:16|brentswain38|Re: The Age of lies|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ahh yes, the brainlessness of bureaucratsI can just imagine them declaring that my wood stove needs at least 3 feet of clearance around it ,in a31 footer.Yet they would, no doubt approve an oil stove, which can overflow and fill your cabin with burning oil, if a tiny fragile component screws up. A lot of fish boats have been burned up around here from that cause.As I have pointed out many times, had the SV Gringo been plastic, when she was T boned by a freighter ,she would have sunk Search Yacht GringoHad the Sleavin family been in a steelboat like Gringo ,they would have all survived,with no more hull damage than the Gringo.Instead all but one died, due to plastic boat promotion?Calahan wouldn't have drifted in a rubber ducky for weeks had his hull been steel. Ditto the Baileys. When I point this out on other sites, some half wit, internet stalking troll, always lays a big sanctimonius guilt trip on me for , saying shame on me, for daring to suggest that we try learn the lessons of tragedy , to help prevent others from making the same tragic mistakes.When an airliner crashes, the Transportation Safety Board goes to great lengths to determine the cause ,to prevent a recurrence ,and future loss of life."Shame on them "for not simply ignoring the lessons , out of respect for the dead? Screw respect for the living, to those who will die, if we ignore the lessons"? That is the attitude expressed on YBW.com, which they blocked me from challenging, before I could post the above. Any of you want to post it?Please do!16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in up to 12 foot surf, being pulled off thru that surf ,being dropped onto hard sand every wave for 1/4 mile, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian Coral reef , then being dragged back across it by a tug,colliding with a freighter in Gibralter ,blowing ashore in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel , a single season passage thru the NW passage ,over 350 000 mile of ocean cruising,over 40 years, with no significant structural damage is far more reliable proof of good , sound engineering, strength and reliability than any bureaucrat's calculations.Yet they continue to advise against boats with such a well proven track record, in favour of boats which would have broken up in minutes, in the same situations. That kind of thinking ,and promotion of that kind of thinking is how they keep killing people, and families like the Sleavins, and, we will never know how many more.People who want steel boats are aware of the above ,usually after a lot of experience, and awareness of how much they have depended on pure luck.They want nothing to do with plastic boats, no matter how cheap they get.Most new steel boats are horrendously expensive, due to grossly outdated building methods, built at shop rates .For many, the only way they can get their hands on a good steel boat, with all new materials, is to build their own.As Paul pointed out ,origami cuts about a year off such a projectI met a guy at a Bluewater Cruising Assn gathering a couple of years ago, who cruised extensively in a steel boat, before switching to plastic.He said "Now I feel like I'm sailing around in an eggshell."Hi BrentThey do do do the occasional bit about steel boats including the Wylo2 which is a self build design in the same sort of size range as Brent's boats.I . think that Origami boats would be easier to build. The reality is that after 60 years of plastic there are plenty of boats available in all size and price ranges and this must influence the choice that anyone might make when they want to get a boat and the magazines that cater for them.However he editor has probably changed since you unfortunate experience so I can write to them again to see if we get a better response The potential problem over here is the EU regulations,which I suspect we will be stuck with even when we leave the EU.Basically you would be able to build and use an Origami boat yourself,provided you didn't sell it for 5 years but,if you had one built commercially you would fall foul of all sorts of tests and calculations to prove to the satisfaction of the bureocrats that the vessel would be suitable for blue water sailing.There is a lot of steel boatbuilding experience in the UK but it is mostly in Canal boats,which are relatively uncomplicated and much less heavily regulated.
cheers
Andy Airey| 36185|36162|2019-10-16 18:45:19|brentswain38|Re: The Age of lies|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :This is the kind of post which gets me banned, as it points out the insanity of bureaucratic yottie group think ,in a way which cant be refuted by logic,or promotion. You definitely would not be wise to stake your life or that of your crew, on their version of logic. They claim that only steel boats bump into things , a favorite claim of Bob Perry, who ridicules strength, or the need for strength in an ocean cruising yacht.Don't expect strength and reliability from anyone with that kind of logic. I don't believe he has any offshore cruising experience .He has given zero evidence of having any . So ask him. He will change the subject, and never answer.Funny they should make that claim,.when their obsession with life rafts and insurance,clearly proves how little confidence they have in it .Then, there was the claim by John Morris, the moderator on YBW.com, that a fire in a steel boat can burn without oxygen,so don't bother trying to seal it airtight ,when your fire extinguishers are all empty. That would be "Dangerous?" Much safer to leave her wide open . give her lots of air, and abandon ship to a rubber ducky ,even in mid Pacific , 1000 miles from any land,or shipping routes?Just watch her burn? And he claims to be an "Experienced' cruiser?No John, claiming to have circumnavigated, doesn't qualify as proof you did any serious cruising. Any kid in his mother's basement, can give as much proof of such, as you have.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Ahh yes, the brainlessness of bureaucratsI can just imagine them declaring that my wood stove needs at least 3 feet of clearance around it ,in a31 footer.Yet they would, no doubt approve an oil stove, which can overflow and fill your cabin with burning oil, if a tiny fragile component screws up. A lot of fish boats have been burned up around here from that cause.As I have pointed out many times, had the SV Gringo been plastic, when she was T boned by a freighter ,she would have sunk Search Yacht GringoHad the Sleavin family been in a steelboat like Gringo ,they would have all survived,with no more hull damage than the Gringo.Instead all but one died, due to plastic boat promotion?Calahan wouldn't have drifted in a rubber ducky for weeks had his hull been steel. Ditto the Baileys. When I point this out on other sites, some half wit, internet stalking troll, always lays a big sanctimonius guilt trip on me for , saying shame on me, for daring to suggest that we try learn the lessons of tragedy , to help prevent others from making the same tragic mistakes.When an airliner crashes, the Transportation Safety Board goes to great lengths to determine the cause ,to prevent a recurrence ,and future loss of life."Shame on them "for not simply ignoring the lessons , out of respect for the dead? Screw respect for the living, to those who will die, if we ignore the lessons"? That is the attitude expressed on YBW.com, which they blocked me from challenging, before I could post the above. Any of you want to post it?Please do!16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in up to 12 foot surf, being pulled off thru that surf ,being dropped onto hard sand every wave for 1/4 mile, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian Coral reef , then being dragged back across it by a tug,colliding with a freighter in Gibralter ,blowing ashore in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel , a single season passage thru the NW passage ,over 350 000 mile of ocean cruising,over 40 years, with no significant structural damage is far more reliable proof of good , sound engineering, strength and reliability than any bureaucrat's calculations.Yet they continue to advise against boats with such a well proven track record, in favour of boats which would have broken up in minutes, in the same situations. That kind of thinking ,and promotion of that kind of thinking is how they keep killing people, and families like the Sleavins, and, we will never know how many more.People who want steel boats are aware of the above ,usually after a lot of experience, and awareness of how much they have depended on pure luck.They want nothing to do with plastic boats, no matter how cheap they get.Most new steel boats are horrendously expensive, due to grossly outdated building methods, built at shop rates .For many, the only way they can get their hands on a good steel boat, with all new materials, is to build their own.As Paul pointed out ,origami cuts about a year off such a projectI met a guy at a Bluewater Cruising Assn gathering a couple of years ago, who cruised extensively in a steel boat, before switching to plastic.He said "Now I feel like I'm sailing around in an eggshell."Hi BrentThey do do do the occasional bit about steel boats including the Wylo2 which is a self build design in the same sort of size range as Brent's boats.I . think that Origami boats would be easier to build. The reality is that after 60 years of plastic there are plenty of boats available in all size and price ranges and this must influence the choice that anyone might make when they want to get a boat and the magazines that cater for them.However he editor has probably changed since you unfortunate experience so I can write to them again to see if we get a better response The potential problem over here is the EU regulations,which I suspect we will be stuck with even when we leave the EU.Basically you would be able to build and use an Origami boat yourself,provided you didn't sell it for 5 years but,if you had one built commercially you would fall foul of all sorts of tests and calculations to prove to the satisfaction of the bureocrats that the vessel would be suitable for blue water sailing.There is a lot of steel boatbuilding experience in the UK but it is mostly in Canal boats,which are relatively uncomplicated and much less heavily regulated.
cheers
Andy Airey| 36186|36186|2019-10-17 20:20:40|Matt Hixson|Dove III is for sale|I'm in the process of figuring out how to sell Dove III and learning what a suitable asking price is. If you have any useful feedback whatsoever I'd love to hear it. I want Dove to find a good home with someone who will use her for ocean adventure and exploration. https://www.matthixson.com/dove-iii-is-for-sale Thanks, -Matt -- http://www.matthixson.com 360-610-7053| 36187|36186|2019-10-18 09:05:57|Matt Malone|Origami Boats group will be lost?| They say they sent a notice to users, but, I do not check my yahoo email account. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups/ I might be able to write some software to siphon off the entire group and save it to offline backup, however, getting it back up somewhere else all linked together so it is navigatable is another question. It would be a shame if the collected contributions of everyone over the years were lost. Brent as group owner (?) can you tell us how much disk space the entire group takes up? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Hixson mhixson@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 5:35:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Dove III is for sale I'm in the process of figuring out how to sell Dove III and learning what a suitable asking price is. If you have any useful feedback whatsoever I'd love to hear it. I want Dove to find a good home with someone who will use her for ocean adventure and exploration. https://www.matthixson.com/dove-iii-is-for-sale Thanks, -Matt -- http://www.matthixson.com 360-610-7053 | 36188|36186|2019-10-18 10:13:45|mountain man|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?| Maybe move to facebook? (Unfortunately) De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 18 octobre 2019 09:05:53 Ã€ : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Objet : [origamiboats] Origami Boats group will be lost? They say they sent a notice to users, but, I do not check my yahoo email account. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups/ I might be able to write some software to siphon off the entire group and save it to offline backup, however, getting it back up somewhere else all linked together so it is navigatable is another question. It would be a shame if the collected contributions of everyone over the years were lost. Brent as group owner (?) can you tell us how much disk space the entire group takes up? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Matt Hixson mhixson@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 5:35:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Dove III is for sale I'm in the process of figuring out how to sell Dove III and learning what a suitable asking price is. If you have any useful feedback whatsoever I'd love to hear it. I want Dove to find a good home with someone who will use her for ocean adventure and exploration. https://www.matthixson.com/dove-iii-is-for-sale Thanks, -Matt -- http://www.matthixson.com 360-610-7053 | 36189|36186|2019-10-18 17:23:16|ktx7ca|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|Some other groups I belong too have moved over too https://groups.io/ I'm told they have a super easy group transfer function to move from yahoo| 36190|36186|2019-10-18 17:29:09|Matt Malone|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?| #ygrps-yiv-147446894 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} And who are you clyc@... ? You have never posted to origamiboats before, and you are touting a particular option. There is no chance you are a spam bot? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of clyc@... [origamiboats] Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 4:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Origami Boats group will be lost? Some other groups I belong too have moved over too https://groups.io/ I'm told they have a super easy group transfer function to move from yahoo | 36191|36186|2019-10-18 17:40:18|brentswain38|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|I have been told it has been moved there, so I signed up, but still cant find origamiboats in a search there. It tells me I hvae no subscriptions there,but I can figure out how to subscribe to anything there. No button for that. Anyone have any ideas on that?---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Some other groups I belong too have moved over too https://groups.io/ I'm told they have a super easy group transfer function to move from yahoo| 36192|36192|2019-10-18 23:40:33|aguysailing|vhb 3m tape|"The alternative to mechanical fasteners is a super-strong, double-sided acrylic foam tape, which will both hold the pane in place and create a gap for the silicone sealant. The width of this gap is critical, as you want the pane to expand and contract without stressing the seal. The tape to use is 3M VHB 4991, which is 2.3 millimeters thick. Select 1/2in width."I am rebedding a window after I noticed wood rot in 1/4 of the wood frame holding the window on the inside of the hull. I was going to cut out the section, replace with new wood and then calk again secured by screws. My plexi glass windows are on the outside of the hull flush as opposed to recessed. After watching some youtube vids I am thinking of vhb tape. No caulking, no screws, no wood frame on the inside of the hull. Just wondering if anyone has experience with vhb tape? My windows are quite thick unlike the whippy, elongated windows I saw on youtube for fiberglass boats. Thanks ...Gary| 36193|36186|2019-10-19 02:08:26|ktx7ca|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|Hello MattLast time checked I was not a spam bot and I'm certainly not touting any thing. Just offering a possible solution to check into that Brent may not have been aware of. Especially as Yahoo will stop allowed new posts on Oct 28I agree with others that this is a great repository of hard to find knowledge You are correct I have not posted here before but have been a member for a long time. Since I haven't built a steel boat, origami or otherwise. I tend not to offer advice on things I dont have experience on. The group is full of actual people and experts who have so I listen (read) and learn from them. I may build one of Brent's dinghies later this winter.If I can be of some help in this endeavor please let me knowChris| 36194|36186|2019-10-19 02:19:23|ktx7ca|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|HI Brent I cant find origamiboats either as a GroupTo subscribe to a group click on the group from the list and when that group opens up there is a blue button on left down from the group description that says Apply For Membership In This GroupWhat info do you have that says it was moved as you need to sign and create the group first before it could be moved | 36195|36186|2019-10-19 16:50:06|aguysailing|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|Welcome.... this Yahoo thing needs a fix| 36196|36192|2019-10-19 16:53:16|brentswain38|Re: vhb 3m tape|Too bad we cant find that recyled plastic 2X4s any more .It was far better than wood inside"The alternative to mechanical fasteners is a super-strong, double-sided acrylic foam tape, which will both hold the pane in place and create a gap for the silicone sealant. The width of this gap is critical, as you want the pane to expand and contract without stressing the seal. The tape to use is 3M VHB 4991, which is 2.3 millimeters thick. Select 1/2in width."I am rebedding a window after I noticed wood rot in 1/4 of the wood frame holding the window on the inside of the hull. I was going to cut out the section, replace with new wood and then calk again secured by screws. My plexi glass windows are on the outside of the hull flush as opposed to recessed. After watching some youtube vids I am thinking of vhb tape. No caulking, no screws, no wood frame on the inside of the hull. Just wondering if anyone has experience with vhb tape? My windows are quite thick unlike the whippy, elongated windows I saw on youtube for fiberglass boats. Thanks ...Gary| 36197|36197|2019-10-19 16:55:48|brentswain38|Winston|Winston Bushnell doesn't do emails , as far as I know. his phone number is in directory assistance ,Nanaimo BC| 36198|36186|2019-10-19 16:57:41|brentswain38|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|GarryTry moving it yourself, to groups.ioGood luck Thanks---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Welcome.... this Yahoo thing needs a fix| 36199|36199|2019-10-19 18:20:43|Matt Hixson|contact info for Winston Bushnell?|Hi, I would like to find an email address for Winston Bushnell. Does anyone have that and mind sharing it with me? I'm trying to sell a boat he built and I'm being asked questions about it. I'd like to ask some of those questions of him if he wouldn't mind. I do have an old mailing address for him on Vancouver Island in my paperwork, but thought I'd give the internet a try first. If you'd prefer to send him my contact info and let him reach out to me on his own that would be great too. mhixson@... Thanks for any help. -Matt| 36200|36186|2019-10-19 19:41:35|brentswain38|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|Rick helped me move it.to origamiboats@... We will find out tomorrow if it worked---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :GarryTry moving it yourself, to groups.ioGood luck Thanks---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Welcome.... this Yahoo thing needs a fix| 36201|36186|2019-10-19 20:17:00|Matt Malone|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?| I joined groups.io and it says there is no origamiboats messages (yet). Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2019 7:41:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Origami Boats group will be lost? Rick helped me move it.to origamiboats@... We will find out tomorrow if it worked ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Garry Try moving it yourself, to groups.io Good luck Thanks ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Welcome.... this Yahoo thing needs a fix | 36202|36192|2019-10-20 01:50:41|aguysailing|Re: vhb 3m tape|Begs the question for those building new or anyonee re-bedding existing windows...why not use vhb 3 m tape and do away with inside wood frames all together, drilling and screws ... just slap the windows down on this 2 sided powerful tape fastener?| 36203|36192|2019-10-20 09:52:05|prairiemaidca|Re: vhb 3m tape|You will still want to have the 1 1/2 in. min. space for insulation on the inside and attachment points for the interior wood to come right up to the edge of the port so no bare metal is exposed on the inside. I had thoughts of through bolting my ports instead of large screws that only went into the clear fir but I realized that any cold would transfer from exterior to interior and cause multiple points of condensation around each port. All I used for lexan sealant was the recommended GE silicon and I've not had a leak and the boat has been exposed to more than minus 30c and plus 35c. The silicon is definitely not a bond but a gasket. Martin (Prairie Maid) | 36204|36192|2019-10-20 14:47:30|aguysailing|Re: vhb 3m tape|Thanks PM.... What I am saying is that (with vhb tape) there is no reason for anything except the spray foam to continue right up to the inside edge of the window (if you use the 3m vhb tape which obviously is fitted around the outside edge of the window) ready to receive the plexi glass window. That is it. Nothing else needed i.e., wood frames, screws). I have had my windows in for 14 yrs (frames, screws) and no probs except lately with the rotted wood and some discoloration of the sealant in some others. When it is time to re-bed a window for whatever reason, I am thinking that the 3m vhb tape is an option for the reasons as above. | 36205|36186|2019-10-20 16:46:44|ktx7ca|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|The group exists now but the transfer of messages and files has yet to begin | 36206|36192|2019-10-20 17:09:44|Rick Jackson|Re: vhb 3m tape|Hi MartinI would be interested in more details of how you installed your windowsâ€¦ Mine window install is a ways off yet but I think about how to do it oftenâ€¦.Rick On Oct 20, 2019, at 6:51 AM, losforsters@gmail..com [origamiboats] wrote:You will still want to have the 1 1/2 in. min. space for insulation on the inside and attachment points for the interior wood to come right up to the edge of the port so no bare metal is exposed on the inside. I had thoughts of through bolting my ports instead of large screws that only went into the clear fir but I realized that any cold would transfer from exterior to interior and cause multiple points of condensation around each port. All I used for lexan sealant was the recommended GE silicon and I've not had a leak and the boat has been exposed to more than minus 30c and plus 35c. The silicon is definitely not a bond but a gasket. Martin (Prairie Maid) | 36207|36192|2019-10-20 17:22:51|brentswain38|Re: vhb 3m tape|Most such sealants break down over time in UV. None is eternal.That is why I like some kind of mechanical fasteners. Painting the plexi black over the sealant part may help reduce UV damage. Black sikaflex primer works well, and sticks well. .---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Begs the question for those building new or anyonee re-bedding existing windows...why not use vhb 3 m tape and do away with inside wood frames all together, drilling and screws ... just slap the windows down on this 2 sided powerful tape fastener?| 36208|36192|2019-10-20 22:55:26|aguysailing|Re: vhb 3m tape| 3M 4991 VHB Acrylic Foam Tape 90 MIL 21st Century tape. Replaces rivets, bolts, screws, welding and liquid adhesives.Incredible VHB strength guarantees a strong bond.Thick conformable foam molds to irregular surfaces.Mount vinyl wiring ducts and conduits. Attach pre-painted metal parts in truck assembly.Temperature range is -40Â°C to 93Â°C (-40Â°F to 200Â°F).Dampens noise, shock and vibration.Resists moisture, UV, solvents and plasticizers â€“ won't loosen or degrade adhesives. Indoor/outdoor.Gray acrylic foam with acrylic adhesive and red polyester film liner. 3M 4991 VHB ACRYLIC FOAM TAPE UL Listing 746C MODELNO. SIZE TENSILESTRENGTH MIL ROLLS/CASE PRICE PER ROLL ADD TOCART 1 3 6+ S-16180 1/2" x 36 yds. 70 lbs. 90 18 $144 $139 $135 ADD S-16181 1" x 36 yds. 9 237 229 221 ADD | 36209|36192|2019-10-21 00:43:14|prairiemaidca|Re: vhb 3m tape|On Prairie Maid I used 1/4 in. lexan and each port has a 1 1/2 to 2 inch past the openings in all directions. To fasten I drilled the holes in the steel prior to prime and paint then with the 1 1/2 inch clear fir painted with multiple coats of paint attached inside each window opening I used very large SS wood screws that almost went all the way through with each one having a SS fender washer. You should be able to see them in the pictures section. Before placing the lexan I applied a generous amount of the silicone and then pressed the lexan against the steel and sucked it down with the screws. Once cured I trimmed off any excess silicone that was pressed out from under the lexan. It doesn't give the finished look of well made recessed ports in metal frames but it's fairly quick and seems to be very strong and doesn't leak. I have just recently replaced the three front pilot house windows with new ones using the same method. The old lexan was getting quite a bit of scratching on it making visibility difficult when the sun was at certain angles. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 36210|36192|2019-10-21 11:09:03|Darren Bos|Re: vhb 3m tape| I did some looking around at silicone when we had to re-bed our ports.Â Dowsil 795 seemed like the preferred material amongst folks who re-bed plexi/lexan hatches.Â One of the things it used for is holding the massive (and dangerous) windows in high-rise builidings.Â It can often be found inexpensively at an industrial source that supplies the building-envelope sealant industry.Â I found it in Vancouver at Cascade Aqua-tech at around $10-$12 a cartridge.Â With any sealant you need to make sure you leave it thick enough so that it can stretch without failing as the temperatures change.Â The tech sheets for Dowsil 795 will give you all the info you need.Â Allowing for wastage, I used about 1/2 a tube for my large ports (25x16") and 1/3 of a tube for small ports (12x22").Â It was a post here on Origamiboats that first turned me on to 795, if you search for the thread "3m vhb tape or butyl tape" you can find more info there. Darren On 2019-10-20 6:51 a.m., losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â You will still want to have the 1 1/2 in. min. space for insulation on the inside and attachment points for the interior wood to come right up to the edge of the port so no bare metal is exposed on the inside.Â I had thoughts of through bolting my ports instead of large screws that only went into the clear fir but I realized that any cold would transfer from exterior to interior and cause multiple points of condensation around each port. All I used for lexan sealant was the recommended GE silicon and I've not had a leak and the boat has been exposed to more than minus 30c and plus 35c.Â The silicon is definitely not a bond but a gasket.Â Â MartinÂ (Prairie Maid)Â Â | 36211|36192|2019-10-21 13:36:32|prairiemaidca|Re: vhb 3m tape|The one thing to check carefully is the date on the various tubes of silicone calking materials. In one store I found a whole bin of silicone that was almost a full year out of date and the store clerk was surprised that I wasn't interested in making a purchase of their out dated product. Martin.. (Prairie Maid)| 36212|36192|2019-10-21 18:21:51|Darren Bos|Re: vhb 3m tape| Good point, I've had the same problem with the polyurethane adhesive caulking I use from the local hardware store.Â I've now learned which store does the higher volume of sales and thus has fresher product.Â Even if you get a fresh stock, both the Dowsil 795 and the Sika polyurethane I use are only good for about two years. On 2019-10-21 10:36 a.m., losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â The one thing to check carefully is the date on the various tubes of silicone calking materials.Â In one store I found a whole bin of silicone that was almost a full year out of date and the store clerk was surprised that I wasn't interested in making a purchase of their out dated product.Â Â Martin.. (Prairie Maid) | 36213|36213|2019-10-21 18:35:29|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| #ygrps-yiv-1931034201 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} No, I have not, and I was unaware that groups.io was a pay site. I would have thought the groups' owner/creator would have gotten an error message when they tried to transfer the group, if there was a problem with the account. Matt From: Darren Bos Sent: Monday, October 21, 2019 5:57 PM To: clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Subject: Origamiboats transfer Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys. Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io. I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that. Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren | 36214|36213|2019-10-21 18:38:47|Darren Bos|Origamiboats transfer|Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys.Â Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io.Â I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that.Â Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren| 36215|36192|2019-10-21 18:42:13|aguysailing|Re: vhb 3m tape|Good info Darren: I also used Dow 795. If you put a small 0 ring as a spacer in the screw holes you will prevent tightening the screws too far so that the sealant is too thin against the hull.My initial post was not so much about what we all have been using as that has been covered before. My question was about whether or not anyone here had good or bad experience with the 3m vhb tape. The advantage of this high powered adhesive tape is that if all it claims to be why ever would you want to go the time to put wood frames on the inside of the hull, drill screw holes through the acrylic etc, etc... risk wood rot on some or maybe all of the wood... anyway ... thanks to all for taking the time to comment.Gary| 36216|36186|2019-10-21 19:59:28|bruceeckersley|Re: Origami Boats group will be lost?|Several aviation groups I'm in have moved over to GroupsIO, fairly smoothly and quickly, with little loss of photos or data.I think they have a program/scheme going to assist groups transferring their files over.I've been a GroupsIO subscriber for about 18 months now, the system works quite well.Bruce,Perth, Western Australia.| 36217|36213|2019-10-21 20:05:32|mountain man|Re: Origamiboats transfer| Is it $110 for the group or for each of us? De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 21 octobre 2019 17:57:20 Ã€ : clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Objet : [origamiboats] Origamiboats transfer Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys. Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io. I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that. Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren | 36218|36192|2019-10-22 02:51:13|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: vhb 3m tape|If you used any form of silicon on your boat anywhere, no wonder you have to replace it.I was taught that silicon in any form has absolutely no place on a boat. Any boat. It's acidic and eats copper and if applied to bare steel, same but to a lesser extent.From various screwup in the trading/production industry in Asia I learned the hard way that 3m products work, consistently & well. I hate like hell to put in a plug for any product that comes out of that crime ridden shithole of a country, but fact is fact.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36219|36192|2019-10-22 10:52:18|prairiemaidca|Re: vhb 3m tape|Not sure what your issue is with silicone. There are two types the one I use is neutral cure so it doesn't have the acidic part and the strong odor of the acidic type. Since I've never had a leak and the ports have been exposed to a temp. range of over 60c cold to hot I. The main thing with the silicone is it should not ever be used as the connecting medium, only as a flexible gasket. Some form of very strong mechanical holding such as frames or screws etc. are required. I've heard of ports blowing outward when a boat was pushed deep below the surface and the internal pressure inside the well sealed and normally dry boat over came the adhesive that held the plastic in the frame. I guess it was super strong against outside forces pushing it harder against it's frame but it was only the sealant that held it in place. Not a good idea on a boat of any kind in my opinion. Martin.. (Prairie Maid)| 36220|36213|2019-10-22 11:34:45|Darren Bos|Re: Origamiboats transfer| Ooops, trying to do too many things at once and sent the message to Origamiboats instead of private.Â Oh well, given that we are short on time, maybe that is best, I was just trying to avoid the "too many cooks in the kitchen" scenario.Â I went and joined the Origamiboats group on groups.io and it has no posts and no content.Â So, I took a quick look around and it looks like you need the premium service for $110, to transfer from Yahoo.Â You can subscribe to premium for one year in order to transfer and then go back down to basic which is free.Â Basic only has 1GB of storage, I wonder if that would hold all the files/photos?Â Â I can't see who created the groups.io group, but they should have been prompted about the options when they created the group. I'm willing to contribute to the $110 to keep Origamiboats alive.Â I was trying to figure out who is driving this bus and how to help. On 2019-10-21 2:59 p.m., Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â No, I have not, and I was unaware that groups.io was a pay site.Â Â I would have thought the groups' owner/creator would have gotten an error message when they tried to transfer the group, if there was a problem with the account.Â Â Matt From: Darren Bos Sent: Monday, October 21, 2019 5:57 PM To: clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Subject: Origamiboats transfer Â Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys.Â Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io.Â I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that.Â Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren | 36221|36213|2019-10-22 11:36:57|Darren Bos|Re: Origamiboats transfer| It looks to me like it could be a one-time fee of $110 for all of us.Â On 2019-10-21 3:52 p.m., mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Is it $110 for the group or for each of us? De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 21 octobre 2019 17:57:20 Ã€ : clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Objet : [origamiboats] Origamiboats transfer Â Â Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys.Â Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io.Â I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that.Â Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren __._,_ | 36222|36213|2019-10-22 12:53:27|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| #ygrps-yiv-1237482632 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Yahoo is so frustrating. I just logged on to try to figure out the total size of the origami boats group, and it seems very difficult. There appears to be no direct path to content, it all has to go through the yahoo groups frames interface. I have no idea the size of the site, how many files, or how to get them out, other than clicking on them one at a time. Even then, you still get the Yahoo groups frame around the content. So I cannot tell you if 1G will do it, but, my inclination is, not a chance. Even 100G might not be enough for all the photos if any fraction of the photos are high-res. So that means, someone, the group owner probably has to kick in $110 / year to have the group. That is cheaper than a stand-alone server, but, not cheap. I am not sure groups.io is the answer. I cannot devote any more time to this this week, but someone should probably request the packaged download from Yahoo, then there will be options. The link for the download might work for anyone, so that the person who requests it (the owner) need not be the one to actually download the package when it is ready. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 11:34 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer Ooops, trying to do too many things at once and sent the message to Origamiboats instead of private. Oh well, given that we are short on time, maybe that is best, I was just trying to avoid the "too many cooks in the kitchen" scenario. I went and joined the Origamiboats group on groups.io and it has no posts and no content. So, I took a quick look around and it looks like you need the premium service for $110, to transfer from Yahoo. You can subscribe to premium for one year in order to transfer and then go back down to basic which is free. Basic only has 1GB of storage, I wonder if that would hold all the files/photos? I can't see who created the groups.io group, but they should have been prompted about the options when they created the group. I'm willing to contribute to the $110 to keep Origamiboats alive. I was trying to figure out who is driving this bus and how to help. On 2019-10-21 2:59 p.m., Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: No, I have not, and I was unaware that groups.io was a pay site. I would have thought the groups' owner/creator would have gotten an error message when they tried to transfer the group, if there was a problem with the account. Matt From: Darren Bos Sent: Monday, October 21, 2019 5:57 PM To: clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Subject: Origamiboats transfer Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys. Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io. I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that. Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren | 36223|36192|2019-10-22 13:04:00|Darren Bos|Re: vhb 3m tape| There is silicone and there is silicone.Â "No silicone on a boat anywhere" is just one of these boat lores that has just enough truth to keep it perpetuated indefinitely.Â The main problem with regular hardware-store silicone is that nothing sticks to it once cured.Â So, if you need to rebed a window, new silicone won't stick to old and it is pretty difficult to remove every last bit of residue to ensure a good bond.Â Dowsil 795 doesn't have this problem, it will stick to itself.Â It also has higher bond strength than regular silicone.Â There are also a few different ways to cure silicone, some release acetic acid others don't.Â 795 does not release acetic acid.Â You still want to be careful when not to contaminate adjacent surfaces when you use it, but otherwise it doesn't suffer from the shortfalls of regular silicone. On 2019-10-21 11:51 p.m., SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â If you used any form of silicon on your boat anywhere, no wonder you have to replace it. I was taught that silicon in any form has absolutely no place on a boat. Any boat. It's acidic and eats copper and if applied to bare steel, same but to a lesser extent. From various screwup in the trading/production industry in Asia I learned the hard way that 3m products work, consistently & well. I hate like hell to put in a plug for any product that comes out of that crime ridden shithole of a country, but fact is fact. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android | 36224|36192|2019-10-22 14:23:09|aguysailing|Re: vhb 3m tape|A very good point you have there PM.... thanks. Never thought of inward to outward pressure from that perspective.| 36225|36213|2019-10-22 19:04:36|ktx7ca|Re: Origamiboats transfer|OK we are currently Using 452.4 MB with 1425 photos uploaded on the yahoo siteThe 1Gb of storage provided by Goupsio is for files and picture storage. Message amount is unlimitedSo the Free site will handle our current usage without issue for quite some timeYahoo transfer is aviable with the free account, It moves all the Users, Messages, Files and pictures over.I'm happy to help out with the transfer but I will need temporary admin access on both sites.Chris| 36226|36192|2019-10-22 19:34:39|Matt Malone|Re: vhb 3m tape| #ygrps-yiv-1266859679 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Water flowing quickly over a curved surface can create a suction of over 14psi before cavitation happens. If you have ever seen cavitation anywhere, note the pressure at that point is only a few percent of atmospheric, or nearly a full atmosphere of vacuum. That is the opposite pressure differential of being submerged 30 feet underwater. Flat glass is not necessarily immune if the port is fitted into a curved area of the hull. Flow separation from sharp edges breaks the suction. The presence of air bubbles in the water require the air bubbles to expand tremendously as the pressure is lowering, changing the flow shape and limiting the suction that can be felt. That is one of the ways that "green water" over the hull is potentially more damaging than "white" water. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of losforsters@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 10:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: vhb 3m tape Not sure what your issue is with silicone. There are two types the one I use is neutral cure so it doesn't have the acidic part and the strong odor of the acidic type. Since I've never had a leak and the ports have been exposed to a temp. range of over 60c cold to hot I. The main thing with the silicone is it should not ever be used as the connecting medium, only as a flexible gasket. Some form of very strong mechanical holding such as frames or screws etc. are required. I've heard of ports blowing outward when a boat was pushed deep below the surface and the internal pressure inside the well sealed and normally dry boat over came the adhesive that held the plastic in the frame. I guess it was super strong against outside forces pushing it harder against it's frame but it was only the sealant that held it in place. Not a good idea on a boat of any kind in my opinion. Martin.. (Prairie Maid) | 36227|36213|2019-10-23 00:30:30|Dan|Re: Origamiboats transfer|It is 110 for the group... 22 guys @5 fricken bux will make it happen... I hope you know there is a bum rush over at groups.io, so don't drag your feet.There will be nothing left at yahoo but the text editor. No msg archive. No photos. No files. No links. No nothing. If you post here or from your email it will go out to the members, but there will be no evidence of it happening at Yazoo Groups. I doubt there will even be a cover photo.You have to create a group at .io and then upgrade it to yearly paid premier tier.Send an invitation to join the group to transfer@..., once they join promote them to moderator and Bob is your uncle. When I did my group 60% of the photos made the trip. I had to down load the other 40% and put them on .io myself.Better get someone's ass in gear if you don't want to loose the cumulative wisdomof 18 years.Just saying... On Monday, October 21, 2019, 7:05:40 PM CDT, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: Is it $110 for the group or for each of us? De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 21 octobre 2019 17:57:20 Ã€ : clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Objet : [origamiboats] Origamiboats transfer Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys. Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io. I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that. Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren | 36228|36213|2019-10-23 01:59:26|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboats transfer|Fwd: MODERATE -- dan42101@... posted to origamiboatsYahoo/InboxStephen Wandling To:Brent SwainCc:Brent SwainOct 22 at 8:58 AMSome info---------- Forwarded message ---------From: Yahoo Groups Notification

Date: Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:04 PMSubject: MODERATE -- dan42101@... posted to origamiboatsTo: Hello, A message has been sent to the origamiboats group from dan42101@... A complete copy of this message has been attached for your convenience. This message requires your approval for one of the following reasons: * Your group is set to moderate all messages from this user, OR * Your group is set to moderate messages from all users To approve or reject this message using the web, please visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/pending?view=1&msg=2192 To approve this message using email, reply to this message. You do not need to attach the original message, just reply and send. To reject this message using email, forward this message to origamiboats-reject-numiz0zjspojkxhvqjanega3dzva@yahoogroups.com NOTE: The pending message will expire after 14 days. If you do not take action within that time, the pending message will be automatically rejected. Yahoo Groups does this to maintain a high quality of service for our users. Thank you for choosing Yahoo Groups. Regards, Yahoo Groups Customer Care Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Dan To: "mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]" Cc: Bcc: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:15:49 +0000 (UTC)Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origamiboats transferIt is 110 for the group... 22 guys @5 fricken bux will make it happen... I hope you know there is a bum rush over at groups.io, so don't drag your feet.There will be nothing left at yahoo but the text editor. No msg archive. No photos. No files. No links. No nothing. If you post here or from your email it will go out to the members, but there will be no evidence of it happening at Yazoo Groups. I doubt there will even be a cover photo.You have to create a group at .io and then upgrade it to yearly paid premier tier.Send an invitation to join the group to transfer@..., once they join promote them to moderator and Bob is your uncle. When I did my group 60% of the photos made the trip. I had to down load the other 40% and put them on .io myself.Better get someone's ass in gear if you don't want to loose the cumulative wisdomof 18 years.Just saying...| 36229|36213|2019-10-23 05:55:33|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| #ygrps-yiv-394471203 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} It would seem one does not need the admin access if one could only make this work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269614 I have tried 3 different programs that claim to archive all of a yahoo group, but all throw errors for me on Linux. Is anyone else able to try this? Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of clyc@... [origamiboats] Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 4:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer OK we are currently Using 452.4 MB with 1425 photos uploaded on the yahoo site The 1Gb of storage provided by Goupsio is for files and picture storage. Message amount is unlimited So the Free site will handle our current usage without issue for quite some time Yahoo transfer is aviable with the free account, It moves all the Users, Messages, Files and pictures over. I'm happy to help out with the transfer but I will need temporary admin access on both sites. Chris | 36230|36213|2019-10-23 07:30:29|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Origamiboats transfer|If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part.It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work.Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomesSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36231|36213|2019-10-23 14:30:53|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| The urgent question is not throwing "a couple of quid" at this. The urgent question is making an offline backup of origamiboats. Right now it is on yahoo where apparently it is possible to make an offline backup. Do we know that is possible for groupsio? For sure? If not they have us hostage, forever. Would someone please figure out how to make one of the methods described here (or anywhere else) work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269614 Matt From: SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 07:30 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part. It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work. Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomes Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android | 36232|36192|2019-10-23 15:24:21|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: vhb 3m tape|If silicon in any form works for you, great. But I won't touch it & can only wish you the best of luck. With that stuff you gonna need it.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36233|36213|2019-10-23 23:10:01|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| Pressure marketing. The more I feel I am being pressed into something, the more I am suspicious of it. Thank you dan42101 for putting me on alert to the potential scammy aspect of groupsio. 60% of photos? That is a failure. Please concentrate on downloading a copy of all of origamiboats, messages, photostream and albums to your home computer. Then zip it and contact me (or anyone else from this group with a server) about making it available as an easy download for anyone who wants to backup a copy. Then we can piss around with groupsio without a gun to our head. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269614 That is just one link I found, and tried the methods and failed, when I searched how to download a yahoo group. In case it was a configuration problem on my computer, would everyone else please put their effort into this? We just need one complete success. Matt From: Dan dan42101@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 00:30 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origamiboats transfer It is 110 for the group... 22 guys @5 fricken bux will make it happen... I hope you know there is a bum rush over at groups.io, so don't drag your feet. There will be nothing left at yahoo but the text editor. No msg archive. No photos. No files. No links. No nothing. If you post here or from your email it will go out to the members, but there will be no evidence of it happening at Yazoo Groups. I doubt there will even be a cover photo. You have to create a group at .io and then upgrade it to yearly paid premier tier. Send an invitation to join the group to transfer@..., once they join promote them to moderator and Bob is your uncle. When I did my group 60% of the photos made the trip. I had to down load the other 40% and put them on .io myself. Better get someone's ass in gear if you don't want to loose the cumulative wisdom of 18 years. Just saying... On Monday, October 21, 2019, 7:05:40 PM CDT, mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats] wrote: Is it $110 for the group or for each of us? De : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com de la part de Darren Bos bosdg@... [origamiboats] EnvoyÃ© : 21 octobre 2019 17:57:20 Ã€ : clyc@... [origamiboats] ; Matt Malone Objet : [origamiboats] Origamiboats transfer Hi Chris and Matt, Rather than posting to Origamiboats and potentially creating more confusion, I thought I would try a private message to you guys. Has the transfer of files and photos been arranged to groups.io. I had a look and it looks like it requires a Premium account ($110/yr) to do that. Have one of you begun the process? Thanks for your work, Darren | 36234|36192|2019-10-24 00:14:02|aguysailing|Re: vhb 3m tape|Darren.... You get 2 years out of the Dow 795? Does it break down? I read that this stuff has been used on commercial buildings for years. I have several windows to re-bed on my BS 36 so I am going to try the 795 and the 3m. Interesting comment from Prairie Maid that taking on a submersion by a big wave could cause pressure inside and blow out a window that was not secured by screws to a wooden frame. That would make a guy think that 3m vhb tape would not be a wise choice. Gary| 36235|36213|2019-10-24 08:43:23|opuspaul|Re: Origamiboats transfer|I have been away and it seems that the shit has hit the fan. Yahoo sucks but I am not surprised they are doing this. I actually thought they would do it sooner.I signed up for the origamiboats group on groups.io. Only 8 people have signed up. They have a procedure and transfer looks possible but they have just raised their price to $220 instead of $110 and are requesting that the request come through by Dec 1st.This is from the groups.io page. Like everyone, we were taken by surprise when Yahoo announced they will be shutting down Yahoo Groups in just a few short weeks. Groups.io runs a world-class email groups service and has quickly been recognized as the best migration option for Yahoo Groups users. We are flattered by this recognition, and have been overwhelmed with traffic and group transfer requests as a result. We have spent the days since Yahoo's announcement diligently adding new server capacity and starting to work through an unprecedented number of transfer requests. Fortunately, Groups.io has always been built to scale and already has a user base in excess of 1 million users today. In order to accommodate this major growth phase while maintaining our excellent service levels and industry-leading functionality, we will need to adjust our pricing as follows. As of 9AM Pacific Time, October 22: The annual fee for premium groups is $20/month or $220/year. (Premium groups in existence before that date are grandfathered in at their current fee.)As is already the case, all transferred groups are required to be premium groups for the first year. The $220 transfer fee counts for the premium fee, so once having paid the transfer fee, transferred groups are exempt from paying the premium fee for the first year. As you know, Yahoo has given us incredibly short deadlines. New content cannot be uploaded to Yahoo Groups after October 28 and all user generated content will be deleted from Yahoo Groups on December 14. To ensure that we have enough time to export all data off of Yahoo, we have set a deadline of midnight, December 1 Pacific Time for all new transfer requests to be received. Assuming that Yahoo doesnâ€™t have any server issues, we believe that weâ€™ll be able to export all data out of Yahoo before they delete all the data. However, in order to maintain a high level of service to our existing customers, we cannot import groups into our service as fast as we can export them out of Yahoo. There may be some delay before we can import all groups. If you wish to have your transfer prioritized, the group transfer page allows you to pay an additional one-time fee of $200 (this will go live at 9AM Pacific Time, October 22). We welcome the opportunity to elevate the groups email experience for Yahoo users. We are committed to making the migration process as seamless as possible. Thank you for choosing Groups.io. Thanks, Mark Note: The original message specified changes in new free groups. Those changes have been rolled back. | 36236|36192|2019-10-24 10:18:40|Darren Bos|Re: vhb 3m tape| I'm late to the 795 party, others here have more experience if you search the archives, my windows are in but we are still on the hard finishing a refit.Â As a silicone it doesn't have the breakdown problems that some polyurethanes experience.Â The real trick with 795, or any other sealant really, is to make sure it is thick enough that it has sufficient stretch to accommodate dimensional changes with temperature.Â The trick would be to see if you can get the 3m tape thick enough give the thickness required by the 795.Â The Dow Corning Tech manual gives you the info you should need.Â The bottom line is that you need close to 1/4" thickness for the gap between the pane and the substrate.Â I've also heard the stories of ports being sucked out when a boat is rolled.Â Ours are held in by mechanical fasteners.Â The Dow Corning tech manual gives the info necessary to figure out if windows can survive hurricane force winds (which can also suck out windows) based on the sealant alone, but I have no idea how to figure how large the vacuum is on windows in a boat rollover.Â I also welded blind nuts in all around our ports so that we can put on storm shutters.Â A side benefit is that the lexan shutters also effectively give us double paned windows when we're somewhere cold. On 2019-10-23 2:27 p.m., aguysailing@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â Darren.... You get 2 years out of the Dow 795?Â Â Does it break down?Â Â I read that this stuff has been used on commercial buildings for years.Â I have several windows to re-bed on my BS 36 so I am going to try the 795 and the 3m.Â Interesting comment from Prairie Maid that taking on a submersion by a big wave could cause pressure inside and blow out a window that was not secured by screws to a wooden frame.Â That would make a guy think that 3m vhb tape would not be a wise choice.Â Gary | 36237|36192|2019-10-24 13:06:14|Brian Stannard|Re: vhb 3m tape|Dow 795 is a structural silicone. Very different from other silicones. It is the first choice of many manufacturers and re-munufacturers of hatches as well as the best product for adhering acrylic and polycarbonate without fasteners. On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:29 PM SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â If silicon in any form works for you, great. But I won't touch it & can only wish you the best of luck. With that stuff you gonna need it.Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android -- CheersBrian | 36238|36213|2019-10-24 14:29:19|Paul Thompson|Re: Origamiboats transfer|Hello,I've been a member of this group for many years now, even though not posting much the last couple of years... Anyway, Yahoo groups has come to it's long expected end. The only viable alternative is groups.io there really is no other place to go.So, could we please stop fucking around and get on with it? While we have been arsing around the price has doubled and the transfer que grown longer. I would not be surprised if the price doubles again as, as I said, it's the only place to go.I'm not the owner/moderator of either this group or origamiboats.io so I cannot get the process going. However I'm happy to help cover the costs, if necessary the full amount and then the membership can reimburse me once the process gets underway.So please let's get started.Paul ThompsonBTW Owners can contact me directly if they want to. On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 12:30 AM SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote: If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part.It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work.Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomesSent from Yahoo Mail on Android -- Regards,Paul Thompson | 36239|36213|2019-10-24 17:57:49|opuspaul|Re: Origamiboats transfer|I agree. It looks like groups.io is our only option going forward. We may not get the old files transferred in time but nothing stops us from using now. It doesn't cost anything as an individual so I would suggest everybody sign up.FWIW, I have just about every message saved on my computer since 2008 on my Thunderbird email program. It is over 16,000 messages and about 370 Mbytes. I don't know how to transfer it but will look into it. Maybe I could load it as an archive or zipped file if somebody tells me how.Cheers, Paul---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Hello,I've been a member of this group for many years now, even though not posting much the last couple of years... Anyway, Yahoo groups has come to it's long expected end. The only viable alternative is groups.io there really is no other place to go.So, could we please stop fucking around and get on with it? While we have been arsing around the price has doubled and the transfer que grown longer. I would not be surprised if the price doubles again as, as I said, it's the only place to go.I'm not the owner/moderator of either this group or origamiboats.io so I cannot get the process going. However I'm happy to help cover the costs, if necessary the full amount and then the membership can reimburse me once the process gets underway.So please let's get started.Paul ThompsonBTW Owners can contact me directly if they want to. On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 12:30 AM SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] wrote:If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part.It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work.Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomesSent from Yahoo Mail on Android-- Regards,Paul Thompson | 36240|36213|2019-10-24 18:04:14|Rick Jackson|Re: Origamiboats transfer|I wish I had more to offer than a few quid myself.. Not being all that computer savvy means a donation is the best I can do. Just let me know who, where, and how much. Rick On Oct 23, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:The urgent question is not throwing "a couple of quid" at this. The urgent question is making an offline backup of origamiboats. Right now it is on yahoo where apparently it is possible to make an offline backup. Do we know that is possible for groupsio? For sure? If not they have us hostage, forever.Would someone please figure out how to make one of the methods described here (or anywhere else) work:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269614MattFrom: SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 07:30To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part.It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work.Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomesSent from Yahoo Mail on Android| 36241|36213|2019-10-24 18:04:54|Dan|Re: Origamiboats transfer|Matt,I tried the github deal back in 2012 or 13. Could not get it to work. Plus you have install Python.There is a 14 day trial on this software and I can attest to it working.http://www.personalgroupware.com/ On Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 1:31:51 PM CDT, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: The urgent question is not throwing "a couple of quid" at this. The urgent question is making an offline backup of origamiboats. Right now it is on yahoo where apparently it is possible to make an offline backup. Do we know that is possible for groupsio? For sure? If not they have us hostage, forever. Would someone please figure out how to make one of the methods described here (or anywhere else) work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269614 Matt From: SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 07:30 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part. It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work. Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomes Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android | 36242|36213|2019-10-24 18:05:31|Dan|Re: Origamiboats transfer|Groups.io has an export function in the admin menus... see attachment On Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 1:31:51 PM CDT, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote: Â The urgent question is not throwing "a couple of quid" at this.Â Â The urgent question is making an offline backup of origamiboats.Â Right now it is on yahoo where apparently it is possible to make an offline backup.Â Â Do we know that is possible for groupsio?Â Â For sure?Â If not they have us hostage, forever. Would someone please figure out how to make one of the methods described here (or anywhere else) work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269614 Matt From: SHANE ROTHWELL rockrothwell@... [origamiboats] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 07:30 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer Â If we all throw in a couple quid that's the easy part. It's someone who knows how to figure the buttons & bullshit that will make it all work.Can we contribute with plastic or how to do it as I for 1 do not want to lose origamiboats in whatever form it comes, or becomes Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 36243|36192|2019-10-24 18:18:49|opuspaul|Re: vhb 3m tape|I used Sikaflex 295UV to bond the windows on my dodger. It has been about 6 years now and no problem but as others have said it is important to follow directions on any sealant and put it on at the right thickness to allow for movement. You also must paint over any sealant exposed to UV through the plexiglass or lexan. I use a flat black paint. The right Sika definitely works but I would try the Dow 795 next time. The Sikaflex is too expensive, especially with the necessary primer. Like seemingly all Sika products, it has a very poor shelf life.There was a boat sunk and a death in NZ earlier in the month that had to do with a knockdown and windows popping out on a Bavaria 47. To say the least, storm shutters are extremely important on poorly built yachts with large windows. This should never have happened. Interesting read....http://crew.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic/17252-fatality-northland/FWIW, it seems to be taking about 24 hrs for my messages to finally show on yahoo. They suck!| 36244|36213|2019-10-24 18:22:52|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboats transfer|I just got an email from Alex,site founder and administrator.Looks like he hopes to get at it in the next few days,download the works then post it all on another site. We will all breath a sigh of relief when that happens.| 36245|36213|2019-10-24 19:12:53|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| Further good news Brent and all OrigamiBoats members. Using a program Dan42101 put me onto, I have begun downloading all of the origamiboats group from yahoo. I have the Files and Photos sections on hard disk and spot checked them. The messages are still downloading, I will get back to you when I have them all and done some spot checks. I have experimented with exporting messages, and the process is a little odd, but it produces a text file -- easy peasy to write a little converter program to make them any format needed. I am optimistic by tomorrow I will have origamiboats in a zip file. Matt From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 6:08:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer I just got an email from Alex,site founder and administrator.Looks like he hopes to get at it in the next few days,download the works then post it all on another site. We will all breath a sigh of relief when that happens. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com on behalf of brentswain38@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 6:08:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer I just got an email from Alex,site founder and administrator.Looks like he hopes to get at it in the next few days,download the works then post it all on another site. We will all breath a sigh of relief when that happens. | 36246|36213|2019-10-24 19:33:02|opuspaul|Re: Origamiboats transfer|That program seems to be working well! I am now getting everything onto my computer. Many thanks.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Matt,I tried the github deal back in 2012 or 13. Could not get it to work. Plus you have install Python.There is a 14 day trial on this software and I can attest to it working.http://www.personalgroupware.com/| 36247|36213|2019-10-24 19:40:30|prairiemaidca|Re: Origamiboats transfer|Sure glad that we have people in our midst that have some computer skills. Thanks to all of you that are taking an interest and making things right.......Martin..... (Prairie Maid) | 36248|36213|2019-10-24 21:04:57|Steve Bennett|Re: Origamiboats transfer|I was also able to make a backup of messages, photos and files using PG Offline. I only have the demo version so have not been able to test much of the export functions. Messages: 35050 Photos: 1422 Files: 304 http://www.personalgroupware.com I do not know if PG Offline can download a list of users and their emails to let them know the site has moved so the Groups.io transfer may still be the best option to get a complete migration. I am busy with work and exams at the moment so donâ€™t have much time to work on transferring to a new site but will try to keep my offline backup current if it is needed and can contribute some money if we need to pay for Groups.io. Steve â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€” Steve Bennett steveben@... > On Oct 24, 2019, at 5:40 PM, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Sure glad that we have people in our midst that have some computer skills. Thanks to all of you that are taking an interest and making things right....... > > Martin..... (Prairie Maid) > > | 36249|36213|2019-10-24 21:16:21|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| Yes, the list of mail addresses is something we need. The messages have email addresses for some people. I am on message 22,500 now. If needed, email addresses can be harvested for everyone who posted. That is one thing we definitely need from Alex if we want a comprehensive list of valid addresses. Matt From: Steve Bennett steveben@... [origamiboats] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019, 21:07 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bentech APS Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboats transfer I was also able to make a backup of messages, photos and files using PG Offline. I only have the demo version so have not been able to test much of the export functions. Messages: 35050 Photos: 1422 Files: 304 http://www.personalgroupware.com I do not know if PG Offline can download a list of users and their emails to let them know the site has moved so the Groups.io transfer may still be the best option to get a complete migration. I am busy with work and exams at the moment so donâ€™t have much time to work on transferring to a new site but will try to keep my offline backup current if it is needed and can contribute some money if we need to pay for Groups.io. Steve â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€”â€” Steve Bennett steveben@... > On Oct 24, 2019, at 5:40 PM, losforsters@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > Sure glad that we have people in our midst that have some computer skills. Thanks to all of you that are taking an interest and making things right....... > > Martin..... (Prairie Maid) > > | 36250|36213|2019-10-24 23:37:35|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboats transfer| With the same program, I get: Messages (largest message #): 36,244 Photos: 1,422 Files: 327 More messages, more files? I will look at it more tomorrow. All downloaded now. Ok, so who has admin for origamiboats in groups.io? Matt >From: Steve Bennett steveben@... >Messages: 35050 >Photos: 1422 >Files: 304 >http://www.personalgroupware.com |